Porn is abuse. Just ask the women who are harmed by their husband’s pornography use. Countless sex addiction therapists, clergy, and mainstream media continue to perpetuate the destructive lie that porn isn’t abuse. Listen to Kathleen’s story about why her husband’s porn use was absolutely abusive to her.

If you need support check out our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session Schedule.

They say I’m too extreme when I call pornography ABUSE. Think about it, women go through years of psychological and emotional abuse and sexual coercion. Their own husband is lying to them and lying about them. If that’s not extreme, what is? I think that is extreme. It’s abuse. There’s no other word for it.

Anne Blythe, Founder of Betrayal Trauma Recovery

Transcript: Porn Is Abuse: Emotional & Psychological Abuse

Anne: Kathleen a member of our community is on today’s podcast. She’s going to share her story. Welcome, Kathleen.

Kathleen: Hi Anne. Thanks for having me on today.

Anne: We’re grateful that you’re brave enough to share your story to help other women and sharing your story. It helps us to feel heard. We’re talking about how porn is abuse. So why don’t you start with your backstory? What was your situation?

Kathleen: I guess from day one of my marriage, I felt like something wasn’t right and I could never put my finger on. We were, I thought, happily married, had a child. Then shortly after my second child was born, I just felt that something wasn’t right.

Discovering Pornography Addiction

Kathleen: I found out, unfortunately, that my husband was into pornography, and that was just devastating. I felt like everything was over. Although I didn’t want to end the marriage, I felt like my perfect world with my newer marriage, my two sweet children, our sweet little family was just ruined.

It just was not what I thought it was. We immediately tried to get help. He, unfortunately, was lying to me about the cause of his use of pornography. He blamed it on my pregnancy with my first and second child. I later found out that he was addicted to porn since he was a child. For years this went on with him dabbling in help. I just kept with it, trying to stay strong, trying to stay in the marriage, I never even really thought about leaving the marriage. I didn’t realize his porn use is abusive to me.

We kept going and we had our good times and then our bad times. When things were bad, they were very bad. Things were good sometimes, but it was really not much to hold on to. So, we went on like this for probably fourteen to fifteen years until we got help together. Through working with them over about a two year period, I started to see, that my husband just did not want to do the work to get better.

Which made us pretty much come to a halt. We separated about two summers ago for three months. He was able to come back and about two months after that, he was out for good. Since then, he blamed everything on me.

Porn Is Abuse: Realizing The Emotional And Psychological Abuse

Anne: Let’s talk about those years of thinking he has a porn addiction and going down that route for a little while. Did you ever consider that you were dealing with an emotional and psychological abuser?

Kathleen: I had no idea.

Anne: And did anyone ever mention it to you? Like he’s using porn, have you ever considered is he abusive?

Kathleen: No, never. If anything, it was the opposite. It was, let’s help him. Let’s see what we could do to help him.

Anne: Or he’s such a good guy. We can’t understand why he’s doing this thing. Let’s get him some help.

Kathleen: Absolutely. Yeah. Or his past, you know, he had a rough upbringing, so this is why he’s doing it.

Anne: Right. Yeah. I often say, I know several people who have had a really super hard upbringing and they’re not abusers. So it’s not really a reason to be abusive

Challenges With Clergy Who Don’t Recognize Abuse

Anne: . He went for years to a well known Catholic counselor and men’s purity groups. Do you feel like they really understand that porn is abuse? And that his pornography use is abusive to you, his wife?

Kathleen: Absolutely not. We started off with this one counselor that was the well known Catholic counselor in porn expertise and I felt like I was blamed in this situation and I just bailed quickly. Something in my gut told me, get away. Then, the last year or so, I heard that he might have changed the way he helped women and couples. I decided, let me give it another try. It was at least 15 years later. Unfortunately it was just the same thing.

It was one session and done. No, there’s no change. It’s very unfortunate because these seem to be the people we turn to when you have a problem. It just causes more trauma for the women.

Anne: Right, what are some of the things that the priests said to you or did that was so traumatizing that blamed you?

Kathleen: In my parish? Yeah, so my parish priest actually supported me.

Anne: When you mean support, when you say supported, do you mean financially?

Kathleen: Not financially, there’s really no financial support. It was just an emotional support. He listened, he understood. He suggested I might have to separate with my husband, which I took that very seriously. Maybe four months later, we separated. After my husband went and talked to the pastor and the parish priest, both decided to take sides with him, which I don’t even know why a side had to be taken.

Pornography Is Abuse: Taking Sides

Anne: I can tell you why.

Kathleen: Go ahead.

Anne: A side does need to be taken. A neutral party will always benefit the perpetrator. The problem is, most of the time, they side with the perpetrator. instead of the victim. Because in an abuse situation, there’s a perpetrator and a victim. If you stay neutral and say, well, she’s got her side of the story and he has his side of the story and the truth is somewhere in the middle, that means that you believe what he is saying a little bit.

Maybe she’s lying a little bit rather than recognizing, no, this is a perpetrator. He’s going to do everything he can to avoid accountability and blame his victim. And a victim who’s telling the truth, who’s trying to get to safety. So, it’s really important for people to take sides, but they need to take sides with the right party.

They need to protect the victim. Any type of neutrality or even thinking, well, he couldn’t be that bad, is really harmful to the victim. Since pornography use is abusive to partners, taking the right side is important.

Secondary Abuse And Community Reactions

Kathleen: Right. And that’s a lot of what I’ve been experiencing. He’s been getting into the ear of anybody who knew us and telling them how horrible I have been. Getting back to the priest, the priest was the one who was spreading that I was a liar and I have manipulated the entire situation. Anybody in this situation that I was in would have taken the advice he gave. Which, I don’t even know what help he was talking about.

Anne: People don’t understand that an abuser claiming that his victim is the abuser is abuse.

Kathleen: Absolutely. So, this abuse has not only extended to him lying to everybody about you and blaming you, but also roping third party people. Like a priest in your parish or other people, to also abuse you through blaming you.

Kathleen: That’s exactly what’s happening now. I can honestly say that this secondary abuse is way worse than what I experienced directly from my husband.

Anne: Why would you say that is? I agree with you. I’ve experienced it as well. And I agree. But for our listeners, in your opinion, why do you think that is?

Kathleen: Well, I think, first of all, it’s my own healthy pride. I want to be an upstanding Christian and a good person. Now people see me as a liar and a manipulator, which I’m not. The other part of it is that, I’ve lost my community. I had to leave my church and go to a different church. It’s very hard because I feel like a lot of people look down their nose at me and I just try to hold my head high and have faith in God to get me through.

Pornography Is Abuse: Recognizing The Full Extent

Anne: When did you realize that all of these years of Something’s not quite right and he’s got this porn issue. When did you realize that was just flat out emotional and psychological abuse and sexual coercion?

Kathleen: I always knew that it wasn’t right. I knew it wasn’t healthy, but I didn’t realize it was abuse until after our second separation. When surfing the internet one night looking at abuse and decided to call our local abuse shelter.

I called and said, I don’t know if I’m being abused. From the information that I gave them about what happened to me, they assured me that I was absolutely being abused. They also helped me to see that other behaviors that had happened in our marriage were abuse that I didn’t even realize were wrong. I mean, I’ve been emotionally, psychologically, financially, and even physically abused. I didn’t realize I was also being physically abused.

Anne: Did that shock you because you’d never called an abuse specialist before, right? You’d always called maybe a marriage counselor or, some type of clergy or some kind of pornography addiction specialist. Were you shocked that immediately right out of the gate, these people never talked to you before? We’re like, yeah, this is super abusive and that you’d never heard it from anyone else.

Kathleen: I was, and I felt it was such a disadvantage. Going through this, it was always focusing on his porn addiction, and I was always searching for pornography addiction for spouses, the help for that, and I couldn’t find anything. But all of the behaviors surrounding it make it abuse, porn is abuse.

Finding Support and Betrayal Trauma Recovery

Kathleen: It was mind boggling and maddening to know that there was nothing out there. Especially with the, growing numbers of pornography abuse, the only thing I could find for women was that. Sometimes women abuse porn as well, but that wasn’t my situation. Somebody mistreated me in a marriage where pornography was used and was part of it, porn is abuse.

I never really wanted to go to marriage counseling for some reason. I knew in my gut, it was not a marriage issue. It was a porn issue and his problem . So I was grateful for that, but it was really hard to find help.

Anne: When did you find Betrayal Trauma Recovery?

Kathleen: I think I found it probably about a year and a half ago, maybe two years ago. Just happened to find BTR online and saw that there was The BTR Podcast and religiously started to listen because it was the only place that really got it.

Anne: What did you think after years of the, help him, be gentle with him because he has these childhood problems. Let’s try not to trigger him, don’t shame him, are you a good wife? Are you giving him sex when he needs it? What did you think after coming to BTR and listening? What did that feel like for you?

Kathleen: I just felt like there was a place that understood what it really was and I knew that it was the right place to get the information that I needed to educate myself.

Porn Is Abuse: Lying, Manipulation, Gaslighting

Anne: It’s like you know it in your gut, but you don’t have words for it. You don’t have a place to process it appropriately. If you try to process it with the pornography addiction people and they tell you, no, it’s you and you need to be patient then it halts your processing, it stops you. It’s like floating around, but you can’t ever grab it. It’s like foggy and you can’t quite get out of that fog.

Kathleen: Right. I always knew, I always had the gut feeling and I would thankfully go with my gut feeling, but I could never put my finger on where things were going wrong. I mean, I never caught him using porn again, I always was asking myself the question is he using or is he not? He claims sobriety. But based on what I know now and looking back, I know he was still using. I know he was because I know the way he behaved, it’s obvious because porn is abuse. I know the way that he kept me at a distance.

He wouldn’t engage with me at all emotionally, which devastated me. It was like I was a stranger in our house, but outside he acted like husband of the year. He would get coffee for me in front of other people. He would act like he was just so in love when he was with me in public, which is part of the reason why people just don’t understand the situation and they believe him that I’m the liar and the manipulator.

Secrecy Of Porn & Abuse

Anne: When you changed your outward talk from, porn is abuse, did the third party people get more angry with you? Are they like, whoa, wait a minute. You’ve said he’s a porn addict. Now you’re claiming he’s an abuser? Did they get more upset?

Kathleen: Well, not really because nobody knew he was a porn user. That was secret. It was my own private secret that I lived in. My family didn’t know. Our friends didn’t know. Nobody knew. I didn’t tell people. I was very much ashamed that was in our marriage.

Anne: Okay, did you tell people when you recognized it was abuse, did you start saying, he’s abusive?

Kathleen: Once we were separated for the second time and it was pretty much out there that we were no longer together. Yes. I told people that he had abused pornography and that he was abusive. I was trying to get myself to safety.

My family is so supportive, tremendously supportive, even more than I even thought that they could be. I’ve had friends that I wasn’t that close with, but they understood because of their own experiences through their life. They are like a rock to me, but then a lot of people that I thought I could count on, just disappeared or sided with him.

People Who Are Uneducated About Abuse Don’t Know That Porn Is Abuse

Anne: Yeah. I’ve seen that happen too. It’s really interesting. Even a couple of friends that we had that her husband is also a porn user have decided to side with my ex. They’re still married. I wonder if they think, well, if we talk to Anne, she’s so intent on saying porn is abuse, maybe our marriage would be in jeopardy, so we don’t really want to go down that route.

I’m not sure why they’ve decided to do that, but he’s still exhibiting abusive behaviors from my perspective, but of course they can’t see that. Why would you want to be friends with an abuser? That makes no sense to me,

Kathleen: Right.

Anne: Also I think we can clearly see that they’re lying and manipulating people, but they can’t see it.

Kathleen: No, and there is a part of me that has a little sympathy for the third party people. I believed my husband’s lies for years. I mean, my whole relationship was based on lies.

Anne: Yep, and if we couldn’t see it, they don’t even live with him. Of course it would be hard for them to see it too.

Kathleen: Right, he’s good at lying.

Anne: Good at manipulation, good at grooming, really.

Kathleen: Absolutely.

Anne: A lot of women are hoping that their relationship will work out and hoping that once he’s confronted about his abusive behaviors he will get into some type of program and get help.

Importance of Truth & Full Disclosure

Anne: If they go down the pornography addiction recovery route, many CSAT programs do what is known as a full disclosure. Where the abuser is supposed to outline all of his sexual indiscretions, but doesn’t necessarily include all abuse episodes. Since you went down that route for a little while, did you ever have a quote unquote full disclosure with the help of a pornography addiction specialist?

Kathleen: No, unfortunately I did not. Anything that I found out about my husband was either me finding out by catching him or him over the years, basically, drip feeding me information and I would figure things out.

Anne: You say unfortunately. Is that something that you think would have helped you or why did you say unfortunately?

Kathleen: I say unfortunately because without any truth, there is no basis for your relationship and I never received truth. That’s part of the reason or a main reason why my marriage fell apart. If he was truthful with me, I feel like maybe we could have fixed things and worked on it better.

Anne: A lot of people get a full disclosure, but it’s not a full disclosure. So there are times where they claim to have told the whole truth. But it’s not the full truth. And that, fake full truth is very difficult for victims because they think, oh, finally we have the whole truth.

Discovering The Truth Is Difficult

Anne: But they don’t. The other thing I think is interesting is, fake histories that they might give as excuses. I am not about to say that your husband wasn’t actually abused, but some of them do say things like that as an excuse. For example, I know of one abuser who told his victim that he was sexually abused by a neighbor, but she is now 100 percent convinced that he sexually abused the neighbor.

Kathleen: I believe there could be some truth to that. I took what my husband told me with a grain of salt, but he said he was abused, I took it seriously to protect my children.

Anne: Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s one thing that’s difficult to know when you’re dealing with an abusive and manipulative man who is willing to lie at all costs, is that truth that you think you know might not be the truth at all. This is why porn is abuse.

A full disclosure might not be a full disclosure. I want to give women who think, I wish I could have gotten a full disclosure and he would have told me the truth. If someone does not want to tell you the full truth, they might pretend to give it to you.

That might be as harmful as not knowing anything. When we’re dealing with someone who lies at this scale, What worries me is the fake truth that women think that they receive and then they feel safe because they feel like they’ve received it all when it’s just the tip of the iceberg.

Porn Is Abuse Because Of The Lies

Kathleen: That’s a good point and I think that with my husband, the way he is, nothing that ever came out of his mouth to me was truthful. Early on, I did pray to God to let me know what I needed to know. I guess I’ll just be grateful that I know what I know and that’s all I need to know.

Anne: Isn’t that interesting. As women of faith who decided to divorce, can we talk about your decision to divorce or are you divorced?

Kathleen: Not officially. I actually separated from my husband with the intent for him to go get help. Through that time, he chose to go live with his, suspected abuser, or at least who he claims abused him. He went to live with him for over a year. It was his brother.

Anne: His brother. Okay. So he chooses to go live with the person who he has told you abused him?

Kathleen: Yes, which was a huge red flag to me.

Because he claimed this, but then went to live with him. Then he decided about a year ago that he wanted to file for divorce.

Anne: That sounds really similar to my story, by the way. My ex claimed that he was abused by his parents and that his parents were really abusive, but hangs out with them all the time, without saying that their behaviors have changed. There is no claim, they’re totally different now.

Navigating Community Judgment And Isolation

Kathleen: Right now I’m really struggling with the community thing. It’s really tough to live in a community of people. It’s even where I work. The school that I teach at is where my children attend and it’s part of a small Catholic community. There I am working amongst people who think I’m the liar and manipulator and the marriage ruiner. So, it’s tough.

Anne: That is really, really hard. I am very sorry. I pray often that the truth is known to people somehow. There are days, do you ever do this? Where you read the local newspaper, thinking that you’ll see him in the newspaper? Do you ever do that?

Kathleen: I feel like someday I will hear that he has like either a DUI or was arrested or something.

Anne: Yeah.

Kathleen: He works at a local high school, so. Always worried about that as well.

Anne: It’s so strange to think that someone who has not taken any accountability is still just walking around. Not only just walking around, but affecting your life at such a level. Especially when you are the victim of his abuse without people really acknowledging or being compassionate or empathetic about your situation. Instead, being more judgmental, it feels more isolating.

Kathleen: Right, yeah, it does. Then, you get your wishy washy people who say, I don’t want to choose a side. That’s probably one of the worst things you can say to somebody who’s abused. Because it’s like, I don’t take you seriously.

Siding With The Abuser

Anne: Yeah, I don’t believe you. I confront people about that. I would not recommend it, by the way. But I say, you need to pick a side. Because I’m a victim of abuse, porn is abuse, and he’s a perpetrator. Would you like to stand with a victim and stop enabling a perpetrator, or not?

Kathleen: Right.

Anne: They don’t like that one bit. People feel very uncomfortable about that. Then they think, Oh, she really is crazy.

Kathleen: It’s amazing how their crazy look makes us look more crazy.

Anne: Instead of thinking, Oh, they don’t like us, or they don’t like what we say about abuse, or they think we’re going too far when we call these guys abusers.

I think it’s more strategic to have a surprised posture, in your head. You don’t want to like insult people, like, that’s surprising to me. I didn’t know that you were here from 1830. In a time machine and that you didn’t know abusers do this and that what you’re saying is an extension of his abuse. Well, weird.

I mean it’s more strategic to have an attitude or an energy about us that is more surprise than traumatized. It’s impossible to not be traumatized when someone says something triggering, that’s obviously harmful, that’s not empathetic, or not caring at all. It’s impossible not to be hurt by that.

I wonder if we all took this, I’m shocked. A therapist wrote and said, I don’t agree with BTR’s model. I don’t think it’s abusive. So I can’t associate with you. My first email to him back was like, I’m so sorry. That makes sense. I wish you the best.

Understanding Abuse And Infidelity

Anne: Then I thought, wait a minute. I’m not going to write this. I’m writing, Oh, I’m really surprised to hear that you don’t think that lying and manipulation are emotional and psychological abuse. That’s what I wrote. He wrote back and said, Oh, I do. I do recognize that they’re abuse. I just don’t agree with what BTR says. And I’m like, Hmm? He said, I don’t think porn is abuse, is what he said. This is a very prominent CSAT therapist out there.

Kathleen: Wow.

Anne: Who said, I just don’t think porn is abuse. And I was like, Okay, whatever.

Kathleen: That’ll leave me to believe. Well, what’s going on in your world? Why are you, defending it?

Anne: Yeah. Why would anyone think that viewing someone abusing isn’t participating in abuse in some way? Or at the very least sending your sexual energy somewhere other than your wife. What do you want to call that? If you don’t want to call it abuse.

Kathleen: I call that infidelity.

Anne: Infidelity is also abusive, right? Why are you so afraid of the word abuse?

Kathleen: I guess because it’s so strong and so many people think of it as hitting their wife. It’s so just extreme to call something abuse. I think that’s part of the problem. People need education on it.

Anne: What you went through is extreme. To say that, it’s too extreme to call it abuse. You went through years of psychological and emotional abuse and sexual coercion. You are still a victim of abuse in your community from a perpetrator who is talking to your community about you and lying about you.

The Ongoing Struggle With Abuse

Anne: If you don’t call that extreme, what is? In terms of the way it affects you on a daily basis, that is extreme. It’s abuse. There’s no other word for it.

Kathleen: Right.

He’s still able to be in contact with me, unfortunately, because of our children, which leads the door open for him to continue to abuse me.

Anne: Exactly. You do your best to set boundaries, you do your best to heal, all those things that are healthy. It’s not impossible. You will live an amazing life, and things will get better for you over time. But they don’t understand that there’s no way to stop him from abusing you.

Kathleen: Right. It’s a shame because, our judicial system and even co-parent counseling, they just don’t understand. And it’s difficult because the boundaries that you set up are torn down or changed because you have to follow.

Anne: The parenting plan or something.

Kathleen: Yeah. Parenting plan or some kind of legal plan.

Anne: This is why I created The Living Free Workshop. Have you ever talked to the legal system or your attorney about being emotionally and psychologically abused and you need a parallel parenting plan?

Kathleen: He is very well aware. We just started a second co-parent counseling and I do want to ask if we could do a parallel parenting plan.

Anne: Yeah, it’s a difficult situation, and it’s ongoing, divorce doesn’t stop the abuse. It can protect us from a lot of things, but it can’t stop the abuse outright. So that’s what’s really difficult. And so many victims now are praying and praying and praying for justice all over the world.

Faith And Frustration In the Face Of Abuse

Anne: It feels like we pray and pray and pray and that our prayers aren’t answered.

Kathleen: It’s kind of like any relationship. There are times I feel like God is right by my side and that’s what gets me through the day. Then there are times that I’m asking, “Lord, where are you? I don’t feel you.” So, it’s hard, I always have faith in our Lord, I know He is there, but to feel Him just makes it so much more doable to get through the situation.

Kathleen: It’s tough, I couldn’t do it without my faith, I couldn’t do it without God, and I am grateful for that, but it’s hard, and I too pray for truth, I’m like, Lord, I need truth to come out soon. I need it soon. So, hasn’t been answered yet, but I know that God is always working in mysterious ways. I’m just living in hope that it will come out at some point.

Anne: Yeah, I had a discussion with God the other day. He was like, I answer so many of your prayers. You just don’t notice because you’re focused on these other ones, you know, kind of like that. And I was thinking, but I don’t care about those other ones. These are the ones I want you to answer. Answer them now. Why are you not answering them? I’m so mad at you.

Hopes For Divine Intervention

Anne: It is frustrating to feel like he helped me with this and he helped me with that, but why can’t he help me so I don’t have to have any more contact with my abuser, which is a really big thing.

Kathleen: Right, That’s one of my prayers as well. I find it going to, like, sinful thoughts sometimes, which I try not to do.

Anne: Like him getting hit by a bus?

Kathleen: Totally, it is an accurate answer, it also, to me would be protection for my children because they are abused as well.

Anne: Exactly, yeah, I wonder about all those Old Testament stories of the wicked being smitten. I don’t know, but I know that the best we can do, if we’re women of faith, is to be obedient. Obedient to the commandments and do the best we can under a very difficult situation.

Kathleen: Right, and hopefully in God’s time, it will all come out.

Anne: If you could go back in time and share with your younger self what would you tell her?

Kathleen: I guess to go with your gut feeling. If you are doubting anything. Don’t second guess it. Look into it a bit more, be sure of who you marry and spend the rest of your life with.

Educating Future Generations

Anne: It’s interesting though, if you don’t know what you’re looking for, you could spend time with them and not see it. We all spent years with our abuser and we didn’t recognize we were being abused. That’s why it’s important to me that women know that porn is abuse.

Kathleen: Right. And that is what happened. And I had some odd dreams that happened and I pretty much ignored them. Which I wish I didn’t do.

Anne: Yeah, when you have no context for it, it’s difficult to see.

Anne: That’s one of the goals of Betrayal Trauma Recovery is to educate women all over the world about abuse, about what it looks like so that we can educate our children, so if they have a dream, they have context for what they’re experiencing.

Kathleen: Right. Yeah, hopefully it’ll be easier for my children down the road.

Anne: Kathleen, thank you so much for being brave and sharing your story.

Kathleen: Anne, thank you for the opportunity to share my story. It’s, definitely helpful to know there are other women out there that understand, and I’m not alone in this.

Anne: You are not. There are lots of us. So, welcome to the club no one ever wanted to be a part of.

Kathleen: Right, thanks for the welcome.