Jane Gilmore, consent educator, talks with Anne Blythe, M.Ed, about how it’s normal that women hate sex after they’ve been coerced. In fact, your coerced “yes” was the result of abuse. So probably you don’t hate it, you just hate being abused. If you’ve been sexually coerced by your husband, you need support. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY.

Have you said yes but then later realized you’ve been lied to and manipulated and had you known the truth, you would have said no?

Said “yes” to sex out of guilt, obligation, fear, or exhaustion?

Have you said “yes” after saying no repeatedly?

Have you said “yes” to sex because it was easier to just get it over with, rather than deal with the sulking, anger, threats, and punishments?

When Women Hate Sex, But They Say Yes Anyway

“Consent is about when both people actively want to share touch.” Jane Gilmore

Your desire is everything when it comes to consent. If you don’t want to actively share touch with the other person involved, you are not giving your consent, no matter what else transpired.

When You Said Yes To Sex: What Consent is NOT

• Saying yes because you’ve been sleep deprived and will only be allowed sleep if you say yes
• When saying yes, after repeatedly saying “no”
• Saying yes out of fear of punishment
• Saying neither no or yes
• Freezing or going limp
• Saying “no” or “wait” after the sexual experience has begun
• Saying yes in order to protect children, pets, or others from violence and/or other forms of abuse

This is the Takeaway:

It’s not about giving or getting permission, it’s not about getting a yes.

Jane Gilmore, author and consent educator

If your husband or partner considers consent to have occurred after he has:

• deprived you of sleep
• sulked
• threatened you
• physically hurt you
• “persuaded” you after you have expressed that you are not interested
• continued to push you after you have said no
• promised to stop if you say no, but claims he didn’t hear you

Then You Are Not In A Safe Situation. You Are Experiencing Sexual Abuse

We know how devastating and confusing it is to learn the truth about consent when you have experienced marital rape, sexual coercion, and assault in your own committed relationship. We are here to help you. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

Our BTR.ORG Group Sessions are a safe place to process your trauma. Attend a session today.

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Transcript: Why Do So Many Women Hate Sex?

Anne: I am honored to have Jane Gilmore on today’s episode. She is an author, feminist, and consent educator. For over a decade, she’s been delivering consent and respectful relationships education in Australian schools. Welcome, Jane.

Jane: Thank you so much for having me.

Anne: We’re just going to start with consent. It’s something that we talk about on this podcast all the time, especially in conjunction with pornography use. Women hate sex when a woman is unaware of all the secret stuff her husband is doing, and he doesn’t give her the information to give consent, she’s not informed enough to give consent.

Jane: Yeah, because I think that’s important. Often when we talk about consent, people think of it as a binary thing. It’s a yes or a no. When we go into schools, talk to young people, but also when we’re doing adult education, it’s one of the first questions I ask.

And the answers are often gendered, so girls and women often talk about giving permission, when you give somebody permission to touch you. And boys and men often talk about it in terms of when you get permission. It’s interesting that non binary and queer people often have a much more nuanced understanding of it.

Cause consent is about when both people actively want to share touch. You’re suddenly framing it in a completely different way. It’s not about giving or getting permission. It’s not about getting a yes. And I certainly hear this a lot from both young people and adults. Where somebody might say yes, because they’re coerced, scared or pressured into it. That is one reason women hate sex. But what happens after that is not necessarily consensual.

Teaching Consent to Children

Jane: But if you’re thinking about it in terms of both people actively wanting to share something. That’s a completely different thing. Consent also applies to a whole range of different things that we do. So our organization also starts teaching consent in kindergartens. Obviously, you’re not talking to little kids about sex. When you’re three, consent is about sharing your teddy bear, or can I have a hug? Or do you want to go out and play? Go back to that definition: Do both people actively want this?

It’s a thing that three year olds can understand easily. Does your friend want to give you a hug? Does your friend want to share their teddy or play with their Lego? Not about whether they say yes, but whether they want to. And when you start with kids that young, by the time they’re 16, the concept of consent is really easy. But if they’ve never thought about consent in those terms before, it’s a much more difficult conversation.

Anne: This podcast is specifically for women in relationships with abusive men. So my listeners, when they’re thinking, well, I didn’t want to have it. Women hate sex because they are coerced. I didn’t want to do this, but I felt like if I didn’t, he was going to get angry. Or felt like if I didn’t, then he was going to blame me. And this idea that getting a yes as consent is dangerous in the hands of abusers. Because if it’s just a yes, I can lie to her, or subtly threaten her. As long as I’ve got that, yes, I’m good to go. Can you talk about that?

Manipulation & Coercion

Jane: When somebody thinks that consent is about getting a yes, regardless of how you get it, it’s one of the hallmarks of abuse, isn’t it? It’s making sure she can be blamed. Well, she said yes, so it’s not my fault. Regardless of why she said yes. If she said yes, because she was scared or because it was manipulation.

And now you’ve said yes, so now I can do anything I want because you said yes. So now it’s your fault. One of the hallmarks of abuse is making the victim the one to blame and removing blame from the perpetrator. So again, that deliberate misunderstanding of consent, as well. I got her to say yes, and understanding that it’s abusive and that what happens after that is not consensual.

Anne: Many women don’t recognize the abuse. They know it’s wrong. They don’t feel good about it, but they don’t want to call it abuse, because they think he didn’t mean to do it or it’s not on purpose. And that’s why women hate sex. So can you talk about intentional misuse?

Jane: The intentional misuse of consent is part of the manipulation. It’s also part of the abuse, because we tend to think of abuse as physically violent. And we often don’t recognize the emotional manipulation that is about making sure that the perpetrator of abuse can’t be blamed. You agreed to this, so if you can manipulate somebody into saying yes to something, you can make her believe it’s her fault. That ability to manipulate somebody into taking on the shame and blame for the abuse is key to maintaining that abusive relationship.

Why do women hate sex: Perpetrators see others as objects

Jane: The perpetrators of abuse don’t see their partner, even as a person. They don’t see them as an equal, somebody to share something with. They see them as objects. And by nature, you can’t share something with an object.

You have to impose it on them. In an equal relationship or a relationship with somebody you care about, think about, and understand as a person whose desires and needs matter as much as yours. You can’t force them to do something or manipulate them to do something that makes them uncomfortable. You can only do that in a relationship where you don’t see them as equal.

Anne: I often talk about how abusers are transactional. So they have transactionships. Healthy people are relational and they have relationships.

So for example, it’s not bad to explain to someone what you want and why you want it. I want to go to a movie. It would be fun. Would you like to go with me? We could leave at seven., there’s no manipulation. You’re willing to give the information honestly, and you’re willing to hear honest feedback because they’re equal to you. So you give them all the information they need. Women hate sex because they are manipulated.

Transactional vs Relational Dynamics

Anne: They say, Oh, 7 won’t work for me. They go back and forth in this relationship of mutual understanding and mutual agreement. Because abusers are transactional, they’re looking to complete a transaction. So they’ll say what they need to say to get the transaction done, to get the deal done.

If I tell her that she’s beautiful, and that I love her, and that I really care about her, even though she doesn’t know that I’m married, because I didn’t mention that. I can get her to continue dating me, and then maybe be intimate, and then I’ll ghost her, and she won’t even know what happened. And women hate sex because of this.

That’s a transaction. Basically, if I say this, this is what I’ll get. If I do this, this is what she’ll give me. It’s not relational. They’re not willing to meet someone where they are and give them the information they need to make a good decision for themselves. They’re not interested in the relationship.

Jane: Yeah, they’re looking to get something rather than share something. Yeah, I want to get this. sex, admiration, or respect, but I’m not willing to share it. I want something for me, not something for us. You know, we look for those red flags in those beginning times when it’s easier to leave. And that is one of those key ones. Are we sharing things? Is he trying to get something?

In the beginning with that love bombing stage, when you spent so much time together and were so connected. It’s always the part you’re trying to get back to, and every now and again, you’ll return to that for a little bit.

Love Bombing & Grooming

Jane: Then it goes back to the abuse.

Anne: Well, they can never go back to that time, because it’s not who he is. It wasn’t his character she was experiencing. It was a facade. Because it was love bombing. It was grooming. In the beginning, he was grooming to get. But then he got it, he got that thing. Then he’s just keeping it, but that does not take as much effort as it did in the beginning. He’ll never work that hard again, because now he has it.

So she’s trying to get back to more intense grooming more frequently, but she doesn’t realize that was not a good thing. It might have felt good to her, but it was not good for her. Because it wasn’t true. Women hate sex when they are betrayed.

Jane: And she also doesn’t realize that he’s not trying to get a relationship based on love and sharing. He’s trying to get to a point where she is completely within his control. So both people are trying to get to different things, and of course it doesn’t work. He might go back to love bombing if he thinks she’s about to leave. So he’ll either go full fury, I will control you and not let you leave. Or full love bombing, I love you so much that you can’t leave me when I love you like this.

Anne: A lot of women think, Oh, but he’s just weird, like two days a week and the other five days a week, he’s normal. And they don’t realize that those five days he’s grooming, and then he might get exhausted. Cause it’s hard to fake stuff for five days. Then the mask falls off for two days. And then he’ll put the mask on.

Why do women hate sex: Fear & Consent

Anne: That grooming part is also abusive.

Jane: Even if he’s being sweet, you’re still a little wary, you’re still always guarding, you’re still always checking. Because he can turn on a dime, and you never know when that’s going to happen. So that also part of the abuse is keeping you hypervigilant and walking on eggshells all the time. Again, if you’re looking for those signs, is this abusive? I’m not sure. If you never know how he’s going to react. Then you’re pretty sure that’s a sign he’s abusive because in a good, healthy relationship, being afraid is not part of it.

Anne: For my audience, if you’re thinking, well, I’m not afraid of my husband, let me submit that you might be afraid of them using pornography again. You might be afraid of finding out that they’re sexting, you might be afraid of finding out that he’s having an affair. So, even if you think, I’m not afraid of him punching me, or maybe I’m not afraid of him screaming in my face. Are you afraid of something? And consider that if you have fears. You can’t really consent, because the whole situation is threatening, and if there are threats. It’s coercion. Women hate sex if they are coerced.

Jane: And it’s also being afraid of contempt of somebody putting you down and shaming you and making you feel terrible about yourself. If I say something, is he going to tell me I’m stupid or worthless? Being afraid of contempt is also a sign of abuse.

Anne: And the contempt can be very subtle. It does not have to be the flat out like, I think you’re stupid. It can be like, really? Hmm. I’m not sure that’s true.

Comparing Healthy & Unhealthy Relationships

Anne: I’m never afraid of contempt from my sister or friends. They might disagree with me, but I don’t feel stupid. I’m never afraid.

Jane: That thing you said about your sister and friends, that’s a good guideline. Like if you’ve got a good relationship with a friend or family member with whom you feel comfortable and safe. And then compare that to how you feel with your boyfriend or husband. If you don’t have that same feeling of comfort and safety, and being able to be yourself, and not having to walk on eggshells all the time. Well, why not? What’s going on? What is it that you’re afraid of that makes you unable to relax and be yourself and be happy and comfortable around them?

Anne: There are healthy men out there that you would never be afraid they will lie to you again. Because they didn’t ever lie to you in the first place. So that fear of is this going to happen again? Am I going to find out again that he’s been using pornography? Am I going to find out again that he has a secret credit card or that he’s gambling? Women hate sex because of that insecurity.

There’s a fear that it’s going to happen because it happened one time. But with my healthy friends. It’s never happened one time. They’ve never lied to me about some serious thing that affects me greatly. Not even once.

Jane: Absolutely, people can make mistakes, right? You can have a bad day, you can have a squabble, something can go wrong, but there’s a huge difference between that and keeping those kinds of secrets.

Finally telling someone

Jane: Another good one, if you’re ashamed to tell people, Oh, I found he was cheating on me. He said this to me, and I don’t want to tell my close friends. That’s one of those moments that you have to think, well, hang on. Why? Because if you know your friend is going to be horrified, why is he doing this to you? Why is he making you feel like this? I remember saying this to a friend of mine recently. If he does something that you’re afraid to tell me, or that you’re ashamed to tell me, even if you don’t want to tell me, you need to know that’s a sign something is wrong.

Anne: Which is part of why I created the Betrayal Trauma Recovery daily group sessions. So that women can get on and start talking with other women. It’s a safe place Women hate sex if they are being abused.

Jane: Absolutely. And that, that feeling of shame is so corrosive. It does so much harm inside you to be holding those secrets. And knowing that you feel shame about it, trying to hold onto the idea that it’s not your fault and you didn’t do anything wrong. But when you feel ashamed of something happening in your marriage or relationship, you don’t tell people because of it. Again, it’s part of the abuse because it makes you feel like it’s your fault, like you’re doing something wrong and you’re not.

But that feeling of shame is hard to overcome. And then the longer it goes on, the harder it gets to say. After a year or two years, or even 10 years. Well, actually he’s been doing this to me for 10 years, and I didn’t tell you.

Why do women hate sex: Religious & Cultural Pressures

Jane: So having somewhere where you can finally say that out loud. And have someone say I believe you. And it’s not your fault is one of the most important moments I find in women who can finally recognize yes, this is abuse.

Anne: When it comes to consent with sex, I talk a lot about how the pornography addiction recovery community and religious community basically coerce women to have it with men. Women hate sex when they are coerced.

I’m actually religious, so I’m not like anti-religion. I’ll talk about the two different things, and then I’d love to hear your response on both. But I just want to give you a broad overview. The pornography addiction recovery industrial complex will say things like, well, he has these needs. So if he doesn’t have these needs met somewhere, he’s going to act out somewhere else. So it’s threatening, like you are obligated to give him sex because he has to have it apparently. And so if you don’t give it to him, where is he going to get it from?

And then there’s the religious overtones that you need to submit, that he is the head of your household. That in order for him to be faithful and obey the commandments, and not break the law of chastity, you need to have sex with him. Otherwise he will not be able to do it. If he’s not able to have it, it’s your fault that he breaks the commandments by having it with someone else. By masturbating and using pornography, because you were not available to him, and this is your duty.

Debunking Myths About Male Sexual Needs

Jane: It happens in many ways, in many circumstances. So say if I’m in schools, I’ll hear teenage girls talking to me about, well, he needs it. I don’t know if you have it in the U.S., but here, when I was a teenager, they used to call it blue balls.

Anne: Yeah, his balls are going to fall off. I have a medical issue and if you don’t help me with it, my balls are going to fall off. And that’s also just a lie. There’s no man on the planet that is going to drop dead from lack of sex. It is just not a thing. Women hate sex when they are deceived.

Jane: Exactly, it’s just not. You have to do this for me, because otherwise I’m going to be in pain. But if you go back to that definition of consent that we’re talking about at the beginning. Two people actively want to share touch, then that just doesn’t work. He is responsible for his behavior and choices. He’s got to be somebody you want to have it with. And that’s on him. It’s not on you to take responsibility for what he does.

It’s also based on the idea that women are the gatekeepers of sex, and men need it. And that’s just not true. Women like sex too. Women enjoy it, with good sex, and I mean consensual in that it’s shared and both people want it. Both people enjoy it. And if you’re not enjoying it, that’s a sign that he’s manipulating you into giving it.

Actions vs Words in Consent

Anne: I have a concern about this, because if an abuser listens to these conversations. They can parrot back this information and weaponize it. So I worry that women will be like, oh, well, he’s saying this, so check, check, check, I’m safe. Even if he’s saying all the right things, that doesn’t mean you need to want to do that. It’s okay if he says all the right things and you still don’t want to do it. It’s okay if he says all the right things and you still don’t feel comfortable. So to be in tune with, I call it your sacred internal warning system.

Watch his actions. If he says, “What you want is important too.” While he’s still plowing forward. No wonder women hate sex.

Jane: Absolutely, and you’re so right. It’s about what does he do? If the actions don’t match the words, if they’re saying, I care about what you want. This has to be consensual, but then they actually don’t care. It’s just a sales pitch. It’s manipulation, not actually caring about what you want, and then responding to it.

Anne: Even something like, I care what you want. Why don’t you tell me? And then she tells him, and then he says, well, is it my turn now? Can I tell you what I want? And he starts to tell you that what he needs trumps what you need. This isn’t some kind of competition where somebody wins. But if he is abusive and transactional, that is what he will think in his mind. He will think, she won because she said she had a headache, so we’re not having sex. Rather than thinking, oh, we’re deciding this together.

Why do women hate sex: Cognitive Dissonance in Abusive Relationships

Jane: Yes, exactly. Consent is not just about what you say. Consent can be non verbal. Notice somebody’s body language. Notice their expression, notice how they’re reacting. If somebody withdraws from you or turns their face away, or their body’s all stiffened up, what does that mean? Actions and words have to match, because that’s also part of abuse, which is saying one thing and doing another.

So it creates what they call cognitive dissonance, where you don’t understand what’s going on. Because he’s saying all the right things, but something else is happening. Is that my fault? What’s going on? Why did that happen? That happened because he was manipulating you.

Anne: His grooming is so good before sex. Women genuinely feel they actively want it, not knowing that they’ve been groomed, not knowing that they’ve been lied to. And once he gets what he wants, he’s like, Oh, I don’t have to act like that anymore. I don’t have to act nice. Because now I’m not trying to get consent. And that can feel confusing for women. Because it’s like everything was so good and delightful. And then we had sex. And then after we had it, he just started acting weird. Women hate sex when they are deceived.

Jane: Women who’ve just had that experience where they feel that intimacy and want to maintain that closeness are like, but what happened? We were feeling so close. The thing that can sometimes happen with emotional manipulation is you lose sight of what you want.

Losing Sight of Personal Needs

Jane: So if you’re talking about consent of both people actively wanting to share touch. The manipulation takes you away from yourself, and all the focus goes on them. What does he want? What does he need? Why is he doing this? Even if he’s never physically violent. He doesn’t even shout at you. It’s not overt, but you’ve lost sight of what you need, because all you’re thinking about is what he needs. And you lose touch with what you want.

All your focus is on him. And if you forget about your needs, that you need to be loved, respected and cared about. How do I feel? What do I need? I want to not be so exhausted all the time by wondering if I can trust him.

Anne: Totally, you need someone who is trustworthy, and he’s not exhibiting those types of behaviors, yet he’s telling you. Hey, I am a safe person. I care about you. I’ll go to therapy and fix this. I think there’s a good analogy for this. Let’s pretend like someone has Ebola. And they’re like, I am. actively going to try to get treatment for this. And you’re like, great. You would not have sex with them right then. They have Ebola. You would be like, once you don’t have Ebola anymore, you no longer have a contractible disease. Then I will have sex with you. Women hate sex when their partners are untrustworthy.

I want women to realize that if they say to you, I’m going to go to therapy, I’m going to get better, and I’m going to change. Be like, great, you’ve got Ebola, and good luck to you. Look me up when you don’t have it anymore.

Trust & Instincts

Jane: Right? Like if you’re sitting there going, well, I’ve got Ebola and I promise I’m going to go to the hospital. But let’s just have a quickie before I go.

Anne: Yeah.

Jane: No one’s gonna do that.

Anne: No, so if they say to you, yeah, I will get better, and in the meantime, let’s continue having sex. Be like, no, you have a contagious communicable disease. I should not have it with them today. Women hate sex when their husbands betray them.

Jane: You go off to the hospital, you see the doctor, you take all the antibiotics, whatever you need. And when the doctor says you’re healthy, come back and tell me about it. And then we’ll talk.

Anne: Right, and when you come back, I’m going to look you in the eyeballs and see if you’ve got any signs of Ebola. This happens a lot in the pornography addiction recovery community. So he’ll go to, like a CSAT therapist, who’s like a sexual addiction recovery therapist. And he’ll groom the therapist, and then the therapist will be like, wow, he is doing great. So if she asks his therapist, Hey, is he healthy enough now to have sex with? It is, like, 99 percent possible that the therapist will say, Oh yeah, he’s doing so well, he’s healthy now, he’s doing great.

And he is not. You have to trust your instincts, because he could give you the password, and he’s got a secret phone somewhere that you don’t know about. So trying to follow up with a third party always makes me nervous.

Why do women hate sex: Polygraphs & Trusting your instincts

Anne: There are women who even require their husbands to do a polygraph, they think, Oh great. He had a polygraph. So now he’s safe. And I’m like, no, no, no, you don’t need to check his phone. You don’t need to do a polygraph. Just get really, really quiet with yourself and ask your sacred internal warning system. Do I feel emotionally safe, psychologically safe? Do I feel any fear at all? It’s my opinion, that is more accurate than asking their therapist.

Sorry, I’m ranting, Jane. I apologize. But if you have to get a polygraph to be like, is this person safe to have intimacy with? Like, is that not the biggest giant red flag? Like that is alarming. Women hate sex when their husbands lie to them.

Jane: Absolutely, one of the reasons women often go to those extraordinary lengths. Like let me check your browser, let me talk to your therapist, take this polygraph, because the nature of abuse is that you stop trusting yourself.

Trusting your instincts, as you said, is one of the safest things you can do. So if you can just have that moment by yourself and think, how do I feel? I don’t trust him. If that feeling is there, if that feeling keeps going, if every time you stop and have that quiet moment, do I trust myself with him? Do I feel safe with him? Do I believe him? And the answer is no. Then how will that get better? You’ll never trust them.

Anne: Another thing that came to mind with that was that many women, when they get quiet, don’t want to get divorced. I don’t want my family to fall apart. I don’t want a custody battle.

Wanting to be in a marriage partnership

Anne: Women hate sex when they can’t trust their partners. She doesn’t want to have it with him. But she wants to remain married. And she feels like if she doesn’t have it, then she’s not going to get what she wants, which is marriage.

Jane: I understand that I want my marriage and my family to stay together. I don’t want to be a single mother. In those quiet moments, when you think about what you want. I want a marriage, but why? I want a marriage to be a partnership.

And I want to share my life with somebody. I want to share parenting, living and working. I want to share all those things with somebody. If the person you’re with is not somebody you can share with, it’s not somebody you can feel like you have that equal sharing of your lives. And your thoughts and feelings with somebody.

And you know in that quiet moment that you can’t trust him, and you’ve never been able to trust him. If that’s what you want, that good marriage, being in a good marriage gives you that. And if he can’t be in a good marriage, then what you want is not something that’s ever going to happen with him. You might technically have the marriage never really having what you want.

Financial Dependence & Abuse

Anne: It might be genuine concerns of financial abuse. You’re thinking, there’s no way I could take care of my kids. There could be legitimate concerns that you think, are you kidding me? If I didn’t have him, I don’t even know where I would live. I don’t know how I would function. Then how can you improve your own personal financial situation? That’s not something that you have to depend on him for.

Maybe today, but like tomorrow, you don’t. And so start taking a look at the reasons why. This will also help you recognize that you feel dependent on him, and he wants you to feel that way, but you are not. If he’s an attorney and makes a good living, you can also go to law school. You can also become an attorney. All the things that you feel like you cannot get by yourself, you can. Women hate sex when their husbands don’t treat them right.

Jane: Absolutely, and they’re real fears. It’s a tough world out there. And I would never dismiss it as, Oh no, you’ll be fine. You’ll get a job. It’s not that easy. Women are always so much stronger than they think. It feels impossible if you’re in that kind of marriage where you feel financially dependent. No, I could never look after myself or my kids without him. It’s amazing what you can do.

Anne: Yeah, why am I staying and how can I replace those things with something else? If you’re like, why am I staying? And you think because of the finance stuff, what could you do to replace that? Not with another guy? No, no, no, no. Not by dating someone else, no. Are there career options? Is there a grant?

Why do women hate sex: Building Independence

Anne: Think about the reason you’re staying, and ask is there an alternative? That is not a man that can actually meet this need. Because if you think, I need financial stability. And then you replace it with another man. You are also transactional. So rather than having a human replace that need, which would put you in a transactionship. How can you provide that need for yourself? As long as you can meet all your basic needs, emotional, psychological, financial, physical, then you’re not going to be so vulnerable to transactions. Women hate sex when they are abused.

Because an abusive guy likes that. He’s like, great. She’s vulnerable. She cannot meet her own needs. This is a transaction waiting to happen. So if you want a relationship because you need financial stability, why not just get financial stability?

Jane: Exactly, and your point about it not being another man. It is really, really difficult to go from an abusive relationship to a healthy relationship. Because as you say, you’re groomed to expect a particular kind of response. It’s not that you can never be in a good, healthy relationship again. You can obviously, but you need a break.

You need a bit of time to recalibrate and be around people you’re actually good with. And get used to having those kind of signals. And then you can meet somebody, but it’s really difficult to be in an abusive, manipulative, controlling relationship. Then in a healthy one, because you’re so conditioned to those responses. If you need help, like going back to friends and family is different. But bouncing from one man to another, that’s not giving you that stability at all.

Seeking Help & Support

Anne: No, and it’s absolutely fine to get help. You’re going to need help. But that’s a different situation to say, I need help while I get on my feet. I need childcare while I finish this certification, so that I can be a radiologist tech. That’s different than I have financial needs, and the 100 percent way I’m going to meet these is through another person. Rather than, I’m going to create some independence so that I don’t have to have transactionships anymore. I can have a relationship because all my basic needs are met. And I don’t have anything to trade.

Jane: Exactly, I’m there because I want to be, not because I have to be, or because I’m being manipulated or forced into it.

Anne: Jane. You’re amazing. Thank you for pondering with me. Why do so many women hate sex? Likely because it’s not mutual, because their husband has coerced them. And because consent hasn’t been part of the picture. Thank you so much for sharing your insights today.

Jane: It was great. Thank you so much.