Have you ever read a news article that describes a domestic abuser as a “good guy”. Can an abuser be a good person, really? Jane Gilmore, award winning journalist from Australia, talks with Anne Blythe, M.Ed. about how media coverage of domestic abuse doesn’t help victims recognize the truth.

If the media didn’t help you recognize your husband’s abuse, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY to get the support you need.

Transcript: Can An Abuser Be A Good Person?

Anne: I’m honored to have Jane Gilmore on today’s episode. She’s an author and award-winning journalist. And has a master of journalism degree from the University of Melbourne. Welcome Jane.

Jane: Thank you, lovely to be here.

Anne: I’ve invited Jane to talk about news stories, movies and TV and how the media portrays domestic abuse. When it comes to journalism, I’ve had some personal experience with this, because my friend, Leah Moses’s son, was murdered by her ex-husband, and Leah asked me to be the spokesperson for her in the immediate aftermath of that event.

And so I was on the news quite a bit. If you go to our YouTube channel Betrayal Trauma Recovery, you can see I’ve created a playlist for that. It’s called Betrayal Trauma Recovery in the news. A lot of the news outlets at that time, all of them actually reported it as a murder suicide, but they didn’t talk about abuse at all. Most reports said this murderer was a respected psychologist. They interviewed people who knew him, who said the abuser was a good person.

Knowing Leah’s story, he was one of the most abusive people. There were multiple DCFS reports for the welfare of her children. Police called multiple times. This was a classic domestic abuse situation. Why would any reporter put in print that an abuser is a good person? So the question of, can a murderer be a good person? Why is that even a question? Parth Gandhi was a murderer. He murdered his son.

There’s no more proof. Like if murdering your own son isn’t proof that you’re an abuser. There’s never enough proof for them, not in the media, not in the courts. Not anywhere.

The Impact Of Media On Society’s Perception

Anne: Instead, they said, it was the result of a prolonged legal battle. And some reports suggested that due to the prolonged legal battle, he was so upset or frustrated, it led to a breakdown. Rather than both the prolonged custody battle and the murder were due to his abuse. This is one of the things that can happen when fighting a narcissist for custody. So Jane, let’s talk about how the media reporting of abuse cases shapes society’s perception of abuse and abuse victims.

Jane: We had a case a few years ago where a man killed his wife, his daughter, and his three grandchildren. I think the youngest was three, and he was reported as a loving father. It was just obscene.

It developed this huge debate in Australia about journalists calling abusers goog people. I swear to you, debating whether it’s okay to call a man who killed his wife, his child, and his grandchildren a good guy. And women in Australia were just like, I’m sorry, what? He’s just killed his family. Of course, he’s not a good guy.

Anne: Why were they arguing for it?

Jane: Because one of the things journalists will do after something like that happens is they’ll interview people in the community. Like people in his church, people in his sports group, or people on his football team. And somebody inevitably will say, Oh, but he was such a great guy. They weren’t married to him or living with him.

They saw him once a week where he’s doing that good guy act. And that was all they ever saw. And journalists will say, well, it’s a legitimate thing to report because somebody said it. People used to say Ted Bundy was a great guy. Clearly he was not.

The Role Of Gender In Media Reporting

Anne: Yeah, objectively speaking, how do women know if their husband is abusive? No, it is incorrect reporting to say he was a good guy. Yes?

Jane: Or just because you can find somebody who says he was. It doesn’t mean it’s true. It’s not like journalists are sitting somewhere stroking a white cat and thinking of ways to excuse the terrible things that some men do to women. A lot of it happens without them knowing it. Particularly when it’s men that journalists feel similar to. If journalists can make sure that, it’s some other, he’s not a good guy like me.

He’s nothing like me, my friends, and the men I know. He’s the balaclava clad stranger that jumps out of the bushes at you. But most types of exploitation and abuse aren’t from strangers. Then that’s okay. But if it’s, and often is, somebody they think, Oh, that could be my friend. That could be my brother or even worse. That could be me. They’ve got to find a way to make it either not his fault. The abuser is such a good person who just snapped or she drove him to it.

Because it is so hard to believe that men we love, respect, and care about. Men who are our friends, our family, or our colleagues can be abusive.

Jane: But I can guarantee you, if you know, 10 men, you know, a man who has been abusive to a woman.

Anne: Yes.

Jane: And that is sometimes hard to face. It’s almost like it’s a not all men thing, they’re not defending all men. They’re defending themselves. Not all men are abusive. What they’re saying is you’re talking about me, and I’m not like that.

Can An Abuser Be A Good Person? The Reality Of Abusive Relationships

Jane: I find the ones that are the most defensive about that are the ones I’m looking at going, why does this matter so much to you? Why are you getting so angry about this? But that need to say about the abuser it’s not his fault, he’s a good person, he just snapped. He just lost control for a moment, but he’s actually a good guy. Is about saying men are not responsible for these things. Women drive us to it. And until we can all say, we are all responsible for our own choices.

I may not control how I feel, but I can control what I do. And if you pick up a gun and shoot somebody, that is a choice. And the only person responsible for that is you. If you get really angry and go, I’m going to go to the gym and have a session with a punching bag, or I’m going to run and run and run until I almost vomit, or I’m going to talk to my friends and let it all out. They’re all choices. Or I’m so angry that I’m going to hurt somebody, that is equally a choice.

Anne: Yeah, right now, the Addiction Recovery Industrial Complex likes to make the cause shame. He felt shame, he used pornography. Or because he felt shame, he had an affair. And I’m like, you know what? I feel shame, and I eat ice cream. What are you talking about? There are so many options. Shame has nothing to do with it. That’s not the cause of him choosing it. The cause of the abuse was his choice, he’s not a good person. They do good things to manipulate.

Patterns Of Abusive Behavior

Jane: And particularly with something like that, where it’s an ongoing choice. It’s not just that he chose it once, he’s choosing it again and again. And then he’s choosing to lie about it. And then he’s choosing to do it again, and then he’s choosing to lie about it again. That’s a pattern of behavior. You often don’t realize when you’re in that situation, because it’s like the frog in the boiling water.

It starts slowly, and you don’t realize it’s happening. You look back and think, how did I become this person where I feel responsible? Because my husband is gambling or drinking or watching or cheating. It’s my fault I’m doing something wrong. So I’m going to try and change so he will be better.

Anne: Many women have seen Sleeping With the Enemy or Safe Haven. So, they think this is what abuse looks like. He’s going to be screaming in her face, spitting, punching walls and locking her in her bedroom. Why do you think we don’t see depictions of emotional and psychological abuse often in the media? And I have also noticed that women depict psychological abuse, like in Gone Girl.

Jane: Remember that most of the media is controlled by men. So they’re not going to show these things from a woman’s point of view. They want to show a nuanced view of oh, but maybe he is a good person. Because they don’t understand it, and don’t want to.

Psychological Abuse In The Media

Jane: It’s not like there’s a huge crew of powerful white men in the media in any country in the world going. Let’s make women aware of the manipulations men do to keep them under control. So they don’t show the sort of things that are really corrosive, but not obvious. I remember talking to a woman who told me her husband could look at her, and she would be so overcome by fear and insecurity.

She said, I couldn’t think straight. Because all he would do was look at me. Once a year or so, he would do something terrifying. And then for the rest of that year, all he’d have to do to remind her, to put her back into that space of terror, was just give her that look. And what do you do? Do you go to the police and say, well, he looked at me like, right?

Anne: That’s right, absolutely. Can an abuser be a good person? When they want something, they can. Well, and that’s what’s really difficult for women in court cases. When they’re trying to say, look at these messages he’s sending me, they’re so abusive. And the court looks at them and they’re like, what are you talking about? To outsiders, it seems normal. But it’s not.

Jane: Yeah. I’ll never forget that woman. Because most of the time certainly to outsiders, he seemed like a good guy and had he killed her. And I honestly wouldn’t have surprised me if he had eventually. Journalists would have gone to his friends afterwards and said, what was he like? And they would have said he was such a good guy. And then the journalist would have reported it that way.

Can An Abuser Be A Good Person? Challenges In Recognizing Emotional Abuse

Jane: But this was a man who terrorized his wife, never physically hurting her. Just making sure that she always knew that he was the one in charge, that she had to obey him, placate him, be wary of him. And be stepping around his feelings all the time and looking after him. He would just sit back and not have to do anything. And it was so hard for her to explain to anyone what he was doing, or why she was so miserable. Or why she couldn’t leave, because it wasn’t obvious.

I’m not here to make a lot of excuses for the media, but that kind of manipulation is hard to show in a one and a half hour movie. Because it builds up over time. It’s about how it starts, then it stops, and then he’s sweet, then he’s cold. He’s lying, but all you’ve got is a gut feeling, You’re not sure what to do with it. And that constant back and forth and back and forth exhausting, unsettling weirdness is hard to show in a movie. Any woman who’s been in that will instantly recognize it.

And this is where women have the power to talk to each other. Because if I talk to a woman who’s in that, and I say, like when you wake up at three in the morning and feel sick. And your brain’s just spinning, spinning, spinning, and you’re trying to work out what’s going on. Am I crazy that I’m imagining this? Is he right? But I feel like this, but I don’t know what to do. And I’m too scared to tell anyone. Because I’m going to feel like a fool. An abuser can act like be a good person.

Support Systems For Abuse Victims

Jane: Any woman in that relationship will be, yes, I’ve done that so many times. It’s familiar, because the patterns of abuse are familiar. When we start sharing it, we can instantly recognize those stories.

Anne: Yeah, women find so much support and validation in a group, like our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. If you’re listening and relate to this. That’s such a great place to start. Talking with women who can validate your experience, because in terms of the media, it surrounds us all the time.

We might not recognize all the manipulation not to recognize abuse. Because an abuser can act like a good person. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take this free emotional abuse quiz.

Jane: I think it’s huge. We underestimate how much the things we don’t notice influence us. The most dangerous ideas are the ones that we don’t notice. The idea that women are responsible for abusive things that men do. How many headlines have you seen about the jealous lover, the jilted husband?

Anne: Even if they just say they were having an argument. As if the two of them were causing the problem, and it just ended badly. The abuser can make himself look like a good guy.

Jane: Yeah, cheating wife is common in a headline. And it’s all about saying that men aren’t responsible for what they do when they get angry or lose control of their emotions. Men can’t be held responsible for the actions they commit, because it’s women that drive them to it.

It happens a lot in headlines, but also in other kinds of media, like TV shows, movies, and video games, that we consume all the time, where you don’t even really notice it.

The Double Standards In Self-Defense

Jane: Once you’ve seen something, you can’t unsee it. When you start to look for it, suddenly it’s almost everywhere. Women are responsible for men’s choices. We drive them to it. We make them so angry, so jealous that they just lose control and then it’s our fault.

But actually, if you think about it, the reverse would never be true. And it’s not true. On the rare occasions that women commit violence, and it happens. They’re monsters. They’re evil. There is no excuse. But we don’t talk about men in the same way.

Anne: That’s evident with self defense. For example, if another man comes into another man’s house and shoots the guy in self defense. Everyone’s like, yeah, self defense, no problem. But if a woman is being raped and shoots him, people are like, she committed murder. Apparently some people think an abuser can be a good person.

Jane: Oh, definitely, absolutely. If a man kissed another man, like a sexual kiss, and the man being kissed punched him in the face. Most people, yeah, sure.

If a man wants to kiss a woman who didn’t want to be kissed, and she reacted with violence. Whoa, why are you like that? If you reverse it and go, would that still make sense? If a woman is being attacked, and she fights back, and she’s to blame for fighting back. Violence is always a choice, no matter what you’re told. Violence is always a choice.

If the person who made that choice is not responsible for it, in the way it’s depicted, then something’s a bit off. And then again, you reverse it and you put a woman in that situation. Would she be held responsible for making that choice? Yes, she would.

Can An Abuser Be A Good Person? Violence As A Choice

Jane: Would you ever say, a woman who forced sex on a man had no choice? He flirted with her, was wearing tight little pants and was smiling and winking at her. He drove her to it, and she was so overcome by lust that what else could she do? It sounds ridiculous when you put it like that, right?

Anne: Right.

Jane: That kind of thing would be, well, yeah, that can happen. Men lose control of themselves. And if she flirted with him and teased him, and wore a skimpy little top and showed off, well, what did she think was going to happen? He flirted with her, took his t-shirt off. He showed off all his muscles. What did he think was going to happen? It’s so ridiculous that it’s almost funny.

If you can do that juxtaposition and it becomes ridiculous, then you know that something is going wrong there because women are not responsible for men’s choices. We have to stop infantilizing men. Adult men are as responsible for their choices as adult women.

Think about how they behave in front of other people? Almost 99% of the time, an abusive man is not violent emotionally or physically in front of other people. He does it in private, which means he can control it, which means it’s a choice.

Anne: When he wants to, he can act very loving, he can act very caring, an abuser can act like a good person. So he knows how to do it.

Jane: Yeah, when we’re talking about the media talking about violent or abusive men. It’s done through crime and court reporting. Somebody’s been arrested, in court, charged, the police are investigating. The court process is based on this idea of innocent until proven guilty.

The Presumption Of Innocence In Relationships

Jane: I would never want to mess with that, because it’s so important when you’ve got the power of the state against a single individual, you need to have some way of balancing that power. And that’s why we have the presumption of innocence. But that’s in a court setting, and the reason we have that presumption of innocence is because the state can incarcerate you. But in a relationship, that’s not what you’re talking about.

You’re talking about two people who should be equal, so the presumption of innocence doesn’t apply there. You’re not talking about the entire power of the state, the police, the DA, and all the people who can investigate and punish you. So the presumption of innocence assumes the man is innocent and the woman is lying. That’s bad in a court situation. It’s necessary, but bad. And any victim who’s been in court will tell you that assumption means we’re assuming you’re lying.

So all I need to do is get reasonable doubt about whether you’re lying. So I need to make you a liar. And all this is reported that way in the media. He’s innocent until he’s proven guilty. She’s probably lying, and that’s the basis of all this reporting. And then that translates into relationships. I’m innocent until you’ve proven I’m guilty. You’re probably lying. So all I need to do is convince you or other people that you’re lying, or that there’s even a possibility that you’re lying.

And therefore, that means I’m innocent. And that doesn’t work. It’s not about proving something. It’s about how I feel. I feel scared, unsure, and insecure. I feel like I can’t trust you, like I’m not safe with you. Abusers are good at manipulating people into thinking they are a good guy.

Expertise Of Abuse Victims

Jane: Because you don’t need to prove how you feel.

Anne: Another issue with the media, I actually experienced it frequently. Victims are apparently not experts about abuse. That male therapists or male social workers or someone male is an expert. She just thinks she’s an expert, because she’s talked to all these women yada, yada, yada, they’re just yakking.

But these women don’t understand abuse, and they’re actually endangering true abuse victims. Who are apparently some nebulous category of victims who aren’t us. I’ve heard that quite a bit. Can you talk about how the media dismisses that abuse victims are the most expert on abuse?

Jane: Yeah, it’s based on that idea that women lie and can’t be trusted. Because abusers are good at looking like a good person. That permeates much of the culture. Women lie about abuse, to get custody of their kids, to turn people against him, and for all kinds of reasons. Actually, the people who are doing this work, who are there on the front lines, say it almost never happens. It’s not that it never happens. But 99% of the time, if a woman tells you she’s being abused, she’s been afraid and ashamed to tell somebody for a long time.

And when she finally comes out with it, it’s a big deal. She’s doing it because she’s reached the point where she can’t not anymore. I think what’s happening when the media depicts that like women just make those claims up all the time, and it’s really easy. It is not easy. You talk to any woman in an abusive relationship, and she will tell you how hard it is to tell someone else what’s going on. It’s excruciatingly difficult.

Can An Abuser Be A Good Person? The Amber Heard & Johnny Depp Case

Jane: Think about the options. If a woman tells you that a man is abusing her, you can believe her and be wrong, or you can not believe her and be wrong. And if believing her and being wrong just means you say, I believe you. Do you want to talk about it? What help do you need? Like, where’s the harm in that?

But if she’s finally told you the truth and you say, oh, I don’t believe you, because he’s such a good guy. There’s a lot of harm in that. So that belief that women would lie about it, Amber Heard and Johnny Depp, was where I saw that just explode.

Anne: Yeah, that was insane.

Jane: That belief she was lying, and I was looking at that just going. What do you think she’s getting from this? Look at what’s happening to this woman. She is being eviscerated by billions of people online, for nothing.

Anne: They kept saying like, she’s doing it for like attention or something. I was like, no, she does not want to be doing this right now. When people automatically think you’re lying, they believe the abuser can be good.

Jane: Nobody wants billions of people coming after you online. If you’ve ever been on the receiving end of an online storm. It’s awful. People say, oh, just turn your phone off, sure, okay. There are five people in a room right next to you, and they’re talking about you. Walk away, don’t stand there, and try and hear what they’re saying. It’s not good. It’s not right. You know, it’s damaging, but it’s human.

Public Perception & Misogyny

Jane: As much as you can say, I will just turn my phone off. Don’t participate in the world, hide yourself from the world. What’s going on with that? Should women hide themselves from the world because a man’s abusing them?

That idea that billions of people say things about you. And after coming out of an abusive relationship, you have the strength, you have the confidence to say, well, it doesn’t matter what people say about me. I know who I am. I think it’s asking a lot of a woman who’s coming out of an abusive relationship to immediately have that kind of strength.

Anne: Well, and then just be abused by everybody.

Jane: Yeah.

Anne: And apparently it’s impossible to be believable. There’s always a reason not to be believed. And to believe that the abuser is a good person.

Jane: Yeah, it’s the perfect victim myth. We’re going to keep moving the hoops, and we’re going to keep those hoops on fire. We’re going to have five of them, and you’ve got to jump through all five.

Anne: Right, because Amber Heard’s human, she’s not perfect.

Jane: Yeah.

Anne: Every little thing, or even big thing, that she’s done that wasn’t great. That maybe she shouldn’t have done was apparently evidence that she wasn’t abused. I’m like, no, no, no. It was awful. We even had so-called abuse experts, which really bothered me to come out and say, in this case, she’s the abuser. Did you hear so-called abuse experts saying that?

Secondary Abuse By The Court

Jane: Yeah, that case was so huge and all over the world. It always astounded me that the court case in the UK was not a jury, but a judge found he was abusive, sexually, emotionally, and physically abusive. That one was kept very quiet, and that one disappeared out of the media almost immediately. Oh, he’s guilty, oh, let’s not talk about that. But then suddenly we’ve got all these people saying she’s a liar, and it’s her fault, and he’s just a poor victim.

That went global. And again, it comes back to the idea that too many men can see themselves in it. Not all men by any means, but too many men know that there have been times when they have not been good to the women in their lives. And have made her responsible for the bad choices they’ve made. And it almost seemed like the people who were defending Johnny Depp were not defending him. They were defending themselves.

Not his fault, meant it’s not my fault. She’s a liar, and was not necessarily talking about Amber Heard. They were talking about the women who said. You did the same thing. You’re lying, making it up. You’re just trying to get attention, because apparently having the whole world hate you is the thing that most women want.

Anne: No one recognized, which was bothering me, how everyone was how abusing an abuse victim, abused by the court. So she’s experiencing these multiple, multiple levels of trauma, extreme trauma. And they’re just thinking, oh, it’s just her court case, rather than this is torture. The abuser gets away with everyone thinking he is a good person.

Jane: And it was deliberate. He chose that.

Anne: Yeah, to punish her.

Can An Abuser Be A Good Person? Even Other Victims Didn’t Believe Her

Jane: Yeah, they didn’t go to court by accident. He chose that. That choice was part of the abuse.

Anne: Absolutely, You can see the court system believing the abuser is a good person.

Jane: And it’s really, really, really common for abusive men to use the court process and the police as part of their abuse.

Anne: Absolutely, yeah, that was disturbing. When I would say to other so-called abuse experts, excuse me, and they’d be like, no, it’s obvious that she’s the abuser in this case. I just, I don’t know, it was very hard, obviously much harder for Amber Heard. Clearly, we have a big TikTok following and a big Instagram following, and we did a video in support of Amber. And I don’t know if we’ve ever gotten so much hate from victims, from listeners.

And I thought, what? You’re having a hard time because people won’t believe you. And then you won’t believe her. It showed that societal misogyny is so thick that even victims themselves have a hard time seeing through it.

Jane: As you say, victims of abuse, women who have been abused themselves said, no, no, no, she’s the abuser. It took me by surprise how many women were so angry about her. I was trying to work out what it was. Because I was really disturbed by the way many women responded.

And I think they couldn’t see themselves in her. She looks like this couldn’t happen to her. She looks like she’s got power and choices, and she could have just walked away. And they forget that that kind of abuse can genuinely happen to anyone. Just because she’s successful, rich, and beautiful doesn’t mean she’s not a person.

Abuse Of Powerful Women

Jane: And although abusers often deliberately prey on vulnerable women. They will search for women that they can manipulate. Wealth and beauty, and youth don’t protect you from that. Because those techniques of abuse and the manipulations that an abuser will use to make you feel small and weak, helpless and responsible. They work on anyone.

Anne: Some abusers intentionally seek out powerful women to abuse, because they’re capable. They can manage a lot. I know of a woman who is an extremely smart, powerful, awesome pediatrician. And she was targeted by a man who was like, oh, she can support me financially. Because she’s so competent, she can manage my whole life and groomed her to do that.

She didn’t realize that was happening. She thought she was a helpful partner. So, to think this smart, capable, put together woman couldn’t be an abuse victim. That’s just not the case. .

Jane: Sometimes those women can be even more vulnerable, because that’s not how they think of themselves. They will always think of themselves as having power and having choices .

So this couldn’t possibly happen to me. Therefore, it must be my fault. I need to work harder, do more, and manage this. I need to find a solution to this. And so again, they take on that responsibility. And sometimes those women can be easier to put in that position, because they’re so used to being responsible for themselves and even taking responsibility for other people.

Media’s Portrayal Of Abusers & Victims

Anne: Just like the media portrays abusers as a certain type of man. They also portray abuse victims in a certain way. I don’t want to say it’s worse for capable women, but when they go for help, when they’re like, Hey, I’m being abused. They might tell their clergy or a therapist or someone, and people are like, whatever. Like you’re very direct. Like, no, that can’t happen to you, because you’re not the type of person who would be abused.

I love Frozen for this reason, because Hans, Hans of the Southern Isles. He’s clearly an abuser, but he looks like a good person. And they sing that song about eating each other’s sandwiches.

And Anna is smart. She’s strong. She’s capable. And she’s still a victim of his abuse. And in the end, he actually looks evil. In real life, it’s not a movie. So he’s still going to look like Hans of the Southern Isles to everybody else. He’s still going to look like that good guy.

Jane: And it’s really hard if you’re used to thinking of yourself as successful, in charge, strong and capable. It is hard to admit that you’ve been manipulated and abused. How could I let this happen?

I can’t be that idea of the ideal victim. I’m not that. So therefore, this can’t be happening. And the ideal victim, the perfect victim, again, it’s all the spinning hoops on fire in five different directions. Nobody is the perfect ideal victim. Nobody is the deserving victim. If somebody is abusing you, they are abusing you. And you don’t have to prove that you didn’t deserve it.

Abusers are Good at lOoking like they are A Good Person? Positive Media Representations

Jane: Nobody deserves to be abused, and nobody is invulnerable. It doesn’t say anything about you. It says something about the person who chooses to do that to you.

Anne: I just have this thought because we’re talking about the media for listeners today. If you have thought of a movie, TV show, or news article that shows this, write it in the comments below? Let’s gather up a bunch of examples from all over the world of movies, TV shows, or news articles where you’ve seen he was a good guy, and we see these dynamics play out. I’d love to hear your thoughts about your observations from the media and how it’s affected you.

Jane: It would also be interesting in those comments, and I will come in and look at them. Sometimes, we do this with kids. Tell me TV shows or movies where you’ve seen a really, really good relationship. A happy, equal sharing, respectful, consensual relationship shown in a TV or movie.

Talk about a good one. I don’t know if any of your listeners have seen Gilmore Girls, but one of the ones that came up was Sookie and Jackson as a relationship where you can squabble and you can disagree, but actually it’s equal, fun and kind.

Anne: One’s, it comes to mind on Netflix, there’s a Lost in Space, the new version with Toby Stevens.

Jane: Okay.

Anne: Their relationship seems healthy to me. I could be wrong. And then an Australian classic, Bluey.

Jane: Oh, yes.

Anne: I love Bluey. I’m like, oh my word, if all children would grow up on Bluey, I think we would be okay.

Jane: Yeah, we’re proud of Bluey down here. It’s the gift we gave the world.

Encouragement For Abuse Victims

Jane: But I would love to know where the real dynamics of abuse are actually shown, because that’s rare. Like you, I’ve spent more than a decade working with this stuff. Writing about it, researching it, talking to people who’ve been through it, my own experiences of it. And I guess the thing I always try to remind people is that you are not alone, you’re not making this up. You’re not pretending, it is that hard.

And the reason we do podcasts like this and all the other things that we do is because we know that. Help is there, and it will get better when you can find the strength and you can. But don’t ever let anyone tell you that it’s your fault or that this should be simple, or why don’t you just leave, because it’s always harder than that. It’s not impossible and it can be done, but don’t ever underestimate how difficult it is. And there are people who know that, will understand and support you.

Anne: Getting to emotional safety from an abuser who is good at looking like a good person,one small step at a time.

Jane: Right.

Anne: We’re here for you. I’m so grateful Jane came on today. Thank you so much for spending the time to talk with us, Jane.

Jane: Thank you so much for having me on and it was such a great conversation.