Whether it’s objectifying one human being through domestic abuse or many through human trafficking, dehumanizing women is a despicable act that Betrayal Trauma Recovery continues to speak out against. Anne Basham, CEO of Anti-Trafficking International (ATI), joins Anne to dive deep into the correlations between pornography use, domestic abuse, and human trafficking.
Transcript: Sex Trafficking & Abusive Men
Anne: We have Anne Basham on today’s episode. Anne has worked in both the legislative and executive branches of the federal government as well as government relations in the private sector. Where she advocated on behalf of human rights such as violence against women, child welfare, human trafficking and genocide. Most recently Ms. Basham was the senior advisor at the Department of Justice for Victims of Crime.
Anne B. helped develop strategies to help victims of human trafficking, sexual assault, and violence against women and children. This is why she is passionate about empowering children, parents, and frontline responders to effectively recognize and respond to human trafficking. Welcome Anne Basham.
Anne B.: Thank you so much for having me.
Anne: Before this episode, we talked a little about how trafficking and grooming intersect with narcissism. And the type of abuse that I talk about on this podcast all the time, all day long, every episode. So as we talk about trafficking, where you see some overlaps.
I would like you to bring that out of the woodwork for our listeners. Since all of our listeners are, or were married to men who exploit women. So I want both of us to remember that. So we can always bring it back to our listeners, and what they can do, and even how it can help them in their own situations.
Intersection of Trafficking and Narcissism
Anne: Let’s talk about what human trafficking is, and then what grooming is. Because I talk about grooming on this podcast about what men do to their partners, trying to make them look like a good guy. Talk about grooming in the context of human trafficking
Anne B.: Yeah, so there’s definitely a lot of crossover. So grooming really is conditioning someone to do something that is not within their nature. This can obviously happen in a marriage, as well as in trafficking. That’s one of the crossovers. But in human trafficking, there’s a big misconception that human trafficking is mostly someone coming and kidnapping a child off your front lawn.
That is not how human trafficking usually happens in America. Usually it’s grooming. It’s a boyfriend at a high school who appears like a wonderful guy. He may even appear like a wonderful guy to the parents, and he lures her in. And conditions her slowly over time to either do things she doesn’t want to do through coercion or force, or then he threatens her.
For example, it’s video recording sexual acts and then threatening to put them on the internet, threatening to show them to peers. It could be physical threats of violence against her or her family. That’s how trafficking starts. It’s really through coercion, fraud or force. But it happens through the mechanism almost always of grooming instead of straight kidnapping.
Anne: That’s super important for our listeners. I have talked to many women in our community who have been filmed by their husband. For example, he put a camera in the shower and then uploaded it to the internet for porn. Or filmed them secretly while they had sex. So if she never finds out about it, is that still considered trafficking?
Legal Definitions Of Trafficking
Anne B.: So the definition of trafficking is, it involves money. Trafficking uses fraud or coercion, and then attaches money to it. So for example, you can be groomed in all sorts of situations. But when it’s trafficking, you’re actually exchanging goods. The underpinning of human trafficking is greed. Think of it like drug trafficking – it’s very similar. How can we monetize a person as a product and get money for them, and that’s what’s underneath.
Anne: So if a man secretly filmed his wife in the shower or having sex, and put it on the internet and sold it as porn. That would be trafficking?
Anne B.: That’s a really interesting question. If he films it with the intent of making money, that can cross the line into sex trafficking. Trafficking by definition has to do with an exchange of money. Legally, for it to be trafficking, there must be a sexual act.
So if she’s in the shower and he videos her, puts it on the internet and sells it, it’s probably illegal. But it’s not technically trafficking. If however, he videos her in a sexual act with him, and then puts it on the internet with the intent to make money, it’s trafficking.
Anne: So if I were a sex trafficking husband’s defense attorney, I would say “Well he didn’t mean to make money. That wasn’t the intent”, and I would get off.
Anne B.: I don’t know if you’d get off or not. It’s up to the attorneys. It’s definitely a gray area, but if there’s a sexual act, and that sexual act can be proven that it was videoed and then intended to make money off of it in any way. Then that crosses the line. And the legal definition is coercion, fraud or force.
Pornography and Trafficking Connection
Anne B.: So if that video is then used in a coercive way, it’s also crossing a line.
Anne: Interesting. So it sounds like we need a little stronger laws on the books in terms of men filming their wives and putting it on the internet for porn. Many women come and say my husband filmed me, he put it online. I don’t know what to do. And they’re trying to figure out if I save my marriage or not. I want to be like you’ve got a serious abuser on your hands if that has happened to you. It’s trafficking
Anne B.: Oh yeah, absolutely. The issue with pornography, if I can just go down that road, is that pornography opens the door to trafficking. There’s a huge link, and it’s not discussed enough. Fortunately, people are talking about it much more. But it used to be, oh no pornography is something innocent. If people willingly make the pornography or willingly consume the pornography, what’s the issue? Well, the issue is that it absolutely changes the brain.
Just to give you a quick understanding of trafficking: there are the traffickers, and those are the people selling the victims. And then there are people called the recruiters, who could be teenagers in high school. Think of it in terms of drug trafficking. You have people who sell the drugs, you have the supplier who gives them the drugs. They think of usually girls the same way. So the target age I should say of a person who’s trafficked is actually 11 to 15. But it goes up to 25.
Traffickers’ Mindset and Narcissism
Anne B.: The mindset is very similar to a narcissist. When I was at the department of justice, I had a meeting with a man who spent his life working on reforms in the criminal justice system. He’s written books. He’s a leader at a college. And he said to me point blank on the phone that the connection between an abuser in a domestic violence relationship and a human trafficker are the same.
It’s just in one case they do it with one person, and in the other they do it with many people and for money. So that was interesting to hear from him, because he said that to me at the beginning of a meeting. But I will tell you that traffickers target their victims. It’s a lot of mind games. So that’s a lot of similarities that you’ll see with some of your listeners. You don’t see many people who are purchasing the victims.
So you have the traffickers, the recruiters, and the buyers if they don’t have a pornography problem first. Pornography conditions your brain and what you see on the screen, then you naturally want to act out. So that’s why there’s a link. Pornography 20 years ago isn’t what pornography is today.
It’s even more violent, it’s not always consensual, and every time someone consumes it, their brain gets a dopamine hit. So when their brain gets that dopamine hit, what happens? They want the next. There’s a woman on our board of directors, and she is an expert in sexual addiction. She explained to me that it’s more difficult to break a sex addiction than any other addiction, because you carry your sexuality everywhere you go.
Exploitation: The Motivation Of Human Traffickers
Anne: I think the thing that’s hard for wives of these men to wrap their heads around is that this is an abuser. So even if he has a sex addiction, it’s not a sex addiction to you. His addiction is an addiction for him, he has the addiction. What you have is an abuser. It’s important to know that this is directly tied to domestic abuse. Someone willing to lie, manipulate, narcissistic abuse or covert abuse. If someone is that type of abuser, and he’s a man, then he is likely to use porn.
So many women will say he didn’t use porn, but he lied, he manipulated, he did all these other things. In the back of my mind, I’m always thinking, well you just didn’t know he uses porn. Because porn is so easy to hide. You can use it on your phone. It doesn’t smell. It’s not like a drug. It’s not like alcohol, where you can smell it on your breath. It’s very easy for someone to hide this from their spouse forever, and they never find out about it.
Anne B.: Oh absolutely, I completely agree.
Anne: There’s this sense that a human being is not really human. That they’re a drug. That they can be bought or sold. That they can be manipulated. In the case of a husband, it’s more like she’s a tool. She can do my laundry, do my dishes, and give me sex. These are the things that she is good for. And I’m going to use her for those things. Rather than actually seeing her as a partner.
Sexual Coercion: How Human Traffickers & Abusive Men Manipulate Victims
Anne B.: Absolutely, that’s the core of it. That was what I think this man at the Department of Justice was trying to get at, is that the core mindset is objectification of the person. They objectify the person they’re married to, or they objectify the trafficking victim. That’s what the similar element would be. It’s a piece of property. That’s why we call trafficking modern day slavery. Because it’s slavery.
People can’t get out. They’re literally trapped. They are stuck in that situation that always starts with seeing someone as property and not seeing them as equal to yourself in value or worth.
Anne: Something you said reminded me of our listeners. You said traffickers play mind games with their victims. To get them to the point where the victim is willing to do something they normally wouldn’t be willing to do. In terms of pornography, I think that is actually the case.
There is a trafficker producing the pornography, who’s played mind games with the victim to manufacture her consent. So she would say, “Yeah, I gave consent. Yeah, I said I would be in this porn film.” She doesn’t realize all the mind games she’s experienced, manipulation and all the coercion. She actually thinks she has given her consent, when she has been manipulated and coerced. Is that accurate?
Anne B.: Yes, absolutely.
Anne: When I say this relates to our listeners, there’s nothing more consensual than saying yes to getting married. People don’t realize she gets manipulated and coerced. And says yes, but she has been and continues to be lied to, manipulated, and coerced. People think that if you give your consent, it’s not abuse. They don’t realize that people are being abused into giving their “consent” when they’re actually not giving consent at all.
Trafficking Victims’ Security
Anne B.: Oh absolutely. Coercion can happen in any form. It may not fit the legal definition of trafficking, because there may not be an exchange of money, but people can be coerced. Previously in my career, I worked in violence against women. That is often the case, that it actually kept them literally trapped in the relationship. We also see that in trafficking.
Interestingly, trafficking victims oftentimes in safe houses have not just normal locks, but real security at these facilities. I remember when I first visited, I thought, oh this must be to keep the traffickers out. No, it’s not to keep the traffickers out. It’s usually to help keep the victims in, especially if they’re under 18. They don’t want to be trafficked. They’re glad to be out.
But simultaneously, there is this feeling that they have to return. Because there’s enormous fear, and I see that all the time with the commonality of narcissism.
Anne: Let’s talk about the signs of human trafficking in your children or in your community. Because many people think of trafficking as if your child got trafficked, so you never saw them again. But from what you’re saying, your child could be trafficked right under your nose while they’re still living in your home.
Anne B.: Yes, the woman who actually heads up our parent coalition, her daughter, was trafficked right out of her own home. So here in wealthy Fairfax County, one of the wealthiest counties in the country, right outside of Washington D.C., parents were married in all of those circumstances.
Anne: So what you’re saying is that this is not who you imagine as being trafficked. No
Traffickers’ Deceptive Appearances
Anne B.: No, this is not who you may imagine being trafficked. And I will tell you this woman has come forward and is public with her story. But I know of plenty of these scenarios that are not public and will never be shared publicly for the protection of the daughter’s identity. You know who was involved in the family. Let me tell you there are names that your listeners would recognize, and their children have been trafficked even out of private schools.
Which is shocking to people, like how could this happen to people with intact families? The profile of what we think fits a trafficking victim isn’t always there. I will say that victims can be compassionate and kind. And actually, some of the greatest strengths can also be some of the things perceived as weaknesses.
Anne: When you say that the victims aren’t always what you think or not what you think at all That’s also true of the traffickers I’m assuming. But you’d think, oh a trafficker is supposed to look this way. He’s not supposed to be wearing a white shirt and tie. He doesn’t go to church and he doesn’t have a good job. And I don’t think that’s the case either. Right, so many traffickers look like an upstanding member of society
Anne B.: So there’s the traffickers and especially the recruiters So sometimes they are gang related but not always. And the recruiters often are very charming, I will say most of the time these people are very charming.
Love Bombing and Recruitment Tactics
Anne B.: They can do a lot of the love bombing which I’m sure your listeners are familiar with. What love bombing is, where they shower them with gifts and flattery and attention and fill all those needs. And through the love bombing the victim just says this person is so wonderful. They’re getting all their dopamine hits, wow this person’s just checking all my boxes. And unfortunately the trafficker or the recruiter knows this. And so absolutely they don’t fit a certain profile.
And I will say with that, to the buyers, one of the most interesting things to me is that you have the people selling it. Who’s buying these girls? That’s what I feel the focus should be. I don’t have the source of the statistic in front of me, so I’m not going to state the statistic explicitly, but it’s a real statistic that a large percentage of the buyers.
And so I don’t want to say the number, because I don’t have it in front of me. But a large percentage of victims’ buyers are white evangelical males, and I believe that’s because there’s a huge link to pornography. And so I would encourage your listeners, because I know most of them are coming out of some form of abuse. If there is sexual abuse in your marriage, I would really have your wits about you.
Faith and Abuse
Anne: This is a scary thing. I would say most of our listeners are women of faith. But some of them aren’t. We have agnostics that listen, and atheists that listen, and we’re interfaith and inter paradigm. So everyone is welcome here. But I think the thing that shocks the Christian listeners is they thought they were getting a righteous man because he attends church, and because he can quote the Bible and other things.
And wrapping their heads around the fact that those are grooming tactics that he is using to maintain power. Because there is power in the church. If you’re a righteous man that is really alarming. It’s hard to understand. That like yes, Jesus is there, and yes, Jesus can save people. But in this case, your husband isn’t going to church to worship or be a better person, he’s actually there to maintain power.
It’s a hard pill to swallow, but it’s important to recognize this dynamic to start healing and moving forward.
It can be difficult for someone who has grown up in the church or has strong faith to come to terms with the idea that their husband may use religious tactics as a means of manipulation and control. But it is crucial to understand that there is a power dynamic within the church, and abusers often use this to their advantage.
The idea of a righteous man using religion for his own gain may seem alarming and confusing, but unfortunately, it is not uncommon. In these situations, husbands may attend church services and events not because of true devotion or desire for self-improvement, but rather because of a way to maintain power.
Religious Abuse & Maintaining Control
Anne B.: Let me address that, because that’s a really important point. You’re absolutely right. Some of the worst stories I’ve heard over the years, and the ones that went on the longest, the person was very religious. And I don’t just mean Judeo-Christian. I mean, they could have been any religion and just very religious. So I’ve heard this from many religions, because with faith, which I’m a person of faith too. You get all the wonderful elements that provide morality.
A purpose in life and an explanation of basically why we’re here. But as with anything, there’s an opportunity for someone to come in and manipulate it. And basically hijack religion in the name of control.
And it is a hijack. It’s not the intent, but the hijack of religion in the name of control. And so unfortunately, exactly what you’re talking about happens. They appear as a wonderful wise person, a wise religious leader. And in reality, they are using that as an abuse of power.
Anne: And obviously the most common example is a so-called righteous man maintaining control in his own home. And in fact, some religions explicitly say he’s supposed to do that. He’s the head of the household, and he’s supposed to call all the shots. And women are supposed to submit to that. That gets scary for abuse victims, I think, because they have their abuser manipulating them. But then they feel like the tenets of their faith are also fighting against them getting help.
That’s one of my real goals is to help women of faith see that God loves you. He does not want you to be abused. These things being used to abuse you are not true.
Jesus’ Teachings on Protecting the Vulnerable
Anne: They’re not part of the gospel of Jesus Christ, they’re not part of any healthy religion, they’re simply abuse used to oppress you.
Anne B.: As a Christian specifically, I will tell you that if we take just Christianity for example. And we just look at the Bible. Jesus made it so clear .And you know if you say for example just in the Christian religion if you say you’re a Christian what does that mean You’re supposed to be a follower of Christ Well what did Jesus say over and over is that he really looked out for women and he really looked out for those who were victims and vulnerable those were the people that he helped and even the intent So in the U S law and this is just U S law When you go to a court they say to you what’s the language and what’s the intent That’s how everything works Okay What’s the language of the law but what’s the intent of the law And the same actually holds true to some extent especially in the Bible itself not just what’s the language but what was the intent You know when Jesus said to the Pharisees words on divorce it’s always comes down to what was the intent because even in the New Testament they look back at the Old Testament and King David is praised for breaking laws by feeding his own soldiers out of Forbidden bread from the temple So he took forbidden bread from the temple fed his soldiers because they were in a crisis They needed food And he was praised for that for quote breaking the law because what was the intent of the law The intent of the law was to save people The intent of the law was always to protect people to save people It was never for us to just serve the law
Who Do Traffickers Target?
Anne: It certainly was not used in order to oppress Especially your wife We’ve talked a little bit about who traffickers target You’re saying these are women or girls and boys sometimes who you would not expect who are coming from affluent families or other situations you don’t typically think of for a trafficking victim So let’s talk more about that Who do traffickers target and what are the misconceptions.
Anne B.: Technically anyone could become a victim of human trafficking but they do generally target certain ages So like I said age 11 to 15 which is shockingly young is really the prime target for most human trafficking victims but it can range all the way up to age 25 really The second thing is Girls are targeted more than boys Boys are targeted too absolutely but it is mostly girls One of the other factors is there’s some perceived vulnerability either some form of social isolation or some perceived form of weakness Like I said it doesn’t mean That doesn’t happen across the board One of the biggest misconceptions is that people think this can’t happen to my kid And I say it over and over Yes it absolutely can happen to your child So when I say perceived forms of weakness that can be even a positive At times perceived forms of weakness could be someone who is just extra compassionate I actually was interviewing a woman who interviewed a pimp And she said that when she interviewed him He said that the thing that they looked for is they would be in a group of girls and the one who looked down at the ground when they answered that was the one that they picked as their victim because she looked down at the ground So it could be something as subtle as that you know someone who’s just not quite as confident around their peers We’ve worked with girls like that as well You know they’re in the schools they have a great home but gosh those teen years are really rough And it’s hard to be confident and all those things And so those can even be some of the perceived weaknesses but someone who really wants a boyfriend I know that sounds really simple but someone who just really wants a boyfriend because often the recruiters come in the package of a boyfriend you know so they really want a boyfriend and he comes along and he you know sweeps her off her feet The last thing is really appealing to flattery One of the biggest ways that girls can be lured in is through flattery It’s by the simple phrase you look like a model You look so beautiful You look like a model Do you want to be a model And I don’t know if your audience wants to watch it but there’s a video that’s on Netflix It’s called Hot Girls Wanted It’s a documentary on the whole concept of how this happens and how girls get lured through grooming and starts with Hey we want models and they get lured away.
Prevention Through Education
Anne B.: Almost all funding for human trafficking in the United States The collaboration between the U S Department of Justice and the U S Department of Human Services and the U S Department of Human Services The agency and the organization in charge of human trafficking the U S Department of Human Services is a non profit organization which provides services to a variety of victims We help to support the work of survivors and to engage in topics such as human trafficking sit there and say to themselves I wish I’d known fill in the blank Maybe I could have fill in the blank because it’s not their fault but they play this guessing game I wish I hadn’t fallen down the hole You know I wish I had known to avoid this And so what our organization does is we focus really heavily on the prevention side So we really want to stop human trafficking before it starts So we have a variety of programs but every single one of them in some way is very very focused on prevention And our main programs actually have to do with education So I know you mentioned earlier but my master’s is in education and I am just a firm firm believer That education is truly the best form of prevention because when we know better we do better across the board and we’re able to avoid things for lack of knowledge People do perish But with good knowledge people are able to avoid horrible horrible things And so we really focus on the prevention side because Benjamin Franklin said it best an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure For all the resources that are available I’ve met these trafficking victims If you sat across from just one of them eyeball to eyeball you would want to pour everything you could into making sure that that person never had to go through that in the first place That they never had to experience any of that or have their little girl dreams just ripped up to shreds
Reframing Pornography as Abuse
Anne: That’s interesting you say that I also have a master’s degree in education So I feel the same way about reframing pornography use as an abuse issue is my main goal in life To be like this isn’t just an addiction issue where you can be like Oh okay honey I love you I’m going to support you while you go to 12 step You have an abuser in your home And you need to act accordingly This is a serious serious thing And can he change Sure Will he change I don’t know But you need to get to safety and wait from a safe distance and know what safety looks like Know what you’re looking for in order to be safe Not just take his word for it that he stopped using porn.
My goal is to make sure that those young women don’t end up marrying these narcissistic abusers in the first place That is so good The prevention aspect of this is really important As our listeners are thinking what about my daughter or my son How can I better safeguard him or her What would you recommend for how to safeguard children from exploitation or trafficking
Safeguarding Children from Trafficking
Anne B.: Well the first thing is as a parent really just educating yourself a variety of ways You can go to our website It’s just preventht org so preventht org and there’s a little tab that says Human Trafficking 101 Very simple You can learn all about human trafficking but it’s really eye opening I spoke to a PTA here locally I was told behind the scenes that there was one woman and she basically got on because It was part of the PTA and she wasn’t sure she even wanted to get on She told my friend she’s like I don’t need to hear this She was more engaged and shocked by the information because she truly didn’t think that it could happen to her kid And my goal just as a parent and you know someone who you know Like I said has an education background is really to equip parents first and foremost Number one thing is parents get educated and then pass that information along to your kids We have a resource on our website too That’s actually a parenting tool You can download totally for free And it really is a guide for you to talk to your kids about this because I know it’s a difficult thing to talk about but it’s a great door opener to talking about narcissism and all sorts of other qualities that we look for in the people that we date because that’s one of the key things to discuss is what are those qualities that we look for And what are those red flags that we look for in a relationship too So The ones that you see in an abusive relationship are going to be very similar to the ones that a trafficker will have
Progression to Child Sex Abuse Material
Anne: One of the things that our listeners grapple with is how quote unquote bad is my husband Is he a good guy who’s able to Quit porn Is our marriage going to be okay Do I need to file for divorce yesterday They have all these questions They’re trying to navigate Can you talk really quick about the progression to consuming child sex abuse material Why anytime someone uses porn it’s serious
Ethical Issues in Treating Abusers and Victims
Anne: Real quick before a response there are a lot of so called betrayal trauma therapists or coaches or groups out there but they don’t approach pornography use or infidelity as an abuse issue or they try to quote unquote treat both the abuser and the victim in the same setting which is unethical So if you hear something in this episode you relate to check out the group session schedule at btr.org/group We’d love to see you in a group session today Now back to our conversation
Anne B.: As I mentioned earlier it really is Your brain takes a dopamine hit That’s how it becomes an addiction and like with any addition what it takes to get that initial high is gonna change So if you consistently consume pornography it probably doesn’t always start And I would imagine doesn’t usually start with what we call see Sam child sexual abuse material It doesn’t usually start there but it progresses there because Your brain needs one more hit one more hit one more hit And it absolutely can progress to that in some cases So women they’re pretty shocked at what’s even available on the internet As I mentioned earlier the buyers of these trafficking victims are quite often men you would not expect And I do say men I try to but 98 percent of buyers of trafficking victims are men 98 percent. So that is the statistic much of pornography is non consensual And the sources for pornography such as Pornhub are often videos of rape And they’re not love based And they’re very very young girls And so if your brain is going to Pornhub and watching video after video of literally young girls You are training your brain and that’s what’s happening And so it becomes the sexual addiction progression into um at times CSAM which is child sexual abuse material and eventually the real thing
Escalation of Abuse
Anne: Rather than saying an escalation of the addiction I would say an escalation of the abuse
Victims’ Misconceptions About Consent
Anne B.: Absolutely Yeah We’ve heard someone there’s a term child pornography I don’t even like that term I don’t feel like it’s pornography It’s sexual abuse material Like that is what it is It’s not child pornography That’s why we call it CSAM because it really isn’t pornography This is a child This is sexual abuse material
These are literal victims who are like I said are often even being raped on camera and they’re often very very young So if you’re consuming this sort of material that’s what you eventually want to act out
Anne: If we ever do run into victims in pornography and they say I’m so proud to be in pornography.
Hollywood Coercion Stories
Anne: It reminds me of myself when back in the day I was so quote unquote proud of my husband who was in recovery for addiction and I would prop him up as like he’s in recovery and he’s doing so well and I’m so proud of him for overcoming all the problems that he’s had as a kid and all this stuff right Not knowing that I was being manipulated So I thought that that was true but it wasn’t true So I was standing up in front of people talking about my amazing husband who had overcome all these things He had manipulated me into saying that So when these women were the centerfold and they were proud of it We can’t really know exactly what took her there to think that that was a good thing Cause I thought it was a good thing until my whole world started falling apart I’ve read three articles lately one about Selma Hayek one about Sharon Stone and one about Jennifer Love Hewitt about coercion just in the R rated movies they were in They were so excited to be this lead in a movie and they showed up on the set They did not expect a sex scene and they were coerced in that moment to do the sex scene by the director and a bunch of men standing around And all three of them Jennifer Love Hewitt Sharon Stone and Salma Hayek say that it was traumatic They were misled Words like that that they were coerced And so even just with a regular R rated movie where you think this woman was paid like she’s on this poster Everybody knows that she’s in it They wouldn’t think she was coerced into doing the sex scene in those movies
Anne B.: But it’s hard They’ve been paid Think about it You have a contract you have people standing around you don’t know all the details And then Someone stands there and says you need to do X Y or Z And it’s very easy to stand on the outside and judge I hear it all the time well why didn’t they just say no or why didn’t they just Don’t judge until you have literally walked through this Because it is subtle.
Anne: Yeah and that’s not even considered porn That’s just a movie I’m realizing now there was one more It was Amelia Clark from Game of Thrones She too was surprised that she’d need to show her breasts and she was upset about it But she said she didn’t have a big enough name and all these people were standing around and they said Well if you won’t do this we need an actress who will and you’d lose your job That’s coercion I’m really grateful that women in Hollywood now are starting to talk about this and starting to write articles about it So we know Amelia Clark had this problem because there’s an article about it in CNN more and more women are saying wait a minute No no no And also after the fact when we realize that wait my whole marriage was a sham I was groomed from the beginning and he never actually truly cared about me as a person He was never a partner He just wanted to use me for sex and other things Now I know the truth We’re trying to share that with other women so that we can all stay safe Whether it’s in Hollywood whether it’s in our own relationships or how we can keep our kids safe obviously So we’ve talked a lot about the intersection between pornography and trafficking and how this is all abuse on every front As you know all of our listeners are in relationships with men who use pornography or lie to them manipulation narcissistic abuse emotional abuse psychological abuse sexual coercion oh my word that’s way too many things I just said but they’re all dealing with that in their own homes can you talk about the signs of human trafficking Like there might be a listener who doesn’t know she’s being trafficked for example or might have a child who’s being trafficked
Signs of Human Trafficking
Anne B.: Yeah So some of the signs of human trafficking can be changes in someone’s appearance Their grades slipping some of their physical features just to tie it into your listeners especially you know I used to work with victims of violence against women as well as our organization used to be called the Just Ask Prevention Project because it’s so important that people just be asked It started because there was a victim trafficked for three years Her grades were slipping Her appearance had changed She was in counseling because of it She was seeing doctors you know people were addressing it but they were addressing all the signs all the symptoms And I’m sure your listeners can relate to that you know from the outside Things are happening and all that gets addressed is all the symptoms
Anne: Well they don’t know what the source of it is right So they’re in marriage counseling because they think it’s a communication problem or they think Oh I just need a breast implants because my boobs aren’t as big as my neighbors .
Anne B.: Exactly!
Asking the Right Questions
Anne B.: And so all of these signs and symptoms are coming up Your listeners here at in a friend or anyone just ask just ask them you know could your husband have a pornography issue That’s a question you can ask Is there anyone forcing you Is anyone coercing you If you have a child specifically or someone who’s younger you can ask targeted questions that really get at whether or not this is trafficking Because this girl opened up as soon as she was asked the right questions but she was never asked the right questions And I know for so many victims they will speak up but they really won’t speak up until the right questions are asked And I know a lot of times specifically it’s hard to even ask Your husband these questions because I mean do we really want to know?
Anne: Well but also he’ll lie to you So asking him’s not really gonna help So if you say hey are you filming me and then putting it on the internet for money and he really is He’s not gonna say yes that is the same with abuse That people don’t realize they’re being abused and then when someone asks them some specific questions or helpful questions then you can kind of help them see it We can assume that many trafficking victims don’t actually realize they’re being trafficked And help them by asking questions or maybe by educating them a little bit Which is really hard to do I realize that It feels like Oh wait this is none of my business Really Am I really going to ask that person Are you being forced to have sex From personal experience having asked people some very difficult questions like Oh are you being raped by your husband It has been amazing how well it has gone And I know that sounds crazy And if it doesn’t go well at least you did what you could to help that person I’m always a fan of people who out of compassion and care for people Um and to do their best to help And I think people can see that and I hope that they can and if they get mad they get mad but at least you tried That’s my opinion
Encouraging Victims to Speak Up
Anne B.: Absolutely I agree at the core we all want to be known And we’ve even talked to women who are who lead ministries or they’re leaders in other capacities And I’ve talked to Men who are leaders at church And I think one of the biggest things is to not just address the signs and the symptoms but to really dive deep and say have you considered maybe your partner has a pornography issue and going there with that victim you know maybe she’s thought it but no one’s actually asked her They’ve just said to her Hey Why don’t you go into counseling Or why don’t you go to a doctor and take some medication if you’ve got some anxiety But she really has a sense something’s wrong and she’s not really addressing it She has this strong sense but she needs the courage of someone else to come there and ask those pointed questions Because I think at the end of the day those pointed questions they give people courage They really do to really think about things they’ve probably wondered themselves and never had the courage to go there
Anne: Or maybe if I huh I must just be crazy My husband’s fine He’s nice We go to church He always instigates family prayer I’m just being crazy
Recognizing Abuse in Marriage
Anne B.: I have a friend this woman had gone all over speaking and she wasn’t hiding what was going on with her husband And she told this pastor behind the scenes sort of what was going on And the man said to her have you considered that this is abuse And she initially said Oh no no no But it takes that first person to say have you considered have you considered this could be abuse Have you considered that this could be sexual abuse Have you considered that this could be a form of rape in your marriage It really takes that person who loves you enough to ask those questions
Empowering Women to Seek Safety
Anne: And I love you dear listeners which is why I’m asking these hard questions and asking you to ask these hard questions Hoping that we’ll all make our way to safety together as a healthy army of women which is exciting to me It’s exciting that more and more women are becoming educated about these issues and able to teach their children and talk to their friends because that’s what’s gonna get us out of this mess.
Conclusion and Gratitude
Anne: Anne B. I appreciate you coming on today’s episode you have such a wealth of knowledge. Thank you so much.
Excellent information!!! Sexual coercion ……. I always thought that my husband’s “urgings”, i.e. manipulating, were justified because there was something wrong with me!!!! My husband, soon to be ex-husband, is a Swinger. He readily explained that it was critical that I do what he wanted because then the man in the other couple would make his wife do the same and then my husband could have a chance with her !!! It’s all so gross!!! I was the “chit” in this exchange…. I was his “bait”…. and it took years for me to get this. He wasn’t “selling” me for money, but he definitely was exchanging me for sex for himself!! This has been so awful, and now I have a better sense of why.