Fighting a narcissist for custody is usually a complex, painful, and grueling process that can take years. Tina Swithin joins Anne to educate and empower victims as they fight for their children in and out of court.

If you need support, learn about our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions.

Transcript: Fighting A Narcissist For Custody

Anne: Tina Swithin is joining me on today’s episode.I’m so honored that she’s willing to share her story with us.

Tina survived, a category five divorce hurricane, while acting as her own attorney in a high conflict custody battle that turned her family’s life upside down for 10 years. She took shelter from the storm by chronicling her journey in her now internationally recognized blog, One Mom’s Battle, with all odds against her. Tina’s battle ended on August 30th, 2019. When she successfully terminated her ex-husband’s parental rights.

She continues to champion children’s rights through her family court advocacy.

Welcome, Tina.

Tina: Thank you so much for having me. I’m absolutely honored to be here.

Dealing With Hidden Abuse

Anne: Tina. You are impressive. Your story and resources inspired me to believe that I could also be delivered. From the post-separation divorce abuse that my children and I went through. And we did. And I now teach women’s strategies. I used to get free in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop.

My listeners are all women experiencing hidden abuse in one form or another. So women who listen to this podcast are generally at the beginning of their journey in recognizing the abuse. For example, they may have found porn on a computer, or suspect their husband is having an affair. Women who listen to this podcast in general have found something about their husband and are trying to grapple with, what do I do now?

Although many women who use services at Betrayal Trauma Recovery are already divorced. But talking about women who are not thinking of divorce may be thinking, “Let’s try couple’s therapy, or maybe if I could get him a diagnosis, that would help.”

I’d love your perspective on what they need to prepare for, just in case, even if they’re not sure if they want to get divorced. Sort of like having a savings account, you know, you never want to lose your job, but you have a savings account just in case you do. Can we start there?

Recognizing Narcissistic Abuse

Anne: What do you wish you had known years before you even recognized your husband was a narcissist?

Tina: Absolutely. I relate so much to the foundation of your program. In my situation, it wasn’t porn, but it was a infidelity of sorts. When I had my awakening, that something was really off. I found out that we had debt over a million dollars, and he did that behind my back. Still, to this day, with all the information I have. I can’t. grasp that amount of money, how someone can go in debt to that degree. So I had my entire world pulled out from under me.

I ended up on a therapist’s couch, because the gaslighting was so intense, desperate to understand my role. Still trying to take ownership of issues and understand what I could do to fix him.

I still remember I had never heard the term narcissistic personality disorder. My therapist gave me those three words and had me read the description. I was relieved, because I thought, Oh my gosh, if I know what we’re dealing with. If there’s a label, if there’s a diagnosis, even though she couldn’t diagnose him, but she said, I think you’re a victim of narcissistic abuse.

Back then, I was a fixer, so in my mind, I was so excited to have something to work with.

Desire To Fix The Relationship

Anne: Yeah, that desire to resolve it is actually a form of resistance to abuse. It’s one of the many ways victims try to get to safety. So you were always working towards safety, resisting the abuse. By going to therapy, trying to resolve the problem. Resistance comes in different forms. And as we learn more effective strategies. We can actually start to gain some traction and start making our way to safety.

But yeah, it’s so common to think that like, “Oh, I can go to therapy with him and we can actually resolve this. We can get help.”

Tina: Yeah, I remember going home and telling him, “She said, you’re a narcissist.” We looked it up. Six months later, I understood she was trying to tell me: there is no fixing this. This is either your life or you leave. And it took me a while to grasp that. So I would have had time to plan, but back then, there were no resources for this type of situation. I’m really thankful for the work you’re doing, because it gives people information on how to prepare for something like this.

Fighting A Narcissist For Custody Begins

Tina: I don’t know if you can ever fully be prepared. But things that I wish I would have done differently. I’m getting a full financial picture of our situation. I was in the dark with finances, to the point where I had no idea how much money we had. We lived in a gated community, in a nice home.

If I wanted a car, we got me a new car. And I lived a life where I had no insight. Grocery money is in my checking account. But I am kept in the dark. So when our divorce and fighting a narcissist for child custody battle started. I didn’t know what to put on that paperwork. I truly had no idea where the money was, what was happening.

And for that reason, I started my new life and my new chapter with less than $200 to my name. I suffered financial abuse, which was a huge part of the abuse I suffered. Although during the marriage, I didn’t know that was financial abuse. I just thought he took care of everything. And when we ended up in the family court system, he hired an attorney.

I was not. I stood in court like a deer in the headlights. With no knowledge of the system, I had never been in court. I am very conflict avoidant by nature, and so it was a very uneven playing field. It’s not what you know, it’s what you can prove. And I wasn’t able to prove anything. I was at a huge disadvantage.

Documenting Abuse While Fighting A Narcissist For Custody

Tina: I would have also been documenting the issues directly related to my children, and how he affected them. I look back and want to hug myself 12 years ago, because in my naive mind, he had never participated in our daughter’s lives. He had never changed a diaper. He never cared to be involved. And so I assumed I would continue parenting, and he would have limited involvement. And I wouldn’t be fighting a narcissist for custody.

Well, that’s not what happens when you divorce a narcissist. He knew that the children were all I cared about. And so you can imagine that’s exactly where he went. But I had no proof. In reality, a lot of it doesn’t matter. If somebody stands up in the family court system and says, Hey, I’ve never been a parent. But I’m here, put me in coach, they’re going to give them the opportunity.

But I needed to document the things that were damaging to my children. The abuse, the emotional abuse, the short temper, things where his behaviors obviously affected my children.

Anne: So you hear the therapist tell you maybe he’s a narcissist. And you start thinking, okay, “Well maybe we can get help now.” I want to talk about this stage for a minute, because many women are trying to get help for their husband. Again, that’s a form of resistance, because you’re trying to make sure the abuse stops. I found that a lot of women in this stage don’t want to get divorced. Because divorce is not an option for them. They also don’t want education about divorce.

Loneliness & Seeing Who He Really Is

Anne: In my situation, I didn’t file for divorce, he did, and I was unprepared. So once we find out something serious about our husband, even if divorce isn’t on the table for us. Being prepared for what could happen is so important. Because once we see reality, once we see a narcissist, and begin fighting a narcissist for custody, we see who he really is,

We don’t know what he’s going to do. So in the Living Free Workshop, we actually have a section about financial safety. Even if women aren’t considering divorce, so they can be financially safe. No matter what’s going to happen. Can you talk about that time after the therapist told you her theory that he was a narcissist, and after you confronted him? And said, “Hey, she said you’re a narcissist, let’s try to figure this out.”

Tina: Two years before I ended up on that therapist’s couch, I had emotionally checked out. I knew things were really wrong. I remember sitting down with him one day and saying, I feel that if someone even gave me a hug right now, I would have an affair with them and that is not who I am.

Also, I never cheated on anyone in my life, but I was trying to describe to him how lonely I felt. I was married, but I never felt more alone in my life. Even when I was single, I have not felt this isolated and alone. It was around that time that I ended up in the therapist’s office. He refused to go.

Therapy & Gaslighting

Tina: So when she gave me those words that started my journey to enlightenment on the topic, I went home. He listened to what I had to say. And he said, that doesn’t sound like me. That sounds like my dad. And in my mind, I’m laughing going, well, he and his dad are the same person.

But at that point, he knew that I was ready to leave. And so he agreed to go to therapy with me. But here’s the funny part. He insisted it be a man, and it be a PhD. So we found this psychologist, and spent six months in what could be described as marital therapy. And it was at about the six month mark, where we unpacked everything and it was all out there.

And the psychologist said, “I really think you should do a psychological evaluation. I think there could be a personality disorder or something deeper that I’m not qualified to diagnose.”

That was the day my ex-husband said our marriage was over. We drove there in separate cars, and he called me afterwards. And said, “I just called the psychologist and told him that we’re done with marriage therapy and that it’s over. Because you have successfully manipulated him.”

The gaslighting, and I’m thinking, did I manipulate him? I was just sharing our truth. I remember feeling like I was punched in the gut during the marriage therapy. The therapist originally wanted to meet with me privately, then him privately, and then us both together.

Therapist Recognizes Husband’s Lies & Abuse Escalates

Tina: But his lies were so thick, and I was constantly saying, but that’s not what happened. This is what happened. To the point where the therapist said, “I don’t feel comfortable meeting with him alone, because I can’t trust anything he says. I need Tina here to verify the truth.”

Anne: That is so remarkable. In so many cases I hear about, the therapist believes him. That the therapist took this, stepped back and was like, “Mmm, he’s not telling the truth.” That is a good therapist right there.

Tina: Absolutely. I’m so grateful, not only for the one who originally planted the seed, but also for that one, because for me, it was validation, and most people don’t get that. Even in the world of therapy, there are so many therapists and psychologists who are not trained in narcissistic abuse. To where I wouldn’t have received that validation from most mental health professionals. So I’m incredibly grateful. That was the end of our marriage. And I start fighting a narcissist for custody.

The irony is that I wasn’t the one who filed for divorce. I wish it was just him going in and filing. It was actually him terrorizing me before he filed for divorce. I had gone to my sister’s house for the weekend, and he basically had moving vans ready. The second I pulled out of the driveway. He took everything I owned, completely stripped my house bare.

Bizarre Behaviors

Tina: It was the most bizarre chilling scene to walk back into. He had redecorated my bedroom to look like that of a toddler’s. It’s hard to even describe to this day, cleared my house of every material possession that I owned, so that he could go in and say that all happened during our marriage, and we have no assets. And then the next day he went and filed for divorce. Very sociopathic, is what a lot of professionals have pointed out to me.

Anne: That is so crazy. And so chilling. It reminds me of when my ex, we were married, had a protective order, and he came to remove all his stuff out of the house. I wasn’t there, but my dad was. My dad said it was the strangest and most bizarre scene. He said my ex acted as if he were going on a camping trip. Not packing up his entire life, and leaving his own home, his own children, and his own wife.

It was as if nothing happened and he was just packing up. For, you know, a couple of days. And it’s so chilling and weird. So I really empathize with that. You talked about two things you wish you would’ve known. So the first was to be more aware of the finances. And the second was to document the damage he’d done to your children because you would soon be fighting a narcissist for custody. You were forced into fighting a narcissist for custody.

Let’s talk about the divorce process itself. And how many bizarre things can use the actual divorce process as an extension of the abuse to continue abusing.

Post-Separation Abuse When Fighting A Narcissist For Custody

Tina: Right, and before we do that, I want to add, a third one. That I think, in reflection, in hindsight, that I would really emphasize is choosing your battles wisely. The narcissist will invite you to so many different battles. And when you engage in every one of them, it muddies the water for the family court system. So then It looks like you’re both high conflict.

So that would be the third one that I would add, in addition to the financial picture and documentation. Is really choosing your battles wisely and being aware of what the court cares about and what they don’t.

And then, to answer your question, I refer to it as post separation abuse, everything that happens from the day of your separation, and sometimes even leading up to the day of separation, the calculating and the manipulation that goes on behind the scenes. The post separation abuse that I experienced was by far worse than the abuse I suffered during our marriage.

Post separation abuse can be the smear campaigns. We live in a very small town, a small community, and we were both very active in the business community. He went on an absolute smear campaign in an effort to further isolate me and make sure that I had no friends or resources.

I mean, he told people that I had all these affairs. That was not true. He was concerned about my mental health around the children when I was fighting a narcissist for custody. That was not true, but when people know both of us as this golden couple in the community, and someone says something like this, you know, why would someone make that up? I think that’s what many people are left with, unless there was truth.

Grooming & Using Children as Pawns

Tina: Using my children as pawns, as weapons when fighting a narcissist for custody battle, was another difficult thing for me to grasp. Because during the marriage, I protected my kids. I sheltered them. I went to great lengths to ensure they were away from him whenever he was in a mood or whatnot.

And then their children are now in, and he said, “You know, you don’t have to take care of this person, and you have no control.” I had a hard time with that. And he knew the kids were the way to hurt me.

Anne: So many women I talk to when they’re considering separation will say something like, Oh, he would never do that. He told me it’s okay, and I think to myself, grooming, grooming, grooming, grooming, just wait a second. You’ll see a different side of him than you have ever seen before. When you haven’t separated yet, he has some modicum of control over you or power over you.

That’s what they thrive on. So post separation, they’re just desperately trying to get control back. Parts of them come out that you’ve never seen before . So what would you say to a woman who says that? Like, “oh, he’ll never do that. He’s a good guy. We’ve talked about it before. I’ve been the primary caregiver. He wants to do the right thing.” what would you say to her?

Tina: I tell people take the darkest example of who that person was during your relationship on his absolute worst day or his worst rage or the worst, day of abuse. That is who you are dealing with at a core level. And everything else is just a mask.

Setting Boundaries & Fighting A Narcissist For Custody

Tina: The family court system to some degree allows you to start having boundaries, whether it be, with communication or the parenting time schedule, they don’t like that for me. I thought during my marriage, a boundary was police tape law enforcement put up.

That’s the only thing I really knew about boundaries. I had none. And so for me to say, you know, you can call the kids between six o’clock and eight o’clock at night. That was a boundary. Something that small would spin the person. They’re triggered by boundaries so be aware of this when fighting a narcissist for custody.

They’re triggered by you having a voice, becoming empowered, and they have to continue to try to exert control. In the court system, they can keep that mask on very tight because it’s, it’s a high for them to fool everybody in the court system.

But that dark person, that rage that you saw at whatever point in your relationship, that is who you are dealing with outside of the court. And. The children become their primary weapons. I don’t care what they said during the relationship. All of it is fair game in their eyes to keep control. And sometimes that’s extreme.

Anne: So for women listening to this and considering divorce. And they’re thinking, wait a minute, Tina just said it gets worse. Wait a minute. Tina just said the abuse is, and I would agree, it’s always going to get worse before it gets better.

So you can think Tina and Anne said this. And they’re like, why would I get divorced then? Why would I try to start setting these boundaries when fighting a narcissist for custody? What would you say to them?

Teaching Children & Fighting A Narcissist For Custody

Tina: On any given day, I receive between a hundred and 500 emails. The most heartbreaking, heart wrenching emails I receive on any given day. Are from the moms who say, “20 years ago, we didn’t have this type of education. And I was afraid to leave, and now my children have grown, and they carry on the cycle either as the abuser, or as a victim of abuse. And my daughter is now married to an exact replica of my husband.”

So my opinion is even if I walk into that courtroom and get 50 -50 when fighting a narcissist for custody, First of all, I don’t believe there’s anything permanent in family court. I am very much of the mindset that, okay, great, if that’s my starting point, I’m going to chip away at it until I can put my head on my pillow at night and know that my kids are safe. And I know that triggers people and they go, oh my , I can’t imagine not having my kids 50 percent of the time.

When your kids are growing up in a situation where they don’t have any area to see what healthy looks like, it is more damaging, in my opinion. Even if I had my children 50 percent of the time to show them what healthy looks like, to show them what empowerment looks like, to teach them about boundaries, and to listen to their gut and instincts, and that their voice matters.

I used to teach my kids at a very early age, what red flags were. My daughter would come home from the playground and she’d say, mom, this girl did this, and it was a red flag.

When Your Children Have To Spend Time With Them

Tina: And so we don’t have the opportunity to teach our kids those things when we live in red flags. When that is your life. Yeah, you have the ability to show them a solid, healthy foundation, lead by example, and be their role model. You have way more power to protect your kids over the long haul than you would in that relationship.

Anne: Yeah, that’s important for women to think about when fighting a narcissist for custody. The example they are to their children is setting boundaries. I like to think of it as two fishbowls. The bowl he is in will always have cloudy water. And if you’re also living in that fishbowl, they’re not going to see things clearly, but if you live in a fishbowl with clear water. Then when they are in the fishbowl with you, everything will be clear and you’ll set a good example.

When they’re in the fishbowl with him, it will be cloudy, but then they’ll start to recognize, oh, the water over here is clean and the water over there is cloudy. And they can start telling the difference. In your book, The Narcissist Decoder, you put some of your X’s insane emails in there as an example. When you were fighting a narcissist for custody.

I did something similar to that in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Message Workshop. So after women finish all The Living Free Lessons, then they’ll have access to be able to enroll in the Message Workshop where for years I gathered abusive messages, both my own. And then also women that I helped. So those are real abusive messages in there. And then examples of how to respond to them and your book. The narcissist decoder is similar.

Abusive Messaging When Fighting A Narcissist For Custody

Anne: Your ex was an alcoholic, which you could prove, you could prove that he showed up late frequently. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Message Workshop includes examples from five different real life abusers. So you can see the different abusive styles in these messages. I’ve included my own X’s messages in the Message Workshop. My ex is an attorney, he wrote everything perfectly. He didn’t swear. He gaslit a ton. But it sounded so good.

Then in real life, he always showed up on time. He brought them back on time. So in addition to seeing what those examples look like in The BTR.ORG Message Workshop, enrollment isn’t available until after you’ve done the Living Free lessons, because the Message Workshop builds on that foundation.

Tina, from your perspective, what recommendations would you have for women in a situation with a cunning, but squeaky clean type narcissist? That does everything by the book when you are fighting a narcissist for custody.

Tina: That’s a really difficult situation, and it’s one that’s fairly common. You know, you have those who are much better at impression management, is what I call it.

The CEOs, the sales guys, the ones who, their livelihood depends on their image. Or they’re very savvy and would never put something in writing that’s going to give you the ammunition to show, you know, look, their words and actions are not in alignment. Something that I’m big on is profiling exactly who you’re up against.

Empowering Children

Tina: Time hop in your mind. If you time hop one year, three years or five years, is this person capable of parenting? Because what we know is that parenting can be selfless work. It can be tedious, especially when fighting a narcissist for custody. Where there’s not a lot of supply you can get from your kids when you’re doing the monotonous, day-to-day parenting stuff.

A lot of these people, what you’ll see is that over time, they’ll cancel on parenting time, or they have a big event that they go to, So sometimes it’s just chipping away at it from that angle. When the battle dies down and they’re not getting supply from constant court dates, a lot of them tend to phase out of the picture or they’ll start leaving the kids with other people.

I call the discarding of the kids, where, when you are fighting a narcissist for custody for 50-50. But then you’ll find they’re leaving your kids with their mom or caregiver. And so then you’re documenting and building your case from that perspective. It is very difficult to go up against somebody who is very savvy with what they put in writing. Those are things that are out of our control.

So if you have somebody who presents so well and is never going to give you what you need to hold them accountable in court, that’s where your focus and your energy becomes empowering your kids. Like I touched on a minute ago, um, you know, really strengthening them and empowering them. So they are resistant to gaslighting.

Toxic Relationships & Fighting A Narcissist For Custody

Tina: They know that they have boundaries that are physical, emotional, and psychological. Really creating labels for all of those things that many of us didn’t learn. So sometimes the focus just becomes empowering our kids to withstand something like this and to connect the dots on their own. I tell people you can empower your kids and teach them what healthy looks like and what toxic looks like without ever pointing the finger at their other parent.

And when they come home and connect those dots by themselves, it’s much more powerful than anything you could ever say. And in those things, situations. That’s where we see that preteens or teenagers recognize how dysfunctional the other parent is. They become their own empowered little warriors to say, “I’m not going this weekend.”

Anne: You mentioned the word toxic. When people say toxic relationship, the hairs on the back of my neck stand up . Same thing with high conflict divorce. These are words that imply that both of them have a problem. They’re not good for each other. Rather than recognizing there’s a toxic person, poisoning the relationship and the other person’s healthy, but she’s getting sick from his poison, when fighting a narcissist for custody.

Or the same thing with high conflict divorce, you’re literally just trying to tell the truth. You’re literally just trying to hold on to reality. And the reason why it’s such a huge fight and the conflict is so enormous is that there’s another person who will not live in reality. There’s nothing to do, but conflict in that situation. Can you talk about how the family court sees that and how to navigate that unfortunate neutrality bias? I’ll call it that, their bias toward neutrality rather than recognizing abuse.

Family Court System Bias

Tina: Right, we’re up against a situation in the court system where judges are not educated on domestic violence. In fact, I’ve been compiling some numbers. Many states have zero requirements for judges training in domestic violence. The ones with training requirements. It is minimal. My 15 year old daughter is more educated on domestic violence than most judges.

Just like my judge actually said to me, you chose this person to marry. You chose this person to have children with, it’s not my job to fix this situation when you are fighting a narcissist for custody. That was a huge gut punch. But, in hindsight, I’m actually big on radical acceptance and managing my expectations. So, as hard as that was for me to hear, I was glad he was open with his train of thought. Because then it allowed me to adjust. The direction I was going, and not look towards the court to be my savior or protector.

And most judges would never actually verbalize that, but I can guarantee you they’re all thinking that. You’re in a system that blames the victim. It’s important to know that going into the system so that you can adjust your expectations. The easy stamp or label for family court professionals to put on these cases is high conflict. And then the burden is on us to show that we are not part of the problem.

And that’s very much an ultra marathon to do that. But it’s critical that all of the decisions that we make go towards Showing that we are the healthy part of the equation, and it can take time. In my case, it was probably year six before the court really recognized that he was the problem.

Presenting Your Case When Fighting A Narcissist For Custody

Tina: And for me, that was keeping my communication. It was my goal to paint a picture and present it as the healthiest co parent they had ever seen. That was my authentic truth. If I had a healthy co-parent, I would be a lottery win for somebody in the co-parenting department. And so it was important for me to operate from my place of authentic truth. That came across when fighting a narcissist for custody.

In my written communication with him, in my presentation in the court, or with child custody evaluators. I remember going through my second custody evaluation and saying to the evaluator, I understand this appears to be a high conflict divorce. And I am somebody who can self-reflect to a fault. I am open to your feedback or expertise. If you see areas where I could be doing something different, I am a sponge. I will absorb that.

I will put it into play, because I’m truly at a loss. for how to continue navigating the situation where I’m fighting a naarcissist for custody. So those types of descriptors show that I am not part of the conflict. One of the missing components in the court system is data and research on this topic. Santa Clara University came out with a paper, and it has to do with high conflict individuals in the court system and the toll they can take on the system.

But also on these cases, and that is fantastic to start seeing that type of dialogue happening and research. Because other than that, you know, even when somebody goes through the court system, and maybe they’re so desperate to get a psychological evaluation that shows they’re dealing with a narcissist or someone in the antisocial personality disorder category.

Psychological Evaluations & Lack Of Education On Abuse

Tina: I see the desperation, and most of the time, they can’t get that. psychologist will not actually come out and diagnose them. They’re going to say the person has high traits. That’s not a diagnosis, and it does you no good. And then there’s a lack of education in the court system on what that actually means. So, if you are one of the rare ones that gets a solid diagnosis, now you’ve got a stack of papers that cost probably $20,000 and they still do you no good in the court system.

Because of that lack of research on this issue. Psychologists, a lot of them, understand narcissistic personality disorder as DSM. But there’s no deeper research that shows how these people affect children or co- parenting situations or the legal arena. And that’s what’s desperately needed to make changes and to educate the court system on what we’re all dealing with.

Anne: For someone who had a bad experience with the court fighting a narcissist for custody, or who’s in the middle of a court proceeding, who is just worried or scared or thinks, is this going to work or am I going to be worse off than I was before?

Do you have any words of wisdom for them?

Tina: Keep your tank full. It’s so easy to get beaten down by the system. I’ve had so many dark days to where I really questioned if I could keep doing this. The reality is, You never know what’s around the next corner. I have seen the most dire circumstances do a complete 180.

Settling Outside of Court

Tina: I have seen things that you would never believe unfold. Some of this, is when somebody is feeling so beaten down and failed by the system. And then you just never know what’s around that next corner. Our kids need us to keep our oxygen mask on. And 10 years ago, if you would have asked me, refilling my tank meant a day spa for a full day.

Now you could set my alarm 10 minutes before my kids get up to have some alone time and quiet and collect my thoughts and gratitude. It sounds so cliche, but during the darkest days of my battle, when I was fighting a narcissist for custody, that gratitude journal. was what kept me going, and sometimes all I could find grateful for was that the sun was shining or for my next breath.

If I had advice for people in general, in these situations, any time you can settle outside of court, it’s in your best interest. And sometimes that’s knowing what’s important to the other party, using it as leverage, getting in and out of the court system as quickly as you can. Because In the majority of these cases, especially when there’s no fight left, they don’t have to keep the mask on anymore because there’s no one watching from the court system.

And the excitement of fighting you is done, and that’s where the kids start to catch on that this is not normal. He is not healthy.

Custody Evaluations

Tina: And the kids start to take a stand. A lot of times when we see that happening, The kids are a threat to him. For image reasons, if he’s got a 13 year old that’s sulking and isn’t posing for the cute Instagram photos anymore because they’ve called him out, they know who he is, they become a threat to their image.

And so that’s where you’ll see them discard the oldest child or start returning the kids early or cutting their parenting time short. Usually, once the fight is done, this isn’t really what they want to do. If you’re appointed a family court professional to investigate. I would want to know every single thing I could about that family court professional to know what their biases are. For example, if a custody evaluator or a GAL was appointed.

Anne: When you say GAL, just for my listeners, that means guardian ad litem. So that’s someone who’s representing the children in that case when you are fighting a narcissist for custody.

Tina: Right, and some people in some states, it’s called minor’s Counsel, but yeah, it’s an attorney representing the child, and sometimes it’s not even an attorney, but that’s where it’s so important to know your system and to know everything you can about the judge, the Minor’s Council, GAL, the evaluator, because my strategy with one You know, custody evaluator would be completely different than it would be with the next custody evaluator.

Knowing Your Court Professionals

Tina: And there’s an example I use, there’s a courthouse in California. I’m not going to say which town it is, but, um, there’s two family court judges. If I were in courtroom, a presenting my case, I would present it one way. If I was in courtroom B, I would present an entirely different way, just based on what I know about the case and each judge.

One of those judges lost her son to a drug overdose, and so she takes addiction issues very seriously. In my case, my ex -husband was a raging alcoholic, so I would highlight and emphasize the addiction component and how it was affecting my kids in courtroom A, but I know in courtroom B, That judge doesn’t care about alcohol.

He’s probably a drunk himself. And so, you know, my presentation, depending on who the GAL is or who the evaluator or judge is, night and day different. And people don’t really put enough weight into that. You need to know who these people are, what biases they potentially bring. Maybe they’re very father focused and believe that dads should have 50-50, maybe they are more trained in the tender years where, you know, they know that a primary parent is important.

So it’s really difficult to say there is no one size fits all approach. It really comes down to who the professional is. The narcissist craves power. If you’re up for a custody evaluation or minor’s counsel, your job is to choose three. That you would be perfectly okay with and then submit that to the other side and give them the power and control that they crave to be able to make the final decision.

Choosing Court Professionals

Tina: I would ask your attorney about potential minor’s counsel that you could be appointed, and everything they know about each person. So you’ll make your own list of potential biases, the good, the bad, the ugly for each person. And then anywhere you can look online, do the research on everyone in your area, write out surrounding cities, and start educating yourself on who it could potentially be.

If you’ve done the background work on who the professional is, and you know, you get GAL A. When you are fighting a narcissist for custody, then it’s a no go, and that’s where you settle. I say strategy is so important in these situations, but this is such an emotional topic for us. It’s easy for me to sit here and say, you know, strategy, strategy. If my ex sent me an email right now.

It would completely trigger me and spin me, but overall strategy is important. That’s where keeping ourselves centered, getting to a higher vantage point so we can look at it through the lens of strategy and not emotion, and keeping our strategy fluid, because you never know when there’s going to be a turn in the road and you have to readjust. And go, okay, well, that wasn’t the direction I was planning to go, but I already had the other route mapped out.

And so now here are a few new options that present themselves. Remember, the court doesn’t know either of you when you are fighting a narcissist for custody. You know what a monster you are up against when fighting a narcissist for custody, and it’s an area where I reflect back. I was so focused on the light bulb moment I had recently had. I have just been given a term.

Proving Your Case

Tina: I know he’s a monster, and I’m so eager to share that with everyone. And looking back, it took me six years into my marriage to recognize what a problem this was. He doesn’t know either of us. And for all the judge knows, I could be a pathological liar. So keeping in mind, it’s not what you know, it’s what you can prove. And starting to scrub down what matters to the court in fighting a narcissist for custody, an attorney told me early in my battle that even liars and jerks are allowed to be parents.

So that has to factor into your radical acceptance equation, and knowing what’s important, but keeping in mind they don’t know either of you. And so presentation is critical until they get to the point where they start recognizing the problems in the other person.

Anne: It’s heartbreaking and frustrating, and I’m actually enraged. By the fact that abuse victims who have suffered so much, who are doing the right thing in fighting a narcissist for custody. The burden of proof is on them. When I went through it, I was infuriated. That I had all the information and couldn’t get the help I needed. It’s so triggering to talk about strategy. But also so important.

BTR Living Free Workshop

Anne: That’s why I put all the strategies I used in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. Because I thought everyone needs to know these, no matter what stage you’re in. The sooner women learn these strategies in fighting a narcissist for custody, the safer they will be throughout the whole process. No matter where you are in the process, no matter if you’re still married and you’re just considering what am I going to do.

Even if divorce isn’t even an option for you. These strategies will work no matter what situation you’re in. The workshop is amazing. It has a workbook and short videos. After each video, if you want to process the information deeply, there’s a question, and you can spend some time filling out that question. If you’re exhausted and want to run through the video super fast.

You can just type in there and push enter. And that will take you to the next video. Same thing with the workbook. You can take a lot of time to fill it out and process everything. Or you can just fill it out a tiny bit and move on. Or not fill it out at all, but make sure that you do have the workbook in front of you so that you know, what it entails. Some women watch all the videos first and then they’re like, that was really good.

And then they go through it a second time, so they can be like, okay, I’m going to learn these strategies on a deep level because I’m fighting a narcissist for custody.

Tina’s Advocacy Work

Anne: Tina you are amazing. Your work is amazing. You continue to do great work across the country. You helped pass Om’s Law passed here in my state. Kayden’s law passed in other states. Your advocacy is imperative to victim safety. And I appreciate you so much.

Thank you so much for sharing your story today.

Tina: Thank you so much.