When counseling for cheating focuses on what a wife could have done differently to stop her husband’s betrayal, it misses the real issue: her husband made choices in secret and withheld reality from her.
Here are five things a therapist or counselor may ask you to do, that you’re probably already doing.
5 THINGS A THERAPIST MIGHT SUGGEST, THAT YOU’RE Probably ALREADY DOING
1. If the therapist suggests the way forward after his cheating is for YOU to be more SELF-REFLECTIVE
You may have spent years asking yourself:
“Am I too critical?”
“Did I communicate that badly?”
“Am I being unfair?”
“Should I be more patient?”
“Do I need to change my expectations?”
Self-reflection can be healthy in a safe relationship. But in an abusive or deceptive relationship, self-reflection becomes a trap when your husband or counseling for cheating uses it to keep the attention on your “faults” and off of his choices.
2. IF THE THERAPIST SAYS THERE’S NO WAY TO HEAL YOUR MARRIAGE IF YOU KEEP SCORE, WELL…
You may have chosen grace over confrontation. You may have tried not to bring up the past. You may have avoided keeping a mental ledger of who did what, who apologized first, who sacrificed more, or who caused the most pain.
And yet, he still lied.
A wife can be generous, forgiving, and non-punitive, and her husband can still exploit that kindness. In fact, men who live double lives often benefit from a wife who keeps giving them the benefit of the doubt.
3. IF THE THERAPIST SUGGESTS YOU LOOK FOR SOLUTIONS “TOGETHER“
Many wives are already the solution-focused, repair department of the family.
When there is conflict, they look for the book, the podcast, the therapist, the date night, the conversation starter, the prayer, the apology, the new schedule, the softer approach, the better system.
They try to make home peaceful and emotionally safe for everyone.
If a husband is lying about cheating, using inappropriate media, emotional affairs, financial betrayal, or other secret behaviors, then the wife does not have the information she needs about the real problem. The equation is unsolvable as long as he’s lying.
4. IF THE THERAPIST SUGGESTS YOU RE-COMMIT TO THE MARRIAGE
At the first sign of trouble, most wives lean in and try harder.
But trying harder does not cure his entitlement. Being more available does not cure his secret behavior. Being more patient does not cure his dishonesty. Offering more love does not cure his emotional abuse.
A wife can pour herself into the marriage until there is almost nothing left of her, and still not fix his intention to hide the truth.
5. IF THE THERAPIST SUGGESTS THAT YOU SHOULD ASK IMPORTANT QUESTIONS
This is one of the most painful parts for many betrayed wives. When a counselor or someone else says, “Why didn’t you say something,” or “Maybe you should have communicated more clearly about your expectations,” it can feel like you’re being betrayed all over again.
The truth is that most women did.
They checked in.
They brought up concerns.
They asked about inappropriate material use.
They asked about the phone.
They asked about the distance.
They asked about the late nights, the mood shifts, the secrecy, the intimacy problems, the strange feeling in their gut.
And their husbands used these concerns as another opportunity to undermine her instincts and reality.
TRANSCRIPT: WHEN COUNSELING FOR CHEATING MAKES HIS CHEATING “OUR PROBLEM”
Anne: I have Hannah, a member of our community on today’s episode. Welcome, Hannah.
Hannah: Hi Anne. How are you?
Anne: Thank you so much for coming on today. Why don’t we start with your story.
Hannah: Yeah, I am about a year out from finding everything out. That changed my life forever. I was married for about 12 years. We had five kids. I had known him most of my life. We were best friends. We’re Christian. I was very active in our church community, and even in high school I was involved in youth work, and I was a huge anti-porn advocate. My husband knew all this about me. We talked about this kind of thing nearly daily, as we’re also raising kids, just like how we protect them from the world.
We prayed every day together, and then one day he decided to drop the bomb on me, that he had been lying to me since before we were married, that he had been watching porn, and that he had also had a four year affair with a colleague. So he decided to come clean to me.
I was completely blindsided. Over the last year, I’ve been realizing the subtle ways, like he was a very good liar, and I do feel like he had this complete double life. I was really grateful to find Betrayal Trauma Recovery, because it was the only resource I found online that didn’t make me want to throw my computer or phone across the room. Because everything was very much just talking about my part in it, which to me felt so wrong.
IT WAS A LIE EVERY TIME
Hannah: I knew I wasn’t perfect, what human being is? I knew that throughout our whole marriage, I had been self-reflecting. I had been not keeping score. Anytime we had any kind of conflict, I was all about finding solutions. I was always leaning into our marriage and trying harder. Also when it came to the betrayal, the pornography use.
A lot of resources say maybe you didn’t ask, or maybe you were naive. I had asked all the questions. We had all the conversations. I had been checking in all these things, and it was just a lie every time.
So to be met with what was your part in it? Or anything like that made me angry right from the start. And I just knew that this isn’t something that I contributed to somehow. And at that, Betrayal Trauma Recovery, that’s definitely how you frame things. This is abuse. Abuse is one sided. That’s my story in a nutshell. It has been an awful year, and I still most days can’t believe this is my life.
That I had this husband, who I thought we were soulmates, best friends. I thought I knew him so well. I’ve been coming to this realization that I could have just gone down to the nearest bar and been like, you, sir, you’re attractive. Let’s go get married. And it would’ve been the same outcome. Because I did all the things. We talked about this stuff constantly. I think people think, he was doing this thing and it’s not a big deal.
WE TALKED ABOUT PROTECTING OUR MARRIAGE
Hannah: Like it was his private life that he kept private. No, you don’t understand the amount of lies, blatant lies, subtle lies, lies of omission, but also the things that we would do together. Like, we sit down to watch a movie. We weren’t like the average couple who’s just oh, put on HBO. We don’t watch HBO, we look up every movie before we watch it, because we’re protecting our marriage, protecting our family. From all the trash out there. Our kids have minimal screen time, they’re not on devices, so that’s exactly the type of thing we’re trying to protect them from.
So for him to come out and be like, “Oh yeah, by the way, for our entire marriage, I’ve been watching pornography, and I also had a girlfriend for a huge chunk of our marriage.”
Anne: Why now? He’s been lying to you the whole time. I’m sure that’s crossed your mind.
Hannah: Oh, it has. I can tell you what he says versus what I think.
Anne: Probably a lie, right? Since he is lied about everything else.
Hannah: A very close friend of mine called me up and told me that she had discovered that her husband had been watching pornography.
So I was very upset and obviously like always I went to my husband. And the thing that gets me about that is, it’s not the first time this has happened. I would read some horrible story on the internet, in the communities that I was in. And I’d go to my husband and be like, oh, this poor woman, she just found out she has cervical cancer.
MY HEART BROKE FOR THEM
Hannah: ‘Cause her husband cheated on her, these types of stories. So that alone isn’t enough, because it’s not like it was the first time, but it was someone very close to me. And also close to him.
Anne: I wonder if, because it was someone really close to you. He thought, well, maybe this is the time to tell her because this other person did it.
Hannah: So I was like talking to him every evening when he came home from work about this couple. My heart was breaking for them. I was in constant contact with my friend, checking with her, wanting to spend time with her. So I was actually planning to go away that weekend to spend the weekend with her. And then he dropped the bomb on me before I left.
Anne: Maybe it was to stop you from going.
Hannah: It could have been.
Anne: Because, these liars don’t think too much about long-term consequences.
Hannah: Looking back, something that haunts me a lot is the fact that in those weeks leading up. He asked me, “What would you do if?”
I was obviously caught off guard. I mean, excuse me? Are you trying to tell me something? Like, why would you say that? I told him, “I would pack up the kids, and I would go to my mother’s, and you would maybe never see us again.”
I didn’t mince words. Funny story, my reaction, I was paralyzed. I couldn’t pack up any kids. I was trashed, laying on the floor, not eating or sleeping, not able to drive a car. In my mind, I wanted to leave, but physically could not.
WHY DIDN’T HE TELL ME THEN?
Anne: I had that same thing where I told my husband that. And then found out I couldn’t do it. I’ve come to believe now. This is 10 years post-divorce, that he wanted me to do that. He was like, “Okay, I’m gonna tell her and then she’ll leave.” And because I didn’t. Then, at least in my situation, he was like, “Oh, shoot, now I have to act like I am repenting.” Because he didn’t know what to do when I didn’t do the thing he wanted me to do. Because the same thing, he could have told me a million other times, why did he tell me right then?
Hannah: There were so many moments when I asked him explicitly. Have you done this? Would you do this? Where I asked to check his phone. I felt like a terrible person. I have this amazing, good, trustworthy husband, and I’m being this paranoid, crazy person. And him being like, sure, of course. But obviously sweating bullets, because he knew that there was a possibility that something could happen.
So when he did tell me, I couldn’t drive, I couldn’t sleep, but the next morning I made him drive me to my sister’s house. I said we’re leaving right now. I had all these other health issues at the time that I physically can’t drive.
I think that in his mind he was so deluded, he still thought it was somehow going to be okay. But for me, it was like the whole unraveling of everything.
Like any marriage, we’d had our struggles and then to find out that this was going on underneath it all the whole time, for me it was very much a, what’s left?
SYMPTOMS THAT HE DIDN’T CARE
Hannah: The only thing I was clinging to in this marriage was that you’re this good, faithful, loyal man who’s trustworthy and honest. And turns out you weren’t even that. And I’ve been making all these excuses. He’s tired, he works so hard. The honeymoon phase is over. This is just marriage. So we’re not crazy in love anymore, but we deeply love each other. That’s what I was thinking. And meanwhile, these were all symptoms that he actually didn’t care.
Anne: Oh, that’s so heartbreaking. Before you found out, had you been to couple therapy, had you done marriage intensives?
Hannah: There were moments in our marriage where I checked in with him. “I feel like we’re having a lot of petty fights. Are we okay? I feel like you’re ignoring me a lot, like what’s going on?” There were times when I felt like it was getting to the point that, okay, I think we need counseling.
And I said that to him, and I asked for it, and his reaction was, no, absolutely not. That didn’t surprise me, just because I feel like that’s the way both of us were raised. Our parents think it’s good for someone else, but they’re not gonna do it. “We can get through this. We don’t need some professional meddling in our lives.” Then it would be good for a while, now that I’ve reflected on all these years. I can see it more clearly that he would avoid me and treat me poorly.
Then if I started to question it, he would love bomb me and make it okay. He would bring me flowers or he would say something to make it feel all better.
I WAS LOW MAINTENANCE
Hannah: I was like relationship low maintenance. I didn’t need him to be Prince Charming all the time. He just had to come home and tell me he loved me and that everything was good, and I just believed him. I would let it go. I thought we went on dates and did things to invest in our marriage, but now that I look back, I planned it, or I nagged you to plan it. And it never was like, “You’re planning these things for me, or for us.”
We actually went to marriage retreats to reconnect. But now looking back at that, it’s just cements the betrayal even more. We’re sitting there talking all day about our relationship. And what we can do differently and how we can improve. And you’re just sitting on all this information. These are all the reasons you’re passive aggressive, angry, a little bit volatile, all these things. That explains a lot. I would feel that way too if I was hiding this entire secret life from you. I would be anxious and irritable.
Anne: Mm-hmm.
Hannah: We never did any kind of counseling. I thought it was communication. I think I am a terrible communicator. And I think you need to work on your communication too. I just leaned in, I read books, did different things. The typical marriage advice is, don’t keep score and forgive your spouse. You shouldn’t be dwelling on their faults. That’s the type of thing I was doing. Which now makes me feel like I’m a giver, he’s a taker. It made me a very easy target, constantly giving into the relationship.
PEOPLE IN HEALTHY RELATIONSHIPS DON’T NEED HELP
Anne: I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately, that people in healthy relationships do that naturally. We know that people aren’t perfect. With a healthy relationship with someone who’s not perfect and we’re not perfect, we know that people make mistakes.
We know there’s gonna be communication issues, stuff like that. We don’t have to read a book that tells us that people make mistakes. So the people reading the book, we who married an abusive man. I’m almost like those books should never have been written, because the only people reading them are women who are married to an abusive man.
Hannah: Oh my goodness, you’re so right.
Anne: People in healthy relationships don’t read books like that ’cause they don’t need to. ‘Cause they already know. Oh, that was just a communication problem.
Hannah: It makes so much sense. One book I read, it even said in the book, you just need to do this, and this week you should work on giving words of affirmation to your husband. Or plan something for him. And at this point you might be feeling like, what is he doing for me? But don’t reflect on that. And I remember being like, okay, I’m not going to. That was a turning point for me where I cemented into my character, that I am not going to keep score.
WHY NOT KEEP SCORE?
Hannah: If this is neglect, he’s not investing in the relationship, he’s not paying attention to you. And the kind of things I thought was when is the last time he held my hand? Why am I always the one reaching out for physical contact? Why is it that every time he touches me, he wants something more? He doesn’t wanna sit next to me. When we’re out in public, he’s far away from me, and he’s okay with that. Why am I always the one feeling like I’m chasing him? That book shouldn’t have been written.
Anne: No, that’s what I mean. I don’t think people keep score in healthy relationships. I’m saying this tongue in cheek, but like, why not keep score? What’s wrong with being like, wait a minute, I do all this stuff and he doesn’t. In fact, when it comes to abuse, it’s almost the opposite. Literally, write down these are all the household tasks that I do all the time, and these are the ones that he does.
And then just look at that list, see what that looks like. How many hours a day do we have? And if he’s not abusive, you could take that to him and say, you know what? I actually wrote all this down. And look at the disparity between our household tasks. A non-abusive person would be like. Wow, maybe I should stop watching so much football. Where an abusive person would be like, you don’t respect me at my job! What’s wrong with assessing the truth of the situation, which is essentially what they’re saying when they say don’t keep score. They’re basically saying, “Don’t assess what’s really happening.”
COUPLE THERAPY IS FOR PEOPLE WHO TELL THE TRUTH
Hannah: Yeah, when you’re on the abuse side of it, what marriage counselors say is all wrong. None of it works. Which is actually why I wrote to BTR, why I wanted to speak to you. What does counseling look like if you stay with your partner? Because I feel like with that history of abuse, that never goes away.
If the person does genuinely change and stops all their abusive behaviors, and then you’re rebuilding trust and in this relationship with someone. How do you approach counseling in the future? Because it’s unethical. Even if it’s 10 years down the road and you’ve stayed together. For the women staying and are rebuilding their trust. What do you do?
Anne: Yeah, so couple therapy is for essentially healthy marriages. It’s for two people who tell the truth, care about each other, have integrity, and make good choices. And they’re having trouble communicating or something. All the marriages I know that are like that, where they genuinely care about each other, where they’re both honest, they would never need to go to couple therapy. So the whole idea of couple therapy now to me is frankly ridiculous. If it were as healthy as it needs to be to go to couple therapy, you wouldn’t ever need to go.
Hannah: This dynamic seems unethical. The therapist automatically has to side with you. If this was any other kind of abuse, they wouldn’t put you in the same room, and they will have to side with you. So even if you were doing something wrong. They have to look at it through the lens of okay, but you’ve been traumatized.
ETHICALLY MARRIAGE THERAPISTS CAN’T TREAT ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIPS
Anne: They would ethically have to, but I’ve never met a therapist that does. The very foundation of it is family systems theory, basically their ethical standards bind them to not see a perpetrator and a victim. If they do, they have to stop doing the therapy.
Hannah: Right.
Anne: ‘Cause it’s not ethical. So if they’re not noticing the abuse and doing the therapy, that’s unethical. And then the second they noticed it, which should be right away, but most of them aren’t doing screenings for it. They should quit, but most don’t. So I think all couple therapy is not a good idea, because healthy couples who don’t lie to each other don’t need to go to couple therapy.
Hannah: Mm.
Anne: In general.
Hannah: And that does resonate with me. There’s part of me that’s like individual therapy.
Anne: Yeah, the problem with individual therapy in this case is that assumes for the victim that something’s wrong with her. Because the purpose of therapy isn’t to fix what’s wrong with someone else.
Hannah: Mm-hmm.
Anne: It’s to fix what’s wrong with you.
Hannah: Yeah.
Anne: Therapy for an abuse victim depends on the therapist, victims might need skills. We might need confidence.
Hannah: It is about coping skills. I think I even have a visceral reaction. It’s like when someone loses an arm, it doesn’t grow back. You just learn to cope with it. You’re not healed from it, really. And I feel like that’s how I see my life now. Talking to many people who have experienced this, it stays with you for life.
WHAT’S WRONG WITH ME?
Hannah: It’s a scar. You don’t forget it. You don’t have this magical I don’t remember anymore. That doesn’t happen. And so I guess for me it’s like for the women who are staying, how do you even frame that? For me personally, I am separated from my husband, we’re not divorced. I’m still trying to make a decision. I don’t wanna be that person who strings him along or is in limbo for years and years, but we have five kids, he’s gonna be in my life, permanently, whether I want him or not.
So I feel like he trapped me there. But there are women who choose to stay. And when I look at that, it’s like there’s always this dynamic of abuser and victim. Even if all the abuse stops, it’s like that’s still part of your history.
So how do you deal with that moving forward? Because even therapists who talk about if you decide to stay, then you have to work on yourself. Which like you said, what am I working on? What’s wrong with me?
Anne: Nothing’s wrong with you.
Hannah: You have to commit to the marriage, and you have to stop ruminating, stop bringing up the past, be all in. That language obviously deeply bothers me, because I’m not choosing to remember this.
First of all, it’s like when people say you’re ruminating, no. It’s not even once or twice a day I get this flashback moment. It’s like from the moment I wake up, every thing reminds me all day long. It’s on a loop all day long. ‘Cause this has been my life. So it’s not like I’m choosing to hold it against him. It’s just, it’s our life.
MAKING A DECISION TO GO OR STAY
Anne: Also that’s just not true. Did they tell him, “Well, if you’re gonna be married, you have to stop looking at pornography and lying to her.” And did he do it anyway? Yeah, he did.
So you can feel the way you feel. You can not be committed. When I say not to be committed, I don’t mean to cheat on him. I don’t mean that, but I just mean you can be like, yeah, I’m married to him, but I don’t like him and I’m not committed to him as a person. You could still legit do that. So anybody who’s saying, if you’re gonna stay married to him, then you have to do this and this and this. That’s not true.
Hannah: For me, I’m just thinking about a dynamic of I know all this, but objectively, when I hadn’t had this experience. How I would’ve thought about it. If you’re choosing to stay in a marriage.
If he is genuinely choosing to change, be a good person, I want that. The world does not need another person like him. Good, great, that would be awesome. I don’t know about my personal ability to believe him. I guess that’s what I’m still trying to work out. I do know that when I’m trying to have empathy and sit in his shoes. And humanize him. Because obviously that’s very difficult for me at this point. He does need to, from a Christian perspective, forgive himself, see himself as a child of God, all these things to have a true conversion.
However, you wanna phrase it if you’re not Christian, genuinely change. I feel like we’re so incompatible now.
YOU CAN BE MARRIED AND NOT SLEEP IN THE SAME BED
Hannah: If I’m staying, my needs and what’s going on in my head all day are exactly the opposite of someone who is trying to love themselves and see themselves as a child of God and needs a cheerleader. Obviously, I’m not capable of doing that, and I’m not going to do that. I don’t think any woman should. I am the survivor over here, and he’s the one who cheated.
I’m the loyal person who can’t even wrap my head around any of the things he’s done, because I loved him so deeply. He didn’t love me at all. And to move forward in a marriage like that. How do you move past, that feels like it’s been thrown off forever. That doesn’t come back.
Anne: However you want, I think is the answer. And you also don’t have to, you can stay married and not move past it.
Hannah: Mm-hmm.
Anne: There is no right answer. And I think that’s the hard thing for everybody, because the right answer has to be that you have to forgive me and start sleeping in the same bed.
Hannah: Mm-hmm.
Anne: Well, that’s just more manipulation and more lies, ’cause that’s not true. You can be married and not sleep in the same bed, not live in the same house. There’s like all of these options out there.
Hannah: Mm-hmm.
Anne: You can do literally whatever you want, but the hard part of it is having the confidence to do what you wanna do.
HE DOESN’T MEAN IT THAT WAY
Anne: Rather than listening to someone who tells you, well, if you’re gonna do this, then you have to do it this way. And I think that’s where a lot of us get tripped up a little bit.
Hannah: I did the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop. I got the workbook and worked through. It was very helpful, especially recognizing gaslighting. I think I was a frog in the boiling water. You would hear about all these other people who’ll stay through abuse. How will you do that?
Now when I reflect, how is that me? I saw him as this person I’ve known my whole life. So when he would say things, then he’d say, well, I didn’t mean it. And I believed him, it felt genuine to me.
That’s just him. That’s just us. He is just joking. He doesn’t mean it that way. He does love me. It didn’t feel that bad to me when it was happening. Even though the logic, hang on a second, you’re just joking. What part of that is funny? I don’t think you’d speak to a colleague this way. Or find myself saying things like, you just changed your story. What is happening here?
Anne: The “excuse or the reason” I’m gonna put in quotes, doesn’t happen until after we call them out on it. So they say something, we call ’em out. Then they say it’s a joke. They don’t say, I’m gonna tell a joke. I know it might hurt your feelings, but I just thought of this. It’s funny, I actually don’t mean it. Are you ready? ’cause I think you might think it’s funny too, and then they say it. No, that would be like someone who’s aware of our feelings, who knows us well.
THERE WAS ALWAYS A GOOD EXPLANATION
Anne: I think things like that about my kids sometimes I’m like, oh my word. This would be so funny to say right now.
So I’ll prepare my children like, Hey, I wanna say this joke. It’s not meant to hurt your feelings. And they laugh and think it’s funny. But that’s different than saying something. And then if you didn’t call him out, if you didn’t say, Hey, that hurt my feelings. Or if you didn’t say, Hey, wait, a colleague wouldn’t say that. He just goes about his day? The only time he says, oh, it’s a joke, or, oh, I didn’t mean it that way, was after you call him out on it.
Hannah: I’d be like, “oh, that makes sense, because I don’t wanna believe you could ever actually be hurtful and think of me that way.” There were moments throughout our relationship where I would question like oh, you’re talking down to me. There was always a good explanation. So when I did the workshop, that was very eye-opening, I saw the patterns of behavior.
It took really stepping back from it because I just believed he didn’t mean it that way. But obviously there are certain words and phrases, no one else uses it any other way. That was eye-opening.
My kids are getting older. A year has passed, and what am I supposed to do with my life? What does God want me to do with my life? What about my children? What’s best for them? These are questions that I find are very circular. I can answer them all.
Hannah: Obviously, God wouldn’t want anything bad for me. What’s best for me and what keeps me safe is best for my children. I do know that.
Anne: We know God wants you to be safe . Not knowing what the specifics of that are is okay.
Hannah: I don’t think anyone is like calling me up and pressuring me or anything like that. But people in your community check in, they ask how are you and you’re Chuck? And they’re asking if we’re back together yet. I think there’s always that kind of pressure. I have been realizing that it is mostly my own view. Because ultimately, I don’t know what other people think.
I don’t know what actually goes on in their brains. I just know what I think they think and what I think they think often is how I see the world. Even when this first happened, I knew I would tell me to leave. I knew that pretty much instantly, because I’ve had so many conversations with different people.
My own parents were divorced. My dad married his affair partner. I wanted to avoid divorce, I did everything to find a good guy, looked out for all the warning signs, or so I thought. It seems like I am living the worst version of life possible, the worst nightmare come true. And the acceptance of living every day grieving the fact that this person I thought I was married to never existed. And the man that’s before me now is this person I don’t even know. I don’t even recognize. It’s hard to reconcile that this is the guy who’s made all these choices.
Part of that for me is once a cheater, always a cheater. People say this. It’s not that I believe he can’t change or won’t change, or even that he’s going to do it again. That resonates with me. The once that cheater always cheater. Not just because of the stigma, but because to me, it’s the same thing as a murderer. I know that sounds extreme, but even if you just killed the one guy, we’re not gonna stop calling you a murderer.
Like it has that impact on people’s lives, that it changes how we see you to the point that you just earned yourself a new name. It’s the type of thing that doesn’t go away. We as a society try to rehabilitate these people. But if you’re the person who knew that person who did that, they’re a murderer in your mind, just because of how it changed your view. You didn’t know they had the capacity [00:26:00] to do that thing, and now that you know that you can’t unknow that even if they never do it again.
Anne: It’s a character issue. There are a lot of people in this world who never do that, like ever.
Hannah: Exactly.
Anne: I’ve never cheated on my husband or lied him for seven years. Good people, when they’re making good decisions, they never do that.
I fully believe that people can change. Maybe that is not the right thing for someone who is an abuse advocate to say, but I just believe it in my bones. I can’t not believe it. The way that I view it is more like, I don’t know if you’ve heard my Ebola analogy. My Ebola analogy is for the most part, Ebola is a thing that you can get treatment for and that you can heal from. But nobody would say hey, move in with this person, or sleep in the same bed with a person who has Ebola, ever, ever, ever. That person’s literally gonna be isolated until they legit do not have Ebola anymore and so I think that that’s the way I think of it.
Is that if they have a little bit of Ebola. I’m not [00:27:00] going to be around them. So like my ex for example, he still lies. If he didn’t, he would do some things differently. Like there’s some things that he would be doing with our children that I would be able to see with my own eyeballs. He pays zero and when I say zero I mean legit zero child support, zero alimony zero things for our children. His relationship with them stinks. The way that he interacts with them stinks. So I can see he still has Ebola right now. So it’s not like I’m gonna be like, oh I can hang out with you now.
Hannah: So I guess the limitations for myself are that like everyone thought he was a great father, a great husband, myself included. it’s And he was involved and he did do all the things. Like we prayed together every day.
Anne: So did we.
Hannah: Can’t tell that he had Ebola in this case. It’s like maybe he has Ebola and he’s just hiding it very well.
Anne: Yeah. I love your point about the murderer. It’s ok to be like, you know what? I don’t really wanna be with someone [00:28:00] who’s murdered somebody. So if you were dating someone new, And you said I don’t really want to be with someone who lied to their wife for 4 years and had an affair. And used porn the whole time That would also apply to him. That’s also fine to say.
So just because people can change doesn’t mean that you owe them anything It doesn’t mean you have to stick around. It doesn’t mean any of that.
Hannah: Yeah, exactly. The the crux of the issue for me is the choices you’ve made and even if those are in the past. That does bring it back to the marriage counseling thing. There’s no timeline for these things so you might be rebuilding trust for the next 40 years or till you die. Obviously some people are going to be like I’m not here for that, that’s too hard. When someone has broken your trust so deeply you might always have that catch in your gut, oh, what if?
Anne: It might not even be rebuilding either, it might all be manipulation. This question of are they still lying or not? Even if they’re not can I view them differently now? All [00:29:00] of that is hard to process. And there is no right answer and that’s also the hard thing. It would be much easier to be like, if this is here and this is here and this is there then this what I should do. Nothing that we do we do at BTR is like that.
Because everybody’s situation is different. Everybody has a different feeling for what they want to do with their life. The only thing I care about is that women know what emotional safety is and that’s their top priority. And they’re working toward that in whatever form that takes for them.
The other thing I really care about is that women are living their own life. There is a part in the workshop that I love. That’s like what are your dreams, what are your goals? What do you want to do with your life? Knowing that it literally is your one life. When you’re with someone who’s lying to it really feels like your life, my life is on hold.
Helping women in whatever way overcome that so that they can start building the life that they want to live .
Hannah: Yes, [00:30:00] It’s helpful obviously hearing other people’s stories and trying to work through. I do recognize that everything I’m going through now is through this somewhat narrow lens of my own experience. Some people feel a lot differently, because their experience was different. It’s not a one size fits all.
I was very active in the community and obviously it blind-sided me, just having to take time off from all the things I was involved in. I told him, I’m not explaining this to anyone. If you wanna be accountable, if you wanna prove yourself, go ahead I don’t care. I’m not policing you, I’m not doing anything. I’m just gonna take a step back from everything.
I didn’t want to be the person checking his phone. ‘ Cause in my mind there’s no point. I can’t control you. You hid this so well for so long. You were already pretending to be open and transparent. You already let me go through your phone you already pretended like you had nothing to hide. So with his job, he travels. I knew where you were before cause you were where you said you were I just didn’t know you were with someone. You could have a whole second family and I wouldn’t know. There is no point in me trying.
He said he genuinely wanted to change, which hated who he [00:31:00] was. That he didn’t want to be that person anymore. He’s like, I don’t deserve to be with you.
I don’t know.
Anne: I know that could either be true or it could be more manipulation. In your case, the way that you’re feeling right now, for you, it doesn’t matter and the reason I’m saying that is because even if he is telling the truth you can still make different decisions. Just because he told the truth doesn’t mean that you owe him something.
As a Christian myself, in the scriptures over and over it talks about forgiveness in the context of debt. That’s what Jesus is talking about, He’s like forgive the people indebted to you so that you’re not stressed out all the time, By like hey you owe me money, you owe me money. If you forgive the debt they can go on their way and you never have to see them again.
He owes you a good marriage. If you forgive him, you could rip up the contract and be like, i’m forgiving you of the debt that you owe me of a good marriage and we can move apart.
In the scriptures forgiveness is a way of moving away from someone, not toward them. So I think it’s weird that so many Christians have interpreted it that way when it’s continually used in the context of debt. There’s just different ways [00:32:00] of processing it and you will figure it out. You’ve got a good head on your shoulders and whatever the right thing is for you. You will do it. That’s the good news.
Hannah: Well, thank you.
Anne: Well, you are awesome. Thank you so much for spending time with me today, Hannah.
Hannah: Thank you for having me. It’s been really helpful And I hope that this conversation helps other women who come and find your channel. I know that your channel has been really helpful for me. It’s been wonderful meeting you and talking to you. So thanks for everything you do, Anne.
Anne: Thank you.
New Intro for Mom’s interview
Anne: And now you’re gonna be introduced to my mom. The first time I aired this, women were like, “I love your mom. She’s awesome.” And I love her too.
So a lot of women wonder if their husband is “just” looking at inappropriate media online is that cheating? I think it is, and my mom thinks it is. In fact, the word we use is adultery.
And so here’s a conversation with my mom about why a husband secretly using inappropriate media online is actually, and technically adultery.
Is ONLINE BETRAYAL CHEATING?
Anne: My mom is joining me today because lately she’s been on a soap box, an awesome soap box. That we should talk more about how inappropriate media isn’t just viewing videos, or pictures. It almost always involves self-pleasure.
It involves the bonding chemicals that you release during intercourse. I have a section of this in my book that will be coming out soon, about how masturbation is always part of the equation.
It’s CHEATING Because Of What He’s Actually Doing
Anne: Can you explain why you think that instead of calling it what we normally do, we should just say virtual sex?
Mom: Well, the reason I thought it’s important is because a lot of the world doesn’t think it involves anything else other than just looking.
But when they look at those pictures, there are real women who had their picture taken. They’re somebody’s mom, they’re somebody’s daughter, somebody’s sister. They are real women. The other thought I had is that, usually in connection with the it, men masturbate. Just like Anne said at the opening, that involves the same chemicals. The same hormonal response that a man would have with a live woman.
So, I just felt instead of everybody saying, well, avoid exploitative media, blah, blah, blah. You need to call it virtual sex. Because that’s what it is. Back when I was younger, many men used phone sex. That’s what they called it, phone sex. They would call on the phone, it was a real woman, and she was responding in real time. Of course, he would be masturbating at the same time. So that was where I came from.
WHAT SCRIPTURE SAYS ABOUT ONLINE BETRAYAL
Mom: And then also the quote in Matthew, I think it’s in chapter 5, and I believe it’s verse 28, where it says, If a man lusts after a woman, he has already committed adultery in his heart.
Anne: Many people don’t think that just it’s adultery. But if you combine it with masturbation to create a sexual experience. That someone’s having or performing with another person or thing. In this case, with a virtual scenario, they are actually having sex with a computer.
Mom: Yeah, you wouldn’t say computer. That conjures up all kinds of other issues, but no, I mean …
Anne: It’s not just a picture though. it’s a video.
Mom: A video of a real person, yes. They’re just providing their own physical stimulation.
ONLINE BETRAYAL Is Adultery
Anne: Like the responses I’ve received from the few people I’ve said it to so far. That virtual sex is adultery. And what includes virtual sex isn’t just a VR, like goggles that you would wear. But actually viewing anything and masturbating is virtual sex. That’s what it is. Why do you think people think it’s not adultery?
Mom: I think they have in mind that it’s just this innocent thing. On the man’s part, I guess I should say, but it doesn’t involve a real person in real time. But these women, many of them, are either sex trafficked. Or forced into doing this by virtue of drug abuse or slavery.
Anne: Regardless of how they got there.
Mom: Right.
Anne: They’re a real person. And the man still has real, actual sex with that person. That he does not know, that has no name, that’s on the film. The other thing is that he actually has real sex with himself.
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HOW Soft Language HideS HIS ONLINE Betrayal IN COUNSELING FOR CHEATING
Mom: When people hear that he just uses this stuff all the time, they don’t view it as innocent, just looking at a picture type of thing.
Anne: Or a video.
Mom: Or a video, yeah. But I think, this is my soap box here, it really is virtual sex. And we should call it what it really is, so that there’s no confusion about it.
Anne: When you think of a man sitting in front of a computer or his phone. Just looking at it.
Anne: People do not envision him looking at their phone or computer while masturbating. Because who wants to think about that?
Mom: Yeah.
Anne: No one.
Mom: Yeah, it’s too awkward, it’s too uncomfortable. Many people have trouble even saying the word masturbation.
Anne: Right
Mom: It’s not a comfortable thing.
Anne: No, so it makes sense that when you say it, that’s what people envision. That they’re looking at their phone or computer.
Mom: Many people in the world, me not being one of them, think masturbation is fine. So, that’s the other issue. It’s not just that we don’t see them as maybe not having sex. But they don’t view that as “sex” when it really is. It involves the same hormones, the same body responses.
Anne: They’re having sex with themselves.
Mom: Yes.
Religious Perspectives On ONLINE BETRAYAL
Anne: We want to know what you think about this. We would welcome your comments. Please go to BTR.ORG and find this podcast episode. Do you think it’s adultery and why?
Mom: When it involves someone in a committed relationship.
Anne: If they’re not in a committed relationship, is it fornication? Yes. In my opinion. If you are a religious person and believe in the commandments and law of chastity, then it would be fornication.
It’s either fornication or adultery, but in neither of those cases, in my opinion, is it okay. Maybe you disagree. We’d love to hear your thoughts on it.
You’re going to get a lot of people who think it’s crazy, and that’s okay. But that’s what we’re here for. So many people don’t know what is exploitative. To validate women who feel this way, and let you know that if you do feel this way, we feel the same way too. You’re in good company.
Mom: Or bad company.
Anne: Or you’re in very bad company. We’re such an evil influence.
Mom: Dangerous.
Anne: I know. We’re laughing because people call my ideas dangerous a lot of the time. So, it’s so dangerous to say that exploitative media is adultery. Woo! When Christ himself said it. In what, Matthew?
Mom: Matthew chapter 5.
Anne: I love my Mom.
What We’ve Learned About ONLINE AND EMOTIONAL BETRAYAL
Anne: I’m super grateful that she came on today, and I love her opinion that we should start saying virtual betrayal.
If you agree with our stance, that it’s adultery. That it’s virtual sex. And is lying emotional abuse? Yes. If you agree with us, maybe because your husband has virtual sex with women online, and you need support, and you totally get it. You know what we’re talking about.
We’re here for you. There are many so-called betrayal trauma therapists, coaches or groups out there. But they don’t approach using exploitative media or infidelity, virtual sex as an abuse issue. Or they try to “treat” both the abuser and the victim in the same setting, which is unethical. BTR groups sessions are different.
We get it. We never victim blame, and we are here to support you. So if you relate to anything we said in this episode, check out our daily support group schedule. We’d love to see you in a group session today.
This is great. I completely agree that people just think of photos and videos when they hear about exploitative material. I think saying Virtual Sex instead says it like it is. Much more true to what’s really happening. And yes, it is adultery – no question. Thanks so much.
I’m so glad you found it helpful! These types of behaviors really are adultery!
My husband will never “remember” or admit this, but when he tries to have sex with me the first night of our marriage, he was really missing what he watches online. I could tell because he could not be aroused by me. Also, for 5 years I believed in his Christian image as he ignored me sexually. I don’t think he would have even noticed if we had sex or not the first 5 years until I found it. Do not tell me that isn’t adultery…
Im curious to if you believe that a woman watching sexual shows that may not be as extreme as this type of inappropriate meeting, but theres still nudity, and then never wanting to have sex with their spouse isn’t following the same ideology as a man watching that stuff. Maybe shes not masturbating to it, but it becomes like a switch that she isn’t going to get that kind of encounter in the sheets, so she decides to just shut off?? I would like to discuss this more.
Yes, I think anything that causes “lust” would be in that category and harmful to a marriage. My site is for women who have been harmed by male partners, however, that doesn’t mean that women can’t use dangerous, exploitative material as well. No one should use it.
Amen! I agree 100%!
It really is adultery – AND if this stuff is outside your sexual boundaries, it’s also sexual coercion!
Thank you for being so honest, straightforward and not sugar coat it.
I’m experiencing trauma from a narcissistic husband, his gas lighting, making me feel guilty, blame shifting, being so controlling sometimes, being hypocrite, when he himself has addiction to explicit stuff and has had an affair himself. He has been meeting with a white gorgeous 10 or 15 year younger woman than me near his workplace and they get on bus rides.
Hi! Thanks for this episode and all you do! I agree p*rn is adultery because Jesus said it. And because Jesus said if you “look lustfully” that is equal to adultery, since he made it clear it is just the lingering gaze to make someone else an object of your sexual desire. I love the liberty and respect for women that shows! So, by easy deduction, a viewing of p*rn is adultery. Whatever kind and however often and accompanied by any or no other acts. That’s my perspective!
Thank you for your support! I’m so glad you found it helpful.
Loved this episode!!! Waiting till my divorce is finalized before I post it on my Facebook page. It’s maddening when people say “it’s just entertainment” because I believe they are basically saying that I’m being overly insecure or jealous or controlling when I state that my stbx shattered my trust and my heart because of his online infidelity and other “innocent” situations involving other women. I have chosen divorce because of a combination of things, but am realizing that it’s partly because I chose not to stay until he was involved in a proven affair. All of this is adultery. Thank you very much for this episode. Your mom sounds so sweet as well as… I don’t know how to explain it, but I really enjoyed listening to the two of you together. Much love!
Thanks for the support! We appreciate you helping to spread the word:).
Wow!!! Absolutely! I never thought of it in those words before. This is 100% accurate. Emphasizing that the same chemical hormones are released through masturbation as in real life is the home run hit. It IS adultery! Truth is truth. Thank you for expressing and validating what I have felt but never had the words to express so clearly! Excellent! Thank you again!
I absolutely agree it is cheating and wrong – and I am an athiest! If you are directing your sexual energy outside of your relationship instead of engaging with your partner you are robbing your relationship of healthy intimacy and choosing to be with “other.” “Other” can take many forms but each of these is a betrayal to your partner and the life you are supposed to be building together. A solid partnership has a boundary around it that protects the partners & marriage from the outside world and when you start blurring that line it is a breakdown of your relationship. Devotion, commitment, loyalty, and respect are not old fashioned values they are essential to the survival of a marriage. If someone is single and watching exploited women it is still morally reprehensible; it is depraved indifference to the life and humanity of the women and children in the images. A good percentage of what constitutes this exploitative material is actually a crime being filmed or crime scene photos, that these men are then becoming aroused by and climaxing to repeatedly. There is something very wrong at the core of a person who can take the suffering of others and derive pleasure from it; in other words, it’s sadism. I left my kid gloves at home today, and I’m really fed up with the mainstream whitewashing of these issues, so I don’t care if there is backlash from standing up to this inequality. I’ll leave you now with one of my own “radical” views: this is adultery, because it is targeted against women as a group, and ignores the basic human dignity we all possess and reduces us to a product that can be bought and sold and used and discarded. Wipe, repeat. The US had slavery for 300+ years but exploitative material is just the newer, culturally glamorized and accepted version. Once the women’s movement comes full circle I believe people will no longer view any of this as “acceptable differences in point of view.” Anne you are NOT crazy they just don’t want you to shake up the status quo; you have stumbled upon the core of their false entitlements. #lundybancroft #dromarminwalla
Lisa! Thank you so much for your support:). Hugs!!
I honestly am applauding that the strip clubs in my town have shrunk, and can not wait for them to be completely eradicated. Too many other small businesses that could use the locations for something greater than “ok’d” prostitution.
Agreed on every front.
In the middle of divorce right now and his online choices were the gateway drug to everything else that caused our marriage to fall apart. He started there ( before we were married) and eventually was fully involved in addiction, and caused me immense amounts of betrayal trauma… which had all became part of the equation before it was over.
From the beginning I have always believed that masterbation was ‘sex with self’, and the online exploitation of women was just a tool to help in the foreplay of making that happen. I do not believe we are designed to have sex alone. Intimacy does not and cannot happen in a vacuum.
So in that sense I have struggled to fully ever calling it sex… but I know that through my husbands addiction I have learned that all the brain chemicals, all the triggers, all the same stimulation and gratification had taken place.
So yes. It is ‘sexual’. And yes, therefore adultry.
Terminology wise I kinda want to say that online infidelity is adultry because it is almost a faux-intimacy, false-intimacy, or something to that effect.
Still chewing on how to speak about it…
I appreciate your thoughts. The concept that online infidelity IS adultery is new and it’s a lot to process!
I can’t remember where, but I read somewhere that when masturbating while viewing it, the brain can’t tell the difference.
As he’s more than likely fantasizing that he’s the one with the woman on the screen, his brain thinks he’s actually having sex (or whatever he’s viewing) with her.
If that’s not adultery…
What is? Yeah. I agree.
We should be careful qualifying virtual sex/adultery as “viewing photos of a real person with accompanying masturbation.” This sentiment is too limiting and may minimize behavior outside of the definition.
Adultery can occur without a real person’s photograph—say, a computer generated image, or a painting, or just imagination. And, the chemicals which accompany sex, dopamine, oxytocin, etc., need not come through masturbation.
It’s not just nudity. It is *anything* extramarital that is used for arousal. Adultery is not a sex act with self or an extramarital partner. It is the *very seeking* of emotional and sexual intimacy outside of the marriage.
Adultery, and fornication can all happen in the mind. Christ taught that lust was the committing of adultery in a man’s heart. Nothing else is needed to label the behavior as adultery. Real or virtual, lustful behaviors betray the commitments made in marriage and with God.
By the way, I’m a husband in recovery. Thank you for giving tender wives the voice they deserve.
There is always hope with Christ.
Thank you so much for this! I totally agree:). I appreciate your perspective and support! There IS always hope in Christ!
Thank you for sharing. It is amazing to me that you seem to understand the pain wives feel when husbands are unfaithful and betray their trust. I felt I was not enough. My self esteem dropped to almost nothing. I had tremendous anxiety when we went anywhere there was attractive women he would stare at, and I later found out he was lying to me and going behind my back with other women. Many wives report the same feelings. I divorced him and am now gaining back my self esteem. It’s been a hard journey, but I’m finally starting to feel like myself again. I’m so grateful for BTR!
Hi Anne and Mom, love this episode thank you and completely agree.
Also, some computer activities involve websites where the viewer can be involved in mutual masturbation in real time. This is absolutely adultery in my view as well as with the videos. My former husband did this. Thank you.
Janine, I’m so sorry about the pain you’ve gone through. Thank you for supporting BTR!
Ah, no Hans. Anger is a healthy emotion that MAKES SENSE in the context of adultery. Even Jesus became angry sometimes calling people vipers or throwing them out of the temple. If a woman didn’t become angry when her husband abused her, she would be crazy. Anger is the appropriate reaction to abuse and infidelity. You’re clearly trying to silence your victim with that line of logic. See my post on legitimate anger when you’re a victim of abuse and infidelity, all taken from scripture.
Thank you Anne! My (ex)pastor used the exact line of reasoning as Hans when counseling my husband and myself. It was horribly traumatizing for me. But I couldn’t come up with an argument or response on the spot, because his words just shut me down completely and I could barely breathe, let alone find words to express.
This is the way my soon to be ex always manipulated scripture,to Darvo me. It is just as bad as the virtual sex, which IS adultery. I tell people that I trust that his girlfriends were “virtual”. I have done that for quite a while. I also believe that those people will be held accountable to Christ for what they have done, it’s spiritual abuse.
It goes even further than this now, which was bad enough (the photos and videos). Now there is this disgusting act of live, what they call ‘cam models’. Which is really just an innocuous way of disguising the fact that they are online prostititutes. The women go live on webcam, with the men watching them live on webcam or on chat, and they direct them to do things live on camera. How is that not adultery? I had no idea this existed until God revealed it to me that it did and that my husband used them. There is no denying that is adultery, and yes I agree that all forms of online exploitation are adultery.
Yes! It’s crazy to think that people don’t understand what really happens with p*rn. People are hurt on either side of the screen. The woman who is being abused through prostitution, and the wife who is being lied to, abused, and neglected at home.
I know I’m about a month behind but I TOTALLY agree. YES, it’s TOTALLY is adultery. I’ve really been struggling with this concept lately because my ex-spouse claims that the reason our marriage failed is that “we just didn’t work.”
It’s such a denial of truth and it hurts so much that he can’t even see what he did.
In his mind, I was crazy, needy, controlling, but he’s the one who cheated.
It gave me so much power to hear this episode. It gave me words that I’ve been scared to say out loud.
My husband cheated on me.
Thank you for giving me a voice.
Totally. Alisha, I’m so glad you found it helpful!
How about this? Using this stuff is a choice. I believe that if you truly love your partner and are in love with them, and the partnership is emotionally and sexually healthy…then there wouldn’t be the need and possibly not a choice for that man to use it? That sounds logical to me, but maybe I find that logical because I think this way as a woman. Not sure about how men think about this because I’m not a man, but yet I would find it logical if it would be like this with a man also. I am in love with my husband and have zero need to be sexually involved with anything or anyone else, and that includes online exploitative material. Does this then mean that if a man who is truly in love with his partner should feel the same way and not need it? I guess it all depends on what men use it for, but if it is for pure lust and interest in other women, then in my opinion this is betrayal of his partner and NOT true love. And if he is doing it behind her back then this is beyond betrayal and a complete disregard of the importance of respect and trust in a relationship!
Absolutely! It’s virtual sex, adultery, fornication, abuse!
Even if they don’t masturbate to it…it’s all those things. It releases the same chemical connection that happens between in person interactions.
So, I have been struggling with this with my fiance for some time period even before we made the commitment to be engaged, this has always been a problem with us. I’m also an sexual abuse survivor and a proactive feminist. I also am an empath and as crazy as this sounds electronics are affected by my mood as well as other things.
He tells me they don’t mean anything but he knows their names, what movies they star in, if there is a film with them in it, he recognizes their face and where he’s seen them. And he doesn’t just look up random women or actresses caught on tape (I drew the line at this and he’s stopped since I brought it up) but the point being, how am I supposed to receive this? How a I supposed to be cool with this kind of committed attention on women that aren’t me?
And the thing is he knows it makes me angry, that although I don’t ask for much, I demand loyalty so why still do it? Why not at least try to stop, instead of making excuses?
I’ve offered alternative activities, things that will help him feel better since he’s lived unhealthily in the past and he’s a little older now. “This helps me sleep” he says, but it doesn’t help him get any better at living his life.
In turn, I also watch virtual sex. I try my hardest not to and honestly if I have to do anything by myself it’s with my partner in mind, not another person. If I use virtual sex, same thing I’m imagining us. I view it differently than he does. I also try my best to make sure I don’t know who these people are. I figure abstinence is the only way I can move past this for myself but worried that that will make him worse.
He tells me he’s happy but if he is then why the need to watch?
I am currently in a divorce process after discovering my husband’s 8-year addiction to live cybersex/virtual sex in chatrooms and on Skype. He flies to see the latest performer (only cybersex though) buys the items on her Amazon wish list, bought her a $3,000 bracelet for Valentines Day, texts incessantly with her all day long. He is a 62-year-old who had wanted to be a minister. She’s 26 and looks like a supermodel. He said she “is like water “ to him—-he’s so addicted. I would discourage the use “virtual sex “ in the case of a lack of live relationship. I think addiction , compulsive exploitation of women, adulterous behaviors describe adequately what’s going on.
I’m so sorry you and all of your listeners are living this horrid nightmare. It’s a growing plague on our families and children. Thank you for all you are doing!
Mary, I’m so sorry for what you’ve been through. Thank you for sharing. Betrayal trauma is so hard!
I see a lot of talk about the more violent stuff out there. But even if the actors seem to be gentle it’s evil. It will destroy his self control and resistance to temptation. He may get pressured by his cravings to the point where he will go out and exploit a prostitute, only to come home with an STD which he will pass on to his wife if he gets married. If he is married, he may ruin his own health along with his wife’s health – especially her emotional health. He may resort to prostitutes, or get snared by an unscrupulous, manipulative woman who will twist him round her little finger and then chew him up and spit him out when she gets tired of him. The damage of exploiting women in this way is always destroyed trust, ruined family, ruined life.
Thanks for sharing!
It’s all exploitation. And yes it is adultery.
Smart. Yes, it’s all abusive exploitation!
It is 100% adultery. I haven’t even been married 4 years and he was using way before we got together and this is the 4th time around that I caught him ( I know there has been so much more that I don’t even know about ). He always says he will stop but on this last time he made the comment “what’s the big deal of me looking at a naked woman” and that I needed to chill out…well I have to tell you that was the last straw..I am now in the spare bedroom and making plans to leave as I do not accept this behavior nor do I have to live this. I think he is actually relieved so he can go about what he choose over me… Oh and I won’t miss going out in public with him and watch him ogle every woman that fits his fantasies.
My husband and I just recently started talking about our “struggles” You really are doing amazing things I thoroughly enjoyed hearing you and your mom talk about this. It’s adultery for sure.
Thank you for sharing. It is amazing to me that you seem to understand the pain wives feel when husbands use this stuff to satisfy themselves. I felt I was not enough. My self esteem dropped to almost nothing. I had tremendous anxiety when we went any where there was attractive women he would stare at. Many wives report the same feelings. I divorced him and am now gaining back my self esteem.
Thank you for sharing!
Yes! It should be called is virtual sex!!! It is adultery and fornication as my husband even writes these women’s names and circles and highlights the ones he really likes! I asked him why he does that and his answer was, he doesn’t even know them. And what I hate about all there is that when he gives me a birthday card, or any card: “mother’s days; anniversary- he doesn’t even write my name and his salutation is left blank and he just puts in his complementary closing remarks!
Disgusting!
Yes, I’m so glad you brought that up.
Yup. It’s adultery. Even if the person watching is not married, it’s still adultery. It violates the concept of marital covenant. It’s exploitative of the people that are being watched. It’s consuming human beings like they are objects to be bought/sold. I like the point made in this podcast that it creates a form of bond between the watcher and the people being viewed. There is a human bond/attachment made, even if there is distance through a screen.
So it’s still exploitative from one human being to another. It’s fueling exploitation because people are being raped and have been exploited. THey’ve been coerced or deception, or being under the psychological hold of someone who has brought them into the sex industry.
Or they are driven by perceived lack of options/circumstances/societal factors. People can be easily coerced to say something is their “choice” when it still may not really be if they knew the full truth or had other options. It’s not just neutral nothingness viewed through a screen that doesn’t hurt anyone. It creates a form of human connection that causes harm and damage to the people who are being viewed.
Hi there. We are 9 years into marriage. In year 1 of our marriage, I caught my husband with online mistresses. He was a sex addict. We went though a lot of counseling and healing. He has been sober for 8 years. Today, my father-in-law, who is by the book, passionately advocated to me that sex through videos and messaging (my husband’s was personal with people) was not considered adultery or infidelity; not grounds for divorce.
I came online to do some digging because this is not what I felt or experienced. I feel deeply offended that he doesn’t believe what happened was adultery. I have never felt so much pain as I did going through that specific betrayal. Thoughts?
I think, in a man’s mind, many things aren’t “real adultery” because they can’t impregnate anyone. They feel off the hook because virtually, they can’t father any children. They are not thinking about what they are taking away from you.
Finally what I believe and think is put into logical words that are formatted in a way that can easily explain when I can’t. Thank you so much for this- this subject is very triggering for me, but this makes me feel less alone and know that my thoughts are valid.
My husband has been involved in all the above exploitative stuff. Calling them and having sexual conversations. I have dealt with this for 25 years. I am not sure I believe he can ever get past this problem. I am getting myself set to file for divorce. He has robbed our marriage with this behavior.
Sex of any sort outside of the marriage is absolutely adultery! Visual or virtual or any kind. I find the double standard very telling here, because if we were all working as cam girls, no one would hesitate to call us adultresses, even though it would be “just virtual” or “wouldn’t mean anything” or “we didn’t even know their names.”
The really frightening thing about this, to me, is that the eraser of the woman’s humanity is exactly what attracts him! At least if he had an affair with “Cindy” down the street there would be some sort of at least faked human connection.
This idea of sex being entirely selfish and self centered, the idea that the ideal woman has no needs or desires or even real thoughts or identity, it’s frankly monstrous. You can’t have intimacy with a person who desires this sort of thing. You can only be exploited by a person who desires this sort of thing. If you are like me and assumed sex is an expression of love (which perhaps it could be with a healthy man), my heart breaks for you if you’re involved with an abuser. You have stumbled into a situation where this couldn’t be further from the truth. In many ways, I believe my sex addict husband actually finds sex to be the antithesis of love and respect. I don’t know if a man can ever fully heal from being that mixed up.
Amen, Anne and Anne’s Mom!
I have recognized that my marriage of 31+ years has been a sham. He has always committed adultery in this way. He has used magazines, videos, computer virtual sex, and sending inappropriate stuff with strangers. BTR has helped me in so many ways feeling stronger. Your interviews have led me on a path of better understanding my feeling, his problematic behaviors.
I am still navigating whether to stay or not now he is in treatment. I work on my strong protective boundaries and not holding myself responsible for his choices. Thanks so much Anne
Yes, I agree. It’s virtual sex for sure. Much more accurate description—just like phone sex, sexting, and oral sex all use the word for what is happening. Let’s be accurate in our description! I’m all for this.
Let’s also stop saying masturbation, and say self-sex instead!!!
Yesss!!
It is absolutely adultery! First, this stuff is proven to alter the brain.
Second, if it is your spouse they don’t see you the same, you are cheated out of a present loving spouse – because of other “women” virtual or not.
It ruins relationships everyday.
So is reading smuth literature.not even looking at pics or videos, but women are different.
Times have changed a lot, and of course the context was looking at a real women(not girl, not virgin)probably a mother of children , married also.Lusting for her would mean disconnecting the emotional relationship with your own partner, messing up the mrriage of someone else and their children.The commandment is a protective and preventive measure against the enemy misusing our biology to destroy a family.
Of course its a picture or a video today, not a real person.But the matter is your own heart, thats very real.Someone could make the excuse of looking at cartoons, thats not a real person…..
But the one looking at it is, no matter if its fantasy world or a real person in front of you.
It divides the heart to a lie, and separates you from your partner….in your heart,therefore its adultery.
My husband makes so many excuses for “ecchi” I seen photos in his recently deleted folder and it was nudes that looked very real of the sexual body parts. He admitted to masterbating to it every so often. It’s only been 5 months in our marriage and today he decided to leave and stay at his mother’s house. I know God hates divorce and he also hates adultry. I forgave but it is hard to forget and seeing this direction he is going is very disappointing he blames me that I ask too much from him. He says he loves God but is in this nastiness. I cannot trust or see a future and I feel very unsafe and insecure to continue in marriage. It’s 4 a.m. and I have no peace that he is loyal. Please keep us in your prayers.
I totally agree with your mom. It is virtual sex. Especially in terms of how the brain chemistry is effected, masturbating to ejaculation releasing bonding chemicals. This totally supports why my husband was so ‘bonded’ to watching awful stuff, then seeking more virtual sex in ‘real time’ through the live web cam medium, subscribing to it, only fan type sites, and then progressing to soliciting the prostitute he became bonded to through her live web cam. Then started dating her, then I found out, asked him to move out so I could feel safe. Then further grooming and gaslighting from him, I went into detective mode to prove it, found out more lies & manipulation, confronted him, only for him to GHOST ME and move in with the prostitute he originally bonded with online… via virtual sex…
Your mom is spot on! Good on you Anne’s mom 🙂 Your podcast continues to validate the betrayal trauma/abuse. You and your guests help me on my healing journey every day.
Thank you! Love from Sydney Australia
I agree it’s totally cheating because they are lusting for another person. It’s an emotional abuse towards your partner for sure. I’m glad I’m not the only one that feels this way after experiencing this with my ex husband. After my third born I couldn’t handle him pleasing himself with virtual girls online while being with me. He always said it’s normal and it’s not cheating but in my heart and mind I felt betrayed. I’m so grateful to hear I’m not the only women or man feeling this way about virtual sex. It’s as you say virtual sex with another person just because you can’t feel them your still doing the act in your mind and pleasing yourself to another person. It’s betrayal in many ways. Thank you for sharing.