# Betrayal Trauma Recovery > Clarity When Marriage is Confusing > Generated by All in One SEO Pro v5.0.3, this is an llms-full.txt file, used by LLMs to index the site. ## Posts ### [26 Symptoms of Betrayal Trauma To Watch For](https://www.btr.org/26-symptoms-of-betrayal-trauma/) **Published:** December 17, 2024 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** When your intimate partner violates your trust, you may experiencing betrayal trauma. Learn the 26 symptoms. **Content:** Betrayal trauma occurs when you’ve experienced (or are still experiencing) your husband’s emotional and psychological abuse. If you recently found out your husband has been lying to you, using pornography, or other infidelity, here’s what you need to know. If you relate and need support? Learn about [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Support Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/). ## WHAT IS BETRAYAL TRAUMA? Betrayal Trauma is caused by your husband’s chronic and systematic betrayal. This betrayal includes infidelity in the form of affairs, hook ups, secret pornography use, etc, and is covered up or justified by emotional, psychological, spiritual, sexual, and financial abuse. To discover if you’re experiencing any of the 19 types of emotional abuse, take this [FREE emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ## AM I OVERREACTING OR AM I TRAUMATIZED? If you’re second-guessing whether you have betrayal trauma, look at the list of symptoms below. Keep in mind that not every victim will experience every symptom. And please remember – it’s normal to be deeply affected by your husband’s betrayal. You’re not crazy *or* overreacting. ![What Are the Signs of Betrayal Trauma](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/betrayal-trauma-signs.webp "Betrayal Trauma Signs")## 26 SYMPTOMS OF BETRAYAL TRAUMA 1. Feeling helpless 2. Hopelessness 3. Sleeplessness 4. Restlessness / Over achieving 5. Anger / Rage 6. Fear 7. Forgetfulness 8. Difficulty concentrating or focusing 9. Hyper-vigilance 10. Sensitivity 11. Anxiety 12. Nightmares 13. Flashbacks / Intrusive images / Reliving Conversations or events 14. Immobility / Agoraphobia 15. Withdrawing 16. Avoidance 17. Mood swings 18. Panic attacks 19. Depression 20. Confusion 21. Dissociation 22. Inability to eat 23. Overeating 24. Chronic fatigue 25. Immune/endocrine system problems 26. Tight and sore muscles ## I HAVE BETRAYAL TRAUMA – WHAT NEXT? First and foremost, please offer yourself radical compassion. As you come to accept that you’re experiencing Betrayal Trauma. **At BTR, we encourage victims to focus on their own emotional safety and wellness as *the first priority*.** To do that you need to learn more about what’s been happening to you. Listen to [The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast](https://www.btr.org/podcast/). For more information about what’s really going on and how to find peace. ![Symptoms of Betrayal Trauma](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/26-symptoms-of-betrayal-trauma.webp "Symptoms of Betrayal Trauma")## Choose To Focus On Your Emotional Safety & Wellness You didn’t cause your husband to betray you. But now that you know, you will need support. Please know that you are NOT alone. At BTR.ORG, we know the seemingly endless and daunting devastation of betrayal trauma. The horror of realizing that your life is not what you thought it was. We understand the loneliness of waking up next to someone who has broken your heart. We know the anger and sadness that seems all-consuming. Our [BTR.ORG Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/) are a safe space for you to process these difficult feelings. And find a community of women who understand your pain. [Attend today](https://www.btr.org/group/) and begin your journey to healing. ![What Are the Symptoms of Betrayal Trauma](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-Are-The-Symptoms-Of-Betrayal-Trauma-1.webp "What Are the Symptoms of Betrayal Trauma")Do I Have Betrayal Trauma Symptoms## Transcript: Do I Have Betrayal Trauma? 26 Symptoms **Anne:** It’s just me today. We’ll talk about betrayal trauma. I’d hazard to say, at least millions of women across the globe experience betrayal trauma. [The best way to explain betrayal trauma](/best-way-to-explain-betrayal-trauma/ "The best way to explain betrayal trauma") comes from the Greek word wound. Trauma is the resulting wound from whatever occurred in an event or situation. If it injures us, we end up with a wound. So we can use either the word wound or trauma. Trauma means going through something really upsetting that leaves a mark or a wound. This could be a wound on your body, like if you get hurt in a car accident or get shot. People can see these kinds of wounds. But trauma can also be something that hurts your feelings or mind, like if someone is mean to you all the time. This kind of wound is not visible, but it can still hurt a lot. All types of trauma come from things that are really hard to deal with. ![Betrayal Trauma Symptoms Are Real](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/how-do-I-know-if-Im-experiencing-betrayal-trauma.webp "How Do I Know if Im Experiencing Betrayal Trauma")Psychological and emotional trauma isn’t visible to anyone, even the victim. Because no one can see it, and because generally men do not believe women. There’s this sense that the wound doesn’t exist. Instead, you’re broken, which isn’t true. This is where things get dicey. Because, if you have trauma and been wounded, there was a cause. A wound doesn’t just occur out of thin air. Which is why men don’t listen to women. So the proof he injured her is their hurt or trauma. And if he’s the type to exploit and objectify women. He has no concept of her actually having an inner world. ## Denial & Exploitative Behavior’s Wounds: Psychological & Emotional Trauma **Anne:** If he’s using a hammer, he never thinks, is the hammer going to be injured? He doesn’t think the hammer has feelings? Or that it even could be injured. If it breaks, he might need to get a new hammer. So if it’s not working the way he thought it should, he might want to get a new hammer. A man with an exploitative character thinks about women in that way. She’s a tool, and if she’s not working. If she’s not useful. Then it’s time to get a new one. This absolute denial that she’s capable of being injured because she’s a person. The denial that his actions will injure her highlights his exploitative character on a deep and profound level. Instead, he chooses to think that any distress she feels is her fault. Because she’s broken. So in his mind, if the hammer is not working, it’s a broken hammer. In fact, it’s the hammer’s fault, not his fault. ![How The Best Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Saved My Life](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/sV0BCL0RjuQ/maxresdefault.jpg) So In other words, if I’m unable to exploit her. And if she’s not acting like she’s “supposed to.” If she asks too many questions. If she’s sad or broken. That’s her fault, because she’s broken. This type of deep psychological and emotional trauma women experience is devastating. Aggressions cause it, psychological and emotional. Sometimes in the form of grooming, so they feel good almost daily. The injuries caused by that abuse over time grows, grows and grows. But because you can’t see it with your eyes, it’s hard to know how this is happening. Betrayal trauma occurs when the person you trust the most. Your partner has and continues to violate that trust in an ongoing way. ## Research & Misconceptions About Betrayal Trauma **Anne:** Jennifer Frayed did some research at the University of Oregon. She described betrayal trauma as trauma that occurs when a person or institution. On which a person depends for survival, significantly violates that person’s trust or wellbeing. So other things that would cause betrayal trauma or these types of emotional and psychological injuries. Are generally considered things like childhood, physical, emotional, and psychological abuse. Where a caregiver or someone that a child should trust and depend on violates that trust. By repeatedly injuring that child, not just through one physical event. But through emotional and psychological abuse almost daily. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) Here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery we offer [the best support for betrayal trauma](https://www.btr.org/best-support-for-betrayal-trauma/ "the best support for betrayal trauma"). Is when we, as a wife, have been psychologically and emotionally abused continually by our husband. When he lies and gaslights us about his exploitative content use, his affairs, or any behavior outside the marriage. In this case, because it’s a marriage, and he has made vows and promises. There’s a reasonable expectation of trust. and honesty. Here’s the thing that most people get wrong about betrayal trauma. They think the trauma or injury comes from the discovery that he’s been using. But the trauma actually grows daily. Through all of the lies, gaslighting, psychological and emotional abuse. ## Injuries Start The Day We Met, Abusive Husbands Are Not Trustworthy **Anne:** The long con causes the trauma. It started the day we met him. When he used grooming, emotional and psychological abuse to create a false narrative. When it’s revealed he’s actually not who we thought he was. That he has this whole secret life. We also discover that he had never been trustworthy. And has been injuring us since the day he met us. Even though we can’t see it, we can sense it. We feel hurt and try to explain it to others. Or talk to a therapist or a pastor about the pain. We think it’s just a small problem, but it turns out to be much bigger, affecting our body and mind more than we thought. When we ask for help, neither we nor those helping us realize that we’re still getting hurt. We don’t see, and they don’t educate us. That those injuries came from and continue to come from emotional and psychological abuse. And we are still in danger. Then they also injure us. Because if the source of the injury hasn’t been accurately named, the cause still exists. Our injuries will continue to grow. Unfortunately, in religious settings, this can also cause spiritual injuries for women of faith. Because he keeps us in the dark about what’s happening. ![Are These Symptoms Betrayal Trauma](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/what-is-betrayal-trauma.webp "Could These Symptoms Be Betrayal Trauma")We may question, does God love me? Does he even care? Because clergy doesn’t accurately see that a perpetrator actively harms her and causes injuries. They fall into that misogynistic trap of thinking. Because she hasn’t prayed enough or read her scriptures. Or because she doesn’t have enough faith. And she is just acting like this, because she’s broken. Rather than seeing the truth. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## The Serious Problem Of Unrecognized Active Psychological & Emotional Abuse **Anne:** There’s a serious problem, she’s injured and needs help. Clergy could act as the Savior would. And help deliver these women from these injuries. So they could actually heal. But instead, they usually don’t acknowledge the cause of the actual injury. Instead, they grow the trauma by calling her broken. Which is emotional and psychological abuse in this case. Because she’s not broken. It is a lie. As you listen, do you identify with the word trauma? Would you describe your experience? When you found out your husband used online exploitative content. Or had an affair, solicited prostitutes or texted inappropriately with a coworker? Would you describe that experience as traumatic? And then also looking back and realizing all the gaslighting and lies? If you relate to the word trauma, we have our daily [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/). Where women share their experiences. I’d also be honored to hear your story. If you’d like to share your story on the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, email podcast@btr.org. ## Symptoms Of Betrayal Trauma **Anne:** If you have betrayal trauma, here are 26 [betrayal trauma symptoms](https://www.btr.org/betrayal-trauma-symptoms/ "betrayal trauma symptoms") that you may be experiencing: Feeling helpless, hopeless, sleepless, restlessness or overachieving. Additionally feeling anger, rage, fear, forgetfulness, difficulty concentrating, difficulty focusing or reading. Feeling hypervigilance, sensitivity, anxiety, nightmares. flashbacks, or intrusive images. Also, you may relive conversations or events, feel immobility, agoraphobia, withdrawing, and avoidance. Avoidance of things you want to do, mood swings, panic attacks, depression, confusion, or disassociation. Maybe the inability to eat. Or overeating, chronic fatigue, immune endocrine system problems. Lastly, tight and sore muscles. Although I could actually go on and on. Betrayal trauma victims will experience symptoms like this. From the very first day they meet this abusive man. They might end up going to therapy for years. Misdiagnosed with depression. Not realizing they’re depressed, because they’re injured. ## Healing From Betrayal Trauma **Anne:** So the key to healing from betrayal trauma is: First, recognizing exactly what is causing the trauma. Then putting some distance between yourself and the harm. In fact, I describe exactly how to do that in the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). The Living Free Workshop helps women determine if their husband has an exploitative character. Music can also help in processing the trauma, here are some [songs about healing from trauma.](https://www.btr.org/songs-about-healing-from-trauma/ "songs about healing from trauma.") After the workshop, you can clearly see what his true character is. Then if he has an exploitative character, it will teach you emotional and psychological safety strategies. If you’re new to this whole concept of betrayal trauma. Listen to [The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast](https://www.btr.org/podcast/). Also, we’re on YouTube, search for our channel [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.youtube.com/@BtrOrg). **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast **Tags:** emotional abuse --- ### [The Secret Sexual Basement: Your Husband's Dangerous Double Life](https://www.btr.org/secret-sexual-basement/) **Published:** December 24, 2024 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** If a husband has a secret sexual basement that his wife doesn't know about, he's abusive in so many ways. Here's what you need to know. **Content:** When a man chooses to have a secret sexual basement, he’s abusing his wife. Here’s why. A secret sexual basement refers to a hidden life that a man conceals from his wife and children. This hidden life may involve activities such as pornography, prostitution, sexting, affairs, sexual assault, or workplace sexual harassment. ## HAVING A “SECRET BASEMENT” IS ABUSE Here are all the abusive ways a man keeps his behaviors hidden from his wife: - Manipulation - Lies - Gaslighting - Emotional neglect Did you know there are 19 different types of emotional abuse? Take this [FREE emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/) to determine if your husband’s secret basement qualifies as emotional abuse. ## A SECRET BASEMENT IS ABUSIVE Even if a man is fully transparent about his activities – thus having no “secret” basement – if he feels entitled to sex, he is still abusive. At BTR.ORG, we understand how difficult it can be to accept that your [partner’s betrayal](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/) is abuse – especially if you have been conditioned to believe that your partner is addicted and needs your support to “heal”. If your husband has been lying to you about his secret life, [attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY](https://www.btr.org/group/). Get the support you need. ![a Secret Basement Why His Secrets Are Dangerous](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/A-Secret-Basement_-Why-His-Secrets-Are-Dangerous.webp "a Secret Basement Why His Secrets Are Dangerous")## TRANSCRIPT: WHAT IS A SECRET SEXUAL BASEMENT? **Anne:** It’s just me today. I’m going to talk about the secret basement. A secret basement is when a man has an entire life that his wife and kids don’t know about. That life can include any or all of these things: pornography, masturbation, prostitution, sexting, affairs, sexual assault, sexual harassment at work . It could be [why he’s on his phone all the time](https://www.btr.org/why-is-my-husband-constantly-on-his-phone/ "why he's on his phone all the time"). He compartmentalizes his life so that when he’s with his wife and children, he’s an upstanding member of society. Then he has this other part of his life. He participates in behaviors that would absolutely devastate and shock his family, colleagues and church community. The type of man who would have a secret basement is, at his core, a liar. He doesn’t live in truth, because there’s no truth in him. The character of a man with a secret basement has no respect or care for integrity. Meaning he doesn’t care if his actions are inconsistent with his statements. He doesn’t have an integrity disorder. He just doesn’t have integrity. So this isn’t necessarily him breaking his marriage vows, although he absolutely has broken his marriage vows. It’s the opposite. Like he saw this public act of making marriage vows as a good way to deceive people about his true character. Let’s pretend for a minute that he was very genuine when he made his marriage vows, he did those honestly. If he is honest, then when he wants to break his marriage vows. He would tell his wife, hey, I know I made these marriage vows. I now would like to break them and I’m going to break them in this way. ## TRAITS OF MEN WITH SECRETS **Anne:** I’ve never heard of a [cheating man or a man](https://www.btr.org/is-my-husband-gay/) who uses exploitative material doing that, not once. Why? Because a man with a secrets is a liar. That is his character. A man with a secrets is also exploitative. His character is based on the belief that he’s entitled to exploit people, especially his wife. When it comes to it, he puts his desire for it and his ability to do whatever he wants when it comes to it. Above the basic care or rights of other people. This creates [emotional wounds in relationships](/healing-emotional-wounds-in-relationships/). So in a nutshell, a man with a secrets lies and exploits people. The addiction, industrial complex or treatment complex would like women married to men. Who have this type of character to believe it’s an addiction issue. But entitlement isn’t an impulse control problem, a brain problem, or a willpower problem. It’s just a character problem. This is a man who thinks, I deserve to watch it. It’s my right. If you get in my way or cause me problems, complain or whine about me doing this thing that I’m entitled to do. You are taking away my rights. You’re oppressing me. I am entitled to it from you. And if you don’t give it to me or let me do it in some other way, it’s a miscarriage of justice. And that’s how men with this type of character end up playing the victim over and over again. Because a man with this type of character will feel very oppressed when he’s not able to get what he thinks he deserves. He’s going to think you’re taking his rights away. Or oppressing him if you confront him about his use, or how he’s harmed you. ## THE ROLE OF DECEPTION & THE IMPACT ON WIVES **Anne:** Men with secret basements use deception, as they use. That they don’t want their wife or anyone to know about. They’re not engaged in those behaviors because they’re an addict, although they are an addict. They believe, at their core, entitled to that. And believe their desires are equal to air, and if they don’t “breathe,” they’re going to asphyxiate. They will feel oppressed and victimized when someone gets in their way. And his wife usually wonders where he is. Why isn’t he home for dinner? Because she doesn’t know he has this whole other life. So it’s hard for her to understand why he can’t make enough time to take out the garbage. The character of a man with a secrets is unwilling. He’ll manipulate his wife to believe he’s unable to meet the lowest bar of decent human behavior. He wants his wife to think that his lower than lowest bar behavior is due to an addiction, disorder, childhood trauma or abusive dad. So he needs her help to educate him about how to meet the lowest bar. He doesn’t mind being labeled an addict, and he doesn’t mind [therapy because an abusive husband ](https://www.btr.org/your-abusive-husbands-therapist/ "therapy because an abusive husband ")knows he can just lie and manipulate the therapist. But if he says his childhood trauma caused him to have a secrets, that is flat out not true. He had childhood trauma, sure. Then he had a bunch of choices to make, and he chose a deceitful character and create a secret basement. ## MANIPULATION IS ALWAYS INVOLVED **Anne:** When he could sing Broadway musicals all day. He could eat ice cream or go for a run. It literally has nothing to do with his childhood trauma, or his abusive dad. He’s not willing to behave in a way that doesn’t harm other people. Because he doesn’t care about people. He’s not considerate of others. If he actually cared about injuring people, he would have stopped a long time ago. But he doesn’t care about injuring other people. He just wants to do what he wants to do, and he doesn’t want anyone to bother him about it. He’s not willing to live according to principles. And due to that, you might see that he exhibits some sociopathic or antisocial patterns. These are ways of thinking and behaviors that disregard and violate the rights of others through deceit and manipulation. One of the hallmarks of an emotional and psychological abuser. The type of man to have a secrets is that he understands sympathy and uses it to manipulate people. But he doesn’t feel sympathy toward other people. He wants his wife to feel sorry for him. So he can continue to exploit her. The manipulation tactic of poor me. I’ve had such a hard life. All the excuses he could give sounds better than the truth. Which is: I’m going to watch it because I’m so selfish. I’m willing to harm other people to satisfy my desires. ## JUSTIFICATIONS USED FOR THE ABUSIVE BEHAVIOR **Anne:** Just think about it this way. If I thought it was fun to stomp on my husband’s barefoot with my cowboy boots on. But he cried when I did it, I’d stop. I would stop after the first time, because I would see the look on his face. I would realize the pain it caused him. Even that example is insane. Because a decent human being would know that stomping on his barefoot in my cowboy boots would hurt. I don’t have to stomp on it or see the look on his face to realize this. The type of man to have a secret basement. He’s never going to articulate or admit that he’s aware, educated, and conscious that he’s hurting people. And that he chooses to do it anyway. When a woman discovers her husband has secrets. It’s likely she’ll resist this type of abuse by trying to get him to get help. Thinking that that will stop him from abusing her. It takes [a long time to recover from your husband’s emotional abuse](https://www.btr.org/how-long-does-it-take-to-heal-from-emotional-abuse/ "a long time to recover from your husband's emotional abuse"). Anything that a woman does to resist this type of abuse is healthy. Even so, we’ve found it’s not the most strategic way to safety. Because he’s been comfortable deceiving you and others this entire time. He’s known he’s been doing it the whole time. If the only time you ever hear about him wanting to change and getting treatment is after you’ve caught him using or having an affair. You can know that is manipulation. Because if he wanted to change, he would have sought help before you found it on his phone. ## RELIGION, DECEIT & MORE ABUSE **Anne:** In religious communities, when they’re caught, men with a secrets. Will profess to believe in Jesus, and repentance, and that you need to forgive. This is just more manipulation and abuse. Jesus said don’t lust after women. So, if he believed in Jesus, he would have followed his counsel before he got caught. A man with a secrets can be accurately defined as abusive. And here’s why, to “get what he’s owed,” he’ll use abusive tactics like grooming, gaslighting, and deceit. All of which are abusive. Grooming and gaslighting to see aren’t wrong, because if you do them, you’ll go to hell. They’re wrong, because if you do them, you’re going to hurt someone else. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) Let’s say a man doesn’t have a secrets. Let’s say he uses, but he’s completely honest and transparent about it. Is he abusive? The answer is yes, because he’s participating in trafficking, which is how it is produced. The definition of trafficking is the buying or selling of people for a profit. The free exploitative material is to get people hooked, so eventually they will pay for it. If a man is willing to consume women as products, his wife will be abused. Because he believes, at his core, that women are objects. Pretty much every woman in our community who discovered her husband’s secrets. Says that her husband also exhibited the characteristics of a narcissist, sociopath, or addict. ## HOW TO RECOGNIZE THEIR TRUE CHARACTER **Anne:** The most important thing is realizing you’ve discovered his true character. If you’re listening and still confused about his true character. Is he really this type of abuser? I created [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) to answer this very question. Enrolling in this workshop will help you determine his true character. And help you determine if he is this type of exploitative person with that level of deception. Or if it was just a mistake because he didn’t understand. [The Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) will also help you know what safety strategies to use as you observe. To figure out what his character is. Since I started educating people about this type of abuse. I’ve come into contact with so many therapists who use many words. They use the word disorder. They like to diagnose. And all of it sounds like word salad to me. The more I’ve listened to all these so-called reasons or explanations of why this man is abusive. I don’t understand why they don’t just say he’s abusive. They say like, he’s got this disorder, which is abusive, and I’m like, well, why don’t you just say he’s abusive? That’s what abuse is. It’s confusing to me. It’s also confusing to me when women go to clergy for help. And they’ll suggest this is some type of sickness and health situation. But finding out your husband has a secrets. Is totally different than your husband being diagnosed with cancer. When someone is genuinely sick, they need your support and love. But if someone uses your support and love for his own exploitative purposes, he’s deceiving you on purpose to continue dangerous behaviors. That makes him dangerous to you. ## FINDING SAFETY & MIRACLES **Anne:** And because abusers already know what they’ve been doing. And why they’ve been communicating the way they have to deceive you. Communicating how their behavior has harmed us does not improve the situation. Because they already know, they just don’t care. There was a time in my marriage when I had a Willy Wonka attitude about it. If I wanted the golden ticket enough, I would get it. If I wanted him to change, I could pray and have faith, and not give up hope. And miracles could happen. I believe in miracles. But I discovered that focusing on my own emotional and psychological safety created so many miracles. I am the miracle, my life is the miracle. So determining your husband’s true character is the first step on your way to a miracle. Again, to find out more about [The Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) and how it can help you determine your husband’s character. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [What If My Husband Says He Doesn't Love Me?](https://www.btr.org/husband-says-he-doesnt-love-me/) **Published:** November 25, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** It's hard to know what to do when your husband doesn't love you anymore. If this has happened to you, here's what you need to know. **Content:** Many women ask, “What if my husband says he doesn’t love me??” It will surprise you to know that it’s actually a lie. Here’s what you need to know. Did you know there are 19 different types of emotional abuse? To see if you can recognize the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take our [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ## TRANSCRIPT: WHAT TO DO WHEN YOUR HUSBAND SAYS HE DOESN’T LOVE YOU **Anne:** Today we’re gonna cover what happens when your husband says he doesn’t love you anymore. We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Denise. This happened to her. Here’s a preview of what she said. *“I felt like he hates me. He hates my guts. I had asked him , “When did your heart turn against me?” So then he tells me…”* You’ll find out what he tells her later on in the story. If this has happened to you, where your husband has told you he doesn’t love you anymore. Here are two things to consider. Number one, get educated about emotional and psychological abuse because there’s a chance that this is part of your story, even if it doesn’t seem like it. You’ll hear about how Denise’s husband used two psychological abuse tactics: mirroring and countering. So as you listen, see if you can identify when that happens. And number, two is to observe their actions. And I’ll talk more about that in today’s interview. So welcome, Denise. ## WHEN YOUR HUSBAND SAYS HE DOESN’T LOVE YOU **Denise:** Yeah, I met my ex online. I was in my 40s and had never been married. I always said I didn’t want to get married until I met the one. Like, *the one*, and I made sure, because I didn’t want a bad marriage. Um, turns out that I apparently didn’t know what that looked like. So Yeah, he’d been, married before, was a widower, he took care of his late wife, and, seemed to be financially responsible. The first date was great. But then on the next date, we went for a hike, and I was asking him questions, and he couldn’t answer simple questions, like, what’s your favorite movie? ## MAYBE HE’S JUST NOT READY **Denise:** The third date was just awkward, something feels off. And I told him I wouldn’t date him. I didn’t think he was ready for a relationship, like maybe he needed to heal some more. **Anne**: How long after his wife’s death did you start? **Denise**: Like three and a half months So I told him I wouldn’t date him. But we were hanging out as friends and we would argue all the time. People would say, “what are you arguing about?” Like, I don’t even know, I don’t know what we were arguing about. It was really confusing to me because I’m not a really argumentative person, but for some reason I was drawn to him. ## HIS SUDDEN HEART CHANGE: MAYBE HE DOES LOVE ME **Denise**: And then all of a sudden, literally one day, he changed and there was no more arguing. It was almost like this happy wife, happy life thing. I thought okay, he hadn’t dated in a long time, that was a fluke. That’s what I thought. That was a fluke. He’s realized he was just being an idiot and now he’s ready to step up and be himself and be respectful. **Anne:** Wow! That was a sudden heart change. **Denise**: Yes, exactly. And then after that, we got along really well. I had so much fun. Looking back now, I can see things that I didn’t notice at the time, but at the time, everything seemed great. I just kept telling people like how blessed I was. This was amazing. His friends were all telling me how wonderful he was and random people we would meet would tell me like, “you are lucky, he is a good man.” My family loved him. I mean, it was like everybody. No one thought there would be a time where I’d have to figure out what to do if my husband says he doesn’t love me anymore. No one ever thought something like that would ever happen. **Anne**: Did he have kids from his first marriage? **Denise**: He did. They were preteen, and early teen. ## HIS SUDDEN HEART CHANGE: CONFUSION **Denise:** There were a couple of little other flukes that happened while we were dating or after we were engaged and I thought they were flukes, one of them happened when my niece was graduating from college and I wanted to go to her graduation. We were engaged at the time and he had never been to that area of the United States. So, he’s like, “why don’t you plan the trip then, since you’ve been there before and we can do our family vacation and go to your niece’s graduation at the same time.” I’m like, Oh, that would be wonderful. Like I’d been there. He hadn’t. So, we asked the kids if they wanted to do anything like specific in that area. They didn’t want to look anything up. So I was like, I guess I’m planning it. And he was like, “I trust you.” So, we go on this trip and he starts getting angry at me for not having planned it better and I was like, really confused. That’s what a lot of this whole thing was, a lot of confusion. Like, you asked me to plan it, if you wanted to do it a certain way, you should have stepped in and planned it yourself or said you wanted something else. I mean, it’s common sense. I saw on that trip what he was just, angry, bitter, and yelling at me. ## PRE-WEDDING TENSIONS **Denise**: That was, before the wedding and I thought it was a one off. **Anne**: like a fluke. **Denise**: Mm hmm. And then, there was one more that I see now as major. I thought it was him being under a lot of stress. It was right before the wedding. He said he wanted our bank accounts to be merged, which is what I wanted. I wanted 100 percent commitment, all in, everything shared. I wanted to be a stay at home mom. That was my goal. He was totally up for that. So, right before the wedding, he starts getting angry that he’s paying more for the wedding than I am. And I was like, weird, cause we’re merging everything. He wasn’t arguing that he didn’t want something at the wedding. He was saying he wanted me to pay for it. **Anne**: Are you okay if we pause right here? **Denise**: totally ## MIRRORING EXPLAINED **Anne**: This is how mirroring works. He’s not gonna tell you how he feels until you tell him how you feel, so he can just mirror back to you your own interests and your own opinions. So he’s gonna find out what your favorite movie genre is, and then he’s gonna say, me too. He’s gonna wait until he knows how you feel about politics. And then he’s going to mirror your opinions back to you. And then later he’ll have a “change of heart” when really he didn’t have those opinions in the first place. So in terms of choosing a good husband, if you’re thinking about dating or getting to know someone, try asking them questions like this before you tell them how you feel and see how they respond. **Denise**: That actually makes complete sense. I hadn’t thought of it in that way but now that you say that, I was thinking back, like, after I told him what my favorite movie was, then he said that he liked that one too. Most everything, it seemed like it was a fluke that he liked the same things I did, it was like, oh my , we’re like exactly the same. This is crazy. I’m like, yeah, this is crazy. I never, imagined that we would like this many things the same. ## COUNTERING EXPLAINED **Anne**: So when you talked about this period of time where you were just friends and he was arguing with you quite a bit. My guess is that he was countering. Countering is an abuse tactic where they counter basically, everything you say. It’s very similar to like a 15 year old. My son counters right now from time to time, cause he’s 15 and I’m like legit every single thing I’m saying you’re disagreeing with. And he’s like, “no, I’m not.” I’m like, there you go again. This is happening right now. It’s a really immature way of trying to overpower somebody else. He was countering maybe, to determine how confident you were in your opinions. And when he realized you’re very confident in your opinions, he also realized he wasn’t gonna be able to groom you that way. And then, he made an abrupt heart change to acting kind and egalitarian. That’s where you saw that shift when he realized you weren’t looking for the strong, like take charge type. She’s looking more for a partner. It sounds like it was either arguing or everything was perfect. **Denise**: Yeah, that is how it felt and that’s the way it was. It was extreme. ## BETTER COMMUNICATION WON’T MAKE HIS HEART CHANGE **Anne**: They use communication in this way to manipulate. That’s why learning to communicate better doesn’t solve an abuse problem, and that’s why the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free strategies](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) are so important. Using those strategies will help you see what their true intent is and what they’re actually doing. So he was using those tactics on you, and you didn’t realize it because, why would you? We’re not educated on what to do if your husband says he doesn’t love us. Did you know about any porn use? **Denise**: That was really important for me to talk to him about before the wedding. He said he had a box of *Playboys* in the basement. And he was like, “I don’t want to have anything to do with that, I just need to destroy those.” So he told me he burned all of them and I tried really hard not to push him, because I wanted anything like that to come from him. He wasn’t Catholic. I didn’t ask him to become Catholic. I just told him going to church was really important to me and going together was really important to me. So we went to both churches. ## HIS SUDDEN HEART CHANGE: POST-WEDDING **Denise**: But then, I noticed on the honeymoon that he was doing things on purpose to hurt me. Like there were things before that hurt me, you know, I didn’t like that, or we need to work on this. He would like, abruptly turn away from me in bed, just like a rejection. And I told him I didn’t like it and he just kept doing it. I was like, okay, this is meant to hurt me, which was very shocking to me because I thought I married my knight in shining armor, the countering got so bad while we were… I don’t even like to say intimate because it wasn’t reality, like within weeks of the wedding, he was screaming at me, telling me that I was selfish and that I didn’t care about him. I’m like, what is happening here? Screaming isn’t one of the [types of physical intimacy](https://www.btr.org/types-of-physical-intimacy/), ha ha. I am super confused. I mean, you know, you’ve been through it, all the torture, the angst. **Anne:** So when he starts doing this on the honeymoon during intimate times, and I agree with you, calling it intimacy is like a joke because it wasn’t intimate at all, and you recognize this is on purpose. What did you think was the cause of this sudden heart? **Denise**: I just thought he needed healing, you know, he had a rough childhood. He was married. She was ill for a long time. He said she was depressed all the time and then she passed away. Raising his kids on his own, like he couldn’t handle stuff. ## FINANCIAL CONTROL & ISOLATION AFTER HE SAYS HE DOESN’T LOVE YOU **Denise**: At this point I had lost my job. We had spent all of my money on groceries. My bank accounts were empty. I had absolutely nothing. He wouldn’t put me on the accounts. He kept saying he was going to like, “Oh, I forgot. Oh, we should have done that.” So, I had no income, no job, and no money in the bank. I’m destitute. At this point, I had already had one miscarriage, and I took another pregnancy test. It was negative, but he thought it was positive and he thought I was pregnant. He was like, “yeah, I think you should leave.” **Anne**: And you’ve been single, so you’re used to being independent. You’re used to to paying your own bills. And then to be in this vulnerable position of realizing that your husband doesn’t love you for the first time must have felt like a trap. **Denise**: yeah. ## DIFFERENT PATHS & NO MERCY WHEN HE SAYS HE DOESN’T LOVE YOU ANYMORE **Anne**: that is shocking. **Denise**: But I thought we were on the same path going the same direction and there were these like little jolts off of the path, but that he really wanted to be on that path and he would come back and we would keep moving in the same direction. Four months after the wedding, things had gotten so bad. He was screaming at me all the time. I kind of laugh, but it’s not funny at all. I mean, I look back and I’m just like, what the heck? It was just insane. He kept bringing up that trip we had taken, blaming me because we didn’t do things that were kid friendly and, literally, I was begging him, like, I’m trying to be the best mom and wife that I can be please give me some mercy. For, not knowing what the kids would enjoy, like I’m doing the best I can, yeah, I’m going to fail. I’m not perfect. Don’t you think I deserve a little bit of mercy? And in front of one of his kids, he said, “you don’t deserve mercy.” It’s just like, there’s nowhere to go, nowhere to go with that. ## FACING THE TRUTH WHEN YOUR HUSBAND HAS STOPPED LOVING YOU Anne: So, at this point, when you see that your husband says he’s had a drastic heart change, what did you do? **Denise**: I finally started telling people what was going on. And I have a few friends who told me about the cycle of abuse. I didn’t have any bruises or anything, I was confused, and knew this wasn’t healthy. So, I looked it up and I was like, this is exactly what’s happening, but It’s not just like I’m dating and he’s abusive to me. There was a wedding. And of course, like most women do, oh, but this is the way he was. Is he going to get back to this point? So, when I was shown the truth, I started searching for a therapist and trying to do everything I could to to heal it. ## SEEKING HELP & THERAPY WHEN HE DOESN’T LOVE YOU ANYMORE **Denise**: During the time that we were together, we saw four different therapists. Three of them sided with him, even after he was either abusive to me in front of them or he told them he was abusive to me. They still sided with him. At one point he is sitting face to face, my hands in his hands and he’s telling me how much he loves me and he’s so sorry and one therapist was like, “don’t you hear him? Can’t you hear him?” I was just like, I don’t even know if he means it right now, but in five minutes he’s not going to, that’s the problem. And she didn’t get it. **Anne**: This is crazy pants! Were you surprised at how unhelpful therapy was? Because couples therapy is kind of like everybody’s solution. And many therapists don’t consider the possibility that your husband says he doesn’t love you or he is abusive if he’s coming to couples therapy with you. **Denise**: Yes. One of the questions I asked before we chose this therapist was, “Can you spot narcissism?” **Anne**: Did she say yes? **Denise**: Of course, of course, they all say yes. And after that, she wouldn’t even answer my calls. I think she was probably so confused by the whole thing. **Anne**: It’s really hard when you go to someone for help, and you have to educate them about what’s happening rather than the other way around. ## FIRST ATTEMPT TO LEAVE **Denise**: Then about a month later, I left him the first time. I called someone to tell them I was leaving and that I was worried about his kids. This person told me, “we all knew it wasn’t going to work out…He was completely fake the whole time you were dating.” I was like, why didn’t anybody tell me this? They said it was “because they were afraid that, he wouldn’t let them have a relationship with the kids.” But this person hadn’t been really nice to me. So I was like, Oh, do I trust this person or not? I have no idea. Are they playing me? I must’ve been looking up [betrayal trauma](/terms), and I found the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast](https://www.btr.org/podcast/) and I ended up listening quite a bit. I was able to use all the tools from the [betrayal podcast](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/why-is-my-husband-constantly-on-his-phone-the-research/id1118969643?i=1000408857873) and from the group, because I was in the group a total of a year and a half. Going to [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/) was so enlightening. I could not have done this without [BTR.ORG](https://www.btr.org/). Unfortunately, after that, he was like, “there’s this retreat thing. A Catholic retreat for people on the verge of the [decision to divorce](https://www.btr.org/should-i-get-a-divorce/), to try to heal the relationship.” And they say in there, “if there’s abuse, this doesn’t work.” So he set it up. We went to that and he said, “I want this, I want to be with you, blah, blah, blah,” and of course, he acted like everything was great and we’re all healed. That was right when all the COVID lockdowns were just starting and I was like, I should be with him to figure this out. ## TEMPORARY RECONCILIATION **Denise**: So, I moved back. and it was actually decent, for quite a while. And then eight months later, it started going downhill really fast. So I was trying to get to another therapist and on the same day that we’re meeting with a therapist, he tells me he has a meeting with a divorce lawyer. Just like why are we meeting with a therapist if you’re meeting with a divorce lawyer, and then he told one of his kids he was divorcing me. I felt like this guy hates me. He hates my guts. I had asked him, when did you stop loving me? Because I still didn’t understand that it was all fake beforehand. ## MY HEART CHANGE: THE BREAKING POINT **Denise**: So then, he tells me that it was at our reception. **Anne**: Your wedding reception?! **Denise**: Yes…I know, right?! **Anne**: What in the world?! **Denise**: …He overheard this friend saying, “she’s got herself a sugar daddy.” And that was it, according to him, which is just a lie anyway. Like, you don’t turn against your spouse because somebody makes a joke! **Anne**: yeah. **Denise**: Even if you don’t like the joke. **Anne**: No. **Denise**: Yeah. I was just in shock, and I was like, well, the timeline makes sense. ## THE REAL TIMELINE OF “HE DOESN’T LOVE ME ANYMORE” UNVEILED **Anne**: The true timeline was the second he married you, he was like, now I don’t have to wear the mask anymore. **Denise**: Yeah. **Anne**: “She’s stuck with me.” So that’s the real timeline. After the reception, he didn’t feel like he had to treat you well anymore. Not that he overheard somebody tell a joke. **Denise**: Yeah. I think honestly, he was telling people negative things about me before the wedding. There were people who weren’t going to go to our wedding, because they didn’t like that he was marrying a Catholic. It didn’t cross my mind that he would be complaining about me to his friends. So, a lot of his friends didn’t want to come to the wedding. ## IF HUSBAND SAYS HE DOESN’T LOVE YOU, IT COULD BE MANIPULATION **Anne**: Um, through all the interviews I’ve done, I see a lot of patterns. One I see frequently is goldfish brain. They only care about the thing they want in the moment, like right then, like what is right in front of them. And so they’ll say something to get that thing. And then literally two hours later, they’ll want something else, hence the heart change. So, they’ll say the opposite thing to get the other thing, and it’s so confusing. So, to have him throw you under the bus at his own wedding, thinking that’s going to benefit him somehow, while also grooming you long term…this is a sure sign that he never loved you. There’s these two simultaneous things that seem contradictory, but they have a goal in mind and they play the long game to get what they want. They’re able to groom you until they get what they want. It just shows how unsafe the situation is for you, psychologically and emotionally. **Denise**: Yeah, it’s just some crazy stuff so, I ended up leaving again. ## FINANCIAL ABUSE EXPOSED **Denise:** We ended up going to counseling and while we were in front of this counselor he tells me that “he took all of the money out of the account so that I couldn’t have anything.” I had a new job at this point and I was making a decent amount of money. But he says that in front of the counselor. This is financial abuse. **Anne**: Absolutely, yeah! ## THERAPIST’S DENIAL **Denise**: I mean, he said it right in front of the counselor. So months later, when I was trying to get the counselor to write something for me the counselor said, “well, I can’t lie and say he was abusive.” **Anne:** WHAT?!! **Denise**: I was like, I’m not asking you to lie. He was abusive right in front of you. He told me in front of you that he took all the money out of the joint account so that I wouldn’t get any. Didn’t you take notes? He never responded. **Anne:** He wouldn’t even admit your husband doesn’t love you?! **Denise:** Guess not. **Anne:** Sorry. This is the woman who’s always telling people therapists don’t get it and I’m like, what? **Denise:** And then you’re shocked. Yeah. Yeah. **Anne:** It’s still shocking. When it’s clear…I’m thinking that he’s financially abusive in my head and I’m not saying that out loud. But then, to hear that a therapist just completely doesn’t acknowledge that it’s abuse, is so crazy. **Denise**: Yeah, I was in like crazy land. ## SEPARATION & COUNSELING WHEN HUSBAND SAYS HE DOESN’T LOVE YOU **Denise**: So we’re apart and I’m in my own apartment. I think I just knew myself well enough, that I had to keep trying until I got to a point where I was absolutely sure this was never going to work. So we were apart for like 10 months. I told him I wasn’t going to move back into that other house it’s like, I’m not moving back in there. These are the things I need. While we’re apart, I’m going to the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/) that are super helpful and really eye opening, but I didn’t quite get it. Then, we ended up getting this house, everything fell into place. I told him, do you really want this? Because if this happens again, I’m leaving and it’s for good. There’s not going to be any more back and forth. He said, “This is it. And of course, oh, yeah, of course. I’m so sorry and all this stuff.” ## HUSBAND SAYS HE DOESN’T LOVE ME ANYMORE: FALSE PROMISES & CONVERSION **Denise**: He decided to become Catholic, so he started learning about the faith and going to church. And he’s like, will you be my sponsor? I’m like, no, if you’re doing this, you’re doing it on your own, cause I knew if I helped in any way he would accuse me of forcing him. So I was like, if you want to become Catholic, that’s your own thing. I never asked you to do it. I’m not pushing you. So he went through the whole process and became Catholic and things got, you know, “better and better.” **Denise**: And, um, yeah, within nine months, I moved out again. ## MY HEART CHANGE: REALIZATION & EDUCATION **Anne**: That point, you’d been going to [Betrayal Trauma](https://www.btr.org/group/) Recovery Group sessions. You’d been more educated about abuse from hearing other women’s stories on this [betrayal podcast](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/betrayal-trauma-recovery-btr-org/id1118969643?i=1000408857873). So at this point, was it a little bit, I don’t want to say easier cause it’s never easy. And I don’t want to say that it ever is easy. There seems to be some kind of point where it clicks that he never loved you, he’s abusive, and I need to make some changes. At least there was for me where I just knew I wasn’t going to do it anymore. And up until that point, I don’t know if I could have anything else. You know, I was doing the very best I could. **Denise**: Yeah, absolutely. I knew it was abuse. My friends knew it was abuse. ## UNDERSTANDING ABUSE CYCLES WHEN HUSBAND SAYS HE DOESN’T LOVE YOU **Denise**: I thought the abuse was happening more often and getting worse over time. We were weaning out of this abusive pattern is what I thought. And so I was like, all right, we’ll just deal with it when we’re in this abusive pattern. ## OBSERVING & SETTING BOUNDARIES **Denise**: He started seeing a counselor he liked, and things got better. I saw the changes, but I didn’t feel as confident about it as I did before. Before I would argue. When I went back, I was like, I’m not arguing anymore. I’m just going to state what I need and want. That’s it. Then, when I went back the second time, I understood to observe. And then I knew it was time to get out of there. It wasn’t safe. ## CONFRONTATION WITH THE PRIEST WHEN YOUR HUSBAND SAYS HE DOESN’T LOVE YOU **Denise**: He was going to see the priest. And I said, I wanted to go too. So, we went, and literally he was screaming at me the whole time. The priest stood in front of him and tried to talk about integrity. He looked frustrated and finally asked my ex, “Do you even want to be married?” And my ex with this shocked look on his face was like, “Yes. Like, how could you ask that?” **Anne**: Like, he’s saying, “your husband doesn’t love you. It seems like he hates your guts.” **Denise**: Right. My ex said he felt trapped. And I was like, then leave! And he wouldn’t leave, I’m like, what is happening? Denise: Yeah. It’s so like ridiculous. Then the priest looked at me and asked, “Do you want to be married?” But I knew if I said no, that would start a ball rolling that I wasn’t ready for. ## PREPARING TO LEAVE **Denise**: So, I said, I’m not quite sure and, then I got my papers together, got them out of the house, did everything that I could. One of the kids went out with his family, and I thought, “I need to wait until he comes back.” I wanted him to return to school and get comfortable before I left. So, I waited another four or five days, which felt so hard. During that time, I kept telling him, “You’re going down this road, and you need to remember what I said.” If I leave, it’s going to be for good. Is that what you really want? Because that’s the direction you’re choosing. I could have left at any time, but I was praying like, I want the time that’s the best for me, that’s going to be best for the kids. If there is such a thing, that’s when I want to leave. ## THE DECISION TO LEAVE WHEN YOUR HUSBAND IS INCAPABLE OF LOVING YOU **Denise**: And all of a sudden one morning it was like, today. I’m like, all right, today. I’m leaving today. **Anne**: You bring up a good point, because so many women share, and I was this way, too. It just didn’t feel right to leave and I honor that. And then, at the same time, it’s abuse. There’s no part where you’re going to feel like this is great. It’s just always going to feel terrible. And then, you just realize that he’s never been capable of loving anybody. **Denise**: Yeah. And it’s never the wrong time to leave either. It’s not like you have to stay until, you know, you can leave whenever. I didn’t think God wanted me in an abusive relationship, and you need this one more little bit of abuse and then you’re good to go or anything like that. You know, I just felt like, all right, I’m good to go. Like I’m ready and it’s time. So, that’s when I left. ## BIBLICAL INSIGHT WHEN YOUR HUSBAND CHOOSES NOT TO LOVE YOU **Denise**: I wanted to see [what does the bible say about narcissistic abuse](https://www.btr.org/what-does-the-bible-say-about-narcissistic-abuse/). So I found these verses and I want to read you. I don’t hear anybody talking about. And to me, it has spoken volumes. **Anne**: Yes, please. **Denise**: It’s Second Timothy, chapter three, verses one through nine in the revised standard Catholic edition. “In the last days, there will come times of stress. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, inhuman, implacable, slanderers.” I don’t even know what this word is, “profligates, fierce, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding the form religion, but denying the power of it. Avoid such people.” I found that and like, a light came down from heaven. It seems to describe narcissism. **Anne**: Perfectly. **Denise**: Yeah, perfectly. I don’t know why nobody else is quoting that. And then it says, leave them. Like, don’t be around these people. **Anne**: I love that scripture. I don’t know if I’ve ever quoted it on the [betrayal podcast](https://open.spotify.com/show/54IhlM7JEJXK3geocKn2hG?si=829fe0165e114670), but I’m familiar with it for that same reason. Scriptures say all over the place, separate yourself from wickedness repeatedly, over and over. When he can’t love, it’s wickedness. It’s shocking that no one calls these guys wicked. Here’s why. **Denise**: Yeah. It explains a lot of what evil looks like, and it looks exactly like narcissism. Really intelligent, but at the same time, this four year old tantrum. **Anne**: Yes. ## FACING EVIL WHEN YOUR HUSBAND HATES YOU **Denise**: Yeah, I would describe my experience as being toe to toe with evil. It’s not For the weak hearted. **Anne**: No. Women who come and share their story, like you have seen evil, looked evil in the face and had to figure out what to do. When he has never loved us, we felt tricked, but we still tried to do the right thing. It’s so much more difficult than anyone can imagine. ## PERSONAL GROWTH THROUGH ADVERSITY WHEN YOUR HUSBAND SAYS HE DOESN’T LOVE YOU **Denise**: Like at the time, and for a long time afterward, I would not have said this, but I actually am at the point where I look back and I’m like, I like who I am so much better after having gone through this evil situation. If I had to choose between who I was before and who I am now, I would pick who I am now. To become this person, I had to go through this situation, but I would do it all over again. It was hard, but it helped me grow and change for the better. And I think that’s a testament to God, his whole goal is for us to have good, and can bring good out of any horrendous situation. **Anne**: I get it especially when women are new and they’re not safe yet. The idea that an experience can make someone a better person sounds unfair. It feels like saying, “If you were the person you should be, this wouldn’t have happened to you.” This puts the blame on the person, which isn’t right. Or alternatively, women who are thinking they have to suffer through this, thinking they don’t deserve safety and that God is like using their suffering to make them a better person. God doesn’t want you to suffer because your husband doesn’t love you. He knows you’re not a bad person, and you didn’t deserve this to make you better. You’re a wonderful person now, he loves you just the way you are. And through this awful experience, we do learn interesting things that I’m grateful for. I am grateful that I am the person I am now. Because of what I went through, I have a heart change that values my safety. ## PRACTICAL LESSONS LEARNED WHEN HE CAN’T LOVE **Denise:** I learned a few practical things. Now, I can see similar situations that I didn’t notice before. I noticed that some people in my life made me feel unsafe, so I decided to cut them out. Now I feel better and more at peace. Before, I didn’t understand that. After I left the last time, I thought I would finally feel relief, but I didn’t. That’s when I saw that a few other people treated me the same way, or in a very similar way. And, it was painful to cut them out, but after I cut them out, I felt the relief. **Anne**: And that’s why we’re here. Getting to safety is such an individual journey for everyone. The only thing any of us can do on this path is continue to listen to our internal warning system (see our [educational infographics about betrayal on Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/btr.org_)) that is telling us if we’re safe or not, and continue to evolve our boundaries until we feel that relief. It’s our own version of a heart change for the better. And I talk about this in the Living Free Workshop. And then you still don’t feel relief and then you try again and it still isn’t quite working and then you try again like, just as an example, that, Catholic retreat you went to for couples on the verge of divorce. ## RESISTING & EVOLVING: A HEART CHANGE WHEN HUSBAND SAYS HE DOESN’T LOVE YOU **Anne**: Did you know that was you resisting this abuse? That was you recognizing that he never loved you, and evolving, having your own heart change. At the time, you thought, “Maybe this couple’s retreat will help me find safety.” And then you learn from experience that it didn’t. So, then you evolved and said, “Okay, now I know I can’t go to therapy with him at all, because he hasn’t had a heart change that made me feel safe.” We grow and change over time. Now, you might say, “I feel relief and safe.” For me, I felt relief when I used the Living Free strategies and gained full custody of my kids. After my divorce, someone hurt me for eight years. I kept wondering, “How can I find real safety?” Then, I found a way to take control and create a safe life for myself and my kids. ## SUPPORT & SOLIDARITY WHEN HUSBAND SAYS HE DOESN’T LOVE YOU **Anne:** I’m so glad that [Betrayal Trauma](https://www.btr.org/) Recovery was helpful to you. **Denise:** Yeah, it was a lifesaver. I went to groups. For a while I went once a day, and then, the second time I joined, it was a few times a week. The coaches were always amazing and so kind, but also firm and direct. Hearing from the other women really helped me, because you’re in this bubble, kind of, in your relationship. I don’t want to really call it a relationship, in your situation, like you’re the only one experiencing it, so you don’t see all the nuances. I really think evil is not creative. It feels like the same thing keeps happening again and again. That’s why so many stories seem so similar. I remember someone saying she thought she lost something. She searched and searched for it for a long time. Suddenly, I realized, “Oh, that’s what the hiding was about!” It made me remember, “That happened to me, and I didn’t even know it was abuse.” Learning the right words for these things has helped me so much. I am Catholic, and I’m going through the annulment process right now. Thanks to [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/), I learned terms like “mirroring” and “future faking.” With this knowledge, I feel confident and clear as I write my annulment letter. It was helpful to wrap my mind around the truth of this situation, that my husband doesn’t love me. ## THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE: YOUR HEART CHANGE WHEN YOUR HUSBAND SAYS HE DOESN’T LOVE YOU **Anne**: I’m so glad it was helpful. My whole goal in life is to help women see the truth, like your husband doesn’t love you or whatever the truth is. Whether it’s painful or not. The [Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/ "Living Free Workshop") strategies are a way to observe from a safe distance, so that women see the truth, and have their own heart change for their safety. I’m so glad that you’re safe it’s such a brave thing to share your story and it will help a lot of women. So thank you. **Denise:** And thank you for everything you do. You’re very courageous. I tell so many women about [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/contact/ "Betrayal Trauma Recovery"). **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [How to Recover After Infidelity - 4 Questions to Ask](https://www.btr.org/how-to-recover-after-infidelity/) **Published:** December 30, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Wondering how to recover after infidelity? Healing starts with emotional safety and truth, not the marriage. **Content:** For many women who’ve discovered their husband has had a secret life, learning how to recover after infidelity isn’t about fixing the relationship; it’s about finding emotional safety, clarity, and courage to stop chasing explanations and start protecting your peace. ## HOW TO RECOVER AFTER INFIDELITY: FOUR QUESTIONS EVERY BETRAYED WOMAN ASKS Women who go through this generally ask four questions: 1. If he really loved me, why did he do this? 2. If he lied to me for so long, how do I know he’s being honest right now? 3. How can I ever trust him again? 4. Did I ever really know him? So if you’re trying to figure out how to recover after infidelity, Bethany’s story will help you understand what emotional safety and clarity look like when the truth feels impossible. Discover if you are a victim, take our[ free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ## TRANSCRIPT: HOW TO RECOVER AFTER INFIDELITY **Anne:** I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Bethany. Like many women who contact BTR, she didn’t just deal with his lies, she dealt with the shock of realizing that her entire reality may have been built on lies. **Bethany:** The first time I found them, I was getting ready for work and it popped up on his phone. And then I went down a rabbit hole, I guess, looking through his phone. I found out that he was messaging both men and women. **Anne:** Today’s episode is about that moment of discovery, the one that changes everything. She found messages she wasn’t meant to see, and those messages exposed an entire secret life. This is her story about how to recover after infidelity. Welcome, Bethany. **Bethany:** Thank you. **Anne:** I’m so grateful that you would share your story today. So, Bethany, let’s start at the beginning. **Bethany:** I’m very grateful to have found Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group. I was searching for some sort of support and community after everything that had happened. So when we were dating, things progressed quickly within our relationship. He was successful in his work. I was successful in my work. He was charismatic, he made me laugh, he was into fitness, and that was important to him. Looking back, I may have ignored some pretty large red flags to focus on all the things I liked about him, like his personality and his physical appearance. Within the first month of dating, I could see there were a lot of highs and lows. And I focused more on the good rather than the lows. ## EARLY DISCOVERIES & DISMISSALS THAT POINTED TO INFIDELITY **Bethany:** But, about two months into dating, I started seeing text messages. He was reaching out and soliciting oral sex and other inappropriate messages. **Anne:** How did you find these texts ? **Bethany:** The first time I found them, I was getting ready for work, and it popped up on his phone. And then I went down a rabbit hole, I guess, looking through his phone. I found out that he was messaging both men and women. I was not religious. He denied it was anything, and I don’t remember exactly what he said, but I did end up believing him. Very quickly, we got engaged, and then we found out we were pregnant. There was more verbal abuse while I was pregnant. And ended up getting married a month later. So it was very quick. This is the person you’re giving your life to, and the one person you should trust the most. I found out that he watched pornography. He denied it. It’s extremely confusing. I didn’t know how to recover after infidelity. Then, I found out he was on same sex dating apps and reaching out pursuing men and I’m wondering, [is my husband gay](https://www.btr.org/is-my-husband-gay/)? He’s always been very homophobic, almost, and critical of gay people. He would get very defensive if you confronted him about it, and I don’t know what any other explanation there is. **Anne:** What explanation would he give? ## HOW TO RECOVER AFTER INFIDELITY WHEN THE TRUTH KEEPS SHIFTING **Bethany:** He said there was no excuse for his actions, except that he started watching pornography early, and it became more graphic which led to being curious about other things. He denied he is gay. He said he’s disgusted by what he has done. **Anne:** I think the most confusing thing was that I couldn’t ever get a straight answer because the answers didn’t make sense. Because so many things seemed so, elusive. I’d try to hold onto it and I couldn’t quite. It would just disintegrate in my hands. I’ve come to believe he chose to do that. How to recover from infidelity when everything keeps shifting? **Bethany:** Yeah, it’s a hard realization, and you wanna try to figure out the reasons why he’s lying or the [causes of sexual addiction](https://www.btr.org/sex-addiction-therapist-near-me/). But he made that choice. It doesn’t make sense to me. I’m like, if something disgusts me, why would you do it? **Anne:** Well, it could have been that you didn’t wanna try it, but peer pressure or coercion. Women do things they don’t wanna do all the time due to coercion. So many women have sex when they don’t wanna have sex, due to coercion. I’ve never wanted to smoke cigarettes, so it’s never been difficult for me to not smoke cigarettes. Because no one was coercing him to look at gay pornography. People generally, from my experience, don’t look at gay pornography unless they want to. **Bethany:** Exactly, at the end of the day, it was something you desired and wanted to do and chose. I think lying definitely was one of the hardest things, because when there are secrets, it’s hard to go from there. How do you trust someone after that? ## WHEN FAITH COMMUNITIES DON’T UNDERSTAND: HOW TO RECOVER AFTER INFIDELITY **Bethany:** I first turned to the church, to my pastor, and she had me put together a list of boundaries. So I put it together all in writing. Because I believed God can work if you take that step and let the Holy Spirit lead you. I did one COSA meeting, I felt like it was blaming me. Then like I started to feel like I was codependent and that’s why all of this happened. We did a marriage intensive. **Anne:** For sex addiction? **Bethany:** Yes, emotional intimacy and sex addiction. Because I feel like that is the first place you look when you’re trying to work with someone. I told my story within counseling and the church support groups. It brought on a whole different level of confusion and hurt. It was just, like distorted reality. Almost like I go out and have fun, and then pretend like it didn’t happen. I wasn’t facing the issue. I didn’t want to believe it. So I believed what he said, and then it just escalated to the point where I had no other choice. I had to get to the truth and learn how to recover after infidelity. I was at work. He lost his job. It was over the weekend, and [my husband is on phone all the time](/husband-is-on-phone-all-the-time/). And we have a baby. We were all spending time with the baby, having a family day, and went to bed that night. I find out he was, on his phone again, messaging on different dating apps. It was really traumatizing to see how many people that there were. And then there were explicit videos and messages. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## HE HAD SOMEONE IN OUR HOUSE WITH OUR CHILDREN **Bethany:** And how I came to find that I was on my five-year-old’s iPad and a location share came up. I recognized the name from early on in our relationship. It was a man and I asked him about it and he got very aggressive and upset. So I find out that he had this individual over while I was at work. I think I didn’t really know how to feel in that moment. I went through all of the stages of trauma and grief in terms of numbing and isolating. It was just gut wrenching to think about the fact that he was messaging these things and asking someone to come over to our home with our children there. It added a whole other layer to my confusion. The person I loved and committed my life to has a secret life that you don’t know about. So I don’t know who this person is, and I’ve been sharing my life with a complete stranger. And there’s a lot of fear with that. I was searching for more specific support from someone who had already been through it, other people that you can relate to. I came across BTR. And I was like wow, this is really, really helpful. I started listening to the podcast, and the resources made available through BTR helped me navigate that next step in learning how to recover after infidelity. Your [betrayal trauma support group](/group/) gave me live support. The BTR resources I’ve used a lot considering where do I go from here? I’ve been looking at how to tell [if your husband will change](/can-my-husband-change/). And I’m still using that, because the signs of changing, you have to see consistently over time. It’s not something you can tell him to do. ## SAFETY IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING **Bethany:** You said in there, don’t do it. So I didn’t, ’cause I wanted to know for myself if he was going to change. I utilize It as a guideline to determine if I’m going to stay in this relationship or what’s my exit strategy. I’m still evaluating. We separated, I first turned to my best friend, and she stayed with me. And then my mom flew in and stayed with me. **Anne:** That’s exactly what to do because observing and just watching, you’ll always know the truth and that’s the safest place to be. **Bethany:** Following the BTR podcast, hearing other people’s stories brought me additional comfort. And learning from those too. Cause I feel like it acknowledges the pain it caused, and being honest about the effects and consequences of the other’s actions. I think forgiving just means you’re doing it for yourself, and that the person owing the debt still owes that debt. **Anne:** Yeah, they do. I think they sometimes don’t realize that part. Just because you forgive the debt doesn’t mean they still don’t owe it. **Bethany:** Right, knowing other people have been through this same thing. And they’ve been able to leave, or move on, or whatever stage they’re in their process. **Anne:** Whatever is the right thing for them to do. Because at BTR, safety is the most important thing, and everyone defines that in different ways. When you are figuring out how to heal after infidelity, I do feel like wives, for the most part, feel like keeping their marriage intact is the safest option, especially when you have kids. ## TELLING YOUR STORY WILL HELP OTHERS **Anne:** So because you’re navigating a safety issue, what’s going to bring me the most safety is the better question. Has that been part of your process? Because that was for me. Divorce felt unsafe to me. And so that’s why I didn’t end up filing for divorce. Divorce seemed like the least safe thing of all my options. **Bethany:** Yeah, especially with children, I think, and even if you don’t have children. Because you don’t want that to be the reason, you have to evaluate what is truly the safest, you know? I think just going back to each person’s situation will be different. But, I wanted other people to know if they have similar situations, that there are other people. you giving me this opportunity to share my story. It’s helped me so much to do this. And to talk with you and have this BTR platform. I hope it helps. **Anne:** Yes, your story will. It will for sure help somebody. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [How Can I Trust My Husband Again? 5 Clear Ways to Know if You Can Finally Relax](https://www.btr.org/how-can-i-trust-my-husband-again/) **Published:** January 27, 2026 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** If your husband's actions make him untrustworthy, here's what that means for you. **Content:** After betrayal, one of the first questions a woman asks is, “How can I trust my husband again?” What she’s often really wondering is, how can she trust herself to know if he’s trustworthy, when it seemed like it was so easy for him to deceive her before. Women who want to feel emotionally safe again don’t need advice that pressures them to override their senses or their pain. ## 5 WAYS TO KNOW: HOW CAN I TRUST MY HUSBAND AGAIN? ### 1. IF HE’S TRUSTWORTHY, YOUR BODY WILL NOTICE So many women say that they sensed their husband’s story, timeline, or reactions were odd, even before they had proof of his deception. But they felt and were even told by their husband and sometimes others that they were “overreacting” or they’re accused of being “suspicious.” If your husband is becoming trustworthy, he’ll acknowledge that your feelings are valid and he’ll do whatever is needed to bring clarity and emotional safety. Your body can start to calm when you’re no longer having to be hyper-vigilant about everything. ### 2. HE WON’T MAKE YOUR PAIN THE PROBLEM The pain of learning that your husband lied to you, cheated, and had a double life is overwhelming and completely normal. A trustworthy man will acknowledge the pain he caused and he won’t pressure you to “get over it” or act like you’re punishing him. He will understand why you don’t trust him and he’ll tell the truth even when it means negative consequences for him. ### 3. YOU NO LONGER HAVE TO DIG FOR THE WHOLE TRUTH When a woman learns of her husband’s betrayal, every conversation about it can feel like an investigation. Often, the truth comes in bits and pieces. Your husband may have even said he didn’t tell you everything because he, “didn’t want to hurt you.” That might sound like compassion, but you can’t decide what’s best for your emotional safety if you don’t know the whole truth about your husband’s betrayal. If your husband is serious about being trustworthy, he won’t believe that it’s okay for you to not know everything. ### 4. HIS ACTIONS MAKE YOUR LIFE FEEL LIGHTER, NOT HEAVIER After a husband’s betrayal, many women are told that rebuilding trust is partly their responsibility. They’re encouraged to consider how his childhood wounds, stress, or shame caused him to be dishonest and to support him by making things easier for him at home. If he is becoming trustworthy, he won’t expect you to be responsible for any part of his repair or recovery. And he won’t let you struggle with managing the weight of his betrayal in addition to responsibilities at home alone just because he needs relief. ### 5. YOU WON’T HAVE TO BETRAY YOURSELF TO TRUST HIM This may be the clearest sign of all. Is he showing signs that you can you trust him to accept the truth about how you feel now. Does he accept that the relationship may never be the “same as it was?” If he’s becoming trustworthy, he won’t just be trying to get back to the way things were, he’ll accept what his betrayal did to you as a person and how it changed the relationship. ## SO, HOW CAN I TRUST MY HUSBAND AGAIN? If you feel anxious, suspicious, numb, angry, or afraid, it may mean your body is still trying to protect you. And that is perfectly normal. You don’t have to carry this alone. You deserve support from people who understand why betrayal feels so devastating. The first step to knowing if you can trust your husband again is to determine the truth about what’s going on. It may be that he’s using invisible emotional abuse tactics. To uncover if his lying is emotionally abusive, take our [free emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ## SUPPORT TO DETERMINE IF I CAN TRUST MY HUSBAND AGAIN To get live support from women who understand, join our [daily, online betrayal trauma support group](/group/). **This episode is part of Shelly’s Story** Part 1: *What If I Can Never Trust My Husband Again?* (THIS EPISODE) Part 2: *[How To Recover After Being Cheated On](https://www.btr.org/how-to-recover-after-being-cheated-on/)* ## TRANSCRIPT: HOW CAN I TRUST MY HUSBAND AGAIN **Anne:** I have a member of our community on today’s episode. I’m going to call her Shelly. She’s here to share her story of wondering what if she can ever trust her husband again? Welcome Shelly. **Shelly:** Hi, thank you. **Anne:** So Shelly has experienced betrayal trauma in multiple relationships. Let’s start at the beginning. **Shelly:** Okay, so I was actually born into betrayal trauma. I didn’t know that until recently. But my biological father cheated on my pregnant mother. So literally all that stuff in her body, all those hormones, feelings, and emotions when she was pregnant with me were going into me too, with so many [me too examples](https://www.btr.org/me-too-examples/). She sank into deep postnatal depression after my birth. And then, and obviously, betrayal trauma. ![What to Know when You Can Never Trust Your Husband Again](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-To-Know-When-You-Feel-Like-You-Can-Never-Trust-Your-Husband-Again.webp "What to Know when You Feel Like You Can Never Trust Your Husband Again")And she couldn’t fully take care of me. My mother neglected me as a baby, not through any fault of her own. Because she wasn’t able to cope emotionally with what she was going through. When I turned seven, she met my stepdad. Who I didn’t trust. I had this sense that there was something wrong, even as a child. And later, when I was in my teens, he was also leading a double life. He watched pornography, and made advances towards some of my male friends. When I was a teenager. This led me to jump out of the frying pan and into the fire. Because a much older man groomed me in his forties when I was around sixteen. I believed I was in a relationship with him, but now I understand it was not, I was his victim. ## TEENAGE TRAUMA & ABUSE **Shelly:** He abused me on every level you can imagine. He was an addict. And chose to use explicit material every day, like degrees beyond comprehension. He made no effort to hide this and was completely open about it. He humiliated me. I had [betrayal trauma from infidelity](https://www.btr.org/cheating-husband-says/). I was a young teenage woman, and he took photos of me and showed them around. Even now, I know they’re still in the world. Years later, after leaving him, I found out from friends that he’d shown them. He tried to make money off those, I don’t doubt that. I got pregnant at 19, and left him to protect my son. He beat me while I held him, this wasn’t unusual at all. He worsened the violence when I was pregnant. So when I had my son, I think I’d just turned 20, I was in the hospital for a week and he was having sex with someone else. ![What if I Can Never Trust My Husband Again](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-If-I-Cant-Ever-Trust-My-Husband-Again.webp "What if I Cant Ever Trust My Husband Again")I was with him for a very short time after that. And then I fled, and I left all my family and friends behind. And I left the county to try and find safety for my son. While learning to be a mother, I was also going through what I didn’t understand was PTSD, which I now understand. It was only years later that I understood this. **Anne:** Have you ever considered yourself a victim of trafficking with that man who took pictures of you and disseminated it as online? **Shelly:** I do now,. I was not comfortable. Because I saw the photos that he was like parading around, and you can see how uncomfortable I was. I have a son who’s not much younger than I was now. ## GROOMING & EXPLOITATION **Shelly**: I was a child, and he was friends with people in that world. I remember him saying to me, I could have you in prostitution if I wanted to. He said it like, I look after you so well, I’m not putting you into that world. Look how well I treat you. There was definitely the whole relationship, grooming, it was an abusive relationship. It was someone preying on someone who was young and naive. There are so many [types of exploitation](https://www.btr.org/types-of-exploitation/). **Anne:** Your story sounds similar to trafficking victims. They’re not aware of grooming. They think it’s a relationship, but they don’t realize he’s targeted them for this purpose. **Shelly:** A hundred percent, yeah. I’m aware of that now. But it took me a few years to, in fact it was fairly recently. I actually looked back and was like, that wasn’t a relationship. I was just, it was like trafficking. He used me and my body in any way he desired. He cheated me, lied, and now I’ve heard he’s in the industry. ![What to Do when You Can't Trust Your Husband](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-to-Do-When-You-Cant-Trust-Husband.webp "What to Do when You Cant Trust Husband")**Shelly:** Yeah, so I don’t have any contact with him. I disappeared, feared for my life, and ran away. **Anne:** He now is, but it sounds like he was at the time too. **Shelly:** Yeah, and he was around a lot of people in that sort of lifestyle. **Anne:** The exploitation business. **Shelly:** Exactly, he completely exploited me. I stayed there for four years with him through mental, emotional, physical, he’d used humiliation. He used to enjoy humiliating me in that way. It took a long time to get over. But then you can’t heal them. ## FINDING SAFETY & NEW RELATIONSHIPS **Shelly:** You fall into another [relationship and you’re abused](https://www.btr.org/daughter-in-an-abusive-relationship/) again. **Anne:** I’m so sorry. That sounds awful. **Shelly:** Yeah, it was years later. So since I had my son, I was looking for a safe family. I just wanted to bring my children up in a happy home. So I fell into another relationship with a man I believed I loved. Later, I found out he’s a complete pathological liar. He wasn’t violent with me. So I thought I was safe, because of my experience before. I didn’t [recognize what he was doing to me as abuse,](https://www.btr.org/betrayal-trauma-resources/) but he was verbally vile to me a lot. He broke my identity apart. He told me who I was and who I wasn’t, and chipped away at me. He’d go out all night, not come home, be full of lies. I knew, my heart knew he wasn’t loyal to me. So because of my past, I thought I had trust issues. And the men I’ve been with have propagated this idea. They’re like, oh yeah, you’ve got trust issues. This is the damage that you’ve got because of your past. **Anne:** Did he tell you you had trust issues as a way to manipulate you? **Shelly:** Yeah, completely. At the end of the relationship, I turned into a detective. And found out I was still breastfeeding my daughter when he had an affair with someone else. [And the way I found out was so horrific. I got an itemized phone bill, and there were thousands of the same number.](https://www.btr.org/how-does-infidelity/ "And the way I found out was so horrific. I got an itemized phone bill, and there were thousands of the same number.") My instincts told me something wasn’t right. So I got this itemized phone bill. I rang and a woman answered, and I just knew. ![What Can My Husband Do to Make Help Me Trust Him Again](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-Can-My-Husband-Do-To-Make-Me-Trust-Him-Again.webp "What Can My Husband Do to Make Me Trust Him Again")## HE TELLS SO MANY LIES **Shelly:** When I confronted him, the gaslighting went, like, through the roof. He pulled out all the stops. And so I called her with a completely open heart. And believed my husband lied to her too. Because I knew he was a liar, he was good at it. I’d seen him lie to people around us, and just think, like, why? I don’t understand why you’re lying about this stuff, when there’s no need to. He was just pathological with it, and I approached her. I messaged her. And said look, I believe he’s married and lying to you too. And she didn’t reply for a while, but then when she did, she sent me 17 screenshots of their messages together. ![Can You Ever Trust Husband Again After His Lies What You Need to Know](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Can-You-Ever-Trust-Husband-Again-After-Lies-What-You-need-to-Know.webp "Can You Ever Trust Husband Again After Lies What You Need to Know")I had a baby that was one years old, that I was breastfeeding. We’d not long been on our first family holiday. And he messaged this woman with my daughter sitting on his knee whilst we were on holiday. She verbally attacked me and called me every name under the sun. I approached her with no venom. He is lying to you as well. Because this is what’s actually happening. He is married. And she, the abuse I got off her was horrendous. She threatened my 16 year old son, messaged him and threatened him, she was awful. And, yeah, I lost a stone in two weeks after that. I stopped eating. I was in what I now know to be, strong [betrayal trauma](https://www.btr.org). My whole world was falling apart. ## MY FRIEND BECOMES MY PARTNER **Shelly:** That’s when my now partner came along. He was as a close friend for 20 years, even though we hadn’t seen each other all the time because we lived in different counties. He came along and he was like, he’s lying to you because he was pulling me back in. This guy twisted my head to the point where he called this other woman crazy, saying she was a stalker. He tried to pull me back in, and my sons, my oldest sons, said, mum, he’s lying to you. It was really hard to get out. It seemed like an orbit that I was in. I’d get so far away from him mentally and emotionally, and then he’d pull me back in. I’d be questioning what was real and what wasn’t. Again, my now partner helped so much with that. ![Will I Ever Trust My Husband Ever Again After He Lied](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/I-Cant-Trust-Husband-Ever-Again-After-He-Lied.webp "I Cant Trust Husband Ever Again After He Lied")Maybe a year later, my now partner opened his mouth and confessed that he’d always had deep feelings for me, which I’d always felt deeply for him. We’d known each other for 20 years, so it was like, suddenly everything in me lit up. It was like everything switched. All my ex’s power over me went, and suddenly I was full of love and light. So, we had the most beautiful love story. I had a fairy-tale level love story, like star crossed love that had been going on for 20 years. Neither of us ever spoke about it. And we’d been in different relationships. We went to each other’s weddings as friends. There was never anything lustful. It was always deep heart, caring. We share children now from past relationships. ## CAN I EVER TRUST MY HUSBAND AGAIN? DISCOVERING ANOTHER BETRAYAL **Shelly:** So I actually felt for the first time in my entire life that true love healed me. And that everything I’d been through before was leading to this, and it was like trials of fire to get to the other side. Or the island in the ocean of where stormy weather doesn’t go, but I’d found my safe space, I’d found my person. **Anne:** I’ll quote a country song from Rascal Flatts, “God bless the broken road that led me safe to you”. Like all these things, they were worth it. **Shelly:** Yes, exactly, **Anne:** I found you. **Shelly:** Fast forward seven years, I find out that he’s hiding an addiction. I don’t actually believe it’s an addiction. He made a choice and hid it from me. The [betrayal trauma](https://www.btr.org) I feel now is actually so much worse than anything I experienced before. Because he was the light at the end of the tunnel for me. And this relationship made me believe in true love again. And then, all that came crashing down on my first D-Day. I had many D-Days after the first admission. I believed I had damage and trust issues. And I actually said to him, I’m so sorry I have trouble trusting you, of course I didn’t know if I could trust my husband after that. [Because I’m damaged from my previous traumatic experiences with my other relationships, and even how I entered the world.](https://www.btr.org/what-is-marital-coercion/ "Because I'm damaged from my previous traumatic experiences with my other relationships, and even how I entered the world.") And he took that, and he allowed me to believe it was me. So I felt uncomfortable leaving him. in the house on his own. ## REALIZING THE EXTENT OF THE LIES **Shelly:** I felt uncomfortable with him at work, but I put it all down to trust issues. I’m damaged, I haven’t dealt with the trauma in my past, so I’m ruining my perfect relationship with my trust issues. Which actually everything I asked him, even at the points where I asked him, turned out to be true, and it was completely vindicated. So what has actually happened? So I was carrying this, I’ve got trust issues, I’m damaged for so long. I believed those people around me who were just lying. I released myself from that, and I woke up within myself and realized I don’t have trust issues. I’ve just been around loads of people lying to me, and I can feel it. **Anne:** Yeah, you have a superpower. **Shelly:** Yeah, suddenly that thing I’d been carrying for so many years has suddenly lifted. I’m not damaged, I’ve just been around people that have treated me really badly. **Anne:** Was that a relief to you in some ways? **Shelly:** I felt relief, because like I said, I thought I damaged my perfect relationship. So it was like a double edged sword. **Anne:** At the time, you were being manipulated to think that you had problems, that this was your fault, but now that you know the truth and look back. And you’re like, oh no, he was gaslighting me. He really was lying to me. Can you tell me more about why you didn’t want him at home by himself? Or why you were worried about him at work? **Shelly:** It was just a feeling. It was literally just a feeling. There was no concrete evidence at all. I didn’t have anything. He was very good at keeping that separate, completely separate. ## THE PAIN OF GASLIGHTING **Shelly:** I just had this nagging feeling, an uneasiness of him being at home alone, an uneasiness of him when he is at work. **Anne:** What an amazing gift… **Shelly:** Yeah, **Anne:** …to you. I’m so grateful that you were strong and brave, and nothing was wrong with you. Even if you had “trust issues”. Because, like, why trust people when they’re not trustworthy? **Shelly:** Exactly. Anne: But in this particular case, your warning system is going off, and now you’re more confident in it because you found out the truth. But to know that he was weaponizing that against you, that’s why it hurts so badly. **Shelly:** Yeah, and like being in a relationship where he would lecture me on trusting him and how important trust was within the relationship, knowing that he was lying to me. **Anne:** That is so devastating. That is absolutely, it’s so bad. Sorry, I don’t know why anyone can think this form of abuse is not severe. **Shelly:** No, I know. It’s abuse on every level. I described it as a spiritual crime to him. It feels like a spiritual crime against another soul. It goes so deep for me and everybody experiencing this. I don’t understand how anyone can literally look themselves in the mirror knowing everything they know about themselves. And just carry on like it’s fine. **Anne:** And I can see why that was the most traumatic, because you trusted him the most, and he lied to you on such an intimate level. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## CAN I TRUST MY HUSBAND AGAIN: HE WITHHELD INFORMATION **Shelly:** Yeah, I asked him, just plainly, often, whether he was using explicit material. And always he’d be like, No, I only have eyes for you. I only have eyes for you. It wasn’t like it just never came up. I asked him a lot because of these feelings, my instincts. So it was, there’s no, oh, I thought you’d be fine with it. It wasn’t that at all. He knew where I was with that. And he still chose to hide that from me. It seems pretty clear at this point that I couldn’t trust my husband again. **Anne:** Which is abusive on so many levels, especially on a intimate level, coercion. When women say, I feel like I was emotionally raped. Basically, and people are like, what, and we’re not kidding. That’s exactly what happened. Because we would not have maybe made those choices or done the things that we did. Had we had the information that they were purposefully withholding from us. **Shelly:** Exactly. And the coercion has only really crystallized for me quite recently. Because this has been going on for a year now. **Anne:** So it’s been a year since he told you. Shelly: The D-Days, yeah, I always say D-Days because there was so much that we took a long time for full disclosure. And it just got worse and worse, the things being disclosed. ## SEEKING THE TRUTH **Anne:** Tell me more about that. Was he disclosing them to you because of therapy or how did the other disclosures happen? **Shelly:** No, after the first disclosure, we tried to make it light. And smoked and was like, sometimes. I pulled away and was like, you said you never did that. Instantly my heart was broken. Then he started to lie and minimize, he said. It was only three times in our relationship that I’ve done that. The thing is, once I switched on to the fact that he was lying to me and had lied to me, I could see it, and I could literally see him snaking around in front of me, lying to me. It was my warning system, and not letting it go and saying things like you said this, and that doesn’t add up. And okay, tell me this then, so what is it? There’s more I could feel it, I could feel it in my body every time he was lying to me. And I could see it. So there were a lot of lies after the first admission. Who went through for about four months, maybe a bit more serious, like minimizing half truths. Outright lies with him shifting around and tripping himself up and saying something he hadn’t said before. Or saying opposite things, saying two different things, two different sides of one story. And I said to him, you’re not even allowing me to heal, because you’re not telling me the whole truth. So after four or five months of this. And I was on it, I was on fire. I was just calling it the BS knife, because I was so sharply cutting through all these lies, my husband couldn’t be trusted again. ## HE GIVES A FULL DISCLOSURE **Shelly:** It culminated in going away and staying in a hotel room. And he was like, okay, I’m gonna tell you everything. He literally listed everything from childhood, told me stuff like when I wasn’t around. About him looking at other women just gave me what I felt was a full story. And it was incredibly traumatic. **Anne:** Were you interested in that, or was this like a way of grooming you, or can you talk a little bit about that? **Shelly:** I wouldn’t leave it until I got the full story. I needed to know everything. I needed to know who I was with. And it felt like pulling the truth out of him. It was my instincts that were telling me, you’re still not telling me the truth. There’s more and more. We had many horrific bombs dropped in my lap, with more and more truth, it got worse and worse. **Anne:** So how are you feeling now? **Shelly:** Like I said, it’s been a year. I did have moments where I was like, I don’t even know if I can love you anymore after this level of lies. I don’t think I can trust my husband again. But because of the work he’s done, a lot of meditation. He had a light bulb moment when we listened to something, and it said the body doesn’t know the difference between what the mind is thinking. So, if you’re reliving your trauma all the time, he compartmentalized and kept this in a separate dark box. And then he was the good dad and he was a good partner. In all the other boxes, he was full of light and this wonderful man, but then he had this dark box where he kept all that stuff. ## WHAT IF I CAN NEVER TRUST MY HUSBAND AGAIN: PARTNER’S REALIZATION & EFFORTS **Shelly:** So he literally gave that energy to another person. When he’s supposed to be committed and loyal to me. My [husband was proving I couldn’t trust](https://www.btr.org/about/) him anymore. **Anne:** On that note, he’s “such a good dad.” It was a feeling that you had, that something wasn’t quite right. But I want to talk about the other types of abuse that you experienced for a minute, the [gaslighting and the emotional and psychological abuse](https://www.btr.org/how-do-abusers-gaslight/). Do you think that even though it wasn’t overt, because I guess he wasn’t screaming in your face, he wasn’t, overtly calling you names that would have been obvious to you. But do you think that might have been what you were picking up on? Even though you didn’t know that you were picking up on it because you couldn’t see it and couldn’t tell. But do you think that was what you were picking up on? **Shelly:** Yeah, I do. I reckon my instincts were warning me, and self protection was kicking in. **Anne:** So you and your partner were together in a committed relationship for how long when he disclosed his use? **Shelly:** Seven years. So it’d been going on for seven years. **Anne:** Why did he disclose it? That’s a question I always ask, because they could be repentant at this point where they’re like, oh my word, I can’t live like this anymore. I’ve got to come clean. I’ve got to change. That’s a possibility. There’s also a possibility where they want to hurt you. I’m not saying that’s your situation, and I’m not trying to convince you of that. ## WHY DISCLOSE NOW? **Anne:** In my case, when my ex-husband was in addiction recovery, and was doing so well. Then near the end, there was a sudden turn where he started telling me he was using. Before that, he was lying to me about it. When I look back, I’m like, I think he might have been having an emotional affair. There was something going on, and he wanted me to be the cause of the demise of our marriage. And so he was like, starting to be overtly aggressive and abusive. He would tell me he was using, because he knew that was a deal breaker for me. And so that’s one of the questions I want women to think about is why now, because that might help as we’re trying to heal or determine, what do I want to do? Is this safe for me? Is it not safe for me to ponder that question? If my husband lied to me the whole time, why is he telling me the truth now? **Shelly:** So I questioned him on that, and he said he felt it was getting to a [point where it was out of control](https://www.btr.org/how-can-we-protect-children-online/). He didn’t ever feel good about himself, because of what he was doing and living this double life. But he was scared to tell me the whole lot in one go. He didn’t have the strength to tell me everything in one go. I don’t believe he was trying to hurt me. It seemed like he was lightly slipping the truth in. And then he was like, now I’ve got all hell to deal with. So then he was trying to backtrack and minimize, and giving me non-truth and half truth. How could I ever trust him again after this? ## CAN I EVER TRUST MY HUSBAND AGAIN? I THINK HE WANTED TO CHANGE **Shelly:** So I don’t believe he was trying to hurt me with that. And I think that he, maybe subconsciously, wanted to change. I hope that’s the case. I definitely don’t believe he was using that to try and hurt me, because he’s not vindictive in that way, and he always wanted to look after me. He knew me in these past relationships, he was my friend, and he came along like this knight in shining armor. And just wanted to protect me. Then had this realization that he’d been exactly the same, and which he’s actually struggled with. We’ve spoken in great depth about the conditioning and objectification of humans. But obviously from this perspective, he was part of that, and he’s horrified with himself, and I believe that’s genuine. He was in groups of friends that were, it was just normal, it was just, this is what guys do, it’s just normal. That might be fine. If you’re in a relationship and you’re fine with that, then that’s fine. But this isn’t, and it wasn’t, and he chose that because he knew my stance on that. He knew he was lying to me, so this wasn’t normal and okay. And to consenting people and the coercion thing, realizing that I hadn’t been giving full consent. We’ve also spoken about that a lot, so he’s horrified with himself. Which I think is good. But, does that change whether or not I can trust him again? **Anne:** Yeah, that is good. ## CHALLENGES IN COUNSELING **Anne:** I wondered about therapy. In my opinion, the likelihood of it worsening is too risky. **Shelly:** I had the exact same feeling, actually. I wasn’t sure that any form of counseling would be helpful. Because of the tendency in society to normalize this stuff, and as long as you’re not physically cheating with someone else, then what’s the problem? **Anne:** You’re like, oh, the lying. But yeah. **Shelly:** Yeah, I was very apprehensive about any form of counseling. We went to the doctors, he wanted me to come with him. We sat with him. A female doctor, and he started talking and breaking down. He said he didn’t understand how he could do this to me. And struggled with his mental health and self perception. He was advised to take counseling. And they offered him a woman counselor on a screen, video calling, and I was like, I’m not comfortable with that. I’m not comfortable with that at all. We’re like, we’re talking about, you’re looking at women on the screen. I’m not comfortable with you having counseling with a woman on a screen. That’s like in this space, I don’t feel safe with that. So he requested a man, and luckily he did end up with a really. good counselor who he was able to express where he was with in a safe place without it being normalized. I felt I was on my way to trusting him again. And the lady doctor, when we went together, she said, do you want me to point you in the direction of addiction services? And he was like, I don’t actually think I have an addiction. It’s more of a choice that I decided to stop, where he didn’t go down that route. ## VALIDATION & HEALING **Shelly:** We both had [counseling separately and thought about couples](https://www.btr.org/best-marriage-counseling-near-me-for-couples/) therapy. But again, my instincts were not fully on that either. So we haven’t, we’ve done a lot of work together just between us, in meditations, and in just hearing each other. A lot of it’s been me, speaking my heart and my pain. Sometimes, he’s struggled to deal with the anger, because he’s got a tendency to defend himself. So he’s working through that now. But his determination to make it right has given me hope and stuck me here. Actually, the full disclosure of everything he did, he could have easily not told me, is that it’s been the truth that’s kept us together. **Anne:** Can you talk about your journey to find [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org "Betrayal Trauma Recovery") and want to share your story? **Shelly:** I was talking to him and I said to him, there’s so much help for you, that it literally feels like there’s no help for me. It was only recently that I’d found out that this sort of trauma has a name. And then I was starting to look into [betrayal trauma](https://www.btr.org), and then connecting all the dots from the rest of my life previously. It was actually him that was looking for ways to help me, and he discovered your podcast. And the first one he found was women saying, “This is the best way to [heal from betrayal](https://www.btr.org/free-betrayal-trauma-meditation/) trauma.” And he was like, I want you to listen to this. And that was how I found you. I wanted to share my story, because I think that is another step forward in healing in our journey. Putting this out because I’ve kept it very close to my heart and it’s been hard. ## WHAT IF I CAN NEVER TRUST MY HUSBAND AGAIN: FINDING SUPPORT & COMMUNITY **Anne:** As part of your journey to healing, to find a community with women who have been through this? Who all worry about if they can [trust their husband](https://www.btr.org/about/) again. **Shelly:** And feeling so validated in a world that normalizes this stuff and it’s everywhere. Feeling so validated for feeling so strongly about this and feeling so heartbroken about this. That validation has given me so much. There are other women wondering if they can [trust their husbands](https://www.btr.org/about/). **Anne:** Let’s talk about that validation for a minute. Can you talk about the difference in knowing that women are horrified and traumatized? And they’re experiencing emotional and psychological abuse on these intense levels. And that almost all society doesn’t recognize this type of trauma. What’s your feeling now that you realize you’ve been completely normal and that there are so many other women who feel the way you do? **Shelly:** I feel like there’s an army of women out there that I’m part of. Before, I felt isolated and we would talk to friends. It would be like, I didn’t speak about this, about my personal experience with friends, but just in conversation. Oh yeah, as long as they’re not cheating and come back to you at the end of the night. It’s the validation that this actually affects people much more than is spoken about. Because people don’t talk about it. It’s giving it a voice. **Anne:** And that’s why I do this podcast to give women like you the opportunity to share your story, share how you feel, share how this affected you. ## BELIEF IT’S POSSIBLE TO TRUST MY HUSBAND AGAIN **Shelly:** Yeah, that is a powerful thing. That’s a powerful thing, because before I knew of my emotions, I felt like I was on my own in that. I wasn’t, there are many others who also wonder what if they can trust him again. **Anne:** I am so grateful that you’re a member of our community and supporting me in my healing process. I am honored and have been honored through the years to hear all these stories. Women who share these stories are in a vulnerable place, and it’s such an honor to like, sit with you. I know I was in the same spot. Maybe a different spot, because my husband’s character, was deceptive. I’ve been thinking about that a lot lately, about how I believe people can change. And, that makes this job hard, right? Because how do we know if someone is or isn’t when they’ve lied to you all these years, right? How can you tell if you can trust him? So that place where you are right now in your healing process is a vulnerable spot, but it is okay to be there. And there’s no way to get out of it other than to go through it, because you want to make the right decision for you and your family. And we get that. **Shelly:** Yeah, and you have to feel every layer of grief to release yourself from it. And it’s a hard thing to face, because it’s not anything that anyone would choose to feel. But that, the only way out is to go in, and that’s the process I’m in. And it feels like I’ve been doing it forever now. ## REFLECTIONS ON CHANGE & TRUST **Anne:** Hopefully not forever, right? It’s been so interesting. My process, I feel so good now. But there were, I don’t know, 14 years where I felt like this is going to be forever. So I totally understand. I wondered if I could trust him again, and found out I couldn’t. Shelley, if you’re willing to come back and share how you’re doing in six months to a year. I would love to have you come back on and share what’s going on, what you’ve learned through the process. So if you’re willing to do that, I would love to talk to you again. **Shelly:** Yeah, definitely up for that, yeah. **Anne:** Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing your story, and keep in touch. **Shelly:** Yeah, I will do, thank you. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [7 Emotional Safety Examples: How to Establlish Emotional Safety in Marriage](https://www.btr.org/emotional-safety-examples/) **Published:** August 25, 2026 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Do you feel anxious or unsafe in your marriage but can’t explain why? These 7 emotional safety examples can help you find clarity. **Content:** Do you feel anxious, confused, or unsafe in your marriage, but you can’t quite explain why? These 7 emotional safety examples can help you find clarity when your husband’s words sound loving, but his actions leave you feeling betrayed. Before we get to the list, to see if he’s using any one of the 19 types of emotional abuse tactics, take our [free emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ## 7 EMOTIONAL SAFETY EXAMPLES In this article you’ll see the following emotional safety examples: - [7 Practical examples of emotional safety issues.](#emotional-safety-examples) - [Identifying his behaviors that threaten your emotionally safety.](#identifying-his-threatening-behaviors) - [Realizing that your reactions to his emotional abuse are “normal.”](#your-reaction-to-abuse-is-normal) - [What getting the right information means for your emotional safety.](#what-getting-the-right-information-means) - [Honoring your needs and boundaries is essential as you decide next steps](#honoring-your-needs-is-essential). ### 1. IF HIS ACTIONS DON’T MATCH HIS WORDS, TRUST WHAT YOU SEE **How it Sounds:** *“I love you and I’d never do anything to hurt you or our family.”* His promises could sound comforting, but his patterns are evidence that shows who he really is. If you find yourself assessing his mood or, rehearsing conversations afterwards to figure out what went wrong. Or realize the same issues never get resolved no matter how carefully you explain them, start trusting what you can see and feel. Emotional safety begins with trusting your instincts. ### 2. IF HE USES MONEY OR OTHER RESOURCES TO CONTROL YOU, UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT MEANS **How it Sounds:** *“I’m just trying to take care of you. You don’t need to worry about the money.”* It may feel caring or protective for your husband to take care of the finances, but if he is secretive about his purchases, monitors every purchase you make, withholds money, interferes with your ability to work, or makes you feel dependent on him for basic needs, that is not protection. It is control. Emotional safety examples, means you have access to money, transportation, information, food, medical care, and communication without having to beg, panic, or wait for him to decide whether you deserve them. ### 3. IF HE USES STRESS, SADNESS, OR HELPLESSNESS TO EXPLOIT YOU, PROTECT YOUR ENERGY **How it Sounds:** “*I’m so overwhelmed lately. I need your help, so I can focus on recovery*.” If your husband tries to pressure you into feeling responsible for his recovery by using stress at work or his overwhelming shame as an excuse to get you to schedule his appointments or keep track of his progress, it’s important that you protect your energy. Emotional safety means he considers you as a person with needs and a life of your own, not just someone who’s there to “help him” manage his. ### 4. IF HE TWISTS THE TRUTH AND BLAMES YOUR “POOR” COMMUNICATION, BE STRATEGIC: EMOTIONAL SAFETY EXAMPLES **How it Sounds:** *“You never told me you had a problem with my behavior.”* One of the ways a manipulative husband keeps his wife from discovering the whole truth about his addictions or affairs, is to keep her stuck in a cycle of confusion over communication. You might have already spent years crying and trying to explain how his choices are hurting you, only to have him say that he “didn’t understand because you didn’t explain it clearly” or because “he didn’t like being accused.” Emotional safety examples are not established by trying to perfectly explain why something hurts you. It’s recognizing that someone who benefits from deception has a strong incentive to pretend he never understood your concerns in the first place. ### 5. IF HE BLAMES YOU FOR HIS BETRAYALS, REMEMBER BLAME IS A DEFLECTION **How it Sounds:** *“I wouldn’t have done this if you were more affectionate, less critical, or easier to live with.”* If your husband blames you for his use of inappropriate material, cheating, emotional affairs, lies, or other betrayals, he is shifting responsibility for choices that were always his to make. Emotional safety examples begin with releasing yourself from any responsibility for the choices he has made. ### 6. IF HE SUGGESTS COUPLE THERAPY, SEEK EMOTIONAL SAFETY FIRST **How it Sounds:** *“Let’s go to couples therapy so we can both work on our issues.”* If your husband lies or withholds information that directly affects your reality, safety, health, finances, sexuality, or ability to make informed decisions, he uses coercive control. This is not a marriage issue. Traditional couples therapy is not designed to address ongoing deception and manipulation, especially when one person benefits from keeping the other and the therapist confused. Determining what you need for emotional safety, comes before focusing on repairing the relationship. ### 7. EMOTIONAL SAFETY EXAMPLES: IF HE LIES ABOUT YOU TO OTHERS, PROTECT YOUR PEACE **How it Sounds:** *“She’s unstable. She’s angry. She needs help. I’m really worried about her.”* If your husband feels he is losing control, he may try to control the narrative. He might tell your “friends” that he’s worried about your mental health or tell your pastor that you’re bitter and unforgiving, or the counselor that you’re an angry person. He may even plant seeds of doubt about your character with your children, and try to pin the “marriage issues” on your reactions to his manipulations. It’s normal to feel like you have to defend yourself, but you do not owe unsafe people any explanation. Emotional safety examples include choosing grounded support, protecting your peace, and letting your consistent actions speak over time. Talk to women who can support you and validate you. We’d love to see you in a [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY.](/group/) ## TRANSCRIPT: EMOTIONAL SAFETY EXAMPLES **Anne:** Okay, here’s my interview with Roxanna. I have a woman I actually knew in person from years ago when I went to 12-Step. She wrote a book called, *[Forgotten In The Battle of Sexual Addiction, the Journey of a Spouse](https://amzn.to/4vxYgzP).* I’m honored to catch up, Roxanna. Let’s just start wherever you would like to start. **Roxanna:** Thank you Anne. I am excited to be here. When I met my husband and started building a family when we married, there were certain behaviors that he had that I thought were normal and that I needed to work around. I was in a 12-Step meeting one day when I suddenly remembered something from my childhood. My sister and I came home from school animated and excited. But when we hit the back door, we lowered our voices, and we immediately began assessing our situation. Was Dad home? Had he gone to the bar? Had he gone to his second job? Was Mom upstairs crying? Because our emotional safety examples revolved around an accurate assessment of his mood. And I realized I was doing the same thing. That I was to a place in the relationship where when I was around him, I assessed and responded to keep myself safe. **Anne:** Did you know that you were experiencing abuse? **Roxanna:** At that point, no, because it wasn’t until 24 years into the marriage and I refer to it as the bomb because it exploded my existence. It totally fractured everything that I had built my life around. ## THE TRUTH THAT EXPLODED MY EXISTENCE **Roxanna:** Now he came forward with a very sterile confession, but it was incomplete. About a week later, the spirit said, check his wallet. And I found motel receipts. I had a very flexible job, and the next morning, I checked our bank records. What I found sickened me: phone stuff, prostitution, strip clubs, inappropriate viewing. I mean, it was a bomb. Because of his vast flips in personality, I went from thinking he was bipolar to wondering who he was. Because it was clear to me that so much of my reality wasn’t as I knew it to be. And I asked him to meet me at a park, and I said, I don’t know what you’re doing or who you are, but if you don’t get help, I’m going to file for divorce today. He checked himself into a rehab center. And I got really sick, and I mean like eight months of illness, 12 times of being hospitalized, and he couldn’t continue the facade. **Anne:** Also, he can’t get you to do what he wants at this point, because you’re too sick to do it. You’re too sick to be exploited in the way he was exploiting you before. You’re too sick to be manipulated. I’m so, so sorry. Because that’s when you need the person to be there for you. **Roxanna:** Yeah. **Anne:** They think that you’re created for them, but they don’t like giving back. **Roxanna:** Right, they objectify everyone around them. **Anne:** So the rehab center he checked into was for drugs and alcohol. **Roxanna:** Yes, but at the end the counselor said, “I think your husband is an addict.” And I countered with, ” What in the world is that?” ## I LEARNED TO MEET MY OWN NEEDS **Anne:** And no one identified any emotional, psychological, financial or [spiritual abuse](/signs-of-spiritual-abuse/), at that time, not the therapist or anything? No one said anything about abuse? There were no emotional safety examples for me to follow. **Roxanna:** That therapist blamed me. And I looked at it as a two-way street. I was 46 when this happened, and gradually, I gave space, I gave Jack first a year. I didn’t do that verbally, but I did that in my heart and mind. Part of my learning process was to learn to hold boundaries with someone I didn’t think I could hold boundaries with. As I held boundaries and learned to meet my own needs. I learned to make decisions based on what I saw and what my truth was, not what he was telling me. It freed him to decide what he wanted. **Anne:** Well, he was always free to do what he wanted the whole time. **Roxanna:** But some of those boundaries allowed me to step out of the position of being blamed. **Anne:** He never had to blame you. **Roxanna:** Right, but he did. **Anne:** Yeah, the language “allowed him”, I’m like no. He was always free to choose. **Roxanna:** I look at myself and think I made a million mistakes, but were they mistakes? Probably not. One of the experiences I learned from a Saturday. I wanted it to be a wonderful day, and Jack just kept sulking on the couch. I remember coming over and visiting with him and saying, “What’s up?” and I can’t remember the words he used. But essentially, I’m mad because you are supposed to make me happy, and I’m not happy. and I just kept trying to make life pleasant. I would twist myself and my schedule into a pretzel. ## EMOTIONAL SAFETY EXAMPLES: WE WANT TO PROTECT OUR FAMILIES **Anne:** It’s a total normal reaction. We all value our dignity. We’re all going to stand up for ourselves. We’re all going to try and improve the situation. Women are incredible. They’re smart, they’re capable. And when something’s not quite right, of course we wanna fix it, anybody would. Healthy people want to help the people they love, they wanna care. Women who have never been abused act the same way. They’re like, “Are you okay? What’s wrong? How can I help you?” Because they’re a good person. It’s just that manipulators use that against you, regardless of your background. And that’s the hard part for women to wrap their heads around, is that they’ve never done anything wrong. I’ve done over 200 long form interviews that are like an hour or longer, and they’re all different. Women come from really healthy backgrounds, women come from unhealthy ones, and we’re all completely different. But we all wanna help out. We all wanna protect our families. Of course, none of us are perfect. We’re just trying to navigate someone who’s lying to us and manipulating us. They’re actually doing the right things. He’s just using all the right things against them. **Roxanna:** That is so true, Anne. I love your stance on it. We are amazing. You’re responding reasonably to an unreasonable situation. You’re learning to be true to yourself. You don’t have to believe what other people tell you. Somewhere in your gut and somewhere with God, you can figure out in those moments, “That’s not my job.” I could leave. ## I TRIED MARRIAGE AGAIN AND HE LIED TO ME, TOO **Roxanna:** Jack had a lot of medical issues. One night we were in the ER, it was very late, he was overtly flirting, and it was horrible. And I left. That was the good part. But then the old messages started playing in my head. A good wife wouldn’t leave her husband in the ER, wouldn’t do this. A good wife wouldn’t do that. Instead of trying to fight those untrue messages, I went back. At this point, I didn’t have emotional safety examples to help me understand what was happening. That was a very unpleasant night. That took me months to be able to talk about. But I learned from it. I learned that I could never reenter the room or the situation that was hurtful. That learning resulted in a later episode in an ICU room, and I left. After Jack passed away, I tried marriage again, and despite all that I had learned, his facade fooled me. **Anne:** Yeah, he lied to you on purpose. He didn’t fool you, he lied. **Roxanna:** Yeah. **Anne:** How did you feel when you met him? I wanna bring this up, because you’re not doing anything wrong. You’re very healthy at this point. You’ve really focused on making sure that you’re making good choices, which you’ve been doing all along. I recently did an episode about how Jesus was betrayed. He was perfect. And Judas still lied. In that episode, I talk about how Judas betrayed him long before the last supper. When he is like, whoever takes the bread will betray him because Judas had gone out and arranged it prior to this. ## I HAD THE RIGHT TO JUDGE HIS BEHAVIOR **Anne:** So you could have been absolutely perfect, and he would’ve lied to you, and still you wouldn’t have known. So that’s why I’m like, tell me about what you’re feeling in real time. Like you meet him, and he seems probably really great, because I’m guessing you don’t wanna go through what you’ve just been through. **Roxanna:** Well, the interesting part is I knew that he had struggled with alcohol. But he told me he was clean. Because of my background, we talked extensively about what he wanted in his life. What I learned is that I had the right to judge people on what they had done. **Anne:** Right. **Roxanna:** Not what they said. **Anne:** Well, how old is this guy? **Roxanna:** He was 56. **Anne:** So if he wanted what he said he wanted, he would be that person already. **Roxanna:** I learned that. **Anne:** So he is just lying. My ex, I talked to him extensively about exploitative materials use. ‘Cause I did not wanna marry a user. He told me to my face, “I don’t use it.” And he still did. We choose our character one choice at a time. So at 56 with this guy. If he wanted the things he was lying to you about, he would’ve been that person. But he wasn’t that person. But he knew you wanted that. You didn’t have emotional safety examples. ## LYING IS CONTROL: EMOTIONAL SAFETY EXAMPLES **Roxanna:** Absolutely, a healthy marriage cannot be built by one person. It takes the foundation of honesty. Marriage therapy often does not work, because a lot of times therapists don’t even see the lie. **Anne:** Right, or they don’t view lies as domestic abuse. And couple therapy or any type of couple work is never, ever ethically indicated if there’s abuse. So if they’re like, “Oh yeah, we’ll help him with his lying.” I’m like, well, that is abuse. So that should never happen. But they don’t view it as [emotional manipulation](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGcdbqnHSbY) and psychological abuse a lot of the time, which I disagree with. The definitions from mainstream domestic abuse educators would include lying as domestic abuse. So they just haven’t been trained in abuse. There’s this huge problem with this gap between what the behaviors actually are and how they’re literally defined, how they’re viewing them, which is a problem that I’m always combating. **Roxanna:** Yes, I bet you are, because in my mind, lying comes from not seeing the other person as a real person with wants and needs of their own. **Anne:** Well, and at the heart of abuse, because lying is control. You’re controlling that person through withholding certain information from them that they have a right to know. So it’s a serious coercive control issue. It’s not like I was ashamed or something. It doesn’t matter if you were ashamed or not. It meets the legal definition of coercive control. ## I WANTED HUMAN CONNECTION, NOT A “TRANSACTIONSHIP” **Roxanna:** Right, and marriages cannot last in a healthy way with deceit. And that’s one thing that this process of growth learning emotional safety examples has helped me identify, is what I want. **Anne:** Yeah. **Roxanna:** I wanted human connection. And when you are lying or when you see the other person as just a means to your end, there is no human connection. I think it was Teddy Roosevelt who said the man in the arena who comes out and he’s bloody from trying, he doesn’t have any armor on. He doesn’t have any deceit in him. He comes out and wants to try honestly. And what is required, and what these men typically do not understand. Is that we’re asking for the human connection. We ask others to see us as another human being, and they want to treat us as something that meets their needs. **Anne:** Yeah, that’s essentially the definition of abuse, is that you view the other person as someone who you exploit for your own gain. But they’re not an equal to you. I remember something you said way, way back in the day. This was when you were still married to Jack. You said to him, I’m someone who buys the groceries, takes care of the kids, and gives him it, but that’s about it. I’m not a person to him. And that stuck with me. ‘Cause many views I have now evolved, obviously over the years, because I’ve talked to so many women and become so educated about[ abuse and the long term affects](/what-are-the-long-term-effects-of-emotional-abuse-in-marriage/). I didn’t have the two things put together. I thought I knew about abuse, but I really didn’t understand it back then. And that is the heart of it. ## WHAT HIS PATTERNS OF BEHAVIOR MEAN **Anne:** Whether he has an addiction and what he’s doing about that, it’s always abuse to us as the victim of that. With the most recent husband, how did you find out? The difference between what he said and what he did is that what you started to observe? Or did you have a D-Day with the new husband? **Roxanna:** That’s a really good question. They were in little snippets. So about a month after we married, the behaviors began. The objectifying, the using, the shutting me out and off started almost immediately. We took a vacation with my family. In very separateness from associating with my family, he started penalizing me for asking questions. And that’s when I knew I was in real trouble. The drinking and substance abuse started later. So, from there. I went back to getting support. He remained angry. He was always defensive. So I filed for divorce, it was a heartbreak. They always are. You’re always losing hopes and dreams, and you have to grieve it. At the same time, it had begun to affect my health. And I knew it would destroy me if I didn’t keep myself in a safe place. **Anne:** Yeah, here at BTR, everything’s founded on the strategies in the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](/livingfree/). And it’s the same thing you’re talking about. If she wants safety, and help with emotional safety examples, She’s going to need to learn some skills. But there’s nothing wrong with her character. ## THERE’S NOTHING WRONG WITH YOU, YOU JUST DIDN’T HAVE THE RIGHT INFORMATION **Anne:** If you put our program next to 12-Step. There are no character defects. You’ve always been trying to get help. You’ve always been trying to do the right thing. But you just didn’t have the right information. You didn’t realize what you were dealing with. Once you realize what’s happening, he’s lied to you and he’s manipulative. You can create some space, either just in your mind or physical space, whatever kind of space you need to observe. And that’s what you’ve been talking about. Just observe, see if their actions match their words. As you observe, some of them might start making good choices, observing whether that’s grooming, like what you experienced with your second marriage. ‘Cause he was grooming you and lying to you from the beginning. So it wasn’t like he switched, he was the same person. He just switched tactics. He went from grooming to being mean to you. You know, I’m being angry. They’re both two sides of the control coin of trying to manipulate you to do what he wanted. Then over time, if he escalates, you can increase your boundaries. You learn by seeing practical emotional safety examples. Or you can pull back on your boundaries a little bit and be like, okay, he’s safe. So that process of trying to figure out am I safe? Am I not safe? This feels safe. He feels safe, but then realizing, oh, that’s what he does when he grooms me. Okay, nevermind. That wasn’t actual safety, because there’s no way to circumvent the process of figuring them out, because there’s no human way on the face of the earth to be like a lie detector. **Roxanna:** Right. ## RELEARNING WHAT TO DO **Anne:** So the only way to determine whether they’re telling the truth is to observe over time. There’s no way to shortcut that. **Roxanna:** A lot of my journey is because I lived in some sort of dysfunctional relationship for the better part of 46 years, before I started recognizing what I had lived in. And so I wasn’t ever the problem. You say that so beautifully, and that’s so freeing. I was doing the dance of what did I do wrong, because that was what I was taught. Through years and years of this. A counselor stopped me and said, “You could be the biggest bitch in the world, and Jack would still be responsible for keeping his vows.” That was a turning point for me. The process that you do in your groups. I learned in various groups and situations. That living in these dysfunctional ways and relationships, I had acquired coping skills that were no longer serving me. They weren’t helping me be peaceful and happy in my own life. So my journey is about relearning what I got to do in my life. In fact, I have a chapter in the book called The Things That Get to Change, and I see that as a happy process. Because no matter what they’re doing over there in their life. You get to bring positive behaviors and positive responses into your life, and you get to start showing how you wanna be and how you are. The beautiful person you are, you get to start showing up like that. I had become almost a little mouse. I was afraid of asserting too much or being strong or meeting my own needs. **Anne:** Yeah. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## EMOTIONAL SAFETY EXAMPLES: BECOMING STRONG AND BRAVE **Roxanna:** I learned to meet my own needs. To say my truth and not cower when someone else responded with what I knew was a lie. I didn’t have to convince them that theirs was a lie. **Anne:** Yeah, I love that. I liken it to a plane crash. Think about the movie *Castaway*, when he’s first on the island and struggling, and then it fast forwards and he is standing on that rock super strong, and he can catch the fish and do all the stuff. You’re not the pilot, you’re just on the plane. You didn’t do anything wrong. Then you wanna survive. You’re gonna try and make a fire a bunch of times and fail. But none of that is you doing anything wrong. Then you’re gonna learn these amazing skills. Women who learn how to protect themselves and realize that that’s the journey they were always on, right? They were always doing the right thing, even if they couldn’t catch the fish in the beginning. Then there’s this montage of, and now Roxanna is here and she is strong, she’s brave, and she’s always been strong and brave because she faced all these things head on, and this is who she is now. Who is this even stronger braver woman who came out of it? So it’s really cool. I love that part of it, that women share over and over again, that the process of realizing someone was harming them and learning how to protect themselves. Instead of saying, would a good wife do this? Asking what would a brave woman do? **Roxanna:** Right. I learned to ask myself, what’s the next right decision? ## EMOTIONAL SAFETY EXAMPLES: SEEING THE TRUTH **Roxanna:** And that’s something that I use to this day with relationships with my children, with my grandchildren. You are absolutely right. This process enriches our lives. I tell people that I believe God is making an army of strong women who know what the truth is. Who know how to live happy lives, and who can teach our children what the truth is. And to [protect a child from inappropriate media](/what-to-do-when-your-child-watches-inappropriate-things/). **Anne:** Yeah. **Roxanna:** Our culture desperately needs that. It really is. **Anne:** Yeah, I feel the same way. See the truth, and then protect themselves and others from the lies through their actions. Communication is never the solution to domestic abuse. When someone’s lying, communication isn’t the solution, because that’s how they lie. Knowing how to navigate a situation where words, to the person who’s hurting you, mean nothing. And knowing how to figure out what’s going on. It’s hard for everybody. **Roxanna:** It is, and I think that’s what I learned in this last marriage. We have to make judgments, keep ourselves safe. And judgments are not the same necessarily as condemning. But I get to make judgments based on what a person has done. **Anne:** Yes **Roxanna:** Not on what they say they’re going to do. It’s freeing to learn. **Anne:** You are so incredible. The process of writing, ‘because I’ve been writing my own book, it’s not just an end result, like writing in and of itself is the process of learning. That’s so exciting that you took the time to do that. ‘Cause that is a huge accomplishment. So way to go. ## BUYING A MOTORCYCLE **Roxanna:** It was a labor of love. Jack is deceased and I wanted to say this has happened to me and I’ve grown from it and I understand it. And I have overcome the terrible lies it said to me about myself. **Anne:** From knowing you in person way back in the day, I appreciated you so much. What you were going through was very heavy, but there was this super fun, awesome person who was trying to claw her way out of the darkness. You knew that life didn’t have to be this miserable, and you wanted to create that life that you wanted, and that was really impactful to me at the time. And I thank you. **Roxanna:** During that process is when I, bought my motorcycle, Anne. And I would suggest a passionate hobby like that to any woman going through this. I still love to ride. I wanna say I felt the same about you. There was a connection, and it is so fun to reconnect after all these years and look at all you’ve done. **Anne:** That’s the crazy part. When you knew me, and maybe for our listeners who have listened, if you wouldn’t mind sharing. You knew me before I was podcasting, when I was in 12-Step and in absolute shock about what had happened. **Roxanna:** What I remember is that I was drawn to you because your personality and your demeanor were still dynamic. You were full of life, but you had so many questions and concerns about what you were learning, the road ahead of you, and what you could feel as deceit in your own situation. What I see now is that you remain true to acknowledging what you felt and moved forward. ## ON A JOURNEY TO BUILD WHAT I NEEDED **Roxanna:** You got those questions answered. And to me, that is the impetus of change and recovery. Because I remember looking at a young woman one time that came through the doors, and she was like, “I’m fine.” And six months later, she said, “I’m angry”. I remember saying to her. Good, now we can get somewhere. **Anne:** Yeah. **Roxanna:** And so I just look at you as you came into those meetings, aware that you were on a journey. **Anne:** Yeah. **Roxanna:** And you were searching. That is a beautiful place to start. **Anne:** Yeah. **Roxanna:** What is a really tough journey. **Anne:** We do things in a specific way here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, because of what I went through and all the obstacles I faced along the way. And all the stuff that people said did not sit right with me over the years. So I built BTR, the ideal thing I needed. This is what it would’ve been. But I wanna say it doesn’t matter what someone uses, I mean uses. I’m using that word specifically on purpose. Whatever a woman uses to realize how amazing she is. That she’s always been trying to do the right thing. That she’s always been working hard and capable, and that there’s nothing inherently wrong with her. She’s just fine. If the thing she’s doing is getting her where she wants to go, then great. ## WE BECOME A DIFFERENT PERSON: EMOTIONAL SAFETY EXAMPLES **Anne:** Because different things speak to different people, and it’s important to acknowledge there’s been some of the [best books](https://www.btr.org/books-about-emotional-abuse/) that I’ve read that I now look back and think. I don’t agree with that, but it was super helpful for me in the moment. **Roxanna:** At that point. **Anne:** And it helped me along my journey. **Roxanna:** Right, because we become a different person almost incrementally. I love that you’re saying this, because you’re basically giving you the milestones of my path, so you can pull apart the pieces that might help you on yours. **Anne:** Yeah, and many women who come here are like, wow, this is what I needed. Because I’m so careful about, we’re not gonna say this thing that was said or this thing. But at the same time, they make it here, and they’ve all used different things along the way. Or when they come here, maybe it doesn’t work for them, and maybe something else is gonna work. Maybe hearing emotional safety examples from others. So whatever works. Because like you said, all I care about is that we become collectively an army of really healthy women. Who can through our [boundaries in marriage](/what-does-the-bible-say-about-boundaries-in-marriage/) and our actions, literally stop abuse. Not that the abusers are stopping. They could be doing it all they want, but it cannot reach us because we are so strong and so united. **Roxanna:** And we have detached ourselves from places that they can hurt us. ## SEPARATING FROM PLACES THEY CAN HURT US **Anne:** Exactly, we’ve created space, mentally, physically, whatever it is. Where they are trying to hurt us, but they cannot. Healthy people, living healthy lives. **Roxanna:** Yeah, that’s beautiful because we’ve all got to learn to separate ourselves from that. **Anne:** Well, Roxanna, thank you so much for coming on to share your story. It’s so great catching up with you again. **Roxanna:** Anne, thank you so much for this opportunity. It was beautiful to reconnect, what a privilege. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Women Say THESE Are The Best Betrayal Trauma Resources](https://www.btr.org/betrayal-trauma-resources/) **Published:** October 22, 2024 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** You deserve the BEST betrayal trauma resources on your journey to emotional safety. **Content:** You deserve the *best* betrayal trauma resources as you navigate the deeply personal journey toward emotional safety. ## What is Betrayal Trauma? Betrayal trauma in marriage occurs when your husband violates your trust. But here’s the thing: Some resources for navigating what to do about betrayal trauma can be more traumatizing than helpful. ## In This Article, We Cover These Best Betrayal Trauma Resources - [Accessible online betrayal trauma support groups](#groups) - [Helpful betrayal trauma podcasts](/podcast/) - [Workshops to explain betrayal trauma](/clarity/) - [The best betrayal trauma meditations](#meditation) - [Good books about betrayal trauma](#books) - Resources if you’re experiencing [betrayal trauma while pregnant](#pregnant) - [Herbal Medicine for Betrayal Trauma](#herbal) ![Best Betrayal Trauma Resources](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Best-Betrayal-Trauma-Resources-1.webp "Best Betrayal Trauma Resources")## Transcript: The Best Betrayal Trauma Resources For Women **Anne:** My friend Lindsay and I were hanging out in my basement and talking about why I started Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I wanted all the educational material: the podcast, the website, and the transcribed articles to be free. And I wanted women to get our professional betrayal trauma resources from anywhere. And they needed to be accessible within hours of an abuse episode. You could either get into an individual session or a group session that you never had to call your therapist and get the sad news that they couldn’t see you for two weeks or that you had to be on some wait list. I just wanted to make sure that women had a safe place to go for [the best support for betrayal trauma](/best-support-for-betrayal-trauma/ "the best support for betryal trauma"). When I first started Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I thought BTR would be to shorten the time span between trying to get help while in the abuse cycle. It was basically to shorten the time span to find out about their pornography, and immediately notice abuse. So women could figure out the difference between[ emotional abuse and normal conflict.](/emotional-abuse-vs-normal-conflict/ " emotional abuse and normal conflict.") And immediately you can set boundaries, with their emotionally abusive husbands, right? That was like, okay, I’m gonna like make sure that no woman has to go through 10, 20 years of this again. ![Best Betrayal Trauma Resources](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Best-Betrayal-Trauma-Resources.webp "Best Betrayal Trauma Resources")Well, what I have found is that most women have to go through that stage. And so for women who are like, oh, I’m so stupid. Why didn’t I see it before? Why didn’t I do that? Almost like you had to go through that. No woman goes straight from, I found explicit material on his phone to the hardcore boundary. Usually, I mean, maybe if you’re the miracle out there, email me and we will have you on the podcast. ## The Importance Of Education That would be awesome, then I realized, no, this podcast is to educate women. We’ll just speak our truth and wherever they are is okay. **Lindsay:** Yeah, take you where you are. **Anne:** Yeah, and we’ll grow together from whatever stage we’re in. And hopefully in the process, number one is safety, and number two is that post traumatic growth. That people talk about a lot. Being able to grow. And I feel like I’m finally getting to that stage. I mean, I’ve changed a lot and grown a lot, but I also now, I’m like, oh my word, I’m wearing makeup! There are so many things now that I’m working toward, and it’s so exciting. So many women come on the podcast and share their [emotional abuse survivor stories,](https://www.btr.org/support-groups-for-survivors-of-emotional-abuse/ "emotional abuse survivor stories,") and it’s so inspiring. Now, you’re at a really, really tough, messy stage. **Lindsay:** Yes. ![Resources for Betrayal for Women](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Resources-For-Betrayal-For-Women.webp "Resources for Betrayal for Women")**Anne:** Right now, you are separating as a boundary for repeated lies and infidelity. You don’t know what the outcome of your boundary setting will be. **Lindsay:** Absolutely. **Anne:** Right, it’s I believe, your best chance for a happy future, and I also believe it’s your husband’s best chance to get healthy. But how are you feeling now in the context of your own personal growth? ## We’ve All Been There **Lindsay:** One thing that was truly powerful was just remembering. Not that I didn’t know this before, but remembering that this is painful and will be painful. If I am stabbed by a knife, I can’t control whether that hurts. It’s going to hurt. And so letting myself feel those emotions, in a real way. That’s awful. It’s awful to sit there and bawl and cry and have a pile of Kleenexes. **Anne:** We’ve all been there. It’s the worst. You feel like all the liquid in your entire body has come out. **Lindsay:** Yes. ![Resources for Betrayal Trauma](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Resources-For-Betrayal-Trauma.webp "Resources for Betrayal Trauma")**Anne:** It’s awful. And you need the best betrayal trauma resources. A lot women try all sorts of stuff like [herbal medicine for betrayal trauma.](https://www.btr.org/betrayal-trauma-resources/ "erbal medicine for betrayal trauma.") ## Embracing Pain & Healing **Lindsay:** It’s awful. And none of it will be fun, and it’s not going to be easy. And I’m going to make mistakes. I mean, yes, I’m holding a boundary, but oh my word, I have no clue if this is the right thing, the right answer. And that’s okay. I don’t have to be perfect at this. And it’s okay for me to be messy, raw, and in pain, and that has been one thing. Your [emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/) helped me a ton. **Anne:** For me, it’s been years of pain and unresolved things that I can’t fix. And they’re still here. I still can’t fix them. There’s one woman I talked to on the phone, and her situation was bleak. She had no support. Nobody understood what she was going through. She actually lived with her in laws. And they didn’t understand. So everything was bad. I just prayed with her on the phone. Because I was like, you can get a coach, but still, your situation is so bad that you need help from God. And she believed in God, so that wasn’t a stretch for her. So we said a prayer, and she emailed me a little later and said, you know, I haven’t had any huge miracle happen, right. I told her there were so many times where I was screaming, yelling and jumping up and down. ![What is Betrayal Trauma Theory](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-Is-Betrayal-Trauma-Theory.webp "What is Betrayal Trauma Theory")And saying like, send help now. I need help now, I need something to change now. And nobody came and nothing happened, but things have happened slowly over time. Then I developed my business to have the best betrayal trauma resources. That has been cool to watch. And I can’t wait to see what’s going to happen 10 years from now. ## Betrayal Trauma Resources For Newcomers **Anne:** It makes it exciting knowing that it’s all working for my good. And having that faith that it will, even if I can’t see it. **Lindsay:** Right, so I had a question for you. So, let’s say there is somebody out there, and they’re totally new. I mean, this is their first introduction to anything recovery. **Anne:** This podcast right now? **Lindsay:** Yes, **Anne:** Okay. **Lindsay:** What betrayal trauma resources are available? And if the resources available to them aren’t healthy. What can they look for in what they have available to make it still work for them? ![STOP Ignoring These Common Betrayal Trauma Symptoms!](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Xz2bZTjFYcU/maxresdefault.jpg) **Anne:** Yeah, you’re in the right place now. If this is your first time and this is the first thing, and you’re like, what resource? You are at it, Betrayal Trauma Recovery is the best betrayal trauma resource. I created it so I’m a little biased. And the reason I feel confident about saying that is because women have gone to lots of other places and then come back and said, well, that wasn’t safe for me. But let’s say a woman tries something and it’s not, right? She goes to a COSA group, for example, or a different 12 Step Group, and it’s like, no, this doesn’t feel right. It just isn’t safe. So I would say that’s why I built Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Knowing that you’re looking for a place that sees it as a victim and perpetrator situation. So someone said to me the other day, how do you feel about the drama triangle? You know about the drama triangle, right, victim, perpetrator, and rescuer? **Lindsay:** Yeah. ## Choosing The Right Resources For Betrayal Trauma **Anne:** In this context, there is no triangle. **Lindsay:** Right. **Anne:** Right? And the same thing when people say it takes two to tango, both sides of the story. There is one truth. **Lindsay:** Right. **Anne:** And for me, for nine months, I prayed every day to know what the truth of my situation was. And I was open to knowing exactly what that was. So that if it is me, I want to know. **Lindsay:** Right. **Anne:** And what I discovered was I was in experiencing [covert emotional abuse](/covert-emotional-abuse/). That was the truth of my situation. Being educated about what abuse looks like, what manipulation looks like, is important. For someone just starting out, I’d say, my [betrayal trauma workshop](/clarity/) is a great place to start. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) It helps you determine what your husband’s true character is, and gives you safety strategies. It’s important to know what those are in the beginning. So that you can start practicing those while you observe to figure out what’s going on. Obviously listening to a [good podcast about betrayal trauma](/podcast/), and finding a solid [online support group for betrayal trauma](/group/). I’m like, now? And you’re like, it’s okay if you get around to it, like, in a week. **Lindsay:** It’s their journey, right? **Anne:** I know. It’s your journey. And so with inexpensive books to read, our books page is a compilation of all those books. ## Betrayal Trauma Books **Anne:** And most of them you can get at your local library free. **Lindsay:** Yeah, even on audio book. **Anne:** Yes! **Lindsay:** Which is awesome. **Anne:** And guess which of the betrayal trauma resources are free? This podcast! I was just recently reading, I hadn’t done it before, the ratings on iTunes. I was like, oh, they’re so nice. They said like, listening to your podcast has done more for me than 10 years of therapy. Stuff like that. And I was like, really? I’m so glad that’s the whole point of it. Healing from abuse is long-term, emotionally, physically, and financially expensive endeavor. **Lindsay:** It is. **Anne:** It is worth it, though. So whatever resource you choose, even if it’s just reading books, even if the only thing you do is go in your closet and pray. And that’s your “recovery plan.” It will be worth it. Something that concerns me regarding 12 Step Groups as a resource for betrayal trauma. Is the way some women are made to feel responsible for their husband’s choices. Or the healthiness of the marriage, even though they are not and have not been the abusive one. Here’s an example. When I went, women said, when I started coming here, that’s what made the difference to my husband. **Lindsay:** Right. **Anne:** And I just was like, stop saying that. The other thing I thought was interesting is that in that stage they thought their husband was doing well. I’m not saying one particular person, but I’ve seen this happen many times. And then later they find out that he wasn’t even in a good stage, and they thought he was. ## Shortage Of Safe Betrayal Trauma RESOURCES **Anne:** So that’s another thing that’s difficult about this journey. Is that understanding what a safe person looks like takes a lot of time. **Lindsay:** So much time. I mean, even for me, I’m still developing my understanding of what that looks like. I gather all the resources I can. **Anne:** Lindsay is a very intense researcher. **Lindsay:** Yes, I am. **Anne:** I would say, very organized. **Lindsay:** I’m working on letting that go. It is still a work in progress. **Anne:** Well, I’m grateful that you felt safe enough here. Number one, just with me as my friend, that means a lot to me. But also to share your story here to help women know where to find the best betrayal trauma resources. And again, any route is fine. Anything that works is great, because there are so many women in this situation of [marriage being hard work](/marriage-is-hard-work/). There’s no shortage of victims. Unfortunately, there is a shortage of resources. **Lindsay:** Yeah. ## Experiencing Betrayal Trauma While Pregnant? Navigating the emotional chaos of betrayal trauma is challenging enough, but experiencing betrayal trauma while pregnant adds a whole other layer of complexity. If your husband has been unfaithful during this critical time, know that you’re not alone. This guide aims to provide you with the support and strategies you need to prioritize your well-being and that of your unborn child. ![Betrayal Trauma While Pregnant](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/When-Betrayal-Trauma-while-Pregnant-1024x1024.webp "Betrayal Trauma While Pregnant")## The Impact of Betrayal Trauma While Pregnant Understanding the unique challenges of experiencing betrayal trauma while pregnant is crucial. Here’s how it can affect you: - **Physical Symptoms**: Increased stress levels can lead to complications such as high blood pressure, preterm labor, and other pregnancy-related issues. - **Mental Health**: Anxiety, depression, and emotional instability may be exacerbated by the betrayal, affecting both your mental health and your ability to bond with your unborn child. - **Nutritional Deficiencies**: The stress and emotional turmoil may lead to poor eating habits, affecting both your health and your baby’s development. ## Healing Strategies for Pregnant Women Experiencing Trauma ### 1. Confide in Your Practitioner It’s essential to inform your healthcare provider about your emotional state. They can offer resources and support tailored to your situation. ### 2. Prioritize Hydration and Nutrition Your body needs additional nourishment during pregnancy, especially under stress. Focus on a balanced diet rich in essential nutrients. ### 3. Create a Safety Barrer If possible, consider putting some physical distance between yourself and the source of your trauma. Creating a safe environment is vital for both your mental and physical health. ### 4. Attend A Support Group Joining a community of women who understand your experience can be incredibly healing. BTR.ORG offers group sessions where you can share your story and receive support. ### 5. Meditation and Music [Meditation for betrayal trauma](/free-betrayal-trauma-meditation/) can help you manage stress and emotional pain. Additionally, listening to calming music can also be therapeutic. Here’s some [songs about healing from trauma](/songs-about-healing-from-trauma/). [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ### 6. Engage in Physical Activities Simple physical activities like walking or gardening can be beneficial. The goal is to keep moving and focus on activities that bring you peace. Check out this [betrayal trauma playlist](https://open.spotify.com/playlist/6sygfT6pN0vFfViutVcDOs) we put together to empower women. ## Understanding Nutrition in Pregnancy Trauma Proper nutrition is crucial when dealing with the physiological impacts of trauma during pregnancy. A balanced diet can counteract some of the negative effects of stress and emotional pain. ### Tips for Better Nutrition - **Healthy Fats**: Incorporate healthy fats like avocados, nuts, and seeds into your diet. These can support both your brain and your baby’s brain development. - **Hydration**: Keep yourself well-hydrated. Water is essential for maintaining your body’s functions and reducing stress. - **Balanced Meals**: Aim for meals that include a variety of nutrients. Think colorful plates filled with vegetables, lean proteins, and whole grains. ## The Role of Meditation in Healing Betrayal Trauma Meditation can be a powerful tool for healing from betrayal trauma. My betrayal trauma workshop includes 13 [betrayal trauma meditations](/free-betrayal-trauma-meditation/) designed to help women recover from emotional and psychological abuse. These meditations are easy to follow and can provide immediate relief from the stress and anxiety that often accompany betrayal trauma. Experiencing betrayal trauma while pregnant is a deeply challenging situation, but there are steps you can take to protect your well-being and that of your unborn child. Prioritize your health, seek support, and consider joining a community like BTR.ORG to find the emotional and psychological support you need. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJRa1S7Gq-o If you’re ready to take the next step in your healing journey, consider attending a BTR.ORG Group Session today. You don’t have to go through this alone. Betrayal in a marriage can be a devastating experience, leaving you feeling lost, hurt, and overwhelmed. For women dealing with betrayal trauma, finding a path to healing is essential. Herbal remedies offer a natural way to support your emotional and physical well-being during this challenging time. Below, we explore the benefits of herbal medicine for betrayal trauma and provide actionable steps to incorporate these remedies into your healing process. ## Betrayal Trauma Affects The Body It’s important for victims of [betrayal and abuse to understand that our bodies](https://www.btr.org/betrayal-trauma-resources/) can be deeply affected, even when physical violence is never used. Many women in our community express that they have experienced: - Depression - Anxiety - Sleep issues - Digestive issues - Autoimmune diseases - Paranoia - Chronic pain, including pelvic pain ## Can Herbal Medicine Help Me Heal From Betrayal Trauma? In our community, we’ve found that the only way for women to even begin healing from betrayal trauma and abuse, is to seek safety. However, healing modalities, like herbal remedies, medical care, and meditation, can often help women gain needed mental clarity and strength. ## Bringing Your Senses Back to the Present Moment When dealing with [betrayal trauma](https://www.btr.org/), it’s crucial to find ways to ground yourself and stay present. Here are some herbal remedies that can help you live in the here and now: - **Lavender**: Known for its calming properties, lavender can help reduce anxiety and stress. Try using lavender essential oil in a diffuser or applying it topically to your wrists. - **Chamomile**: Chamomile tea can soothe your nerves and promote relaxation. Sip a warm cup when you’re feeling overwhelmed. - **Peppermint**: The invigorating scent of peppermint can help sharpen your focus and bring you back to the present moment. Consider using peppermint essential oil or drinking peppermint tea. ## Alleviating Physical Pain Betrayal trauma can manifest as physical pain, such as headaches, muscle tension, and digestive issues. These herbal remedies can provide relief: - **Turmeric**: Known for its anti-inflammatory properties, turmeric can help reduce pain and inflammation. You can take turmeric supplements or add the spice to your meals. - **Ginger**: Ginger is another powerful anti-inflammatory herb that can alleviate muscle pain and digestive discomfort. Drink ginger tea or add fresh ginger to your cooking. - **Willow Bark**: Often referred to as “nature’s aspirin,” willow bark can relieve headaches and muscle pain. It’s available in supplement form or as a tea. ## Improving Sleep Quality A good night’s sleep is essential for healing, but betrayal trauma can make it difficult to rest. These herbs can help you get the restorative sleep you need: - **Valerian Root**: Valerian root is a popular herbal remedy for insomnia and anxiety. Take it in capsule form or as a tea before bedtime. - **Passionflower**: Passionflower can help calm your mind and improve sleep quality. It’s available as an extract, capsule, or tea. - **Lemon Balm**: This soothing herb can reduce stress and promote better sleep. Drink lemon balm tea in the evening to help you unwind. ![Can Herbal Medicine Help Betrayal Trauma Symptoms](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Herbal-Medicine-Help-Betrayal-Trauma-1024x1024.webp "Can Herbal Medicine Help Betrayal Trauma Symptoms")## Finding Comfort During times of emotional distress, finding comfort is essential. These herbs can provide a sense of warmth and security: - **Holy Basil (Tulsi)**: Holy basil is known for its adaptogenic properties, helping your body cope with stress. Drink tulsi tea to feel more balanced and centered. - **Ashwagandha**: Another adaptogenic herb, ashwagandha can reduce anxiety and improve your overall sense of well-being. Take it in capsule form or as a powder mixed into your smoothies. - **Rose**: Rose petals can uplift your spirits and provide a sense of comfort. Try adding dried rose petals to your tea or taking a relaxing rose-scented bath. ## Bringing a Little Happiness Finding moments of joy can significantly impact your healing process. These herbs can help boost your mood and bring a little happiness into your life: - **St. John’s Wort**: Known for its antidepressant properties, St. John’s Wort can help lift your mood. Take it in capsule or tincture form, but consult your healthcare provider first, as it can interact with other medications. - **Rhodiola**: This adaptogenic herb can improve your energy levels and enhance your mood. Take it in capsule form or as an extract. - **Saffron**: Saffron has been shown to have mood-boosting effects. Add a pinch of saffron to your meals or take it in supplement form. ### Additional Resources For more information on herbal remedies and their benefits, check out these related articles: - [The Benefits of Lavender for Anxiety and Stress Relief](https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6007527/) - [How to Use Turmeric for Pain Management](https://newsnetwork.mayoclinic.org/discussion/mayo-clinic-q-and-a-turmeric-for-healthier-diet-pain-relief/) Healing from betrayal trauma is a deeply personal and often challenging journey. Herbal remedies offer a natural and supportive way to address the emotional and physical symptoms you may be experiencing. By incorporating these herbs into your self-care routine, you can find relief and comfort as you work toward healing. Although our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coaches aren’t experts in herbal medicine, we are experts in validating your pain and supporting you as you heal. If you’re looking for strategies to deal with finding out about your husband’s betrayal, listen to the [best Betrayal Trauma Podcast](https://www.btr.org/podcast/). If you need to talk to an expert on betrayal trauma, [consider attending a BTR.ORG Group Session today.](/group/) **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Can My Husband Change? 9 Crucial Patterns To Watch For](https://www.btr.org/can-my-husband-change/) **Published:** June 11, 2024 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** What are the 9 signs your husband is changing? **Content:** Many women desperately want to know, “Can my husband change?” The short answer is yes. The long answer is, it’s extremely complicated. If you’re interested in observing from a place of emotional safety to see if this will happen, you’ll need strategies to keep you emotionally safe. If you need help understanding if your husband is changing, learn about [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Support Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/ "Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Support Sessions"). We understand the deep desire to have a peaceful home. Anne shares that once you’ve established emotional safety, here are the 9 signs to watch for to see if your husband is changing. ![The Big Question: Is He Finally Changing?](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/jf3qujhSwdk/maxresdefault.jpg) ## 9 Signs Your Husband Can Change If you’re looking for signs your husband can change, this is what you’d be looking for. Without any prompting from you, a therapist, or anyone else, has your husband 1. Acknowledged his lies and manipulation? 2. Admitted all of it was a choice he made. And that he made that wrong choice over and over? 3. Explained all the ways he used false justifications? 4. Stopped denying and minimizing? 5. Shown empathy naturally, without being taught by a therapist, prompted, or reading a script? 6. Proven through his actions and words that your needs are equal to his? 7. Begun making a living amends for all the damage he’s caused, and he continues to make amends for years. He continually brings up the damage he’s caused to *you*, asks about how you’re feeling and what he can do for you. Then he follows through and does what you ask. It’s something he brings up often? 8. Accepted the consequences of his behavior? 9. Given up his exploitative privilege? ![What Are Signs Your Husband is Changing](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/signs-your-husband-is-changing.webp "Signs Your Husband is Changing")## 9 Signs Your Husband Isn’t Changing, He… 1. Criticizes you for considering him capable of behaving abusively (even though he *has* been abusive). 2. Reminds you about the bad things he would have done in the past, but isn’t doing any more, which amounts to threatening you. 3. Tells you that you’re taking too long to make up your mind. And that he “can’t” wait forever. Which amounts a threat. Which is coercion. 4. Blames his behavior, the situation or his choices on you, even in the most subtle way. 5. Says “I’m changing” to get you to do something you feel uncomfortable about. 6. Claims he can only change if you change too. 7. Whines that you need to help him change by giving him emotional support. Or anything else that makes his non-abusiveness dependent on you. 8. Criticizes you for not realizing how much he’s changed. 9. Condemns you if you doubt the change will last. ![Can My Husband Change Things to Observe](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Can-My-Husband-Change-9-Things-To-Observe.webp "Can My Husband Change Things to Observe")## Transcript: Can My Husband Change? 9 Things To Observe **Anne:** So it’s just me today, and I’m here to admit that I believe people can change. If someone decides to become a different person, they can change their character through choices and actions. Because I believe people can change, and so do most victims. The most common thing in the world for a victim to do is wonder or ask, “Can my husband change?” Or even “What are the signs my husband changing?” We often ask these [questions long before we even](https://www.btr.org/how-to-deal-with-angry-husband/) wonder what’s going on with him. And so we might talk to him about what’s going on, or we might go to couple therapy. Because psychologically [abusive husbands are expert manipulators](https://www.btr.org/covert-emotional-abuse/). He’s been manipulating us and everyone around him for years. So there’s only one way to know if he’s actually changing, and that’s observing his actions from a safe distance. ![What Are Signs He is Changing](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/signs-he-is-changing.webp "Signs He is Changing")Because when we confront our husband about his behavior, he’s going to kick his manipulation into high gear. And at this point, they’re either going to be very threatening, angry and scary. Which is the most obvious sign that he’s not changing. Or they may manipulate us in a way that feels good to us. ## False Promises & Therapy **Anne:** This could include committing, never to do it again. When really, he just means he’s going to hide it better. [Often they promise to start going to therapy](https://www.btr.org/narcissists-groom-victims/ "narcissists groom victims"), and they actually go to therapy, but that doesn’t help. That just means he’s an abusive man going to therapy time and time again. We see that therapy does not help an abusive man change. More often, it just solidifies the justifications he’s used for being abusive. He might promise to attend 12-step. He might even start attending 12 step meetings. But again, going to 12-step therapy is not a sign that he’s changing or even willing to change. It’s only a sign that he’s going to therapy or 12-step, that’s it. He might even partially or fully admit to what he’s done and the hurt he’s caused you, and apologize. But are his actions changing? Saying I can change or want to change is not the same as actual change. And if he has not changed. And it’s not safe to treat him as if he’s safe, because you deserve safety. ![How to Know if You Husband is Changing](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/know-if-you-husband-is-changing.webp "Know if You Husband is Changing")The [Clarity After Betrayal Workshop](https://www.btr.org/clarity/ "clarity after betrayal") is the best guide for teaching you how to establish safety without talking to him about his behavior. You can then observe from a safe distance to see if he’s doing any of these nine things on his own, without you showing him this list, without you bringing any of this up. Let me share a part of my story with you. ## Personal Story: Seven Years Of False Change **Anne:** For seven years. I thought my husband was willing to “change” and I thought he was changing. He was getting better and better at grooming over time. [He was really holding me back](https://www.btr.org/husband-is-holding-me-back/ "husband holding me back"). The therapy he was going to was increasing his ability to use therapy – speak and sound healthier when he wasn’t actually healthy. After seven years of doing this, he sprained my fingers and was arrested for domestic violence. When I met with my victim advocate. I told her, “My husband isn’t the typical abuser. He cares so much about me. He cares about our family. If anyone can change, he can.” Now note I’m saying this after he’s been “changing” already for seven years and hadn’t changed at all. In fact, he was worse. I had even wondered [if my husband had an anger problem](https://www.btr.org/how-to-deal-with-angry-husband/ "if my husband had an anger problem"). https://www.btr.org/husband-have-an-anger-problem/ She looked at me like, “Wow, you have a lot to learn.” And she advised me to learn about abuse. But I was nervous, because I thought he needed to fix a few things. As I learned more and more, I learned he was the typical abuser, and it was shocking and heartbreaking. ![Can I Know if He is Changing](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/know-if-he-is-changing.webp "Know if He is Changing")## Observing Without Interaction **Anne:** At that point, I decided to take a step back, stop seeking safety through managing his therapy, and observe him from a safe distance without talking to him. And as I did that. I absolutely could see with my own eyes. That he was not doing any of these nine things. And before I share them with you, it’s super, super important that you do not give this to your husband. That you don’t listen to this episode and think, “Oh, my word, I have to have my husband listen to this. I’m going to give it to him.” if you tell them to do these things, and he does them, that’s just more manipulation. These are things he must do on his own, without knowing about them. So as I share these with you, I’ll share parts of my own story. So you can see how I could observe these from a safe distance, without talking to my husband about them. Now I know so many of you are still in the same home with him. And so you might think, well, this doesn’t apply to me because I’m still in the same home. In [my workshop](https://www.btr.org/clarity/ "after betrayal"). I teach women how to separate themselves emotionally from him. Even if you’re living in the same home, it’s basically how to separate yourself from his false reality manufactured for you. So that you can live in reality and observe from reality. ![Can He Change What Are Signs](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/can-he-change-signs.webp "Can He Change Signs")So these examples are from my particular situation. Where I had a protective order and didn’t talk to him, but they work in any situation. So keep that in mind. ## 1st Sign Your Husband Is Changing: Acknowledging Lies & Manipulation **Anne:** These are the nine signs your husband is changing, without you talking to him at all. Number one, he identifies through his actions all the lies, infidelity, manipulation, and coercion. Also directly tells you that it was wrong for him to choose to do that with no excuses. This includes acknowledging through his actions that every lie, every time he manipulated your emotions, and every time he coerced you to do something, he knew it wasn’t good for you. But he chose to do it anyway. This includes your [husband lying about small things.](https://www.btr.org/husband-lies-about-small-things/ "husband lying about small things.") In my case, I wasn’t talking to him because I had a protective order. Instead of identifying all the lies, infidelity, manipulation, and directly telling me and other people that it was wrong for him to choose that. He was lying about what happened. He told people it was an accident, when I knew that was not the case. People would talk to me and say, hey, I talked to Chuck, I’m going to call him Chuck. I talked to Chuck and he said, this, this and this. None of it was true. All of it showed that he definitely did not identify infidelity, manipulation and coercion, and tell anybody it was wrong. In fact, he was trying to get them to gaslight me from afar. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## 2nd Sign Your Husband Can Change: Acknowledge Choices **Anne:** Okay. Number two. Acknowledge that his behavior was a choice, not a loss of control. Not a result of an addiction, not caused by something else, and that he did it to maintain control over your perceptions of him from the beginning. As my husband told people why he was not living in the home anymore. Why he lived at his grandparents’ house. He never mentioned any of the traumatic things he did before. He never acknowledged that all his behavior was a choice, including when he lied to me about his porn use before we got married. And didn’t say a word of it to anybody else. Instead, he kept saying “She won’t talk to me. How am I supposed to improve our marriage if she won’t talk to me.” He never actually said to them why I would not talk to him. That was a huge clue to me that he was not changing. ## 3rd Sign Your Husband Can Change: Explaining Justifications **Anne:** Number three, explaining to you and everyone else in great detail how all the reasons used to justify his choice to abuse you were lies. That would include admitting that blaming you for any of it was also manipulation. That would include reevaluating his distorted image of you. Including his tendency to focus on and exaggerate your weaknesses, and his grievances against you. And setting the record straight with anyone he’s misled about you. So that means telling you and every single person around him the truth about all the lies, excuses, and reasons he’s used to cover up all the lies, excuses, and reasons. They lie initially, and then they lie to cover it up. So this is uncovering all those things, and he would fully admit all that to you and everybody around you. In my case, he just kept focusing on my weaknesses and his grievances against me. And they kept growing and growing. At first, I was just controlling. Then I became a liar, then abusive, and then I was an emotional blackmailer. I mean, I just became worse and worse over time. He wasn’t saying, “Hey all these years, I’ve made her seem like she was a little intense. When she was reacting perfectly for what I was putting her through.” So I knew he was digging deeper to his exploitative privilege. And people believed him, especially his family. It was like a horror show. Most abusive husbands don’t make it past step three. But if they do those three things, here are the other six things they would also need to do. ## 4th Sign Your Husband Can Change: Stops Denying & Minimizing **Anne:** Number 4, stop denying and minimizing all of it. Including discrediting your memories and perceptions about what happened. So he would say, “I discredited your memory and perception to manipulate you to not believe reality.” He would say something like that to you and everybody around you. Now, if you’re thinking at this point, “He would never do that. I would definitely need to get him to the right therapist to teach them how to do this.” He’s not changing. That’s the answer. They don’t need to go to therapy. They don’t need someone to tell them. People have told them don’t lie, have integrity, don’t manipulate people and be honest. They don’t need a therapist to tell them this. They know how to do the right thing they choose not to, because their exploitative privilege brings benefits to them, and they do not want to give those up. So if right now, while I’m listing these out, you’re thinking he would never do that. Someone would have to teach him or get him to do it. That is your answer. That is your husband’s character. And he chose this character. From all the little choices he makes every day. Until this is who he is. I remember this phase of trying to get to safety so well. I was resisting abuse by thinking my husband didn’t know better. And so we went to so much therapy. We went to pornography addiction recovery. I got him into all the best programs. He loved the idea of me thinking he just needed help. Because that kept me trapped. He did not want me to know that he already knew. That’s so hard. Especially when he’s manipulated us and lied to us to make us believe he’s somebody different. ## 5th Sign Your Husband Can Change: Showing Empathy **Anne:** Number five is shown in great detail through his actions, how his emotional, psychological, sexual, financial, and physical abuse affected you and your children. And shown empathy about how much he harmed you, without mentioning how hard it’s been for him. Without mentioning anything about himself. So as I am waiting from a safe distance to see if my husband is changing. He’s talking with friends and family. They reported back to me that as he talked with him. He talked all about how he was having such a hard time, how he was depressed. How he was trying so hard and I wouldn’t help him. But he never once asked them how I was doing. If I was okay or if I needed anything. One time he did message me because he was messaging me about the kids. And said, what can I do? My daughter had lost her earring when she was with him. And I said, “Pay for the $20 earring she lost at your house.” And he went on a big rant about how she shouldn’t have got her ears pierced. When she had her ears pierced three years before that. And he never said a word about it at that time. So I was like, he won’t even pay for an earring. ## Examples Of Lack Of Empathy **Anne:** Because I wasn’t doing anything for him at all. I was just observing from a safe distance. He told one person, “She’s literally doing nothing. She does nothing all day.” He didn’t realize what he was saying because he wasn’t parenting the kids. He wasn’t looking after the house. I was single parenting, three young children ages six, three, and one by myself. All the childcare, all the bill paying, everything. And then he shut down my bank accounts. So I was also making sure that we had food, making sure that we were taken care of. I was doing so much. And for him to tell someone, “She literally does nothing all day.” Was an indication to me that it was just about him. He had no sense of who I was separate from him. Because I wasn’t doing anything for him. He perceived that I wasn’t doing anything at all. All this to say, He was constantly telling people how he felt and what he was going through. Never seemed concerned about what I was going through and how I was doing. ## 6th Sign Your Husband Can Change: Your Needs Are Equal To His **Anne:** Number six demonstrates that you have rights and they are equal to his. So if he’s complained all the time about how his sexual needs aren’t being met at this time. He would say something like “I realized you have the right to not have sex and you have the need not to have sex. And that’s just as equal as my desire to have sex. We are equal. I don’t know how to resolve it. But because they’re equal. I can’t trump you.” This actually reminds me of the first time I found out that he was using pornography. And he was in pornography addiction, recovery, and he told me he was changing and I was believing him at the time. So this was years before his arrest. He said, “Hey, I have a right to privacy. And so I don’t want you to tell people that I’ve been using pornography.” And I said, “I have a right to tell people the truth. So we’re even.” Instead of saying, “Oh, that’s a good point, sounds good.” No, he got extremely angry, because his right to “privacy” was apparently more important than my right to tell people the truth. So if he still thinks his rights are more important than yours, that’s a sign your husband isn’t changing. All right now we’re at number seven. This is the seventh sign. ## 7th Sign Your Husband Can Change: Living Amends For The Damages He Caused You **Anne:** All right now, we’re at number seven. This is the seventh sign your husband is changing. If he were changing, he would make constant living amends for the damages he caused you, consistently being kind and supportive and putting your needs before his own across the board for at least five years. And that’s a long time. So what you’re observing from a safe distance is new patterns over time, but for a long time. And you can wait at a safe distance for as long as you need to. I waited for nine months, not talking with my husband at all, observing. And rather than making amends and making sure I was supported. He escalated to get me to let him back in the house, like, “Well, if she won’t let me back in the house, I’ll cut off her access to money and then she’ll have to talk to me.” I just stayed safe. Because him doing that was a sign he wasn’t safe. So I wasn’t going to be like, “Oh, great. He’s cut off my access to money that shows me he’s safe enough to talk to.” No, no, no. I knew exactly what he was doing, and I did not want to put myself in the position for him to harm me even more. Him cutting off my access to money was harm in and of itself. ## Examples Of Living Amends **Anne:** But me going to him and asking him for money would put me in a position to manipulate me, to groom me. And that scared me to death. I thought a person who is good and kind will know that I am a single mom of three tiny kids who hasn’t worked in a few years. I’m going to need money. Like any normal person would know that. So him putting me in a position where his own children might not be fed was horrifying. He didn’t care about our basic needs, or our physical safety. And I wasn’t going to rely on someone who legit was willing to harm me and let us starve. I was not going to go to THAT guy for grocery money. Instead, I actually got food stamps. I got food from the food pantry. I was able to get on a few government programs that helped me significantly through that time, so that I didn’t have to rely on someone who would use food to harm me. ## 8th Sign Your Husband Can Change: Accepting Consequences **Anne:** Number 8, a sign your husband is changing would be if he had stopped whining about or blaming you for the problems that are the result of his abuse. Such as financial problems you might have because maybe you’re separated. Or your loss of desire to be sexual with him, or the children’s tendency to prefer you. He would need to realize that everything related to the current situation is the consequence of his own choices. And not your response to his abuse. My ex kept posting on Facebook during this time that he was going through this trial, this very difficult time in his life. And he could use prayers and that his wife had made these choices that were affecting him. And he was doing everything he could. Which he wasn’t doing anything, but he told everybody that. He wasn’t saying because of my abuse, my wife kicked me out of the house, which makes sense. And now all the problems I have are related to my choices. Nope, he never said that. ## 9th Sign Your Husband Can Change: Giving Up Privileges **Anne:** And number nine, he’s given up his privileges and said goodbye to double standards, including flirting with other women or leaving without telling you where he’s going. Avoiding childcare, avoiding housework, et cetera, et etera. That he sees you as an equal. So for me, as I’m observing at a safe distance. He is telling everyone, “She’s not doing anything. She sits around and does nothing all day. And I am working so hard for the relationship.” But I could see from my safe distance what he was doing. Like I said, he shut down my bank accounts. And then he used that money to buy an expensive rally car. He went to a week-long handgun camp. To improve his skill with a handgun. He was going to a singles congregation picking up on women, even though he hadn’t filed for divorce. So I didn’t see any of those nine signs that my husband was changing at all. Again, If you’re still living in the same home, you can still do the [workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/ "how to get away from abusive ex") strategies to observe from a safe distance. That is your best bet to knowing what is going on. It’s also the safest for you. These men are really calculating and scary. And you want to be careful, because the coercive control is so intense. It’s very difficult to see reality. If we tip them off, we suspect them. They’ll just kick their grooming into high gear. ## 9 Signs Of No Change **Anne:** And then you can read the transcription that will have all the nine signs your husband is changing listed. So now I’m going to share nine signs, your husband isn’t changing. Number 1, he criticizes you for considering him capable of behaving abusively, even though he’s been abusive. Like, how could I ever do that? I would never do that. You don’t have to confront him. You don’t have to say, “Hey, you were abusive.” You just need to watch him, if he says something like, “Oh, I would never do that.” When you know he has, that’s a sign. Number 2, he reminds you about the bad [things he would have done in the past](https://www.btr.org/is-infidelity-abuse/), but isn’t doing any more, which amounts to threatening you. Number 3, your husband tells you that you’re taking too long to make up your mind. And then he can’t wait forever. That’s coercion. It reminds me of when we were separated, and I was just waiting and observing from a safe distance. He shared his thoughts with people around us. ## Blaming His Actions On Addiction Shows No Change They were none of the things on that list of nine things he would do if he’s changing. But on this one, that can’t wait forever. My ex is an attorney. He only spent one night in jail, and then he bailed himself out and went to stay with his grandparents. And he made sure that I heard through the grapevine that if I didn’t let him back into the house, he would get his own apartment. He basically threatened, if she doesn’t talk to me, I’m going to get my own apartment. And I was like, okay, go ahead and get your own apartment. Kind of like, I can’t wait forever. That was definitely a sign that he wasn’t changing. So number 4, if he blames his behavior, the situation or his choices on you in any way, or something else like his addiction or something. Number 5, he says I’m changing, but you don’t feel it at all. Number 6, he says he can only change if you change too. So that sounds like, “Well, I’m willing to not yell at you anymore, but this isn’t going to work. If you keep nagging me.” Number 7, your husband says you need to help him change by giving him emotional support. Or anything else that makes him dependent on you. Right now, I’m aware of a client at Betrayal Trauma Recovery whose ex-husband manipulates the kids by saying, “I need to be back with your mom, because she makes me a better person. Without her, I’m not a good dad.” ## He Pressures You To Trust Him Again **Anne:** So then the kids come home and say, “He just needs you, you make him a better person.” That is a serious sign that he is not changing. If he says he can’t be a decent person without you. Like yikes! Number 8, you know, your husband is not changing if he criticizes you for not realizing how much he’s changed. But he hasn’t changed. And number 9, if you don’t trust that as changes will last, and he criticizes you. Those are nine signs that he’s not changing. Before you do anything about this list, please enroll in [The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop,](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/ "The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop,") so you know how to get to emotional safety without having to talk to him about it. It does not mean divorce. That’s not what it means. It means creating some space between you and him emotionally, so that you can start seeing what is happening. Then from that safe distance you can observe. Without saying anything to him, Is he doing any of these things? Because if you’ve told him to do it, and then he does it, we know a hundred percent of that is grooming and manipulation. ## Finding The Truth & Living Free **Anne:** When I did my observation from a safe distance, I almost crawled out of my skin. It was so painful. It was so hard. I kept thinking he needs a therapist. Explain it to him. Like, he’s not going to get it. I didn’t realize back then that he had heard it from so many places, church and just general society. Pretty much everyone knows you shouldn’t lie to your wife, but he was still lying to me. He didn’t need a therapist. He just needed to stop lying to me. But I really genuinely thought he couldn’t do it. Now I’ve observed him over the last 10 years since I have [divorced my abusive husband](https://www.btr.org/divorcing-an-abusive-husband/ "divorced my abusive husband"), and he continues to be this way. Now I’m very comfortable with saying, oh, this is who he is. And this is who he’s chosen to be. But back in the day, when I tried to decide, is he safe? Can he change? It was absolutely the most uncomfortable, painful, difficult thing. [The Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/ "The Living Free Workshop") will give you some thought strategies to reduce the pain a little bit. It’s still going to be painful and hard, but so you can get through that difficult time of observing to see what his character truly is like. And then our coaches are always here to help you. If you’re trying to figure out like, is he changing? Is he not changing? I don’t know what to do next. We are here for you. We’d love to see you in a [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session](https://www.btr.org/group/ "Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session") today. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast **Tags:** emotional abuse --- ### [The Truth About What Bible Says About Narcissistic Abuse](https://www.btr.org/what-does-the-bible-say-about-narcissistic-abuse/) **Published:** March 21, 2023 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** If you're a woman of faith, here's a list of scriptures that will help you know what to do next. **Content:** If you’re wondering, “What does the bible say about narcissistic abuse?” Here’s a list of scriptures that will help you know what to do next. To know if you’re one of the 19 different types of narcissistic abuse, take our[ free emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ## Transcript: What Does The Bible Say About Narcissistic Abuse? **Anne:** I am honored to have Leslie Vernick on today’s episode. Welcome, Leslie. We will talk about what does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse. **Leslie:** Thanks Anne for having me. I’m so excited to be part of your podcast today. It’s been a personal journey to figure out what God’s word really says. Can you break up with somebody as a Christian, or are you obligated to be in a relationship with a narcissistic abuser for the rest of your life? And so I’ve had to personally struggle with those questions. And work to get rid of the guilt and learn to do what God says. As Christian women, we’re taught James 3:2. We all struggle in many ways, we’re all broken, we all fail, and so who am I to say your sin is worse than mine? Who am I to judge your actions as abusive? And traditionally in the church, we have not even allowed the categories of sexual abuse or narcissistic abuse in marriage. It’s only if he hits you. Maybe it can be considered abuse, but probably you deserved it. You aggravated him, pushed his buttons or triggered him. And so maybe you should stop doing that. He wouldn’t hit you. **Anne:** Many people think when we say the word safety, that we’re talking about, he doesn’t punch you in the face. But we’re talking about emotional safety. What does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse? **Leslie:** I love that the Bible actually talks about the importance of safety, especially in marriage. The verse in Proverbs 31 where it says her husband trusts her to do him good, not harm all the days of his life. That is safety. That’s the rock bottom foundation. And so safety is an important quality to God in relationships. ## Common Lies & Misconceptions **Leslie:** He created our bodies to react negatively if we’re unsafe. So that we go to safety. But his lies, I’ll just give you some of the most common ones. It’s my fault he acts this way. So if only I were more sexual, adventurous, quieter, more submissive, more beautiful, had bigger boobs or whatever it is. It’s somehow her fault. I just need to try harder. I’m not loving him enough. I’m not doing enough to make this relationship work. God hates divorce. I married him for better, for worse, and suffering and sacrifice are Christian virtues that I must embrace to keep my family together. What does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse? And that’s a lot of theology, but I think that’s common in women of faith. Whether it’s the Catholic faith or the evangelical Christian faith. Church tell us it’s somehow our duty. And virtuous to sacrifice ourselves to keep our family together. **Anne:** So many abusers accuse their victim of being unsafe for them. Like if you were safe enough, I would tell you the truth. But you shame me, and all it is is manipulation. And so that confuses the victim, because she’s like, am I not safe enough? How can I become more “safe” for this man who says it’s my fault he’s not treating me well? **Leslie:** Well, he’s going to use this language that he’s going to hear in the therapeutic environment of safety. But he will twist it. So what he’s saying is, if I don’t have a carte blanche to do what I want, it’s somehow her fault. Life doesn’t work that way. But that’s the mindset of the abusers. ## Manipulation & Gaslighting **Leslie:** Of course, it’s not safe for me to tell you the truth, because I’m going to get in trouble and have consequences. It’s not harmful to hold someone accountable, or to expect them to tell you the truth. When the doctor says, I have bad news for you. You have lung cancer. You have liver cancer. He’s not telling us that to harm us. He’s telling us to help us. If you tell your husband, your pornography use is ruining my attraction to you, or your pornography use is not okay with me. I don’t want my husband preferring women on the internet to his own wife. When he cheats on you and he lies to you, that’s harming you and your marriage is a big difference. **Anne:** Another word for harm is abuse in that context. **Leslie:** Yes. **Anne:** The [pornography addiction recovery movement](/affair-recovery-advice-for-betrayed-women/), they have this whole thing around, don’t shame him. Be safe for him to tell you. They’re putting all the pressure for him to feel good about himself on her. When he doesn’t feel good about himself. Because of what he does and the choices he makes. **Leslie:** You’re absolutely right, Anne. If she’s muzzled and not allowed to share the impact of how that’s harmed her, because it hurts his feelings or upsets him. **Anne:** All it is is manipulation. What does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse? It talks about safety and departing from wickedness. **Leslie:** Exactly, and then what happens is the woman starts to feel like, what’s wrong with me that I can’t get over this? What’s wrong with me that I don’t want to kiss him anymore? ## Living Free Workshop: What Does The Bible Say About Narcissistic Abuse? **Leslie:** What’s wrong with me that he gives me the creeps? I’m a bad person, so she starts to assume that shame. **Anne:** And that’s exactly what he wants, because then he can continue to exploit her. And so I wrote [the Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) as an alternative to communicating with someone who will use your communication to manipulate you further. To learn more, click on that link. **Leslie:** Absolutely, his work is to decide what kind of man he wants to be. **Anne:** Yes, I went through that myself, and observed from a safe distance. That was painful for me to sit back and watch those decisions be made. And think, wow, that is who he is and who he’s choosing to be. **Leslie:** Yes, the most important thing is to focus on getting as healthy and strong as possible. So you’re not clinging to him like a beggar saying, please love me and please don’t leave me. And I’m too scared to be on my own. That you’re becoming the person your kids need, and that you’re going to like at the end of the day. No woman gets married with the idea that I’m going to get divorced, especially people of faith. What does the [Bible say about divorce](https://www.btr.org/what-does-the-bible-say-about-divorce/)? That for better or worse, the covenant and sanctity of marriage are all important values that we hold dear. However, when there’s no safety, the marriage relationship is dead, even if you [stay legally married after infidelity](/should-you-stay-married-after-infidelity/). And it’s sad, and it’s awful, but we need a death certificate so that we can move on. God acknowledges that in the scriptures. ## The Reality Of Unsafe Marriages **Leslie:** What does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse? In Malachi, it says I hate when a man trades his wife in for a younger model. I hate when you treat your wife treacherously. God hates that patriarchal culture of those days. But I think God is aware that you can’t make a relationship work with everybody. Even Jesus, who was perfect, couldn’t make his relationship with Judas work. Judas went and did what he wanted to do. **Anne:** I had an epiphany about the three temptations of Christ when Satan’s like, throw yourself off a building. And I think he was tempting him with contention. I don’t think he was actually tempting him with throwing himself off a building. And if I had been in that scenario, I’d be like, Satan, you’re so stupid. Why would I throw myself off a building? And I would completely fall into the temptation of an argument. **Leslie:** The interesting thing about that whole temptation is that Satan used scripture. And I think this is important for your audience Anne, because people, pastors, your mother, your father, your husband will use scripture to try to get you confused. Jesus used scripture back to Satan. And that’s why it’s so important for us to know what God says about these things, because we can get spiritually abused. Narcissistic abusers use scripture to manipulate you. But the message Jesus is giving people is to empower them not to lose their dignity in a humiliating situation where someone’s trying to destroy your dignity. ## Verbal & Emotional Abuse **Leslie:** What does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse? The Bible is clear about certain kinds of abuse. In Colossians and Ephesians, Paul talks about abusive speech. Let no abusive speech come out of your mouth. James talks about abusive speech. It talks about reckless words pierced like a sword. And Proverbs talks about the damage of a relational betrayal. Psalms says your insults have broken my heart, and I am distraught. So there’s a huge impact of verbal abuse on someone’s soul, spirit, and body. Any kind of abuse, chronic adultery and anger addictions are not marriage problems. Especially if you’re trying to figure out [how to deal with an angry husband](/how-to-deal-with-angry-husband/). They cause marriage problems, but they’re individual issues, and marriage counseling can’t solve them. When you have a husband who blames you for when he does those things, and then you go to counseling, and somehow you’re supposed to fix him and keep him from acting out in those abusive ways. Women should understand narcissistic abuse. Whenever another person controls you, where you are no longer free to say, no, I don’t like this. Or this is what I want, or this is what I don’t want, or this is who I am, and this isn’t who I am. When someone’s trying to objectify you into someone in their image, instead of helping you become who you’re supposed to be. That is very destructive to your growth and character as a person. But also when someone is totally indifferent to your needs, your wants, your cares, your hurts. And they’re just living for themselves, it’s saying to you, you don’t matter. You don’t matter at all. You’re married to someone who says you don’t matter. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## Objectification In Relationships: What Does The Bible Say About Narcissistic Abuse? **Leslie:** So it’s a relationship of object to person, like my cell phone. I love my cell phone as long as it does whatever I want, right? But, if my cell phone should say, I’m not going to work today because I’m tired. I’m like, get rid of this cell phone. I’ll find another cell phone, right? Because when you have an objective relationship with someone, you might say you love it, as long as it completely meets your needs. But once it stops meeting your needs, it is disposable. And so many women are in these relationships with narcissistic men who objectify them. As long as you revolve your whole life around making me happy and making my life easy. And never cross me, and never disagree with me, and never bother me or ask me for anything. Just give, give, give to me. I’ll be somewhat nice to you. But if you ever want something that I have to sacrifice for you, forget it. It’s not going to happen. And somehow they’re supposed to keep this relationship going when a healthy relationship requires mutuality and reciprocity. Women long for their husband to value them, but what I say is that the person who has to value you right now is you. What does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse? It says every living thing is important to God. ## Documenting & Recognizing Gaslighting **Leslie:** You encourage people to document to help them see that they’re being gaslighted. Because they can go back and say, wait a minute yesterday or two days ago, two weeks ago, he did say this. And he did say he would do this, and now he’s saying he never said it. But he did say it, because I remember writing it down. And I can prove to myself, even though I’m not going to convince him. He’s going to lie and cover up and tell me I’m nuts, but I’m documenting my own sanity so that I can see that this is gaslighting or crazy making. Facts are really, really helpful. What does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse? God calls us to live in truth and reality. That’s why the patterns are so important for you to pay attention to. Let me just give you a quick illustration. I was teaching my pastors at my church, I said, okay, so let’s say someone was texting and they crashed into your car. And pulled out of the parking lot. They weren’t paying attention. And they jumped out of the car. They said, pastor, I am so sorry I crashed into your car and it was an accident. I didn’t mean it, but you know, the Bible says love covers a multitude of sins. And love keeps no record of wrongs. And I’m so glad you’re the pastor, because I know you’ll forgive me, bye. All the pastors laughed and they said, We would never let that happen. I said, and so let’s say he did it next Sunday and the Sunday after that. Even if you were gracious the first Sunday, and he kept doing it over and over again, you’d say, do not come back to this church. ## Christian Teachings & Misinterpretations **Leslie:** But our Christian teaching said, your husband can act like the devil, but you’re supposed to pretend like he’s Superman. Like you’re supposed to praise him, encourage him, and build him up. And never say, wait a minute, you’re acting like a fool. I’m not doing this. So a husband can drive a family straight off the cliff. And a wife is supposed to submit, smile, and trust God. That’s just not reality, nor does God ask her to do that. And so they feel entitled. Especially in marriage, I’m entitled to sex whenever I want. It doesn’t matter how I treated you. Your body is not your own, and they’ll use scripture to confuse a woman. I’m entitled to get out of consequences because you have to forgive me. I’m entitled to have my cake and eat it too. And I’m entitled to hurt you. That’s why it’s so crazy that betrayal trauma counselors would involve a wife. It’s not possible, it’s impossible. Even if you wanted to. Let’s say your husband is a diabetic. And you feel sorry for him, and you want to help him manage his diabetes. So you’re gonna cook right, and you’re gonna buy all the right food, and you’re gonna do everything. And, you know, count his carbs and do all that, and you see him on the couch eating Doritos and donuts. You can’t make someone do what they don’t want to do. **Anne:** He lies to manipulate you so you think, of course he doesn’t want to act like this. He’s an addict, broken and experienced childhood abuse. He’s a really good guy. He doesn’t want to do this. What does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse? It says tell the truth. ## Entitlement & Manipulation: What Does The Bible Say About Narcissistic Abuse? **Anne:** He just keeps doing it accidentally or something. Like, I don’t know. You’re trying to figure it out. He wants you to believe he doesn’t want to do it. And that he’s fighting demons or struggling. That’s the mark of a truly manipulative man is that he continues to do the behavior while making you think he doesn’t want to do it. If he didn’t want to do it, he wouldn’t have done it in the first place. Like, have you ever solicited a prostitute? No, because you didn’t want to. **Leslie:** When he’s sorrowing like that, when he’s, Oh, I’m so horrible and blah, blah, listen to what he’s sorrowing about. Because usually it’s not about who he is. It’s not like he’s saying, I’ve been a liar. I’ve been a cheater. I don’t want to be that kind of man. I want to be a good husband. He’s not saying that. What he’s saying is, I can’t believe you’ll leave me. I’ll be all by myself. How am I going to make it without you? I’m not going to have my … He’s sorrowing over the consequences. He’s not sorrowing over his character. So that would be one big red flag that would help you discern where he’s at. What does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse? There’s this interesting story in the Old Testament, where Naaman had leprosy, and was told Elisha could cure him of his leprosy, he was not a Jew. he goes to Elisha’s house And he bangs on the door, and Elisha doesn’t even answer the door. He says, man of Israel, come out and help me. I have leprosy. The King of Israel told me that you would heal me. ## Victim Blaming **Leslie:** He said, go wash yourself in the Jordan River. Dip yourself seven times. He didn’t even open the door. And Naaman was outraged. How dare he talk to me this way? Who is he think he is? **Anne:** Elijah’s like, I’m not going to subject myself to leprosy. I’m not opening the door until he doesn’t have leprosy. **Leslie:** Why not open the door? Why is this such a big deal to you? This is just marriage, exactly how things go. This is exactly how men treat women. Don’t get so upset over it. Don’t get your knickers in a knot. Men watch pornography. Just let them do it. That’s what they’re going to do, right? Men will be men. Men will cheat. I mean, I’ve heard that so many times. I had a client once whose husband sexually molested her daughter and all her little friends at her birthday party. They were like six years old, and it was horrible. He was the youth pastor, was arrested, had a trial and everything. And put in jail, and his parents still blamed her. Like, you’ve made this all up. You’ve vilified our son. You’ve ruined his career. **Anne:** Uchhh, that’s awful. I hear stories like that frequently. Victims are trying to get help, they’re doing the right thing by going for help. But they don’t anticipate that a pastor, friend or family member is not going to help them, in fact is going to hurt them. Which is why strategy is so important. So before you do anything, make sure you check out the strategies in [The Clarity After Betrayal Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/), because that will help you how to get to safety strategically. So that the helping people you go to don’t harm you in the process. ## Examples From The Bible **Leslie:** Part of it in the Christian world anyway is that we have made an idol out of marriage. That we value marriage above the safety and sanity of the people in the marriage. When a woman begins to say, I don’t want this, that can seem rebellious in a conservative Christian family. How dare you break up the family? She hasn’t broken the family up. She’s just exposed the truth. What does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse? Ephesians, says, do not cover over the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. It’s like pulling a blanket off of a ground with roaches underneath. Nobody wants to see that. So just leave it, leave it alone. It’s ugly. You talk about this clash of values and the interesting thing about it is God himself has a clash of values. What does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse? In the Bible, for example, in the 10 commandments, it says, thou shalt not lie. So that’s one of God’s highest values. It’s in the 10 commandments. And yet when Rahab lied to keep the Israelite spies safe from the people from her own land, seeking to kill them. She lied. She said they went that way when they were really hiding in another place. God commended her, saved her life. And actually, she’s in the Hebrew’s hall of fame as an amazing woman. So there’s a safety value God has. Another example, God says his value is that we should obey and submit to our authorities. So here we have two examples. One in the Old Testament, one in the New Testament, where King Saul was David’s authority, and yet Saul was treacherous. ## Getting To Safety: What Does The Bible Say About Narcissistic Abuse? He was trying to kill David because he was jealous of him. And David fled. He didn’t say, Now, David, trust me and stay put and suffer and sacrifice, and I’ll keep … No! He said, Get out of Dodge! And David did. And when baby Jesus was under Herod’s authority, and Herod sought to kill all the babies under the age of two. God woke Joseph up in a dream. He didn’t say, now Herod’s going to try to kill baby Jesus, but just stay put and I’ll keep you all safe. He said, flee. And the Bible says the prudent see danger and take refuge. **Leslie:** So this hierarchy of values, you can’t stay healthy, be healthy, get healthy, or provide healthy for your children. If you’re living in fear and terror all the time. And so safety is an important value to God. And it’s not wrong for you to create safety. Our brain has two channels. One is safety and one is growth. And if the safety channel is hijacked because you are in an unsafe environment, you’re not worried about growth when you’re worried about your safety. You’re just worried about safety. And so children who grow up in an environment where there’s a lot of turmoil, screaming, and lack of safety. Their growth channel of learning and maturing, and all that is shut down because safety comes first. And so we have to recognize it. Safety, physical safety, emotional safety, financial safety, sexual safety, spiritual safety. These are important values to God, and we do not have to be apologetic or ashamed for taking them to heart in our own life. **Anne:** What does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse? Yeah, getting to safety is what God wants for us. ## Strategic Responses To Abuse **Anne:** He says over and over in the scriptures that we need to separate ourselves from wickedness. Touch, not the unclean things, stuff like that. We’re commanded to separate ourselves from wickedness. If we choose to divorce to create safety in our lives, God is proud of us. That does provide a layer of safety. Because they’re not living in your space. It can provide a layer of financial safety in some ways. In some ways, you’re less financially safe, obviously, but it doesn’t stop [his covert emotional abuse](/covert-emotional-abuse/). you, especially through the court system. And we’ve covered this on so many episodes. **Anne:** It’s also why that strategy is important. And why I wrote [my workshop](/clarity/), so that you can anticipate the safety issues that will arise. **Leslie:** Yeah, what does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse? Jesus says to his disciples to be as shrewd as serpents, but as innocent as doves. In other words, he’s saying there will be some people who will be out there to harm you, and you better be shrewd about that. The narcissist or the abuser will try to pull you into it. The more he can make you look bad, the more ammo he has against you with your children. And this is such an important part to stay clear, don’t get into arguments or defend yourself with them. Don’t get into long explanations. Don’t get into trying to understand each other. It’s not going to work in marriage. It’s not going to work in divorce. Because if it becomes boring for him to interact with you, because he’s not getting anything out of it, then he might not do it as much. ## Avoiding Contention **Leslie:** But if he can provoke you, especially in front of your kids or someone else, and make you look like a bad guy and make him look like the victim, he’s going to do it as much as possible. So be strategic. Get some coaching on how to be strategic. If you’ve been married to a [man with covert narcissistic traits.](/covert-narcissist-traits/) Understand they have two high values. One is always to be right. And one is to always win. So pick your battles. Because they will fight you on the littlest thing to win. So don’t show your cards, and if you don’t show what matters to you, they can’t try to win because they don’t know. So it’s better for you to stay more silent and not say, I want the kids for Christmas this year. Or this is important to me. Because as soon as you let him know that, he will try to hurt you with that. So keep your cards close to your vest, and don’t share a whole lot, and be strategic. So that they think they’re winning and you get what you need, which is peace and quiet and not being attacked all the time. And that will take some coaching and strategy. And when you’re part of a group of other women, like [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group](https://www.btr.org/group/), you see smart, talented, beautiful women who have also been rejected. Who have also been abused. You’re starting to say, wait a minute, this isn’t my problem. This isn’t our problem as a woman. It’s a problem in the culture. It’s a problem with men. ## Support & Community **Leslie:** And I’m not going to feel the shame of his sin anymore. Because I have other women who I see are just as hurt and as normal. And just as talented and beautiful as they can be. Their husband still did this to them. And so it helps detoxify, I think, the shame of what their husband has done. **Anne:** Yeah, it’s true. Knowing other incredible women helped me feel better. And what does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse? Because I thought, okay, this has nothing to do with me. And just like Leslie said, strategy is so important. So check out [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop at this link](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). Leslie, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts on what does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse today. **Leslie:** Thanks, Anne, being with you is my pleasure. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Teaching Children How To Set Boundaries with Kimberly Perry](https://www.btr.org/teaching-children-how-to-set-boundaries/) **Published:** August 30, 2022 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** It's important to teach children to protect themselves. **Content:** Parents are rightfully concerned about their children’s safety. If you’re searching for tips on teaching children how to set boundaries, here’s what you need to know. ## Children Need To Set Boundaries to Keep Themselves Safe Here are four practical and empowering boundaries strategies when teaching children how to set boundaries: 1. Body awareness with basic hygiene, health, and safety concepts 2. The dangers of inappropriate media on the Internet and apps 3. Personal Safety – prevention awareness of safe boundaries for private parts 4. Educate children about emotional and psychological abuse. To learn about the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take our [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ## transcript: Teaching Children How To Set Boundaries **Anne:** Today I have Kimberly Perry, author of *Say No and Tell, a creative view of personal safety for Maisie*. That’s the girl’s version, and Daxton for boys. After teaching personal safety to over 1,000 elementary school students, she was inspired to write the *Say No and Tell* book series. We’re talking about teaching children how to set boundaries. Welcome, Kimberly. **Kimberly:** Thank you, Anne, for having me. **Anne:** So, I have these two books, *Say No and Tell Daxton* and *Say No and Tell Maisie*, in my home, and I’ve used it with my sons and my daughter. These books are incredible for helping children. Kimberly, why did you decide to write a book about personal safety for young kids? **Kimberly:** The statistics were shocking to me. How can it be that at least 2 out of every 10 girls and 1 out of every 10 boys are estimated to be sexually abused before their 14th birthday? According to Child Protective Services, every 8 minutes they respond to an abuse report. According to the CDC, about 1 in 6 boys and 1 in 4 girls are abused before the age of 18. While serving as a health and physical education teacher in the Michigan public school system, I taught a unit called personal safety to over a thousand elementary students. I wondered why I had not been taught these prevention strategies when I was a child. Sexual abuse can be physical abuse. Which most of us think of when we hear that term. It can also be non physical abuse, which is what a child might see, such as pornography. Or what a child might hear, which would be inappropriate language about private parts from a grown up to a child. ## Empowering Families with Personal Safety **Kimberly:** So with my experience of teaching these children and seeing the statistics, I want to share the message of personal safety for grownups, kids, and families, so they can be empowered. Like I mentioned earlier, it’s not just the physical body abuse. It’s the non physical, which includes pornography, and can be a grooming technique that a predator may use to groom a child into child abuse. **Anne:** That’s fantastic. I can use it to meet my kids where they are when teaching children how to set boundaries and concepts that I think apply to various personal safety issues. Sexual abuse, of course, included in that, but in my case, emotional abuse. I’m grateful that this gives such great examples, and then the concepts are applicable to many situations for kids’ safety. Things we don’t learn in [affordable relationship counseling](/affordable-relationship-counseling-near-me/). **Kimberly:** Anne, I am so delighted to hear you say that, because I want you to tailor it to what you need, your family values, your family terminology, and your story. So for instance, you were talking about abuse in general. Well, boundaries is one of those concepts. Boundaries define our personal property. And they allow us to take care of it by setting limits on others and internal limits within ourselves. So we teach our kids self control. That would be an example of an internal limit, the boundary of saying no defines ownership. It lets others know that we exist apart from them and are in control. So whether emotionally, mentally, spiritually, or physically, boundaries are important. So that we know where we begin and someone else ends. ## Structure of the Say No and Tell Books **Kimberly:** Within the book, there are three parts basically. Part one is the story where Maisie and Daxton in their own separate books embark on a journey of growing up, and their bodies change and prepare to migrate. The parents teach them personal safety before they go, and throughout you’ll see open-ended questions where you can define your terminology and values. You can pick and choose what you feel your child is ready to hear about boundaries, depending on what age. Part 2 of the book has 8 scenarios in which I research the predator, and turn those tactics into life skills for kids. So that we go on the offensive and not just be defensive. Some examples of the scenarios are privacy, private moments, guarding your eyes and ears. What is a safe secret versus an unsafe secret? What is a bribe, a threat and what is a safe game, etc? And then finally, the third section has solutions with numerous tools. There’s a quiz, a personal safety family plan, resources, and then a removable section for grown ups with all kinds of statistics. As well as practical ideas of how do I talk to my kid about body awareness? What do I say? **Anne:** I loved when I got to the safe secrets part, because we have a rule in our family: our family has no secrets. We call things for birthdays or presents fun surprises. So when I got to that section in your book, I was able to say there are no secrets. We only have safe surprises. So I changed the wording there to match our own family’s terminology of what I’ve been using for years. It’s so important to talk about these things when [protecting children from online harm](https://www.btr.org/how-to-protect-children-from-online/ "protecting children from online harm"). ## Teaching Childeren How To Set Boundaries: Family Rules and Safe Secrets **Anne:** And it was so validating to share that in a book with my kids, because I hadn’t seen that in a book. So that was cool. **Kimberly:** And Anne, you picked up on one of the themes throughout the book. You’ll notice the repetition, which in my training as an educator, is that repetition is important for our brains so that we memorize. You’ll see over and over again. Tell and keep telling until it stops. It might seem overdone, but for it to become part of what they do when there is a questionable encounter. Or something traumatizing. Our amygdala kicks in and we’re in this fight or flight. And it’s really nice to know this simple “tell and keep telling until it stops,” these kinds of slogans can pop into their minds and help them to move into action. As I involve myself more and more with this movement to protect kids and end sexploitation, there seems to be consensus that it’s not too young to begin around preschool through the elementary ages, so ages three to nine. Particularly when you notice a child becoming curious about the body and gender differences. Which can be very early on and is a natural part of developing body awareness. It’s key to affirm this stage and phase that it’s not shameful. Teaching children how to set boundaries, rather than reproduction, safe touches. Which feel comfortable telling them your body belongs to you. It’s okay to say no, thank you to any touches, whether it’s a safe touch or especially an unsafe touch. If they don’t feel like having a hug, they don’t have to have a hug. ## Teaching Kids About Body Autonomy **Kimberly:** That way they know they are responsible for their body and they are allowed to set boundaries. And also that privacy is okay, as they’re becoming more independent. Then they can learn about having privacy. **Anne:** Yeah, I have found that three is not too young to start to [teach healthy intimacy](https://www.btr.org/teach-children-about-healthy-relationships/ "teach healthy intimacy"). It’s cute, because my two year old calls a penis a peanut, because she can’t quite talk. Her brother’s four. And so she’ll say, Mom, where’s my peanut? And I’ll say, you don’t have a penis because you’re a girl. **Kimberly:** That’s cute. **Anne:** The other thing I think is funny, and I appreciate it about your book, is that my sons hate mermaids. And my seven year old is like, Mom, I do not know who invented mermaids. They are ridiculous. They only have those shells for breast covers. I do not like them. So I think that’s cute that they can talk about when they feel uncomfortable. They have the words to describe their discomfort or curiosity, which I think is important for kids. **Kimberly:** And teaching kids about their instincts. That uh oh feeling deep down in their belly, and encouraging them to learn to trust that. That is letting them know that something is not right, and they need to talk to somebody and tell them and get help. You’ll also want to note that this book does not cover reproduction which is saved for an age appropriate time at your discretion. **Anne:** Even though these books don’t cover reproduction, there are other age appropriate books that do, so I appreciate that these talk specifically about unsafe touching, and that I can apply that to the different situations. ## Teaching Children boundaries: Practical Tips for Parents **Anne:** Because talking to kids is so important, what do parents need to know? When they’re teaching children about boundaries and what to do when they’re exposed to a questionable encounter. **Kimberly:** The simplest way I boiled it down to: say no, get away, tell, and keep telling. When I thought and prayed about this jingle, I wanted it short, sweet, and rhyme, but also something that packed a punch and wasn’t leaving anything out. The way it’s read is, say no and get away if you can, tell someone and keep telling until it stops, take a stand. So the rhyme goes, say no, get away if you can, tell someone and keep telling until it stops, take a stand. And that last part is important, because often times kids statistics show they often share with a friend that’s their age, or they seldom tell. So even if it is reported, it doesn’t mean it’s always reported to the right person to stop it. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## Teaching Children About Boundaries: Develop Safety Protocols **Kimberly:** You want to ensure your child has their address memorized and their phone number. You will want to develop a family code word for danger. For instance, if your child is at a play date or an overnight sleepover. They can check in with you and say whatever word you have would be the code for, Come pick me up, things are not going great. And it is also important to develop some sort of check-in rule of at a certain time. Or you text each other to see how it’s going when they’re away from you. It’s also important that kids know how to dial 911. And you tell them the safe caregivers and trusted grown ups in your lives. And choose five of them, where you write their name and phone numbers. This is a significant distinguishing point: if anyone ever tries an unsafe touch, whether physical or non physical, that person is no longer safe. **Anne:** Yep, I talk to my children about that quite a bit. It’s not just about strangers. Statistically speaking, a child is more likely to be abused by someone they know than by a stranger. **Kimberly:** Yeah, 90 percent of children who are victims of abuse know their abuser. **Anne:** Yeah, making sure kids are safe from strangers and being abducted is important. But 90 percent of the time, it’s going to be someone they know. So talking about how to determine whether someone is safe, and if they seem safe, but they’re actually unsafe. Those are important things to talk about, absolutely. ## New Training Workbook for Organizations **Anne:** So tell me about your new book. A training workbook intended for clergy or teachers. **Kimberly:** This training workbook is designed for any grown ups working with children within organizations. However, I’ve found that many parents have also been buying the book to train themselves personally about how to help kids set boundaries. Youth pastors can train their children’s ministry volunteers. You could train your karate club and all the staff members working there or a soccer club. Any staff members or grownups working with kids with an organization will benefit. The positive feedback was supportive. There was a man who came up to me afterwards, and this is what he said about the training. He says, I’ve always felt this was institutional denial, and it’s almost universal. This is the first time in 35 years of regular church attendance that I’ve learned that there are well developed materials available to combat this problem. He was referring to the *Me Too* movement. Penn State University, Michigan State University and the gymnasts with Larry Nassar and institutional denial. He has seen that as a concern over the years, even though it’s a sensitive topic. He was delighted that we were beginning the conversation. The most important part is to learn the child friendly language. What I like to tell parents is that the kids, the grown ups, and the organizations, even though there is discomfort and taking the time to learn about preventing child abuse. ## Real-Life Stories & Feedback **Kimberly:** I cannot tell you how many people have shared with me their personal stories. People up in their seventies, all the way down to their twenties and thirties, sharing with me their personal stories of child abuse that they’ve never told anyone before. We want to make the term personal safety commonplace or familiar on two fronts, both inside the home and outside the home. As you mentioned earlier, there are the two *Say No and Tell* children’s books inside the home. This new launch of the training workbook is for training outside the home. Anyone can present this boundaries and personal safety workshop and take the preventative steps to safeguard against child abuse by empowering everyone in your organization. You want to do an environmental scan where you go through and rope off vulnerable places within the environment. You want to come up with a code of conduct for interacting with children. And this could be tailored for infants, toddlers, elementary age, or teens. And that way everyone understands the protocols. For instance, when a third grader needs to take a bathroom break, what needs to happen and what does that look like? Everyone should understand what those are so that everyone’s on the same page while children learn about boundaries. A mom of a 16 year old, one of the slogans she learned is that telling is not tattling. And so there was a social media incident. She explained to her daughter, please let me know what’s going on. And she said, telling is not tattling. And they were able to intervene within this questionable social media interaction. **Kimberly:** And there was another mom who read the say no and tell book, a mother of a sixth grader. ## Children can Set Boundaries: More Real-Life Stories And a similar situation where she took in the content and then made it her own for a daughter who’s a little older. They were at the pool swimming, and there was a man staring uncomfortably at their daughter. The daughter had the courage to go up to her parents and say, I’m feeling uncomfortable, he’s staring at me. She was so uncomfortable, she was trying to hide behind her parents, and they discussed it more. It was neat, because they had that communication where she could recognize that uh oh feeling and that instinct inside of her saying, there’s something not right here. Not only are we instilling in children that it’s okay and safe to tell. But if that first person doesn’t believe you, or the second or the third person, then you’ve got to keep telling. Until the right person believes you and will make it stop. **Anne:** Applying it to my own situation, where I was married to an abusive man for seven years, and talked to people about it. I kept talking about it, and I didn’t know at the time that it was abuse. I didn’t describe it that way, because I didn’t have the words to say that at the time. Until I finally figured out what was going on, and that was just simply thanks to my ex husband being arrested. Because of his arrest, I finally got the clarity I needed. I was so happy to see that in that jingle, keep telling until it stops, because that is what I did. And I think it kept me a lot safer than if I hadn’t said anything. **Anne:** I needed support. If you need the support of talking to women who understand, join our [Betrayal Trauma Recovery live group sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/). ## Finding words to describe it When kids start telling, they might not have the words to describe it. They might not come to you and say, I’m being abused, right? They might not have those words. I pray that all victims of abuse can continue to try and talk about it to the best of their ability until they have the words for it. Or until a helper gives them the right words, this can apply [how we can protect children online](https://www.btr.org/how-can-we-protect-children-online/ "how we can protect children online") as well. **Kimberly:** That example you gave is powerful, because it parallels exactly what we’re talking about. I was at the Coalition to End Exploitation in Washington, D.C., and one of the speakers shared a quote that I thought was interesting. When it comes to trafficking and child abuse, whether it’s a boy or a girl that’s a child or a man and a woman, it’s the same person, it’s just a different stage of life. Abuse is abuse, no matter at what point in time we’re learning it. It’s a powerful tool, because at that point, we can actually begin to change the trajectory of our life. And up until then, like you said, we just don’t know. Kids don’t know what’s happening. They’re not understanding what’s going on. They’re not sure how to say it or who to tell. And you understand the lies, the isolation. There are threats that keep us trapped. The more we can have these conversations, train, empower and bring it into the light. We can help ourselves, but also the next generation. **Anne:** Thank you so much, Kimberly, for coming on the podcast today. **Kimberly:** Thank you. I really enjoyed it. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [How To Survive a Narcissistic Husband: 5 Tips](https://www.btr.org/narcissistic-husband/) **Published:** August 27, 2024 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** A narcissistic husband can make marriage a nightmare. Here's what you need to know. **Content:** A narcissistic husband can make marriage a nightmare. Below you’ll find expert advice for women married to a narcissistic man. If you need support dealing with your narcissistic husband, check out our daily online[ narcissistic abuse support group.](https://www.btr.org/group/ " Group Session Schedule.") ## Why Dealing With a Narcissistic Husband Feels So Hard A narcissistic husband doesn’t just behave selfishly. He often: - Rewrites events to avoid responsibility - Blames you for his behavior - Minimizes your concerns - Expects emotional access without offering emotional safety Over time, this creates a dynamic where you feel responsible for fixing something you didn’t break. That’s why typical relationship advice often fails. ## 5 Tips for How To Deal With a Narcissistic Husband If you’re living with a narcissistic spouse, these strategies can help you stay grounded and protect your emotional well-being. ### 1. Recognize He Is Unlikely to Change One of the most painful realizations is also the most freeing. Knowing that he is who he is can help you make decisions about how you want to protect your peace. To see if he’s using any one of these little known emotional abuse tactics, take my free [emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ### 2. Avoid Arguments That Go Nowhere Arguments with a narcissistic husband are rarely about resolution. He’ll often: - Shift topics mid-conversation - Turn into personal attacks - End with you apologizing Focus on conserving your energy. ### 3. Have Realistic Expectations Sadly, if he’s incapable of empathy or concern for you, it’s important to expect it. Adjusting your expectations isn’t giving up. It’s seeing clearly. ### 4. Have Compassion for Yourself Many women blame themselves for staying. But the truth is, there are often complex reasons: - Children - Finances - Fear of escalation - Hope things will improve Self-compassion helps you move forward to do what’s right for you without judgment. ### 5. Invest in Safe, Healthy Relationships A narcissistic husband isn’t emotionally safe. That’s why it’s critical to build connection elsewhere: - Trusted friends - Support groups, like the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Online Support Group](/group/) - Women who understand what you’re experiencing Safe relationships remind you what reality actually feels like. > “If you choose to stay in proximity to your narcissistic husband, the safest course of action is to keep things very surface level. Talk about the weather, talk about your new lawn mower.” > > Anne Blythe, M.Ed. – Host of [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast](/podcast/) ![Deal with a Narcissistic Husband](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Deal-With-a-Narcissistic-Husband.webp "Deal with a Narcissistic Husband")## Transcript: How to Deal With a Narcissistic Husband **Anne:** I’m so honored to have Dr. Ramani with me on today’s episode, she’s a licensed clinical psychologist. You’ve most likely seen her on YouTube. She’s a professor of psychology at California state university, Los Angeles, and the author of lots of books. One of them, should I stay or should I go is amazing. The link is available on our[ books page](https://www.btr.org/books/ " books page"). Later in the episode, I’ll be calling out Dr. Ramani’s five tips for dealing with a narcissistic husband. So stay tuned for when I start calling those out for you. ![How to Deal with a Narcissistic Man](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/deal-with-a-narcissistic-man.webp "Deal with a Narcissistic Man")**Anne:** Dr. Ramani received her ma and PhD degrees in clinical psychology from UCLA, and her research on personality disorders has been funded by the national institutes of health. At BTR, we’re talking a lot about how addiction is abusive to a spouse. ## What Tools Can A Woman Use To Survive A Narcissistic Husband? **Anne:** So my first question for you is, while narcissistic behavior patterns seem to be a hallmark of addiction, those who get into and maintain recovery tend to cease those behavior patterns, indicating lasting change is possible, at least for those who choose to do the hard work required to get into and maintain recovery from their addiction. Yet for some, no amount of recovery work seems to bring change on. Maybe they’re not doing it right. **Anne:** I don’t know, but short of investing years to wait and see, are there indicators that wives can look for to determine if their loved one with [narcissistic abuse](https://www.btr.org/narcissistic-abuse/ "narcissistic abuse") patterns is capable of change? **Dr. Ramani:** It’s a great question because when you have something like addiction, tangled up with narcissism, just like if it’s addiction, substance addiction. ![Deal with a Narcissist](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/how-to-deal-with-a-narcissist.webp "How to Deal with a Narcissist")## Survive A Narcissistic Husband: Learn To Recognize Manipulation **Dr. Ramani:** That’s an entanglement of two patterns. Now, if you had someone, addict for example, but not narcissistic, then those are the clients where, whether it’s 12 step, trauma wor. Ongoing therapy, that’s going to work well. They’re going to commit to whatever they’ve promised to or promised to themselves in terms of their growth, in terms of distancing themselves from these patterns. **Dr. Ramani:** When you have both patterns present, The addiction and the narcissism, you’re not going to see as much change. You got to remember that the addiction pattern is very much focused on the other patterns. The, the lack of empathy, the entitlement. I have a right to do this, I have a right to five orgasms a day. I need lots of people who tell me I’m attractive like a spoiled child. So, I would then argue that the addict, who also has significant co-morbid symptoms of narcissistic personality, is not going to get much better. What you might be able to do is less time spent on exploitative content. ![when You're dealing with a narcissistic husband](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/dealing-with-a-narcissistic-husband.webp "Dealing with a Narcissistic Husband")They may be less likely to engage in another infidelity, especially if the stakes are high. For example, an expensive divorce, potential loss of custody of a child, a financial hit, shame in the eyes of their community. So dealing with both a addict and a narcissistic husband is a real double whammy. ## A Narcissistic Husband Has A Barrier To Treatment **Dr. Ramani:** But when you have that narcissism, because that tends to be what’s driving the compulsive behavior and the compulsive need for validation, that’s often going to be the reason treatment doesn’t work. So I would view narcissism as the barrier to it working, because there’s very little evidence, other than in the most rare of cases, that narcissistic patterns are amenable to significant change in treatment. And please note the use of my word significant. So a narcissistic husband has a real barrier to treatment. ## Empathy and Narcissism **Dr. Ramani:** What you might get is a partner who actually stops cheating, or stops going to other women, or stops going to massage parlors, or stops watching exploitative content. But, they are still un-empathic, they are still entitled, they are still full of rage. So it’s sort of like, choose your poison. Some people might say, okay, the addiction part’s gone, but this is still a really not nice person. That’s where it starts to get complicated. ![A Little Know Red Flag that Reveals a Narcissist](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/gvxpK9yloco/maxresdefault.jpg) **Anne:** Was that from Epstein? The quote, the five orgasms a day? **Dr. Ramani:** Now that you’re saying that, yeah, I guess I read something and he said, I’m a great guy, I’m a hard working guy, king of the world, I have the right to five orgasms a day. I’ve heard that before. **Anne:** Exactly. Yeah, entitlement. ## Recognizing Narcissistic Traits **Anne:** So, is there any way that a woman can see if he has those narcissistic traits while he’s using or does he need to stop using for a little while and then see if it’s related to the it. How can you kind of figure this out while [surviving narcissistic abuse](https://www.btr.org/surviving-narcissistic-abuse/ "surviving narcissistic abuse")? **Dr. Ramani:** If you’re going to try to determine whether you have a narcissistic husband, then you’re looking for things like, are they non-empathic? Are they entitled, grandiose, superficial, arrogant, prone to rage, or controlling? That’s what you’re looking for. **Anne:** So what they’re looking for is do they have the ability to empathize with me? [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## Dealing With A Narcissistic Husband: Don’t Cut People Into Parts **Anne:** Now, when women are looking for that, how can they separate grooming from actual real true empathy, because so many of these men, they seem like they’re very empathic. They can say the right things and do the right things, but that’s just grooming. So what would you say to women who are like, man, he really is empathic and kind and generous. Like my ex, for example, he did the dishes and he helped out with the kids. And he was what I would say amazing person. Then he’d fly off the handle and rage. Over and over again. What would you say to women who are like, well, there is this part of him that is so empathetic. **Dr. Ramani:** We don’t cut people into parts. It’s holistic. ## Judging People on Their Abuses **Dr. Ramani:** What I’m about to say is going to sound incredibly cynical and I apologize for it, but sadly I do judge people on their abuses and not on their virtues. Because you’ve now shown me what’s in your wheelhouse. I have heard the saying hurt people hurt people but that doesn’t qualify me or anyone else to be your punching bag. So the first time somebody goes off into a rage it’s time to go. I mean, it’s that simple and yet it’s that complicated. So no doing the dishes doesn’t obviate going into a rage. The rage always be more important than emptying the dishwasher. We’re 10 years from a robot emptying a dishwasher. **Dr. Ramani:** The other thing a lot of people confuse is generosity. They’ll say, but he took me to so many nice dinners, and he bought me an airplane ticket, and he took me on a vacation. Any fool can do that. Anyone who has enough money in a bank account, that’s just pulling money. That’s easy. It’s the heavy lifting. It’s how does this person cope under conditions of stress or frustration? ## Generosity vs. Genuine Care Something at work doesn’t go the way they want, you’re running late, you take a trip with them and things aren’t going right. How does this person handle themselves under those conditions? That kind of stuff shows up in the first four to six weeks of a relationship. If you find yourself making excuses for this person be very careful because those excuses at four to six weeks are the excuses you’ll be writing in 40 years. **Anne:** I love how you said a robot will be doing the dishes in 10 years when things were really devolving in my relationship right before my ex’s arrest. He said, I just want to connect with you and I said, well, what do you do to connect with me? He said, I mow the lawn. ![How to Deal with a Narcissist Husband](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/deal-with-a-narcissist-husband.webp "Deal with a Narcissist Husband")**Dr. Ramani:** See, there’s all those books out there, the *Men from Mars and Women from Venus* and the love languages and all that. I’m not a fan because those books run the danger of writing off as an excuse like, well, his love language is doing the lawn. I think doing the lawn is perfectly fine, but only if it’s embedded in a larger framework of empathy, kindness, compassion, respect, mutuality, patience, serenity, and compromise. And you know what? I’ll cut my own lawn if I can have all that other stuff. ## Co-Parenting with a Narcissist **Anne:** So talking about co parenting, let’s go that direction for a minute. How do we [help the child of a narcissist](https://www.btr.org/how-do-narcissists-treat-their-children-after-divorce/ "help the child of a narcissist")? When co parenting with a narcissistic individual, what measures can a healthy parent take to reduce the risk of the behavior traits being passed on to the next generation? ## Raising Healthy Kids with a Narcissistic Co-Parent **Dr. Ramani:** The one thing that’s most important to note is that it takes one good healthy parent to raise a good healthy kid. We know that. A lot of parents panic thinking, Oh my goodness, I really chose a bad person here. I’m going to pay forever. But what it means is that good, healthy parent now has to do the work, not of two parents, but of three parents. Because you have to do the work of you being a good parent. And then you have to do the work of dodging the bullets of the bad stuff that the unskilled parent is doing and then step into their role. That’s like a third job here. And I tell people that the key is, is to stop waiting for justice, but they should be doing this. They’re the other parent. It’s not fair. No, it’s not fair. And sadly, the only thing that many people can do is look in the mirror and say, I made a lousy choice, but this is not this child’s fault. And so I’ve got to step up. ## The Role of a Healthy Parent **Dr. Ramani:** I’ve got to do right and not get caught up in what’s fair, what’s not fair, but to do the heavy lifting of parenting. Which means teaching your child how to tolerate frustration and disappointment, teaching your child empathy, allowing your child’s emotional vocabulary to develop and grow. Never shame them or humiliate them for feeling anything for engaging with them being mindful with them. You have to be everything, you have to be the one that the soccer game, you have to be the one teaching them to wash the dishes. Do their chores and compromise and play nice and all of that. You have to be super person if this is the case if you’re co parenting with a narcissist. I have worked with many clients who had one deeply narcissistic parent and one very loving parent and the loving parent saved them. The only downside to this is if a child grows up with a very narcissistic parent, even if they have that very loving parent. Something I do often see in is that these people grow into rather anxious adults. ## Parallel Parenting and Exhaustion They still live under the specter of, I’m not good enough, or what could I do to win them over, or the tension or anxiety that a angry parent brought into the home. Even if they had that loving parent, it may not translate into narcissism in that person that when they turn into adult, it may turn into anxiety. **Anne:** I can’t be super person. So that is a little bit discouraging, but I will try. **Anne:** I think about that and I’m like, Oh, I parallel parent so that I hold a no contact boundary and that helps. But I still get exhausted. Being a super person is impossible. **Dr. Ramani:** It is impossible in some ways. It’s also having like those standards of like being the good enough parent, but also also. ## Validating Children’s Emotions **Dr. Ramani:** Never gaslight your own kids, and by that I mean, you don’t have to say, well, dad’s your hero, and that’s great. Like, if dad humiliates, for example, that child showing an emotion, then you can say, sweetie, that wasn’t okay. Emotions are wonderful, but some grown ups don’t always understand them. What’s amazing about you as a little person is that you’re actually brave enough to show your emotions. So you don’t have to say, dad’s a jerk who doesn’t even have one emotional bone in his body and is a narcissist. You don’t have to do that. What you can say is that what’s amazing about you is you’re able to do something and actually dad’s not able to do that. And that’s hard for him. Acknowledge it and it’s a struggle as it is, but also that it’s not okay to ever have their emotions shamed. Never let your kids say, Oh, that’s okay. Dad didn’t mean that or that’s just how dad is. Dad did mean it. That’s why dad did it. That doesn’t make it okay. You don’t, again, it’s that fine balancing act of not throwing dad under the bus because that’s not good parenting, but also not signing off on it and saying, that’s just how dad is. ## Charm, Charisma, and Confidence **Anne:** So, you refer to charm, charisma, and confidence as the three C’s of narcissism, yet acknowledge not all who possess those are narcissistic. In the early stages of dating, before the traits which comprise the pillars of narcissism begin to reveal themselves, are there other clues to watch for which might indicate whether the three C’s are red flags rather than positive traits? **Dr. Ramani:** I actually talk about this in the new book and I hinted this and should I stay or should I go? If you can find someone who’s charming, charismatic, and confident, and also empathic, kind, reciprocal, serene and patient and all of those things. You just won the human being lottery is what you did. Because I think that somebody may be very charismatic because they’re telling you a story of what they do for a living or about their life or something like that. ## Early Red Flags Of A Narcissist You can get so caught up in that story that what we don’t pay attention to is are they listening to other people or are they merely holding court. Acting as sort of like an entertainer rather than as a human being. The fairy tale. I’m not a fan of fairy tales. I think that in that quest, the larger than life people, we can get lost in them. It’s almost as though you have to in your head saying, if I’m talking about myself, is this person listening? Sometimes charming people are actually really good at that. So you have to be careful. It’s not just that they listen. Are they interested? Are they asking questions? Pay attention to how they talk about other people. Are they contemptuous? Are they belittling? People give you more clues than you think. You just have to be on. Now, not all of us want to be sort of a shrink the first time we meet someone at a party. ## Married To A Narcissistic Husband: His Real Character Will Emerge I get that. And it may very well be that the charming, charismatic, confident person is beguiling enough that you do go out on that first date or that second date. But notice what happens in those first few weeks, those love bomb weeks. Slowly but surely you’ll see their interest levels start to fade a little bit. You’re gonna see, again, real life happens. They might have to wait in line at a restaurant, or their order may not come out exactly the way they want it. Or, They may be barraging you with text and you can’t always answer. Watch how they answer when things aren’t perfect. We so desperately want the charming, confident, and charismatic person to be the whole package, that we try to ignore it when the other parts of the package don’t show up. And so, I think that if you can get those three things with all of the other stuff, then it’s fine. But those three things without the empathy and all the other good stuff, forget it. That’s where you have to pay attention. And empathy is one of those things people should pretty much lead with. So if it starts to wane, if the people can’t handle things like frustration and disappointment, those are the kinds of patterns that bring a relationship down. ## Hypersensitivity Is A Red Flag Of A Narcissist And another thing to pay attention to, no matter how charming or charismatic someone is, how sensitive are they? Hypersensitivity is one of those red flags that shows itself off early because people are trying to impress you when they first meet you, right? So if you say, Oh gosh, you know, I never knew that school was that hard to get into. And they’re like, what do you mean? That school’s really hard to get into. That’s a red flag. That they’re so hypersensitive, they’re like, yeah, whatever, I had a great experience. And they can’t be a bit easy breezy about it. That tension, that when they feel that they’re at all being slighted, that’s a very big red flag. And a lot of people write that off to like anxiety when they first meet someone. Uh uh. That hypersensitivity is usually a sign of more problematic things lurking. **Anne:** That’s interesting. **Anne:** When you said they’re listening, but are they really listening? It reminded me of my ex when I would talk. I thought he was the best listener because I could just sit and talk and he would just sit there and listen. But looking back, I realized he was never really engaged. He was just there in body, but not actually engaged with his mind. So he wouldn’t ask me follow up questions or ask me how I felt about it. I’m very I would say independently descriptive. I would just sort of say all the things I wanted to say without needing prompting. I thought he was a good listener, but I know now that that was not good listening. ## Listening Vs. Engaging He was probably daydreaming about bike parts or something. **Dr. Ramani:** Yes. And also pay attention to how much they remember. I mean, well, ah, well he has ADHD, so he doesn’t remember stuff. I don’t know. When you care enough about a person, you remember stuff. And if you do sort of feel like it’s a soliloquy and many times when we first meet someone, we’re anxious. So some of us talk too much when we’re anxious. So a narcissist might actually cut you a wide berth to keep talking and talking and talking and talking. We think that’s good listening. Actually good listening means that every so often they say, and how did that feel? What happened next? That their punctuation into the conversation means that they’re actually tracking what you’re talking. **Anne:** On that same note, when I would interrupt my ex. When he was talking to track what he was saying, so you mean this or, oh, this is what happened. He would get angry with me for interrupting him. And I was like, wait, I’m practicing active listening skills. You know, this is what people do when they’re listening to people. And he would get really mad and tell me that I needed to be completely quiet until he was done. Do you see that as that common? ## Survive A Narcissistic Husband: It Doesn’t Matter Why He’s Abusive **Dr. Ramani:** Yeah, that’s a real problem too. There’s a lot of places that could come from, it can come from arrogance, it can come from entitlement, it can come from family of origin issues. That that’s how they did it in this family, that you kind of did your little speech and then sat down. Here’s the thing. People say, well, if that’s how they grew up and I feel bad for them, I feel bad for them too. But if that doesn’t work for you, this is how it’s always going to be, you know? So it’s like, I get that people feel bad for where people came from and that’s lovely and compassionate, but you’re not going to change that. You can’t unring the bell of their history. So yes, I think narcissists, like I said, they hold court. Everything’s a soliloquy. You say this long speech and then someone else has a long speech. It’s parallel play. It’s not the interactiveness of a relationship. And so, that idea of stop interacting, if that happened early enough in a relationship, that’s usually a red flag of a problem. **Anne:** Wish I would have known that before. That would have been helpful. But hopefully our listeners will think about that as they’re interacting. Often, a narcissistic man will attempt to deflect his own behavior onto the healthy partner, his wife or girlfriend. Causing the healthy woman to question whether it could be true, whether she herself is the unhealthy person, if she is abusive. Do you recommend any self assessment tools to provide a reality check for a victim? ## Deflection And Gaslighting **Dr. Ramani:** Yes. This pattern of deflecting their behavior to the healthy partner reflects two things. In part, it’s something we call projection, so when something is uncomfortable in us, we don’t like it, and so unconsciously we’re projected onto other people. For example, somebody might have a forbidden sentiment, like they have racial prejudice or something, they’ll accuse someone else of being racist. You know, when that’s not at all true. Projection is one of the key defenses of the narcissist. Secondly, deflection is also gaslighting. So it confuses the other person. Anything that confuses someone else and denies and twists and contorts the other person’s reality is gaslighting, which is emotional abuse. So when all of that’s happening, sometimes people say, you know, it’s almost like my reality changed. I was getting sort of sucked into this alternate universe. **Dr. Ramani:** We know that one of the main tools of the abuser, and controlling partner is to cut that person off from other people, from friends, from family, because one of the most important self assessment tools for a reality check are the other relationships you have. The people that far predated this partner, the people who know you and love you and get you and unconditionally are behind you that you can go and check this out and say, you know, it’s interesting. My partner accused me of la la la, whatever it is. And it’s not something you believe about yourself. A good honest friend will say, yeah, sometimes you can be like that. ## Isolation from Support Networks Or they might say, goodness, no universe we occupy, are you that thing? That’s so strange that this person would say that. We all need those safe reality check spaces to go to. Like I said, in a lot of times a narcissistic husband detects that there are other people around their new partner that are going to be healthy and slowly but surely, they distance themselves from them. They say negative things about those friends like, Oh, your friend, she doesn’t have your best interest at heart. Or, Oh, your sister was flirting with me or whatever it may be. To create mistrust in those relationships to take away that support network. But we need those spaces. So it’s having these kinds of, like I said, unconditional accepting spaces where your reality is not being twisted. That can be very useful. Ultimately though, ultimately what I want for everybody is that they have within themselves. A space where they know who they are. The challenge with a narcissistic husband is that narcissists prey upon vulnerable people. As soon as they see that somebody’s not falling for their game, they’re going to get out pretty quick. A narcissistic husband is uncanny at figuring out who a good target is and running with it. And so I think that that’s another thing that it’s so important, especially for young women. To do the work of knowing who they are and what they are about. The problem is many people start dating and getting into relationships long before they do that kind of inner psychological work. So they’re building the airplane in the sky. You’re learning about yourself while you’re in this relationship, but this relationship is actually twisting your reality. ## What Are “Flying Monkeys”? **Anne:** What would you say to women who are worried about their abusive. husband spending time with unhealthy people around him. So they’re like, Oh, I don’t like it when he spends time with his family or these friends because they just sort of support this like entitled kind of mentality that he has. What would you say to women like that who are actually attempting maybe to isolate their abuser from the system that enabled him to be an abuser? **Dr. Ramani:** It’s an interesting idea because obviously these enabling systems around this person are adding fuel to this person’s fire, right? There’s no dissenting voice. They are empowering him, they’re enabling him, and he gets away with it. And this can happen. **Anne:** In some circles called flying monkeys. **Dr. Ramani:** Yeah, but flying monkeys to me are also people that a person enlists at the time a relationship ends. So the flying monkey model to me is like, let’s say a marriage is falling apart or someone’s breaking up. The narcissist will then go and poach everyone, even the people close to their partner, their friends, other family and say, Hey, did you know that she cheated on me? Hey, did you know that she was doing this? And so they bring everyone over to their side. and then they’re all doing the bidding. Like, what are you doing? Why are you breaking up with him? He’s such a great guy. Or why did you do that to him? Of course he’s hurt. They enlist people. I think that the people around them before that kind of rupture happens are just merely their enablers. ## Narcissists Will Buy Their “Good Guy” Image One of the classical models of the narcissistic person is they’re often very generous because they use money and they invite people on trips or they buy the round of drinks at the bar. That’s their way of keeping people close. It’s a lot less. effortful than having to actually listen to people. And people never want to kill the golden goose, right? So like, ah, he’s a good guy. He buys the drinks. That doesn’t make him a good guy. That makes him somebody who wastes money in a bar, but they then fall for that thinking. Like, well, he’s a nice guy because he buys the drinks. So then they can find a lot of people that enable them. It could be their boss. It could be somebody who’s very powerful in a small town, it could be any number of reasons. The fantasy, though, becomes, if I could just get this abusive, controlling, hostile, difficult, un-empathic guy away from his enablers. He’s going to turn into a nice guy? That’s a fantasy. That’s absolutely a fantasy. Because even a person in the midst of any group of people, if they’re good and solid, That goodness and that solidness will shine through. Maybe not as brightly as it would if they were around good people, but a person who’s just sort of not a nice person is going to be not a nice person. These people make his voice louder, but getting him away is not going to silence that voice. ## A Narcissist Doesn’t Change By Changing His Friends **Anne:** Yeah, it also made me think as I went through that, because after his arrest, he was quote unquote free, to hang out with whoever he wanted. Because he had a no contact order and I couldn’t influence him at all. And Then from a safe distance, I was able to observe who he chose to hang out with. He was just choosing to hang out with people who I thought were super unhealthy and abusive and just people I would never want to be around. That’s who he was choosing to be with when he had all these options. So that helped me realize, wait a minute, why am I trying to get someone who is acting this way away from other people who act this way when that’s really who he wants to be with? I just need to let him be free. Fly! I even told him that at the very end. I said, fly! Go! Go do what you want! He refused to leave. He wouldn’t leave the home, so that was fun. So you acknowledge that some women may not be able to walk away, and for them, managing expectations can protect them from individuals and the effects of ongoing abuse. ## Survive A Narcissistic Husband: Maintain Realistic Expectations **Anne:** Can you expand on managing expectations with a narcissistic husband and how it can protect a victim from ongoing abuse? **Dr. Ramani:** There’s so many reasons people cannot leave narcissistic relationships. Financial reasons, cultural reasons. They have children, religion, fear, anxiety, and that they still actually love elements of this person. They want to be married. Even on some of the good days are enough. They want that person around, and all of these are valid reasons, and I, nor anyone else, can stand in judgment of that. In this group, though, I am not counting people who are victims of severe psychological, emotional, or physical abuse. Obviously, that’s an entirely different game, where safety becomes everything. But in your sort of garden variety, narcissistic relationship, There’s a lot of reasons people stay in these sorts of invalidating spaces. **Dr. Ramani:** So if you’re going to stay though, then you’ve got to maintain realistic expectations and by that I mean you’ve got to recognize this is not going to change. This pattern is how it is. So do not expect that all of a sudden, if you lose 25 pounds, they’re going to be happy. When your kids are growing out of the house, everything’s going to be happy. If you kept the house a little cleaner, it’d be happy. He gets a promotion. It’s going to be happy. Nothing’s going to change. ## Survive A Narcissistic Husband: Expect that It Will Get Worse After Having Children This is who this person is, who they were when you met them. This is who they are now. A lot of narcissistic relationships get worse after you have kids. So some people will say we were kind of going along. And then we had kids and then it got really dark. You got to remember for a narcissistic husband, a kid coming along, kids are inconvenient. They’re noisy, messy, demanding, and magnificent. But the fact is they’re demanding. And for a narcissistic husband, that feels like a competition. They’re not always the greatest source of the narcissistic supply and they pull the partner away. So that’s often where a lot of narcissistic relationships start changing. Not to mention a woman who has a child, her body changes, You know, there’s a period of time where it’s not what she wanted it to be, and unless she has lots of resources, she’s not going right back to her pre baby body ever, quite frankly. So, all of those things can make it complicated. So in terms of managing those expectations, this ain’t gonna change. ## Tip 1 To Survive A Narcissistic Husband: Recognize They Won’t Change **Anne:** So calling this out for you, this is tip number one on how to deal with a narcissistic husband, recognize that they won’t change. **Dr. Ramani:** This is it. You are going to live a life devoid of empathy. With someone who’s arrogant. You are going live with someone who’s full of rage. You are going to live with somebody who’s constantly needing validation. So from what that means then is that you know that they’re going to insult you. You know that they’re going to invalidate good news. When you get a promotion, they should not be the first person you tell. You call your people, you call the people you trust and love and who will be thrilled for you. Call a few of them first. And then, and only then, you can tell your partner, Oh, by the way, I got a promotion. They’ll insult you. Oh, but it’s just a new title with no more money or who cares, or that’s not even that important a job. But by then you’ve already heard good things. from the people who matter. So you’ve got to learn not to engage. You’ve got to learn to totally dial it down. To make sure that you’re keeping it literally all the things you talk about, the weather, the first day of school is next Wednesday. Did you see that the guy across the street got a new tractor to mow his lawn? Like that’s it. The conversation can’t go any deeper than that. You want deeper conversation, you need to do it with other friends, people close to you, people you can trust. You have to engage in radical acceptance. This is how it’s always going to be much like the managing expectations. ## Tip 2 To Survive A Narcissistic Husband: Avoiding Arguments **Dr. Ramani:** You have to get out of patterns like defending yourself, that many times people who are in relationships with narcissists are always explaining themselves. No, no, no, but actually remember, but no, no, no, remember when it, no, there’s no defending. There’s no explaining. You’re never gonna win at that game because narcissists argue like lawyers and so you can’t win. So don’t bother. There’s no defense. **Anne:** This is tip number two for how to deal with a narcissistic husband. At least in our community, we’ve noticed that these narcissistic husbands really enjoy chaos, and they trapped victims into thinking. We need to defend ourselves, when they really just love the energy of the argument. They’re not trying to resolve things, but we are, and they know that. And so they trap us this way. So when Dr. Ramani says don’t defend yourself, she doesn’t mean, don’t set boundaries or don’t work toward safety. She means they use arguments as a trap. And we talk a lot about this in [how to deal with a narcissistic husband workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/ "The BTR Living Free Workshop"). The Living Free Workshop teaches you about what to do to avoid their chaos. **Dr. Ramani:** Yeah They like the argument for the sake of the argument. So don’t argue with them. Have the topics that you won’t talk about. ## Tip 3 To Survive A Narcissistic Husband: Realistic Expectations **Dr. Ramani:** If you do have to spend a lot of time with your narcissistic husband create a little bit of a detox period for yourself. Do something that’s pleasant for you, whether it’s a meditation, a book you like, exercise. Something. But understand that sadly, once upon a time, you made a choice or a choice was made for you that wasn’t good for you. And for reasons that are important to you, you’re choosing to stay in it. Choose to stay in it with realistic expectations is very different than maintaining unrealistic hope that one day this is going to get better. This is like, being in Chicago in the dead of February and walking outside in a bathing suit. You’re going to freeze to death. You know that. You live in Chicago. It’s February. You always wear a heavy coat. This is the equivalent of pulling on your coat when you know the weather’s going to be cold. You know it, so you prepare for it. You don’t walk outside in a bathing suit. It’s the same thing with a narcissistic husband. **Anne:** And so this would be tip number three on how to deal with a narcissistic husband. Have realistic expectations. [The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/ "The Living Free Workshop") really covers what is happening so that you can see reality. And so many of our community members have said that The Living Free Workshop helped them to really see reality and that helps women have realistic expectations. ## Tip 4 To Survive A Narcissistic Husband: Have Compassion **Dr. Ramani:** Yeah exactly you know what, no matter whether you’re stuck in this relationship or you can walk out, please don’t lose your compassion. **Anne:** And that’s tip number four to survive a narcissistic husband. Have compassion for yourself because you didn’t know what you didn’t know. I realize I’ve made the mistake of asking so many victims on this podcast. Like, what would you tell yourself if you could go back in time and you knew what you know now. Instead I think I should be asking, ask yourself, if you only knew what you knew, then would you have done anything differently? That allows for so much compassion because we only knew what we knew and we did the best that we could. ## Tip 5 To Survive A Narcissistic Husband: Invest In Good Relationships **Anne:** And that leads right into tip number five to survive a narcissistic husband, invest more in good relationships with people who genuinely care about you. **Dr. Ramani:** Exactly. Allow other loving spaces to occur in your life. I don’t mean finding a new partner or finding a lover. I mean friends and family and people close to you. These relationships, people put so much of themselves in it that they get tunnel vision. Sadly, we tend to give 90 percent of ourselves to the most toxic people in our worlds, and then give the 10 percent to all the good ones. We need to flip that math. Give 90 percent to the good people and give whatever’s left over to these really difficult, toxic people. I think a lot of people blame themselves for these situations. ## A Heavy Burden To Carry **Dr. Ramani:** The fact of the matter is, we do not do a good job, not as educators, not as a society, not as parents, to teach our daughters to choose healthy partners. So many people didn’t get that lesson. Yeah, they threw themselves into these relationships with a narcissistic husband and it’s a heavy legacy to carry, but you don’t have to lose the best of yourself. **Dr. Ramani:** We all have broader shoulders than we think, and you can carry this burden and see it for what it is, find meaning in that suffering, and cultivate the other meaningful parts of your life. > Our online [Narcissistic Husband Support Group](/group/) meet daily – attend a session today and find a community of women who *understand what you’re going through*. You don’t have to do this alone. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast, Related Posts **Tags:** emotional abuse --- ### [How To Recover From Betrayal Trauma - Lynea's Story](https://www.btr.org/recover-from-betrayal-trauma/) **Published:** April 2, 2024 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** As her husband's behavior worsened, Lynea sought help to recover from his betrayal. **Content:** In the early days of her marriage, Lynea attributed problems with her husband to normal relationship challenges or her husband’s culture. Lynea finally realized she needed help to recover from betrayal trauma. The first step to recover from betrayal trauma is to see if you’re actually experiencing emotional abuse. See if these [examples of emotional abuse](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/) apply to you. Recovery from betrayal trauma *is possible*. If you need support, we’d love to see you in one of our [online support groups for betrayal trauma](/group/). ![How Long Will It Take to Recover from Betrayal Trauma](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-Long-Will-It-Take-to-Recover-from-Betrayal-Trauma.webp "How Long Will It Take to Recover from Betrayal Trauma")## Transcript: How To Recover From Betrayal Trauma Anne: Welcome Lynea. Let’s start at the beginning of your story. How would you define your husband’s behavior at first? Did you give any reasons for his behavior? Lynea: We met at university and we we’re both quite young. It was my first real relationship after high school. I just was excited about going to university, we met through a mutual friend and at first I didn’t really see any behavior that was really off. I didn’t really recognize anything that was different. He was very kind. He acted very thoughtful, made it a point to keep in communication with me regularly, so I didn’t really see anything that was off. I was young too. I was 18 or 19 years old. So Anne: Even if you could go back in time, you might see something, it’s not anything that you could remember from your perspective now? ![How Can I Recover After Betrayal](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-Do-You-Recover-From-Betrayal-Trauma.png "How Can I Recover After Trauma from My Husband's Betrayal?")## What’s Causing The Betrayal Trauma? Lynea: As the relationship went on, I just wasn’t happy. No matter what I had told him, I felt like even though his behavior might change for some time, and sometimes for long periods of time. It didn’t really matter. I would tell him something, Hey, this is how you’re hurting me. This isn’t how I’d like you showing up. He would still continue to do the behavior. Anne: You didn’t recognize it right when you were dating, but when you did start seeing it, what things were you like, Hey, that’s not okay with me. What reasons did you give for those behaviors before you knew more? Lynea: Just talking about normal things of running a household, keeping things tidy. It always ended up in an argument. I felt that a lot of the load would always be on me to make things happen with groceries, cooking, finances, you name it. ![is Recovery from the Trauma of My Husbands Betrayal Possible](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-Do-I-Recover-From-The-Trauma-of-My-Husbands-Betrayal.png "is Recovery from the Trauma of My Husbands Betrayal Even Possible")I was always the one to do those types of things and no matter how many conversations I had with him. It seemed like it would always go back to that same thing where he would just forget about the conversation that we had and continue doing his old behavior. Anne: I want to say “forget about the conversation.” Right. They conveniently forget about it when it suits their purposes. It was mainly about domestic labor then? ## Financial Betrayal Causes Trauma Lynea: Then going out to spending money. He liked to go out and party with his friends and that type of thing. I just was trying to be more conservative when it came to finances. That would always cause an argument too, Anne: A lot of arguing that you couldn’t quite get a handle on it sounds like. Lynea: Yeah, it just left me very confused. I just didn’t understand the dynamics of their relationship and I thought for the longest time that was me. Quite honestly, [I thought I was the problem.](/my-husband-says-im-the-problem/ "I thought I was the problem.") Anne: So at this time, are you kind of chalking it up to maybe miscommunication? What are you thinking is the Cause ![Can I Heal from Betrayal Trauma](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Can-I-Recover-From-this-Betrayal-Trauma.png "How Can You Heal from Betrayal Trauma")Lynea: He is from another country and I thought that originally maybe it was just very hard for him to assimilate into rural Midwest small university. I thought he was having difficulties with that. He didn’t seem like he was very happy most of the time and I felt like a lot of the times it was maybe me. Anne: When you say I thought it was maybe me, was it because he was telling you it was you? A lot of the times we’d have the conversations in order to try to solve something and then he would start telling me that I just complained too much. ## When He Blames You For Problems Lynea: I’m not happy. It escalated over the years too. He called me names and I wondered am I the crazy one? Anne: Did you recognize at the time the pattern of his exploitation that the reason he was doing this was so that you would do most of the domestic labor? Lynea: I had no clue. After 24 years together I had no idea. Anne: Me saying that right now. Are you like, oh, or did you recognize that at some point? Lynea: I recognized at some point that he just didn’t want to take accountability or responsibility for things. If he did, it was when it was convenient or when things got so bad where he could recognize that I’ve hit my limit, then he would change for a while and there would be better behavior for sometimes several months. ![This Is Why He Seems Like Jekyll & Hyde](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/qCPG-fISzBg/maxresdefault.jpg) Anne: He was capable of doing it, he just didn’t want to. I think that’s really interesting to bring up because they are capable of doing it. I think they’re just not genuinely that type of a person. So they’re play-acting kindness or they’re playacting equality or they’re play acting genuine empathy and compassion. If you’re not actually like that, if you’re putting on a show, it would get really exhausting after a while because you’re basically acting all the time and even though you know how to do it, it’s not who you are. I think that’s why they can do it for a while, but then they just get tired. ## Betrayal Trauma: Recognizing Exploitative Patterns It’s also why the mask comes off when they are tired or on a trip for example, when it’s a little more stressful or they don’t have their regular coping mechanisms around. Lynea: Yes, exactly. When he would get a little bit pressed when things weren’t comfortable for him, you could definitely see his reactions more quickly. He would be easily angered, just irritated and just not really a fun person to be around in the house. There’s always this vibe. It just didn’t feel good. It wasn’t pleasant. Anne: What sort of things did you try in the relationship? Like therapy? [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) Lynea: He never was open to it. I wanted to go to [couples therapy or marital counseling](/best-marriage-counseling-near-me-for-couples/) after we got married. He never would do it. He didn’t want to do it, so I was okay with that. I grew up in the church, so I think that this kind of had a big reason for why I was so loyal and so I stayed with him for so long to be honest with you. I also thought patterns of where he would change for some time. He was capable of it, so it just made sense to me, well, maybe I’m the one. I was a very shy girl. I didn’t have much confidence. I’m completely different now than who I was when I met him. I was very shy, naive for sure, and I wasn’t very good at speaking to other people. I felt like I didn’t have a lot of relationship skills and so I thought really truly that it was me, I thought that I was having a hard time communicating. ## Stressful Situations Reveal Psychological Abuse Causing Betrayal Trauma I thought that he just didn’t understand and that it was this man woman dynamic that I just was clueless about. So I read a lot of books. I eventually did get some therapy sessions. I was always in the pursuit of working on myself. What can I do to make things better? Anne: Most likely it was because he’d led you to believe that you were the problem. I mean, part of it is that the abuse is the convincing of the victim, that it’s not him, but that it’s her. When did you start to recognize that this stuff wasn’t working like therapy and your self-help and stuff like that? Lynea: Once we graduated college, we moved back into the area where I’m from. We didn’t stay there for very long. We were just really working hard on trying to find careers in our degrees and I got a job in a big city. He started a business and so we were just really working hard for several years on my career. His business, we actually did have a pretty good dynamic working together, oddly enough. We did that together for at least five or six years. We had a brick and mortar business. Anne: So you were in business together. Lynea: He always wants to be perceived differently from other people. So when he’s around other people, he’s great. There are no problems. Because I worked so closely with him, I saw how he interacted with other people, so I knew that he could be a certain way and I thought maybe this was truly who he was. There again, I am the common denominator here, so I must be the problem. ## Recovering From Betrayal Trauma Is Hard When You Share A Life Anne: When did you start to recognize that it wasn’t you, that maybe it was him? Were you aware of pornography use or affairs or anything like that? Lynea: I knew that when he would go visit his friends, they would go to strip clubs and stuff. I knew that one of his friends was into some things even though he was married that I don’t approve of. I told him this, he knew how I felt with prostitution, but I never thought that he would do any of that. Because he was always very adamant against it and because he knows the problems that it causes in family relationships because he’s gone through some hard things. So I trusted him. Anne: That’s what he would tell you. Did you ever find out that he had participated in prostitution? Lynea: No, I’ve never found that out, no. Anne: So he may have or he may not have. You just never got definitive information about Lynea: That. Exactly. It wouldn’t surprise me knowing what I know now if he did participate. Anne: Why wouldn’t it surprise you? Knowing what you know now? What do you know? That might be a clue. ## When It Doesn’t Work To Decide To Make It Work Lynea: In 2018, we decided to move back to his country in Europe to be closer to his family and for him to be also able to help his father with businesses. Our business wasn’t doing so well back in the states, so I invited him to think about doing that because he just seemed like he was very unhappy at the time. I think that it might’ve been a good change. He had been away from his family for many, many years and I thought just this might be something that he needs. Maybe a fresh start would help him. That’s what we did. We moved in June of 2018. Anne: Did it help? Lynea: No, it got worse. Anne: Sorry, I think if it would’ve helped, you wouldn’t be here, right? Lynea: Well, in one way it helped because it stirred the hornet’s nest, if you will. Remember we were talking about under stress, somebody acts a certain way. Well, this really was out of his comfort zone, and I realized quite quickly the dynamics of the family wasn’t healthy. He was having a very difficult time working with his father, and so I chalked up a lot of his habits going out, partying. I had a conversation with him because I wasn’t getting any younger and I always wanted to have children. ## Temporary Behavioral Changes That Prolong Betrayal Trauma He always kept delaying it, postponing it. “Now isn’t the right time.” I finally had a very good conversation with him about what I was envisioning for my future, what I wanted in a partner, what I wanted in a marriage. If this isn’t what he wanted, then no problem. We can split ways, but now’s the time. He said, no, that’s not what I want. His behavior changed for a while. Anne: So he said, no, I don’t want to change things. I want to stay with you. Lynea: And then I don’t think it was too much longer after that than I conceived. Anne: [So you finally are able to get pregnant](https://www.btr.org/betrayal-trauma-resources/ "So you finally are able to get pregnant"), which is something that you’ve wanted for a long time. And before you do that, he seems supportive and he seems like he’s on the same page as you. Then what happens? Lynea: And then he goes back into his old pattern of behavior. He’s still going out partying, just generally not helping out with anything. I had made a commitment to myself after moving to this new country that it was a great opportunity for a fresh start. I’m going to work on being the person that I want to work on because so much of my life, I was just doing everything for him and I don’t know how I have the strength to do it. ## Become The Woman I Want To Become Looking back, I really don’t, but I just decided I’m going to go and play full out and become the woman that I want to become no matter what. That’s what I did. I found my own circle of friends, a new church. I found the support that I needed, the friendships that I needed, and I just really focused on that. Fast forward, my son was born at the end of December in 2019 and the behavior just got worse. It got a lot worse. I was happier when he didn’t come home. He was traveling a lot for business. I gave him my support so that he could travel and learn a new skill. I actually had peace in the house for once. It just really got me thinking it’s much worse, much, much worse than I originally had thought. Anne: Why do you think it took him being away, and we find this with most victims of emotional and psychological abuse that it’s very difficult to see how bad it is while you’re still in constant contact with them while they’re still living in the house. What are your thoughts on that? Do you think that being away from him helped you see it, and if so, why do you think that was? ## Experience Peace And Clarity With Support Lynea: Yeah, I totally think that being away from him helped me see it because thinking back to when we had moved to the big city and we were doing our business together. It was like the same kind of routine almost every day. We were working a lot and then we would come home and it’d be the same dynamic and I like to have people over at the house. He never wanted to do that. Looking back, I see that he really isolated me from my friends. He most certainly isolated me from my family on purpose, and that’s been very difficult. Now a relationship with my family is better than it’s ever been, and we are able to really discuss what has happened over the years and it makes complete sense now. It really does. Anne: Here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, our specialty is psychological and emotional abuse, which is horrific anything related to [recovery after betrayal](/recovery-after-betrayal/). Many women who’ve had physical violence say that definitely the emotional and psychological stuff was much more difficult to recover from, but just from your perspective, blocking doors or breaking things, did any of that happen? Lynea: When we were younger, I remember some of those things happening and he was always into TaeKwonDo and I got into doing it as well. He was quite good. He got up to be a second degree black belt, and I remember that we would spar together and I just feel like he was overly aggressive on purpose. ## Betrayed By Physical Intimidation So there was an excuse as to why, but it was just that kind of thing. There was an instance, here, after I had my son that he was aggressive and he scared me and I went to block him and he said that I hit his sunglasses and he busted his eyebrow. I don’t see how that’s possible. Anne: Well, if you’re an awesome at TaeKwonDo, maybe! I’m kidding. Lynea: Yeah, exactly Anne: That. Oh, we’re just wrestling around, but they do really have the intent to hurt you or are they kind of bumping you all the time or stuff like that? That’s covert physical abuse where they are sort of pushing you around and throwing their weight around. To let you know, “Hey, I could hurt you.” Lynea: I do remember that, and I thought it was always his way of when you’re teenagers or whatever, and it’s kind of like the childish boy way of getting the girl’s attention. I just thought he never grew up in that way. I always told him that I really don’t appreciate that. We’re adults. Touch me nicely. I didn’t really understand that. Anne: In addition to you getting therapy and trying to talk him into it, which he didn’t want to do, was there anything else that he tried or you tried maybe 12 steps or addiction recovery or anything like that? ## He Never Wanted To Work On His Issues Lynea): No, he never wanted to work on his issues. He said it wasn’t a problem, but it was a problem because it was continually coming up in our conversations. Anne: It’s interesting to me that he was like a health coach, but not healthy at all. Did that strike you at the time as maybe hypocritical or ironic or was he just so good at manipulation? Lynea: We had conversations about that. I’m like, physically, you’re in amazing shape. You play sports, go to the gym every day and you eat well. Why continue having some of these bad habits that just don’t line up? It doesn’t really make sense if the puzzle pieces don’t fit. He didn’t like to have those conversations. Anne: Talk about how you recognized it was him and then maybe what led you to seek safety Lynea: The last couple of years before we moved here to Europe. I think that’s when my journey really started of being aware that no matter what I do, no matter how well I behave or how I change things up or how I switch things around or whatever I do, it’s never enough. It’s never right. It never changes anything, and so I think that’s what gave me the courage just to live for myself. To do what I want to do and seek the things that I’m passionate about, create my circle of friends. Just moving here gave me that ability to do that and I’m so glad that I did because it really opened my eyes. I did have what I call the day of discovery. I was back home. ## Shocking Discovery Of Infidelity, The Pain Of Betrayal Trauma Anne: When you say back home, do you mean in the States? Lynea: Yes. We were traveling, my son and I went back home to visit my family for Thanksgiving. We had been there for a while and it was early November. I remember getting up and I was checking my email and I got two emails from somebody that I still to this day don’t know. They were just letting me know that my husband’s been cheating on me nearly the entire time that we had moved to Europe. I was trying to hide it from my parents because there wasn’t a very good relationship there with them because of everything that’s happened. I was just kind of in shock really. So I called him up and of course he denied it at first and then about an hour later he actually called me back and he confessed to it, but he said that it wasn’t anybody in particular. They’re not important. He wants to work on our marriage. He’s so sorry. Anne: It wasn’t anyone in particular, meaning he was having affairs with multiple people or just the one person he was having an affair with for a long time was just no one special. Lynea: I said, it’s just one person. He is like, no, not just one person. He just was very general about it. Anne: When I said earlier, did you know of any affairs or anything? Was it just because at that point in the story you didn’t know? ## Understanding The Full Extent Of Betrayal Trauma Lynea: Exactly that point in the story? I didn’t know. No, I had no idea. This was my big eyeopener and then things just started clicking into place Anne: And What do you mean by clicking into place? Lynea: The blindfold had been removed from my eyes and I saw him for what he was. I just understood this is the reality of it, and I knew that I was going to really need some help navigating this because I had a one-year-old son living in a foreign country, zero family here. That’s when I found Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Oh my goodness, that was a game changer for me. I know that I wouldn’t be the person I am sitting here today feeling the way I’m feeling, being able to share without the support of BTR. The first time, I was just searching online. I remember I got a therapist from somewhere else online. I did a couple of sessions and I’m just like, Nope, she’s not getting it. I needed somebody that understood betrayal trauma because it’s complicated, it’s complex. When I found Betrayal Trauma Recovery and I remember reading through the landing page. I just was like, this is it. ## Finding Support & Validation Through Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions I attended the [best online support group for betrayal trauma](/group/) for the first time and I was early. I’m always early to everything. When I joined the group session, I was thinking to myself, okay, there’s only going to be five or six other women joining this session at most. More and more women just kept joining the session and I was seeing all of these faces pop up and these windows. Well over 20 women, with every woman, I had some understanding and it was resonating with me in some way. I just remember feeling so grateful that I’m not crazy. For years, I felt crazy. For years I thoughtI had mental illness, depression, that I was the problem, and so I couldn’t get enough. I read a lot of the books that you guys offered on your website, I downloaded your book from Amazon as well. Everything was just making so much sense and I had never heard of anything like this. I did one or two [online support groups for betrayal trauma](/group/) then I realized I really need to get some one-on-one coaching. So I tried BTR.ORG Individual Sessions. Then I paired up with one of your amazing coaches and that was just such a wonderful experience. It just really helped me so much with what I was navigating. ## Necessity Of Betrayal Trauma Recovery Individual Sessions Going through divorce, trying to co-parent and also child custody. It was so valuable, so valuable because I didn’t have to sit there and try to explain to somebody that has never experienced any of this before. She knew exactly what I was talking about. She just had really good advice about how to navigate a really difficult time in my life. Anne: I’m so happy to hear that. That is our goal here is to really help women. Because I experienced it and everyone who works at Betrayal Trauma Recovery experienced going to a therapist and then kind of educating the therapist, so we don’t get help. We’re trying to help them help us, and that doesn’t actually make sense. So many people just don’t see this from an abuse perspective. When you got that information that he was abusive, how did you feel about that at first? Did it hit like, oh, this is what it is, or did it take a minute? Were you like, I don’t know about that. Can you talk about your journey to realizing that he’s abusive? Lynea: I went back and forth for a long time and I’m just going to be completely honest with you. There’s even days that I have recently that I questioned that maybe it was still me, as crazy as that sounds. It is a long journey to recover from betrayal trauma. ## Accepting Reality Of What Caused Betrayal Trauma Anne: Doesn’t sound crazy. All of us have been through that. Lynea: All the truth is there. Everything’s out there on his behavior, everything over the years and it’s like I always have to go back, no, this is what you did. This is what you tried. This is your thought process behind the things. Remember the feelings. It takes a long time to get out of that cycle of thought or the abuse pattern. It’s been a journey. Anne: Before we talk about this, I want to say that at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we’re not pro divorce, so whatever any of our clients feels like is the right thing for them. We meet them where they’re at. Your emotional safety and your psychological safety is our top priority. This is why I created[ my workshop to help women after betrayal.](/clarity/ "The Living Free Workshop. ") You decided that divorce is the best option and let him know. I’m guessing he didn’t react to that. Lynea: I was open to giving it another chance. Remember I was visiting the United States and then I came back right before Christmas to Europe. Because of the conversations that we had that we would work on it and he needed to go see a psychologist or a therapist of his choice. My ultimatum, attending therapy, he only went to two sessions. He said, I really like the person that I’m seeing, but that doesn’t work for me. I said, okay, well, that’s where we are. Then I think divorce is the best option. He went on to say that, and also, I don’t believe in marriage anymore. ## Betrayal Trauma: Understanding Their Exploitative Character I said, well, there’s not much that we can debate with that. If you don’t believe in marriage anymore, then you don’t believe in marriage. I guess I don’t know really what to say to that. Then he proceeded to ask me, my jaw about hit the floor, if I would consider having an open marriage. I said, no, no, that’s definitely not for me. He knows my values. He knows how I feel about marriage, so I said, no. I know that I’d let him know two times, if not three times I’m going to file for divorce. When he actually got served the papers, was furious. Anne: I find that to be so awful and scary, but also very interesting that generally speaking, they don’t want to get divorced. Which leads me to the conclusion that for them it’s about exploitation. They don’t necessarily want a marriage, but they enjoy the fruits of a partner, someone who will do things for them, childcare or meals. It’s more of an exploitative relationship where they realize you’re a powerful, awesome person. There’s things that being associated with you bring into their lives, and so they don’t want to lose that association. They don’t want to lose the access to all of your talents and your passion and all the good things about you. ## Recover From Betrayal Trauma By Moving Forward They just don’t want to participate in a relationship, but they want to be able to exploit you. That’s the only thing I’ve been able to figure out because if they don’t want to be married, why do they want to be married? It’s hard to wrap our heads around that. Lynea: Yeah, it really truly is, and that’s really been one of the hardest things for me to realize that I really don’t think he ever loved me. It is a huge part of recovering from betrayal trauma. He discarded me after being with him for over two decades. That’s crazy, and I just had his son and through my pregnancy and delivery and all of that, that’s a whole other story that we could go into on the treatment. It’s ugly and it’s very, very painful, and that’s why I just, I want to share my story and let people know. Let women know that they’re not alone and it’s not them. They’re not crazy. There’s no shame in being deceived. Anne: Well, exploiters use your strengths against you. You’re a compassionate, caring person and they use that to their own benefit. They’re not part of a team and it’s hard to realize like, oh, I’ve never been part of a team. It’s not because you’re not absolutely amazing and worthy of love. They’re incapable of that because their character is one of exploitation. They have an exploitative character and they also think that that’s sort of what a relationship is. ## Reflecting On How To Recover From Betrayal Trauma Lynea: Exactly, yeah. Instead of like a partnership. I felt a lot of times that I was his competition, but I thought, well, his personality type is he’s always in it to win it. Whether it’s or just being good at school. That was his strength, so I would always kind of back off also as being his wife. Oddly enough, I was thinking about this the other day and I’m just thankful and grateful that I could laugh about this now, but guess who’s married already? Yeah, of course. The guy who’s not into marriage. Anne: He feels uncomfortable when he is not able to exploit someone. Lynea: Yeah. That’s a miserable way to live. Anne: I want all women to know this. They have a really hard time being alone because their power does not come from personal responsibility. Their quote unquote, power comes from exploiting us. Then if you think about it, who is the powerful one? An abuser will always lead you to believe that you’re going to be nothing without him, but it’s the opposite. He is going to be nothing without us because he has nothing, because all the power that he has is stuff that he exploited from someone else. Is he going to actually clean the bathroom? ## Gratitude For Growth On The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Journey Lynea: Yeah, I doubt it because Anne: He would be a powerful person if he had personal responsibility if he cleaned the bathroom, but he doesn’t. I want to always point out to women that makes him powerless. Lynea: Just trying to co-parent with him, I laugh about co-parenting because it’s nothing of the sort, but he’s still trying to shame me. He brings up things of the past, hints around that I’m a bad mom trying to get me back into that crazy making cycle. Anne: You’ll get stronger and stronger. So Lynea, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us about how to recover from betrayal trauma, today and share your story. We really appreciate it. Lynea: My pleasure. Thank you for all that you do. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast **Tags:** emotional abuse --- ### [Do Good Men Exist? Truths Every Single Woman Will Appreciate](https://www.btr.org/do-good-men-exist/) **Published:** June 6, 2023 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** If you're worried about being single because good men seem impossible to find, you'll relate to this. **Content:** If you’re thinking about divorce or recently divorced, you may wonder, “Do good men exist?” Here’s what to consider if you’re worried about being single. To learn more about emotional abuse, before you consider dating again, take our [free emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ![Do Good Men Exist](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Do-Good-Men-Exist.webp "Do Good Men Exist")## Transcript: Do Good Men Exist? **Anne:** I’m more than excited to have my friend Gretchen Baskerville on today’s episode. She’s a Christian living in the Los Angeles area. She’s been doing Christian divorce recovery ministry in churches since 1998. She hears many, many heartbreaking stories of betrayal and abuse, as you can imagine. We’re talking about do good men exist. [And from her experience, she’s found that many Christian women married serial cheaters. Or men who are cheating or physically or emotionally abusive. These women tend to try to fix their marriage. They pray, they forgive, they go to counseling. One of the reasons is because they want to be married they are wondering if any good men even exist.](https://www.btr.org/when-biblical-submission-becomes-abuse/) They think I better make it work with this guy. They’re terrified to be single. Because I don’t want to be single, and it’s going to be too hard for me to find a good man. At the end, we’re going to address the question, do good men exist? And we’re going to start by talking about a different way to reframe being single. Welcome Gretchen. **Gretchen:** It’s so great to be with you again, Anne. ![Why You Don't Need A Good Man](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Why-You-Dont-Need-A-Good-Man.webp "Why You Dont Need a Good Man")**Anne:** [Lately, when people say God hates divorce, or when I hear that statement, I think of you. And then I say, God loves divorce. And I just come back at them with that and say, what are you talking about? God loves divorce because he loves me. And it set me free. Divorce delivered me from wickedness. It delivered me from abuse. And I’m grateful to be divorced, and actually proud of it.](https://www.btr.org/leave-my-emotionally-abusive-husband/) **Gretchen:** You just said how happy you were to be divorced. ## The Hard Decision Of Divorce & Myths **Gretchen:** And I truly look back now, 25 years later and say, divorce is the hardest decision I ever made. But it was also one of the best decisions I’ve ever made. And because we as Christians, as people of devout faith, we take marriage very, very seriously. We don’t believe in I’m bored divorces or I miss the party life divorces. We hang in there. And we hang in there oftentimes longer than is good for us and for our children. As a devout person of faith. I am against frivolous divorce, but I am 100% in favor of life saving divorces because it saves the life of parents and children. So let’s jump into those myths. I think the first myth, especially as a person of faith, at least in my upbringing, was you’re really nothing without a husband. After going through trauma you may wonder, do good men exist? You don’t have an identity without a man. For those biblically oriented, I would say there are plenty of women who are heroines in their own right in the Bible. So, for example, Ruth is already a heroine before meeting Boaz. ![Do Good Men Even Exist](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Do-Good-Men-Even-Exist.webp "Do Good Men Even Exist")Deborah, Abigail, Dorcas, look at the midwives in the story of Moses’ birth. I mean, they were amazing. They stood against the great pharaoh of Egypt. As I came through this, and of course the first two years of divorce, my life was just topsy turvy. I just didn’t know which way was up. I was really numb for the first six months. And I started reading single women’s missionary biographies. I know that sounds crazy, I’m sure you’ve got some on your reading list. ## Societal Pressures & Misconceptions **Gretchen:** They were so inspiring to me, because here are these women who go to some foreign country and are virtually alone. They have very little support, and because they’re not married, they don’t fit into any society. And yet they do amazing things. I soaked myself in these kinds of stories. I realized, God called plenty of women to do great things. And God didn’t call us to stay in these marriages to enable sin, cover up sin, pretend sin didn’t exist, what you call wickedness. He didn’t call us to bring up our children in a wicked home. My first myth is that you’re nothing without a husband. I think it’s just false, because the Lord uses people wherever they are. and he empowers and strengthens. He didn’t put us on this planet to cover up sin. **Anne:** I did not marry until I turned 30, almost 31. I’ve only been married once, and I remember vividly right after high school, I worked at a video store. A woman from my church came in. And she said, Oh, who are you dating? I said, I’m not dating anybody right now. And she said, Oh, I’m so sorry. You don’t have a life. ![Are There Even Any Good Men](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Are-There-Even-Any-Good-Men.webp "Are There Even Any Good Men")**Gretchen:** Oh my. **Anne:** And I remember thinking, I’m going to graduate from college. What are you talking about? That I don’t have a life. I have friends. I have interests. Am I literally nothing to you? Because I don’t have a boyfriend? And that idea that women aren’t anything, if they don’t have someone to define them, is crazy. Women can do amazing things, all by themselves. So let’s look at the second myth. ## Do Good Men Exist? Build Freindship With The Good People Already In Your Life **Gretchen:** All right, this one’s embarrassing to me. That women’s friends in your twenties are just placekeepers until you find a man, your soulmate. Women friends aren’t all that valuable. They’re disposable. I’m embarrassed to tell you that in my upbringing, marriage was promoted so much that this is the direction it went. Nobody actually taught this verbally. This was never spoken, always unspoken. Wow, was I wrong! So I got divorced in 1996, and in 1998 at my church, I met in one of the Sunday school classes, a woman who was raising four kids by herself with almost no child support. I had two kids, and I was completely in awe of her. It was difficult for them. They had this old clunker car and a shabby tiny little apartment. But they had love, safety and acceptance, and we got to be best friends. Every Saturday, we would walk down the street together for an hour at the beach. We live near the coast in Los Angeles area. She was an introvert and I was an extrovert. So we just made sure that we each got about 30 minutes to share. Then we prayed for each other at the end of our walk. And together, we started a group for other single mothers in our church. And this small group was absolutely fantastic. We were supporting each other, not worrying about, do good men exist. ![Are There Good Men](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Are-There-Good-Men.webp "Are There Good Men")I have never seen so many strong, courageous women knocking it out of the ballpark every day. We had teachers, a swim coach, a small business owner, a childcare provider, a paralegal, a homeschool mother, a manicurist and a disabled woman. We were all proud survivors, and our own community. If you feel the need for support, join [Betrayal Trauma Recovery’s Group Sessions. ](https://www.btr.org/group/) ## Closeness Of Caring **Gretchen:** We were like heroines to each other, and we shared our hope and our experience with one another and prayed for one another. Sometimes we helped each other financially. And when you do that week after week for years, you realize that this is the best group you’ve ever been in. Whether Bible study or church, small group or adult education, it is absolutely so powerful. There was so much emotional closeness and caring, and women would come to our group from other churches. They’d come to our group and cry for the first three weeks. And then they would sense the Lord’s presence, and they would start to feel that hope and faith. There is something special about the dynamic of women friends when there’re no men around. First, there’s no sexuality to motivate you or cover up one another’s slights. ![In Order To Heal From Emotional Abuse, You MUST Have This](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/lc2hcxe1ZKU/maxresdefault.jpg) We have to put in effort to keep our women friends. We have to learn to behave well. And have to learn to take turns paying for coffee. We have to learn to hold up our end of the friendship.Those are such wonderful, maturing character traits to learn. As you can imagine, when you’ve done that for 15 years with an amazing close cadre of women. When you start dating again, I started comparing all the men to these close girlfriends, I kept wondering if good men even exist. You know, probably like you’ve experienced, most of them couldn’t hold a candle to my girlfriends. I mean, they didn’t have authenticity. They didn’t have integrity. They weren’t as financially responsible as my single mom friends. And so it was pretty easy to identify and ditch the losers, because I had the loving warm community around me. ## The Impact Of Abusive Relationships On Friendships **Gretchen:** And I think that’s one of the most powerful things, and this is something that anyone can do in their own church or ward. They can start a group like this. It just becomes wonderful. It’s easiest to start it at the same time other groups are going on at the church. So there’s free childcare, but this becomes an amazing place for fellowship. **Anne:** And for those introverts out there that are like me, who might not want to like start a group. Because that feels overwhelming, just making one friend to go for a walk or doing something with the friend regularly, can help. **Gretchen:** um, **Anne:** And that’s also a good place to start. It feels like when women find our [community](https://www.btr.org/group/). Their abusive spouses think like, Oh, they’re a bad influence on you, right? Because they start setting boundaries. They start being more healthy. And start maybe doing more self care, and then the abuser doesn’t have as much control. And so that feels uncomfortable to him, and he tries to undermine it. Abusive men would also likely try to undermine women’s friendships with other women. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) **Gretchen:**[ I mean, in my church, we definitely learned that your marriage relationship would be the be all to end all. Even though it sounds ridiculous to say it out loud right now, that person was your full emotional support. Husbands supposedly supported you spiritually. They were supposed to be everything. If you told a woman today, your sister should be everything to you, the one person in your life, who’s your all in all. You’d go, you’re nuts.](https://www.btr.org/effects-of-spiritual-abuse/) ## Do Good Men Exist? Abuse Of The Marriage & Trust **Gretchen:** At least in my church, the unspoken message is, if you’re a godly woman and have done your best to be a radiant virgin bride on your wedding day. That you’re going to get this incredible, emotionally intimate, connected spouse. This husband, and you’re going to have a mind blowing love life. Teachers taught this. It’s a form of what I would call prosperity gospel. If you’re good, you’ll get a good man. If you’ve got some secret sin or you’re covering up something, well, then you’re going to get someone bad. But I mean, I don’t know how you could be more of a goody two shoes than I was as a kid. I wasn’t perfect. Obviously nobody’s perfect. But man, I got in trouble for staying up till midnight reading my Bible, okay? I was part of youth groups, youth choir, and everything. And all my friends were Christians. And yet I married someone with serious, serious character issues. I know you talk about those kinds of things all day long, so we won’t go into that. In my case, it wasn’t so much abuse, as it was immorality, covert, chronic, scary and illegal. **Anne:** Which is, by the way, abuse. **Gretchen:** Yes, yes it is. **Anne:** Criminal sexual behavior is abuse, they’re a registered offender and abuser. The emotional abuse, psychological abuse, lying, gaslighting and all that is all occurring. Here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, infidelity is abuse. They’re abusing the relationship. They’re abusing the marriage and your trust. **Gretchen:** Any kind of betrayal is abuse, emotional abuse. **Anne:** Yeah. ## Gratitude For Girlfriends **Gretchen:** And when you’re always wondering what’s going on with that other person, because they live a completely separate second life, a hidden secret life. Yep. I mean, you never know when the other shoe will drop. I worried, you know, will my name be on the front page of the Los Angeles Times? This is awful stuff. So yeah, it’s definitely abusive. I agree with you. **Anne:** Yeah, I am so grateful for my girlfriends. Girlfriends that I made in my late twenties when I was single. And are still my best friends today, who have stuck with me. They have been my support and strength. And also, my sister and my mom have been an amazing support system to me. I’m grateful that I had time in my twenties to develop that. So many women, especially women of faith, are married early. And so when they find themselves divorced, they haven’t had that experience of maybe making adult women friends. And so instead of being like, I don’t know how to do that. If we have that growth mindset to say, I have the opportunity to do that now. You’ll find real, true, emotional intimacy. And platonic love with your girlfriends, and it’s really, really amazing. **Gretchen:** It is really something. My family raised me in a very devout conservative family. I thought divorce was like the worst possible thing that could happen to me. Even though I had valid grounds, it somehow reflected and told the world that I lacked personal maturity or spiritual maturity. So I was pretty eager. ## The Reality Of Post-Divorce Life **Gretchen:** Straight out of my divorce, you know, I thought, Oh my goodness. I hope I remarry fast. I wasn’t as far along as you are, Anne. Looking back now. I’ll be vulnerable and honest. If you had told me I would be single for three years, I might not have filed for divorce. If you told me I’d be single for five years. I would curl up on the floor in fetal position, sucking my thumb. And I ended up divorced, a single mom for 20 years. And I’ve got to tell you. The Lord just completely rebuilt my life. He restored the years, the locust ate. It took me a while to get back to my normal level of happiness. And then I went through a lot of court abuse. There was a lot of post separation abuse from my ex-husband. 10 years of my husband dragging me into court over and over, with him wanting joint custody. And me saying, you know, over my dead body. I wanted to build my life on my own and not worry about finding a good man. What I found is that as the Lord carried me through each day, every 24 hours, I was still alive. I did not always get the answers to prayer I wanted. God often answered later than I wanted him to answer. And he didn’t give me the answer I wanted. Looking back, I see that it was what was best for me. It wasn’t what my church had told me was the ideal situation. I can honestly say at year five, I was happier than I had ever been in my life. That’s year five after separation. ## Do I Need A Good Man: Contentment In Singleness **Gretchen:** And by year seven, I had completely rebuilt my financial stability. And that felt great. It felt great to store away money for retirement. And feel like, you know what, even if I never remarry, there are many women who don’t ever want to remarry. A survey done a few years back showed that four in 10 were absolutely sure they did not want to remarry. And I found myself getting very, very content, and really even enjoying my singleness, and wondering if I could adjust to the constriction of my friendships, if I ever remarried. **Anne:** Yeah, I was single. until 31. Then police arrested my ex when I was 37 and my youngest was 11 months old. **Gretchen:** Oh, wow. **Anne:** And now I’m 44. So since 20, that’s 24 years, I’ve only been married for seven of those. Singleness is familiar to me, and I enjoy it. But post divorce, the first, two, three, four years are really hard. Even though I was happy to be divorced and proud that I was divorced, and for surviving what I had been through. It was about year five, six, seven that I started to feel like, Oh, this feels good. So I don’t want to misrepresent this. And say like, once you divorce, everything will be amazing immediately. You have to rebuild your life, and it takes time, but there is a light at the end of the tunnel. And you will be okay whether or not you know, find a good man. **Gretchen:** The idea that all your problems will disappear, you know, two to three years after your divorce. No, that’s just not going to happen. What I tell people is that you’ll return to your normal level of happiness within two to three years. ## The Importance Of Prayer & Faith **Gretchen:** I’m a person who was dragged into court for the next ten years, and I can tell you I was on my knees in prayer. I asked people to pray for me. I was frightened, I had insomnia, all kinds of things just begging the Lord. Please affect the mind and heart of the judge. You know, I need help here. I can’t have shared custody with this man. So, when I say that by year five, I was happy, that doesn’t mean my external circumstances had all resolved themselves. But there’s something about watching the Lord rescue you day after day, week after week, month after month, that you start to realize, okay, he’s got my back. And that’s really important. **Anne:** I relate so much. I went through that exact same thing for eight years post divorce, and was praying and praying. And the Lord led me to the strategies I now teach in [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). And they helped me so much. Of course, I had to get them into a workshop once I learned them and once they delivered me. It was a miracle to see that come together. I was doing great independently, not worried about finding a good man. I was shocked that my prayers had been answered, but also not shocked, because I had been praying for it for so long. And even though I give all the credit to God, I feel like those strategies he gave me apply no matter what your situation. Because they’re not specific to whether you’re married or divorced, they’re not specific to what he’s doing. They’re principles and strategies that can be applied in any situation. ## The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop **Anne:** Really quick, you said something, you’ll get back to your normal level of happiness. I want to acknowledge that there are women in our community who perhaps married at 18 or 20. They didn’t have the opportunity to even explore that before they married their abuser. And then for the next, maybe 10, 15, 20 or 30 years , they were being abused continually. And so they might think, what is my normal level of happiness? I don’t even know who I am. I don’t know what I’m doing. It’s also an opportunity to not just go back to your “normal” level of happiness. But also decide who you want to be and the kind of life you want to live, and start working toward that. There are exercises to help you do that in The Living Free Workshop. I wanted to include healing exercises in the workshop to help women move forward. You can get more information about [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) by clicking on this link. It’s so hopeful that you can build the life you want with or without a good man. **Gretchen:** It’s absolutely fantastic. One of the little things that really, made me feel alive was learning how to fix basic things around the house by watching YouTube videos. Wow, I believed fixing things was a man’s job, and that makes you feel helpless. The first time you watch a basic YouTube video on how to change the flapper on a toilet. And you do it yourself, and you go, wow. I mean, I’d have to watch these YouTube videos like five times. Okay. I’m ready. I’m ready, I’m going to do it. But the sense of accomplishment you get standing on your own two feet is priceless. ## Do Good Men Exist? Overcoming Myths & Misconceptions **Gretchen:** There are so many myths that we get in our religious communities. If you’re divorced and haven’t remarried, you must be spiritually lacking. You must have some secret sin, or maybe you’re not mature. Another big myth that I see in churches is that if you divorce, you’re going to bring your problems into the next marriage. And it’s going to fail too. Which is an ugly, ugly thing to say. And it totally ignores the fact that you weren’t the cheater, you weren’t the abuser, you weren’t the addict, and you’re not bringing them into your next marriage. Another one is that if you were just godly and prayed. **Anne:** As if you’ve never prayed about it ever. Then they tell you the story of the night they prayed to find their righteous husband. And the next day they met them at the dance. And because they had that experience, they assume the reason you’re single is because you don’t talk to God, apparently. You have just been surviving, not looking for men to rescue you. **Gretchen:** Yeah, it’s offensive that they would, assume that about us. You know, obviously you did something wrong. That’s the automatic knee jerk reaction. **Anne:** You either did something wrong or you haven’t done the right thing. **Gretchen:** Yes, okay, omission or commission, exactly. At any rate, you could have fixed this had you just done something different. And you know, life isn’t that way. I mean, the rain falls on the just and the unjust. Some of the most evil people have had these charmed lives. You know, it just doesn’t work that way. ## The Role Of Self-Examination & Boundaries **Gretchen:** If you did a lot of self examination and turned yourself inside out. And tried to find that secret sin and uncovered it, that God suddenly brought you the love of your life. Another one is that you’re being punished for something. And that’s rarely spoken. That’s kind of just this undercurrent that you’re being punished. I’ve found women who maybe slept with their high school boyfriend one time, and then they ended up marrying an abuser and felt like, okay, this is God’s punishment. I deserve it, and I have to stay in this. And then I’ll never, ever find a good man to marry. **Anne:** Even that they slept with their abuser before they were married, and their punishment is then that they have to be married to them forever. **Gretchen:** Yes, yes, yes, I hear that a lot too. I slept with him, so I had to marry him. **Anne:** I didn’t feel right about it and I’ve been trying to work it out ever since. He’s been abusive ever since. if you’re Christian, Christ came to deliver you. He came to save you. So if you made that mistake of sleeping with your abuser, and you feel like you have to stay married to him, that’s not what Christ would say. He would say, I came to redeem you, save you, and to deliver you. **Gretchen:** When we actually look at the life of Christ. It’s a whole different ballgame than some of these covert messages we’re getting from our spiritual communities. So for example, Luke 13, I call Luke 13 my favorite divorce story with Jesus, except for it doesn’t mention divorce anywhere. ## Christ’s Teachings On Deliverance **Gretchen:** So Jesus is in the synagogue, and he sees a woman who has been disabled by an evil spirit for 18 years. And she’s hunched over, and he calls out to her. It’s the Sabbath and says, come and be healed. She takes the step. Now, she knows that the synagogue leaders are not gonna like this, but she is courageous, and she takes the step toward Jesus. And He heals her. Oh my goodness, the synagogue leaders go nuts. They say there are six days a week that you can heal people, but that’s work. This is the Sabbath. You can’t work on the Sabbath. And they tell the rest of the crowds of disabled people to go away, and Jesus is having nothing of this. This is Luke 13 again, and he says, you guys on the Sabbath, you take your donkeys and your oxen and water them. You treat them well on the Sabbath. This woman is a daughter of Abraham, and you’re treating her worse than a donkey. She is a precious daughter. Jesus isn’t having any of this sanctimoniousness. He came to release us from evil and deliver us from evil. And that’s, the prayer many of us pray regularly. Are we going to take that prayer seriously? Do we want the Lord to deliver us from evil? Yes, that’s what he came to do. **Anne:** Yeah, so you were mentioning things like trying to find your own secret sin, trying to make yourself perfect. For the agnostic or secular women who are listening, thank you for listening as we share stories from our own faiths. Your goodness should exist for your own self not just for a good man. ## Do Good Men Exist? Secular Myths About Singleness **Anne:** Some secular myths might be like, you need to work out more. Or if you were fun, or if you were easier to talk to, maybe you’d be married. My dad was ridiculous when I was in my twenties, and he always said things. Like, well, maybe if you made them a basket of brownies and wrote a nice note. Did you say at the end of the date, I had a good time? I enjoyed your company. I would like to go out with you again. And I’m like, Dad, there’s not some formulaic thing, and if you do these steps, you will get married. Also, I’m not married, because I’m not doing some certain thing. We’ve all met women who are socially awkward. I might be one of them. Or they might not be “the most attractive” or something like that. Who have loving husbands. Who have good relationships with non-abusive men. Do good men exist? Yes, but you don’t have to be perfect. When people say, well, you’ve got to put your best foot forward, **Gretchen:** Right, right. **Anne:** I say, no, because I don’t want someone to fall in love with my foot. I want them to fall in love with me. So I’m just going to be myself. **Gretchen:** I love that. **Anne:** I would tell my dad, he would just shake his head and be like, oh, Anne is never going to get married. She just doesn’t get it. And so that was also, I think for me, an extra hard thing. That at 30 I get married, and it feels like this miracle to people, because they maybe thought I was never going to get married. Then to get divorced after that. ## Rejecting Stereotypes & Embracing Authenticity **Anne:** And be single again is like, oh, so she is meant to be single. Yes, and you know, what’s funny is I’m like, maybe I was, I enjoyed being single. It’s awesome. Like maybe that is God’s will for me. Maybe I operate the most happily in the world as a single person. **Gretchen:** Yeah, absolutely, because I think singleness has tremendous advantages. Just the freedom to do whatever you want to do, whenever you want to do it, is amazing. And the freedom to have friendships with such a wide variety of people. But I wanted to go back to what you said, where we have to feel like we have to fulfill this womanly mold. You know, like your dad’s saying, make the brownies, you just have to reject the myth that all men want this. All men want you to be feminine, sweet, and quiet, and a good cook and all that. And I thought, I’m sorry, that’s not me. I come from a car family, an automobile family, and I’ve always loved cars. I cried when my parents sold the first car I remember from childhood. And my father drove sports cars, not super expensive ones, but more like the little pocket rockets. And I knew what people were thinking. Good Christian men see a middle aged single woman driving her Corvette, and they don’t find that attractive. They don’t like women who are confident drivers. Or they might say, you know, good Christian men don’t want women who attract attention to themselves. And so there’s these messages that you can’t be you. ## Finding Love & Acceptance **Gretchen:** And I remarried at age 57. So I was single a long time. I was plump, I was opinionated. I was used to having authority over men, because I was a top executive in a company. And I had many men reporting directly to me. I just came to the point in my life where I’m not going to apologize for who I am. And lo and behold, a man came in my life with whom I had worked about 10 years before. And we liked each other, and he loved who I was. He loved having an outspoken, fast driving, girlfriend and wife. And we have had a lovely, lovely marriage for over five years now. **Anne:** That is wonderful. It’s interesting Gretchen, because people ask me. You get to know thousands of victims in all your work, women who have been abused by men. Because we only deal with that here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Do you just hate men, or do you see abuse in all men? And, the more I’ve learned about abuse, the more I’ve learned to recognize healthy behaviors. Actually, I have more hope now than ever. I have healthy men in my life now that I really appreciate. One of them is my uncle, who has helped me so much with so many things. I just talked with him yesterday, and we have such a good, sweet relationship. I appreciate my aunt, who I don’t talk to her often. And my relationship with my dad, brothers, even my dentist, colleagues, or my best friends husbands who are supportive of me. When I’m at their home having dinner, we get along well. Do good men exist? Yes they do. ## Do Good Men Exist? The Importance Of Safe Friendships **Anne:** They ask me how I’m doing, and I feel like I have a good relationship with them. So it’s been interesting to see how many healthy men there are, and how comfortable and peaceful I can feel. And how supported I can feel. It feels good to start there with friendships, because then I know more about what I’m looking for when it comes to dating when I choose to date. Like as we separate ourselves from abuse, we can also see the healthy behaviors in the men in our lives. **Gretchen:** Yes, you mentioned the uncle or a good friend’s husband, somebody very, very safe. I mean, I think we need to retrain our minds. When we’ve been hurt to realize that real men, good men, safe men, want mutual support, integrity, emotional honesty and closeness. They aren’t into seduction and manipulation, and love bombing. And, of course, there are people we can’t trust. There are men we can’t trust, and there are women we can’t trust. But in 20 years of having close friendships with safe men, I have been able to weed out the bad ones, and I never had any trouble with the good ones. And it’s based on having good boundaries and watching them. Okay, so a man with good boundaries is like this. A man who’s safe. A man who cares about my well-being, not just love bombing me, is like this. I worked in a male dominated industry, so men surrounded me all the time. Do good men exist? Yes, they proved to me year after year that there were many good men out there. Now, I will say that in 20 years, I did have two step over the line, and I immediately distanced myself from them. ## Healthy Men & Boundaries **Gretchen:** But I didn’t say, this is my fault for interacting with men, working with men, and confiding in men. This is that person’s problem. It’s not my problem. And I just moved away from them, stepped back. Just as we want to find good, healthy women, especially single moms, who are walking with integrity, courage and strength. At the same time, we know that they’re juggling fear, doubts and worries. The same thing goes for men. And, every good person we have in our life who is respectful and has good boundaries helps us develop self respect and good boundaries. **Anne:** Yeah, I’m thinking about addicts or abusers and how you could be friendly. And say, Hi, how are you doing? Just as a regular person. And they tend to think that women flirt with them. **Gretchen:** Yeah. **Anne:** Right, good men do exist? I’ve noticed that healthy men could be like, hi, how are you doing? And they’re like, I’m fine. How are you? They don’t think you’re flirting with them. And they think you’re just having a regular conversation. They don’t assume everything is flirting or something’s going to happen. Because they’re secure in the relationship they have with their wife or their situation. And so they’re free to just see you as a person. And I want to tell one story of my best friend’s husband. He’s amazing. And the other day I was talking. And I said, the addiction industrial complex sometimes says things like, well women, you have to be safe enough. So that your husbands will tell you about their affair. ## Interacting With Healthy Men **Anne:** Or about their pornography use. And he just started laughing, and he was like, what? What are you talking about? Like, of course, they’re going to be angry. Does any man think like, Oh, she’s going to get angry, so I’m not going to tell her? His reaction was genuine, and it was so unfathomable to him that someone would think that. And that’s the type of stuff that we get all the time with abuse or people trying to enable abuse. Where it’s like, well, this is the reason he did it. Rather than thinking, there is no reason. It’s ridiculous, and it has nothing to do with you. The reason he didn’t tell you about his affair was because he was trying to protect himself and keep having the affair. It wasn’t because he was worried about hurting your feelings. So, interacting with good men sort of helps you see like, Oh, their reaction to this is different. Than the ten men my [husband hung out with that were all addicts](https://www.btr.org/marriage-therapy-for-infidelity/). Who were telling each other how hard it was, that their secretary was coming on to them when she wasn’t at all. When she was just sitting there doing her work. **Gretchen:** Yes, only in their own mind. **Anne:** Exactly, Gretchen, thank you so much for coming on today’s episode. **Gretchen:** It has been a real pleasure, Anne. Thank you so much for having me. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Utah Boy Killed By His Abusive Father on Mother's Day Weekend](https://www.btr.org/sixteen-year-old-utah-boy-is-killed/) **Published:** December 18, 2024 **Author:** Anne **Content:** ## **WHILE HIS MOM ADVOCATED FOR THE *KEEPING CHILDREN SAFE FROM FAMILY VIOLENCE ACT* … TO KEEP HIS SAFE** > ***“Family court professionals did not act in time nor in the best interest of the child to keep him safe from a clearly dangerous parent.”*** On Friday May 12, a 49-year-old Salt Lake City father, Parth Gandhi,[ killed his 16-year-old son and then took his own life](https://kutv.com/news/local/investigation-finds-father-killed-16-year-old-son-in-office-complex-murder-suicide-parth-gandhi-highland-drive), according to authorities. The father was in a protracted family court child custody battle with the son’s mother. The mother, Leah Moses, alleged that Parth was violent and [abusive and she feared](https://www.btr.org/7-powerful-truths-about-emotional-abuse/) for her children’s safety. She had asked a family court Commissioner to keep the child safely with her. But the father was granted full custody of the boy despite substantiated allegations of domestic abuse against him. Leah tried to warn them about his problematic behavior involving his extensive substance abuse, accusations of sexual abuse, and exposing the children to pornography, according to court documents. ## “THE MOTHER WAS VIEWED WITH SUSPICION” > “Like thousands of other contested custody cases in family courts across the U.S., this protective mother in Utah had presented evidence to the court about the father’s abusive behaviors. She asked the court to keep her son safe by seeking full legal and physical custody to keep him in her care,” said Danielle Pollack, Policy Manager at the[ National Family Violence Law Center. ](https://www.law.gwu.edu/national-family-violence-law-center) Instead, the mother was viewed with suspicion. In custody litigation, Parth had accused Leah of “parental alienation,” a commonly invoked and unfortunately effective legal tactic of accused abusers in family court. [Studies](https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3448062) have shown and the UN Human Rights Council is bringing attention to as an international problem. ## “MY SON’S DEATH WAS PREVENTABLE” > “As often happens, family court professionals lack adequate training or clinical experience in domestic violence, child sexual abuse, and trauma, and can sometimes be easily misled by charismatic abusers. They are often unable to identify when a parent is a perpetrator. They have trouble understanding why a protective parent is trying to keep her kids safe once she leaves an abusive home, just as Leah had,” added Pollack. > Leah said: “My son Om’s death was preventable. The family court system professionals ignored my pleas for help to keep my son safe. My son’s father persuaded everyone I was the problem, when in fact I was just trying to protect my child. I never want this to happen to another family, to another child. If the courts would listen to and believe survivors, this nightmare could stop.” ![Son Murdered by His Father After His Mother Tried to Keep Him Safe for Years](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/IMG_6914-768x1024.jpeg "Om Moses gandhi Murdered in")###### *The Utah boy, Om, who was court ordered into the custody of his abusive father, who killed him on Mother’s Day weekend.* ## “THE CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST … RECOGNIZED LEAH AS A VICTIM OF ABUSE” Domestic violence advocates do not recommend that victims participate in therapy or co-parenting classes with abusers, as the abuser is likely to continue their abuse through such programs. Despite that, Leah was court ordered to take a high-conflict parenting class with the children’s father. The clinical psychologist running the class identified Leah as a victim of abuse, and accordingly, decided to counsel her privately, but then Leah was again [court ordered to family therapy with the abuser](https://www.btr.org/covert-emotional-abuse/) who she says had raped her repeatedly. Despite this, Parth maintained custody of Om. > Dr. Candice Smith, Layton Hospital Department Chair of Pediatrics and Member of Utah Medical Association Board of Delegates*,* is all too familiar with cases like this. “Pediatricians in the State of Utah are becoming more and more frustrated with our inability to keep children safe from maltreatment due to court ordered parenting time with an abuser.” According to Pollack, this sentiment is expressed by pediatricians around the country who see these cases and feel helpless to protect children from abuse in the face of court orders. ## KAYDEN’S LAW This Utah filicide follows on the heels of two recent notorious Utah family court cases one where an [abusive father **killed his wife, five children and mother-in-law after the mother,** Tausha Haight, had filed for divorce](https://www.today.com/news/utah-haight-family-killed-rcna64555) and another where two siblings who had been sexually abused by their father [barricaded themselves in their room to avoid the court order to be in their abusive father’s custody](https://www.propublica.org/article/parental-alienation-utah-livestream-judge). Late in 2022, Leah, Dr. Candice Smith, and [Anne Blythe of BTR.ORG](https://www.btr.org) met with Utah Senator Todd Weiler to ask him to sponsor a state version of the federal [*Keeping Children Safe From Family Violence Act*](https://www.nationalsafeparents.org/kaydens-law.html) in Utah. He agreed to lead the effort. Senator Weiler said that passing this law would provide Utah with much needed federal funding to better educate court professionals, so they can better protect abused children in custody cases. It would also improve how courts handle custody cases with abuse allegations. The federal law is referred to as Kayden’s Law, named after another child who was murdered by an abusive father during his court ordered custody time in Pennsylvania. Leah also brought the *Keeping Children Safe From Family Violence Act* to the attention of the Utah Domestic Violence Coalition, where she is a board member. She is hoping the law will gain traction and be passed in Utah during the upcoming legislative session. In February of this year, she took part in a demonstration at the Utah State Capitol with [Tina Swithin of One Mom’s Battle](https://www.onemomsbattle.com/) and [Anne Blythe of BTR.ORG](https://www.btr.org) calling for the adoption of the protective law, holding a sign which read “Children’s Rights are Human Rights.” ![Leah Moses Advocating to Keep Children Safe February](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Screenshot-2023-05-19-at-42021-PM-584x1024.png "Leah Moses Keeping Children Safe from Family Violence")###### *Leah demonstrating with other advocates, including family members of Ty and Brynlee Larson, One Mom’s Battle, BTR.ORG, and the National Safe Parents Organization, at the Utah State Capitol on February 17, 2023, calling for Utah to adopt the Keeping Children Safe From Family Violence Act, also known as “Kayden’s Law.”* ###### ***Twelve weeks later Leah’s son was murdered.*** “Had the court professionals my son was subjected to been educated about abuse and family violence dynamics and acted in his best interest, Om would likely still be alive,” Leah said. ![](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Screen-Shot-2023-05-19-at-123227-PM-1024x770.png "Screen Shot at Pm")###### *Leah and Om sharing a mother-son moment in New York City in 2022.* ## “COURT PROFESSIONALS DID NOT ACT IN TIME” After battling for her child’s safety for over 14 years, presenting evidence in court and enduring legal and other abuse by Parth, Leah saw a glimmer of hope when a custody evaluator finally made a recommendation to give Leah full custody of Om. Leah said, “When I received that custody recommendation I was relieved and hopeful that the court would act quickly to ensure that Om could escape the violence he’d been subjected to at the hands of his father. Would he finally be allowed to live in a safe and healthy environment? Instead, three and half weeks later, he was murdered.” Tragically, court professionals did not act in time. Instead of celebrating his upcoming seventeenth birthday, young Om, a bright student and talented musician, who was loving and protective to his mother and sister, will be laid to rest in the coming days. ![](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Screen-Shot-2023-05-19-at-110445-AM.png "Screen Shot at Am")###### *Leah with Om and her daughter on the day she graduated. Leah began divorce proceedings in 2009, but due to Parth’s legal abuse, the divorce wasn’t final until 2014. Three years later in May 2017, Leah graduated as a midwife with a Master of Science from Columbia University in the City of New York.* *\*Court professionals who were tasked with evaluating and keeping the boy safe from abuse have not responded to our requests for comment.* ## [*NATIONAL SAFE PARENTS ORGANIZATION*](https://www.nationalsafeparents.org/) *We are a national coalition of more than 100,000 survivor parents and concerned citizens in the United States advocating for evidence-based policies which put child safety and risks at the forefront of child custody decisions.* *​We believe it is a child’s human right to live free from abuse and that child safety, which is implicit in the law, must be made the top priority in practice, in all private custody decision-making.* *We at NSPO work with similar national groups across the globe, all contending with similar problems to those we see in the U.S.: Court’s resistance to taking safety risks and abuse to a child seriously in the context of child access decisions.* *If you are interested in helping to pass the Keeping Children Safe from Family Violence Act in your state, contact Danielle Pollack at <dpollack@law.gwu.edu>* **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma --- ### [5 Ways To Spot Narcissistic Abuse in Marriage](https://www.btr.org/narcissistic-abuse/) **Published:** December 31, 2024 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** These 5 signs will help you know if you're a victim of narcissistic abuse. **Content:** If you’re experiencing narcissistic abuse, know that you’re not alone. ## HOW TO SPOT YOUR HUSBAND’S NARCISSISTIC ABUSE: ### 1. HE MAKES HARMFUL CHOICES SEEM LIKE “ACCIDENTS” One early sign of narcissistic abuse is when your husband does something hurtful, suspicious, or confusing, then acts like it was just an accident. Maybe he “accidentally” sends a message to the wrong person. Maybe he “accidentally” leaves out key details. And then he makes you feel unreasonable one for asking questions. ### 2. HE LIES WHEN SOMETHING FEELS OFF Another sign of narcissistic abuse is that when something doesn’t add up, you can’t quite get a straight answer. When you bring it up, he may: - Minimize your concern - Reassure you just enough to calm you down - Make promises about the future - Shift the focus to his stress, pain, or needs You might leave the conversation thinking, *maybe it’s not that bad… maybe I overreacted.* ### 3. HE ISOLATES YOU FROM PEOPLE WHO CARE ABOUT YOU Narcissistic abuse often creates isolation. You may stop sharing the truth because you feel embarrassed, ashamed, or afraid of what people will think. ### 4. HE FUTURE FAKES TO KEEP YOU INVESTED Future faking is when he promises a better future to keep you attached in the present. He might say: - “Things will be different soon.” - “After this job changes, I’ll be more available.” - “Once we get married, I’ll be more committed.” - “When we buy the house, everything will calm down.” - “I’m going to change.” That’s one of the cruelest parts of narcissistic abuse. He gives you just enough hope to make you think you’re moving toward something good. ### 5. HE GIVES STRANGE, SPECIFIC DENIALS One major sign of narcissistic abuse is when your husband denies something in a weirdly specific way. Not just, “I didn’t cheat.” But something oddly detailed. Something you didn’t even ask. When a husband offers strangely detailed denials, it may be because he’s trying to cover the exact truth. ### NARCISSISTIC ABUSE MAKES YOU BLAME YOURSELF One of the most painful parts of narcissistic abuse is that you may start believing his behavior is your fault. But it’s not. Narcissistic abuse works by keeping you focused on fixing yourself while he keeps hiding what he’s doing. ## NARCISSISTIC ABUSE IN MARRIAGE IS NOT NORMAL CONFLICT Normal marriage conflict involves two people who are honest, accountable, and willing to repair harm. Narcissistic abuse is different. It’s when *he* uses deception, manipulation, blame-shifting, secrecy, coercion, and control. These are common emotional abuse tactics. To see if he’s using any one of the 19 different tactics, take my free [emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). That’s why couples therapy can make things worse. If he lies to you, he’ll keep lying to you in therapy. ## YOU CAN LEARN TO SPOT NARCISSISTIC ABUSE If your husband’s behavior keeps leaving you confused, anxious, isolated, ashamed, or responsible for problems you didn’t create, it may be time to look at the pattern. If you relate and need support, attend a [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session](https://www.btr.org/group/) today. ![Ways to Spot Narcissistic Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Ways-To-Spot-Narcissistic-Abuse.webp "Ways to Spot Narcissistic Abuse")## TRANSCRIPT: 5 WAYS TO SPOT NARCISSISTIC ABUSE **Anne:** I have Rachel and Megan Wilford on today’s episode. They are cousins, and they also recently started podcasting and their podcast is called the Traumedy Show. Which is of course, a mix of trauma and comedy. Welcome Rachel and Megan. **Rachel:** Thank you so much for having us. We’re so excited to be here with you. **Megan:** Thank you. ## NARCISSISTIC ABUSE: DISCOVERING A SECRET LIFE **Anne:** When I first found out that my husband was using explicit material, and that he had this secret life that I didn’t know about, we just had a baby. I think if I had not had children, then my life would have taken kind of a different turn at that point. But because I had a child. Also because he was saying, “I’m going to go to a pornography addiction recovery.” I thought okay, I’ll try and work this out because we’ve got a kid. ![Watch out for These Signs of Narcissistic Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Watch-Out-for-Signs-of-Narcissistic-Abuse.webp "Watch out for Signs of Narcissistic Abuse")## COMEDY AS A COPING MECHANISM FOR NARCISSISTIC ABUSE **Anne:** Anyway, instead of, starting podcasting about that at that time, I actually started a comedy blog called Coming To Grips. I got a lot of followers, which was fun, but I never wrote about what was actually happening. So I was processing my pain through the lens of comedy. I think a lot of comedians do that. I’ve since pulled it from the internet. When my book comes out, I will be simultaneously publishing my comedy blog. So people can kind of read them side by side, to be like, okay, this is what was really happening. And then this is how she was kind of…. **Anne:** This is the public face that I was showing online. I was telling people in person, but I wasn’t really publishing online about it. **Megan:** Processing it. ![What Does Narcissistic Abuse Look Like](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-Signs-Indicate-You-Are-A-Victim-of-Narcissistic-Abuse.webp "What Signs Indicate You Are a Victim of Narcissistic Abuse")## THE TRAUMEDY SHOW CAME OUT OF NARCISSISTIC ABUSE **Rachel:** I love what you just shared about using comedy to process what you were going through. Because that’s what we do too. I think we would say that we come from a family of traumedians. We have a big family and we all lean into dark humor and laugh a lot. We’re a bunch of jokesters. When my life started blowing up, I definitely was leaning into comedy about it pretty quickly. The day that I left my ex-fiance, I started dreaming about what I could do with my whole story. Coming up with one liners about it. I was thinking about like a standup comedy set, just dreaming big. Then I ended up getting into another relationship in the winter. About six months after, that also imploded in a similar way. And for about a week after that relationship ended, I was in this really crazy creative processing mode. Where I was writing all the time and I was so mad and all these words were coming to me. ![After Detecting Narcissistic Abuse How Do You Recover](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Narcissistic-Abuse-Might-Be-Hard-to-Detect.webp "Narcissistic Abuse Might Be Hard to Detect")Then all of a sudden I lost it. Like it was like a cord was cut and I started asking God, okay, where can I channel this now? So I started creating our podcast all day long, came up with the artwork, came up with the name. I invited Megan over and sat her down and pitched it to her and she was down for it. That’s how the podcast came to be. **Anne:** Let’s start with that. ## FIVE WAYS TO SPOT NARCISSISTIC ABUSE **Anne:** This episode is called Five Ways to Spot Narcissistic Abuse. So as Rachel tells her story, I’m going to flag the things that indicated, hey, this is a situation that is emotionally dangerous, that is psychologically dangerous. So I’ll be pointing those out as she shares her story. Can you start at the beginning? How did your relationship start? Did you recognize any red flags at first? **Rachel:** I would say that there were red flags from the beginning, but I started dating him really young. I was 17 and he was 20 and he was from my same hometown. We had never met before, but he friended me on Facebook. It was back in the day when everybody was just kind of friending everybody on Facebook. ![How to Discover if You're Being Abused By A Narcissist](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-Are-The-Ways-to-Detect-Narcissistic-Abuse.webp "What Are the Ways to Detect Narcissistic Abuse")But we quickly started talking and quickly started dating. I’m 29 now. I was with him for about 10 and a half years. Just as a spoiler alert, there’s two engagements in this story too, with him. Yeah, wait. **Anne:** Can’t wait. **Rachel:** Good. So, I would say pretty early on I started spotting lying and hiding things. ## 1ST SIGN OF NARCISSISTIC ABUSE: MAKING YOU THINK SOMETHING IS AN ACCIDENT **Rachel:** He pretty quickly put me and his ex in a group chat accidentally a couple of months into our relationship. **Anne:** “Accidentally?” Do you think it was on purpose now? **Rachel:** No. He had a lot of technological blunders over the course of our relationship. That kind of led to me finding things out and the demise of the whole thing. ![Signs to Discover if You're Being Abused By A Narcissist](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-Are-Signs-of-Narcissistic-Abuse.webp "What Are Five of the Signs of Narcissistic Abuse")**Anne:** Maybe that’s going to be number one red flag. I’m going to say here that they do things on purpose sometimes. And they make you think it’s an accident. That’s not your case, Rachel. Sorry, I’m not trying to be like, no, you don’t know what you’re talking about. That’s not what I’m trying to say. In your specific case it was an accident . But in general, they’re strangely the stupidest smart people or like the smart stupid people. Victims have a really hard time because they’re like, for how smart he is, why is he doing this? I want to just maybe throw out the idea that one of the things you can look for is that dissonance. When you’re like, wait, if they’re so smart, why are they doing this thing? In so many cases, it’s actually on purpose to throw people off, to get people confused. ## TEAMING UP WITH THE OTHER WOMAN **Rachel:** This girl on our podcast, I call her Natasha and there’s more to the story with her. But since our podcast came out, she actually came on and I interviewed her. She reached out to me and she and I are now friends 11 years later. It’s pretty awesome. There’s a lot of teaming up with the other woman that happened since our podcast. Yeah. So he puts Natasha and I in a group chat and so she and I have each other’s numbers. He sends a picture of him snowboarding and then a couple of months later, both to me and her. **Anne:** So is he intending to send it to both of you? Who did he intend to send it to? ![Five Ways to Spot Narcissistic Abuse](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZvQwP2Hzjfk/maxresdefault.jpg) **Rachel:** He was intending to send it to both of us, he didn’t have an iPhone. He had like a Windows phone. He didn’t realize that if you sent it in the same thread, it would go in a group chat at the time. A couple months later, it’s my 18th birthday and he cheats on me with her. He drives down to San Diego to pick her up from the airport. The next day on my 18th birthday, I get a text from her, since she now has my number, that he came down, picked her up and made a move on her. And they kissed, all this stuff. ## 2ND SIGN OF NARCISSISTIC ABUSE: I’M GOING TO GIVE HIM ANOTHER CHANCE **Rachel:** I end up breaking up with him at that time. Then I ended up getting back together with him a week later. I wish that I never had. Staying broken up when you are a victim of narcissistic abuse would’ve been better. **Anne:** This is a crossroads for you. What did he say to groom you to get back together with him? **Rachel:** Good question. **Anne:** Maybe this is another red flag. So number one, they do things on purpose when you think they do them accidentally. Number two, There’s a point at which you notice, hey, something really bad happened. But also I’m going to give him a second chance. ![How to Tell if You're Being Abused By A Narcissistic Husband](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Are-There-Ways-to-Spot-Narcissistic-Abuse.webp "Are There Ways to Spot Narcissistic Abuse")So many women have this story where they found out he was having an affair. Or they found out he was stealing money from them. Or they found out he’d hidden a camera in their bedroom or something like that. **Rachel:** Yeah, he definitely was kind of promising me that it was nothing. She just was somebody that needed help. It was nothing. They hadn’t been talking, but she had said that he’d been sending her pictures and stuff this whole time. Texting her and communicating. In that conversation, he did threaten suicide when he drove away. So I would say that you could think that maybe that’s a red flag too. ## FEELING STUCK & ISOLATED **Rachel:** So over the course of a week, I took some time apart and then I decided to give him another chance. You know, and this was 11 years ago now. I went off to college, the next year is my freshman year of college. So we were long distance and then something happened to me while I was there. That I, you know, haven’t shared publicly, but it bonded him and I. It made it hard for me to leave for a long time. I ended up coming home from college and went to community college and he ended up coming home too. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) We were both in our hometown again. I was working a job at Starbucks, going to school. I had an internship, and was very busy. Then I found out about a virtual affair he was having with an old friend of mine. I started noticing some suspicious behavior online. **Anne:** An old friend of yours. **Rachel:** Yes. **Anne:** But not an old friend of his? **Rachel:** No. An old friend of mine. Yep. **Anne:** And I’m guessing he met her the same way he met you through social media. ## WEIRD ONLINE BEHAVIOR CAN BE A SIGN OF NARCISSISTIC ABUSE **Rachel:** Yes, he told me that he met her because she worked at a restaurant in town. He went to pick up food and that was the first time that he met her. But he friended her on Facebook and Instagram and I started fishing around for information. Because I ran into her on campus one time, because she went to the same community college at the time and her behavior was super weird. I was noticing weird online behavior and so I went searching and found messages between the two of them. And that was devastating and embarrassing and a lot of shame for me. Especially because it was somebody from my life that I had known and we knew a lot of mutual people. I felt a lot of shame about that, but I felt really stuck and like I couldn’t leave. **Anne:** Were you living together? **Rachel:** We were not living together at that time. **Anne:** It’s his fault that you felt stuck. Not feeling like you were able to leave is a sign of narcissistic abuse. And we’re putting 100 percent of the fault on him. So this is not like a victim blaming question, but can you kind of explain that feeling of being stuck? The majority of our listeners share children with their abuser. And so in that way, it’s very difficult to extricate yourself. So those of us with kids, when we hear people who don’t have kids saying they feel stuck. We’re like thinking oh, what was it? But then I want all the listeners to think about when you stayed with him, when you didn’t have kids. Like when you got married, we also were stuck at some point. So to have empathy for that all around. ## BLAMING PROBLEMS ON SELF INSTEAD OF NARCISSISTIC ABUSE **Rachel:** Yeah, and I totally empathize with people that have kids. With their abuser, it’s really hard to break away. I’m fortunate that that wasn’t the case for me. There were a few reasons that I felt stuck. I think this event that bonded us really tied me to him. He was a big support system for me. I considered him my best friend. I think I really isolated myself during this time of my life and kind of removed myself from friendships. Because of this narcissistic abuse cycle that was going on with him. Because of this shame spiral that I was in from his infidelities. He was kind of my person at this time. Um, and also there was this sense of I just moved home with this person. We were kind of like starting this new chapter and journey together back home. I didn’t want it to all be for nothing. That I just left school and changed paths. I put a lot of the blame on myself because I had been depressed. Because of what had happened my freshman year of college. [He put some blame on me](https://www.btr.org/blamed-me-for-the-emotional-abuse/ "He put some blame on me too. ") too. At the time of what you weren’t giving me enough attention and whatever. This happens with narcissistic abuse. So this becomes a pattern for the next eight years of our relationship. This becomes a pattern of, I need to work on myself so that I can be better and he won’t do these things. This kind of is when I think this starts. **Anne:** It’s my fault, and if I were acting differently, he would not be acting like this way. This is a sign of narcissistic abuse, where you to think it’s your fault, when it’s not. ## FIRST ENGAGEMENT & FAMILY CONCERNS **Rachel:** Yeah, so a couple years goes by. And we get engaged the first time on a family trip to Machu Picchu. Actually of all places, he comes and he proposes to me on New Year’s Day. At this point I am 22 and I’m a senior in college. I’d been living down in San Diego, going to San Diego State for the past couple of years. I was about to graduate. We were looking at apartments. We were planning our wedding and getting ready to start life. At this point there hadn’t been any signs of infidelity in a couple of years. **Anne:** Is this with your family, like your parents and your brothers and sisters? Okay, how do they feel about him at this time? **Rachel:** My dad had actually had a chat with me, a couple of years prior, that he was worried. And didn’t think that this person was right for me. He saw some signs that definitely gave him pause. And I think my family accepted him, but they didn’t love him for me. For sure. **Anne:** What’s your feeling about your family feeling this way. Did it kind of accidentally bond you closer to him? Which it does with so many abusers. Because then it’s like well, it’s just you and me against the world sort of a feeling. **Rachel:** Absolutely. That’s a really good way to describe it. It made me protective. I would say of him too. And yeah, accidentally bonding me closer to him. This kind of like fierceness of like, we’ll prove them wrong kind of a thing. ## 3RD SIGN OF NARCISSISTIC ABUSE: ISOLATION **Anne:** Yeah. So we’re going to call that number three. When something happens where you start to pull away from healthy people that care about you. Because narcissistic abuse includes isolating you from your loved ones. **Rachel:** Oh yeah, I was definitely isolated. So we are planning this wedding. I’m about to graduate college and I graduate. And then all of a sudden his behavior starts getting really fishy and weird. He’s kind of just MIA all of a sudden. And one day I’m at his parents house with him. He goes to the bathroom. I look on his phone and there are texts with him and a coworker. He had at this point started an emotional affair, we’ll call this person Grace. I’m distraught. We are at this point, like four months away from our wedding. We start going to [couples counseling](https://www.btr.org/best-marriage-counseling-near-me-for-couples/) and all sorts of things. I’m trying to make it work. I’m trying to hold together this image for my family and friends that nothing’s wrong. Ultimately it blows up and we call off our wedding, but I tell no one the real reason why. ## THE DOWNFALL OF COUPLES THERAPY WITH NARCISSISTIC ABUSE **Anne:** When you started going to an [infidelity couples therapist ](/infidelity-couples-therapist/)(which we never recommend), but because you didn’t know it’s narcissistic abuse, did the therapist help you realize this is abuse? **Rachel:** No, it made it much worse. I think we only went to a few sessions before we really kind of broke away from each other for a bit. She was treating it like premarital counseling. An issue would come up in this session and we would kind of blow up about it. Then we would leave because the time was up. Then we would try to kind of resolve it ourselves afterwards. It would just make it so much worse. It just was this big snowball effect of things getting worse. Definitely the couple’s therapy exacerbated it for sure. **Anne:** It always does with narcissistic abuse. So it’s never, ever, ever recommended. But most couple therapists don’t know about it. If someone’s not coming in saying I’m being abused, then the couple therapist doesn’t hear that. They don’t help the victim identify it. And if they did, they would have to stop being their therapist. They have an invested interest in not identifying the narcissistic abuse for monetary interest. I’m like, don’t ever go to couples therapy. If your relationship is so bad that you need couples therapy. I’m like, 99 percent of the time there’s a narcissistic abuse issue. And you shouldn’t be going to couples therapy. **Rachel:** There’s twice that we go to the couples therapy and it ends up helping our relationship blow up. Which is what needed to happen for me personally. So we break up. ## TAKING THE BLAME & ANXIETY FROM NARCISSISTIC ABUSE **Rachel:** I tell no one the real reason why. I take all the blame because he was telling me at this time that I was selfish and I wasn’t giving him what he needed. He was questioning if we should get married. I took the fall and told literally not a single person about his emotional affair with Grace at this time. I got away from him for about a month. Then one day he comes knocking back on my door and it started the whole process over again. I’m a writer, I journal a lot. At the time I was writing a lot and this was summer of 2018. There’s a handful of pages from right when I break up with him. My mind is clear and I know I don’t deserve this. I’m pointing out so many issues with him. Then he comes knocking back on the door. The rest of the pages of that journal are just anxiety, so much anxiety. ## STARTING OVER & NEW RELATIONSHIPS **Rachel:** For the next year, I moved down into an apartment with a friend and kind of just start over. I was having anxiety and panic attacks all the time because he and I were still seeing each other. But there was no label. He was very secretive, very emotionally shut down. It was this battle of me kind of trying to get him to open back up. After a year of that, I end up starting to see someone else. At this time he and I weren’t seeing anybody else. Or so he told me, that he was just taking a break. He was taking time for himself. He needed to think about what was going on and just heal. I was doing the same thing, but then I met somebody. And so I asked for permission and I kind of start seeing this other person. ## CONFUSION & ANXIETY FROM NARCISSISTIC ABUSE **Anne:** You asked him for permission? **Rachel:** I did. I ask him if it’s okay if I pursue something with this other man. **Anne:** And he’s like, it’s fine. Even though you had no defined relationship, really. Are you kind of just friends at the time? Are you kissing him? **Rachel:** We were still like being physical. We were still going to dinner. It was acting like we were in a relationship, but a lot of the kind of emotional connection was removed on his part at that time. I couldn’t really figure out why. **Anne:** How often were you seeing him? **Rachel:** At least once a week. **Anne:** Once a week, but you’re not really serious. **Rachel:** So it was a lot of anxiety for me. **Anne:** Do you want it to be more? **Rachel:** Yes, yes, yes, I do. I want to figure it out. I’m dealing with the shame of my failed engagement and calling off the wedding. I had this whole picture for my life and I felt like this was my person. We just needed to figure this out and work through it. ## MOTIVATIONS FOR DATING SOMEONE NEW **Anne:** So what are your motivations for dating the other guy? While you’re still being physical with the wolf and seeing him once a week ? **Rachel:** Yeah, the other guy we call Jack and I think I saw him as maybe an out. He lives a handful of hours away. So he wasn’t close necessarily. We weren’t seeing each other all the time, but I kind of saw him as this like escape. And maybe the answer to getting out of what I was in. I felt super stuck and super confused. I just kind of wanted to explore, like, what else was out there. And see if maybe this could be the answer or a different path or something, Or maybe in a way to, I was hoping that it would make the wolf think he wanted to be with me for sure. And get more serious and be a little bit upset that I was with this other person, even. **Anne:** The motivation is like twofold. It’s maybe an escape. But maybe this will like be the light bulb that he needs to realize how amazing that I am. Many women start to realize they may need a strategy for dealing with these types of men. To learn more about strategy, enroll in [The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). ## THE OPTION OF BEING ALONE **Anne:** So many women don’t realize that there’s this awesome option and it’s because we haven’t been taught that especially women of faith who’ve grown up, when are you going to get married? Asking you about who you’re dating, that there’s this other awesome option, which is not dating anyone. You really don’t need someone else as an escape plan or something, But we don’t think of that in the moment. We can just be alone and it’s fine. Since my divorce, I’ve been single for 10 years. And I was single for 10 years until I married my husband. So I’m almost 47. I got married at 30, so single 10 years till I’m 30. Then he gets arrested when I’m 37. You guys don’t know my story, but you’ll find out when you interview me for your podcast. So 37 to 47, I’ve also been single. So for that 27 years since I’ve been 20, I’ve only been married for seven of those years. And now I’m proudly, happily single and not dating anyone. And it’s great for me, I love it. **Megan:** We need more examples of that. ## THE DANGER OF NEEDING A RELATIONSHIP **Megan:** We don’t actually need to be in a relationship to be fulfilled. **Anne:** Exactly, so that feeling of like, maybe this is my out. I think is how so many victims feel, but it’s also really dangerous because it often sets you up. Which I’m guessing we’re going to hear in a little bit for another abusive relationship. Sometimes, when we think we need a man for anything. Really it’s a little dangerous. **Rachel:** I was 24 and I think what you said about growing up as a woman of faith. Yeah, you are taught that finding a husband is the end all be all. You’re in your early 20s and that’s the time to do it. So I thought I need to just grab all these pieces and make them fit. Like I don’t want to start over. This is how it’s supposed to be. This is the person I am supposed to marry. We’re just hitting a bump in the road or whatever. I started dating this other person a little bit and see him. After a few months, he was dating around, but he starts having a serious girlfriend where he lives. So that was kind of over. And the wolf at that point jumps in and is like, okay let’s be, you know, a little more serious here. ## COVID & RELATIONSHIP DYNAMICS **Rachel:** This is around COVID. So early COVID time, we start getting more serious. We start integrating back into each other’s families and friends, and that was a big deal. For the next couple of years, I really thought that he and I had worked through our things. We had come back together in a way that I thought was healthy. Fast forward a little bit, we get engaged again in November, 2022. And this is definitely where things are getting very dicey. Because I didn’t realize that he had been living a double life for about four years. At this point I am 27 and he is 30 and we pretty quickly start planning our second wedding. We buy a house in February 2023 in which I pay for 80 percent of it and he pays for 20 percent of it. Because I have more of the stable and successful career than he does. This was a big point of contention, our whole relationship too. I really wanted him to pick up another thing because we live in Southern California. It’s expensive to live here. He kind of tried some things, but at the end of the day, was kind of a quitter. He lived at his parents house for this whole time. It kind of allowed him to not be super ambitious in this way. I was always kind of trying to push him and motivate him because I am a self starter. ## 4TH SIGN OF NARCISSISTIC ABUSE: FUTURE FAKING **Anne:** Was he future faking you? Like, oh, I’ve got this thing going on and I’m going to be doing this. This shows up a lot. **Rachel:** Yeah, I think he would definitely do that sometimes. Or like, oh I can’t say what he does for work. But he would be like, come fall I’m going to be doing something different. I’m not going to be doing this anymore. Like he would kind of come up with these promises and these plans and they would, yeah, never come to fruition. **Anne:** Okay. That’s number four, future faking. Hey, we’re going to do this thing. We’re going to go on this trip. And then to actually get that thing done, either they never do it. Or you have to be part of that. You have to be the one that’s like, okay, you know, that cruise that you promised me six years ago? I’m going to be the one that plans it. Then if you end up going, he’s like, see, I did this for you. And you’re like, no, no, no, no. Lots of victims have applied to college for them or applied to jobs for them, or . . . **Rachel:** Yes, and I was doing this stuff. Yes. **Anne:** That’s part of that future faking, right? **Megan:** Me too. **Anne:** They’re like, I’m going to do this. You’re waiting for them to do it. Then you end up doing it for them. Then it doesn’t go very well because they never wanted to do it in the first place. They were just lying to you. ## LACK OF FOLLOW THROUGH **Rachel:** Yeah. That was a big pattern for us. And I would say too that he was doing that for the second proposal too. He’d be like, this is coming. Let’s go look at rings. And then it would be like months would go by and he would waffle. He was promising me the world. It was getting frustrating waiting for it. So I started getting pushy, and then his proposal was blasé, and Megan has more context on that, because she was kind of involved in it. **Megan:** Very haphazard, last minute put together, because he had another girlfriend at the same time. **Rachel:** Yep, so we move into our house March 1st, 2023. He finally starts a new job. Because now we’re paying a mortgage and he started seeing the dollar signs and got a reality check. He starts this new job and in mid-March, we’d only been living together a couple of weeks. ## SUSPICIOUS TEXTS **Rachel:** And one day he has his phone plugged into the kitchen. And a text pops up from a girl and I asked to see it and he opens it. It’s this very suspicious message about what are you doing tonight? And it’s a coworker from this new job. I say to him, what, what is happening here? And he’s like, well, she’s the one that plans the group get togethers for all the coworkers. So I just was trying to see if they were going to play volleyball tonight. And I say, that’s not what you asked. You asked, what are you doing tonight? I said, do you understand how triggering this is for me? Last time we were engaged, you were having this emotional affair. I found texts on your phone. ## DISCOVERING THE TRUTH **Rachel:** At that point, I decide to go snooping. I open his laptop and the last place that I look is his trash and there’s a document in there detailing in bullet point format. It’s like a diary detailing his whole sexual history with Grace for the last four years. The woman that he had an emotional affair with when we were engaged. **Anne:** What? Do you know why? So many women have been [betrayed you are not alone](https://www.btr.org/betrayed-you-are-not-alone/ "betrayed you are not alone"). **Rachel:** I think there were a couple of reasons why. I think it was like a fetish for him. Um, he would go and like, look back on. Even think . . . **Anne:** Like his own erotic novel that he wrote himself? **Rachel:** I think so, but he was trying to convince me that none of it was true. But there are weird details in there that we’re confirming that it was. So I find this document. ## CONFRONTATION & PANIC **Rachel:** I call him. He’s gone to his next job and he comes home and we sit down on the bed and he has a panic attack. And he is trying to convince me that none of what he wrote is true. He made it all up as a fantasy to help him cope with me dating Jack years ago. He made it all up. **Anne:** Was this a fake panic attack? **Rachel:** Uh, yes, I definitely believe so. Looking back. **Anne:** At the time it feels like it’s an “accident,” but they’re doing it on purpose. Which was our number one thing. He’s acting like he’s having a panic attack. My ex would say like, I’m feeling so much shame. At first I was like, Oh, I feel bad for you. And later I was like, so what? **Rachel:** Exactly. So he has this panic attack. He’s trying to convince me none of these things that he wrote are true. Then he says these words to me, it’s a direct quote, which comes back into play later. This is mid-April. And so he says to me, “I would never touch another woman with my dick.” That is what he says to me. So for a week, I am trying to believe these words that he’s telling me. He’s telling me every single day. None of that’s true. The next day he goes to work after this event happened. I’m at home a having panic attack. I work from home and he is texting me that I’m safe, that I can trust him, that he would never hurt me. Anytime that he hurts me, it hurts him, and all these things. ## PHYSICAL REJECTION OF LIES **Rachel:** And so, for a week I’m trying to believe him and my body is physically rejecting his lies. I physically cannot do it. On the seventh day, after I have the gnarliest panic attack I’ve ever had. I say to him, I’m going to be contacting her. She had also blocked me on social media too. And that didn’t make sense to me either. If nothing had happened between them, why would she go through the trouble of blocking me? And so I told him. I’m going to be contacting her because I cannot believe what you’re saying. I physically cannot believe you. And so at this point he tells me, okay, I’m going to come clean. We did have a relationship for a couple years and it ended during COVID and when you and I started dating again. And he tells me this made up timeline. I am devastated because obviously that’s still been a lie the whole time we were still seeing each other. And he was seeing her at the same time and lying about it. And so I am devastated. I’m not eating. I’m not sleeping. I still say to him, that’s still cheating. The timeline that he made up, he thought it was safe, but it wasn’t. It was overlapping. And I say, okay, you know what? It was years ago. I’m going to choose to forgive you and move past this. ## BACHELORETTE TRIP REVELATION **Rachel:** And then we go on my bachelorette trip in Mexico. And on the last day there, we’re all sitting around the table having a great time playing games. One of my best friends, she gets messaged screenshots from one of her friends from high school. And he had been sending messages to a girl while I was gone. This girl was a sister of my friend Sabrina’s friend. So these messages get back to Sabrina, and he had been asking to hang out with this girl while I was gone. I see these screenshots on her phone the next day in the van on the way to the airport. I asked her, what the heck are those? And she tells me she was trying to wait until we got home. I confront him about it. I’m devastated. I’m having a panic attack in the Cancun airport. My best friends and my sister are on this trip for my bachelorette party celebrating this wedding that we’re supposed to have in a couple months. And it’s all blowing up again in my face. Now everybody that I love essentially is involved and knows. And so I’m deep, deep, deep in shame here. He’s telling me he just wanted to hang out with her as a friend. She’s a friend from high school and all his friends were busy. ## 5TH SIGN OF NARCISSISTIC ABUSE: SAYING THEY DIDN’T DO SOMETHING VERY SPECIFIC **Rachel:** And I get home and what starts happening is I start figuring out how to out manipulate him. And how to essentially coerce him into giving me more information. So I learned, with me saying, I’m going to contact her. That got him to confess things. So I kind of do the same thing. And I get him to confess when I get home from Mexico, a bunch of virtual affairs that he’d been having for years. He confesses all the ones that he can remember. **Anne:** Is that what he said? **Rachel:** That’s what he said. **Anne:** He said all the ones I can remember. I want to say number five is when they tell you a story, like, I never touched another woman with my penis, for example. Then they for sure did. **Rachel:** Yeah. **Anne:** For sure did that thing. So if they give you a strange detail that is a sign that they’re lying. ## SPECIFIC LIES & TRUTHS: HALLMARKS OF NARCISSISTIC ABUSE **Anne:** Because, for some reason they think if I lie specifically about the specific thing. That’s going to cover it up rather than realizing it’s like a dead giveaway. So I 100 percent did not hang out with her at that restaurant on Wednesday. If they’re giving you specific details. Then you can be like, okay, well now I totally know. That he for sure hung out with her at that restaurant on Wednesday. Like you wouldn’t even think to lie about something like that unless it had happened. That’s what I’m trying to say. Like the details are not things that you think of lying about if they didn’t happen. Does that make sense? **Rachel:** Yeah. No, that does make sense. **Anne:** So I think that’s where you’re going with this, is that he’s telling you specific things. Like I didn’t touch another woman with my penis. And you’re just finding out every detail that he told you, that he didn’t do, is the thing that he did. **Rachel:** Yes. Oh, yes. He confesses. Okay. The relationship with Grace went on longer than I said, and it essentially went on up until he proposed to me a second time. ## ENGAGEMENT & NARCISSISTIC ABUSE **Megan:** And he was trying to decide between you and her. **Rachel:** Yeah, **Anne:** Did Grace know about you? **Rachel:** Grace knew that I existed and I still haven’t talked to her yet. I would love to, but she was blindsided too. She didn’t know that he and I were back together. So he was puppet mastering us both. At this point I am a shell of myself, my friends are distraught. My sister is a mess and I’ve asked her not to say anything to my parents. I am in this deep trying to keep everything together all over again mode. Almost exactly five years later to the day. **Anne:** In this mode are you still really wanting to get married? You’re still trying to hold it together because you’re still like, this wedding is happening? **Rachel:** Yes, mm hmm. And he was definitely very much brainwashing me. There was a lot of like spiritual manipulation going on at this point, too. That we were going to church and God was giving him these messages and dreams. And he’s learned so much . Now we’re in mid-June. And I’m basically just like not functioning which was an [effect of spiritual abuse](https://www.btr.org/effects-of-spiritual-abuse/ "effect of spiritual abuse"). One night in June, his phone is plugged in to the charger upstairs and he’s downstairs. I have already scoured his phone, but I get this weird feeling that I need to go and check his voicemails. I scroll down all the way to this little section at the bottom that has blocked messages and deleted messages. ## MULTIPLE BETRAYALS **Rachel:** There are two messages in his blocked messages little tab from very recently, like just a couple of weeks prior. It’s a woman and it’s this sultry voice saying how she misses him and hasn’t heard from him in a while. And he initially was telling me they just are sending inappropriate messages to each other. It’s a coworker from his new job. Over the course of eight hours, I out manipulate him at five in the morning into telling me that he had slept with her twice in April. He tells me that he told me a lie, that he texted me that he was going to be late coming home from work. And I go back in my texts and I figure out when this was. The first time that he slept with her was the day before I found the document on his computer about Grace. And then the second time was the day after I found the document about Grace on his computer when he’s texting me that I’m safe. You know, that he would never hurt me and all these things. I’m finding out about this other four year relationship at the same time that he’s having an affair with his coworker, a completely different woman. It was a Sunday, went to church and I screamed in church during worship, get me out of this hell. I was so manic at this point. I felt like I was losing my mind. I’m experiencing so much abuse from him at this point. ## FAMILY INTERVENTIONS FOR NARCISSISTIC ABUSE **Rachel:** My family at this time was noticing that something was going on. They could tell my sister was like hiding secrets and like something was not right. They end up getting some information out of me. Over the course of a few days they invite me over for a series of interventions. And the last day my parents tell me you can’t marry this person. We don’t support it. We’re not gonna pay for it This needs to not be happening. I tell him this and he essentially shuts down. Then kind of tries to manipulate me in these other ways. He starts mocking me like a child and kind of throwing a lot of tantrums and crying. He says that I’m abandoning him if I’m gonna go over and spend time with my family. All these things are common in narcissistic abuse. And the next day he leaves for work. I take my dog on a walk and I asked God, What am I supposed to do now? It’s June 29th and I hear God go, open up your journal from five years ago, and I open up my journal. And to the day, I had written five years prior, that there’s a darkness in him. That he has sexual addiction and I need to get away from him, all these things. It was like I was writing it right then. It snapped me out of whatever brainwash that I was in. And I came back to myself and I just started screaming in my house. No more, I’m not doing this anymore. I’m not giving him another five years. Like this is it, My parents called me in that moment, which was so strange because they had only been texting me that week. ## BREAKING FREE FROM NARCISSISTIC ABUSE **Rachel:** And in the middle of this panic, I had them come over and we came up with a plan and I left him. Over the next few months while we’re selling my house and everything, he does some really crazy things. He tells me he’s going to get a tattoo of me. All sorts of ridiculous threats that are common within narcissistic abuse. At that point, Megan and I went on my honeymoon together. **Anne:** Yay! **Megan:** After I just left my husband as well, so we were both on her honeymoon, single for the first time in a decade. Being like, oh, let’s start over our lives. **Anne:** That was epic. **Rachel:** Yeah. And that was the beginning of the rest of my life, honestly. So that’s my story. ## HEALING FROM NARCISSISTIC ABUSE TAKES TIME **Anne:** Thank you so much for sharing your story, Rachel. So many women that listen to this podcast are going through that same thing. Only they are married and they didn’t find any of these things out until after the marriage. Or after they had a kid or multiple children. And so good for you. You always had it in you. It’s so hard to [heal from emotional wounds](/healing-emotional-wounds-in-relationships/). That’s the thing that kills me about narcissistic abuse. Sorry, the one thing, no, there’s so many things. Is that women are trying to get to safety, right? The whole time you’re trying to face it, the whole time you’re trying to figure it out. The whole time you were trying to do the right thing and had you known he is a con man. He is a compulsive liar and a narcissist. Because you don’t know what you’re looking at. You’re trying to figure it out. Once you figure it out, you’re like, okay, I know what to do now. But they love to keep you in the dark. That’s what is so infuriating, that they are keeping you in the dark on purpose. To exploit you for whatever they’re exploiting you for, your emotions, intimacy, for some people it’s money. It can be all sorts of things. Maybe all of those things combined, but they are exploiters. And they want to keep you in the dark. So I’m so, so glad that you were finally able to see the truth. ## SAVED FROM NARCISSISTIC ABUSE AT THE FINAL HOUR **Rachel:** Yeah, me too. I thought that it was a redemption path for us getting this house and getting re-engaged in all these things. I am so grateful that we did buy that house and we did live together for a few months. Because that allowed me to find out what he had been hiding for years. I really do feel so strongly that I was saved at the final hour twice. I just really try to live now and not take it for granted and just lean super hard into life. **Anne:** That’s awesome. If you want to hear more of her story and Megan’s story, their podcast is The Traumedy Show with Rachel and Megan Wilford. Thank you both for being here today. **Rachel & Megan:** Thank you so much, Anne. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast **Tags:** emotional abuse --- ### [What to Know When Your In-Laws Are Emotionally Abusive Too](https://www.btr.org/in-laws-are-emotionally-abusive/) **Published:** January 7, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Tania share's her difficult story of living through serious harm from her husband. All while her in-laws are emotionally abusive too. **Content:** If your in-laws enable emotional abuse, you’re not alone. Tragically, this is an extremely common occurrence for victims. Tanya shares her heartbreaking story of living through financial, physical, and emotional abuse – all while her in-laws enable her abuser. If you need live support, learn about our [online Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/ "Online Betrayal Trauma Recover Group Sessions. "). ![in Laws Are Abusive](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/In-Laws-Are-Abusive.webp "in Laws Are Abusive")## TRANSCRIPTION: WHEN YOUR IN-LAWS ARE EMOTIONALLY ABUSIVE TOO **Anne:** I have a member of the BTR community on today’s episode, we’re going to call her Tania. I recorded this a few years ago. Welcome, Tanya. **Tanya:** Thank you so much for having me. Originally, I’m from Africa, but I moved to Canada when I was 16 years old. And I was young, my first time living without my parents. In our culture, we’re not supposed to marry out of the African community. But he was a football player. He moved to Canada from Africa to play a minor league, and when we met, it was pure bliss to meet someone like him. Because I came from a society that men are very, I can say, macho. ## PEER PRESSURE & RELATIONSHIP CONTINUATION **Tanya:** I had a couple family members involved in a very abusive relationship. And for me, it was easy to recognize, but I couldn’t break it off right away. Because it would be like dumb of me. So I had to get to know him and see what was going on. **Anne:** When you say dumb of you, why did you think at the time it would be dumb of you to break it off? **Tanya:** Because I thought that I didn’t give him a chance. ![Are Your In laws Also Colluding with Your Husband to Emotionally Abuse You](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Your-In-Laws-Are-Also-Emotionally-Abusive.webp "Are Your In laws Also Emotionally Abusive")**Tanya:** I had friends around me also that were like, you need to get to know him better so that you can make that decision. So I felt like because of the peer pressure that I had around me. **Anne:** So people are saying you can’t just judge him right off the bat. Because you need to get to know him better. How does it progress from there? **Tanya:** At that time I was only 18 years old. Also it was the first time living in a different country by myself. I was just like, okay, I can make my boundaries. Because I’m not married to him and he’s not really like my boyfriend. Additionally I have my apartment and I don’t have to go to his house. ## LONG-DISTANCE RELATIONSHIP CHALLENGES **Tanya:** But that summer, he got laid off from football, so he had to move back to the United States where there is another league that wanted him. I just felt like, yeah, he’s moving back to the United States. Also he’s an American. I just thought, yeah, our relationship is done. I don’t have to pursue that relationship anymore, but we reconnected again and we start dating. Then he decided, oh, do you want to come to visit? I said, yes. I just felt like, oh, I can rescue him for some reason, I just thought like, I can talk to him. Maybe influence him in a better way because the difference between me and him in what I felt like it was too wild. He was a football player, but I just started noticing differences amongst our values and whatever I believed about family. ![when Your In laws Are Emotionally Abusive As Your Husband](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/When-Your-In-Laws-Are-Emotionally-Abusive.webp "when Your In laws Are Emotionally Abusive")When I came to visit him here in the United States, I just told him, I don’t, think this is going to work. One, because I’m just starting to see that our personalities don’t really go together. ## FIRST MAJOR INCIDENT OF ANGER **Tanya:** And right away I saw this anger come out of him. I couldn’t believe so I grabbed my phone and called my friend. I said, he is angry. In fact he shows anger that I don’t think I can deal with. My friend said, again, I think you’re judging him for just one time situation. ![when Your In laws Collude in Your Emotional Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/When-Your-In-Laws-Are-Emotionally-Abusive-Too-Tanias-Story.webp "when Your In laws Are Emotionally Abusive Too Tanias Story")You are in his country. So you should chill out and calm down. He’s a good candidate for marriage. He would speak to my friends about marriage, saying he would like to marry me. That I’m a good person. That he likes me because I am not like this American woman. Instead, they’re more into material things, and I’m very grounded. So my friend said, you know, I think you should try it. ## FIRST MAJOR INCIDENT OF PHYSICAL ABUSE **Tanya:** He asked me to marry him. My friends threw a big engagement party. I left my job, left my apartment, my car, I moved to the United States. And that time his friend was also married with a woman from Columbia. She said, oh, let’s go to brunch. When we were at the brunch, it was only two hours. We took a long time to come home, because our car stopped and we were looking for someone to help us see what was going on with the car. He was calling me, was calling me, was calling me. It took us three hours to get back home. ![Can In laws Also Be Emotionally Abusive](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Can-In-Laws-Also-Emotionally-Abuse-You.webp "Can In laws Also Emotionally Abuse You")As soon as we get back home, he pushes my phone. Then he throws the phone on the floor and grabs my computer. After that, he throws the computer on the ground. So everything is broken. My friend said, Tanya, what are you going to do now? Because you already accept this man proposal. So now do you want to return to Canada? What’s everyone going to say? **Anne:** Where’s your friend from **Tanya:** A couple of them were Canadians. ## WHEN YOUR IN-LAWS ENABLE EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Anne:** Would you say, where you’re from in Africa, that this was a cultural thing? That men just get mad and it’s no big deal? **Tanya:** It’s pretty common, but it depends also on the family you came from, because my family were not like that. Meeting him and his family and seeing the manipulation. Especially the way they speak and silent treatment. Then I already knew that this marriage was not supposed to happen. Because it was something I’ve never experienced, and it goes back to this. ## EXPLOITATIVE MATERIAL: ABUSE IN & OF ITSELF **Tanya:** Pornography was something that I never heard, not in my house as I was growing up. Even with my friends in Canada. Because we never spoke about it. ![My In laws Are Also Emotionally Abusive Toward Me](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/My-In-Laws-Are-Also-Emotionally-Abusive.webp "My In laws Are Also Emotionally Abusive")But when I returned to the United States, he had invited me to my in-laws home in Chicago. Then sleeping downstairs in their basement, he had this stuff. Because he wanted to watch, I was shocked. And then I said, no, your family is from Africa. How come you have this inside your parents’ home? ## COERCING THE VICTIM INTO VIEWING EXPLOITATIVE MATERIAL AT IN-LAWS HOME **Tanya:** This is not supposed to happen. I was so shocked that he had something like that inside his parents’ home. But I guess he was hiding, and he’s like, let’s watch. I said, no, I cannot watch it. Because I’m a Christian, so I can’t watch it. He was very angry again. He said, There are so many women that would like to be with me. because I’m an American football player and I played for NFL. Including this team, also that team. And do you know how many women would like to be in your place right now? You’re telling me no? It’s just sex. I said, no. For me, it’s not just. No, I cannot do this. ![Surviving Emotional Abuse From Your Husband And In-Laws](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/UD5nwqHXjuo/maxresdefault.jpg) And we broke up. We stopped talking for three or four days. But mind you, I’m already here in the United States. We’re already preparing for this marriage. What will I tell people that I’m breaking up because of this? Because I found it in his parents basement? I felt like everyone around me was just trying to invalidate me? Because I found this guy that plays NFL, I guess it is a big thing. And I also noticed that he was able to get me as an African, I guess, humble and naive. That would bend to whatever it is that he wanted to. And the abuse was not just based on just this. It escalated to almost everything, not just from him, but also from his family members. ## HER EMOTIONALLY ABUSIVE IN-LAWS **Anne:** So his [psychological abuse,](https://www.btr.org/psychological-abuse-definition/) isn’t just coming from him. But he’s also roping your in-laws into emotionally abusing you and coercing you. **Tanya:** Exactly. The emotional abuse from my in-laws was, How can you speak up? Who are you? How dare you go out there and speak up? This is our son. He’s been doing so great. He plays football so well. He’s successful. You’re supposed to be lucky that you have him in your life. Now you’re coming to us, telling us that he’s abusive, that he calls you names. That he takes stuff away from you. Because he took my green card. He took my Canadian citizenship. He would take bank cards. Throughout our marriage, I did not have access to any finances. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) A**nne:** So you ended up marrying him, then. **Tanya:** This time that I left him would be my third time leaving him. **Anne:** So talk about the first couple of times you left. **Tanya:** The abuse was also from my in-laws. I would call my in-laws, I said next time he asks me to do any kind of behavior that I don’t want to. I’ll call the police. Because how can I have it with my husband, and he calls me the B word? I’m not going to do that. And when I started speaking up, the family didn’t like it. My in-laws emotionally abused me by blaming me. They would say, “No, it’s you. You have a big mouth. You speak too much.” ## COERCION & LEAVING INVOLVING IN-LAWS IN THE ABUSE **Tanya:** I went upstairs and put my son to bed. Then he says, “You have to know that this marriage is between me and you. And if you want me to be closer to you, you have to understand. There are certain things that a wife should do.” I said, “What?” He says, “First off, we need to start with sex. If you can give me this. I can go downstairs and speak to my mom to stop.” **Anne:** Wow, so coercion right there. Yeah, in that moment he’s coercing you. **Tanya:** And I left him. My son was only three months at that time. He wasn’t calling, he wasn’t contacting, which for me was fine. Because I have already gone through so much with him. And no support around me. ## IN-LAWS ARE EMOTIONALLY ABUSIVE BY CONVINCING VICTIMS TO STAY **Tanya:** His dad calls me. I completely understand what you’re talking about. I want to apologize, but we are Christians, and you have to understand you guys are married. We don’t believe in divorce. And I don’t want you to raise a son without a father. I promise you that I’ll take him to a [marriage counselor](https://www.btr.org/best-marriage-counseling-near-me-for-couples/ "marriage counselor"). He’ll do therapy, and I’ll be beside you. I just don’t want you to tell anybody. Please come back, I am here and I’ll support you. I said, “I don’t want to come back. Because it’s been almost a year, and I haven’t seen any support from any of you. I feel like you guys are blaming me for whatever is going on.” And I don’t even understand what was going on. That was the first time, and they begged, and he asked, and I came back. And it was awful. The [abusive therapist](/abusive-therapist/) blamed me. ## IN-LAWS ARE EMOTIONALLY ABUSIVE BY ACCUSING VICTIMS OF “RUINING” THE ABUSER’S LIFE **Tanya:** Three months after me being back, he was starting again, verbally abusing me. It was just a cycle, verbally abusing me. No one will believe you. You just came back from Canada. I know it’s something with you. You want to return here to destroy my career. I said, but your dad promised me. So I stayed for another three years. Anne: Yeah, that’s common. My in-laws emotionally abused me by telling me that I was trying to ruin her son’s life. And I was like, what are you talking about? I’m trying to save our marriage. But the in-laws accusation, You’re trying to harm our son.” Is what a lot of in-laws say. **Tanya:** My in-laws said, I was trying to destroy his career. I was trying to destroy his family. But it was because he was having an affair with a woman from his gym. And not just one. There was multiple. **Anne:** And your in-laws knew about the abuse and they still blamed you? **Tanya:** My in-laws knew about the abuse. His mom blames me. He would watch it in front of me. He would sleep outside the home. ## COERCION IS EASIER FOR ABUSERS WHEN IN-LAWS ENABLE IT **Tanya:** He completely isolated me from everyone at this time. Now, I wasn’t even able to contact my family members. Because I started to feel so ashamed. So my family practically, they wash their hands. My in-laws enable him to continue to abuse. I was home with my son, worried about COVID. He had this cough that we’re afraid of. It was so congested. And he wouldn’t give me the car keys or money to take my son to the hospital. That day, he came home at one o’clock in the morning. Me and my son were sleeping, and he comes upstairs. He didn’t take a shower, and he wants to jump in bed. And I told him, no, you can’t. My son also looks at him and says, “No, you can’t”. And he says, This is my home, this is my bed, I’ll sleep here. I said, No, you can’t. And I stood up off the bed, and as I was walking, he came behind me. He starts doing like thrusting movement. And I push him. And he calls me B word the S word. Nobody wants me. Nobody likes me, I am nothing. Look at me and look at him as a football player. Everybody wants to be with him. I said, go, I don’t care what women would like to be with you. But I will not stand you talking to me like that anymore. Never again, not in front of my son. And he says, listen, tonight we’ll see who’s going to live. My son started crying, and I grabbed my son. I went to another room and closed the door. I run outside and he comes behind me. ## INCIDENT LEADING TO ARREST **Tanya:** He grabs my night down and pushes the night ground, and I grab a picture frame and throw the picture frame in his head. He calls the police. The police came in and they said, what happened? I start to explain, and he says, even my son saw her throwing the picture frame on me. **Anne:** So you are arrested for domestic violence after being abused consistently for years. Which probably you weren’t actually abusive, here’s an [emotional abuse checklist](/emotional-abuse-checklist/) to check. You weren’t guilty, because there is no such thing as [reactive abuse](https://www.btr.org/reactive-abuse/ "reactive abuse"). What happens next? ## IN-LAWS ARE EMOTIONALLY ABUSIVE BY SHAMING & GUILTING VICTIMS INTO STAYING **Tanya:** In jail, I felt this peace coming over me. I know God took me out, of the situation. Because all these years, I was not ever, ever able to explain to anyone what was going on. When I went to church, I told them, “Listen. This is what he does sexually. This is what he says. Yes, I am his wife. But how can a wife have be with her husband that does those things? That calls her names. How can I do that?” Everyone that I went to, they were like, “You have to try. You have to save your marriage.” The more I tried, the more he was abusing me. In fact the more I cleaned the home, became more submissive, and dressed up, he was more abusive. I didn’t speak to my family. The more I didn’t go to his place of work, the more I stayed home. Anything I tried, it was abuse. To the point where I was starting to develop hives all over my body. I was starting to develop anxiety. Anyone who would come to my home and knock on the door would have these panic attacks. When I went to jail, everything stopped. I stayed in jail for three days. I didn’t have any panic attacks. ## FINDING HELP TO GET ON MY FEET **Tanya:** When I came out of jail, I didn’t have a place to go. Because again, he isolated me from anything that I know, everybody that I know. I couldn’t go home. One of the moms called, and she told me, I want to invite you to bring your son. Let’s play soccer, go to the beach. Let’s do something. I said, please help me. Also, I just came out of jail and she says, where are you? I told her where I was. Right away, she came to pick me up. And took me to her home. I stayed there for almost a month. After a month, I had to find a place to go. Shelters helped me with food and lawyers. Also people that I can talk to to help me with my case. I’m here, I haven’t gone home yet, and our case is still going on. He was fighting to take custody of my son for almost a month. I wasn’t allowed to see my son. My lawyer actually helped me recover the custody. So now we have 50/50. **Anne:** Okay. ## TANYA’S CURRENT LIVING SITUATION **Anne:** You’re staying in an apartment with the help of the domestic violence shelter now. **Tanya:** Yes, and since I have been here in this apartment, he’s been trying to contact me. He’s telling me he doesn’t want to get a divorce, and that he’s sorry. He’s telling me that he doesn’t know why he has been behaving the way he does. But I still have this confusion in my head. Outside, everyone sees him as this wonderful man. He’s a coach. He’s a leader in our community. He volunteers at my son’s school. He helps his clients develop this positive attitude about themselves. About their bodies, minds, and soul. But at home, he was so disrespectful to me. That I lost myself. ## CONFUSION & GROOMING TACTICS **Tanya:** After me going to jail, for me to be where I am, for him to say he wants to go back with me. That he doesn’t want to get a divorce, I am still confused. I am still lost. **Anne:** Well, he does not want to lose control. When he says those things, that’s grooming. He’s trying to groom you back to be with him. Because he does not want to lose control over you. **Tanya:** Yes, I’m not important to him, because he has never done anything to make me feel important. He thinks that I am only worthwhile to take care of our son. Also have it with him, clean the home, cook, and do whatever he needed to do with me. **Anne:** So in this confusion, are people helping you see through that? Because it is a really hard time to think, maybe he does care or maybe he will change or something like that, and that’s a dangerous time because he’s never shown any evidence of doing that. Is it easy for you to see it as grooming, or is it still so traumatizing and confusing? ## SEEKING SUPPORT & COUNSELING **Tanya:** I’m speaking to a counselor, and she’s helping me. She’s saying, listen, you can’t speak to him. You can’t return to his home or gym. You cannot speak to your in-laws. He has a restraining order on me. **Anne:** Despite that, he’s contacting you to try and get you to talk to him? **Tanya:** He’s the one who’s contacting me. He’s the one who calls me. He invited me to a staycation and wants to buy me stuff. He keeps asking me if I need anything. I blocked him from my phone, but he’s still wanting that communication. And another part of the confusion just comes, maybe this fact of me going to jail. Maybe something clicked in his mind, and me filing for divorce, I keep going back and forth. ## THOUGHTS ON ABUSE & SURVIVAL **Anne:** These similar thoughts go through every woman’s head who is faced with this. Do I just put up with the abuse? What alternative do I have? Am I going to be homeless? Am I going to have my son? However, you are not crazy. The only thing that these types of thoughts prove is that you are a victim of abuse. This is how victims of abuse think. **Tanya:** Yeah, I have a seven year old and I have nobody, and I just filed for divorce. I have no finances and depended on him. I wasn’t allowed to take any courses, any going to school, any training, nothing. For almost everything and anything. So I am very sure. Because I know my lawyer told me that he denied my request for child support and alimony. So I’m sitting down here and still waiting. Until when will I continue to live in a shelter? Now, my question is, do I return to Canada? And even if I return to Canada, am I going to take my son with me? I cannot continue to be in a shelter having 50/50 percent of custody. I don’t have financial means to take care of my son. And you have to remember I don’t have my green card in order to get a good job. ## TRYING TO PICK UP THE PIECES **Anne:** What does your lawyer say about the circumstances right now? **Tanya:** She’s helping, trying to regain all my documentation that he has taken away from me. He actually insists I should go and take a psychological evaluation. When he asked for my son’s custody. He wanted me to do that. My lawyer said no. Just the simple fact that she doesn’t have her documentation. And all this year, she hasn’t been able to go see her family. There are proofs. So no, we’re going to continue to support you. We’ll continue to listen to you. And we’re going to get something for you to survive, for you to help your son. And I think this is where he knows. That I am that vulnerable that I’m going to want to get help from him. So that my head would go back. And say, oh, listen, I don’t have anyone here and life is really hard out there. **Anne:** Yeah, you’re in an extremely vulnerable situation, but you can get out of it. ## PLEA FOR SUPPORT WHEN YOU’RE IN-LAWS ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM **Anne:** It’s going to take time and effort, and it’s so hard. And probably seems impossible. But I just want all our listeners who are listening to pray for Tanya? She needs us. She has nothing and needs our help. They do have family, they still feel that sense of like nobody believes me. I can’t figure out how to fix this. And they feel stuck. So that feeling of being stuck is something that’s familiar to all of our listeners. We can empathize with you. **Tanya:** But I think the impossible part is that I feel like nobody’s listening. No one is listening. No one cares that no one wants to believe me. I also feel like, should I even pray? Because the times I went to church and spoke to them, and having counseling in the church. They kept pushing me back to that place of abuse. I keep having that picture of him masturbating in front of me, of him completely disregarding me in that way. **Anne:** That’s extreme coercion, psychological and emotional abuse that you’re experiencing. It is mind boggling to me that people think that this is not an abuse issue. Or that their husband’s use does not affect women. Or that somehow their infidelity is like just something that men do. Also, that it’s not an absolutely debilitating abuse to their spouse is crazy to me. ## MOST HARM FROM COERCION **Anne:** It’s interesting to me that in telling your story, you’ve been verbally abused. You’ve been psychologically abused, you’ve mentioned that several times. So one of the most traumatic things for you was the exploitative material. And people might be like, well, that wasn’t a big deal. He punched you. And you’re like, the thing most traumatizing was the sexual coercion abuse and [infidelity is abuse.](https://www.btr.org/is-infidelity-abuse/ "infidelity is abuse.") **Tanya:** It’s because I feel that if it wasn’t the inappropriate behavior. Meaning the infidelity, watching it, just having a woman at his disposal. It was the main aspect of the abuse. Because if I have access to these women, if they’re looking in front of me. Then when I come home, what do I need you for, but to be angry with you? Not to respect you, to call you the names that I can call you. I really do believe the coercion for me was a very, very big thing. Very big part of my abuse in my marriage. I really do believe that. I came across your podcast listening to all the stories and they resonate with me so much. That my in-laws enabled the abuse. I feel very sad and lost. But, I believe I will come out of this strong. ## YOU’RE NOT ALONE **Anne:** There are thousands of [listeners to this podcast](https://www.btr.org/podcast/). And so just little old you, little Tanya, who thinks no one is listening. And that nobody cares, you’ve now just told your story to thousands of women. You’ve [listened to us on the podcast](https://www.btr.org/podcast/). We’ve been this, hopefully, light in the darkness, but in this moment, right now, we’re all here with you. I hope you can feel our love and [support for your emotional abuse](https://www.btr.org/emotional-abuse-checklist/ "support for your emotional abuse"). Across the world, we are here with you in sisterhood and we will hope that God provides a miracle for you. Because not knowing where your next meal is going to come from. Not having any control over where you’re living, no money and no support system. Is a completely overwhelming situation. But I do know that God sees you. He’s listening now. He loves you and we love you. You have to fight. **Tanya:** Yes, yes, it is. It is crazy and it’s scary and it’s lonely. But I do have my son and I do have this [podcast that I have been listening](https://www.btr.org/podcast/) to and it just made me feel. I am not alone. **Anne:** You are incredible and brave and strong. You are amazing and I’m proud of you for coming on this podcast and sharing your story. When you don’t have a happy ending, yet. **Tanya:** To anyone that is listening. I don’t want to go back to that man. I would like to have my son with me. To everyone, send me that energy. That strength and courage to please make me be strong. Not to go back in the hands of that man. Because I never knew rest until I went inside of that jail. I’m asking to please pray for me. ## TENDER HEART **Anne:** We are with you. We will pray for you, Tanya. Thank you for being so brave and sharing your story. I want to thank everyone for listening. My heart is really tender right now. Not just Tanya’s story, but the mini stories that I’ve heard. And if you’d like to spend time with women who get it. With women who can sit with you in pain and totally understand. Because they’ve been in a similar situation. Please attend a [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group](https://www.btr.org/group/) session. You can attend one today. We built our BTR group sessions for this situation. So no woman out there. It feels like she’s alone. It’s the least expensive, appropriate option out there. And it’s unlimited live support multiple sessions a day. In every single time zone. We’d love to see you in a session today. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Why Won't He Do This ONE Thing to Fight For Our Marriage? Oh, I Get It Now](https://www.btr.org/why-wont-my-husband-fight-for-our-marriage/) **Published:** January 14, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Does your husband make big promises but refuse or "forget" to follow through? **Content:** Does your husband promise you that he will do *anything* to help heal your marriage from his betrayal, lies, and emotional abuse? Then then doesn’t do anything? “I fight for our marriage, but he doesn’t follow through,” said Kirsten, a member of our community. Does this sound familiar? We’re here for you, learn about our [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions.](https://www.btr.org/group/ "Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions.") ![Fighting for Your Marriage Alone](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Fighting-For-Your-Marriage-Alone.webp "Fighting for Your Marriage Alone")## TRANSCRIPT: WHY WON’T MY HUSBAND FIGHT FOR OUR MARRIAGE? **Anne:** I have Kirsten on the podcast today. I know her personally, and she’s amazing. She’s a member of our community. She is a divorced mom of four, and she’s also an incredible artist and writer. Who likes to write to explore being a real human being breaking through destructive personal and generational patterns. And how handling hard times with humor can make life more palatable. Kirsten strives to not take herself too seriously. To help balance out the very serious things she’s been through in her life with humor and art and other modes of coping. We’re going to talk about a phrase that she invented. I’m not going to let the cat out of the bag. I’m going to let her set up what this term is and then we’ll have a discussion about it. ![Why Can't My Husband Fight For The Marriage?](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Why-Cant-My-Husband-Fight-For-Our-Marriage.webp "Why Cant My Husband Fight for Our Marriage")So can you talk about the background of this term, first of all? **Kirsten:** So a little bit about my personal backstory. I had been about 17 years into my then marriage, and we were about a year into an in house separation. And working on him trying to recover from his addiction. And me trying to recover from 17 years of long term premeditated and fairly disturbing mind games and lies and betrayals. ## WHAT IS “MEATLOAFING”? WHEN HE SAYS HE WILL FIGHT FOR OUR MARRIAGE **Kirsten:** We were doing an in house separation, and he said that he would do anything to fix the damage that was happening in our marriage. And I believed him. I wanted to believe him when he said he would fight for our marriage. One night he came down from his bedroom that he was staying in and asked me when I would drop my boundary of him Not being able to initiate any physical touch in our marriage. I reminded him that he had not followed through with the task that he’d been given by his therapist and by our religious leader. That my personal therapist had suggested that I may even need some really specialized therapy to be able to heal. To get back to that point where I’d be comfortable being physically intimate with him. ![Why Can't My Husband Fight For Our Marriage Like Me?](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Why-Cant-My-Husband-Fight-For-Our-Marriage-Like-I-Am.webp "Why Cant My Husband Fight for Our Marriage Like I Am")He asked me how long it would take for me to do this healing. And I said, I don’t, I don’t know. Six months? A year? I don’t know. He let me know that that was too long. That my boundary was impeding his recovery. So, that’s kind of when I knew that that marriage was over. I’m a pretty visual thinker. I’m an artist. I have a brain full of all kinds of ridiculous cultural references. When he said that, I could see in my head this video and song that came out in the early 90s from this rocker, Meatloaf. ## WHY WON’T HE DO THIS ONE THING TO FIGHT FOR OUR MARRIAGE? **Kirsten:** He did this ridiculous video called, I will do anything for love. And I could hear his voice in my head. You know, I can do anything for love, but I won’t do that. I just started laughing and walked out of the room. I’m sure that it appeared very rude to him, but I just, the ridiculousness of it. You know, 17 years of really awful behavior and damage, and he couldn’t give me this. This one thing that I was asking for him to do. I’m in the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org) community, and one day a woman said her partner was not going to do the thing that she had asked him to do. To be able to receive healing in their marriage. That came back to my head and I said, Oh, he’s Meatloafing you. ![Why Can't My Husband Fight For Our Marriage Like I Am?](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Why-Cant-My-Husband-Fight-For-Our-Marriage-Like-I-Do.webp "Why Cant My Husband Fight for Our Marriage Like I Do")Of course, you know, I often forget that I’m one of the older members of the community. You probably have to be over maybe 35 to kind of get that reference right away. But he said, what are you talking about? And I said, don’t you remember that song by Meatloaf? I’ll do anything for love, but I won’t do that. And that just started a whole entire thing of hilarity where we made up memes about Meatloaf and what he would and wouldn’t do. It was fun. And we need the laugh, quite frankly, things can get quite heavy in the community at times. They are all saying I will do anything to fight for my marriage, but in reality won’t do what it actually takes. But it’s a really appropriate term to describe the way that sometimes when addicts try to keep all the things. ## I WANT TO FIGHT FOR MY MARRIAGE: WHEN ABUSERS USE THE MEATLOAF TECHNIQUE **Kirsten:** Why wouldn’t they? They have a loving partner and a family, they’re taking care of all their stuff. Then on the side, they also have their addiction and whatever life they’ve built around that. They’ll say they want to fight for our marriage.” To be able to try and protect that dual life and that addiction. So you can’t really listen to the things they say. You know, I mean, this meatloaf song is like eight minutes long. It’s ridiculous. I mean, he just goes on and on and on about all these things that he’ll do for her. He’ll go to hell and back. He’ll do, you know, I mean, it’s just, the video is hilarious. And not to mention that, by the way, he’s a monster in the video, but when she gives him love, he turns into a man. ![Husband Refuseing to Fight for Our Marriage](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Husband-Refuses-to-Fight-For-Our-Marriage.webp "Husband Refuses to Fight for Our Marriage")**Anne:** Oh, wow. The Beauty and the Beast. scenario. Does it ever say what the thing he won’t do is? **Kirsten:** Well, in actuality, of course, the song doesn’t really mean that. Because what he means is he won’t cheat on her. He won’t forget her feelings. He’ll do all these things. And then she comes in on her verse and she says, are you gonna cheat on me? Are you gonna hurt my feelings and break my heart? And he’s like, I won’t do that. So in actuality, the song’s not really as bad as it sounds when we made the meme out of it. But you know, we all have that line in our head from the song, if we’re old enough. ## I WILL DO ANYTHING FOR LOVE, BUT I WON’T DO THAT **Anne:** Yeah, I will do anything for love, but I won’t do that. A woman in our community, she got her young daughter’s ears pierced in like January? And I don’t know, four months later or something, she sent her daughter to her ex’s house. They were these really expensive stud earrings. And he lost one of the earrings and then he wrote this email that was like this five paragraph manifesto about how could they improve communication and what could he do? ![Why Doesn't My Husband Put Any Effort Into Fighting For Our Marriage?](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Why-Wont-Husband-Fight-For-Marriage.webp "Why Wont Husband Fight for Marriage")He would do anything to help out, you know, that kind of a thing. She wrote back and said, pay $20 for Sophie’s earring. He wrote this big rant about how he never consented to her getting her ears pierced. There was no way he was going to pay for the earring. But he didn’t bring that up back in January when she had her ears pierced. So he was like, I will do anything, but there’s no way I’ll pay $20 for a lost earring. And it’s funny the things that they won’t do. When they want to fight for their marriage. Well, they won’t do what they don’t want to do is the thing. **Kirsten:** Right. You know, when you speak about serious breaches in trust and contract of a partnership, which, most of our members are married and their partnership is a marriage and, you know, the onus of healing, the broken trust is on the person that broke the trust. ## I TRIED TO FIGHT FOR OUR MARRIAGE USING BOUNDARIES **Kirsten:** So, as the offended partner begins their healing process. And they start to gather their strength and their dignity back around them. Also they have a community that builds them up, they learn about boundaries and they start to put those in place. They’ll begin to set healing tasks and limits on the allowed behaviors for that offending partner. This is not an attempt to control the partner, this is their attempt to try and fight for their relationship. ![My Husband Won't Fight At All to Save Our Marriage](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/My-Husband-Isnt-Fighting-to-Save-Our-Marriage-Like-I-Am.webp "My Husband Isnt Fighting to Save Our Marriage Like I Am")**Anne:** To establish some safety. **Kirsten:** Exactly. I mean, because they’ve now realized. That all these things have gone on. My first reaction when I found out the true depth of the betrayal, that had happened in my marriage, was to just leave. I was done right then. But my attempt to be able to feel safe enough to wait to give him some time to heal and fix his problem. Was to have boundaries in place. That’s the only way I could stay, and keep fighting for our marriage. I wasn’t trying to control him as a person. I just needed that. You know, I needed that for myself. Oftentimes the offending partner will profess with all kinds of words, all the things that they’re willing to do. They feel so bad. I’ll do anything I can to fix this. And it’s impossible to know if [your husband is grooming you](https://www.btr.org/is-my-husband-grooming-me/ "your husband is grooming you"). But when they’re actually put to the test, they refuse to engage. They refuse to follow through. That just goes to show you that the old adage that you watch their feet and not their mouth is true. **Anne:** Like the, I would do it if you wouldn’t bother me about it. You’ve heard that one before. ## HE SAID HE WANTED TO FIGHT FOR OUR MARRIAGE BUT HIS ACTIONS DIDN’T MATCH HIS WORDS **Anne:** Where they’re like, I was about to do it, but now that you reminded me, I won’t be doing it on my own. So just let me do it in my own time. **Kirsten:** I don’t like it when you act like my Mom. You’re taking my dignity away. Let me do this in my own time. **Anne:** In their own time is never. They’re only saying that to avoid doing the thing. **Kirsten:** Why should they get to do anything in their own time? They’re the one that broke the contract. They’re the one that broke the trust. They are the one’s who should fight for our marriage. They really should do anything. I mean, you know, within reason. Most of the women in our community are pretty healthy people. They’re not trying to use this as an opportunity to control their spouse or their partner. ![Why My Husband Isn't Fighting to Save Our Marriage](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/My-Husband-Isnt-Fighting-to-Save-Our-Marriage.webp "My Husband Isnt Fighting to Save Our Marriage")**Anne:** No, they’re looking for safety and they’re looking for truth. In your situation, did you ever consider your situation to be abuse while you were in this place of knowing about his dangerous behavior. But thinking maybe he could get into recovery when you’re kind of thinking of him as an addict? Was there ever a time where you were like, wait a minute, I was abused this whole time? **Kirsten:** No, it never really crossed my mind. See, one of the things about my situation is I was married before this marriage, very shortly. For 18 months and it was a very abusive, destructive marriage. So to me, anything that wasn’t that was better. ## WHEN VICTIMS BEGIN TO SET LIMITS & BOUNDARIES, ABUSERS MAY START “MEATLOAFING” **Kirsten:** Anytime I start to feel like something might be wrong or my body was like, Oh, I’m uncomfortable. If I would bring it up to my spouse. He would say, yeah, you’re right, something is wrong, you need to go to therapy because you’re broken from your first marriage. I became the kind of person that would just completely take all of it in on myself. I was sure that everything that was wrong in our marriage was my fault. It wasn’t until I was in my therapeutic disclosure, and this is after a surprise dump disclosure, I thought I knew everything. But after a therapist had helped lead him through. all the things, which, you know, turned in from a five page thing to ten page disclosure. ![My Husband Isn't Fighting Even A Little Bit For Our Marriage](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Husband-Isnt-As-Invested-in-Marriage-As-Wife-Is.webp "Husband Isnt As Invested in Marriage As Wife is")When I heard some of the very specific things that he did that were so twisted that my brain starts to say, wait a minute, only crazy people do this. Like abusive, crazy, like you see in the lifetime movies, kind of people. Even then, it still took me a good year, year and a half to accept the fact that I was actually severely abused for many, many years. **Anne:** Why do you think it’s so easy? Well, not so easy, but easier for women to recognize abuse when they’re in a relationship, like your first marriage? Where the abuse was really obvious compared to how long was your second marriage? **Kirsten:** By the time the divorce went through, we’d been married for 20 years. ## I WANTED TO KEEP FIGHTING FOR OUR MARRIAGE, BUT I COULDN’T SEE THROUGH THE FOG **Anne:** So compared to the second marriage, that was 20 years where the whole time, You’re in this fog of abuse, but you can’t see it, and you’re trying to wrap your head around what’s going on. Why do you think it’s so difficult for women to see this second type of abuse? **Kirsten:** Well, I’ve never considered myself a person that could be abused. I’m not stupid or weak. I’m quite sassy and strong willed. I never thought that anything like that could ever happen to me, and it was very subtle. Very, very subtle and not only that, but I grew up in a family and in a religion where I was groomed. Some people don’t like that term, but it’s true. To turn over my knowing and my will to the patriarch of the home, the husband, the leader of our church, that’s what a good woman does. ![My Husband Isn't Fighting At All For Our Marriage](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Husband-Isnt-Fighting-For-Marriage-Like-Wife-Is.webp "Husband Isnt Fighting for Marriage Like Wife is")So my natural ability to kind of say, Hey, this doesn’t feel right. Just over the years really was squashed. So, you know, never in my brain until like a therapist or a podcast or something would say, Hey, this behavior is abusive. Would I ever think, Oh, you’re right. Putting that label on it, which seems extreme to a lot of people and they really kick against it was enough to clear my brain up from the fog to start to look for more truth. **Anne:** Yeah, you mentioned a lot of people kick against the term abuse, especially within the context of addiction. Why do you think so many people are unwilling to say, if you’re in a relationship with an active addict or an active porn user, you are in an abusive relationship? It is an abuse issue. And you have [symptoms of betrayal trauma.](https://www.btr.org/26-symptoms-of-betrayal-trauma/ "symptoms of betrayal trauma.") ## HE SAYS HE WANTS TO FIGHT TO SAVE OUR MARRIAGE BUT HE SEES ME AS SUBSERVIENT **Anne:** Why do you think so many people don’t want to go there? **Kirsten:** Well, there’s a lot of shame around anything that has to do with it. People don’t like to talk about it. They don’t want to be real about it. They certainly don’t want to talk about anything that has to do with abusive behaviors and sex. The level of shame will make it so people don’t want to talk about it at all. Let alone slap a label of abuse on it. There’s all this cultural misogyny, serious [examples of misogyny](/examples-of-misogyny/). That a woman should do what her spouse wants her to do. This is [what marital coercion is](https://www.btr.org/what-is-marital-coercion/ "what marital coercion is"). Her needs should be subservient to her spouse’s needs. Even things like a woman shouldn’t enjoy it, or she shouldn’t have to worry about feeling safe because it’s just a duty that needs to happen in a marriage. ![Why Your Husband Doesn't Seem Invested in Your Marriage](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Husband-Doesnt-Seem-Invested-in-Marriage.webp "Husband Doesnt Seem Invested in Marriage")With all this cultural baggage and all these [things generationally that we’re dragging with us as women](https://www.btr.org/fairy-tales-have-harmed-women/), it’s just something that we wouldn’t even consider unless it’s, you know, a violent rape, say. You know, but in a marriage context, I mean, we’ve had women in the community that didn’t even realize until they heard somebody else talk about it. That they actually were raped in their own marriage, when I had that experience. And you just don’t understand what’s going on. You have no context or words for it. You don’t have the vocabulary for it. We weren’t taught that until you get into the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org) community and learn . The verbiage that you need to be able to start clarifying those things in your head. ## ABUSERS DON’T THINK TO ASK FOR CONSENT: THEY FEEL ENTITLED TO IT **Anne:** What helps you realize you were raped? I’m guessing multiple rapes. **Kirsten:** Well, yeah multiple times. I didn’t understand my body’s fight, flight, freeze, or fawn response. I didn’t understand the trauma response. So, I didn’t recognize that those times when I didn’t want to be there doing what he wanted. I would just leave my body so that I could make it through it. That that was something that would be considered a assault. And there was one specific situation that involved a big production that he had put together almost like a movie. A play that he wanted me to play out. With notes and letters and this big thing where I had to go here and do this and then here and do that. And da da da and ended up in a hotel room and it was a horrendous experience for me. ![Why Won't My Husband Fight For Our Marriage???](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/qpinvaj-q2A/maxresdefault.jpg) Somebody had mentioned, hey, this thing happened to me, I think I was raped by my husband. And I was like, wait, rape? That’s rape? And it just hit me. I was like, that is what I was experiencing that night. I left my body so I wasn’t there, and let him do what he wanted to do. But I didn’t want to be there. I had not given consent for that experience. But I didn’t know [how to say no](https://www.btr.org/how-to-say-no/ "how to say no"). I didn’t know I could say no. **Anne:** Yeah, and for someone who thinks they’re entitled, to it from their wife because she is an object or she is subservient, then asking for consent is not even on the table either. ## HUMOR & VALIDATION HELP VICTIMS OF BETRAYAL & ABUSE **Kirsten:** Right. If you’ve lived most of your marriage in a place of trauma where you didn’t ever speak up and say, I don’t like this or no, I’m not doing that. In my case, my then spouse considered that I was into it. You know, he never stopped to question that I might not enjoy it. And he was so good at building up fantasies in his head that he wouldn’t probably have seen or cared to see, that I wasn’t really fully giving consent. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) **Anne:** We have so much that we’ve learned through these experiences and hopefully sharing it can help other women **Kirsten:** Yes, and when you learn that, you need things to help you be brave. You need a community around you of women who understand what you’ve gone through. No one has to try and explain everything to them because they already know. You need people that you can laugh with. I mean you can’t just go over to your next door neighbor and make a joke about marital rape. You can’t do that. It’s totally inappropriate. But sometimes we need to laugh. The absurdity of our situations will hit us. And it’s all you can do. I mean, if you can’t laugh, you’ll die. If you need to be able to have that picture of Meatloaf singing in your head. While your spouse is trying to give you all the reasons why he can’t do this one thing that you’ve asked him to do. To try and fix the damage that he did, and fight for your relationship. To be able to help you get through that without going crazy, you need that. ## PROCESSING ABUSE THROUGH ART **Anne:** Kirsten is an incredible artist and I want her to talk about her art. And how that has helped her process her trauma and heal from what she has been through. I had the opportunity to go to her art show with my Mother. We spent, I don’t know, maybe two hours. We spent so long there because every single painting was so touching to me. I read the descriptions and I just sat and pondered it. We didn’t want to leave. We just wanted to stay there and it was one of the best experiences I’ve had viewing art. It really spoke to me, and helped me process my own trauma. Having had that experience with your art, able to view it and [process my own trauma](https://www.btr.org/trauma-process/) and interpret it in different ways. Can you talk about your art and what it means to you and how it helped you? **Kirsten:** You know, sometimes we think, Oh, I didn’t know what I was doing. I didn’t know what was happening to me. I have all this trauma stored up in me and I didn’t know how to process it. But the human mind is incredibly flexible and, you know, very able to defend itself against trauma in any way that it can. For me, a way that I didn’t realize, I was doing that before I find out anything about what was happening in my marriage was through art. ## VICTIMS OF ABUSE & BETRAYAL DESERVE SAFE SPACES **Kirsten:** I was processing the things that were happening in my life through art. I initially had gone to school to be a children’s book illustrator. That’s what I thought I wanted to do. I love that still, but I found myself being drawn to doing a lot of really angsty and introspective self portraits. I laugh sometimes because I think, what am I, a narcissist? That word is thrown around a lot. I just keep painting myself over and over and over again. I don’t know if you know anything about the artist Frida Kahlo, but she did a lot of self processing through her art as well. A lot of self portraits. I don’t know if I would say that I’m as amazing as she was. But she’s kind of my guide as far as just going ahead and doing what your heart tells you to do as an artist. The first self portrait that I did was right after my first divorce from my 18 month marriage, and it was surprising to me how cathartic it was to paint the feelings I was feeling. To get them out onto this canvas. That continued through the years. My entire getting married again, being a young mother, and through a very toxic marriage. I would do these self portraits. Usually, I would have a dream, and the image would be in my head when I would wake up. Then I would go through the process of doing sketches, taking pictures, preparing the work and then making it. I’d always feel better afterwards. I didn’t really realize what I was doing. ## WHILE FIGHTING FOR MY MARRIAGE, I DIDN’T REALIZE HOW MUCH I NEEDED TO HEAL **Kirsten:** Now looking back and having had so much education about , abuse and learning more about trauma and what it does to the body and the brain. I realized that I was releasing a lot of trauma into my paintings. In fact, sometimes I laugh and call my paintings horcruxes because I feel like I’ve cut a piece of my soul out and put it into the painting. But usually the things that I leave in the painting are things that are good to be leaving. So it’s just a really important way for me to journal my life, to express my feelings and to get something out of my soul. **Anne:** I’d like to talk about a couple of specific pieces, if you don’t mind. One of them is this incredible painting of you in a nightgown with a halo in a dirty bathroom. I really wanted to talk to you about this because I have had so many dirty bathroom dreams. Where I’m in like a stall, the toilet’s overflowing. There’s dirty water on the ground, the sink is overflowing, and it’s just disgusting. I have to figure out how to go to the bathroom in there. This is a recurring dream that I’ve had. And when I saw this painting, I was like, this is straight out of my dream. I don’t know if this was one that you had a dream about as well. There’s also a chicken in it and a candle. **Kirsten:** This was the first painting that I did after my therapeutic disclosure that I went through with my now ex husband and our therapist. ## THE FIGHT FOR MY MARRIAGE REVEALED ITSELF THROUGH ART **Kirsten:** In which I heard all the things, all the things that had been happening in my marriage for 17 years. I had read online a call for entry to a show in which they were asking people to do theme specific artwork. It was for a gallery that was in LA and the name of the show was Waterline. They wanted women artists to do works about water and its effect on their lives. I never enter a show that isn’t local, I wanted to be brave. I kind of had my fists up in a fighting mode after finding out all these awful things. And so I was thinking about what I could do for the show if I was going to enter it and I had a dream that night. That I was in a old, dirty and for me it wasn’t a bath, it was actually, an abandoned psychiatric hospital. Like from a horror movie, you know, with broken tiles and the old school look of the industrial in the 20s and 30s and drains and yucky, dirty water everywhere. I was, covered in mud with the lines from floods. You know, when there’s a flood, how it leaves a line of debris on whatever, the building or the edge of the creek or something. There’s a flood and they’ll leave these lines and each line, you know, progressively went up what was representing different traumas that I’d been through in my life. The fight for my marriage, was in those flood lines. ## IMAGERY OF ABUSE **Kirsten:** It was as if I was there, you know, the, the image already existed. It was created, if you will, spiritually in my head that night. I got up the next morning and I ran to the thrift store and I found a nightgown and I went outside and started dumping myself in mud so that I could take photos to, to draw from for this painting. And just the process of actually preparing the reference photos, getting this nightgown muddy, getting my arms muddy, taking the pictures was incredibly important to me. It would, if anybody filmed it, be considered a piece of performance art that went along with the painting. But you know, it was a private experience and not something that I wanted documented for everybody to see. Then when I start putting the imagery together, I had to include a chicken because I love chickens and they’re my girls. So don’t try to ask me to explain it, but the chicken’s like my spirit guide. So that was one of my hens, Penny, my hen, and she was in the painting. I also included a prayer candle, like you would find in a Catholic church at the altar, I like to use a lot of old Renaissance imagery in my artwork. I just like it. So I put a halo around myself because I felt like not toot my own horn or anything, but sometimes when you go through really [traumatic experiences](https://www.btr.org/treating-body-image-issues-after-betrayal/). Especially when they last for a long time, it changes you. ## SAINTS & DROWNING IN SOMEONE ELSE’S FILTH **Kirsten:** [Those experiences can be sanctified by your healing. You kind of feel like these old saints, you know, there’s a saint for everything in the Catholic church.](https://www.btr.org/recover-from-betrayal-trauma/ "Those experiences can be sanctified by your healing. You kind of feel like these old saints, you know, there's a saint for everything in the Catholic church.") There’s a saint for everything. A saint for moving, a saint for people that drown in water, a saint for being killed by an arrow on the back of a wagon. I mean, anything that you can think of. And, and I’m like, yeah, I feel like I’m the saint for fighting for my toxic marriage, or something. So that’s why I included that imagery and it just came pouring out of me. I got the painting done really quickly. I sent it to the show. It did very well there. I’ve won several awards with it. It’s kind of like an icon for me. **Anne:** St. Kirsten **Kirsten:** Yeah, right.. **Anne:** Yeah, it was very, I don’t know if shocking is the right word that I would use for me. But because it just spoke to me so deeply of the imagery that I had experienced in my dreams. It’s interesting that the experience of this type of abuse, the details are all different for every woman, but this feeling of we were almost drowning in someone else’s filth. In a place where we should be safe. Like, yours was a psychiatric hospital. That’s a place where someone should be helping you. You know, technically. In a bathroom, it should be somewhere that you feel safe enough to just, you know, relax, I guess. But instead of that, you’re drowning in someone else’s filth. It is kind of a sanctifying experience. ## UNEQUALLY YOKED: A SYMBOL FOR MY FIGHT FOR OUR MARRIAGE & HIS APATHY **Kirsten:** It leaves marks on you. And those marks don’t go away. They can be transformed, but they don’t go away. **Anne:** The title is Flood Damage and that really, really looks like that. It was amazing. There were so many, like every single one I could talk about. Especially your, what are the ones called, Japanese ones, where you put yourself back together with gold? **Kirsten:** Kintsugi **Anne:** Those really spoke to me. But the second one I’d like to really focus on is called Unequally Yoked. So this is a painting of Kirsten with a yoke and she is yoked on one side. **Kirsten:** Yes, yeah. I have my neck in one side of the double yoke. **Anne:** Okay. Yeah. And the other one is just empty and she’s pulling this by herself. This one too, it just, I mean every one of your paintings just hit me at my core. But this one I spent so much time just observing and thinking about and processing my own things. Can you talk about this one a little bit? **Kirsten:** I did this painting, it’s probably my favorite painting that I’ve ever done, by the way. It really speaks to me still. I did it in 2018. I was divorced and just start to get back into trying to date. It was a vulnerable time for me. There was a lot of heaviness and loneliness at that time. And again, I’m not quite sure why this happens, but I had a dream about this painting and woke up with the image in my head already. ## YOKED WITH ABUSE **Kirsten:** So I couldn’t find a yoke to make the painting. When I did the reference photos, I put a very heavy beam of wood over my shoulders so that I could get that sense of weight and heaviness. I just have so much grief over the fact that I had two partners who were supposed to be my forever companion. In which that didn’t happen, and not only did it not happen, but I carried the brunt of the emotional work I carried the fight for our relationship. I carried their shame. Now I carry the weight of being a single mom and trying to deal with the damage that’s happening to my children. I just felt it so heavily. I think that it just needs to come out in this image. And you know in the scriptures, Jesus talks about a yoke and he says that his yoke is is easy and his burden is light. That if you’ll yoke yourself to him, you can make it through the things in life. But the yoke also connotes being tied to something. When you yoke yourself to something, that double yoke of the ox and team, you can’t move unless they’re moving. And if they don’t move, you have to drag them. So there was a lot of feelings and symbolism in that for me. Then I put fig leaves around in the background to kind of represent some things that I feel about partnership, the Garden of Eden and that story of creation. ## EMOTIONAL RELEASE WITH A PAINTING **Kirsten:** Then I also added a, a wedding ring in the background. To symbolize the fighting for my marriage. I had a ton of feelings come out while I was painting this painting. Many times I actually had to stop and put it away because I would just start crying and I couldn’t see the panel I was working on. I would just have to put it away. But I think you can feel that when you look at the painting. One of the cool things about seeing artwork in life as opposed to just a picture online. You can really feel the feelings that were poured into a piece. **Anne:** That is what is incredible about excellent art, is that you painted it and put in the work. But it seemed like it was painted just for me. And for all the members of our community who can imagine that feeling of being unequally yoked, and then having to carry the burden of the lack of a partner, I was fighting alone for my marriage. I really appreciate your art and your talent. And so many women have gone through this and they’re, so incredibly talented and you are one of those amazing talented women. Here is her website so you can look at the paintings yourself [www.kirstenbeitler.com](https://www.kirstenbeitler.com/ "www.kirstenbeitler.com") ## BETRAYAL TRAUMA RECOVERY GROUP HELPS VICTIMS IDENTIFY “MEATLOAFING” & OTHER ABUSIVE TACTICS **Anne:** I would really encourage you to go take a look at her artwork. Hopefully it will speak to you as it spoke to me. Can you talk a little bit about how the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group](https://www.btr.org) has helped you to heal? **Kirsten:** Absolutely. This community, this idea of community and sisterhood is one of the things. I’m not exaggerating that I say actually saved my life and my sanity. It started for me when I don’t know how this happened. I wasn’t looking for it, I was just online looking how to fight for our marriage and save our marriage, and then suddenly it was there in front of me. It was a tender mercy from God. The loving compassion I felt because you all knew exactly what I was going through. I didn’t have to say anything or do anything. I am enfolded in love. And from those groups came some of the best and truest friends that I’ve ever had in my life. They saved me. They walked with me through horrendous things. And I’ve been able to be there for them too. Finding BTR filled so many holes in my heart because I didn’t feel like a freak anymore. I didn’t feel alone. There was at least one woman whose story was so similar to mine that I knew, okay, this isn’t just because of me. This isn’t just because of how broken I am. This is happening to other people too. It was such a relief. It was such a relief to me. Not that you would ever want anybody to go through that, like you did, but just to know that it’s not because of you. I’m always grateful for the BTR community where something horrible is turned into something holy. ## THE FIGHT FOR OUR MARRIAGE LED ME TO CLEARING UP THE FOG OF ABUSE **Anne:** Yeah, it’s amazing how much our Shero community has evolved over the years. We’ve all evolved together to be like, that didn’t work, right? Like, Oh, he may be an addict. There’s no question about that. But what we were experiencing the entire time was abuse. We didn’t know that back then. Sometimes because we are focusing on fighting for our marriage, we don’t realize how much we are suffering. It’s so nice to come out of the fog and be able to define it and help other women so that they don’t have to go through the, you know, 10, 20 year process, seven, however long it was process of figuring that out. Figuring out how long to continue the fight for our marriage. **Kirsten:** Oh my goodness. And thousands and thousands of dollars worth of therapy and agony. **Anne:** The cool thing is because we’re all together now and because we’re continuing our healing journey together. We are still evolving and we still don’t know what we don’t know, right? We still are there for each other and when one of us has an epiphany, all of us have an epiphany. ## THE FIGHT FOR MY MARRIAGE TURNED INTO A FIGHT FOR WOMEN EXPERIENCING ABUSE You know, it’s like, oh, why didn’t we think of that before? So it’s a really amazing community to be a part of, to see it evolve. Because our true desire is for safety, truth and peace. We are evolving to be more gentle with each other and more kind and more understanding. Yet also more fierce in our boundaries and more fierce in our belief in ourselves and what we deserve and that we are worth it. So it’s, it’s a mix of like, amazing bravery and also this incredible vulnerability at the same time. That to me is just the most amazing army of healthy women who can help bring other women out of the fog of abuse. **Kirsten:** Absolutely. You know, none of us are perfect. We’re all still learning. We’re learning from each other every day. There are so many people that have so many different opinions about everything, but still working together. To try and clear everybody’s mind, you know. We can come out healed, and it can happen, and it does happen every day. **Anne:** Well, thank you for sharing parts of your story and some of your talent, especially with your Meatloaf metaphors. And your, fight for your marriage. You’re amazing, Kirsten. Thank you so much for coming on today’s episode. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Why is My Husband Constantly On His Phone? - The Research](https://www.btr.org/why-is-my-husband-constantly-on-his-phone/) **Published:** January 21, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** If your husband is constantly on the phone, here's what you need to know. **Content:** Do you feel like something is “off” with your husband? If you’re asking, “Why is my husband constantly on his phone?” Here’s what couple therapists or clergy won’t tell you. Dr. Hastings and Dr. Lucero Jones are on the podcast talking about their groundbreaking research on how a husband’s pornography use affects his wife. You deserve support, learn about [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions.](https://www.btr.org/group/ "Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions.") ![My Husband is Constantly Looking at His Phone](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/My-Husband-Is-Constantly-Looking-At-His-Phone.webp "My Husband is Constantly Looking at His Phone")## 4 WAYS TO FIND SUPPORT WHEN HE’S CONSTANTLY ON HIS PHONE - [Listen to The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/betrayal-trauma-recovery/id1118969643) - [Attend a BTR.ORG Group Session](https://www.btr.org/group/) - [Meet with a BTR Coach for an Individual Session](https://www.btr.org/individual/) - Call a safe person to share your feelings. ## NO MATTER WHAT HE’S DOING ON HIS PHONE, YOU CAN CHOOSE EMOTIONAL & SEXUAL SAFETY Here at BTR.ORG, we understand the overwhelming chaos you feel when you discover your husband is constantly on his phone because he’s using exploitative material. Just brushing your teeth can feel like an insurmountable task. Try to remember to give yourself grace as you process this new information, and give yourself the space to create emotional safety for yourself, rather than immediately “working on the marriage”. ![Why is My Husband Constantly on His Phone](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/why-is-my-husband-constantly-on-his-phone.webp "Why is My Husband Constantly on His Phone")## TRANSCRIPT: WHY IS MY HUSBAND CONSTANTLY ON HIS PHONE? **Anne:** I have Dr. Heidi Hastings and Dr. Rebecca Lucero Jones on today’s episode. Dr. Hastings recently completed her PhD in family studies at Texas Women’s University. Her research is on religious women who married men who are constantly on their phones using exploitative material. Dr. Lucero Jones is a practicing marriage and family therapist and professor of marriage and family therapy at Texas Women’s University. Together, they have researched women who have experienced betrayal, and I’m so excited to share their research with us today. Welcome. **Heidi:** Thanks, Anne. We’re happy to be here. **Rebecca:** Thank you. We’re glad to be here. ![Why is He Constantly on His Phone](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Why-Is-He-Constantly-On-His-Phone.webp "Why is He Constantly on His Phone")## RESEARCH FOCUS: RELIGIOUS WOMEN & BETRAYAL WHEN HE’S ALWAYS ON HIS PHONE **Anne:** So in your studies, you develop the five stages of betrayal and self development. Why don’t we start there? **Heidi:** So we are interested in the experience of religious women when their husbands are always on their phones. We recruited women from non-denominational Christian religions, from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, several Protestant Christian religions, fundamentalist Christian religions, Jewish religions, and we had one Muslim participant, and Catholic. We also had a few women in different religions who moved towards spirituality instead. ![My Husband is Constantly on the Phone](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/My-Husband-Is-Constantly-On-The-Phone.webp "My Husband is Constantly on the Phone")So, our range of religious representation here is pretty broad. **Rebecca:** We conducted interviews with 31 women of various denominations and sects of different religions, and wanted to understand their experience as a whole and understand the process they go through. Maybe even before they find out that their husband has some sort of compulsive behaviors. Then what happens afterwards, and kind of where do they eventually land. As we asked them these questions, they told us their stories of their experiences of discovery that what’s he’s always doing on his phone is looking at online exploitation. And also of how they coped and what happened with the marriage. What kind of help they sought out. Their experience with their religions, religious leaders, other family members, friends, just anybody in their social circles. From that, we developed this model that showed us that there were actually five distinct stages that women went through. But we also noticed a lot of self-development throughout their healing process. ## WHEN HE’S ALWAYS ON HIS PHONE: UNDERSTANDING RELIGIOUS & CULTURAL SCRIPTS **Heidi:** So the first stage is religious, family, and cultural scripts. Which scripts are, if you think about a play, somebody gets a script that tells them this is how they behave. Before the discovery that their husband was using his phone for secretive things, often even before marriage. This understanding from a religious perspective facilitated her creation of beautiful, yet innocent core beliefs. About herself, her marriage, her faith, and her relationship with God. ![My Husband is Always on the Phone](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/My-Husband-Is-Always-On-The-Phone.webp "My Husband is Always on the Phone")Her personal identity was often [abandoned](https://www.btr.org/spousal-abandonment-syndrome/), for the couple’s identity created at marriage. While these women had innocent beliefs that are beneficial to many women. For women I interviewed, their innocence later proves problematic. ## INNOCENT BELIEFS & THEIR CONSEQUENCES WHEN HE’S ALWAYS ON HIS PHONE **Heidi:** So the things that religion brings to many beautiful marriages. Actually compromised some parts and made them susceptible to danger, abuse, and trauma. They described these initial innocent beliefs as naive and shallow, shameful or confusing later on. Their naivety was also seen in women who knew about their husband’s constant phone use before marriage. So we did have several women for whom it wasn’t secret. ![He is Constantly Looking at His Phone](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/He-Is-Constantly-Looking-At-His-Phone.webp "He is Constantly Looking at His Phone")Most of the time, they tell her it’s not a big deal. I’ve taken care of it. It’s no longer an issue. Or they tell her, and the women believed when we marry, we can have all of it we want. So the desire to use their phones constantly isn’t going to be an issue anymore. It’s just going to go away. **Anne:** Marriage is going to be the solution. **Heidi:** Marriage will be the solution, yes. ## MARRIAGE MYTHS & REALITIES WHEN HE’S ADDICTED TO HIS PHONE **Anne:** That is a common myth. That even sometimes church leaders perpetuate that marriage will solve his constant exploitative content problem, or maybe his immaturity problem. If he’s immature, he should probably just get married. And then he’ll be fine, rather than wait a minute, solve the problem first. **Heidi:** Exactly. So even those women who knew he uses his phone constantly to access it ahead of time truly underestimated the problem. So each of the women in our study had a unique belief system and path leading to the discovery of how problematic it truly was. ![My Husband is Always Looking at His Phone](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/My-Husband-Is-Always-Looking-At-His-Phone.webp "My Husband is Always Looking at His Phone")But there were many common characteristics that describe the process. That most of the women went through in this stage. Their naive beliefs about gender, and God, really influenced their understanding at this point. ## NAIVETY ABOUT WHAT HE’S REALLY DOING ON HIS PHONE **Anne:** When you say naive, it sounds like victim blaming. But not simultaneously, right? **Heidi:** That’s why we also use the word innocent, yes. **Anne:** Innocent, but also maybe even faithful. **Heidi:** That’s a good point. **Anne:** They believed what their church leaders told them. If their church leader said, “if you obey the commandments and if you marry a “good guy”.” Under these circumstances, your marriage will be good. They checked all those boxes and had faith, thinking, “I did everything I was supposed to do”. It wasn’t a naive thing. I listened to my leaders and did what they said. I wasn’t naive, I had a college degree.” **Rebecca:** The reason we chose the word naive is that it is the word the women use. So many times with this research, we try to use the words of the participants. So we capture their experience as they experienced it. And I think maybe that is a resentment towards your earlier self, right? At that time, I just listened to my leaders, and I let them tell me what was best, and I ignored my gut. ![He is Always Looking at His Phone](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/He-Is-Always-Looking-At-His-Phone.webp "He is Always Looking at His Phone")So I think there might be a little bit of resentment when they’re using that word. I think you’re right. That whether we use the word naive or faithful, it’s capturing this thing women are often taught. That they are better women. You’re a good woman. If you’re more innocent, pure, you believe, faithful, and we are taught to listen to leaders. ## RELIGIOUS LEADERS’ INFLUENCE Rebecca: Many times, in the religious context in which many of these women operate, we have quotes from the women. Where they met with a pastor or church leader, or not as much with the rabbis, but with different leaders. And they were directly told to submit to their husbands that their husbands will lead them in this arena. That they would be safe, and that their husbands knew what they were doing. So you’re right, many women did, I would say, appease their husband’s requests. That they went along with these things. Because religious leaders are directed to listen to their husband or that they could trust their husband. **Heidi:** Particularly for those that aligned with fundamentalist religions. And they had innocent or naive beliefs about what he’s constantly doing on his phone. And that’s just that it’s bad, that’s all they knew. This is bad, people who view it are bad. And that was an incomplete understanding they later identified. ![My Husband is Always on His Phone](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/My-Husband-Is-Always-On-His-Phone.webp "My Husband is Always on His Phone")**Anne:** Also a lack of education about emotional and psychological abuse, coercion, and rape even. So with that lack of education that the religion didn’t give them. They didn’t say, okay, we’re going to teach you about marriage. But also read the Bible and read this book about abuse before you marry? There wasn’t that. So in terms of abuse education, they didn’t have the exposure to it. ## LACK OF EDUCATION ON ABUSE & COERCION **Heidi:** Well, and even one step further, they didn’t even have education surrounding sexuality. They entered it in a very pure and innocent way. Often expecting their husband to guide and show them the way. Which most men had constantly watched it on their phone and it was their education, and there’s just a big dissonance. **Anne:** Abuse is their education. **Rebecca:** And I would say not only not being aware of rules of consent, but also knowing about abuse. But also not having a road map for healthy intimacy. Because many times in religions, it’s like no intimacy. And then suddenly it’s a free for all. And you’re just supposed to know what that looks like. So there’s no road map for what healthy looks like. ![Why Is My Husband Constantly On His Phone?](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/bV3mhCAOAOA/maxresdefault.jpg) And I will say in the interviews, it’s clear within the religious context. The message women receive is say yes to everything. There is no consent. So church leaders teach them to say yes to everything. So you don’t have any agency within the relationship. Your husband will take care of you. Just trust him. So I would say even basic things like agency, consent. Learning how to figure out what feels good in your body is very important. There’s a real absence of that in the religious context. ## RAPE & LACK OF CHOICE WHEN HE USES HIS PHONE ALL THE TIME **Heidi:** One Catholic woman reported that in her Pre-Cana, which is meeting with the priest before her marriage. Her priest said to her, “Your husband has a right to have it”. He has a right to conjugal visits, and you can’t say no. And in hindsight, she was horrified that he’d used the word conjugal visits. Like it was a jail or a prison. **Anne:** If you can’t say no, that priest is saying your husband can rape you. **Rebecca:** That’s the sad thing, right? This is often the arrangement of the marriage. Consent is not even part of the equation. There’s no equity in the relationship, there’s no freedom. **Anne:** You have the right to say no, which you technically do have the right to say no. But they don’t think they do. Which is rape. Rape is being supported by these religious scripts. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) **Rebecca:** A lot of them, it was not happening. But there were definitely some of our participants who said, looking back, this was definitely abuse. This was definitely rape, but at the time they couldn’t see it. Because they marry with a larger social script saying, you always say yes. But how do you say yes? If you always have to say yes. You can’t, it doesn’t mean anything. **Anne:** It is the definition of rape, and nobody taught him that. If you can’t say no, it’s rape. ## TRUSTING WITHOUT TRUSTWORTHINESS **Heidi:** We definitely had some participants who realized that later, but they didn’t even understand it at the time. Because through religious messaging, they had such explicit trust in their husbands. That allowed them to be really emotionally, and physically vulnerable. It gave them a false sense of security, because they thought their husbands would be loyal and faithful. Especially when they belong to the same religion. They had so much trust for them that they made these naive assumptions. And the assumptions were that they’d be trustworthy, monogamous, exclusive, they’d avoid it. Even though there wasn’t any behavioral evidence for doing so. And they assume their relationship would be healthy, robust and intimate. Which many of them were the exact opposite, but they relinquish power. Knowingly for some women because they’ve been told to, but for others they unconsciously yield to his needs. For his preferences, and they didn’t know their own. Many of them started to be silent. **Anne:** Well, it’s interesting to me that victims don’t recognize they are doing that for emotional safety or psychological safety. Because of her emotional safety, her financial safety depends on him. They are really weighing out the pros and cons of, is this safe for me to do, is this not? If I don’t have it with him, he’s going to be angry. ## WHEN HE’S CONSTANTLY ON HIS PHONE DOING HARMFUL THINGS, IT’S AN ABUSIVE SITUATION **Anne:** He might yell at me. It’s going to be scary. And that’s why this kind of use, at least the way we approach it here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, is a domestic abuse issue. Because if you’re coming at it from a place of fear. And the reason why you’re agreeing is because you’re silenced, afraid, or you feel like you have to. Then, you’re in an abusive situation. And so many women have these concerns and worries. They don’t know to define it as abuse. Did they define it as abuse in the study? **Heidi:** In this first innocent stage, specifically, the kind of relationships or abuse you’re talking about weren’t on the forefront of their mind. That comes later on, but I would say very few saw it as abuse. Some did after some work with coaches, but largely at this point, no. **Anne:** Well, that’s what I see too. **Rebecca:** When we recruited our participants, we found that over half of the men have extramarital behaviors. So it isn’t just exploitative content. Women are not saying, oh my husband looked at one picture. He’s got a problem, and they’re making a big fuss of it. Women are complaining because there is a lot going on in the background. There is a lot of lying, there is no intimacy. There are many problems in the marriage that make a woman say, “Something’s off here”. Something’s wrong. It’s not just he looked at some pictures, right? ## THE CRISIS STAGE BEGINS WHEN YOU DISCOVER WHAT HE’S DOING ON HIS PHONE **Heidi:** That said, we did have one participant, probably her level of PTSD was one of the two or three highest in all of the group. And she had just seen one picture her husband had looked at. They were Christian missionaries in the mountains of Mexico, and that put her over the edge. The idea of this innocence then shifts into what Anne was saying through stage two, which is crisis. **Anne:** We talk about this one man somewhere who might look at it and be a nice guy. The women who come to BTR, none of them have that experience. It’s that they try to get help, they try to figure it out, and no one told them it was abuse. That’s why it’s [the best support for betrayal trauma](https://www.btr.org/best-support-for-betrayal-trauma/ "the best support for betrayal trauma"). And so they couldn’t find their way out. Because it was more like put your shoulders to the wheel sort of thing. Like help him with his addiction and stand by your man kind of stuff. And at least from the women I’ve sampled, which is not everyone, but it’s never just this one time this guy looks at this one picture. So for that woman in the mountains, there’s probably so much abuse going on that she didn’t even realize, lying, gas lighting, and psychological abuse. Which is why she reacts the way she did She might not have even been aware of it when she described it to you. Which is so hard, because women who don’t have abuse education can’t describe what it is. It makes it hard to grasp what’s happening, because they’re not going to say, yes, this was psychological abuse. ## OUT OF BOUNDARY BEHAVIORS **Rebecca:** I think you’re right. I mean, anytime I have someone coming in and discussing any sort of, it could be texting, it could be a picture. I can never know the depth of what’s going on because many times people will come and catch somebody. Or somebody disclosed some sort of behavior. That’s outside of, I would say what we call the marital contract, right. **Anne:** There’s boundaries or something, yeah. **Rebecca:** That they have set, right. Every couple may have different boundaries. But whatever boundaries they’ve set, there’s some sort of behavior outside of that, and as a therapist, I always have to remember. I can never know whether they’re being honest with me. Like you said, there could be many behaviors going on. But if the woman is desperate to save the marriage. She will also not create a narrative for the therapist that says, yes, he looked at this picture. And there’s also this thing where I don’t feel like I can do what I want. Also, I don’t have agency in my life, and I don’t have control of my finances. Many of that stuff takes time to come out. And so it is hard, because there’s so much invested in saving the marriage. Sometimes, one, the man is not honest, he’s hiding something. And two, the woman does not know about the things she’s experiencing. **Anne:** She can be completely honest. She’s just not educated about abuse. **Rebecca:** Yeah. ## RECOGNIZING HIS BEHAVIORS ARE ABUSIVE **Anne:** What I’ve seen most of the time. If I say, did you know that’s abuse? They’re like, what? Well, he’s not punching me in the face. So as they transition to stage two, let’s talk about that now. **Rebecca:** I’ll talk about that. Stage 2 we named crisis. This is often where things are starting to unravel for the woman. So one of the first things that happens for her is that she notices something isn’t right in the marriage. So it can be that her husband is withdrawing. Many women talk about how it starts to not happen as much or at all. Maybe she buys new lingerie and he has no reaction. It could be other behaviors, but she is noticing that something isn’t right in the marriage. Something is off. And so often, when this happens, she may try to compensate to stabilize the relationship. So that can look like doing acts that maybe before she wasn’t willing to do. It can look like offering herself up at different times that she wasn’t wanting to. That can look a lot of different ways . ## THE TRAUMATIC IMPACT OF HIS CONSTANT PHONE USE **Rebecca:** And then one of the most important things that happens in the crisis stage is discovery. Sometimes men would come forward, maybe they listened to a sermon that made them feel guilty. And they may actually confess to their wives what has been happening. Then suddenly he’s like, actually, you know what, I have continued to do this. He’ll share that. And sometimes they’re walking in on their husbands viewing this stuff. And many times the women are having traumatic responses. Especially if she sees him in the act of masturbation while watching something. It’s very traumatic if she sees that happening in real time. **Heidi:** It was especially traumatic if she actually saw what he was looking at. Because most women imagine it as something that would appear in a magazine. But when she saw the severity, intensity, violence, whatever it was. That really created severe shock and trauma responses. **Rebecca:** A lot can come from that. A client stumbled upon what her husband had been viewing on his phone. And she was disturbed to find that the people he was looking at looked like her. And we had one person in our study who was Black, and I don’t remember the race of the woman he watched, but it wasn’t hers. ## WHEN HE USES HIS PHONE FOR OBJECTIFICATION OF WOMEN **Rebecca:** It’s interesting whether it’s someone who looks like you or doesn’t look like you. I think it triggers this thing inside of you. Where you don’t know what your husband’s attracted to. You don’t know if he marries you, because you’re his fantasy versus a real person. I think it just objectifies you either way. The meaning you make around that may vary depending on what he’s viewing. But either way, I think the woman begins to realize that she’s questioning whether he sees her as a full person. Who he is engaging with versus these images. And so it’s very traumatic, and many women can’t speak. They literally cannot speak for 20, 30 minutes, an hour, they are completely speechless. They have visceral reactions in their body. Some of them talk about feeling the life drain out of them. Some of them got very ill. We have some women talk about immediately feeling suicidal, where there was no suicidal ideation before this. So we see a lot of symptoms physiologically. Research shows that in Iraqi troops, rates of PTSD were as high as 35%. But we know that with those who experience betrayal trauma, the rates of PTSD can be even higher. And so I think that’s important. We do a lot in our country in America for veterans, because they experience PTSD symptoms. But it is important, I think, for clinicians, friends, families and those experiencing this, to know that PTSD is common. And many times we are not recognizing that with infidelity or compulsive behaviors, the partners are experiencing a bit of trauma. ## TRYING TO FIND EMOTIONAL SAFETY WHEN HE’S ALWAYS ON HIS PHONE **Rebecca:** This is something that many people don’t like to talk about. They talk about it as a relationship problem, not as a traumatic experience. So really, it is a crisis when the woman experiences this. Because it’s not just, Oh, we got marriage problems. She’s also having a very physiological response to learning about her husband’s behaviors. When the crisis hits, many times women don’t know how to proceed. No one’s prepared them for this. And so many times they’re in a hurry to keep themselves safe, and that makes sense. **Anne:** That’s what we do here at BTR, strategic boundaries! This is why I wrote [The Living Free Workshop.](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/ "The Living Free Workshop.") **Heidi:** BTR really does come in nicely in this stage and in the next stage. In fact, one of our participants mentioned nine times in her interview about BTR. Which is what helps us decide that it might be a good idea to talk to you. But one of the decisions they make often is that they’re going to have a lot of it with him to try to fix that. That’s not fully thought out. But it is one of the things that emerged in the interviews that is happening right after the discovery. **Anne:** Thinking that was maybe the cause, they didn’t have enough of it. **Heidi:** Right ## FEELING SILENCED & SHAME WHEN HE IGNORES ME TO USE HIS PHONE **Rebecca:** So following that, many women feel silenced. It is so hard for anyone, I think, to tell your friend that your husband has cancer. But telling him he has an addiction problem, strip clubs or seeing prostitutes is not on the list of things you’re going to share. Even with a best friend, even with family, there’s so much shame around this. And what it might say about the woman. There’s so much onus put on, like, well, you didn’t have enough with him. Those are definitely messages I think within the cultural context that these women are operating in. And so the shame just absolutely silences the women. So they’re in this crisis. Many of them talked about how much they’d been through in their lives. And this was by far the worst thing. We’re talking like a lot of painful things in people’s lives. And that this is the hardest. I think one of the reasons it is the hardest is because there is so much invested in their silence. Whether it’s the man in a church position or in the military. We noticed that many times these men had high profile positions. Whether they were in the context of the religion or outside, that made it feel impossible for her to disclose to anybody of status of what was going on. Because a lot of times it might hurt her. ## PRESSURE TO KEEP IT SECRET **Rebecca:** So like one person shared that her husband was a high ranking military personnel. She said she couldn’t disclose that he’s an adulterer. Because if he was caught for that, he might get demoted and kicked out. And she’s going to lose all her benefits, and she’s going to lose their military retirement. So there are really not many policies and procedures in place to protect women when men behave in this way. So we saw a lot of silencing of the women. That was something that I think kept them in a place of shame. **Anne:** How will I take care of my kids? How will I put food on the table? And those are really just typical, checklist definitions of domestic abuse. Heidi: Well, and those who weren’t afraid were necessarily embarrassed that it made them look like they weren’t enough. That they weren’t good enough in bed, that they weren’t a good enough person to keep their husband tied to them. Very complex decision making that goes on that keeps them silent at that point. **Anne:** Well, and that’s also the psychological abuse. They’ve been manipulated to think they’re not a good enough person. They’ve been manipulated to think they’re not good enough in bed, because he blames her for everything. **Heidi:** Sometimes during that crisis, they tried to tell a family member, they tried to tell a religious leader, they tried to tell a therapist that didn’t result in actual help. And so that’s in part what leads to this aftermath stage of, I’ve tried to get help for some of them. Some of them, I was the first person they’d ever told, but some had made attempts and It was hurtful rather than helpful. ## THE AFTERMATH OF BETRAYAL **Anne:** Yeah, we see that a lot here, yeah. **Rebecca:** So that leads us into our third stage, which we call the aftermath. In the aftermath, the woman is left with this severed trust and attachment. Many women give up a lot to marry and trust their husband. And then now their husband has let them down in such a major way. With the level of deception that has occurred, in the level of behaviors that have occurred without her knowing. Without her consent. And so many times in the wake of this betrayal, not knowing what to do at this point. Can they restore trust? Can this be fixed? And so with that comes not just the questioning of, I would say, the marriage, but a questioning of everything they once believed. ## QUESTIONING FAITH & TRUST **Rebecca:** Many of these women, because they’re religious and trust God, are marrying somebody within their religion. Many times that feels like they’re making the right choices. Especially when they’re caught off guard. It feels like, why didn’t God warn me? Why didn’t God help me learn this earlier? I mean, we’re talking to some women finding this out after 30 years of marriage. So it’s a long time to feel like God didn’t even give me a heads up. So many of them ask, you know, God, why’d you allow this to happen to me? Why did you allow me to marry him? **Anne:** Did you notice they also simultaneously said, and I don’t know if they did? But sorry, I’m just wondering. Because I see this a lot, that they also simultaneously said God kind of did warn them. Like they knew in their gut that something was wrong, and they couldn’t figure out what it was. Or did some of them just say they had no idea and it came out of nowhere? **Heidi:** I think that’s where that something isn’t right comes in. They knew something was not right in that second stage of crisis. **Anne:** They just didn’t identify it as a spiritual warning maybe? ## CAUGHT OFF GUARD **Rebecca:** I wouldn’t say they knew. Because I’m going to guess that many of these women are the praying kind. And I would say that if they feel something is off. Then I would imagine they would ask God about that. So I did not get the impression, that inclination, that something’s off from God. I feel like they, many of them, felt pretty abandoned in the moment of the crisis. And many times, because for some people, the lies were severe. There was one person whose husband was with 300 prostitutes. So we’re talking about a lot of lies. And I think it’s so different from their relationship with God. They’ve probably felt like they’ve received answers from God. And that it’s probably why they feel abandoned. Because they’ve probably felt guided by God in a lot of areas of their life. And then now they’re finding out there are all these secrets in this part of their life. And I think that is probably what makes it not make sense. How’s God been helping me in these ways? But with this major thing, I’m totally caught off guard. And many women are caught off guard. There were some people who were not from the U.S., from Europe, and some Jewish women. And I would say in those cultures, this kind of viewing is considered more normative. And so many times they are still caught off guard. Because they were taught to watch it sometimes as a normal behavior. And then they saw their husband’s mental health really decline, and physical health even declined because he’s always on his phone. ## SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCES AMIDST CRISIS **Rebecca:** Sometimes they’re even shocked to discover it. And again, I think it’s because in their minds, they didn’t know what he was doing on his phone. So even those women raised in a climate where using a phone all the time wasn’t a big deal still experienced a level of shock, which is interesting. **Anne:** Yeah, that makes sense. **Rebecca:** Yes. And so they were surprised to see that it was a big deal. So I think they were like, no, this can be a problem. It’s not, yeah, it’s not just pictures. **Heidi:** All this questioning is going on. There are many women who are also having spiritual experiences with God at this time. So we had both camps going on that they felt they had dreams, heard voices, felt a presence near them. They had these spiritual experiences going on. I don’t want to discount the women who weren’t going through a faith crisis of sorts because of this. But many of them questioned not only their faith, but they questioned everything they knew about their husband. **Heidi:** Okay, so if this isn’t true, what else isn’t true. **Anne:** Well, and they should in that moment. **Heidi:** Right? Their whole reality in every way. They couldn’t figure out what is real. **Anne:** He’s just shown himself as a compulsive liar. If they didn’t do that, it wouldn’t be normal. ## IGNORING GUT FEELINGS **Anne:** I’m still fascinated, and many women don’t, so this is not a new idea. But I just want to point out that it’s interesting that women don’t recognize their own gut feelings through the abuse, through the psychological abuse and the gaslighting and the institutional gaslighting going on. They don’t see it as God telling them something. So then rather than thinking, God’s trying to tell me something, I need to listen. I need to listen. They think, oh, I must be crazy. **Heidi:** And that’s a big thing that we heard. **Anne:** He’s telling me I’m crazy. My priest tells me I’m cuckoo. I asked too many questions. I just need to chill out, rather than think God is trying to tell me something. And then even after finding out. That something was wrong, rather than thinking, Oh, God did warn me. He was trying to warn me the whole time. They’re still thinking, I’m stupid. I didn’t see it. Everyone including my [husband says I’m the problem](https://www.btr.org/my-husband-says-im-the-problem/ "husband says I'm the problem"). That’s what makes me sad. Every place they turn to try to understand what’s happening or get help, they’re just kind of squashed down. Repeatedly over the years, which I think is like the culmination of the 20 years of trauma when they figure out what he’s been doing. It’s not just that one thing. It’s like the culmination of institutional abuse, the psychological abuse, and the societal abuse is like sort of coming to a head. And so that’s so painful. ## DEVELOPMENTAL LENS **Heidi:** Well, and also, because we’re looking at this through a developmental lens. We have to remember that in that stage of innocence, their ability to recognize that intuition, their ability to recognize maybe spiritual promptings is less developed. Than it becomes later through experience. So a lot of experiential learning teaches us how to be more attuned to our own agency to making choices for ourselves, to our own power as women. And at some stages, they weren’t experienced in that yet. And that comes with more experience. **Anne:** Well, and also the result of that, if you’re like, okay, well, my pastor told me it’s fine. So I guess that’s okay, because you haven’t yet seen the end result. So in that moment you think, Oh, I must be crazy. It is fine. I don’t know why I’m making a big deal out of this, because he is nice. Everything’s okay. What was I freaking out about? But then two years later, five years later, 20 years later, you’re like, Oh, this is what I was freaking out about, no wonder. But in that moment, because you don’t know what’s happening, it’s hard to wrap your head around it. **Heidi:** Yeah, they had no comprehension. ## COPING MECHANISMS & SEEKING EMOTIONAL SAFETY **Rebecca:** Many women were desperate to fix the marriage, to fix what was broken. So many times that’s trying to help him, help him overcome the addiction. Maybe having more. And many of them talked about how that was a strategy they tried to use. But it never worked, because the lack of it, was not the problem. And so a lot of desperation to fix things. Another important part of this was how women were coping. Some women were coping by using their religion or spirituality as a resource. Many of them spent a lot of time in prayer or meditation seeking solace. But then some other women had some, I would say, more maladaptive coping strategies like drinking. Many times, there were not many resources available to these women. **Heidi:** It’s mostly maladaptive, like starving themselves, focusing on their body. How it’s not good enough, screaming, yelling, trauma responses. **Rebecca:** As they’re trying desperately to fix it and salvage it. **Anne:** And I would say control is safety seeking. In a, I need some semblance of emotional safety, psychological safety. **Rebecca:** Many times, the women have not been able to do it on their own. So many times when we were talking about how this is too big, this is going to kill me. They can’t manage it. ## WHEN YOU FIND OUT: HANDING IT TO GOD **Rebecca:** And at that point, they’re ready to give it to God, because they cannot hold it. It is too big for them to fix it, fix the marriage, and fix what’s wrong with their husband. And so at this point, many of them are ready to hand it to God. **Heidi:** Or to just a level of acceptance. Some that didn’t necessarily align with God maybe thought more of it as a higher power. Or just acceptance that this was the state they were in and they couldn’t handle it. **Anne:** Just accepting the situation. Like, okay, this is a situation, and there’s nothing I can do about it. That kind of acceptance? **Heidi:** Right. I can’t control what has happened. ## HEALING FROM BEING IGNORED BY YOUR HUSBAND **Heidi:** So the fourth stage is healing. After they’re realizing they have no control over what has happened, they start grabbing hold of this power within themselves. It almost seemed like, and they start vulnerably breaking their silence. Many for the first time, they are desperate to find help, ask for help through therapists, sometimes through religious leaders or different religious leaders. Because maybe who they’d gone to before wasn’t helpful. But they in the past didn’t have the language to speak about these shameful topics. So many of the women started their learning process, their learning journey, their healing process through books, podcasts, websites, social media. Things that you have through BTR, anything that they could find on addiction or on betrayal, trauma, or infidelity. If that was part of their experience. They sought out support groups like yours. And the more quickly they broke their silence, they reduced shame. Which getting rid of shame was key to healing, the less time they spend in those crisis and aftermath stages. So some women had spent decades in crisis and aftermath, but finally, when they start learning and get hold of resources, they can start healing. And so we appreciate the work you do to help women heal. ## SUPPORT FROM GOD **Heidi:** Additionally, many women leaned heavily upon and reported receiving support from God, like I mentioned. But even at a different level, when they had religious leaders that would actually validate them, see them. **Anne:** Which is rare. How many of the 31 you interviewed had that? **Heidi:** I think many women went to several religious leaders, so they would find some that didn’t work, and then they would change congregations. **Anne:** So it’s hit and miss. **Heidi:** Find different pastors, it was definitely hit and miss, but there were some who had really phenomenal support from religious leaders. ## JEWISH WOMAN’S STORY **Heidi:** One that comes specifically to mind was a Jewish woman, who her friends said, “We’re taking you to see the rabbi”. And the rabbi happened to be a woman. And she said she pushed it away. She kept saying no, because she was so embarrassed. Her husband’s in a high profile position. But she finally went to see the rabbi, and the rabbi took her to the mikveh. Which is a sacred immersion in living waters in the Jewish tradition that symbolizes coming out of the Garden of Eden. And they enter the waters completely naked, immersing themselves back into the waters of creation for purposes of rebirth and renewal. Like a new start, we’re going to wash away all the corruption, all the negativity, all the pain, the suffering, and start new. And it didn’t happen immediately for her, but the step that that religious leader took to help her see that she was cared for. She was validated, that was so meaningful. And there were a few stories of women who had great experiences with religious leaders, typically that they helped women find resources. Not that they necessarily tried to handle it, control it, or fix it on their own. But they were able to access resources for the women to get them help immediately. ## LEARNING ABOUT ABUSE WHEN YOU’RE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT HE’S DOING **Heidi:** And then with that support that the women got, usually in groups. They learned how to set intentional boundaries that allowed them to feel more empowered, protected and safe. As you’ve said, one of the interesting findings in this stage. Or about betrayal, or relationships or even God in new ways, played a significant role in their healing. And in the reconstruction of their identity. Because they for so long during this crisis and aftermath stage, they didn’t know who they were anymore. Even learning for a new career or any kind of learning seemed to open up pathways of healing. This is the first time many of them start caring for themselves. Because they, for so long, had been conditioned to care for everyone else first. But once they started implementing those self care strategies, they recognized how much it could improve relationships with their children. Several women reported how art, poetry, music, dance, or any other types of artistic forms were key to their healing. Quilting was another big one. And perhaps part of that is because quilting is often done in groups of women and provides support in many ways. So those artistic forms brought comfort and understanding, coping and peace. And especially, I think, like I said, quilting. There are other things, dancing with other women, doing just movement. ## OTHER WAYS OF HEALING **Heidi:** So through these different forms of healing, they started to see their reality through new, more educated and experienced lenses. They started to see the injustices they’d experienced during this stage. And I think what you’re doing helps teach women. Help them also see, Oh my goodness, I didn’t even recognize that when I didn’t give consent, that could be rape or abuse. **Anne:** You mentioned a bunch of things they learned about, like addiction and other things. They didn’t mention abuse? They didn’t say I learned so much about abuse. **Heidi:** No, there were a few who said they had learned that their husband’s way of having it with them was abusive. That was about the only thing they saw as abuse. But many of them had talked about gas lighting, which I think you consider abuse, right? **Anne:** Yeah, because the person’s purposefully trying to alter their reality. **Heidi:** So they didn’t use that language, but they started, like I said, to see the injustices they’d experienced. And they started to see parts of the religious narratives that had contributed to the marginalization of women. And led them to assume they were responsible for their husband’s behavior. Which now they could see, Oh my goodness, that’s not truth. So as their self awareness expanded, they started to expand their self development and understanding of who they are and their own use of their agency. ## SPIRITUAL TRAUMA FROM HIS CONSTANT PHONE USE **Anne:** And spiritual trauma, that happens too, because it’s the opposite of what they’ve been taught. That if you just love, serve, forgive and self sacrifice, you’ll have enlightenment. And they’re like, well I did all that, and I for sure was not enlightened. I was, in fact, kept in the dark, and now I’m having more enlightenment than ever. And it’s focusing on my own interests. It’s a weird place to be, because it feels so good and freeing. And then also kind of like, but this is the opposite of what I was taught. So it’s also a confusing time, I think. **Heidi:** Because often I think in religious marriages, they’re taught, be one and sacrifice. ## WOMEN BEING IN SACRIFICIAL ROLES **Heidi:** And those things are truly important, but they’re important in a safe and healthy relationship. And I think the more we give women the language and power to do that. The examples, the more it’s modeled for them, the more they’ll take that upon their own way of doing things. But when you’ve especially seen a mother as a sacrificial role, we take that script and believe that that is the way we behave. **Anne:** Well, because if she tried to do anything else, people were like, you’re selfish. **Heidi:** Exactly. **Anne:** And it wasn’t okay for her to want to do something, which is sad. That was my personal situation with my abusive ex, because I was like, nope, this is what I want to do. And I’m going to do it. And I was the most terrible woman in the world because women aren’t supposed to be like that. They’re supposed to be kind and loving, and they’re supposed to sacrifice for their family. And yet his dysfunctional family was doing that, what they wanted to do. But instead of saying, Oh, I just want to do this, so I’m doing it. They were like, I’m doing this because I love you. And I’m doing this because I’m so righteous. And so, because I wasn’t apparently saying it the right way, you can’t just say it’s because I want to do it. I was actually not doing what I was supposed to do, apparently. ## SPIRITUAL ABUSE WHEN HE BLAMES YOU FOR HIS CONSTANT PHONE USE **Heidi:** There were several women during stage four, where they started to see things differently. They did talk about spiritual abuse. That they recognized it was going on in their relationship. I was thinking more, you’re talking about coercion and emotional abuse. But I would say perhaps the [effects of spiritual abuse](https://www.btr.org/effects-of-spiritual-abuse/ "effects of spiritual abuse") is what they most identified. Or at least spoke of during that stage, where they start seeing what’s going on. **Rebecca:** I want to add that anytime you’re in a relationship with someone who has any sort of spiritual authority over you. Which often, I would say, within different religions, the man is seen as a little like the head of the household. Or spiritual kind of leader in the home. Intimate abuse is spiritual abuse. Because if the person who abuses you has spiritual power over you, just by that alone. That person is a person through which your relationship with God is somewhat filtered through that person. So I think spiritual abuse is actually much more common than I think people actually talk about. **Anne:** Well, not just from the abusive spouse, but also secondarily through the help they might try to get from a religious leader. Who is not only aiding and abetting coercion, but also through spiritual abuse. Like this is what God would want you to do. And I’m your spiritual leader. And you need to give him it whenever he wants it. It’s super traumatic. Did these guys not go to their work, harassment training? **Rebecca:** While some of them have zero training, **Anne:** I know. **Rebecca:** That’s a part of it. **Anne:** But I’m like, maybe they should have learned about rape before they give women advice. ## UNEDUCATED MARRIAGE ADVICE **Heidi:** Well, I went through a similar situation, perhaps an issue, but it was three decades ago. When I learned he uses it. And so there weren’t the resources available. And yes, a religious leader told me that I needed to submit. I wanted to leave the marriage, and he wanted me to stay. And the religious leader told me that I needed to stay. And I knew he was wrong. But I did it anyway, for at least a while longer. **Anne:** Which amounts to spiritual abuse in that it was a way of coercing you to stay in an abusive situation. It’s really sad that that’s happening. And even though yours was three decades ago, it’s happening every day, all day long now. Which I’m still floored about. I’m like, what? Well, and it happened to me. I’ve been divorced for eight years, but I’m still shocked that women are coming to me, and it happened to them literally last week. Rebecca: He is not only in that position, but also a church leader who encourages you to stay in an unsafe situation. The real abuse happens when they use their power to give advice. They know you see them as an authority. They give advice that goes against what you feel God has told you. I think messing with your relationship with God really hurts you. That is the scariest part to me. A lot of times, they don’t know better. They don’t mean to put you in danger, but what they don’t know still hurts women a lot. This is a big problem. ## DOMESTIC ABUSE EDUCATION **Rebecca:** And they are usually the first people women go to. And then when they get that response, it doesn’t feel safe to go to anybody else. **Anne:** I would not only say it is going against women’s intuition, which is the most important thing, but also against just like literally basic domestic abuse education. And because they don’t have, or maybe they’re abusers themselves. And when I say basic domestic abuse education, I mean, what is psychological abuse? What is emotional abuse? What is spiritual abuse? Many people think they know what that is, because they watched Safe Harbor, the movie with Julianna Hough. And they think they know, Oh, yeah, he looks bad. And that’s what this looks like. I would know that if she walked in and had a black eye, but it’s not just her intuition. It’s also any domestic abuse expert would be like, check, check, check. This is checking all the boxes. It’s scary to me that they’re giving advice to abuse victims when they do not know what they’re looking at. But it’s also not surprising, because hardly anyone does. And so I have a lot of grace for them, because I was also in that boat where I had a master’s degree and was doing my best to be an educated person. I thought I understood abuse, but was in an abusive situation for seven years and did not know. ## GRACE FOR IGNORANCE **Anne:** Until I knew, and then I was like, Oh, okay, now I know more. And so that having grace for us not being educated about it and for other people not being educated about it is really hard. When it’s not like a class everybody takes in high school or something. Thank you for sharing that information about the healing stage. I’ve also seen that with the women who come to BTR. Okay. Let’s talk about the fifth stage now. ## TRANSFORMATION STAGE **Heidi:**[ The fifth stage is transformation, and that’s where the women start to take these ideas. The cognitive reconstruction of their reality and put it into action.](https://www.btr.org/recover-from-betrayal-trauma/ " The fifth stage is transformation, and that's where the women start to take these ideas. The cognitive reconstruction of their reality and put it into action.") They have changed these previously held beliefs, and now they’re going to do something about it. They start to see themselves in a very different way. In fact, one of the women I loved most said, after the betrayal, the words she said to herself were, I can think of nothing that’s the same. Because her reality has shifted so much. But after moving into this transformation stage, she said, I told myself those same words, nothing is the same. At first, those words felt impossible to fix, like everything was broken and would never heal. Now, she says, everything has changed. She talks about her identity and her love for herself. The women feel like they can be real, honest, and open in their relationships, especially with the friends they made in support groups. They spoke about healthy intimacy and how closely intertwined it can be with spirituality. The women talked about that. I want to learn about healthy relationships. It feels more intimate and spiritual now. Most women stayed in their religion, but they questioned and changed beliefs that didn’t help them during the crisis. This made them feel more vulnerable. ## RECONSTRUCTING BELIEFS **Heidi:** At this point, they built a simpler belief system with religion as the base. Their relationship with God became the focus. Instead of making religious rituals and beliefs the center, they focused on their connection with God. We call this their spirituality, and it all came from their relationship with God.. They were able to develop a deeper, more personal relationship with God. Or attachment to God, because they found God much more trustworthy than their husband was. A few of the women from different religions actually, and it was I think three or four women talked about longing for a female deity that had an equal weight to a male God. Not that replaced a male God, but that had an equal weight. That would elevate women to an equal status with men and could work together. And they loved that vision of that might model for their own current or future relationships. There were a few women who no longer felt they could worship in the same way. While most stayed in their religion, we had a few who completely left religion. There were some who changed locations and yet still maintained that spiritual aspect of religion that they’d gained belief in a higher power, belief in prayer, they started taking ownership of their preferences and behaviors. One of my favorite interviews had a Native American woman who stayed with a high ranking military officer for years. Because she would have been left with nothing financially. During this period, she just decided I don’t care. ## EXPERIENTIAL LEARNING WHEN YOU’RE TRYING TO FIGURE IT OUT **Heidi:** She moved back onto the reservation into her grandfather’s abandoned home. That had been abandoned for decades. And she, all by herself, with a Home Depot credit card, rebuilt that entire home. It had no running water, no electricity, and no windows. She felt cold and had hardly any money. But she built herself up. She loved that home and made it a safe place. She felt confident. And they became awakened to a more complete sense of themselves. They were able to, because they did that, reach new levels of intimacy, because they did that. To have true intimacy, we must know ourselves. They began to see life and God in a whole new way. They used their voices and their choices in powerful ways. The five stages show this model clearly. These stages match many human development stages in books. Experiential learning teaches us lessons we always remember. And in those advanced levels of experiential learning, we truly learn to help others and fill love at deeper levels. **Anne:** I love that I’ve seen that just anecdotally through my experience. But it’s awesome to know how hopeful the situation is, because it feels so dark and so awful when you’re going through it. I remember thinking when people say like, it’ll get better or something like that. ## POWER OF BETRAYAL TRAUMA RECOVERY GROUP **Anne:** I was so mad. I thought, you don’t know, you don’t know how bad it is. And people might say things like there’s a light at the end of the tunnel, something like that. I just was so angry about it. And now I find myself saying that same thing to others. And so I want to say, I know that it doesn’t feel good to have someone say, “You’re brave and you’re strong” and that you will come out of this, this amazing brave woman. It feels terrible, but there is so much hope. And I want them to feel that like deep, deep down inside. And if they can’t feel it, like I couldn’t, just maybe hold on to our words or maybe don’t be really mad like I was. Because I was just ticked all the time for a while and that’s okay too. **Heidi:** Groups help women see others going through the same thing. They can look at someone further along and think, “In six months or a year, I can be where she is.” Groups give women hope. Women see that if they stick with it and learn about boundaries, things will get better. They watch others in their group improve and feel encouraged. **Rebecca:** And I think another thing about groups that can be helpful is to see that women end up at all sorts of positions. It helps women see women end up in various places, and they feel happy and feel like they’re a better version of themselves. ## REBUILDING FOR THE FUTURE **Rebecca:** Healing can happen in many ways. And really, however, this plays out for any individual woman she’s going to have to be thoughtful and honest with herself. Am I safe here? I think it can be hard for women to trust they would be better off single. For some women, it’s hard to believe they can rebuild their lives, like fixing up a house, and take care of themselves to be happy again. It’s hard to imagine that in the middle of a big loss. This kind of loss isn’t just about losing someone you loved and spent years with. It’s also about losing the dream you worked on building together. And so to know that that isn’t possible anymore is heartbreaking. And there’s a lot to be mad about. **Anne:** Yeah, at [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/), it’s just safety first in whatever way works for you. I don’t know what that’s going to look like for you. And I don’t know what the safest course of action is. But all I care about is your safety. So how do we assess our emotional, psychological, and intimate safety? How do we learn to set boundaries. Learning about safety and making safety the priority, I think, is always to use the word safety again, a safe bet. Because you never know what’s going to happen, and it leaves the door open for any opportunity or situation safe. ## EMOTIONAL SAFETY WHEN HE WON’T STOP USING HIS PHONE CONSTANTLY **Anne:** My concern is that women often think they’re safe when they don’t understand safety, and haven’t been educated about it much. And so, my concern is to ensure they have the education they need. Rebecca: Safety builds the foundation for any intimate relationship. Without safety, manipulation can happen because vulnerability increases. Make sure safety comes first to prevent manipulation and abuse. Starting with safety creates a solid beginning for any relationship. Don’t skip that step. **Anne:** No, many people are like, Oh, [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/), they set the bar so high. And I’m like, it’s the lowest possible rung. You can’t set it lower. We’ve literally set it at the lowest possible place. I’m not saying he has to be a model, or he has to have an incredible job, or anything like that. No, no, no. I’m just saying he needs to be emotionally and psychologically, financially and spiritually safe. That’s the lowest bar. **Heidi:** That’s why identity was such an important part of this as they go through this experience. They learn about themselves, most of all, and how to navigate. Things in a way that keeps them safe and true to their identity. ## IMPORTANT WORK TO DO **Anne:** I’m so grateful that people are starting to do research like this. It’s awesome. Hopefully, people will continue to do more. So thank you so much for your work. It means a lot to all the women in the world. So thank you. **Heidi:** Thank you so much for letting us come and share with you. We love women. We’re champions of women. **Anne:** I am so grateful for Dr. Hastings and Dr. Lucero Jones for sharing their studies today. So thank you so much. **Rebecca:** Thank you for having us, Anne. **Heidi:** And for all the great work that you’re doing. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [The Best Way To Heal After Emotional Abuse](https://www.btr.org/how-to-get-back-to-yourself-after-emotional-abuse/) **Published:** January 28, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** If you're wondering how to get back to yourself after emotional abuse, Anne shares how she healed. **Content:** If you’re wondering how to get back to yourself after emotional abuse, listen to how Anne Blythe, M.Ed. came back to herself through writing, exercise, and boundaries. Do you need support through your healing journey? Check out our [Group Support Session Schedule](https://www.btr.org/group/ "Group Support Session Schedule"). ![Abuse Healing Quotes](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Abuse-Healing-Quotes.webp "Abuse Healing Quotes")## TRANSCRIPT: HOW TO GET BACK TO YOURSELF AFTER EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Anne:** A few years ago, I was doing an interview for [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast](https://www.btr.org/podcast/). There was this freaky Friday situation. and the guest started interviewing me. I wanted to replay a portion of that episode for you today. **Juliane:** What are some steps you’re taking and have taken that have helped you regain your own sense of balance? ## HEALING THROUGH WRITING AFTER EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Anne:** I’m a writer. Writing has been healing for me. I wrote every abuse episode that I could think of. Every instance of gaslighting. Every instance of emotional or psychological abuse helped me sort out what was real, what wasn’t real. It was like a hundred pages. It was crazy. When I started using that as a draft to write my book, because I want to give people concrete examples. Like when my [husband said he didn’t love me](/husband-says-he-doesnt-love-me/). I was so sick of my own story. ![How Do I Heal After Emotional Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Heal-After-Emotional-Abuse.webp "How to Heal After Emotional Abuse")I thought that was a good sign after emotional abuse. So instead of thinking, I have to prove that he was abusive, which is how I felt before. Now that I’m healed more, I don’t need to process that anymore. Now I’m deleting huge sections out of it, because now I’m thinking, which examples will help other women? **Juliane:** And you don’t have to prove why it was so crazy making for you. **Anne:** Yeah, totally. ## RECLAIMING PHYSICAL HEALTH AFTER EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Anne:** My no contact boundary is actually the most helpful thing to me. Because any interaction with him is insane, focusing on my own physical health has been good. I’ve always been really athletic, and everything went out the window the moment I married him. ![First Step To Heal From Emotional Abuse](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/aZj_YL19POM/maxresdefault.jpg) I didn’t ski anymore or mountain bike anymore. And I didn’t row anymore. I didn’t do any of the things I love doing. And now I’m getting back to that after emotional abuse. So I’m doing yoga every day and I’m weightlifting again. I may work at the ski resort the weekends when my kids are gone. **Juliane:** I love that phrase, by the way, coming back to myself. **Anne:** Yeah, and part of that was the abuse. And also part of it is that I have three kids under the age of six, and getting out of the house is really hard. They’re getting older now. My youngest was eleven months old when he was arrested. Time has helped a lot, too. It took a lot of time to process. I’d never taken an [emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/), I had no idea he was abusive. ## EMOTIONAL STRUGGLES & SUPPORT **Anne:** In fact, I just went through a pretty hard period. I went off my antidepressant, and decided I wasn’t emotionally eating anymore. So there’s about a month where I was crying every day. I mean, really bad, in the shower. At church, finding a room where no one was, and locking myself in there. Sitting on the floor, full on bawling my head off about everything that had happened. Because I didn’t have the crutch of food anymore, and I didn’t have my antidepressant. So there were some feelings that I hadn’t quite felt. My sister was worried about me. So was everyone else. I was like, guys, I’m gonna be okay. ![The Best Way to Heal After Emotional Abuse](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/yu4b-nA3gaM/maxresdefault.jpg) I just need to feel this right now. I’m not going to eat popcorn, and I’m not going to eat Oreos. I’m not going to take an antidepressant. I just need to feel these feelings that I was not ready to feel years ago because it was too much. It would have killed me if I had to feel everything simultaneously. So I used an antidepressant for years, and I ate a lot and gained a lot of weight. Which is fine. Both of those things are fine. Do it if that helps you. ## NAVIGATING SINGLE MOTHERHOOD AFTER EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Anne:** Now I’m stronger. Knowing even if you’re making progress, be gentle with yourself. Especially because [my husband is paranoid and angry ](/my-husband-is-paranoid-and-angry/)Because women, at least in my situation, have all kinds of problems. We have financial problems. What will we do for work? **Juliane:** A woman working with three children that are young on her own. I mean a round of applause for all the single working moms out there. It’s so hard to do that alone. Then, you’ve got these multiple betrayal traumas. That impacts you emotionally, psychologically, and physically. **Anne:** And they were coming from therapists. My clergy took his side. And friends, family, when I say family, I mean his family. This is not a small thing. ![the Road to Healing After Emotional Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Move-Forward-After-Emotional-Abuse.webp "How to Move Forward After Emotional Abuse")## CONSIDERING MEDICATION AFTER EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Juliane:** [No, it’s not. For me, five years out, I was still hurting. It was like the pain would come rushing forward with all the fear and insecurity. It’s a long process](https://www.btr.org/long-term-effects-of-emotional-abuse-in-relationships/ "No, it's not. For me, five years out, I was still hurting. It was like the pain would come rushing forward with all the fear and insecurity. It's a long process"). I love that you gave yourself the freedom and permission to just feel your feelings. **Anne:** Because I knew that feeling these emotions is important for me now. Women are strong, and they’re smart. We can think rationally through those decisions and make the right decision for you. And one of them might be, oh, I feel good. But now I realize my brain is imbalanced, and now I’m going on an antidepressant. **Juliane:** Absolutely, it’s there for a reason, and it wouldn’t work if we didn’t need it. Some women need it right away because of the trauma symptoms they’re having. I can’t eat, I can’t sleep, you know, the constant worry, fear and anxiety. And I’ve also seen fear get women through that period, because of all the adrenaline cortisol pumping through their system. It kind of keeps them on high alert, and they can get through the crisis. But a year or two years out, they kind of notice they’re slipping into depression and then need some support at that time. ![How Can I Heal After Emotional Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Can-I-Heal-After-Emotional-Abuse.webp "Can I Heal After Emotional Abuse")## THERAPY CHALLENGES AFTER EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Anne:** Absolutely. Yeah, I am not anti-medication. I just want to make that clear to everybody. Please go on it if you need it. This is where I’m at right now. **Juliane:** Well, kudos to you for all the hard work you’re doing and for the place you’re in. [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org) is taking what harmed you and turning it around. T[o provide support, encouragement and resources for other hurting women out there. ](https://www.btr.org/best-support-for-betrayal-trauma/ "o provide support, encouragement and resources for other hurting women out there. ")When I went through this, I never really bought into the co-dependency, co-addict model. It has impacted many women, and not for good. When I went through this, BTR helped so much. **Anne:** Yeah, [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org) doesn’t victim blame. That’s what the current recovery field misses. Is the abuse first of all. But also this bigger, wider discussion of misogyny, the Me Too movement and feminism. [Like, you might be going to a therapist who buys into codependency. Not realizing it’s a form of victim blaming, which is also misogynistic.](https://www.btr.org/therapist-codependency/ "Like, you might be going to a therapist who buys into codependency. Not realizing it's a form of victim blaming, which is also misogynistic.") So it’s so much bigger than just, “Does he look at it or not?” **Juliane:** Absolutely, absolutely. **Anne:** That’s one reason I wanted to start Betrayal Trauma Recovery. It was to talk about all these important issues in one place. Because I was not seeing that in a typical 12-step group or a typical therapist’s office. Oftentimes traditional therapy that tries to get to the heart of, “why he doesn’t feel loved” or whatever. Rather than recognizing, wait a minute, he is loved. He can’t feel love because of his misogynistic attitude. And his feelings of entitlement and those aren’t going away. ![After Emotional Abuse is Healing Really Possible](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/After-Emotional-Abuse-is-Healing-Possible.webp "After Emotional Abuse is Healing Possible")## THE IMPORTANCE OF EMOTIONAL SAFETY **Anne:** The more therapy he does, the more he feels like he’s a victim. So I always like to warn people. You don’t want to give an abuser a shovel by having him go to therapy. Where he creates a story for why he has an abusive character. Because he’s just going to dig his trench even deeper. Because we see all the time, therapy fuels his entitlements and feelings of being a victim. It makes it worse for the wife. That’s why at [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org) helping women be emotionally safe is the top priority. And that could look like many things. **Juliane:** Right, this is a woman who is violated. And there’s no sense of safety. So safety is of the utmost importance. **Anne:** Yeah, and at BTR that’s actually the bulk of what we see. That therapists don’t assess emotional safety first, and if they do, and the woman isn’t emotionally safe. They propose things like, share your feelings with the abuser. Or let’s communicate better with him, and that is dangerous. ![After Emotional Abuse How Do You Heal](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/After-Emotional-Abuse-How-Do-I-Heal.webp "After Emotional Abuse How Do I Heal")## COURT SYSTEM CHALLENGES AFTER EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Anne:** It’s like the civil court system. A friend of mine is going through divorce with an extremely abusive man. She can’t talk to him without being psychologically abused and blamed. That sort of thing. And in court, the judge said, Look, you guys are both professional people, work it out. **Juliane:** Oh, gee. **Anne:** There’s no way she can work it out with him. It’s impossible. So a therapist might think, Okay, you both seem intelligent. You both seem nice, let’s work together. And you’re thinking, we can’t coordinate or cooperate about anything without me being harmed in the process. Every time I try to communicate or resolve something, I end up gaslit and taken advantage of. Many people, lawyers, court people, clergy, and therapists, don’t have safety as the top priority. That has to be the top priority when any type of emotional or psychological abuse is involved. **Juliane:** Absolutely, we can’t have a healthy relationship with an unhealthy individual. Anne: This is why I created [The Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/ "The Living Free Workshop"), to help women get free of abuse. ![My Healing After Emotional Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/After-Emotional-Abuse-How-To-Move-Forward.webp "After Emotional Abuse How to Move Forward")## GIVING BACK TO WOMEN **Anne:** Thank you. That was fun to be interviewed for a little bit. **Juliane:** Anne, thank you so much for having me. It’s been a joy and delight. I feel like I could talk another couple hours with you, but thank you so much. I want to applaud you for all your work and how you’re giving back to women through this podcast. And kudos to you for writing your book and giving up buckets of popcorn. I wish you all the best. **Anne:** Thank you. ![How Do I Heal After Emotional Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-Will-I-Heal-After-Emotional-Abuse.webp "How Will I Heal After Emotional Abuse") **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Warning Signs Of An Abusive Therapist: What To Look For](https://www.btr.org/warning-signs-of-an-abusive-therapist/) **Published:** February 4, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Do you keep going to therapy, thinking the next session will help? But then it doesn't? Here are the warning signs of an abusive therapist you need to know. **Content:** Is therapy causing you to feel worse? Do you keep going, thinking maybe the next session will be the breakthrough? Here are the warning signs of an abusive therapist every woman needs to be aware of. Amy Nordhues, a victim of an abusive therapist, and author of [*Prayed Upon*](https://amzn.to/4heukTj), joined Anne Blythe, M.Ed. on [The ](https://www.btr.org/podcast/)[FREE](/podcast)[ Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast](https://www.btr.org/podcast/) to talk about the warning signs of an abusive therapist. [If you relate and need support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY.](https://www.btr.org/group/) ![Red Flags of an Abusive Therapist](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Red-Flags-Of-An-Abusive-Therapist.webp "Red Flags of an Abusive Therapist")## TRANSCRIPT: WARNING SIGNS OF AN ABUSIVE THERAPIST: WHAT TO LOOK FOR **Anne:** Amy Nordhues is on the podcast today. She’s a survivor of both childhood sex abuse and abuse as an adult at the hands of a mental health professional. She is a passionate follower of Christ and expert on the healing God provides. She has a B.A. in psychology and minors in sociology and criminology. Her devotions are in the Secret Place devotional series. Her memoir, *Prayed Upon*, won the Inspire Christian Writers Great Openings Contest for nonfiction and the Next Generation Indie Award for inspirational nonfiction. As a married mother of three, she enjoys spending time with family, writing, reading, photography, and all things comedy. We will talk about warning signs of an abusive therapist today. Welcome, Amy. **Amy:** Hi, it’s so good to be here. **Anne:** We have comedy in common. When I first learned about my husband’s lying and deceit. I actually started writing comedy to deal with it, like to process it. So I wrote a comedy blog for a few years that wasn’t showing what was actually happening. When my book comes out, I will actually publish that comedy blog in book form simultaneously. So that you can see what was happening. ![What Do I Need to Know About the Signs of an Abusive Therapist](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-Do-I-Need-To-Know-About-Signs-of-Abusive-Therapist.webp "What Do I Need to Know About Signs of Abusive Therapists")**Amy:** Oh, interesting. **Anne:** I think a lot of comedians use jokes to deal with their trauma. **Amy:** Yes. **Anne:** So maybe we’ll make a few abuse jokes today. **Amy:** Yeah. **Anne:** Oh, wow, don’t worry. My audience, my audience gets it because they’re all abuse victims. ## THE PASTOR’S WIFE SUGGESTED THIS THERAPIST **Anne:** So let’s start with your story. **Amy:** Yeah, I started attending Celebrate Recovery. I wanted to work on issues from past abuse and a disconnected marriage. I had depression and anxiety. And when I was in that program, the pastor’s wife became my mentor, and at some point she recommended I see this therapist. ![What Are Some Warning Signs of Abusive Therapists](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/what-are-the-warning-signs-of-abusive-therapists.webp "What Are the Warning Signs of Abusive Therapists")He was also a psychiatrist, which was good because he can manage my medications. He was an elder at the church where the Celebrate Recovery was hosted. I had just started attending there. So it seemed to line up perfectly. So I started to see him, and he was an odd character, more like a bumbling grandpa. Very Christian, wore a cross necklace, sweet, kind of goofy, and right away he played a father figure role. He learned that was something I didn’t have. So he played into that, and at first it seemed like an answer to prayer. It seemed like my depression was lifting. I started to see I guess you could say red flags in this relationship. **Anne:** At the time, what was your thought process? Did you know they were red flags? Would you define them that way? Can you talk about your thought process? **Amy:** In retrospect, I realized the red flags started from day one, and those things I didn’t see as red flags. I just thought they were quirky, silly, like he would get an afghan out of his cupboard. And like kind of match it to what clothing I was wearing. And then playfully cover me with it. Well, my alarm bells went off. But I certainly didn’t think this is a predator trying to weasel his way into my personal space or see them as warning signs of an abusive therapist. ## THE FIRST RED FLAGS: COERCED SHOULDER & FOOT RUBS **Amy:** I thought, this is just a silly, older gentleman therapist trying to put me at ease in an awkward therapy situation. He would bring me tea, and I didn’t see any harm in that. We both would drink tea during the sessions. So they were little things like that. And I brushed them off. But when he offered to rub my feet or shoulders for a Christmas present, I panicked, he’d never touched me in a session. He sat across from me in his chair, and the sad reality is that I didn’t think I could say no. I had voices screaming in my head, like, pick one, pick one, this is awkward, this is brutally awkward. ![What Are Some Warning Signs of an Abusive Therapist](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/what-are-warning-signs-of-an-abusive-therapist.webp "What Are Warning Signs of an Abusive Therapist")So I said, shoulders. He came over and sat next to me in the chair and started to rub my shoulders. And I panicked and said, “feet, feet,” just to get him away. And the touch felt creepy. Sadly, I say sadly, because now I wish I could have just stood up and left. But I kind of slumped down in my chair and put my feet on the ottoman, and allowed him to rub my feet. **Anne:** Because we reject victim blaming here at [betrayal trauma recovery](https://www.btr.org/), would you feel comfortable saying coerced rather than allowed? **Amy:** Yeah, I didn’t think no was a choice. **Anne:** Right, so that’s coercion, right? **Amy:** Do it quickly, and get it over with, or put it off. And then still do it. **Anne:** Right, and it’s coercion. **Amy:** It is coercion. **Anne:** This isn’t you allowing him to do this. This is you are coerced to do this because you feel like you have no other option. However, these were definitely warning signs of an abusive therapist. ![the Red Flags of an Abusive Therapist](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/red-flags-of-abusive-therapist.webp "Red Flags of Abusive Therapists")## THE PASTOR’S WIFE DIDN’T SEE THE WARNING SIGNS OF AN ABUSIVE THERAPIST **Amy:** Right. It was the most awkward, uncomfortable thing I could ever imagine. And on top of that, I felt like it was my job to make the room feel more comfortable for the discomfort he caused me. So, as we continue to talk in therapy, I’m like, look him in the eyes, ignore him rubbing your feet, ignore it. You’re making this worse, as if this is a problem I brought on. It’s just so unfair. I ran this red flag by my mentor. Again, she was an elder at our church, and she was the pastor’s wife. I wasn’t seeing it as a sinister red flag, but I was seeing it as a very weird red flag. And when I told her, she said, “He’s so sweet.” **Anne:** He was married at the time? **Amy:** Yes, he’s married. He was 65 years old. **Anne:** Okay, so he’s 65. He’s physically coercing clients and also emotionally and physically cheating on his wife. Another example of warning signs of an abusive therapist. **Amy:** Yes. **Anne:** And she’s saying he’s so sweet. This probably isn’t the first time she’s heard this then. **Amy:** After this whole nightmare ended. I learned another young lady, younger than me. Who she was also mentoring was sitting on his lap in sessions. So she was almost like a pawn in this whole scam. **Anne:** The pastor’s wife? ![Warning Signs of An Abusive Therapist](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/jUZiLsuSFNU/maxresdefault.jpg) ## THERAPIST’S GROOMING OTHERS TO DOWNPLAY INAPPROPRIATE BEHAVIOR **Amy:** Yes, I feel like because she suggested him to me. She knew this young woman, who committed suicide under his care 20 years prior, was sitting on his lap during sessions. **Anne:** What? **Amy:** Yeah, it devastated me. I thought, and you sent me to him. And I don’t think she was in on it with him per se. I think she was unhealthy. **Anne:** Right, she didn’t understand coercion. She didn’t view these behaviors as warning signs of an abusive therapist. **Amy:** Yeah, and believed the people going to him were so mentally ill. He was doing everything in his power to help them, and so maybe he had to try more unconventional means. **Anne:** There’s that. And the addiction industry in general, or therapists who work with addicts in general, believe addicts. So if an addict is sitting in an addiction therapist’s office. And the addict says, “Well, if my wife would do this, or if she would do this, things would be better.” Like if she were more kind to me or if she respected me more. And so it’s this racket where the addict husband and the addict therapist end up abusing the wife more and more over time. **Amy:**Yeah, and these predators, don’t start abusing victims until they have everyone around them adequately groomed. They have all the pieces lined up. He even had the confidence, even though it backfired on him. But he had the confidence to go after me, knowing I was good friends with the pastor’s wife. That’s how much he thought he’d get away with it. **Anne:** Absolutely. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## ISOLATION & EMOTIONAL MANIPULATION ARE SIGNS OF AN ABUSIVE THERAPIST **Amy:** I keep going, I think, yeah, he’s a little kooky and I let it go. We did a very odd spiritual type therapy, which just added to the confusion because I was a new Christian. There were many [effects of spiritual abuse](/effects-of-spiritual-abuse/ "effects from spiritual abuse") from him. was looking for [Christian help for infidelity. ](/christian-help-for-infidelity/)Then there was another huge red flag of an abusive therapist. I shared with him during one of my sessions that I imagined myself dancing with Jesus. Like a father-daughter dance at a wedding. That was not something I ever had, and how it was kind of a sweet thought. So the next time I show up for therapy, he says, “I thought we could dance.” And I just felt my face go beet red, and I just wanted to escape through a trap door. Again, leaving wasn’t an option. I figured it out quickly. Because you’re making this more uncomfortable by sitting here being uncomfortable. Again, the burden falls on the victim. **Anne:** Absolutely, think about an actual caring, empathetic person. Not even a therapist. They’re going to see that look flash across your face. They’re going to be like, “Oh, do you want to, how do you feel about it?” An empathetic person would have some type of awareness. **Amy:** Oh yeah. **Anne:** When your face goes red or when you look confused, abusers just plow right through that like, she didn’t say anything so I can move forward. **Amy:** I think I covered my face. I was that uncomfortable. In my head I’m thinking, you mentioned dancing, he’s trying to help you, it’s a therapeutic thing. He’s 65. And since standing up and walking away wasn’t an option. Number one, I thought that was rude. ## RESISTING ABUSE THROUGH “GETTING IT OVER WITH”: SIGNS OF AN ABUSIVE THERAPIST **Amy:** And number two, I was connected to him at this time. He made sure I was emotionally attached. He had isolated me more by this time. I really thought he was the source of me feeling better, getting better. So I made myself do it. It was brutal, and when it was over, I thought, this never has to happen again. **Anne:** I want to point out the resistance here. So as a victim, you are resisting through “getting it over with.” Victims think, why didn’t I stop it? And I want to point out that getting it done quickly, because you don’t think you have a choice, is a form of resisting abuse. So you are resisting abuse every step of the way here. Your face is turning red. You’re putting your face in your hands. You’re trying to be safe. So as you’re resisting, he has multiple times where he can make a different choice and not abuse you. But he just keeps manipulating you and pushing forward. Yet more warning signs of an abusive therapist. **Amy:** I appreciate you saying that, and feel like many of your listeners will understand that. I think some people judge harshly, and they think it’s really easy. You just stand up and leave, or you slap them across the face and you leave. They don’t understand the layers upon layers of manipulation that have already formed a web around you. ## CONTINUAL MANIPULATION & BEING AFRAID OR FEELING TOO GUILTY TO LEAVE **Amy:** That’s when they make bigger moves, when they know you won’t leave. When they know you’re too afraid to leave or feel too guilty to leave, whatever it is. And I ran that by my close friend, and again, she thought it was sweet. And then I worked up the courage to tell her that he touched an inappropriate body part while we were dancing. Something snapped in her, and she said, “I trust him implicitly.” And I knew in that moment I was on my own, so I didn’t share anything else with her. I thought, I will fix this relationship with the therapist. It’s just gone off the rails a little bit. Maybe it was my fault. It always feels like our fault. If I wasn’t needy and didn’t like the idea of a father figure, then I wouldn’t have caused these things to happen. And what’s really sad is that in therapy, you’re so vulnerable. I gave him the information he could use against me. **Anne:** Exactly. **Amy:** And when I’m providing the information and then he uses it against me, I feel like I’m the one who brought it up. But all I’m doing is going to therapy. It makes it extra confusing. Well, you said you imagine, well no. I didn’t say I want to dance with you or I want a romantic relationship with you. **Anne:** You were resisting abuse the entire time. Feeling in your gut that these are warning signs of an abusive therapist. So this is just an aside for comedic relief. And how is you cheating on your wife, helping me therapeutically? ![These Are Signs of an Abusive Therapist](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/how-to-see-the-signs-of-an-abusive-therapist.webp "How to See the Signs of an Abusive Therapist")## WANTING TO ESCAPE BUT MANIPULATED **Amy:** Oh, like, he’s going above and beyond to help me. And part of me believed it was a blessing that he was going above and beyond, but not at the time, I just wanted to escape. **Anne:** I want to point out more resisting abuse. So you go for help from your friend and you realize instinctively that she’s not safe. Even if you don’t have the words for it. And so you pull back, which is a form of resistance. At every step, you’re trying to figure out how to get out of this. **Amy:** Yes, it feels like you’re in a maze, and you hit this wall. And with telling her that, I hit that wall. That was one of my escape opportunities. I was counting on that one, too. I just was crushed when she said that. And then even more, it made me start thinking, no one’s gonna believe me. He’s a doctor, therapist, and church elder, and he’s 20 years my senior. Who else am I gonna tell? And if I tell someone who maybe hasn’t ever been in therapy or hasn’t had my specific issues. They’re gonna jump on me right away. They’re gonna say, it’s your fault because you went back. So then you’re more isolated, and then it keeps going, and sadly the abuser becomes the comforter, because he’s the only one who understands the abuse he’s inflicting on you. It’s a very twisted situation. **Anne:** And he is doing it on purpose, so that he can comfort you. He creates the problem so that he can be the solution, which is a very intense form of manipulation. ## THERAPIST’S ROMANTIC ADVANCES: HE TOLD ME HE LOVED ME **Amy:** Yes, it’s like who else is there? **Anne:** Mm hmm. **Amy:** He’s the only one left. And they can turn on the charm when they need to. I’ll skip to the end. There’s only a few more months of therapy, and my panic is just rising. At this point, he’s turning up the heat, and it’s he loves me and … **Anne:** Woah, woah. Turning up the heat, like he’s in love with you romantically? **Amy:** Okay, this is the way he weaseled into it. He had established himself as a father figure, right? And I feel he was stuck in that role. So he started saying the key was that my heart loves you like a father. But the teenage part of me loves you in a romantic way. Well, I didn’t know what to do with that. I was like, what does that even mean? And then I thought, well, maybe that’s how all males feel. **Anne:** Addiction therapists want people to think, oh, this is how men are, rather than this is wrong. **Amy:** Right? So I’m thinking, well, he’s not gonna act on that teenage part. He’s just admitting that, and that’s vulnerable for him to say. **Anne:** Also very creepy. **Amy:** Super creepy. I mean, I was in panic mode for days and weeks. Like coming home I’m just twirling my hair and pacing around the house like I don’t know how to digest this information. And again, I didn’t think we were on a trajectory towards abuse. I thought these were random incidences, not warning signs of an abusive therapist. So I thought, okay, he’s just fallen in love with this patient. ![What Are Signs of Abusive Therapists](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/what-are-signs-of-an-abusive-therapist.webp "What Are Signs of an Abusive Therapist")## GROOMING WAS A WARNING SIGN OF AN ABUSIVE THERAPIST **Amy:** Maybe that’s common for therapists, but he’s not going to act on it, he’s not going to do anything about it. **Anne:** When you say on the trajectory for abuse, you didn’t think you were on the trajectory. But even just talking now, he had been abusing you from the beginning. It’s like, I don’t realize this is where it’s going, but then I also don’t realize this has been the intent from day one. **Amy:** No, I have no idea that’s the intent. It never in my wildest dreams would I have thought he had an evil bone in his body. **Anne:** And that he’d been abusing you the entire time. Because grooming is abuse. It is one of the warning signs of an abusive therapist. **Amy:** Yeah, and I can remember when I got out saying, well, the first red flag was, and somebody who knew better saying, “No, no, no. The first red flag was on day one.” And then I started thinking, yeah, you’re right. I was groomed from the beginning. When you’re not a sociopath, you can’t think like a sociopath. And you’re empathetic. You give people the benefit of the doubt, and after I’d get over each red flag, it would go into the background. So each incident was unrelated to the next, I saw no pattern. Even when it was getting inappropriate, like, you can’t love me, you’re married. And you’re my therapist. Again, I didn’t think it was sinister. So I was like, Well, you’re gonna need to rein that in, and that’s not okay with me, and that’s not gonna work. But I didn’t see it as, this is all part of my master plan, to get you where I want you to be. ## INTENTIONAL ABUSE & ISOLATION FROM HUSBAND, ARE WARNING SIGNS OF AN ABUSIVE THERAPIST **Anne:** I think that’s the thing that is so difficult for victims, and therapists also don’t understand it. Is that it’s intentional when a wife goes in about her husband’s abuse. Therapists are like. Oh, he told me he didn’t mean that. He’s just bumbling around. Men know women don’t want to be abused. That’s why they can act nice and awesome. If they thought women wanted to be abused, they would be like, okay, I’m going to cheat on my wife. So men know they’re intentional. It’s the therapist in general, that don’t think that. And then this therapist intends to abuse you directly. **Amy:** Correct. He was the abuser. And he made sure to isolate me from my husband. So it was just him, him and me. And so it was fix it or leave. And for whatever reason I couldn’t leave. I know now the reasons. He had layered so many things, like he had told me so much about his personal life. Another warning sign of an abusive therapist. He seemed like a fragile individual. He said it would kill me if you ever left. I felt too guilty to leave. I thought it would kill him. He had stopped charging me for sessions. The reason I wasn’t super disturbed by it was that it happened at the first of the year when my insurance wasn’t paying. And I brought it to the attention of the secretary. I could see him smiling in the background. I realized, oh, he’s intentionally not charging me. And I felt like a pit in my stomach. I felt that uneasiness of that’s not right. ## NOT CHARGING IS A WARNING SIGN OF AN ABUSIVE THERAPIST **Amy:** And then I was like, I had told him how I was always told as a child. How expensive I was by my father. And how he’s trying to make me know that my worth isn’t based on any dollar amount. So again, he used something I shared with him in therapy. The other reason I didn’t fully panic about was that I knew my insurance would kick in a couple months. Literally in my head, I thought, It’s fine, Amy. He’s a doctor, I don’t think you’re going to bankrupt him. **Anne:** With other victims of therapy abuse. I’ve heard that before. It is a warning sign if they stop charging them. Maybe they do that so that they can claim they weren’t a client. **Amy:** Yeah, and also for me, it made me feel indebted. Money’s tight, and here he’s doing this for free. He cares so much more than the average person. **Anne:** I want to put that out to my listeners. If that has ever happened where the therapist stopped charging. Then when you made a complaint, if they said, well, she wasn’t paying me. So she wasn’t a client. Because this is my theory, if they’re aware of this ever happening, they would let me know. Because I wonder if this is a preemptive way to avoid losing their license. If someone reports them. The good news of having a community of victims is that we start to see patterns. So you can know like, Oh, if they stopped charging you, it could be a sign. **Amy:** Right. **Anne:** defend themselves or some other thing. In your case, so that you would feel indebted. **Amy:** An ethical therapist won’t ever stop charging you. ## THERAPIST’S PHYSICAL ADVANCE A WARNING SIGN OF AN ABUSIVE THERAPIST **Amy:** I can see there maybe some situation where you have to work something out, but it’s short term. I’m just saying it’s a red flag. I’m gonna just skip to the end. He weasels his way over to my side of the office to sit next to me. Because that has to happen before he can do anything else. So I was emotional one particular session, and he came over and sat across from me on the ottoman. And dabbed my tears with a tissue, which was embarrassing. It felt fatherly, but also embarrassing. But I told myself, it’s sweet, he’s just trying to be sweet. He’s just trying to be compassionate. Well, then he pretended he was uncomfortable sitting there. I didn’t want him to go back to his side of the office, because it was soothing to me. And this is after I’d been seeing him now for a year. So later, when he eventually assaults me, I feel like it’s my fault. And I don’t want to tell anybody because I’m so ashamed. I’m ashamed that I’m in therapy. And I’m ashamed that I wanted a father figure. I’m ashamed that I’m an adult and was duped. I’m ashamed for the parts I thought were my idea. Of course, none of it was my idea. But master manipulators use you in your own abuse process that is something to look for if you think you have an abusive therapist. It makes it confusing and maddening when you peel it apart and see that you weren’t responsible at all. ## RESISTANCE & CONFUSION ARE SIGNS OF AN ABUSIVE THERAPIST **Anne:** And that you were resisting the entire time, trying to stop it the entire time. **Amy:** Oh yes, and I was going in at the end in tears. Saying, “I can’t do this, this is hurting me. I need you to stop.” And he wouldn’t stop. For a long time, I was like, is he hurting me? I think he is. But then I got to a place where I was like, he’s hurting me, why can’t I leave? And it was a brief period, but it was confusing at the time, and I couldn’t break the tie on my own. Feeling like you can’t go to a different therapist is a warning sign. I just couldn’t do it. He would guilt me and cry. He would do something, and I would cave. So I again went to the only person I knew to go to my mentor, but this time I went to her spouse. I went to the pastor. And I told him, and he believed me. **Anne:** Oh, that’s awesome. **Amy:** Yeah, and he says, what do you need? And I said, I just need someone to sit with me. Because my therapy sessions, I’m embarrassed to say, had gone from one hour to two hours to three hours. **Anne:** See, that is another warning sign of an abusive therapist. They go over time. **Amy:** Huge, and you know I never asked for more time. He just surprised me with it one time. And I said, “Well, my time’s up.” And he said, “Oh, I was able to move people around to get us an extra hour.” ## EMOTIONAL ATTACHMENT & VOICEMAILS TRYING TO GET ME BACK **Amy:** Then I had the same pit in my stomach, and again I rationalized it. Okay, well cool, I guess more time is good. That’s okay. That’s nice. Then I got used to it, and it went to three hours at the end. At that point, I was so attached and so alone. Outside of this little bubble that he had created, that I almost wanted that time. Anyway, I tell my pastor everything. I say I need somebody to sit with me during my three hour session. Because I’ll cave, he’ll call, cry and guilt me. I don’t know. I just can’t break the tie. They did, they sat with me. But when that session was over, I knew at least one tie was broken and I wouldn’t go back. Now I remained attached, emotionally attached for months. The doctor called nine times and left nine voicemails, but I knew physically I wouldn’t return. That’s the other very maddening thing. I know the answer, although it’s hard to put into words. Why do we remain attached to people that we know are hurting us? Ignoring the warning signs of an abusive therapist. First of all, it took me a long time to see that this was grooming, this wasn’t love. This was never love. This was a man who liked to trap women in psychological cages and then torment them for fun. It’s so hard to wrap your mind around that level of evil that it’s just hard to get there and not rationalize the warning signs of an abusive therapist. That’s what I needed. I needed to know he’s intentionally hurting me. Because I felt too much compassion if it was unintentional, if he was just human, a man, just slipped or had just gotten in too deep. ## WARNING SIGNS OF AN ABUSIVE THERAPIST: EVIL INTENTIONS **Amy:** I could be more patient with those things, and I needed to see the evil, and I got a chance to see it at the end. **Anne:** I think all victims feel that way, so one thing I try to point out is that if you feel uncomfortable, his intentions don’t matter. Giving women permission to not worry about the intentions. To be like, you might be nice, but you, in your good guy form, makes me uncomfortable. Giving women permission to realize like, Oh, I don’t have to worry about his intentions. All I have to worry about is how I feel. This is one of the warning signs of an abusive therapist. **Amy:** Yes, and unfortunately I didn’t have the self-worth to think that my opinion could trump other people’s. Especially a pastor’s. Other friends that went to this psychiatrist and loved him and thought he was amazing. So I always dismissed my own gut instincts. And one thing I always like to point out is that my gut instincts were spot on. We aren’t naive, gullible, stupid and missing all these things. What we’re doing is allowing them to slip through. We’re minimizing them or rationalizing them. We don’t feel we can say no. Even though we see warning signs of an abusive therapist. **Anne:** I think we’re resisting it the whole time, and we’re trying to figure it out. I don’t think we’re rationalizing anything. We are resisting in the only way we know how to at the time. You were resisting because you were trying to tell your friend. Also, you were resisting because your face turned red. You were resisting because you weren’t saying, “Oh, I’d love to do that.” **Amy:** Right, I say rationalizing. ## SURVIVING & SEEKING THE SUPPORT TO LEAVE **Amy:** That was part of the resisting. How can I make this situation more comfortable for myself and feel less scary and awkward? I tried to find other reasons for maybe why he did certain things. So the whole thing is just trying to survive it. **Anne:** Yes. **Amy:** The best way we can until we can figure it out or until we can get enough support to leave. After my pastor and his wife sat with me during that last session, I knew I wouldn’t go back. However, I was highly traumatized and still attached to him. I was ashamed and embarrassed, and I was confused as to how he manipulated me. And why I stayed so long, and allowed that. I didn’t have plans to tell anybody after that. That I hadn’t left after seeing the warning signs. But in time, I got the courage to report him to the medical board because he was a psychiatrist. The medical board process took about nine months, and he was allowed to permanently surrender his license. **Anne:** Hmm. **Amy:** I guess doctors can renew their license in my state after a year. But in this case, it was a permanent surrender of license, so that was some bit of justice. But it just felt so unfair. He was already retirement age. And so he got to pretend to retire and move away. ## CIVIL MALPRACTICE LAWSUIT WAS SUCCESSFUL, BUT NOT REALLY JUSTICE **Amy:** Meanwhile, my life was shattered. Because I hadn’t done anything about the warning signs earlier. My marriage, my family, we were all struggling. And so I decided to file a Civil Malpractice lawsuit. It took about three years, and in the end it was successful. It wasn’t about punishing the abuser so much, as it’s a financial transaction between us and his insurance company. It’s not the justice you get when you pursue criminal charges. But it was something that allowed me to stand up for myself for the first time. Several attorneys told me that pursuing any kind of criminal charge would have been brutal for me and my family. And that the abuser would likely walk. So not to do it. And clearly, I couldn’t take on any more trauma. So yeah, I didn’t even want to go near that. **Anne:** That makes sense. I’m so glad you got some sort of justice and also financial compensation, which is helpful to you, and holds him accountable. Even though it’s with his insurance, that he surrendered his license is good news. Sometimes they surrender their license, but then they coach afterwards. And that’s scary. We’ve had a few instances of that in my state where a therapist went through this. And then they surrendered their license, then it was found later that they just continued to see clients. Under the guise of coaching rather than therapy. And that’s been very alarming. ## COMMON PATTERNS OF ABUSIVE THERAPISTS **Anne:** Now, as you advocate for victims of abusive therapists. Can you talk about patterns that you see? **Amy:** Well, when it first happened to me, I thought I had to be the only person on the planet to be taken advantage of as an adult. That I hadn’t recognized the warning signs. And of course, I know now that it is extremely common. And, yet we all feel alone, because we all think there was something wrong with us. That we were not smart enough to see that I’m dealing with an abusive therapist. So that’s the first thing, is that it is common and that survivors are not alone. And the second is that it is challenging to peel apart the layers and see that you were actually manipulated and groomed by an abusive therapist. That although you are an adult, there wasn’t a gun to your head, there was a metaphorical one. There was emotional manipulation, which is equally powerful, and I feel like society doesn’t respect that. They don’t respect emotional manipulation or threats, but they still hold women captive. **Anne:** That makes total sense because listeners to this podcast have experienced it with their own husband. It’s not like he’s handcuffed her. **Amy:** Yet we’re still trapped. But sadly, that kind of manipulation doesn’t get much respect at all. In fact, women are usually blamed. I want to make sure survivors and listeners understand they aren’t to blame. That adults are taken advantage of all the time. And they don’t have to feel guilty, ashamed or to blame. That was what I needed to hear in the beginning over and over. ## YOU ARE NOT ALONE & IT’S NOT YOUR FAULT **Amy:** You’re not alone, it’s not your fault. I was like drowning in shame and self-hatred, and I was confused. To become attached to someone who takes advantage of you leaves you utterly confused when it’s over. You feel hatred for the person that hurts you. And attachment to the person you thought was loving and caring. And there to support you, there to help you. It’s really hard for victims when they come out, because there’s so much that has to be sorted through. And understood, and there are very few people educated on it to help us. So, it’s important to throw a lifeline to survivors in those early days, especially. So that they can start to untangle some of that confusion. **Anne:** That is exactly the abuser’s intent to hook you emotionally and manipulate your emotions. By making it seem normal. Manipulate your thoughts, and make you feel like it is you, but it’s not you, right? So then you get confused and you feel shame, and that is their intent. This is why [lying is emotionally abusive](/is-lying-emotional-abuse/ "lying is emotionally abusive"). They want you to feel shame, because it keeps people from understanding what’s going on. Or for going for help or talking to people. And then even if you talk to people because you don’t know what’s going on, you don’t define it as abuse. And then they don’t know. So it is a big mess of he knows exactly what’s going on. But we don’t. **Amy:** Yeah, shame is like a prison, and they know that, and that is their intention from the beginning. Shame keeps us quiet, like you said. We’re confused, even if we try to reach out. And can’t explain it in a way that shows what happened. ## WATCH OUT FOR THESE ABUSIVE THERAPIST RED FLAGS **Amy:** It takes months, sometimes years, to fully wrap your head around it and then reiterate it in a way that makes sense. Because you can’t explain something you don’t understand yet yourself. **Anne:** Exactly, because listeners of this podcast have been manipulated by their husbands. And most of the time, I would say they don’t understand. So they turn to therapists for help. Then the therapist ends up being an extension of their husband’s abuse quite a bit of the time. The biggest red flag is that if you know it’s abuse, do not go to couple therapy. But just in general, red flags for abusive therapists: if they stop charging you and run over time. **Amy:** There will be no physical touch, except maybe a handshake upon meeting. Sometimes, maybe, it’s ethical for a therapist to give you a short hug at the end of sessions. But even then, be careful with that. They won’t talk about other clients. The one you mentioned about the couples therapy, that is a big one. If they’re willing to see you both as couples and you individually, that is a red flag. They cannot be your therapist and your therapist as a couple. **Anne:** A hundred percent, and almost every addiction recovery therapist does that. It’s so unethical. It’s so crazy. I’m like, no, it’s unethical. Number one, if it’s abuse, but even the therapist doesn’t know it’s abuse. So they’re doing all these unethical things, and the client doesn’t know. And apparently the therapist doesn’t know, or maybe they know, but they don’t care. I don’t know. ## FINDING THE RIGHT THERAPIST CAN BE DIFFICULT **Amy:** When I found a good therapist years ago, I suggested couples counseling to him. Just bringing it up in general, he said, “You know, I can’t be your therapist and your marriage therapist.” At first, I wished he could because I trusted him. But then I realized that would be so hurtful, because you lose your therapist when they become your couple’s therapist. They do not have that objectivity anymore, and they do not have your best interests at heart. **Amy:** If you have any feeling of unease, you have permission not to go back. It’s not rude or hurting their feelings. We’re allowed to do what’s best for us. And it’s really hard. At least it was hard for me to think that way, that I don’t even have to have a reason. You just make me feel uncomfortable. That’s something to listen to. **Anne:** Yeah, and you also don’t need to tell them that. You can cancel the appointment and just never go back and not tell them why. **Amy:** Yeah, you don’t owe them anything. **Anne:** Yes, you owe them zero things. **Amy:** It is a business transaction. It’s a service, and you’re paying them. If they are helping you, then you continue. Otherwise, you find someone else. Many red flags are things that I felt in my gut. So it’s hard to put them all into words. **Anne:** But maybe that’s the most important one. I think many women in this space, our listeners, go and they think, I don’t know, it didn’t feel right. But next time I will be able to explain it better. Or we made some progress. And so next time I can like, we’re getting close. ## OUR COACHES UNDERSTAND **Anne:** And I want to say, if you’re constantly feeling like you’re getting close, but you still feel uncomfortable. That would be a red flag. Many women, when they come to [BTR .ORG and schedule sessions with our coaches](/individual/). Or they come to our group sessions. One of the main things they say is that they understood it right away. They totally got it. They helped me. I didn’t have to spend time and money trying to explain it to them. Almost like you’re educating the therapist that your husband’s abusive. Our coaches, because they’re abuse coaches, are helping you see, okay, is this abuse and can help you immediately. And so always thinking that next time, maybe you’ll get over the discomfort is a red flag. **Amy:** I was just going to say that if you feel the burden of proof is on you, then that’s not a good fit. The therapist should immediately recognize it as abuse. And should support you and help you understand it, not the other way around. If you have to over explain yourself, or defend yourself in any way, then they aren’t the therapist for you. You feel heard, seen and valued if they’re ethical. They won’t make you feel questioned, attacked, or belittled. But since we’re used to taking abuse from people. We feel it’s our responsibility. And that if they miss the mark, we give them another chance or we see how it goes. When we don’t deserve to be hurt anymore. And we certainly don’t need to pay for it. **Anne:** Exactly, exactly. Like you’re paying someone to help you. If you feel like you have to explain it to them or educate them. ## HAVING HOPE & YET REALISTIC EXPECTATIONS **Amy:** Feeling lighter, validated, heard, seen and feel some semblance of hope. There’s hope, because somebody sees me and gets it. That’s how you should feel when you leave. **Anne:** It’s hard with betrayal trauma and abuse. Because hope is tricky. We’re like there is hope you can live free from abuse. We have [The Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). You can get to emotional and psychological safety. That may mean you need to start setting boundaries and separating yourself from the harm. And that doesn’t feel hopeful, because there might not be hope for the marriage. Which is very hard to face. But if therapists give victims hope in the wrong thing, like my ex was emotionally and psychologically abusive. I remember one therapist who was like, he’s a good guy. Of course, we can work this out. And so I felt hope, but it was hope in the wrong thing. It was hope that this abusive man could be non-abusive, and that wasn’t going to happen for me. So you want to feel hopeful. Also realistic about your situation. I think that’s another important thing that they’re not giving you false hope. **Amy:** That’s very important, yes. **Anne:** We might be like, he is abusive. We need to get to safety. It’s actually going to be hard, but you can do it. We believe in you. You’re strong and brave, and let’s start moving towards emotional and psychological safety. We don’t know what path you’re going to take. But this, oh, come to me and I’ll solve all your problems. It’ll be really quick. And this is like easy to solve. ## THERAPISTS & RE-TRAUMATIZATION CHALLENGES **Amy:** Yes, I agree. I hope things can change eventually. That you don’t have to stay in the same pattern that you’ve been in for all these years. Like you said, it may be uncomfortable getting there, but it’s possible. Yeah, I can see how therapists can re-traumatize so many people. Today we were referring to my therapist, who intentionally harms people. He does it for fun. I think there are therapists that do their best, but don’t have the skills. You have to be picky and keep going until you find somebody that you feel is a fit, and that hears you and gets it. **Anne:** I’m always concerned, especially when it comes to abuse. Like you might talk to clergy or friends, and the automatic thing everyone says is they don’t understand it’s abuse. Especially if he has [covert narcissistic traits](/covert-narcissist-traits/). Also, even if they know it’s abuse, they don’t know that you shouldn’t go to couple therapy or therapy about it. Immediately they’re like, well, therapy solves everything. And I want to caution people about that idea. Therapy can be really helpful for some things. Being an abuse victim, there’s not necessarily something wrong with you. In your case, you went to therapy to get help for something specific. That you wanted to change about yourself. That is a good reason to go to therapy. But when someone hurts you, they’re messed up, not you. Therapy’s not the answer for everything, I guess. Sometimes you might need a friend or a hiking group. Thinking that there’s inherently something wrong with you in your situation. That therapy can solve it when there isn’t something wrong with you. ## FINDING SOMEONE TO TALK TO THAT UNDERSTANDS ABUSE **Anne:** Sometimes I feel like people go in and the therapist finds something wrong with the person that wasn’t even there to begin with. Especially if they’re an abuse victim. Like, let’s talk about why you picked the, and you didn’t do anything to deserve to be treated that way. It’s almost a form of victim blaming in some ways. **Amy:** I do, and that comes down to picking the right therapist, because I feel so much damage can be done. Especially if you’re not aware of the warning signs of an abusive therapist. But I feel so much healing can happen in just supporting you through it. Not saying you need to be here, but I want to walk alongside you through this journey. So if you look at it like that, I feel it can be beneficial. The right therapist won’t make you feel at fault. You may get there at some point where you want to analyze things. But I think it’s good to have somebody walk alongside you who understands it. Friends and family hurt me over and over because they don’t get it. They don’t understand it. They don’t relate to it. So almost everything they said to me was offensive. They would say things to me, like, “Well, why did you go back?” And just different questions along that line. And it was so painful, because I was already beating myself up with that same thing. I don’t know. And so, someone who understands it will be safer to talk to than someone who doesn’t understand. **Anne:** Yeah, whether it be a therapist or not. Talking to someone who understands abuse Is the answer. ## CHALLENGES IN GETTING HELP AFTER BEING ABUSED BY A THERAPIST **Anne:** It breaks my heart that women have to try therapist after therapist, after therapist, after therapist to find a safe one. I created Betrayal Trauma Recovery, because I didn’t want any woman to have to go through that heartbreaking process. Because you don’t always know right after the first session. Also, many times when they find it’s abuse, therapists don’t have concrete ways of helping you. I created the [Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/), which I mentioned earlier, for that reason. But it’s hard. Because clergy, family and so many people don’t understand. **Amy:** I’ll tell you, when you mentioned clergy, I just bristled. Because the other thing that we get a lot is that the abuser is just sinning. He’s just a sinner in need of help. I heard that about my own abuser, even though he was like a psychopath intentionally harming women over his entire career. So for me, I would shy away from going to a pastor or religious person. Because that’s often the approach they take, and that’s also damaging and re-traumatizing, **Anne:** And if they’re going to try and get the “sinner” to repent. But then you’re still in proximity to that abuser, and he can just manipulate the whole situation. **Amy:** Right, I just wouldn’t recommend it. They don’t have the training to properly help a woman in that situation. And like you said, it’s going to be more about well, can you forgive them? They’re just sinning and they’re broken. Well, no, they intentionally choose to hurt someone. ## NEEDING TO REACH OUT FOR HELP & FINDING SAFETY **Amy:** For me, I was not able to escape on my own. I tried and tried, and I didn’t want to tell anyone else because I was embarrassed. And I didn’t think they’d understand, but it just kept me there longer. I couldn’t break the emotional tie either. He would guilt me and manipulate me. So you need to reach out for help. However, the first person I reached out to for help blamed me and took the abuser’s side. And it crushed me so much that I stayed longer. So you have to tell and continue to tell until you’re heard. It’s so devastating when we reach out for help, and we’re not believed, blown off, or blamed. We give up altogether. **Anne:** I absolutely agree. We hear that a lot here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. That women have been to therapist after therapist or talk to their clergy. You do the right thing. every time you reach out. Even if you get shut down, which is devastating. Finally, when they come here, they’re like, “Oh, yes.” It’s because we get it immediately. But I want to praise them for continuing to try to get help. Then when they find us, I’m so glad, because I’m like, we’re here. We’re here for you. Amy, thank you so much for being so brave and sharing your story. So that other victims can relate with it and hopefully learn something together. Thank you so much for sharing. **Amy:** Yes, thank you for having me. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast **Tags:** emotional abuse --- ### [When Your Husband Apologizes - How to Know It It's Genuine](https://www.btr.org/husband-apologizes-how-to-know-if-its-genuine/) **Published:** February 11, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Does your husband apologize? If it's happened before, here's how to know if it's a genuine apology. **Content:** If your husband never apologizes, that’s a problem. But there’s an even bigger problem many people don’t talk about: if your husband apologizes, how do you know if it’s genuine? Especially if he has a history of lying. If it’s hard to tell whether his apology is truly genuine, look for these 5 things. And keep reading as I’ll share a personal example from after my divorce. ### **1. DOES HIS APOLOGY FOCUS ON ONE SMALL MOMENT**, **WHILE IGNORING THE BIG PICTURE?** My husband would get mad at me almost every single night over the smallest things. And then one morning he said, “I’m so sorry about last night.” But what about the 52 nights that came before that or the credit card I still didn’t know he had? He was apologizing for one leaf and I was living in a whole forest of issues. If your husband thinks an apology for one incident is sufficient to repair the damage done by his pattern of lying, manipulation, or harm…he’s not taking ownership of his problem. He’s putting a bandaid on one of a thousand cuts and expecting that to heal all of the other wounds. ### **2. **IF YOUR HUSBAND APOLOGIZES, DO YOU STILL FEEL UNEASY**?** I felt relief in the moment when he apologized, but worse later. In the moment I thought it was a breakthrough, like maybe I wasn’t gonna have to drag this marriage up a hill by myself anymore. But then later I’d be brushing my teeth thinking, Why did I have to beg him to apologize? Many women expect to feel relief after an apology, but if your husband has had a history of being dishonest and diminishing the impact of his behavior, that feeling of uneasiness is often a signal, not a personal flaw. Give yourself space to observe instead of deciding what it “means” right away. ### **3. IS HIS APOLOGY BACKED BY CONSISTENT BEHAVIOR**? My husband sometimes cried when he apologized, but he would never cry in the moment when I was really hurting. This one really got me because I realized that when I was trying to share my concerns with him he didn’t really care. He just wanted the conversation to end. So why is he empathetic now that he is apologizing? Sometimes it’s hard to tell if he’s truly sorry for what he did, or sorry he’s facing consequences. And improving communication can’t fix the impact of [emotional abuse and infidelity](/emotional-abuse-and-infidelity/), no matter how often you’re told it will. Watch his behavior, not his explanations. His actions will tell you the truth. ### **4. DOES HIS APOLOGY COME WITH PRESSURE TO RECONCILE?** This sounded like, “I’m so sorry. Can I move back in now?” Or “I’m sorry. Are we done talking about this now?” That pressure was the tell that my husband’s apology wasn’t genuine. Many women are told: “If your husband apologizes, you should forgive him and move forward together.” But those are two different things. Forgiveness is something you can do for yourself. Reconciliation requires evidence of change. You can forgive *and* maintain distance. ### **5. DOES HIS APOLOGY RESPECT YOUR NEED FOR EMOTIONAL SAFETY**? My husband’s apologies gave me hope, but I didn’t realize hope was a manipulation tactic. True emotional safety and manufactured hope are not the same thing. If he’s finally telling you what you’ve always wanted to hear, it doesn’t mean you owe him anything and you don’t have to decide anything today. If you’re trying to make sense of his behavior—not just his words—take our [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/) for more clarity. ## TRANSCRIPT: WHEN YOUR HUSBAND APOLOGIZES, HOW DO YOU KNOW IF IT’S GENUINE? **Anne:** So years ago, I recorded a podcast episode about how I receive a restitution letter in the mail, and my husband apologized. In the mail from my then ex husband after we were divorced. If you’ve ever received an apology from your husband or ex husband, it seems like he’s showing remorse. And you’re wondering, [can my husband change](/can-my-husband-change/ "can my husband change"), what does this mean? Is this genuine? This is the episode for you. If you need support in understanding if your husband is really changing, check out our [Group Session Schedule](https://www.btr.org/group/ "Group Session Schedule"). ![is His Apology Really Genuine](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Is-Your-Apologetic-Husband-Really-Genuine.webp "is Your Apologetic Husband Really Genuine")It’ll also give you a snapshot of how I felt years ago. I was still hurting and confused. Just a quick recap. Before we married, he lied to me and was abusive, but I wasn’t aware of it. Because he manipulated me and presented himself as somebody he wasn’t. Instead, I just thought he had an anger problem and needed to go to therapy. ## ESCALATING ABUSE WHEN YOUR HUSBAND APOLOGIZES AND TRIES TO MAKE RESTITUTION **Anne:** He said he would go to therapy. But continues to lie to me and yell in my face, two inches from my face. He continued to lie about his explicit material use. I believe now, he manipulated me and lied to me about his use our whole marriage. Still lying about it, not only to me, but also to large groups of people as he’s doing public speaking. Then, came his arrest for domestic violence. Then doing nothing to acknowledge what has happened at all. And, not trying to get back in the home, not trying to repent, not trying to take accountability, not being honest, and not being humble in any way. Then he files for divorce, claiming it’s because I’m not forgiving him or something like that. ![So Your Husband Apologized How Do You Know if It's Genuine?](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Your-Husband-Is-Apologetic-How-To-Know-If-Its-Genuine.webp "Your Husband is Apologetic How to Know if Its Genuine")Now I want to tell you a little bit about what happens on the day my husband apologized for. In 2015, we spoke at UCAP. He and I were going to speak together about how he recovered from his addiction and how to do it successfully. However, both before and after the speech, his abusive behaviors were escalating. He put holes in a bunch of our walls. He broke his door. At that time, I thought, well, this is part of the recovery process. So we spoke at UCAP. Right after I said, “You’ve got to shut down your website”. I can’t do this with you anymore. This is a sham, and he got more and more angry. ## THE TURNING POINT: LEGOLAND INCIDENT **Anne:** That summer we go to Legoland, and on the way there I am driving, he grabs my head in the car violently and screams at me to shut up in front of my children. I was so terrified that once we parked, I jumped out of the car with my kids and ran into the Legoland hotel. And I just sat there and cried for a while, and then handed my kids to my parents. I thought, well, I guess I can’t leave him in the car. So as I was walking back to the car to get him, I was praying out loud, like, please, I need a miracle. I need a miracle. I cannot do this anymore. ![is Your Husband's Apology Real?](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Is-Your-Husbands-Apology-Really-Genuine.webp "is Your Husbands Apology Really Genuine")The rest of the day at Legoland, he screamed at me in public, in front of my parents and a bunch of other people. It was awful. And on the way home, I was sobbing uncontrollably, still driving, just to try and get him to calm down and stop. I said, I want you to know that no matter how abusive and terrible you are to me, I will always be respectful to you. I’m sorry if I was not respectful today in confronting you about your abuse, more or less. I can’t remember exactly what it was, but it was something like that. And he looked at me with the most evil, look in his eyes and said good. How do I know you’ll never act like that again? [He blamed me for HIS emotional abuse.](/blamed-me-for-the-emotional-abuse/ "He blamed me for HIS emotional abuse.") There was no remorse, there was no anything. There’s no acknowledgement of me crying, I was taken aback by his response. I was horrified. So the rest of the trip, I tried to avoid him as much as possible. ## RESTITUTION VS. FORGIVENESS WHEN YOUR HUSBAND APOLOGIZES Anne: I slept in a separate bed. He wondered why he couldn’t be close to me, and why I didn’t want to kiss him. So before I read the so-called restitution letter he sent, where my husband apologized. I want to talk about the difference between what modern clergy and maybe therapists say about restitution. Which they frequently confuse with forgiveness. ![when My Husband Apologizes How Will I Know It's Genuine?](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/When-Your-Husband-Apologizes--Knowing-If-Its-Genuine.webp "when Your Husband Apologizes Knowing if Its Genuine")My church had their semi-annual conference. In conference to illustrate the “power of forgiveness,” one of the speakers shared a story. About a drunk driver who had killed a couple, a husband and wife. He shares this touching part of the story, where after the drunk driver is sentenced for manslaughter. The parents of the couple killed, and the parents of the drunk driver, broke down in tears and gave each other hugs in the hall of the courthouse. He wanted to show this as a beautiful moment of forgiveness. And as I listened to the story, I was like, this story of forgiveness has all the right elements. It has the element of justice, the element of truth, which is what makes forgiveness possible. Reconciliation wasn’t even on the table, because the drunk driver went to jail and the couple was dead. Even if the couple wasn’t dead, they didn’t need to reconcile because they didn’t live in the same house. There is no way that he would have a touching story of the “power of forgiveness.” If the parents of the drunk driver claimed, your son and your daughter, the ones killed, it’s their fault that our son was drinking. It’s their fault that this accident happened, and it’s their fault that now our son is in jail. Even though the story of forgiveness in the conference I heard is intended to motivate people to forgive. ## THE REALITY OF SEPARATION FROM EVIL **Anne:** There are countless stories in the scriptures where God commands the righteous to separate from the wicked. And for some reason, clergy often doesn’t suggest the most likely place to separate yourself from someone who is wicked or abusive is in your own home. ![How to Know if Your Husband's Apology Is Real](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Know-If-Your-Husbands-Apology-Is-Genuine.webp "How to Know if Your Husbands Apology is Genuine")One woman who works in the anti-abuse sphere said, “I don’t believe in evil,” on her Instagram. And I could not disagree more. I believe in evil. I’ve seen it in my ex-husband’s eyes and in his face. He really genuinely looked possessed. His eyes were kind of glazed over. It was like he wasn’t even there. Or when he would verbally assault me, or when he would punch walls or yell. It was so scary. It was like those films where the victims know they’re not safe, screaming and yelling. Please stop, but no matter how much they plead for mercy or kindness, the bad guys refused. I want to give two analogies before I read this apology letter from my husband. ## ANALOGIES TO UNDERSTAND ABUSE **Anne:** The first is the analogy of a tree. Imagine your marriage and family is a beautiful oak tree, and you have spent years, years, and years planting it, digging around it and nourishing it. And then your husband starts hacking off random branches all the time, and you’re asking him to stop. You’re saying please, please don’t do that. I love this tree. It means a lot to me. Please don’t do that. And he just keeps doing it, and he’ll hack off a branch, and then he’ll say I’m so sorry I did that. I love you. I care about you. And the next thing, you know, there’s another branch on the driveway sitting there, and you’re like, what is going on? ![when Your Husband Apologizes How to Know if It's Truly Meaningful](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/When-Your-Husband-Apologizes--How-To-Know-If-Its-Genuine.webp "when Your Husband Apologizes How to Know if Its Genuine")I thought we already talked about this. And then one day, in my case, he came and ripped the entire tree out. All that is left is a gaping hole. So that’s the first analogy I want to use. The second one is as if a murderer broke into my home at night, killed my family with a machine gun, and left my house in complete disarray. The walls have bullet holes all over, there’s blood all over the place, and walked out and did not acknowledge what happened, was not arrested, was not held accountable in any way. And then told people. Yeah, I just went to this home and then got attacked, and I am the victim in this situation. Okay, so those are the two analogies. ## WHEN YOUR HUSBAND APOLOGIZED: ANALYZING IT’S MEANING **Anne:** So the restitution letter I received validates he’s abusive. I can clearly see absolutely no change. I am not sure why he sent this. Either number one, someone broke up with him or he’d had a bad day, or he felt super bad that we were going on a trip and he couldn’t come with us. There’s that. If he wrote it of his own volition and didn’t tell anyone about it and is not using it as a, look, I wrote this restitution letter and she still won’t talk to me. And If he really genuinely wrote it and hasn’t used it to brag to other people as part of his story of being a “victim,” Then I can see that perhaps there’s some part of him that understands or can see the harm he’s caused, just a tiny, tiny part. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) If, on the other hand, clergy instigated this or a therapist or someone who said, well, she doesn’t talk to you. Maybe you need to write a restitution letter. So someone instigated it. So now he can say, well, I’ve written a restitution letter, and she still won’t talk to me. Then I don’t feel like this is any sign of him recognizing what he’s done wrong. So this is the letter I receive, in it my husband apologizes. Anne, our son informed me that you may be going to Legoland during your trip to California over spring break. I’m glad to hear that you are taking the children to California and possibly Legoland. I hope it is a safe and enjoyable vacation for all. I am writing to apologize for my negative and hurtful behavior. During that trip to California and Legoland in 2015. ## YOUR HUSBAND APOLOGIZES WITH A TOKEN GESTURE **Anne:** I acted in an irritable manner and said and did hurtful things during that vacation, which made it difficult for you and the rest of the family to enjoy that vacation. I am sorry. It’s hard to have the memories of that vacation overshadowed by the difficulties I caused. I hope you can forgive me and enjoy the upcoming trip. I have enclosed a $300 check as a token of my apology, in an effort to make some restitution for the difficulties I caused during that trip to California. Most sincerely, Chuck. His name is not Chuck, I am changing it to protect his anonymity. So let me talk about the $300 check first, even though he’s apologizing. He refused to give me $100,000 back in pre-marital assets. I used money from before our marriage. Money that my parents gave me, that my grandma gave me, and money that I had from a condo I owned to pay off his law school loans. That money I earned before we married. And he refused to give it back, which confused me so much because our whole marriage was a lie. So I expected him to at least be accountable for that and say, yeah, I will give you back the $100, 000 you had before we married, but he refused. So, I cashed the $300 check, but it means nothing to me without the full restitution for that $100, 000 in premarital assets. Including all the financial difficulties I have had due to his choices. At [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/) we understand that abuse includes lying, manipulating, explicit material use, and infidelity of any kind. We’re throwing all these serious behaviors into the category of abuse, which is the only way we can look at it. ## WHEN YOUR HUSBAND APOLOGIZES, OBSERVE HIS CHARACTER **Anne:** At the time I got this restitution letter, I was observing from a safe distance to see if he would choose to change his character. If your wondering [if an emotionally abusive husband will change,](https://www.btr.org/can-my-husband-change/ "if emotionally abusive husband will change,") I’ve observed that it’s impossible to externally motivate an abusive man to change, especially because his exploitative privilege comes with so many rewards. What we see in our communities is that emotionally and psychologically abusive men will be reluctant to make significant changes, but they’re not reluctant to apologize or tell people that they’re going to make changes. They’re just reluctant to actually make the changes and how they relate to you. Because for him, it’s a transactional situation. And because it’s transactional for him. Persuasion, logic, pleading, begging, getting him in some men’s program. Even when he’s in the men’s program, he’s going to convince the therapist that he’s incredible and amazing. He won’t actually change his behavior, because then he’d lose his ability to exploit you. And that’s what a “relationship” is to him, it’s a transactionship. And so he’s like, what’s the point of being in a relationship with this person if I can’t exploit her? What would I get out of it? ## WHAT ARE PERFORMATIVE APOLOGIES **Anne:** Because of that, most emotionally and psychologically abusive men, addicts as some people call them, don’t choose to rid themselves of all the privileges the abuse gives them. So, at the time, I’m looking at this letter and analyzing it to see if there’s any evidence that his character has changed since I talked to him last. This letter doesn’t even make restitution for anything. Even though my ex husband apologized, it doesn’t talk about him grabbing my head. I’m pretty sure he was using explicit material during that time, and doesn’t say anything about the lies or manipulation. It doesn’t even make restitution just for that one moment, let alone the whole tree, right? It doesn’t even make restitution for the one branch. He doesn’t admit fully his history of psychological, and physical abusiveness. For example, he was online dating and going to a singles congregation long before our divorce was final. Whereas I stayed true to my marriage vows the entire time until the divorce was final. He didn’t acknowledge that the abuse was wrong unconditionally. And he didn’t identify the justifications he used, including the various ways he blamed me. He didn’t admit he’d been [counter parenting](/counter-parenting/) or talk in detail about why his behaviors were unacceptable, without slipping back into defending them. He didn’t acknowledge that his behavior was a choice, not a loss of control. So an abuser, they think, man, if she found out the truth, I would be toast. So to control the situation, I’m going to lie. That is abuse, right there. He didn’t talk in detail about the short and long-term impact his abuse has had, including fear, loss of trust, anger, without reverting to feeling sorry for himself, or talking about how hard the experience has been for him. ## WHEN YOUR HUSBAND APOLOGIZES AS A WEAPON **Anne:** Again, he is not the victim here. The tree did not just randomly fall on him, as he would like others to believe. He ripped it out on purpose. This acting like the victim goes far with people who don’t know the truth, and that’s why they do it. One reason I know this restitution letter is not a sign of true repentance, or that my husband apologized in earnest. Is that I sent information about how we could make the children’s schedule more consistent to help them and their emotional stability. And Chuck wrote back and said, “My personal and professional life is more important, so no.” So he’s absolutely not willing to put the needs of his children ahead of his own needs. That’s another sign to me that he is absolutely not repentant. He is not changing. Most [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/) clients say they often hear the abuser apologize. And we see patterns that apologies are part of psychological abuse. Abusers use apologies as a weapon. Because they’re transactional and think it’s an equation. They think, I say, I’m sorry. And that’s payment. Then what I get back is that she can’t say anything else about it. And she can’t expect anything of me after that. Like they think of it as some sort of transaction. Because the abuser’s exploitative privilege is the heart of his character. He’s going to think I’m such a great guy, because I said those words, most men would never even apologize. So she owes me because I’ve stooped so low as to say the words, I’m sorry. ## THE TRUE NATURE OF AN ABUSIVE CHARACTER **Anne:** Abusers also think. I can act like I’m changing. So that equation I was talking about or making a show of doing this differently a few times. And then that will earn me the ability to just keep doing it. Like they think they need to perform, rather than realize they need to change their character. We have to realize that if they actually wanted to change, they wouldn’t be that way in the first place. The character they have now is what they chose through every little choice they make up until this point. And so they actually became who they want to be. This is the most overlooked point about abusers, that an abuser has an abusive character, because he developed it through choice after choice. If he’s not internally motivated to change, because he hasn’t been in the past. I mean, this is who he has become. Then he criticizes you for not realizing how he’s changed. Even though he hasn’t changed at all. My husband performs a performance of an apology. For a few weeks or months, or sometimes even years. And then he’ll criticize you for not trusting that. His changes don’t last. They criticize us for considering him capable of behaving abusively. Even though he has done it in the past. He’s like, I would never do that, even though he has done it. Something like, well, I would never lie to you. When he is lying to you. He might remind you about the bad things he would have done in the past but isn’t doing anymore. Which amounts to a subtle threat. ## WHAT TRUE REPENTANCE LOOKS LIKE WHEN YOUR HUSBAND APOLOGIZES **Anne:** He doesn’t realize that criticizing you, you don’t believe he’s changed just because he’s apologizing. Or that you kind of doubt what’s going on is another sign that he’s abusive, a healthy person would be like, that makes sense. I get it. I understand. Now in my ex husband’s case, if he fully repented. It would look like I’m going to start working on repaying the $100, 000 of premarital assets that you would never have given me had I not lied to you from the beginning. Basically, he needs to come replant that tree, refill in the dirt with beautiful topsoil full of nourishing vitamins for that tree. He needs to water it, fertilize it, take care of it, grow it and protect that tree. That kind of restoration doesn’t happen quickly. It takes years—sometimes decades. It also answers a question many women are quietly asking: [*how long does it take to heal from emotional abuse?* ](/how-long-does-it-take-to-heal-from-emotional-abuse/)Healing and rebuilding trust follow that same timeline. They can’t be rushed, and they can’t be created with words alone. That’s what real restitution would look like. When I received that letter, I felt a sense of peace. I knew I was doing the right thing. ## THE ALTERNATIVE REALITY OF THE ABUSER **Anne:** I don’t know what this letter is or means, except that he seems to be living in an alternate reality. With the two analogies I gave, this is as if there’s still this gaping hole in the ground and the tree is still gone. And he’s sending me a letter with a tiny stick in it saying, Remember that time I knocked off a tiny little branch on the north side of the tree? It was the branch that was three branches up. I’m so sorry about that little branch. Here is a branch. And he’s not acknowledging the giant tree he destroyed or the gaping hole left. Similarly, with the analogy of the murderer, he’s saying something like, “You know that one time I came into your home?” I am so sorry that I forgot to wipe off my feet. And this is to make restitution for the dirt I left on your carpet. I am so sorry for the dirt I left on your carpet that night in 2015. This is not what a restitution letter, when a husband’s apologizes, looks like. ## MOVING FORWARD DESPITE INSINCERE APOLOGIES FROM MY HUSBAND **Anne:** I don’t know what this is, but it totally validates my boundaries. And I will continue to hold them until I see full restitution. It’s been years since I received that restitution letter, and I’ve never received another one. That was the only apology I ever got about any of it. And he continued to abuse me and the kids. Undermine their medical care, undermine everything, for years after that. So, I don’t know why he wanted to say he was sorry for that particular specific thing. In 2015, he was careful to be very specific about it and send a $300 check. But, so, that’s how you can tell if the apology is real. Like some of those things that I talked about. Does he do those things? So listen to this, when you receive an apology and see like, wait a minute, is he really apologizing or is this something else? I talk a lot about this and other safety strategies in [The Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/ "The Living Free Workshop"). **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [The Truth About Betrayal Trauma Symptoms - When You Can't Get The Right Help](https://www.btr.org/betrayal-trauma-symptoms/) **Published:** February 18, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Do you have betrayal trauma symptoms? Check to see if you're experiencing any of these common symptoms. **Content:** Do you have betrayal trauma symptoms? Did *any* professional that you went to help you understand that you are a victim of emotional and psychological abuse? If not, you’re not the only one. [Attend one of our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/) to join a community of women who can validate and support you. ![Symptoms That Can Point to Betrayal Trauma](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Symptoms-That-Point-To-Betrayal-Trauma.webp "Symptoms That Point to Betrayal Trauma")## MOST PROFESSIONALS MISS BETRAYAL TRAUMA SYMPTOMS Tragically, family, friends, clergy, and therapists further abuse victims. When they don’t recognize that betrayal trauma symptoms are caused by emotional and psychological abuse and coercion. “That was the hardest part of my betrayal trauma symptoms. I felt like I was screaming, waving my arms for help, going to everyone I could think of, from clergy to therapists, and no one helped me.” *Anne Blythe, Founder of BTR.ORG* ## WOMEN WITH BETRAYAL TRAUMA SYMPTOMS ARE VICTIMS OF ABUSE Many women in our community share that they did not understand where the betrayal trauma symptoms were coming from. They thought it was from the discovery of their husband’s infidelity or pornography use, and it was. But they didn’t know that his infidelity and use signaled that he was emotionally and psychologically abusive. To know if you’re a victim of emotional abuse, take our [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ![Recognizing the Betrayal Trauma Symptoms](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Betrayal-Trauma-Symptoms-You-Might-Be-Experiencing.webp "Betrayal Trauma Symptoms You Might Be Experiencing")## WHAT ARE COMMON BETRAYAL TRAUMA SYMPTOMS? Wondering if you are in betrayal trauma? Here are a few of the most common symptoms: - Grief - Numbness - Rage - Depression - Insomnia and other sleep issues - Difficulty eating or overeating - Anxiety - Terror - Paranoia - Headaches - Body aches and pains At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we understand how to help you heal from [betrayal trauma symptoms](/26-symptoms-of-betrayal-trauma/). ![Betrayal Trauma Test Free](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Betrayal-Trauma-Test-Free.webp "Betrayal Trauma Test Free")## TRANSCRIPT: THE TRUTH ABOUT BETRAYAL TRAUMA SYMPTOMS **Anne:** I have Kathy or Justice Jones on today’s episode. She is a justice advocate who promotes outside the box solutions. And best practice responses to families living under the chronic oppression of abusers and counter-parents. I invited her here because the truth is that domestic abuse causes betrayal trauma symptoms. So we need to discuss domestic abuse and how professionals are missing it. Especially betrayal trauma professionals. They’re not identifying the symptoms of betrayal trauma as responses to emotional and psychological abuse, and coercion. So we’re going to talk about that today. Welcome Kathy. **Kathy:** Thank you for having me. ![the Signs and Symptoms of Betrayal Trauma](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Signs-and-Symptoms-of-Betrayal-Trauma.webp "Signs and Symptoms of Betrayal Trauma")**Anne:** Listeners to my podcast who have experienced this understand on a deeply personal level. How the entire system does not understand emotional and psychological abuse and coercion. And the continued abuse post separation or post divorce, when you’re [fighting a narcissist for custody](https://www.btr.org/fighting-a-narcissist-for-custody/). So let’s look at the system as a whole, including court professionals, therapists, all the people involved. When you say trauma responsive professionals, do you mean people who actually really get it or people who just say they get it? And can you also talk about the difference between those two things? **Kathy:** Yes, certainly. ## THE SYSTEM’S FAILURE TO RECOGNIZE ABUSE **Kathy:** I’ve been hearing the code word “trauma informed” probably for about 10 years in national conferences and the like. It quickly became apparent to me that just because you’re trauma informed, it doesn’t mean you’re responsive. It doesn’t mean you take the knowledge imparted to you and actually work towards the benefit and healing of the survivor. Meaning that if you’re a trauma informed professional, trauma informed is not enough. Even in your good intentions, you may be acting in ways or putting the survivor in situations that actually aggravate or re-traumatize that victim. **Anne:** From my perspective, there are so many so-called “betrayal trauma therapists.” Or even addiction recovery therapists, or other therapists who say they’re trauma informed. But they don’t understand anything about abuse and abuse dynamics. And so their counsel to the victim with betrayal trauma symptoms ends up harming the victim more. Many women don’t know this when they are looking for a [therapist for their abusive husband.](https://www.btr.org/your-abusive-husbands-therapist/ "therapist for their abusive husband.") ![What is the Truth About Betrayal Trauma Symptoms](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/The-Truth-About-Betrayal-Trauma-Symptoms.webp "the Truth About Betrayal Trauma Symptoms")**Kathy:** So the first story I have for you is eight years ago. I worked at my local domestic violence crisis center, and was invited to become part of a local mental health program. Part of their invitation was so that I could inform their practices to do domestic violence related issues better than what they knew. It was a real opportunity for me. And the first training I provided for these folks, they were wonderful people, but it became clear they did not know enough about domestic violence, counter-parenting, and just any issue related to family violence. ## LACK OF TRAINING IN DOMESTIC ABUSE **Kathy:** So I was compelled to ask the question of the 15 people in the room. They had well over 300 years total of real time practice working with families, and they could only come up with maybe 15 hours of domestic violence or family violence training. And that included their college career. And I was horrified. **Anne:** That’s very typical, or even less than that. ![Do You Have the Symptoms of Betrayal Trauma](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Do-You-Have-Betrayal-Trauma-Symptoms.webp "Do You Have Betrayal Trauma Symptoms")**Kathy:** Even less than that. I committed myself that day to making sure this particular practice got a lot more training than they had. In fact, they asked me to do a training session for mental health practitioners across the state of New Hampshire. But still, it was not enough to address the dearth of information that goes into the programming for mental health practitioners. Another eye opening incident. I was conducting a retreat, and we asked the participants, there were about 24 of them in the room. How many of you have been into counseling for addressing the domestic violence issues and betrayal trauma symptoms you were dealing with? 23 of those women raised their hands. And then I said, I’d like to ask, how many of you were actually helped by that counseling? And none of them raised their hands. Then they started sharing stories about how their [CSAT therapist](/csat-therapist-near-me/) actually encouraged them to stay in the abuse. To try a little harder, and stay a little longer. **Anne:** Communicate a little better. **Kathy:** Yeah, communicate a little better. **Anne:** Tell them what your boundaries are. Tell them what you expect. ## THE DANGER OF COUPLES THERAPY IN TREATING BETRAYAL TRAUMA SYMPTOMS **Kathy:** What was most interesting was that there were women in that room who were also mental health practitioners. And they were really distressed by the line of questioning. And eventually, after conversations after the retreat, one of them got back to me and said, like, that was eye opening for me. Even though she was one of the people acknowledging, hey, mental health practitioners didn’t help me with betrayal trauma symptoms. They, in fact, contributed to my pain. **Anne:** I’ve found that therapists in general do not understand this. When someone goes in for help, they do not approach it from the right angle, especially couples therapy. **Kathy:** Couples therapy should not even be a thing. As soon as domestic violence is identified, an ethical mental health practitioner will say, “I’m sorry, I cannot provide services in a conjoined therapeutic session. We need to do this separately.” ![How Can I Know What Symptoms of Betrayal Trauma Are](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Are-Symptoms-of-Betrayal-Trauma-Similar-to-PTSD.webp "Are Symptoms of Betrayal Trauma Similar to Ptsd")**Anne:** Even if it’s separate, they still don’t understand. Like sometimes that same therapist will relay information from the victim to the perpetrator. Like, Hey, she doesn’t like it when you yada, yada, which puts her in further danger. **Kathy:** Absolutely, yep. **Anne:** It’s so, so dangerous. The emotional and psychological abuse and the coercion piece are so misunderstood that. I’m concerned about anyone going to therapy, not that I’m like anti-therapy, that’s not what I’m trying to say. But for victims of abuse, it’s not the right way to go if they don’t understand they’re being abused. Because they don’t understand themselves. And because the therapist only knows what they see, they’re not going to help that victim identify that they are being abused. **Kathy:** Well, again, I can share another story. ## WHEN THERAPY MAKES THINGS WORSE **Kathy:** This one, my personal account where I was being abused by my ex-husband and decided to go into couples therapy. Because that was what I was encouraged to do. But my ex-husband wouldn’t go. Because, you know, I was the one who had all the problems. And I went anyway, it was with a couple who provided the therapy. And they were, again, lovely people, but their words created a lot of damage. One of the things they said to me, even after I disclosed that my ex-husband dumped hot spaghetti sauce on me. Because I had made spaghetti for dinner instead of pork chops. They said, well, you need to confess your sins to him and ask him for his forgiveness. ![What Are Symptoms of Betrayal Trauma I Could Be Experiencing](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-Are-Symptoms-of-Betrayal-Trauma.webp "What Are Symptoms of Betrayal Trauma")And I was like, what? And that was the last time I ever went for counseling. Again, like you, I’m not anti-counseling, but mental health practitioners must understand domestic violence. Before they should provide any level of care for domestic violence and assault, coercion, and coercive control victims. **Anne:** Now, many listeners come to this podcast because their husband uses online explicit material, or has an affair. And they find out that he’s been lying and gaslighting. So when someone, like a guest, or when I use the term domestic violence. They are like, oh, well, this must not be for me, because this isn’t a domestic violence situation. So I tend to use the word domestic abuse to help them understand that it is an abuse issue. But also, it’s a violence issue. ## EMOTIONAL & PSYCHOLOGICAL VIOLENCE THE BROADER SCOPE OF DOMESTIC ABUSE **Anne:** It’s emotionally and psychologically violent. **Kathy:** Yep. **Anne:** In our [daily online support group for betrayal trauma](/group/), we don’t specialize in physical violence per se, but physical violence will never happen in a vacuum. It’s always going to be preceded by emotional and psychological abuse. So it is under the umbrella of domestic violence. ![Do You Have Some of the Symptoms of Betrayal Trauma](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Do-You-Have-Symptoms-of-Betrayal-Trauma.webp "Do You Have Symptoms of Betrayal Trauma")Women who are here and hearing this word. If you’re like, he doesn’t punch me in the face. This isn’t a domestic violence issue. It might be an abuse issue, it is a domestic violence issue. It is under that umbrella, and it is violence in emotional and psychological ways. **Kathy:** Absolutely, 100%. The thing that I would say to those women who say that to themselves. The reason why you may not have seen physical violence yet is because the emotional and non-physical forms of violence he’s using against you are working. They’re doing what he wants them to do. Every single abuser is absolutely 100% capable of utilizing that more physical form of violence to maintain their dominance in a relationship. I would say between 60 and 65 percent of the women I work with have not experienced severe physical violence. And when I say severe, I’m talking about something other than pushing or pulling. **Anne:** Even just standing over them. **Kathy:** Punching a wall, throwing things, breaking the victim’s things. Those are all physical forms of violence. None of them are okay, by the way. I’m not trying to minimize the effect of those, but I’m saying, societally, we don’t think it’s a big deal. Until these abusers punch us in the eyes, and there’s a lot more that comes before that that is part of domestic violence. ## THE ROLE OF MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONALS IN TREATING BETRAYAL TRAUMA SYMPTOMS **Kathy:** Even though mental health professionals were the reason to do training. I have to say to my shame and regret that domestic violence crisis centers were another reason why. And police departments, judges, and guardians ad litem, the whole system of people out there were the reasons why. But the other reason was that I needed to succinctly lay out what are trauma informed practices. Even though I’m certain there are way more trauma informed practices. I tried to boil it down to these ten. What trauma survivors need to feel safe. As far as I’m concerned, it’s the most courageous act that any survivor can do is become vulnerable enough to say to somebody else, I need help. I can’t do this alone. ![Do These Symptoms Mean Betrayal Trauma](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Do-I-Have-Symptoms-of-Betrayal-Trauma.webp "Do I Have Symptoms of Betrayal Trauma")**Anne:** And then that vulnerable moment having the trauma compounded is so difficult. It’s happened to so many of us here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Which is exactly why I started [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/). I spent seven years with my emotionally and psychologically abusive ex in addiction recovery. No one said anything about abuse. **Kathy:** I’m really sorry. **Anne:** For seven years, I’m suffering the symptoms of betrayal trauma under the care of so-called therapeutic professionals. Not knowing that I was being abused. Not only by my ex, but also by proxy, yeah, by the system. It was so awful. **Kathy:** I’m really sorry that happened to you. **Anne:** Well, and that’s why I thought, I’ve got to get the word out. Don’t go down any other route until you know about abuse. Once you understand abuse well, and you can say, okay, this isn’t abuse. So maybe I can go to therapy, then you’d be in okay shape. ## THE DANGER OF MISGUIDED THERAPY **Anne:** But if you go there first without knowing about abuse, they’re not going to help you understand it in general. Maybe someone will help. Luckily, some guests on this podcast shared how they went to a particular therapist and received help. So that’s good. I’m not trying to say everybody’s like that. **Kathy:** And I’m so happy to hear those successful stories when they happen. I’m like, yeah, ![What Are All the Symptoms of Betrayal Trauma](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Do-I-have-Betrayal-Trauma-Symptoms.webp "Do I Have Betrayal Trauma Symptoms")**Anne:** I don’t know. **Kathy:** But it’s very few and far between. **Anne:** It is. And I do not want to discount your list. But I think it’s interesting how some people are like, well, I went to this training. And you could succinctly spell out what needs to happen or a list of what needs to happen. And the practitioner or court professional or helper thinks, okay, I got it. No problem. And then they talked to the victim and they think, oh, well, this doesn’t apply to her because… **Kathy:** She’s not a victim. **Anne:** Because he’s telling me this isn’t what’s going on. And immediately, nothing they just learned is helpful to her. So you just need people who have been through it. Because training doesn’t help professionals either. If they don’t truly understand it, they can’t get past his manipulation. **Kathy:** It’s an important point, because here’s the thing. Anytime you see a list like this, it shouldn’t be a check off. Of, yep, I did that, yep, I did that, yep, I did that. These lists should be utilized to take a good, long, hard look at how you conduct yourself. With, for instance, a trauma survivor, and say, will these people say these things about me? ## LISTENING WITHOUT BLAME OR JUDGEMENT **Kathy:** This is about getting professionals to think about this trauma survivor. I just worked with someone who identified herself as a trauma survivor. What is she gonna say about me on this app? **Anne:** The first item on your list. It’s not funny, but I’m smiling to myself a little bit, and I’ll tell you why. It says, listen to adult or child victims without blame or judgment. The reason why I am thinking of myself in this moment is because when I hear a victim, victim blame themselves, I listen without blame or judgment. But I always want to sort of set them straight, right? ![What Are All of the Symptoms of Betrayal Trauma](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-Are-the-Symptoms-of-Betrayal-Trauma.webp "What Are the Symptoms of Betrayal Trauma")Like, no, no, no, this is not your fault. Nope. And it can sound invalidating to victims experiencing betrayal trauma symptoms. Which I feel bad about, but I want to invalidate the self-abuse. I want to invalidate the ideas they have about themselves that came from the abuser. That they don’t recognize is abuse, and it’s not their fault that they don’t recognize it. It’s sort of a Catch 22 for someone who understands abuse to listen and redirect the truth of what’s going on. Which is a totally different thing, and not why you wrote this. Because you were intending to call out people who say, well, what could you have done better? **Kathy:** I have to go back and speak to the issue you were just talking about. Because it’s not just the abuser that gives the victim the perspective of, well, you’re to blame too, and this is what you’re doing wrong. That’s what you’re doing wrong, our entire society does it. ## THE SYMPTOMS OF BETRAYAL TRAUMA & POWER DYNAMICS IN ABUSE **Kathy:** There’s no more popular social activity out there than blaming and hating victims. So for me, this first step is, you’ve got to listen to somebody who identifies themselves as a victim and has betrayal trauma symptoms. You’ve got to listen to them without adding your own misconceptions and misperceptions about what they’re doing. How they added, how they contributed, how they’re complicit in their own abuse, because abuse comes from a power over dynamic. And an abuse victim is never a person in power within that specific relationship. So what do I mean by that? If you are somebody who’s being abused. You’re abused because the person who abuses you has decided they are superior to you. And that you are inferior to them in every way, shape, and form. ![Are My Symptoms Actually Betrayal Trauma](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Are-My-Symptoms-A-Sign-Of-Betrayal-Trauma.webp "Are My Symptoms a Sign of Betrayal Trauma")With somebody like that, you’re not a victim one day and powerful the next day. Where you’re like fighting back. Resistance abuse is a term I can’t stand. It’s not abuse, it’s just resistance. **Anne:** Exactly, or it’s resistance to abuse. **Kathy:** You have a power dynamic of one person who’s always dominant over the other. Power and control, coercive control, this is what it’s all about. So I like to use the acronym PRIC: Premeditated, Repetitive, Intentional, Conscious and knowing. **Anne:** Hmm. **Kathy:** That’s how abusers work. They do that to establish their dominance as either the partner or as a parent. And they do it with the intention of destroying your ability to have any sense of safety, well-being, or autonomy. **Anne:** Would you add that they use lying, manipulation, and gaslighting to do it? **Kathy:** Yeah, yeah they use a bunch of tools in their tool belt to do that. ## THE INTENTIONALITY OF ABUSERS **Kathy:** People will ask me all the time, is it intentional? Let me tell you how intentional it is. I have another example. My abuser used to sleep at night with his fingers wrapped through my hair. I couldn’t even get up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom without him knowing. ![The Truth About Betrayal Trauma Symptoms What You Need To Know](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/020px4mdTX4/maxresdefault.jpg) So even in his sleep, he was intentional in knowing exactly where I was and what I was doing at all times. So, it is true that victims will say things that indicate they are taking on the blame for abuse that is happening to them. And I think it is perfectly okay, certainly, I have done it hundreds of times, if not thousands of times. To ask them, can I reframe that for you for a minute? Can we talk about the power dynamic here? What was happening in your mind as you did X, Y, Z? Were you doing that in the moment to be dominant over him? Or were you trying to get some semblance of self autonomy back? Or were you trying to defend yourself or your children? And so deconstructing what that victim calls, I contributed to the abuse. Not to deny them their experience. But to say, like, hey, let’s reframe this to think about what was happening here, because self defense is not abuse. **Anne:** One of the problems is that abusers will claim their abuse was self defense. No matter how bad she’s suffering from betrayal trauma symptoms. She wouldn’t let me use, I couldn’t take it anymore. I had to take a stand, they might say. But if you ask, what was it that she was pushing for truth, transparency, equality? ## REFRAMING VICTIM BLAME **Kathy:** And, again, it’s about looking at the totality of that relationship. To say, where was your dominance in that moment? You were withholding significant information from her. That caused her to feel like you were not trustworthy, that you were putting her at risk for STI’s. Or that, you were belittling or making small the vows of your wedding that she was taking seriously. Like, there’s always that power dynamic that the perpetrator maintains, even as he is trying to get the victim to take the blame for what her reaction may have been in the moment. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) **Anne:** We mentioned it just barely about the idea of mutual abuse or reactive abuse. So for example, you’re experiencing abuse, so you were abusive to him. Is the idea that BTR.ORG emphatically rejects you’re just resisting, especially if your [husband defends everyone but you](https://www.btr.org/my-husband-hates-me/). Which is a totally different thing. Can you talk about why maybe the typical therapist might suggest this? Or maybe an abuse victim might think she’s being abusive in response to his abuse? **Kathy:** One of the most common ideas around that is it takes two to tango. If you’re in counseling, especially in a co-counseling or couples counseling type of therapeutic relationship. It’s their nature to find where both parties are at fault. **Anne:** That’s the foundational theoretical underpinning of their training. It’s family systems. That is the schooling they received. I also think that under the certification and licensure, it’s unethical for them to pick a side. Right? Because of the family systems theory with which they’ve been trained. ## BETRAYAL TRAUMA SYMPTOMS, RESOURCES, & THE ROLE OF CLERGY IN ABUSE DISCLOSURE **Kathy:** It’s an aside, but the more I’ve seen the resources available. The only training I’ve seen on trauma informed practices that I think is worthwhile is the training through Dr. Jessica Taylor in the United Kingdom. **Anne:** I’ve had her on the podcast before. She’s great. **Kathy:** Because she specifically rejects any concept that would re-brand, re-victimize, or make somebody culpable in their own abuse for men’s violence against women. She would not pathologize women for being victims of men’s violence. Mother Justice Network, by the way, also completely rejects the idea of mutual abuse or reactive abuse. **Anne:** So many listeners to this podcast, when they find out about their husband’s online explicit material use, for example. Simultaneously, find out that he has been lying to her for years. Most of the time, they’re like a church going type man, right? So it’s assumed he wouldn’t participate in this type of behavior. Many victims, when they find out, the first thing they do is go to clergy. And say, Hey, this is what’s going on. They think maybe clergy can help them. This amounts to a victim disclosing abuse, right? Emotional and psychological abuse are what cause betrayal trauma and all the horrible symptoms that to along with it. But she might not know that’s what he’s doing. And 99% of the time, the clergy does not know that that’s what’s occurring. And so this disclosure of abuse ends up abusing her more in this setting with clergy. But it can happen with therapists or even law enforcement officers, or even the domestic violence shelter. ## THE RISKS OF DISCLOSING ABUSE **Anne:** So let’s talk about some possible ramifications of disclosing abuse. Whether or not you know it’s abuse and are experiencing betrayal trauma symptoms. Women who listen to this podcast have done this because they didn’t know it was abuse. So it wasn’t their fault. They were trying to get help – I mean you’d think it would be easy to[ get the right support for marriage problems](/support-group-for-marriage-problems/) get help So they understand the risks and ramifications more than the general population. **Kathy:** Any time information gets back to someone who is abusive, there will always be a risk of retaliation. Because of making a disclosure of any kind. I think one of the first things anybody listening to this podcast should ask anyone is. “I need to say something to you, I need to tell you something. But I need to know under what circumstances would you share any bit of my disclosure with somebody else, including my partner.” Because if they can’t say to you, we will not disclose anything unless we have your specific written permission to make a disclosure. We will not make a disclosure because it is unsafe. Abusers, when they know they’re being outed, react potentially in a few ways. But the ones that I can think of immediately are they come back at you with anger, and their anger is always dangerous. Or they start spreading lies about you. I call it, she’s the bitter, violent, lying, lazy, crazy, drunken, druggie, money grub and slut defense. Or I call it building social equity. They try to collect as many flying monkeys around them so they can start discrediting you and what your perspective is. Leaving you feeling isolated and alone. It’s never a good response. ## THE PROBLEM WITH THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURE **Kathy:** So disclosure, like even to somebody you think you can trust. You have to ask, what would you potentially do with disclosures that I make? Because it’s important, really important for your own physical and emotional safety. That you know what’s happening to that disclosure after it’s made. **Anne:** Now, disclosure is a very fraught word here at [BTR.ORG](https://www.btr.org/). Because any listener who has gone through addiction recovery with the abuser. Usually the therapist wants to do a disclosure with the perpetrator. To write down all his use, affairs and all of his compulsive behavior. So they’ll list it all out and say, okay, we’re going to do this therapeutic disclosure. They don’t identify the victim with betrayal trauma symptoms and the perpetrator, because both of them are victims of the addiction, so to speak. **Kathy:** That’s really a thing? **Anne:** This is really a thing, yeah. **Kathy:** I’m horrified by what you just said. **Anne:** Yeah. It’s really a thing. So basically, the therapist says to her, “This is going to be hard for him. We need to support him through this disclosure.” They might do like a therapeutic polygraph at the end, which we do not recommend because they do not help. She is the ultimate decision maker about whether she is safe, if she feels safe. Many times after that polygraph, the therapist is like, well, he’s told us everything, and the polygraph has confirmed it. So I don’t know why you’re feeling stressed still and feeling betrayal trauma symptoms. He’s doing great. Now, I guess we have to deal with your trauma. As in, you’re a problem because you feel this trauma, and the trauma is the problem, not his abuse. ## THE IMPORTANCE OF SAFE REPORTING OF ABUSE **Anne:** And so now you become like this crazy person, because he’s fine. He’s done everything he’s supposed to do, and you’re still suffering from the effects of betrayal trauma. **Kathy:** That is the ultimate systemic gaslighting, and I want to vomit right now. **Anne:** Yeah, it’s really, really bad. I want to acknowledge that as women listen. Because many of them have maybe either considered this addiction recovery, therapeutic disclosure, or someone has suggested it to them. That word disclosure can be very triggering for victims of abuse in this setting, in this context. So she’s talking about reporting the abuse, which is probably the word I would use here, so that we don’t get it confused with therapeutic disclosure. And then, make sure the person you report to is safe. That is key. We have a [The Clarity After Betrayal Workshop](/clarity/) that helps women decipher who is safe and who is not. When they start their journey to safety. So that they’re not accidentally reporting the abuse to someone. It could even be a neighbor. Who will get back to him about what’s going on. **Kathy:** Can I give you an example of what something safe might sound like? **Anne:** Sure, yeah. **Kathy:** This is the conversation I have with everybody who calls me from the moment the phone rings, and I pick up the phone. I say, listen, before we get into what you want to tell me about, there are a few things I want you to know about me. ## HOW TO IDENTIFY SAFE HELPERS **Kathy:** First and foremost, I believe you. You don’t have to convince me of anything. I know that if you’re reaching out to me, it’s because you are in a storm of unsafety and feeling betrayal trauma symptoms for yourself and your kids. That you are so desperate that you need support. I let them know right from the beginning, I believe you. There’s no having to tell me anything that you don’t want to tell me to get to a place where I believe you. And anybody who would qualify their statement by saying, I have to check in with the other party. No, you don’t. No, you do not. Nobody likes to identify themselves as victims, least of all victims, because there’s no crown at the end of victimization. There isn’t anybody giving us a standing ovation. Nobody likes to identify as a victim. So, when somebody says, I’m being victimized by somebody. We, the society around them, need to say, “Okay, we believe you. How can we help you?” **Anne:** Absolutely, if you have to twist yourself in all kinds of ways to get someone to believe you, they are not safe. **Kathy:** Not a safe person, yeah. **Anne:** That’s a good one. If they have to check in with the other person. Or think, well, this is this side of the story. But you know, every story has two sides. **Kathy:** It takes two to tango! Yeah. **Anne:** It takes one to not tango. I mentioned this before when I was talking about how sometimes I talk to victims and they tell me that part of their story. And it includes some victim blaming or it includes some of the abuse that they’ve experienced that they don’t recognize is abuse. So they’re parroting the abuse. ## THE BURDEN OF PROVING VICTIMIZATION **Anne:** Again, not their fault. They don’t understand what’s happening. They believe certain things about themselves due to the abuse. Especially if her husband has [covert narcissist traits](/covert-narcissist-traits/). And so their experience when they describe it, usually a therapist’s role is to validate that and help them move through that. So how do we validate their betrayal trauma harms and support victims and their live experience, while also educating them about abuse and what has happened to them? **Kathy:** And I think this goes back to a concept I was talking about earlier. I said, I have them share their experiences in their words to me, then I will ask permission. Would it be okay if I reframe this? You know, you’re telling me that he forces you to have relations when you’re feeling sick. Or when you’re not feeling up to feeling loving. Can I reframe that for you? In most states, that would be considered assault. Even if you’re married, or even if you’re in partnership. So if you’re not feeling up to having relations, if you’re feeling sick or tired. And you haven’t given consent, that is a form of assault. That’s many times how this conversation comes to me. Because the women I talk with tell me all kinds of examples of how their partner refused to take no for an answer. And they’re ticking off almost every checkbox regarding assault. And yet they won’t call it assault. So for me to say like, is it okay if I reframe this for you and give you my perspective on it? If they’re like, no. I had a survivor once who was angry with me because she absolutely 100% percent believed that she was codependent with her perpetrator. ## REFRAMING & EDUCATING ABOUT ABUSE **Kathy:** It was a Facebook conversation. I said, I’d like to reframe this for you. This is why codependency is problematic, it is a victim blaming concept. That victim blocked me after getting upset with me and explaining her reasoning and why it made sense to her. Sure, I make mistakes. It’s important that I acknowledge them. I needed to hear why that perspective was important to her. I still think it is appropriate to allow that reframing. So that they can start shifting their understanding, their lack of understanding leaves them in abuse. It may be for other people that they contact. It’s about making sure we’re gently educating as long as somebody has the capacity to hear it. If they don’t have that capacity yet, it’s okay to let it be for now. Just encourage them to get other perspectives and other education. Sometimes they hang on to that perspective. out of a survival mechanism or survival skill. And we don’t want to take away what is helping them survive. **Anne:** I can see better now that I am post abuse, but I remember being there. I remember people saying little things to me and me, like pushing it away or thinking that that wasn’t the case. Only to realize later, oh, that was it. And it was a survival mechanism for me. It is for all survivors. **Kathy:** Another reframe that I ask people to do a lot is that the concept of that idea of, well, that victim is lying to me. I’m not going to help her because she’s lying to me. I say to the person who’s saying that, the person who wants to be the helper, can we please reframe that and think about it, as she’s not ready to trust you yet? ## THE RIGHT TO EDIT YOUR STORY **Kathy:** As opposed to she’s lying to me, and when I think of it that way, when I say this person isn’t ready to trust me yet, I can go back to them. And say, listen, I can understand that you don’t know if I’m trustworthy yet. If you don’t want to tell me something, it’s okay. If I ask you a question, it’s never to deny your experience or to challenge you. It’s only to make sure I fully understand what’s happening, so I can get you to the best help possible. But if you don’t trust me with information, it’s okay to keep it to yourself until you feel I am trustworthy. That just allows women to just like have this big burden roll off their shoulders. Like, she’s not going to accuse me of lying. Because I, as a helper, no matter how good my intentions are. Until they understand who I am and how I work, I don’t get the privilege of automatic access to their victimization story. It’s bold of me to think that I might. And it is important that victims have the right to edit their stories by how safe they are feeling in my presence. ## KATHY’S WEBSITE & FINAL THANKS **Anne:** Thank you so much for the work you do. You are incredible. And I appreciate you taking the time to share with us. Kathy will be back on the podcast, talking about a few other topics. We’ll talk about how kids become abusers aligned through the abusers, gaslighting and manipulation of the children. And also talk about the unique challenges, heartaches, and hardships of mothers accused of “parental alienation.” To maintain control and coercively control her and her children. We’ll cover those topics in a few months. So stay tuned, because she is an amazing advocate and has so much to share with you. **Kathy:** Thank you, Anne. You do amazing work, too. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast **Tags:** emotional abuse --- ### [How to Tell Emotional Abuse vs Normal Conflict](https://www.btr.org/emotional-abuse-vs-normal-conflict/) **Published:** February 25, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** You deserve emotional safety no matter what anyone says. Here's what you need to know. **Content:** What’s the difference between emotional abuse and normal conflict? I’ll dive into that below. When we’re figuring out the difference between emotional abuse vs normal conflict, it’s important to focus on emotional safety either way. Step one would be to take an [emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/) to see if what you’re experiencing is emotional abuse. ## UNDERSTANDING EMOTIONAL ABUSE VS NORMAL CONFLICT **Emotional Abuse:** Emotional abuse is manipulating someone’s emotions to exploit them. Because it’s aim is exploitation, it causes significant damage to the victim’s sense of self. **Normal Conflict:** Normal conflicts are an inevitable part of any relationship. These types of benign conflicts are caused by differences in opinions, values, or expectations, but there’s no exploitation involved. Normal conflicts happen with two healthy people who care about each other and want the best for each other. When a husband uses online explicit material or cheats on his wife, it’s a form of emotional abuse that deeply affects her. Normal conflicts don’t cause infidelIty, it’s emotional abuse. ## WHAT IS EMOTIONAL SAFETY Many women in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community share stories of feeling alone—when friends dismiss their accounts of emotional abuse. Sometimes clergy or therapists discount emotional abuse victims, especially when their emotionally abusive husband lies to the clergy or therapist about what’s going on. In many religious communities, marriage is more important than a person’s feelings or emotional safety. Which doesn’t make sense, since the point of marriage is emotional safety. This type of abuse violates the essence of marriage. Choosing safety doesn’t mean ending your marriage. Your husband’s decision to be emotionally abusive has already broken that trust. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we emphasize that safety encompasses several aspects of life: - **Physical Safety**: Make sure you meet basic needs like shelter, food, and clothing. Removing yourself from immediate emotional threats. - **Emotional and Psychological Safety**: Finding an environment where you can express yourself without fear of judgment or retaliation. - **Spiritual Safety**: Your beliefs are respected and not used against you. - **Financial Safety**: Gaining control over your financial resources and decisions. - **Sexual Safety**: Having autonomy over your own body and choices. ## STEPS TO BEGIN YOUR JOURNEY: 1. **Separate Yourself from Harm**: - Enroll in [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) to learn what type of abuse you’re dealing with (or even if he’s actually abusive), and then what strategies to use to keep yourself emotionally safe. 2. **Surround Yourself with Support**: - [Connect with support groups or communities like Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions where you can share your story without judgment.](https://www.btr.org/group/) 3. **Practice Self-Care**: - Focus on basic needs like nutrition, hydration, and sleep to maintain your physical health. 4. **Educate Yourself About Abuse**: - [Understanding abuse dynamics can empower you and provide clarity on your situation. Listen to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast.](https://www.btr.org/podcast/) ## TRANSCRIPT: HOW TO TELL EMOTIONAL ABUSE VS NORMAL CONFLICT **Anne:** Welcome to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. This is Anne. I’m so excited to have Natalie on today’s episode. She’s the author of *All the Scary Little Gods*, and I’m so excited to have her on today. Welcome, Natalie. ![You Deserve Safety from This Type of Abuse Emotional Abuse is Just As Painful and Can Take Longer to Heal from](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Recovery-and-Healing-From-Emotional-Abuse.webp "Recovery and Healing from Emotional Abuse")**Natalie:** Thank you so much. I’m excited to be here. **Anne:** You’re amazing. I’ve always appreciated your work. Especially all the interesting and fascinating deconstruction that you do with spiritual abuse. I love it. You’re so smart. And it’s just, it’s fun to have you here. Let’s start by talking about your new book, *All the Scary Little Gods*. **Natalie:** I wanted to tell my story. Because I wanted to help women stuck in fundamentalist programming. Who maybe weren’t able to read. Or had the capacity and interest in reading a scholarly type or non-fiction book about deprogramming. In fact, that might even scare them off a little bit. But they might want to read a story about it. So, instead of telling people how to walk this journey, you know, do step one, two, and three. I wanted to show them what a potential journey of deprogramming and deconstructing might look like. Especially for women who weren’t ready to give up their faith. But wanted to figure out how their faith aligned with goodness and love and their core values. I think it was like the English teacher in me saying, show, don’t tell. **Anne:** I loved that it felt so honest, you are expressing that inner dialogue. Helping women know you’re not crazy. Everybody thinks these things. ## DISCUSSING ALL TYPES OF EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Natalie:** Yes, exactly. The first part I wrote from my younger self. So you kind of hear about my childhood from that perspective. Fortunately, I kept journals. And when I read through them, I heard the arguments inside of me. Part of me would argue in my journal and think one way, and then another part of me would think a different way. And so I just started listening to those parts of me and figuring out, like, what were their concerns? I had many different kinds of concerns that were almost contradictory in many ways. I think a lot of us do. Many of us have conflicting thoughts inside of us. And then we think, am I schizophrenic? Am I crazy? What is my problem? Why do I know one thing with my head? But then on the other hand, I keep making these other decisions over here, and I can’t seem to get any traction in my life. **Anne:** Can you talk about those concepts of deprogramming? The [effects of spiritual abuse](https://www.btr.org/effects-of-spiritual-abuse/) are so damaging how did you figure out for yourself if faith is right for you? ## DEPROGRAMMING & DECONSTRUCTING FAITH **Natalie:** I feel like it’s a very individual process. If I said, Oh, well, my path led me down this road, and I kept my Christian faith. And so therefore, that’s the right way. Then all I’m doing is repeating what I grew up with. So I think giving yourself freedom to sift through the beliefs you maybe have. And decide which ones have served you in your life and have served the people around you. And actually align with what you choose to believe about a creator God. Or however you want to describe that God and which ones don’t. Because for me, I kind of boiled it down to love. And when I looked at the life of Jesus Christ and what he represented, I decided he represented love and was a deconstructionist. So when we deconstruct, I feel like we’re walking in the footsteps of Jesus, whether we align ourselves with him or not. That’s what we’re doing. I decided that love was the bottom line for me. What about my faith was actually expansive or expanding love in my own life for myself first. Then for my family, and then for those around me into the world, and what things were actually fostering more oppression, more abuse, more control and power over systems. I realized that much of what I believed actually contradicted love. So I removed things from my life and focused on emotional abuse vs normal conflict. I also opened myself up to my children choosing their own paths, with some deciding to completely walk away from their faith. ## THE CONCEPT OF LOVE IN FAITH **Natalie:** I don’t have any fear about that anymore, like I used to. But again, it’s because of what I now believe about God. I was scared of God before. Because the God I worshiped was very little and scary. I bowed down, worshiped, placated and catered to many other little scary gods in my life. That sort of represented that scary God. I needed to get rid of that kind of thinking to truly love myself and other people. And honestly, in order to really love God. I don’t think that when we’re afraid of something, we can enter intimacy and love for that other person. **Anne:** Or God, right? Absolutely agreed. ![You Deserve Safety Now: How To Heal From Emotional Abuse](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/AE3vGT6blBg/maxresdefault.jpg) **Natalie:** And it’s a way of looking at ourselves that recognizes that we each have different parts inside of us. And those parts have their own beliefs or programming based on our life experiences. Some parts try to prevent pain in our lives by working hard to manage the circumstances. And the people in our lives or to manage us. They might think, for example, that if only we could make people like us or do what we need them to do for us, then we would be happy and avoid pain. Now there are other parts of us that will spring into action if our other parts are unsuccessful in preventing that pain. What they don’t understand is that they want to use some methods to help us get that immediate relief. And learn how tell the difference between emotional abuse and normal conflict. ## THE BUS ANALOGY TO HEAL FROM EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Natalie:** When I tried to explain this to my children, I had some teenagers wanting to understand this, and I gave them this analogy of a bus. If you can imagine you are the driver of the bus, and you’re driving your bus through life, wherever you want to go. As the driver of our bus, this is my belief. Our creator didn’t put us in charge of anyone else’s bus, just our own. He didn’t put anyone else in charge of our bus, just us. We are the driver connected and at one with our creator. Though some of us may not know that. The other parts of us are on the bus. I imagined my other parts with all their ideas and thoughts. And about how to manage my life to prevent pain sitting on one side of my bus. Then on the other side of my bus were all my parts ready to fly into action when I felt a negative emotion. Way in the backseat of the bus are younger versions of us hiding and maybe curled up in the fetal position. And these young parts of us carry all our pain, past trauma, and confusion. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) Losing a friend in an accident. Growing up in poverty, or in an overly strict home. Or having a parent with a mental health issue or substance abuse issue. Or anything else that would have caused us harm or emotional pain. ## LISTENING TO MY OWN BELIEFS & INNER THOUGHTS **Natalie:** Sometimes, the parts on our bus disagree about what is the best course of action. They can judge each other. They fight. I used to think there was something wrong with me. Because I had all these opposing thoughts. I couldn’t figure out which ones I should obey. I kind of saw my inner voices, as just more of the little scary gods in my life, shouting orders. And threatening me if I didn’t do everything right. But now that I am aware of this, I’m not afraid of these little parts anymore. I can hear these thoughts in my head, and I think, oh, these are different parts of me. So that’s when I try to slow down and tune in. And listen to what each individual part is trying to communicate to me. I’m not listening to something outside myself. I listen to my own beliefs and inner thoughts. If I don’t ever slow things down and stop to listen, I’m never going to know what’s going on inside of me. And then I won’t have the self awareness that I need to address these issues that I’m struggling with. These parts of us, they also need an empathetic witness to determine if it’s emotional abuse or just regular conflict. And find peace and calm in our bodies. And we are, or can be, that empathetic witness for ourselves. I think it’s miraculous and comforting to know that our creator within us also partners with us inside of our core self to be that empathetic witness. ## USING SELF-COMPASSION TO DETERMINE WHAT’S GOING ON **Natalie:** Our opportunity and challenge is to address those parts of us confused and hurting, and move towards those parts in love and compassion. Finding what’s going on, and finding out what they believe. And then loosening up their thinking a little bit. So that those parts of us can experience the warmth, the light, and the love God has for us. **Anne:** That’s beautiful. It’s such a good way to describe it. I think the way you describe it is way more effective, but I’ve described it like this, it’s competing values. Because you’re like, I need to be safe, but I also want to be obedient, so trying to figure out what the best thing to do is. **Natalie:** Or even like, I need to be safe, but I also want to be vulnerable and have intimacy with someone. How do you get both things? Well, sometimes that depends on the other person, and figuring that out within yourself is so important. Because you don’t want to make yourself vulnerable to someone who isn’t safe to be around. **Anne:** Unfortunately, religion didn’t teach us about safety. They taught us about evil in a way that didn’t help us be safe. I think about that a lot, because there are so many people checking the religious boxes who are actually evil. They’re not safe at all. And yet they’re religious leaders, or they’re in that power over dynamic that is so harmful. And so deconstructing all that takes a long time, and it takes listening to yourself. **Natalie:** And we’re taught that we can’t trust ourselves. It’s interesting using the word safety. ## WHY DO RELIGIOUS WOMEN STRUGGLE TO IDENTIFY ABUSE? **Natalie:** We’re taught to glorify suffering. So when you’re not safe, you are suffering. So it’s almost like you’re glorifying being in a state of unsafety and hyper arousal to trauma, because that’s the spiritual thing to do. And of course, if you think that’s a problem, then you must not trust God. I just think many beliefs have been put in place by people who have really twisted the Bible. Or twisted religious thoughts to serve themselves and enable them to abuse people. I mean some of these guys will get involved with the [distribution of intimate content without consent.](/distribution-of-intimate-images-without-consent-federal/) When I was diagnosed with complex post-traumatic stress disorder, I started connecting the dots in my own life. I learned what CPTSD actually is—and I saw clearly how I ended up here. That clarity forced me to face something deeper: this wasn’t normal conflict. Something else had been happening all along. And there are three things that can trigger CPTSD. One is an uneven power dynamic. Which happens with women of faith in abusive marriages. There’s an uneven power dynamic when you are in a marriage with someone who is powering over you and abusing you. And then the second thing that can cause C PTSD is repetitive, prolonged trauma. So it’s not just one incident. It’s years and years of invalidation, criticism, gaslighting, all that kind of stuff happening over a period of time. Death by a million cuts, some people will say, or a million bee stings. And then the third part is, the perception that there is no escape. A lot of Christian women actually could get out, but they don’t think they can. Because they’ve been programmed to believe they’re not allowed to get a divorce. So that was dot number one. ## THE IMPORTANCE OF AN EMPATHETIC WITNESS **Natalie:** The second dot, the other missing piece in my life was an empathetic witness to my experiences. Nobody believed me. I felt like I was in a glass bubble for most of my life, suffocating, screaming and banging on the glass for someone to see me. And hear me and let me out. And people would just walk right by and completely ignore me. So there’s a lot of deflection and spiritualization of abuse and pain in Christian circles. And there’s this theology too, in many Christian circles, that men have rights and privileges that women don’t have. And also that women are often blamed for many things, like being a stumbling block for men with our bodies. Or trying to emasculate men simply because we might have a different opinion or thought. Or maybe we could be more educated than them, or have a better idea than they do. And then we’re accused of emasculating men. **Anne:** Heaven forbid, I was accused of emasculating my ex, so yes. **Natalie:** So dehumanizing. I think the only way out of this mess is for the individual woman to find her own voice, power, and autonomy. And to take that back to herself. I believe now that we do that by turning toward ourselves and becoming that empathetic witness that we have needed our entire lives. This is how we heal our inner world. There’s also a theme throughout my life of missing a mother to show me what this looks like. I thought I had a wonderful mother, bizarrely. But as it turned out, she was never able to heal herself. So she ended up unable to see, hear or validate my perspective. ## DETERMINING EMOTIONAL ABUSE VS NORMAL CONFLICT: LISTEN TO THE SPIRIT WITHIN **Natalie:** So part of my healing was learning how to actually be that mother to myself. **Anne:** It’s confusing. At church on Sunday, someone said 10 things Jesus never said. And she proceeded to say, Listen to yourself is one of the things Jesus never said. He said, listen to the Spirit. As I’m sitting there, I’m thinking, how do I know if it’s emotional abuse if I agree with both things? I want to listen to the Spirit, but the Spirit is my inner voice. The Spirit is leading me to truth. And to tell people, don’t listen to yourself, listen to God. But then who do they want God to be? The leader of the church who’s saying, no, no, no, keep your mouth shut, sit down. Or the actual Spirit inside of you that tells you what’s right for you. ## HOW MUCH CONFLICT IS NORMAL IN A RELATIONSHIP? **Anne:** Sometimes it gets so complex as a believer to think, well, is this me? Is this God? Is this something else? Can you talk about the conflict women feel that maybe their inner voice is a healthy, safe person to follow? Especially if they’re getting that type of spiritual abuse. **Natalie:** You know, what is the motivation behind teaching something specific like that? Yes, there’s some truth, but also someone can teach something and have an ulterior motive or reason. Maybe they aren’t even aware of it. So sometimes calling out people’s motives is important. When Jesus left the earth, he said, “Don’t worry, I’m going to give you a gift.” And it wasn’t the Bible. The gift he promised was the Holy Spirit. He said, “I’m going to give you a helper who’s going to guide you in all things.” Each person was given the Holy Spirit inside of them. It’s like [affirmations for emotional abuse victims.](/affirmations-for-emotional-abuse-victims/) ## PARTNERING WITH GOD IN DECISION MAKING **Natalie:** So I tell people, God is partnering with you in your core. You’re never going to get it all right, because you’ve got different parts of you and that are wounded. As they should be in this world. People sometimes ask me, why is it that I have all this trouble in the way I think? Sometimes I make choices I don’t want to make. And I’m like, that’s because you’re just a normal human being. There’s nothing wrong with you. You’re normal. And God didn’t say, I’m going to create all these gods and goddesses. He created humans. And so what is that amazing thing that happens when we can partner with God, our Creator, in making decisions? And moving through life, and also be open to making mistakes. I’ve got some new grandchildren. They’re all under one. My son had triplets, and then my daughter had a baby at the same time. So I’ve got these four babies. They’re all almost one. So they’re learning how to crawl and stand. Let’s say I was to take my granddaughter, we were going to go in the backyard and hang out. If she tried to walk and she fell, or she tried to climb over something too hard for her to climb over, I’m not gonna berate her. And say, I can’t believe you tried to do that, that’s so ridiculous. I’m also not gonna hold her and put her down and let her explore. And make her own decisions about, like, I wanna look at this flower, I wanna climb over this rock. ## LEARNING & GROWING THROUGH MISTAKES **Natalie:** As a good grandma, I’m gonna love her and put her down and let her explore. And I’m going to be with her. I’m going to be here to catch her when she falls. But our kids will fall off their bikes. They’re going to make mistakes. They’re going to date someone who’s the wrong person, and end up getting their heartbroken. That’s part of living this life on earth. And God’s not up there going, okay, you’re my puppet. I’m going to tell you where to go and what to do. And if you do everything exactly, as I say, nothing bad will happen to you. And that’s how everyone will know that you are a good Christian. You will make all the right decisions. You will know exactly what decision to make when you come to a fork in the road. That’s not true. None of that is true. I wouldn’t have ever said that or articulated it like that. But honestly, that’s what I believed. And that is very baffling, and it doesn’t make any sense. And it does bring a lot of shame then, because when you make a mistake. Like for example, I married someone I thought God wanted me to marry. And it turns out it was a very, very bad decision, but God was with me through all of it. And I don’t look back at that and go, “God, why did you make me do that?” God didn’t make me do that. I made that choice myself based on what I had been programmed to believe about marriage, about my job as a godly person, and what I needed to do to fulfill that role. And so I made a choice based on my understanding at that time. ## HOW TO HEAL FROM EMOTIONAL ABUSE VS NORMAL CONFLICT **Natalie:** And then 25 years later, I decided to divorce him based on my more updated understanding. Of how life works, you know, 25 years later, I’ve told my kids, you’re going to make mistakes. You’re going to buy the wrong house that loses its value, make a bad investment, take a bad job or possibly marry the wrong person. But that’s okay. That’s part of God allowing you this amazing, beautiful privilege of living a life. And you also get to change your mind and pivot any time you need to. And we can’t always pivot out of everything, but we can pivot out of many things. Sometimes when a hurricane, tornado or fire comes through and destroys the community. You will see that 10 years later, that community has been rebuilt. It looks different. It’s not the same community anymore. We can rebuild our lives and we can start over when we do make mistakes. And I think God is all in on all of that. **Anne:** Yeah, that’s the reason we came here to learn and grow. **Natalie:** Exactly. **Anne:** just like your granddaughter. You can’t do it without doing it. **Natalie:** That’s exactly right. **Anne:** Speaking about learning and growing, one of my jobs and your jobs as a podcaster is to educate people about spiritual and emotional abuse. There are two parts. There’s the part where you’re spiritually and emotionally abused, and you don’t know that you are and your body’s reacting to that. And then there’s your reactions after you’re educated about it now that you know what you’re looking at. ## UNDERSTANDING REACTIONS TO ABUSE **Anne:** How do our bodies react when faced with [spiritual abuse in marriage](https://www.btr.org/spiritual-abuse-symptoms/ "spiritual abuse in marriage")? **Natalie:** I began to look back to my experiences growing up, as well as my 25 year marriage to an emotionally and spiritually abusive man. I finally understood why I reacted in so many different ways to those experiences, which is why I decided to write my book. I wanted to allow those different parts to tell a portion of my story. One of the biggest things I hear Christian women saying about their marriages and lives is that they’re so confused. If we’re confused, we can’t problem solve. We have to know what the problem is, or we’re not going to find a solution. So I learned that I was confused. Because there were different parts of me who had different ways of thinking. So one part of me minimized it. I call her Rosie. One part of me exaggerated it and believed I was doomed, and my children were all doomed. Another part of me spiritualized it and viewed it as a badge of honor to be an abuse victim for Jesus. **Anne:** Wow. I’ve never heard that before, and I have to say it. Okay, this is Natalie’s, but I’m quoting her, “an abuse victim for Jesus.” That is amazing. **Natalie:** I know, it’s really sad. It’s really sad. **Anne:** I just, there’s so many people who are an abuse victim for Jesus. **Natalie:** They have that badge and… **Anne:** Yeah. ## THE ROLE OF “RUDE” IN SELF-LIBERATION **Natalie:** Wear it with pride. Yeah, I had this other part, I call her my rude part, and she’s my truth teller. My mother used to tell me I was rude, and when I became a teenager, I started seeing things for what they were, and started calling them out. And ooh, I would get in bad trouble for that. But my mom would tell me that I was rude. But rude showed up regularly with her analysis of what happened. All my other parts outnumbered rude. And I had been programmed, you know, from childhood to believe that rude was my rebellious, sinful part. Don’t listen to that voice. You know, rude will get me into trouble, but rude was ultimately the part of me inside of myself who set me free in many ways. So how do our bodies react? Well, I think that depending on which part of us were blended or flooded with at any given time, our body’s going to react that way. So after an abuse incident, like if my husband had just gotten done, telling me everything was my fault. That I was a horrible person, basically projecting all the things he did onto me. My melancholy part would just want to die. I had so much self loathing. I could not please my husband. He insisted everything was my fault, and my experiences were all in my head. So I just thought I was going crazy, and the pain in my body was so deep and dark. And hurts like physically hurt. I often wished I could just die because it hurt so bad. ## LIVING WITH ANXIETY & OVER PERFORMANCE WHEN IT’S EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Natalie:** But then I had this other part of me, I call it freaked, and my freaked part had anxiety about everything. So what that part does in my body is it’s constantly on an adrenaline high. It makes me want to over-perform to please everyone, so they won’t criticize or get angry at me. So I get up in the morning and I’m like, I got to make sure the house is clean. I make all these phone calls, and take a meal to these people. And I got to make sure I homeschool my kids just right. All those things, that was my freaked part. That’s how freaked was showing up in my body. After an abuse incident, my Rosie part would always kick in. And tell me all the things I had to be thankful for, and that I should believe the best. I should forgive and forget. And she would encourage another part of me to shut down my memory, and to this day, I have lost huge chunks of my memory. The only reason I could write a book was because I kept journals during that time. Although I would tear out pages that described the abuse in detail, which is unfortunate. Because it would have been better to have more details. I believe love kept no record of wrongs, and I loved my husband. So I would write down details as soon as it would happen. Then I would tear those out, but Rosie would help, so I experienced some relief almost from the pain. And yeah, all those parts, they all played a role, not that I was keeping myself in a cycle. ## ROOTED BELIEFS & PROGRAMMING **Natalie:** It’s those rooted beliefs that other people had downloaded into me. **Anne:** I was about to respectfully maybe disagree. Not that I want to disagree with you, because I would like to validate you. But I also was like, well, wait a minute. Was it really you? Or was it what you had been programmed to believe? **Natalie:** Absolutely, that’s a good way to distinguish it. They were my beliefs, but they had been programmed into me. It would be like a science fiction thing, where you take a new baby, and you plug these little things into their brain. And you download it like a computer. That baby will grow up, and it will do all the behaviors it was programmed to do. The only way that person will be set free is if he can access help that takes that old program out and puts in a new program. ## “LIKE IS THIS AMOUNT OF CONFLICT NORMAL IN A RELATIONSHIP?” **Anne:** Because both of us, in our jobs, what we do is to help women see. To give them permission to know that it’s okay to think that thing they’re pushing against. **Natalie:** That’s exactly it, because we have these parts that are like, I can’t believe you think that. Like, why would you think that? That’s so dumb to think that, or I can’t believe you stay. It’s so dumb that you stay. No, there are good reasons why those younger parts of us believe those things. Really good reasons that number one, they were programmed to believe them. But also, especially when you’re a child, you are using strategies as a child to simply survive. You can’t just leave your family, you can’t divorce your parents. Even if one of them can’t do [co parenting with a narcissistic co parent](/co-parenting-with-a-narcissistic-parent/). You rely and depend on them for your world. ## CHILDHOOD PROGRAMMING & SURVIVAL **Natalie:** And children tend to view themselves as the problem. And they tend to view their parents as, you know, the gods and the parents know everything. And so if the parents project their own crap on the child or use the child in different ways. The child will think that’s what the child’s role is. And those child parts are still inside of you, fully believing those things. If our adult self looks at those parts and goes, well, that’s dumb. I don’t know why you think that. And we have all this inner self loathing, the parts will double down inside of us and go, yup, see, I knew it. I have to hang on to this. I have to learn how to identify emotional abuse. We stay because we’re scared to death of rocking the boat. We’re scared to death of getting kicked out of all the love circles. We believe that if we get kicked out, we will die. That’s what those parts of us believe. And those are good reasons to stay. We believe something bad could happen to our children. A good reason to stay. We have good reasons for believing what we believe. So loosening up, like you said, we both do this work of loosening up those beliefs. They’re beliefs that younger parts of us have inside of us. But if you can move towards those beliefs and understand them and go, it makes total sense why you’d think that and have compassion and curiosity. ## KNOWING IF IT’S EMOTIONAL ABUSE: LOOSENING UP BELIEFS **Natalie:** And I wonder where that belief came from. And I wonder where you learned that. And I wonder how it’s reinforced throughout your life. That’s the way it should be. And I wonder if there are other ways we could look at this that might be more helpful, or that might actually set you free or be more life giving for you. **Anne:** It’s so exciting to see women think about things differently in a way that is good. And when I say in a way that is good, we’ve been programmed to think that the way we’re thinking about, like divorce, maybe. Or just separating yourself from harm, or maybe even just not making bread. You don’t have to make bread. Some women, the second you give them permission, hear something and realize, oh, I didn’t know I didn’t have to do that. **Natalie:** Yeah, when I was in the thick of living in an abusive world all around me, I was gaslit and programmed with the idea that there was something fundamentally wrong with me. So of course, there was this tremendous shame and confusion in my body, and I couldn’t make sense of the contradictory beliefs. I’m trying to figure it out. I realized that these beliefs were not who I was. They weren’t my identity, but rather long held programming that I acquired through no fault of my own , that’s when I could create some distance between me and these parts of me that held these beliefs. ## EXCOMMUNICATION & LOSS **Natalie:** And I could look at them with compassion and curiosity and move toward them. Like we mentioned before, just asking them questions about when they started believing that thing, and why they hold on to that belief, and how they think that belief is keeping me safe. So for example, if I hung on to this belief that there was something wrong with me. Then when someone disagreed with me or didn’t like me, I could make it about me. Well, that’s because there’s something wrong with me. And then I could continue to reach out to them and give them their way. And if I did that, they would like me and allow me to be in their love circle. I mean, it’s so twisted. But I realized. That’s what I actually do in this dynamic. Not even realizing it might be emotional abuse. But if I let go of that belief that there was something wrong with me. Well, that kind of scared me, because if I did that, I might just stand up for what I believed. I might stop giving them their way, and that would get me into deep, deep trouble with other people. And they might kick me out. And then if that happened, I would die. There was a part of me that truly believed I would not survive it if I was kicked out. That is exactly what ultimately happened when I stopped obeying everyone around me. I was maligned, lied about, talked about and lost my reputation, my credibility. And then I was excommunicated from my church and my family of origin hasn’t talked to me for five years. ## ISOLATION FROM FAMILY **Natalie:** So to this day, I can’t even go to a funeral for an extended family member. This recently happened, without people turning away from me and shunning me. Because they believe only God knows what about me. I don’t even know that I had to be willing to lose all those scary little gods in my life to find a big loving creator God. And I also had to lose all the scary little people in my life in order to find a woman, myself, named Natalie. The best decision ever, but man, was it painful? **Anne:** I love that you bring that up. You are searching to figure out what’s going on. Like you lost so much, but would say you feel better? **Natalie:** Oh yeah. **Anne:** One of the things I talk about is that I live in the mountains of Utah. And I love to ski, and there’s a pitch on any run where it looks like a cliff. And you have to get kind of close to the edge of that pitch to realize it’s not a cliff. It’s just the rest of the slope, and you can ski down it. That happens in hiking too. You get to it and you think, oh, I can’t get close to that. It’s a cliff. But then if you look over, you realize, Oh no, it’s just a slope. It’s fine. It’s okay. Come look over the pitch. You’re going to be safe. The nightmare scenario that you were just terrified of being excommunicated, having everyone think you’re terrible. That happened, and yet it was what set you free. Would you mind talking about that for a little bit? ## FINDING FREEDOM OUTSIDE THE SANDBOX **Natalie:** Yeah. That analogy is so beautiful. I love it. That perfectly describes my experience with this. A lot of our fear is just fear of the unknown, but once you actually walk through it daily, it definitely hurts. It’s not like it doesn’t hurt, but at least I found it wasn’t as bad as I thought, as far as it didn’t kill me. It was painful, but when I was in that environment, it was almost like I thought that was the whole world. I had to get out of it to realize how… How I describe it is. Imagine an ocean with a big beach, where you can look as far to the right as you want and as far to the left as you want. All you can see is the horizon. So it just goes on forever. It seems like on the beach, even. And then imagine the church that kicked me out is a little sandbox on one little part of the beach. That’s maybe four feet by four feet. And there’s some kids playing in that sandbox. And that was my church. I thought when I was in the sandbox with the kids, that was the world. And when I got kicked out and started wandering on this big beach, feeling lost and alone. What I discovered is that there are all kinds of beautiful people on the beach that were never in that sandbox. And I am free and I don’t have a sandbox anymore. Now I’ve got miles and miles and miles of beach to explore and other people in the world to get to know. And they don’t all have the same beliefs as what the people in my sandbox had. ## THE GIFT OF BEING DISLIKED **Natalie:** And there’s so much relief. I was under so much pressure and stress to be someone I wasn’t when I was in that sandbox. And there was so much threatening. If you do this, then this is what’s going to happen to you. You better do it our way. You better do, A, B, and C. And so there’s always that fear. Once I got out on the beach, I could run and play. The Bible in Psalms, it talks about setting our feet in spacious places. That’s what I felt like God did. He plucked me out of that sandbox and set my feet in spacious places that I could run and be free. And experience more of life than ever. The people always told me never to get out of the in the sandbox. There’s danger out there. It was just manipulation, right, and lies. And then when they finally just kicked me out. It was like the best thing ever happened to me. I could figure out if it was emotional abuse or just normal conflict. **Anne:** I’ve thought about that a lot with people who don’t like me. And I’m like, thank you. I don’t have to worry about how I am around you or anything. If you don’t like me, that’s a gift to me. I mean, I’ve come to this now. I’m not saying I’ve been like this forever, but it’s very, like, freeing. Instead of them saying, well, I’m not going to like you unless you do, you know, this, this, and this. **Natalie:** Right. Cause then you can just be like, okay, then don’t like me. **Anne:** Yeah! **Natalie:** It’s a free world. **Anne:** Great. Problem solved, right? ## ALIGNING MEDITATION WITH CHRISTIAN FAITH **Anne:** I created [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/), which has 13 meditations that I wrote specifically for abuse victims. I was concerned because I’m Christian. But some Christian faiths don’t think meditation will be good for people and they’re worried about it. The meditations I wrote are faith neutral. And if people want to imagine the white light as Christ, they can do that or not. Or, you know, whatever they want to do. I sampled them with Christian women. Because I was rightfully concerned that it might offend them or conflict maybe, but as they took it, they were like, no, this was awesome. They thought it helped them learn how to figure out what’s happening. It completely fit in with my faith, even though I left the meditations spiritually neutral. ## WHEN THE AMOUNT OF CONFLICT ISN’T NORMAL IN A RELATIONSHIP How does this align with the Christian faith for Christians out there who are maybe nervous about trying something different? Especially if they’ve been spiritually abused. **Natalie:** The Christian faith should be about love. I know that’s not what we’re seeing in today’s modern and warped version of it. It’s full of hate and vitriol, and grabbing for power and control. Christianity is after Jesus Christ. He modeled something very different. Because he moved toward the outcasts and the lepers, and the sick and the poor. He offered peace, forgiveness, and grace. He promised to love us and never leave us or forsake us. So Christianity, which is supposed to be this religion that walks in the footsteps of Jesus, should look like that, right? Well, what I discovered and talk about in the last part of my book is that just because people don’t understand the way of Christ doesn’t mean that way isn’t available to us. It just didn’t feel like it when my [husband is taking advantage of me](/husband-is-taking-advantage-of-me/). ## HEALING EMOTIONAL ABUSE THROUGH COMPASSIONATE IDENTIFICATION **Natalie:** And my job isn’t to make other people follow rules or do what I think they should do. My job is to simply walk with Christ myself. And the starting place for that is within me. So instead of criticizing, hating on, beating up and running away from the parts inside of me who carry darker beliefs. Or proclivities due to their wounds or the burdens they carry. I have the opportunity to be like Christ. Who I say I follow and move toward those darker beliefs parts of me, with love, compassion and empathy. When I do that, those parts inside of me, unburdened from the beliefs that keep them trapped in fear and shame. Then they enter the light and love of God. The Bible says love casts out fear. So when we’re afraid. That’s our opportunity to figure out why am I afraid and where am I missing love? Like, where do I need to show myself some love? How can I get into safe spaces where I can experience freedom, joy, and peace? How can we hold others accountable who are imprisoning and abusing other human beings? Especially how can we offer dignity to ourselves and other human beings wherever they’re on their journey? That’s what I do, this is what you’re doing. We focus on healing that relationship that we have with our own lost and wounded parts first. And then when they heal, everything changes. **Anne:** In so many cases, the entire system oppresses a woman abuse victim. She is not receiving validation, love, or freedom from oppression. ## CHRIST’S MISSION AGAINST OPPRESSION Anne: Which is what Christ came to do. I mean, he’s our Savior. I say all the time, he is the deliverer, the savior. He did not come to oppress anyone, he came to save them and deliver them from oppression. He would want them to know what’s going on. **Natalie:** If we’re Christians, we’re as representatives in the world. Where we’re not doing that is where we have deviated from the Christian faith. In my opinion. **Anne:** I totally agree. Many people, mainly women, are oppressed. I worry about that. They submit because they’re asked to, but what they’re really submitting to is not God, it’s not goodness. They’re submitting to evil, and it freaks me out. **Natalie:** I believe if Christianity supported women getting out of abusive relationships. That would potentially force men to be the people God created them to be. But they won’t. As long as they’re not held accountable, as long as we’re just going to blame the victims, and we’re going to enable the abusers. And enable men to have these entitlement beliefs that women should meet their needs. So women should do everything they need. The men will never heal, and the women will always suffer. And run that risk of being in a bad relationship and having no support to get out. **Anne:** If their goal is to be an exploiter and not fill the measure of their creation, they’ve nailed it. **Natalie:** Yes. **Anne:** But I don’t think that’s what God intended for them. **Natalie:** No. ## HOW TO HEAL FROM EMOTIONAL ABUSE THE GROWING MOVEMENT FOR CHANGE **Anne:** And I think there are many amazing spiritual leaders who would agree with us. **Natalie:** Oh, absolutely. I think it is growing. **Natalie:** I know this wasn’t a Christian movement, but the me too movement opened up the conversation and it exploded. And now there are all kinds of nuanced conversations happening all over the place. Because Christians like us are standing up and going, this has to stop, and we’re calling it out. We have to know how to identify emotional abuse, and not just pass it off as everyday conflict. It has to start on the ground level with individuals. You know, hopefully we’ll see more and more women standing up and going. I’m not going to do this anymore, but it has to happen from the top down as well. And I don’t know what’s happening up there. That’s not my calling, but I definitely think there’s work to be done. **Anne:** I was going to say, are you sure Natalie, maybe starting a seminary? I just got revelation for you. I’m kidding. **Natalie:** I’ll think about that. **Anne:** Well, thank you so much, Natalie. I appreciate you coming on today. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Is My Husband Toxic? - When You Discover His Double Life](https://www.btr.org/is-my-husband-toxic/) **Published:** March 4, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Is your husband toxic if he lies to you and uses material that's toxic to women? **Content:** There’s another word for toxic – abusive. If you’re asking, “Is my husband toxic?” What you’re *really* asking is, is he emotionally or psychologically abusive. Here’s three things you need to know. ## WHAT DOES “TOXIC” MEAN? A toxic person uses manipulation, control, lies, and chaos to get what they want. Often, toxic men use emotional or psychological abuse tactics, which can be harder to detect than physical abuse, but is just as damaging. See if he’s using any one of these 19 different types of emotional abuse. If he is, he’s toxic. Take our [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/) to find out. ![I Think My Husband is Toxic](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/I-Think-My-Husband-Is-Toxic.webp "I Think My Husband is Toxic")Here are some red flags of toxic emotional or psychological abuse to watch out for in your marriage: #### 1. **Manipulation** Does your husband often twist situations to make you feel like you’re the problem, even when he’s clearly at fault? #### 2. **Control** Does he lie to control your perception of him, rather than meet you on equal grounds by telling the truth? #### 3. Objectification Does he objectify women or exploit women? ## QUESTIONS TO DETERMINE IF YOUR HUSBAND IS TOXIC If you’re unsure whether your husband’s behavior is toxic (abusive), ask yourself these questions: 1. Does he belittle my emotions, making me feel like I’m “too sensitive” or imagining things? 2. Does he undermine me by saying my friends or family don’t know what they’re talking about when they’re doing something to empower me? 3. When I express concerns, does he block conversation by storming off or shutting me down? Or start attacking me with the exact same “concerns” he’s never brought up before? 4. Does he dismiss or “forget” promises? 5. Has he ever lied to me about things he’s planning or what’s going to happen that he has no intention of ever actually planning or doing. 6. Does he frequently criticize, judge, or blame me instead of taking responsibility for his actions? 7. Do his words or actions make me feel small, unsafe, or like I’m constantly walking on eggshells? If you answered “yes” to any of these, take our free [test for emotional abuse](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/) that will help you know for sure. ![Know is My Husband Toxic](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Know-Is-My-Husband-Toxic.webp "Know is My Husband Toxic")## WHAT YOUR HUSBAND’S TOXIC BEHAVIOR DOES TO YOU Living with emotional or psychological abuse can lead to chronic stress, anxiety, depression, and feelings of worthlessness. It can make you question your reality, leading to something called “gaslighting,” where you’re manipulated into doubting your own experiences or memories. Over time, these effects will erode your mental health and self-esteem. ## YEP, YOUR HUSBAND IS TOXIC. WHAT CAN I DO? 1. **Acknowledge the Problem** The first step is recognizing that your husband’s behavior is abusive or toxic. It’s not “just how he is,” nor is it “your fault.” To learn more about this type of abuse, listen to [The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast](https://www.btr.org/podcast/). 2. **Seek The Right Support** Talk to trusted friends or family members about what you’re experiencing. You might also consider attending Group Sessions, like Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. These sessions provide a safe environment to share your experience with women who understand. 3. **Learn Strategies To Protect Yourself** If your husband is toxic, going to couples therapy or talking to a priest might make things worse for you. Toxic men often use tricks to blame you for the problems. They might even say your relationship or marriage is toxic, trying to make it seem like it’s partly your fault. His mean behavior isn’t your fault, even if it hurts you. Before talking to a counselor or Pastor, learn what he’ll do next by enrolling in [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). That way you’ll be one step ahead. ![is My Husband Toxic](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Is-My-Husband-Toxic.webp "is My Husband Toxic")## TRANSCRIPT: IS MY HUSBAND TOXIC? – WHEN YOU DISCOVER HIS DOUBLE LIFE **Anne:** Jessica is on today’s episode. She holds a bachelor’s degree in media studies and has an in-depth understanding of how the media impacts our lives and shapes our attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors. Jessica is a feminist and activist. She is also on the board of Culture Reframed, a nonprofit organization founded by Dr. Gail Dines, whose mission is to build resilience and resistance to hypersexualized media. Welcome, Jessica. **Jessica:** Thank you. I’m glad to be here. ![is My Boyfriend Toxic](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Is-My-Boyfriend-Toxic.webp "is My Boyfriend Toxic")**Anne:** Jessica, a lot of women come on my podcast. In fact, it’s the [\#1 podcast for betrayal trauma](https://www.btr.org/podcast/). These women share their stories.And when I told my friends and family, they were like, “Calm down. It’s not that big of a deal. Why are you freaking out? He’s such a good guy.” Even feminists say it’s not a big deal when he’s toxic in this way. ## IS HE TOXIC IF HE LIES? **Anne:** So as an activist, let’s talk about why feminists should be opposed to this type of toxic behavior. **Jessica:** There’s a lot of confusion and divisiveness around this topic, and a lot of misguided intention and misinformation. I just want to start by reading a quote from Rachel Moran, a trafficking survivor. She was a prostituted woman in her youth. And she is now exited and is an author and activist. She has a quote that says, “There is not now, never has been, and never will be, a feminist case for men to commercialize the bodies of women.” There are two types of feminism, the people who think it’s empowering. And the people like me who think there’s no benefit to the commercialization or commodification of women’s bodies. ![is He Toxic](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Is-He-Toxic.webp "is He Toxic")And the difference in language is that someone like me is a second wave feminist, another term for it is radical feminist. Radical simply means, the Latin root of the word radical is to get to the root of something. So radical feminists look at the overall system of oppression. Which means it’s patriarchy, and how patriarchy oppresses women and children. Radical feminists try to look at the root. The other type of [feminists who maybe would argue](https://www.btr.org/what-is-exploitative/) that this type of toxic behavior is empowering are typically referred to as liberal feminists. Third wave feminists, choice feminists, or even sex positive, which I shudder at. I’ll explain why it’s not positive later, but there’s major disagreement among people in these movements. ## FOCUS ON LIBERATION OF ALL WOMEN **Jessica:** So the third wave of people who think it’s empowering believe that if a woman makes the choice. No matter what the choice is, it’s empowering. Based on the fact that she’s getting to make the choice. So, they’re looking at individual empowerment for the actual individual. Whereas a second wave of feminism, like myself and Gail Dines. And so many other people in this movement are looking at what’s good for women as a class. So if I decide to be a stripper or go into the trade. In the big picture, it’s not only bad for me as a woman, it’s also bad for my sisters. It’s not good for women as a class, because it puts women at risk. and sends a message to society that women can be bought, sold, and rented by men. ![Signs I Have a Toxic Husband](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Signs-I-Have-A-Toxic-Husband.webp "Signs I Have a Toxic Husband")So our focus is on the liberation of all women. My goal is to help free all women from oppression under patriarchy. Not just go make my personal decision. For example, I wear makeup, but I don’t call wearing makeup feminist. So this word feminism has really gotten conflated with a lot of other things. It’s changed meaning, and we see that happening with a lot of things over time. ## TOXIC SEXISM HURTS WOMEN **Jessica:** It is co-opted, and people redefine it and turn it into something else. The original definition of feminism speaks to women as a class, not the individual. The word freaks out people, radical because it sounds so extreme. But I like to remind people that the second wave movement was the women’s liberation movement in the 60s and 70s. The women of that movement were second wave. They were [very critical about exploitation](https://www.btr.org/types-of-exploitation/). Because they understood that when you have an oppressor class. Which is men in a male supremacy or a patriarchy buying and renting the bodies of the oppressed class. You can never have equality. It just doesn’t work. ![Toxic Husband](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Toxic-Husband.webp "Toxic Husband")So that’s where we’re coming from with this. I just want to add another word for radical feminist or second wave feminist is abolitionist feminist. In other words, I don’t think the exploitation industry, and I like to call it the exploitation industrial complex, because that’s what it is. It’s a multi billion dollar industry. It’s a big, big industry, and the exploitation industrial complex is just this large thing that we need to look at how it’s affecting women all over. So in other words, if I have a sister who’s getting prostituted or women who are being looked at as objects. How does that translate to me in the real world, in society and culture? How am I going to get looked at? Will I be impacted? Whether I’m in that industry or not? Yeah. ## LIBERATION FROM MISOGYNISTIC IDEAS **Anne:** That’s my goal here at [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/). It’s to liberate all women from [whatever is exploitative](https://www.btr.org/what-is-exploitative/) and misogynistic ideas and oppression of what they “should” act like. And what it means to be a woman is that we don’t have to accept coercion. We don’t have to accept any form of toxic objectification or anything that we feel uncomfortable about in our relationship. Anytime we stand up for our own rights, we stand up for everyone. If we could hold hands around the world and stop exploitation, it would stop. Because there wouldn’t be anywhere else for it to go. ![Is My Husband Toxic?](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/fvhCIwaXUz4/maxresdefault.jpg) **Jessica:** Right, I think women play a big role in this, like you’re talking about. But I believe that until we address the demand side of trafficking. Women will not be liberated, because we know by the data and experts in this field who study exploitation. That it’s the most, generally speaking, destitute, impoverished, traumatized, vulnerable people on the planet are the ones who end up in prostitution, being trafficked, into inappropriate media. You know, when people argue for choice, like, oh, that’s her choice. We have to step back and define what choice is. Is it her choice to prostitute herself, because she won’t feed her kids? This is a lie that this toxic industry perpetuates. Are those the choices we’re looking at? Are we talking about sheer survival? And why would we argue for that choice? Shouldn’t we give women more opportunities and look at what are the driving forces and what is bringing them there? And why are they saying, “We could just look at what brings people to the exploitation industry and what keeps people from getting out.” ## THE LIE BEHIND THE HARSH REALITIES OF THE OPPRESSIVE TRAFFICKING **Jessica:** It’s horrifying, like if people got educated about this topic and saw what brought women to this. Aside from being trafficked, right, and being coerced and drugged, and all that. What brings them there? And then why they can’t get out. The trauma, the feeling of they have no place to go. And the brokenness when you escape this abusive trade. The needs that you have to get back on your feet emotionally, physically, spiritually, all of it, that’s a lot of heavy lifting. It is a lie. And there are not many services out there. So, many women don’t make it out of the trade alive. They take their own lives, they die of drug addiction or overdose, they are killed, they die of complications from injury, all kinds of health and physical risks. Abolitionist feminists like myself, we don’t believe that this industry can be regulated. The same way an abolitionist in the 1800s in this country would never say, we want to keep slavery, but we want to regulate it. ![Ways to Tell if My Husband is Toxic](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Ways-To-Tell-If-My-Husband-Is-Toxic.webp "Ways to Tell if My Husband is Toxic")They wanted it gone. Because they knew that this was something built upon oppression. It was built upon racism. It was built upon patriarchy, and so from a second wave feminist point of view. Like myself and Gail and you, we see it the same way. You cannot regulate an industry built on exploitation, inequality and patriarchy. It is a lie that you can make this type of toxic industry safe for the women used in its making. We see it as dehumanizing and objectifying other human beings. And it’s a human rights issue. ## PUBLIC HEALTH CRISIS: TOXIC ONLINE MATERIAL We can talk to regulators, anything you would consider under the public health umbrella. Big Tobacco was a good example and model that we like to reference a lot, because there was a time, not too long ago, where there was a huge divide in the medical field about whether cigarettes were bad for you. And whether they caused lung cancer, and some doctors actually prescribed cigarettes to clients to help ease anxiety and relax them and whatnot. We still have clinicians in the mental health counseling and coaching fields today, who prescribe this type of toxic material for couples. And it’s harmful. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## THE LIE OF THE SEX POSITIVE MOVEMENT **Jessica:** We still aren’t there yet in terms of education. And so I think the public health approach is the best approach everybody can get on board with. Everybody can get on board with this, because it’s about looking at the facts. It’s about the data, science, and education. So that people can make informed decisions, not just take this away, and the person seeks it underground or whatever. This is now an informed decision about your health and your relationships, which equates to your health because we know how important relationships are to health. **Anne:** Exactly. So with that, let’s actually talk about the this movement. We had a guest on one of our episodes talking about being positive, which is so cool right now. And to be a progressive, like educated person. If you said I’m not then everyone would give you a weird look. Can you talk about how this toxic material is NOT positive, and why? **Jessica:** Yeah, there are so many reasons it’s not. I’ll start with first and foremost, it ruins people’s intimate lives. So that’s ironic, that the more a man uses this toxic material the less intimacy they have with a real life. You’ve heard of inappropriate media induced erectile dysfunction. This is a new phenomenon we’re seeing since the explosion of. Young men report erectile dysfunction that can’t be explained by any other variable. ## THE LIE THAT TOXIC ONLINE MATERIAL ISN’T HARMFUL **Jessica:** They’re otherwise healthy men who don’t have a physical reason for having erectile dysfunction. So it’s keeping people from actually connecting. So there’s that, number one. Number two, it’s a product that’s scripted, not creative, very formulaic and bottom line driven. It’s about hooking the consumer and taking away their agency. If you want to talk about choice, agency, and empowerment, it’s the absolute opposite. They’re hijacking our own ability to have authentic intimacy. So the template, instead of authoring my own intimacy, my own sexuality. Which is the most private, personal thing in my life. Now it’s co-opted by this multi-billion dollar industry, designed to change my template. It takes people’s power away, and you hear this from many recovering people. That once they stop using and stop using for awhile, they get their sense of agency back. And they start to have their relationship back, and they can co-create an intimate relationship with their partner. I came up with this quote because it’s one of the big arguments in the third wave movement. It’s none of your business what people are doing in the privacy of their bedrooms. And I like to respond by saying, “If it’s none of anybody’s business, what people are doing in their own bedrooms. Why have we made it the business of the this toxic industry to the tune of multi-billions of dollars?” ## THE LIE OF THE SEX POSITIVE MOVEMENT **Jessica:** Yes. So they have gone from saying, “It’s nobody’s business, what I do”, to “I’ve handed it over to a big business.” And now what happens in the bedroom is directly or indirectly run by this multi-billion dollar industry. That, frankly, has nobody’s best interest in mind. Not only is it addictive, but we know it’s horrifically, and this speaks to the feminist piece and the human rights piece. It’s horrifically misogynist, violent and brutal towards women. There’s tons of data on this. I don’t know how anybody could defend the content online today with any kind of positive or feminist lens. Or even defend it as a humanist. Somebody who believes in human decency. It’s a type of hate speech in my opinion. Why is this protected when they’re showing so much hate? Anne, think about this. If you were to show any other group of people of an oppressor class, like white people. And you had a multi-billion dollar media industry that shows white people abusing a subjugated group of people. Let’s say an Asian group or Black group or another oppressed or subjugated group of people. There would be public outcries. This would not be okay. But because it’s women, and because you’re sexualizing the violence and eroticizing the aggression, now it’s okay. But if you take it, all you see is violence, torture, and brutality. And why are we okay with that? ## IT’S VIOLENT HATE SPEECH **Jessica:** Especially because we live in a worldwide global culture, we have a pandemic of abuse and violence against women. It’s a lie that this toxic material is just fantasy, it’s not. We know the numbers with the Me Too movement, one in three. Every day, I read another article or more statistics about how violence against women is going up. Rape and campus rape is a pandemic. People can’t even keep up with it. These fantasies that men masturbating to are real life nightmares for real women. And something is really, really wrong with that. To have this group of people, women, suffering at the hands of men with violence. And then make movies about it for entertainment and men to masturbate to. The problem with the third wave liberal positive movement is they are not connecting the dots. It’s a lie that you can have it both ways. You cannot say we believe women should be free of violence, exploitation, and objectification when you support an industry based on all those things. **Anne:** I think they are just purposefully ignoring it. Because every time you try to address it with someone in that camp, they just talk in circles. There’s no resolution, and they don’t make any sense. You can say this isn’t logical, but they won’t be pinned down because they don’t want to give up this toxic material. They want to say these [abusers can be a good person](https://www.btr.org/can-an-abuser-be-a-good-person/) while engaging in this stuff. ## IF YOUR HUSBAND IS TOXIC, HE USES PEOPLE **Jessica:** No, that’s just it. There’s no real argument. There’s no data. It’s a thinly veiled debate. I don’t get far in those, because I’ll start asking real questions and I don’t get answers. I just get, “It’s my choice. If you don’t like it, don’t watch it.” You know, all the things that you could do to dismiss a public health crisis. Like, if you don’t like cigarettes, don’t smoke them. Then you start zooming out and going, wait, now it’s affecting everybody. It’s affecting children, our healthcare system, and our taxes. I mean, the list goes on and on. Yeah, well, and not to mention, that cigarette in this scenario is a person. Correct, and that is a beautiful segue to the differentiation between addiction and every other kind of addiction. Is that the human being, in many cases women, the substance being abused. And there is a big difference when you use a person as a substance, versus a drink, a drug, or a cigarette. So this is another reason why it’s even more serious and needs to be looked at as a human rights issue. I’ll also copy down another one of my favorite quotes. It’s by Jean Kilbourne. She did a series called Killing Us Softly, and it was about how women are portrayed in advertising. It’s brilliant, if you can ever get your hands on it. ## OBJECTIFICATION OF WOMEN IS TOXIC **Jessica:** Even if you say, “It’s my choice to strip, or it’s my choice to do this, or it’s okay for women to step out and objectify.” What we have to remember is that objectification is dangerous, and there are many statistics on this. There’s a great organization out of Australia called Collective Shout that researches how objectification hurts. Not only the person being objectified, but also the person doing the objectifying. And it leads to violence and harm. It changes the way we interact, the way we connect, and the way we view others and ourselves. It takes away our empathy, because if the person is now an object, you are really distanced from that person now. And you lose empathy. **Anne:** Here at [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/), we are the largest organization in the world for wives of toxic husbands. So many organizations are fighting exploitation or trafficking. We view ourselves as the in-home victims of these types of abusers. ## DEFINE YOUR BOUNDARIES TO PROTECT YOURSELF FROM HIS TOXIC BEHAVIOR **Anne:** And they should set that as a human rights boundary and also as a self respect boundary, right? Like, I will not allow myself to be abused like this in my own home. I want to talk about coercion for a bit. So it is our contention here at [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/) that if a man tries to talk a woman into accepting his toxic behavior. When she doesn’t want it, and he hides it from her, that it is a form of coercion. And he has not received her consent because he’s not giving her the full information. And while he’s lying to her about his toxic behavior, he’s withholding her ability to give consent. **Jessica:** I 100 percent agree with both of those. It’s common. The user tries to get around it by manipulation. The part about trying to talk your partner into accepting something that doesn’t feel good to them. And is coming between you is definitely coercion and abusive. Because it could lead you to feel like, if I don’t do this, he’s not happy. And he will leave me. My authentic self is not good enough. And also what’s happening is there’s a control issue. He’s controlling the narrative in the relationship. So, there’s no co-creative relationship. Between two people who come together and be playful and creative, and decide what feels good to both of them. ## THE IMPACT OF TOXIC SECRECY **Jessica:** What’s mutually pleasurable. And so this is somebody who’s saying, I want this for me, even though you’ve already stated you’re not comfortable with this. So trying to talk somebody into what their limitations and boundaries are is a type of abuse. And coercion, which those go hand in hand, and as far as hiding it goes. I mean, you guys know this more than anybody, because you deal with betrayal trauma, which has to do with secrecy. And lying and dishonesty will break a person and ruin relationships. Because if my husband lied to me about stopping off from work and getting a piece of cake because he’s on a diet. And he just fell off the wagon and got a piece of cake, and he didn’t tell me about it. Or he lied to me, yeah, lying’s not good. It makes you question people, it erodes trust, it’s not a good thing. He lied about something against my values, it’s something that I’ve set a boundary on. Something that has to do with masturbating to images of other women. He lied about seeking stimulus outside of our monogamous relationship. Assuming we’ve agreed on a monogamous committed relationship. Then, that is a different kind of betrayal. **Anne:** Well, it’s also abusive. This lack of consent, in saying, I know you want a monogamous relationship with no infidelity, so he lied to you. That is coercive in and of itself, and manipulative. ## IF HE LIED ABOUT ANYTHING, IT’S TOXIC TO YOU **Anne:** If he lied, you’re not giving consent. The information she needs to make the right decision and give her consent. **Jessica:** 100 percent agree that if he lied, that takes away her consent. And she is engaging in a relationship with somebody who she does not have all the information **Anne:** That she wants. She said flat out, “I don’t want this.” And so he lied and hides it from her. I think this is extremely serious, and people are not taking it seriously. And it is an abuse. People dismiss it or say, Oh, well, you know, he doesn’t need to tell her. And I’m thinking, no. You don’t realize this represents abuse. And it represents abuse in every case where he’s controlling the narrative. Like you said, and not willing to give her all the information she needs to give her consent. It’s a serious, serious abuse issue. **Jessica:** It is an abuse issue. And I a hundred percent agree. It is. It’s taking away that person’s right to consent, because they don’t have all the information to give informed, enthusiastic consent to their partner. And if women knew their partner was masturbating to even more toxic material, like child abuse material, it’s so traumatizing. ## IF I ASKED & HE LIED, IS THAT ABUSE? **Jessica:** If we knew that our partner’s template was that, that’s what turned them on. And that’s what they were masturbating to. We should have every right to know that, so that we could say I’m not compatible with that person. I don’t want to have intimacy with somebody who is turned on by that for many reasons. One is not compatible because this is now crossing over into core values. I don’t believe in violence against women, so I don’t want to be with somebody who’s masturbating to it. We have to get straight about when we meet somebody or when we’re with our partner about what our core values are in general. And also what our core values are around it and what is our compatibility. The bottom line is there’s no compatibility there. ## WHEN I ASKED IF HE WAS INTO TOXIC MATERIAL, HE LIED **Anne:** But the tricky part is emotional and psychological abuse and coercion. It’s the manipulation and lying that happens. **Jessica:** Yeah, that’s a good point. There are so many variables, but I think every woman wanting a monogamous, intimate healthy relationship will not want someone who uses toxic material. And to your point, you can do and say all the right things and still be betrayed. We can’t control everything anyone does, especially something this covert, secretive, and stealthy. But we can be clear with ourselves about our boundaries, about our values. And then we can communicate those to our partner or prospective partner in the best way possible. And so that’s to empower the listener on this podcast to say, “Okay, I’m going to focus on what I can do.” **Anne:** Yeah. And when you say they could be betrayed, I want listeners to know they could be betrayed during that conversation. They could be lied to and groomed during that conversation. For example, when my ex started dating, he sometimes dated my friend’s friends. So during that time, I kept hearing stuff. And I didn’t interject myself into the situation, but then I would get these texts. And I got a text from a friend. She said, “Hey, I’m skiing today, with a friend, and she’s dating your ex.” ## SOMEBODY COULD SAY ALL THE RIGHT THINGS & STILL BE LYING **Anne:** He told her “everything” and said, “Okay, if you never want to see me again, that’s fine.” She thought it was the most amazing conversation. She was like, wow, he’s so open. But when I heard what he told her, it’s not even close to everything. It’s not even close. Some of it’s not true, he lied. So the interesting thing is she thought she had this amazing, like heart to heart. Where he told her everything, and she knows about him, and she felt this is a good guy. But that’s not what it was. So that’s what I want to caution people. If their intent is to hide that they use toxic material, you’d never know. And that conversation is abusive in and of itself. **Jessica:** And this is such a good point, and why this conversation we’re having is so important. Like, for example, somebody could say all the right things and be lying. And so as a sisterhood, as women who are all affected by this issue, we need to share red flags. Like, what are the behaviors to watch for? What are the changes to watch for? Because unfortunately, we have to play detective. And it’s not to say that we need to project onto our partners or prospective partners, or blaming, shaming and accusing them. However, this is the reality we live in. ## RED FLAGS & TOXIC BEHAVIORAL CHANGES **Jessica:** For example, I was on a relationship Facebook group the other day, and this one woman said, my, I think it was husband or boyfriend, of long term stopped talking to me. Now when they have intimacy, he won’t kiss her. And she can’t figure out why, and it’s not a bad breath issue, and all this stuff. I mean, she’s like racking her brain trying to figure out why she’s no longer being kissed. And I have the inside scoop on that, because this is what I do for a living. So I brought that up and she said, “You know what did cross my mind? And I asked him, and he denied it.” Okay. So again, you have that denial, but at some point she’s going to need a reason why he’s not kissing her. **Anne:** I actually disagree. There’s no point at which she needs an answer. If that is not how she wants the relationship to be, she just needs to set a boundary. Because there’s no way to force an answer out of him. ## THE WORDS DON’T MATTER, WATCH WHAT HE DOES **Anne:** If he refuses to tell her and blames it on a psychological issue. She might think, “Oh, okay, it’s due to this psychological issue.” **Jessica:** She would never know. I totally see your point. And the bottom line is, to your point, to take it even further. If that behavior doesn’t change, then that’s the real issue. **Anne:** She doesn’t need to say anything. She can just think in her mind and make a decision. If he’s not going to kiss me, I’m not gonna have intimacy with him. **Jessica:** Yeah, it doesn’t feel good to me. It doesn’t feel safe, yeah. **Anne:** We try to encourage people at [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/) not to look for reasons. Because you will never find them, or if you find it, it might be a fake reason. Focus on the behavior that makes you feel unsafe, the non kissing, and set a boundary around that. And that way you’re always on the right track. **Jessica:** That’s a good point. I agree. If you don’t feel safe in a relationship, emotionally, physically and spiritually, You can’t have intimacy. Those two things cannot coexist. You cannot feel unsafe and also be close to somebody, and have bonding, intimacy, trust and all that. So there’s been this idea that at all costs, you make the relationship work. You are in a relationship, and you stick it out. Now there’s new data that says, your health, psychological health, emotional health, physical health, all that is better being a single person or being alone, and not being constantly in that state of nervous system arousal. Watching your back, wondering, questioning, because that wreaks havoc on the nervous system. ## BOUNDARIES ARE ACTIONS, NOT STATEMENTS **Anne:** So I want the listeners to know that too. I think there are many people out there, especially women, thinking I have to make this work or stay in this because the alternative is worse. And the alternative is sometimes way, way better. I always say don’t worry whether you want to be in the relationship, if you set boundaries around the behavior. This is why I wrote [The Living Free Workshop.](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/ "The Living Free Workshop.") It teaches you how to set small boundaries and watch from a safe distance. So, for example, if you don’t want to kiss and if I don’t feel safe, I’m not having it with you. The relationship will take care of itself. He will be like, oh, well, I don’t want to date you anymore. So you don’t have to be like, well, if he doesn’t start using a spoon properly, then I will break up with him, right? You could say, “Well, if he’s not going to use a spoon properly, I don’t even have to say anything to him. But I’m going to take my food and actually go in the other room.” ## WHEN HE LIED TO GET WHAT HE WANTED **Anne:** The cool thing is, you don’t even have to tell him. You don’t have to say, “If you put your elbow in my face, I’m going to leave.” A boundary isn’t something you say. It’s the action you take. When you talk, when you say, “Hey, I don’t like it when you put your elbow in my face.” That’s just a statement. It’s not a boundary. You don’t have to only make boundaries around deal breakers. **Jessica:** Absolutely. **Anne:** You can make boundaries around any type of behavior that you’re like, meh, this is not working for me. **Jessica:** Exactly. **Anne:** That’s my thought about it, but I don’t know how you feel. ## YOUR PARTNER’S JOB: TO CREATE SAFETY **Jessica:** You’re spot on, it’s good to get to know the person, take it slow. But when you start to feel like it’s going somewhere romantically, I do think it’s good to start talking about what are your views on this kind of thing? **Anne:** A note here really quick. I just want to say Jessica is agnostic, spiritual, but I’m going to put words in your mouth here. You are not of the type that’s like no contact before marriage. So if you’re dating someone and you feel like, okay, this is going somewhere. I think I’m ready to have intimacy with this person. Marriage is not a boundary for you. Is that accurate? **Jessica:** That’s accurate. **Anne:** Your perspective will be different than mine, because mine’s going to be, what are the things I need to know before I have a relationship with this person? **Jessica:** Right, right, absolutely. This is why there is no formula, right? **Anne:** Exactly. So when I decide, okay, do I not only want to have intimacy with this person, which would be maybe a decision about a few things? I’m thinking, do I want to marry them and ergo have intimacy with them? **Jessica:** Right? Are they marriage material? Yeah, that’s what you’re thinking. There’s obviously a wide spectrum, and for me, it’s love, safety, and respect. I’m not loose or, or, uh, boundary-less or even, what’s the word? Dare I say liberal? I’m not liberal when it comes to that. ## CAN WOMEN FIGURE OUT IF HE IS LYING EARLY ON? **Jessica:** I think it has meaning, and I think it’s bonding, and I think people need to be more responsible. It’s a big deal. And there’s data that supports that, what it does in our brain and how we feel bonded through that. And betrayed when that connection is broken. So whether you’re waiting for marriage or waiting to get to know the person and have these other values addressed, it’s important, I think, just to bring it up in a way that’s about you. And of course, I’m going to say it right away, and in a way that is helpful for me, because then if the person sticks around, great. If they don’t, well, that helps me weed them out. Whether it’s not just romantic partners, but friends, colleagues, I mean, it goes on and on. **Anne:** The interesting thing about dating and marriage is that even though he’s toxic, you might not know until years later. ## WHEN SHOULD A WOMEN ASK HER BOYFRIEND ABOUT TOXIC MATERIAL? **Anne:** It’s not like smoking. It’s not like meth, I mean, people can hide their drug addiction. But after a while, you’d be like, this person doesn’t have any teeth, you know? You can see it. Or maybe with alcoholism, you can smell it on them or something. But if he’s using toxic material, there’s no tell. **Jessica:** It’s true, you may never know, and this is why you have to pay attention to behavior and what is or isn’t working for you. So if you’re in a relationship, let’s say you’re dating somebody and talk about, what do you want out of a relationship? And they say, I want monogamy. And you say, okay, good. We’re on the same page there. We both want monogamy. These are things that obviously need to be discussed, right? So we’re both in it with one person, blah, blah, blah. And then you can even take that conversation further by saying, let’s define monogamy in this digital age we live in. Well, for me, monogamy means my partner is not seeking stimulus outside the relationship with me. And that’s a broad statement that encompasses a lot. So not seeking stimulus outside the relationship. That means not going to strip clubs. That means, you know, not even going to somebody’s Instagram page and looking at their bikini pictures seeking stimulus. ## WE CAN’T CONTROL OTHERS’ TOXIC BEHAVIOR, BUT WE CAN SET BOUNDARIES AND HONOR OUR VALUES **Jessica:** Now it’s not to say, I mean, obviously we live in a misogynistic, objectified world. Men will see images of women everywhere. That’s uncomfortable for most women, but it’s the reality. I mean, that’s like the polluted air we breathe, right? You can’t avoid it. It’s just pollution. What you want, though, is the person’s commitment to not seeking it out, and also to paying attention to you. And the relationship he has with you. Really focusing that energy on you, on your monogamous relationship, because that’s what defines monogamy, is that you’re having intimacy with one person. And it might not be a lifetime of a monogamy, but at that time it’s that person. You know, five years from now, you might divorce, and then it becomes a different person. But it’s still monogamy, because it’s one person. So I would say as a guideline to define the kind of relationship you want, and then define what monogamy means for you. When you say to somebody point blank, objectifying women has the same effect on me as a man cheating on me. That’s a solid, clear statement. So then if he decides to go home that night and use toxic material, he is willingly doing the thing you said is cheating. **Anne:** And I think going even further than that, saying this is what I see as monogamy, this is how I define it. And if I ask him, and he lies about it, hides it from me, or manipulates me to make me think that’s not happening. That is coercion. That is abuse. ## MAKE YOUR HEALTH & YOUR SAFETY THE PRIORITY **Anne:** You would be doing that. And I do not want to be abused. When I was young, my mom told me about rape, and she said, “If anyone is raping you, I want you to look them in the eye. And I want you to strongly and forcefully say this is rape and I will prosecute.” She had me repeat that several times, and we role played a little bit, and that’s what she wanted me to say. And I want women to say that too. This is what coercion is, and I will be very hurt and it will be abuse. So if I find out, that’s what you would have done to me. **Jessica:** Calling it like it is is very important. Women find themselves in situations, as you know, there’s a lot of gaslighting and manipulation going on, so we might sense that. Like we know something’s wrong, the hair on the back of our neck stands up. Just something’s off. And if you don’t have proof that person might just be like, that’s not happening. This is all in your head. What are you gauging this on? **Anne:** I want to ask you something. ## CULTURAL & RELIGIOUS PERSPECTIVES ON TOXIC MATERIAL **Anne:** So in my culture, where I live no one has ever set me up with, nor is anyone who is agnostic asking me out. I would go, but I’m just saying nobody is. So all the people I am in contact with are religious. From my point of view, if I talk to them, they’re always going to say, of course not. Always. I’m never going to get the response, like, oh, I do use that stuff. I’m never going to get that response. I might get a, I used it in the past, but now I know it’s bad and I don’t anymore. But I’m like, I don’t believe any of you guys. For you, where you’re dating people who may not be religious. When you bring this up, how do they react? Does it go well? Does it go weird? Can you talk about some personal examples you have? **Jessica:** Most of the people I have dated have been not religious. 99. 9 % of the time when I talk about my stance on the industry in general. Most non-religious people are taken aback. They want to know why. “What is the problem? What’s the deal? Isn’t it about choice and personal empowerment?” And if a woman decides, they usually try to flip the script to this whole choice argument. “If you’re really a feminist or care about women, you’re going to let them do what they want. ## PHILOSOPHICAL DEBATES ABOUT WHAT CAUSES MEN TO BE TOXIC **Anne:** So are they arguing with you on that point? **Jessica:** So in my dating history, the person says he’s on board with respecting the boundary. So that’s first and foremost, like, yeah, okay. I can do that with. I’m on board with respecting that boundary. Okay, great. However, there is a lot historically, a lot of arguing about the topic. So my boundary in the relationship is set. Cause I’m really black and white about it. It’s a deal breaker for me. And so when I have that conversation about, “Hey, we’re going further in the relationship. I want to be committed. Let’s be monogamous. What are your deal breakers? What are your non negotiable?” And we have that conversation, and he shares with me, and I share with him what those are. And they could be the same or different depending. There’s usually some sort of philosophical debate or argument. And you’re that black and white about that issue. You must be religious, you must be conservative. There’s like all this stuff tied to it. And then there’s this whole thing about prudishness and repression, and there’s this idea from many non-religious people that if you take a firm stance about this topic, you must be coming from a pious or religious perspective. ## DEFINE YOUR RELATIONSHIP BOUNDARIES **Anne:** So you have that philosophical argument, but how does it go in the actual relationship? Does it end up falling apart because he doesn’t believe you, or because he’s lied, or what happens next? **Jessica:** There is a lot of explanation and a lot of what I would call psycho-education. I’ve had to psycho-educate every man I’ve ever been close to or been with romantically, about people. Also about objectification of women and what it does to relationships. Also what it does to a person’s brain. And honestly, I don’t mind having the conversation if the tone of the conversation is inquiry, listening, learning, and wanting to be a better person. But if it’s a debate, I usually shut that down. I’ll say my piece, and then I’ll be like, I’m not interested in debating this with you. I happen to have a lot of expertise in this area. I have the data. **Anne:** With the debate guys, do you end up having a relationship with them? **Jessica:** I have ended up having a relationship with, after the debates have gone away. **Anne:** So after you’ve said, hey, I’m not debating with you anymore. **Jessica:** Not that quick, but it’s almost like coming from different worldviews. So, I’m coming at it with this firm, I have all this information. **Anne:** I understand. What I’m looking for is, what’s the end result? ## FIND CLARITY THROUGH BOUNDARIES **Jessica:** The end result is that I end up with somebody who’s on board with learning about it. I hate to use this word, but converting. Basically, if somebody listens to what I have to say, with an open mind and an open heart, and trust me. They’re not gonna think it’s okay anymore. And if they did, it wouldn’t work out. Like, they wouldn’t want to be with me, and I wouldn’t want to be with them. So, once that has been put out there, and I try to do it in a way that’s educational. Because this is the culture we live in, most men have absolutely no idea. **Anne:** So you have been dating the same person for years and he has been converted? **Jessica:** Yes, absolutely. He was coming at it from more of this. “Well, shouldn’t people be free to do what they want to do and what feels good to them?” He was also coming at it from an open-minded place. If anybody’s gonna fall for me and my belief system, I’m very counterculture on this topic. As you know. I know you are too for somebody to stick around, and someone with this counterculture perspective says a lot about them as a person anyway. ## IF I ASK ABOUT TOXIC BEHAVIOR & HE LIES – IT’S ABUSIVE **Jessica:** He obviously had to get on board for it to work. **Anne:** That’s why I think the whole religious situation is irking me. I’m so irked because I am very religious. At this point. I’m like, I don’t care if the person I’m dating is religious or not. I am, and the reason I feel like that, currently. So I mean, maybe when it comes down to it, because I don’t drink, for example. I don’t watch rated R movies. So maybe when it came down to it, just the way my lifestyle is, it wouldn’t work, you know? I don’t know. But, I would much rather have somebody like that. Than someone who purports to be like, no, of course I don’t like it, because everyone in our culture doesn’t like it, and everyone in our culture is supposed to be monogamous. That is like the worst. And that is happening throughout the religious culture, like exponential levels, the lying and the manipulation and stuff. It is so bad. And it is annoying. Not just bad and annoying. It’s coercion. It is abuse. **Jessica:** It is abuse. It’s so subverted and underground, like at least if you’re talking to somebody who’s non religious or interested in exploring the topic to get to that place, but if you say and believe it’s wrong and you’re doing it anyway. **Anne:** Where do you go from there? **Jessica:** Where do you get? I believe slavery is wrong, but I’m gonna have a slave. Like where do you go from there? Yeah. **Anne:** Exactly. ## THE IMPACT OF TOXIC MATERIAL ON TEMPLATES **Anne:** Let’s talk about the manipulate your template issue. Because I was talking with a friend yesterday, and she said, “You know what you don’t explicitly ever say on the podcast?” And I was like, “what?” She said, “You don’t explicitly say that many abuses women suffer in their homes, like the names being called or the way they’re being treated, are actually what the men are viewing with this type of toxic material. She doesn’t know that the way he’s treating her comes from what he watched. Because she’s not watching it, she doesn’t know that these behaviors may have come from there. I think it’s important to realize that, and this is exactly what you said, that what you are watching is altering your template. It’s altering what you are attracted to. And we’ve got that happening a lot, where men are no longer attracted to their extremely attractive wives or girlfriends. It’s not hard to see what his [lack of intimacy does to a woman](https://www.btr.org/lack-of-intimacy-in-marriage/ "lack of intimacy does to a woman"). Because their template is being edited or altered by unrealistic depictions of women. **Jessica:** It’s being altered by unrealistic depictions as well as self stimulation. The arousal and the orgasm that happens when they’re viewing this takes it further. ## CULTURAL CONDITIONING & INTIMACY SCENARIOS **Jessica:**I mean, we’re all conditioned. I have cultural conditioning around what I think is attractive and unattractive for myself as a woman. Society conditioned me to be hairless, wax my legs, and all that. So we all experience cultural conditioning around these things. We’re always comparing things to what we see in the media and everything else. The idea, obviously, is to go beyond the superficial when you meet somebody. And actually have true intimacy, which is beyond hairy legs or non hairy legs, and that’s the work all couples need to do. It is finding intimacy that goes beyond what the media has been feeding us. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t be masturbating to these images, and now we’re not just talking about unrealistic images. We’re talking about violent degrading, you know hateful types of scenarios. And images and this chemical concoction that happens in the brain, and what that does neurologically to the brain. There’s no argument for a net benefit for this type of toxic material. Just for the record, I oppose self stimulation in a relationship with two willing partners who want to have it. If one person goes off in private or in secret to masturbate, that raises a big question mark. I’d rather have my partner say, “I’m not okay with that, and this isn’t going to work,” than agree to it and then resent me for it. ## HE LIED ABOUT SOMETHING I CARED DEEPLY ABOUT **Anne:** And I think that is actually the biggest problem right now. Because like with me, I said, “This is what I want. I want this type of monogamous relationship. Self stimulation is not okay with me like ever. That’s my thing. Never, it’s never okay. These are my boundaries.” And he said, “Absolutely, absolutely”. So when he lied and said he didn’t do any of it. So that is the like scariest part of it. And that’s where abuse, manipulation, lying and coercion comes in. Because that was so abusive. But let’s pretend like we marry, and a month in he’s like, you know what? I thought I didn’t want to, but I actually do, and I’ve been doing it, so you said that was a boundary. And I would have been like, oh, that stinks. But the thing was, then he acted like he wanted to change. ## CRITICAL ANALYSIS OF VALUES **Anne:** Part of the problem is, I don’t think, at least in the religious community, men know that they’re supposed to act a certain way, and so they act like that. But I don’t think they’ve really come to grips with I don’t act according to my values. I’m not doing the things that I’m supposed to do. And I need to be honest about that. They just kind of like go with the flow and say what they’re supposed to say. And that’s what’s irking me. **Jessica:** I think you bring up a really good point about what I would call critical analysis. It’s important for people to develop these values through critical analysis, rather than simply accepting them as how they’re supposed to be. Even non-religious people obviously hold a sense of morality, ethics, and an understanding of right and wrong. I, as a non-religious person, developed this through a lot of critical analysis. You have every right to feel annoyed and upset when you see this trend in this population. **Anne:** Jessica is amazing. I appreciate her perspective, because at [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/), we are interfaith, but also inter-paradigm. So people who have no faith or people of whatever paradigm are welcome here. And so I always love having a different perspective. So thank you. Jessica, thank you so much for coming on today’s episode. **Jessica:** Thank you so much, Anne. It’s nice to have the support and having these difficult conversations. Thanks for having me. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma --- ### [Betrayal Trauma In Relationships: What No One Explains](https://www.btr.org/betrayal-trauma-in-relationships/) **Published:** March 11, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Have you been dismissed & minimized by those who should have helped you? Here's the support you've needed. **Content:** A lot of women are looking for answers about how to heal betrayal trauma in relationships on Reddit or other forums. Here’s what those forums get wrong: ### 1. BETRAYAL TRAUMA ISN’T “JUST” ABOUT THE CHEATING – IT’S ABOUT ALL THE ABUSE Betrayal [trauma victims on reddit often share their stories](/betrayal-trauma-in-marriage/) about how their husband cheating on them and they can’t get the thoughts out of their heads. BUT they’re posts make it clear that they’re still unaware of all the other abuse they experienced. For true healing, betrayal trauma victims progress more quickly when they’re aware of the truth. Understanding the emotional, psychological, sexual, financial, and spiritual abuse will help things make more sense. When it comes to betrayal trauma, knowing the truth is the first step to true healing. ### 2. THERE ARE THINGS THAT MAKE BETRAYAL TRAUMA WORSE Therapists may accidentally blame you by trying to help you figure out what you did to “get yourself into this mess.” But you didn’t do anything to deserve it, and it didn’t happen because you needed to learn something. Women betrayed by an intimate partner don’t need therapy because nothing is wrong with them. ### 3. MANY SO-CALLED “RELATIONSHIP RECOVERY” RESOURCES DON’T HELP WOMEN HEAL Reddit or other forums contain many links to resources for couples to recovery from infidelity. However, they fail to mention two facts: 1\) Infidelity is an abuse issue, not a relationship issue. 2\) Couple therapy is never indicated when abuse is present. For this reason, any couple therapist who doesn’t understand that [infidelity is abuse](/is-infidelity-abuse/) won’t be is not only unhelpful, but also unethical These unethical therapists often pose as victims and link back to their practices to promote their business. Women in our community have often been to multiple therapists spending thousands of dollars on therapy, and the therapist doesn’t help them identify the abuse. If you need actual support from women who understand, attend a live [online support group for betrayal trauma](/group/ "Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions") TODAY. ![What is Betrayal Trauma in Marriage](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-Is-Betrayal-Trauma-In-Marriages.webp "What is Betrayal Trauma in Marriage")## THE RIGHT SUPPORT TO HELP YOU IDENTIFY BETRAYAL TRAUMA IN A RELATIONSHIP If you discover your husband betrayed you, knowing what to is difficult. Sometimes clergy, therapists, even the legal system dismiss women’s trauma after betrayal. Betrayal Trauma Recovery empowers women when they become educated about what to do. One of the key things to do if you’ve been betrayed is determining if there has also been emotional abuse. To discover if his betrayal includes emotional abuse, take our [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ## TRANSCRIPT: BETRAYAL TRAUMA IN RELATIONSHIPS **Anne:** We have a very special episode today. Women who’ve experienced betrayal trauma in relationships share what helped them heal—I asked them to record their thoughts and send them to me, and here are those recordings. ## SHE LEARNED HOW TO CREATE BOUNDARIES DUE TO THE BETRAYAL TRAUMA IN HER RELATIONSHIP **Betrayal Trauma Victim #1:** We tried many counselors, including CSATS, and have been doing that quite some time. Being on BTR for just a few weeks has made all the difference, and I can see the behaviors now much more clearly, the dysfunction. Being on every day and getting the validation from the coaches and other women has been tremendously helpful to me. Life changing. ![What is the Definition of Betrayal Trauma in Relationships](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-Is-the-Definition-of-Betrayal-Trauma.webp "What is the Definition of Betrayal Trauma in Relationships")## SHE RECEIVED LIFE-CHANGING SUPPORT **Betrayal Trauma Victim #2:** I’m grateful for Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I gained clear thinking about what I saw and what was happening. I listened to the podcast, then coaches talked with me one-on-one. They helped me name what I faced—grooming, gaslighting, and more—and gave me simple strategies to handle it. Before BTR, I didn’t even have words for it. It’s [the best support for betrayal trauma.](https://www.btr.org/best-support-for-betrayal-trauma/) The biggest shift came when I took what I learned and used it in real situations. One of those was with my husband’s counselor. He pushed for marriage counseling, like many do. But BTR taught me something important: both people need a basic level of health before that can work. So I said it clearly. My husband’s behavior—sex outside our marriage, pornography, all of it—was not a marriage problem. They cause marriage problems, but they are his personal problems until he addresses them. Marriage counseling will not be successful, and I will not participate. But it was BTR that empowered me to understand, one, I have a voice, and two, that was a very logical way to handle the situation. The counselor looked surprised, but he understood my point. He chose a different course with my husband, and that helped him more. So I’m very grateful for BTR and the coaches, and thankful for the daily presence of having somewhere to go where I felt supported and peaceful. ## SHE LEARNED THAT SHE’S NOT CRAZY **Betrayal Trauma Victim #3:** BTR Group Sessions have amazing coaches who have also walked this path. They can give appropriate advice, encouragement, and help answer questions and guide you along the path of recovery. BTR gave me the words and the terminology to put to how I was feeling. And knowing the right words to describe my feelings helped calm my soul and helped me to not feel so crazy. There have been several moments when I was full of panic, anxiety, and fear because of the situations at home with my husband, and I was able to get on [Betrayal Trauma Support Group](https://www.btr.org/betrayal-trauma-support-group/ "Betrayal Trauma Support Group") within a couple of hours and talk through it, get the comfort and validation that I needed and advice if it was needed. BTR Group has been a lifesaver for me on many occasions. It’s a safe place where I can cry and let it all out and share my fears, no matter how silly they may seem to others. The coaches and other women in the group understand and get it. It’s a judgment free zone where I can be me and fully accepted for who I am, for all my faults and failures and my accomplishments. ## BTR GAVE HER STRENGTH WHEN SHE NEEDED IT BTR helped me to set and hold appropriate boundaries for my safety, which helped me to feel confident and empowered. The coaches and other women in the group give me validation to know I am not crazy, and that others have been through the same thing. I love being in the group and hearing other women’s stories and questions. And often they have the same questions I have, and sometimes questions I had, but I didn’t know that I had, or how to ask. And so many times the advice given to other women was just what I needed to hear. I’ve been doing BTR groups since the beginning, and it’s great to build that relationship with the coaches, and to have them tell me how much improvement and growth they have seen in me. BTR group is the friend I never had and needed so desperately. I have felt so alone for so many years. BTR came into my life when I needed them most, and to have the coaches with me through this journey of healing. I honestly can say I don’t know where I’d be without the BTR Group Sessions. I credit so much of my healing and strength to the coaches and other women in the group. BTR Group has helped me become a better person, healthier person, stronger, more confident, and empowered. ## THE HORRIFIC EXPERIENCE OF BETRAYAL TRAUMA IN MARRIAGE **Betrayal Trauma Victim #4:** I was going through a really ugly part of the divorce. I was dealing with a lot of very covert abuse, very mean and horrible to me and my younger daughter, but nice to everyone else. A family in our church took my 16 year old daughter and I into their home. She was going through some issues also. And she said, “You’ve got to attend BTR Group Sessions.” And, I started attending BTR Group Sessions and listening to BTR Podcasts, and was surprised at the connection with the pornography. It has the [best betrayal trauma resources.](https://www.btr.org/best-betrayal-trauma-resources/ "best betrayal trauma resources.") I actually went to counseling. I’d been going to counseling for years, with my marital problems. And nobody had ever made that connection before. https://www.btr.org/best-betrayal-trauma-resources And when I brought it up to my therapist at Kaiser, she said, “Oh, that’s interesting. I’d never made that connection before.” And I just kept listening to BTR Podcasts and it was so intriguing. I hadn’t even thought about the connection of with coercive control. That hit me really hard. I think it gave me more validation because even though I really can’t confront him about that, we were on zero communication. It gave me a lot of validation to know that I’m not crazy, that no matter how this looks to everyone else, I’m suffering horribly and I’m not crazy. I appreciate the BTR podcast and the Group Sessions. It’s been invaluable to me, and I just thank you for it. ![What is Betrayal Trauma in Marriage Relationship](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-Is-Betrayal-Trauma-In-Marriage-Relationship.webp "What is Betrayal Trauma in Marriage Relationship")## I LEARNED SELF WORTH & SELF CARE **Betrayal Trauma Recovery Victim #5:** BTR was recommended to me by my counselor. She recommended that I get into group. She said it was important that I get into group while still seeing her. The great thing about BTR group sessions is how they’ve helped me. So you have all different coaches who bring with them all different areas expertise. I have found that when I get on these groups, I get all this coaching and support, and hearing other from other women’s experiences. It has helped me know that I’m not alone, because it is so easy to feel so alone in all this. One of the things that’s important is having safe people. If you have people around you that don’t necessarily understand your experience, you don’t feel safe. And BTR creates that safe environment. So the women in these groups are safe. You never feel judged. You’re not going to have people tell you how you should think or do. It’s completely safe. And while each woman’s experience is unique, we all share commonalities. And having that support helped me through the most traumatic relational experience in my life. ![Betrayal Trauma in Relationships for Women](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Betrayal-Trauma-For-Women.webp "Betrayal Trauma in Relationships for Women")## SHE EXPERIENCED BETRAYAL TRAUMA IN HER RELATIONSHIP **Betrayal Trauma Recovery Victim #6:** I truly believe [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session](https://www.btr.org/group/)s saved my life. I’ve made lifetime friends, the only ones who understand my feelings, who have gone through the same things. Each coach has their own special traits, and seeing the different views of the same subject or seeing things in different ways or suggestions helps make you feel safe. ![Can Betrayal in Relationships Be Traumatic](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Can-Betrayal-In-Relationships-Be-Traumatic.webp "Can Betrayal in Relationships Be Traumatic")## SHE FOUND CLARITY AFTER YEARS OF MARRIAGE TRAUMA **Betrayal Trauma Recovery Victim #7:** My husband was in recovery and having. All of these meetings each week and having all the help he needs and counseling. And I felt like I was being left out in the dark. I was at the end of my rope. So I started searching for something to help me. I found BTR. I decided that’s what would be best for me. So I started attending the group. I have found that having this group has been the best thing that ever happened to me. It has taught me what self care means. It’s taught me a lot of things about gaslighting and DARVO and things I’d never heard of before. They’ve helped me through a lot of really hard situations. The [group has been so supportive](https://www.btr.org/group/). The women are amazing. Everyone has their own story to tell, but each person gets validation and support that they need and feedback from the coaches as well as each other. It’s been great to know that I’m not alone in this, that there’s other women who have struggled the same as I have, and that I can be there to support them, and they can be there to support me. ## SHE FINALLY HAD A NAME FOR HER EXPERIENCE This group, I lean on it a lot. When I’m going through hard times, and I don’t understand everything happening with my addict, they help clarify situations for me, and give me options. They also give me a place to share, and I feel safe, and I’m not being judged. I just want to let others know how wonderful the BTR group has been for me, and I would recommend it for anyone who’s going through [betrayal trauma](https://www.btr.org/after-infidelity-free-email-course/), so they can learn and grow. I feel like I’ve learned and grown from the first time I attended to this day. I’ve learned self worth. I’ve learned what self care is, things that I didn’t even understand when I started attending Group Sessions. So I just want to thank all the coaches, everyone. ![What is Betrayal Trauma in a Marriage](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-Is-Betrayal-Trauma-In-A-Marriage.webp "What is Betrayal Trauma in a Marriage")## RECEIVED VALIDATION & ENCOURAGEMENT **Betrayal Trauma Victim #8:** I really appreciate how you validated everybody, first by listening, and then by encouraging them in their own insights and giving them, you know, advice. permission to do and be whatever they needed to at that moment. I have not experienced that with counseling, though I’ve been through a lot. Yeah, it’s been a trial. And so I recognize the uniqueness of it and it’s just amazing. To learn more, please check out our [Group Schedule](https://www.btr.org/group/ "Group Schedule") as well as [The Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/husband-lies-about-small-things/ "The Living Free Workshop"). **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [How To Deal With An Addict Husband - Evangeline's Story](https://www.btr.org/how-to-deal-with-an-addict-husband/) **Published:** March 18, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** If you're struggling to deal with your husband's addiction, here's what you need to know. **Content:** If you’re struggling to deal with an addict husband, we get it. We’re here for you. Our [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions ](https://www.btr.org/group/)are for women who have done everything they can to fix their marriage, but their addict husband is still causing trouble. To see if your husband’s addiction causes him to be emotionally abusive, take our [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). And listen (above) to Evangeline’s story to see if you relate, or read the transcript below. You’re not alone. ![How to Deal with My Addict Husband](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Deal-with-My-Addict-Husband.webp "How to Deal with My Addict Husband")## TRANSCRIPT: HOW TO DEAL WITH AN ADDICT HUSBAND **Anne:** A member of our [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community](https://www.btr.org/) is on today’s episode. We’re calling her Evangeline. Welcome, Evangeline. **Evangeline:** Thank you for talking with me, Anne. I’m so grateful for the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community. **Anne:** Let’s start at the beginning. Can you talk about how you felt about your husband at first? **Evangeline:** Ours was like a real romance. I thought I married the man of my dreams, that I earned and deserved this as a good Christian girl and woman. I was in love, head over heels in love. He checked all the boxes. He had faith, honored and respected me, and did many thoughtful gestures. ![How to Deal with Husband Addiction](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Deal-with-Husband-Addiction.webp "How to Deal with Husband Addiction")**Anne:** Back then, did you notice anything a bit off, and how did you define that? **Evangeline:** There were moments. I suspected he may be an addict early on and thought he acted out in his “addiction” in isolated moments. Like, just a few times a year. He’d apologize and say it wouldn’t happen again. I never told anyone because it was infrequent. I just thought he’s growing up, he’s figuring it out. As long as it doesn’t get any worse, I’m going to be okay. We’re going to be okay. ## HOW TO DEAL WITH AN ADDICT HUSBAND WHEN HE LIES **Evangeline:** He introduced pornography into our marriage. I said, no, I didn’t like that. I became uncomfortable. He’s telling me he’s watching pornography to learn how to be a better husband. How to maybe be a better lover or to be more educated. **Anne:** A flat out lie. [He’s constantly on his phone](https://www.btr.org/why-is-my-husband-constantly-on-his-phone/), watching it. **Evangeline:** Totally. It didn’t help him be a “better” anything. I found infidelity 15 to 20 years into my marriage. The reality was, I can’t tell you how many incidences. I lived in fear. There is no way to deal with this when your husband says he’s an addict. ![My Husband Relapsed](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/My-Husband-Relapsed.webp "My Husband Relapsed")## THE REALITY OF MY HUSBAND’S ADDICTION **Evangeline:** And really why would I know how to deal with an [addicted husband](https://www.btr.org/is-my-husband-addicted/)? My parents raised me sheltered and uninformed. And he seemed to love and adore me. I felt so blessed at the time. This was a godsend, an answer to prayer. **Anne:** It makes total sense. That is exactly what you would think, especially under the circumstances. You think he’s a man of God, because that’s what he has told you. ![Why is My Husband So Addicted](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Why-Is-My-Husband-So-Addicted.webp "Why is My Husband So Addicted")**Evangeline:** The first 10 years of our marriage were a blur. Our two youngest out of three kids had severe medical issues. Those years were just survival. I took women’s Bible study and women’s leadership. ## THE SACRIFICES YOU MAKE WHEN YOUR HUSBAND IS AN ADDICT I did bookkeeping for multiple churches and nonprofits. He also played a part in my business. He did taxes for some of the customers I had. My business was thriving. About 13 or so years into our marriage, we decided to move across the country. He wanted us to go down to one income, one job. So I sold my business to another accountant in our city. And I became a full time stay at home mom for the next 16 years. ![Help for My Addicted Husband](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Help-For-My-Addicted-Husband.webp "Help for My Addicted Husband")I didn’t know what would happen when I gave up my financial security and ability to take care of myself. I needed safety, because my husband was an addict, and that was an unsafe situation. The Christian evangelical community promoted and encouraged us to be stay-at-home moms. I didn’t realize that as a woman, I was putting myself at risk for the situation I’m now currently in. ## HE WANTED POWER & CONTROL **Evangeline:** I can see it now that he wanted more power and control. If he’s an addict, you can start seeing the patterns. Like, when I started going back to school, he was not supportive. He would call me in the middle of my day, interrupt me when he’d never done that before. This behavior felt like more that just being an “addict husband.” I would keep my study time to only the hours my kids were at school. I could only study when I had no other duties. ## HE DIDN’T WANT ME TO IMPROVE MYSELF **Evangeline:** It was obvious he didn’t want me to improve myself, or show interest in any of my hobbies. And that was shocking. His addiction meant he only wanted me the version of myself he married at 22. He didn’t allow me to grow and change. I wasn’t allowed to be an educated and degreed adult. I had to be the high school graduate. He simply wanted my attention only on him. ![How to Pray for Addicted Husband](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Pray-For-Addicted-Husband.webp "How to Pray for Addicted Husband")**Anne:** One part of[ The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) teaches that we all have special talents and interests. But sometimes, when a husband struggles with addiction, he makes us think our life should only be about him. This workshop helps us realize that we were created to live our own life. ## MY ADDICT HUSBAND GOT IN THE WAY OF MY CAREER **Evangeline:** Yes, only certain activities met his approval, such as my kid’s medical issues. I could do ministry and women’s ministry through my churches. And I’m learning that my husband is an “addict”. But the more my information and knowledge about abuse increased, the more his behavior became destructive and worse. ![How to Deal with Addicted Husband](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Deal-With-Addicted-Husband.webp "How to Deal with Addicted Husband")## REALIZING WHAT MY HUSBAND BEING AN ADDICT MEANT TO ME **Evangeline:** I think back now, and I’m like, my life was out of control. My personal life was in mayhem. In fact, the only place stable was work. My spouse was an addict to an extreme level. As an “addict”, he was also acting out with other women. Sometimes I think we just go through a series of betrayals that are so deep and so intense. It’s almost like when he does it again, you’re in such a state of shock. The reverberations from each of these betrayals almost paralyze you. It’s like you couldn’t even react anymore. My hypervigilance became extreme. I was waiting for the next one to happen. And at some point, I’m became numb. I developed severe agoraphobia. ## WHEN AN ADDICT GETS CAUGHT AT WORK **Evangeline:** We moved four times in 10 years. I lived in four States in 10 years. These were all moves related to him changing jobs. There were multiple incidents with his employers or with a fellow employee. I would never get the whole story or the whole truth. But I knew enough to know that he was misbehaving and acting inappropriately, unprofessionally with subordinates. When he started the last job he had when I was with him, he had already started a relationship with a woman at work before the rest of the family moved. But I didn’t know that. All those years, I was fighting for my marriage. Even though it was a complete disaster, full betrayal, full addiction. It was so exhausting constantly having to manage an addicted husband. ![Supporting My Addicted Husband](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Supporting-My-Addicted-Husband.webp "Supporting My Addicted Husband")I didn’t realize what his addiction was doing to me. I just thought, “He needs help to overcome his addiction. And I’d still be there for him once he figured it out.” That’s truly what I thought. I said to him, “I’ll give you the freedom to figure out your problems, get help, and do what you got to do.” **Anne:** You’re still in this, like, willing to help your husband with his “addiction”? ## MANIPULATION & PROLONGED ABUSE Because many times a husband will say, “I’m an addict” to manipulate us to “help” him. But it’s just to continue to exploit us. **Evangeline:** Yes! He used it to continue to exploit me for sure! I said, “You go get help”. Your addiction is ruining your career. I do not feel safe, [my husband is addicted](https://www.btr.org/is-my-husband-addicted/) he needs to get into a 12 Step Program. Also, you need therapy. So in addiction therapy, the therapist had us create one shared password for all our emails and accounts. We set up accountability and transparency. So I don’t know how he did it, but he still watched explicit material, and had conversations with other women. ![What to Do when Your Spouse is Addicted](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-To-Do-When-Your-Spouse-Is-Addicted.webp "What to Do when Your Spouse is Addicted")He would just “slip up” here and there until life became just one constant slip up. I didn’t realize what was actually happening. ## THE MYTH OF KEEPING YOUR ADDICT HUSBAND SATISFIED **Evangeline:** I’d never spoken to anyone about my marriage. I remember telling one woman at church that I had become fairly good friends about with what I’d found on his phone. He had inappropriate texts with a woman at work. I truly believed the teaching that if you keep your husband busy and satisfied, filling his mind with thoughts of you, it would help him deal with his addiction. She told me that if I satisfy him, he wouldn’t need to seek out explicit material or other women. ![is My Husband Addicted to Me](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Is-My-Husband-Addicted-To-Me.jpg "is My Husband Addicted to Me")When I decide to do something, I’ll go all in. And so I followed that advice, and it didn’t work. It failed. He cheated, betrayed, and continued in his addiction. ## ISOLATION, FEAR & DISCOVERING WHAT HIS “ADDICTION” REALLY MEANT **Evangeline:** I took a leave of absence. I began to search for any resource I could find, betrayal trauma, addiction and narcissistic personality disorder. It wasn’t until I started listening to [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast](https://www.btr.org/podcast/). And I heard other women share their stories of what it was like to be married to an addict. I suddenly heard something I identified with. And of course, at the beginning, I didn’t understand that you can’t take this information to an addict husband. But I made that mistake of taking him the information I was learning. ## MISUNDERSTANDING ADDICTION **Evangeline:** And I truly thought if I just approached him the right way. If I had the magic way to say it, he will understand and see the light. I know he’s intelligent, smart and capable. I must be failing. I’m not saying it right. Let me help my addict husband by trying it all in different ways. He’s bound to get it eventually. ![How to Deal with Husband Addicted](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Deal-With-Husband-Addicted.webp "How to Deal with Husband Addicted")Then he began turning what I knew against me. He started saying that I was the abuser and that I was the one causing problems. The scariest part of my story with him happened when we moved to this state for his job. This was the first time he worked at a hospital for behavioral health. He was the CFO at the hospital. Even though he has no mental health education of any kind. Maybe Psychology 101 that everyone has to take in college. He’s an executive for the facility. But he’s coming home and telling me, you wouldn’t believe the wonders that we see in patients receiving shock treatment. It’s actually still a valid treatment practiced today, and you wouldn’t believe how these people are emotionally stable due to shock treatment. And he’s like, you should look into it. ![How to Deal with Husband Addicted to](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Deal-With-Husband-Addicted-To.webp "How to Deal with Husband Addicted to")**Anne:** For you? **Evangeline:** Yes, he scared me so bad. At that point, I struggled with severe agoraphobia. I was terrified, knew no one in a strange city. I had no friends, no family, and no one to call and talk to. ## FEELING COMPLETE ISOLATION WHILE DEALING WITH MY ADDICT HUSBAND **Evangeline:** I was completely isolated and terrified. If I can’t trust people I live with, who are supposed to be for me. And the people who are supposed to love me and have my back? How could I possibly trust a stranger? I knew I could trust my coworkers in my child advocacy work, but beyond that, I had no one personally. And I was terrified. I was terrified he would commit me against my will and that I would have a shock treatment done to me against my will. And you lose memory, and looking back now that I know that’s one of the effects of that treatment. I understand why he wanted it so bad. We had reached a point in our marriage where I had learned so many truths. There was no return from that knowledge. **Anne:** Once you see it, you can’t unsee it. **Evangeline:** You can’t unsee it. And I didn’t realize then how desperate he was for me to not know the truth of him. I know it now. ![Supporting Alcoholic Spouse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Supporting-Alcoholic-Spouse.webp "Supporting Alcoholic Spouse")**Anne:** So you become a child advocate, recognize what abuse is, but still don’t recognize that he’s abusive. Then you recognize that he’s abusive, and you think, oh, if I can just explain it well enough. By the way, this is totally normal. You’re completely normal. I went through the same thing, trying to help my “addicted husband.” I think every abuse victim does. Because they’ve manipulated us to think they’ve like given us that impression. They’ve gaslit us to think that. So then, you go through that phase, which we’ve all been through, of okay. If I can explain it to him, or if I can get him to the right therapist or something, then he’ll get help. ## THERAPIST DISAPPOINTMENT **Evangeline:** He went to a therapist, and I went to one appointment not to do a couples therapy. But to say, hey, I want to hear from the therapist that you are telling the therapist everything. **Anne:** What type of therapist? Is it an addiction specialist? **Evangeline:** They do therapy for addiction. Just a traditional therapist with addiction training. I told both therapists, “I’m not safe, I’m not safe, and I’m not sure what he’s doing next. That’s going to destroy me and the kids, our lives. I’m terrified.” Did you know that neither of those therapists had one thing to offer me? Not one thing. They didn’t follow up, and they didn’t have anything to give me. ![Prayer for Addicted Husband](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Prayer-For-Addicted-Husband.webp "Prayer for Addicted Husband")**Anne:** That is unfortunately most women’s experience when they work with an addiction specialist for their spouse. It’s so disappointing, invalidating, and frankly dangerous. And that’s why I started our group sessions and our individual sessions. And also why I wrote the Living Free Workshop. [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) helps women determine their addict husband’s true character, and then teaches safety strategies. So basically, it helps women know exactly what’s going on, and then also what’s going to happen next. Because I found most therapists, therapy in general, especially couple therapy or therapy for troubled marriages. They just look at you and blink. They might say the word boundaries, but they don’t know how to actually teach boundaries, because “communication” is always the solution when it comes to therapy. And “communication” doesn’t help with an addicted husband. So I am so sorry. That’s so discouraging. So they just like stared at you and just like blinked at you. ## FALSE HOPE IN ADDICTION THERAPY **Evangeline:** That’s what they did. They had nothing to offer, no suggestions for a safety plan, and didn’t look to him and say, we need to stop now. At this point, we weren’t addressing the misconduct. We were addressing his behavior with addiction. It was out of control and dangerous. **Anne:** Though it felt terrible to you at the time, and they did not do the right thing, there is a silver lining there, and it’s that they didn’t say, oh, I can help both of you. And this is how we’re going to do this. And the reason why that’s a silver lining is that false hope. Sometimes we call it hopium around here that, like, oh, I will treat your husband and make him safe for you, is super dangerous. ![How to Deal with Husbands Addiction](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Deal-With-Husbands-Addiction.webp "How to Deal with Husbands Addiction")We don’t recommend any men’s programs, because we’ve seen them use that to continue to manipulate and control, and they weaponize all the therapy language. It almost makes them like super abusers, because they know how to speak. And it gets scary quickly. When they’ve become these like almost mutants of themselves through learning the therapy language. Did you experience that part, where they’re good at using the therapy language as weapons against us? Evangeline: When we were separated for a year, I felt it a little. I asked for a space where we could talk and actually work things out. Whenever we talked alone, the conversations just went in circles. We kept jumping from one thing to another without solving anything. I still cared about my marriage and wanted it to work, even though we had been apart for a year. I requested, can we find a therapist where we will have space to have conversations? ## MY ADDICT HUSBAND WAS 99 PERCENT DONE **Evangeline:** So we’re both held accountable for how we participate in that conversation, not couples counseling. this point, even though I still desire to keep my marriage and future, he said I’m 99 percent done. You know what that did to me? It took me a couple of appointments before I finally understood that statement. I’m 99 percent done. There was that 1 percent chance, and that dangle. I was the one dangling. He was exercising that power of dangling me, even though he was done. He was already living with a woman for a couple of years. I just didn’t know it. My kids knew it, he knew it. And no one told me. I was the only one. But he kept saying, I’m just 99 percent done. So I’m thinking, okay, he’s not going to the top. The therapist knew he’d thrown in the towel before I did. ![How To Deal With An Addict Husband](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/p-PCyiQQrp0/maxresdefault.jpg) **Anne:** It’s so hard. And I’m guessing the therapist didn’t mention this is abuse either. **Evangeline:** No. **Anne:** Yeah. **Evangeline:** And that therapist actually with the credentials is trained and should have known it, should have seen. **Anne:** Generally, therapists don’t have abuse training. It’s a weird, strange situation. Because people think therapists should have abuse training, but in general, they don’t have a lot of it. They don’t assess abuse. When they think he is abusive. And I am the best therapist, and I can help him with his abuse. That scares me actually even more than the person who doesn’t recognize it. Because if the guy didn’t want to be abusive, he knows what he’s doing, and he would have stopped his abuse already. ## HE KNOWS HE’S LYING & THERAPY WON’T HELP **Anne:** Therapy isn’t going to help him. It makes me nervous. **Evangeline:** I’ve since learned therapy doesn’t fix the abuser. **Anne:** For those of us, me included, who thought, he just needs to know what’s going on, where I went wrong there. And I described this well and why this happens in the [BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). He knew what he was doing. So he knew he was lying and what happened. And so if I was like, ah, this is what’s happening. He already knew it wouldn’t change him. Because if knowing would have changed him, he already knew, it would have changed him already. It was the opposite. He knew exactly what he was doing, and he was doing it on purpose. **Evangeline:** It is hard. It’s really hard to come to terms with the fact that the person you committed to your life, that you love, honor, and cherish. And you bring such a beautiful, valuable side to the relationship to the table. It’s so hard to imagine they’re doing these destructive things on purpose. And they actually don’t care how much you’re harmed, how deep you’re hurt, how devastated you are. And then you get blamed for your response for being emotional or angry. For being any of the valid emotions you’re supposed to experience. When you face betrayal, shock, hurt, devastation, and your life imploding, you’re going to have those emotions. Those are valid, and they’re appropriate. For those to get judged, I mean, you’re emotionally unstable, you’ve got the problem. But their decades of behavior suddenly is not even the issue or not even the focus. ## CORPORATE RETREAT REVELATION **Evangeline:** You know, Anne, there’s one more part of my story. Before I became an advocate, we were actually on a corporate retreat for his work. So all the wives did a spa day together, and we were having healthy girl talk, nothing inappropriate. It was spending this time with these other women who were not from the evangelical community in which I was raised. They were just average, ordinary, great women. We were talking about marriage and intimacy. And I had made a comment that we have intimacy, and it’s healthy in my marriage. It’s great, in fact, if he feels the need to be intimate, even if I’m passed out and asleep, I was okay if he needed to be intimate. And the reaction from these women. **Anne:** You were sharing what you thought was an example of your healthy intimacy, thinking they would be like, oh, that is so healthy that we can be intimate. ![Deal with Addict Husband How to](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Deal-With-Addict-Husband-How-To.webp "Deal with Addict Husband How to")**Evangeline:** Yes. **Anne:** …with you when you’re passed out. **Evangeline:** I was so ingrained with my only role and goal in life, which is to please him to whatever self sacrifice I need to do. My purpose is to please him. Even if that means using my body when I am asleep and on sleeping medication, I cannot verbally consent or even have any memory or knowledge it happened afterward. I thought that was my duty as his wife to provide that for him, in order to help my husband with his addiction. No husband should ever do that ever. You have to consent. I’m like, I consented. I and they told me, no, that’s not consent. You have to be conscious in the moment, consent in the moment. And so I started having conversations with my spouse about it. ## HOW TO DEAL WITH AN ADDICT: REALIZING THE EXTENT OF THE ABUSE **Evangeline:** And it turned out he’d been doing this way longer than I knew, and it was something he continued to do. Even after that conversation, he did it for years. **Anne:** I’m so sorry. **Evangeline:** You know, it was shocking when I found out. The times I didn’t know, it’s like if he did it and then told me, and I knew it was somehow a little better and okay. But finding out it had been going on for years. And then once this conversation started happening with him, this person inside out. You know, when they start lying, you can tell when they are not truthful with you. And then it was having all the subsequent conversations. And in each of those, his lies grew more. The retellings, the details would change in his retellings. And then having these conversations with him is when I would begin to get flooded with flashbacks. Where I would have some conscious recall, and I didn’t know what to do with that. I had nowhere to turn. I was alone in that. And I still stayed married and had a very active, intimate life with him for many more years to come, like eight more years. It was hard to reconcile. **Anne:** Absolutely. **Evangeline:** When you have the good times, and then you have the falling apart times, and then you have the shock and awe times of like, is he really? Is he that bad? Is he that vile? No, I have to be misunderstanding. That had to have been an exception. That can’t have been the norm. Again, it’s just a series of traumas that never seemed to end. ## THE FINAL SEPARATION & DIVORCE AFTER YEARS OF SUPPORTING HIS ADDICTION RECOVERY **Evangeline:** So when I finally separate from him, I finally realize my marriage is over. That I can’t deal with his addiction anymore. I need a divorce. I had at that point already done betrayal trauma work. It was a 17 month divorce with a full trial. I then turned around, and the week I turned 50, he filed the appeal. So I had another 17 month long court. I just won the appeal, but he’s still challenging my win. I actually got a text two weeks ago on the 4th of this month, communicating that exact thought. He said, just be reasonable the way you saw me once upon a time. He wants me to be that 22 year old bride who thinks he is the most amazing person ever. Who can do no wrong. And unless I view him like that, I’m not reasonable. Because I’m asking for something that the law legally entitles me to ask for. From *Focus on the Family*, “Help your husband be the hero to your children.” I chose to do it with my kids, and even though he was working late or I didn’t know where he was. I told them, “Oh, your dad wishes he was here. He’ll be here as soon as he can. You have a great dad who loves you.” I said those things, and I didn’t just do it once. I kept saying it for years. ## REALIZING ALL THE ABUSE **Anne:** And you did it because you thought it would help. It was actually an act of resistance on your part. So I want you to, like, hold your head up high. Because you genuinely thought that it would improve things. It wasn’t because you’re stupid. It wasn’t because… **Evangeline:** No. **Anne:** …your brain doesn’t work. It’s not because you’re emotionally unstable. It’s an act of resistance. It was the only thing you could think of at the time to keep yourself safe. And the sad thing is they’re preying on women’s vulnerabilities. They should educate women about abuse to “focus on the family”, and strengthen a family. **Evangeline:** Yes, Anne, I’m 51. It took me decades to understand all the abuse I experienced in my marriage. No one teaches this in most evangelical groups. Schools don’t really teach it either, especially private Christian schools. I went to a private Christian school for 13 years, and no one ever talked about abuse—not in class, not in church, not even in women’s ministries. For ten years, I led in my role, but no one ever brought me a lesson saying we should stop supporting addicted husbands unconditionally. ## ADVOCACY & AWARENESS We don’t teach women how to be a good support, how to be a safe place to live, how to be a good friend. Can I walk alongside a woman in the middle of trauma, abuse, and betrayal? What should I say? What should I not say? So big churches we have, is that in their bookstores? These materials are not on their bookstore shelves. They’re not promoting them. It is a missed opportunity. **Anne:** That is why I started podcasting. To educate everyone that abuse causes betrayal trauma. A husband’s addiction will always be abusive to you, their wife. The lies, the gaslighting, all that is abuse. You can’t call it anything else. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) **Evangeline:** We didn’t know about erectile dysfunction either. And that my husband needed to begin the pill for that in his early 30’s. I never even learned that fact until my late forties. I didn’t even know that piece of information. **Evangeline:** For over 15 years, I didn’t know things that should be simple to understand. Women need to understand what they’re going through. We need to learn the words and meanings to describe it. For example, if your husband is an addict, you are experiencing abuse and betrayal. ## INFIDELITY IS ABUSE: DEALING WITH AN ADDICT HUSBAND **Anne:** I think one of the reasons why it’s not common knowledge. They want you to think that their shame causes it, childhood trauma, or something. When many of us feel shame or have childhood trauma. We have problems, and we don’t lie to people and deceive them on purpose. ![Husband is Addicted to Phone](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Husband-Is-Addicted-To-Phone.webp "Husband is Addicted to Phone")So many people pretend or act like this isn’t a choice, a conscious choice to harm people and exploit them. But that is what it is, and it’s really hard for the courts to wrap their heads around it. For therapists to wrap their heads around it. For friends and family, to realize that abuse is a conscious choice. He knows what he’s doing, and it’s harmful. And of course, she’s upset. Of course, she’s hypervigilant. Anyone going through that is hypervigilant, because someone was hurting her on purpose. She was trying to avoid the chaos her “addict” husband was causing. Like, it’s hard for people to wrap their heads around it. So I’m so grateful that you were willing to come on today to share your story. Because all of us sharing our story helps other women realize what’s going on. So your bravery today to share has been amazing. **Evangeline:** Thank you for having me Anne. We’re here for you. If you related to any part of Evangeline’s story, we’d love to see you in a [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session](https://www.btr.org/group/) TODAY. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [How To Protect Children From Online Abuse with Kristen Jenson](https://www.btr.org/how-to-protect-children-from-online/) **Published:** March 25, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Here's how to protect your child from online dangers. **Content:** Did you know that it’s considered child abuse to expose a child to inappropriate media? Here’s how to protect children from online threats. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take this [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ## WHEN A CHILD IS EXPOSED TO ONLINE DANGERS A child’s accidental exposure to online inappropriate material. It traumatizes children who view it. They need immediate trauma-focused care to process and heal. Trauma from exposure can affect children in many ways. Often, traumatized children experience: - Sleep disturbances including nightmares and insomnia - Mood swings and behavioral issues - Somberness, sadness - Preoccupation with sexuality - Fear and anxiety about safety ![Protect Children from Online](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Protect-Children-From-Online.webp "Protect Children from Online")## YOU CAN SET BOUNDARIES TO PROTECT YOUNG KIDS FROM ONLINE THREATS Courageous women who face the devastation of betrayal trauma, emotional abuse, and betrayal can find help, healing, and support as they set and maintain boundaries that keep their children safe from exploitative media. An example of a boundary that would protect women and children from the chaotic harm and abuse of exploitative media use. Is asking the user to relocate to a different living space. So that his material cannot harm anyone in the family. ## YOU CAN BE PROACTIVE IN TEACHING CHILDREN ABOUT ONLINE HARMS Often, children have a trauma response. All children exposed to it are abuse victims. They should be treated with compassion, respect, and the intentional care that any trauma victim would receive for abuse. In addition to trauma-focused care, women may find resources helpful in helping their children understand the truths about it. The book **[Good Pictures, Bad Pictures](https://www.amazon.com/Good-Pictures-Bad-Porn-Proofing-Todays/dp/0615927335)** may help teach children about it. ![How to Protect Children from Online Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Protect-Children-From-Online-Abuse.webp "How to Protect Children from Online Abuse")Our [online support group for betrayal trauma](/group/) offer support, validation, and community to women all over the world who seek safety and healing if their husband’s exploitative content use betrayed them. [Attend a session today](https://www.btr.org/group/). ## TRANSCRIPT: HOW TO PROTECT CHILDREN FROM ONLINE ABUSE **Anne:** I have a good friend on today’s episode. Her name is Kristen Jenson, and she’s the founder of Defend Young Minds, an organization that helps protect young kids from online threats by teaching them strategies and skills to use as they go about their lives. Welcome, Kristen. **Kristen:** Thanks, Anne. It’s great to be here with you. **Anne:** My kids love your books. We have them all around our house. My youngest, loves non-fiction. and so she reads them frequently. So thank you so much. Can you just start off talking about your books? **Kristen:** *[Good Pictures, Bad Pictures](https://amzn.to/4vq363f)* and *[Good Pictures, Bad Pictures, Junior, A Simple Plan to Defend Young Minds](https://a.co/d/bgiq7Nu "Good Pictures, Bad Pictures, Junior, A Simple Plan to Defend Young Minds")*. They’re both number one bestsellers on Amazon and have been so for years. And you know, speaking of number one bestsellers, I know your book has been a number one bestseller, *[Trauma Mama Husband Drama](https://amzn.to/4gANiT6 "Trauma Mama Husband Drama").* I love it. I mean, the illustrations are awesome. I’ve read many books that try to rhyme, and some work better than others, and yours works great. ![How to Protect Children from Online Exploitation](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Protect-Children-From-Online-Exploitation.webp "How to Protect Children from Online Exploitation")I love how you approach that. It helps it not to be so heavy, and yet you’re talking about serious topics. Women get trapped in this place where her husband looks great on the outside, but there’s a lot of trauma going on. And then I love how in the back, you’ve got lots of charts that help explain a lot of the issues. **Anne:** It’s frequently a bestseller in the category of teen and young adult nonfiction on abuse, which is interesting to me because I did not expect my book to be for kids. Many people have said, my children love this book. That surprised me. ## THE IMPORTANCE OF TALKING ABOUT EXPLOITATIVE MEDIA **Anne:** I think the thing that probably surprises both of us is how ready and capable children are to learn about these difficult topics. **Kristen:** Kids love these books because they respond to the truth. When a book clearly shines light, I think kids just gobble it up. It’s a relief to them when you’re willing to open up and talk about it or about the effects of exploitative media in a relationship, marriage, and family. Kids are more resilient than we give them credit for, and it’s great that they have these books to help them. **Anne:** Can you talk about why some parents might think that not talking about it may be better for their kids? ![How to Protect Children from Online](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Protect-Children-From-Online.webp "How to Protect Children from Online")**Kristen:** Yeah, I totally get that it may be intuitive, because we want to protect our children from online danger and keep them innocent. Some parents think, what if I tell my kid about it, and then they get curious and look for it. Well, we owe it to our children to teach them how to thrive in this day and age. The goal is not innocence, the goal is teaching a child to make wise decisions. We teach them about all the other dangers and have drills, but somehow we think that this is different. It’s not, it’s a danger, just like every other danger. You need a proactive, intentional approach where you are working to create digital defense skills. When kids know what it is, why it’s harmful, and what to do when they see it, then and only then do they have a real choice to reject it. And they have the beginning of a defense, which of course in the end, it’s up to them. ## REAL LIFE STORIES OF PREPAREDNESS **Kristen:** And I have so many stories of kids. One boy, like seven years old, was just going to ride bikes in the cul de sac. But they went inside and his teenage brothers said, hey, come over. We want to show you something and showed these little boys exploitative media. His mother had talked to him about it. He knew what to do and went home. He told her about it. She was able to debrief him and help him process and neutralize those memories. And she told me, our plan actually worked beautifully. She could have never predicted that that situation would happen. But she was so glad her son was prepared, and he knew what to do. He knew to tell her, she was a safe person to talk to about this. ![How To Protect Children Online](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/fvbr2Fx4fl4/maxresdefault.jpg) **Anne:** She helped protect children from online abuse. Yeah, because they have so many questions, they’ll hear things at school. One of my sons, when he was in fifth grade, we did the maturation clinic, and I went with him. But I had already talked to him about everything. We’d already gone over everything at home. And he told me that at lunch, some kids talked about the maturation clinic, and they were giving the wrong information. And speaking of innocence. I just had two researchers on the podcast. They’re PhD level researchers, and they interviewed a bunch of women who have been through betrayal trauma. And one of the things they found was that women felt like their “innocence” had harmed them. They wish they had abuse education. They wish they had had abuse education. ## PROTECT CHILDREN FROM ONLINE ABUSE: OBJECTIFICATION & IT’S HARM **Anne:** They wish they had more education about healthy intimacy. In general they were religious. It was like, don’t have it until you’re married. Then once you’re married, your husband will show you what to do. You don’t need education about it. Many of them had experienced abuse from their husbands, their [husbands were always on their phone](https://www.btr.org/why-is-my-husband-constantly-on-his-phone/ "husbands were always on their phone") looking at it, and they didn’t even know it was abuse. All of them had experienced coercion, they didn’t know that was coercion. So the knowledge of abuse is that these are the elements of healthy relationships. What I love about your materials is that they teach these healthy concepts without saying the word, to prepare children for when that conversation will happen in the future. They help protect children from online abuse, and its effects. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) **Kristen:** In the book for kids ages seven and older, talks about objectification, how it objectifies people’s bodies. And instead of seeing them as a whole person, who deserves love and respect, they’re just seen as a body or some sort of compilation of body parts. When you objectify a person, it’s easier to hurt them. And that’s another harm of online exploitation, because it shows people being mean and acting like that’s fun. And so is hurting people a good way to treat somebody? No, so that just starts to teach that basics of healthy relationships are respectful and kind, and involves the whole person and trust. Whereas it teaches the exact opposite, it involves violence, disrespect, degradation, and objectification. ## ONLINE EXPLOITATION HARMS MENTAL HEALTH **Kristen:** And you can’t tell me that watching it for years and years. And then going into a marriage will not affect your template, your expectations and your behavior. There are quite a few studies that show that is true. People who look at it have a harder time having a healthy relationship. [They also give their partner betrayal trauma from infidelity](https://www.btr.org/cheating-husband-says/). So turns out there are quite a few studies that show the mental health harms of it. And how it is associated with a wide range of harming mental health, not only in children and adolescents, but also in adults. I would say there are more studies with adults, obviously, it is associated with greater loneliness. This content predicts depression and anxiety. There was a study that showed that both general and aggressive use alone were associated with less relationship satisfaction and relationship stability. Even when accounting for a range of potentially confounding variables. One in Germany was with over 1500 German speaking users, ages 18 to 76. It showed that users with problematic content use scored significantly higher in many problems, obsessive compulsive behavior, depression, anxiety, hostility, phobic anxiety, paranoid ideation. Also, they scored significantly worse in every measure of psychological functioning considered, including again, OCD, interpersonal sensitivity, depression, anxiety, hostility, phobic anxiety, paranoid ideation, and psychoticism. They also found that these results were elevated to a clinically relevant degree compared with the general population. The intensity of these problems was categorized as severe psychological distress. I could go on and on, but basically using it creates poor mental health outcomes. Kids should know that it does harm their mental health. There are so many studies that show this is true. There is a need protect children from online abuse to prevent long term damage. ## DOPAMINE & GENDER DIFFERENCES IN ONLINE EXPLOITATIVE EXPOSURE **Kristen:** The other problem with kids using it: there’s so many problems, but one of them is the dopamine. It sets your dopamine level so high that normal things that kids used to really enjoy, like exploring the backyard and looking for bugs you know, are just boring. So it’s messing with the dopamine in the brain. What would those kids learn and develop? So there’s lost opportunity for normal development. It appears to delay normal social development and cognitive development. These are all things that parents need to be concerned about when it comes to handing a device to a child. Parents need to know how protect children from online abuse. **Anne:** As you’ve been working with parents over the years and [how can we protect children online,](https://www.btr.org/how-can-we-protect-children-online/ "how can we protect children online,") have you seen any gender differences between the information boys need and girls need? **Kristen:** Yes, I have. Girls often get into it differently than boys, but they often end up in the same place. You know, girls are interested in relationships. So they like stories, and they will be pulled in through erotic literature, through fan fiction, even through anime and cartoons. Some women found out about what their husband was looking at online and wondered, “[Is my husband gay](/is-my-husband-gay/)?” They’ll be pulled in that way, but often end up with the videos. So I’ve been writing a book for girls to teach them the harms of it, not only themselves as they watch it. But it harms them if they get into a relationship with somebody who is also watching it. There’s quite a bit of research now that shows that if both partners watch it together, they have like threefold risk for infidelity, which is harmful to a relationship. ## WE NEED TO PROTECT KIDS FROM ONLINE THREATS **Anne:** Well, and we view it as infidelity at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, so they’re already… **Kristen:** Yes, **Anne:**…being unfaithful. If they are, they’re both unfaithful. **Kristen:** Absolutely. We want to help girls understand that there are other ways to get into it It’s not just the bad pictures you see. It’s also the bad pictures that can be created in your mind through books and stories. And even explicit cartoons are dangerous and addicting. This a way to protect children from online danger. **Anne:** Well, Kristen, your work is incredible. My kids love it. I’m so grateful it organizes things in a way that is easy to approach the topic. So I’m like, win, win, win. Go to defendyoungminds.com to learn more about her resources. Thank you so much, Kristen, for spending time talking with me today. **Kristen:** Thank you, Anne it’s been a pleasure. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [How to Know: Should I Get a Divorce?](https://www.btr.org/should-i-get-a-divorce/) **Published:** April 1, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Maybe your struggling with the idea of divorce, but it seems like the safest thing. Here's what to consider. **Content:** If you’re asking yourself, “Should I get a divorce?” you’re likely in a place of deep confusion. You might feel: - Relieved at the thought of leaving - Overwhelmed by what comes next - Unsure if things are “bad enough” This isn’t a simple decision. And if your husband’s behavior includes addiction, secrecy, or emotional abuse, the usual advice to “just try harder” can make things even more confusing. ## SHOULD I GET A DIVORCE? 7 STEPS TO HELP YOU DECIDE This guide will walk you through how to know if you should get a divorce, so you can make a clear, grounded decision. ### 1. START WITH WHAT YOU’RE ACTUALLY EXPERIENCING Before asking, *“Should I get a divorce?”* ask… 👉 **“What is it like to be married to him right now?”** Pay attention to: - Daily stress or chaos - Walking on eggshells - Feeling dismissed, ignored, or blamed - Constant confusion about what’s true Your lived experience is really all that matters. ### 2. IT MIGHT BE MORE ABOUT SECRECY THAN OBVIOUS PROBLEMS Many women expect clear, undeniable proof of wrongdoing. But often, the biggest issue is secrecy. If he’s lying, you may not know he… - has hidden bank accounts - is withholding information - doesn’t tell the truth about how he spends his time. ### 3. DOES HE BLAME HIS ADDICTION FOR YOUR MARRIAGE PROBLEMS? If your husband says he struggles with addiction, here’s what you’re probably dealing with: - Lying - Emotional distance - Irritability or rage - Manipulation This means the issue isn’t just the addiction itself, it’s how your husband acts and how his actions affect you. ### 4. NOTICE THE PATTERN OF HIS BEHAVIOR OVER TIME Instead of focusing on isolated moments, zoom out. Ask: Does he… - take responsibility—or avoid it? - follow through—or make promises that disappear? - create stability—or chaos? 👉 People who manipulate often appear ideal at first. This can include: - Over-the-top attention or affection - Lavish gestures early on - Constant validation-seeking - Moving the relationship forward quickly Seeing red flags *after* you’ve been married doesn’t mean you failed. It means he lied to you. ### 5. PAY ATTENTION TO HOW YOU FEEL AFTER INTERACTIONS One of the most telling indicators is how you feel. After spending time with him, do you feel: - Calm and secure? - Or anxious, confused, and drained? If you’re constantly trying to: - Explain basic needs - Avoid conflict - Recover from emotional blowups that’s important data. ### 6. KNOW IT’S NOT YOUR FAULT Many women feel terrible about needing to consider divorce. You might think: - “Why didn’t I see this sooner?” - “Did I ignore the signs?” Others think: “If I just explain it better… try harder… love more… it will change.” But if your husband’s behavior includes deception or emotional abuse, it’s not your fault. To see if you’re experiencing any of the 19 emotional abuse tactics, take my free [emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). Instead of relying on hope, fear, or pressure from others, focus on gaining clarity. ### 7. USE TOOLS TO SEE HIS CHARACTER CLEARLY At **[Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/group/)**, women learn how to: - Evaluate their husband’s true character - Use protective strategies day by day - Make decisions without needing his agreement or honesty This removes the pressure to “figure it all out” instantly. You can feel: - Relief and grief at the same time - Hope and clarity at the same time - Strength and fear at the same time ## ANSWERING THE QUESTION: SHOULD I GET A DIVORCE? If you’re wrestling with the question, *“Should I get a divorce?”* you don’t have to figure it out alone. You deserve support without judgment or pressure. And a path forward that doesn’t depend on him changing 👉 Join a our [daily support group for women in confusing marriages](/group/) ## TRANSCRIPT: SHOULD I GET A DIVORCE? **Anne:** I have Caroline on the podcast today. She is a Betrayal Trauma Recovery client who recently made the decision to divorce. So we’ll talk to her about her experience. Welcome Caroline. What is your response when people ask you why you divorced? **Caroline:** Although I knew about my husband’s addiction from the beginning, I didn’t know what that entailed. **Anne**: Is it a triggering experience to talk about it with people wondering why you got divorced? **Caroline:** It’s definitely like a panic zone, because you don’t know how people react. Some people are educated on addiction, and others believe it’s normal. So the reactions vary. It’s only been in the past few months that I feel like I can actually say the word pornography when talking about my divorce. **Anne:** You mentioned you knew about his use while you were dating. Or before you married. Did you see any other red flags? **Caroline:** As I thought about it post divorce. I was surprised at [how many silent red flags in my relationship](https://www.btr.org/silent-red-flags-in-a-relationship/) there actually were. Some of those narcissistic traits were that our dates were always extremely lavish and expensive. And it seemed he just had untapped funds from the get go, date one. He would hardly give me any time alone. And always stayed by me, knowing what I was up to, surprise visits. He would fake sick at work just to come see me. It seemed like he almost forced himself into my life. And he flattered me at the time, I thought, wow, this guy likes me. He’s so cute, he’s got all this money. He’s got a good job. But now I see it as him controlling and insecure, and kind of practicing those narcissistic traits. ## THE ILLUSION OF A PERFECT PARTNER: LOVE BOMBING **Caroline:** Yeah, he was a strong member of his church until a few months before we met. And he said a lot about his inactivity in the church. He made a lot of excuses. Like how they treated him unfairly. He undermined his parents while still having them in the palm of his hand. He constantly seeks praise and validation, down to like the littlest things. If he wiped off the counter, he would say, hey look, look what I did, I wiped off the counter. Just fed off of what other people thought of him constantly. ![Decision to Divorce](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Decision-To-Divorce.webp "Decision to Divorce")**Anne:** I was just thinking about my ex. He contacted some people in my life. Because he was trying to find information about filing taxes before we divorced while we separated. He said things like I love Anne so much. I need to make sure I do this for her. And how amazing he was for filing the taxes. Like he felt like he needed tons of praise for just like everyday normal things. That literally he had to do, like if he hadn’t done it, he would have been breaking the law. And it’s like, you’re not going to get a ton of praise for filing your taxes. Every person has to do that. Like, I don’t know why you’re the hero for filing taxes. Women need education about narcissistic behaviors that is super important, especially if they are making the decision to divorce. So that they can know, that was not a man being completely and totally in love with me. That is love bombing. That’s about them, not about me. This is an unsafe situation. I need to take a step back. Which is, what woman wouldn’t want to be love bombed. ## MOURNING THE DIVORCE PROCESS **Anne:** We see that in romantic comedies. Our culture tells us that when you meet the right person, amazing things will happen. That amazing situation, meant for a romantic comedy, is like narcissistic love bombing. **Caroline:** Yeah, exactly, I really saw him and me creating a family. And becoming a mother and him becoming a father. He talked about all sorts of different things when it came to family and being a major influence and support. To his own mom, who was a widow. Many times where I saw an authentic reaction to what he was doing, sadness for what he had done. And then the next day it would be like that realization never happened. So I definitely believe he knew what was happening and what was going on. A lot of the mourning is because you do see their potential. Somebody told me during my decision to divorce, as I had many confusing and conflicting thoughts. ![How to Decide to Stay or Divorce](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Decide-To-Stay-or-To-Divorce.webp "How to Decide to Stay or to Divorce")Because you feel like such a relief, but then you miss them and you mourn the loss of that potential in that person. You can see it so clearly after spending time with that person, and it’s so hard because you want to take them by the shoulders and shake them. And tell them, hey. I believe in you, see you, hear you and love you. You’ve got all this untapped potential right there. One thing that helped incredibly with boundaries. Where before I thought of marriage as a free for all when it comes to each other’s feelings. Because well, you married him. But boundaries are good even inside a marriage to keep yourself safe. **Anne:** Especially when you married someone who makes sad choices and you’re making the decision to divorce. **Caroline:** Yes. ## REGRETS & LESSONS: SHOULD I GET DIVORCED? **Caroline:** I wish I had known that addiction fuels other behaviors. I wish I had known more of the emotional and physical consequences of that addiction. I wish I had known to prioritize my needs and desires. And to have this lesser sense of urgency when it comes to getting married. That it would be okay to just take our time. I think another big thing for me was that I didn’t need to settle just because he was showing interest in me. Instead, I wish I had realized that I can have everything I want in a man and deserve the full package. ![How to Decide to Divorce or Stay](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Decide-To-Divorce-or-Stay.webp "How to Decide to Divorce or Stay")**Anne:** At [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/group/), when we say the full package, what we mean is someone who is not abusive. **Caroline:** Yeah, isn’t that ironic? **Anne:** We’re not looking for a professional soccer player or an ex Navy SEAL, and a million dollar business. No, no, no, that’s not what we’re talking about. We are talking about a man with whom we can partner, who is not abusive. **Caroline:** Yeah, for sure. Just somebody that’s on the same track that I am, you know, I want a lot out of my life. **Anne:** So let’s talk about your age for a minute. We’ve had women on the podcast and BTR.ORG clients from all ages and situations. Caroline, how old are you? **Caroline:** I just turned 22. **Anne:** And how long were you married? **Caroline:** Three years almost to the day. I was 18 when I married. **Anne:** And no children now? **Caroline:** No kids. ## SUPPORT TO DECIDE ABOUT DIVORCE **Caroline:** One of the biggest things that has helped me heal through my decision to divorce is affirmations. They are posted all over my apartment, just small things that remind me of who I am and where I want to be. Divorce does not define me, or that it wasn’t a failure either. I’ve also found it super helpful in the last little bit to share my story. There are so many people my age who have been married for one to three years that are finding themselves in the same place in the neighborhood I grew up in. They’re between two years younger than me and two years older than me. There were 11 of us who are married, and six of us are now divorced. It’s been super helpful for me to reach out to them and ask [how long it takes to heal from my husband’s emotional abuse](https://www.btr.org/how-long-does-it-take-to-heal-from-emotional-abuse/) and share our thoughts, feelings, and progress. And that’s been super helpful. ![Decision Making Divorce](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Decision-Making-Divorce.webp "Decision Making Divorce")**Caroline:** So six of them are now divorced. **Anne:** One thing I find concerning right now is that young people think that if they talk about it, they can somehow avoid it. That has not been my experience. In fact, many of the thousands and thousands of wives I’ve talked to, had many conversations with their boyfriends and fiancés about it. They users lie, conversation about it or asking the right questions will not lead us to the truth, usually. The only thing that will lead us to the truth is observing their behaviors and getting in touch with what do I need? When do I feel safe? Who am I? Being in our own recovery space, so that we can observe those unhealthy behaviors in someone else. **Caroline: Yes** ## FINDING OUT THE TRUTH: SHOULD I GET DIVORCED? **Anne:** For example, many people think, well, if I am open and kind, and I don’t shame the person, then it will give them a better opportunity to tell the truth. I think that is the wrong way to go, because we’re still trying to “help” that person or manage that person. They literally need to be honest. Whether their wife or girlfriend is angry, happy, or sad, their honesty cannot, should not depend on the way their wife reacts. ![Decision to File for Divorce](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Decision-To-File-For-Divorce.webp "Decision to File for Divorce")**Caroline:** Absolutely. **Anne:** And right now, when people talk about addiction, it is floating around that women have the responsibility to not be too angry. Or too shaming, or too this or that, and if they do that, great! Then he will open up, and that puts the blame of his lying on her where it does not belong. It is fully his responsibility to tell the truth, regardless of how she reacts. **Caroline:** Yes, for sure. **Anne:** Betrayal Trauma Recovery does not advocate for divorce. I did not want to make a decision to divorce. I felt strongly that I needed to set boundaries to be safe. So I set a very firm no contact boundary, and also didn’t file for divorce. I’m sure you’ve heard other people say, if you set these boundaries, you’re going to end up divorced. Like it’s your fault, rather than setting boundaries for safety. And if they still abuse you, it’s still their fault that the divorce is happening. ![Deciding to Divorce](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Deciding-To-Divorce-1.webp "Deciding to Divorce")What do you say to people who might ask you. You’re divorced now, and you went to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I guess, Betrayal Trauma Recovery believes in divorce. What would you say to them? ## HOW TO TELL IF I SHOULD GET A DIVORCE​ **Caroline:** Well, my first reaction is laughing, because before I went to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, [which is the best betrayal trauma support group.](https://www.btr.org/betrayal-trauma-support-group/) I definitely wanted to make things work. But I was exhausted and had put off scheduling for a long time, because I was nervous and wasn’t sure what was going to happen. The best thing that happened was that my Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coach helped me identify my core values. So that all my decisions should be made based on those core values that I established. It was very explicit that Betrayal Trauma Recovery is not an advocate for divorce, but that we should also ensure that we’re in a safe situation. And so the decision to divorce came from me. In fact, when I told my Betrayal Trauma Recovery coach, she was surprised I made the decision to divorce. ![Decision to Divorce](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Decision-To-Divorce.webp "Decision to Divorce")**Anne:** And did you feel supported by your coach? ## WHEN YOU NEED HELP WITH THIS QUESTION: SHOULD I GET DIVORCED? **Caroline:** Yes, I definitely felt support from her. The support was to help identify myself, work through and make progress. It was, you’re a strong woman. You can do anything that you put your mind to. And you know, that said it all. After talking with my coach for the first and second time, we talked about boundaries, and I came up with some boundaries that I was going to set with my ex husband. And once the boundaries were set in place, things took a different turn. It made him upset, much more abusive, a different side to my ex-husband that I never had seen. And so to me, setting a simple boundary. We saw his true colors. **Anne:** Was it shocking to you? **Caroline:** Oh yeah, I had never seen him react that way, just completely livid. He’d never really yelled at me like that, but was throwing things. ![Deciding to Divorce](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Deciding-To-Divorce.webp "Deciding to Divorce")## HOW DO I KNOW IF I SHOULD GET A DIVORCE: HE BLEW UP **Caroline:** Just completely different than I had ever seen him before. And this wasn’t a boundary of no physical contact. We had been seeing a therapist who specializes in addiction. And the therapist told me that my ex-husband would have to make the appointments from here on out. Because at that time, for months and months, I was the one making appointments and taking him. To the appointments, the therapist said nothing will change until he wants to do this. So, the boundary was set: You need to make your own appointments to see this therapist. That’s when he blew up. **Anne:** When I realized my husband was as abusive as he was, and I hadn’t seen it as abuse, I was shocked. When I found out how abusive he was. And when I was managing him and when I was not setting boundaries, I don’t think I ever would have seen abusiveness. It sounds like that was a moment for you where you’re like, whoa, he’s abusive. ![Deciding to File for Divorce](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Deciding-To-File-For-Divorce.webp "Deciding to File for Divorce")**Caroline:** This is a very simple thing. That’s all I’m asking you. And it was just chaos. Trying to ask him to do very simple things **Anne:** Without being totally berated, yeah. **Caroline:** That reminds me when I was barely discovering Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I was surfing around on your website to get some more information. And there was a list of behaviors and examples of gaslighting on your website. And consequently, I’m sitting at work in front of my computer and reading these. ## SIGNS I SHOULD GET A DIVORCE​ **Caroline:** I just had the biggest epiphanies, every sentence listed, every bullet point was like yes, this is how I felt. I’ve never been able to put words to it. That’s the moment I decided, okay, something has to change. And I’ve got to get help to figure out what needs to happen and change. But I just remember reading those, it was huge for me. And when people ask me about BTR.ORG or my divorce, and then they go into their own struggles with their spouse, who is a user, I always refer them to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. It’s the same reaction I can see on their face. Every time it’s just, oh my goodness, this is putting into words what I’ve never been able to say. ![First Steps when Deciding to Divorce](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/First-Steps-When-Deciding-To-Divorce.webp "First Steps when Deciding to Divorce")**Anne:** I think it goes from knowing that your husband uses explicit material, being frustrated about it, and trying to figure that out. To realize that you’re in an abusive relationship. And maybe you will be making a decision to divorce. ## WHEN SHOULD I GET A DIVORCE? **Caroline:** Yeah, I never would have classified it as an abusive relationship until then. **Anne:** Yeah, so the shift from I’m worried about my husband. He uses explicit material, and it hurts me. To say he is abusive is one of the most traumatizing shifts in paradigm. But once that shift in paradigm happens, women are like, okay, so I need to set boundaries. Because all the love service and forgiveness will not help the situation. **Caroline:** Right, absolutely. **Anne:** You found Betrayal Trauma Recovery at 22. There are some women who find BTR.ORG at 40 after 20 years of marriage. There are some who find it at 50 after 30 years of marriage. Or women who find it after 2 or 3 divorces. What are you watching for in your future relationships? ![Deciding to Divorce or Stay](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Deciding-To-Divorce-Or-Stay.webp "Deciding to Divorce or Stay")## SELF-CARE & HEALING AFTER DECIDING TO DIVORCE **Caroline:** The biggest thing I watch for is how they treat me and themselves. How they take care of themselves and their sense of personal wellness. I definitely don’t have it like honed down yet. Because I still have belief issues or trust issues. How they interact with other people if they’re constantly seeking validation or having to be the center of the conversation, or reverting stories back to them, and interrupting people. The characteristics of narcissism are definitely what I look for. Something I do regularly is write about my thoughts. I don’t hide from that place of asking the hard questions of myself, or facing the trauma. So if I am triggered, I like to come home at the end of the day and write about it. And sometimes I keep it, and sometimes I throw it away as a symbolic gesture. I’m done with you, done with this feeling. I notice that I’m much more self aware of my thoughts now that I decided to divorce. You know, exercise and being outside have helped astronomically throughout the process of feeling whole again, able and strong, just staying connected to my feelings. **Anne:** It sounds like also just staying connected to reality. ![What to Do After Deciding to Divorce](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-To-Do-After-Deciding-To-Divorce.webp "What to Do After Deciding to Divorce")**Caroline:** Yeah. **Anne:** Because to be with an active user who’s abusing you. You’re either always fighting with them, so there’s like this constant chaos. Or you sort of have to live in their reality, which is not reality. I remember one day I walked out of the house and was walking outside, and I looked up and felt the sun on my face. It felt so new. I looked at the birds, and I remember the birds flying by, and I remember looking at a tree. It was swaying. ## DECISION TO DIVORCE: HEALING THROUGH WALKING & GROWING **Anne:** And it was almost surreal. Like, is this real? This is reality. I just thought, wow, I’ve been living in this fog inside my house with this abusive situation. And my reality has been so skewed. And I started trying to do that too. Just walking outside, letting the sun be on my face. I garden, self care is on my list of what I’m doing now to heal and grow. I like the journey of it, and I’m okay. It’s a crazy journey. That I’m not doing fantastic at it, but at least I’m making small steps forward. **Caroline:** Yeah. **Anne:** Caroline, I know your mom has listened to the podcast and is familiar with Betrayal Trauma Recovery. So many of the things that you learned, she also knew because she listened to the podcast. How has that helped you as you’ve progressed in your healing, after deciding to divorce? **Caroline:** Well, obviously the introduction to BTR.ORG by my mom was super helpful. I am forever grateful for the education my mom has about addiction. Because that’s what it boils down to. Gaining an education about what this addiction does, and having my mom there as a support, was super helpful. You know, being able to take the emotion out of the sadness that her daughter is going through, and looking at the facts, was helpful. ![Making The Decision To Divorce - Caroline's Story](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/n4A7Kj52V2M/maxresdefault.jpg) ## MOM’S WHO LISTEN TO THE PODCAST UNDERSTAND MORE ABOUT THEIR DAUGHTER’S SITUATION **Caroline:** Nobody wants that to be their friend, their daughter, or their sister. For a brief moment, there was that reaction from my mom of, you need to keep trying. And then the next day she called me and said, honey, I was wrong. I’m sorry and I’m here for you, which she did only because of the education she has. **Anne:** I wish everyone who was going through this had a mom who is also listening to the podcast. **Caroline:** For sure… **Anne:** Caroline, thank you for being here today. I’m so grateful that you found BTR.ORG. **Caroline:** Thank you, Anne. ![What to Do After You Decide to Divorce](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-To-Do-After-You-Decide-To-Divorce.webp "What to Do After You Decide to Divorce")![First Steps After Decision to Divorce](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/First-Steps-After-Decision-To-Divorce.webp "First Steps After Decision to Divorce") **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast **Tags:** emotional abuse --- ### [How To Start To Heal From Emotional Abuse - Penny's Story](https://www.btr.org/heal-from-emotional-abuse/) **Published:** April 8, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** It's possible to heal from your husband's emotional abuse. See if you relate. **Content:** Is it possible to heal from emotional abuse and betrayal trauma? Everyday, brave women resist in a variety of ways. Penny shares her story of how she resisted abuse and finally was able to heal from emotional abuse. Attend a [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session](https://www.btr.org/group/) today to share your story with other women who have endured the same type of emotional and psychological abuse and begin healing from emotional abuse TODAY. > **This episode follows Penny’s Story** > *How to Start to Heal From Emotional Abuse – Penny’s Story* (THIS EPISODE) > *[Healing Trauma From Hidden Abuse – What Gets In Our Way? – Penny’s Take](https://www.btr.org/what-is-hidden-abuse/ "Healing Trauma From Hidden Abuse – What Gets In Our Way? – Penny’s Take")* ![Healing from Emotional Abuse Christian](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Healing-From-Emotional-Abuse-Christian.webp "Healing from Emotional Abuse Christian")## TRANSCRIPT: HOW TO HEAL FROM EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Anne:** I have Penny Lane on today’s episode. She’s a writer, wife, and mother with an insatiable passion for life and books. Originally from Queens, she loves being outdoors. Cycling, hiking, traveling, and connecting to and inspiring people. She has a master’s degree in industrial and organizational psychology from Golden State University. And in her spare time, she helps underserved youth learn to read, apply to college and find jobs. ## PENNY’S JOURNEY HEALING FROM EMOTIONAL ABUSE & HELPING OTHERS **Anne:** Her book, [Redeemed, A Memoir of a Stolen Childhood](https://www.amazon.com/Redeemed-Memoir-Childhood-Penny-Lane/dp/1647427002/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2UNFCL9UHY283&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.rT7qUOQeJwpiIFG5ht5GmA.i5pZ4qANo6CpSD7a9Hmx5lpYoqfMTUDWetGwboHY1SU&dib_tag=se&keywords=redeemed+a+memoir+of+a+stolen+childhood+lane%2C+penny&qid=1722894035&sprefix=redeemed+a+me%2Caps%2C133&sr=8-1 "Redeemed, A Memoir of a Stolen Childhood"), she recounts how she was pressured into marriage and endured years of forced confessions, Salem style accusations, secretive disciplinary actions, and excommunication. Penny finally reached her breaking point, and we’re going to talk about her story today. Welcome, Penny. **Penny:** Thank you for having me. **Anne:** Why do you feel it’s important for you to speak out about your abuse and write this memoir? ![How Do I Start to Heal After My Husband's Emotional Abuse?](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-to-Start-To-Heal-From-Emotional-Abuse.png "How to Start to Heal from Emotional Abuse")**Penny:** For one, I feel compelled to write it. Because I met a lot of people who have childhood trauma of different sorts and they tend to be ashamed of it. And the opposite is actually true. When we talk about it is when we begin to heal from emotional abuse, find relief, solace and community. I think it is important to write my story to remove some of the stigma involved with abuse or trauma. It will help others heal from emotional abuse as well. **Anne:** You were coerced into marrying your husband. Can you talk about the abuse that led to that and then also the abuse that you experienced from him? ## NO OPPORTUNITY TO HEAL FROM EMOTIONAL ABUSE FROM CHILDHOOD **Penny:** I was a 16 year old runaway when I met my husband. He was my boss. I worked at an IHOP as a waitress and he quickly saw that I was a very hard worker. He promoted me and then took me out on dates . Because I was a runaway, you know, it was basically living with a family and paying rent. I had no time to heal from the emotional abuse from my upbringing. Pretty soon he said, why don’t you move in with me? Then I was working for him and living with him. I didn’t have any friends. I didn’t have any family because I was a runaway. He started asking me to work more hours. At first I said yes, because he paid me a little bit extra and I made a lot of money waitressing. It was great. ![How to Start Healing from Emotional Abuse Listen to Penny's Story](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-to-Start-Healing-From-Emotional-Abuse-Pennys-Story.png "How to Start Healing from Emotional Abuse Pennys Story")But then he wouldn’t take no for an answer. Let’s say I worked three double shifts in a row. Even though I was 16, it’s exhausting to be on your feet in a very fast moving restaurant for 12 hours, 14 hours a day. I tried to say, no. I’m too tired. Get someone else. And he’d say, this wasn’t a question. You need to get to work. Be there in five minutes or I’m coming to pick you up in five minutes. ## MANIPULATION & CONTROL **Anne:** How old was he? **Penny:** He was six years older than me. He was 23, he left college, and was a restaurant manager for four or five years before I met him. So he was managing a staff of 30 or 40 people in a very busy, high revenue restaurant in a busy location. And he was domineering. A little while after we started dating, he started disappearing and I didn’t know where he was. The girls I worked with said, Oh, he’s got another girlfriend, blah, blah, blah. You know, I didn’t think that was true. Half of you doesn’t believe and half of you does. ![How to Start Healing After an Emotionally Abusive Relationship](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-to-Start-Healing-After-Your-Emotional-Abuse.png "How to Start Healing After Your Emotional Abuse")## RELIGIOUS PRESSURE **Penny:** So one time I went along with him to where he was going, because he said he was going to church. I thought, this guy gambles, drinks, curses and I didn’t think he was a very honest guy. And I didn’t think he would possibly be going to church. So I went along with him. And he had indeed gone to church. He went to a very fundamentalist, Bible believing, evangelical type church. This was in the 70’s, and it was quite emotionally wrought. The services were long and drawn out. At the end of the service, there was a call to walk the aisle, to accept Jesus as your personal savior. ![How to Start the Healing from Your Emotionally Abusive Relationship](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-to-Start-the-Healing-From-Emotional-Abuse.png "How to Start the Healing from Emotional Abuse")I wanted nothing to do with that. I thought it was totally weird. Besides, I had just run away from home. I didn’t want to belong to something else. I wanted to be free. **Anne:** Were you raised religious at all? **Penny:** No, I was born Catholic and communion at 12, under duress. I didn’t know anything. We didn’t really do anything. else. ## FORCED CONVERSION **Penny:** So, long story short, once I went to the church, he would ask me each time he went. He went Wednesdays, Thursdays and twice on Sundays. He would just wait for me at the restaurant and say, okay, we’re going to church. I’d get in the car with him and we’d go. I wasn’t really given a choice . I went two, three weeks of this, going three or four times a week. People started pressuring me to accept Jesus and the story is very compelling. I’m sure you and your readers know this. It’s don’t you want to be loved forever? Yes, of course. Who doesn’t? Don’t you want to have a forever family? ![How to Start Healing After an Emotionally Abusive Husband](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-to-Start-Healing-After-Emotional-Abuse.png "How to Start Healing After Emotional Abuse")Don’t you want to have God’s love? Well, the answer to all of that is yes. I didn’t feel loved. Don’t you want to belong? Of course. I didn’t belong anywhere. Didn’t belong in my family. I didn’t have a family at the moment. So eventually I gave in to the emotional pressure of accepting Jesus and I walked the aisle ## QUESTIONING FREE WILL **Anne:** At the time, did you feel like you were doing it of your own free will or at the time were you like, I don’t really want to do this, but in order to stay in his good graces, I have to do this. It’s hard to identify the [effects of spiritual abuse.](https://www.btr.org/effects-of-spiritual-abuse/ "effects of spiritual abuse.") Can you talk about a bit of your thought process at the time? **Penny:** At the time I thought I was doing it for my own free will. But look, I was 17. And I was a runaway, working for this man, living with this man. I thought that he loved me. I loved him and this is what he’s doing with his life. In hindsight, I don’t know if it was really free will or if it was emotional manipulation and pressure. Because I knew that if I didn’t do this, I would have to walk away from the whole package. Leave him, my job, my living arrangement. And remember I was 17 and I didn’t know how to negotiate in the world. I didn’t know how to find an apartment or find a new job. ![How Do You Start Healing After Your Husband's Emotional Abuse?](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-to-Start-To-Heal-From-Emotional-Abuse--Survivor-Story.png "How to Start to Heal from Emotional Abuse a Survivor Story")**Anne:** This is also your first experience with religion. **Penny:** Yes, and he is my second boyfriend. I had a boyfriend while I was going through high school and I broke up with him because he wasn’t ambitious enough. Then I started working at the IHOP and I met this man. Though here’s the interesting thing that happened. It was a bait and switch. ## ABUSIVE RESTRICTIONS **Penny:** At first it was all lovey dovey and Jesus loves you and you’re part of this forever family. But pretty soon the pastor’s wife and the other women in the church pulled me aside. And said, you can’t dress like that here. And again, I was 17. It was the seventies. We wore blue jeans, platform sandals, high heels, lots of makeup, long shaggy hair, and tight clothes. That’s what we wore, and that’s all I had. And all of a sudden, I couldn’t dress that way anymore. I had to wear skirts and I couldn’t wear makeup or wear less makeup. **Anne:** Only at church or all the time? ![How to Start Healing from Emotional Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-to-Start-To-Heal-From-Emotional-Abuse--Pennys-Story.png "How to Start to Heal from Emotional Abuse")**Penny:** Well, they talked to me about it at church. I really kind of didn’t have any other life. I worked in the restaurant, and I had a uniform. Then I went to church. We didn’t really do anything else. Because previously his life was drinking and going out to eat and drinking. We didn’t do that anymore because he stopped drinking and he stopped smoking. He didn’t pressure me outside of church, but at church I was required. And I kept arguing with the pastor and saying, you guys didn’t tell me this. Like, I don’t want to change. I like this and I liked that. It was a lot. And let’s fast forward three or four months. The pastor said, I want to meet with you guys on Friday night at my house. And so of course I was told I was off work and went to the pastor’s house and the pastor made me wait in the living room. He took my boyfriend into his study and they were gone about 10 minutes, maybe more. When he came out, my boyfriend looked very troubled. ## ENGAGEMENT UNDER DURESS **Penny:** He looked preoccupied. And he said, Penny, will you marry me? We’re living in sin and I can’t live in sin anymore. So will you marry me? He had talked to me about that before. My boyfriend had said to me like three or four visits after I got saved. He said, you know, we’re living in sin, right? I really didn’t know what he meant because I didn’t really have a concept of sin or hell or heaven, even though they talked about it at the church. ![Healing After Emotional Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-to-Start-To-Heal-From-Emotional-Abuse--Penny.png "How to Start to Heal from Emotional Abuse Penny")I wasn’t absorbing it. Like my little 17 year old brain was looking at people and looking at clothes and looking at the guitar player and looking at the piano. I wasn’t able to comprehend that. So it meant nothing to me. And I didn’t feel guilty. Like, I hadn’t been a, what I would call a terrible sinner, right? I know now, because I’ve read the Bible, that like any sin, even jealousy is sin. At the time, I didn’t even think sleeping with your boyfriend was sin. I kind of knew it was wrong, but I didn’t equate it to sin. I didn’t feel any guilt in my heart whatsoever. However, unbeknownst to me, because he didn’t tell me yet, that my boyfriend did. He had been stealing from his boss, he had gambled, he had drank and slept around. He felt very guilty. And so he really absorbed this Christian thing and became all in from the minute he got saved. He immediately quit drinking and quit smoking cold turkey. And that wasn’t the case for me. So then we have this meeting with the pastor. ## HEALING FROM EMOTIONAL ABUSE WHILE IN BIBLE COLLEGE **Penny:** He comes out and he says, will you marry me? Nobody twisted my arm physically, but again, I knew in that moment that if I didn’t say yes, I was out. I was out of a place to live, a job and out of the church. I thought I loved him at the time and I didn’t see a lot of dangerous signals yet. Again, I’m 17. The big thing was he didn’t beat me. So I assumed I was safe. We got engaged and we started planning a wedding. The church was very, very heavily involved. Very heavily, from the get go. I did end up finding another apartment and moving out. ![How To Heal From Emotional Abuse](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/JOgZyAWjul8/sddefault.jpg) So I didn’t live with him anymore after that. The church would talk to us about things like birth control. And again, I’m 17, and I’m thinking, Are you kidding me? If we can’t use birth control, I could have a baby a year for the next 20 years. I said, this is ridiculous. I was pushing back and I was pushing back so much that the pastor said to me, you have a rebellious spirit. We need to send you to Bible school. ## INCREASING PRESSURE & CONTROL **Anne:** I’ve heard this before. You have a rebellious spirit thing, **Penny:** So they sent me away to Bible school, literally. And you know what? I didn’t mind going because the pastor was overbearing and my then fiance, became overbearing. Because the way he looked at the world was different than the way I look at the world now. He looked at the world like the pastor said, therefore you need to do it. No free will. No your own relationship with God, even though that’s what they preach. He became like my spiritual director and enforcer. So I had to do whatever the pastor said. Whether I wanted to or not, whether I was ready to or not. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) And the pastor made me do some really strange things that I did not want to do. But again, under pressure from my boyfriend, here’s an example. The Bible says, children obey your parents. Well, that’s great when you’re living with your parents, maybe, but what happens if your parents beat you? So the pastor made me go back to my stepmother and ask her forgiveness for running away. Now I still had no opportunity to heal from emotional abuse from childhood, and this kind of advice compounded the problem. **Anne:** Even though you ran away because your stepmother was beating you. ## SUBMITTING TO HUSBAND’S ABUSE **Penny:** Beating me, mean to me, calling me names, withholding food. I was humiliated. And again I knew, if I don’t do this I have to walk away. So I did it. He even said, if she wants, you need to move back home. And I thought, you’ve got to be kidding me. I have been gone a year and a half. I have my own apartment, job and bank account. I’m engaged. Are you kidding? Nope. They weren’t kidding. So luckily, my stepmother said, no, I don’t have to move back that I would disrupt the family. I had a little sister and I’ve hurt my sister by running away. I wasn’t able heal from emotional abuse from childhood while still being abused. So luckily I didn’t have to do it, but that’s the kind of thing I mean about domineering and overbearing and making me do things. Now, as a middle aged woman, I look back and say. Why didn’t that tell me right then and there? Who’s going to be in charge of the relationship? That whatever my husband will say will be right. Not whatever I feel in my heart is right, but I didn’t see that. So I go away to Bible college for a year and it’s a wonderful, wonderful experience. ## MARRIAGE & MOVING AWAY **Penny:** During this time, things change at the IHOP. My husband quits and opens up a restaurant. The restaurant ends up failing. Now he’s out of a job and he’s out of money. He gets another job at IHOP, but it’s in Maryland. I’m thrilled to move away from this overbearing pastor. I finished Bible college. We get married after Bible college by that same pastor and immediately move away. **Anne:** And of course you would have had no idea how [fundamentalism and patriarchy fuel abuse](https://www.btr.org/fundamentalism-and-patriarchy-fuel-abuse/ "how fundamentalism and patriarchy fuel abuse"). Really quickly, how did you like Bible college? **Penny:** I loved it, and the reason I loved it is because it was in a beautiful, beautiful setting in upstate New York. I lived in an all girls dorm. I’ve never had friendships with girls my age before because I wasn’t allowed to. **Anne:** You have this good experience where you’re safe, you’re housed, have food. You’re getting an education, even though it’s something you didn’t expect. **Penny:** The college is a lot less focused on rules. I mean, there are rules. For instance at Bible colleges, Christian colleges in that time, I don’t know how it is today. You couldn’t wear pants. Even though it was winter, we wore long wool skirts over boots. It gets really cold in upstate. We had long coats. And there’s rules like that, but you can live with that, right? Because of the rest of it. You’re having a great time, studying and you’re going on little field trips. In the summer, you’re a camp counselor at a Christian camp. So it’s fun. It’s fun to be around other girls my age, something I’ve never had before. I graduate, we get married, we move away, I’m a New Yorker so I dress up. I’m back to wearing jeans and high heels and makeup and pretty dresses. I’m myself. ## STRUGGLES WITH ABUSE IN MARYLAND **Penny:** We live in Maryland for about three years, and it’s rocky. It’s not an easy marriage because he’s domineering. Everything is his way. I feel lost but I don’t know what to do because the church teaches that divorce is sin. And further they teach that if you deliberately do something that you know is sin, like divorce. You may not even be a Christian at all, which is scary, right? Because if you’re a Christian, which I thought I was at the time, then you’re afraid of hell. You’re afraid of displeasing God. It’s a mind game. They differentiate between accidental sin, like, Oh, I fell into temptation. I committed adultery. That would be accidental sin. **Anne:** Which is not accidental at all. That is 100 percent on purpose. Your penis just doesn’t fly out of your pants. In this context when there is this dynamic [biblical submission often becomes abuse.](https://www.btr.org/when-biblical-submission-becomes-abuse/ "Biblical submission often becomes abuse.") **Penny:** Right. But that’s what they teach. And I’m sure you’ve heard that before. **Anne:** Oh, 100%. And then what? You just trip and then you accidentally have it with, no! It’s misogynistic because it always benefits the man. The man, it’s always accidental. But women, it’s always on purpose. **Penny:** Right. ## RELIGIOUS MANIPULATION CONTINUES **Penny:** At some point, We meet up with this guy who runs a Bible study in his home. He’s in Bible college in Maryland. My then husband is an acolyte of this pastor, right? **Anne:** What does acolyte mean in that context? **Penny:** He loves this pastor and is a follower of this pastor. He thinks he’s the greatest. This pastor finally graduates from Bible college and he tries to get ordained. And he’s having a very hard time getting ordained. Which should have been a red flag, but it wasn’t. Finally, this pastor finds a sect that will ordain him. He gets assigned to some rural church in the middle of very rural Michigan in a town of 200. A church that’s been around like a hundred years. It’s a handful of old ladies that are just keeping this church alive. The pastor moves away and my husband misses him so much. He arranges a trip to visit this pastor. I think, great, it’s just a one week trip. We drive to Michigan from Maryland. We go to visit and I’m out of my element. I’ve never been in a place so rural. before. The church is weird and it’s small and I’m uncomfortable. I grew up in a city and these people are people that have never left their hometown. They’ve maybe never left the state. They’re just different. Nothing wrong with them, just different from me. So we go back to Maryland. ## UNEXPECTED NEWS **Penny:** I go back to work and I’m happy. I’m focused on being a good wife. I don’t think about church. We’re visiting different churches every weekend. All of a sudden the pastor who lives in Michigan, his wife calls and says, Hey Penny, I found you guys an apartment. I said, what? She said, Oh yeah, your husband told me to look for an apartment for you guys, that you guys are moving. He hadn’t asked me and he hadn’t told me. So I’m very upset because I did not want to move. I knew that place would kill me. I knew it was too weird for me I didn’t want to move, but he’s making plans. He said, listen, I’m moving. So you need to get your head around this. I’ve given my notice to my boss. We’re moving in two months and I don’t know what to do. ## SEEKING ADVICE & RATIONALIZING ABUSE **Penny:** And I remember talking to his, brother’s wife. So my sister-in-law, and she’s also born again, Christian, but she lives in New Jersey and she’s an independent woman. Back then I would have called myself a weak person, because I had no freedom as a child. I hadn’t healed from my childhood trauma. So healing from emotional abuse seemed daunting. I was scared and timid, and had never lived on my own. My sister-in-law, on the other hand, was a strong woman. She went into her marriage as a strong woman. She was already a Christian when she met my brother-in-law, and she kind of called the shots for her life. When she got married, for example, she said, I don’t want children. In the evangelical church, that’s huge. That’s a big no no. Because that’s your job as a woman, to be a good mother and keep house. So, I trusted her. I called her up and said, what do I do? I don’t remember exactly what she said. But she somehow, in a way that I can’t even remember, talked me into it. By saying, look, he’s your husband. This is part of God’s plan. You think you won’t like it, but God’s plan is always wonderful. And you’re probably going to like it once you get there. So I think you should go. That sort of thing. She didn’t pressure me. She didn’t threaten or ultimatum. There was no hell, nothing like that, but somehow she made it okay. I don’t remember how, probably cause I was traumatized. ## STRUGGLING IN A NEW LIFE **Penny:** So we moved and uprooted everything we knew. And it was very weird. I was very young. We got married when I was 18, three years later, I’m 21. And we moved to this place where everybody is at least 10 years older than me. And they had never been to college. The women never worked outside the home. They got married to their childhood sweethearts at 17, 18 or 19. And now they had a bunch of kids. And the area was very depressed. People didn’t have a lot of money, they literally stretched a giant jar of peanut butter week to week. It was very dependent on the auto industry, so people were needy. People were very committed to the church, because really that’s all they had. I think I’m judging here. I’m making a judgment. Whereas I always looked at things wide open. Like why aren’t we going anywhere on weekends? We lived an hour and a half from Ann Arbor and two hours from Detroit. But nobody ever went to see museums, art or theater. Nothing. I didn’t fit in. ## QUESTIONING THE CHURCH **Penny:** And I started questioning things again. I didn’t like what was being taught. They were teaching some really weird stuff. The church becomes your authority and you have to ask the church’s permission before you do anything. Like buy a house, go on vacation or to have another baby. I was trying to have a baby at the time. And instead of encouraging me to have a baby. They were having me babysit people’s children while they went away for a few days. Kind of to teach me how hard it was to have a baby. **Anne:** But like, didn’t they ultimately want you to be a parent? **Penny:** It’s hard to say now, yes and no. But I had been trying for three years and I was not getting pregnant. **Anne:** Oh, maybe they’re trying to “make you feel better”. **Penny:** Or here’s the thing, like in the church, everybody has a gift. And wouldn’t it be convenient if I had the gift of serving and I don’t have my own children to take care of? Because then I could serve the church a lot. I could serve other people in the church. **Anne:** Be people’s free babysitter. **Penny:** Right. ## STRUGGLES WITH CONFORMITY **Penny:** Some people I get along with in the church and some people I don’t. And we typically had somebody over for Sunday dinner, or they had us over. We were supposed to fellowship and meet with people and have coffee with them. We weren’t supposed to have relationships with anybody outside the church. So none of us had friends outside the church, unless of course you had family there, which we didn’t. It ended up that you only spent time with people in the church. I was not happy, but I was doing my thing. I was doing all the reading the Bible, going to prayer, fellowshipping with the women, helping out in the church and that kind of stuff. ## A WEDDING TRIP **Penny:** And at some point, a cousin of mine was getting married on the East Coast and I had asked to go. **Anne:** You asked the church to go? **Penny:** I asked my husband to go and my husband went and asked the church, went and asked the pastor. **Anne:** Wow, that’s intense, okay. **Penny:** Yeah. The pastors came over and met with the pastor and the elder came over and met with me and they said, Penny, why do you want to go to this church on the East Coast? You know, I didn’t tell them the real reason. It’s boring as heck here. But I just said, My cousins, it’s fun, I haven’t been away, haven’t been back. I haven’t seen them and I want to go. **Anne:** Wait, why do you want to go to this church? You’re just going for like one day, right? For the wedding. You’re not like becoming a member of this other church, right? **Penny:** Oh, it wasn’t even at a church. It was just a wedding, a cousin’s wedding somewhere on the East coast. Right. **Anne:** Wow. Why do you want to go to this wedding? Okay. **Penny:** What they said was you pray about it. If the Lord tells you to go, that’s fine with us. Well, of course I didn’t hear voices and I didn’t hear a yay or nay. And so I decided, well, I didn’t hear no. So let’s go. So we. Packed up the car, we drove, it’s, you know, eight hour drive or something back to the east coast from Michigan. ## SET BACKS IN MY ABILITY TO HEAL FROM EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Penny:** We get there, we’re there for the whole weekend. We stay with cousins or grandmother, I can’t remember. And we had a great time. But as soon as we start driving, getting close to Michigan again, I start feeling this uneasy feeling in my stomach. Like, Oh, I wonder if I’m going to get in trouble for this. Sure enough, there’s a knock on the door. The day after we get back, the pastor and the elder come and they say, Penny, tell us about your trip. I look over at my husband and he’s looking at the floor. I’m like, well, we went, we had a great time. We danced, we socialized and they say, we don’t believe you. Like, what do you mean? You don’t believe me. He said, we don’t believe you had a good time. I said, I had a really good time. And he said, are you sure you didn’t just try to have a good time? I said, no. And they said, we think you’re lying. We think God told you not to go. So we think you’re lying about going and having fun. ## EXCOMMUNICATION & HUSBAND’S ABUSE **Penny:** So we’re going to excommunicate you. We’re going to discipline you is the word they use. **Anne:** Did they think you went somewhere else? **Penny:** No. **Anne:** So this is just like a huge manipulation thing. They know you actually went. **Penny:** My husband went with me and my husband’s in the room. Yeah. **Anne:** And he doesn’t stand up for you? **Penny:** Nope **Anne:** Or defend you? **Penny:** Nope. He defends everyone but me. As a matter of fact, he must’ve called the elders behind my back. To say, We’re back. **Anne:** He was abusive. We know he was abusive, even though you didn’t know it at the time, right? He’s emotionally abusive, psychologically abusive. What do you think was his abusive reason for calling the elders on you and getting you excommunicated? **Penny:** I think he thought that it was his job to keep me holy and keep me righteous. Therefore, anything that the pastor thought was wrong? **Anne:** But you hadn’t done anything wrong. **Penny:** That’s correct. **Anne:** He was just trying to put you down. I’m just trying to think of his abusive reason. He goes to this wedding with you and he sees you happy and dancing. He sees, Oh my word, she could notice that I’m abusing her and that she’s so exploited and sad. I don’t want her to recognize when she’s happy. I’m going to try and shut this down. Maybe something like that. We don’t know. I so wish I could have given you [The Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/ "The Living Free Workshop") at this point in your life, I made it so women could recognize when someone is manipulating them and help them get to safety. ## ISOLATION & DEPRESSION FURTHER HARM MY ABILITY TO HEAL FROM EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Penny:** Possible. So the elder says, you’re on discipline, we’re disciplining you. Discipline means you don’t talk to anybody in the church. You don’t call them, say hi to them on the street, meet with them or come to services. You’re excommunicated. You stay home or you stay away from anybody in the church and we’ll get back to you when we think you’re repentant. So here I am, we have a tiny, tiny apartment, it’s a studio apartment and I’m an outgoing person. I’m an extrovert, and I’m left on my own. My husband leaves for work in the morning, and you can clean the whole apartment in half an hour. I wash the dishes, do the laundry, and do the shopping. I mow the lawn, and do all the stuff. Luckily I love to read. So I go to the library, but I’m heartbroken. I’m crestfallen and depressed. I stay in bed most of the day. Because this has happened to me and I don’t know how it happened. I didn’t lie, I didn’t know how to change it. So I’m powerless and stuck. Again, I don’t even think of leaving at this point, right? Because now I’m three years into a marriage, into the church. I’m a good Christian and believe what I’m taught. I believe the Bible but yet, God’s not helping me **Anne:** And you’re exactly where they want you. **Penny:** I’m depressed and I’m not eating and I’m not sleeping. Again I call my sister-in-law or my sister-in-law calls me. She must have heard about it and she calls me. And she says, Oh Penny, you know, we’re all in sin one way or the other we’re all in sin. ## CONFESSION & RETURN **Penny:** So just confess to the elders that you lied and get it over with and they’ll take you back. It’ll be fine And so I say to myself, Oh my God, I don’t know why I didn’t think of that. That’s what I’m going to do. So I do it. I tell my husband, I’m ready to confess. He goes and tells the elders. A couple of days later, the elders come back to me and they come to the house and they’re all smiling with these fake smiles. Cause there’s a verse in the Bible that says that there’s more joy in heaven over the one son who comes back to the faith and the hundred non believers that convert. I don’t remember the exact verse, but it’s something like that. So they say, we forgive you. And we’re so happy. This is midweek so stay away from the church . And We’ll invite you back to the church at the Sunday service. ## CONTINUED ABUSE FROM PUBLIC HUMILIATION HARMS MY ABILITY TO HEAL **Penny:** And what I didn’t know, which they didn’t tell me at the time, was that when they invited me back to the Sunday service, I basically sat outside until the elders brought me in. And then they said, congregation, we have something to tell you. We have something to rejoice in. Our sister Penny has repented of her sins and she’s been in sin for a month. Thank God, praise God. She’s repented. She’s come back to us and the Bible tells us to welcome her with open arms. Well, a couple of people in the church stood up, a husband and wife team that were kind of new to the church. They’d been there maybe a couple months. They got up and they said, this is wrong. And they got up and they walked out. **Anne:** Were they like, we don’t want her back? So that’s why they left? **Penny:** No, I think that they were upset that this happened to me. **Anne:** Oh, okay. So they were on your side. Good for them. **Penny:** Everybody else in the church was dead silent. Nobody said a word and everybody’s staring at me. I had no idea this was going to happen. In those days we sat in a circle, so a great big circle. Imagine we were in like a a ballroom. We were renting an old, old, old hotel in this town, a big giant ballroom. We’re all sitting in a circle all facing each other and everybody’s staring at me aghast. He doesn’t tell them what the sin is. ## PSYCHOLOGICAL ABUSE **Penny:** So you can imagine people are thinking, was it adultery? Was it child abuse? Does she need to heal from emotional abuse? Was it theft? Is she a gambler? Is she a drinker? Does she take drugs? Nobody knew, right? **Anne:** I just want to pause here for a second to point out why this is happening, not necessarily to you in particular, but just in general. It’s psychological abuse to try and force someone to think that something happened when it didn’t. And then they also want to ruin someone’s reputation. It’s so hard to heal from emotional abuse when you can’t get the right help and are still being abused. So they could be like, okay, the sin was you jaywalked, but we’re not going to tell people that . And we’re just going to leave it up to everybody’s imagination in order to ruin your reputation and harm you. Wow. **Penny:** it was really horrific. ## WHEN YOU ARE LIVING IN FEAR YOU CAN’T HEAL FROM EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Penny:** And then here’s the other thing that happens to me as a person. On the inside because I didn’t do anything wrong to begin with, and they told me I did. From that moment on I walked on eggshells every minute of every day. I could never relax because I never knew if I was doing something wrong. And I didn’t know if I was lying because if somebody said to me, how are you doing today, Penny? But really I was nervous in my stomach, but I didn’t want to say that. Then I would run back to that person and say, I’m okay, but I’m nervous in my stomach and I didn’t want to lie to you. I was constantly going back to everybody and correcting myself. I looked like a fool. Now people don’t know if they trust me. **Anne:** I want to point out, this is what an abuser would do to undermine your confidence to exploit you more or control you more. It is a purposeful tactic that someone would do to stop them from healing from emotional abuse. **Penny:** I did not know that at the time. **Anne:** Right. I’m just pointing that out to my listeners. So that if they’re like, Oh, emotional abuse is happening to me right now it’s impossible to heal. It is a purposeful thing to undermine someone’s confidence. **Penny:** this went on for another couple of years, living in fear and turmoil and insecurity. Something else happened and I was accused and disciplined again, for a very long time, for a year. I was really broken as a person, suicidal, very broken. And when it came time, the elders decided enough. ## HEAL FROM EMOTIONAL ABUSE BY REALIZING INDEPENDENCE **Penny:** They said, you either leave or you confess. I decided to leave and that meant leaving the church. I left my husband and I left the state. Clearly I was a completely broken person. I was 31 by that point. And I basically had to start life all over again. Meaning I didn’t have a job, money, degree or career. I was scared of everybody, I thought my life was over at 31. Nobody would love me and I would just be a street beggar and maybe a waitress. But that’s not what happened. Because once I was free I became a full human being . It’s been a powerful, powerful thing. Once I began to heal from emotional abuse, I became a highly successful and highly paid salesperson. I have a master’s degree and undergrad degree, am highly respected and retired early. I adopted a son, have a wonderful husband and home. It took a lot of work and it’s still work. **Anne:** If you could go back to that 17 year old that you were and talk to yourself when you’re working at that IHOP. What would you say to yourself? When you weren’t yet asking the question, “[am I being spiritually abused](https://www.btr.org/spiritual-abuse-symptoms/ "am I being spiritually abused")?” **Penny:** I would say don’t do it. There are many people in the world. He’s not the only one. This isn’t your only job in the world. There’s many jobs in the world. You don’t need them. You’re stronger, you’re wiser, you’re smarter. You can do it on your own. ## HEALING FROM EMOTIONAL ABUSE & GETTING YOUR LIFE BACK **Anne:** That’s what I want to share with our listeners is I don’t know where your journey to psychological and emotional safety will take you. It’s so different for every single person. But the important thing is that you are brave and you are strong and you can do it. The abusers want you to think that you can’t heal from emotional abuse. They want you to think you’re dependent on them. They want you to think that you’re not smart or incapable. And that is not true. You are brave and strong. You are capable. When you heal from emotional abuse, you can do anything. So Penny, thank you for your story, and wish you well as you heal after emotional abuse. I appreciate you coming on today’s episode. **Penny:** It’s my pleasure. Thank you for having me. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast **Tags:** emotional abuse --- ### [Healing Trauma From Hidden Abuse - What Gets In Our Way? Penny's Take](https://www.btr.org/what-is-hidden-abuse/) **Published:** April 15, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** If you're healing trauma from hidden abuse, here's how to move forward. **Content:** Hidden abuse is characterized by lies and manipulation, and it causes trauma that’s hard to recognize. To discover if you’re experiencing any of the 19 types of hidden abuse, take our [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). > **This episode follows Penny’s Story** > *[How to Start to Heal From Emotional Abuse – Penny’s Story](https://www.btr.org/heal-from-emotional-abuse/)* > *Healing Trauma From Hidden Abuse – What Gets In Our Way? – Penny’s Take* (THIS EPISODE) ![What is an Example of Hidden Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-Is-An-Example-Of-Hidden-Abuse.webp "What is an Example of Hidden Abuse")## WHAT IS HIDDEN ABUSE? One of the biggest obstacles in healing trauma from hidden abuse is understanding what’s happening to you. The constant barrage of lies and manipulation from the abuser can make it incredibly difficult for women to see the reality of their situation. Gaslighting, a common tactic, can distort a woman’s perception of reality, making her doubt her judgment and experiences. ![How to Heal from Hidden Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Heal-From-Hidden-Abuse.webp "How to Heal from Hidden Abuse")Traditional therapists, clergy, and even well-meaning friends and family may not recognize hidden abuse for what it is. ### BARRIERS TO DISCOVERING HIDDEN ABUSE: - **Lack of Understanding:** Many women fail to recognize lies, pornography use, and infidelity as forms of emotional and psychological abuse. - **Misguided Strategies:** Conventional advice focuses on improving communication and forgiveness rather than educating about abuse and implementing safety strategies. - **Isolation:** Feeling misunderstood leads to social withdrawal, making it harder to seek support. - **Being Dismissed:** Without a supportive network that acknowledges abuse, women begin to question their experiences and feelings. - **Stigma:** Fear of judgment and the stigma of “giving up on the relationship” or not being a good wife prevents women from seeking emotional safety. - **Guilt and Shame:** Self-blame (or being blamed by the abuser) stops women from reaching out for help. - **Trying to Fix Yourself:** Believing the problem lies within themselves keeps women from finding emotional safety. - **Confusion:** Manipulation tactics like gaslighting cause confusion and self-doubt. - **Entrapment:** Continued manipulation leaves women feeling trapped. - **Pressure to Reconcile:** Cultural and religious norms prioritize preserving the marriage over individual well-being. ![What Does Hidden Abuse Look Like](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-Does-Hidden-Abuse-Look-Like.webp "What Does Hidden Abuse Look Like")### WHEN YOU GO FOR HELP, BUT THEY DON’T IDENTIFY HIDDEN ABUSE If you’ve tried to figure out what’s going on and you haven’t been able to feel more emotionally safe, there is help. [The Free Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast](https://www.btr.org/podcast/) helps women learn more about how to spot hidden abuse. ## HEALING TRAUMA FROM HIDDEN ABUSE IS POSSIBLE If you’re struggling to heal the trauma from hidden abuse, consider attending a [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session ](https://www.btr.org/group/)TODAY and take the first step toward a brighter, healthier future. ![Trauma from Hidden Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/rauma-From-Hidden-Abuse.webp "Trauma from Hidden Abuse")## TRANSCRIPT: HEALING TRAUMA FROM HIDDEN ABUSE **Anne:** Penny is back on today’s episode. You can find her story in an episode called [How to Start to Heal from Emotional Abuse, Penny’s story.](https://www.btr.org/heal-from-emotional-abuse/) We wanted to talk about the aftermath of emotional abuse, how it’s misunderstood by people in general, and how to face that. So welcome back, Penny. **Penny:** Thank you. Thank you for having me. ![What is an Example of Hidden Emotional Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-Is-An-Example-Of-Hidden-Emotional-Abuse.webp "What is an Example of Hidden Emotional Abuse")**Anne:** So this type of hidden abuse where you don’t have someone charged with domestic violence. Why do you think it’s so hard for people to understand what it takes to heal trauma from hidden abuse? **Penny:** Yeah, I think like you said, they don’t see any bruises, scars, or black eyes. We want to fit in and be accepted. We don’t want to be different. And so we look normal on the outside, but the inside is where the pain, results, and leftover baggage from emotional abuse is. Things like fear, anxiety, and uncertainty. Am I doing the right thing? Am I saying the right thing? And so this kind of stuff lingers with a person for a long time, or at least in my case, a very long time. And still does, even though I’ve been working on recovery for decades. **Anne:** Yeah, the lack of self confidence is due to emotional abuse, because that was the purpose of the emotional abuse. This is why it’s so important to find a [betrayal trauma support group.](https://www.btr.org/betrayal-trauma-support-group/) For years, someone intentionally undermined your sense of self, and also purposefully undermined your, I call it a sacred internal warning system, where you know something’s wrong. ## REBUILDING SELF-IDENTITY **Anne:** You’re trying to resist something that’s harming you. You don’t have the words to describe it. You’re going to the person who is harming you and telling him, “You’re harming me”, but he already knows. He knows he’s exploiting you. So he takes that as a cue, “Okay, I need to undermine her sense that something’s wrong.” Otherwise, I’m not able to exploit her.” So it doesn’t help to share your feelings with him. He purposefully erodes your sense of self over time. And when you’re safe from the abuse and not exposed to it anymore, rebuilding that sense of self is such a process. ![Does Hidden or Emotional Abuse Count As Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Does-Hidden-Or-Emotional-Abuse-Count-As-Abuse.webp "Does Hidden or Emotional Abuse Count As Abuse")**Penny:** Part of the emotional abuse I was put through was with my stepmother when I was a child, and it carried with me to my young adulthood when I married early. My stepmother told me constantly, you’re dumb, you’re stupid, you’re worthless, you’ll never amount to anything. So, of course, I had a low opinion of myself going into adulthood. Even though on the outside, you may not have seen that. It was trauma from hidden abuse. And so when I married young and married a partner who tried to control me and told me that I was in sin. Because the pastor told him that I was in sin, he wouldn’t listen to me. There was nothing to talk about, and I was wrong. And as soon as I repented, we would be back to normal, and all would be fine. And I think it was pressure to have me confess to something, because I was too strong willed for this particular church and this particular pastor. I was too questioning. And wasn’t as docile as they wanted women to be. ## SOCIETAL & RELIGIOUS SCRIPTS THAT HIDE ABUSE **Penny:** And they actually taught that women should submit to husbands, that they should glorify God by glorifying their husbands. This is when[ biblical submission becomes abuse](https://www.btr.org/when-biblical-submission-becomes-abuse/). So anything I said or did that wasn’t according to the pastor or my husband’s wishes was considered wrong. And I was told this constantly. ![Be Free from Hidden Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Be-Free-From-Hidden-Abuse-1.webp "Be Free from Hidden Abuse")So, when I left that abusive situation finally at 32, I questioned everything I did and said. Because my whole life, my childhood, my young adulthood, my early 20s. I was told I was wrong and my thinking was wrong, and who I was wasn’t good enough. The trauma from hidden abuse doesn’t go away overnight. And it takes a community. In my case. I moved far away and left the church. I stopped practicing that religion, and I surrounded myself with people who were smarter than me. That liked me and accepted me for who I was. And here’s an example of how I rebuilt it. One of my friends said, Penny, you should apply for this job. We have an opening at my firm. This woman was college educated, and I wasn’t, and she worked in finance, which I hardly knew what that meant. And she said, “You should apply to this job.” And I said, oh no, I can’t. I’m too stupid. And she said, Penny, you’re not stupid. You’re smart, and we’ll train you. You should apply. Guess what? I applied and they hired me over 30 or 40 other resumes that they had on their desktop. I saw a stack of resumes. ## REALIZING SELF-WORTH **Penny:** So I knew, wait a minute, maybe my stepmother, ex-husband and pastor, maybe they were all wrong. And that’s how I slowly started rebuilding my life, surrounding my life with people who believed in me and held up a mirror to me that said, “You’re not stupid, you’re not ugly, dumb, or worthless. You are able, and here’s the proof.” ![What Are Examples of Hidden Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-Are-Examples-of-Hidden-Abuse.webp "What Are Examples of Hidden Abuse")And then I started college. I put myself through community college, and I started getting A’s and B’s, and the teachers started calling on me in the classroom. They held me up as an example of here’s some good thinking, here’s a person who read the work, or here’s the person who gets this idea. And slowly over time, and I’m talking decades, with the help of friends, holding up a mirror to me and showing me who I was. I started to change my opinion of myself. But it took a long time, work, and struggle and pain. Because those old thoughts and those old scripts still played in my mind. **Anne:** One thing I want to point out to victims is that exploitation is such a huge part of trauma from hidden abuse. It is abuse in that they want something from you, your labor, your admiration. They want you to cook them dinner, have sex with them, or go to a party with them. They want something from you. So instead of caring about you, they care about what they can get from you. ## HIS LIES & MANIPULATION WILL ALWAYS BE HIDDEN ABUSE **Anne:** And because of that, anyone who hears, you’re not good at this. If we knew what was happening, the best defense is to say, in a strategic way. I actually teach this in [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). Is to say something like, oh, you’re right. I bet you don’t want to be around somebody like me. That makes sense. Then leave. Then they’re like, wait, no, you can’t go. ![What is Hidden Harm](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-Is-Hidden-Harm.webp "What is Hidden Harm")We know exploitation is the issue, because if they think so poorly of us, why would they want to be around us? Why do they not want us to leave when we say, oh, okay, we’re going to leave? Suddenly they’re like, you can’t leave. And then they want to stop you from leaving by being even more abusive, which also doesn’t make sense. If you weren’t capable, powerful and talented, they wouldn’t have anything to exploit from you. I think that’s the thing they’re trying to hide. I think they’re thinking she’s capable, smart, and awesome. If she finds out how capable she is, how smart she is. She’s not going to want to stay here. So I’ve got to hide that from her, because I want to use her talents for myself. Heaven forbid, if she used her talents for her own self and her own life. Do you think your step mom was exploiting you? **Penny:** I absolutely do. She was handicapped, crippled and in pain. My father was no help to her at all. He didn’t provide well, or help around the house. She needed me, but there was more to it than that. These people who exploit us, who hurt us emotionally, psychologically and physically. In her case, she was bitter and angry. ## EXPLOITATION BY FAMILY MEMBERS **Penny:** Now that I’m a much older person and look back on it, she was angry at herself. She married my dad, who was a complete loser. Her parents warned her. Her parents said, don’t marry this guy. He’s a liar. They saw through him. She didn’t. Or she did it anyway, because she wanted to get out of her house. They not only exploit us for our labor, in her case house cleaning, babysitting, and chores. We become their punching bag, because there’s nobody else to defend us. She knew my dad was never home. So she did it when he wasn’t home, of course, and when he came home late at night, was drunk. She had hours, she had all day until 8 or 9 at night to take advantage of me and create trauma this abuse was hidden from everyone else. ![What is Hidden Emotional Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-Is-Hidden-Emotional-Abuse.webp "What is Hidden Emotional Abuse")They break us down and make us feel small to exploit us for our labor or whatever they want from us. Because if we’re smarter than them, yes, we will leave. And eventually I did when I was old enough and had the wherewithal. But I couldn’t leave at 8, 9, 10 or 11. I had no idea where to go or how to do it. **Anne:** Why do you think it’s so hard for other people to see this type of trauma from hidden abuse? When a victim is either in it or healing, and they might blame her. Or say something like, you’re just bitter or you need to move on, or why can’t you get over it? Even when you’re out of it. You’re not married anymore, for example, I’m talking about the universal you. **Penny:** Yes. **Anne:** A victim is not in the relationship anymore. She’s relatively safe. ## HEALING TRAUMA FROM HIDDEN POST SEPARATION ABUSE **Anne:** Most of us experience [post separation abuse](https://www.btr.org/post-separation-abuse/ "post separation abuse"). I was abused after my divorce for eight years through my ex’s messages about our children. So most women deal with post-separation abuse. And that’s why you know, we’re not “moving on” because the abuse is right then, like it happened today. He wrote me an abusive message and lied about me today. But in terms of women who are healing trauma from hidden abuse, and maybe in a stage where they need to talk about it. Or they’re trying to process what happened, and bystanders say things like. You need to move on, or why can’t you just forgive, or give your power away? Or any of these like super hurtful things, because they don’t understand that she is healing from this type of trauma. ![Are All Narcissists Abusive](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Are-All-Narcissists-Abusive.webp "Are All Narcissists Abusive")**Penny:** Part of it is that for people like you and myself, and those who have experienced hidden abuse. We get how deep and painful those wounds are, and how they don’t go away. And those fortunate enough to not have that happen to them, they don’t get it. They really don’t. That’s one of the reasons why we need somebody to talk to that will validate us and help us heal. And give us a safe place where we can talk about the everyday nightmares and fears that come up in routine life. Our friends, it’s quite possible they just don’t have the capacity. And someday they will. ## WHEN THERAPY MAKES THINGS WORSE **Penny:** One of the reasons to read memoirs that may be different than your life is so that you can learn what other people have to go through to survive and to succeed. I mean, that’s why I read memoirs and I think that’s how I learn about other people and how that happened to them. **Anne:** Reading is so valuable. You can get inside someone’s head in a way that you can’t from, like a movie or other experience. To develop compassion for others. But I also think that’s why it’s so important to ensure you’re connected with other women who understand. That’s why we do [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery daily Group Sessions](/group) and [Individual Sessions](https://www.btr.org/individual/). Because everybody at Betrayal Trauma Recovery has been through it. We all totally get it. ![Signs of Hidden Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Signs-Of-Hidden-Abuse.webp "Signs of Hidden Abuse")Even a good therapist who hasn’t been through it will have a different take. Than someone who has been a victim who understands hidden abuse on that deep personal level. What it’s actually like. Because we’ve had so many women come to us who have gone to therapy, and the therapy actually made the situation worse. Because they didn’t understand that she was resisting the abuse the entire time. [In your story, if you haven’t heard it again, her episode is called, How to Start to Heal from Emotional Abuse, Penny’s story](https://www.btr.org/heal-from-emotional-abuse/ "In your story, if you haven't heard it again, her episode is called, How to Start to Heal from Emotional Abuse, Penny's story"). There’s a part, Penny, where you move out into the country. And you did that as an act of resistance. You thought, maybe it will improve our marriage if I do this. Maybe I can make things work. The same thing with the church. But some therapists might say, why did you do that? If you knew things were so bad and didn’t like him, why did you move away? ## SAFETY STRATEGIES TO PROTECT YOURSELF **Anne:** And the answer is I’m resisting, I’m trying to improve things. I realize it did not improve things, but my intent was to improve things. Same [thing with women who are being lied](https://www.btr.org/husband-lies-about-small-things/) to and yelled at. They might have sex with their husband, for example, and a therapist might say, why did you do that? And it’s because I thought if I did, he would not be mad at me anymore. ![Hidden Abuse Signs](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Hidden-Abuse-Signs.webp "Hidden Abuse Signs")**Penny:** Nobody wants to be abused. Nobody wants to be exploited. We just don’t realize, especially if you’re stuck there financially and have children. It’s hard to leave if you’re financially dependent. And they make us emotionally dependent. It’s not your fault. If you’re a victim. **Anne:** They’ve done a lot of damage, but I think even if it’s not a therapist, just people around saying something like, why didn’t you do this? It’s just so not helpful. **Penny:** Not helpful. It’s actually hurtful, because then it makes you feel like something was wrong with you for not doing more. I don’t think you had a choice. ![Can Emotional Abuse Be Hidden](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Can-Emotional-Abuse-Be-Hidden.webp "Can Emotional Abuse Be Hidden")**Anne:** As I interview victims experiencing hidden abuse, it’s interesting. Because I’m asking questions like, and then this happened, or tell me about what you were thinking? And that’s not to victim blame or say they did something wrong. But to help other victims realize that this thought process that all of us go through is common, and that they’re not doing anything wrong. They are actually doing what anyone in this situation would do. Another point to make is the “right” thing to do, for example, stand up for yourself. Which you would think would work is not the solution. ## WINNING ARGUMENTS DOESN’T UNCOVER HIDDEN ABUSE **Anne:** Your background is that you had a low opinion of yourself due to your stepmother’s abuse. In my case, I had strong self esteem. And I thought I was super smart. And so I would fight my abuser and be like, what? No, you don’t have this right. And I would usually win our arguments. And he was confused, and he would say things like, “Wait a minute. How are you winning this argument? I went to law school.” My ex is an attorney, and I would say, “because you don’t make any sense.” And the reason why I would say that is because he wasn’t making any sense. Because he wanted to either exploit me or do something terrible for our family. And he was trying to give me like a bogus reason. This will be good for our family, because we’ll have this awesome rally car in our driveway, and it will make our neighbors think we’re cool. Something like that. ![Emotional Abuse Can Be Hidden](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Emotional-Abuse-Can-Be-Hidden.webp "Emotional Abuse Can Be Hidden")And I was like, what are you talking about? You are not making any sense. But the reason why I bring this up is that so many women are actually confident and don’t have a low self-esteem. But it’s not keeping them from being exploited or abused, because fighting with the abuser also doesn’t actually stop the abuse. **Penny:** Right. **Anne:** Then you just end up in an argument. Sometimes it ends with you just giving up. In my case, I didn’t give up. So our arguments would last a long time, until basically he would pretend to give up. And then, like literally 10 minutes later, that rally car would be in our driveway. That’s just a metaphor. You know what I mean? ## WHEN YOU CAN FINALLY SEE THE HIDDEN ABUSE **Anne:** So that’s what’s really hard for women too, because I think inside of ourselves, we’re thinking maybe if I would have been quieter, maybe if I hadn’t asked so many questions, maybe if I hadn’t stood up for myself more, what if I had done this or that, would it have changed things? And the answer is no, they’re going to choose to do this no matter what. ![Emotional Abuse is Usually Hidden Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Emotional-Abuse-Is-Usually-Hidden-Abuse.webp "Emotional Abuse is Usually Hidden Abuse")**Penny:** Yep, all of us, I think, are taught as young girls to believe in the happily ever after. And most of us take our marriage vows seriously. I did. And so I couldn’t fight, because I was under the dictate of women submit to their husband. So I could try to express my view, but it didn’t carry any weight whatsoever. And I just had to live with it until it reached a point when I realized I can’t be here anymore. This is not who I am. This is not where I belong. The church is asking me to do stuff that I don’t want to do. My husband, I no longer respect him or love him. If standing up for yourself or fighting will get you emotionally hurt. It’s time to step back and say, you know what, I made a mistake, and it’s okay to make mistakes. I didn’t have all the information. I did not know who he was. He didn’t show me who he really was. But now that I know, and I don’t feel comfortable, I feel exploited and have trauma from hidden abuse. It’s time for me to step back, keep my mouth shut. Until I can find a plan, because that’s how you stay safe. You have to stay safe for yourself and your children until you can make a plan. ## LIVING FREE WORKSHOP STRATEGIES HELP YOU SEE HIDDEN ABUSE **Penny:** And that means find community, find help, whatever it takes to successfully extract with the least amount of trauma. **Anne:** Absolutely, and that’s why I wrote [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). Because in my experience interviewing all the victims I’ve interviewed over the years, over 300 on the podcast and in person. In our efforts to resist this trauma from hidden abuse, we’ve all tried different things, but it usually falls into two categories. ![Healing Trauma From Hidden Abuse - What Gets In Our Way](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/8Fd34dtRiRY/maxresdefault.jpg) Either we’re trying to stay safe by keeping our head down, thinking that if we do what he says, it will get better. Or we’re trying to fight it. That’s not right. You can’t do this to me. You need to go to therapy. I’m gonna explain this to you. Those are the two categories that resistance falls under, but it could fall under any form of resistance. But because neither of those things work, the victims need safety strategies. What safety strategies do is they enable you to resist in a way that you’re not doing what he wants, so he can’t exploit you. But you’re also not fighting him, so he can’t fight back, really. And so it’s this interesting middle place. Where it took me so long to figure it out is because I could not figure it out. Eight years post divorce with I’m still experiencing hidden abuse. He’s writing me messages almost every day about our children, medical neglect, all kinds of things going down. I try to go to the court to say, hey, this is what’s happening. Please stop this. He got more custody due to that court case, and things just got worse. And so I prayed and developed these strategies, and they worked. And now I have full custody of my kids. **Penny:** That’s great. ## EDUCATION IS A PATHWAY TO SEEING HIDDEN ABUSE **Anne:** So I think having safety strategies is important, but many people don’t understand that. They think, oh, everything would be fine between you and your ex. If you just take him seriously or, and it’s like. That’s not what’s going on here. It’s so much more. **Penny:** I think it’s important to surround yourself with people who think highly of you and support you. Because the people who say those things again don’t get it. And it’s not helpful to hear. When you, even if you had left sooner, or done something different, you did the best you could. Nobody submits to abuse willingly, nobody. And so those people just don’t get that. And it’s not helpful. **Anne:** In your healing, I love that getting more education was part of your healing process. Can you talk about how your college education helped you heal? **Penny:** It helped in many ways. One, I was a waitress, right? I was financially at the bottom of the food chain. I couldn’t work enough hours in one place to make enough money to live in San Francisco at the time. It was expensive. So I worked two or three jobs at a time to make enough money to pay rent and have groceries and stuff. I was much older than the people around me. I was living in a roommate situation with somebody five years younger than me. And all these people had college degrees, and the people I lived with were pursuing a graduate degree. They had what I looked at as cool and interesting jobs. So I said to myself, I need what they have. I need a college degree. And I started going. ## GOING TO COLLEGE BUILDS SELF ESTEEM **Penny:** And so it did two things for me. Number one is I vowed never again to depend on a man to support myself. I didn’t like living in a roommate situation, I wanted my own home that nobody could take away from me. Because now this was two homes, one I left home at 16. I ran away from home, so that’s one home lost. And second, I left my marriage and left my home and everything in it to my husband, my ex husband. So that was two homes I lost, and I vowed I would never lose another home. So the college degree, first of all, as I started accruing classes, I could only take two or three classes at a time. Because I worked during the day and went to school at night. I started getting A’s and B’s. Going to college built my self esteem. And I went to school with other adults who were also working during the day and going to school at night. Everybody had a different story. Some people were immigrants. Some people just didn’t have the money to go to school during the day. They were married, and now they’re going back to college. So it boosted my self esteem and my value, my thinking about how smart I was. And number two, I was able to work in finance with a college degree, which is a rewarding career that allowed me to make enough money to own a house. And eventually, I remarried and have a partner who shares expenses with me. But had that not happened, I could maintain this lifestyle on my own. And so that was my goal. ## BALANCING EDUCATION & RESPONSIBILITIES **Penny:** And it created the college degree, created financial independence and huge self-esteem for me. And since then, got a master’s degree. And so again, graduating for a second time is huge. It’s a huge honor, thrill, and achievement. And I’m proud of that. It took a lot of work. It took a lot of time, sweat, loss of sleep, and loss of money, right? Because college costs money. It wasn’t free. I also paid for it out of my own income, as opposed to taking out loans, which was pretty important nowadays because student loans can really create financial problems in the future. **Anne:** That’s wonderful. For women who doubt themselves, they’re listening to this podcast and thinking, great, good for you, Penny. You did this. But I’m never going to do that. I have kids, they’re little, or I have this going on. And what type of encouragement might you give them? **Penny:** I would say yes, I was lucky in that or unlucky. I was unable to bear children. I didn’t have children when I went through this. So that was the good luck, bad luck, right? Bad luck. I couldn’t have children. And also good luck, I didn’t have children. I was able to go to school at night. I didn’t have any responsibilities besides getting up for work the next morning. But I would tell them that to find a way or wait until the kids are older and all in school. And see if they can find an online program that they could take maybe one class at a time. ## STEPS TO IMPROVE YOU LIFE AFTER HIDDEN ABUSE **Penny:** And even if it takes you 10 years to graduate college, if you can do one class at a time. And start accruing credits and grades, A’s, B’s and C’s, and improve the C to an A and B to an A. You’ll start feeling such a boost of self-esteem and pride. And say to yourself, I’m a quarter way through college. I’m a halfway through college. I’m three quarters of the way, or even a certificate. Like maybe some colleges offer like certificates. That’s maybe an 18 month program for, I don’t know, dental hygienist or nurses aid or something like that. Some certificates then allow you to move up the food chain financially and get a respectable position. Maybe in a large organization that provides benefits. So you might have to shelve it now if you have little children dependent on you and can’t afford daycare. But when they get to school, you could do that. And I think you could also go to your community and say, Hey, can we do a trade? Can you watch my kids this night so I could go to class? And I’ll watch your kids that night, so you can go to bingo, right? So there’s always a way to do it. It gets easier when the kids get older, I think. But make it your goal, set your mind on it, and don’t stop until you have that goal. Your certificate, your associate’s degree, or your bachelor’s degree. **Anne:** And even if it’s not school, like you said, like a radiologist tech or something like that, or just a job, even if it’s not school. ## BELIEVING IN A BETTER FUTURE **Anne:** I think the thing that breaks my heart the most is when victims feel like, and for good reason. They can’t do anything about their situation. And it’s a fine line between victim blaming, which we do not do here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, and letting victims know that having experienced hidden abuse is not your fault. Nothing about the situation is your fault, and it has nothing to do with you. There are things that you can do that will improve your life. They’re not going to change him. They have nothing to do with him. But you can take tiny steps. I talk about those in [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). There are tiny little baby steps that you can take that are free, that are just minute. But I think that’s why some people accidentally victim blame. Because they realize, yeah right, there’s nothing she can do to stop him from harming her or her kids. She can even get divorced, and he can continue to do that. And so how can we help her make her way to safety? And most people don’t have an answer for that. They can’t figure it out, except you need to do this differently. Rather than realizing that some safety strategies are simply because someone’s never heard it before. And they didn’t know it was possible or they didn’t feel it was possible for them. And so the thing I want to let everyone know is that there is a better life possible for you. I don’t know what that looks like. I don’t know how that’s going to come to be. But I want women to believe it’s possible. ## PROCESSING WHAT I LEARNED **Anne:** Because when women believe safety is possible, they believe they can improve their lives somehow. And believe they can heal trauma from hidden abuse and readily apparent abuse. That is when the magic happens, when they start taking steps to improve their lives. And also start taking steps to get themselves out of a situation that they absolutely did not cause and had nothing to do with them in the first place. **Penny:** Yep, I agree. **Anne:** Is there anything else you wanted to cover? **Penny:** I would love to mention to your listeners that I wrote a memoir of surviving both an abusive marriage and abusive childhood. And how I made a recovery, became successful, happy, and rebuilt my life. It’s called *Redeemed, a Memoir of a Stolen Childhood*, by Penny Lane, and available wherever you buy books. It’s inexpensive, and available at most libraries. So I’d love them to look at that, and I hope to inspire people to make some choices. And to know that I’m nobody special. I’m just a kid from Queens, a runaway from Queens, and that if I could do it, they can do it too. **Anne:** Yeah, thank you. And to hear her story on the podcast was amazing too. She only told a small portion of it, and hearing her whole story and how far she’s come in, her memoir would be awesome. So thank you so much for sharing your wisdom accrued over the years in thinking about this. And it’s so inspiring to talk to victims who have taken something so difficult and made it into something beautiful. ## ENCOURAGEMENT TO MOVE FORWARD **Penny:** Yeah, I think it is possible, and I want to tell your listeners that once you start making the baby steps, to stand up for yourself and change your own life. And to stand up to people who abuse you, oppress you, verbally attack you or denigrate you. You will start feeling a power and strength in your soul that you’ve never felt before. And so I encourage you to start taking those steps. Because it’s the beginning of change. **Anne:** That’s awesome. Thank you so much for talking with me today, Penny. **Penny:** You’re very welcome. I wish all your viewers well and happiness and safety **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [How To Protect Yourself Financially If Your Marriage Is Struggling](https://www.btr.org/financial-abuse-in-divorce/) **Published:** April 22, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Financial abuse in divorce is shockingly common, here are the best ways to protect yourself. **Content:** It’s shocking how common financial abuse in divorce is. Here are the best ways to protect yourself. Divorce is hard. If you’ve been married to a narcissistic abuser, it can feel even more impossible to break free. These individuals often don’t stop their controlling behavior after a divorce is filed. Instead, they escalate their attempts to assert power. One of the most common—and devastating—ways narcissistic abusers do this is through **financial abuse**. If you’re a woman divorcing a narcissist, it’s vital to understand how financial abuse works and how to protect yourself. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take this [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ![What is Financial Abuse in Divorce](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-Is-Financial-Abuse-In-Divorce.webp "What is Financial Abuse in Divorce")## WHAT IS FINANCIAL ABUSE IN DIVORCE? Financial abuse is an abuser’s way of gaining and maintaining power by controlling access to money and resources. During a divorce, this often includes tactics like withholding financial support, hiding assets, or intentionally complicating legal and financial processes. To wreak havoc on their victim’s stability. The abuse doesn’t necessarily stop after divorce—it can take on new, cruel forms, keeping victims entangled in elaborate schemes long after ties should have been cut. ## WHY DO NARCISSISTS USE FINANCIAL ABUSE IN DIVORCE? Narcissistic abusers are motivated by control. They want to undermine your autonomy, manipulate your decisions, and make you dependent on them. Anne Blythe, the founder of Betrayal Trauma Recovery, explains it clearly, “Narcissistic abusers are very calculated. They control where, when, and how they show their true colors. At home, they “lose their temper.” Outside of it, they maintain a polished, socially acceptable image. Financial abuse is yet another method for them to assert power at your expense.” When you understand that financial abuse stems from their need for control—not because of your mistakes or shortcomings—you’re better equipped to set boundaries and protect your well-being. ## FINANCIAL ABUSE IN DIVORCE TACTICS Financial abuse takes many forms. These are some of the most common examples of what narcissists might do to use financial abuse in divorce proceedings to maintain control over your life: ### 1. HIDING INCOME OR ASSETS An abuser may attempt to conceal money, savings accounts, or investments to make it appear as though they have less than they do. This could limit the entitled financial settlement. ![See Financial Abuse in Divorce](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/See-Financial-Abuse-In-Divorce.webp "See Financial Abuse in Divorce")One victim shared, “He told us he was so poor that our church had to pay his mortgage and car payment—almost $2,000 a month. But when my lawyer looked at his financial records, we found out the truth. He spent thousands of dollars on alcohol and other bad stuff, and even putting a lot of money into his retirement account while pretending he had no money.” ### 2. CANCELLING CREDIT CARDS OR WITHHOLDING FINANCIAL SUPPORT It’s not uncommon for abusers to cancel shared credit cards or refuse to pay child or spousal support during the divorce process, leaving victims unable to meet daily expenses. ### 3. OVERWHELMING WITH LEGAL DELAYS Dragging out divorce proceedings is another method of control. By filing unnecessary motions, refusing to negotiate, or missing deadlines, abusers increase costs and prolong the emotional strain to maintain dominance. ### 4. SABOTAGING EMPLOYMENT Some women report that abusers interfere with their ability to work—such as creating emotional stress, harassing them at work, or withholding child care arrangements—to keep them dependent on the abuser’s finances. The abuser uses these tactics to exhaust you, and designed to make you feel stuck. The good news? You **can** overcome them. ### 5. MANIPULATING CHILD VISITATION They might withhold child support payments or use visitation schedules to intentionally disrupt your financial planning. ## WHAT IT FEELS LIKE Post-divorce financial abuse can feel relentless. Another victim of financial abuse after divorce said. “For over two years, I dealt with him purposefully withholding child support and blocking me from accessing what the court decided was mine.” ![Can You Tell There Was Financial Abuse in a Divorce](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Can-You-Tell-There-Was-Financial-Abuse-In-A-Divorce.webp "Can You Tell There Was Financial Abuse in a Divorce")## HOW TO PROTECT YOURSELF FROM FINANCIAL ABUSE Protecting yourself from financial abuse requires awareness, preparation, and boundaries. Here are the most effective actions to take: - **Work With a Trusted Family Lawyer**: Hire an experienced lawyer who understands financial abuse. They can help you subpoena records like bank statements and tax returns, ensuring hidden assets don’t slip through the cracks. Discuss protective measures like restraining orders, mediation, or legally established limits with your divorce attorney. These can stop further harassment or financial tampering. - **Collect and Organize Financial Documentation**: Gather everything—pay stubs, credit card statements, bank records, tax returns, and more. Keep copies in a secure, private location or store them digitally for easy access. - **Open Individual Accounts**: Set up a personal checking and savings account in your name. Immediately update your paycheck direct deposits and remove your abuser’s access to shared accounts. - **Learn Strategy**: It’s imperative that you learn how to think strategically about and communicate with a narcissist. Enroll in [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop to learn more. ](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/ "The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop to learn more. ") - **Seek Expert Emotional Support**: You don’t have to go through this alone. There are resources, like the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast or group sessions, where women who’ve faced similar challenges can offer advice and emotional support. ## FINDING EMPOWERMENT & HEALING FROM FINANCIAL ABUSE DURING DIVORCE Financial abuse is one of the hardest forms of abuse to endure, especially during something as emotional as divorce. However, with the right tools, planning, and support, you can rise above it. Remember, what they do says a lot about them—and nothing about you. Focus on building your own emotional and financial security, so you can live free from their control. If you’re struggling to process or prepare for financial abuse, [Betrayal Trauma Recovery is here to help, join one of our group sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/) for women or explore our workshops to gain valuable skills in navigating financial and emotional abuse. You deserve safety, security, and peace. ![Financial Abuse in Divorce](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Financial-Abuse-In-Divorce.webp "Financial Abuse in Divorce")## TRANSCRIPT: FINANCIAL ABUSE IN DIVORCE: HOW TO PROTECT YOURSELF **Anne:** I have Brenda on today’s episode. She’s going to share her expertise as a financial advisor about financial abuse in divorce. Welcome, Brenda. **Brenda:** Hello, Anne. It’s really good to be here **Anne:** Thank you so much for coming on today. Let’s talk about finances. **Brenda:** Because everyone is always so excited to talk about finances, right? **Anne:** One of the things I want to ask victims is, if you had a billion dollars, would you stay married to him? And the answer is usually no. They’re so afraid because they’re trapped. They don’t know how they’re going to take care of their kids, and they don’t want to work. They didn’t sign up for that. Sometimes they do work, but figuring out how I support a family by myself is so overwhelming. What are the best ways to take financial stuff off the table, so women can make decisions based on their safety, not finances? **Brenda:** I love your question about if you had a billion dollars. I think that’s very clarifying. ## GATHERING FINANCIAL INFORMATION **Brenda:** And that gives an indication of, are they staying in that space, relationship or marriage because they hope things will change? Or is it simplified? Is it solely financial? And then if the answer to the billion dollar question is no, I would not stay here. I would want out. Information is power. So that’s where you start gathering information. And oftentimes, an individual who does leave an abusive relationship might have the means, they might be protected. They might be okay financially. But someone keeps them in the dark, perhaps about their financial situation.So they might not have the financial records, they might not know what their spouse makes. They might be on an allowance. If you don’t have financial information about your family. Or if your family’s financial situation is in shape. It’s hard to know. You’re just in a space of fear because it’s unknown. Will you face financial abuse in divorce? ![How Do You Tell There is Financial Abuse for Divorce](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-Do-You-Tell-There-Is-Financial-Abuse-For-Divorce.webp "How Do You Tell There is Financial Abuse for Divorce")So the first thing is to become knowledgeable, if you can, about your true financial situation. Sometimes it can be overt. They could talk to their spouse about needing access. And depending on whom they’re dealing with, they might get it. Or, if they don’t have any access, then it becomes, let’s call it a treasure hunt. Where you’re picking up bits and pieces of the financial picture to try to understand what your options are, what your situation is. The other piece of that, if you’re considering leaving and if leaving means divorce, is to get smart about what the rules are in your area. I’ve heard it said there are like 33 hundred counties in the United States, something like that. Don’t quote me on the exact number. ## FINANCIAL ABUSE IN DIVORCE: THE IMPORTANCE OF FINANCIAL KNOWLEDGE **Brenda:** And there are just as many ways to be divorced. So rules vary state by state rules and rights. They vary from municipality to municipality. That at least gives people grounding or information data to start figuring out, you know, would they be okay? **Anne:** In [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/), we have a section about finances, and Living Free is not about getting divorced. It’s about seeing reality. In the beginning, when women got to that part, they were like, does she want me to get divorced? And the answer is not yes or no. I’m not trying to push anybody in any direction, but I want them safe. And financial safety is such a huge part of this puzzle. In Living Free, when people talk about physical abuse, many people who listen to this podcast are not necessarily physically assaulted. They’re not being punched, they don’t have bruises. They’re experiencing emotional and psychological abuse and coercion, it’s difficult to see. I want people to start to think about the threats of not having a home, not putting food on the table, not having a roof over your head, not being able to pay for gas to get around, that is a physical threat. This is why getting to physical safety is part of [deliverance from abuse](https://www.btr.org/long-term-effects-of-emotional-abuse-in-relationships/ "deliverance from abuse"). **Brenda:** Sure. It’s your basic fundamental human needs. **Anne:** Exactly, so if they’re threatening, if you divorce me. Then you’ll never be able to take care of yourself. There will be financial abuse in divorce. Are you thinking that in your mind is a physical threat? It’s extremely physical, and I see it as physical abuse. So think, is this threat of physical harm the thing that keeps me from getting to safety? ## STEPS TO FINANCIAL SAFETY **Anne:** Being educated about your finances and what you need is one step toward not just financial safety, but also physical safety. Because if you know you can take care of yourself, that is such a relief. Even if I never got any money from him, I could keep a roof over my head, pay my bills and buy food. That sort of thing. **Brenda:** And it lets people figure out what other information they need and what decisions they need to make. If baseline is, oh, I could… Everyone is different. I could go back to work. In our area. There are programs that help women in abusive situations retrain and get to a living wage. Is that available near you? Do you have enough assets that you have every right to take? Every situation will be different. But unless you have the information, you can’t figure out what your next steps are. ![How Do You Tell There Was Financial Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-Do-You-Tell-There-Was-Financial-Abuse-.webp "How Do You Tell There Was Financial Abuse")**Anne:** When you said talk to him, that made me nervous, because I was like, whoa. You might tip him off, and then he might start hiding money, which is financial abuse in divorce. And he might start manipulating you. So aside from talking to him, what tips do you have for how they can start to find information about their finances? **Brenda:** I’m just going to backtrack to talking to him for a minute. Yes, it could. And everyone knows their relationship and situation better than anyone else. I have had people who will get the information, and they do use a ruse. It will be, I need it to sign Susie up for soccer, or I want to go to this workshop with my sister, and learn how to understand taxes. Can I have our tax return? ## THE ROLE OF CREDIT REPORTS **Brenda:** So it might not be overt, and they still have access to the information. I would say anywhere you can get it. If you can get logins, yes, then you can go online. However, there are flags there, because if you log into the bank account, that bank account or credit card might register the login. They might be set so that there’s an alert. Someone logged into your account at 2:24 this afternoon. You got to be aware that that’s out there too. If. You are in such a situation where you’re cut off from all of that information. So it just as asking someone directly could present danger, know that logging into things could as well. **Anne:** That is a good point, I hadn’t thought of that. I like the ruse idea, that, hey, I’m going to be logging into this thing, can I have the login? Because I’m doing blah blah blah, that is a reason not related to him. Not like, you seem like you’re an abuser. I’m considering leaving you, and I don’t want to experience financial abuse in divorce. Can I have the login? It’s probably the worst idea, I think **Brenda:** You’re exposing yourself. So unfortunately, as you and your listeners all know, you’re walking a fine line, and they’re in a precarious situation, but they also usually know. I know from my own experience, I would often know the things that were going to, like tee up an issue, explosion or anger. Sometimes you don’t. And sometimes that’s another problem, right? It’s out of the blue. ## FINANCIAL ABUSE IN DIVORCE: FACING REALITIES **Brenda:** Hey, I just put cheese on that sandwich. I didn’t think it was going to. …cause World War III. **Anne:** They get unpredictable when they feel like they don’t have control. And so that’s why I’m concerned about like, so many women have told me, oh, he’ll never do that. Never underestimate how much your [narcissist ex doesn’t want to leave you alone. ](https://www.btr.org/narcissist-ex-wont-leave-you-alone/ "narcissist ex doesn't want to leave you alone. ") So many of our clients here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, they’re like, oh, I’m getting divorced, but I’ve got it all ready to go. It’s going to go well. He told me he’ll always take care of me. And then, like a hundred percent of the time, it does not. They experience financial abuse in divorce. And it goes the way he manipulated her to think it’s going to go, it always goes sideways. ![How to Tell There is Financial Abuse During Divorce](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Tell-There-Is-Financial-Abuse-During-Divorce.webp "How to Tell There is Financial Abuse During Divorce")**Brenda:** And the system is built for that. People often going through divorce think, I will be heard, finally. The system will protect me. I trust the system to do its job. It’s not going to. We don’t even know what the job is half the time. If you get all the way to trial, the decisions are being made by a judge who might be late for a dentist appointment. They’re paying half or no attention to your story. And then they’re going to rule. You can’t trust the system, you can know the rules. You can try to figure out what is your bottom line? What’s your worst case scenario? Where are you protected? Where are you exposed? But circling back to like where you can get the information. ## BECOMING YOUR OWN INVESTIGATOR **Brenda:** You turn yourself into a little sleuth. So your own little private investigator, do you get the mail when the mail comes in? Do bills come? You can order a credit report, and you can do that separately. So at least, you know what credit cards exist, and how long they’ve existed. That’s another way that sometimes exposes hidden debts or hidden money. It depends on your situation in your household and where the safe conversations are. And a lot of that is, I would say, catering to the abuser. **Anne:** I would say strategically talking to him rather than catering, but yes. **Brenda:** Yes, so you’re figuring out. What is the information you’re looking for? How can you get it? What is a viable reason for having it that isn’t going to create a situation that’s going to make life more difficult for you? And worsen financial abuse in divorce. **Anne:** Getting a credit report. That’s a good idea, because then you can see the stuff that he’s pulled. Can he have his own separate credit report that she can’t see some stuff on? **Brenda:** Yes. ![How to Tell There is Financial Abuse for Divorce](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Tell-There-Is-Financial-Abuse-For-Divorce.webp "How to Tell There is Financial Abuse for Divorce")**Anne:** Okay, so she wouldn’t be able to see like a credit card that he applied for all by himself. **Brenda:** Depending on the information she has, she might order a credit report for him. **Anne:** Oh, if she knows his information, she could order it. **Brenda:** And the question you ask is what’s the bounce back? Is he going to be alerted that there was a credit pool, but you can find that out before you do it, rather than be surprised after. So it’s just a question to ask. **Anne:** Yeah. ## OVERCOMING OVERWHELM **Anne:** What I have found with victims is that the whole situation is so overwhelming. Trying to make decisions, trying to figure out what to do, is so overwhelming. It feels like you’ve got problem after problem, after problem just piled on top of you. That’s why figuring out [how long it will take to recover from your husband’s emotional abuse](https://www.btr.org/how-long-does-it-take-to-heal-from-emotional-abuse/ "how lond it will take to recover from your husband's emotional abuse") is impossible. And there’s no way to get out from under it. Talking about maybe just doing one thing today to try to reduce the overwhelm when it comes to finances, any ideas there so that it’s not so overwhelming? **Brenda:** So are you asking in the case of someone who plans to leave the relationship? **Anne:** No, here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we only talk about safety. So just so that you are financially safe, so that you feel financially safe. And also so that you know how much money you would need if he divorced you, for example. So this physical and financial safety, what I’m talking about, is just being. educated about your financial situation. How much your house payment is, how much houses cost in your area, how much you could make if you got a job at the library. You know, just basic information. I feel like information leads to emotional, financial, and physical safety when it comes to like, how much do I need to have a roof over my head? And I think regardless of what path you take to safety, you need to know this. There may be financial abuse in divorce. **Brenda:** You’re looking at four major categories. What you have, what you spend, what you owe and what you earn. And anytime you start accumulating that information, it’s also future casting, right? You can then picture yourself perhaps in a different situation or safer situation, because you’ve got a little bit of that information. ## FINANCIAL ABUSE IN DIVORCE: BUILDING A SECURE FUTURE **Brenda:** What can you earn, like you said, what can you earn working at the library? Were you working, and maybe you were a teacher, and your credentials are out of date? What would it take to get those back? So you can be hired. Are schools in the area hiring? Is that something you would want to go back to? So it’s all building information. So you can be more prepared if there is financial abuse in divorce. That would be in the what you earn category. What it takes to live? You can get online, or if the newspaper still exists in your area, get a newspaper. What does an apartment cost? Do you need a car? What would that cost? Do you currently have one? Just starting to put together the pieces of what would it take for you to be secure food, shelter, clothing? ![Seeing the Financial Abuse in Divorce](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Seeing-The-Financial-Abuse-In-Divorce.webp "Seeing the Financial Abuse in Divorce")Is that available to you? What are your options there? Every little bit of additional information you can gather is more than you had before. And hopefully both empowering and putting you in a safer place, just because you are then more informed. **Anne:** You saying that reminds me of this class I had in high school. In high school, we were paired up with a partner. Mine, his name was Tony. I remember this well. And then we drew little slips of paper for, like, your job. Different things about you and you pulled them out. That was your scenario. I was paired up with Tony because he had a car and I didn’t, and we were to go out and find an apartment. that we could afford and buy groceries and figure it all out. ## HIGH SCHOOL CLASS ABOUT FINANCES & GATHERING INFORMATION **Anne:** So we would drive around, and that was so helpful. I was like, whoa, it was at that time that I personally decided to go to college. Because I had a job at the time, and I knew there was no way I could afford this apartment on the job I currently have that I do after school. And it helped me put two and two together as a teenager. But then I’m thinking about the divorce coaching clients we have at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, because many of our coaches are certified divorce coaches. And I remember one of them was talking about one of our clients, who she thought I could never do this. I can never do that. But once they went through all the financial stuff, she realized that all she needed was an extra thousand dollars a month. That was it. Then when she figured that out, she thought, Oh, I can easily get a job that earns me a thousand dollars a month. And I’d still afford my house. And once she had that information, she could move forward on the path she thought was the safest for her. Getting this information is so helpful. And especially if you don’t know what you want to decide, I think getting the information will help you make that decision. ![How Can You Tell There Was Financial Abuse for Divorce](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-Can-You-Tell-There-Was-Financial-Abuse-For-Divorce.webp "How Can You Tell There Was Financial Abuse for Divorce")**Brenda:** When their faces light up and they’re like, Oh, I can do this. I’m going to be okay. And sometimes at first blush, the first pass at looking at what it’s going to cost might not be okay, but at least then they know what it’s going to take. Maybe we can’t be in safety right now, but this is what it will take me to get there. ## PERSONAL FINANCIAL REALIZATIONS **Anne:** You’ve had personal experience with this. Can you talk about how these issues came into play with your own personal experience? [How did infidelity](https://www.btr.org/how-does-infidelity/ "did infidelity") or financial abuse affect you in divorce? **Brenda:** As I went through years and years of my relationship, it became more abusive and more covert. And when I look back now, I can say, Oh my goodness, what was I thinking? Who was that person? And there’s a lot of shame. There’s a lot of guilt. There’s a lot of baggage in the things that became okay over the years. And I didn’t see it until I was away from it. I knew in my heart that it was not okay to be screamed at in the street because of some small thing, right. And called names, and repeatedly verbally abused. But it happened so gradually over time. That it was just my normal. It was what I was used to. And it took starting to step away from the relationship to look back and reframe and see how bad things were. There were times when my husband literally asked other women out in front of me, and then gaslit me. Like, oh no, it didn’t happen that way. You’re making a big deal out of it. ![How To Protect Yourself Financially If Your Marriage Is Struggling](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/F1AfegOLcU4/maxresdefault.jpg) She’s just a business connection or whatever. Which it sounds telling now, like how on earth could you stand there and watch that happen? Go home and make dinner, and put the kids to bed or whatever our normal was. And I think it was just normalized. And the only way I got clear on this is not okay. Was with people, either friends or professionals, who after a while could see and validate. ## FINANCIAL ABUSE IN DIVORCE: SUPPORT & VALIDATION **Brenda:** Oftentimes, we’re told, oh, that’s not a big deal. Oh, he had a bad day. Oh, whatever the excuse is, it’s still an excuse. And it is not okay to diminish people, swear at people, abuse people and hide information. And then with people who are, again, professionals, the therapist who, instead of saying, this is how you accommodate him. Who say, how do we support you? And I see you and the behavior. It’s not normal, rational or acceptable, but sometimes it takes getting permission, I think from others. Who instead of saying, suck it up, you can do this, you just have to keep accommodating. Say you are worthy, whole, valuable, and this is the only life you have. You don’t need to live it this way. Once you start getting more voices who are giving you that support, you can start to see a different reality. You can start to see space where you can have a valuable life. Where you can control your own decisions, where you’re not always walking on eggshells waiting for the next blow up or bad thing to happen. **Anne:** Yeah, I think so many women, at least women, who come to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, have been to a lot of therapy. They’ve asked their friends and family for help, and often, no one has told them, this is abuse. Many of them have experienced financial abuse in divorce. **Brenda:** It’s how you can change, how you can accommodate, how you can change yourself and make it okay. But the answer I think is, it’s not okay. It is abuse, and no one deserves that. ## FINANCIAL DECISIONS & SAFETY **Anne:** Once women realize, once I realized it, through whatever way they do it. Some women learn it from listening to the podcast. There are many ways that you can realize, oh, this is abuse. Then when you’ve got the right pair of glasses to actually see reality for what it is. Then you can start making decisions, that help you start healing from this hidden abuse, because [marriage doesn’t have to be that hard](/marriage-is-hard-work/). Which I think comes into the financial piece. Because once you know the reality of your financial situation, you can start making decisions. I’m thinking of another woman who thought her husband had a ton of money. And so she thought that in divorce, she would get a lot, so she wasn’t worried about getting a job. She wasn’t opposed to getting a job at all. She just didn’t think about it. Then when she found out more, she realized he was in so much debt that it was better for her to not take anything from him and just let him have his debt. And then she was free to build her life the way she wanted, and not be saddled with all the debt he had accrued. And in her situation, that helped her move forward, realizing I’m going to go back to college and start a career. **Brenda:** We are then working through their finances and what’s feasible, and just call it, what does it cost to live? That’s what we’re really figuring out. A woman in an abusive relationship trying to figure out what her options were. And at first blush, she looked at what now she had access to their finances. And could protect herself from financial abuse in divorce. But she looked at what they had. She’s like, oh, I’m going to have half a million dollars. I’m set for life. ## PLANNING AHEAD **Brenda:** Let’s work through this. Let’s do the math and figure out what would it take for her to live for her kids, for their schooling, for their, all the things. And it came up to about a hundred thousand dollars a year. So half a million dollars after taxes, call it $350, 000. That’s going to get you through about three and a half years. So now you have that information, good. You’re going to be okay for three and a half years. And then what? Or, if you don’t want to dip into that, what are your options now? For me, every little bit of information you have adds to the pieces of this puzzle you’re putting together for what your life can look like. What is safety to you? What is acceptable to you? The more information you have, the better you are able to make your own decisions. And protect yourself from financial abuse in divorce. **Anne:** In some cases, I hear about women hiring a forensic accountant, and professionals like that help with their divorce cases. Can you talk more about specialized services like a forensic accountant? What does somebody like that do? Things that women might need to consider when looking at finances. **Brenda:** So a forensic accountant will dig deep into the nitty gritty of the family finances. Sometimes looking for misspending, hidden money, things like that. Sometimes involved in putting values to things. So if you’re dividing things, you got to know what you’re dividing. What is it worth? So a forensic accountant is often worthwhile when there are big financial questions or money might be hidden somewhere. It’s harder and harder to hide money. Because there’s an electronic trail, a paper trail, and tax trails, for almost every transaction we do. ## FINANCIAL ABUSE IN DIVORCE: THE COST OF FINANCIAL INVESTIGATIONS **Brenda:** Unless you’re dealing in cash or trade, it has a trail, so it’s harder to hide. It’s not impossible, but it’s harder. For most people, it’s not necessary if you don’t have a complex situation. Often hired, often overkill, if there’s not a lot of money at stake. So I had a client come to me about a year ago, and she was sure, absolutely sure her husband was hiding money. But when we kept talking about it, the amount she thought he was hiding. It would have cost her so much more money to find it than it was worth. So we’ve got to figure out what it’s worth. Is it millions at stake? Are there tens of thousands of dollars missing? Then it’s probably worthwhile. If we’re talking a thousand dollars, that might have set aside. You will probably pay much more in professional fees to track that down. Than you’re ever going to get back. As you’re approaching all this and trying to get smarter about your financial situation. Whether you’re aware of everything. Some of the good questions to ask yourself are at what cost? What’s the return on that investment? If you get that information, is it $5 or $50,000? How much are you willing to spend to get it? A forensic accountant is expensive. The spouse took out a credit card that his wife wasn’t aware of, and spent it on pornography, and a woman in Eastern Europe he kept sending money to. So he would draw it off the credit card. She was incensed, and she was very hurt. They actually went through the divorce process, and she wanted an accounting of what he had spent. So she wouldn’t be a victim of financial abuse in divorce. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## IS IT COST EFFECTIVE TO INVESTIGATE? **Brenda:** And I completely understand that. They weren’t in a financial situation where they could throw money away freely. But in fact, what he had spent was about $500. It was a lot, but it would have cost so much more to trace that money. It wasn’t worth it. So in that case, she knew about it. They could use it in their discussions. She’s never going to get that money back. He already spent it, but tracing it wasn’t worthwhile. Another woman did go through, it was 10,000 pages of credit card bills they gave her in a hard copy. But we found $250,000 that he had spent on a girlfriend. That was definitely worth it. **Anne:** So, depending on what it is, I feel the same way about alimony, for example. If the lifetime value of spousal support is $80,000, let’s say, like $10,000 for eight years, and you spend $150, 000 getting that. You should think about the numbers here. When dealing with financial abuse in divorce. **Brenda:** Do some math. **Anne:** Yeah, you do some math and figure that out on the flip side of this. I have heard of a few victims who are like, I will start hiding money, and they have the impression, and this may be true. I am unschooled on this part of it. So they’re like, I’m going to start putting money here so they can’t find it, so I’m not going to get stuck paying him alimony. Can you talk about that? Is there a way to legally protect yourself from that? For women who think there is a way to hide the money, can you maybe talk them through this situation? **Brenda:** Maybe, but at what cost? ## LEGAL & ETHICAL CONSIDERATIONS **Brenda:** First of all, is there a legal way to hide money? Not really. In that case, if you’re going through divorce, you’re signing a contract on file with the court. And you’re essentially saying whether it’s mediation, collaborative process, litigation, whatever you go through. Every document I’ve ever seen says I told the truth and disclosed everything. So that’s pretty heavy. If you’re going to hide money and you’re still okay with signing that, and then it’s found out later, you’re not in a good situation. So again, was it worth it? Is there a legal way? There are tricks that people and groups will share about how to stash away a little cash. Sometimes it might be necessary. I’ve seen partners cut their partner off and stop paying the bills out of spite. That is financial abuse in divorce. **Anne:** That happened to me. I was completely cut off from finances, yeah. **Brenda:** If you could be at risk and say physical safety of not being able to have food, shelter and clothing, you’re not able to live safely. Can you set aside money? Yes, the hiding it part is where it gets tricky. If the money is marital, you have a right to it. It is not uncommon. I’m here not working, raising the kids, and I don’t have anything of my own. Yes, you do. You have just as much right. You’re not being paid for your work, but it’s not his retirement account. It is marital. There’s a caveat to everything. If he had it before you got married, that part’s not marital. But anything earned or saved during a marriage, unless it’s a gift or inheritance, because again, caveat, is marital, you have a right to it. ## FINANCIAL ABUSE IN DIVORCE: DIFFERENT LAWS IN DIFFERENT STATES **Brenda:** It’s not like you’re hiding and stealing if you’re taking money to ensure you can live. **Anne:** In my case, I had paid $100,000 of his school debt when we got married. That was pre-marital assets in my case, because I was a teacher for 10 years and saved well and a bunch of stuff. And I did not get that back, because I apparently commingled it. Then my grandma, when she died, had given me a small sum of money. You’re saying if it’s an inheritance, it’s yours. During mediation, instead of saying it’s the law, I’ll give it to her. He said, I know how much she loved her grandma, and I would never want to take that away from her. As if he was just being so nice. Instead of me realizing in that moment, he was just trying to look good when he had to give it back, no matter what. **Brenda:** He had to give it back if it stayed in your name. If you put it in a joint bank account, not the case. **Anne:** It was in a joint bank account. So maybe he was “being nice.” **Brenda:** Yeah. **Anne:** He wasn’t. **Brenda:** Exactly, he was looking good. **Anne:** For whatever reason he wanted to look good. **Brenda:** I guess this is the difference between a financial advisor who you might have to help plan your retirement and what have you. And a certified divorce financial analyst, because divorce has its own money roles. They are actually different partnerships, depending on the state you live in, and can have their own money rules. Some recognize it like a common law marriage, even if you’re not married. Others don’t, and your rights vary depending on where you live. **Anne:** Yeah. ## EMPOWERMENT & RIGHTS **Anne:** That’s good to know. With your financial experience, what would you say to women skeptical about their financial future, victims of financial abuse in divorce? **Brenda:** I would say you have value and rights, it is in your best interest to know them. Sometimes you’re not going to like what you learn, but you’ll have the information you need to start seeing a different future. To take control of your own situation. Even if it’s a little thing at a time, if you are not safe, and that doesn’t feel good. And you’ve been gaslit or brainwashed to believe you don’t have rights to have financial information. Everything in the marriage belongs to the abuser, not to you. You have been told you’re lucky to be there. I would say you’re probably not lucky to be there. The more you surround yourself with the support of people who tell you that you have value, that you have worth. As challenging or huge as moving out of that space might seem. Even a little step, like a little crack in the situation, can then become bigger. Hopefully, you’ll find yourself in a space where you are safe. Whether it’s married or not in a relationship, where you are safe and valued. Often in an abusive situation, you are made to feel small, and as though you owe something to the abuser. You don’t, you are complete, whole and valuable. You don’t have to give in to financial abuse in divorce. **Anne:** Thank you so much for coming on today’s episode and sharing your thoughts. I appreciate it. Her website is bridgingdivorcesolutions.com. Brenda, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me today. **Brenda:** Thank you, I appreciate it. I appreciate the work you do. It’s incredibly important. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Warning Signs Your Husband Is Dangerous - Susan's Story With Dave Cawley](https://www.btr.org/signs-your-husband-might-kill-you/) **Published:** April 29, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Are you wondering if your husband might be dangerous? Learn more now. **Content:** If you’re searching for warning signs your husband is dangerous it’s important to know that many victims “only” experience emotional abuse until . . . Anne Blythe, founder of Betrayal Trauma Recovery, talks to Dave Cawley, host of the *[Cold](https://thecoldpodcast.com/)* podcast series, about the Susan Powell case, empowering victims to protect themselves and seek safety now. > **This Is the First Episode With Dave Cawley** > Warning Signs Your Husband Is Dangerous – Susan’s Story With Dave Cawley (THIS EPISODE) > *[Patterns To Look Out For In Your Relationship](https://www.btr.org/is-my-husband-abusing-me/ "Patterns To Look Out For In Your Relationship")* ![How to Deal with Husband Who Hurt You Emotionally](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/how-to-deal-with-husband-who-hurt-you-emotionally.webp "How to Deal with Husband Who Hurt You Emotionally")## ABUSE DOESN’T ALWAYS MEAN PHYSICAL BATTERING Many abuse victims do not have proof. They don’t have bruises or broken bones to show the world that their partner is abusing them. Instead, their bruises and brokenness are hidden beneath the surface. They can be found in the way they doubt their own worth, in the way they feel they are responsible for their husband’s choices. **Other forms of abuse, just as serious as physical battering, include:** - Emotional abuse - Psychological abuse - Financial abuse - Sexual abuse - Sexual Coercion - Spiritual abuse - Covert physical abuse Like many women in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community, Susan Powell was not a victim of physical battering, as far as experts can tell. But she suffered deeply from the abusive behaviors of her husband, Josh. [To see if you’re a victim of this type of abuse, take our Emotional Abuse Quiz.](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/) ## SUSAN POWELL’S STORY TEACHES US THAT VICTIM-BLAMING HARMS Questions and statements like: - If it was so bad, why didn’t she leave? - It takes two to tango - Why did you push his buttons? - Why don’t you work harder on making sure he’s happy? - He’s not hitting you, are you sure it’s abuse? Even after Susan Powell’s ten year disappearance, many still blame her subtly by asking, “If it was so bad, then why did she stay?” As Dave says, the societal focus should be on why so many men are abusing women, not why women are staying in abusive relationships. ![What to Do when Your Husband is Trying to Kill You](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/what-to-do-when-your-husband-is-trying-to-kill-you.webp "What to Do when Your Husband is Trying to Kill You")## SUSAN POWELL’S STORY TEACHES US THAT ANYONE CAN BE A VICTIM Josh Powell was diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder. However, even those who are not diagnosed with NPD can be narcissistic abusers. The mental and emotional toll that narcissistic abuse takes on victims is extreme. Becoming educated about narcissistic abuse. And protecting themselves through effective boundaries can help women find safety from this insidious form of abuse. ## 3 TIPS FOR SEEKING SAFETY FROM ABUSE 1. **Trust your gut.** If it feels like something is off, it probably is. Don’t ignore that feeling. 2. **You have more support than you realize.** A lot of times, we don’t recognize how strong and wide our network is. Reach out, you might be surprised. 3. **If you leave, you’re going to be okay.** It’s scary to leave, but it’s not as scary as you probably think, once you’re on the other side. Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group meets multiple times a day and offers women a community of supportive, validating, and knowledgeable women to help them find safety from betrayal and abuse. [Join today and share your story, process your trauma, ask hard questions, and vent painful feelings.](https://www.btr.org/group/) ![What Do I Do if My Husband is Threatening to Kill Me](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-Do-I-Do-If-My-Husband-Is-Threatening-to-Kill-Me-1.webp "What Do I Do if My Husband is Threatening to Kill Me")## TRANSCRIPT: WARNING SIGNS YOUR HUSBAND IS DANGEROUS **Anne:** I recorded this interview in 2019. At a very intense time during my ex-husband’s post-separation abuse. I interviewed Dave Cawley, host of the cold podcast. And I want to give a shout out. He was so willing to listen to me back in 2019. So thank you from the bottom of my heart for using the interview to learn more about my story and other victims. I genuinely felt like he cared about me personally and that he cared for all victims. So thank you to Dave Cawley and all men who are standing up for abuse victims. Dave is a graduate of the University of Utah’s journalism school. And then went to work as a field reporter in Salt Lake City. Dave joined KSL. And then in 2018, he moved into a new role as executive producer of digital content. On December 14th, 2018. [KSL and Dave launched the podcast series *Cold*.](https://thecoldpodcast.com/) ![What to Do when Your Husband Hurt You](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/what-to-do-when-your-husband-hurt-you.webp "What to Do when Your Husband Hurt You")The first season focused on the unsolved disappearance of Susan Powell. That story was close to Dave because he reported on Susan’s suspected murder from the beginning in December 2009. And continues to dig for new details. *Cold* reached number one on the Apple podcast chart on the day of its release. Welcome, Dave. **Dave:** Thanks, Anne. I really appreciate being on. ## MY PERSONAL CONNECTION TO SUSAN’S STORY **Anne:** The story of Susan Powell broke the year after I was married. I got married in 2008. And so in 2009, when Susan first went missing, I closely followed the story. I had a sense at that time that something was wrong in my own marriage. I wouldn’t say at the time that I could comprehend what was happening, or even verbalize that my husband was abusive. Something about Susan’s story was calling to me. On the day Josh murdered his sons and proved himself a murderer, I was at a family dinner with my parents and siblings, and also my husband. I said, out loud, “If anything happens to me. He killed me.” I wanted to make sure he heard me say that to everyone because I thought that would help keep me safe. Six years later, in 2015, he was arrested for domestic violence. And that is what helped me understand what was happening. From your research of Susan Powell. Can you talk about how she felt at the beginning of her relationship? ![What to Do if Your Spouse Threatens to Kill You](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/what-to-do-if-your-spouse-threatens-to-kill-you.webp "What to Do if Your Spouse Threatens to Kill You")**Dave:** Yeah, I can speak specifically to the circumstances of Josh and Susan’s marriage, because I had a unique opportunity to research and study those. Certainly, I don’t know the totality of Susan’s mind at any given point in time. All I can go on are the clues she left us, what she wrote in her journal. What she wrote to her friends in emails, messages, things like that. That we drew in to use for the cold podcast. But I will say Susan and Josh met when Susan was barely out of high school. She was very young. And if you look at Susan at that time, she was a great student. ## SUSAN POWELL’S STORY TEACHES US THAT ABUSIVE MEN WANT TO BE THE CENTER OF THEIR WIFE’S UNIVERSE **Dave:** She was very hardworking, going to cosmetology school easily. In my opinion, she could have walked into any of the colleges around Washington where she lived at the time. But Josh quickly, after they started dating, isolated her. And he made her life all about him and their relationship. He did it very subtly. He used the creation almost of a mythology for their relationship. That this was a very almost fated kind of thing. That they met and fell in love. And they’re so about each other. One another when in reality, from I think an objective point of view. You can look and say, well, it was all about how she served him, not how he served her. He was not doing things in their relationship that were advancing her best interests. He wasn’t going out of his way to do things to make her happy. But because of her age and because of, I think some of her experience dating as a teenager, when she met Josh and he talked the big talk. She kind of fell into the idea of being in love and in this relationship. They get married quickly. So within six months of beginning to date, they’re married. ![What to Do when Your Spouse Threatens to Kill You](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/what-to-do-when-your-spouse-threatens-to-kill-you.webp "What to Do when Your Spouse Threatens to Kill You")And it’s pretty clear from the get go that things are not good in their relationship, because Josh can’t keep a job. And every time he loses a job, it’s the fault of the employer. It’s never his fault. Something keeps him down. And so Susan, from the beginning, has to work multiple jobs to try to make ends meet. And help Josh get in a better place where he can hold a job. **Anne:** I mean, when do you notice the signs your husband might kill you? ## WARNING SIGNS OF A DANGEROUS HUSBAND **Dave:** They have to move in with family several times, which is not a good situation. As we later learned, her father-in-law is a very unsavory individual, to put it mildly. Then it gets more complicated when children enter the mix. Josh and Susan move away from Washington in part to get away from Josh’s dad. And some bad things and make a fresh start. So Susan at that point, in my opinion, still doesn’t see the origin of the problems. And thinks, hey, if we just get away from Washington, if we get to Utah. And we get away from the complicated family dynamics, then Josh and I can make it work. **Anne:** She still doesn’t see signs her husband might kill her. But almost no one does until it’s too late.. **Dave:** No sooner do they get here than it’s the same dynamic, right? Susan’s bread-winning. She can hold a job, [her husband is holding her back](https://www.btr.org/husband-is-holding-me-back/ "her husband is holding her back").But they conceive their first child. And that is when Susan starts to see the problems, because Josh as a father is not helpful. That is in 2005, and then it’s a downhill slide from there for a couple of years. After they have their second child, Brayden, Josh disconnects. And the conflict comes out into the open. Josh has been dismissive of Susan for many years. But once she starts sticking up for herself, she has things that matter to her that are of value to her in her life, her religion, and her standards. ## SUSAN POWELL’S STORY TEACHES US THAT VICTIMS NEED SUPPORT **Dave:** And Josh is unwilling to practice those himself, but also to allow her to practice her own religion. Do things like pay her tithing, attend church with her, things like that. And he’s also actively undercutting her to the children, talking about how bad it is that mom goes to church, and how they don’t need to go to church with mom. And don’t listen to stuff mom says. Which I think any rational person in a marriage would say is not an okay dynamic. That is when I think Susan starts recognizing that things are not good. She starts dropping hints to friends that she feels in danger, but then when other people tell her hey, you’re in a bad situation. You need to get out of here. She will justify why she’s staying in. ![You Aren't The Rehab Facility For His Unhealhty Behaviors](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/you-arent-the-rehab-facility-for-his-unhealhty-behaviors.webp "You Arent the Rehab Facility for His Unhealhty Behaviors")**Anne:** Well, having been in that situation myself. It’s really a situation where you have two bad options. Staying in the marriage is bad, and divorce will also be bad. You’re trying to figure out which bad scenario is the least bad one. I was struck in the podcast. Susan did what she was supposed to do as a victim of abuse. She reached out for help. But clergy told her that if you both work on your issues, this can be worked out. She wasn’t told her husband is dangerous. Since we have over 150,000 women in our community. I hear women report this all the time. Instead of recognizing his abuse they get their [abusive husband into therapy](https://www.btr.org/your-abusive-husbands-therapist/) or they’re told to go to couple therapy. Can you talk more about what happened when Susan went for help? **Dave:** That’s tough. Let me speak to some of the circumstances with Josh and Susan and counseling, and we’ll get there. ## CLERGY & COUNSELING DIDN’T KEEP HER SAFE **Dave:** Because conversations with clergy are confidential. We’re pretty limited in knowing exactly what kind of advice Josh and Susan received. But Susan did write in a couple of places about going to see her bishop, both with Josh and on her own. You can imagine this is a marriage at a very low point. They’re at each other’s throats. And yeah, Susan is argumentative. I mean, she’s not one to passively just go with the flow. So when she’s unhappy, she’s venting about it. Josh points at her as she’s the one causing all this conflict. **Anne:** What she’s “complaining about,” and I have that in air quotes, is his abuse. **Dave:** Right. **Anne:** Right. **Dave:** She’s not identified it as such at this point, right? **Anne:** He’s basically saying, I’m mad at her for being mad at me about my abuse. **Dave:** Right, in so many words, yeah. **Anne:** Yeah. **Dave:** Every indication I have is that the clergy they spoke to said. “We are not qualified to be your marriage counselor, so let’s connect you with services.” So that’s how Susan originally gets involved with marriage counseling. It’s 2008, and Josh refuses to go. The counselor she was talking to in 2008 identified and said you are being abused. **Anne:** Oh, okay. **Dave:** And this is when Susan first understood that because her dad was in town and actually went to the session with her. Chuck Cox, Susan’s dad, talks about how afterwards she turned to him and said, Do you think that’s true? Am I being abused? And her dad’s going, yes. **Anne:** Yes, but she doesn’t see signs that her husband may harm her. ## SIGNS YOUR HUSBAND IS DANGEROUS: EXPLICIT CONTENT **Dave:** I think too, Anne, what happens is specifically in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. You have lay clergy, and oftentimes, especially at the local level, these people are your neighbors. It can feel very close, I think even for some of those members of clergy. To be in the business of the personal lives of their neighbors, and that’s uncomfortable. ![is My Husband Capable of Killing Me](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/is-my-husband-capable-of-killing-me.webp "is My Husband Capable of Killing Me")And I don’t want to say there’s not accountability in the same way that maybe a professional clergy. But it’s a little different in that religious community. Just because of the way those relationships exist. Sometimes between the people approaching, a bishop or stake president, or something like that, as opposed to other faiths. **Anne:** Yeah, and many times clergy, rather than tell the victim, this is an abuse situation, your husband is dangerous, you need to get to safety. They focus on helping him. Like to reactivate someone into the church or to repent. But they don’t realize it’s keeping a victim in proximity to the abuse. I listened to the cold podcast, and surprisingly how pornography played such a large role in developing Josh’s character. Can you talk about the role that it played in his abuse before the murder? **Dave:** Yeah, this is a very interesting topic for discussion, because we have a pretty good record thanks to the divorce filings for Josh’s parents going back into the mid 90s. So Josh is a teenager, and his mom divorces his dad. In part because Josh’s dad did a lot of things that were not good. There’s some pretty good indication in those filings, that he introduced his kids to explicit content when they were young, both sons and daughters. ## JOSH POWELL’S SECRET DOUBLE LIFE **Dave:** Because of that, we know Josh was exposed to explicit material at an early age, by his own disclosure later to a psychologist. He is arrested at one point for stealing explicit magazines from a convenience store. You see early on that this is part of his life. It’s not until after Susan disappears, and police seize computers out of their home. And those computers are scoured for evidence, we see what happened in the meantime. [After he and Susan were married, they found many very concerning images on Josh’s computer that had been deleted for the most part.](https://www.btr.org/cheating-husband-says/) They were in what’s called free space, but Josh regularly watched it on the computer. And Susan talked a lot to her friends in messages and things that Josh was protective of his computer. She was not allowed to use his computer except to do his chores, scanning his papers, receipts, and things. ![What Happens if Your Husband Threatens to Kill You](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/what-happens-if-your-husband-threatens-to-kill-you.webp "What Happens if Your Husband Threatens to Kill You")She wanted to get on the internet and Facebook and things like that. He would not allow her to do that on his computer. She had to have her own computer, which he was unwilling to pay for. So that protective behavior, I think, personally speaks to Josh knowing that there’s material on this computer that he does not want her to find. I know there are people in law enforcement who believe the catalyst for Susan’s disappearance and murder may have been her locating something like that, calling Josh’s attention to it. And saying this is a step too far. We’re done. That’s speculation, but I think Josh’s viewing of it played a role, especially because Susan writes a lot about how he wouldn’t touch her. **Anne:** This abuse and secret explicit materials use might be signs your husband is dangerous. ## SUSAN POWELL’S STORY TEACHES US TO PAY ATTENTION TO OUR GUT **Dave:** He wouldn’t show the normal types of affection that you would expect in a relationship like that. He would not hold her hand. He wouldn’t kiss her. When they were physically intimate, which was rare, he did not view it as beautiful and shared. It was very clinical. I’m trying not to be too graphic here. I want to be careful to protect Susan’s privacy. When they had intercourse, it was not something that was a beautiful and affirming experience for Susan. It was almost, I think, traumatic in itself because of the way he insisted on it being very quick and clean and then over. **Anne:** Women in our community assume their husbands are not viewing explicit material because they attend the temple or go to church. Because they’re under the impression that the relationship is a certain way, and they’re not being given all the information they need to make a decision. Interesting, so that form of coercion is, I would say, the most common. But it’s still coercion. I don’t think explicit material users understand that in and of itself is a form of abuse. Just thinking about Susan, how would she feel about this? Didn’t enter Josh’s mind. **Dave:** No. **Anne:** He wasn’t concerned about Susan at all. All of these are red flags that her husband might kill her. **Dave:** Not in the least, yeah. Continuing through their marriage, Josh and Susan moved from Washington to Utah to escape Steve Powell. But Steve Powell continues to groom his son well into adulthood through these long phone conversations. Steve Powell was dysfunctional in his views on intimacy. He wrote more than 2, 000 pages of explicit journals detailing his desire for his daughter-in-law, Susan. ## SIGNS YOUR HUSBAND MIGHT HARM YOU: EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Dave:** And so he is interested in poisoning his son’s marriage on the belief that it will allow him to spark his relationship with Susan. Which was never going to happen. Right, but because of that, Josh is being fed this constant stream of negativity. If you look at some of Josh’s writings, going back even into his teenage years, he struggled. Even dating, before he met Susan, with being close. Just being in physical proximity to a girl or a woman, made him uncomfortable. ![What to Do if Husband Threatens to Kill You](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/what-to-do-if-husband-threatens-to-kill-you-.webp "What to Do if Husband Threatens to Kill You")And when he takes that dysfunction into his marriage with Susan, it’s Susan’s fault. Because he tells his dad, Susan wants it all the time. By the time their marriage really bottoms out, they are maybe having intercourse a couple of times a year, if that. And so you can imagine, Susan feels as a 27 year old woman, a 28 year old woman, unfulfilled. By a husband who will show her no care in daily life, no care in the bedroom. Seems repulsed by the thought of giving her a kiss or holding her hand. And going back to your earlier point about not recognizing it as abuse. Yeah, abuse carries a lot of connotation in our society. We expect it to be hitting, to be shouting, you know, slamming of doors. Well, I think it’s arguable that if you are in a relationship with somebody and you are withholding and playing these kinds of mind games, that is a form of abuse. And unless we can call it such, we can’t address it. ## ABUSERS “TURN TABLES” TO PLAY THE VICTIM ROLE **Anne:** Yeah, right before my ex’s arrest, he started telling me that I was unattractive. And that he never thought I was attractive, and that he hated me. I was like, whoa. And he would say, I don’t love you, but I love the kids. So finally I was like, well, then you should leave. **Dave:** Yeah. **Anne:** And then he wouldn’t leave. And I was like, okay, this is weird. You think I’m ugly, you don’t want to have intercourse with me. and you hate me, but you won’t leave? It was so nonsensical. It was insane. All right, so we’ve talked about the psychological abuse Susan endured. We’ve talked about how she didn’t recognize it, I didn’t recognize the signs that my husband may harm me either. I want to talk about Josh’s behavior after the murder. It’s like many abusers after divorce. They blame their situation on their victim. They continue to lie, hide and manipulate people. And in Josh’s case, he had this huge crime, and all these people looking at him and reporters trying to get to the truth. ![What to Do if Your Husband Threatens to Kill You](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/what-to-do-if-your-husband-threatens-to-kill-you.webp "What to Do if Your Husband Threatens to Kill You")In my case, nobody’s been trying to investigate. My ex is still an attorney, he’s still doing his job, and he’s still lying about me. So, his current congregation thinks he’s this amazing saint, and his crazy ex-wife has done him wrong. and they feel so bad that he’s this victim. So even in this case with Josh Powell, where there’s a murder and someone is missing, and all these police are investigating. You’ve got all these reporters, and Josh is still walking around. Lightning didn’t strike him, a bus didn’t hit him, he’s not in jail. He’s got his kids. He’s still functioning. ## SUSAN POWELL’S STORY TEACHES US THAT ABUSERS REJECT ACCOUNTABILITY **Anne:** I mean, he’s not well, obviously. But he’s still free. Why do you think society is so bad at holding these guys accountable? Even though there are he is dangerous. **Dave:** I think, in a legal sense, and especially in the United States here, we have this concept of innocent until proven guilty. That is important to remember when we’re talking about someone being accused of something criminally. But a marriage is a civil contract, not criminal. So you are married to somebody who is abusing you. You seek a divorce, and through the divorce. The mind games that manipulative men, in particular, can work that system to their advantage. Or to try to hurt or undercut their former spouse. It doesn’t rise to that criminal level. I think many people in broader society don’t want to feel like they are passing a judgment on somebody without proof or evidence. ![What to Do when Husband Threatens to Kill You](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/what-to-do-when-husband-threatens-to-kill-you.webp "What to Do when Husband Threatens to Kill You")The very nature of this kind of abuse, that manipulation, that financial control, that emotional abuse, is that there is no trail of evidence. And even if you could take it to a police officer or prosecutor, they would say, well, what is the crime? There’s nothing in criminal statute that this violates. So that person is able to go back into society and say, well, look, I’m a good guy. I didn’t do anything wrong. **Anne:** I’m the victim. My ex says, “She kicked me out of the house for no reason. And then she wouldn’t talk to me.” He doesn’t say, because I sprained her fingers and had a no contact order from the courts. He doesn’t tell people that part. **Dave:** We need to, in a cultural sense, in the broadest way possible, confront our own perceptions on abuse. And start retraining ourselves. ## SIGNS A HUSBAND MAY KILL: PEOPLE DON’T BELIEVE YOU **Dave:** Me telling the Susan Powell story resulted in more people than I can even tell you reaching out to share their own personal experiences. Even talking to you here, Anne, about your relationship, I think, is in a similar vein. Many women are dealing with this right now. And have never found someone who they felt safe, being very candid about what they’ve gone through. And I think many of us hold these personal experiences close. We don’t share them. There’s shame attached to it. There’s fear of not being believed. What I personally learned was that when people are willing to share those stories with me. When women say, hey, your podcast sounded like my life. The most important thing I can do is express belief and empathy. And say, I’m so grateful that you’re safe. I’m sorry, you have gone through or are going through this horrible circumstance. I believe you. And that opens conversation. I strongly feel that is the path forward. In trying to address why abusive men can just walk away cleanly. And say, “Well, hey, I did nothing wrong.” ![Signs Your Husband Is Dangerous](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/agzTN-9Qpd0/maxresdefault.jpg) **Anne:** Or, “You know, it didn’t work out somewhere. It just doesn’t work out.” People just dismiss it even though there may be signs her husband might harm her. That’s why I created this community to be that safe place. Because other places are like, oh, all guys use it. Why are you so worried about it? So here, at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we are all about safety, safety, and more safety. We will help you figure out what is going on. And we recommend you get to safety quickly. While you don’t know what’s going on. And then, from a safe place, you can objectively observe and find out what’s happening. ## HE MANIPULATED HER **Anne:** I get the impression that Susan didn’t know about the explicit content use until the very end. Was there any indication that she knew about it early on? **Dave:** I doubt she did. I mean, like I mentioned, there is speculation by some in law enforcement that maybe she discovered something and that was a catalyst. I’m under the impression that Susan had no clue Josh was viewing explicit materials. **Anne:** I’ve always wondered why reporters don’t include the alleged perpetrators pornography use when reporting crime or murder. If it was a factor? I think that would highlight how it is an element of domestic abuse. And to watch for signs the signs he might kill you. **Dave:** And to the point about why do you not hear it reported, it’s a difficult spot. Especially early in reporting, we often work from a limited amount of information. The Powell case is unique in that in putting together the cold podcast, we had access to a lot of information that was not available to us when Susan first disappeared. Material gained through search warrants and subpoenas, and things like that. So, when I sat down to tell Susan’s story, I was more informed than I think many of us were at the time she disappeared. About what was going on behind the scenes. Say somebody came forward and said, yeah, you know, Josh goes on the internet and looks at explicit material. You need a nexus that ties it together. And without all the context of Josh’s journals and Susan’s journals, and all the stuff with these recordings, it’s difficult to put that together in a way where you see the broader context. ## SUSAN POWELL’S STORY TEACHES US THAT YOUR HUSBAND’S SECRETS CAN KILL YOU **Dave:** So I’m grateful that with the rise of podcasting and some of this longer form of investigative reporting. We’re better able to make those associations clear than you’ll ever see on the 10 o’clock news. Think when you look at Josh as somebody who’s leading a double life, he clearly did not ever allow Susan to see his true self. Josh was a narcissist, and I say that in the sense of a psychologist actually said you have narcissistic personality disorder. He created a persona. The persona of Josh as a young man, and the older he grew, the more solidified that persona became. And the inner core, the true identity of Josh Powell, was not something that anybody ever would touch because of that outer shell. Especially his wife. And so, yes, he will never concede to her that he’s viewing it. That he’s taking all these steps. Which, in my opinion, were preparatory for killing her and cashing in on her life insurance. Others around her were not interpreting warning signs he might use lethal violence. The exterior was about, he’s the expert at everything. Nobody’s smarter than me. My kids are the best kids and can do no wrong, because they’re extensions of me. It’s a very interesting thing, I think, with men who are abusive in this way. It’s one of the signs he might do something drastic. That they, you know, similarly tend to show some of these narcissistic traits where they have this secret life. They protect that secret life to the exclusion of everything else. And I think part of what creates this danger, right, is the idea that when you are exposed, when say a spouse discovers this, now this will collapse that entire world. ## IF HE PROTECTS HIS SECRETS, IT’S A SIGN HE MAY KILL YOU **Dave:** And as a man exhibiting this kind of narcissism, when you face that reality of your world collapsing. I’ll just make this person who discovered it, who sees the real me, go away. I think that’s part of why we see violence, and especially homicide, come into play in those moments. **Anne:** Yeah, I think so too. I discovered my husband’s use 18 months after we had married in the temple, and he had promised me he didn’t use explicit material, so he had been lying to me and manipulating me the whole time. That’s when I got really scared because that’s a sign of something very serious. I think it’s interesting that he went into “recovery”. And when I say that, I mean in quotes. He became like the model addict in recovery. And we were actually public speaking about his amazing recovery, and I didn’t know that he was still lying and manipulating me. I thought I knew [how to deal with an addict husband](https://www.btr.org/how-to-deal-with-an-addict-husband/ "how to deal with an addict husband"). So near the end, I was like, this is a sham. You are a fake and not in recovery. You haven’t been, and you’re speaking to people as if you are. And that is when the violence escalated. Escalating violent is a sign he might harm you. I was like, I’m not speaking with you anymore, and quit my job. I was the PR director of a popular addiction recovery practice. And so I quit my job and I was like, no, I am done. In the addiction recovery space, which you may or may not be familiar with. When someone enters recovery, everything in that family becomes about him and his recovery. Let’s make sure he’s okay. Let’s treat him like he has cancer. I believe that’s actually a continuation of the abuse. ## IF HE HAS NO EMPATHY, THAT’S A RED FLAG **Anne:** I think they should say, okay, she’s a victim of abuse here. She’s been a victim of abuse for 10 years when she didn’t know about his use. Now we know that explicit materials use is a sign that he may use violence against women, because that’s all it is these days. Let’s treat her like she has cancer, and let’s make sure she’s safe. And then let’s wait at a safe distance to see if he is a safe person to be around. That’s not what happens right now. When a couple goes into clergy and says he’s using they’re like, oh, okay. Well, wife, you support him, be supportive. And I’m like, what? No, no, no. That should never happen, because you don’t know what else is going on. Like get her to safety. I mean, I can’t tell you how many women spend tons of time reading books about addiction. How can I support him? How can I make sure I don’t shame him in and on and on? And he’s like, Great. It’s all about me. The relationship’s all about me. Meanwhile, she can’t live a life, because the whole life is about him and his addiction. They have to adjust everything to fit this new reality, and it’s, as you can tell, really making me mad. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## SUSAN’S STORY TEACHES US THAT THERAPY DOES NOT STOP ABUSE & MANIPULATION **Dave:** With Susan and Josh, he is unwilling to go when Susan is in therapy. Susan writes repeatedly that she hopes that if she goes, and he sees it improves her. He will then be willing to go. I want to go back in time and sit down with Susan and say, Susan, you do not understand the way your husband’s brain works, that is never going to happen. The only time he ever goes to therapy is when she confronts him with, I’m leaving. Susan is the meal ticket and is doing child care, bread winning, and taking care of the house. If Susan leaves, Josh will have to work. He’ll also have to explain why his wife left, right? He reluctantly goes along, does the minimum necessary in that situation to keep her on the hook. The idea of being supportive of your husband, you’re working together, he’s going to see how it improves me. Josh has no interest in improving. And I think many of these men who are psychologically abusing their spouses, who are violating that trust, are not interested in self improvement for self improvement’s sake. **Anne:** When people say, well, he’s going to therapy, I’m like, but why is he going to therapy? Like, is it because he genuinely wants to change? From your podcast, we can see why it was difficult for the law to stop Josh Powell, who was under investigation for murder. Because they were trying to gather evidence. So what hope do victims like me and my community have of getting help when it’s “just emotional abuse.” I mean, it’s so scary that they’re not seeing how dangerous he is. **Anne:** What would you say to Susan before the murder? Let’s say five years before. ## WHY DID SHE STAY? THE FOCUS SHOULD BE, WHY DO MEN ABUSE WIVES? **Dave:** Susan dealt with a lot, I think, of self doubt. She knew something was wrong in her marriage, and took steps to begin extricating and protecting herself. And in my opinion, there is no clear answer why she stayed in that relationship. I hear that a lot, right? Why did she stay? Which in my opinion is the wrong focus. It should be on why do we have an abusive man perpetrating on his wife? But for the sake of argument, if we take this question of why Susan did stay, many people want to blame the church. People that maybe aren’t from the community, or even who are, who say, well, clearly she was deluded by her religion. You have other people who want to blame it on X, Y, Z. The truth is, I think there are many influences in any of these situations. Susan feels some fear because Josh has made, I think, some threats to her in probably some very subtle ways, right? She expresses a fear that I’m riding my bike to work on 5600 West in West Valley City, this busy road, and how easy would it be to have an “accident?” When her father-in-law writes in his journal that Josh has mentioned, boy, he sure wishes a car would get hit Susan. So, I’m looking at that saying, yeah, he’s probably told her as much, right? I wish a truck would just hit her. And she’s thinking, oh my gosh, my husband wants me dead. So you have fear. Fear is definitely not a good sign. Susan goes to the temple and prays about it. And she has a feeling that she needs to stay. So you have all these contrary forces, emotions. ## IF YOU THINK YOUR HUSBAND COULD KILL YOU, TRUST YOUR GUT **Dave:** What I would tell Susan is, A, trust your gut. Clearly, you were concerned enough to feel a fear, and then you basically talked yourself out of it. Second, you have more support than you realize. Susan had a network of friends and family who we see after she disappears, catalyze and become this amazing force to advocate for her and her story. And they’re still doing that now, 10 years later. That’s to me amazing. And I don’t think she recognized how strong her support network was. The other thing I would tell her is, Susan, if you leave, you’re gonna be okay. Because, living with somebody who, year after year, undercuts you. And robs you of your positive self image, who makes you feel like dirt, like you’re unlovable. Makes the idea of going out into the world by yourself with your two children and trying to support yourself. I have the benefit of looking at Susan from outside of that relationship and seeing somebody who is incredibly hard working, who is bright, who loves her boys. Who has plenty of admirers, who has many friends, who makes friends easily, right? And even for somebody who doesn’t have all those things, it’s scary to leave and take that step. But it’s also not as scary as you probably think, once you are on the other side. Like, Susan would have been okay as long as she was safe from Josh. There were signs he might kill her, but no body educated her about them. So going back to your point, get to safety, do whatever it takes to get to safety. And then start rebuilding your life, and you’ll be okay. ## SUSAN’S STORY OPENED MY EYES TO POTENTIAL VIOLENCE **Dave:** But seeing the impact that Susan’s story has had opened my eyes in a big way. Even today, having this conversation with you, Anne, is a continuation of that process. It’s a matter of learning and forcing the uncomfortable. And that’s my biggest takeaway. Honestly, I think seeing that abusive relationship in very close detail is, at its core, a lack of empathy on Josh’s part, not showing what I would consider a human care for another person’s well-being. **Anne:** Yeah, there’s a lot that goes into this whole topic of misogyny, believing women and the *Me Too* movement. All these other factors that came about after the *Me Too* movement happened, after Susan’s disappearance. Then what are signs your husband might hill you? **Dave:** And it’s not political. I think Me Too gets a little politicized. And people start wanting to say well, you know, but not all guys, and it’s like no no, no. Let’s not do that. Let’s focus on believing and showing empathy for people in bad situations who need help. That’s all. **Anne:** Yeah, your podcast was amazing. It was gripping. If you have not yet listened, it is called *Cold*. If you have not heard it, I would highly recommend it. It is excellent. Thank you so much for your time, Dave. We appreciate you being here. **Dave:** Thanks, Anne. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Overwhelmed by Self-Care After Betrayal? A Powerful Lifeline](https://www.btr.org/self-care-books-for-women/) **Published:** January 10, 2023 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Self care after discovering your husband lied to you is challenging. Here's what helps. **Content:** If you’re searching for **self care books for women** after discovering your husband’s betrayal, It’s likely you’re overwhelmed and trying to find ways to get through the day, feed your kids, answer one text, or stop ruminating. After reading over 50 books and interviewing many experts, here are seven things to know about self-care when you’re in the fog of betrayal trauma. If you’re struggling in the fog and need support try our [Betrayal Trauma Recovery group sessions](/group/). ### 1. SELF CARE IS BEING UNDERSTANDING WITH YOURSELF The most important thing about self-care after betrayal is that you’re understanding with yourself. Trauma doesn’t stay in your thoughts. It moves throughout your whole body. Not all women experiencing betrayal trauma feel it the same way. Some women collapse. Some women leap into problem solving mode, finding self care books. Many do a mix. Some days they can’t get out of bed. Other days they over-function. So it’s really important to know that your body is responding to the trauma, exactly how it should. There’s nothing wrong with you, and that realization alone can be a form of self-care. Self-care might be as simple as putting your hand on your heart and saying, “My reaction makes sense. Any woman in my situation would be feeling and acting like this. I’m completely normal.” **Self care** **books recommendation:** **[*The Body Keeps the Score* by Bessel van der Kolk](https://amzn.to/3QsctiT)** helps explain why betrayal trauma doesn’t stay neatly in your thoughts. It moves through your entire body. ### 2. SELF CARE IS TAKING A BREAK FROM EXPLAINING Part of self-care after betrayal is knowing you can take a rest from trying to explain it. When betrayed, they’ve often spent days, months, years trying to describe it to their friends and family. Just doing this is exhausting. Talking to people who understand and you don’t have to like convince is a form of relief. In fact, I wrote a picture book about this. It’s called *Trauma Mama Husband Drama*. **Self care** **books recommendation:** [Trauma Mama Husband Drama](https://amzn.to/4cJZxfS) **by Anne Blythe** helps shift your focus away from whether he or anyone else “gets it” and toward what actually protects you. ### 3. SELF CARE IS REFUSING TO TAKE THE BLAME FOR HIS BETRAYAL If your husband’s betrayal has turned your inner voice against you, that matters. There could have been gaslighting about why he did it, with statements like ‘you are too controlling’ or that ‘you didn’t do this or that’, and that’s why he lied to you. He could have made a hundred million different choices. He could have eaten ice cream every day, or gone bowling. Choosing to lie to you was a choice that he made that has nothing to do with you. It’s not your fault. **Self care** b**ooks recommendation:** **[*Self-Compassion* by Kristin Neff](https://amzn.to/48C6Iph)** gently interrupts the spiral that his deception creates. This is one of the most important self care books for women to read—because healing gets harder when you’re carrying both his betrayal *and* self-condemnation. ### 4. SELF CARE AFTER BETRAYAL IS FINDING WHAT REALLY MATTERS TO YOU After betrayal, most women describe themselves as being in survival mode. Everything can feel like a priority. What do you even focus on first? His behavior? The kids? The finances? Trying to figure out the truth? This is where self-care after betrayal becomes less about doing more and finding what actually matters right now. **Self care book recommendation:** **[*Essentialism*](https://amzn.to/4u7KMKY) by Greg McKeown** helps you sort through all of the things that are vying for your attention, so you can focus on what is essential to support yourself. ### 5. WHEN PRESSURE TO FORM SELF CARE HABITS IS TOO MUCH, TRY A RITUAL Creating new habits can be fun and useful. But for women who are carrying the heavy emotional load from their husband’s betrayal, too much pressure to start a new habit can feel like another accusation that they’re not doing enough. Instead of asking, “What new habit should I force myself to start?” Try creating a new ritual that invites you to be present in your own life. Try asking, “What state am I in right now?” and “What small, meaningful action could help me move toward peace?” Like: - Like wrapping your child in a blanket and singing one little song before bed. - Sitting quietly in the car for three minutes before walking into the house. - Before responding to a difficult text, pause and say to yourself, “I don’t have to answer that right now.” - Listening to a story or podcast episode before bed that helps restore some hope - Or taking one minute after doing something hard to say, “I’m proud of myself for doing that.” Hopefully, you’ll find that the action you choose will restore some sense of peace and confidence in yourself. ## A NOTE ABOUT SELF CARE BOOKS FOR WOMEN AFTER A HUSBAND’S BETRAYAL It makes sense that many women experiencing betrayal trauma struggle to focus enough to read full books. If that’s you, know that it’s completely normal to be overwhelmed and you’re not alone. Our goal isn’t to add another thing to your “plate”to do” list. More than anything, we want to experience moments where your body can feel a little more safe. Try listening to [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast.](/podcast/) You can listen while you walk. You might find that the other women’s stories will heal you. #### main Takeaways from this interview: - **[How Some Self Care Books Misidentify the Problem](#what-is-hidden-abuse)** - **[How Creating a Ritual for Yourself is Better than a New Habit](#recovery-after-betrayal)** - **[Finding Ways that Work for You to Take a Break From the Pain](#healing-from-emotional-abuse)** - **[Taking Steps to Be Present and Create Emotional Safety in Your Life](#how-to-set-boundaries)** - **[Creative Ways to Use Rituals in Healing From Betrayal](#betrayal-trauma-recovery-help)** ![Self Care After Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/betrayal-equals-abuse.webp "Self Care After Abuse")## TRANSCRIPT: SELF CARE BOOKS FOR WOMEN AFTER BETRAYAL **Anne:** I wanna explain a little bit about why self-care for women who’ve been betrayed is different. Than just your run of the mill self-care that people and self care books talk about. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take our free [emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). Years ago, my mom sent me a Wall Street Journal article entitled *Standing Against Psychiatry’s Crazies.* It was an interview with psychiatrist Paul McHugh. And the basic point that stuck with me was this: Sometimes the psychiatric and therapeutic community misses what’s actually happening with people. McHugh believed that often practitioners did what he called “DSM checklist psychiatry” matching up symptoms from The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Health Disorders with the goal of achieving a diagnosis. Rather than figuring out the “true sources and nature of the affliction.” When I read that, I immediately thought about betrayal trauma, because this is what so many women in our community experience. She might be told she has PTSD. She might be told she’s codependent, that she’s too reactive, that she’s reacting instead of responding. Whatever that means, perhaps she needs to look at herself to see how she contributed to the problem, and she needs self-care. The problem is that’s still all about her, and it’s not recognizing that she’s a victim of abuse, and there’s nothing she can do about his abusiveness toward her because it’s all his fault. The problem is that’s still all about her, and it’s not recognizing that she’s a victim of abuse, ## HOW SOME SELF CARE BOOKS MISIDENTIFY THE PROBLEM **Anne:** She doesn’t have a part to play. Many of the women experiencing betrayal trauma have symptoms that would qualify as PTSD or c-P-T-S-D. However, I don’t think women have a syndrome. I think they’re reacting in normal ways to what is happening to them. And if that abuse is not identified, which is frequently the case, then they’re just told they have trauma, but they’re not told what the trauma is actually from. And in that case, the women are treated like they’re a problem, and they don’t have a problem at all. Their husband is the problem. On the other side of that, they may not identify him as an abuser. They may say he has an addiction or childhood wounds, and that’s causing this behavior, but that behavior isn’t identified as [emotional or psychological abuse](/abusers-manipulate-their-victims/) or coercion. Some people put her in a position to help resolve his abusiveness. After reading over 50 self care books, trauma books and interviewing over 200 women about their experience with betrayal trauma, I found most information about self-care in books or from therapists ignores the most important thing. Self-care isn’t gonna do a whole lot for you if you’re still being injured. No doctor would say, “Let’s work on healing this if the injury is still occurring.” So it doesn’t make any sense that a therapist or psychiatrist would ask her to look at her childhood wounds or heal from her PTSD or anything like that if he’s still lying to her. In that article, he says the same thing that a lot of times they match the symptoms, but it doesn’t actually explain what’s really happening. ## WHY BETRAYAL TRAUMA RECOVERY GROUPS FOR WOMEN WORK **Anne:** And the solutions they propose don’t actually work in the real world. So that’s why I created **[Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions](/group/)**. Because women needed to talk to other women who understand, who didn’t blame them, who didn’t diagnose them. And say, “Yeah, you’re reacting like I did. We’re all totally normal, sane people. Anyone who had this happen would have a hard time sleeping. Anyone who had it happen would have flashbacks. Anyone who had this happen would be upset. This is totally normal.” The other important thing about Group Sessions that was important to me. I don’t ever recommend you do couple therapy with your husband if he’s betrayed you. I talk about this so much. But in terms of therapy, it’s so expensive, and what women really need is actual daily support that is inexpensive, especially with the financial pressures they’re under. And so [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group](/group/) is the most inexpensive way to get the most support. Okay, now my interview with Danielle. She is incredible. We had a really good discussion about the overwhelm women feel and how to reframe self-care so that it can actually be a relief to you. Welcome to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. This is Anne. ## DANIELLE’S ADVICE FOR SUSTAINABLE GROWTH **Anne:** I have Danielle McGeough on today’s episode. She is a professor, speaker and transformation strategist, known for her warm grounded approach to change through her signature RISE Ritual Method and her Plan Goal Plan podcast. She helps high performing women and teens reconnect with their core identities, navigate transitions, and create intentional plans that lead to sustainable growth. As a self-proclaimed ritual nerd, Danielle believes planning is more than productivity, and I’m so excited to have her on today to talk to us about how we can create some structure for our [healing from betrayal](/songs-about-healing-from-trauma/). Welcome. Danielle **Danielle:** Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to be here. **Anne:** So Danielle, let’s start with your story. You call yourself a ritual nerd. Can you tell us more about that? **Danielle:** Growing up, I was not the smart kid, at least that’s what I told myself. All of my report cards describe me as unique, which is a polite way of saying weird. I was a very quirky kid, and I’m a pretty quirky adult. When I was probably 20 years old, I decided to get a PhD and become a professor. Going into that, I knew that I was going to be in a doctoral program with all these smartypants, many of whom had been the smart kids their whole lives. So I told myself that the only way I could keep up is if I worked twice as hard as everyone else. ## I FELT LOST IN SELF CARE AND HABIT ADVICE **Danielle:** If I created all the habits, work habits, life habits, study habits. You have a habit, I’m gonna stack it and that’s how I’m gonna keep up with everyone else. I did it and it worked. And I got the PhD, I got the dream job, and I earned tenure. Fast forward about 15, 20 years later, I found myself absolutely flat, hollow. I had done the thing that honestly, I didn’t really believe that I could do, and I should have felt satisfied. And I should have felt incredibly proud, elated, and instead I felt pretty lost. I had no idea what I wanted to do next. I had no idea what I actually enjoyed doing. My inclination was, wooh! I guess we better start some new habits, like what else can we stack? I was fortunate that I was teaching a class at the time where a student actually gave a presentation on decorative planning. She was taking her planner and covering it in stickers, because her therapist had recommended that as a way for her to have positive associations with her time management. She was really avoiding any sort of time management strategies. So put some pretty stickers in it. Doodle, let’s make this into a craft project. I was like, Ooh, that’s fun. So I started to do that. And as I did it, it made me realize that what I did really wasn’t a new habit. It was actually a ritual, which is something I’ve been researching and teaching about. The biggest difference between a habit and a ritual is that a habit is designed to eventually become unconscious. It is meant to be automatic. You get a habit down, you don’t think about it. ## WHAT WILL MY LIFE BE LIKE NOW? **Danielle:** And I will say as women. Who carry a lot of mental and invisible loads, not thinking about self care or self care books. Having good habits is wildly important, because we need to offload some of that to automaticity. But if you do that too much, you’re stripping yourself of meaning and intentionality. And what rituals do is actually transition us from one state to another. They invite presence, and they infuse our actions with meaning. **Anne:** You just described a similar situation to what all my listeners are going through. In your case, it wasn’t this specifically, but to relate it to all my listeners, when you get married, you have this certain identity. You’re thinking, I’m going to grow old with this person. This is the life that we’re going to have. We’re going to build this life together. And when you discover he has betrayed you, everything shifts. You wonder who you are, you wonder what my life will be? I wouldn’t say it feels flat, it feels very, very traumatic, but it has the same type of next steps where you have to, well, you don’t have to. I didn’t do this for a while. For a while, I sat on the couch and ate Oreos. But at some point. We try to make steps forward like reading self care books, into, okay, what is my life going to be like now? so a lot of women are trying to decide, do I stay with him? Do I leave? If I stay with him, how am I going to act? What is my life gonna be like if I leave? What is it gonna be like? It’s just all of this, how do I move forward? In my journey, I knew that my husband had betrayed me and that he had lied to me. And so I went through seven years of sex addiction therapy, trying to help him with his sex addiction. ## THINGS WE DO TO SURVIVE, FINDING SELF CARE BOOKS **Anne:** And then he was actually arrested. when he was taken from our home, that was when the most trauma hit. And that was the time I just mentioned where I was on the couch quite a bit, watching a lot of television, eating a lot of Oreos, and I wouldn’t say that habits were on my radar. **Anne:** This stage is different for everyone. Some women are like, they get up at five o’clock in the morning in their trauma, and they run 10 miles, and that’s how they feel better. It depends on them. I did the couch and the Oreos thing. I always wanna tell women, no matter what you do, don’t feel bad about it. Especially if you’re on the couch, like eating Oreos not reading self care books, because [emotionally I felt like a truck had hit me](/leave-my-emotionally-abusive-husband/). There’s no doctor in the world that’s gonna be like, a truck just hit you. Now you need to do all this stuff. They’d be like, lay in bed, heal, watch some TV. I’m a big fan of that. So, I’m not sure if that is a ritual? ’cause it certainly wasn’t a habit, or maybe it was a habit, but what’s the difference between the things we fall into to survive, and it’s totally fine. And then what helps us transition into something more intentional, and maybe something that we choose? Can you help me sort that out? **Danielle:** Yeah, so when you are in that couch and Oreo moment, I’m not sure that’s necessarily a ritual. It might be a habit, maybe that’s what you’ve fallen into as a coping mechanism, and it doesn’t feel super intentional. It’s just what’s cozy and you go to, and I don’t think there should be any shame or guilt around that. I think it’s a very normal human response to grab the Oreos. ## HOW DO I INTENTIONALLY REBUILD MEANING? **Danielle:** I also think it’s a pretty normal human response to go, Hey, everything feels out of control. My response is a fight response where that looks like me over functioning and getting up at 5:00 AM, going jogging, planning all my meals, and making sure my house is spotless and all those things. I think people can fall into either way of being. **Anne:** Or both, they could be falling apart in some ways and over-functioning in other ways, depending on the person. **Danielle:** Absolutely, I think it’s common for sometimes people to over-function at work, but then fall apart at home or vice versa. What I think is helpful about a ritual is that it will give you some of the structure that you might need. But without maybe the regimen of a habit, it’s gonna feel a little cozier. And I think it’s going to help you in a moment where you feel like, wow, all this has happened to me, and I don’t feel like I got a lot of say in this. To go, where are little spaces, cracks, fissures that I have a slice of choice, and how do I claim that as my own? How do I intentionally do it to rebuild the meaning I wanna have in my life? I’ll give you an example. It might be something as simple as feeling like you need to numb out, and catch that and say, if I could choose how I felt and it didn’t need to be numb to feel good, what would that feeling be? Then you could design a short, small ritual to help transition you to that state. ## TAKING A BREAK FROM PAIN **Danielle:** So maybe you’re numbing out, but what you wanna do is relax on the couch with your kid, but you still wanna be present with them. So maybe you create a short little ritual that helps you stay present, instead of to numb out in that moment or reading self care books. **Anne:** I call it taking a break from the pain, but yes, it’s the same thing. That’s an interesting idea. So you know *Dumbo,* the movie? I would *Baby Mine* my kids. I would wrap them in a blanket, hold them, and sing *Baby Mine* to them. And it was a thing. I’d be like, get over here and I’ll *Baby Mine* you. So even my giant son, who is 5’10”, he’s 13. I will still be like, get over here on the couch and wrap him up and sing *Baby Mine*. And then also if there’s any kids like in the neighborhood, even my ex’s new son, their half brother, if they ever come home and say, “Oh, this thing happened with him.”” Like he wasn’t really behaving. I’m like, “Oh no, he needs to be *Baby Mined*.” Are you guys *Baby Mine-ing* him? Like he really needs that.” and it’s very short. It’s just the four lines. “*Baby Mine, don’t you cry. Baby Mine, dry your eyes. You are so precious to me, cute as can be, baby of mine.*” That’s it. But I never thought of that as a very mini-ritual where I was very present with my kids in that moment and could focus on them and take a break from the pain. **Danielle:** Absolutely, I think it’s something that you do that has a clear beginning, a clear end. You have attached meaning to it. It means something to you. ## SELF CARE BOOKS: I WANNA BE “SAFE PLACE SARAH” **Danielle:** It means something to your kiddos. It sounds like it transitions you into this break from pain feeling, and that it’s also a way for you all to communicate your care and love for each other. And so it is absolutely a ritual. You’ve infused it with meaning. And if you did it in a different order, you’d probably be like, “Well, that wasn’t right.” Or like, “Mom, you can’t do it like this. You’ve gotta do it the right way.” **Anne:** Yeah, if you don’t have a blanket, it’s not gonna work. **Danielle:** Yeah. **Anne:** If you don’t sing the whole thing, it’s not gonna work if you don’t sing it in the right order. Yeah, I had never thought about this, but this is all true. **Danielle:** So yeah, that was a ritual, and it means something to you all. I’ll give another couple examples like that. So a client of mine came to me and very vulnerably shared with me that her son had these tantrums after school, the witching hours sort of thing that toddlers tend to have. And she was so exhausted from the day that she’s like, “I would just lose my temper with him. I’d be like, come on, stop. I’d just get so frustrated.” And she’s like, “I was having mom rage.” I said, “okay, so that’s your current state. What’s the state that you would like to be in? In that moment, what would you like to be?” And she said, “I wanna be safe place Sarah.” ## SELF CARE CAN BE AS SIMPLE AS TAKING A DEEP BREATH **Danielle:** And I thought, wow, that’s beautiful. And so we came up with just the moment that she saw her son having a tantrum, she would activate safe place Sarah, by just taking a deep breath. She spread out her arms and then she would invite him because he responded really well to actually physical touch in those moments. So she would wrap him in a big bear hug. She would say, “Hey, you’re safe. You’re safe with me now.” It was a way for her to transition her state because her response wanted to be mom rage. Like, “Stop it. Why are you throwing this tantrum?” You can use something as quick as that. A way to say, Hey, it’s almost like putting a pause between you and your reaction, and then saying, how do I wanna respond in this moment? Then like for her, those actions took on a meaning. They helped her transition to the state she wanted. She could be present in that moment instead of just reacting. So that’s a great example. My sister is a chaplain in a hospital, so she sits with people when they die. Sometimes it can be [emotionally overwhelming](/new-husband-is-abusive-too/) for her. But she needs to maintain a certain emotional state to care and hold space for other people. She keeps a rock in her pocket, and if she finds herself overwhelmed with emotion, she’ll reach into her pocket and imagine putting all those emotions into the rock. Then she’ll return to present for that person. And so I love to offer these examples, because I could give you other examples that could be a morning ritual that takes an hour, right? ## SELF CARE BOOKS: MANAGING YOUR OWN SAFETY **Danielle:** But I want you to know that a ritual could be something as fast as your **Dumbo** example. It could be as fast as taking a deep breath and spreading out your arms, and then a bear hug, or even just reaching down and grabbing a rock. **Anne:** That’s so good. I’m thinking of the women who, at this point, feel safer staying in their relationship. **Danielle:** Mm-hmm. **Anne:** He’s still [abusive emotionally and psychologically](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/qh8hVJDNblY), and they’re learning how to observe when this occurs. Because of some of this abuse, he’s gonna seem really nice. He’s gonna seem very kind. He is gonna be lying, but it’s not gonna feel overt, it’s not gonna feel scary necessarily. It might when you realize, oh my word, this is freaky, because he’s totally lying to me right now. **Anne:** But when I say this, in my workshop, we have strategies that women can use to realize what’s happening and learn to take steps towards safety in that sense. I don’t give necessarily specific examples. It’s more like the principle of the thing. So you observe it’s unsafe, and without telling the unsafe person, “Hey, you’re unsafe.” We’re not trying to control them, you’re just trying to manage your own safety. So, “Hey, I’m late for this thing. I forgot about it. So you could make this exit without causing them to know, because when they know you’re onto them, things can get tricky for you. I’ve never thought of using rituals in that way, but that can also be a way to use a ritual. ## TAKE STEPS TO CREATE A RITUAL **Anne:** Like when you feel unsafe, you don’t have to be with your abusive husband. It could be anywhere. I’m going to do this ritual, I’m going to take a step back. And I’m gonna look at my watch. I’m going to say, oh, I forgot. I have a thing. That might be a habit, I don’t know. But if you have a thing that you do that has steps, okay, I know what to do. The second I have this feeling in my body. Then I have steps that I can take. That’s the thing I like about my workshop, and it works so well with the strategies you teach. I just teach the principle of safety. Whereas you’re looking at what specific thing can they do and what are the parts of it. **Danielle:** Absolutely. **Anne:** Okay, so like you would work with someone. And maybe where I would say, “Okay, this is an instance where you need a safety strategy, but whatever you choose is up to you.” And you would take that further and say, “Okay, let’s actually break this down. Step one, look up your hand. Step two, look at your watch. Step three, say I gotta go.” So as you’re working with people to develop these rituals, how do you help them decide the linear, like step one, step two, step three, and then also work with them to make sure that is working for them? **Danielle:** Absolutely, so that’s where my RISE Ritual Method really comes in. And that stands for Reflect, Intentionally Plan, Sensory Activation and Embody the Story. And so the R the reflect part is really important. That’s when we go. What is your current state? ## THE DESIRED STATE IS SAFETY **Danielle:** So in the situation you were just describing, the current state would be, I feel unsafe. And the desired state is safety. Naming where you are and where you wanna be is really, really important. Because I would say in the example you were giving, like checking the watch and all these things to get yourself to safety, part of what you’re also trying to do is regulate your nervous system in the moment so that you can think clearly. **Anne:** I wanna say because he’s doing it on purpose to dysregulate you. So if you’re dysregulated, like good for you you should be. Anyone would be in that circumstance. So like, congratulations, you’re normal. And overcoming that is this Herculean, literally other worldly non-human, like you’re still human, but I mean you’re a super person. If you can say, okay, any normal person would be dysregulated. I will now make this choice to do this thing that is completely against what any normal person would do to keep myself safe. This is quite the feat. So I want women to feel good about being dysregulated in the first place. ‘Cause yay, you’re normal. And then also give them hope. I say they’re superhuman, and it’s amazing. But I also see women do this every day. I’m so impressed that they do it all the time, when it seems so difficult and it is, but it’s also doable. I’m trying to hold both of those at the same time. ## DYSREGULATION IS A SIGNAL TO USE YOUR RITUAL **Danielle:** Remind yourself that the dysregulation isn’t something you’re going to try to fix with your ritual. Rather, recognize that it’s a signal that you need to use your ritual. That your ritual’s there to support you in the moment you’re in. From there, that’s when we start to intentionally plan, and that’s like what will be the way you open your ritual? How do you wanna close it? What are the other activities that you need inside of that ritual? You wanna be clear that every action or practice that happens within the ritual always should move you to that desired state. I’m gonna give an example that’s completely different than what we’ve been talking about. But like in the morning, I like to have not just a morning routine, but a morning ritual that I’m very present for. That helps me ’cause I wake up and am an anxious waker upper, I wake up and my to-do list is spinning in my head. And I wanna get to work right away, but I need to bring myself down. I wanna feel grounded. I wanna feel calm as I start my day. And so to get me to that calm spot, I might do things like journal or wear a cozy Snuggy, and do all these different things. My husband, when he wakes up, is groggy and he’s foggy. And so if I put him in a Snuggy and say, “Hey, now I want you to meditate.” He would fall back to sleep. So his morning ritual will have a different current state and a different desired state. ## SELF CARE BOOKS: RECOGNIZING PATTERNS **Danielle:** Because of that, all the actions that happen to get us from there need to support those things. Does that make sense? **Anne:** Yeah, so some women resist the abuse through fighting, for example, some resist through doing what he wants, thinking then this will end. Then he’ll stop yelling at me, for example, if I just do the thing. Women are in that same boat where they’re reacting healthy in healthy ways, trying to resolve it. It’s not working, because he’s anticipating what they’re gonna do. Oh cool, she’s just done what I wanted, perfect. It worked. Or now we’re in a fight and this fight is fun. I just wanted to put that out there to our listeners. So as they listen to you, think about the way you resist the abuse, and then maybe how you want to resist it or something? Is that what you’re saying? Like where do you wanna go with it? **Danielle:** So what I really love about working with people around the ritual is that to create the ritual in a way that it really shifts you from that current state to that desired state, it requires you to first understand your own patterns It sounds like that’s one thing that you help people recognize, what are your abusive partner’s patterns, and also what are your patterns in responding to that. And how do you want to interrupt the patterns in a way that keeps you safe, that moves you closer to safe? ## IT EVOLVES OVER TIME **Danielle:** So, absolutely, you’re gonna want to recognize, am I a fight or flight person? Do I fawn, there are all these different things that you might do, and then that might trigger a different reaction from him. **Anne:** So determining, it is a lot of planning. It’s a lot of intentional thinking about what are the most common patterns I see? How are the ways I could get to safety? And then in my workshop, I talk about evolving over time. So if you find a ritual that works for you, and you’re like, man, I’m feeling safe. This is awesome. I can be safe, he’s doing his thing, and I can do my thing. And then he changes it up, because if he is a coercive controller, he’s like, I can’t control her anymore, and he’s gonna try something else. Then you evolve over time until you feel that safety. And that’s why some women end up choosing divorce. Or some betrayers choose divorce because they can’t control. That’s what happened with me. We’re not pro or anti-divorce around here, but when I set boundaries and he couldn’t do anything to get me to do what he wanted, he ended up filing. Can you talk about that evolution process? I’m guessing everybody goes through it, because I always say with boundaries. And I know we’re mixing boundaries and rituals here, but at the same time, your boundary can be a ritual. You can put some steps to it. ## SWITCHING UP A RITUAL THAT HAS FADED **Anne:** As we’re thinking about how to apply it in the situation that women are listening. I always say you’re never going to do it, “the right way” the first time. As women develop rituals, either in response to abuse, or maybe they’re out of the abuse. Maybe they’re just feeling sad or lonely. Would you mind sharing with us that evolution process of making sure that our rituals work for us? **Danielle:** Yeah, so one of the things that is hard about rituals is that you want them to stay present, like you want to be present, and they want them to feel intentional and infused with meaning. But when we repeat things over and over again. They can eventually fade. They become invisible to us almost through that repetition. Some of it is, do you have some practices in place that would help you go, Oh, I’m not sure this is working anymore, but I do have this RISE Ritual Method that I can follow. So what would I need to do to switch it up? Do I need to switch up the whole ritual? So the S in the RISE Ritual Method stands for sensory activation, and that’s like how do you invite your senses into the process? So that might be breath or touch, as in an example of the rock, or it might be smell, or there’s all sorts of ways that you can invite your senses into the process? Well, maybe some of it is like, oh, I’ve gotten used to this sensory experience so much that I don’t notice it anymore. So maybe I just need to switch up how I’m activating my senses. ## SELF CARE BOOKS: DETERMINING IF THE RITUAL NEEDS TO CHANGE **Danielle:** It’s almost like if you like a good perfume and start using it, and when you first use it, you can smell it on your hair. You can smell it on your clothes, and then like after two weeks, you don’t even smell it on yourself anymore. That can happen to our rituals, and then they can become invisible, we aren’t present to them. They can also be empty. We’ve heard that staying like an empty ritual, which just basically means you’re going through the motions, but you’ve forgotten to connect it to the meaning. You might just need to shake things up, wiggle, jiggle yourself out of it, and give yourself permission to know that’s not because you’re doing anything wrong, that’s how human behavior works. And you might find too, that another year down the road, you could come back to that same ritual, and it will work for you again. **Anne:** Let’s talk about that for a minute. My sister and I, I love prayer and I love reading scriptures. It brings me a lot of peace. I find answers. She doesn’t, she’s like, I pray and I don’t get answer. I don’t know if God exists. I’d say she’s more agnostic. There’s no way to know. And so for her, it doesn’t. I might say, well, if you pray and don’t feel it, keep praying. Eventually, you’ll feel it. She is like, no, because I prayed and prayed and never felt it. When we’re thinking about new rituals and how we want to feel, how do we know when we need to keep doing the thing to feel it? Or when that’s just not gonna work for us, and we need to try something else. Does that make sense? ## IT MAY TAKE TRIAL AND ERROR **Anne:** Because I, I feel like sometimes if we give up too soon, we’re not going to experience it. Or if we do it one time and we’re like distracted, and we say, oh, that’s not gonna work for me. Kind of like if you would have the perfect health, if all you ate was green beans, that’s it. And you kind of ate green beans, but then you ate a bunch of other stuff, and then you’re like, well, the green bean thing didn’t work for me. And you’re like, well, you didn’t actually do it. So how do we know if we need to try more or if that thing’s not gonna work for us? **Danielle:** I love that question. I think that one is, do you feel a transition in your state? If you don’t, let’s keep trying something. I think sometimes we get so stuck on the pathway to the state that we forget that it’s the state that we’re after. I’ll give you an example. I had a client and she came to me and said, “I wanna have a gratitude practice, a gratitude ritual, and I would like to sit down and write thank you cards to my colleagues every Friday.” And so she tries it, she does it one week, she feels great about it, and then she never does it again. And she’s like, “I don’t know what’s going on. I just can’t get myself to sit down on Fridays and write these thank you cards.” She’s like, “Oh my gosh, am I an ungrateful person? I feel like I care about my colleagues and I’m grateful for them, but like I cannot muster the desire to sit down and do this.” ## Remember the goal **Danielle:** And so we got to talking and at some point she talked about how much she loved baking bread, and I was like, awesome, you love to bake bread? I said, well, what if you made bread for your colleagues and once a month just gave a few people some loaves of bread? She was like, what? So I do think that sometimes it might take a period of trial and error experimentation to go, okay, the goal here wasn’t to write the thank you cards. The goal was to be grateful. And to offer a visible expression of gratitude to others, and that there are many pathways there. So if you’re trying something out and the desired state is to feel safe, calm, or grounded in a moment where everything feels like the ground is moving beneath you. The first thing you try is I would give it a few tries, **Danielle:** But if you aren’t feeling it, go well. What are the other paths to getting me to that state? I actually love the example you gave with your sister in prayer, because religion is a place where we experience a lot of rituals or maybe first learned about rituals. With prayer, for example. I think that was one of the beautiful things, so I grew up in a really religious home, and every single morning we would pray before leaving. So, I was thinking about that as a ritual that my family did, and I thought what was so beautiful about that was that we were sitting in the morning before we left and saying out loud. I hope Erica does well on her test. ## FEELING CONNECTED **Danielle:** I hope Nicole has a gentle day, because she’s nervous about all that she has to do, and there’s something so powerful about hearing that other people are thinking about you and caring about you. And they’re expressing it out loud. sometimes it might be like the prayer. In this case, it is just like one avenue to feel connected to God or a higher being. If your sister doesn’t feel connected through prayer, I would say, do you feel that way when you’re out in nature? So maybe walking is your prayer. Do you feel that way if you’re journaling? Where are the moments that you feel connected to something bigger than you? **Anne:** Let’s say you don’t believe in God anymore, for example, and you don’t really wanna pray, but you miss the connection with your kids. Thinking of that and being like, okay, before they leave I can say, I hope you have a great day today. I know you have this, this, and this, and my wish for you is this. Because I love you so much. Have a great day. You know that kind of a thing where you may not wanna do the one thing, but you realize the thing that you do like that’s working for you. And you take that. And I think that’s really important especially for women who find themselves in the situation that my listeners are in, because everybody has advice for them. Everybody is like, “Oh, he cheated on you. You gotta leave right now.” Or, oh, never ever get divorced. God hates divorce or something. ## SELF CARE BOOKS: FEELING PEACE IN MY HOME **Anne:** Everybody has the thing they wanna tell you that you should do. But knowing I just wanna feel peace in my own home. That’s what I wanna feel. And so how am I going to get there? What am I going to do to make sure that I can feel peace in my own home is so, so important. Because women get really, really creative, and with these amazing ways of finding peace that work for them in their specific situation, that I am always so impressed with. I bet you see that too, the different creative ways that people are finding too, would we say, to create that feeling that they’re looking for. Is that what you would describe that as? **Danielle:** Yeah, absolutely. I had a client who came to me and talked about something that I think so many people experience. Which is, you’ve had a big day and come home from work, and you have a busy brain and can’t shut it off. So as you get your kids’ snacks and preparing dinner, and maybe watching a movie with them, you’re thinking through all your tasks, the emails. I think that this is so common with people that are in abusive situations too. You are on high alert, your brain is trying to protect you all of the time. So you’re in this constant state of noticing, paying attention, noticing paying attention. And so how do you calm that? She said, “I’m busy, Betty, and I want to be relaxed Rita.” ## WHEN YOU’RE IN A PLACE OF TRAUMA, IT’S HARD TO BE PRESENT **Danielle:** And we realized that doing her end of the day ritual at work wasn’t helpful, because people were interrupting. But then doing her end of the day ritual once she got home, she’d get interrupted. So we just created a little ritual box and put it in her van, and she would put her minivan into the garage. It would take five minutes, pull out that little box. She had her journal. She was also a person of faith. I think she had a scripture that she’d write every day. She’d play music in the car, and she would just take five minutes. It was very short. The idea was I’m not leaving that car until I’m relaxed Rita. Then I’ll go in and do the rest of my evening as relaxed Rita. I think one of the powerful things is that when you’re in a place of trauma or crisis, it’s so hard to be present fully. Because you are trying to predict everything that could happen and all those things, but you also don’t wanna miss out. And you want the little spaces where life is peaceful, beautiful, and wonderful. ## PEACE IS DOABLE FOR 30 SECONDS **Danielle:** You don’t wanna miss those little moments, because your brain is going and going and going because it’s been trained to protect you that way. For me, one of the beautiful things about using rituals is that you might have to have a lot of ’em. You might do it and have to do it again, because the realities of your life require a lot of recalibrating. **Anne:** I love that you’re talking about this. I love your work. and I love talking to you about it. It’s incredible. Thank you so much. To learn more about Danielle’s work, her podcast is Plan Goal Plan. And you can find her at plangoalplan.com. **Anne:** Danielle, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us today. I know that women are gonna love this episode and just have a sense that there are little things they can do and start thinking about. ## SELF CARE BOOKS: YOU HAVE THE POSSIBILITY OF CREATING PEACE **Anne:** Most of the women who listen to my podcast are planners. They want to know what their next steps are. They want to know what the “solution” is. And there is no one fits all solution. So having at least a framework to develop a way to start with maybe how you’re feeling, and then maybe work toward different goals. But at least that one small goal is something that everybody can accomplish in that day. Like today, in this moment, I want to feel peace is doable. Compared to I wanna feel peace the rest of my life. To feel peace for 30 seconds might be the only thing they can do that day, but at least with the structure that you’ve given them, they have the opportunity to create that. And that’s so exciting. **Danielle:** I love that they have the opportunity, capability, and possibility of creating peace for themselves. And I wish that for them. I wish you all your 30 seconds of peace, and then 30 more seconds, and then 30 more seconds. **Anne:** Yeah, and eventually you will have a peaceful life. Eventually they will feel peaceful in their own home. Almost all the time, which is what my goal is for them. It’s just a little farther out than the 30 seconds. **Danielle:** Thank you so much Anne. **Anne:** Thank you. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [When Your Ex Uses the Kids to Hurt You - How to Deal With His Chaos](https://www.btr.org/ex-uses-the-kids-to-hurt-you/) **Published:** September 29, 2026 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** There is no fear or pain equivalent to the trauma when your ex uses the kids to hurt you. **Content:** There is no fear or pain quite like the trauma a woman experiences when your ex uses the kids to hurt you. Whether it’s through the family court system, co-parenting, or everyday chaos, abusers know one of the most effective ways to harm a woman is through her children. If you’re going through this and need support, come to our [online support group for betrayal trauma](/group/). ![Ex is Continually Trying to Use Our Kids to Hurt Me](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/When-My-Ex-Uses-Our-Kids-To-Hurt-Me.webp "when My Ex Uses Our Kids to Hurt Me")## FIVE TRUTHS: WHEN YOUR EX USES THE KIDS TO HURT YOU - **My ex husband’s emotional abuse didn’t stop after divorce**. I thought leaving would end the chaos. It didn’t. It just changed form. *In my case:* My ex husband used the kids to create more chaos. He undermined their care and disrupted their schedules by canceling appointments and refusing to take them to activities. - **The system didn’t protect me**. I believed that if I showed the truth in family court, they’d support me in protecting my children. *What actually happened:* When I went back to court six years later to request a reduction in his parenting time…they granted him more. When your ex uses the kids to hurt you, the system doesn’t always see his interference for what it is. - **Doing more didn’t fix it**. I had documented everything and communicated my reasonable requests clearly. *But:* None of that changed his behavior. When your ex uses the kids to hurt you, more communication and effort on your part just gives him more material to twist, escalate, and use against you later. - **He didn’t want resolution, he wanted control** I kept thinking we could figure it out. That we could land on something that worked for the kids. But his goal wasn’t peace, or parenting, it was control. He contradicted what I said, ignored what the kids needed, and created conflict, even when it made no sense. - **Strategy, not effort, is what changed everything**. The turning point wasn’t trying harder. It was doing something completely different. *For me:* I stopped focusing on getting him to understand, or getting the court to fix it. When your ex uses the kids to hurt you, the only thing that changes the outcome is strategy. This led me to develop the strategies that eventually became my [workshop that teaches women what to do after betrayal](/clarity/). And about a year later…everything changed. ## LETTING ANGER FUEL STRATEGIC ACTION Abusive men use the courtroom to not only torment victims, but also to manipulate court professionals and seek validation. They don’t want parenting time or a peaceful resolution, they want to win. It’s impossible to [co parenting with a narcissistic parent](/co-parenting-with-a-narcissistic-parent/). They want chaos and enjoy the fight. To know if your ex is emotionally abusive, take our [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). When he uses the kids to hurt you in the courtroom, it is essential that you seek support, practice radical self-compassion and self-care, and develop good boundaries. Family court systems all over the world are broken. Outcomes are completely unpredictable. However, you can determine now to love and accept yourself no matter what happens. You can determine now to surround yourself with people who love you and build you up. You will need support and community as you face your abuser in the courtroom. It’s understandable and reasonable to be angry. Your anger is a powerful force that can drive you to take action. Anger is a catalyst for change. The reason why so many people fear an angry woman is because an angry woman is unstoppable—she takes action and challenges the status quo. This is precisely why abusers and oppressors work so hard to suppress women’s anger. They know it can dismantle their control. Anger, when channeled constructively, becomes a tool for empowerment, inspiring bold steps toward justice. ## WHEN YOUR EX USES THE KIDS TO HURT YOU: ABUSE BY PROXY If an abuser harms or manipulates the children to harm you, it’s known as “abuse by proxy.” This tactic involves using the children as tools to control, intimidate, or emotionally damage you, often by turning them against you or causing them emotional distress. It is considered a severe and harmful form of post-separation abuse, with long-lasting effects on both the targeted parent and the children involved. ![is Your Ex Trying to Use the Kids to Hurt You](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/When-Your-Ex-Uses-Kids-To-Hurt-You.webp "when Your Ex Uses Kids to Hurt You")## TRANSCRIPT: WHEN YOUR EX USES THE KIDS TO HURT YOU **Anne:** It’s just me today. You’re about to hear something that I recorded years ago before I really understood what my ex-husband was doing to me and my children, and I certainly didn’t know what to do about it. At the time of the recording, I was divorced. On paper, I had a decent custody arrangement. But behind the scenes, my ex is an attorney and he was still emotionally and psychologically abusing me and neglecting the needs of our children on almost a daily basis. In fact, he still is now. I have a son with a processing disorder. He was undermining his medical care. Canceling his appointments. He refused to support any of our children’s extracurricular activities. Every day was chaotic. So I did what I thought was in the best interest of my children. I went back to court thinking that if I could just present the truth, things would get better for my kids. Instead, he got more custody. I was devastated, and you’ll hear that in my voice in this recording. [Fighting a narcissist for custody](/fighting-a-narcissist-for-custody/) is awful. If you’re in a situation where your ex-husband is using the kids to hurt you. These are a few things that I wish I understood back then. ## THINGS I LEARNED THE HARD WAY, WHEN YOUR EX USES THE KIDS TO HURT YOU First. If you share kids, emotional abuse doesn’t stop after divorce. It just changes how it shows up. Since he can’t control you directly, he’ll use the kids to control whatever he can. Second. The civil court system is not likely going to protect you from his ongoing abuse. In fact, they’ll probably think that you’re making it up or that you’re overreacting. Now, this isn’t true. I totally get it. They perceive that just two adults can’t get along. They don’t understand the truth. There’s no way that you can get along with someone who is undermining you and lying all the time. Third, doing more doesn’t fix it. I tried being clear, cooperative, reasonable. None of it helped. Fourth, it was hard to wrap my head around the fact that he actually did not want solutions. He wanted all the privileges of being a parent without any of the responsibility. Once I understood that, everything started to make more sense. Fifth for me, strategy, not effort, changed everything. My turning point was not trying harder. It was actually doing something completely different. I’m a woman of faith and I believe in God and I study the scriptures a lot, so I’m gonna talk about how I came to know these strategies. We are interfaith inner paradigm here. So even if you’re not religious or you don’t believe in God, hopefully the way I explain these strategies will be helpful to you. ‘ Cause right after I recorded this, I was so devastated I changed my prayers. I started asking God, like what strategies I should use so that he could deliver my children from their emotionally abusive father. And that question led me to study the [scriptures on betrayal](/scriptures-on-betrayal/) and deliverance and to pray. ## DISCOVERING STRATEGIES THAT WORK WHEN YOUR EX USES THE KIDS TO HURT YOU More importantly, discover these amazing strategies that did deliver us from his chaos. We’re completely free from him now, and it’s awesome. These aren’t courtroom strategies or communication strategies to get him to understand. They were strategies that reduced his ability to create chaos in our lives. So after using them for about a year, my ex signed what I called my miracle decree where his parent time was only one short weekend a month from Friday night to Sunday night, only two holidays a year, every spring break and Thanksgiving, and only two weeks during the summer. And I was given full decision making power. So as a result of this, my children had significantly less exposure to him and I didn’t have to deal with his like constant chaos, undermining the kids or using the kids to basically harass me with long legalese type messages. ![What if Your Ex is Using the Kids to Continue Your Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-If-Your-Ex-Uses-The-Kids-To-Continue-Hurting-You.webp "What if Your Ex Uses the Kids to Continue Hurting You")## WRITING THE LIVING FREE WORKSHOP Because they worked for me, I wanted to know if they would work for other women. So there were about five women who were going through what I was going through, and I said, “Are you willing to try these strategies? They did and these women said it changed everything. After I knew, this wasn’t just a fluke. We replicated it with five different women. I created the Living Free Workshop, so every woman who was going through this could learn it. In fact, we used the real life messages of the five women we worked with for the Workshop. So in section three, communication strategies, you’ll see their messages, and I think you’ll be surprised that they’re really similar to what you experienced. As you listen to this recording from the past, remember that at the time I recorded it, I didn’t know any of the strategies. We hadn’t been delivered. If you’re like, “Ah, I’m there, I’m where Anne was.” I want you to know that I totally understand what you’re going through, and there is a way out. These strategies really can protect your peace and your children’s peace without court even if he doesn’t change, but especially if he doesn’t change. For more information about my Living Free Workshop and these strategies, go to btr.org/living free. ![What if Your Ex is Using the Kids to Continue Abusing You](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-If-Your-Ex-Uses-Your-Kids-To-Continue-Hurting-You.webp "What if Your Ex Uses Your Kids to Continue Hurting You")## LOOKING BACK, THIS CHANGED EVERYTHING Okay, let’s cue the recording. Most of you know that I am religious, that I follow a faith tradition, I’m Christian. Specifically a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I am grateful for the foundation that provides me of faith and hope in God and my Savior, Jesus Christ. For you non-religious listeners, atheists or agnostics, you are welcome here. We’re so glad you’re here, and I’m so grateful that you listen and are part of this. Because this issue affects every woman, regardless of her paradigm, her faith, or the way that she sees the world. ## PARABLE OF THE WHEAT & THE TARES **Anne:** I’ve been studying the parable of the wheat and the tares. For women of Christian faith, you’re probably familiar with the wheat and the tares. For everyone else, please indulge me. In Matthew 13, verse 25, where it says, but while men slept. Sometimes I wonder if that means that while the clergy, legal system, and basically any man who could stop the abuse, but won’t. They will not hold the abuser accountable. They won’t believe us or listen to us. That as these men sleep, the children of the devil grew and grew until you could see their fruits, basically, is what this is talking about. Many victims of abuse try to justify not setting healthy boundaries with the abuser, because he’s “a child of God.” Well, he’s a child of God. So I’m going to love him, God loves him. But that doesn’t mean he’s not hurting our kids. ![when Your Ex Uses Your Kids to Continue Harming You](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/When-Your-Ex-Uses-Your-Kids-To-Continue-Hurting-You.webp "when Your Ex Uses Your Kids to Continue Hurting You")But in this parable, starting in Matthew 13, it clearly states that there are children of the “wicked one.” And I’ve been thinking about the way the scriptures, both the Bible and the Book of Mormon, describe men who are not obeying the commandments. They don’t say, and he didn’t obey the commandments because he felt shame. They actually call them a word. And the word they call them is wicked. This is a common term used throughout the scriptures. Part of me wonders why don’t we use this term anymore? And part of it is the Christian aversion to passing judgment. But Christ also asks us to decipher between good and evil. That’s part of the reason why we’re here on earth. There are those of us who have set boundaries. ## SETTING BOUNDARIES WHEN YOUR EX USES THE KIDS TO HURT YOU **Anne:** We’ve removed everything the abuser can use to hurt us. Essentially, there’s nothing left for them to use to hurt us, except for one thing, our children. Your ex uses the kids to hurt you. Because they’re the dad, they can assert control that way. Every day, I hear stories of sheroes, victims of abuse, who are not believed or supported by their churches. Every day, I hear about how their children, these children of wicked men and righteous mothers. Are dragged through chaos and pain regarding custody in the courts, because the wicked have no desire for peace. That’s not their goal. Their goal is to win. I wonder if you would do something with me, and if our whole community will do this. And for you atheists, maybe just hold it like a moment of silence or something that works for you. Like offer it up to the universe. Will you pray every morning and night for the next 30 days that the tares can be gathered and burned? Talking about that classic parable from Matthew 13 about the wheat and the tares. I know it’s apocalyptic. It sounds intense. ![What if My Ex Uses My Kids to Continue Hurting Me](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/When-My-Ex-Uses-My-Kids-To-Continue-Hurting-Me.webp "when My Ex Uses My Kids to Continue Hurting Me")We’ve also talked so much about boundaries on this podcast. [Healthy boundaries in marriage](/healthy-boundaries/) separate us from harm. No matter what boundaries you use, they can still actually be abusive. So the only thing you can do is separate yourself from the harm. You can’t stop the harm, but boundaries are definitely the most important and basically the only tool in our toolbox to get to safety. Self sufficiency brings us peace. Boundaries bring us as much peace as possible. Even after we have essentially said, get thee hence to our abusers, these children of the wicked one, they still have a way to hurt us through our children. ## SCRIPTURAL HELPS & SAFETY **Anne:** There’s nothing you can do in many cases, when your ex uses the kids to hurt you. We’re not able to command armies like the men in the scriptures to protect their families when they go to war. We don’t have that ability, but we do have an army of angels to help us. One of my favorite scriptures regarding the wheat and the tares says, behold verily, I say unto you, the angels are crying unto the Lord day and night. Who are ready and waiting to be sent forth to reap down the fields. And then another scripture in Mormon 8 verses 40 through 41 says, Yea, why do you build secret abominations to gain and cause that the widows should mourn before the Lord. And also orphans to mourn before the Lord for vengeance upon your heads? Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you, and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you. For he will not suffer their cries any longer. The parable of the wheat and the tares is related to Matthew 24:40. Where the scriptures say, Then shall two be in the field, and one shall be taken, and the other left. ## CALL FOR PRAYERS FOR PEACE & DELIVERANCE **Anne:** Will you pray with me morning and night for the next 30 days? That the tares in our lives, the children of the wicked one that are fully ripe and have the fruits to prove their wickedness. Will be removed from our lives so that we can have peace? Here’s another scripture. In second Nephi 26, three through four, it talks about the wheat and the tares. It says, and great and terrible shall that day be unto the wicked, for they shall perish. And they perish because they cast out the righteous (women). I’m paraphrasing there, and stone them and slay them. ![What if Your Ex is Using Your Kids to Hurt You Even More](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-if-Your-Ex-Uses-The-Kids-To-Hurt-You.webp "What if Your Ex Uses the Kids to Hurt You")Wherefore, the cry of the victims of abuse shall ascend up to God from the ground against them. Verse four, where for all those who are proud and that do wickedly. The day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, for they shall be as stubble. And in Isaiah 35:4 we read, say to them that are of a fearful heart, be strong, fear not, behold, your God will come in vengeance. Even God with a recompense, he will come and save you. Personally speaking, you may have heard several podcasts where I said I was going through a difficult thing. And I didn’t say much about it, because it had to do with a custody case regarding my children. Which I actually lost. So I wanted to share with you that I did everything right. ## PERSONAL CUSTODY STRUGGLES WHEN YOUR EX USES THE KIDS TO HURT YOU **Anne:** I was honest. I was forthright. I said my concerns and the people involved just did not believe me. And I saw the writing on the wall. I lost and settled the case. As a result, my children have a much more difficult custody schedule. Something else that came out of that was that instead of going through my dad. I know I’ve talked for years about how we’ve communicated through my dad, and I’ve done no contact. It became obvious to me that the court did not like that at all. So I switched from my dad being the mediator to using the *Our Family Wizard* app. I don’t have it on my phone, but I do have it on my computer, and I check it every day. That’s another way I don’t get emails, phone calls or texts that trigger me. ![What if Ex Husband Uses Your Kids to Continue to Hurt You](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-if-Ex-Husband-Uses-Your-Kids-To-Hurt-You.webp "What if Ex Husband Uses Your Kids to Hurt You")So that it’s at least separated from me, all the contact goes through *Our Family Wizard*. That’s been working really well. A lot of prayer to figure out how to do this right. It’s been a process. So my custody situation is worse for my children now. Things are very hard, and I’ve just recognized that the court system, the clergy system, the religious system, really doesn’t help victims. We really do have to be our own sheroes. ## REPORTING ABUSE CAN BE UNSAFE **Anne:** If you have physical abuse happening, reporting is a good idea, but it can be unsafe in so many ways. So if you have something criminal to report. I highly recommend you schedule an individual session with Coach Renee, who can help coach you on how to do that with your local authorities. The outcome obviously cannot be guaranteed, but to give you the best experience possible, because it’s going to be traumatic. Regardless, the court system is a mess. I brought Tina Swithin on and Wendy Hernandez, and I’ve just been doing a ton of study on custody things. And really, the conclusion I came to is that God is our only hope, or the universe, or whatever you believe in, but for me it’s God. ![What if the Ex Uses the Kids to Hurt You After You've Separated?](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-if-The-Ex-Uses-The-Kids-To-Hurt-You-After-Separation.webp "What if the Ex Uses the Kids to Hurt You After Separation")Our only hope for justice is through our Heavenly Parents, and our Savior, Jesus Christ. I’ve turned my heart to Him and realize that there isn’t anything worldly that can protect me in this instance. Where I share children with my abuser. The laws require us to maintain contact with the man who harmed us. He continues to lie and abuse, harming us and our children. So after losing this case, me Anne, I don’t know everything you guys know. I don’t know everything. I’m just like you and I’m in the process of learning, but I thought I could figure it out. Like I followed Tina Swithin’s advice. I followed Wendy Hernandez’s advice. I had a good attorney, and I prayed, prayed, and prayed. It still didn’t go the way I wanted. So here are a few things I’ve come to grips with. ## HOPE & FAITH IN GOD **Anne:** One part of me wonders if the reason I didn’t win and why things are harder for my children is because I believe God asked me to start this organization and to podcast here. My ex used the kids to hurt me. Maybe your ex uses the kids to hurt you. He’s asked me to talk to you. In the past when I said, do no contact. And you guys were like, it’s hard to do no contact. The court won’t let me. I was like, no, you can do it. Now I’m thinking, man, I never had that experience when the court was like, no, you can’t do that. Now here I am. So. I wanted to empathize and apologize if I made it seem easy. Because for six years, my custody situation was fantastic, and then my ex got remarried. And with that, he has his new wife to care for the kids. So of course he wanted to take them more, because he doesn’t have to take care of them. ![What if the Ex is Weaponizing the Kids to Hurt You](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-if-The-Ex-Weaponizes-The-Kids-To-Hurt-You.webp "What if the Ex Weaponizes the Kids to Hurt You")Now that I’m here, my heart goes out to all of us who have been through this, and I’m sorry if I made it seem easy before. It’s not, it’s really hard. Also, for all of us who have done everything right, we’ve done every single thing. We have reported crimes, set boundaries, and separated ourselves from the harm. And we’re still not able to actually stop the harm to our children. It is the most excruciating difficult situation. And it’s long term, and it reminds me of the people in the scriptures who are in bondage. The Israelites and in the Book of Mormon, there are Nephites in bondage. This bondage scenario keeps coming to me over and over again. ## WHEN YOUR EX USES THE KIDS TO HURT YOU, PRAY FOR DELIVERANCE **Anne:** So in addition to praying for the tares to be removed from our lives. Rather than [prayer for your husband to change](/prayer-for-my-husband/), might I suggest praying for deliverance? In the scriptures, people in bondage pray for deliverance, knowing that God is their only option. The law can’t help them, and in the Israelites’ experience, the law was the Egyptians. The law ruled them in bondage. So they have no way to get out. I think that’s the case with us. The righteous, currently speaking, are in bondage from the wicked in their homes or out of their homes from their ex husbands. And how do we get delivered? In my opinion, we need to humble ourselves and let God know that He is our only option. That the courts don’t understand this. They think he’s just trying to be a good dad. But that’s not it, and therapists don’t understand he’s just using the children to hurt you. ![Will an Ex Still Use the Kids to Hurt Me](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/When-My-Ex-Uses-My-Kids-To-Hurt-Me.webp "when My Ex Uses My Kids to Hurt Me")That we only have one option. And that is our Savior, who somehow leads us out of bondage, and delivers us. So my suggestion is to pray for deliverance, rather than to pray that your husband will change. Or pray he’ll get it, or see the light, and pray for deliverance. That deliverance can come in two ways. It can come through him repenting. That would actually deliver you from abuse. The second option for deliverance is that he could be removed from your life somehow. That deliverance would be a miracle. I don’t want to put limits on God. Maybe there are 10 other options that I don’t know about, but there are at least two. And I think praying for deliverance is what we need to do and we’ve missed the boat when we pray for something else. ## PRAYING FOR CUSTODY CASE & MY SITUATION GOT WORSE **Anne:** I was praying for my custody case, and my custody situation got worse. My child support situation got worse. There was literally nothing in the last case that I went through that got better. Every single thing I wanted, I didn’t get. After we settled, all the things I thought would happen are happening now. It just shows me that his only concern or interest was winning, not the best interest of the children. How do you negotiate or do the best thing for your kids? If every time you suggest what you think is the best thing, that other person cares about winning. They just want to contradict everything you do or say, it just doesn’t work. It’s a difficult place to be. There is a popular Instagrammer who was abused for a long time. She doesn’t recognize it as abuse, and now she’s super positive about her divorce. ![What if the Ex is Trying to Use the Kids Like Pawns to Hurt You](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-if-The-Ex-Weaponizes-The-Kids-Like-Pawns-To-Hurt-You.webp "What if the Ex Weaponizes the Kids Like Pawns to Hurt You")She is like, I wish him well, and now we’re co-parenting together, and it’s co-parenting with a narcissist. And never acknowledged the abuse or what was happening. She is now going on to live her best life. And I’ve been really triggered by it, actually. Because I want to live the life I want to live. But I’m still faced with this oppression from an abuser. I don’t know, I just have so many feelings about it. I have so many feelings about it, like, if I just think about it differently, will it be different? There’s that like new age thinking, you know, if you’re grateful, that will fix it. But it’s hard to be grateful when your ex is using the kids to hurt you. Here’s a comment similar to this, that we got on the podcast the other day. ## YOUR COMMENTS HELP OTHERS FIND US **Anne:** By the way, please comment on any of the podcast episodes. Every one of your comments helps isolated women find us. I love hearing your feedback, what you think about the episodes, and your experience. If something I say on an episode or something that one of the guests says is something you’ve been through, like if your ex uses the kids to hurt you. Please go to BTR.ORG, find that episode and comment. I want to know if this has been your experience too. So a woman commented and said, “I just wanted to reach out and let you know that I am with you too. Your words struck a chord, especially the parts about your husband lying, even when you had proof, minimizing the situation and not facing the truth. Not knowing everything is driving me crazy. ![Ex Weaponizes the Children to Continue Harming You](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Ex-Is-Using-The-Kids-To-Hurt-You.webp "Ex is Using the Kids to Hurt You")“The scenarios I am now imagining are far worse than any truth could be. And yes, how do we begin to move forward when looking back at our lives is so excruciatingly painful when faced with the cold fact that it was fake. And we were taken for a fool.” “I hope you’re doing okay in this new painful reality we seem to find ourselves in. I read somewhere that we have three possible choices after betrayal: To become bitter, go mad or grow. And I wish you love and strength on your path.” I’m grateful for this comment. One of the things that struck me was these three possible choices after betrayal. This Instagrammer I previously talked about who’s now facing divorce with resilience. She’s pulling her bootstraps up, and happy, and will live her best life. She’ll say things like that. Either become bitter, go mad, or grow. So I’m going to choose growth. ## IT’S OKAY TO BE ANGRY WHEN HE’S HURTING YOU AND YOUR KIDS **Anne:** The woman who commented on this, I’m not sure what her status is. But I think, “You have these three choices,” is a misogynistic trope. I hate to call her out, but I need to point this out when I read that. That this misogynistic trope is that women can’t be bitter or angry, that women must grow through this. I just want to relieve every woman on the planet of the concern about being angry (bitter). If you were not angry about what happened to you, you would go crazy. Like, you would be a robot. I don’t know, something would be wrong with you. Like, it’s not normal to not be angry in this situation. Being angry is a normal reaction when your ex is hurting your kids. One of my goals is to help women embrace their anger to get to emotional and psychological safety. So please don’t ever worry about being bitter. ![Ex Weaponizes the Children to Continue His Harm](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Ex-Weaponizes-The-Kids-To-Hurt-You.webp "Ex Weaponizes the Kids to Hurt You")The anger will dissolve once you are safe. Men generally tell women not to be bitter when women are justified in their anger. And the abuse hasn’t stopped yet. So generally speaking, when a woman is still angry, they’ll say, well, she’s been angry for a long time. So now she’s bitter. And maybe she’s angry because he hasn’t stopped hurting the kids. ## PERMISSION GIVEN TO BE ANGRY & BITTER **Anne:** Even in my case, I’ve figured out how to separate myself from harm well. It’s still happening. I have no legal recourse, no way of stopping it. People saying, “Hey, don’t be a bitter woman, angry woman, or crazy woman.” It’s simply a manipulation tactic to how [abusers gaslight ](https://www.btr.org/how-do-abusers-gaslight/)women into not taking steps to safety. I want to give everyone permission to be angry, be bitter even. It’s not like you just become bitter, go mad or grow. Those are not the three options you have. You have one choice, one path. The path is to get to real, true emotional and psychological safety. ![is Your Ex Using the Children to Continue His Harm of You](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Ex-Is-Using-The-Kids-To-Hurt-You-More.webp "Ex is Using the Kids to Hurt You More")That is your goal. If you’re on that path to safety, you’re angry, great, or you seem crazy to some people because you move out. And they think, your husband’s so great. Why are you moving out? You seem crazy. Fine, the goal, the one possible option for you is to get to safety. I believe the actual distance you put between yourself and the harm, the safer you feel, and the less angry you will feel over time. And that’s because your anger is a gift from God. That will help you take action, and the reason why everybody is afraid of an angry woman is because an angry woman takes action. People do not want women to take action. So, please, anger is the best. I love anger right now. I’m excited about it. Think about what anger can do for you. Can it help you get to safety and feel happy and peaceful? That’s the goal. Anger is not the goal. Think about what spurs you to action? Anger is a great resource God gave us to use when your ex uses the kids to hurt you. ## THE CHARACTER OF ABUSERS **Anne:** Many times in the scriptures, it talks about prophets or people angry with the wickedness of the world. They took action to bring peace for themselves and their families, and that’s awesome. Another thing that we’ve talked about many times on the podcast is that abuse is a behavior. Like when your ex uses the kids to hurt you. If you say look at their behaviors, there’s also this manipulative kindness that can happen, grooming. When they groom to manipulate can leave women wondering [is my husband grooming me](/is-my-husband-grooming-me/)? There’s one other factor here, and it could be that yelling at you is a sign of his abuse. Well, what if you yell at him? Is that a sign of your abuse? Or is that a sign of you trying to stand up for yourself? Are you trying to take action when your ex is still hurting the kids? ![is Your Ex Continually Trying to Use Your Kids to Hurt You](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-if-Your-Ex-Uses-Your-Kids-To-Hurt-You.webp "What if Your Ex Uses Your Kids to Hurt You")I think the better way to think about abuse, rather than behavior, is that it’s a character. An abusive character means even kindness is for an alternate purpose. Even kindness has a goal behind it. It’s not to care for that person. It’s to manipulate or use them. That’s what we’re looking for, is their character the character of manipulative kindness or exploitative privilege? Or is it genuine care and protection for you? I’ve had many conversations about the term entitlement. We know that one of the four pillars of abuse. You can find this infographic in the back of my book, *[Trauma Mama Husband Drama](https://amzn.to/4sbAsAd)*. You can also see that four pillars of abuse floating around on Instagram and Facebook pages of Betrayal Trauma Recovery. And one of the four pillars of abuse is entitlement. This is not a strong enough word. We need a stronger word. ## EXPLOITATIVE PRIVILEGE, WHEN YOUR EX USES THE KIDS TO HURT YOU **Anne:** I came up with the word exploitative privilege. Which means they use their privilege as a man to exploit women. As a woman, you owe me intimacy, dinner, you owe me to take care of the kids, and I don’t need to do any of that. These are the things that I’m entitled to as a man. And I’m going to avail myself of these things. That is exploitative privilege and it’s abusive behavior. People who don’t have an abusive character don’t want to exploit other people. It makes them feel uncomfortable. But people with an exploitative abusive character will sometimes be kind, because it’s goal oriented. So that’s another word that I want you guys to think about. Rather than entitlement, although entitlement can work, and if it works for you, great. This other term exploitative privilege, I think, defines what’s happening more. That it is the exploitative privilege that misogyny affords them. Because of that, all their actions and conversations are through that lens of exploitative privilege, it’s important to try [to prevent exploitation.](/how-to-prevent-exploitation/) https://www.btr.org/how-to-prevent-exploitation/ That is always an abusive situation. Rather than a relationship with someone who sees you both as equals, both your needs are equal, both your responsibilities are equal. Where you’re an equal partner. Someone who sees you as an actual equal partner, not someone to be used, is not abusive. Their character will not be abusive. Even if they yell because you got a flat tire or something, it’s not the yelling necessarily that is the abuse, because some of these abusers never yell. They do everything with a smile on their face, and everything they do is well crafted and looks good. But it’s the goal. What is the goal? When your ex hasn’t stopped hurting the kids. ## MY CURRENT REFLECTIONS **Anne:** So, that’s where I am in my life right now. I’m thinking about the wheat and the tares. I’m thinking about deliverance and I’m thinking about how anger can help us with that. So, will you pray with me for the next 30 days that the tares can be removed from our lives? That we can be delivered? And consider how anger can help us take action to separate ourselves from the wicked. Separate ourselves from those who would do us harm, rather than those who want peace. And use our anger to take action when your ex hurts the kids. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) Because abusers goal isn’t peace. Their goal is control. Our goal is safety and peace. It really is. I don’t know of any woman who necessarily wants to control things. They just want things to be peaceful. I appreciate your prayers. If you have prayed for me, if you knew about the custody thing, now my only hope is through my Savior, Jesus Christ. That my children and I will be delivered, and that through the grace of God, we can live the peaceful life that I want to live. That is promised to the righteous. Then maybe it’s not in this life. I also consider my situation much better than some. So gratitude definitely has a place. I am much more peaceful now than ever. Even though my custody situation is worse. And even though my child support situation is worse. I’m grateful. I’m grateful for what I’ve learned. And I hope our faith will fruit a miracle, and move a mountain. ## MIRACLES COME THROUGH HARD WORK **Anne:** My nine year old son lately has been saying the most interesting things. We’ve been out weeding the garden, for example, and he’ll say, Mom, we have a miracle here. I’ll be like, what are you talking about? And he’s like, we have a miracle of this beautiful garden. Do you know what made the miracle happen? And I’m like, no, what? He’s like weeding, our weeding made a miracle. And he said the same thing about grocery shopping. He’s like, we went grocery shopping, and that made the miracle of this dinner. And I said, so what makes a miracle? And he said, Mom, work, hard work. At this point, we’ve done the work sisters. So many of us have done so much work. We have worked and worked. My hope is that through our prayers and faith, we can rest in the Lord and ask him to deliver us. And ask him to remove these tares from our lives, so we can rest. No, I don’t want us to bring on the second coming if you’re a believer in that. That sounds miserable, and I’d rather be safely dead than experience that. But maybe that’s what God’s waiting for. I don’t know. Being able to share my own experience, has been a blessing to me personally. I’m grateful to have met all of you wonderful sisters along this journey. So thank you. It’s both validating to hear how far I’ve come, and also sad. I’m like I look back and think, wow, I was being harmed and I didn’t even recognize it. If you’re in a dark place and you don’t know how to get out of the chaos your husband or ex-husband is creating, learn about The Living Free Workshop. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Patterns To Look Out for In Your Relationship with Dave Cawley](https://www.btr.org/is-my-husband-abusing-me/) **Published:** May 6, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Anne and Dave talk about the patterns he discovered while hosting 3 Seasons of The Cold Podcast. **Content:** If you’re wondering, “Is my relationship safe?” It’s important to look at patterns of abusive behavior. Physical abuse never happens without emotional abuse, so the first step is to understand the patterns of emotional abuse. To discover if your husband is using any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take our free [emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). > **This Is the Second Episode With Dave Cawley** > [Warning Signs Your Husband Is Dangerous – Susan’s Story With Dave Cawley](https://www.btr.org/signs-your-husband-might-kill-you/ "Signs Your Husband Might Kill You – Susan’s Story") > *Patterns To Look Out For In Your Relationship* (THIS EPISODE) ![Patterns to Look out for in Your Relationship](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Patterns-To-Look-Out-For-In-Your-Relationship.webp "Patterns to Look out for in Your Relationship")## TRANSCRIPT: IS MY HUSBAND ABUSING ME? **Anne:** I’ve invited Dave Cawley, an investigative journalist and host of the *Cold* podcast, back on today’s episode. We have already talked about season one of the Cold Podcast, which we re-aired last week. He calls that episode *Signs your Husband might kill You*. It’s important for every woman experiencing emotional and psychological abuse to recognize it, and know is my husband abusing me? Because physical abuse never happens in a vacuum. Dave and I will talk as if you’ve heard all the *Cold* podcasts, seasons one, two, and three. And if you haven’t, don’t worry. You’ll still benefit from listening to our analysis as we discuss the themes of all three seasons. Welcome Dave. **Dave:** Thank you so much, Anne. I appreciate being with you. ![How Do You Know if Your Husband is Abusing You](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-Do-You-Know-if-your-Husband-Is-Abusing-You.webp "How Do You Know if Your Husband is Abusing You")**Anne:** So the three seasons of the Cold podcast, Dave, you cover in season one, the murder of Susan Powell. In season two, the Murder of Joyce Yost. And in season three, the murder of Sheree Warren. And you started season three by introducing us to a man named Cary Hartman. You describe his abusive behavior toward women in the form of what some people might call prank phone calls. Law enforcement called it an obscene phone call. Really, these phone calls abused the women who received them. Even if they didn’t realize it. And even if they didn’t define it that way. Can you talk about why these abusive phone calls define Cary’s character? **Dave:** Sheree Warren disappears in October of 1985. She was dating this man, Cary Hartman at the time, and at first Cary Hartman is not on the radar of the investigators. ## CARY HARTMAN’S CRIMINAL ACTIVITIES **Dave:** Police identified Cary Hartman as a suspect in a series of home invasion assaults a year and a half later. Where he literally breaks into women’s homes and attacks them, raping them. And so I actually start this story way before we ever meet Sheree with Cary Hartman’s first arrest in 1971. Where he makes one of these calls, he tells this woman, basically a threat, that if he she will be harmed if he doesn’t get what he wants. And to your point, Anne, she was a victim. He abused abused her, right? **Anne:** Yeah, at the time you interviewed her, did she recognize she was a victim of his abuse? Or did she just think like, oh, a criminal called me and I helped the police identify this guy? ![How Do You Know if Your Husband is Abusive](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-Do-You-Know-If-Your-Husband-Is-Abusive.webp "How Do You Know if Your Husband is Abusive")**Dave:** At this point in her life, she was I wanna say about 86 years old when I interviewed her. Heidi Posnien, she’s an amazing woman, but her life experience was so different. I mean, she literally survived Berlin at the end of World War II as a child. And so her perception of how much risk she may or may not have been in at the time. I think it is different than you or I in the same situation. And I think like many victims of abuse, she doesn’t like thinking about whether her husband is abusing her. When I sat down and interviewed her about it, it brought up bad memories even after all these years. It brought up emotions that she was uncomfortable with. You do this kind of thing. ## SYSTEMIC ISSUES IN RECOGNIZING ABUSE **Dave:** Every day Anne, talking to people who have been through abuse. You know how difficult those conversations are. I was grateful Heidi was willing to take us there for the story. Because it allows the listener to begin to see the bigger picture. Like, what are the systemic things that are taking place in our society? That caused these kinds of things to be brushed off? It’s a minor crime, voyeurism, telephone harassment and nothing serious. **Anne:** He has all these abusive episodes. Law enforcement doesn’t define them that way. There’s a difference between an obscene phone call, which is what they had written on their documents, right? And an abusive phone call. Like when people say something like, one out of every four women are domestic abuse victims in the state of Utah. Then women wonder is my husband abusing me and if so how do I [divorce an abusive husband](https://www.btr.org/divorcing-an-abusive-husband/ "divorce an abusive husband")? They’re not saying a man abuses one out of every four women in the state of Utah. **Dave:** Yeah, that’s a great point. I think, the investigators at the time, thought they caught him. He’s shamed, he’ll change. And if you have that perspective in law enforcement, you’ve gotta step back and look at it and say pattern wise, like what is happening here? And with Cary Hartman, we know these phone calls escalated over time. He ends up calling thousands of women in a harassing way. Where he would try to get women to talk about their bodies, their clothing, in a way that titillated him. It’s still today thousands of victims who will never receive any measure of justice, and many probably brush it off. Eh, I just hung up on the guy. ## CHALLENGES IN ADDRESSING ABUSE **Dave:** And I think there is definitely a need to, at least from the perspective of a journalist. To think about how we talk about those kinds of situations, because we have to be objective. We have to be as unbiased as possible, but I think there’s also room for journalists to call a spade a spade. These are the actions that Cary Hartman took and you’re right, they are abusive. Let’s just call it what it is. **Anne:** Yeah, I’m reminded of an interview I did with a man who spent, 10 years in prison for abuse. He considered himself an addict. And he said, I acted out in my addiction. That is how he described it. And I said, well, there’s another word for that. It’s that you were an abuser. And he was like, oh, I never thought about it like that. Women think that they can figure out [how to deal with an addict husband ](https://www.btr.org/how-to-deal-with-an-addict-husband/)not understanding that it’s abuse. ![How to Tell if My Husband is Abusive Toward Me](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Tell-If-My-Husband-Is-Abusive-Toward-Me.webp "How to Tell if My Husband is Abusive Toward Me")**Dave:** The, the focus on himself rather than on the person he was harming. **Anne:** Yeah, If he’s an abuser, he hurts someone else, rather than he is an addict. He just acted out in his addiction. **Dave:** Right, that’s a really good point. **Anne:** Right? **Dave:** I mean, part of the process for somebody who goes to prison for this kind of crime. If they will ever be paroled, it is usually that they have to go through some kind of therapy or treatment program. The DSM tailors this for mental health professionals trying to diagnose people. **Anne:** It’s not about their victim. The DSM is thinking maybe we can get him to stop having this. **Dave:** Paraphilic disorder. ## SEX OFFENDER THERAPY & ITS EFFECTIVENESS **Anne:** There we go. Maybe we can get him to stop doing that, rather than maybe we should figure out how to protect other people from this person. And at least from all the victims I have interviewed, it has not worked. In fact, the domestic violence shelter will tell you that most of the time an abuser rehabilitation class, for example, makes them worse. **Dave:** There is an argument that in some ways it might teach them to just be better about hiding it. **Anne:** Exactly, and many accuse their victim of being an abuser, and then it gets confusing. **Dave:** They learn all the language. They learn the terminology. **Anne:** Exactly. **Dave:** As far as the Sheree Warren case with Cary Hartman, as long as we’re talking about treatment. I mean, I think an interesting thing to note is that Cary Hartman ends up going to prison for 33 years in these cases. And during that time, they repeatedly require him to go through offender therapy. He needs to pass that. It is as a condition for release on parole. **Dave:** They release Cary Hartman on parole in March of 2020. He got out of prison. And during the next four years, I lived in our community here in Utah, where I live and work. He was recently returned to prison because it was discovered he had been stalking a woman. According to the Utah Board of Pardons and Parole while he was out. ## CARY HARTMAN’S PAROLE & RECIDIVISM **Dave:** So you have to stop and say, wait a minute. Did those 30 plus years in prison and repeat trips through offender therapy. Did they help Cary Hartman not harm people while back out in society? And it appears the answer to that question is no. So I wanna hope that those systems can work, but in this case specifically, it seems like it did not. **Anne:** And me listening to that, at least the way you laid out the facts. As an abuse expert, I came to the conclusion that he figured out what the parole board wanted to hear. Victims wondering if their husband is abusive, might know their husband is saying what they want to hear. He went to offender therapy and eventually learned the words he needed to say. And he parrots that back to the parole board to their satisfaction, in order to be paroled. ![How to Tell if My Husband is Abusing Me](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Tell-If-My-Husband-is-Abusing-Me.webp "How to Tell if My Husband is Abusing Me")I was so grateful they kept him in prison for so long. Because they could have let him out sooner. So that was a good part of the story, I thought. **Dave:** Yeah, in conversations with law enforcement. People who investigated that case, or in the legal profession who tried that case in court, that came up repeatedly. They said, look, in a homicide, or let’s say a manslaughter, somebody who kills another person, they might do 10 years and get out. The fact that Cary Hartman was in for more than 30 years was a big deal, and the reason he was in so long is because he refused to accept responsibility. And like you said, as a listener, I think it’s a fair takeaway to listen to all those years of him going before the parole board. And just slowly creeping forward. ## IS MY HUSBAND ABUSIVE? LEARNING FROM OFFENDER PROGRAMS & COUNSELING **Dave:** The little bit of accountability he would take until he reached that sweet spot where they said, okay, that’s enough. We’ll let you out. **Anne:** Cary Hartman is a scary guy, but how much scarier would he have been had he learned faster? Let’s say he had gone to offender therapy sooner and taken accountability sooner. And sounded better sooner. He could have been let out sooner. The scariest ones to me are the ones who know that’s what they need to sound like. In terms of my listeners husbands, that’s what they sound like in couple therapy. Or they might sound like that to clergy. And clergy might be like, yes, he’s repented. How do I help my listeners see, is this someone who is now safe or are you currently in danger? It’s so hard to identify if your husband is abusing you. At least, in danger of being emotionally and psychologically abused. In danger of an STD, being lied to is a concern when you’re supposed to trust. **Dave:** So if I can segue off of that. In season one of *Cold*. When we talked about the case of Josh and Susan Powell, so this is a married couple. They’ve got two young sons, and there’s this extreme strife going on in their marriage. Susan is upset that Josh is controlling the money. He’s controlling her ability to spend time with friends and family, and she tries to drag him into therapy. ## DOUG LOVELL & MANIPULATION **Dave:** She tries to drag him in front of clergy. We actually have evidence from writings that Susan left behind after she was killed. She talks about, Josh says, if I call the police, if I call 9 1 1 and say he’s threatening me. When the police get here, he’s gonna be calm, I’m gonna be hysterical. And he’ll make me the one who’s irrational. She was conscious of these very things. Moving forward, when we entered season two in *Cold. T*here’s this story about Joyce Yost being murdered by this man, Doug Lovell. Doug Lovell goes to prison. He’s still in prison and had been sentenced to death twice. He’s had his death sentence overturned twice, and part of the reason is because since he went to prison. He has built relationships with clergy, people who go to prison to work with inmates, to help them hopefully become better people. ![How Do I Know if My Husband is Abusing Me](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-Do-I-know-If-My-Husband-Is-Abusing-Me.webp "How Do I Know if My Husband is Abusing Me")They prepare them to be released. Doug Lovell will not be released. He is, as I said, serving a death sentence or in limbo while they figure out whether his death sentence will go forward. But those relationships and the way he talks to clergy have allowed him to essentially create a group of supporters. who, when he goes to court, when he goes to trial, are willing to stand up in front of a judge or a jury and say, I believe Doug Lovell is a man with a good heart. I believe he’s a man who’s changed. I believe he deserves a second chance. What we know is Doug Lovell murdered Joyce Yost and has refused to return her body. ## DOUG LOVELL’S LEGAL BATTLES **Anne:** Right, flat out manipulation Doug Lovell used to convince some people that he has a “good heart.” The evidence would be that he tells people exactly where that body is, which he has not done. **Dave:** Right, that’s how you show true remorse in my mind, yeah. **Anne:** In our community, we actually call this meatloafing. It’s from The Meatloaf song I would do anything for love, but I won’t do that. **Dave:** This is interesting, and it gets into the weeds of the court case. Lovell, there’s no question he’s responsible. He did admit to it, but that was part of a plea deal in 1993, where he was trying to get a chance for life with parole. At the time, Utah did not have a law that allowed life without parole, so the choice was life with parole or the death sentence. And he thought, if I admit to it, there’s this plea deal on the table. And I will have a chance of getting out of prison. Before the case actually went to sentencing, though, the law changed, and the prosecutors pulled life with parole off the table. And at that point Lovell said, I don’t want to plead guilty anymore. And this is part of why that case ended up going through appeal after appeal. The death sentence ended up being rescinded because the appeals courts determined that Lovell was not appropriately advised of the rights he was giving up. So he goes back to trial in 2015. The problem is that he’s admitted on the record that he killed Joyce Yost. That fact is not in dispute. ## TACTICS OF ABUSIVE HUSBANDS: MANIPULATIVE LETTERS & EMAILS **Dave:** How do you go in front of a jury and say, yes, I killed this person. But and that’s where these religious leaders came in. They went before the court and said, in all those years, Lovell is a changed man. **Anne:** Listening to the manipulative letters Doug Lovell sent those religious leaders was surreal. Because they sound almost exactly like the manipulative letters that so many of the victims I talk to receive. In fact, I have actually created a workshop to show women the patterns of these types of manipulative letters. It’s in my [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). So listeners, if you want to learn more about that, click that link. I show women how abusive it is, so they can identify the abuse. And then how to respond in terms of Doug Lovell. It was very unnerving to hear that these religious leaders fell for this type of manipulation. In fact, judges fall for this type of manipulation too. ![How Do I Know My Husband is Abusing Me](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Know-My-Husband-Is-Abusing-Me.webp "How Do I Know My Husband is Abusing Me")There are cases in Utah where the abusive man is in jail, but he writes manipulative and abusive letters to his kids, and the victim is court ordered to show these manipulative, abusive letters to her own children. Which to talk about Susan Powell again. I mean, she was killed, but Josh Powell, her murderer, still had parental rights. **Dave:** Yeah, so let me set the table for that a little bit. Josh Powell, after his wife, “disappears” in 2009. Within a couple of weeks, he takes his two sons, Charlie and Braden, with him. He leaves Utah and goes to Washington state. And he lives under his father’s roof. A few things happen there. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## WASHINGTON STATE DOES NOTHING **Dave:** The West Valley City Police Department has a circumstantial case that Josh murdered his wife, and that’s getting stronger as time goes forward. What they don’t have is direct physical evidence. Like a body linking Josh to Susan’s death. And so in the absence of that, the prosecutors would not give police an arrest warrant. The police are aware that these two boys are potentially at risk. Early in the investigation, a detective from Utah contacts the Child Protective Services Agency in Washington and says, can you intervene in any way? And the state of Washington tells the West Valley City Police Department, unless there’s an allegation of like ongoing or immediate abuse happening, that’s not our job. **Anne:** I mean, the likelihood that he killed his wife is like a hundred percent. So he’s a murderer, but he’s an appropriate caregiver for children. **Dave:** Right, unless he’s charged and arrested, they don’t intervene, was the position at the time. **Anne:** This letter of the law is a thing, and then there’s like, how do we actually protect people? I mean, someone who kills their wife is an abuser, but they’re not defining him as an abuser. **Dave:** And this was the insidiousness of Josh Powell. Josh Powell was good at cloaking abuse in a way that it didn’t look like abuse from the outside, right? I think you and I rationally can sit back and say the act of murdering his children’s mother is abuse of those children until the police can prove it. The Child Protective Services workers in Washington weren’t going to do anything about it. ## OPERATION TSUNAMI & STEVE POWELL’S ARREST **Dave:** And so the investigation for her murder is mostly here in Utah. But there’s an aspect that’s taking place in Washington, and it culminates in the latter part of 2011. Because there’s a big police operation that we learn about in *Cold* season one called Operation Tsunami. And part of this whole investigation is the service of a search warrant at Josh’s dad’s house in Washington. When police go in there searching, they discover Steve Powell was obsessed with his daughter-in-law, Susan. And they find all kinds of voyeur materials focused on Susan and other women. Steve Powell had been recording women without their knowledge, and among those were two neighbor girls who were underage. Under the definition of the law, this is treated as CSAM. Steve Powell is arrested at that time for two crimes, voyeurism and CSAM. The state of Washington says, wait a minute. These two boys, Charlie and Braden, were in that house. This is an unsafe environment for those children. So they take temporary protective custody of Charlie and Braden. So it took the investigation to that point where there was a catalyst. There was an event that took place with the discovery of those voyeuristic materials. That triggered the state of Washington to take action. Once those boys were in temporary protective custody, that didn’t mean they were going to stay there. Josh immediately starts a campaign to get custody of his kids back. And he was actually within a step or two of clearing every hurdle that the court put in front of him and was probably going to get custody of his children back. ## IDENTIFYING AN ABUSIVE HUSBAND: JOSH POWELL’S CUSTODY BATTLE **Dave:** And then police in Utah who were under a court seal. They couldn’t talk publicly about the case, even to other police agencies. They get permission from a judge to share evidence with the state of Washington family court, they send this information up. And it’s troubling enough that the judge in Washington says, before we give Josh Powell custody of his children, we are going to require that he undergo a psychological evaluation. So they’re going to do a very invasive psychological evaluation. Looking into, is there anything happening with Josh in his mind that would put the kids in danger? Now, during this period, the court allowed Josh to visit the children. At first, the visit is required in a neutral third party secure environment. But over time, he convinces the court that he’s safe. That they can allow his kids to visit him at a home he had rented. And the judge did not revisit that idea, After this major change, right? ![is Husband Abusing Me](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Is-Husband-Abusing-Me.webp "is Husband Abusing Me")Requiring Josh to go through this invasive psychological evaluation. And within a matter of days during a court authorized supervised visit, we know Josh locks the supervised visitation coordinator out of the house. He murders his sons, a horrific ending to this entire investigation. They definitely know that Susan knew her husband was abusing her. She knew the answer was yes. What about Susan’s parents? What could they do in the aftermath of that horrible event? They sued the state of Washington, the agency, and the individual social workers involved in that case. The case wound through the courts for a long time, more than 10 years before it’s resolved. ## SUSAN’S PARENTS SUE WASHINGTON STATE **Dave:** The individual social workers were deemed immune because they were state employees and working on behalf of the state in that capacity. They couldn’t be held individually liable, but the agency could. Susan’s parents ended up taking that case to trial. So a jury in Pierce County, Washington hears weeks and weeks of testimony. About all the details of the ins and outs of this back and forth with the criminal investigation with the family court in the state of Washington. Long story short, they end up giving a verdict. And they say the state of Washington was negligent in allowing the children to be in Josh Powell’s custody while he went through this process. And they awarded Susan’s parents $100 million, give or take in damages. Of course, nothing that helps them bring the kids back. But their hope was that it would inspire some kind of change. Part of the reason we know as much as we do about what happened in the state of Washington behind the scenes is the law there. It required an inquest when Charlie and Braden were murdered in 2012. And the law also required the results of that inquest to be made public. ![Patterns To Look Out For In Your Relationship](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/99iqbYMJdXo/maxresdefault.jpg) Transparency is one part of it, but the action to say, okay, these are the things that failed. Let’s fix those, is the next step. And I think that’s where often we see agencies and individuals drop the ball. They can acknowledge that yes, a murdered child is a bad outcome. But what are you going to do about it? That’s where we often fall flat. ## CURRENT STATE OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE SERVICES **Anne:** Just recently, within the last couple months, there’s a victim. Her perpetrator has 27 protective order violations. This is in the state of Utah right now. So she reported one of these violations in Salt Lake City, and they didn’t do anything about it. So the department over that heard about it somehow, and gave her a call. Now this is a victim who’s been working with the domestic violence shelter Safe Harbor for more than three years. And she can’t even divorce this guy. They’re still in custody court, but the department that oversees things interviewed her and did a lethality assessment. They called her back like a week later and said, we have the findings for you. You’re at a really high risk. Holy cow, this is bad. And we’ve come to the conclusion that you need services from the domestic violence shelter. **Dave:** That’s it? **Anne:** And she’s like, what? I’ve already been going to Safe Harbor for three years. That’s the state of domestic violence services, it’s like going around in circles. There’s how it’s supposed to work, and then there’s how it’s actually working. A lot of victims will tell you that when they tell other people that the system isn’t protecting them. People generally assume you must have done something wrong. Like maybe you didn’t fill out the right form. How else can someone prove that their [husband is toxic.](https://www.btr.org/is-my-husband-toxic/ "husband is toxic.") Not realizing you can do everything right and still not get the help you need. It is so difficult when trying to identify if their husband is abusive. And that’s such a fine line for me as an educator. We need to give women hope that they can move toward a better life. But also be aware of all the obstacles they might face. ## JOURNALISTIC RESPONSIBILITY & IMPACT OF EDUCATING ON ABUSIVE HUSBANDS **Dave:** And Anne, I think about this a lot, because from my perspective as a journalist, I tell these stories. Part of the reason to do it is to educate, but there’s a parasocial relationship between myself and a listener. Somebody listens to me for hours talking about these cases. And I’ve had the experience many times of somebody listening, going, oh my gosh. What he’s talking about, like this story, this is my life. And reach out to me, and in many cases, they’re asking for just somebody to hear them. But other times they’re more specific, like, help me, you seem like an expert. You seem to know what’s going on. What do I do in this situation? And I feel so ill-equipped. I want to help. So I’ll try to connect them with domestic violence resources, and I have to ask myself, did I actually help that person? It’s so hard. **Anne:** Yeah, here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery we have [Group Sessions](/group), and [Individual Sessions](/individual), and [Workshops for women to learn safety strategies](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). Whether they’re married or not. All of these tools can help a woman to know if her husband is abusing her. I mean, it’s my mission to ensure that they get the help they need. Speaking of abusive partners in both Season One and Season Three of the *Cold Podcast*, an abusive partner plays a role. In season one it’s Josh Powell, and in season three, Chuck Warren is an abuser. He married Sheree Warren. I can say that because I can see the markers and the things that you reported. He is also a suspect, and in every single season, every single perpetrator. ## PATTERNS OF OBJECTIFYING WOMEN **Anne:** And Chuck Warren as well, has a history or patterns of objectifying women. With Cary Hartman, there ares tons of evidence of the obscene phone calls and assaults. Like what was going on in the eighties in Ogden, by the way. Like that was wild. I was like, holy cow. I mean, season three, there are three serial rapists in Ogden. Anyway, all the guys in seasons one, two, and three show a pattern of objectifying women. Can you talk about that? **Dave:** Yeah, all of them are different in their own ways. Josh, when I started looking into his background, his youth, and his relationship with Susan. There are a lot of indicators that Josh was, in many ways, wasn’t interested in physical touch.. But Susan, his wife, would write about this. He wouldn’t hold her hand, he wouldn’t kiss her. He would always find an excuse for it, I’m gonna get sick. So he had something going on, right? And the problem with Josh is the evidence I talked about earlier. They sent it to Washington State in the child custody proceeding. They found it on a computer in the Powell home. The belief of the investigators at the time was that it was material belonging to Josh. What we know is Josh Powell’s father was absolutely deviant in his views toward women generally, and to Susan specifically. There was a dynamic back and forth between Josh and his dad. Josh was aware of his father’s inappropriate advances on Susan, his wife, and he did nothing to stop it. ## DOUG LOVELL, CARY HARTMAN & CHUCK WARREN **Anne:** A lack of interest in your partner is definitely a characteristic of excessive exploitative content use. This is one thing help to know if you are experiencing abuse from your husband. Because they’re masturbating all the time, and they’re not into it with a real person. So even though that is a marker, in Josh’s case, there was no evidence. Dave: Directly for him, you can understand why the police would believe it, given what you said. **Anne:** Yeah, exactly. **Dave:** Season two and season three, both take place in Ogden, Utah in 1985. I find it fascinating that Doug Lovell, who first assaulted and then murdered Joyce Yost, operates at the same time. Cary Hartman, we know, is attacking women. And you’ve got Sheree divorcing Chuck Warren at the time. In a lot of ways, very similar to Susan Powell, right? There’s a custody issue going on. Chuck Warren, we later find out, was soliciting who are also victims, right? And did Sheree know about that? Probably not, so he’s lying to her, presumably, which is a form of abuse. There was a lot of that kind of dynamic going on, and part of the reason with Sheree’s case in particular. I wanted to focus on the immediate aftermath of Sheree’s disappearance. You know, the first days, weeks, months, her estranged husband, Chuck Warren, looks like Josh Powell. He looks like a really strong suspect. He’s not forthcoming. There are stories about him having done a horrific act of physical abuse against his first wife. Sharee’s his second wife. You can understand why law enforcement is looking at Chuck. ## FINDING JUSTICE FOR SHEREE WARREN **Dave:** Holy cow, this looks like all those abuse markers, and it’s the same story we’ve seen. Then all of a sudden, Cary Hartman comes into orbit over here, and you realize Sheree had this unlucky confluence of bad men in her life. If Chuck Warren was a more standup guy. If he was a better husband. I think the investigation would’ve more quickly focused on Cary and some steps that I believe or suspect Cary took to potentially obscure his activities. Around the time that Sheree disappeared. They would’ve looked at it much sooner than 15 years later, as we see happen. I’m not somebody who likes to stand up on a soapbox and say, every man is a bad person. **Anne:** Me either. We do need to help victims figure out if their husband is abusive. **Dave:** But I also like to stand up and say, guys, we gotta do better than this. Even if you are not harming your wife, your partner, you probably know somebody who is. You talked about those statistics, the one in three or one in four women who will experience domestic violence in their lives. If I can turn that around from like a man’s perspective. How many of the guys I would consider friends are at home behind closed doors doing those kinds of things? And what behaviors am I maybe seeing but choosing not to react to? Or am I just putting those blinders like we all have a role in seeing it for what it is, calling it what it is, and standing up to it. ## GRATITUDE & ACKNOWLEDGMENT **Anne:** Dave thank you so much for all of your hard work to bring these really important stories to light. And helping victims identify if their husband is abusive. **Dave:** You’ve been a supporter and booster, if I can say that for a long time. That’s not lost on me. You’re doing the work in the trenches. I mean, what I say when I talk about how hard that is. And I just hope for your sake, that you find ways to cleanse yourself of it from time to time, because it’s so hard. So thank you for the work you do and all the women you’ve helped, honestly. This kind of work takes a toll on you. And while I feel a strong obligation to continue building on the work done in these three seasons of this *Cold podcast*, I also need to watch out for my own emotional and mental health. I’m hopeful I can again, as you say, help educate people so that we don’t have to keep telling these kinds of stories. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [The Long-Term Effects of Emotional Abuse You Need to Know](https://www.btr.org/long-term-effects-of-emotional-abuse-in-relationships/) **Published:** May 13, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** If you’ve endured repeated betrayal from your husband, you’re not alone. Here's what you need to know. **Content:** If you’ve endured repeated betrayal from your husband, you’re not alone. Many women in our community have faced the long-term effects of emotional abuse in their marriage. Florence, a member of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community, a victim of her husband’s emotional abuse for over 40 years, shares her story. [If you relate, consider attending on of our daily online support groups TODAY](https://www.btr.org/group/). ![What Evidence for Emotional Abuse Long Term Effects](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-Evidence-For-Emotional-Abuse-Long-Term-Effects.webp "What Evidence for Emotional Abuse Long Term Effects")## THE LONG-TERM EFFECTS OF EMOTIONAL ABUSE Being in an emotionally abusive relationship for a prolonged period often leaves women feeling deep loss and regret. We tend to reflect on the years spent enduring mistreatment, unaware of the full extent of our husband’s harmful behavior. This realization can lead to feelings of missed opportunities, wondering what life might have been like. ![What Evidence for Emotional Abuse Effects](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-Evidence-For-Emotional-Abuse-Effects.webp "What Evidence for Emotional Abuse Effects")The long-term emotional impact includes grief over lost time and the struggle to reclaim their sense of self and hope for the future. The effects of emotional abuse, can be felt long term and include: - Panic - Grief - Devastation - Anger - Fury - Fear - Terror - Apathy - Guilt - Shame - Loneliness [To know if you’re experiencing any one of the 19 types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/) ![Can You Prove Longterm Effects of Emotional Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Can-You-Prove-LongTerm-Effects-of-Emotional-Abuse.webp "Can You Prove Longterm Effects of Emotional Abuse")## TRANSCRIPT: LONG-TERM EFFECTS OF EMOTIONAL ABUSE IN RELATIONSHIPS **Anne:** I’m honored to have a member of our community on the podcast today. We’re going to call her Florence. She’s 75 years old. She’s experienced over 40 years of [betrayal trauma](https://www.btr.org/what-are-the-4-stages-of-betrayal-trauma/). She discovered her husband’s infidelity just 3 days after their wedding. She is strong, insightful and courageous. Florence, can you talk about your first reaction finding out about your husband’s double life? ![Can You Prove Effects of Emotional Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Can-You-Prove-Effects-of-Emotional-Abuse.webp "Can You Prove Effects of Emotional Abuse")**Florence:** My first reaction was devastation and fear. Back in those days, women didn’t have the same options as they do today. I had just moved my two daughters and myself to a new location where I had no friends or associates. And very little opportunity to find gainful employment to support myself. In doing so, I had cut off any support systems that I might’ve had, and I was really on my own. Additionally, I didn’t know that this was the start of long-term effects of emotional abuse. **Anne:** So were you married before this? **Florence:** I was, this was my second marriage. And I had two daughters; they were five and eight. I went deep into a place of trying to comprehend. At that time in my life, I didn’t call myself a spiritual person. In fact, I did not have a religious persuasion, and I found myself searching. To do that, I did what I think many people do. What I’ve read is that they explore with their spouse. And try to figure out what their spouse is looking for and needing. And of course, that leads one into probably the darkest places on earth, because it’s a world of debauchery. It didn’t take me long to figure out that was not for me. ## “HE APOLOGIZED & SWORE THAT HE WOULD NEVER MAKE THOSE CHOICES AGAIN.” **Florence:** I had to make a heartfelt decision and tell my husband that I could not live that kind of life. In fact, it was not the right thing for me at all. It hurt my heart. It didn’t help my heart, and he apologized and swore he would never make those bad choices again. And we started over until the next time. And the next time I became aware of his activities, I knew enough to go for help. Then we both went through a lot of counseling. It came trailing back in. And the problem was that I didn’t realize he had regressed back to those activities. I was only experiencing the negative behavior and the abuse. ![Can Emotional Abuse Make You Sensitive Long Term Effects](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Can-Emotional-Abuse-Make-You-Sensitive-Long-Term-Effects.webp "Can Emotional Abuse Make You Sensitive Long Term Effects")Which after 20, 25, 30 years of marriage, you get to the point where you do your own thing, you make the best of it. Because I experienced the long-term effects of emotional abuse in my marriage. And if somebody wants to be a damn fool and act like a child. Let them be a damn fool and act like a child. You just can’t let that run your life. **Anne:** Did you know you were being abused? Or did you think of it as … **Florence:** I knew I was abused and I knew he was sick. I’ve been doing a lot of reflecting, because the last year has been a year of repeated difficulties and such a challenge. And I remember when my youngest daughter was 15 years old, and she and I took a trip out west. ## “I BECAME AWARE OF THE FACT THAT NOBODY WOULD BELIEVE ME.” **Florence:** We visited a childhood friend of mine. And he asked me face-to-face, “What’s wrong? You’re not right.” I said, “Well, my husband isn’t right, he’s sick.” I didn’t elaborate on it. How could I? I didn’t have the words for it. I remember thinking many years later, the only people I could tell were people I’d known for a long time. Who actually had some confidence in me, because I became aware that nobody would believe me. People will say, “Oh, he’s so charming. Oh, he’s such a sweet man.” And he is. He’s a beguiling, needful child. What do you do? Go out on the street and bang a drum and say, I’m being emotionally abused by a man who can’t show me love. Or who can’t relate to me. No, you can’t do that. Nobody will believe you. So you try to create wellness within a challenging situation. And that’s what I did for years until it all broke open. For the last 10 years, I thought he had frontal temporal lobe disorder. It’s the second time I’ve misdiagnosed him in my life. This is the reality of [betrayal trauma in relationships](https://www.btr.org/betrayal-trauma-in-relationships/ "betrayal trauma in relationships"). ![Effects of Emotional Abuse Stop](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Effects-of-Emotional-Abuse-Stop.webp "Effects of Emotional Abuse Stop")So obviously I’m not much of a psychotherapist. But because of his anger, I felt his actions were typical of frontal temporal lobe dementia. In fact, I actually got him to go to a neurologist. It was embarrassing and a waste of time. It’s not Alzheimer’s, I’m right? It’s frontal temporal lobe. Well, I wasn’t right. Yeah, it’s very hard when you get older. I was suffering from his long-term emotional abuse. Things don’t work the way they used to, when it isn’t what it was when you were kids. But every now and then you get the opportunity to enjoy one another to some extent. ## LONG-TERM EFFECTS OF EMOTIONAL ABUSE: EMBRACING HONESTY **Florence:** And he gave me an STD, and that was the rude awakening. He had been back to his old tricks. **Anne:** Oh, I am so sorry. That must have been so shocking and devastating. Hopefully, it brings you some kind of solace to know that you were resisting his abuse. The entire time you were going for help. And the professionals and experts you went to didn’t give you the right information. I’m so sorry. The extent of the suffering we go through for years, and years can’t be underestimated. You mentioned that as you got older, and it just continued to happen over and over, the long-term effects of his emotional abuse resulted in you detaching. Is that where you are now? I ![How Do You Prove Effects of Emotional Abuse in Court](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-Do-You-Prove-Effects-of-Emotional-Abuse-In-Court.webp "How Do You Prove Effects of Emotional Abuse in Court")**Florence:** It’s been like a fast forward of an earlier movie of everything that ever occurred. I go in a circle, and some days I am distraught and in pain, and feel sorry for myself. And then I go through days where I am so angry. It’s like a circular thing that goes around. I’ve been able to grapple with this, because now I can be honest with our friends and family. And everybody knows. The freedom to be honest and forthright makes it possible to handle. **Anne:** Yeah, having the [best support for betrayal trauma](https://www.btr.org/best-support-for-betrayal-trauma/ "best support for betrayal trauma") is important. What thoughts do you have for women who’ve discovered this five years after your wedding or 10 years after your wedding? What would you say to yourself? [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## IF FLORENCE COULD GO BACK & TALK WITH HER YOUNGER SELF **Florence:** You can’t help them. You can’t fix them. This has been my counter argument to my husband in all his attempts to heal himself. As it was convenient now that you’re 80 and impotent, you made these choices. Also, they have a responsibility, and that responsibility is to their partner and their families. As somebody who suffered from it my whole life, I’m saying, you can’t give me back the past 20 years. Because I didn’t know you were doing this. I knew you were being a jerk. But if I had known he went back to deviant practices, I wouldn’t have stayed. I might’ve had the chance to build a life with someone who might genuinely care and show real regard. And I miss that, and nobody can give it back to me. That’s where the anger comes from. Although many professionals told me, oh, you need counseling. So I tried that across all mental health professionals. But I found that most therapists are not equipped to deal. And they tend to try to use behavior modification, which they’ve learned somewhere in graduate school. If you do this, then he’ll do that. And if you do that … **Anne:** Right. ![Proving Effects of Emotional Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Proving-Effects-of-Emotional-Abuse.webp "Proving Effects of Emotional Abuse")**Florence:** It doesn’t work. And I went to four sessions with one therapist, and I just walked out. I said, this isn’t good for me. I’m getting angry about this. So I quit going. ## WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE ME? **Florence:** And I’ve also challenged my husband on the fact that the addict thing is very self-absorbing. They’re all involved in taking care of themselves and getting better and praise God. And you know, it’s like wait a minute you’re still just thinking about yourself. Where does that leave me? I’m still dealing with the long-term emotional abuse . And it still leaves me on my own. It still leaves me wanting and, you know, wanting … **Anne:** Yeah, I’m so sorry, awful. Having experienced this emotional abuse long-term, right, your whole life. And then not having anybody identify it for you. And having the professionals you went to for help blame you. Then make you part of the problem. When you found [Betrayal Trauma Recovery when you found this podcast](https://www.btr.org/podcast/), how did you feel? ## LONG-TERM EFFECTS OF EMOTIONAL ABUSE: KNOWING I’M NOT ALONE **Florence:** It was good to know that I wasn’t alone. Most people just don’t get it. They think your husband is a philanderer. Well, of course they are. But there’s so much more to it than that. The best thing that’s happened to me and the last year is the ability, to be honest, to speak my truth. Though I am still sad about the loss I’ve had in my life, years wasted because of long-term emotional abuse in my marriage. There are people with worse lives. But I think people need to reevaluate who they are and what they want. And I do think that many women, myself included, were raised with low expectations and a low sense of self. So we didn’t know when we weren’t being treated well. We may have known it, but we didn’t think we had any right to do anything about it. ![The Long Term Effects Of A Bad Marriage](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/rnqs_ebBe6E/maxresdefault.jpg) **Anne:** Well, I’m glad you know now that you are important and your needs matter, and deserve respect and care. Living in that alternate reality. That you lived in for so long is exactly why I wrote [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). Click on that link to get more information. So that women can see reality. That you are incredible, strong, capable and powerful. To get more information, go to that link. And thank you so much Florence, you are brave and amazing. We all stand on your shoulders and the shoulders of the women who came before us. So thank you so much. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast **Tags:** emotional abuse --- ### [Urgent: Don’t Ignore These 5 Stages of Anger After Infidelity](https://www.btr.org/stages-of-anger-after-infidelity/) **Published:** May 20, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** I went through so many stages of anger after infidelity. Here's what I learned. **Content:** I went through so many stages of anger after infidelity. Here’s what I learned over the years. I realized I wasn’t just healing from his infidelity—I was also recovering from years of emotional hurt. If this sounds like you, take this [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/) to see if you’ve been through emotional abuse too. ## THE 5 STAGES OF ANGER AFTER INFIDELITY Healing from infidelity means facing a whirlwind of emotions. One emotion often takes center stage is raw and overwhelming. If you’ve been betrayed by your husband’s infidelity, the anger you feel is not only normal—it’s a crucial part of your healing process. ### 1. **ANGER AT THE BETRAYAL ITSELF** The first wave often hits when you discover the infidelity. It’s anger directed at the lies, deceit, and complete loss of trust. This stage is about recognizing the deep sense of betrayal and questioning how someone you loved could hurt you so profoundly. - “How could he do this to me?” - “Does he even care about the pain he’s caused?” It’s healthy to feel this anger fully. Talking to a trusted friend or even attending [an online betrayal trauma support group](https://www.btr.org/group/) can help you process these emotions safely. ### 2. **ANGER AT THE CONSEQUENCES** Whether it’s emotional wounds, financial stress, or strained relationships, it’s normal to feel angry about the impact of his actions. - “Why am I the one picking up the pieces?” - “Now I have to heal because of his choices.” It’s so hard to have to deal with all the hurt and harm he has caused. You’re not alone. So many other women have faced similar challenges, including me. Even so, I’m so so sorry that you’re going through this. You don’t deserve it. ### 3. **ANGER AT THE LOSS** Betrayal doesn’t just hurt—it also takes things away. You’ll likely grieve the marriage you thought you had, the version of your husband you believed in, or the future you planned together. This grief often takes the form of anger. - “I didn’t deserve to lose everything I’ve worked for.” - “It’s not fair that my whole world has changed because of his betrayal.” It’s healthy to mourn these losses. And to have a community that can mourn with you, like The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community. ### 4. **ANGER AT YOURSELF** Many women feel frustrated with themselves. You might be angry for trusting him, for not seeing the signs sooner, or for still struggling to heal. - “Why didn’t I see through his lies?” - “Why do I feel so stuck?” It’s crucial to treat yourself with compassion during this stage. His betrayal was not your fault. Listening to [women share their betrayal trauma stories on this podcast](/podcast/). Their stories will remind you that you’re not alone—or to blame. It’s so hard to wrap your head around. Some people will blame you for [trauma bonding, for example](https://www.btr.org/therapist-for-trauma-bonding/), with your husband, but that’s not true. He lied to you and that’s on him. ### 5. **RECLAIMING ANGER AS STRENGTH** The final stage is when you realize that your anger can become a source of power. It can motivate you learn strategies to protect yourself. - “I am powerful and my needs are important.” - “It’s time to focus on my well-being.” Learning how to live in the power you’ve always had is the aim of [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). You are strong, capable, and worthy of love and respect. ### YOU’RE NOT ALONE. I’M ANGRY TOO As I talk with victims of infidelity on a daily basis, I am so angry. And how could I not be? It’s important to know you’re not alone in your anger at his infidelity. Every emotion you’re feeling—sorrow, devastation, numbness, or fury—is valid. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we’re here to walk with you every step of the way. ![Stages of Anger After Infidelity How Anger Protects You](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Stages-of-Anger-After-Infidelity-How-Anger-Protects-You.webp "Stages of Anger After Infidelity How Anger Protects You")## TRANSCRIPT: STAGES OF ANGER AFTER INFIDELITY Welcome to BTR.ORG. This is Anne. My children are with my ex for right now, and I’ve been alone and working a lot. I’ve been really busy. I actually think I might go shop for new clothes today which I haven’t done in years–which is making me a bit nervous! At the same time, I’m thinking, “My goodness! I might get a new shirt today!” This is exciting!! While my children are gone, my mom’s here helping me. I have amazing parents. They are supportive emotionally and financially. I really need to put a shout out to them, especially my mom who is my biggest fan. There is no way I could do this without her support—emotionally and physically, for she tends my kids. She brings dinner. My mom is a carpenter. She can do electrical work. She fixes my toilets. So she came down and helped me assemble a desk and helped put my new office together. ## GRATITUDE FOR FAMILY I got exhausted but my mom who is 65 came over and stood on stools to drill holes in the wall for my bookcases so they don’t fall over on my kids. I was getting exhausted and she powered through! My mom can do anything! I am so grateful for her and admire her so much. Where my ex-husband used to be my partner in projects, now I still have a partner and it’s my mom. And so I can still work on my projects and do the things I love and still have help. She is an angel and I am so grateful for her. My life is infinitely better because of her. I am also grateful for my dad and their financial assistance. I’m really, really blessed to have amazing parents. I want to talk about some of things I loved about my ex that I have been thinking about lately. I love projects, I love improving things. I’ve got a really nice home in a nice area, in a suburb north of Salt Lake City, Utah. It’s very safe and convenient. My ex and I bought the home together. He’s a mechanical engineer and also a patent attorney. He’s really, really smart with numbers and with problem solving with mechanical situations. I really appreciated that about him. He built a chicken coop that could withstand the apocalypse! I remember watching him work in the yard and seeing how strong he was. He could pick up a railroad tie and drag it around. I always thought he was handsome when he was out working in the yard and he had dirt all over his face. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## STRUGGLING WITH ANGER AT INFIDELITY & CONTRADICTIONS IN FAITH We bought a home together, before we got married (which I don’t recommend). There were tons of rocks. We gathered them up and put them in buckets. He would put them in the bottom of the garbage can since it could only handle being about 1/3 full so it wouldn’t break. The garbage truck would come and dump it and my ex would put more rocks in and take the can to the other side of the street. This was my idea but he did it willingly. When he was not being abusive he was so willing to help me. He worked from home the last three years of our marriage. I could come home from the grocery store and he would come and help me bring the groceries in. He loved church which is difficult for me now because we attended together. We attended the temple and he is still attending. He hasn’t repented. There is a disconnect there. I like that he does love the Church. I just can’t figure out how come he can’t understand the commandments or obey them. It is hard to have so much anger at his infidelity and the mismatch of values and actions. It’s hard to understand that this is how [narcissists groom victims](https://www.btr.org/narcissists-groom-victims/ "narcissists groom victims"). He has the appearance of really, truly loving the Church which I appreciated about him. ![Stages of Anger After Infidelity - How Anger Protects You](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/6Sl9KCv6mYg/maxresdefault.jpg) ## WHEN HIS ACTIONS CONTRADICT HIS STATED VALUES He liked to cook which I also appreciated about him. He wasn’t a good cook but he did it and he liked it so that was cool. And he was willing to do whatever I wanted to do. Whatever movie I wanted to watch, wherever I wanted to go, he was willing to go with me. He never really planned anything which now I wonder if he just wasn’t very interested. I did a lot of brain work planning things and he was willing to go. He didn’t play video games. He didn’t watch sports. I appreciated that about him. When he was here, he genuinely seemed to care about his family which is why it was so shocking that after his arrest he gave up. And also for the last three months when things got really bad there was no sign of him wanting to protect his family or keep us together. He has this child-like naiveté to him. Like he didn’t know who the Rockettes were. He didn’t know a lot of cultural references. I found it kind of endearing. I really admired his physical strength and stamina. He was an extremely hard worker with yard projects and other projects. He had a lot of patience unless he was abusive and then he would get mad and scream and yell and swear. And because I don’t know [how to set boundaries with my husband](https://www.btr.org/how-to-set-boundaries-with-my-husband/) that work, it feels impossible. ## STRUGGLING TO HOLD ON AFTER INFIDELITY: HOPING FOR CHANGE IN A RELATIONSHIP I’m missing the really good things about him. I’m also missing the times we worked together to accomplish things. We really got along on all major decisions–church things, where to move, what to do. Every major decision was easy for us. We never fought about that. Because he was abusive we constantly had trouble with the little things. That’s what made life difficult on a day-to-day basis. We moved 6 times in 5 years. We started out in Spokane, Washington, and then he was laid off. So we moved in with my parents. Then we moved to Washington D.C. where he was a patent examiner. We lived there for two years. During this time, his abuse I attributed to his job in 2008. We also had to sell our house. It was very stressful so I attributed his abuse to stress and thought that once we could sell our house and get him a new job, he would be better. Then we moved to Washington D.C. and he was in the patent office and I thought, “This is a temporary situation. We live in a small apartment in inner city Alexandria. Once he gets his career established and we can move into a home, it will get better.” I was working so hard to make things better and it made me so angry that he kept being unfaithful. ## FACING THE ANGER: DEVELOPING INNER PEACE AFTER INFIDELITY Then we moved back to Utah and moved in with my parents. This was difficult and I thought that once we got our own house, things will be better. We bought a home that I did not like the floor plan. We couldn’t fit a dining room table in the kitchen, for example. I thought that if we moved to a more permanent home where we could live forever and raise our family there, things would be better. So then we bought the home that I am in now. Which is my dream home. I absolutely adore it and I never want to leave. We began remodeling and I thought that once it was remodeled and settled then he will be better. There would be less stress and he wouldn’t act badly. But he began to get worse. About a year after moving into our dream home. He wanted to move again. He talked about getting a new job and changing. I said no. This was our life now and it’s what it means to have a life together. He felt trapped and stuck and was angry. ## HOW CAN YOU DEVELOP PEACE AFTER THE ANGER OF INFIDELITY I thought, “Okay. All of these remodeling projects are pushing him over the edge, so no more remodeling projects for awhile.” And he actually got worse. I was still thinking about the projects and preparing for them, so it’s not like they had stopped completely in the discussion of them. Just the physical work stopped. In fact, my mom is a kitchen designer. She had just done the plans to remodel the kitchen and take down a wall when his arrest happened. It’s a good thing we didn’t start that project. That summer when things escalated, I remember thinking: “Things will get better when the kids are in school.” The kids got in school and it didn’t get better. I’m not sure what I would have thought. We were in our dream home. I had said no more projects until he stopped acting the way he did. There wasn’t anything else I could blame. I couldn’t blame his job. I couldn’t blame our living situation. And I couldn’t blame stress because we had the “perfect” life at that time. ## WHY DOES INNER STRENGTH HELP IN HEALING THE ANGER FROM INFIDELITY There was always an excuse for abuse. There was always a reason. He’s stressed. He feels shame, [shame causes infidelity.](https://www.btr.org/cause-of-cheating/ "shame causes infidelity.") There is always going to be some reason. But, Sisters, non-abusive men get stressed and they don’t scream and swear in your face! They get stressed and they don’t use. They feel shame and they kneel down and pray and turn to the scriptures and repent! Difficult situations DO NOT cause abuse! Negative feelings do not cause pornography use. Choices do. The type of man who is safe will feel sadness and shame and stress and they will choose kindness. They will choose to obey the commandments. They will choose to protect their family. This is what you deserve and I deserve. With how badly so many men treat their wives, it’s no wonder women think, [do good men even exist](/do-good-men-exist/)? I want to share with you scriptures I read this morning. I belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We are Christians and we study from the Bible and Book of Mormon. This passage is from the Book of Mormon. It’s from Alma 5:55-57. This is a prophet calling people to repentance and letting them know what will happen. ## INNER PEACE & SPIRITUALITY Yea, and will you persist in turning your backs upon the poor, and the needy, and in withholding your substance from them? And finally, all ye that will persist in your wickedness, I say unto you that these are they who shall be hewn down and cast into the fire except they speedily repent. And now I say unto you, all you that are desirous to follow the voice of the good shepherd, come ye out from the wicked, and be ye separate… Here is Christ telling the people to separate themselves from the wickedness. I am going to read that again…(v 57-60) …come ye out from the wicked, and be ye separate, and touch not their unclean things; and behold, their names shall be blotted out, that the names of the wicked shall not be numbered among the names of the righteous, that the word of God may be fulfilled, which saith: The names of the wicked shall not be mingled with the names of my people. ## ANGRY AFTER INFIDELITY: FACING THE DARK TIMES For the names of the righteous shall be written in the book of life, and unto them will I grant an inheritance at my right hand. And now, my brethren, what have ye to say against this? I say unto you, if ye speak against it, it matters not, for the word of God must be fulfilled. For what shepherd is there among you having many sheep doth not watch over them, that the wolves enter not and devour his flock? And behold, if a wolf enter his flock doth he not drive him out? Yea, and at the last, if he can, he will destroy him. And now I say unto you that the good shepherd doth call after you; if you will hearken unto his voice he will bring you into his fold, and ye are his sheep; and he commandeth you that ye suffer no ravenous wolf to enter among you, that ye may not be destroyed. Here is a commandment straight from Jesus Christ: and he commandeth you that ye suffer no ravenous wolf to enter among you, that ye may not be destroyed. (v 60) I’m going to read that again. And he commandeth you that ye suffer no ravenous wolf to enter among you, that ye may not be destroyed. ## MOVING ON FROM ANGER COMES WITH INNER PEACE Sisters, we love our husbands. I absolutely loved and adored my husband. For 7 years I sacrificed everything to try and help him and save my family. Here God is commanding me and commanding you: suffer no ravenous wolf to enter among you, that ye may not be destroyed. I know a lot of you are wondering what God wants for you. God wants you to be safe. He wants you to have a peaceful home. You cannot have a peaceful home with a ravenous wolf within the walls. This is a time for all of us to stand for truth and righteousness in a way we never have before. The reason why it’s so scary is because there are men in our church who look at us like we’re crazy! There are people who say that our boundaries are not righteous or that we are not being loving or kind or forgiving. None of this is true. ## CAN BOUNDARY-SETTING HELP YOU HEAL YOUR ANGER AFTER INFIDELITY? The most compassionate thing you can do for your husband it set a boundary. God is commanding you to. I don’t know what that boundary is going to look like and also I don’t really know how Heavenly Father is going to help you. Your anger at his infidelity can help you protect yourself. There were so many times where I felt so alone and so scared. And that was with amazing and supportive parents who were incredible. And so many of you don’t have supportive parents or friends and the isolation is so intense. I do know that you stepping toward faith and obeying the commandment to “…suffer no ravenous wolf to enter among you.” If you start making steps towards obeying this commandment, you will be blessed. I have no idea how. And I’m pretty sure that before you’re blessed, things may get a lot worse. But I have to think that God keeps His promises. I also look at people like Martin Luther King, Jr. and Mother Theresa and George Washington and our founding fathers and the suffragettes and what they sacrificed. They sacrificed their lives for truth. I’m making sacrifices and still get to stay in my beautiful home and I get to dig in my garden. For many of you, what I am going to ask you to do is going to be hard. You might have to leave your home. You might have to be on food stamps. Some of you are facing homelessness. I just pray that you will let God lead you, that as we create an army of healthy women that will suffer “no ravenous wolf to come among us” that we can change the world. Until next week, stay safe out there. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Is It Wrong To Check Your Husband's Phone? - Jenna's Experience](https://www.btr.org/is-it-wrong-to-check-your-husbands-phone/) **Published:** May 27, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Do you suspect your husband is having an affair? Does access to his phone help prevent infidelity? **Content:** If you suspect your husband is having an affair, is it wrong to check your husband’s phone? Does access to your husband’s phone ensure he’ll stay faithful? Jenn shares 3 reasons why checking his devices didn’t stop her husband from cheating. [If you relate and need support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY.](https://www.btr.org/group/) ![is It Wrong to Check Your Husbands Phone](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Is-It-Wrong-To-Check-Your-Husbands-Phone.webp "is It Wrong to Check Your Husbands Phone")## TRANSCRIPT: IS IT WRONG TO CHECK YOUR HUSBAND’S PHONE? **Anne:** A member of our community we’re going to call her, Jenna is on today’s episode. She’s been on the podcast before, and today she’s going to tell her story. We’re talking about. Is it wrong to check your husband’s phone? Welcome Jenna. Why don’t you just go ahead and start. **Jenna:** I discovered my husband’s addiction shortly after we were married and I was obviously devastated and completely traumatized. He had withheld things from me and lied to me. That created a distrust in our relationship. And caused me to question everything he had ever told me that I had ever experienced with him. So I just, from the beginning, could not stop looking through his computer, through his phone, [my husband was constantly on his phone.](https://www.btr.org/why-is-my-husband-constantly-on-his-phone/ "my husband was constantly on his phone. ") Really any device or anything that I could verify or find information. I would search into the late hours of the night and into the morning. That was just a response to my trauma. And I’ve learned since then that it’s not useful, has not helped me, and it only harmed me and caused me further pain. **Anne:** I wanna contrast your story with the story of many women I’ve spoken with. Who have said I had this impression that I needed to check his phone. And I checked it and realized he was having an affair. Or I had this impression that I needed to look at his computer, and I looked at the computer and saw this. Yeah, women can really benefit from safety seeking behavior, right? So today I want to cover why we call this safety seeking behaviors. ## BETRAYAL TRAUMA RECOVERY’S PERSPECTIVE ON SAFETY **Anne:** At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we believe women resist abuse. They resist it from the very first second they experience it. They might not know they’re experiencing it, and they might not know that what they’re doing is resisting it. But it is an effort to get to safety. And at BTR, whatever you do to get to safety is healthy. And we’ve also found that some safety seeking or some types of resistance are more effective than others. So we’re going to talk about that today. Some addiction recovery therapists, or other therapists or [support groups,](https://www.btr.org/betrayal-trauma-support-group/) will try to label wanting to check his phone as acting out. Or that you’re codependent. And that you are trying to find the truth is unhealthy. Which is just more gaslighting. [You’re not codependent](https://www.btr.org/therapist-codependency/ "You're not codependent"), you are seeking safety. ![Is It Wrong To Check Your Husband's Phone?](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/R3vXhz8MN2U/maxresdefault.jpg) **Jenna:** Yes, for me, looking through his computer and phone, it was the only tool I had at the time. I didn’t have any recovery resources. And I was trying my hardest to, like you said, establish safety with the little knowledge I had. And that was the only thing I knew how to do. But they did not provide me with the safety I desperately sought. For me, there were three reasons that searching my husband’s computer was not helpful. Number one, it didn’t solve the problem. Number two, it made me feel crazy, and I lost trust in my own intuition and self. And number three, it kept the focus on him. And prevented me from creating and establishing safety for myself. **Anne:** So let’s talk about that first reason for you. Why did it not solve the problem? ## INEFFECTIVENESS OF SEARCHING DEVICES **Jenna:** It did not solve the problem, even if I found evidence of something while checking his phone and confronted him about it. He would deny it and my [husband was gaslighting](https://www.btr.org/husband-gaslighting/) me. That was not motivation for him to change. It would just be me showing him these things, or I couldn’t find anything. And then because I was looking for cold, hard evidence to convince him. And explain to him and show him the reasons why he needs to get help and to change. Instead of looking to myself and saying, what do I need to feel safe? I wasn’t listening to my own intuition. **Anne:** I can see why this wouldn’t solve the problem, because it’s like talking to a two year old. **Jenna:** Yes. **Anne:** Okay, please don’t throw the food on the floor. And they do not say to you, Oh, you are right. I was throwing the food on the floor. That is inappropriate. I am so sorry. I will never do that again. **Jenna:** Exactly. **Anne:** Two or three year olds don’t say that. The way they react is not in a reasonable, mature fashion. **Jenna:** Right. **Anne:** Even when you presented him with evidence. It’s not like he said, Oh, wow, here’s the evidence. Facts are facts, now I will stop lying. **Jenna:** Right, it’s not logical. You can’t reason with addict mode. **Anne:** Because of that, that probably is exactly why you have the second reason, which is you started to feel crazy. **Jenna:** Yes, for a year and a half, I searched my husband’s phone and computer, and tracked him on his devices. Trying to find something, because my gut kept telling me something is off. ## CHECKING YOUR HUSBAND’S PHONE: EMOTIONAL TURMOIL & INTUITION **Jenna:** I just continually had this feeling of something is not right. He’s not telling me the full truth about something. I could not shake this feeling, so I would confront him. And say, hey, I have this feeling that something is off and you’re withholding information from me. And he would say no, everything’s fine. I would just think okay, but why am I having this feeling? So instead of trusting myself and making boundaries for safety, I would search my husbands phone and computer. Ninety-nine percent of the time I found nothing. That just made me feel crazy, because I had this conflicting feeling with the lack of evidence. That I was not finding on the phone or on whatever device. It was a very confusing and crazy feeling to look for something that you feel like should be there, and it’s not. **Anne:** At the time, I assume his behaviors were emotionally unsafe. **Jenna:** Correct, they were unsafe. **Anne:** So were you thinking, okay, there’s got to be a reason why his behaviors are emotionally unsafe? Did you even have words for that at the time? **Jenna:** I would have these flags come up in my mind, saying like, I don’t feel like he should be doing this or saying this or acting this way or treating me this way. That’s when I would confront him. The evidence I was ignoring at the time was the emotional abuse and irresponsible behaviors. I don’t think I would have labeled it emotional abuse. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take our[ free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). I was so early in my healing process that I barely learned about boundaries. ## THE LIVING FREE WORKSHOP **Jenna:** I knew it was not right, but I just made excuses. I bargained and tried to rationalize it and make sense of it. But yes, it was emotional abuse that I’m not sure I was aware of at the time. **Anne:** Absolutely, that’s why I created the [Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). So women can discover what is actually going on. Know his true character, and then learn how to set effective boundaries. That don’t require his cooperation. You can protect yourself without him having to do anything. That takes us to your reason number three. You were searching his phone and computer to resist abuse. Checking your husband’s phone actually kept you from doing things that would establish your safety. Like some of those strategies that we teach in the Living Free Workshop. **Jenna:** Yes, when I was obsessed with looking through his phone and search history on his computer and trying to find evidence. I spent so much emotional energy on that. I was neglecting myself and not doing the things that would provide real lasting safety for myself. **Anne:** Yeah, I think it’s a common stage that all victims go through. Plus we’re given the wrong information by therapists. The therapist tells us that to set a boundary, we need to say to our husband out loud. If you do this, then I’ll do this. So, I mean, before I even got married, I told my ex, if you look at pornography, I will divorce you. That was my “boundary,” but then I married him and he looked at it. Then I didn’t want to divorce him. ## SETTING BOUNDARIES FOR SAFETY **Anne:** So what was I supposed to do? It was confusing. And that way of “setting boundaries” didn’t help me be safe at all. In the case of searching for things on their phone and computer. Many women say their boundary is that they have access to his phone or computer. In your case, you’re saying it’s not wrong to check his phone, it’s that it didn’t help you get to safety. Because you still felt uneasy, and it didn’t stop him from harming you. In the [Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/), women learn what a boundary is. It’s something that actually protects you. And something you do without talking to him at all. **Jenna:** Yes, as I learned about boundaries, what that meant, and what a healthy boundary was. I just played around with it a little bit. I didn’t know how to implement a healthy boundary completely. So I would try, and I had this little glimpse of feeling safe and empowered. I felt like, oh, maybe this is what safety is. And maybe I don’t need to search these things. And so I would start to make some boundaries, and I would break my own boundaries. Over time, as I began to create healthy boundaries consistently, I began to experience real safety. I could feel the difference. And when I look back, I don’t know how I made it through that time of chaos and dysfunction. The moment when I created firm, healthy boundaries, I felt that peace and that assurance and that safety. ## CHECKING MY HUSBAND’S PHONE VS. SETTING BOUNDARIES **Jenna:** It was just a turning point for me and my recovery. The first boundary I remember setting and holding. That provided safety for me, I actually didn’t sleep in the bed with him because I did not feel safe. Not because he was looking at exploitative content, I couldn’t prove it, but because he wasn’t emotionally safe for me. And that was enough for me to not sleep in the bed with him. I started to focus on what I needed to feel safe. It wasn’t checking his phone? Part of that for me was having a husband who would be honest with me. I did find out he had lied about something. I knew at that moment that I needed to hold the boundary. And I did, and I asked him to move out. And that created the most safety that I had felt during our marriage. I asked him to move out and my home became a safe haven for me. I can say that with confidence, yeah. **Anne:** When I started doing that, I could feel it too. For me, I never set a boundary before the judge and police set the boundary for me. **Jenna:** Right. **Anne:** It was a God given boundary of no contact when he was arrested. And the judge said, you have a no contact boundary. I could have broken it, but I was like, Whoa, this is what I need to do. And I felt safe for the first time. It was amazing. Just that peace that came that I could go home, and I could breathe having that safe space. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## PRACTICAL BOUNDARY SETTING **Anne:** The key to setting boundaries is safety. How can I feel safe? Like I teach in the Living Free Workshop. You don’t have to tell the person what your boundary is. You don’t have to decide your boundary beforehand. Because you can’t anticipate all the things he’s going to do. You don’t know, for example, here’s a metaphor that he’s going to throw a shoe at you. So you couldn’t beforehand say, if you throw a shoe at me. I will throw your shoe in the garbage. Instead, you can respond when he harms you. And without saying a word to him, think to yourself. I didn’t realize he would use shoes as weapons. So I’m going to take all the shoes in the house and give them to Goodwill. You don’t have to say a word to him about it. You don’t have to get his permission. And you don’t need his cooperation. And then no more shoes will be in the house. So he’ll never throw a shoe at you again. I mean, that’s a metaphor, but I love Living Free. Because it’s about what you need to feel safe. And you can make the best decisions for you and actually take action to protect yourself. **Jenna:** Absolutely, I didn’t even understand the concept of boundaries for so long. I needed someone to guide me and show me what a healthy boundary looked like. Because there’s no way I would have learned to do that on my own. I mean, I was lost completely in the beginning. So I needed to see examples of boundaries. ## ADVICE FOR LISTENERS **Jenna:** I needed to see examples of women making and holding boundaries. I needed someone to listen to me, talk through boundaries, and contemplate whether they were healthy boundaries that provided safety. **Anne:** Exactly, how can we move toward actual safety? Rather than spinning our wheels, trying to get safety, but not getting anywhere, right? For our listeners, who are now wondering if it’s wrong to check your husband’s phone? And obsessively checking their husband’s phones and computers. What advice would you have for them? **Jenna:** In my experience, searching through my husband’s devices and tracking where he is, and constantly being on alert. Never brought me real safety and stabilization in my life. The only thing that created stability for me was learning about boundaries. What they look like and what they don’t look like. And then interacting with other women in similar situations, but maybe are a few steps ahead of me. You helped me begin creating safety for myself, instead of searching continually through my husband’s computer. **Anne:** Well, I’m so glad. The Living Free strategies are incredible, especially the parts about setting healthy boundaries. It also includes how to determine your husband’s true character, thought strategies, communication strategies. Everything a woman needs to know when she has that gut feeling that something’s wrong is in [The Living Free Workshop.](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/ "The Living Free Workshop.") **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Psychological Abuse vs Emotional Abuse - What You Need To Know](https://www.btr.org/psychological-abuse-vs-emotional-abuse/) **Published:** June 3, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Psychological and emotional abuse leave no visible scars, but deeply impact a woman's well-being. **Content:** If you’re wondering about psychological abuse vs emotional abuse, here’s what to know. Emotional abuse is when someone manipulates your emotions to exploit you. He can use psychological abuse or emotional abuse to toy with your emotions to get what he wants. To find out if you’re experiencing emotional abuse, take this [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ![Difference Between Psychological and Physical Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/difference-between-psychological-and-physical-abuse.webp "Difference Between Psychological and Physical Abuse")Psychological abuse is a deliberate attempt to manipulate, control, and diminish a person’s sense of reality. It can be impossible to detect, because it includes subtle and calculated tactics that undermine your mental and emotional stability. ## THE LINK BETWEEN PSYCHOLOGICAL ABUSE VS EMOTIONAL ABUSE One very hurtful kind of emotional and mental abuse happens when some men hide harmful behaviors, like secretly watching inappropriate videos or having relationships outside of their marriage. Then, they use tricks and lies to keep these actions secret. For example, they might blame others, make excuses, or try to confuse the person they are hurting. This kind of behavior is unfair and can make the people around them feel sad, scared, or unsure of what’s true. It’s important to understand these actions so we can help people who are being treated this way. - **Grooming**: Acting overly kind or loving to distract you from their deception or to lower your guard. - **Gaslighting Through Deception**: Insisting that behaviors you suspect (like inappropriate texts or suspicious accounts) are harmless or fabricated by your imagination. - **Blame-Shifting**: Making you feel responsible for their choices—whether it’s pornography use, emotional affairs, or other betrayals. These behaviors are not only abusive but can leave you feeling emotionally unsafe and fragmented, as you try to reconcile the lies with the reality you live. To learn more about this type of abuse, specifically related to infidelity, listen to [The Free Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast.](https://www.btr.org/podcast/) ![the Difference Between Emotional and Psychological Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/the-difference-between-emotional-and-psychological-abuse.webp "the Difference Between Emotional and Psychological Abuse")## IDENTIFYING PSYCHOLOGICAL ABUSE & EMOTIONAL ABUSE: Healing from psychological abuse is almost exactly the same as healing from emotional abuse. Either way, you’ll need to heal from… - **Lying and Deception**: Repeated lies or withholding the truth to maintain power and secrecy. Your husband might make promises he has no intention of keeping, or lie to cover up deeper issues, like infidelity or pornography use. - **Gaslighting**: Making you question your own reality or memory. For example, he might say, “That never happened,” or twist your words to make you feel irrational. - **Manipulation**: Using grooming, love bombing, hoovering, or fear to gain control. He might send flowers or plan amazing dates. Or he might play the victim or focus on your weaknesses to deflect attention from his own harmful behavior. These psychologically abusive behaviors make it even harder to recognize or confront the abuse. [Learn more about what strategies to use to protect yourself from this type of abuse by enrolling in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop.](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) ![Difference Between Psychological Abuse and Emotional Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/difference-between-psychological-abuse-and-emotional-abuse.webp "Difference Between Psychological Abuse and Emotional Abuse")## STEPS TO HEAL FROM PSYCHOLOGICAL ABUSE VS EMOTIONAL ABUSE Healing from psychological abuse is possible, here’s how to start your healing process: #### 1. **Seek Emotional Safety** Your emotional safety is very important, and it should always come first. Taking care of yourself might mean stepping away from the situation, setting clear boundaries, or getting help from a trusted professional. It’s okay to make changes to protect yourself, even if it feels hard. Always remember, you don’t need your husband’s permission to take steps toward feeling safe. You deserve to feel happy, respected, and secure in your life. Start by reaching out to someone you trust or a professional who can guide you. You are not alone, and there are people who want to help. #### 2. **Build a Support Network** Surround yourself with people who validate your reality and support your healing. This could be trusted friends, family, or specialized support groups like [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/). Betrayal Trauma Recovery is designed specifically for women overcoming trauma from psychological abuse vs emotional abuse. #### 3. **Educate Yourself on His Tactics** **To Make Healing From Psychological Abuse Possible** Learning about harmful behaviors, like gaslighting, blaming others, and lying, can help you think more clearly and feel stronger. These actions are used to confuse or control someone, but understanding them is the first step to stopping their effects. When you know how these tactics work, it’s easier to recognize them and take steps to protect yourself. Knowledge gives you the power to break free from unfair or manipulative situations and start feeling more in control of your life. To learn how to heal from your husband’s psychological abuse vs emotional abuse, listen to [The Free Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast.](https://www.btr.org/podcast/) #### 4. **It Has Nothing To Do With You (and Everything To Do with You)** Even though his psychological abuse and emotional abuse has nothing to do with you, it has everything to do with you because you’re the victim. You deserve to live a life free from manipulation, gaslighting, and lies. ![is Psychological and Mental Abuse the Same Thing](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/is-psychological-and-mental-abuse-the-same-thing.webp "is Psychological and Mental Abuse the Same Thing")## TRANSCRIPT: PSYCHOLOGICAL ABUSE VS EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Anne:** Many women ask. What is the difference between psychological abuse vs emotional abuse? So emotional abuse is when someone [manipulates your emotions to exploit you](https://www.btr.org/abusers-manipulate-their-victims/). So they’re going for that emotional reaction. Psychological abuse is the deliberate attempt to manipulate and control your sense of reality. Healing from psychological abuse vs emotional abuse is pretty much the same thing. You’re still healing from the lying and deception, the gaslighting and manipulation. Psychological abuse and emotional abuse are linked. Both happen when your husband has affairs or has a secret life, watching exploitative material or having relationships outside the marriage. He’s going to be psychologically and emotionally abusive. [Grooming and blame shifting](https://www.btr.org/is-my-husband-grooming-me/) is all abuse. So on the podcast today, I have a member of our community. We’re going to call her Margaret. Something happened to her track, and I tried to fix it. And it distorted it a bit. Her story is so good. If you’re having a hard time hearing it, you can read it here. So I want to welcome Margaret. Margaret, let’s start at the beginning of your story. **Margaret:** In the beginning, I was young and married at 23. So it was kind of a quick courtship dating. I was involved in my church and met him at my work. It clicked, and he started going to church with me, he got baptized at my church. And then, you know, one thing led to another, we’re engaged, and then we’re getting married. And looking back, I can see red flags now, because I’m much older and wiser. But at the time, you don’t think they’re red flags. You just think, Oh, that’s just a little thing. That’s not a sign of a bigger thing. ## DISRESPECT & LACK OF COMMUNICATION **Margaret:** For example, this sounds so benign, later, it played out so much bigger in our marriage. We were sitting at a table and talking, and there was a newspaper nearby. I’m talking and he picks up the paper. He opens it and starts reading, and the paper is now in front of me. And I remember thinking, Oh, I wasn’t done talking, but you pretty much just cut me off. And I couldn’t even tell you what I was talking about, but that lack of respect, I would say for years, you don’t respect me. You don’t hear me. I’m talking, it’s not processing with you or you’re not acknowledging me. I had dated a guy before him, and I still lived at home. We were coming home, and that other boyfriend was at the door of my house. And I told him, let’s not stop, let’s just keep going. As we drove off, a few minutes passed, and he suddenly started banging on the steering wheel. Upset with me about that, because I didn’t want to stop. That I was ashamed of him or something. And it was very startling. ![Understanding Psychological Abuse And Emotional Abuse Differences](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/3sJNedeS4es/maxresdefault.jpg) **Anne:** I wonder if he had hoped to just drop you off. Because he was maybe meeting up with another woman. And he had plans or something like that, when you didn’t go in. And he couldn’t drop you off. He was ticked. But of course he couldn’t tell you the truth. Maybe [he could use psychological abuse](https://www.btr.org/psychological-abuse-definition/) or emotional abuse to batter you to the point where you’re like, let’s just go home then, and then he could go about his merry way. And meet with whoever he was going to meet. ## SILENT TREATMENT & GASLIGHTING **Margaret:** He just got quiet, and then was banging on the steering wheel and yelling at me. **Anne:** Because nothing is what it seems with an abuser. It’s hard to figure out what’s going on, because you’re trying to resolve an issue and they are trying to meet up with their affair partner. They’re lying to you about needing to work so they can use exploitative material. And a lot of times you’ll ask questions, and they will literally never answer. They’ll just be silent. **Margaret:** Like we would be having a discussion or disagreement, an argument. And he would be quiet, and I’d be like, what do you think? Why aren’t you saying anything? Oh, tell me, I have a whole party going on in my head. I just didn’t say it. So then I’d be like, that doesn’t help me. And that doesn’t help us. Looking back, I would tell people like, trying to get anything resolved with him is so difficult because I could be talking about apples. We’re going back and forth, and he’s like, okay, we got the oranges all settled. And I’d be like, wait, what? What are we talking about? **Anne:** That happened to me too. Part of that is that they’re just getting energy from the argument. So it’s not about resolving anything. I’m a good debater, so we would get to the point where it would be resolved. He would use psychological abuse and emotional abuse. Then he would start again on the exact opposite thing of what he just said, and I was like, what? ## PSYCHOLOGICAL ABUSE VS EMOTIONAL ABUSE: ENERGY FROM CHAOS **Anne:** You just argued for two hours for that. No, I didn’t. It was insane. I think they just gain so much energy from that chaos. It’s fun for them. They’re having a good time. Yeah. **Margaret:** Oh, yeah, because I would repeat back to him word for word what he’d said to me, like, okay, so you’re saying X, Y, Z. No, no, that’s not what I said. I said, no, those are your exact words, but that’s not what I mean. And I’d be like, say what you mean. And it would just go on like that. Like nothing ever felt like we accomplished anything, or he’d be like, I’ll try, try to do that. And I’m like, many years of trying and there’s no change. I thought, we’re just young and have a lot of growing to do. And we got married, and the behaviors continue. I just thought we’re just immature. It’s two people from two backgrounds coming together to make a marriage work. And my childhood was one that my parents had a very unhealthy marriage. There was spousal abuse. So I knew what physical abuse looked like. I had seen or felt threatened, or had hands laid on me in that way. So I would have known that. But I could never put my finger on it, something’s off. Something’s not right. I couldn’t identify either the psychological or emotional abuse. So maybe it’s because I don’t know what healthy marriage looks like. Okay, his parents are married. He’s an only child. His parents seem to have a good marriage, so they must have been good role models for him. So he must know, it must be me and growing in the church. ## STRUGGLES WITH EXPLOITATIVE CONTENT **Margaret:** I got to pray more and learn how to communicate better and submit. To respect my husband more, and things will turn around, things will get better. I had first caught him using exploitative material when I found out I was pregnant with my first son. I had gone to bed, he didn’t come to bed, and I’m like, where is he? And we were in a three bedroom house at the time, and I went to one of the bedrooms and it was locked. I thought, that’s odd, why is he locked in there? And when he opened the door, I could smell something, and I could see a diagonal view to the computer screen. It was exploitative material. I was shocked, stunned, and sick to my stomach. I don’t know what he told me. So I think he said he would come into bed soon, or something, and I just went to bed. The topic would come up off and on for years, because I would catch him. Back then, I didn’t know, and I didn’t understand. And I grew up in that generation, 70s, 80s, where friends’ dads had stocks hidden under the bed, you know, of magazines. And so you’re trying, I’m trying to process, as a good Christian wife, as a woman, as a Christian family. I don’t think this is okay, but like how bad is this? And what do I do? And I did go to his mom and say, look, I think this is an issue, but what could she do? How could I fix this? I did tell him I didn’t like it. This is wrong. I don’t feel good about this. And I think he just got better at using psychological abuse and emotional abuse to hide it. ## FAILED COUNSELING ATTEMPTS **Margaret:** At one point, we did go to counseling at a church for marriage issues. And somehow, and he’s good at this, the focus became me. The person that was counseling us was not equipped for what was happening. They were not equipped for his use of emotional and psychological abuse to focus on me. The session became about me, my childhood, and my issues. I just know that when it was over, I got in my car, pulled off to the side of the road, and called my sister. Excuse me, it still triggers me. I was so upset. I was bawling. And I said, I can never do that again. I can never go back to counseling. It was so traumatic. I was like, I would never return to another counselor. **Anne:** Good for you. **Margaret:** It was horrible. So that was early in the marriage. That was probably 10, 15 years in, and at this point I was beginning to question his fidelity. I would find condoms. And he would say, at the time, we had grown sons, like 20 and 19. He would say, Oh, I grabbed those from our son’s room, and they just ended up in my car. I know my sons, and I know they’re not just leaving them lying out. So what was he doing? And that wasn’t the first time I found them in his car. I had found some early in our marriage, about four, five, or six years in, in a briefcase he had left in the garage. He worked for doctors, a large group of doctors. And it was around a lot of people, women, hospitals, that sort of thing. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## PSYCHOLOGICAL VS EMOTIONAL ABUSE: LIES IN THE FACE OF HARD EVIDENCE **Margaret:** And I remember finding a briefcase in the garage, and it had a Viagra and condoms, and I was like, what is this? We aren’t using those things. Oh, he said a doctor, as a joke for his birthday, gave them to him. And as a young wife who’s just has a one year old, I’m thinking, what, would I think? You know, I want to believe him. And so I said, Oh, okay. And who am I going to ask, the doctor? No, it was just little things like that that you, I could never verify. **Anne:** Blaming it on your kids, that is really, really wrong, super wrong. And they don’t have any problem with false witness, and I want to use that word false witness purposefully. They don’t have any problem bearing false witness, which is really alarming. **Margaret:** I think he knew I would not contact my son and ask him. I think he knew that. And so if he knew that was a safe way to go. But that episode with the finding the condoms in the car, that’s after so many other issues. So for example, the marriage was very difficult. We were struggling. I found it out through my youngest son that he tracked me through my phone, because my son watched him watch the computer monitor. He could see where my car was going. Later when I got home, my son very naively said, Hey, calm down, he knows where you go. I remember being like, what are you talking about? ## HIDDEN CAMERAS & STALKING **Margaret:** And I don’t remember the conversation with my ex. I don’t remember. I just remember thinking I have nothing to hide. I’m meeting my friend. I’m a mom to four. I homeschool. I don’t get out often. She and I would meet every three or four months to just have dinner. So I have nothing to hide, so I don’t know why you’re doing that. So there’s a long history of these things, spyware on my phone, hidden cameras in our bedroom. **Anne:** Hidden cameras in your bedroom, do you know of trafficking that he posted online? **Margaret:** I don’t know he did. He said it wasn’t a good camera. **Anne:** So he would have trafficked you, but the footage wasn’t good enough, was his excuse? **Margaret:** He would not speak. When I say he would just not speak, he wouldn’t speak. He would just look at me. I would just back down. He had a heart issue, almost died, life flight and everything. And when he survived, which, because the odds were against him, I thought, this is our second chance now, this is God’s opportunity. He’s going to turn this ship around, because we’ve been struggling, and he had a long recovery. Like he didn’t trust me. He was stalking me. He accused me of things. Which I now know was him projecting. He has been having affairs. He has been having a lot of affairs and things at work. So, he almost dies. He’s out of work until he goes back to work, and they’re telling him he’s done. And still he’s using psychological abuse or emotional abuse to blame me. ## DISCOVERING THE DATING PROFILE **Margaret:** He always said it was because of this other minor issue at the job. He’d been with them for 20 years. I don’t believe that story anymore. I think he was having affairs at work, and I think it finally caught up with him. So I still did not know, I’m still believing what he tells me. And I’m like, hey, that’s okay. We’re going to be fine. God has brought us through this far, and we’ll be okay. When my daughter was 17 and this friend of hers was on a dating app. My daughter comes to me at 10 o’clock at night with screenshots and says, Mom, my friend just sent me these. And it’s my husband’s face on a dating profile. And he has solicited pictures from my daughter’s friend. I don’t think he realized it was my daughter’s friend. And a friend saw his picture screenshot them and sent them to my daughter and said, Hey, this guy is DMing me. Is this your dad? And she’s like, Mom, do you think somebody took his picture and is using his pictures? And when I read the words for the little bio, a little hook to get people to click on you. I heard his voice in those words. Like I could hear, I said, baby girl, that’s your dad. And it was about 10 o’clock, 10:30 at night, and I walked over to him. I’m like, you need to pack a bag, and you need to leave. And when he saw what I was showing him with the screenshots, the look on his face, I knew that, yeah, he’s done this. He used psychological and emotional abuse to hide online dating. ## PSYCHOLOGICAL ABUSE VS EMOTIONAL ABUSE: ATTEMPTING AFFAIR RECOVERY **Margaret:** He said, but I don’t want to leave. I’m like, you don’t have a choice, or I’ll call the police. You need to leave. I’m going to call your mother. I’m going to call your father. You need to leave. That was in November 11th. I’ll never forget that. That night, he goes to her and says, I have to leave because your mother’s mad. He wasn’t saying I use psychological abuse and emotional abuse to hide my infidelity. **Anne:** Yeah, duh, she’s mad, **Margaret:** She was more on the ball than I was. I have to say, I have to give her credit. She was much wiser at that point to what was going on than I was. She was upset with me when I finally took him back eight months later. It made our, she and I had a very difficult relationship. And I realized now that that was the trigger for her and I not getting along at that point. Because she saw what I couldn’t see. So he moved home. We’re working on our marriage. **Margaret:** We do Affair Recovery, which is based out of Austin, Texas. It’s an emergency, weekend. **Anne:** For couples, someone’s had an affair. **Margaret:** Yes. **Anne:** Did they mention abuse at all? **Margaret:** No, never. It’s always assumed, okay, at some point you’ll have to have sex. **Anne:** You’re going to have to have it, which is coercion, that’s coercion right there. **Margaret:** You’re a good Christian wife and you need to submit. **Anne:** They really don’t know anything about rape, do they? **Margaret:** No! Absolutely, I was like, okay, telling my kids, we’ve been married 29 years. He says he still wants to be married. We can make this work. I’m thinking we’re working on having a better marriage. ## PRESSURE & SELF-BETRAYAL **Margaret:** It’s still always difficult. There are just all these issues. It was an issue, because he moved home and wanted me to start having it right away. I didn’t feel good about that. But I said, okay, and I can look back and see I betrayed myself. He had his own personal counselor. I had my own personal counselor. Then we have the marriage counselor. It seemed like we could never get any resolution, we could never get anywhere. And we started the counseling sessions, and then there’s holidays. So there are these gaps in the counseling, we’re going in January, February, March, and we’re going, but I remember him telling our counselor, what do I need to do? Tell me so I can go through the checklist. At one point, he banged his hand on the couch and said, well, I didn’t even do anything. I should have done something then. The psychological and emotional abuse were continuing in lies to the counselor. **Anne:** What? Wait. So he was like, wait, I didn’t even do anything. I should have. Wow, okay, he was lying in that moment anyway. **Margaret:** When I look back and say everything out loud. When I finally sat down with like my mother. I had never told my mother everything. Early in my marriage, my mother-in-law told me, don’t talk bad about him to your family, because then they won’t like him. And thinking, well, yeah, you know, I probably shouldn’t. So I was careful about what I told to who. I would never tell my best friend, even everything, because if she knew everything, it probably would sound bad. And so I was careful about what I shared. So I went to my mother-in-law and told her, and she said, don’t be telling people. ## DISCOVERING INFIDELITY **Margaret:** I saw a message on his phone before all the dating apps. It was a message on his phone about meeting someone at ten thirty at night after their daughter went to sleep. And when I confronted him, he said, oh, it was for a massage. A friend of his recommended her, and he wanted one late at night. But he told me he never went. Yeah, I believed that. And it wasn’t until years later, when we’re trying to work through the marriage issues, that came up again. And this time when he told the story, he did go, and I said, wait, you said you didn’t go. He goes, no, I always told you I went up. I said, no, you didn’t. I was a shell of myself by the time I left. Fast forward a year, I felt like things were just not good. I felt like things were bad. I was experiencing severe psychological abuse and emotional abuse.I went to him. Then I said, if you’re not happy and don’t want to be married to me, that’s okay. I understand. I love you enough to say, okay, we can separate and divorce. That’s fine. And he said, no, I want to be married. In February, I had a gut feeling. And February 6th is when things finally came to a head. I knew he was cheating again. I saw things on his phone. He chased me around the house because I had the phone and he wanted it back. And he was frantically trying to delete things off the phone while talking to me. He chased me outside as I tried to go through his truck, and I was burned out a few times. ## SOCIAL MEDIA & REALIZATIONS **Margaret:** Conveniently the next day, he deleted all the Ring doorbell video. So I had no proof, yeah. **Anne:** So he knew what he was doing. **Margaret:** You know, he was caught. I had found condoms in the car again. So, thank social media. I could not even tell you how I came across you, and Betrayal Trauma Recovery. It started showing up. And I started coming across terms like DARVO, gaslighting, and word salad. And I thought, this is in my marriage. This explains everything on Betrayal Trauma Recovery Instagram, yeah. **Anne:** So you’re first introduced to these ideas, that maybe it’s abuse. You learned the difference between psychological abuse vs emotional abuse. Most women are shocked. Like, how did I not know? And then also totally not shocked simultaneously. It’s a relief. Because it’s like I knew something was wrong, and this is it. Can you talk me through your thought process? **Margaret:** At first I was like, okay, I know what physical abuse is. You know, everybody has a clear understanding of that. So then when the whole concept of, no, this is psychological abuse or emotional abuse. I had to listen and re-listen to podcasts and go, okay, him having affairs and then coming home. T And I’m not having informed consent to what’s happening to my body, and bringing home risks to my health. Because of his behavior. It was so painful to realize that we’d been married that long. The level of manipulation, at the end, I would just sit and he would talk, and I would just sit and hold my head, okay, okay. ## EMOTIONAL & PHYSICAL SAFETY **Anne:** Pretty violent episodes, and maybe it will help you, maybe not, reframe it to think that that is the definition of survivor right there, abuse survivor. That you survived psychological abuse and emotional abuse. And you were resisting, and that was all you could do at that time because of how scary your situation was. **Margaret:** I think deep down in my core, I knew, I think that’s why physically and intimately I couldn’t respond anymore. There was a dread, and I slept on the edge of the bed with my back to him. And I would wake up in the morning in the same position wondering how did I not fall off the bed? You know, because I think I knew I wasn’t emotionally safe with him. He has punched holes in doors. He has yelled, not laid hands on me. But there’s that fear, especially because I carried that fear and trauma from my childhood. So like, we want to avoid triggering any of that. So you’d be a good wife, and you don’t trigger that. And being the Christian woman, I was like, I wanted my marriage to work. I’ve got four kids and I’ve been homeschooling them. And I always said divorce would stop with me because my parents were divorced. Like, I had that other family member’s divorce, and I didn’t want that for my family. I wanted the marriage to work. And so he says he’s sorry, he says he wants to be married, okay. But when you’re being manipulated and lied to, I forgive myself because I didn’t know. ## SEEKING LEGAL HELP **Margaret:** I didn’t know the extent and what I was seeing, it’s so hard. But I was willing to believe him to make the marriage work. **Anne:** It was the safest option at the time, because women are really smart. **Margaret:** Yeah, I’ve got kids. I’m doing homeschool. And how do I navigate going back to work? I’ve been dependent. I just stayed home for 27 years. And I finally texted a friend of mine, my good friend for 20 years. I called her, I said, well, I’m pretty sure we’re done. I can’t do this anymore. And I told her what had happened, and she started asking her friends very covertly, very secretly. We need a lawyer. I need a lawyer for my friend. I had planned a trip that following weekend to visit El Paso to see my daughter. She had by this point married and lived in El Paso, and I flew out to see her. And that was a godsend to be away that first weekend. So I could process what was happening. To get distance from the psychological and emotional abuse. They got me a burner phone, because I was concerned he was spying on my phone. And I found out months later, my son came to me and said, Mom, one day when I got in dad’s car, I heard your voice coming through the speakers. Dad did something quick and shut it off. He was definitely reading my texts, my emails, listening to my phone calls. So when you realize the level that he has been going through to keep track of you. ## PSYCHOLOGICAL & EMOTIONAL ABUSE: USING MEDITATION TO HEAL **Margaret:** And I told my friends, somebody asked me, are you afraid for your life? I said, I don’t think so, but I need you to know that God forbid, I’m in an accident and in the hospital. Because I do not want him to have power of attorney over me. I don’t want him to have medical power over me. I’m letting everybody know. And I am not suicidal, and I would not run away because I have four kids, even though they’re adult kids. I was like, I would never leave them. So I just needed people to know that, because at this point you just don’t know what they’re capable of. And he knew he was going to take a loss financially, because in the state I’m in, we get half, although he cheated me out of half of the home. Which is another story, but yeah, he was not going to be happy about that. We went to mediation, and signed paperwork, and then the final papers were January of this year. It was a heavy grief. It was really hard in the beginning to say the word abuse. I think because in society, we just think of physical abuse as abuse. If it’s psychological abuse vs emotional abuse, or mental, like that’s not really abuse, right? Because you’re okay. **Anne:** Do you feel okay? **Margaret:** I didn’t, I wasn’t. I still have to return to my faith, because there are the marriage advice books and Christian marriage advice books. Reading all those things, I have good Christian friends who love me. But who would tell me things like marriage is hard, divorce is hard, choose your hard. ## SUPPORT & COMMUNITY **Margaret:** And that I need. I’m like, good grief, if your marriage is that hard, choose divorce, that is not heart free. And then the whole God hates divorce sentiment. Which we now know and is becoming more widely talked about. That’s taken out of context, you know, that scripture is taking out of context, and that’s not accurate. And so now I have all those tools. Now I know, that this was not just a hard marriage. It was an abusive marriage. Where one person was a master manipulator, a pathological liar, I survived. The last words I told him, he said, Oh, you’re always the victim. And I said, no, I’m an overcomer. I stand on that. I have been overcoming, I am overcoming, and yet it was abuse for 31 years. And so that’s going to take time, and I may always have those triggers. I’ve since gone back to that counselor, because I wanted to let her know. And once she heard all the pieces, she goes, there was no way this was going to work. Because when she talked to his counselor, his counselor said a whole different story. He told the counselor different scenarios of what was going on, so my ex was going to his counselor and mine. And he would go to my mother-in-law and lie about me. He called my best friend and tried to talk to her and tell her stories about me. The psychological abuse and emotional abuse were so crazy. He called my brother-in-law to set me up. He went to our pastor. The pieces started unfolding, and it was so mind blowing. So hard to believe. ## ESCALATION & MORE LIES **Margaret:** That the person supposed to have my back and do life with me would go to this extent. He was out for himself and protecting his image. Everybody was shocked. And then they think, is it because he almost died? Maybe he’s having this crisis, and I was like, no, this has gone on for years, it just escalated. **Anne:** It’s interesting that it escalated after his near death experience. Because so many women, me included, are praying for something to wake him up. We think maybe a car accident would help him understand that he is psychologically and emotionally abusive, like my ex got hit by a car. I’ve actually never told that story, and I will soon, on the podcast. He didn’t die, but I did think surely this will help him understand. And even that didn’t help. And I think one of the reasons is because they know. They manipulate us to think they don’t understand what they’re doing. Or maybe they need to be educated, or maybe communication will improve it, but they know what is going on and know it the whole time. And so to them, this is no wake up call, because knowing has never helped them decide to change, because they’ve known every step of the way. **Margaret:** Right, I don’t know if they just lied to themselves, if they’re in denial. He, even now, has never had an open, honest conversation with any of my kids about the divorce and the lie behind it, not once. One of my older sons went to him, and my son came back and said, dad said he’d put a pin in it and we’d get back to it, which never happened. ## PSYCHOLOGICAL ABUSE VS EMOTIONAL ABUSE: SO MANY LIES **Margaret:** My son tried to talk to my mother-in-law, and she was, no, no, you just don’t understand. He told my daughter in an email that he just has communication issues. And that was the root of everything. And if I had been better, as a wife, been a better listener, loved him, compassionate, it would have worked out. I don’t know how they sleep. I don’t know how they look at themselves in the mirror. **Anne:** Yeah, I don’t either. I think that all that is just a lie too. And people, me included, have a hard time being like, wow, they do lie about everything. Because if they said the truth, I choose to do this, they’ve never wanted to say it in the past. Why would they start now to tell the truth? Habitual psychological abuse and emotional abuse is part of their character. **Margaret:** When it’s been going on for so long, the lies now, or there’s so much, so many of them. Like I said, I caught him in that one lie. He couldn’t even keep the facts straight anymore. There’s so much of it. I have such a deep desire to pay it forward for other women who may hear themselves in my story. Hopefully, they’re earlier in their marriages, and they don’t stay as long. If you feel something’s off, go with your gut. For so many years, I’ve ignored my gut instincts. And took him in his word, go with your gut. If something feels off, it’s probably off. And be there for other women. I now am in a full-time job. And there are two women where I work that I can encourage now, because they’re going through their own, struggles, divorces, and trauma from their own marriages. ## WANTING TO HELP OTHER WOMEN **Margaret:** I know God has put me where I’m supposed to be with these women. And that has been my prayer. If I can help just one woman out there, give her the courage to stand up and say, Nope, I’m done. I’m done, and walk away. That makes me feel better. And I know it’s worth something. It couldn’t have all been for nothing. I wanted a happy home, but it wasn’t for lack of trying. I know I did my best with what I was being told. And I can hold my head up high. The marriage was killing me, I couldn’t stay. **Anne:** Thank you so much for being brave and sharing your story. It will help other women. Just hearing other women’s stories, even without my enlightening commentary, if I can be sarcastic, is so helpful. **Margaret:** Yes. **Anne:** When you hear someone else say it, it sounds awful, because it is awful. Going through psychological and emotional abuse is terrible. Then realizing this is exactly what’s happening to me. And it’s just as awful. And I am just as important as the woman sharing this story. **Margaret:** Right, because you feel like good grief, you know, it’s embarrassing. But I was in a fog. I wanted to believe him. I wanted the marriage to work, and I have four kids. Yeah, and I’m being told as a Christian woman. That if you pray enough, submit enough, be the good wife, do all the things, he’ll come around, it’ll work. **Anne:** Having been through it. **Margaret:** Yeah. **Anne:** There’s no way to describe it to people who haven’t. But there are good people who haven’t been through it. They still probably can’t understand it on the level that women who have been through it can. ## HOPE FOR THE FUTURE **Margaret:** I agree. My mother had her own abusive situation, and I didn’t appreciate that. Until now, I’ve gone through my own. I knew it was bad. And I would never say it wasn’t traumatic for her. But it’s not until you go through your own trauma with a spouse. That you go, oh, this is why she didn’t want to be around him at the holidays. I was like, hey, this makes sense. **Anne:** Yeah, everything becomes pretty clear, yeah. **Margaret:** Yeah, I appreciate women going through the divorce process. And how difficult it is with the court systems. And lawyers, that’s a hard path to navigate. I attended [Betrayal Trauma Recovery group sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/), early on in the whole process. And loved it, I need community. I would go to Betrayal Trauma Recovery group sessions a couple of times a week which was amazing. I tell people, you need to do this. If you can’t afford anything else, you can afford this, especially with a marriage with betrayal and psychological and emotional abuse. I know that from last year when I started my job to this year, my BTR coach, she’s like, you’re a different person. I was very beat down, and this year I carry myself a little better, a little stronger. I’m excited for the future. I know it’s going to be good. **Anne:** It will be. You’re awesome. **Margaret:** Thank you. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast **Tags:** abusive relationship --- ### [Is Online Infidelity Cheating? - 7 Things The Research Confirmed](https://www.btr.org/is-online-infidelity-cheating/) **Published:** June 10, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Is online infidelity cheating? Here's what researchers found out. **Content:** Did you recently discover you husband flirting with women online or using pornography? Are you confused, hurt, devastated, and afraid? If your wondering “Is online infidelity cheating?”, here are 7 things you need to know based on the research. Did you know that online cheating is a form of emotional abuse? To see if you’re experiencing any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take our[ free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ## 1. SOMETIMES WHAT YOU DISCOVERED IS JUST THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG It can be really upsetting to find out your husband is talking to other women online or committing online infidelity. Learning about his lies and secret life might make you feel a mix of emotions like anger, sadness, confusion, and betrayal. You might wonder, “Why did he do this?” or “Am I not enough?” Online infidelity is cheating. These feelings are normal, and it’s important to let yourself feel them. Take it one step at a time, and don’t feel guilty for how you feel. This level of deception is a form of intimate partner [violence that includes emotional & psychological abuse](https://www.btr.org/emotional-abuse-checklist/) and coercion. There’s no right way to react to this level of emotional and psychological abuse you’ve experienced up to this point. There’s also no wrong way to react. When it happened to me, I vacillated between wanting to be close to my husband and never wanting to see him again. ## 2. ONLINE INFIDELITY: MANY WOMEN HAVE DISCOVERED THEIR HUSBANDS LIES Realizing that your husband has been lying to you about how he uses his time or what he does online is shocking. Seeking support from others who understand your situation can make a world of difference. [Consider a support group, like those offered by Betrayal Trauma Recovery, where you can connect with women who’ve experienced this type of emotional abuse.](https://www.btr.org/group/) Don’t get support anywhere that doesn’t consider this a serious emotional and psychological abuse issue. The significant trauma you’re experiencing is real. You deserve a safe place to process your trauma, without having to do anything for a man who’s been lying to you. ## 3. IS ONLINE INFIDELITY CHEATING? IT’S NOT YOUR FAULT One of the first thoughts you might have is, “What did I do wrong?” But it’s essential to understand that your husband’s online behavior isn’t a reflection of your worth. His choice to view explicit content stems from his exploitative privilege, not from any failing on your part. Yes, online infidelity is cheating. seeing the situation accurately is crucial to begin making your way to emotional safety. ## 4. LEARN WHAT IT MEANS TO BE PSYCHOLOGICALLY SAFE Psychological safety means those around you value honesty. If you’re psychologically safe with your husband, that means he never deceives you or obscures the truth to construct a false reality. Establishing psychological safety from someone who has shown a history of deceit is important. [The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast](https://www.btr.org/podcast/) helped me more than anything. I wish I would have found it sooner. I couldn’t believe how helpful it was. ## 5. FOCUS ON SELF-CARE Amidst the chaos, it’s crucial to take care of yourself. Prioritize activities that make you feel good and distract you from the pain. Whether it’s reading a book, going for a walk, or spending time with friends, self-care is essential for your healing process. I watched all seven seasons of the *Golden Girls*, and I gardened. Anything that helps you is what you need. ## 6. IS ONLINE INFIDELITY CHEATING, LEARN EFFECTIVE EMOTIONAL SAFETY STRATEGIED Most women who experience this don’t know exactly what to do. Many turn to couple therapy, addiction recovery therapy, or clergy for help. Therapists and clergy don’t receive training in this type of abuse. They often prolong a woman’s suffering. To learn effective strategies and know what to do next, I enrolled in [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). It changed my life. I have no idea what I would have done without learning the safety strategies. ## 7. ONLY SEEK PROFESSIONAL HELP FROM WOMEN WHO UNDERSTAND THIS TYPE OF ABUSE Navigating the emotional turmoil of discovering your husband’s online infidelity can be overwhelming. [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/group/) will help you walk through the chaos. ## TRANSCRIPT: IS ONLINE INFIDELITY CHEATING? ![is Looking at Stuff Online](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Is-Looking-At-Stuff-Online-cheating.webp "is Looking at Stuff Online Cheating")**Anne:** Heidi Hastings and Rebecca Lucero Jones, two researchers are back on the podcast today. They’re going to share the results of two studies. #### Study 1: Impact of Partner’s Online Infidelity on Women’s Religiosity **Anne:** The first is how their partner’s online infidelity affects women’s religiosity and spirituality. #### Study 2: Impact of Partner’s Online Infidelity on Women’s Sexuality **Anne:** And then the results of when they studied how a partner’s online infidelity affected a woman’s sexuality. Their research revealed some interesting things about online infidelity, otherwise known as [pornography use.](https://www.btr.org/counseling-for-cheating/ "pornography use.") ## ONLINE CHEATING? DETAILED FINDINGS ON WOMEN’S RELIGIOSITY **Anne:** So Heidi and Rebecca, you studied how husband’s use affects women’s religiosity and spirituality. Can you share what you found? **Heidi:** People taught them the husband is the leader in the home. They felt unsettled looking back on it, how that had actually put them at risk, or they’d given up their whole identity to serve him. And gender roles also within religion were disturbing to them that their role as a woman, as the wife in the home, was really dismissed. Tracy, a participant, looked at gender roles in scripture. And she referred to the story of Queen Esther in the Old Testament. She said it’s not just the theme of strong women and saving the Jewish people in Persia. To me, the biggest theme is that men have always behaved badly with male entitlement, and that has been destructive to women. And women decided to stay in the marriage because of their religion. For some women, that was because they had honored their marital vows. They were trying so hard to keep their part of the vows, regardless of what had happened. And staying in the marriage for the sake of religion didn’t mean they were healed or had a positive marital relationship. Many of them stayed in the marriage, and they were sleeping in different bedrooms or on different stories of the house. In order to make things work economically and keep their vows in what way they could. But there were some women grateful that they had stayed in the relationship. Because of their commitments to their religion, because they healed the marriage eventually, ## VARIED OUTCOMES IN MARRIAGES **Heidi:** Some who lived with this issue for a long time, the length of time since their discovery varied from nine months to two or three decades. Still had terrible marriages. We had many outcomes. About a third stayed married, and were happy with it. About a third stayed married, and were not happy with it. And about a third were divorced. **Anne:** That answers my question. Because a lot of times I’ll interview them and they’re like, I did this program. It was incredible. He’s doing great. Our marriage is better. And then they’ll come back three years later and say, oh my word, he was lying to me the entire time, it was all grooming. I found something else. I’ve also found when a couple goes to therapy and they think that they’re successful, and the therapist thinks they’re successful, and it’s like, oh, awesome. And then they don’t go to therapy anymore. And then If she finds out he was lying that entire time, they were going to that particular therapist. That they don’t go back to that same therapist, so they go to a different one. So that therapist would never know that he lied the whole time and was manipulating. They usually don’t circle back around to the same people they sought help from in the first place. They usually move on because they think like, well, that didn’t work. **Rebecca:** Yeah, as a therapist, it is tricky to work with any type of infidelity or deception, because you don’t know if people are telling the truth. Clients lied to me many times. The wife may ask herself is online infidelity cheating? ## CHALLENGES WITH THERAPISTS **Rebecca:** It would be embarrassing to come back to the therapist and admit you’ve lied. And it could be the husband doing a power play to not return to the therapist. **Anne:** Yeah, over seven years, we went to four different therapists, but I think going to multiple therapists is common. Was that a question in any of your studies? **Heidi:** It was not, but several of the women brought that up. They went to therapists who didn’t help them. Who didn’t understand betrayal trauma. Who blamed them, or they felt disconnected from, and that was more harmful. And so they talked about switching therapists multiple times, without me asking anything about that. So one of the other things that was big in the women wrestling with their religion was unmet expectations of religious leaders. So they thought their religious leader could fix the problem. You know, all he needed to do was talk to his religious leader, and somehow it would be fixed. They thought the religious leader would at least hold him accountable. Women felt disenfranchised when that didn’t happen. When clergy let husbands off easily. The wives thought it was. And who knows, if he told them everything or just minimized it. Religious leaders gave them poor advice, because they didn’t understand the woman’s perspective of betrayal. And they felt like there were often dismissive attitudes. ## ONLINE INFIDELITY: RUTH & NICOLE **Heidi:** A woman named Ruth said, a bishop has got to be able to get him to stop and tell him that he can’t do this anymore. Then everything will be okay. Nicole said, my religion didn’t give me the tools I needed to put my foot down earlier. This is my marriage too. You don’t get to be the authority on me if you’re acting in sin. A religious leader that tells me I need to have it with my husband more, and that’s how I’m going to help him stop online infidelity, is not speaking for Christ. She’s not speaking the Bible. She told me the story she heard. **Anne:** Whoa, did you just say a woman religious leader? Who is causing [marital coercion?](https://www.btr.org/what-is-marital-coercion/ "marital coercion?") **Heidi:** Uh huh. Yeah, we had, we had several women that had women religious leaders. **Anne:** And they weren’t better, huh? **Heidi:** Not when they were speaking from tradition. This finding is that those wrestling with religion, who’d felt overlooked, ignored, dismissed and silenced by a leader. The resources all went to her husband, rather than resources going to support her. Rather than the leader regularly meeting with her, it was with her husband. So women experienced a sense of disenfranchisement with the expectations they had of their religious leader. Which they often projected onto the religion. And they’re like, I don’t know what I believe anymore. Not all of them, but definitely some of them. And then they had these challenges to their faith. Because they felt their religious leader was linked to God or called by God. They pulled away from their church, a few of them, not a lot of them. One woman changed several times. ## WOMEN WRESTLING WITH RELIGION **Heidi:** She started as a fundamentalist Christian, a very, very, very fundamentalist conservative. Her pseudonym is Colette. She said, “All these people promised me in church that your virginity is the best gift you can ever give to your husband. Such bull\*# and I don’t swear.” That’s a quote. She was like, I can’t believe how my leader taught me to serve, to do everything for him, and it put her in such a dangerous place. So she changed religion several times. Another woman, Esther said, we pulled away from the church. I didn’t pray or look to God for anything. Serafina said, “I don’t go to the synagogue anymore. That loss is profound. I have so many rabbis and cantors with problematic behaviors as clients, and she’s a therapist now. She said, it just feels so hypocritical. Rituals are important to me. What isn’t important to me is sitting and listening to a rabbi. Those who struggled with religion and left religion were a smaller percentage of our sample, but several struggled with multiple aspects of religion based on those things. Rebecca, do you want to take the next theme? **Rebecca:** Yeah, I’m going to talk about a few different aspects of healing and what kinds of relationships were helpful. This is key. Because when a woman experiences betrayal trauma, many times women would first seek guidance from religious leaders, rather than secular sources. And I think a lot of this is based on the assumption that if you have a shared belief that online infidelity is a sin, and online infidelity is cheating? Definitely yes. You would get better support. ## SUPPORT FROM INSIDE THE RELIGION **Rebecca:** And if you go to a secular source, that they may not share that belief with you. That your partner’s belief, you know, online infidelity would be harmful to you. The view of, is online infidelity is cheating. So it was important for them to seek support from someone who shared that, I would say worldview. We found that those professionals and religious leaders who really tended to the intersectional nature of these women’s identity. Meaning that their female identity was not the only identity they had. But also their religious identity. That it was important that they understood what it meant to have both of these identities at the same time, right? Be a religious woman, and that tending to both aspects of their identity was critical to helping these women heal. And also, I would say, find their own power. So one area that was important was support from inside the religion. So we talked about how sometimes religious leaders didn’t meet expectations. But when a religious leader was helpful to them, that was key, right? If they could show compassion, empathy and validation, this ended up being a safe place for them to share their experiences. It’s important that religious leaders show compassion and empathy. When a woman shares that this is happening in the marriage, right? That her partner has extramarital behaviors. And she, a lot of times, doesn’t quite know how to interpret what’s happening. We had one woman who shared this beautiful response that her rabbi had. Tracy shared: she, meaning the rabbi took me to the Mikvah. There’s a river that flows out of the Garden of Eden. ## IS ONLINE INFIDELITY CHEATING: A LISTENING RABBI’S RESPONSE **Rebecca:** And when Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden, they were so disconsolate and so despairing. They went and sat in that river weeping. The Mikvah is the sacred immersion in the living waters that flow from the Garden of Eden. And can be used anytime you want to reconnect to sources of renewal and creation. After the pollution that had happened to me, we went to the Mikvah. There are very specific prayers. You must be completely naked. You’re immersing yourself back into the waters of creation for purposes of rebirth and renewal. That was wonderful. And so we loved that story Tracy shared. Because here we see a rabbi seriously hearing what she has to say. Recognizing that this woman needed rebirth, of some sort of renewal. She felt so broken by her experience. And so I think that’s a beautiful story of how religion or religious rituals can heal. When leaders listen and understand the experience of the woman. The next part is to recognize the need for support outside the religion. So this was also helpful when religious leaders understood, I would say, the extent of their expertise. When a woman shares this, she often only knows the tip of the iceberg. She’s coming in crisis. So again, she hasn’t had the time to process all the things in the history where she may have felt or sensed something. She really, I would say, most of the time doesn’t know fully what she’s dealing with the fact that online infidelity is cheating. And plus, her husband has made concerted efforts to deceive her, and she may never know the full extent of what’s going on. ## SUPPORT FROM OUTSIDE THE RELIGION **Rebecca:** So when a religious leader gives advice based on one thing, she shares. Women in our study talked about how, if they couldn’t accept the statement I said about my partner emotionally abusing me. I certainly wasn’t going to tell them about the abuse. **Heidi:** They kind of dip their toe in to see. **Rebecca:** Yes, a lot. **Anne:** If he’ll be empathetic about this, then I could tell him more, kind of a thing. **Heidi:** Right, and so those who were met with compassion. **Rebecca:** Yeah, so they would test whether they could trust a leader. One of the women, Nicole, said it was important that she began to understand. That what she was seeing with her partner was much more serious than just oh, I just looked at a website. It is a a breach of trust and online infidelity is betrayal. She talked about her husband’s problem and said he watched it while he was driving, which is why he got in a car accident. He had five car accidents, and three were while watching it. He doesn’t learn. That’s why I tell him it’s not a sin. It’s an addiction, because no person is this dumb. As she learned more, she realized this is beyond the limits of a pastor. It’s dangerous. This finding, in particular, was interesting to me and Heidi, and it was that women need women for healing. What we found was that there was a lot of shame when somebody found out their husband was committing online infidelity. And sometimes some of these women, their husbands, had other behaviors that were extramarital. And one of the things that helped these women was finding older women within their religious tradition. ## WOMEN NEED WOMEN FOR HEALING **Rebecca:** Sometimes they had female leaders, though that wasn’t as common. Older women in the church mentored Noelle and helped her get through it. And that was one way that women went around the structure in a religion where you see many male leaders. Another one Betsy, talked about building a [support system with multiple women](https://www.btr.org/), including a coach, a support group, and friends. So she built herself a little village of women that could support her. And she said, it was so beautiful to have a woman cheer for me, support me and delight in my achievements, and just be fine with all my mess. That shows the beauty of healing with other women in your corner. Hearing other people with a similar experience who have also been on this same journey. And learning about how they’ve navigated their faith, how they’ve navigated their healing. That is a key part of many women’s healing. One of our participants, Faith shared, I was like, somebody understands. And the best thing was that I could see that people were farther along in the recovery. I want to die right now, but I might be okay after this is done. That captures how these groups give people hope for the future. And as a professional, I think it’s important for therapists to know that therapy may not provide the same level of hope. That you get in a group setting. So I think encouraging clients to find, it could be online or in person, support groups can be important as she moves through this experience of figuring out is online infidelity a betrayal, and what about other behaviors? ## ONLINE INFIDELITY: COMFORT FROM THINKING ABOUT A FEMALE COUNTERPART **Heidi:** Which we know you do, Anne, with Betrayal Trauma Recovery, so thank you for your work there. **Anne:** [Our daily support groups](https://www.btr.org/group/), yes. **Rebecca:** Yeah totally. The last thing that women talked about in reference to women needing women for healing. Was how comforting it was to think about a female counterpart. To the male god commonly discussed and worshiped in their own religion. And one of our participants, Tiffany, described how this was for her. She said she started collecting art and studying Heavenly Mother. And how that was healing. Tracy talked about how Judaism’s religious roots elevate women as equals and unified relationships with men. She explained that some words in Hebrew for God combined the masculine and the feminine. The term El Shaddai means breasts. And El, a Hebrew name for God, is directly derived from the name of the chief Canaanite male God represented by the bulls. So you have the merging of the masculine and the feminine, often translated as God Almighty, the compassionate, strong, powerful God, the masculine and the feminine together. It’s a religious belief that brought many women comfort to think about this feminine God. As someone who could understand her pain. It was very difficult with the traditional rhetoric in many religions, which may not necessarily deny the idea of a feminine God, but often leave it out in the discussions. And in terms of what they promote when they talk about God. But it’s interesting that many people, even within the religious tradition. That there was room for some sort of feminine God. And that this was a significant part of their healing was turning to this feminine God. ## THREE DIFFERENT RELIGIONS, SAME IDEA **Rebecca:** Rather than a masculine God that they often felt wouldn’t understand the level of pain they were experiencing. **Heidi:** About 10 percent of the women that spoke about this, but we felt like it was an interesting finding because they came from three different religions. I’m just going to read this quote. Colette said, “God is male and female. A group of pastors came here to hear me speak one time, and I made them read from the passage of the creation of Genesis. Where it says three times, in his image and likeness. Male and female, he created them. I said, what does that say about the nature of God? One pastor said if that’s true, it changes everything. And I said, it is true, and it does change everything. **Anne:** Oh, you’ve handpicked all the parts of the Bible that benefit you, but these parts you’re like, what? This is new to me. Okay. It’s been there the whole time. **Heidi:** And it’s a pastor. So we loved the last theme, spiritual growth, because we don’t want women who are just entering this phase. And just starting to listen maybe to your podcast, to think that the pain and heartache are all gone. Online infidelity that they’re going to experience with this, besides the trauma, when we asked the women, how have you changed? Their answers floored us. They were not what we thought, but many of the women got really emotional during that question. ## SPIRITUAL GROWTH & TRANSFORMATION **Heidi:** When they started talking about their most intimate spiritual moments. Many of them came with a deeper faith, with strengthened relationships with God, who truly transformed them into new people. With a new identity, a new, better version of themselves. They felt divine assistance from God. Sometimes they were very suicidal, more than half talked about being suicidal without us ever asking any questions about it. And often in that moment, they felt God would bring miracles. Some would have dreams, or could hear a voice or feel someone next to them. And that just gave them hope and kept them going. They had people come into their lives or resources come into their lives. I remember driving back from church late one night. It was dark, and the tears were pouring down my face. The only way I made it home was through the grace of God and his mighty protection. I felt his presence on my right shoulder, and I remember pleading with God and praying, just take me away. So I don’t have to feel this pain anymore. And he told me it’s not time yet. It’s not time. And she said, God is there. He’s watching and powerful. So through these personal experiences, the women found meaning in their adversity and experience, at least sometimes of peace. And many, many of them gained personal relationships with God that they didn’t have before. Previously, their experience with religion was more focused on the rituals of going to church or reading scriptures. Which many of them kept. However, they deconstructed their faith, and then built it up again. ## ONLINE INFIDELITY: FOCUSING MORE ON GOD THAN THEIR RELIGION **Heidi:** They focused more on God than on the religion. And they use the religion as a scaffolding to help them come to God. They learned to trust God to seek help, strength and support. **Anne:** What percentage of women chose to leave faith altogether from your study? **Heidi:** Two and one said she was coming back. Several did leave religion for a time, but then came back. when they had figured out their own way to reconstruct it. Either by completely changing religions, congregations, places of worship, or by changing their own perspective of the role of their own religion. Every one of them found their husband was unreliable and dishonest, and they could not trust him because online infidelity. And so in many cases, they started looking to God for truth, not to their husbands. They detached from their husbands and put God more in that central role, often. They found a deeper need for God. Tiffany talked about her experience with the nature of God completely changing. She said, I don’t even know who that God was that I believed in before. Because I have a whole new experience, which is stronger, brighter, bigger, and more abundant than ever. I’ve learned that Christ’s capacity to know my individual, unique, deep feelings of loss occurred. The hurt, pain, confusion, all the things, is so real. The last thing that the women talked about in this spiritual transformation was recognizing The spiritual, emotional and intellectual growth changed who they were. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## FINDING WORTH & A VOICE **Heidi:** Several even talked about being grateful for the experiences they had. Not all the women, but many of them, said those experiences gave them newfound confidence in themselves. They could speak, which many of them had silenced themselves. And especially, they spoke often about it, about betrayal of any kind including online infidelity. Zena said, the biggest thing I’ve learned is discovering myself. I truly didn’t know who I was, that I am a child of God. I have worth and I have a voice, and he wants me to use it. I’m not the same person I was before. I’m a new creation in God’s eyes. The women reported also through all that personal shame they had experienced. Working through that with the help of support groups, and learning to have more grace for themselves. Because so many blamed themselves for the whole experience. That they weren’t good enough, that they weren’t adequate enough to keep their husband tied to them. They found purpose in their suffering and went on a mission. Many of them help other women navigate similar trials, which I think you have done. And I love that so much. I just wanted to share one last quote from a woman named Cassie. She talked about taking complete responsibility for her spirituality, rather than relying on other people. She said, I had to learn to define faith, taking out all the middlemen and the structure. This is between me and God. While I say I still believe in having a church structure. I still see the value, but what I thought it would do for me is not what it did for me. So I had to learn to take a lot more personal responsibility for that. ## FINDING PURPOSE IN SUFFERING **Rebecca:** I know many of our participants said they were grateful for the experience because of who they ended up becoming due to this life crisis. I would say, I’m not going to negate that that’s the experience. But suffering in and of itself doesn’t create that person. It’s important that these women understand that they have that outcome, because they built that. In the face of immense suffering, they chose to see purpose in their suffering. They chose to find a way to take something awful, the worst thing that has ever happened to these women for most of them. And make something beautiful grow from that. And it’s important that the women understand that is something they did themselves. I just hate the thought of thinking that we have to suffer to become those people. But I think those women always had it in them. And that when they’re faced with a crisis, they were able to cultivate that in themselves. **Anne:** I thought that for a while, and so many women do, it’s like I deserve this because I was such a terrible person. Somehow, before that, God wanted to give me this, because only such a terrible trial would transform such a bad person. Like me into the person he wanted me to be. That’s what I would hear. But you were a wonderful person. You are a wonderful person. You didn’t bring this suffering upon yourself. He cheated online and it isn’t your fault. [Betrayal trauma from infidelity is so difficult.](https://www.btr.org/cheating-husband-says/ "Betrayal trauma from infidelity is so difficult.") Because you needed to be transformed. They’ll come out stronger, but not because they needed to and not because they were weak originally right? **Heidi:** Right? **Anne:** All of my insights are anecdotal from interviewing people for the last eight years. It’s awesome to have them in an actual published study. ## STUDY 2: IMPACT OF ONLINE INFIDELITY ON WOMEN **Anne:** So you did another study on how a husband’s online infidelity use affects his wife’s sexuality. So can you talk about the themes that came up in that study? **Rebecca:** So when we published this study, we only had a Christian population. It’s important to note that it is very traumatic to discover this. Often they’ve been led to believe their husband was not viewing it or that he did not have a problem with this, and this is very. I would say psychologically taxing on a woman. She has physiological symptoms, psychological symptoms. Many times women talked about not being able to speak for a period, like literally becoming mute for a short period. They talked about dissociating, feeling nausea, insomnia, suicidal ideation, shame. Many women describe it as the floor falling out from underneath them. Feeling disbelief and shock, feeling frozen, really questioning what they were seeing. This is a trauma response, all signs point to a traumatic response in their body. **Anne:** They’re not just discovering the it, cheating? They’re also discovering his lack of integrity. So they’re also discovering that he’s a liar at the same time. Online infidelity is just as damaging as a physical affair. **Rebecca:** Yes, walking in and seeing the man in the midst of viewing something was very traumatic. Sometimes women find garbage bags and garbage bags of explicit content, right? So sometimes they’re also discovering the sheer volume of what has happened. And that would be overwhelming for a woman. Who did not have any inkling that her husband had behaviors outside the marriage. ## PARTICIPANT TESTIMONY: ZENA’S STORY **Rebecca:** I wanna share a quote from Zena, one of our participants. She said that on D-day, that changed everything in my life. It shattered my heart to a million pieces, changed my foundation of what I was standing on. I was in shock. Once you find out news like that, it takes you a while to connect your feelings to your mind. I wasn’t able to process that, and rightly, how can you? It was very traumatic. But I didn’t react in rage. I didn’t understand. Why would you do such things? I was at a total loss. It was just too much dumped on me at one time to make any sense of that. I want to discuss that because I think it’s important to understand exactly what it’s like to discover, to then have the context for what happens to her. For some women, women had intensified desire following discovery. And this increase in desire was described by having three primary motivations. One was to control the husband’s use. One was to protect the relationship. Or it was to self soothe. And so a lot of this emotional response of any of these motivations often resulted in the woman feeling a little confused. So Tiffany described, even though I was so shattered, I felt this intense desire. Later I read, it’s typical. People will go one of two directions, either hyper or not at all. So I was like, let’s just be together all the time. Then we spent time in cycles based on how much I trusted him, until we got to a point where we mostly weren’t physical. ## SEEKING SAFETY THROUGH INTIMACY **Rebecca:** So we noticed that some women would describe this as a similar experience of becoming hyper Now, if you are experiencing PTSD, you are in a high arousal state. An anxious state and arousal doesn’t necessarily discriminate. So to me, physiologically, it is not surprising that women who are experiencing PTSD and a symptom of arousal would also feel heightened at the same time. **Anne:** I think it’s also a form of resistance, and when I say that, what I mean is they want safety and security. That is generally women’s primary motivation. They have faced this extremely dangerous situation, and the danger is coming from the person they’re supposed to rely on. So it’s confusing. But I just want to give women a lot of credit that they’re trying to be safe, and they think the safest thing to do is “meet their husband’s needs.” They are trying to stop the online infidelity. Society has said maybe a therapist or maybe clergy has told her this. And she might be thinking, Oh, they were right, I didn’t give him enough. And that’s just the manipulation that these type of abusers tell their wives. To get them to have it with them when they’re lying, so you can see how this becomes more problematic. **Rebecca:** I think that’s a great point. I think a lot of times when we maybe don’t have power in a situation. We would rather blame ourselves and think that we have control over an issue. Than acknowledge that maybe someone is abusing us. So in some ways it’s like, if maybe this has happened because I didn’t have it with him enough. If I have more I can control this. ## RELIGIOUS INFLUENCES & IDEAS ABOUT ONLINE INFIDELITY **Rebecca:** We hope to fix it. Like you said, we hope to create the safety we’re looking for. Because it would be so uncomfortable to think that our partner is not safe. I think it’s much more difficult to make the leap to, this person is misusing power against me, and this has nothing to do with me. I think that’s a bigger psychological leap. So I appreciate Anne, you sharing that. Because I was just going to share a quote from one of our participants. Samantha, that said, I want to make sure he gets what he needs from me in that department, so he doesn’t go looking again. And so you see that is a lot of women’s first reaction. if I give him enough, then he won’t need this other thing, Like we talked about in the study. On how women’s religiosity and spirituality were affected by their partner’s online infidelity and betrayal. We also saw some of those beliefs being iterated by religious leaders. You need to have more with him. If you do this, he won’t have this problem. And so you can see that there’s a lot of context for her believing such a statement or behaving in such a way. It’s pretty much been programmed in her to think that she is the one that will fix this. **Anne:** It’s also programmed in him. So many men in religious settings are told marriage is the solution to your problem. So if you’ve got a problem, you need to get married as soon as possible. And so that’s part of the abuse problem, she’s just a drug to him. ## SHUTDOWN & ASEXUALITY **Anne:** She’s not a person, so then she becomes the target of all of his angst. If he doesn’t feel “satisfied” because she was supposed to solve all of his problems. **Rebecca:** Yes, so the next sub theme we had was being shut down. So some women talked about having a hyper response, and then other women were shut down. When they discovered they just completely closed off to their husbands, right? They couldn’t, in no way, be open to that. So many times following the discovery. They would say things like, get out, don’t touch me, don’t get near me. Some women wondered if they were asexual right after the discovery, wondering if they’d ever been interested in it. Other women talked about realizing that the motivation for it seemed to always come from a sense of duty. And so we see women trying to understand maybe a lack of desire. After discovering that their husband had essentially a secret life. **Anne:** Yeah, which is coercion. **Rebecca:** Consent is fairly new. Unfortunately, the emphasis on consent is very new. We have a long history of women being obligated to men to please them. Even with a few lessons on consent, it doesn’t reverse the social ramifications for not abiding by those cultural scripts. So now we’re going to turn to our second theme, Heidi, do you want to take it away? **Heidi:** Sure. This theme builds upon the idea of the women were struggling with the loss of their identity or trying to understand what was going on with their bodies. ## RELIGIOUS LENS ON BODY IMAGE **Heidi:** And it’s interesting to look at this perspective from a religious lens. Because there’s research that shows religiosity actually acts as a protective factor in the development of positive body image for many women. But in the case of betrayal, it did the opposite. So many women in our study indicated their sense of identity and self worth was completely shattered with the thought of their husband committing online infidelity and cheating. Their thoughts and feelings surrounded comparing themselves to either what they saw in the explicit content. Or what they imagined might be in it. Or in the extramarital partners when that was the case. And experiencing shame about their own body. That comparison happened not only for the women comparing themselves to what they thought the women would look like or did look like. But some men would actually say, this is Gwen making the statement. Her husband said, I see you as beautiful now, but compared to explicit content, of course not. And just hearing those words devastated her. She said, my world had turned upside down. **Anne:** Mm hmm, well, and can you imagine the psychological abuse before that. She didn’t know about the it or affair partners, and he said, I’m not into it because I’m not as attracted to you as I used to be. And so her reality is that she’s just not attractive, and that’s what’s causing him to not want to be intimate with her. When she’s not aware that he’s masturbating to explicit content. And he can’t, because he’s already done it three times that day. ## ONLINE INFIDELITY & SELF-ESTEEM **Anne:** Even if they tried to be intimate, he couldn’t do it. That level of psychological abuse is extremely intense. Wrapping your head around, my husband was willing to let me think I’m some disgusting hag. So he had an excuse for why he couldn’t get it up. This is another reason why online infidelity is cheating. **Heidi:** Right exactly, that huge hit it took on their body image. Faith was one of the women in our study, she was a middle aged woman. She initially thought her husband’s use was “because I’m old, I sag and I have stretch marks.” And Mary a young Latina woman, said that her struggles with her body image came because she knew she didn’t have a model size body. We did have two women in our study who had plastic surgery. One was so sick for so long after that, and the other woman Anna said I don’t look at myself anymore. I don’t let myself take pictures and don’t think my body is attractive at all. I actually got a breast reduction at the beginning of last year for medical reasons. And I doubted myself so much, because basically he told me he would never look at me the same. And I was never going to be big enough anymore. Ever since then, I feel like there’s just too many scars on my body. There’s too much now for anybody to ever want that anymore. Astra had weight loss surgery, and she said, I can’t blame his addiction for my weight problem. That was obviously something I have a problem with, but then I can’t blame his addiction for making me have the surgery. But I definitely did have the surgery, because I felt less than and unloved, abandoned and extremely undesirable. ## STRUGGLES WITH SELF-WORTH **Heidi:** So this takes a huge hit, then also on their self esteem. Both struggled after the surgery in many ways. In Astra’s case, she ended up for eight years, having medical complications related to that decision. And then later on, she found out her husband had been looking at images of large women. She’s like, what? I don’t, I don’t get this. Overall self esteem takes a hit, and they felt they were not enough. If they had been, they could control the situation. So some studies I’ve seen show that it takes a woman sometimes at least a couple of years to learn how to climax. One woman named Cassie’s husband was so upset about her inability to achieve orgasm within that first year. That he sent her to a therapist to figure out what was wrong with her and what was wrong with her body, because she wasn’t satisfying him. **Anne:** She wasn’t satisfying him by not having her own orgasm? **Heidi:** That’s what he was saying. yes. That’s how he described it. She said, I felt so deeply that rejection of I’m not, it was so directly tied to my performance and so directly tied to my worth. And my value as a person and in the marriage. So that rejection, again, you’re talking about layer upon layer of hurt that comes from this. The woman named Faith said, I have this past trauma. I wanted to call the shots, and I wanted to be in charge of my own body and say, it’s not okay with me. I don’t want to do that right now, but he’d just get so mad. And I’m like, fine, just do whatever you want, which is very unhealthy. And I know that. ## MARITAL ABUSE **Heidi:** So, her experience demonstrates that women wanted to control their own body. But it impacted it and their belief about themselves in such sad, really severe ways. Several later identified marital coercion. **Anne:** I was thinking about an episode I did on abuse. I talked about a church leader who was giving a church talk about how non-consensual immorality was wrong. And I thought there’s a word for that. It’s rape. I think many people worry about using that word because of reporting. For some reason, if you say it, then it follows that you maybe have to report, and I’ve never talked to one woman remotely thinking about reporting. They’re not going to report, and whether they should report is a totally different discussion. But it’s interesting to me that other people put the two together when victims don’t necessarily. Victims are like, now I know what I’m dealing with. But I think therapists or clergy worry about the reporting thing. And rather than being worried about reporting, focus on what happened. How would you feel the most safe in your body, in your home? What would you like to do? How can we help you? That discussion is one that I think every woman is entitled to have without anybody thinking. I don’t want to say that. Because then what if she goes and reports it? **Heidi:** That is true. And in addition to that, I feel like for the religious leaders to, at the same time, be aware that it may not just be that one situation. ## ONLINE INFIDELITY CAUSES COMPLEX TRAUMA **Heidi:** It may be this complex trauma situation that’s digging up a host of things that often she never told anybody about. And so asking questions about that is important. **Anne:** And what makes it complex? Just go one step further. What was the complexity caused by? People don’t quite lean into that. Because they’re like, I always wonder, why are they willing to go up to a certain thing. But they’re not willing to logically connect the next dot. They’re willing to connect the three dots, but there’s one more dot. **Rebecca:** Yeah, one of the most insidious things about abuse is that it disconnects you from yourself in many ways. It’s hard to trust your gut, so often you don’t believe yourself. So when you get messages, don’t believe yourself on whether you know you’re ready for it. Always have it when your partner’s ready. There are many things happening that really divorce a woman from her own sense of knowing. I’m going to talk about theme three, which is how women became disenfranchised. When a woman experiences her husband using. Many times her experience has been prescribed, undermined, or ignored. And her struggle to meet her needs. We’ve talked a little bit about this already, but the culture scripts. For example, Samantha talked about how her husband told her. After we married, he said with authority, that guys need it at least once a day, and other similar things. I was surprised, but figured I’d better show up and meet his need. Because I didn’t want him to stray, especially since I knew he had a history of online infidelity. ## CULTURAL & RACIAL SCRIPTS **Rebecca:** I thought it was part of my new job as a wife to keep him satisfied. So I think that encapsulates how many women feel that pressure. These women didn’t have space to think about what they may want. Many times that’s not even part of the discussion. We had another participant talk about racial scripts. She is a black woman, and she said, we had to be tough. We were black women. We came from a long line of women who were abused by husbands and mistreated, cheated on. You had to be strong. You had to be tough, and you had to go out there and do what you got to do. And I want to highlight that black women in America have survived so much. And in many ways, I’m sure that those messages passed on from mothers and grandmothers have enabled this population to survive. That in and of itself is something that we have to recognize that many times there was no other option but to survive. **Anne:** Exactly, it was the best way they knew how to resist it. **Rebecca:** Exactly, yes, when you have always been in a context where you can either die or survive, you will choose survival. And, again, I think these are the cultural scripts that you’re born into. And many times there aren’t other options that are outlined for you. So there’s just one more quote I want to share about how these cultural scripts encourage that. ## RELIGIOUS TEACHINGS & COERCION **Rebecca:** Anna grew up in a extremely conservative faith, and she talked about what her pastor told her. And she said, our pastor said, many times women go into marriage and not like anything. They are shocked with what happens, but you just need to deal with it. Okay, and you know, let your husband do what he needs to do always. Even if you don’t like it, you’ll end up liking it. You do what the guy wants. **Anne:** What? You’ll end up liking it. That’s what people told her. **Rebecca:** This is what her pastor told her. **Anne:** Wow, wow. **Rebecca:** So I think we don’t know what everybody’s religious education has been, right? But when you have a pastor saying that you may have men who are having regular intimacy. **Heidi:** Her husband. He was very, very abusive. **Anne:** Even if it’s just “regular,” if she doesn’t want to do it, it’s coercion. It doesn’t matter how “mild” it is. Online infidelity causes coercion. **Rebecca:** Yes. But I think it’s important for religious leaders to remember that you don’t know who’s listening. **Anne:** I mean, not only you don’t know who’s listening to that, that’s never right. **Rebecca:** Yes. **Anne:** Like ever, so it should never even be said, let alone thinking about who’s listening. **Rebecca:** When I’m saying that, what I mean is I think some pastors can’t conceive of what might occur. And the truth is that, a statement like this really enables abusers. **Anne:** For sure, but in every context, the only thing a pastor should say is, you are just as important as your husband. And when it comes to it, you have the right to do what you feel comfortable with, and he needs to respect that, or he’s raping you. ## ONLINE INFIDELITY CAUSES A LACK OF EMOTIONAL INTIMACY **Rebecca:** Yeah, this was something that stood out to us, because it was about half of the women talked about their experience, lacking emotional intimacy. One woman described it. Throughout our marriage, there weren’t a lot of intimate emotional connections. So I felt lonely a lot, having it without emotional connection. I don’t think it is really generally super healthy. I think I actually use it to feel connected. You see, these women are desperate to connect and hope to get emotional intimacy sex. Then never being able to feel the emotional intimacy that can accompany a healthy relationship. The next theme is related to this, and that is mourning loss. So one third of the women reported that due to their husband’s use, he would not or could not engage with her intimately. And obviously that takes a toll on her in terms of her self esteem, her body image. Many of them had mentioned that frequent masturbation prevented him from connecting. And you know, one woman talked about how she got married when she was young, and she thought, I’m pretty cute, right? Why isn’t he able to perform? You know, this is happening at young ages, and I’m pretty confused about that. I think it’s interesting, because sometimes the narrative is she’s not interested in it. That’s why he does this, his behavior reaction to hers. And you actually see a lot of women mourning the connection they thought they would have in marriage. **Heidi:** Yes. And they could not believe that religious leaders didn’t tell them that that might have been an outcome, especially those who’d known about the it before. ## MALE-CENTRIC EXPERIENCES **Heidi:** They just understood, once we get married, it’ll all be okay. But they were like, wait a second. This is important information to know that there will be no intimate experience between us for years. Why was this information not shared? **Rebecca:** So the next sub theme is about a male-centric intimate experience. Many women talked about how often the marital intimacy experience focused on the husband’s preferences. And that societal norms had influenced this. Religious scripts, and explicit content, as the primary form of education for their partner. So it was focused on his pleasure instead of her pleasure. And in some cases they talked about, you know, reflecting back and seeing a grooming process. Cassie shared in particular, clearly I could see looking back, but there was a progressive erosion of my own values. I did things in increasing desperation to fix things. It’s important that all involved know. How important it is to create space for women to develop their own values, preferences, and not continue doing what the husband wants. So the last sub theme is abuse in marriage. So many participants recognize the different forms of abuse they had experienced in the marriage. Whether there was aggression, control, lack of consent, it took a lot of time and processing to recognize what had happened. One woman, Ruth, shared her husband used a lot of unwanted touch. Like being asleep and him doing whatever he wanted. I learned a lot about abuse and what abuse looks like. So I think many women had no, like you’ve talked about, abuse education. ## IT’S CRUCIAL THAT WOMEN TELL THEIR STORY **Rebecca:** They didn’t know what happened, but they could process that later. One other participant shared about her experience. This is Anna, she shared, “He started getting verbally abusive and cussing and yelling at me. But people told me as a religious woman, you just need to do what your husband wants. I didn’t at the time, didn’t know that is considered rape.” “Now that I’m out of that and everybody’s like, well, did you give consent? I was like, no, I said no many times. Then that’s not consensual.” That quote is powerful. It can seem clear to us on the outside as she retells this, but I think it’s important to recognize that many of these women have been in this marriage for a while. Women are in contexts where they haven’t clearly seen the abuse. And so it is so crucial that they tell their story. Because if you assume that abuse couldn’t be there. Which I think some people just think watching this is such a normative behavior. There wouldn’t be abuse. But there is, and you don’t want to miss that. **Anne:** Thank you so much, Rebecca and Heidi, for sharing your findings today. **Heidi:** I appreciate the opportunity to let women know that research is starting to back up their experiences. And we appreciate what you’re doing at Betrayal Trauma Recovery to help the women as well. **Rebecca:** We really appreciate you having us, Anne. Thank you so much. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Stages of Betrayal Trauma: 4 Powerful Steps to Healing](https://www.btr.org/what-are-the-4-stages-of-betrayal-trauma/) **Published:** June 17, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Learn about the stages of healing from betrayal trauma. Get the resources you need to heal. **Content:** A husband’s lying, infidelity, gaslighting, and emotional abuse causes betrayal trauma. The effects can leave women feeling lost, confused, and unsafe. Understanding the 4 stages of betrayal trauma can help you process what’s happening and take meaningful steps toward healing. Most men who betray their wives are emotionally abusive. Before moving on, take our [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/) to see if you’re also experiencing emotional abuse. ## THE 4 STAGES OF BETRAYAL TRAUMA When a husband lies, cheats, or manipulates, it can make a woman feel stressed and worried. She might have trouble eating or sleeping. Betrayal can hurt a lot, but that’s why it’s so important to figure out what’s going on. Then, you can start to heal and feel better as soon as possible. ## BETRAYAL TRAUMA STAGE 1: CONFUSION Long before a woman discovers her husband’s lies or infidelity, women feel confused and unsure about what’s wrong. If it happens to you, you usually know something feels off, but it’s hard to pinpoint exactly what. This is critical, because that unease is your intuition signaling that there’s an issue. Often, abusers contribute to this confusion by blaming you, making you feel like you’re the problem. Many women try couple therapy during this time, which doesn’t seem to help. Sometimes, trusted friends or professionals accidentally make things harder by giving simple advice. Like saying you should work harder on the relationship. During this time, it’s normal to feel confused and even blame yourself. However, it’s important to remember this: feeling confused means you are standing up to the abuse and trying to understand what’s really happening. Keep going, and don’t give up! To learn more about this type of psychological abuse, listen to [The Free Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast](https://www.btr.org/podcast/). ## BETRAYAL TRAUMA STAGE 2: DISCOVERY OF LIES & INFIDELITY When a woman finds out about her husband’s lies and infidelity, it’s a new type of trauma – and also a relief. They feel relieved that they discovered what’s wrong, but they’re often re-traumatized. Because the wrong kind of support can worsen the trauma. Most professionals don’t understand that emotional abuse and coercion are what’s causing the betrayal trauma. Instead, they blame women and say she is the cause. This can be confusing and frustrating. It’s imperative that you find the right help, because this stage of addiction recovery counseling or couple therapy will make things worse. Our daily,[ online Group Sessions](/group/) are a safe place where only women will share their betrayal trauma experiences. We’d love to see you in a session today. ## BETRAYAL TRAUMA STAGE 3: THE RIGHT EDUCATION When you finally get the right kind of support and education, the puzzle pieces begin to fit together. You’ll recognize betrayal trauma for what it is, and you’ll start to see abusive patterns for what they’ve been all along. You will see that lying and gaslighting are not your fault. These actions are done on purpose to hurt and control you. This is when many people stop blaming themselves. Then, they start setting rules to keep themselves safe, both emotionally and physically. [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) helps women know exactly what’s going on and gives them safety strategies to protect themselves from this type of emotional and psychological abuse. ## BETRAYAL TRAUMA STAGE 4: SAFETY IS THE TREATMENT The final stage is applying what you’ve learned to gain more and more emotional and psychological safety. At BTR.ORG, we help survivors protect their thoughts from manipulation and trauma. First, you’ll learn how to create a safe life for yourself. This could mean leaving an abusive husband or building strong emotional boundaries. Next, you’ll start to see how strong and capable you are. Step by step, you’ll gain the tools to feel safe and in control again. Our coaches guide you step by step, so you feel calm and confident again. ## THE 4 STAGES OF BETRAYAL TRAUMA: TAKE THE NEST STEP Betrayal trauma can feel really hard to handle, but you don’t have to face it by yourself. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we help women feel safe and start healing. No matter if you’re in a relationship, separated, or divorced, we have tools and resources to support you every step of the way. ## TRANSCRIPT: WHAT ARE THE 4 STAGES OF BETRAYAL TRAUMA? **Anne:** It’s just me today, I’m going to talk about, the 4 stages of betrayal trauma. And how important it was to figure out [how to set boundaries with my husband. ](https://www.btr.org/how-to-set-boundaries-with-my-husband/ "how to set boundaries with my husband. ") That’s where the Living Free Workshop comes in. Because safety is the treatment. Women see that once they’re emotionally and psychologically safe, their betrayal trauma symptoms almost completely disappear. I started podcasting in 2016. A long time ago. If you look at the podcast feed, it doesn’t go back that far. And the reason it doesn’t go back that far is when I started podcasting, I learned in real time and shared my experience of attempting to get to safety. As I studied, I also did over 300 long form interviews with betrayal trauma victims, both on the podcast and in person. Through doing that, I began to see clear patterns. And I was also running my own experiments, seeing what worked and what didn’t in my own life. And seeing what was working and not working in other women’s situations. I learned the 4 stages of betrayal trauma. After discovering the [Living Free strategies](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/), I actually got to safety. And then I realized that many of these very old recordings also had incorrect information. Theories or principles that I was testing through trial and error that I now know do not work. I didn’t want to hurt any woman, so I removed that incorrect information. But today, I’m going to share several recordings from long ago, when I was still trying to learn how to apply the safety principles. You’ll hear a section where I talk about helping my son visualize his emotions. And those same types of visualizations are the pattern I later used to write in [the workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). I used that to help me heal, and has since helped so many other women heal from the inside out. ## SHARING OLD RECORDINGS **Anne:** As you listen to these old recordings, you’ll hear the seeds of all the services we have here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery being planted. And the rest of this episode is snippets from those old recordings. After seven years of attempting to “help my [husband” deal with his addiction](https://www.btr.org/how-to-deal-with-an-addict-husband/ "husband" deal with his addiction") and his anger problems. He sprained my fingers and pushed me against the kitchen cabinets during an argument. He was arrested for domestic violence. The judge gave him a no contact order, which is a protective order. And that was the first time I’d ever conceived that he was really an abusive person. I waited, hoping for him to take accountability, change, truly repent and return home to us for nine months. And he decided to file for divorce. During that nine months, I prayed and prayed. And the only answer I received was to start a podcast, which is how this podcast started. I used to go by the name Anon, Anne Blythe is not my real name. My friend had a Facebook account with the name Anne Blythe. Named after Anne Blythe from Anne of Green Gables. I ended up adopting that name and that Facebook account to represent all of us, because my story is the universal story. The details might be a little bit different, but we all go through a period of trying to “help our husbands” or support him this is one of the first stages of betrayal trauma. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## THE 4 STAGES OF BETRAYAL TRAUMA: GARDENING AS A METAPHOR **Anne:** I am an avid gardener. I have nine fruit trees, five 12 by two garden boxes, a huge section of my garden in my front yard, where I grow self-proclaimed prize winning pumpkins. On Monday, my five year old son and I planted the corn. It was such a sweet time. I dug the hole and he put the seed in. The obvious symbolism of faith that it takes to plant this seed so small and hope that in a few months we’ll have an eight foot stalk with delicious corn on it. All my garlic is growing great, and I planted that in the fall. So planting a little bulb that, the next year, will turn into the most delicious, rich, buttery garlic. It’s called Romanian Red, and it’s amazing, and you can’t get it at the store. In my front yard, I have irises and tiger lilies, canna lilies and salvia. Every kind of beautiful perennial you can imagine. Every year they get better, bigger, and more beautiful. It’s been almost three years since my ex’s arrest, and back then my front yard and all the perennials were kind of sad. It was like three irises that came up, but now they’re gorgeous. Everyone comments on how beautiful my garden is. I didn’t know that my garden would be so beautiful, but I had faith that it would be. And I dug things up, I split plants, and I moved things around. And had faith that my hard work would pay off, and it has. I have not yet seen the hard work pay off with my setting boundaries. ## STRUGGLES OF SINGLE MOTHERHOOD **Anne:** My life is still really hard. I’m a single mom of three kids. Life is hard every day. It’s hard to get dinner on the table. It’s hard to keep the house clean, it’s really stressful and very overwhelming. There are days when I sit on the couch and stare into space, and then end up crying because I’m overwhelmed. I’m still nervous about the future. I still don’t know exactly what’s gonna happen. But if my garden is any indication, as I stand there, especially my front yard with all the beautiful perennial flowers, I’m like, this feels safe, and this feels secure, and guess what else? Beautiful, I have faith that my life will be beautiful like that. My garden has evolved to be something amazing. Maybe I will evolve to be something amazing someday. Right now, it seems like I’m still digging around in the dirt with nothing to show for it. Talk about late bloomer, I’m like the world’s latest bloomer, ha ha. But maybe when I do, I’ll be like that big, beautiful iris. I want to talk about nightmares for a minute. My ex was supposedly in recovery, but I was still having nightmares. In the dreams, I was a single mom, and I knew I needed a husband. So I was like, there was that one guy I remember him. He was kind of nice. Where is he now? Why isn’t he here? And then I would try and find him and then I would find him and he would be kind of mean to me, brush me off. That was the nightmare. I had different forms of that all the time. ## NIGHTMARES & INTUITION **Anne:** I remember I would put my hand over on him and touch him, and be like, oh good. It was just a dream, whew, like every night. And then I would tell him about it, and I would say, I’m having these nightmares. I don’t know what’s wrong with me. Everything seems fine with us. One night when I was lying in bed right next to him, I said, I’ve been having these nightmares. Not knowing this was one of the 4 stages of betrayal trauma. I really feel like something bad’s gonna happen. And I didn’t pause to let him speak. I said, yeah, but it’s just crazy. It must just be me. I’m still mentally messed up. Well, he never said anything about it. But now that I look back, he not only didn’t say anything, and I talked myself out of it. But he also didn’t try and comfort me. There was a woman I talked to recently. She said, I’m having nightmares almost every night, but I wake up and look at him and everything’s fine. And I said, when you tell him about your nightmares, how far away is he? Is he standing more than four feet away from you? Looking at you, but not responding? She started crying. She said, that’s exactly what’s happening. Confusion is one of the 4 stages of betrayal trauma. I said, I’m not sure what’s going on. But an empathetic, caring, connected person would not be four or five feet away in that situation. They would be giving you a hug. They’d say, I’m so sorry you’re having these nightmares. I love you. I care about you. Is there anything I can do? Something, some kind of connecting, interacting thing. ## STAGES OF BETRAYAL TRAUMA: IS SOMETHING GOING ON? **Anne:** But the standing like four or five feet away with this blank stare on your face, like a deer in the headlights. And more and more as I hear these stories of women who have these nightmares. And then, months later, they find out something was really going on. Even though in their waking hours it seemed like everything was fine. Not to say that everyone who has a nightmare, her husband is lying. Because thinking my husband was in recovery when he was not. He was lying to me and manipulating me. And I had those dreams. Now I see an indicator of a warning to me. Now that I’m disconnected from him. I rarely have those nightmares anymore. I have a friend whose husband has labeled her borderline and kept taking her in to get help. Her husband had been lying to her and gaslighting her, and he had a double life. Addiction was going on, and this was a way for him to avoid anyone looking at him and making her look crazy. There’s no way to actually recover if you’re still being abused like this. This friend of mine, she has now separated herself from her abusive spouse, and her borderline symptoms are gone. Now she’s having trauma symptoms. I have an unnamed autoimmune disorder. It’s not lupus, it’s not arthritis. I’ve been trying to get a diagnosis for a long time. I get super, super sleepy and all of my joints hurt really bad. So it has a lot of the same characteristics of these autoimmune diseases. So the doctors are like, yep, you have one. We don’t know what it is, it’s unnamed. And we should call it the betrayal trauma autoimmune disorder. ## THERAPY & BEING PRESENT **Anne:** I have spent so much time and money going to therapists, but not getting help for my trauma symptoms. I am paying them to sit there in their office and educate them about betrayal trauma. There was one therapist, it was like three months after my husband’s arrest. I was trying to convince her that my husband was abusive. It was crazy, wait a minute, what am I doing? I’m not going to her anymore. And I think she was confused because I didn’t want to divorce. So she was like, you’re saying your husband’s abusive, but you don’t want to get a divorce. Like, I don’t know how to help you. Yes, he’s abusive, I don’t want to get a divorce, and I need help. Like, can you accept me where I am? And she had no idea how to help me. Part of my betrayal trauma symptoms were that I did not hear my children when they were talking to me. And I wasn’t doing anything else. So I was available, and ready and willing to talk to them, but just didn’t hear them until they had said my name a few times. And then I was like, Oh, yeah, what is it? So zoning out, I found myself doing that frequently. So if I’m having a hard time concentrating. I feel the couch, maybe feel the couch fabric, maybe even touch my child’s arm, something that I can reconnect with the present moment. I actually sat on the couch with my five year old son, and we just sat there for like, probably a half hour. And he was spouting off. I didn’t even know what he was talking about. ## STRIVING FOR PEACE & STILLNESS **Anne:** I was listening to him. And I was acknowledging him. I was looking him in the eyes. I was like, let’s have a stare contest. And we just looked at each other and smiled for a while. And it was just that I thought, Oh, this is what I’m trying to do. Okay, I’m going to be in the here and now with my daughter. And I’ll be available to you. That’s, I think my biggest hurdle is, I’ve sat here with her for four minutes, and this is boring and I need to do the dishes. That’s what I’m struggling with the most right now. When I stop and stare at my daughter, I think, how long do I have to do this for? I want to get better at it and more practiced. Until that is what I crave, those quiet moments with my children, and living in that moment with peace and stillness. And also, my soul needs that every day. We need a period of time of quiet, both spending time with ourselves in a quiet place, and spending time with the people that we love. ## VISUALIZATION & HEALING FROM BETRAYAL TRAUMA **Anne:** I’ve actually been doing visualization with my son every night about his emotions and his anger, and where he’s going to put it. One of the things we imagined was that he put all his feelings about how he doesn’t want to do his schoolwork. Like, I don’t want to do my work. I hate doing schoolwork, you know, that sort of thing in a box. And then if he was holding that box, could he pick up his pencil? to do his schoolwork. And he was like, no, I can’t. So I said, well, where do you want to put the box? And he’s like, Oh, I’m just going to put it over here. And then he was like, Oh, mom, I can do my assignment now. He has improved significantly in his schoolwork. So using a [betrayal meditation](https://www.btr.org/free-betrayal-trauma-meditation/ "betrayal meditation") or visualization as a tool is an option for healing from betrayal trauma because I have used visualization before to be able to connect with my children. Since that time, I haven’t solved all my problems. But in relation to my abusive ex husband, who abused me post divorce for eight years. I’m completely delivered from him, and so are my children. And I did this through the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop Strategies](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). I spent so much time and effort putting everything I learned over the years into that workshop, Applying those strategies and having those strategies deliver us was for sure the miracle I had been praying for. And I hope you find all the strategies to be the miracle you’ve been praying for too. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast **Tags:** husband lying --- ### [Why Is My Husband Yelling? What He Doesn’t Want Exposed](https://www.btr.org/why-is-my-husband-yelling-at-me/) **Published:** June 24, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** It's not your fault. Here's the real reason your husband yells at you. **Content:** If you’re wondering, “Why is my husband yelling at me?” the answer might surprise you. Here are 7 key questions to help uncover the real reasons behind his constant anger. ## 1. MAYBE HE’S YELLING BECAUSE HE HAS A SECRET? When your husband has something he wants to do that he doesn’t want you to know about. He will be very irritated when you ask normal everyday questions. Or try to interact with him like any normal person would. Hiding things from you is not only lying and deceit, it’s actually a form of emotional and psychological abuse. To know if he’s using any of the 19 types of emotional abuse to hide his secret, take our [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ## 2. IS YOUR HUSBAND’S YELLING ABOUT OVERPOWERING YOU? The purpose of yelling in the context of marriage is to overpower the other person. If he’s yelling at you, his primary motivation is to control you or the situation. Unfortunately for you, overpowering someone isn’t about relationship – it’s about control. If your husband frequently attempts to overpower you by yelling. He’s more interested in keeping his secrets hidden or exploiting you than solving problems. ## 3. DOES HIS YELLING SOLVE PROBLEMS? As previously mentioned, yelling is never about solving problems. Healthy people who are solution oriented ask questions to clarify or understand, not to overpower. ![What to Do if My Husband Yells at Me](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-To-Do-If-My-Husband-Yells-at-Me.webp "What to Do if My Husband Yells at Me")If he’s yelling questions at you, he’s doing it to prove you wrong, silence you, or invalidate you, not solve a problem. It’s important to understand this type of [abuse considering what the long term effects of emotional abuse in marriage are](/what-are-the-long-term-effects-of-emotional-abuse-in-marriage/) dynamic, so you can use strategies to protect yourself. To learn more, enroll in [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop](/clarity/). ## 4. WHEN HE YELLS AT YOU, DOES IT HURT? Your husband may claim that yelling is just part of normal communication. Or he may even insist that he isn’t yelling when he is. But if he’s yelling, he’s using his voice to intimidate, control, and degrade you. If it hurts, it’s actually emotional harm. To learn more about why this is emotionally abusive, listen to [The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast](/podcast/). ![How to Stop My Husband from Yelling](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/how-to-stop-my-husband-from-yelling.webp "How to Stop My Husband from Yelling")## 5. IS HE YELLING AT YOU IN FRONT OF CHILDREN? When he yells at you to create an excuse to stomp off and do the secret thing he had planned, it creates an environment of fear and instability for children. They’ll feel like they have to walk on eggshells. Additionally, witnessing their mother be emotionally abused in this way can have long-lasting effects on children’s mental health and well-being. ## 6. DOES YOUR HUSBAND SAY HIS YELLING IS YOUR FAULT? If he tells you he wouldn’t yell if only you (fill in the blank), that’s nonsense. He has a million choices about how he can respond, and yelling is only one of those choices. Did you know he could ask a question and listen to the answer? He could sit down and listen to what you have to say. He could stop being selfish. His yelling has literally nothing to do with you. If he blames you for it, that’s emotional and psychological abuse. ## 7. DOES HE SOUND LIKE HE CARES, BUT IT’S REALLY A THREAT? If your husband yells at you and then says, “I don’t want to do something I’m going to regret, so I’m going to go cool off,” you might not realize it, but this can actually be a veiled threat. ![How to Stop My Husband from Yelling at Me](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/how-to-top-my-husband-from-yelling-at-me.webp "How to Stop My Husband from Yelling at Me")What he’s really communicating is that he’s capable of harming you, whether physically or emotionally. By framing it this way, he shifts the responsibility onto you to avoid triggering his harmful behavior, which is a form of manipulation. If he stonewalls you by stomping off, that’s a threat to your dignity. That communicates clearly, “You’re not worth resolving problems with.” Anytime a husband yells at his wife and stomps off, it’s an abusive threat meant to silence and overpower her, whether she recognizes it or not. ## HOW TO STOP MY HUSBAND FROM YELLING AT ME While there’s no way to stop your husband from yelling or change his character to be an emotionally safe person. There is a way to protect yourself. Our [online betrayal trauma support group](/group/) meet daily to provide healthy, compassionate support for women in this situation. ![Why is My Husband Yelling at Me](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Why-Is-My-Husband-Yelling-at-Me.webp "Why is My Husband Yelling at Me")## TRANSCRIPT: WHY IS MY HUSBAND YELLING AT ME? **Anne:** We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re going to call her Cat. Before Cat shares her story. Here are seven key questions to ask yourself to determine: Why is my husband yelling at me? And if his yelling indicates something deeper. And you’ll hear these themes throughout Cat’s story. **Cat:** Thanks, Anne. I’m happy to be here. **Anne:** I’m so sorry about what you’ve been through. Let’s start at the beginning. **Cat:** I met him in college and of course, he never yelled in the beginning. Looking back, I can see so many red flags—but at the time, I didn’t even have a framework to recognize them. One of the best things that the Betrayal Trauma Recovery community and the coaches had me do was write a timeline of our entire relationship. Throughout the process of separation, divorce, and healing, whenever I would feel wobbly, I would just go back and look at that timeline, and it immediately grounded me. So, I still look at it from time to time, just to remember it was always there. ## RECOGNIZING COVERT NARCISSISTIC ABUSE **Cat:** It wasn’t me. The signs were always there. It took me that long to claw my way out. I think that’s probably the best thing any woman who finds herself in this situation can do. So many women are aware of the more overt and socially recognized forms of abuse. That’s what we’re on the lookout for. My parents raised me in the South. I was aware, staying away from the “bad guys.” The guys who were more, maybe aggressive alpha males who were more overt in their expressions of aggression. Like men who are always yelling and stomping around. Oh, I would never end up in a relationship with someone like that. And I think most women have a hard time recognizing that highly intelligent, manipulative, covert, narcissistic type of abuse. I always wondered, [what does the bible say about narcissistic abuse](/what-does-the-bible-say-about-narcissistic-abuse/). That is consistently playing the long game. He is very performative in his social kind of markers, very progressive, very liberal. He would seem very pro-women, sensitive, you know, all those things. But behind closed doors or with what probably feels like enabling company to him, there are many behaviors that I now recognize as problematic. One of the first was such an obvious red flag to me. Our junior year, we’d been dating for a while. But I had not seen any of the red flag behavior. One of his dearest friends from childhood who also went to our college was his roommate. He pulled me aside and said, have you seen his dark side? And I didn’t know what he was talking about. I couldn’t even imagine what he was describing. ## WHEN YOUR HUSBAND IS YELLING, MANIPULATIVE & MOODY **Cat:** He would act moody and grouchy for a prolonged time. His friend group had become accustomed to and sort of made space for. I now understand that friend group is what would be called flying monkeys and enablers. At the time, I didn’t know that. And he was sort of the alpha of that friend group. Even though he was not your typical alpha male. And it wasn’t long after that that I did see a sort of dark side come out. I couldn’t figure out what had happened. I still don’t know why he directed the moodiness and grouchiness at me. So I said, you know, “What’s going on? What’s wrong? What do you need? How can I help you?” Doing all the things, and nothing I did made a difference. And then just like within 24 hours, I guess it passed, but there was no reason given. Eventually, the narrative became this is something the men in my family do. We all struggle with anxiety and depression. He implied it was part of their genetic makeup. **Anne:** I have developed a theory, and when my book comes out, it clearly outlines this. When they start to escalate to yelling and fighting like that for seemingly no reason, it’s because they have something else they want to do. But they can’t figure out how to get away from us. **Cat:** Mm hmm. ## INSTIGATING A FIGHT & STOMPING OFF **Anne:** So he starts yelling to instigate a fight. They can stomp off and do the thing they want to do, like solicit a prostitute, but they can’t say to you, Hey, you know what, I’ve got a prostitute to solicit. **Cat:** Right. **Anne:** And so I’m going to go, some of them will be like, I’ve got homework to do. And go and solicit the prostitute. So the question I have is, did he escalate to the point where he kind of stomped off? **Cat:** Yes, that was always what would happen. He even told me he managed outbursts like that. **Anne:** Was stomping off? **Cat:** Yeah, stomping off, going on a walk, going out. And that became the protocol, his way of dealing with this over the decades. I can’t even believe it, Anne, but now that you’re saying it that way. **Anne:** But he didn’t say we know how to leave the house and make it your fault so we can go solicit a prostitute. I’ve interviewed over 300 betrayal trauma victims in long form interviews like this one. And in the 70s, the 1970s in the 1900s. Maybe they went to like the corner secret store, but I’ve seen it as a pattern. And until you put the pieces together. It’s hard to know, because they would never ever admit it. That they just want you to think they got so mad at you because you’re so terrible. That’s the only way they could cool down, and they’ll maybe even say it in a way that makes them sound a little bit nice. ## PSYCHOPATHS & PITY **Anne:** Like I didn’t want to hurt you anymore. And so to explain why I yelled and stomped off to like, save you from my anger. When they invented a fight from nothing, to do the secret thing they wanted to do. That they had planned before they started the “argument.” **Cat:** Yeah, yes, women who find themselves in this situation. The fact that we have a conscience makes it so easy to dupe us. By people who don’t have a conscience, because we just assume the person we’re with also has a conscience. So it’s hard to conceive the depth of manipulation and malignancy. And really, up until D-Day, I could not have conceived this was what was happening. I truly believed his rationales or reasons. I know this is such a stereotype, but he had a lot of trauma in his childhood. His mother died in an accident when he was young. And a lot of the “moodiness, depression, and anxiety,” and I’m using air quotes there, because I no longer believe that’s what it was. But that’s what it was attributed to at the time. It was implicitly ascribed to that trauma, and I made space for that all the time. Even if it wasn’t directly talked about. That was the narrative I created in my mind for what was going on and why he deserved compassion, understanding and support. **Anne:** I had a therapist say to me once about my ex, he’s a psychopath, and I was like, what? She’d never met him, so she couldn’t diagnose him. ## BLAMING HIS YELLING & ANGER ON SOMETHING IN THE PAST **Anne:** She said, did he manipulate you to feel sorry for him to get away with yelling and bad behavior? And I said, wow, I didn’t think about that. She said one of the hallmarks of a psychopath is they want someone to pity them. **Cat:** Yeah. **Anne:** Because a healthy person does not want someone’s pity. They’re like, yeah, my mom passed away from a car accident when I was a kid. It was a real bummer, it’s sad, but like, I’m healthy now and here I am as an adult. **Cat:** Yeah. **Anne:** But they could use anything to elicit pity to do what they want to do. Let’s go back to that flying monkey friend. It’s interesting to me that you said your husband was the alpha of this group. Who I assume took his side later from the way you described it. What do you think his motivation was to ask if you had seen a dark side? Do you think he was trying to warn you? **Cat:** I don’t know if it was out of concern for me. I have to share the tone of this friend group. They’re all very sweet. They’re all very kind. Well, I know one of them has attacked me verbally, talking about me behind my back. I don’t know that any of the rest of them have. They have all, at least to me, said kind, compassionate things, but it’s that sitting on the fence. You know, I want to be nice to you. I want to be a good guy and say the right thing to you, but I’m also going to totally support your ex-husband. ## IT’S NOT OUR FAULT THAT WE BELIEVE THEM **Cat:** Although when my ex husband, I think, notified some of his cohort and requested privacy or something like that. One of those friends reached out to both of us and said, I’m so sorry to hear this. If either of you want to talk, I’m here. And, I did contact him, and I told him everything going on. We had a long conversation, and he believed everything I said because he had seen things. But he said to me, you know Cat, we all knew he was capable of this. We just hoped it wasn’t happening to you. That’s like verbatim what he said to me, and yet they’re all just there for him. So I thought the group was all kind, all sensitive, all good guys. And yet they are his enablers to the end. I’ve since cut ties with everyone. Like, all of them, even though some of them were my friends, separate from my ex-husband before we got together in college, even most of his family, I’ve cut ties with. I do have intermittent contact with his brother and brother’s wife from his family, who do not speak to him anymore. But the rest, I’ve cut everyone out. **Anne:** That’s so hard. We perceive it as a warning, but part of me wonders if they’re testing the waters. **Cat:** Mm hmm. **Anne:** Because many of them drop the mask a little bit before the marriage, and then they put it back on. And I often wonder if it’s a little bit of a test, and again, this is not our fault that we believe them. Which is the most awful, unconscionable thing to think. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## ABUSE CYCLES & REALIZATIONS **Anne:** A normal person would be like, shoot, she believed me. I better tell her the truth so that she knows what she’s getting into. **Cat:** Yeah. **Anne:** uh, it’s awful. **Cat:** Yeah, after that first, I didn’t know what it was at the time, but now I understand that was abuse early on. Nine months into dating, it didn’t happen again for a long time. I couldn’t figure out why those cycles of yelling and anger got closer and closer together, and I wondered [what to do when you’re mad at your husband](/what-to-do-when-you-are-mad-at-your-husband/), and it took 15 or more years. I mean, I was in my 30s with three children before I realized, like, this is just my life. It’s just one big, and I didn’t have the word abuse cycle then. But I understood that this is all the time now, it’s not intermittent episodes anymore. It is just a constant, daily grind. We all know the frog in the pot of boiling water analogy. I look back now and understand the behaviors. Especially the outward behaviors that were happening within our various friend groups over the decades. They meant to create his false image to hide his secret behaviors, secret basement. And covert abuse while simultaneously invalidating me. So that if I ever went to someone, I wouldn’t be believed. He did actually write that to me. He admitted he did that on purpose. So I know that the gaslighting, which was happening outwardly with our friends. Him putting on the mask of a good guy, all the way to him encouraging me to go to the Women’s March in DC. Like almost to the point of like, if I didn’t go, it would be disappointing him. Because that’s part of his mask. ## MY HUSBAND YELLS & ABUSES BECAUSE IT WORKS **Cat:** The fact that he would be married to a feminist means there’s no way he could do what he’s doing. You know, it’s like a decorator crab. They’re just putting all these things on their shell, and I was like his crown jewel. But I was just social capital, that’s it. And I know now that’s what our family was. So that long game, it’s hard to wrap your mind around how deep and calculated it is. I still struggle with wondering, is it all conscious or “he can’t help it.” And I’m saying that with air quotes like, he can’t help it. Not like, oh, poor him. I don’t feel that way at all. But that it’s such a part of who he is. And it’s kind of gotten to the point where it doesn’t matter to me. I just know that I want that level of manipulation nowhere around me. And, I know it works on many people, and I can’t worry about that. **Anne:** And the answer might be that they yell and abuse because it works. **Cat:** Yeah. **Anne:** It allows them to exploit people. It allows them to work the least amount. **Cat:** Yep. **Anne:** In terms of emotional work, psychological work, and even physical labor. It allows them to have all the privileges of a family without having the responsibilities. **Cat:** Yeah. **Anne:** A survey done in prison that the counselor asked the abusers in the prison, why would you abuse? They just had lists and lists of reasons, all the entitlements they get. And then he said, why wouldn’t you? And they said things like, because I might get thrown in jail. ## FALSE DISCLOSURES & THERAPY MANIPULATION **Anne:** Because people might not like me, and guess what wasn’t on their list, because I care about her, was not on the list. So anytime someone lacks that basic human care for their own partner, and everyone is just fodder for exploitation, They’re just going to do what works and controlling people with anger and yelling works .They’re very practical, not to their credit, but their values and moral system are only based on what works to get them what they want, not what is the right thing to do. **Cat:** Yeah, and I think that goes along with what I was talking about. People with a conscience have a hard time comprehending the behaviors of people without a conscience. It causes us to give them the benefit of the doubt all the time. And then the people without a conscience use that against us or use that for their own betterment. To your point, about the therapist saying your ex husband was a psychopath. We did couple’s therapy for probably eight years, almost weekly, because of a fake disclosure that happened. **Anne:** He lied about something he did? **Cat:** I know crazy, right? He lied about something. Yeah, so this is, it’s almost like hard to believe I didn’t see it. So we had many, many years of abuse cycles, increasing in regularity. I had begged him to go to therapy, but there was so much I didn’t know about getting a [therapist for my abusive husband](/your-abusive-husbands-therapist/ "therapist for my abusive husband"). for a long time. He wouldn’t do it. He also had pretty regular impotence, which I had personally seen professionals about. Because I didn’t want a loveless marriage. ## DISCOVERING THE TRUTH **Cat:** And I eventually encouraged him to seek help about it. I remember asking him if men attracted him. And I didn’t know about exploitative content use at that time. I had no concept that this material induced impotency. And no professional I went to, you know, doctors, therapists, acupuncture, whatever. No one said, could it be this? Nobody said that to me. So I went to him and said, can you go get checked out? Let’s figure out what’s going on, and he came back. He said everything’s fine, they just said it’s anxiety, but the abuse cycles associated with his impotence were the worst. I had three kids, eventually I just kept them away as much as possible. While he was like in a dark room, on the computer and grouchy. So his dad, came to visit one time. He saw what was happening, and came to me and said he didn’t like what he was seeing. And I said, can you tell him to go to therapy? Because he won’t listen to me. So he went to therapy after his dad told him to. He got on some anti-anxiety medication, and things nominally improved. The yelling and abuse cycles were still there, but they were not as extreme. And then he came to me and said, I’ve been talking to my therapist and I need to confess something to you, because I’m worried about how I might act on this impulse I’m having. He said, I just wanted you to know that I was watching this horrible stuff. I have to admit, I didn’t care about it at that point. And I just thought it was something most guys did. I didn’t know all the harms associated with it. ## CONCOCTING A LIE TO PREEMPT DISCOVERY **Cat:** I didn’t like it, but it wasn’t an area of concern for me. So he said I watched it, and all these pop up windows came up, and I clicked on a website. I started talking to a bot, and it was taking me further into chat rooms. And these are his words. “I was getting worried about how far I was going,” he said. “I ended up on a website called Ashley Madison”, and he said, “All I was doing was talking to people.” But again, I had no idea, I mean, I look back now and I’m just like, I’m a different person, but I said, Ashley Madison. And then I realized what Ashley Madison was. I did not think he was cheating, I believed what he said about just talking to people. **Anne:** For women who may not be aware of the Ashley Madison scandal, can you give a brief overview of that? **Cat:** It’s a website for married people to sign up to cheat on their spouses. **Anne:** Right, they hacked it and released all the names? **Cat:** Well, I didn’t know that, but yes, that’s why he did it. Yes, he was preempting. **Anne:** Exactly, he was getting ahead of it just in case you discovered it. **Cat:** Yes, exactly. It was a fake disclosure. **Anne:** That time, you think, of course he’s telling the truth. Because why would he tell me if he didn’t tell the truth? There’s no way you’d think he concocted a lie preemptively, so that he could lie to you if you discovered the truth. **Cat:** Exactly. ## GOING NO CONTACT **Anne:** When you said the abuse cycle with the impotence was the worst. That may or may not confirm my theory. That the reason why he’s yelling and angry is because you’re obstructing them from using. Or hooking up with married women on Ashley Madison. Because anytime you try to talk to them, if they’re like on their way to use it, or if they’re on their way to do the thing they want to do. They’ll be extremely irritated. And mad at you, so that they have an “excuse” to go do something else. And that also might explain why he was so impotent at that time. Because if you’re using every day or multiple times a day, you’re definitely going to be impotent with your wife. **Cat:** Yeah, and he told me at the end of the marriage that there were times where he was using it seven hours a day. He would leave his tech job and meet up with like Craigslist hookups. Which who knows, and my oldest son said to me, you would be an idiot to believe a word that comes out of his mouth at this point. And that was just a few months after he admitted the “real” and I’m saying real in air quotes. Because I’m sure that’s the tip of the iceberg. Whatever he admitted. I mean, we had 26 years of him doing stuff. I don’t know about, whatever he admitted. There’s way worse out there, but that’s all I needed. And that’s when I went no contact. ## COUPLES THERAPY & NARCISSISM **Cat:** But after the first fake disclosure regarding Ashley Madison, he had a whole plan in place. He had already contacted a couples therapist. He said, let’s start doing couples therapy. I want to use this to rebuild our marriage and all this stuff. And I never enthusiastically agreed, but I definitely acquiesced. And so we spent eight years in couples therapy, I realize now what garbage that was. He used couples therapy to manipulate me. When more truth came out, I scheduled an appointment with that therapist and recounted several times. I had tried to point to what happened. And was silenced in couples therapy. That couples therapist, to his credit, said he’s definitely a covert narcissist. And I think he’s a sociopath. Probably like your therapist saying, your ex-husband was a psychopath. This therapist saw my ex-husband weekly for eight years. So that was eye opening for me. **Anne:** That’s the first time the therapist recognized he lied for eight years. The fact that someone can go to therapy every week for eight years and lie the entire time. My ex did it through addiction recovery therapy. He’d go to 12-step meetings and lied to everyone. He enjoyed every minute of it. Mine loved therapy. When I mentioned, hey, let’s go to therapy. He was like, yes. Once they discover that therapy will work for them, they don’t mind it at all. A lot of women think, if I could just get him in therapy, and it sounds like you thought that. **Cat:** I did! **Anne:** Then you did. And it gets worse. ## WEAPONIZING THERAPY **Anne:** They learn how to weaponize the therapy against us. So that they seem better and sound good. Yours was already good at that, so it makes them even more scary. So yeah, if you’re listening, thinking if he would only go to therapy. **Cat:** It’s dangerous. Especially couples therapy, when you’re considering [intensive couples therapy](/intensive-couples-therapy-near-me/ "ntensive couples therapy") because couples therapists assume an equality of good intention. That both people are there because they’re trying to improve the relationship. That’s part of how they train therapists. But in reality with emotional abuse, where it’s hidden, even from the victim. It’s really dangerous, and therapy becomes a tool for further manipulation and control. And that’s definitely what happened. The way I was able to gain awareness of the reality that what I was living with was abuse. Started when I discovered a large bag of marijuana in his backpack. While I helped my middle son look for something he had lost that my husband was mad about. And I was trying to help him avoid his dad’s ire by helping him look for this thing. I opened up my husband’s backpack, and there was a big bag of marijuana in there. And he had been saying in therapy, he wasn’t doing anything. He wasn’t looking at exploitative material. He wasn’t doing drugs, he wasn’t doing all the stuff. And I just lost it. Like I could not believe the level of deception I was still dealing with, and [my husbands lying](/my-husband-is-lying-to-me/ "my husbands lying") all the time. And so we had a big heated argument that night he did a lot of yelling. He’d obviously thought about, if he got caught, what he would do. ## PTSD & REALIZATIONS **Cat:** And he immediately redirected the conversation to the fact that he has an addiction problem with drugs and alcohol. This was news to me. I had no idea. I don’t think he actually, I mean, I think it’s more that he has a problem with entitlement. And if he wants to do something, he’s going to do it. Whether he said he won’t, or whether it’s harmful to others. So, he said, I’m going to start going to AA, I’m going to go, do all these 12-step things. My oldest son had done a wilderness therapy program, and we were still working with his therapist from that program. I also now understand that was a whole redirection away from my husband’s issues to scapegoat my child. But anyway, I called that therapist to tell him what was going on. And he said to me Cat, I think I’ve seen signs in you of PTSD in our family sessions. I think something’s going on and I recommend you look at, I think he gave me the name of a podcast, like the Betrayed and the something. And my ex husband started doing a men’s program and determined he had a problem lying. That was his problem. I was diagnosed with PTSD, or CPTSD. **Anne:** I’m going to jump in and say, that there’s the P in CPTSD, the post. **Cat:** Right. **Anne:** If he’s still yelling, lying, and raging around. It’s not post, it’s still happening. **Cat:** Right. **Anne:** If they’re going to diagnose us, which I have to tell you, I disagree with. I think they should look at us and say, you’re acting completely normal. You’re not diagnosed with anything. And it’s not post anything. You’re still experiencing abuse. ## EMPTY PRONOUNCEMENTS THAT HE WOULD STOP YELLING & LYING **Cat:** Yes. He did that program. And we were still in constant contact. I look back now and all our text exchanges, and I can’t believe how much energy I put into explaining human decency to him for so long. He obviously knew, I mean, after that program, a few months later, he started another men’s program. And, then I found Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Then he finished the program, all the while making pronouncements to me, “Oh, I’m going to do this.” And “Here’s all of this.” Then he said he wanted a divorce. And the biggest tell to me was that I wasn’t even sad. I was sad about our family, and I was scared. There was a lot of fear, but I’ve never once missed him. **Anne:** Yeah, that is a good sign, or not. **Cat:** Yeah. **Anne:** It’s not a good sign, but that’s a sign. **Cat:** It’s very clear, yeah. **Anne:** Clarifying, I’m so glad you discovered that. I used to recommend men’s programs, and I don’t anymore because of this. **Cat:** Totally, through this program, my ex-husband found a way to manipulate through therapy language. He went to those AA meetings and 12-step program meetings. And would come home and disparage all the people in those meetings and say like, Oh, I’m not as bad as those guys. You know, comparing himself to how much better he was than all these other people at these AA meetings, but yet he would still use them to build up his ego and stuff. **Anne:** This is why it does not help them. ## THEY DON’T BELIEVE HIS YELLING & LYING IS ABUSE: FOOLING TRAINED THERAPISTS & COURTS **Cat:** No, I don’t think anything would. I mean, even now he’s donning a new costume of healed or healing. Good dad, I know he dog whistles to all his enablers that this is my fault. Because his needs weren’t being met, he had to do what he did. And I even heard him say this through a year through the divorce and family court mediation. I know he even told the assigned family mediator he did what he did, so he didn’t hurt me. And she ate it up, and she’s a highly trained therapist, and she repeated his words to me. The institutions around therapy and the way therapists are trained. From family court, to the criminal court system, to social systems in general, are all designed to support the main characters, which are these privileged men. **Anne:** When they’ve learned the right things to say. And as long as they play the game right, they maintain their privilege and their power. **Cat:** Yeah, that’s right. **Anne:** It’s extremely discouraging. **Cat:** It is. I’ve just immersed myself in learning so much about it. I’m interested in Dr. Peter Salerno, and his books. Which say we have to stop trying to help these men. **Anne:** Yeah, this is exactly why I don’t recommend men’s programs anymore. ## LIVING FREE WORKSHOP STRATEGIES **Anne:** Due to hearing this story over and over from women over the years. And my own struggle to be free from this type of manipulation. I discovered and created the strategies in my [betrayal trauma workshop](/clarity/). In The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop, 100 percent of the focus is on helping you. Does that mean I think he can’t change? I don’t think that’s my call to make, the only person I’m concerned about is you. The only help you need is to see his true character. You can observe from a safe distance to see if he will continue to lie and exploit. Or will he make different choices? The strategies give you enough space to see who he really is and what he’s going to do. Because with a therapy program, a men’s program, or a couple’s program, you don’t get the space you need to see him for who he really is. It just becomes an extension of his manipulation of you. You still have no way to protect yourself from his yelling and abusive behaviors. But the strategies in the [what do after infidelity workshop](/clarity/) enable you to create space for yourself to see his true character, because truth is the only way out of this. **Cat:** Right, that’s exactly right. That’s so good. **Anne:** Our local domestic violence coalition, instead of putting more money into helping victims. They decided to do a men’s program. And I’m like, don’t do it. Because they know what they’re doing. ## HIDING PATRIARCHY IN FEMINIST LANGUAGE **Anne:** I don’t know if you’re a fan of the Barbie movie. **Cat:** Yeah, I loved it. **Anne:** Ryan Gosling goes into that office building, and he’s in the lobby. I’m gonna do this scene for everyone. Ken says, I’ll take a high level, high paying job with influence, please. And the corporate man says, okay, then you’ll need at least an MBA, and a lot of our people have PhDs. Ken says, Isn’t being a man enough? And the corporate man says, actually, right now it’s the opposite. Ken says, You guys are clearly not doing patriarchy very well. And here’s the kicker. The corporate man says, no, no, we’re doing it well. Yeah, we just hide it better now. And that’s what you’re talking about. They’re hiding it in feminist language, but they’re not actually feminists. They don’t actually see women as equals. They want to hold on to their exploitative privilege. The part I loved about that movie is they know that. **Cat:** They do. And you know, that’s why the covert abusers are probably the most successful now. Because there are so few avenues still socially acceptable to exercise dominance and control. **Anne:** Right, yeah, and they’re getting good at it. So in court they intend to, and they know that they can dysregulate us by abusing us. Their intent in yelling to strike fear, to dysregulate us. So they can claim we’re crazy, and we look disheveled and freaked out because we are. **Cat:** Yeah, I was even very put together and calm and poised in all our family court meetings, with the judge. They said point blank, we don’t talk about anything that’s come before in here. ## ADVOCATING FOR CHILDREN **Cat:** We only talk about how we’re moving forward, which is crazy to me. Knowing all the written admissions I had from him, I was not allowed to even present that. This is the twisted thing about family court. I was the only one showing up and advocating for the kids. He showed up and advocated for what he wanted from custody. And they said if I didn’t stop, I would be labeled a parental alienator. So I just said, okay, we’re just 50/50, we’re not 50/50. I have more custody, but yeah, it’s broken. I just want to say how grateful I am to Betrayal Trauma Recovery for really accelerating my healing. And giving me compassionate but radical acceptance. So that I could start to get myself to safety and my kids to safety. **Anne:** Cat, thank you so much for sharing your story. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast **Tags:** gaslighting, How Do I Set Boundaries --- ### [7 Things to Know When You're Mad at Your Husband](https://www.btr.org/what-to-do-when-you-are-mad-at-your-husband/) **Published:** July 1, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Anger helps victims of betrayal identify bad behavior and set boundaries. **Content:** So many women struggle with the question: “What to do when you are mad at your husband?”. If you’re angry because your husband has harmed you, your anger makes sense. Did you know that legitimate anger *is not bad,* and in fact, it’s helpful? Anger is a natural response to harmful treatment, and it helps you know that something is wrong. It’s like a sacred internal warning system, alerting you to danger and calling you to action. ## HERE ARE 7 REASONS WHY ANGER IS NOT BAD: ANGER… 1. Alerts you to unfair treatment. 2. Motivates us to action. 3. Clarifies reality. 4. Restores your sense of self. 5. Builds resistance. 6. Interrupts manipulation. 7. Strengthens resilience. If you’re feeling angry about your husband’s destructive behavior, we get it. [Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY to talk to other women who have been in your situation and can support you.](https://www.btr.org/group/) ## LET YOUR LEGITIMATE ANGER HELP YOU IDENTIFY THE REAL ISSUE When women take a moment to evaluate why they feel angry, they can determine the source. Often they’re experiencing anger in reaction to their husband’s anger and emotional abuse. They feel scared, frustrated, tired, hurt, and overwhelmed. At BTR.ORG we encourage victims of emotional abuse to think differently about their anger. To discover if your husband’s anger is actually emotional abuse, take this [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ![What to Do when You Are Mad at Your Husband](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/why-your-anger-is-helpful.webp "Why Your Anger is Helpful")## TRANSCRIPTION: WHAT TO DO WHEN YOU ARE MAD AT YOUR HUSBAND Anne: It’s just me today. Has anyone else ever noticed that society has double standards for men and women’s anger? Society often celebrates and justifies men’s anger, while it views women’s anger as irrational and emotional. ## THE DOUBLE STANDARD OF ANGER Anne: Like if he says, “My wife cheated on me, and it makes me so angry.” Everyone would be like, *yeah. I would be angry too*. But if a husband cheats on his wife and she gets angry, somehow people blame her anger for his cheating. Anger for him is always justified as a response to apparent harm. For women, anger is considered a condition – like, “She’s angry” as if it’s a character trait rather than an emotion. If your husband’s behavior is destructive, like he’s always angry, he’s lying to you, or he’s emotionally abusive, it’s not wrong to be angry. Here are seven reasons why your anger is not bad. ## 1. ANGER ALERTS YOU TO UNFAIR TREATMENT Anne: Number one, anger alerts you to unfair treatment. Anger is your mind and body’s way of signaling to you that something is wrong. So when you feel a surge of anger, take a minute to determine what the anger is about. Instead of like pushing it away and thinking I shouldn’t be angry, accept the lesson it’s offering you. It might help you determine your level of emotional safety, and then you can start to [heal from emotional abuse. ](https://www.btr.org/heal-from-emotional-abuse/ "heal from emotional abuse. ") ## 2. ANGER MOTIVATES ACTION Anne: Number two, anger motivates action. I believe God gave us anger to help us take action and protect ourselves.This can be confusing, because abusive men are often angry due to their exploitative privilege. Meaning that they get angry when people resist their exploitative behaviors. And that is NOT a good reason to be angry. That’s actually an exploitative reason, and their anger is emotional abuse, because they’re using their anger to manipulate you. They’re using their anger to scare you or threaten you, so they can continue to exploit you. However, if protection and safety are your top priorities, your anger is NOT BAD. It can actually help you get to safety. ## 3. ANGER CLARIFIES REALITY Anne: Number three, anger clarifies reality. One of the hardest parts about emotional abuse is that it muddles your sense of reality. The gaslighting and manipulation can make you doubt your own thoughts and feelings. Anger cuts through that confusion. It’s an inner voice that’s saying *this is not okay*. ## 4. ANGER RESTORES YOUR SENSE OF SELF Anne: Number four, anger restores your sense of self. Emotional abuse often chips away your sense of identity, leaving you feeling small, powerless or invisible. But anger can strengthen your connection to your authentic self by reminding you of your worth and helping you get in touch with your own emotions. ## 5. ANGER BUILDS RESILIENCE Anne: Number five, anger builds resilience. Women who acknowledge and channel their anger constructively often use it to fuel their personal growth. For example, I felt intense anger when I started podcasting and created the Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcast. My ex-husband’s oppression for eight years after our divorce angered me, motivating me to dedicate all my effort to this podcast and our services at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, especially the Living Free workshop.. The situation infuriated me, and I became determined to find a way to free myself from him, which I’ll discuss a little later. ## 6. ANGER IS NOT BAD – IT INTERRUPTS MANIPULATION Anne: Number six, anger interrupts manipulation. Emotional abusers rely on manipulation to maintain control in relationships. And they use tactics like belittling or guilt tripping, or even grooming to manipulate you. When you internalize that your righteous anger is not bad, it becomes harder for him to manipulate you. ## 7. ANGER IS NOT BAD – IT SPARKS HOPE FOR CHANGE Anne: And number seven, anger sparks hope for change. You might think this is ironic. It may sound counterintuitive, but anger can lead to hope. Anger signals that you can recognize the injustice happening to you, and that you’re ready to take action to protect yourself. Countless women who have shared their stories on the [BTR podcast](https://www.btr.org/podcast/ "The #1 Podcast About Betrayal Trauma: Listen Now!"), describe anger as the emotion that finally allowed them to see a future beyond abuse. A future filled with safety and dignity. If your husband is angry, but he says that you can’t be angry about his anger. Know that anger as a response to abuse is a sign of strength, not weakness. People often misunderstand anger, especially in women who are conditioned to suppress it or feel ashamed. Know your anger is not bad. When you face emotional abuse, your anger can empower you to see the truth and take action. ## PERSONAL JOURNEY WITH ANGER Anne: Years ago, I felt really angry, and people kept saying I had a problem with my anger. I didn’t believe it was a problem because I saw it as righteous anger, completely justified. Like, who wouldn’t be angry? My husband lied to me, cheated on me, and exploited me for his own gain. He didn’t care about me at all and now I have to live with the consequences of that. Like. Of course, I’m angry. Like, why are *you* not angry about it? What’s wrong with *you*, that you’re *not* angry about the situation. ## STUDYING SCRIPTURE SHOWED ME ANGER IS NOT BAD Anne: I am Christian. So I turned to studying the scriptures to try to like process my anger, to figure out what God thought about my anger. And interestingly, through that study, I actually came up with the Living Free strategies that enabled me to deliver myself and my kids. ## LIVING FREE STRATEGIES TO MAKE ANGER WORK FOR YOU Anne: The recording I’ll play is from when I studied and tried to figure out what God wanted me to do to be delivered. You can hear the hope in my voice. A year or two after this recording, I discovered the Living Free Strategies and used them to completely free myself and my children from our abusive situation. For years, we’ve lived free and have had peace. To learn how I eventually delivered myself, [click here to learn more about The Living Free Workshop strategies.](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) If reading scriptures is triggering and you want to skip the rest of this episode, go ahead. Or you may want to listen to hear when I’m trying to figure out if my anger is okay with God, and let it guide me. I hoped for deliverance, even when I had no evidence of it. So here is this recording from years ago. Hopefully, it will be helpful to you. ## WHAT TO DO WHEN YOU ARE MAD AT YOUR HUSBAND: RIGHTEOUS ANGER IN SCRIPTURES Anne: Once I realized that if I didn’t feel angry, something would be wrong with me, things started to change. If I didn’t feel angry, I would be weird. Then, I could actually embrace it. Many righteous people throughout all of time have felt righteous anger and a desire for justice. Righteous anger is not bad. In my situation, my [ex is still using the kids to hurt me](https://www.btr.org/ex-uses-the-kids-to-hurt-you/ "ex is still using the kids to hurt me"). So I don’t know when I will be delivered from having to interact with him. I pray it will happen soon. There’s no way that I, by myself, can make all things right for me and my kids. For me, as a Christian, relying on My Savior brings me peace and hope. And I know that all I need to do is set that boundary and maintain it. And when I continue to maintain it, I’m standing for truth and righteousness, and hopefully I will be delivered. The scriptures, talk about righteous people who are healthy going through great trials. And the Lord promises them peace. ## MOSES’ EXAMPLE OF RIGHTEOUS ANGER Anne: People like Moses, Elijah, David, and even Jesus demonstrated that righteous anger is not bad. In Mark 3:5, for example, it’s talking about the Savior. And it said, “and when he had looked roundabout on them with anger being grieved for the hardness of their hearts.” Repeatedly. The scriptures talk about God being angry about wickedness. “His anger was not turned away, but his hand was stretched out still.” Moses uses his righteous anger to deliver the Israelites from the bondage of Pharaoh, and helps them walk through the Red Sea on dry ground to safety. And then they end up wandering in the wilderness for 40 years, right? That’s how I felt—God freed me from bondage, led me through on dry ground, and now I’m wandering in the wilderness, unsure of what will happen and still facing serious trials. This pattern has existed since the beginning of time. And there are a bunch of war chapters in the scriptures. I’m going to read some today that have helped me understand righteous anger and what that looks like. The point of this is not to proselytize by any means. I respect all your views. However, this is how God showed me that my righteous anger is not bad, and how to allow it to guide me toward deliverance. ## SCRIPTURAL EXAMPLES OF RIGHTEOUS ANGER Anne: Moroni who is the captain of an army is one of the most righteous men in the scriptures. It says, “And verily, verily, I say unto you, if all men had been, and were, and ever would be, like Moroni, behold, the very powers of hell would have been shaken forever, yea, the devil would never have power over the hearts of the children of men. Moroni is described as an extremely faithful, extremely righteous man.” “He was a man of love and perfect understanding,” it says. “A man who did not delight in bloodshed, a man whose soul did joy in the liberty and the freedom of his brethren from the bondage of slavery. Yea, a man whose heart did swell with thanksgiving to his God for the many privileges and blessings which he bestowed upon his people, a man who did labor exceedingly for the welfare and safety of his people.” So it says specifically in Alma 48 verse 12, “He labored for the safety of his people.” And then in 13, “Yea, he was a man who was firm in the faith of Christ, and taught to defend themselves against their enemies.” “Yea, they were also taught never to give an offense. Yea, never to raise the sword, against an enemy, except it were to preserve their lives. Nevertheless, they could not suffer to lay down their lives that their wives and their children should be massacred by the barbarous cruelty of those that were once their brethren and had left them.” ## ANGER IS NOT BAD – IT HELPS YOU CREATE BOUNDARIES Anne: Moroni is saying if you have harmed your children or your family, you cannot be here anymore. So, they create boundaries for safety. Alma chapter 50 verse 18 says, “and thus we see how merciful and just are the dealings of the Lord to the fulfilling of all his words unto the children of men.” And the Lord says to them in verse 20, “Blessed art thou and thy children and thou shall be blessed but remember in as much as they will not keep my commandments, they shall be cut off.” Now when we recognize that our spouse has not been healthy and is not making good overt or [covert](https://www.btr.org/covert-emotional-abuse/ "What Is Covert Emotional Abuse? – Nadira’s Story") choices, *we* get the consequences of that, and our homes are in chaos, and things start to fall apart. And we start suffering from the unrighteousness of someone else, which is extremely painful and difficult, especially if we’re doing the right thing. In this case, our anger is not bad. And it says in verse 21, “and we see that these promises have been verified for it has been their quarrelings and their contentions, yea, their murderings and their plunderings, their idolatry, their whoredoms and their abominations, which were among themselves, which brought upon them their wars and their destructions.” ## ANGER IS NOT BAD WHEN YOU’RE RESISTING ABUSE Anne: The battle between an abuser and his victim at home brings all types of contention and chaos. Those who were faithful in keeping the commandments of the Lord were delivered at all times. While the wicked, brethren, having been consigned to bondage, perish. You are feeling the effects of that, and it does not feel good. Your anger is not bad. It feels miserable, and that’s what Moroni felt, too. He felt like being in the situation where there were people who were not doing the right thing, who were not making healthy choices, it was miserable. In Alma 52, verse 21, it says “and it came to pass that Moroni, having no hopes of meeting them upon fair grounds, can see that it is impossible to talk with these people who are lying and deceiving. On fair grounds, therefore, he resolved upon a plan.” So, in several verses, it says that he is going to deal with them by stratagem, that he’s not going to actually speak with them, because that doesn’t get him anywhere. ## ANGER IS NOT BAD – IT LEADS YOU TO SAFETY Anne: If a person is too unhealthy to talk to, I need to figure out a way to get to safety, which doesn’t involve confronting them directly. In chapter 54, verse 7, Moroni says, “Yea, I would tell them these things if they were capable of hearkening unto them. Yea, I would tell them concerning the awful hell that awaits them. Accept they withdraw and return their armies to their own lands. But as they have once rejected these things, and fought against the people of the Lord, even so, may I expect they will do it again.” So Moroni’s saying, I just keep seeing this pattern over and over and over again. And then he says in verse 11, “Behold, it’s supposed with me that I talk to them concerning these things in vain. Or it supposeth me that thou art a child of hell.” So, Moroni is angry, in a good way. Then in verse 13, he says, “Behold, I am in my anger, and also my people. We have only sought to defend ourselves.” And that is a righteous thing to do. Recognizing that righteous anger is not wrong. Moroni is the most righteous person. And he is doing that. So we can follow his example with peace and with confidence. ## STANDING FIRM AGAINST HARM Anne: Alma 55, says, “For I will not grant unto him that he shall have any more power than what he hath got.” Chapter 57, verse 20, says, “They were firm and undaunted.” I’m going to add, *in their boundary*, although it doesn’t say that. In verse 26, miracles start happening. In says of Moroni’s people, the women and the children and the righteous people, “Now their preservation was astonishing to our whole army, yea, that they should be spared.” “And we did justly ascribe it to the miraculous power of God because of the exceeding faith in that which they had been taught to believe, that there was a just God and whosoever did not doubt that they should be preserved by his miraculous power.” In chapter 58, verse 6, It says, “And the wicked were sallying forth against us from time to time, resolving to destroy us. Nevertheless, we could not come to battle with them, because of their strongholds. And it came to pass that we did wait in these difficult circumstances for the space of many months, even until we were about to perish for want of food.” So they’ve created a boundary, they’re waiting it out, and it’s not going well for them. And then, The Lord’s promises are revealed. ## WHY GOD GAVE US ANGER Anne: Let me pause here as modern-day me to reflect on what I’ve learned through my experiences with the [stages of anger after betrayal.](https://www.btr.org/what-are-the-4-stages-of-betrayal-trauma/ "stages of anger after betrayal.") There were countless moments when I didn’t know how I’d pay my bills or keep my home. I couldn’t see a way forward, yet I kept moving, step by step, trusting that somehow, things would work out. And they did. Time and again, the Lord provided just what I needed. I’ve seen it with my own eyes. I’m not in that same day-to-day survival mode anymore, but I know that if I ever find myself there again, I can look back on those times and trust that things will be okay. That trust didn’t remove my struggles, but it gave me the strength to face them. In the scriptures, Moroni describes being under siege, feeling surrounded and overwhelmed. In Alma 58:9, it states, “…we grieved and felt fear; therefore, we poured out our souls in prayer to God to strengthen and deliver us.” That prayer isn’t just about deliverance—it’s about recognizing that righteous anger is not bad, it’s telling you something is not right and giving you a call for action. And in verse 11, it says, “The Lord our God visited us with assurances…he did speak peace to our souls, and grant unto us great faith, and did cause us that we should hope for our deliverance.” That hope gave them the courage to act, to keep fighting. In verse 40, they declared, “We have received many wounds; nevertheless, we stand fast and are strict to remember the Lord our God from day to day.” ## WHAT TO DO WHEN YOU ARE MAD AT YOUR HUSBAND: DELIVERANCE Anne: “Yea, And it came to pass that the Lord our God did visit us with assurances that he would deliver us.” “Yeah in so much that he did speak peace to our souls and a grant unto us great faith, and did cause us that we should hope for deliverance in him.” And in verse 12, “And we did take courage.” In 58 verse 37, “We trust God will deliver us, notwithstanding our weakness, yea, deliver us out of the hands of our enemies.” In verse 40, Talking about the righteous armies, and I’m talking about you, and I’m going to put a *we* instead of a *they* here, “But behold, we have received many wounds.” “Nevertheless, we stand fast and we are strict to remember the Lord our God from day to day. Yeah, for our faith is strong in the prophecies concerning that which is to come.” ## HOW ANGER CAN HELP YOU Anne: When I discovered the Living Free Strategies, I wanted to see if they would work for other women. I didn’t know if it was just me, or if it was a fluke. So I mentored other women using the strategies, and we found they worked for everyone. Even if you’re not Christian. [The Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) is presented in a more secular form. So the strategies apply to everyone. But I’m so thankful. For my savior. For delivering my children and I. My testimony of Jesus Christ is that he is the deliverer and he is our savior. And we can look to him. And he will show us the path forward. That doesn’t mean we don’t get help or learn new things, right? We can learn through Living Free strategies, get help from a coach, or graphics on [Instagram](https://instagram.com/btr.org_). In fact, so many women have told me they prayed to know what to do for help. And then they found the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast](https://open.spotify.com/show/54IhlM7JEJXK3geocKn2hG?si=829fe0165e114670 "Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcast"), it was an answer to their prayer. If you’re not Christian, I hope that the information you find at Betrayal Trauma Recovery helps you find the peace that you deserve in your life. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [When Husband Betrays Your Trust: The Hidden Fallout](https://www.btr.org/what-to-do-when-husband-betrays-your-trust/) **Published:** July 8, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Figuring out what to do when discovering your husband's lies is brutal. Samatha shares her journey to peace. **Content:** If you’ve just discovered your husband’s dark secrets, most women don’t know where to turn for help. If you’re wondering what to do when husband betrays your trust, here are 3 things to consider. #### 1. Check To See If His Betrayal Included Emotional Abuse Most men who betray their wives use emotional abuse tactics long before their lies are discovered. The first thing to do after your husband betrays your trust is to become educated about emotional and psychological abuse. To find out if your husband used any of the 19 different types of emotional abuse before or after you discovered his lies, take our [free emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). #### 2. Learn Strategies To Protect Yourself After you’ve discovered your husband’s betrayal, it’s imperative that you learn strategies to protect yourself. [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop](/clarity/) teaches women thought, boundary, and communication strategies to protect yourself emotionally and psychologically after you discover your husband’s lies. #### 3. Find The Right Support If your husband broke your trust, getting the right help is very important. Sadly, some people blame women who have been hurt. Therapists or clergy might say it’s her fault because she didn’t meet his needs or wasn’t easy to talk to. People often blame the victim, but this isn’t right. Victims of betrayal need support and kindness, not blame. Some women find out their husband lies about how he spends his time. He might spend hours watching pornography. Others find out he lies about money. Some even discover he lied about having an affair with a co-worker.This type of betrayal is hard because [lying is emotional abuse](/is-lying-emotional-abuse/). You’re not alone. If you need a safe place to talk about what happened, join our [support group for betrayal trauma](/group/). ## TRANSCRIPT: WHAT TO DO WHEN HUSBAND BETRAYS YOUR TRUST **Anne:** I have a guest on today’s episode. She’s going to share her story. She actually wrote a book called *Deceptive Liaisons*, and we’re gonna call her Samantha, because that’s her pen name. As you’ll hear from her story, her husband betrayed her trust. **Anne:** Okay, so Samantha, welcome. Thank you for sharing your story with us today. **Samantha:** Thank you for having me. **Anne:** When did you first suspect that something wasn’t quite right in your relationship? ## SAMANTHA’S STORY BEGINS **Samantha:** When I first caught him with exploitative material, he said, all guys do it. And I’m like, it doesn’t make me feel good. Yeah, he had hidden apps like the app would fake like a calculator, but you put in certain numbers and it opens up to private pictures. And he’s like, Oh, it’s not about you. It’s just, something that all guys do. But when it affected our intimacy, that’s when I questioned, what’s going on here? He told me he had a big addiction. He did say this was something he should have told me before we were married. And he repeatedly promised he didn’t want to lose me over it. And he was going to get help. We were intimate, but it was very few and far between. And he would say, Oh, I have low testosterone or just make excuses. He’d always have his phone with him and take it in the bathroom with him in the middle of the night. And, again, I thought it was exploitative material. **Anne:** That makes sense. Did you realize that there was emotional and psychological abuse happening? **Samantha:** I mean, there was gaslighting and manipulation, my husband betrayed my trust. So part of you looks inward. Why am I not good enough? What have I done? You question, what could I have done differently or what am I doing that I shouldn’t be doing? ## CONFRONTATION & REALIZATION **Samantha:** So, about one in the morning of my birthday, I couldn’t sleep. So I went downstairs to watch TV. I started thinking, I’m just going to check his email. I thought I’d find something. Everything looked pretty normal in the email. Communication between us, friends, work. But when I clicked on archive, the first email was a reservation for a hotel on a business trip the week prior. But the next archived email was a reservation for two for the following night. And I was confused, because he had asked to go out for drinks with someone after work. He did this regularly. And that’s another reason why I didn’t suspect, because he always came home for the night. But I didn’t realize you can check in at 3 and be home by 11. Anyway, I was shocked. I was thinking, well, maybe I’m mistaken. Maybe it’s a surprise for me. So I got ready for work, brought him coffee, and he’s like, what’s wrong? And I asked him point blank, are you having an affair? And he looked me right in the eyes, and he goes, no, babe, I would never do that. I love you way too much. So I went to work, and there were streamers, balloons and gifts around my desk. And I was like, I don’t feel like celebrating. I don’t feel like myself. And then I double checked the, email just to see, maybe I saw something wrong. And when I clicked on the first reservation for his business trip, I did a double take and it wasn’t for a business trip, it was a beachfront resort in Hawaii for two the entire time. It is devastating to find out that my husband had betrayed my trust. ## EMOTIONAL BREAKDOWN CAUSED BY MY HUSBAND’S BETRAYAL OF TRUST **Samantha:** And he was on the same island I was on the whole time. It confirmed what I had been feeling. I ended up having to leave work, got home, and was just staring into space. And the phone rang, I answered it, and it was him. He says, hey, I called you at work and they said, you left. And I said, yeah, I decided to take the day off. And he goes, are you sure nothing else is wrong? So I gave him another opportunity to tell me the truth. And I asked him again, are you having an affair? And this time he’s almost got a little bit of anger in his voice. Like, come on, why are you asking me this? You know, I’d never do it. You need to get that out of your head. I love you too much. And that’s when I just lost it and broke down. And I’m like, I know you weren’t in Phoenix last week on business. You were with her. You’re meeting her again tomorrow night. It was probably a very short pause, maybe five seconds, but to me it felt like an eternity. That confirmed exactly, because he had no answer. I had caught him, and that’s when I just crumbled to the floor. I went into complete shock and started blurting out, who is she? How long have you known her? Where’d you meet? Da, da, da, da, and, of course, he didn’t give me the truth, [my husband was lying to me](/my-husband-is-lying-to-me/ "my husband just lie upon lie"). He had betrayed my trusts so deeply. The more I uncovered, the more questions I had. ## THEY COUNT ON US NOT KNOWING **Samantha:** There was so much gaslighting, I thought I was the problem, you know? If I had only done this better, and if I could have just done that better. In fact, I went to a counselor myself. I just wanted to make sure I’m a better person for him. I tried to look inside myself. And then realizing it wasn’t me after all. He was just turning it around so that I questioned myself and not him. And just so many lies upon lies. I don’t know how he kept up with it. **Anne:** Wow, I’m so sorry. That is absolutely devastating. Now that you know what you went through. When you didn’t realize it while you went through it. Like now that you realize, oh, wow, he was emotionally and psychologically abusive to me. For a lot of our marriage, and I didn’t understand. How does that change your perspective now, looking back? **Samantha:** I realize, looking back probably right from the beginning when we were dating. That the manipulation started back then, but I didn’t know what it was. How do you deal with that when you don’t know that your husband has been betraying your trust your whole marriage? **Anne:** Yeah, they know that we don’t know, and they count on that. It’s not like we’re stupid for not knowing. They’re like, not good people for purposefully doing that and being happy that we don’t know. And that says nothing about us and everything about them. **Samantha:** You know, if you’d have asked me, if your husband ever cheated, I’m like, I’m out of there. I’m leaving. But you don’t know until you’ve actually experienced it. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## COUNSELING & RECOVERY ATTEMPTS **Samantha:** And I wanted to save my marriage. We’d been married just over 20 years and had a blended family of six children. His first wife died of cancer when the boys were three and six. And together we raised six children, and I expected to be forever with him. So we went to counseling together, marriage counseling. and separate therapy. And he joined the addiction group to help with his addiction. **Anne:** So even though you’d known about his addiction, your whole marriage. He didn’t start addiction recovery until after you found out about the affair. Now I know your story, so I know there are multiple affairs that you find out about later, all just continued betrayals of your trust. Knowing your story, at this point you began doing a bunch of things that the marriage counselor suggested or he suggested. Can you talk about that? **Samantha:** Oh, yeah, initially it was his idea for me to track him. I had access to all his everything, passwords and whatnot. I had an app that tracked everywhere he was, and if he was with anyone. Like in business or having lunch or with anyone, he would send a picture. **Anne:** I’m actually wondering, and I don’t know if you’ve thought of this, but that he maybe had a burner phone or something, and so he suggested it knowing that he could gain your trust but still get away with it. **Samantha:** I mean, he could have left his phone on his desk and gone out, and I wouldn’t have known. That’s stressful, and it creates anxiety. ## HUSBAND’S FINAL BETRAYAL OF TRUST & DIVORCE **Samantha:** If I look at the app and see, oh, is he supposed to be here? It was exhausting. I’m constantly missing out on what’s going on in front of me. And I couldn’t do it anymore. To me, character is defined by how you behave when no one’s watching. So I wanted to see how he’s going to behave? I said to him one day I’m going to keep taking care of the bills, and I’m going to delete the app so I no longer track you. And, within a week, he signed up with a couple of the sleazy dating sites. And, in no time, I found a 27 year old girl he met up and paid for sex in a hotel. Continued betrayal of trust from my husband. Another week went by, and we had our 20th anniversary. And I served him with divorce papers on our anniversary. I felt like I was worth more than what I was receiving. And I couldn’t keep putting myself in that place of pain. I wanted to move forward and have joy in my life again. **Anne:** Can you talk about what helped you [recover after betrayal?](/recovery-after-betrayal/ " recover after betrayal?") **Samantha:** I narrow it down to: avoid alcohol and cannabis. Alcohol is a depressant, and you’ve already got a gaping wound. You don’t need to add salt to it. And, find someone to talk to, preferably someone who specializes in betrayal. I needed help, and I wanted someone experienced in betrayal. So thank you. My pastor referred me. That makes you know that you’re not alone. ## TALKING TO SOMEONE WHO SPECIALIZES IN BETRAYAL **Anne:** I couldn’t have said it better myself. When your husband betrays your trust, it’s so important to talk to someone who specializes in betrayal and understands it. Like we do here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, our coaches are incredible. You can hear women’s stories on the [best relationship podcast](/podcast/), which will help you know that you’re not alone. **Anne:** Well, Samantha, thank you so much for sharing your story with us today. **Samantha:** Thank you for having me. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma --- ### [Best Marriage Counseling Near Me for Couples? Here's How to Know](https://www.btr.org/best-marriage-counseling-near-me-for-couples/) **Published:** July 15, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** You've discovered your husband's secret infidelity. What to know BEFORE you go to couple therapy. **Content:** If you’ve discovered your husband’s lies or infidelity, will marriage counseling help? What you need to know about the best marriage counseling near me for couples. Did you know that most couples who are seeking counseling are dealing with emotional abuse? To find out if your husband is using any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take our [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ## DO WE NEED MARRIAGE COUNSELING? Are you considering marriage counseling because you just discovered your husband’s been lying to you. If you recognize that couple therapy is contraindicated for your specific situation, but are desperate for solutions, or at least support, please recognize that your emotional safety is the priority. Rather than focusing on helping your partner recognize their harmful behavior, you can focus on establishing emotional and physical regulation and safety for yourself. Consider: - Listening to [The Free Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast](https://www.btr.org/podcast/) to understand more about what’s going on in this situation. - [Scheduling an Individual Session](https://www.btr.org/individual/) with a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coach to determine what you need to meet your own basic needs, including sleep, hydration, and nutrition. - Attending a [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session](https://www.btr.org/group/) to process your trauma and find strength in community It can be devastating to realize that addiction marriage counseling will likely make the situation worse. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take this [free emotional abuse quiz.](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/) ## TRANSCRIPT: BEST MARRIAGE COUNSELING NEAR ME FOR COUPLES **Anne:** It’s just me today. So many women wonder about marriage counseling. Women in [our community](https://www.btr.org/group/) often ask our coaches or ask me, “I need a good couple therapist. Who should I go to?” And that’s what I’m going to talk about today. When it comes to women seeking couple therapy or marriage counseling. These are the two scenarios I see the most often. #### Scenario 1: Unaware of Husband’s Actions **Anne:** Number one when a woman is unaware that her husband secretly uses explicit material, has affairs or hooks up with women from online dating apps. Usually the woman isn’t aware that her husband is doing this. She just knows something’s wrong in her marriage. When couples are having problems, people usually recommend marriage counseling. And because this is the most common recommendation, of course, she’s going to think that marriage counseling will help. #### Scenario 2: Wife’s Involvement in Therapy **Anne:** And number two, the wife convinces the husband to go to therapy, his own therapy. But then when she doesn’t see a difference or feels like he’s getting worse. She’ll think, well maybe if I’m involved, then I’ll see the improvements I’m looking for. ## WHEN MARRIAGE COUNSELING FOR COUPLES ISN’T ADVISED **Anne:** I have a master’s degree in education. And abuse educators like me don’t advise marriage counseling in any way, shape or form. Some women are confused, because the rare abuse program asks for your involvement, meaning the victims. So the therapist can get the truth about what’s going on. Why does a so-called good abuse program want the wife’s involvement? It’s because they know that the abuser will continue to lie and manipulate the therapist. They also know that if she’s not involved, he’s not going to go. Which is like the biggest red flag right there. I’ve interviewed over 300 betrayal trauma victims on my podcast and in our community. And due to their reports about the harm done to them in both scenarios. I don’t advise. Any of the following: couple therapy, marriage counseling, suggesting your husband get therapy, or being involved in his treatment in any way. Even if you have your therapist, and [your abusive husband’s therapist](https://www.btr.org/your-abusive-husbands-therapist/ "your abusive husband therapist") talk to each other. I do not recommend that either. I’ll talk about what I do recommend near the end of the podcast. It’ll become really obvious why I don’t recommend marriage counseling, ever. ## FIVE REQUIREMENTS FOR EFFECTIVE MARRIAGE COUNSELING **Anne:** As I talk about the five things that need to be true in order for marriage counseling to be effective. #### Requirement 1: Knowing the Truth **Anne:** Everyone involved needs to know the truth about the source of the conflict and agree on the source of the conflict. So in on a regular marriage counseling situation. It might be. That he likes golf and she hates golf. And that’s it. That is the source of the conflict, but he golfs a lot, and she doesn’t want him to golf a lot. And he’s like, yeah, that is the source of the conflict. I mean, the truth is out there. #### Requirement 2: Honest Identification of Conflict **Anne:** Both partners willingly, honestly, and humbly identify their contribution to the conflict without needing to be convinced of it by someone else. So no one is trying to impose their interpretation on one of the other people. And they both willingly, honestly, and humbly identify their contribution. #### Requirement 3: Healthy Relationship Expectations **Anne:** Both partners have healthy expectations for the relationship. So in regular marriage counseling, it might be that spending two nights together a week is healthy. But expecting your partner to be with you 24 hours a day, seven days a week, is not healthy. #### Requirement 4: Consistent Demonstration of Responsibilities **Anne:** Both partners have consistently demonstrated they actually do. So this is something that you’ve seen with your eyeballs, not something that they talk about. They actively actually do childcare, household chores, and relationship management independently. Without prompting or oversight from the other. So this would mean he takes care of the kids without being asked, without being managed. He can do household chores without being managed. He takes the initiative to actively participate in the marriage, in his child’s life. And the upkeep of the household, grocery shopping, cleaning. You know, all that stuff. #### Requirement 5: Improving Communication & Intimacy **Anne:** The reason the couple will attend marriage counseling is to improve their communication skills, their conflict resolution skills or intimacy skills. It’s not to address his abuse, his lying, or his affairs. So if a man is a explicit materials user and has affairs, inappropriately texts coworkers, or been lying to you for years. If he’s been blaming you to manipulate you and exploit you[ and you have betrayal trauma from infidelity](https://www.btr.org/cheating-husband-says/ "And you have betrayal trauma from infidelity"). None of those five things I just said can be true. ## MARRIAGE COUNSELING SHOULD NEVER BE RECOMMENDED IN THESE CIRCUMSTANCES Number one, because he’s purposefully lying in manipulating you and everyone else to avoid the true source of the conflict, his explicit content use, his lies or his double life. Number two, he’s never willingly honestly, or humbly identified, that he is the source of the conflict. But his choices are the source of the conflict. In fact, he’s been hiding it from you on purpose. Gaslighting you so that you don’t discover it. Number three, due to his explicit content use. He doesn’t have healthy expectations. If he expects you to look like the women in the content look, that’s not healthy. If he views you as an object, he’ll expect you to do what he wants. Like don’t ask questions. That’s not a healthy expectation. If he’s an exploiter, he’s going to see the relationship as a series of transactions. He goes to work, you give him it, or he brings home a paycheck. And you manage the children in household chores, the relationship, and everything else. That’s a transactionship. That’s not a relationship. Number four, if he has an exploitative character. The likelihood of him without you managing it for him, managing childcare, household tasks, any of that stuff, grocery shopping. The likelihood of him repairing the relationship, planning dates, or starting hard conversations is almost zero. He might do these things to groom you while he’s trying to achieve a goal. But once that goal was achieved, he’ll stop. So he doesn’t consistently do any of these things. ## THE FIFTH REASON THESE REQUIREMENTS FAIL IN ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIPS **Anne:** And number five, as you’re thinking about couple therapy in this scenario, if you’re thinking about marriage counseling. You don’t want to go to therapy to improve communication skills, because your communication is fine. Your conflict resolution skills, your intimacy skills are fine. So, if you’re not thinking, Hey, I need to improve my intimacy skills or my conflict resolution. If you just want to stop him from abusing you, or you want to figure out what’s going on. Then number five is not true. And r addiction marriage counseling will not work for you. Unfortunately, even if none of the five requirements for couples therapy or addiction marriage counseling are true. She may not know that he’s lying. Couple therapists don’t do emotional or psychological abuse screenings before they start couple therapy. And they don’t do abuse screenings for addiction marriage counseling. Most of the time, a couple therapist doesn’t know what is going on, and neither does the wife. And this situation is going to make it worse. A regular couple therapist only has one job. It’s to help the couple improve communication so they can resolve their conflicts. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) A man with an exploitative character is never interested in resolving conflicts. Although he may talk like he is, that’s actually a way that he’s going to continue to manipulate a victim. If he’s only interested in exploiting you, he’s going to see this whole situation as this perfect setup to continue to lie and manipulate you through the therapist. So I just talked about the five things that need to be true for couple therapy. ## NO ONE SHOULD EVER GO TO SEX ADDICTION MARRIAGE COUNSELING **Anne:** They apply equally to addiction marriage counseling. Which is why no one ever should go. Because those five things are never true if there’s addiction. When it comes to classic couple therapy, there are five things that guarantee a couple therapist will enable his abuse. And things will get worse for you. It will actually put your marriage at a greater risk for divorce. Because his abuse will escalate during couples therapy or addiction marriage counseling. And if he starts to escalate due to addiction marriage counseling, divorce might be your only option for safety. So you need to take this seriously. If you want to avoid divorce. I take this extremely seriously, because on a very personal level, divorce did not solve my ex-husband’s abuse problem. He continued to abuse me and my children emotionally, psychologically, and financially for eight years after our divorce. So I get it that women don’t want to consider divorce. And I’ll tell you my personal story of what happened with couples therapy in a minute. If you want to avoid divorce, you want to avoid an escalation of his abuse for obvious reasons. That’s the number one reason you never want to go to couple therapy. Or even desire couple therapy or addiction marriage counseling. When it comes to regular couple therapists, those trained in abuse will refuse to treat couples who meet the following criteria. ## COUPLE THERAPY & MARRIAGE COUNSELING MAKE EMOTIONAL ABUSE WORSE **Anne:** What I’ve noticed is they’re either not trained in abuse, so they don’t know to refuse couples who meet this criteria. Or they think there’s an exception. Women tell me so many stories. A couple therapist or addiction marriage counselor thought he or she was this gift to humanity. This pride caused them to bend the rules. Because they thought they’d been more successful than they actually were. So in the 300 interviews I did with betrayal trauma victims. They report they went to a addiction marriage counseling. And then they actually thought it worked for a minute. These women were pretty happy in the moment. And then they stopped going to therapy. And then they find out six months, a year, or two years later. That the husband was lying and manipulating the entire time. And it’s so traumatic to find that out. And so when she discovers that the addiction marriage counseling worsened it. He was able to groom her and manipulate her even worse than before. She usually doesn’t go back to that same therapist, because even the thought of that therapist is so traumatic for her. It’s painful to her to even think that she just spent all that money and time, and it didn’t do anything. So she usually doesn’t go back and say, hey, this didn’t work. So these therapists, all they know is that she left happy. They don’t know the end of the story. Alternatively, women tell me all the time that they came to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, started listening to the podcast. And they were like, this is kind of extreme. I don’t think this is my situation. So then they went to a couple therapy, and had a horrific experience. ## ETHICAL CRITERIA FOR COUNSELORS TO REFUSE A COUPLE FOR THERAPY: ABUSE OF ANY TYPE **Anne:** They return to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, like five years later. And let me know, oh, my word, this is what happened. And they tell me their stories. So women come back to Betrayal Trauma Recovery all the time to tell me. Whereas I don’t think your typical therapist has that scenario. So they just think they were successful. I find the attitude of addiction marriage counselors, that they can fix an abuser offensive. They don’t understand abuse. In that case, or they think the criteria I’m about to tell you doesn’t apply to them. Which is a huge red flag. And if they don’t have a screening process for this type of abuse, it’s unethical. So a couple therapist should refuse to treat any couple who meets any of these five criteria. Number one, if there is abuse of any type, emotional, psychological, sexual, physical, financial, any abuse whatsoever present. Lying, manipulation and gaslighting are abuse. So if your husband lied about his use, he’s been abusing you. And that disqualifies you from addiction marriage counseling, or couple therapy. But if you don’t know he’s been lying and you go to couple therapy, do you see the problem here? If he’s been lying to you about his use or his infidelity. He’s not going to suddenly tell the truth to a couple therapist. Similarly, if he admits to the explicit content use or you find it. And so you’re like, hey, let’s go to addiction marriage counseling. You’re in the same boat. ## CRITERIA 2 FOR COUNSELORS TO REFUSE A COUPLE FOR THERAPY: MENTAL ILLNESS OR ADDICTION **Anne:** Either way, there’s been abuse. But the addiction marriage counselor will not see it as an abuse issue. They’re going to treat it as an addiction issue. Number two, any couple where one or both of the partners has a mental illness or addiction problem. Couple therapy is never indicated. So even if you don’t want to label his addiction as abuse, this still disqualifies you as a couple from addiction marriage counseling. Addiction marriage counseling should not even exist. It should not be a thing. Anyone doing it is unethical. Because you’ve got abuse, addiction, and maybe a mental illness issue. Let’s look at the victim for just a second, even if she’s been diagnosed with an anxiety disorder or depression, or sometimes bipolar. Many times she’s diagnosed with these things because she’s an abuse victim, and they don’t factor that in. So rather than saying, you’re fine. There’s nothing wrong with you. You’re just an abuse victim. Let’s get you to safety. She gets a diagnosis. Every therapist should know that if mental illness is part of the mix, couple therapy is contraindicated. So if there’s any mental illness in the mix that’s diagnosed or known, or if he’s a known addict, that couple therapist should immediately stop couple therapy. And if you ever have a therapist who says, hey, he’s a addict, and so you need addiction marriage counseling, that’s the biggest red flag in the universe. ## CRITERIA 3: A LACK OF EMPATHY **Anne:** Let’s go back to this mental illness issue for just a minute. Some experts say two thirds of addicts have a mental illness now. I don’t care about this part, because all I care about is how it affects her and to her it’s abuse. But the stats are 44% of addicts have a personality disorder or traits of a personality disorder. And so some therapists will be like, oh, there’s a mental illness. Let’s treat that. I’ll tell you why I’m not a big fan of that in just a minute. They might say to you, you are experiencing PTSD symptoms, which is true. However, do they say you’re experiencing PTSD symptoms, but you’re fine? You’re totally normal. You’re acting exactly as you should be acting as an abuse victim. Because that’s what they should tell you. Instead, if they say you have some kind of mental illness because of your PTSD. Then you would be disqualified from couple therapy, which would sure disqualify you from addiction marriage counseling. Number three, if there is a lack of empathy, then a couple therapy is contraindicated. This is where one or both parties are unwilling or unable to understand the other person’s perspective. If empathy is lacking, many therapists who have this, like I can fix him complex, will try to teach him to have empathy. They’ll give him scripts and do empathy training. Like a fake it till you make it sort of approach. That is so dangerous, then abusers learn to mimic empathy, but they don’t actually feel it. So they understand the mechanics, and then they’ll use it as a weapon to groom you. And wives come back and report over and over that this type of therapy made their husband a super abuser. ## CRITERIA 4: INFIDELITY **Anne:** He began to talk in very empathetic ways and sounded better, but it just felt so cruel because his behavior hadn’t changed. He was doing it in ways that were so much more insidious and almost evil. Like we’ve had women come back and say he turned into the scariest person ever. Because everyone else was like, look how healthy and wonderful he is. And he’s so empathetic and loving. He used scripts from couples therapy or addiction marriage counseling to manipulate more. And that is one of the most distressing things that women report. Number four, if one person has engaged in a relationship outside the marriage. So like explicit content, which is a relationship with hundreds of women outside the marriage. Emotional affairs, then couple therapy is always contraindicated. Number five, if one person doesn’t want to reconcile or solve problems. So a man with an exploitative character, he never has the goal of solving problems. His only goal is to get what he wants from her, not to build something together. So if he’s got that type of character, whether you know it or not, couple therapy will escalate the situation. As reported by the women I interviewed, some therapists will say that if an addict or abuser has had a certain period of sobriety, or hasn’t been abusive, or has been in treatment for his addiction for his abuse for a year. Or a certain amount of time, it’s okay to start couple therapy or marriage counseling. And they report it did not go well, even after a period of sobriety or treatment. ## ANNE’S PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH COUPLE THERAPY **Anne:** In fact, my own experience illustrates this well. I had been [dealing with an addict husband ](https://www.btr.org/how-to-deal-with-an-addict-husband/ "dealing with an addict husband ")going to his own individual addiction therapist for years. We’d never tried addiction marriage counseling or couple of therapy before. Because I’d always refused. And things seemed like they had gotten a little better. They hadn’t. It was more like I was the frog in the pot, you know, I didn’t know that he had learned to lie better. But because I thought things had improved since he’d been doing therapy and [going to 12 step, he admitted he was an addict](https://www.btr.org/12-step-for-wives-of-addicts/ "going to 12 step, he admitted he was an addict"). And then he said the reason why things aren’t going perfectly yet was because we needed to go to couple therapy. There were some things that “we needed to work out”. He’d been wanting me to do couple therapy the entire time. Sorry, side note, just yesterday I had one victim ask me if I knew he wanted to do it? I knew it was a bad idea, and that was my best test for whether the course of action was safe. Which kind of makes me smile now. Because my husband wanted to do couple therapy at the time, he was so excited. I remember when I agreed, he literally leaped off the couch and was like, awesome. Everything’s going to get better now. So we did 19 addiction marriage counseling sessions. And things only escalated. I think it’s because he thought now’s the time to unleash all my resentments toward her. All my feelings based on all my erroneous thought processes. Because he hadn’t changed his abusive thinking at all. And he wanted the couple therapist to cram it into me. ## MARRIAGE COUNSELORS MUST OPERATE UNDER THE ASSUMPTION OF EQUALITY **Anne:** Because he was like, I can’t convince her that she’s got these problems, but now I can get the therapist to do it. And he became more and more abusive to the point where he hurt me and was actually arrested. And the court gave him a no contact order. Now couples therapists ethically, to maintain their licensure, must operate under the assumption of safety and equality. And in a situation with betrayal and addiction, there is no equality. Lies create an abusive power dynamic, because one person has more power than the other, because they have more information. So any couple [therapist who does not see lying as an abuse](https://www.btr.org/warning-signs-of-an-abusive-therapist/) issue creates a situation unequal and unsafe. ## MARRIAGE COUNSELING FOR COUPLES CAN MAKE THINGS WORSE And so they’re not maintaining those ethical standards of operating with safety and equality. Okay, let’s move on to the second scenario I introduced at the beginning, when wives avoid addiction marriage counseling, or couple therapy. But I think his individual therapy isn’t going that well. And maybe if she talks to his therapist, the outcome will improve. When I discovered the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop Strategies](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/), one of the things that was like rattling around in my mind was about one well-known addiction marriage counseling practitioner. I’d heard accounts of his abuse to women. He would require her to sign a contract that she wouldn’t leave the marriage for a year. That she couldn’t use anything she learned in addiction marriage counseling in a divorce. He made her sign a contract, stuff was really bad. I’ve heard a lot about this guy. He would tell the addicts or the abusers. If she’s angry, don’t worry. We can work with that. That’s not a problem, the only thing we can’t use is your wife’s apathy. ## COMPLEXITIES OF MARRIAGE COUNSELING OR COUPLE THERAPY **Anne:** Knowing that he thought he could use the woman’s emotions to benefit this himself. And the only thing he felt he could not use to the advantage of the abuser was apathy. That rattled around in my mind for a long time. And that concept is well explained in [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop.](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) The Living Free Workshop outlines why it’s not safe to have your therapist talk to your husband’s therapist. Or to participate in your husband’s therapy as an observer, or to meet with a therapist with your husband. Even if the therapist says it’s not couple therapy or addiction marriage counseling. Which seems like word salad to me. So after explaining to you all the reasons why a couple therapy is sometimes counter-indicated, and addiction marriage counseling is always contra-indicated. You’re probably thinking. We don’t fit the criteria, and he continues to harm me. So, what do I do? I outline exactly what to do in [The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). Because it’s different than anything you’ve heard before, I wanted to visually show this to you. The Living Free Workshop is 55 video lessons. The total runtime of all 55 lessons is only two hours and 20 minutes. On average, they’re only three minutes each. I broke it up into tiny bite-sized pieces. The shortest video is 28 seconds, the longest is six minutes. There’s a question between each lesson that you can either answer. If you want to process it on a really deep level, or you can just like put an X in the box and push next. Then you also process the information with the free workbook that comes with it. It’s a PDF, a beautiful two page spread. ## THE LIVING FREE WORKSHOP HELPS YOU DETERMINE YOUR HUSBAND’S CHARACTER **Anne:** And so if you want it in color, you can get it printed at like Kinko’s or something. It’s more expensive. The cheapest way to print it is to order it on Amazon. It’ll come quickly, or you can print it at your house either way. Just make sure if you print it, print it double-sided. The Living Free Workshop will help determine your husband’s character. And help you know what to do. If you take the Living Free Workshop and you’re like, oh wait, he’s actually not abusive. Then couple therapy might be an option for you. And that would be great. But addiction marriage counseling should never be on the table, because it never meets the criteria for a couple therapy, ever. I don’t even know why it exists. If you’ve enrolled in The Living Free Workshop, I’d love to know what you thought about it. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Husband Is on Phone All the Time? His Online Choices Could Hurt More Than Just You](https://www.btr.org/husband-is-on-phone-all-the-time/) **Published:** July 22, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** If his actions involve supporting exploitative material, his behavior on his phone constitutes abuse. **Content:** Exploitative material isn’t entertainment, it’s the commercialization of women’s bodies. It’s harmful to everyone. If your husband is on phone all the time, it’s important to know, that what he’s doing on his phone *really matters.* [If it seems like your husband is on his phone all the time and cares more about what’s on his phone than he does about you, you need support. Attend one of our live, daily Group Sessions TODAY.](https://www.btr.org/group/) ## EXPLOITATIVE MATERIAL IS HARMFUL TO WOMEN If he’s using exploitative materials on his phone, there are the real implications of his actions. If your husband is on the phone so much that he’s ignoring you or dismissing you or not helping with the family, it’s possible that there’s more going on that meets the eye. His attitudes and choices may actually be emotional abuse. To find out if he is using any of these 19 emotional abuse tactics, take our[ free emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/) ## TRANSCRIPT: HUSBAND IS ON PHONE ALL THE TIME? **Anne:** I have Laila Mickelwaite on today’s episode. She has appeared on the podcast before to talk about her nonprofit, Justice Defense Fund, and how they combat the exploitation industry, which victimizes women and children through material often uploaded and viewed by the victims’ husbands or their groomers. Welcome, Laila. **Laila:** Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate you. **Anne:** I appreciate you. You have done so much in such a short amount of time. And I’m hopeful this will help bring more awareness to women about the possible implications if your husband is on the phone all the time using exploitative material. Let’s start with your new book called *Takedown*. **Laila:** Yes, so excited to finally have that out after years of writing. The reason I wanted to write this book was to get the truth out about P\*\*nhub and its parent company. It has a monopoly on the global industry. I want to get the truth about what has happened to so many victims on the public record, to educate people, activate them, inspire them, and ultimately get more people informed and engaged in the fight for justice, not only against P\*\*nhub. MindGeek, was recently renamed ILO to try to distance themselves from their toxic image. I really want to help take down and, most importantly, prevent illegal content from distribution on user generated sites. So that’s why I wrote the book. And one hundred percent of all proceeds from the sale of the book go to the Justice Defense Fund. ## GLOBAL REACH & PETITIONING FOR JUSTICE **Laila:** To help this cause, the fight for justice, to hold mega abusers accountable, and to really bring needed closure and restitution to victims. So that’s the purpose. You can go to [takedownbook.com](https://takedownbook.com) and there you can purchase the book at really any major online retailer. Penguin Random House publishes it, so you can find audiobook or ebook or hardcover. You can find it in Canada, the UK, Australia, New Zealand, and the United States. And someone is translating it into Chinese, but yeah, [takedownbook.com](https://takedownbook.com) and there you can also sign the petition. Over 2 million people signed the petition to shut down P\*\*hub and hold its executives accountable from every country in the world. ## IMPLICATIONS OF WHAT HE’S DOING ON HIS PHONE **Laila:** This isn’t only for exploited children. Their lives are completely shattered because of the distribution of their trauma on P\*\*nhub and its sister sites. But also adult victims, victims assaulted and trafficked. Also victims who have consensually recorded videos and then had it non-consensually distributed, which is very traumatic for them. **Anne:** Yeah. It is. We have women in our community who have had that happen, and it’s been horrific. Then they find out their husband was on the phone all the time watching to see if his non-consensual videos got the views on YouTube. It’s awful **Laila:** And we know that according to surveys, victims of what we call image-based abuse have almost a 50 percent rate of suicidal ideation. So it’s very traumatizing. What happens is when the videos are uploaded, they become the immortalization of trauma. People download them and then upload again and again. They understand that this will happen in perpetuity for the rest of their lives. They can’t escape it, and so this is horrific. It was happening en masse on the world’s most popular and trafficked site. When the fight began at the beginning of 2020, just for context, it was the largest and most popular site. But by the end of the Corona virus pandemic, which was in full swing, they had actually become the fifth most trafficked website. So the fifth most visited website across the entire internet had 170 million visits per day, 62 billion visits per year, and enough content uploaded every year, every 12 months, that it would take 169 years to watch if you put those videos back to back. ## MINDGEEK’S MONOPOLY **Laila:** Owned by a parent company called MindGeek, who with a $362 million loan had rolled up the industry, owning most of the world’s most popular sites and brands. So, what I discovered at the beginning of February 2020, this is about 15 years in the fight against trafficking. And I’m paying attention to the headlines. I’m looking and investigating the industry and its ties to trafficking and abuse. And I see some really concerning headlines. At the end of 2019, one of them was a 15 year old girl missing for a year. They found her when a user tipped off her distraught mother. He recognized her daughter on the site. She was assaulted in 58 videos sold for profit. And then the Sunday Times had done an investigation. They found dozens of illegal videos within minutes, even children as young as three years old. And then, like I said, it’s not just children, but also adults. A woman named Nicole Adamando’s partner from New York tortured and assaulted her. He filmed the abuse and uploaded it. She killed him in self-defense but was then sentenced to life in prison and separated from her two young children.. These are just horrifying headlines. That happened at the end of 2019. As an advocate against abuse and trafficking, of course, these arrested my attention. I had a haunting question that came to mind. ## THE FIGHT FOR ACCOUNTABILITY: WHEN WHAT’S ON HIS PHONE HURTS PEOPLE **Laila:** And that was how in the world did this abuse end up on P\*\*hub? And then, I discovered by testing the upload system, what millions of people already knew, and that was all it took to upload. And this is the reason why the site became infested with illegal content for multiple reasons. The primary reason was that they allowed unlimited upload of user generated images. Anyone with an mobile phone could film a video anywhere in the world and upload it using just an email address. The platform did not check IDs to verify whether the person in the video was a child, underage teen, or tween. It did not verify consent to ensure the video did not involve an assault or trafficking victim. In under 10 minutes, anyone could upload a video to the site, which led to the platform becoming infested with videos of real crimes. And that is how all this began, this fight to hold them accountable for what has happened. Now that has destroyed so many victims’ lives. **Anne:** Thank you. Thank you so much. Like, you didn’t turn away, you went toward it. And that is like so brave. Your work and the way you’re helping women understand the magnitude of this issue, can’t be underestimated. So thank you. This is why it is so important that we are all more aware. So if a husband is on the phone all the time, you’re saying there’s a real possibility he may be supporting this exploitative industry. Since this effects everyone, what can we do to help.\] ## COMMUNITY SUPPORT: A HUSBAND IS ON PHONE ALL THE TIME? **Laila:** I would just say thank you to everybody who’s been part of this movement. Because it certainly hasn’t been a one-woman fight. I took to Twitter using the hashtag trafficking hub after making that discovery. Everybody who cared caused it. Everybody who saw the injustice and didn’t look away, who shared, who signed. Who even took to the streets, week after week with signs protesting. In front of the MindGeek headquarters in Montreal, LA, London, South Africa and all over the world. People who joined this fight in a meaningful way. Of the hundreds of survivors who came forward to powerfully tell their stories and raise their voices, even though they were attacked. And to the journalists, lawmakers, and lawyers, so many people who came together to take on this behemoth of abuse. So from where I sit, I am so grateful to many people who listen to the [betrayal trauma podcast](https://www.btr.org/podcast/), who have signed the petition, who’ve been a part of this. Without all of us coming together, this definitely wouldn’t have been possible. Anne: That’s how we feel about the work we do here. At [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](/contact) we’re educating women about what to look for, and we’re building community support in our [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/). Through [betrayal Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/btr.org_) posts and [betrayal trauma videos](https://www.youtube.com/@BtrOrg "betrayal trauma video"). We reach women, especially if they’re like, “Why is my husband on the phone all the time? Something feels off.” So our focus is helping women feel safe and make progress toward a peaceful life within their own home. But in terms of your work can you share the progress that’s been made since we talked last? ## THE MOVEMENT **Laila:** Yes, huge strides, we still have a ways to go. The fight’s not over, but the story is told in the book *Takedown*. I wrote it in first person present tense. It starts on the night when I’m testing the upload system, and making this discovery that the site is what I call a crime scene. Not a site, a crime scene. I launched the Trafficking Hub hashtag and launched the petition that started to go viral. Survivors are coming forward daily. Whistleblowers from the company are coming forward and sharing internal documents and all the ways this company operates that intentionally enable the global distribution and monetization of crime. They’re peeling back the onion layers of complicity of owners. ## CREDIT CARD COMPANY TIES: IS YOUR HUSBAND PAYING FOR EXPLOITATIVE MATERIAL ON HIS PHONE? **Anne:** Yeah, if he’s on the phone all the time looking at this stuff, how is he paying for it? **Laila:** We fought the credit card companies so hard for years. Finally, in 2022, they cut them off once and for all. Discover MasterCard, Visa, join PayPal, cut all ties with the site. Because one consideration drives every decision, that’s profit. What will make them the most profit? The credit card companies cutting ties was the worst thing that could have happened to them. Over the last four and a half years, they have removed 91 percent of the entire website. They reduced their content from 56 million pieces in 2020 to 5.2 million today. The Thanks to the participation of so many people, Financial Times called this probably the biggest takedown of content in internet history. Because these were unverified videos, meaning they had no idea if they were children, teens, victims of assault, trafficking, or image based abuse. They had no clue. And so many of them were criminal content. And so they were forced to take down that much of the site. The CEO and the COO were forced to resign. The secret majority shareholder of the company, who had been hiding his identity from the public for years, was found. And he was exposed and located. And today he’s being sued by dozens of victims. Nearly 300 victims are suing p\*\*nhub and its parent company in 25 lawsuits, including multiple certified class actions for tens of thousands of child victims. ## THE FUTURE GOALS FOR JUSTICE **Laila:** And the U.S. federal government has criminally charged them for intentionally profiting from trafficking. And sold as a distressed asset to a disgustingly named private equity firm. It was hastily concocted, and they named themselves Ethical Capital Partners, but this is what’s happened so far. And we hope to see full justice, meaning victims are provided the restitution, that we see full criminal prosecution. Ultimately, we’d like to see them shut down completely to send a message to others that not only bring justice to victims. But to send a message to anyone who would operate like them, that this impunity, this exploitation for profit, will just not be tolerated. And hopefully that can deter future abusers. Because if a husband is on the phone all the time using pornography, it indicates he’s involved with the abuse of these women. As a result of all of this, what we really want to see. We want to see agent consent verification policies for all user generated sites. To prevent this from happening in the future. They’ve refused to do it for so many years. They set up the business model to profit from unrestricted amounts of content. Because the way they make money on the site is by selling advertising impressions. So on this site alone, they were selling 4. 6 billion ad impressions on the site every day. And in order to sell that many ad impressions on the site, they have to have massive amounts of traffic coming to the site. And in order to have massive amounts of traffic, they have to have inventory to show up in Google to drive those results. So they have to have so much content in order to drive that traffic. ## VERIFYING IDENTITIES **Laila:** And so they don’t want to limit content or any friction in uploading. They want it free for all. Upload whatever you want. They didn’t care what is being uploaded. They just wanted videos, which actually were crime scene videos. So that’s why they resisted for so long until even September of 2024, after all this happened. They finally said, and we will have to see what’s going to happen if they’re actually going to do it properly. But they said they’ll start to verify the ID of the individuals in new videos uploaded to the site. But they still have to account for 5 million videos uploaded, without verifying who’s in them and whether they consented to that being uploaded. So we’re demanding the rest come down. **Anne:** Wow, sorry, it’s so intense. That anyone could be educated about this even a little bit and say that money is more important than a victim’s emotional, and psychological safety is insane. It’s like shocking. The final step in this true crime story is to legally and financially hold the founders accountable. So that others don’t replicate this business model. And then I have a follow up question about the new buyers. **Laila:** Ethical Capital Partners, yeah, the new owners. One of the things that’s so important in this fight, and I’m so proud of, is the survivors who courageously came forward. To personally sue by name, not just the corporation, but the individual owners. And I’ll just share the story of one particular survivor who has just led the charge on doing this. ## ONE SURVIVOR’S STORY **Laila:** And her name is Serena, and she was an innocent 14 year old from Bakersfield, California. Who had videos of her abuse uploaded again and again. They had a download button on every video, so anybody could possess these videos on their devices. And then upload them again and again to the internet. She would beg them to take these videos down. And if they would even answer her, you know, most of the time they would ignore her, she said. But then if they answered, they would hassle her to prove she was a victim, prove she was underage in the videos. And even if she could get them down, they would just go up again. And this sent her on a spiral of trauma and despair. She dropped out of school because she was being bullied. And she got addicted to drugs to numb the pain. She tried to kill herself multiple times. And then wound up homeless, living out of a car. But today, Serena has told her story, not only that, but she sued. Also its owners individually, the CEO, the COO, the secret majority shareholder exposed. Not only that, she’s also suing Visa for their participation in all this, for their processing of her criminal abuse. This is because if a husband is on phone all the time using pornography, he’s abusing these victims too. And she’s suing the hedge funds that gave MindGeek the money to have their business in the first place. Colbeck Capital, Redwood Capital, and dozens of survivors are doing the same, suing the individual owners. I think that is so important. It sends a message to those who make the decisions. You can’t hide behind a corporate veil. You can’t just shield yourself with a corporation. ## NEW NAME & NEW MAN IN CHARGE DOESN’T SOLVE THE PROBLEM **Laila:** That these decisions that you enact, because at the end of the day, these are policies that come from the top. That they will be personally responsible for that. And I think when that happens, it will create a huge deterrent effect. Where the owners of these companies will be afraid to make those same decisions because they will know. That they are not immune from accountability. So I think that is so important. And with the new owners, they’ve called themselves Ethical Capital to try to distance themselves and whitewash history. And they could name themselves something else and maybe try to get people to forget. But the victims will never forget what happened to them. They’ll live with that for the rest of their lives. And they’re currently fighting for justice, even against the new owners. And one thing that’s disturbing to know is that the new face of the company is a man named Solomon Friedman. He’s a criminal defense attorney and has spent his career defending criminals. Time Magazine reported he has had significant experience defending criminals and those who are abusers. He wants to do the same for this company. However, we’re going to keep fighting to ensure the truth is told. And even to this day, like I said, there’s unverified content on the site. And there are illegal videos still up, even after all this happened. So we’re just going to keep sharing the truth. **Anne:** Yeah. Because maybe women don’t know that if there husband is on the phone all the time using this exploitative materials they’re creating demand for these videos. With the credit card companies cutting off people’s ability to use credit cards on these sites. Are people using crypto now? [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## USING CRYPTO CURRENCY: WHAT YOUR HUSBAND MAY BE USING TO PAY FOR EXPLOITATIVE MATERIAL ON HIS PHONE **Laila:** Yes, they can use crypto, so they can still transact, unfortunately. When it was sold to the new owners, was sold as a distressed asset because they lost their credit card companies. Yes, they still can transact using crypto. **Anne:** It just goes more and more criminal, more underground. I’m not gonna argue that going underground is good for it, right? Less people will use it. If a husband is on the phone all the time using it, it victimizes these women. **Laila:** True, it’s so interesting. You said that, because that’s what I hear from victims themselves. They say the most traumatizing part of having these videos distributed is that they’re distributed on the surface web. Where Google crawls. Some of these victims have had their names attached to the videos, their school name. Their town where just anybody can find them. So when they go to the grocery store, they’re standing in line wondering who has seen my assault video? Because it is on the mainstream, most popular sites in the world, accessible to anyone. And like you said, even accessible to children, which is so horrifying to consider. That any child can click a few buttons on a device could end up on the home page. Where there have been criminal videos, even on the home page itself, side by side by real assault videos. And having a child be exposed to that trauma as their introduction to sexuality, as their education is so frightening. **Anne:** That’s abuse. **Laila:** It is abuse. It’s a form of abuse. I talk about the need to protect children on both sides of the screen from viewing this content and also being in the content. ## AGE VERIFICATION LAWS **Laila:** And I’m so encouraged by this wave of momentum that we’ve seen recently, where states are starting to pass age verification laws for users. It’s interesting, because they have aggressively opposed age verification for users. And they have actually shut themselves down in states that have enacted age verification. Or made them liable when a child views their site. So in some cases, states have said, parents could sue the company for not having age verification in place. And in that case, they’ve shut themselves down because they don’t want to lose the money. They don’t want to pay. And we even have the senior community manager is on the record saying what the real reason is. They cite like privacy concerns, this is a privacy and free speech issue. When the senior community manager said this costs us money. And that it would basically be devastating to their revenue. And so, that just shows it’s like this in every case. They’re putting profit before the safety of people. In this case, the safety of children, not to have to witness a crime. **Anne:** I think Utah passed that. But still, if a husband is on phone all the time using exploitative material, it funds this revenue. ## THE SUPREME COURT & AGE VERIFICATION **Laila:** Yeah, there are a number of states, Alabama did and Texas. It’s actually going to the Supreme Court, because in Texas they passed the law, and then they refused to comply. They were sued by the state of Texas. Then they countersued to stop the law from being enacted, they lost. And then they appealed, and then they lost. And now they’re protesting it. So it was a free speech coalition. They was one of the plaintiffs in the case to appeal, and then it’s going to be heard at the Supreme Court. **Laila:** I think the date is January 15. And so they’ll consider whether this is constitutional to enact age verification for users of these kind of sites. **Anne:** Are any senators or anyone consistently voting against these type of bills? ## VOTING FOR SAFETY OVER PROFIT **Laila:** I don’t have anyone voting against these types of bills. What I’ve seen is mostly unanimous support from both sides. Bipartisan support, because the ones opposed to this are the industry people. Because it costs them money. It costs them traffic. And the financial incentive there is to oppose it. But anybody who has common sense, who cares about the safety of children, doesn’t want children to access the sites. And some people say we need device level verification, where that would be Apple, for example. That would instill in the device itself safety for children not to access adult sites. And then some people say, no, it should be at the website level. And I’m saying it should be both. When we are trying to implement safety when we’re driving a car. You have a seatbelt, a roll bar, an airbag, and various ways to protect. I think in this case, it’s both, and yes, do device level verification for kids to protect them. But then also require these sites to have third party age verification for users of those sites. **Anne:** I’m interested in seeing who starts citing free speech issues and not voting for this. If there is anybody, hopefully it will be unanimous. But if there is, I would like to call them out and have people know that this is the person who voted against this. Because like, Oh, here’s somebody who likes pedophiles. I’m interested in seeing how that shakes out. ## PRIVACY CONCERNS & FREE SPEECH: DOES YOUR HUSBAND HAVE A RIGHT TO VIEW THIS ON HIS PHONE? **Laila:** Yeah, and just to clarify, so there’s the age verification laws that we need to see for those accessing the videos. And then there’s the age verification we need for those in the videos. It seems like there’s even less opposition to age verification for those in the videos than the user side. Because some people say, Oh, I don’t want to give over identifying information to access this kind of site. It’s my right to access a site without having to do that. Which isn’t a great argument, because people give over identifying information to shop on Amazon, to use PayPal, to go on Airbnb. **Anne:** Yeah, but they don’t care if people know they bought something on Amazon. If a husband uses his phone all the time to view this material, and doesn’t want his wife to know he’s using it, he’ll lie to her. These types of exploitative men think it’s their right that nobody knows. They should access this without their wife knowing, because if their wife knows, she might be like, I’m not into this. And he wants to maintain power and control in his own home by controlling the narrative of who he is and what his character is. So he does not want his wife to find out. A husband is on phone all the time using exploitative material, funds victimization. **Laila:** Well, then I think those who oppose it need to be clear and honest. And say, it’s not that I care about my privacy. This is not a speech issue. This is, I don’t want anyone to know that I’m going to this site. It’s generally not a privacy issue. It’s privacy about this issue. ## EXPOSING EXPLOITATIVE MEN: HUSBAND IS ON PHONE ALL THE TIME? **Anne:** Totally, but men with an exploitative character will never tell the truth. When a husband is on phone all the time, using pornography, exploiting women, they never say, I want to lie to my wife and live a double life, so I’m going to vote against this bill. They will never say that. They’ll always cite free speech, and say they don’t want government intervention. I don’t know what they’ll say, but they’ll never say, I want to lie to my wife about who I am. Just talking about the man who would claim free speech stuff. It’s not free speech to assault a child, so no. **Laila:** That’s actually true, because when we’re talking about free speech, we’re assuming these sites are distributing legal content. We know that much of the content distributed, because we have figures, victims, cases, and evidence. That a significant portion of what is on these user generated sites. Children can freely access illegal content, which is contraband. It is not an idea, an expression. It’s not any form of legal material. There’s no protection for that kind of content to be distributed. I think that’s why it’s important to make sure that we are talking about the reality of these sites. Because people, perhaps judges, and those considering these cases might have this idea that this is *Playboy*, right? That this is the content you might’ve seen 50 years ago or 20 years ago. But with the advent of user generated content and unrestricted uploads, so much of it is actually criminal content. That’s important for them to consider. What is the material being distributed on these sites? ## PROTECTING VICTIMS & UPDATING LAWS: HUSBAND IS ON PHONE ALL THE TIME? **Laila:** And children need to be protected from viewing. But adult victims and children need to be protected from being used. If a husband is on phone all the time using exploitative material, it produces demand for these videos. We’ve had a law in place in the U.S. since 1988 called U.S. C 2257, which traditionally governed the brick and mortar industry. We think about Exploitation Valley in L. A. and the way studios had produced it. This required them to do age verification and record keeping. And in fact, the Department of Justice could at any time call for the inspection of those documents. And if they didn’t have them, it was actually a criminal offense. However, now with this new model of free user generated distribution. They’ve just completely gone around that important regulation, so we need to update our laws. **Anne:** Do you know of any victim who has used material on these sites or discoveries from her husband on the phone all the time as proof in her own assault case? Not to sue, but criminally to charge her rapist or someone who coerced her? **Laila:** Yes, and it’s not her in the case that I’m going to cite right now. I mean, there are other cases of hers, but this is a him. There was a case of a 12 year old boy from Alabama drugged, overpowered and assaulted by a man named Rocky Shea Franklin. And he filmed the abuse, and he uploaded 23 of those videos. Using titles that indicated this was abuse of a child. They were sold, in a profit sharing relationship with the site. Police located the devices. When they went on the devices, they found he had uploaded them. ## VIDEOS USED AS CRIMINAL CASE EVIDENCE: HUSBAND IS ON PHONE ALL THE TIME? **Laila:** And they saw the videos on the site. They documented them as evidence they used against him. He uploaded the videos of the victim. He’s in prison for 40 years. So, yes, that has definitely happened in more than one instance, where the evidence of the crime were the videos. **Anne:** I wonder if more victims could do that. I know of at least a handful of women in our community who have had videos of them uploaded by their husbands. Like the woman you talked about at the beginning of this episode, and they didn’t know about it. Another’s husband is on phone all the time using pornography, victimizing women. Laila: A recent case shocked the world, horrifying people but also inspiring them with her bravery in holding her husband accountable.. Her name is Giselle Pellicott, and she’s in France. She’s over 70 years old. **Anne:** I did see this. It’s amazing. **Laila:** Yeah, I can’t believe how brave she is. And I completely understand when victims want to be Jane Doe’s because I 100% understand that. So not to say that those who are out there as Jane Doe’s are not courageous because they are. But Giselle’s out there in this public trial. She demanded it be a public trial, her husband actually drugged her. And when she was unconscious, he would recruit men to come and assault her, and he would film it. The police gathered thousands of videos that he had taken, showing how he recruited men from the community. ## GISELLE PELLICOTT’S BRAVE FIGHT **Laila:** Lawyers, policemen, doctors, whatever, not just like guys who are just in their basements. Like you would imagine would do this, but guys who were answering these ads that he’s putting out. To come and assault his wife as she was unconscious. So anyway, she’s having a public trial, and yeah, the evidence of the crime is there. He recorded the actual abuse. And one of the things she insisted, which was shocking to many people, was to have the court actually play some of those videos. So that she could shame. Her idea was to put the shame of what happened on the abuser, not the victim. So they could sit there and be ashamed to see what they did in front of the court. Which was like wow, like people were like, I can’t believe she did that. As this story went public and gained viral traction worldwide, it inspired people everywhere. Individuals at the Justice Defense Fund have shared that similar incidents happened to them. Their husbands or partners drugged them unconscious, assaulted them, and later uploaded evidence, such as videos, to devices or websites. But this is horrifying that this is not a one off case. This is actually happening. **Anne:** I’ve talked with many trafficking experts, and the most likely person to traffic you is your boyfriend, right? Or even maybe your husband. Men who are intent on trafficking, groom you from the beginning. And many women end up marrying their trafficker. This is why it is so important to pay attention when a husband is on phone all the time-to know what he’s doing on there. ## LOVER BOY METHOD OF TRAFFICKING: HUSBAND IS ON PHONE ALL THE TIME? **Anne:** They don’t realize traffickers targeted them from the beginning. Traffickers often pose as boyfriends to groom their victims, sometimes marrying them and [manipulating them into being filmed while having sex](https://www.btr.org/signs-of-emotional-manipulation/). Even if he’s your husband, and you don’t believe he’s intending to do harm, he’s still trafficking. And that may be what he’s doing when he’s on phone all the time. His online choices could harm other people. **Laila:** Yeah, they call it the lover boy method of trafficking. It is common and used all the time. I don’t know if anyone has heard the powerful story of Annie Lobert. She believed she loved this person, her abuser. It’s a powerful story. It does happen often, and they use it as a tactic and method, and prey on that vulnerability. And it’s horrible, but yes, many times it’s familial, someone you know and trust. ## HELP FOR VICTIMS **Anne:** There might be a woman listening today, who is currently experiencing this, and wondering if their boyfriend or husband is on phone all the time viewing exploitative material. If that’s the case, what would you say to her? **Laila:** They can go to the Justice Defense Fund website, [justicedefensefund.org](https://justicedefensefund.org). And there is an intake form where you can fill out a few questions. You don’t have to talk in detail about what happened to you. You fill out a help form and connect with a trauma-informed, licensed representative who advocates at the Justice Defense Fund.. They’ll connect with you, hear your story, and help with whatever the next steps might be from there. **Anne:** Thank you so much for your amazing work. I appreciate you so much. **Laila:** Likewise, thank you so much for having me on and for this conversation, and I hope we can stay in touch. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Think Shame Is the Cause of Cheating? Here's the Truth](https://www.btr.org/cause-of-cheating/) **Published:** July 29, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Learn the real reasons he's hurting you. **Content:** Does shame cause cheating—or is it just an excuse? Discover the real cause of cheating and why shame isn’t the reason your husband keeps lying. [If you’re experiencing the pain and devastation of finding out your husband has betrayed you online, attend one of our daily Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions TODAY.](https://www.btr.org/group/) ## IF YOU’VE BEEN TOLD THAT SHAME IS THE CAUSE OF CHEATING IT’S A LIE Here’s the truth: Cheating is not a mysterious emotional accident. It’s a pattern. A predictable one. And if you’ve been caught in the confusion, these 7 myths will help you see it clearly. ## 1. **“HE CHEATS BECAUSE HE FEELS ASHAMED.”** Nope. Shame doesn’t *cause* cheating—it *follows* it. He cheats, he lies, he gets caught… and then he feels bad. That’s not a root cause. That’s a consequence. Saying shame caused the betrayal is like blaming the fire alarm for the fire. ## 2. **“HE HAS AN ATTACHMENT DISORDER.”** This one gets used to flip the script: *He just doesn’t feel emotionally connected.* But guess what? You *can’t* attach to someone who’s lying to you. Infidelity and porn use destroy connection. If he feels detached, that’s not a disorder—it’s the direct result of his own behavior. ## 3. **“YOU SHOULDN’T SHAME HIM – IT’LL MAKE IT WORSE.”** Translation: Don’t speak up. Don’t react. Don’t be upset. This tactic silences victims. The moment you say, “This hurts me,” he yells, “Stop shaming me!” It’s just another way to dodge accountability and keep you in line. ## 4. **“RELIGIOUS PEOPLE CHEAT MORE BECAUSE OF GUILT.”** There’s a myth that religion causes more cheating because it adds shame. But research shows the opposite—religious people use porn less and cheat less. Guilt doesn’t drive betrayal. Choice does. ## 5. **“YOU SHOULD SUPPORT HIS RECOVERY, SO HE’S NOT ASHAMED”You should support his recovery, So He’s not Ashamed”** You are not his recovery plan. You’re allowed to be angry, to say, “No, I’m not safe here.” Supporting his so-called recovery doesn’t mean tolerating lies, manipulation, or repeat offenses. ## 6. “IF YOU WERE MORE AFFECTIONATE, HE WON’T FEEL SHAME AND THEM HE WOULDN’T CHEAT.” Cheating is not a response to your behavior. It’s a habit he chose long before you found out. You could be the most attentive, sexually available, emotionally present partner on the planet—and he’d still cheat if he wanted to. It’s not about you. ## 7. “IF YOU COMMUNICATE HIS SHAME WILL RESOLVE.” No, it’s not. It’s a deception problem. A control problem. A lack-of-integrity problem. Cheating isn’t caused by miscommunication—it’s caused by deliberate choices to lie, betray, and blame. ## SO WHAT IS THE CAUSE OF CHEATING? It’s simple: he wants to do it. And he chooses to do it. If he’s cheating, he’s not “broken.” He’s not “misunderstood.” He’s not “ashamed.” Because he’s doing what he wants—and using shame, attachment theories, and therapy language to get away with it. If your husband continues to lie, gaslight, manipulate, and turn the tables on you about his behavior, understand that this is emotional and psychological abuse. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take this [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ## TRANSCRIPT: DOES SHAME CAUSE CHEATING? **Anne:** I recently saw a video floating around social media. It had an example of how to, “Not shame the addict.” This video put the addict in the position of victim. Where he felt more or less put upon by his wife or girlfriend. When she reacted to him, telling her he’d been lying to her and abusing her. When their boyfriend or [husband says she’s the problem](https://www.btr.org/my-husband-says-im-the-problem/ "husband says she's the problem"). This is ridiculous. Any victim of abuse can respond to her abuser in any way that she chooses. Does shame cause infidelity? No, it doesn’t. If he changed, if he was “an addict in recovery.” He would understand that she’s the victim and he’s the perpetrator, and that she owes him nothing. I have Gary Wilson on the podcast today to talk about the facts. Shame does not cause addiction, that he is not a victim. In fact, the victims are the victims. If you are a victim of lies, infidelity, or abuse, you need to worry about your own safety, not whether you’re hurting your abuser’s feelings. Gary and I will also talk about how addicts use the theory that they have an “attachment disorder” and expect you to attach with them so that they don’t look at this stuff online. That is not true. You are unable to attach to someone actively using it. And so if they’re trying to blame you for not attaching or saying, I didn’t feel attached, and so I used pornography. That is a way to manipulate you. This podcast with Gary is super important, and I hope everyone will listen to every word of it. We had some sound problems. So say a little prayer that it won’t bother you too much. ## SHAME & ADDICTION: THE FACTS **Anne:** And say, even though Gary’s microphone wasn’t working well and the connection was bad. Bless that I can hear this and process what he’s saying, that it can help me in my recovery. He taught anatomy and physiology for years and has long been interested in the neurochemistry of addiction, mating, and bonding. The Society for the Advancement of Health presented Wilson with its Media Award for Outstanding Media Contributions and Public Education on Addiction. Welcome, Gary. **Gary:** Hey, it’s great to be here. **Anne:** Okay, Gary, why is this shame causes infidelity and addiction theory so popular right now? **Gary:** Addiction and shame are often intertwined, and that’s a separate issue. So shame might be associated with it’s use, or shame associated with just addiction. I can’t stop drinking alcohol, it’s ruining my life, and I’m in a shame and then binge cycle because I can’t stop. I think when we use the word shame we need to be very specific about what we’re talking about. **Anne:** Is it true? Does shame cause infidelity or addiction? **Gary:** No, shame doesn’t cause addiction. Let’s be real clear about this. ## NEUROLOGICAL STUDIES ON ADDICTION **Gary:** Addiction has been studied for 60 years, and there are thousands and thousands of neurological studies. It started with animals, where they can induce addiction. Animals do not have shame. Then cut the brains open, they look at the brains, they see the brain changes. So thousands and thousands of rats, mice, even monkeys. And then recently starting to look at food addiction in animals. And in the last 20 years, we’ve looked at the brain changes in humans that occur with both drug addiction and behavioral addiction, such as addiction, gambling addiction, food addiction, and internet addiction. These brain changes are pretty consistent. And the brain changes are then mirrored in the behavior. So the behaviors would be something like the compulsion to use, which has a lot of cravings, the inability to control use, you’re just out of control. And continuing to use despite severe negative consequences. These are the behaviors that we associate with an addiction. People and animals mirror the brain changes that occur. So no, does shame cause infidelity or addiction related brain changes? Let’s just get that out of the way. **Anne:** How is shame different than addiction? **Gary:** Well, it’s just an emotion. You can have depression, you can have anxiety, you can feel bad. It’s very common for someone who has an addiction to have shame. In other words, they’re hurting themselves. They’re hurting those around them. They have shame because they won’t control themselves. That’s the shame associated with addiction. And that is separate. It should be kept separate. ## NO, SHAME DOES NOT CAUSE INFIDELITY **Gary:** I monitor these very large forums where we have primarily young men who are quitting online exploitation. One of them is called NoFap, and it has over 300, 000 members. They did a survey. They found that 62 percent of their members who are trying to quit are agnostic or atheist. So, no, does shame cause infidelity or addiction? No, it’s not about shame. **Anne:** Why this is so important to me is because I remember a specific situation. My ex’s behaviors, were escalating out of control. He was becoming more abusive, and his dad came over and they prayed together in our basement. And then his dad left, and then he came up about an hour later. I said, how did it go with your dad? And he was like, fine, then after that prayer, I looked at it for an hour and masturbated. And I sat down on our bed and said three words. “Whoa, that’s bad.” That’s all I said. Because I realized, holy cow, if he prays with his dad. Then immediately looks at it and masturbates, for over an hour, he’s way far gone. After I said those three words, he yelled, stop shaming me. He used it to silence me. [Basically, you can’t say anything to me. You can’t be angry about my use. You need to “support my recovery.” If you don’t support my recovery, then you’re shaming me](https://www.btr.org/cheating-husband-says/ "Basically, you can't say anything to me. You can't be angry about my use. You need to "support my recovery." If you don't support my recovery, then you're shaming me"). So it seems like this shame thing has been taken to this whole different level than ever intended. By addicts to manipulate people, and it’s ticking me off. ## RELIGIOUS PEOPLE & ADDICTION **Anne:** Let’s talk about the myth that religious people are more likely to be pornography addicts than non religious people. Because religious people would feel more shame about infidelity. **Gary:** Well, there’s a couple of reasons it’s floating around. Often what’s cited is this study that found Utah was number one in use. It’s called *Red Lights, Who Buys Online Adult Entertainment*. It wasn’t about its use across all inappropriate media tube sites. It was looking at state by state subscriptions to one site out of thousands of sites. My belief is this researcher looked and looked until he found a particular website whose subscriptions were higher in Utah than any other place. So it was a biased study. And people say, well, look, religious people use more or are more addicted. Well, no they’re not. Probably 25 studies have asked groups of people whether they religious or not. They have found that religious people use it at far lower rates than secular people. So that means that being religious is protective against it’s use and thus protective against addiction, all studies. I’m saying this, all studies that have looked at individuals who check off the box, I’m religious, I’m not religious, all of them find less use among the religious. And what’s interesting: a study looked at some of these three or four studies that look at states. And they say, well, red states, have a higher rate of Google inappropriate media searches. The suggestion in all these studies is that religious people are lying about their use in all these many studies. They looked at it, they found out they weren’t lying. ## STUDIES & THEIR FLAWS In fact, religious people were more likely to tell the truth. So these studies that just looked at how much Google searches there are for inappropriate media in Utah, really do not show good data. They’re not representative, and they should be tossed away. The study said we should stop doing these type of studies. So the bottom line is religious people use it at a far lower rate, which means their addiction is at a far lower rate. **Anne:** Now, I would like to point out that Gary is not religious. **Gary:** Agnostic, yeah. As were my parents and as were my grandparents. **Anne:** Right, so this is not a religious person telling us these studies. This is an agnostic, so they know where you’re coming from, which is what I appreciate about you. Why do you think, at least religious, people in Utah have focused on to this study thing, as the does “shame cause infidelity” proof positive? So everybody’s walking on eggshells to try not to shame other people. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) **Gary:** Yeah, not only Utah, but a lot of the popular media has focused on it, so that means Utah has. And we think of Utah, and we think of course, Latter-day Saints. I have lots of friends who are Latter-day Saints. They tell me shame is associated with it. **Gary:** Joshua Grubbs, a former, a former very religious person, started to do studies. And in these studies, he had a questionnaire. It was a nine question questionnaire. And it was called the *Compulsive Pornography Use Index*. He found, using all nine of his questions, that religious people scored higher on this. So he named his nine questions “Perceived Addiction.” ## DOES SHAME CAUSE INFIDELITY? THE FACTS **Gary:** And then the media took it and said, wow. Religious people believe they’re addicted when they’re not. But then when you look closely at the studies, you find that three of the questions were about shame and guilt. Addiction questionnaires for gambling, alcohol, meth and cocaine do not have questions about feeling guilt or shame after using drugs or nicotine. What it did, when they looked at it closely, and several studies have since looked at it. They found that this particular questionnaire, because it is one third guilt and shame, caused religious people to score higher. So they said, oh, religious people are more addicted. But then when you remove those three questions, and just looked at his other six questions. So the basis of the “does shame cause infidelity” theory was tested. You found that religious people really didn’t score higher. He created a questionnaire that was bogus. I’ve critiqued his work quite a bit and had conversations. He decided to try to disprove what I was saying. So he said, okay, I’m gonna toss out my questionnaire. You say it’s too much guilt and shame. I’m just going to ask a bunch of people. And he did three separate studies. Do you believe you’re addicted to it? That’s what he asked. Just straight up, none of these guilt and shame questions. And guess what he found out? There was no difference between religious people and non religious people believing they were addicted. And guess what he found was the best predictor of believing you’re addicted? How much you use. The more you use, the more you thought you were addicted. **Anne:** Right. ## THE CPUI-9 QUESTIONNAIRE: DOES SHAME CAUSE INFIDELITY? **Gary:** So he basically debunked all his own studies, and he debunked all the other studies that used the same questionnaire. So all this shame being the cause of pornography addiction arises from one place, his nine question questionnaire called the CPUI-9. And then last year he debunked his own questionnaire. **Anne:** Does he admit that now? Does he say, oops? **Gary:** No, he doesn’t say oops directly. He’s still using his questionnaire. And I actually attended a conference a couple of weeks ago, and he admitted there were problems. He said, well a lot of people think there’s problems with this questionnaire, but we use it anyhow. So he keeps using it. They take these steps that aren’t connected and connect them. And then they found, wow, when you remove those three questions from the Grubbs’ questionnaire that are just about shame and guilt. There’s really no connection to religiousness. So again, they keep finding, looking at this questionnaire, that you need to get rid of these three questions that have nothing to do with addiction. They only had to do something with guilt and shame. And all the headlines really fall apart. **Anne:** Right. **Gary:** So it’s a big lie out there. You know, you’ve seen my presentation. It’s just a big lie and it continues. **Anne:** How can we help wives regain their voice after being silenced by the manipulation of a addict who says you can’t do this, or you can’t do that, because if you do, it’s shame. **Gary:** That’s blaming someone else for your own behavior. And that’s just ridiculous, an alcoholic same thing, cigarette smoker, meth user, gambler. ## DEBUNKING MYTHS ABOUT SHAME CAUSING INFIDELITY **Gary:** The shame is internal. It’s an internalized thing of the addict. They have shame because they can’t control use. The addict will feel shame whether the spouse or partner points out they’re using when they said they wouldn’t. And when that person, privately without being discovered, uses without the partner knowing. Shame will occur in those situations. It’s just blaming someone else for your behavior. **Anne:** What I want my listeners to know is that you can tell them how you feel. You can be honest. If they accuse you of shaming them, you can be like, uh, no, I am telling the truth. I am religious. So I would say, no, I’m standing for truth and righteousness. Non religious people might say something like, I have specific needs to feel safe in my own home, and I do not feel safe. Women are terrified to state their needs right now. And I don’t know how to say it. Other than flat out say there is nothing you can say to him that will shame him. He is responsible for his own shame. **Gary:** It’s strange, if we step back a little bit and look at the big picture. I think I’ve also heard that in the past, in “addiction recovery” models, they have suggested to the woman that she not shame the partner, that she take responsibility for her behavior. I completely disagree with that. Why is it that with “addiction” or pornography addiction that we’re so caught up in, oh, we cannot shame the partner? ## EVERY INDIVIDUAL MUST TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR ACTIONS **Gary:** But with gambling addiction, we wouldn’t have that same response. I don’t see that. Or with alcoholism, you don’t see a lot of the, oh, it’s also the partner’s problem. Maybe you do. Maybe there’s this co dependence thing, but I don’t like the co dependence model. **Anne:** No. **Gary:** I don’t like it at all. Every individual must take responsibility for their actions. And that’s my model, and that’s the only model that works. As far as I can see, having monitored these forums where guys are trying to quit for the last 12 years. They take responsibility for their actions. **Anne:** Yeah, you don’t hear people saying, my brother does crack cocaine. I didn’t want to shame him. People are like, crack cocaine is wrong. I’m gonna state it out loud. It’s not a good thing. It’s bad if you do it. There’s not this fear of like, oh, I need to walk on eggshells. Also, in my religion, with drugs or other things, there is accountability. But with online exploitation, there’s this, we don’t want to push him away from the church. We want to keep him in the church, so there’s no accountability. **Gary:** You know, one thing I’d like to point out when we’re talking about shame. Internet exploitation is set up to trap largely males, though females do get trapped. It’s endless novelty, all these women. We have the super normal versions of what we call natural rewards in our face. And my site describes how it can trap men into it. And then the addiction brain changes, and how it’s tough when these brain changes have occurred, like your frontal cortex has changed and it’s hard for you to inhibit behaviors. ## PROJECTING INTERNALIZED STATE OUTWARD **Gary:** What they also need to know is you need to stop using. These things will not go away. You need to have long periods of not using to reverse the brain changes. So I think, in summary, that if you learn about addiction in general, and how super normal versions of natural rewards like junk food or inappropriate media can grab us. Then maybe you can step back and say, okay, well, this is what’s normal. It happened to me. It’s not good. I don’t want it to happen, but I can see why it did. **Anne:** Right. And so that’s my approach. And now, of course, whether you’re Christian or an atheist, these young men are starting at age 12 or younger. So by the time they decide to marry, they’ve been using it for 10 straight years. **Anne:** And I admire the addicts who view it that way. **Gary:** Right. **Anne:** It’s not surprising to me that this happened. Now I need to move forward and become a healthy person. They’re humble, honest, easy to get along with and peaceful people. The addicts who are not in recovery, however, are faking recovery or trying to blame other people. That’s the population that in general my audience is [dealing with every day, all day](https://www.btr.org/treating-body-image-issues-after-betrayal/) long. And so we have to set boundaries around that. So that we can be emotionally and physically safe from an STD or domestic violence. What particular brain changes make addicts more likely to blame their partner? **Gary:** Blame their partner, I don’t think you can put that down to a brain change. I think it’s just I feel bad about myself because I can’t control use, so I’m going to project it outwards. ## THERE IS NO PROOF THAT SHAME CAUSES INFIDELITY IT’S JUST AN EXCUSE **Gary:** I mean, this is the human nature we project our internalized state outward to the world. So the internalized state for an addict is I feel crummy, because number one, I’m using. That makes me feel crummy. Number two, I promise people. And I’m breaking the promise. Number three, I am causing damage to myself, my family, and my job. So I am having a negative effect. Since I don’t want to feel bad about myself, I’m gonna blame you, you’re the closest person to me. **Anne:** You don’t think it has anything to do with their frontal lobe being damaged? Are there any issues with not being able to connect the dots? I noticed when my ex was using, he got dumb. He was totally, completely illogical. **Gary:** That’s true. You’re exactly right. Fifteen studies have found this. The prefrontal cortex, the higher part of our brain, the one that controls impulses. The one that puts the brakes on you, yelling at your spouse or flipping someone off because you’re mad. And plans ahead and sees the consequences of actions, it does become weakened. I won’t use the term damage, but it does become weakened. Yeah, there are about five or six studies that show less cognitive functioning or poorer cognitive functioning in addicts. In essence, they become dumber, and they have a lot harder time controlling their impulses. So yes, You are right, and it’s great you point this out, that would lead to someone wanting to scream at the partner. ## QUITTING BENEFITS CLEAR THINKING **Gary:** And what’s interesting is thousands and thousands of self reports from young men who quit. One of the most common benefits is that they think clearer, their brain fog is gone. Their grades go up. And also what’s interesting and related to this is they can feel much more emotion, so they can have much more empathy. So if you’re lacking empathy, that too would cause you to lash out at someone close to you. **Anne:** You’re lacking empathy, you’re lacking the ability to control your impulses, and your logic isn’t that sound. So you may blame your partner by saying she makes me feel shame. **Gary:** You’re much more hyper reactive to any stress, and again, lashing out. **Anne:** Yeah, it seems like it wouldn’t be that difficult for someone who can’t connect the dots to blame someone else and say, shame causes infidelity? Yes, it’s not my fault. Women are so caught up in finding out how[ to know if their husband has a sex addiction](https://www.btr.org/sex-addiction-therapist-near-me/ " to know if their husband has a sex addiction"). Let’s talk about the myth that addiction is an attachment disorder. **Gary:** I don’t like to label it an attachment disorder. In fact, I don’t like to label any of the addictions an attachment disorder, and there’s a myth out there Johan Hari put out a big TED talk that said, Oh, addiction is an attachment disorder. Again, let’s step back from that. So many addicts and users have wives and spouses, sons and daughters, and family and friends. Yet they continue to use. Then we look at something that is obviously an addiction, smoking. They don’t study smokers and are more sociable, so they don’t have any attachment disorders. But yet they can’t quit despite severe negative consequences. ## WITHDRAWAL SYMPTOMS & STRESS **Gary:** So I don’t even like the idea of it being an attachment disorder. I think that’s too simplistic. **Anne:** I agree. I hate it. That’s why I love you so much. I’m like, thank you, because I’m surrounded by this. Shame causes infidelity and attachment disorder, and all these hand wringing things, and it just makes the wives feel terrible. **Gary:** Oh yeah, and interesting enough, when they stop using, they have withdrawal symptoms. Now, sometimes it’s really bad withdrawal symptoms. Some guys will report even aches and pains, but it’s anxiety, restlessness, depression, brain fog. And so, in order to get over that, they’ll go back and use. So both the lashing out, the inability to adapt to stress, cravings when you have stress, and withdrawal symptoms. These are all coming from one thing, a malfunctioning stress system. And chronic overuse caused that, because it occurs with drug addictions also. **Anne:** Wow, wow, it makes so much more sense. I did not shame him. No, it’s his emotion. I can’t shame him, I was not capable of doing that. It helps me view it for exactly what it is. And I appreciate that. ## ATTACHMENT MODEL DOES NOT CAUSE INFIDELITY EITHER **Gary:** Even though it’s not methamphetamine or cocaine, they’ve done experiments on animals. Certain animals that fall in love with their partner. They’re called voles. So they actually learn the biological neurological mechanisms of falling in love and people by studying voles. What they found is, if you give, voles something that raises dopamine, methamphetamine or cocaine. Well, it raises dopamine as high as possible naturally. And if you become addicted, It blocks the falling in love mechanisms. At least it is shown in animals. Again, we gotta separate the result of chronic online exploitation use. Rather than going back and saying, Oh, they originally had an attachment disorder, and then they became addicted. No, they became addicted, which interferes with attachment. **Anne:** Right, they’re incapable of attachment because they use it. **Gary:** Yes. I’ll use an extreme example, a mother addicted to cocaine. She doesn’t even take care of her baby. You can have milder examples. Look, a pornography addict is willing to ruin their marriage to continue to use it. So it is obviously affects their bonding with both their children and their spouse. **Anne:** Exactly, so women, you don’t need to try “attaching” to an unsafe person. **Gary:** We think about other addictions, the model, of course, is alcoholism. They don’t call that an attachment disorder. They suggest the alcoholic stop using. In fact, when someone who’s not in a relationship goes into AA, they say, don’t get into a relationship for a whole year. You need to focus on your sobriety. ## MEN WHO QUIT SEE THEIR WIVES DIFFERENTLY **Gary:** I monitor many forums, hundreds of thousands of men in relationships. They are quitting. And what they report after 30, 60, 90 days is they see their wife differently. They see their partner differently, they are more in love, they can’t believe they acted the way they did. They just want to shower her with love, finally when they can get it up, it is so much more exciting. They’re thrilled! And their wives are more thrilled, and they feel connected. Did that person have an attachment disorder, or was it interfering with attachment? I think maybe they’re putting the cart before the horse. Yes, the addict may have trouble attaching. Is that because of their years of chronic and continual use of it? I would say yes, because I’ve observed the changes in how men view the women and experience the emotions, once again, of love and attachment after they quit. That needs to be looked at, addressed and acknowledged. **Anne:** Absolutely, their not quitting is the problem. It’s like, oh, I had a relapse every day for seven days. Because I didn’t feel attached to you. But they need to be worthy to attach to! Do you think these therapists are coming up with this attachment stuff, shame stuff, and these people spreading this nonsense are addicts themselves, and they’re just trying to justify stuff and not feel bad? **Gary:** All of us humans, because we’re in the human condition, have problems with relationships. You know, unless we’re enlightened, or Jesus, or in love with everyone, we’re gonna have problems. ## ISSUES WITH THE ATTACHMENT DISORDER MODEL **Gary:** I think it’s misguided to focus on that, as the cause of addiction. If the addict and user stop for a long time, you may see a change in their ability to express emotions. For them to feel love coming back at them from their friends, their kids, and especially their spouse. So I think it might be putting the cart before the horse with the attachment disorder model. **Anne:** It’s not working for women. They’re trying to support their spouse who’s “in recovery.” Their spouse lies straight to their face. Telling them, yes, I’m in recovery. When he’s not really. And he’s not showing these brain changes that you’re talking about, where they can love their spouse more, or they can connect better because they’ve stopped using. They’re not happening. But the guy claims he’s in recovery. “Leave me alone. I’m working on my recovery. You don’t have any right to talk to me about my recovery. They say the shame of talking about it causes infidelity, and that “you work on your side of the street.” That sort of thing. [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) is specifically for wives of users. So that they know exactly what behaviors to look for, to know if they’re safe, rather than just taking the addict’s word for it. While they’re basically just manipulating their wife still and lying. **Gary:** Right, there’s something nasty about addiction. It’s called the abstinent effect. This occurs with people who are religious. They’re using, and then they’ll take a break because they’re white knuckling it, and they’ll take a week off, two weeks off. ## SHAME CANNOT CAUSE INFIDELITY: CAUSE & EFFECT But what’s interesting is when you stop an actual addiction over the next two to three weeks, your brain changes. And it sprouts more connections to make the cravings even more intense. If you are exposed to something that causes cravings. The brain changes about three weeks out. And if you are under stress or exposed to some image. Your cravings are much stronger than they were a couple days after you quit. They might watch it for five hours, and then they feel like crap, and then again they project it out on the world. So there’s often this binge cycle with two to three week gaps, and that actually causes more severe use. So in other words, they need to get further down the line. They need to get 60, 90 days, 120 days away from using. **Anne:** And they need to be honest about where they are too. I think what’s happening right now, at least in my community, is they tell their wife they’re in recovery. Their clergy knows, the family knows, people are talking about it more, and so they know they have to be in recovery. They lie, and they just keep lying. Without the truth, there’s no way for them to get better. They know they’re supposed to be in recovery, and they’re not willing to be honest about their situation in so many cases. **Gary:** Well, that’s just a normal addiction pattern. **Anne:** Yeah, it’s, it’s not your fault, women. It’s not because you asked him to mash the potatoes, cut the tomatoes, nothing to do with shame, how would that cause infidelity? It has nothing to do with any of that. It is all him. ## YOU CAN’T COMPETE WITH SOMETHING THAT’S NOT REAL **Gary:** Well, yes. And there’s this common myth that a wife, if she just gave a guy enough, he would give it up. But that’s not what happens in practice. We see that everywhere. The guy is compulsively addicted to it. Which means he wants to watch it. He wants to click from video to video, and no single female can match the novelty, the variety he sees online. So the woman should never blame herself that she’s not enough. Because no one could ever be a thousand different women in a five hour binge. **Anne:** You can’t compete with it. **Gary:** No, so I think that’s why they turn to love. But if the person continues to use, it’s interfering with the attachment of the addict. So again, it comes back to the responsibility of the addict. **Anne:** It doesn’t matter to us, why? If we try to figure out, is he grumpy because of stress at work or grumpy because of what he uses online? Is it because I shamed him? Is it because he went off his medication? Yeah, to us, the only thing that matters is when that abuse starts, that we set boundaries. Although its hard to [set boundaries with your emotionally abusive husband](https://www.btr.org/boundaries-with-your-emotionally-abusive-husband/ "set boundaries with your emotionally abusive husband"). **Gary:** Yeah. **Anne:** Because if we try to figure out why and try to get him help, you need to go to the therapist. You need to do that. We just. get caught in the abuse cycle. The second that starts happening, it’s the time to detach, take a step back, set the boundaries you need and observe, just observe what they’re going to do from a safe distance. ## DIFFERENT CONSCIOUSNESS FROM ADDICTS & VICTIMS **Gary:** The common knowledge is you can’t fix an addict, it’s always up to the person. **Anne:** Exactly, well you are amazing. Thank you so much. I am so excited to get this out. Yay, it’s my favorite. **Gary:** Just a bit of a backstory. In my life, I of course, besides being non religious, didn’t think much about this kind of stuff and got into this observing. You know, year in and year out guys who are trying to quit. What was interesting about them was that there was no discussion about attachment. There was no discussion about blaming the wife, none of them. Literally hundreds and hundreds of thousands of posts, and none blame the spouse. They’re all like, man, I did this, man, I did this, I’ve got to do X to quit. So it’s a real different consciousness that we’ve observed than what you’re experiencing. **Anne:** I went through years of thinking it was an attachment disorder. Or that I was shaming him into his infidelity and addiction. I was abused because of it. It serves the perpetrators. It’s not a model that protects victims. People also kept telling me to forgive, now I know[ the truth about forgiving abuse](https://www.btr.org/the-truth-about-forgiving-abuse/ "he truth about forgiving abuse"). **Gary:** Well, it’s great that you’re doing this. We’ve had discussions when I was out there of the tremendous need for this because, man, it’s really putting the partners into a bad position. **Gary:** It’s causing PTSD, right? **Anne:** Yeah, and when you go for help to a therapist who doesn’t know what they’re doing, or clergy and you get further traumatized, it’s worse. **Gary:** And clergy everywhere, they just don’t get it, don’t know squat about addiction. **Anne:** Yeah, that’s painfully obvious, it’s bad. Gary, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [How to Deal With Narcissistic Abuse in Marriage - Ingrid's Story](https://www.btr.org/how-to-deal-with-narcissistic-abuse-in-marriage/) **Published:** August 5, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Narcissistic abuse in marriage can make life unbearably lonely. One woman's story. **Content:** If you never thought you’d have to deal with narcissistic abuse in marriage, you’re not alone. To see if you’re experiencing any of the 19 types of emotional abuse you’ll experience from a narcissist, take our [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). If you are experiencing narcissistic emotional abuse, you will need support. For live support, [attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session](https://www.btr.org/group/) today. ## 5 CLEAR SIGNS OF NARCISSISTIC ABUSE IN MARRIAGE ### 1. YOU’RE CONSTANTLY SECOND-GUESSING YOURSELF. Gaslighting makes you doubt your memory, instincts, and even your sanity. You start asking, *“Is it really that bad?”* That’s by design. ### 2. HE MAKES BIG PROMISES – AND NEVER FOLLOWS THROUGH. Future faking sounds like: *“We’ll go to Italy next year”* or *“I’m applying for jobs tomorrow.”* It’s all smoke and mirrors designed to keep you hooked. ### 3. YOU’RE CARRYING THE ENTIRE RELATIONSHIP. If you’re paying the bills, managing the emotions, and making excuses for his behavior—you’re being exploited, not partnered. ### 4. THERAPY MADE THINGS WORSE. Couples therapy often misses narcissistic abuse. When the abuser charms the therapist, you walk away feeling more confused and blamed. ### 5. **YOU THINK CHOOSING YOURSELF IS SELFISH.** Survivors of narcissistic abuse in marriage often struggle with guilt. But choosing you isn’t selfish—it’s survival. And it’s the first step toward freedom. ## TRANSCRIPT: HOW TO DEAL WITH NARCISSISTIC ABUSE IN MARRIAGE **Anne:** I have Ingrid Clayton on today’s episode. She’s a clinical psychologist and trauma therapist in Los Angeles, California, and the author of the memoir, *Believing Me*. Welcome, Ingrid. **Ingrid:** Thank you so much, Anne. So happy to be here. **Anne:** Ingrid, let’s start at the beginning of your story. **Ingrid:** Wow, for me, it goes back to my childhood. So my parents divorced. And my mother rapidly remarried my dad’s best friend. That already sets the stage of the first betrayal. And this man, I can now use this language. This is not language I had for a long time, but he started to groom me. And what I now know set me up to please, appease and do everything I could to keep myself safe in a very unsafe environment. So with my first husband, with so many boyfriends before him. My blueprint was, I will find a way to keep myself safe in an unsafe relationship. So my memoir is about me unpacking decades of that experience. Sort of untangling it as a survivor, but also as a therapist who didn’t know that she had complex trauma. Because as we know. With narcissism, it’s decades of gaslighting and I believed it wasn’t that bad. Maybe it’s me, and if I try a little harder, you know, all those things. **Anne:** So when you say blueprint, you didn’t know that you were continuing to encounter abusive people. What labels did you give them back when you were unaware of the type of character these people had? **Ingrid:** I don’t think I would have used the word abusive, that felt too strong. But I saw there was a pattern, I saw they were dysfunctional relationships. ## PATTERNS OF DYSFUNCTIONAL RELATIONSHIPS **Ingrid:** I went and sat on many therapist couches. And a lot of the language given back to me, things like codependency. I couldn’t see myself in that label, this idea that I was trying to control. There was this lens that felt shameful and stigmatizing, and that also didn’t feel like it helped me. So I kept going and trying. And I thought maybe one day it would shift. Meanwhile, there was just a lot of wreckage, and I didn’t know why. And the narcissistic abuse always presented a little differently. It was active alcoholism, someone who was compulsively cheating on me, exploitation, financially and otherwise. It looked differently in each relationship, but I certainly saw the thread. And it was so painful. So devastating. **Anne:** [This is why you’re not codependent,](https://www.btr.org/therapist-codependency/ "This is why you're not codependent,") you were doing safety seeking behaviors. While you were sitting on those therapy couches, did any of the therapists say the word abuse to you? **Ingrid:** Gosh, it’s a good question. I know none of them used the word trauma, which was the piece that finally became so helpful to me. They may have used the word abuse in relation to my upbringing. So here’s the other part of my story. Growing up, I went to the counselor at my then high school. Eventually, I said, here are all the things happening. I think this is wrong. And she said, “I’m a mandated reporter. And we need to call social services.” So it turned into what was essentially me initiating this intervention on my family. I was about 16 at the time, but if we rewind even further, maybe 12 years old, a friend’s parents had called social services on my behalf. ## INTERVENTION & FAMILY BETRAYAL **Ingrid:** And they orchestrated this sort of secret meeting with me and a social worker. She sat me down with her clipboard, and this seemed like this formal way. And asked me all these questions. She wanted to know where’s the physical abuse. And I was like, I know he’s hit my mom, but I’ve never seen it. I didn’t have the words. I’ve just seen her bruises. I know he’s done this to my brothers, but it wasn’t about physical abuse. And at 12 years old, this woman said to me, emotional abuse isn’t reportable. **Anne:** Wow. **Ingrid:** Okay, so I get to 16 years old, and here we are. I have a counselor who’s taking me seriously, and she’s said, I’m a mandated reporter, we gotta bring social services in here. And what happened then is, they brought my stepdad in and he said, Ingrid, You’re a liar. You made this all up. I have no idea what you’re talking about. This is all a figment of your imagination. And then we turned to my mom, who basically said, I believe him. So this is such a big piece of the trauma landscape, right? There’s the, what happened to us. And then there’s how people responded to what happened to us. In fact, a deeper cut as far as I’m concerned, in my personal experience. I knew what my stepdad was doing was wrong, but I believed the people meant to protect me and help me were going to do that. **Ingrid:** And when they didn’t. Not consciously, but in my body, I started to believe, particularly when my own mother wasn’t able to step in and protect me. ## NARCISSISTIC ABUSE IN MARRIAGE: STRUGGLES WITH SELF-WORTH **Ingrid:** I must not be worthy of protection, love, safety, so it’s this additional layer to what informed me going out into the world. I wasn’t experiencing physical abuse in any of my relationships. So it’s not like I went to a therapist and said, Oh, you know, here’s my experience. And they were trying to reflect that back to me as abusive. I was talking about cheating or unavailability, but I don’t think they were using that language. **Anne:** They discounted you to the point where you thought you were not worthy of protection. But was there also a part of you that thought, maybe this isn’t abuse? Not understanding what narcissistic abuse in relationships is made it hard to identify. Like, maybe I’m making a mountain out of a molehill, or maybe I’m crazy, or maybe this is my fault? **Ingrid:** I would say both things became true. This is where I picked up on those story lines, and I wasn’t sure. I never thought I made it all up. So it’s not like I thought I was a liar. I knew what happened, but I did wonder, and this is so classic for complex trauma survivors, was it that bad? Like we all walk around with this trauma measuring stick. I can think of someone else who had it worse. So suddenly mine doesn’t really count. The thing that we know about trauma is that it’s not even about the traumatic event. It’s how the traumatic event overwhelmed your nervous system. So this whole idea about a measuring stick related to the event is just ludicrous anyway. But honestly, I wasn’t the only one carrying that measuring stick around. I think therapists in the mental health field carried it similarly for many years. ## THE JOURNEY TO SELF-DISCOVERY **Ingrid:** You know, trauma was related to acute single events. It was related to veterans, which meant it was largely related to men. I’m 50 years old now. So I grew up when we didn’t have as much information. And consequently, even my own training as a clinical psychologist. I mean, I’ve been practicing in the field for almost two decades, and that didn’t give me the lens and language either for trauma from narcissistic abuse. And the story of my memoir is that I have to become my own trauma therapist. And I’m just sitting at my kitchen table, writing these stories, reclaiming them again. So that I could look on the page and see for myself, this was narcissistic abuse. I didn’t have that lens or language either. I’m so grateful that I received this call to write in this fast and furious way that wouldn’t let me go no matter how much I tried. I also think it’s the most heartbreaking thing. I’ve been asking for help since I was a little girl, and I had to wrestle it for myself all alone at my kitchen table. **Anne:** All of my listeners would relate. Every one of them, because they didn’t know they were [surviving narcissistic abuse](https://www.btr.org/surviving-narcissistic-abuse/ "surviving narcissistic abuse") in their marriage. They did what they were supposed to do and resisted oppression. They were resisting the abuse. And they didn’t know that’s what they were resisting, but so they went for help, right? They went to clergy. They went to their therapist, and it wasn’t named trauma. ## MISGUIDED THERAPY APPROACHES **Anne:** Instead, maybe in couple therapy, for example, they’re told, okay, let’s improve your communication strategies. Let’s figure out how to … **Ingrid:** Knit this relationship back together, I think that’s unfortunate. A couple comes to them and they’re saying, we’re having difficulty. There’s this idea in couples therapy. Obviously they’re coming, because they want to work on the relationship. They probably believe it’s salvageable. And as an individual therapist, I had to call my client’s couples therapist. Do not mistake her boyfriend’s ability to charm you in session for this being a repairable, healthy, relationship. **Anne:** The victim does not know that she’s a victim of narcissistic abuse. **Ingrid:** That’s right. **Anne:** And the perpetrator is never going to be like, hey, I’m a perpetrator. **Ingrid:** I’m the problem, yeah. **Anne:** He’s never going to say that. **Ingrid:** That’s right. Yeah, it’s a painful reality that we ask for help and the help is not helpful. Oftentimes it’s even more harmful. **Anne:** Yeah, it’s really hard. So let’s talk about your relationship before you understood it was abuse, what did you think was going on? **Ingrid:** I want to start by saying that I felt like marriage was the thing that would give me the stamp of approval that would finally make me okay. So if I wasn’t chosen by my parents, I had this deep need to be chosen by somebody else. It’s another aspect of the blinders I had on. ## NOT KNOWING THE RED FLAGS OF NARCISSISTIC ABUSE IN MARRIAGE **Ingrid:** And so when I met my ex-husband, there were signs. You know, what other people would call red flags. So I saw these things, but simultaneously did not see them. So I was racing towards this finish line of wanting and needing to be married. **Anne:** You mentioned that desire to belong. Was it also external? Did you grow up in a religious setting where marriage was part of the equation to happiness did that idea of marriage also come from an external source? **Ingrid:** Yeah, I mean, look at every movie and TV commercial, right, it’s everything I grew up with and experienced. This even going to graduate school as a woman and getting my PhD. You would talk to people, and you would tell them about your studies, and they would be like, Oh, so tell me about your relationship status. It didn’t matter what else I was doing. I felt like I was still sitting at the kid’s table, the kid’s table of Thanksgiving, until I was partnered up. So it was a million subtle cues from the larger environment that, of course, impacted what was also this internal trauma response, right? Like this need, this drive to be validated, and it attached itself to this idea of marriage. And actually when we got engaged, my ex-husband wanted to be an actor, and he wasn’t working. And we entered into this arrangement of living together. It was like suddenly he just started pulling back more and more. Where it’s like he’s not contributing to our overhead. But the mask he continued to wear more overtly was, we are the happiest loving couple ever. People see our energy, and they’re so jealous of our love. ## GRADUATE SCHOOL & FINANCIAL EXPLOITATION **Ingrid:** Right, this sort of love bombing slash sort of future faking. Like it’s gonna be so amazing. So the overt mask was still we’re incredible. But simultaneously, he starts not contributing to our bills. And I’m saying like, what would you do if you were living alone? You know, wouldn’t you feel like you had to be responsible for yourself? Because at the time I’m in graduate school, I’m living on student loans. I certainly wasn’t taking out student loans to support another person who just stopped working. So I would bring these things up in this very sort of neutral way. Hey, you know, I see this happening. And if he didn’t immediately like agree or change. It was like, okay, I brought it up. He says he wants to work. He says he’s trying, so I guess that has to be enough. So I just start to swallow it down and accommodate what is his really financial exploitation. You know, fast forward to where we got engaged. And he proposed with this little silver, um, like a dime store ring as like a placeholder for an engagement ring. And we went shopping for an engagement ring, and we get to the counter and see this one, and isn’t it amazing, right? Like, I feel like I’m living in this, uh, jewelry commercial, you know, it’s like, here it is. Is this the one? He turns to me in front of the salesperson and says, if you put it on your credit card, I’ll make all the payments. And I was devastated. And embarrassed. I thought, what does even the salesperson think of me right now? A, that I’m being put in this position, and B, I’m about to hand over my credit card. ## DISCOVERING THE TRUTH **Ingrid:** And I know that in my body, it’s like, no one can ever know. So that’s part of what allowed me to know there was abuse. My ex-husband pretended he wasn’t pretending. That’s like our whole relationship, I was like, okay, I’m going to hand over my credit card. And of course he never made a payment. We never brought it up again. Eventually, I came to see that he was probably drinking and smoking pot all day in our apartment when I was off at work. And I am a recovering alcoholic. I almost have 30 years of sobriety now. I forget what it was then, but I had a lot of time under my belt. So I know alcoholism, right? I grew up also with addiction. And I knew that I was uncomfortable with some of his drinking. I literally didn’t know that he was using to the extent he was. So just all the secrecy, the lies, and the layers of deceit, it just started to pile up. Until it was only a year into marriage. I’d never had this conscious thought before, but suddenly I knew I had to open the hall closet. And open the hall closet door. I saw a suitcase tucked behind like boots and all kinds of things. Again, never a conscious thought, but my body knew you got to open the closet. Drag that suitcase out from the back, open it up, and there were all the vodka bottles. So, I finally had this evidence, this, oh my gosh, this is part of what’s going on. I Even if I didn’t have a label, I knew what narcissistic abuse in my marriage looked like. ## CHOOSING SELF OVER AN ABUSIVE NARCISSISTIC RELATIONSHIP **Ingrid:** And it wasn’t something he could talk me out of. Like, oh yeah, I’m trying to work, and oh, I’m getting a job tomorrow, whatever it was. It was like, I had this concrete thing, and eventually it was part of what enabled me to say, I can’t do this. And in a strange way, I look at divorce as probably the beginning of the healing of my complex trauma. Instead of waiting and hoping for someone to choose me. And I did it with the marriage, but then I was like, he’s going to choose me again by getting a job, right? Like, he’s going to choose me again by quitting drinking, right? He wants to get sober. He wants to live this life that he’s been promising me. Like he talked the best game ever. I believed those words. And so I thought, doesn’t he believe them too? Like he will show up for that. And finally I said, I can’t keep waiting for someone else to choose me. I have to do it even though no one else ever did. **Anne:** You chose you. You started learning [how to heal from a divorce you didn’t want](https://www.btr.org/treatment-for-divorce/ "healing from a divorce you didn't want"). **Ingrid:** I had to choose me, and that’s what I did in my divorce, and that puts a nice bow on it, which is a true one. I believe I got so much freedom through walking away. But it’s not to say it wasn’t excruciating, because simultaneously, I believed in my then late 30s that I blew it. This was my one chance to have a family, the thing I always wanted. It seemed like instead of getting that stamp of approval, I was wearing the scarlet letter, the thing that said, damaged goods. ## RESISTING ABUSE **Ingrid:** What I had to wade through in terms of that pain and shame was enormous, and yet it was one of the first things that really freed me from narcissistic abuse. **Anne:** Yeah, we heal so much through choosing ourselves. Around here, at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, I just call it resisting. Because you were thinking, if I do what he says, I don’t want to do this. But if I agree, if I hand over my credit card right now, maybe it will make it better. This is the only thing to do to get out of the situation in that moment. It is a form of resistance, because you’re thinking, this is what I need to do to get this over with. Or, this is how I work through this. Because we don’t have a framework for, Oh, I just walk out of the jewelry store. No one’s given us that framework for a solution. Because that doesn’t feel safe either. Because he might get angry, there might be all sorts of other consequences. **Ingrid:** That’s right. **Anne:** So it’s a way to resist abuse. Understanding that victims are doing the best they can with what they have. And also with the level of education about abuse they have at the time. **Ingrid:** Yeah, these aren’t conscious at all. It’s the body’s instinctual response to safety. It’s the last house on the block. Because if you can’t fight back, if you can’t run, guess what? Appeasing and pleasing is resistance, it is an adaptive response. To be in, and listen, it’s not just abusive, any marginalized community, any sort of power structure where someone has power over you. It’s a highly adaptive response to narcissistic abuse in a marriage. ## RECLAIMING SELF-WORTH **Ingrid:** I am a smart person, right? I asked for help, so the other reason I think it’s important for me to address it as a trauma response. Because what that means in terms of my healing is the nervous system. It’s not going and sitting on a couch and talking about it forever. That in fact kept me stuck. It’s working with a part of the brain that was offline. We need to work with solutions that work with the body when it comes to trauma. It’s why actually I don’t like the words, people pleasing or control. My motivations were never to please, and they were never to control. **Anne:** Exactly. **Ingrid:** I was trying to stay safe in an unsafe situation. I was trying to survive. Of course, boundaries made sense intellectually. Of course, I can understand those things. They were not available in my body. It’s another layer of gaslighting essentially because it’s telling me, oh, it’s so easy and what’s the big deal? And it must be you. It must be you. This idea that we are intrinsically broken, and I believe we are beyond not broken. It’s a genius adaptation. I look at the ways we have threaded the needle of safety in the trickiest of environments. And I go, that is brilliant. There’s a literal brilliance to it. And so my hope is that we can take back the brilliance and genius adaptation and hold onto that. Even as I say those words, I feel like self-esteem is rushing into my body. Narcissistic abuse in marriage robs you of so much. I go, I am not broken. I am brilliant. And I don’t want to live in a chronic trauma response anymore. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## SIGN OF NARCISSISTIC ABUSE: FUTURE FAKING IN RELATIONSHIPS **Ingrid:** We are meant to have more freedom and flexibility. So we have to start with taking the shame and stigma out of experiences where we’re literally just surviving. The environments in which we live. **Anne:** And for that reason, I like saying resisting because you were doing something active to protect yourself. It was the best thing you knew at the time. You were doing it instinctively. Think about how smart and powerful, and how awesome you’ve always been. You mentioned future faking. I realized I’ve never done an episode about future faking or gone into depth about it. Can we go there for a second? **Ingrid:** The way I experienced it. Despite my ex-husband’s literal inability to show up for this life, he talked such a good game. Like, you want to go to Italy, we’re going to go to Italy. Let’s start saving for Italy now, he said. Let’s open a savings account where we just put money in for this trip to Italy. And I’m like another form of financial exploitation. But it’s also an aspect of this future faking. We’re going to do all these amazing things. It’s presenting your hopes and dreams and literally saying it out loud. It feels so tangible. Someone to meet us, validate us, to say, yes, we’re going to do this together. It’s so compelling. It was to me. And even though he didn’t bring much to the marriage, it hooked me. It’s another aspect of sometimes hoovering even, right? Of saying all the things you want to hear to get you back into the relationship. ## BREAKING FREE FROM EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Ingrid:** It’s going to be different. I’m doing all these things. And he did that too, like I’m going to get sober. And I went to a meeting. I went and took an application. And they were one-time events that he did just enough to show me. Similar to opening the savings account. It’s I’m going to tell you, in fact, that you can expect all these things to happen. And then I’m not going to do anything other than this little thing to get you to change your mind. **Anne:** Abusers are transactional. Like a machine, and their words are like quarters. So he thinks all I need to do is put this quarter in. I say, Hey, let’s go to Italy. That’s a tactic of narcissistic abuse. I put this in, and then beep boop out comes what I want her to do. They don’t see us as human people. More of this is a transaction, and I say this, and I get this back. **Ingrid:** I would even say calling it a quarter is giving it too much credit. I mean, it’s like a wooden nickel. It’s all smoke and mirrors. It’s part of what also creates, you know, the fog of emotional abuse. You can’t tell what’s real. I had to stop listening to what my stepdad said happened, what my mom wanted to believe happened, what my ex husband said he was doing or going to do. Almost at any cost, I had to prioritize my own experience, my own feelings over anybody else. **Anne:** You’re very brave. You did it! **Ingrid:** Yeah, I feel like my whole life has been trying to wrestle me back. And I’m mostly just grateful that I don’t live there now. ## FINDING A HEALTHY RELATIONSHIP **Ingrid:** I don’t question my worth. I question my sanity. I know what I know. And I know what a reciprocal relationship feels like. I have a husband who has never lied to me. And you talk to people who don’t have experience of abuse. And they’re like, that’s just normal. Of course, you should expect that, and guess what? I never had a relationship where I could say that before. I never knew what that felt like in my body. In my first marriage, the closer we got to the altar, the more I was like, I don’t know that I’m doing the right thing. And then I could lean on, this is what happens, it’s cold feet. I look back and I go, that was not cold feet, that was wisdom bubbling up to the surface. And I don’t know that every “healthy marriage” isn’t hard. But I can tell you the contrast is remarkable in my personal experience, it’s night and day. And I will also say the difference in how it felt when we met was remarkably different. I was so used to the feeling of someone having power over me. And I think this is common. We can mistake that unsettled feeling of nervous system dysregulation for butterflies. It’s so exciting, right? I genuinely thought that was healthy chemistry. I was like, Oh, I got that feeling. Now I know that’s a dysregulated nervous system. So when I met my now husband, who was so kind, I felt so at ease in his presence. I walked away and I was like, he would probably be a great friend. And I just assumed there would be nothing romantic. Because I didn’t have that old like fireworks, crazy chaos thing. ## MARRIAGE ISN’T SUPPOSED TO BE HARD: NAVIGATING CHALLENGES TOGETHER WITHOUT ABUSE **Ingrid:** And over time. I got to see, this is what it feels like to be seen and respected. And to not feel like someone has power over me. But that we’re literally building something together. And it’s what it’s felt like this entire time. I will say that does not mean there haven’t been hard times. We became parents, and parenting brings up all kinds of stuff. Like, how will we pay that bill or navigate these different things? It’s going to kick some dust up, life is still in session. But he’s my person that I can turn to when the dust gets kicked up. He’s not kicking the dust up in my face and going, what’s the matter with you? So we go through the hard times together, even when that means maybe I’m triggered and dysregulated. And I’m having a hard time. And he can say a genuine, can you take care of yourself? Like, because I’m going to take care of myself and come back. And then we’re going to have a conversation where I’m in my right mind. **Anne:** But at no point, I’m guessing, during that time, did he suggest you were crazy. **Ingrid:** Never, no, of course not. Yeah, very different. ## THE BETRAYAL TRAUMA RECOVERY LIVING FREE WORKSHOP **Anne:** I talk so much about the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). You can get more information by clicking the link. Living Free is designed to help you regulate your nervous system through thought strategies.So that you can actually implement communication and boundary strategies to protect yourself. And that piece of the puzzle is so important. The workshop helps teach women those strategies, and then our coaches help women actually implement them. **Ingrid:** A hundred percent, it’s a process, and it’s not always graceful. It’s not always linear. But if you are engaged in it, that is the bravest, hardest, but also most rewarding thing we can ever do. It’s worth it. **Anne:** It’s worth it, and you’re worth it. Thank you so much, Ingrid, for spending the time to talk with me today. **Ingrid:** My pleasure. Thank you so much. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast **Tags:** emotional abuse --- ### [What Does Jesus Say About Abuse? Points from the Bible](https://www.btr.org/what-does-jesus-say-about-abuse/) **Published:** August 12, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Women often carry the burden of being the peacemaker. But what does Jesus say about abuse? **Content:** In the face of emotional and psychological abuse, women often carry the burden of being the peacemaker. But what does Jesus say about abuse? Matthew 5:25 is often quoted to manipulate women. But here’s what Jesus is really saying. To see if you’re experiencing any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take our [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ![Jesus Teachings on Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Jesus-Teachings-On-Abuse.webp "Jesus Teachings on Abuse")## WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT PEOPLE WHO ARE ABUSED? Let’s take Matthew 5:25 – What does Jesus say about abuse? Jesus says, “Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.” If your husband is emotionally and psychologically abusive, rather than engage with the abuser, you can quickly and passively agree (if it’s safe to do so). Anne shares an example on the podcast: > “You can be a peacemaker *and* you can be safe with the strategy of agreement. Here are some examples. Let’s say your husband says something like, ‘Well, you don’t respect me and you never listen to me.’ > > Rather than diving into an argument or pulling out all the times where you did listen to him and how you do respect him, because you always ask his opinion before you spend more than $50 and all the reasons why you are a good person. You can say, ‘*oh, that’s interesting; I haven’t thought of that.*‘” ![Jesus Scriptures on Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Jesus-Scriptures-On-Abuse.webp "Jesus Scriptures on Abuse")## HOW TO AGREE WITH THE ABUSER 101 Best practice is to appear disinterested and apathetic. The abuser wants to create chaos. We want you to create distance between yourself and the abuse so that you can create safety for yourself. Here are some phrases (along with a disinterested, apathetic impression) to use when you’re “agreeing quickly” with the abuser: - Huh, that’s interesting. I’ll look into it. - I hadn’t really given that much thought – thanks. - That may be true. - Fair enough. - Very interesting. I appreciate your thought. - I will definitely give that more thought. - That may be valid. - All opinions are generally worth consideration. - I will consider that. - Yeah, you may be right. ![Does Jesus Teach About Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Does-Jesus-Teach-About-Abuse.webp "Does Jesus Teach About Abuse")## APATHETIC AGREEMENT QUASHES CHAOTIC ARGUMENTS Your apathetic, disinterested “agreement” is a great way to quash his attempts at arguing with you. The word salad, gaslighting, intimidation, and other abusive tactics that come up when abusers “argue” with victims can be extremely damaging. A quick, apathetic agreement is a great way to “douse the fire” and create an opportunity for you to get a safe distance from the abuser. > “I’m not mad or upset; there’s no fight. They love a fight, and they also love it when you do what they want. So they’re trying to manipulate you into doing what they want you to do. But if you’re not going to do that, then they will enjoy the chaos of an argument.” > > *Anne Blythe, founder of BTR.ORG* ## BTR.ORG IS HERE FOR YOU [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/ "The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop") has many more of these strategies. You don’t have to do this alone. Consider attending a [BTR.ORG Group Session](https://www.btr.org/group/) today. ![Jesus Words on Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Jesus-Words-On-Abuse.webp "Jesus Words on Abuse")## TRANSCRIPT: WHAT DOES JESUS SAY ABOUT ABUSE? **Anne:** It’s just me today. Even though this podcast is interfaith and inter-paradigm, many of you who listen are Christian. If you are not Christian, this episode will still help you, and these principles will apply. Yes, it is what does Jesus say about abuse, but it’s also one of the strategies from the Living Free Workshop, and I’m going to go into detail about it. In the Living Free Workshop, it is all secular. It’s just the strategies themselves, without any background information about how I discovered it. So what does Jesus say about abuse? [What does the Bible say about divorce?](https://www.btr.org/what-does-the-bible-say-about-divorce/ "What does the Bible say about divorce?")We’re going to look at some scriptures that abusers have used to spiritually abuse victims, so that they can exploit them. The first one is Matthew 5:25. It’s part of the Sermon on the Mount. And Jesus says, “Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou are in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee unto the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.” In the scripture, he’s talking about someone who wants to do you harm. They want to imprison you. When it comes to abusers, they want to oppress you, and they’re going to say things to manipulate you. So Jesus says we should agree quickly with our adversary, and this is the best way to deal with a dangerous person in a strategic way. So here’s an example of agreeing quickly with an adversary, and how it can protect you. ![What Does Jesus Teach About Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-Does-Jesus-Teach-About-Abuse.webp "What Does Jesus Teach About Abuse")## REAL-LIFE EXAMPLE: SINGLES EVENT **Anne:** I was at a singles event and there was a man who wanted me to talk to him. I was not into it because he was like, 30 years older than me, and no. And as I was like, brushing him off, he said, “You really push men away. Men aren’t going to like that.” And I remembered what Jesus said about agreeing quickly with my adversary. So I said, “Yeah. cool.” Basically, like, yeah, I do push men away, great. Instead of doing what he wanted me to do, which was stop and say, oh, of course I don’t want to push men away, I will talk to you because I’m polite. I was like, yeah, I push men away, mission accomplished. ## WHAT DOES JESUS SAY ABOUT ABUSE? APPLYING THE STRATEGY IN MARRIAGE **Anne:** When it’s a husband, he’s going to say things like, you don’t care. You don’t love me, you won’t meet my needs, you don’t respect me. You don’t respect me is the most common abuser statement there is. Instead of trying to prove that you do respect him, or explain to him why you don’t respect him. Think about this strategy that Christ taught us. Jesus says about abusers to Agree quickly with an adversary. You could say, oh yeah, maybe I don’t. And then you always need to follow up with an exit strategy. That’s the quickly part. You agree immediately, and then exit. So with the man at the singles event, I said, “Oh yeah, I do push men away, cool.” And I walked off. With your husband, the quickly part would be like, I have to fold the laundry. We can talk about it later. And the strategic thing. Don’t ever talk about it later. Don’t bring it up. ![Is It Safe To Confront Someone Who Is Emotionally Abusive?](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/txDvx6YrT6w/maxresdefault.jpg) In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus says, “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God.” Now, it’s impossible to have peace when someone is trying to oppress you and they are legit trying to distress you. That is their goal. They’re going to cause problems no matter what. So Jesus says, one strategic way to protect ourselves is to agree with them. Do it with an apathetic, disinterested stance toward them. Abusers want one of two things. They either want to exploit us, so they want us to do what they want, to our detriment. And if they can’t get that, a juicy fight will do. They enjoy our distress. So when we won’t do what they want, we also don’t engage in an argument or conversation about it. ## STRATEGIC RESPONSES TO MANIPULATION **Anne:** Give them the impression that they can’t get our attention. That’s one way to protect ourselves. With the man at the singles event, after I said what I said, I walked off in peace. Here are some examples: Your husband says something like, you don’t respect me and you never listen to me. Rather than proving to him how you listen to him saying things like, what are you talking about? I always ask your opinion before I spend more than $50. What are you talking about? I double checked with you before I did this thing, instead of doing that. A Jesus approved strategic response might be something like, I hadn’t thought about that. Oh, I told Betsy that I’d go visit her. I’ve got to go to the neighbor’s. I’ll be back in about an hour. A distracted, I’m busy doing something else is the strategic way to separate yourself from that type of emotional and psychological abuse. Remember he wants the chaos, to drum it up. There are many ways they are [examples of misogyny](/examples-of-misogyny/). [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) Here’s another example of [how to set boundaries with your husband](https://www.btr.org/how-to-set-boundaries-with-my-husband/ "how to set boundareis with your husband"). Let’s say he uses your own values to trap you into exploitation. He might say, if you cared about our family, you would, and then state what he’s trying to manipulate you to do. Here is the agree with an adversary quickly version of a response. ## LIVING WITH AN ABUSER: WHAT DOES JESUS SAY ABOUT ABUSE? FIREPROOF SUIT **Anne:** I’m going to go wash the car. I’ll be back when I’m done with my errands. Can I pick anything up for you at the store while I’m out? No matter what, they are on fire, and you can’t do anything to put the fire out, unfortunately. But this is to protect yourself as much as possible. If you’re living with the abuser, this is like putting on a fireproof suit. Now, I found that not being able to just be myself felt very suffocating and exhausting, and I did not want to live with a fireproof suit on all the time. So I ended up escalating my boundaries. The [Bible also says a lot about boundaries in marriage](https://www.btr.org/what-does-the-bible-say-about-boundaries-in-marriage/ "Bible also says a lot about boundaries in marriage"). Some of you might feel that wearing this fireproof suit is your safest option. Whatever you choose is the right thing for you. But this strategy can be applied whether you’re married and still living in the home. Or separating or divorced with any type of unsafe person when they’re trying to get power over you. It’s a good strategy to use to protect yourself. Jesus says about abusers to agree quickly with our adversary, or to be a peacemaker for our own safety. It’s not to benefit him whatsoever. You don’t have to actually agree with him to agree with an adversary. This, oh, I need to think about that, hmm, you have a point. Will give you enough space to determine what level of safety you actually have. Then you can evolve and try again, just like the Living Free Strategies teach. The workshop includes amazing meditations, here’s a [free betrayal trauma meditation](/free-betrayal-trauma-meditation/) for you to try. ## LIVING FREE WORKSHOP PRINCIPLES **Anne:** Those who have enrolled in the [Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) will know exactly what I’m talking about, because this is one of the principles in there. Again, in the Living Free Workshop itself, I don’t teach this with scriptures. It’s in a completely secular context. There is like an appendix at the back, if you’re interested in my personal scripture study and where I came up with some of these strategies based on what Jesus said about abuse. I wanted to hit on that strategy. I’d love to know what you think about it. You can scroll to the bottom, I’d love to hear your comments. Let me know what you think. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast **Tags:** emotional abuse, Trauma Workshops --- ### [My Husband Is Paranoid & Angry - Louise's Story](https://www.btr.org/my-husband-is-paranoid-and-angry/) **Published:** August 19, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** If you're noticing your husband seems delusional and irritable, here's what you need to know. **Content:** If you’re thinking, “My husband is paranoid and angry,” this interview will help you sort out what’s really going on. It’s likely that you’re experiencing emotional abuse. To find out, take our [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ## TRANSCRIPT: MY HUSBAND IS PARANOID AND ANGRY **Anne:** I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Louise. She’s here to share her story. So many women share a similar story. They talk about how their husband is paranoid and angry. One of the reasons women think their husband is paranoid and angry is because they don’t realize he’s lying. So when he says things like, you’re trying to control me, you don’t respect me, nobody respects me. Women take it at face value, they don’t realize he is lying. And so he sounds paranoid. And maybe he is, or maybe it’s just manipulation. Louise, Welcome. let’s start with your story. **Louise:** Thank you, we married at 19, and we knew each other all our life. I noticed he was mean to his sister, and I talked him out of that. So I thought he’d learned his lesson. I mean, the stories are all the same, but talking at me in the evenings in bed. And sometimes in the day for hours on end. Always disagreeing until I cried, and it took me years to figure that out. We were raised in that patriarchy setting. Where women just didn’t have a say, right? In the Mennonite church, and then we went into the Bill Gothard stuff. And I wanted to be the perfect wife and mother. And, and the way to do that was to be totally submissive and obedient. So then he was always saying, “But you’re not obeying me.” And when I did, he would, in front of the children, say, but I told you different. **Anne:** Wow, [fundamentalism and patriarchy fuel abuse](https://www.btr.org/fundamentalism-and-patriarchy-fuel-abuse/). And so he would move the goalposts? **Louise:** Basically, that crazy making, right? ## EARLY MARRIAGE & PATRIARCHAL CHALLENGES **Louise:** We were married in 1972, and in those days, there was no information, there was no internet. We had seven biological children and three from an orphanage in Haiti. That was a difficult time. I went to the library one day, and there a little book caught my attention, called *Men Who Hate Women*. That was the beginning of my education. **Anne:** Before you found the book, what did you think was going on? Can you talk about your feelings at that time? **Louise:** I felt like I was never good enough. Why is he always paranoid and angry? And I thought if I was good enough, maybe something would work out. Or if we could get counseling, you know, the old story. **Anne:** You didn’t just think that, by the way. He was actually telling you that. He said to you, the problem is you. If you would cook better, if you would do this better, if you would serve me more, then it would solve our problems. Which kept you in this hamster wheel. Your husband manipulated you to think that. He wanted you to think that. **Louise:** And when he sensed that I thought that, then of course he used that, right? And pastors were no help, they said the same thing. And the teaching we had from Bill Gothard was that, as long as everybody was obedient to whoever was above them. That umbrella scheme, then everything would work out, right? A person is attracted to the promises that if you do this, everything will come out right. **Anne:** Exactly. [This is one of the signs of spiritual abuse](https://www.btr.org/signs-of-spiritual-abuse/ "This is one of the signs of spiritual abuse."). ## MANIPULATING & COUNSELING STRUGGLES **Louise:** I opened up this book in the library, and found a list. If your husband does six of these 20 things, then he is abusing you. And I got to number 11 or 12, and I slammed it shut. Because you don’t want to hear that, then what do you do? That’s the end of your life. And I snuck it home and read it, but there were no answers in it either. They didn’t have any answers, just explanations. And yeah, you’re supposed to be strong. But when you’re raised to think you’re not strong, and that you don’t have a say, then you can’t be strong. And then the next thing was my sister gave me the *Boundaries Teachings*. And that was a shock, that I was actually allowed to say no to anybody in this world. So I listened to that over and over. And very slowly, started to do that. And finally, one day, I prayed, and I read 1 Peter 3 and 4, and I read it several times. I thought, Okay, God, what do you want me to learn from this? And a light went on. This is not a formula, but this is what I feel I was told. And so I went to him, and I said, I think God told me you can have all the sex you want. And he goes, oh, and I said, but you have to choose. There are two types of relationship. There’s a master slave, and there’s Christ’s church, and you have to choose which one. If it’s a master slave, you command me to do, and I’ll just let you. ## MY HUSBAND IS PARANOID AND ANGRY: LIVING WITH THE CONSEQUENCES **Louise:** And if it’s Christ’s church, you have to win me back, because you have lost my affection. Both options require humbling yourself, right? That’s not gonna happen. And first he yelled at me and said, “You’re my wife, you’re supposed to obey me. I command you to feel affection for me right now.” We slept in the same bed for three more years and never had it again. Because he couldn’t admit he wanted a slave, and he couldn’t humble himself to be Christ like. On the other hand, this gave him a lot of fuel with counselors. She hasn’t let me touch her in three years, right? I know he masturbated about four times a day. He did admit it , and then I figured out why I was finding him sleeping in the hay all the time, because he tired himself out with it. **Anne:** Wow. **Louise:** If he had magazines, I have no idea, because I didn’t think of it. I mean, we were married 25 years. And I only found some of this out right at the end. It didn’t cross my Mennonite mind, you know. So that was all that was on his mind. If I ever smiled at him, he would come rushing over and say, “You want it? You smiled at me.” That’s all that was on his mind. He was in fantasyland. And if I tried to talk to him, I interrupted the fantasy, and he would be angry. He was paranoid and angry all the time. When I blew up once in a while, he accused me of being too angry and having to protect the children from me. ## SEEKING HELP & FACING MORE ABUSE **Louise:** He would talk at me for hours and hours, just in circles, the crazy making thing. And I cried out to God, I said, God, what should I do? I actually heard the words shut up, in a nice way. And I said, what? It was like this never goes anywhere. Stop engaging in these conversations. So I did. And then he would tell counselors, she won’t talk to me, and if only she would communicate with me, we would be fine. And they would agree with him. Then I started writing things down, and when he caught me, he says, “You shouldn’t keep a record of wrongs, that was evil.” He was so paranoid. And we flew all the way to Minneapolis to this well known, good counselor. And I showed him my notes, he read them that evening, and the next day he said, “If this is true, we have a big problem.” Then he sent me out, he took my husband in, an hour later he brought me in, and he says, Your husband reassured me that you made all this up. **Anne:** What? **Louise:** Yeah, it was a Christian counselor. He and his buddy had written some books. I forget what they were called, and I don’t remember his name either. **Anne:** Wow, wow. **Louise:** Another time, my sister took me to her counselor in Vancouver. I told him one or two sentences of what was going on. And then he perfectly got it, and he said there’s only one thing you can do, and that’s an intervention. Get his friends together to intervene, and tell him he’s got to stop this behavior. Or else they’re going to help you get away. ## PSYCH WARD & SEPARATION **Louise:** So I called my friends and they agreed to do that. And then they picked me up from my sister. And when I got to their place, they had called him to come get me, because I was all mixed up in the head. **Anne:** Oh, so they turned on you. **Louise:** So finally toward the end, we went to Elijah House in Washington. It was Christian counseling, they do prayer counseling. Throughout the counseling, they asked God, what’s going on here? And they figured it out, they said it was abuse. But he said it didn’t work. He said to me, don’t you know you’re always wrong? And when I told him I wasn’t going to talk all night. I said, if you can make me cry in five minutes, then you’ll suddenly see my point. And if it takes five hours, and he says, “Oh don’t you know that if I can make you sick or cry that makes a man out of me? **Anne:** Wow. **Louise:** It was shortly after that when I checked myself into the psych ward, because I just felt like I couldn’t take it anymore. And there was a counselor there, a psychologist, who talked to both of us and said, See, you just have to communicate with him. But the doctor in charge came to me on the third day and said, “Listen, the nurses tell me you don’t belong here.” ## DIVORCING A HUSBAND WHO IS PARANOID AND ANGRY **Louise:** What is really going on? And so I told him. A couple of days later, he said, do you want to go home? And I said, my kids need me. But I was happy there. And he said, I’m a Christian, I don’t believe in divorce. But I’m not going to let you out of here until I know you’ve made arrangements not to live with him anymore. And I fell apart because I thought that would be committing the worst sin in the book, even just separating. But I called my friend and she called the pastor and the pastor told him, Oh, just play along with it. Live in your van for a few days and once she gets home, she’ll let you back. **Anne:** Oh my word, this is abuse on top of abuse on top of abuse on top of abuse. **Louise:** Yeah, and my dad said, Oh, just give her a pill, but I never let him come back. **Anne:** You are so brave and so strong. You were resisting his abuse the whole time, because you did exactly what you were supposed to do. You were going for help, and no one, except for that last guy, was helping you, you are so brave. **Louise:** Actually, I wasn’t going to divorce him. His friend flew in and told him to get rid of me real quick, and so he divorced me. I think he thought I was making it all up. He’s married to my cousin, and we’ve always been friends. I’ve known him all my life, so I don’t know what the deal was, but I was glad. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## SECOND MARRIAGE & RED FLAGS **Anne:** That his friend convinced him to let you go, really? Your resistance had become quite troublesome for him. That’s actually what happened to me. My ex divorced me because my resistance was so untenable to him. **Louise:** I think I made him look bad, so he had to make me look bad. Then I was single for eight years, and it was great. My health got better. I just loved raising the kids myself. But he basically ran me out of town. He played games with the finances. Totally ruined my reputation with my friends and the church and everything. In little subtle ways where, well, you know how she gets and stuff like that. And even my oldest daughter she came home one day. And she said, Mom, if you knew what people were saying about you in this town, you wouldn’t want to live here anymore. She didn’t actually share what she heard, but that’s what happened. And so I thought, you know, maybe marrying again would be a good idea. This must be a rare dynamic. Surely there aren’t many guys like that around. But I met my current husband. It was a visa thing, you had to move here a week before you get married type thing. **Anne:** So you meet him online, he’s got a farm, and you move to the States with him. Did you have a long distance relationship with him? **Louise:** Yeah, but it wasn’t that far, like five hours, we could see each other fairly often. And looking back, sure, you can see the red flags. Well, I have to confess to you that I found some old exploitative tapes, but I destroyed them. ## REPEATED PATTERNS & SEEKING COUNSELING WITH A HUSBAND WHO IS PARANOID AND ANGRY **Louise:** So that sounds pretty good. right? On the wedding day, I had a friend I hadn’t known terribly long. And he went off driving with her all afternoon. Then he came home and took her into our bedroom for an hour with the door closed. I was shocked. I had my friends and family, they were all there in the house, and I still don’t know what they were thinking. Because he ignored them all, all day, and then a couple years later, I signed us up for a marriage retreat. I found out three years later, he had arranged for his girlfriend to be there, and her husband. I know he had another email account. So he was keeping in contact with a couple of girlfriends, and he was definitely into pornography. He admitted it to the counselor we went to. It was pretty much the same thing all over again. Several years ago, I said, if we want to make this work, I want you to sign up with an abuse counselor. And, oh, he was like, no, that’s not going to work because blah, blah, blah, blah. And finally, he did sign up and she interviewed him, and then she talked to me and she said, you know, you’re wasting your money. Take that money and get help for yourself. The biggest thing that has helped me, about five or six years ago, one day I looked in the mirror and I said, God, what do you think of me? How do you feel about me? And in the next three days, everything changed. I know what God thinks now. And so the next time he insulted my body, I just laughed. ## KNOWING GOD LOVES ME **Louise:** And I said something like, You’re not such a young punk yourself anymore. Something like that. Sometimes it still hurts. Sometimes it still makes me mad. But when you know to expect it, and you know it’s not your problem. That makes a huge difference, and I’ve also learned to do a lot of boundary setting. I know he thinks that means I’m controlling him, but I’m not. It used to be like, is it okay if I go to town? A lot of isolation, he didn’t want me to go to the town six miles away because it was a waste of gas. And I just say this is what I’m going to do today. I don’t know, there’s always answers and always help. The Bible says, Jesus said, my sheep hear my voice, and he will answer us. And sometimes he gives dreams, and sometimes a scripture, sometimes a friend. It’s important to have support when your husband is paranoid and angry. **Anne:** One of the [symptoms of spiritual abuse](https://www.btr.org/effects-of-spiritual-abuse/ "symptoms of spiritual abuse") is not feeling connected to God. And getting the right support like the support available through [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/). How is it different? **Louise:** Oh, totally. Like night and day, the whole Christian world said you can’t get divorced. And it’s the woman’s fault, everything. You know, if you would treat him better or whatever, this wouldn’t be happening. And you try until you make yourself sick, right? And, you know, we can be thankful for all the support we have, but you still have to reach out. Because my husband is paranoid and angry. **Anne:** Well, do you know why we have that support now? It’s because of women like you, I’m standing on your shoulders. ## REFLECTING ON THE PAST **Anne:** Had you not resisted in all the ways you resisted, I would not be here. And so we all owe a great debt to women who came before us, who led the way for us. **Louise:** Our stories hopefully can help someone else. Who is dealing with a husband who is paranoid and angry. **Anne:** I’m so grateful for women who pressed on without any support. Your stories are both inspiring, and then also so horrific. It sounds like torture, and I’m so sorry you went through that. It’s awful. **Louise:** And the hard part is when people don’t believe you, you know? **Anne:** Mm hmm, yeah, can you believe that people are still not believing women? **Louise:** Yeah, no, it’s amazing. **Anne:** Yeah, yeah, it is. You are so brave and incredible. And as you continue to grow and heal. I’m so grateful to have you as part of our community. Thank you so much for all your support. ## ENGAGEMENT WITH BETRAYAL TRAUMA RECOVERY PODCAST **Anne:** How long have you been listening to the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcast](https://www.btr.org/podcast/)? **Louise:** For years, almost from the beginning, I think. **Anne:** Thank you so much for your support. Do you remember how you found the podcast? **Louise:** I think on Facebook. And I sure appreciate what you all do. **Anne:** We appreciate you. Thank you for all your support over the years. If it weren’t for women like you, we wouldn’t be doing this. So thank you. **Louise:** Yeah. Thanks so much for putting it out there. I mean, it takes something to just put our stories out there. **Anne:** It does. It’s a lot of work. It’s so worth it. I’m so honored to hear women’s stories, because it’s a very vulnerable thing to share your story. Thank you so much, Louise, for sharing today. It will make a big difference to someone who hears it. Thank you so much. **Louise:** Thank you. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Husband Won't Stop Lying: This Happens Every Time](https://www.btr.org/husband-wont-stop-lying/) **Published:** August 26, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** If your husband won't stop lying, he's likely emotionally or psychologically abusive. **Content:** If you’re realizing, “my husband won’t stop lying,” you’re not alone. Below you’ll find six ways he’ll react if he gets caught. ![My Husband Wont Stop Lying to Me](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/My-Husband-Wont-Stop-Lying-To-Me.webp "My Husband Wont Stop Lying to Me")Understanding these reactions can help you make sense of the situation and take steps toward emotional peace. ## COMMON REACTIONS WHEN A MAN IS CAUGHT LYING Recognizing your husband’s reactions when caught lying can help you decide on the best course of action. ### 1. HE CALLS YOU CRAZY The most common tactic he’ll use is to undermine your perception of reality. By calling you crazy, he deflects the focus away from his actions, placing the blame on you instead. This gaslighting technique can leave you questioning your sanity and doubting your instincts. He may tell others that you’re crazy too, isolating you from support. ### 2. HE CLAIMS YOU’RE NOT REMEMBERING CORRECTLY Another method of deflection is to insist that you have your facts wrong. By questioning your memory, he seeks to create confusion and doubt, hoping you’ll back down from your accusations. ### 3. HE WAYS THERE’S ANOTHER SIDE TO THE STORY When confronted with the truth, some men attempt to reframe the narrative by suggesting that there are two sides to the story. By doing this, they aim to sow doubt and present themselves as a victim or “just” misunderstood. When someone is lying, there aren’t two sides to a story. There is only truth. ### 4. HE UNDERMINES YOUR CREDIBILITY In efforts to protect themselves, men may attack your credibility, telling others that you’re not trustworthy or reliable. This tactic serves to isolate you and make it harder for you to seek support or validation. ### 5. HE ACCUSES YOU OF NOT TRUSTING HIM When caught lying, a man might try to turn the tables by accusing you of not trusting him. This shift in focus can make you question your judgment and feel guilty for even bringing up the issue. ### 6. HE CLAIMS YOU DON’T RESPECT HIM AS A MAN By alleging that you’re disrespecting him, he diverts the conversation away from his actions and makes it about your behavior. This tactic aims to pull your attention away from the real issue: his lies. ## UNDERSTANDING THE BIGGER PICTURE Lying in marriage is a form of emotional and psychological abuse. For some women, they can be experiencing decades of this type of abuse from their husband, especially if he’s hiding his pornography use or affair. Click here to take my [free emotional abuse test with lots of examples of emotional abuse](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). It’s sad that when a man is confronted about this type of abuse, he reacts with the same abusive lies. ### YOU’RE NOT ALONE If you’ve experienced these responses, know that you’re not alone. Many women in our Betrayal Trauma Recovery (BTR) group sessions have faced similar situations. The isolation, fear, and frustration you’re feeling are valid and need to be processed. Being believed and supported is the first step toward reclaiming your peace. Being called crazy or untrustworthy can be deeply hurtful. It’s crucial to find spaces where your experiences are validated, and your emotions acknowledged. This kind of trauma needs to be processed with the right support. ### WHEN HE’S CAUGHT LYING, HERE’S HOW TO KNOW THE TRUTH The brave women at Betrayal Trauma Recovery developed strategies for women to use when they suspect their husband is lying. To determine what’s going on, enroll in the [Clarity After Betrayal Workshop](/clarity/). Gain insights, and learn strategies to protect yourself and your children. Catching your husband in a lie can often result in him using manipulation to cover his tracks. If you’ve been called crazy or had your credibility undermined, it’s vital to connect with others who understand. Our [online support group for betrayal trauma](/group/) will be the community you need. ## TRANSCRIPT: MY HUSBAND WON’T STOP LYING **Anne:** Today we have Angel , a survivor of two marriages that ended due to addiction. She has six awesome kids. Welcome. **Angel:** Thanks for having me. **Anne:** We’re going to talk to you a little bit about your personal story. You went through two marriages with addicted husbands. Let’s focus on the second marriage and what happened there. Can you talk to me about what your life was like before that D-Day with your second spouse? **Angel:** I was divorced from my first husband, who was a pornography addict. And I met this guy who was everything I never imagined existed. He was soft. He was sweet. But not in a weird way. He was just this super awesome, amazing guy. I was not actually a Christian at the time, neither was he. We dated for a couple of years and bought a house together, and we went to church, and we both got saved in that church. And when we got saved, we got convicted for living together. ![Can You Forgive a Lying Husband](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Can-You-Forgive-A-Lying-Husband.webp "Can You Forgive a Lying Husband")So we got married. I had already had six children from my first marriage. My children were rather young. It was a pretty normal life. I had the kind of relationship that my friends were jealous of, because my husband was always home. He would do chores. He didn’t leave his underwear on the floor. I had all kinds of health problems, but even despite all that, life was just good. Then after a couple of major surgeries and a foreclosure, we moved and everything changed. He was very different, and I couldn’t figure out why. Of course, I thought it was me or my kids, because it couldn’t possibly be him. I didn’t know then that my husband was lying. ## DISCOVERY DAY (D-DAY) **Angel:** I had been a stay at home mom, which I loved, but I opened a photography studio, so we were a pretty normal couple. didn’t go to church, which was unfortunate. I kept trying to get him to try new churches. But he was very resistant, and as time progressed, he got more and more distant. I started seeing more anger and lying, our intimate life almost disappeared. And then one day, I was on his computer. I had all his passwords, and he had all mine, we had nothing to hide. So I looked at his computer history, not sure why I was looking at his computer history. Because he swore he never watched online explicit material, and I believed him. I saw a bunch of meetup groups in his history. And all the profiles he looked at were female. And I thought that’s really weird, but I brushed it off, thinking he was looking for a tech meetup group because he’s a tech guy. ![What Does the Bible Say About a Lying Husband](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-Does-The-Bible-Say-About-A-Lying-Husband.webp "What Does the Bible Say About a Lying Husband")As I kept looking and seeing all these female profiles, it was like a light bulb went off. I out loud said, “My husband’s having an affair,” but I couldn’t see anything. So I ended up combing through his computer trying to find something, and I couldn’t find anything. So I went upstairs and got his phone, and started looking through the phone. I didn’t see anything until I found the Google Voice app. And when I found the Google Voice app, I read two years worth of texts from his affair partner. So that was my first D-Day. And found out my husband had been lying. ## UNDERSTANDING D-DAY **Angel:** Yeah, like, as I’m telling it, I can literally feel still reading the texts from her. And at first I thought it was just virtual. But it wasn’t just virtual. By the end of the texting, I realized they had actually met in person. **Anne:** For our listeners, maybe some of you are not familiar with the term D-Day. I’ve used it frequently on the podcast, and realized I’ve never defined it. In this context, D-Day means discovery day. The day you discovered your husband’s addiction, husband’s secret life, that your husband is lying to you. Sometimes it happens when you [check your husband’s phone](https://www.btr.org/is-it-wrong-to-check-your-husbands-phone/ "heck your huband's phone"). In my case, my worst D-Day was when my husband was arrested for domestic violence. And I realized, wait a minute, the behaviors I’ve been experiencing for seven years have been emotional abuse and physical intimidation. So, that day when everything came to a halt, that is what we call D-Day. We would love to hear about your D-Day, what you experienced. You can comment anonymously below about what happened to you. We would love to hear your experience about when you found out you were a victim of [betrayal trauma in your relationship](https://www.btr.org/betrayal-trauma-in-a-relationship/ "betrayal trauma in your relationship"). ![How to Deal with a Lying Husband Bible Verse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Deal-With-A-Lying-Husband-Bible-Verse.webp "How to Deal with a Lying Husband Bible Verse")**Angel:** If I can actually piggyback on the telling your story part, I think that is probably one of the most healing things you can do is tell your story. The more you tell your story, the more healing you get, at least that’s what I’ve experienced. Telling your story is super, super hard, but there is so much healing in telling that story. So please share your stories. ## MY HUSBAND’S LYING WON’T STOP: CONFRONTATION & RELAPSE **Angel:** I confronted him. Of course, my husband kept lying and minimizing. And then I relapsed myself. I am a recovering drug addict. One of my friends had flown me down to Florida to shoot their wedding, and they had special favors of tequila with their names, and it was super cute. https://www.btr.org/is-there-hope-after-infidelity/ I kept them in my cabinet, but that day I grabbed the tequila, and my own relapse started and didn’t stop for a while. I wanted to kick him out, but I was too busy yelling at him. So I didn’t kick him out. Then I tried to get to the why’s. And of course, it was all me. It was everything I was doing wrong. I went into this, I have to become a perfect wife because I drove my husband to an affair. That lasted a little while on a longer than it should have. Then the relapse got worse for me and he was still doing things that I didn’t even know existed yet. And so I led the “recovery” by handing him books, finding him therapists, and trying to teach him how to help me. And the whole time, everything’s getting worse for us. There’s more fights. He’s starting to get borderline violent. He never actually hit me, but he would trap me in rooms when I wanted to leave to escape a discussion. Or he would try to force his way into rooms. If I didn’t want to have a discussion right then and there, the behaviors just really escalated. Anne: Of course you thought you were doing the right thing by handing him books and finding [your abusive husband a therapist. ](https://www.btr.org/your-abusive-husbands-therapist/ "your abusive husband a therapist. ") ![How to Pray for a Lying Husband](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Pray-For-A-Lying-Husband.webp "How to Pray for a Lying Husband")## PERSONAL DOWNFALL **Angel:** About 15 months of this chaos, and unfortunately, I did my own acting out. I don’t know, I thought it was revenge. I thought that would make me feel better. All it did was make me feel worse. And to this day, it still breaks my heart that I did that. So 15 months later, nothing was better. Everything was worse. I clearly had PTSD at this point. The symptoms were there. I was a twitchy mess. That’s how I described myself. So I kicked him out. Two days later, after I kicked him out, the floodgates opened and I found out about all the online explicit material. The men, the prostitutes, and everything else that went along with the addiction. So for 15 months, I thought it was just an affair, and then everything else came out. Because I have so much history with recovery from addiction, I know that change is possible. Even though I had found out my husband was still lying. I let him come home, because now I had an answer. This is why we haven’t been able to heal. It was because of an addiction. Well, now we can fix the addiction. So I let him come home. **Anne:** You’re having ups and downs with your own recovery during this time. And then you get the bombshell of finding out that he he’s been with other women, men, visiting prostitutes, and were you wondering [if there is hope after infidelity](https://www.btr.org/scriptures-on-betrayal/ "if there is hope after infidelity")? **Angel:** I was a weird mix of terrified, shocked, but hopeful. Again, I believe in the power of recovery. I know that an addict can change, because I changed. I know that because I know a ton of addicts that have changed. ![Why is Your Husband Lying to You?](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/j8CvkDrWyRc/sddefault.jpg) ## LIVING IN FEAR **Angel:** And actually the addicts that I know that changed. They’re some of the most authentic people you’ll ever meet. I did have that hope, but I was terrified. **Anne:** I feel the same way, by the way. Even with what I’ve been through, my ex husband’s not in recovery. Well, lately I’ve been praying every day that Christ will revive him. Like, literally, like, bring him back from the dead. **Angel:** Amen. **Anne:** Because I watch him and want our family together so badly, even though he’s my ex husband now. Even though I hold a no contact boundary because of his lack of emotional health, I still want our family together. So as you’re hoping for him to change, what are you doing? **Angel:** I did my research, but I did the wrong research. I ended up in the female co-addict, codependent books. And I didn’t find the right path to healing for a long time. I was slowly starting to recover me. Because I had lost me at this point. I was literally unrecognizable within a few months of him moving back home after the second large disclosure. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) That’s when the PTSD got insanely bad. Him coming home, nothing changed. I mean, all the behaviors that come along with addiction were there. My husband wouldn’t stop lying to me. He was angry. He blamed me for stuff. We were having circular conversations that made me feel insane. I did not know my reality was what he said, just true. Am I actually crazy? I wrestled with that one for a long time. And then I got some form of, I guess it’s a agoraphobia. ## MY HUSBAND WAS STILL LYING: AGORAPHOBIA **Angel:** I was so triggered whenever I left my bedroom. That I basically lived in my room for like a year. I remember there was a period for a couple of weeks where just going to the bathroom was traumatic, which sounds exaggerated. It was really, like I would put my hoodie on and put my hood over my head, for some reason that made me feel safer. And I would literally run to the bathroom. Like there was this monster in the house that was going to get me. And then ran back, and my bedroom was like my cocoon. It was the only place I felt safe. And I missed a lot of my life for almost a year in that place. And the whole time he’s acting out and of course saying he’s not, he’s claiming his sobriety from the rooftops, and she’s actually just crazy, he just kept lying. **Anne:** Was he sleeping in the bedroom with you at the time, or was he sleeping somewhere else in the house? **Angel:** After he moved home, he was in the bedroom for a very short time, then he was on the couch. **Anne:** Okay, so he’s not in the bedroom with you, and so thus you feel like you at least have a little bit of a safe space, kind of. **Angel:** Yes. **Anne:** But not really, since you’re still terrified. **Angel:** Yeah, that was just my cocoon. We were in this chaotic cycle and the behaviors progressed. I said, I need to stop this conversation. And he grabbed my arms and was trying to force me to talk to him. ## ISOLATED FROM CHURCH & FRIENDS **Angel:** And he did it so hard that they bruised. And I didn’t even realize that was physical abuse. That thought never crossed my mind. He was starting to get mean with the kids. Everything was just escalating, and my children were suffering. Because you know, mom’s locked in her bedroom and dad’s gone crazy. This part’s just a little, a little hard, because I have kids I love and I was so depressed that they didn’t even matter. And as a mom, that’s really, really hard to admit, but that’s how low things had gotten for me. And I should have explained. I have literally no family, none. He had isolated me from my church and from my friends. So I literally was alone. And so I’m sitting in my car with this bottle. And I hadn’t been to church in a couple of years. All of a sudden I hear this, not, well, not literally hearing, but “call Robin,” her name is Robin, a woman from my old church. And Robin and I were never close. I mean, I know her, I liked her, but it’s not like we were good friends. I just kept feeling this call Robin, call Robin, call Robin. And I’m like, I don’t want to call Robin. I’m done. I’m done with life. I can’t do this anymore. I summoned up the nerve to call Robin, and I went to her house, and vomited my entire story onto Robin. That’s the first time I’d ever told my entire story, and she had no advice. She just listened. ## BACK TO CHURCH & TELLING MY STORY **Angel:** By the end of it, I got angry. All of a sudden, I asked her for a Sharpie. She’s looking at me like I have three heads, but she gets me a Sharpie. On my wrists, I wrote live free one on each wrist that day. I decided I was done. I was not going to end my life because he couldn’t fix his. And that’s when recovery started for me. **Anne:** Wow, you have a powerful story, and I appreciate your candor and sharing this with us today. And I’m sorry for all your pain. I can hear it in your voice, and so many of our listeners have felt similar feelings to what you felt. So when you decided to recover yourself, what were your first steps? **Angel:** The first thing I did was go back to church. I knew that I was so far in a pit, I was not going to get out on my own. So I started reading my Bible all the time, and stopped listening to secular music. And I just surrounded myself with the word of God, and I actually sought out people for the first time. Then I started telling my story to anybody who would listen, because I needed help. I was so desperate that I didn’t care if you were a rock. I was going to tell you my story. Because during all this, I found that five of my six children had struggled with online explicit material. It was just bad. I started going back to church, and I found a couple of different websites that had me doing exercises on like visualizing what I want my life to be. What my values are. ## CREATING BOUNDARIES TO DISTANCE MYSELF FROM MY HUSBAND’S LYING **Angel:** I learned the word boundary, I had never heard of it. Then I started reading books. Piece by piece, I started getting better. I actually kicked him out. And I filed for divorce, which wasn’t what I wanted, but I was literally dying. So I had no other options. And we were a month away from divorce when I heard about a program called Teen Challenge. It’s actually designed for drug addicts. It’s like a rehab year-long live-in program. And I told my husband at the time, I’ll stop the divorce and see who you are. If you commit to go to teen challenge. I didn’t think he’d say yes, but he did. He quit his job and lived in a program for a year. He got better for a couple months. And relapsed in Teen Challenge, or so he told me. Now he says he didn’t actually relapse of course my husband is lying. He’s changed the story so many times I don’t actually know the truth. But either way, he wasn’t getting better. So he graduated Teen Challenge. I was still afraid of a relapse. There were still a lot of red flags for me. So he moved in with our pastor for a while, so I could see how he could handle life on the outside. My landlord in the house we lived in gave us 30 days notice because he was selling the house. So I had to find a new rental that would accept my brood of children and my animals while I’m working full time and still dealing with trauma. And so I actually let him move home to help me. ## FAILED RECONCILIATION **Angel:** It spiraled quickly over the summer, and he went back to those old bad behaviors, physically threatening me, the anger, the continued lying to me. And then I caught him with online explicit material and I kicked him out. **Anne:** I can’t imagine what you’re feeling. Well, I can actually, sorry, part of me can. So you send him away for a year. You have faith in God, and he’s been through this program. He moves back home, and it all totally falls apart again. I imagine you were completely devastated at this point. **Angel:** I started going back into, I call it, PTSD land, where I kind of lived with all the PTSD symptoms. What made me decide to kick him out was the agoraphobia came back again. And at this point, I had regained my life. I was an active mom, and I was who I was. I was fun, light, and doing things outside in the world. And I could handle football games for my son. I was me again. And over that summer, all the old stuff started coming back in me, and I said, no, I’m not, I’m not going there again. And I kicked him out. **Anne:** Wow, how are you feeling about God at this point? **Angel:** Oh, I’m angry. **Anne:** I would be too. I’m thinking God’s told you to send him to this year long thing, you’ve been doing all this alone. He comes back, and basically he is not changed at all. Why? Why didn’t you just have me end it a year ago? Right, we’ve all been through that thought process. ## RECLAIMING FAITH **Angel:** I just went through a year of basically hell, while he’s in rehab. And he’s not even out two months and he relapsed. What am I missing here? **Anne:** Right. **Angel:** Something’s not adding up. Yeah, I was angry. I felt betrayed by God. I love worship music, but all my worship music reminded me of my husband, so I stopped listening to that. There’s this one song that talks about I’m going to take back what the enemy has stolen. For the longest time, that song resonated, we were going to take back our marriage. I decided to flip that song around, and it wasn’t about my marriage anymore. It was about what the enemy stole from me. And one of the things he stole from me was my faith in God. He got my marriage, but he doesn’t get to have my faith. He doesn’t get to take the pieces of me. And honestly, I kind of yelled at God a lot. I yelled at God some more, and then I yelled at him some more. And every time I did it. I could feel him saying, I understand, but I got this. I kicked him out and he moved 900 miles away. We got divorced. The divorce is final. And I actually offered reconciliation. Obviously, it would require repentance and recovery, that has not happened. And he has basically abandoned the kids. He has absolutely no contact with them whatsoever. Right now, that’s the hardest part watching my teenage girls go through that abandonment. ## MY HUSBAND’S CRAZY BEHAVIORS & LYING CREATE CHAOS **Anne:** Yeah, my ex, he moved from a city he was living in temporarily back to the city where we live. He told his friends, I’m so excited to move back. I can spend more time with my kids. And then from the day he moved back, he hasn’t seen the kids for four weeks now. When you’re talking about the definition of insanity. And where you were in that process of observing your husband’s behaviors, being in that chaos. And not being able to figure out exactly what was happening. **Angel:** When you see these behaviors that are insane. That’s what they look like, and they make absolutely no sense. When he won’t stop lying to me, and you have a set of beliefs, morals, and standards. And your actions don’t match that, it creates its own chaos. That’s where you tend to see all the other crazy making behaviors that drive us absolutely insane. Lying, that’s probably one of the most rage igniting things. **Anne:** Lying it’s like you’ve got Jekyll and Hyde . **Angel:** Well, Jekyll and Hyde, like the wife finds something on the history of the computer, he has to figure out a way to make the two make sense. Lying is a good way to do it. Lying can alter our reality and perception of what’s going on. They’ll say things like, well, it’s not a real person, so it’s not that bad. It’s not even cheating. I’m a man, I can’t help it. I have a high drive, and besides, all men look at it, right? I mean, it’s a guy thing. It’s just what they do. I only do it a few times a month. It’s not a problem. ## EFFECTS OF INAPPROPRIATE ONLINE MATERIAL **Anne:** Women in the industry are not treated well. Many of them are on drugs. Many of them have been exploited. They are miserable doing their job, and the time they spend in the industry is very, very short. Most of them don’t spend a lot of time doing it, because it’s so difficult for them. I’ve talked to someone on the other end. He produced it for a while, and then stopped. And he said, I always knew I was ruining the lives of the women I filmed. But I never thought about the people watching it and how their lives were also being ruined. I think it’s very difficult for them to realize that they’re hurting their wife, themselves, and also hurting the woman being exploited. They’re also hurting the people in it. And so it’s important to teach people that it creates a demand for exploitation. And that demand must stop. As long as people are viewing it, there will also be exploitation and slavery. All the lying is so intense. **Angel:** My husband won’t stop lying to me. He twists words to convince me that these lies make sense. Like, I deserve to watch that, because my wife won’t have it with me, even though that doesn’t make any sense. That one is so damaging to women, because one of the big lies is the way the wife looks. Or they will blame the weight the wife has gained, or the activities that the wife is willing to do. If she did such and such act, I wouldn’t have to watch it. Or, if she took care of herself and lost some weight, I wouldn’t have to watch it. ## LAME EXCUSES, LIES & PROJECTING **Angel:** Or, if she wasn’t such a mean, demanding person, then I wouldn’t need all this stress relief. Or, I’ve had a really bad day at work, all my customers are jerks, and I’ve been treated like crap by my boss, and I deserve to watch it. **Anne:** In my case, I was too much, asked too many questions, was too consistent, demanding and controlling. Because I was a woman of my word, I had integrity. I was trying to figure out what was going on, and I was not going to stop until I had the answers. Although at the end, he told me that I was not attractive. But before that, it was that I was too much, and then it became that I wasn’t enough. And it was very hurtful to me. I had the same issue, my husband kept lying to me. Those lies still ring in my ears. He also [lied about small things](https://www.btr.org/husband-lies-about-small-things/ "lied about small things") too. **Angel:** Right, mine was good at projecting. He started isolating himself from the family. We would have things that we were going to do, like carve pumpkins. I’d say, come on, let’s go carve pumpkins. And he would say he was working in his office, and he wasn’t. Or, hey, let’s go to the park. Pretty much anything with the family, he kept lying to me. Well, he said he cheated because I didn’t want him involved in my life. Like he literally would flip everything around, and then he would say things like, I didn’t want it enough. And the reality was that I was starved and turned down all the time. ## MY HUSBAND WON’T STOP LYING: GASLIGHTING EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Anne:** Mine didn’t ever initiate in the first place, and then I stopped initiating. And he didn’t ever do it, and I’m sure he tells people she wouldn’t have it with me. So that was a lie he told about me. And I’m like, well, you only initiated twice during that six months where I didn’t initiate. And both of those times were immediately after I had been severely emotionally abused. I wasn’t safe. And then you didn’t ever try when I did feel safe. So yeah, that makes sense. But he doesn’t tell people, because I didn’t initiate it for six months. That gaslighting is intense and traumatizing. Gaslighting is part of emotional abuse. **Angel:** Yeah, and the gaslighting made me feel crazy, because I didn’t know my reality. Gaslighting is lying. My husband wouldn’t stop lying to me. And that’s such a hard thing to describe, not knowing my reality. But when everything is twisted and all I had was him and me. I didn’t have anybody to tell me, okay, no, that’s not right. Or that’s not making sense. I don’t know what’s up or down, and it’s all because of the gaslighting. He would say something, and then five minutes later I would repeat it back to him, and he would say, I never said that. And I’m like, yes, you did, but by the end of the conversation, I’m going, well, did I? **Angel:** Really didn’t know. **Anne:** Yeah, or they say, I know I said that, but that’s not what I meant. And you’re like, no, this is what you meant. This is exactly what you said, but now you’re denying it. It’s strange, yeah. ## EDUCATING WOMEN ON ABUSE **Anne:** The reason we talk about abuse is to educate women about the behaviors they can expect. So that they know they’re not crazy, so they can start to observe their husband’s behavior to see if their husband is emotionally safe. [Learn about this in The Living Free Workshop.](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) My number one goal with Betrayal Trauma Recovery is to teach women what these safe behaviors look like. So that they can start to establish safety for themselves. Because you cannot [heal from the trauma if trauma](https://www.btr.org/individual/) is continually happening to you. **Angel:** No matter what’s going on with him, there is hope for you. You don’t have to stay stuck. Your life can change. Your life can get better. **Anne:** You are worth it. **Angel:** Amen. **Anne:** You are worth it. God loves you, and he wants you to be safe. Thank you so much for being here. I appreciate the time you’ve taken to talk with us. **Angel:** Thank you for having me. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Before Hiring a Therapist Codependency Expert, Know This First](https://www.btr.org/therapist-codependency/) **Published:** September 2, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Emotional & Psychological abuse victims "mimic" codependent traits: this is why you're not codependent. Read on to learn more. **Content:** Many women spend years (and thousands of dollars) hiring a therapist codependency​ expert after someone convinces them they are the problem. If someone has labeled you “codependent” because you reacted to your husband’s problematic behavior, stop for a moment. Before you schedule therapy, understand this: you may not need to fix yourself — you may need to protect yourself. ## YOU MAY NOT NEED A THERAPIST CODEPENDENCY EXPERT, YOU MIGHT BE SEEKING EMOTIONAL SAFETY Often, betrayal trauma victims (women who have experienced their husband’s lies or betrayal) are doing anything they can to save their marriage, not understanding what’s actually been happening. Women in this situation are rightfully trying to protect themselves, which is always good. But some people want to put these healthy behaviors in a negative light. They call her codependent, misleading her. They tell her to blame herself: “What have YOU done to contribute to the problem?” This wrong advice helps the abuser continue to harm her. It also makes it harder for the victim to set healthy boundaries. ## BUT WHAT IF I’M ACTUALLY CODEPENDENT Many women find that after they create distance between herself and emotional and psychological abuse, what they thought were “character flaws” often fade away. These traits were really healthy resistance to abuse. To find out if you’ve been experiencing emotional abuse, here’s my free [emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ![is It Codependency or Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Is-It-Codependency-Is-It-Abuse.webp "is It Codependency or is It Abuse")## TRANSCRIPT: HIRING A THERAPIST CODEPENDENCY EXPERT, KNOW THIS FIRST > **This episode follows Felicia’s Story** > Part 1: *Before Hiring a Therapist Codependency Expert, Know This First* (THIS EPISODE) > Part 2: [*Divorce and Emotional Abuse – Felicia Checks in 9 Months Later*](https://www.btr.org/divorce-and-emotional-abuse/ "Divorce and Emotional Abuse - Felicia Checks in 9 Months Later") **Anne:** I have a member of our community, we’re going to call her Felicia, on today’s episode. Welcome, Felicia. **Felicia:** Thank you. **Anne:** I’m so grateful you’re sharing your story with us. We’re going to be addressing the label of codependent. codependency expert for help. But let’s start at the beginning. Can you talk about how he seemed to you at first? **Felicia:** We met at a Bible college and the first thing that I asked is, Could I use his book? Because I didn’t want to buy the professor’s book. He said, Oh, this is a wonderful book. I’ll buy it for you. I want to tell you my intentions are not to hit on you or to flirt with you. So I love that he was so straightforward and didn’t have any other intentions. ![Being Told You Are Codependent We Were Too](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Being-Told-You-Are-Codependent-Been-There.webp "Being Told You Are Codependent Been There")We became friends because I believed that he said what he meant. We fell in love, but there was no flirting, we didn’t have the same friends. So I was like, this is really weird, but I really, really like you. But it’s not like this desperate feeling, and that’s how we started off. **Felicia:** It was a long distance relationship at first. ## WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE CODEPENDENT IN A RELATIONSHIP: NOT THIS **Anne:** Looking back, do you think that he was being honest or do you think he really did have intentions to have a relationship with you? **Felicia:** I think he just told me what I wanted to hear. I was like, it’s not this desperate feeling. And he was like, me either. So let’s not date right away. I thought we would date. Because we both just told each other we liked each other. It was the relationship I thought I wanted at first. Except for lack of an emotional side to it. But yeah looking back, I think he just is really good at picking up on what people want to hear. Then filling that in. ![Reasons Why You Are Not Codependent](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Here-Is-Why-You-Are-Not-Codependent.webp "Here is Why You Are Not Codependent")**Anne:** Like low key. Hey, we’re just friends. Type grooming. **Anne:** How did it transition into dating? **Felicia:** I was just leaving the area. He said, yeah, let’s just do emails and phone calls. He said, I want you to pray about this for one week, that we should be boyfriend and girlfriend. I was just kind of disappointed that there wasn’t this emotional connection. I didn’t have any boyfriends through life to speak of. He said I want you to think about what you need in a relationship. Then we dated long distance still just talking on the phone. ## THE THERAPIST CODEPENDENCY EXPERT CAN’T HELP WITH THIS **Felicia:** It wasn’t gooey at all. They were like really good conversations. That to me was the perfect part of our relationship. Very good conversations about how we felt and thought. They weren’t long and drawn out. It was just fun to talk to him and then we started setting boundaries. He said, We’re probably going to pursue each other for marriage. Also, I think that I should come and get you. He was in Georgia and wanted to come to Idaho to get me. He said we should live in the same community if we’re going to see if we’re fit for marriage. We laid down physical boundaries, and I was like, okay, cool. I definitely don’t want to get over involved physically before I’m married. He said he needed these boundaries for himself. ![He Says You Are Codependent but You Are Not](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/He-Says-You-Are-Codependent-We-Know-You-Arent.webp "He Says You Are Codependent We Know You Arent")But as soon as we saw each other, we started crossing the boundaries that we had laid. It didn’t feel good. I didn’t like it. By the time we were back to our destination, where we were going to live in the same town. I was kind of like, what did I get into? And that was when we were dating. We weren’t even engaged yet. We got engaged several months later and married the next year. **Anne:** So at this time, you’re thinking, all that stuff we talked about. The boundaries that we set up, he didn’t adhere to any of them. Do you feel like you were coerced into it? He’s already setting you up to be responsible for him not keeping the boundary, and you identify as codependent and maybe need a therapist codependency counselor. ## YOU DON’T NEED TO LEARN HOW TO BE LESS CODEPENDENT ​ **Felicia:** Yeah, I thought it was sinning. And he was like, we can pray for peace and forgiveness. Because Jesus will give us that. It would feel so good and amazing and freeing, then within hours a day or whatever later, we’d be at it again. He would say that I was seducing him. Which I would feel really bad about. So I just thought I was bad. And we went to our family and our church and told them, we’re in sin. We’re not having it, but we’re breaking boundaries. And we tried to get help, and I thought, we just can’t resist each other. So then when we got engaged, I thought, let’s just get married right away. At least we have that connection. ![Believe You're Codependent? No, It's Emotional Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Think-Youre-Codependent-We-Dont-Think-So.webp "Thinking Youre Codependent We Dont Think So")## EARLY MARRIAGE STRUGGLES **Felicia:** But when we got married, it immediately stopped. We didn’t have a connection. We had a really bad beginning of marriage, no honeymoon spot, we would fight. I thought, Oh, it’s because we were sinful before. But I married thinking I was pure and it was confusing. How did we struggle so bad before marriage? Now that we’re married, it immediately stopped. **Anne:** He’s basically saying, I’m so attracted to you that I cannot keep my hands off you. So even though I’ve set these boundaries, it’s impossible to keep them. Because I’m so attracted to you. Don’t worry about it because we can just call on Jesus, he understands and we’ll both be fine. We can repent and yet he never actually repents because he keeps doing it. ![Here is Why You Are Definitely Not Codependent](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Heres-Why-You-Arent-Codependent.webp "Heres Why You Arent Codependent")Then you get married and then he’s just not attracted to you anymore, apparently. Because now it’s very easy for him to avoid physical contact. Is that what I’m hearing? **Felicia:** You said it all right. He made a lot of excuses. So that period of the marriage lasted 12 years. I lived in like a giant fog of why our intimate life had never been ignited once we got married. ## THERAPIST CODEPENDENCY: EMOTIONAL DISCONNECT **Felicia:** It was kind of the big red flag, but emotionally we didn’t connect. We had a really bad honeymoon and after that he would say things like, it is just emotional for me. So if we’re not connected, I don’t want to have it with you. Things like that, that made me feel like, well, I can’t force him. Over 12 years, I mean, we started having kids together. My drive waned, so it was kind of like, well, it’s no big deal now. But I would ask things like, why he thought it was like that. And one time he just said, he was going through medical school so it was so strenuous. I just looked up things and thought, I bet he’s too busy. ![when You're Being Told You’re Codependent - But Is It Actually Abuse?](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/When-Youre-Being-Told-Youre-Codependent-It-Might-Be-Abuse.webp "Being Told Youre Codependent is Emotional Abuse")**Anne:** He was using any excuse he could get his hands on. Anything that he heard, maybe women are like, Oh, I’m not emotionally connected so I don’t want to have it. Which was not his case. Because I’m guessing we’re going to find out real soon that he’s having it with someone else. But he’s just trying to grab hold of any excuse he can. To groom you into thinking it’s your fault that he’s not interested. When did you find out about the explicit materials use or the infidelity? ## DISCOVERING THE TRUTH **Felicia:** After twelve years of marriage. So it was in twenty, twenty one. I think it was the Holy Spirit coming into my intuition, cause I was just like, something is wrong. For some reason it’s bothering me more now, and I’m not gonna let it stop bothering me. I had gone to lots of counseling over the years, and never really found a problem with me. I went through a major lifestyle program, like residential treatment program for depression. That always owned up to being postpartum depressed and seasonal depression and all this stuff. Finally was like, you know what? It’s my marriage. ![What if You're Actually Not Codependent?](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/If-He-Tells-You-Youre-Codependent-He-Might-Be-Emotionally-Abusive.webp "if He Tells You Youre Codependent He Might Be Emotionally Abusive")Then I went to counseling and being like, it’s my marriage, help me. But at this point in time, I couldn’t sleep. I was just crying all the time. I was pregnant with our fourth kid, but I was like, this is not the same thing as pregnancy hormones. This is something deeper. So I just started digging and finding it on his device and I was like, the kids could have found this. You got to make sure that this doesn’t pop up on your computer screen. And he’s like, yeah, you’re right. That’s really bad. I’ll make sure I don’t leave that up anymore. But then I dug and dug and dug and kept saying, tell me the whole truth. Because I need to know that I know everything, because I’m finding images on his device. **Anne:** You’re finding lots of exploitative material and he’s giving excuses or saying, I don’t know. **Felicia:** Just kind of acting like he used a thing to watch movies. It would just pop up so he would just exit back out, you know? That’s all it is. ## GASLIGHTING & BLAME **Felicia:** One thing that he’d never done is ever had a big problem he’d been sorry about. I’d had like, a number of problems but he’d never been like, you know what, here’s this big issue or problem. I feel like In marriages two people usually have problems, but in our marriage, it was always just me. **Anne:** Tell me more about that. Was it like, Oh, I have a problem with my friend, for example. Or I have a problem because I’m sick. Or was it like, you mean just like general everyday problems that humans have? Like he didn’t have any of these regular problems. **Felicia:** He didn’t have regular problems. I would be like, do you think you’re a sinner? And he’s like, oh yeah, of course I’m a sinner. But he never had any confession of like, you know what, I feel really bad about this. He didn’t actually even say sorry, so I didn’t learn about gaslighting until much later. But If I came to him with, like, this makes me feel bad, when this happens. It would turn into, like, you don’t know how hard it is to have a depressed wife. Or, he was now in medical residency, so he’s like, I think you have ADD. So I actually went to my own doctor saying, like, I think I might have ADD. And my doctor was like, No, you don’t have ADD at all. He didn’t even seem like he had problems. I was like, I guess he’s this amazing person, ## EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Felicia:** I guess I’m just a monster. I decided when I got married that I was a monster and I never knew that I was. When we ever had a problem, it would go back to, I bet he hasn’t forgiven me. For how badly I treated him when we were first married. That’s what I decided it was, I just treated him really bad. I thought it was my fault. He’s like a super awesome guy. And he just can’t forgive me because he’s so sensitive. I hurt him that bad. He never had any offerings for why our marriage sucked. So I would offer things. **Anne:** But he wouldn’t. **Felicia:** Yeah, he would never. **Anne:** Abusers have a very distinct pattern. They only start their story after the real victim has started to resist the abuse. So the beginning of your marriage, you’re being abused and you’re trying to resist this abuse. He starts the story with like, everything was fine. Nothing was wrong. Suddenly she started treating me really bad rather than saying, I actually coerced her. And made her seem like I was super attracted to her. And then we got married and I completely ignored her and didn’t have it with her at all. ## REALIZING THE EXTENT OF ABUSE **Anne:** And I was a complete jerk, and then she was trying to resist me being terrible. If they started the story there, it would make sense. But instead they’re like, “Yeah, everything was fine.” We got married. I thought our marriage was great. They don’t tell people I was refusing to have it with her. I was giving her the impression I wasn’t into to her. So then when people hear his side of the story. They’re like, Wow, she just out of the blue is like super mad at you. **Felicia:** The other thing is there’s this common, I don’t know if that’s like a religious thing or whatever. But where like the man’s passive and the woman pushes him to not be passive. And that pushing to not be passive is really bad. That’s what I did. I was like, you know what, that was really bad that I pushed him to not be passive. I would let myself get all enraged at his passiveness. But looking back, it was like this passive aggression that he knew he was doing. And like, silent treatments, he’s very argumentative. Somehow he would like, shut down right when I ignited. Anyway, so I learned to like, turn that off. And stop pushing him, especially so that we could have children. Cause he said, we can’t have children until I stop this aggression and our marriage gets better. So I like became someone who just swallowed everything. Now I go back and I’m seeing there was a beautiful woman inside of me clawing. Saying, this is wrong. Something is completely messed it up and I disagree. And I’m not just going to go along with it. ## CONFRONTING THE TRUTH **Felicia:** That’s what happened. I became someone who just went along with stuff. I didn’t I didn’t talk to him very much at all because he was just going to disagree. We were going to have an argument so I just listened to him. He would just go on and on and on and on. He was a like a monologue-er. That’s where we were when I found it. I finally said I have to know everything. And he was like, oh, no, you know everything. And I said, okay, I’m never gonna talk to you about this again. I’m gonna ask you one more time. Do I know everything? Have you told me the whole truth about this exploitative materials use that I keep finding? And he said, yes. So I said, okay, I’m never going to talk about it again. I wrote him an email, because I couldn’t sleep at night. And I was like, I know that there’s something wrong. I said that either Satan’s tormenting me. Or the Holy Spirit’s trying to communicate something to me. And that’s when he said, okay, let’s talk. That’s when he took me on a walk, and we dropped the kids off. Then he told me the whole truth about the previous 12 years. And how he’d watched this off and on. He said it was like, good exploitative material, it wasn’t violent, or whatever. He said he’d done that off and on for 12 years, actually his whole life. ## THERAPIST CODEPENDENCY EXPERT: KEEPING IT SECRET **Anne:** I feel like when they give details, you know that that’s the thing that they’re lying about. Because, why do you need to say that? A lot of times they do this fake honesty where they’re like, this is the whole truth. I highly doubt that it was. Do you feel the same way? **Felicia:** I feel the same way. I mean, I felt peace for a little bit. I was like, you know what, our marriage is totally gonna work now. Because we have honesty. But the relationship was just as broken as it ever had been. **Anne:** At this point where you’re like, okay, he’s told me the “whole truth.” So I’m not really going to bring it up again. Did he go to therapy? Or did you go to a therapist codependency expert? Was he just like, okay, now that I’ve told you the whole truth, I’m never going to do it again. **Felicia:** I started bringing it up again. So I never decided, you know what, I’m not going to bring it up again. I did that email, and then he told me the whole truth, and then I just took the liberty to put the relationship into his hands. And be like, give me a reason for all of this. Because It was just such big thing. That our whole marriage was. I’m constantly like, How do two people find each other like this, fall in love. Then it becomes what it is? It never made sense. I walked around meeting people, older women, being like, Can we talk? Thinking that they would be like, my mentor and help me find out. But it was me that needed to find out the truth. ## REALIZATION ABOUT EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Felicia:** No one else knew. When I finally found out, I was like, I feel like this is the reason for our whole entire relationship. And then that’s when I realized about covert emotional abuse and covert narcissism. One, when you watch this stuff, you become less emotionally attentive and able. **Anne:** I’ve started seeing you become less interested instead of “blaming” the use. It’s like when you use you don’t have the desire to be intimate with people anymore. It’s not like it makes you that way. You just don’t care anymore. Because I think if we say, if you view it, then your brain gets shut off. It sort of takes the choice away. We have to recognize that they could still say, wait a minute, this is hurting my wife, this is hurting me. This is hurting my family. I don’t want to do this anymore, but they just don’t have the desire to make anything different. **Felicia:** He did start into therapy. He of course he had problems with his counselor. And didn’t think it was working. So he wanted to, stop. I think he’d like jumped around. Needed to find like the perfect therapy. But he found his own therapy and like his own books that he thought he should read. I actually thought that sources that he found were very good and should have been helpful. But our relationship was not getting any better. One thing that bothered him as I started to say that he needed to take all the responsibility for the pathology in our marriage. ## HUSBAND BLAMES ME FOR BEING CODEPENDENT **Felicia:** I was like you need to take all the responsibility for that. Because along the way, I had been taking responsibility for each bad thing that I thought I did. If he brought something up, I would be like, you know what, you’re right. And I would try to change. But he never had, then I was like, well now you have to take the responsibility for the whole pathology. He took that to mean I was blaming all of our marital problems on him. And he’s like, this is just too much. This is just too much pressure. I needed to be better and maybe see a therapist codependency counselor. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) **Anne:** For some reason it wasn’t too much pressure for him to [blame you for all of the emotional abuse](https://www.btr.org/blamed-me-for-the-emotional-abuse/ "blame you for all of the emotional abuse"). **Felicia:** Exactly, I know. I’m like, Oh my gosh, you have no idea what I’ve been putting on my shoulders this whole time. **Anne:** Also, it was 100 percent his fault. So, what’s the problem? Literally was 100 percent his fault. **Felicia:** He wants to back up until the original in a marriage, it takes two people to make it work. So like, that’s what I had gone by. And I had tried to be the person to stand up and say, I’m going to do my part. Then after he completely has a secret for over a decade, that I never found out about. ## THERAPIST CODEPENDENCY EXPERT & GASLIGHTING & DIVORCE **Felicia:** That I couldn’t know about, now all of a sudden I’m like, this is your fault. If he really felt sorry he would have been like, you’re totally right, it’s all my fault. But instead he’s like, oh my gosh, that’s too much pressure. This is a marriage, you can’t blame it all on me. I found [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/) at that time. I grew a lot and found out a lot, it really helped me. He was just focused on this awful stuff and I was finding out that this is not about exploitative material. This is about every way we relate. The gaslighting and the blaming, it’s just like a physical abuse problem where the husband batters the wife. Except for you don’t want to look bad by actually hitting me. So you hit me emotionally, and there are no bruises. I mean, that’s, I feel like it’s 100 percent what the problem was. So I started to get to safety. We had times where I left the house for a few weeks. I think at a time, like three times that year. That was the year we got divorced. **Anne:** [Divorcing a narcissist is so hard.](https://www.btr.org/divorcing-a-narcissist/ "Divorcing a narcissist is so hard.") When did you think that you might be codependent? ## YOU’RE NOT CODEPENDENT, YOU ARE BEING ABUSED **Felicia:** It was probably 2021. Actually, before I found out about his use. I was calling myself an empath because he would come home and have these rages. And it would really bother me. Sliming cupboards when he’s cleaning and stonewalling. I would be like, you know what, this is my fault because he’s had a really bad day. He didn’t tell me that I did anything wrong. And he’s like, he’s not telling me that, you know, I’m in a bad mood and don’t talk to me. So I was blaming it on that I feel him too much. Like he’s coming home and I’m like feeling all of this. Then I’m starting in on this fix it thing, which is labeling me as codependent. When I should just be like, Oh, you know, you’re allowed to have a bad day. That’s okay if you slam cupboards and stuff because you’re not hurting me. **Anne:** During the time where you think maybe you’re an empath, was that when you thought that maybe you were codependent? **Felicia:** I guess we have to kind of define codependency. **Anne:** The official definition of codependent, which I do not think codependent is a thing. So I don’t even want to be like this. I want to be like, people have made this up and it’s a victim blaming thing that people use. And in their minds, this is what codependent means. Characterized by excessive emotional or psychological reliance on a partner. Typically one who requires support on account of an illness or addiction. ## AM I CODEPENDENT? ASKING A THERAPIST CODEPENDENCY EXPERT **Anne:** So it’s saying you’re the one with the problem because you, Felicia. Which this is not true, but this is why it’s victim blaming. You have this excessive emotional and psychological reliance on him. That’s not the case. He’s abusing you and you’re just trying to survive. Because in trying to get to safety, you’re trying to figure out what do I have control over? Maybe if I don’t feel all of his feelings. If I’m not so excessively reliant on him, then things will get better is what you’re thinking? You are trying to make him into a safe person and other people are defining it as codependent. **Felicia:** Yeah, almost like, oh, I need him to come home and be a peaceful person. That’s really bad of me to need someone to come home and be peaceful. Is that really codependent? That’s exactly it. And you know what? I do remember asking a counselor back in 2017 if I was codependent. She said, oh my gosh being codependent is a big problem. Let’s work on that. I always felt like it was led by me to try to find what was wrong. I never wanted to be like, I’m here because I hate my marriage and my marriage is like ruining my life. So I thought it was a broader problem. Maybe it was my growing up or my background. Then when I found out it was exploitative material, she said, “I want to tell you this is abuse.” I kind of rolled my eyes, because I was like, oh brother, like, abuse. That was just annoying to me. ## WILL CODEPENDENCY TREATMENT WORK? **Felicia:** And I think it was just too much for me to look into, so I waited six or nine months. And that’s when I found [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/). And was like, yeah, it’s abuse. **Anne:** So you didn’t stay in that codependent place forever. Women think that if their codependent then they can fix things. You find BTR. You were like, Oh, I’m not codependent, it’s really important to me that women know they are not codependent. Did you attend BTR sessions at all? **Felicia:** I did the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions](/group/), and I did[ individual sessions](/individual/). The group sessions were mind blowing. Because it was the first time I’d found a bunch of other people that completely related with absolutely everything I was saying. I thought this covert emotional abuse was like a specific problem that I had that, you know, was obscure. Yeah, everyone in the group understood and you didn’t have to get them to understand what you were talking about. It was just like, yeah, we get it. **Anne:** How was that different than the therapy that you had been going to? **Felicia:** All those years. I was like looking for friendships, mentorships, counselors. Who would say, “Oh I found the problem that is perplexing your whole life.” I mean, it’s dragging you down. There’s that cave analogy where I’ve been like locked in a cave with an abuser. But also like a slave, a slave who like feels they need to be there because they need to help the master because that’s going to be a beautiful relationship. ## CODEPENDENCY VS INTERDEPENDENCY​ **Anne:** Once you can help him enough, it’s going to be great, hold on a bit longer. **Felicia:** Yeah, it’s going to be a good marriage. That’s what marriage is. Now here I am finding out that it is not the right way. People don’t understand. I tell my friends and family pretend like this is physical abuse, because it’s exactly the same. I don’t know what people think emotional abuse is. But it seems at first it’s an excuse or something. Betrayal Trauma Recovery answered all of that. I was desperate for years to find an answer. It answered all of that confusion that I had. I’m like, I don’t know how these other wives find out about it, and then they just go on In their marriage. I couldn’t be safe doing that. **Anne:** Let’s talk to women who are like, “Well, what if it’s not abuse?” who think, “Maybe I’m codependent and need help.” or ” Maybe he’s an addict.” How do you know that the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/) model, the abuse model, is real? I think some women are worried, I’ve thought it’s that before, and it hasn’t been that. So there’s no reason to go down this abuse thing. Because I’m going to find out in six months that it’s not abuse, that it’s actually something else. **Felicia:** I’m still in that, because now that we’re divorced, the co-parenting is a nightmare. And I still am like, is it me? ## WILL THERAPIST CODEPENDENCY NO MORE ACTIVITIES WORK? **Anne:** This is why I wrote [my workshop](/clarity/ "The Living Free Workshop"). **Felicia:** Not only that, but one humongous piece of the story is that right when I got the divorce, he turned all my friends against me. I have no friends now. It’s really hard to go to a church where you’re connected. And you have, good friends that you get together with, I told them about the abuse. And they were like yeah, and I didn’t think they totally got it. I didn’t think they were gonna disown me. Like, these people have called me names and are not fun to see at the grocery store. So, it’s hard to believe that It’s not me, and so I’ve wondered if it’s me. I think relationships, good marriage relationships are not confusing. There’s problems. You can see what’s going on. You can try to fix the problems and try to love each other more. But this relationship was completely confusing. There was no reconciliation. There was no now we can love each other now that we found that out. None of that. There was never any of that. **Anne:** I think some women do go through a period of, Oh, now that we know this, things will get better. And if they do go to a addiction recovery specialist, or a therapist codependency expert. They’ll actually tell them that. They’ll actually say things will get better now that you know this. They kind of do get better for a little bit, but then they don’t get all the way better and things are still confusing. ## IS CODEPENDENCY BAD: HERE’S WHAT TO KNOW **Anne:** Then some addiction recovery folks, like a 12-step group or something, they’ll say, well, now you have to stay in recovery because you’re a codependent. And wife, you also have to do 12-step and you have to do this the rest of your life. Because this will always be an issue. Then do you just keep seeing that pattern over and over? And the problem is an abuse problem that keeps cropping up. We all have healthy relationships with people who aren’t perfect. You can laugh about it. Like, Oh man, that’s funny. She sometimes is disorganized and she forgets things. She doesn’t become less forgetful necessarily. But the resolution is you learn, Oh, she’s forgetful sometimes. And that’s okay. We can work with this. Abuse is not something that you can work with because abuse is always a power over dynamic. And so anytime it gets to a place where something feels resolved and you feel equal. Then the abuser will try to push you down again somehow. There’s never going to be any resolution possible. **Felicia:** Trying to stop it, but it’s like the it is a symptom of this power and control. So it’d be like if you get physically abused and you try to stop the hitting. And the solution is to stop the hitting. That doesn’t make sense. They’re hitting you because of a power and control. You’re not just gonna try to stop the hitting and be like for the rest of your life. We’re gonna just try to stop the hitting. ## WHAT DOES CODEPENDENCY LOOK LIKE? **Anne:** But you can still lie and manipulate and all kinds of other things. **[Felicia](Anne:%20But%20you%20can%20still%20lie%20and%20manipulate%20and%20all%20kinds%20of%20other%20things.):**Yeah, I also learned about the secret sexual basement from [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/). It’s like, why is it abusive when someone lies to you? When you get married to that person, and let’s say you build a house together. And then after 12 years you realize there’s this basement that no one knew about. That person got to go into the basement whenever they did, because they always knew about it. The whole family is like, what? I didn’t even know that we had this basement. That’s why it’s like abuse, because it’s It’s his choice when he wants to go. Also, why he wants to go, he knows all about it. Everyone else just has no clue that it was even in the makings of a construction. Much less what the content of that basement is. **Anne:** It’s so hard, and it’s also hard when other people don’t know how to help victims identify this, right? Because they’ll go and say, my husband, to use this metaphor a little bit longer, he left, I don’t know where he’s going, I’m so confused. And instead of saying, oh, well, maybe he’s an abuser. Maybe you’re being psychologically abused, maybe he’s doing it in the basement, you know? As victims it’s hard to know the difference between [emotional abuse and normal conflict](https://www.btr.org/emotional-abuse-vs-normal-conflict/ "emotional abuse and normal conflict"). ## THERAPIST CODEPENDENCY COUNSELOR & NARCISSISM​ **Anne:** They’re like, oh, he just probably needs his space, and it’s healthy for people to have space, and then it just gets so confusing. **Felicia:** Yeah, the normal marriage wisdom doesn’t work for abuse situations. Just don’t expect so much. That doesn’t work. Give, give, give, and don’t expect anything in return. I mean, those were the things I grew up hearing about marriages. If you could guarantee me that both people were doing that, that’s true. But the minute one person does that and the other person has no intentions of doing that. That’s what was baffling is after all these years, I’m like, I can’t believe that we’re marriage partners. This is the person I’m supposed to be more intimate with than anyone else in the whole world. And I find out that you’ve been doing this. Against me and they say it’s not about you that exploitative material isn’t about you. That’s also very disturbing and not helpful. I don’t know who it’s about but it’s totally done to me. When you say to your wife, I don’t want to have it. No, thanks. I’m not in the mood. Or whatever your reasoning is, and then you’re off, having it with yourself. **Anne:** It’s not true because they are in the mood to have it, but they’d rather have it with the computer. They’re not being truthful when they say that. They’re not being truthful when they say “I’m not in the mood.” ## HOW TO HEAL FROM CODEPENDENCY: SPOILER, YOU DON’T​ **Anne:** They’re in the mood all the time to have it with someone else. Instead they should say, “Oh, I totally want to have it. I have it so much. I do every day, twice a day. When I look at stuff online, I just don’t want to have it with you. That would be the truth. Then you’d be like, Oh, whoa. Instead, he’s just happy to have you think that you’re just unattractive, and somehow he doesn’t want to have it at all because you’re the way that you are. That’s absolutely not true. **Felicia:** There’s so much problem in that, when you really think about a husband and a wife. What you just said is like, can you believe that would just be a simple problem? No. There’s so much, on every level, of betrayal right there. My ex explained to me that when he was trying to get me to see what it really was. But when he said this, it was helpful. He’s like, it’s like going through a drive thru and ordering whatever you want. Then going and eating it in your car. You didn’t want to eat it in front of everybody because it’s kind of embarrassing that you’re a pig, or whatever. Even though it’s bad that he was trying to get me to understand that, that is exactly what it is. ## WHAT YOU DID DOESN’T EQUAL CODEPENDENCY EXAMPLES **Felicia:** It’s like a menu, and I wasn’t on the menu. Almost ever. I’m like barely ever on the menu. **Anne:** Well, and you don’t want to be on the menu. **Felicia:** I don’t want to be on the menu either. **Anne:** Basically, you’re not a person to them. That’s just gross. No woman wants to be like, Oh yeah, I’m on the menu. Yay. Like, no. **Felicia:** You’re exactly right. **Anne:** Why do you think it takes victims so long to realize they’re a victim of emotional abuse? **Felicia:** I don’t know. For me, like I said, I kind of rolled my eyes when I heard abuse. Because it’s like, oh great, everything’s abuse nowadays. ## THESE ARE NOT SIGNS OF A RELATIONSHIP ​THAT NEEDS A THERAPIST CODEPENDENCY EXPERT **Felicia:** Abuse is one sided. I get into a marriage and if it’s abuse, I have to be like, you have a problem with hurting me. And it’s not my fault. And it ruins our relationship, but you need to change, and I can do nothing about it. That sucks. Not only am I not gonna say it’s my fault, but you’re not gonna say it’s your fault either. And I can’t do anything about it. The powerlessness, I guess. **Anne:** It’s awful. I think that’s why women sometimes like the word codependent and think that therapist codependency treatment might help, because It seems more empowering to them in the moment than abuse. Because if you are codependent then there is something you can do about it. If you’re partially responsible, by being codependent then you can do something about it. But if you’re not responsible for it at all, you can’t. And that feels terrible. Some women are like, I’d rather think I was codependent because then I have some power in the situation. Whereas If I say it’s abuse, then the only thing I can do is get to safety. It doesn’t necessarily mean divorce. You can work towards safety. And he could have an epiphany like we talk about in the BTR [BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). At any given time, he could enter reality and realize, Oh, I am being abusive. I’m not going to do this anymore. But if he’s doing it on purpose, you telling him, “Hey, this is abuse,” is only going to make him abuse you more. Because he’s trying to shut that down. ## YOU DON’T NEED CODEPENDENCY COUNSELING​ **Felicia:** Right, and there’s obviously a power dynamic anyway. That makes it worse now the powerful person is mad, basically. I used to think it was wrong for me to think that my husband should treat me more affectionate, more loving. those are woman qualities. You shouldn’t expect a man to have those woman qualities. He can be gruff and, and kind of dumb, kind of clueless. It was a thread throughout our whole marriage where he’s accidentally doing stuff to me. But because I’m extremely sensitive it causes a problem, but he’s really just like bumbling around in life. He can’t be hurting me if it’s not intentional. He only can hurt me if he purposely did it. That was grooming, where I was like, made to believe that his intentions were always good. So I shouldn’t accuse him of doing anything that might say that he had bad intentions, because he never did. **Anne:** Well, and the problem with that is the reason why they’re so hell bent on proving that their intentions are good. And that they didn’t mean to do it on purpose is because they did mean it on purpose. That is so hard for women to understand. That they want you to think. that they are doing it accidentally. Then they can kind of keep doing it because they always have a reason to do it. Oh, it was an accident. ## VICTIM IS NOT A CODEPENDENT SYNONYM​ **Anne:** Of course I don’t think that if they said to their wives, no, I do this on purpose so I can exploit you. The wives would immediately be like, Oh, what? No, so they have to continually convince their victims that It’s accidental. Or that their victim might be to blame and needs therapist codependency treatment. Therapists love that too. Oh, you’re doing it because of your childhood trauma. Or because of this and that, and whatever excuse they can think of, because it’s just too hard to admit. No, I do this on purpose because if I didn’t, I would have to take out the trash. And I would have to make dinner. I would have to help drive the kids around, and I don’t want to do that. I just want to exploit her. And so I’m going to keep doing this instead. It’s absolutely more socially acceptable to pretend like you’re doing it on accident. ## YOU DON’T NEED TO HEAL WITH A THERAPIST CODEPENDENCY EXPERT, YOU NEED COMMUNITY **Anne:** So now that you’re divorced and you can still see that he is abusive. Because he’s still doing it. now. he’s still blaming you and causing problems and co parenting is just an absolute nightmare. What would you say to women who are starting this process of, well, I’m not sure if he’s so abusive. Maybe I can do something about it. Maybe I am codependent. What would you say to them? **Felicia:** The part that I’m still wrapping my head around is my whole community of believers just abandon me. **Anne:** Like your congregation or your church? **Felicia:** Yeah, that’s where I had friends, and I mean, we were moving cross country. I’ve lived all over the place in his educational and career pursuit. But I had lived where I lived for a couple of years. It was going to be like our forever home. I actually found friends, really good friends, right away. I guess I’m just mind boggled that they turned against me. They do not want to have anything to do with me and they must believe I’m the bad guy. I don’t know what they believe about me, what lies were told about me. There’s three towns where I don’t even want to go to the grocery store. Because I have friends from those towns that I have seen at the grocery store. And had a bad encounter with. That doesn’t even answer your question at all. It’s part of the story that’s the cliffhanger. Where I’m just trying to get healthy again, and stand up for myself. Because I know I’m right. And I’m trying to be my best friend that listens to me. ## HOW TO CURE CODEPENDENCY: SPOILER, YOU DON’T NEED TO **Anne:** Would you say that maybe what you’re struggling with is all of this secondary abuse that you’re experiencing? Because he has purposefully now tried to convince all of these people. And actually not just tried, been successful in convincing them that you’re the abuser on purpose, to isolate you and hurt you. So now it’s like, oh, I thought I was so healed. I thought I understood, but he’s still actively trying to harm you. By harming your relationships with other people. He’s still actively abusing you. **Felicia:** I told everyone the truth. He admitted to it and the divorce was supposed to be in agreement. I wanted to divorce him. I wanted people to know that this is because of his abuse that I’m doing this. He was saying yeah. Now my community is beating me up in the same way I always was. They’re calling me a liar and I have like this fear now of, I’m a victim! I’m afraid of being like that. But that’s actually what’s happening. I’m another victim, and this time, it’s my whole community. **Anne:** None of the abuse you’re experiencing now is convincing you, even more, that it’s abuse. ## EXPERTS CAN’T REPLACE COMMUNITY **Anne:** You’ve done BTR group sessions. You’ve been to Individual Sessions. So the two things to do now are get more educated about are strategy and how to deal with all the unsafe people around you. And then start praying you can make friends in your area. People that you’ve never met before. People who know nothing about it to be on your team in your local area. You will find people. And they will be a great support to you. Instead of trying therapist codependency treatment. It might take a minute and it might be someone who’s going through it herself right now. It might be someone who you’re actually going to be an answer to her prayer. That she’s like, I’m going through this too, and I need help. Those are the women who tend to be the most helpful in this situation. You tend to end up supporting each other because we really, really get it. And that’s why [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org) is awesome because there’s nobody here that isn’t on your side. **Felicia:** I found a new friend and she started to sound exactly like me a while ago. And so I decided to be for her what I would have wanted. I thought, his might be it. But we’re not really hanging out that much anymore. I was trying to be gentle in case she wanted to stay. I just don’t want her to go not knowing that this might be the answer. It’s not a good way to make friends talking about people’s husbands badly. ## FINDING THE RIGHT FRIENDS WHEN YOU’RE ACCUSED OF CODEPENDENCY IN MARRIAGE **Anne:** Oh, that’s true. She didn’t realize he was abusive. **Felicia:** I was like, do you guys have a good relationship? Is it confusing? Does he ever have any problems? She was answering them all in the red flag sense. So I was like, it might be this, you’re not codependent. She didn’t tell me no. Like, she said like, gosh, I had a feeling I should have been done with him a long time ago. They’re on their second marriage to each other. They already divorced and now they’re married. Someone told me one time that they thought that my husband was into it. And I was just like, ugh, I did not like hearing that. I was like, No he’s not, You don’t understand. And now years later I’m like, she was right. **Anne:** In order to make a true friendship, I feel like being honest is always the best policy. So if you’re like, hey, I feel like this is abuse. And they’re not ready for that for whatever reason. And it offends them and they don’t want to be your friend anymore. Then that’s okay. Maybe they’ll be your friend later. Because you don’t want a service project. You want a really good friend who you really get each other. If her husband is abusive and she can’t see it. You’re not going to be a good friend to her either because it’s going to be driving you crazy. ## THERAPIST CODEPENDENCY TREATMENT CENTERS VS FRIENDSHIPS **Anne:** And that’s why professional services are so important. Because friendships really should be an equal thing, not service projects. Our services aren’t service projects. Because if we did them for free, we’d have to get other jobs. And we would not be able to help women, but they’re our job. So getting professional services is totally different than looking for a friend who’s on your level. And not a She’s almost doing you a favor in some ways because you would have been really annoyed all the time. You know, wait, she’s not seeing it. If she’s telling you clearly abusive things and you’re like, uh, you know it’s not going to be fun for you either. ## CODEPENDENT MARRIAGE: SPOILER, IT’S NOT YOUR FAULT **Felicia:** And then I’m just gonna build another fake community of a bunch of friends. That I don’t want to tell the truth to, so that’s not good. We don’t want a big group of women deciding that they all need therapist codependency help. Yeah, I can see that being honest with people, and hopefully friendships will follow. **Anne:** I think that you will. It’s just a hard time. Have faith and be yourself and stay true to who you are. And things will work out eventually. I’m so sorry that you’re going through that right now. That is so hard. You’re amazing. **Felicia:** Thank you so much for being beautiful. **Anne:** You’re amazing, you’re incredible, you’re strong, things are complex. ## YOU’RE THE OPPOSITE OF CODEPENDENT **Anne:** A lot of people don’t like me because I say their husband is abusive. Not because I know him personally, not because I’m trying to hurt their marriage. But because objectively the behaviors she is describing are checking the boxes. That any domestic abuse services would say, yes, this is abuse. That’s it. We’re not making abuse out of nothing. We don’t even know the people. We’re just saying, Okay, this is abuse. Also, we’re not giving any excuses for it. Maybe he does have a brain lesion. Maybe he does have PTSD from when he served in Iraq. But that doesn’t mean it’s not abuse to you. It doesn’t mean that it’s okay that you’re being abused. So, the reasons don’t matter why you’re being abused. The thing that matters is you’re being harmed. And it’s not your fault, you don’t deserve to be harmed. You don’t deserve to be harmed because someone has labeled you codependent. **Felicia:** You’re right, and I’m not gonna feel sorry for spreading that message. I want women to not be harmed in their relationships. And I shouldn’t feel bad about not wanting that. I don’t want that for myself either, which I forget about myself. But yeah, I don’t want myself to be harmed. **Anne:** But it is a lonely place sometimes, it’s just such a hard road and you don’t have to do it alone. We’re here for you, Felicia, and we’re here for all women going through this. ## WHY THERAPIST CODEPENDENCY COUNSELORS WON’T HELP **Anne:** All I want to do is educate women about abuse so that they would know what they were facing. So they would have information. They could make the decisions. That they aren’t going to be blamed for being codependent. They want to make them and get to safety and we can support them in doing that. And then once they feel stable and safe and that they have friends in their area. Then we’re like, We’re so glad we were here for you when you needed us. And we wish you the best of luck. We’re here again if you need us again. Unlike 12 step or even religion that’s like you can’t leave. You know, you have to stay in 12 step or you’ll do it. We’re like, there’s nothing wrong with you you’re not codependent. You’re amazing. We’re just here to support you through a very difficult time. And then when you’re stable and you feel good and you feel like, Oh, I’ve got friends we’re like, yay. We love you. You’re going to do great. You’re brave, strong and incredible. ## CODEPENDENCY VS LOVE ISN’T THE ISSUE **Anne:** Well, thank you so much, Felicia, for sharing your story. I really appreciate it. **Felicia:** Thank you so much. I can do this. **Anne:** You can, thanks for helping me get the word out that you are not codependent. You’re doing great. Talk to you soon. **Felicia:** Bye **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast **Tags:** emotional abuse --- ### [Divorce & Emotional Abuse - Felicia Checks in 9 Months Later](https://www.btr.org/divorce-and-emotional-abuse/) **Published:** September 9, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Struggling with divorce and emotional abuse? Learn how the right support can help you. **Content:** Divorce isn’t just paperwork—it’s a complex emotional and logistical process that’s almost impossible to navigate alone. Divorce and emotional abuse go hand-in-hand. If you’re struggling after divorce, the right support can make all the difference. **This episode is part of a series**: > **This episode follows Felicia’s Story** > Part 1: *[This Is Why You’re Not Codependent – Felicia’s Story](https://www.btr.org/therapist-codependency/)* > Part 2: Divorce and Emotional Abuse – Felicia Checks in 9 Months Later (THIS EPISODE) If you’re a woman going through the pain of a divorce, you don’t have to go through it alone. We are here to help with three easy-to-use resources that can support you as you heal and get back on your feet. Plus, you can access all of them online from anywhere. ## 1. THE RIGHT INFORMATION Did you know that many women are/were emotionally abused to the point that it resulted in divorce. But they blamed themselves (not knowing it was emotional abuse)?? Do you feel confused by your soon-to-ex’s behavior? Does he blame you for his affair or for the divorce? Are you questioning your own reality and emotions? Our **[Free Emotional Abuse Quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/)** can help you identify what actually happened. By understanding the true cause of the divorce, you can start making quick forward progress toward healing. [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast](https://www.btr.org/podcast/) helps women understand emotional abuse, manipulation, and recovery after betrayal. Most episodes feature a woman sharing her story. Listening to these stories can help you feel seen, give you clarity, and show you actionable next steps for your own healing. ## 2. THE RIGHT SUPPORT Healing doesn’t happen in isolation—it happens in a community of women who truly understand what you’re going through. [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/) are designed to offer just that. Picture joining a support session from your couch, your kitchen, or even your car. First, you meet a group of kind women who understand what you’re going through, because they’ve been through tough times too. Hearing other women share their stories helps you feel understood. When you share your story, you get support and advice instead of judgment. Plus, these daily sessions are easy to join and won’t cost too much. There are more than 21 sessions every week, so it’s easy to find one that works for you. The women running the sessions have been through similar experiences, so they know how to provide the support you need. ## 3. THE RIGHT STRATEGY FOR HEALING Healing from divorce requires more than information and support—it takes strategy to achieve your goals. That’s where the **[Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/)** gives you simple steps to protect your emotions and mind. Whether you’re still married, separated, or already divorced, this workshop can help. You’ll learn easy tools to understand your ex-husband’s actions and figure out what he might do next. This workshop has 65 short video lessons, and each one is only about 3 minutes long. Plus, it comes with a free, printable workbook. And 13 Meditations. You’ll learn simple techniques to help you escape his chaos and control. With easy steps and clear instructions, you’ll know exactly what to do next. ## TRANSCRIPT: DIVORCE AND EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Anne:** Everyone knows divorce isn’t just paperwork. It’s a complex emotional and logistical process that’s almost impossible to navigate alone. Divorce and emotional abuse go hand in hand. So if you’re struggling after divorce, or [making the decision to divorce](https://www.btr.org/should-i-get-a-divorce/ "making the decision to divorce"), the right support can make all the difference. Welcome back, Felicia. **Felicia:** Thank you so much. ## FELICIA’S COMMUNITY STRUGGLES **Anne:** When I interviewed you five months ago, you felt rightfully very sad and frustrated. Because your community had turned against you, and you felt alone because of divorce and emotional abuse. Can you talk about what’s happened in the months since you came on the podcast? **Felicia:** At the time I was about to get a divorce. I thought my whole community supported me. So it was like the bottom dropped out when I got the divorce, and my ex managed to turn everybody against me. I had people calling me and telling me how awful I was. And I said before it was not happy for me to meet someone in the grocery store. It felt like, how could I be right and all these people be wrong? I felt like I had been in a safe place, like a good place when I got the divorce. I felt really healthy. And then suddenly I started to question my health, and in Christianity, you learn you can’t be the only right person. So you need your community to help tell you if you’re wrong. If everybody says you’re wrong, you probably are. And that just wasn’t the case. I had to find where I was and cheer myself on. Because integrity is when you are right and have to stand alone. And that’s actually what I was doing. **Anne:** During our last interview, you were really struggling. What changed? ## THE ROLE OF MEDITATION IN HEALING **Felicia:** I did the [Betrayal Trauma Meditations in The Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/), and it was just … like I’m already traumatized. Why do I need to work so hard? The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Meditations give me truth that I think about and think about. Meditate on that. It’s true things about me, believing myself and regaining confidence. And that’s what I’ve done. I have my confidence back. I feel like my brain is healthy for the first time in a long time. I’ve have community now. I attribute a lot of the confidence I have from the Meditation Workshop and the truth. It led me to be my own best friend, know the truth about myself. And stop second guessing myself based on how everybody’s treating me. I first started playing the meditations while I went on a walk, and I would just think about the meditations as I walked. They were all centered around the truth about who I am as a person. And they helped me. Because I needed the truth about who I am in the meditations. And I didn’t need to dig and try to change. It was right there for me. **Anne:** Yeah, I love that about the [betrayal meditations.](https://www.btr.org/free-betrayal-trauma-meditation/ "betrayal meditations.") That women don’t need to change or be anything different. Who they are right now is good enough, is exactly who they need to be. **Felicia:** Women need to learn about how beautiful they already are. The only thing that needs to change is for them to realize the truth about themselves. Last time we talked, I wasn’t that spunky about finding new friends. Because I was still so upset that my other friends dropped me, and dealing with divorce and emotional abuse. ## FINDING SUPPORT DURING DIVORCE AND EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Felicia:** I just figured, why find new ones, it’s going to be less real? I just kept going to this church, and it’s really small. They’re like older women. Lately, I needed help legally, because I’m fighting against my ex. I needed some people to write letters. And I’ve been going there a year now. They know what’s happened to me, and they’re just for me. Everything I want to do, they want to back me up on, and they have seen me be a mom. And they think I’m really good. And it wasn’t until I needed these letters written that I realized I have so many people that are helping me at a time that I really need it. Whereas all my friends have always been out of convenience, and then conveniently dropped off when I needed help. They weren’t helping when I went through divorce. I realized I still had lifelong friends that I hadn’t kept up with. And now I’m realizing how many people I have. But more importantly, the depth of support they’ve brought me. **Anne:** When I interviewed you nine months ago, you thought you had no one. But, I’m gonna restate here and see if I’m hearing you correctly. Number one, You didn’t realize there were more people who supported you than you thought, but also maybe number two, that many of those people you mourned their loss. **Felicia:** Yeah, I was in a time when you’re believing two realities. I know everyone said they’re not your real friends. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## ENEMIES MOVED! **Felicia:** But they felt so real, and then when the rubber hit the road, they weren’t actually there at all. I was mad. I wish they hadn’t left me, and supported my ex, who was abusive. They knew he was abusive, inauthentic, and still left me. I don’t want friends like that, but I wanted friends like that. They were my friends, now I fully realize how unfriendly they were. They were my enemies. I call them my enemies now, because they were mean to me when I thought I had their support. And I was dealing with divorce and emotional abuse, it was all so heavy. So now I’m fully realizing who they were. I guess, because I fully realized who I am and how I’ve only been trying to do the right thing. Not only did I not do anything wrong, I’ve been trying to do everything right. And found myself, and I don’t want them in my life. And they just happened to be moving out of town now, which is awesome. I can’t believe that happened. **Anne:** That is awesome. I had a neighbor I did not like, and I actually put on my miracle board, which is like a vision board, that they move. I wrote on there that this family moves, and I walked out of my house one day. The for sale sign was in their front yard. And I was like, yes! **Felicia:** I know, that’s how I feel. It was actually my pastor’s wife, like my best friend, who chewed me out and like swore at me on the phone. On the way to this interview, I just drove by your house. **Anne:** Just now? You just saw it? ## LEGAL BATTLES & EMOTIONAL STRUGGLES **Felicia:** And the for sale was at the end of her lane, just like you said, and I was like, YES! Yes, I just saw it now. Yes, I just found out about all these people moving last week. I found out about all three of them moving on the same week. **Anne:** That is awesome. I’m so happy for you. **Felicia:** Yeah, I’m like, I can go to the store now. And I have my local church all to myself without all these hateful people around me. Someone has told me they’re afraid of me, and that’s why they’re leaving. It’s this spiritual thing, but honest to goodness, I became healthy, and now I found out they were gone. **Anne:** So you’re feeling good, which is awesome. That’s the benefit of living free. Even when you’re still in a tough situation, you can start feeling peace inside. So you’ve struggled with his legal and emotional abuse during divorce. Right after the divorce, he started suing you for all sorts of things. **Felicia:** Yes, since the divorce, he immediately started legal pursuit, and it was hard because his abuse was always hidden. And he got more aggressive, so my family got to see who he really was, for themselves. But the legal pursuit has been really hard. Before I did the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/), I tried to give him what he wanted so that he would leave me alone. And then I found out that you don’t give an abuser what they want, so they’ll leave you alone. They’re bullies, and they’re always gonna just make it worse. It has escalated to the point where he’s telling lies in court under oath about me. ## FINDING STRENGTH TO WITHSTAND DIVORCE AND EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Felicia:** But what’s good about it is that anytime we’ve had a hearing and a trial is coming up, the judge has ruled in my favor. And I was just overlooking that because I was so scared and I feel so powerless. But the judge surprised me this last time and ruled that we keep the child support the same. I thought he was going to drop it, and then my lawyer told me, do what’s best for your family, and that’s all you need to do. And when the judge asks you why you did something, you can tell him that you actually thought it was what was best for your family. And it was that statement that started to make me feel free again, because I was like, why do I need a lawyer to tell me to do what’s right for my family? Why did I not feel like I could do that? But in this legal battle, I honestly felt like I don’t even know if I can do what’s right for my family. Because of the gaslighting to where they make you question whether you’re doing something right. And when my lawyer said that, it made me realize, yeah, I can do what’s right for my family. And then the excuse I will give will be that I thought it was right for my family. **Anne:** That’s exactly what it was. You are trying to do the right thing. They are not trying to do the right thing. I’m so happy to hear that you have a good attorney and had a good ruling. That is rare when you’re dealing with divorcing an emotional abuser. ## THE PATH TO HEALING & SAFETY **Anne:** Did you think nine months ago that you would feel the way you feel now? **Felicia:** Months ago, you told me it would get better, and you encouraged me to the point that I was like, oh my word. We could do an interview again, and I could see if I could heal. I had a Betrayal Trauma Recovery coach talk to me at the beginning and say, what do you want? I actually said, I want to be a better mom and stop yelling at my kids. And I felt like that was totally unrelated to what I was going through. She said, that’s what’s going to happen then. And she started asking me, what do you want here? What do you want there? And I wanted these healthy things, she said, you’ll get those healthy things. And now? I’ve tried and tried over the last months, plus the whole time I’ve been divorced. I’ve been like, where is my healing? I still felt traumatized by the emotional abuse. And what surprised me the most was that I was just striving. And suddenly it just came. I attributed it to God, but when I went on Facebook, in a [healing from trauma](https://www.btr.org/individual/) group, and shared that God healed me. They said, would you please put trigger warning, religion? And I was like, no, it wasn’t religion at all. Like, none of the religion healed me. God healed me. And bam, I just want people to be encouraged that you can be trying to heal, trying to heal. And then suddenly it will come. ## THE POWER OF VALIDATION & SAFETY **Anne:** The healing comes when we’re validated, and when we’re safe. The safety is the healing. So maybe something to consider is that the reason why you healed is because you learned safety strategies. You learned how to protect yourself, and over time you got more and more safe from the emotional abuse. Like the judge ruling in your favor. That is instant healing. **Felicia:** Yeah. **Anne:** Justice is a form of instant healing. If your ex moves to a different state and never talked to you again. That is instant healing. **Felicia:** Oh my word, yeah. **Anne:** People who say you need to learn how to deal with it. You just need to learn blah, blah, blah. I’m like, no, she just needs to not be abused anymore. **Felicia:** Yes. **Anne:** She needs to be in a safe place. And when you’re in safety, healing happens. I saw that same thing. And I struggled with post divorce abuse for eight years. I lost a court case, and then I was like, I’ve got to figure this out. I need strategies. That’s when I discovered the [Living Free message strategies](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). It’s also when I wrote the meditations for myself. I did the meditations myself, then used the Living Free strategies and delivered my kids. ## HEALING FROM DIVORCE AND EMOTIONAL ABUSE WITH WORKSHOPS & DANCE **Anne:** My ex basically signed the kids away out of court. And when they brought me safety, and then I replicated that with other victims. And they told me how amazing these strategies were. Once I knew they worked for everyone, not just for me, I wrote them in the Living Free Workshop so that everyone could learn them. He signed the kids away. And I was instantly healed. Instant, because we’re not crazy. There’s nothing wrong with us. Our husbands abuse us. For women listening, if they’re like, that’s great, but that doesn’t help that it just comes. What am I supposed to do in the meantime, right? Let’s talk about this. Things that you did in the meantime, you enrolled in Living Free. You did the Meditations. Can you talk about the dance class? **Felicia:** It’s actually an app, and I’m just dancing every day. I always wanted to dance through my pregnancies and stuff because it’s so healthy. But I’ve never danced. So I just wanted to learn the different types of dancing, and I try to dance for 10 minutes a day. Everything, little by little, is helping. I’m also on depression medication. So part of me wants to be like, Oh, it’s just that, but no, I’ve been on depression medication before. It’s not that. Actually, you know what I think happened? My ex always wanted me to think everything was me. It was all me. I had to change and become better. I talked in our last episode about how I thought I was a monster when I got married. ## UNDERSTANDING EXPLOITATIVE BEHAVIOR **Felicia:** And I always thought everything was my fault, and that wasn’t true. That was because of emotional abuse that I felt this way. That abuse mindset, where everything’s my fault, and it’s all because of me. Is what he wants me to think. And that’s what he still wants me to think. But the good thing is, the healthier I became, the more distant we became. And that’s exactly what’s happening now. I found myself divorced from the emotional abuse. So yeah, things are super hard still, the abuse is rampant. We have a trial coming up, but there is something about focusing on the truth. **Anne:** In the Living Free Workshop, it talks about how these men are exploitative. They want to exploit you, they don’t want you to go away. They want you close, so they can exploit you for energy. Your ex loves to play the victim in court right now. “She’s ruining me. She’s doing this.” And he feels like court is a great place to showcase how you’ve wronged him. But if you had wronged him, wouldn’t he want to be away from you? That’s how we can tell the victims from the perpetrators. After divorce and emotional abuse, victims desperately want to be away from them. We don’t ever have to talk again. I don’t want to have anything to do with you. And the abusers are the ones who are like, wait, I can’t exploit her anymore. What excuse can I use to message her? Oh, maybe I left my rock collection at her house, which they never cared about before, ever, ever. ## LIVING FREE STRATEGIES **Anne:** And then suddenly they’re like, this is the most important thing to me. And you took it from me when they could have just picked it up. So that exploitative character keeps them around. The Living Free strategies are how to be unexploitable. Which does escalate them for a second. Because they’re like, wait, wait, wait. I was using her for this, and now I can’t use her anymore. But then eventually, there’s nothing for them to hold on to. **Felicia:** I am still waiting for him to finally de-escalate. But, yeah, I use the Living Free strategies exclusively. That’s the only thing I use to communicate with him. It was life changing. I only use those because they are so helpful. I go back to them. Let’s see, how should I respond to this right now? And it is helpful. **Anne:** Well, with your dancing, the meditations, living free and message strategies, I’m so happy to hear. That even though it’s still hard, you are feeling better from the abuse. Felicia, thanks for coming back on and giving us an update. **Felicia:** Thank you so much. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Scriptures on Betrayal: How to Move Forward After Infidelity ...](https://www.btr.org/scriptures-on-betrayal/) **Published:** September 16, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** These are the best scriptures on betrayal for women finding out about their husband's lies and infidelity. **Content:** Here are some of the most common scriptures on betrayal. Then I’ll dive into an analysis of betrayal—specifically in the context of a husband betraying his wife, using examples from the scriptures of Judas. Here’s what you need to know If you’ve been betrayed and are turning to scripture for guidance. ### SCRIPTURES ABOUT BETRAYAL & BROKEN TRUST **Psalm 41:9 (ESV)** *Even my close friend in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, has lifted his heel against me.* **Psalm 55:12–14 (ESV)** *For it is not an enemy who taunts me—then I could bear it; it is not an adversary who deals insolently with me—then I could hide from him. But it is you, a man, my equal, my companion, my familiar friend. We used to take sweet counsel together; within God’s house we walked in the throng.* **Jeremiah 12:6 (ESV)** *For even your brothers and the house of your father, even they have dealt treacherously with you; they are in full cry after you; do not believe them, though they speak friendly words to you.* **Luke 22:48 (ESV)** *But Jesus said to him, “Judas, would you betray the Son of Man with a kiss?”* ### BIBLE VERSES WHEN YOU NEED STRENGTH & PROTECTION AFTER BETRAYAL **Ephesians 6:10–11 (ESV)** *Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil.* **Psalm 23:1–4 (ESV)** *The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want… Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me.* ### WHAT ABOUT JUSTICE AND TRUTH? WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT BETRAYAL **Psalm 101:7–8 (ESV)** *No one who practices deceit shall dwell in my house; no one who utters lies shall continue before my eyes. Morning by morning I will destroy all the wicked in the land.* ### BIBLE VERSES ABOUT HEALING & FORGIVENESS **Matthew 6:14–15 (ESV)** *For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.* **James 1:2–5 (ESV)** *Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness… If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach.* **Mark 11:25 (ESV)** *And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.* ### FINDING HOPE & IDENTITY FROM SCRIPTURE IN THE MIDST OF BETRAYAL **Philippians 4:13 (ESV)** *I can do all things through him who strengthens me.* **John 14:6 (ESV)** *Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”* ## TRANSCRIPT: SCRIPTURES ON BETRAYAL: HOW TO MOVE FORWARD AFTER INFIDELITY **Anne:** On today’s episode, we’re gonna go over Bible quotes on betrayal. Most of them scriptures about Judas that will teach us what the Bible says about betrayal, what Christ says about betrayal. One of my favorite parts of this interview was when we talked about what happened at the Last Supper, especially in the context of betrayal in marriage. Here’s a preview: Let’s just imagine all the people involved with this. They’re all sitting around the table, and you’re like, he’s gonna betray me. In that moment, what did they tell us? They told us to pray for him. They told us to go to [intensive couple therapy](https://www.btr.org/intensive-couples-therapy-near-me/ "intensive couple therapy"). So in that moment where Judas takes the bread, Christ isn’t like, hold on. Can somebody call a couple therapist. He didn’t say like, “Wait, can you guys, hold on, I’m gonna pray so hard. It’s going to fix Judas and I will come out and he is not gonna betray me anymore.” That does not happen. Instead, what does Christ say in that moment? But before we get to that part, I need to set the stage. ## WHEN YOU SUSPECT HE IS UNFAITHFUL **Anne:** And I’ve invited a member of our community on today’s episode, we’re gonna call her Jesse. Welcome Jesse. **Jesse:** Hi, thanks for having me. **Anne:** Before we go on, BTR is interfaith and inter-paradigm. Hopefully, what we talk about today will apply to you. Everyone is welcome here. If you need live support, [attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session](https://www.btr.org/group/) our team understands betrayal, because it happened to them. Jesse and I happen to be Christian, so we’re gonna share from our own experience. We’re from different denominations, so we’ve had different thoughts about it over the years. I invited her specifically to talk about how Jesus dealt with betrayal. Because one morning I was studying bible verses on betrayal and I realized, Jesus was betrayed, by an “intimate partner.” Someone on his side, except Christ knew Judas’ character was not the best. Also the juxtaposition between how Christ dealt with Judas, and how he dealt with the Pharisees and the Sadducees, his known enemies. Christ obviously had righteous disdain for some people. I mean, I’m sure he loved them in a cosmic way, but he really didn’t like them. He wanted people to know that he didn’t like them. He was very direct and called them vipers. And he threw over the money changers in the temple. He called them thieves. He knew they were exploitative. ## JESUS & JUDAS: WHEN HE’S IN YOUR INNER CIRCLE, BUT NOT ACTUALLY CLOSE **Jesse:** Yes, I was thinking about what the bible quotes about betrayal, and about Judas and his relationship with Jesus. I read an article that mentioned when the disciples are listed in scripture, they’re typically listed in a consistent order, with Peter, James, John and Matthew almost always listed first. Saying that was an indication of the closeness of the relationship. Judas is rarely listed in that way. He was part of the 12, but he wasn’t part of Jesus’ close knit circle. **Anne:** But I guess there were lots of people who wanted to be an apostle. Christ didn’t have to pick Judas as an apostle. He’s definitely closer to Jesus than the average person. There are probably lots of people who were like, “Hey, I wanna ride on Christ’s coattails,” and they weren’t chosen as apostles. In the context of betrayed women. They’re not necessarily close to their husbands. He lives with them. He goes on family trips, they go to church together, but are they actually close? This is something I feel like women instinctively know is a problem. They know they’re not close, and when they try to repair or remedy it, he just says they are. ## SCRIPTURES ON BETRAYAL: VERSES IN THE BIBLE THAT SHOW WHAT TO DO AFTER INFIDELITY **Jesse:** Right, in my case, I always felt part of my husband’s life. I definitely did the labor of caring for the children, caring for the household, and supporting him in his career. We did not have a life together as an intimate couple. We were roommates. Sometimes we were friends. We did travel a lot and did a lot of fun things together. But we did not have a partnership. I was a part of his life. **Anne:** In my study of scriptures on betrayal, I wondered if it was like that with Judas. I wonder if Judas thought Christ was part of his life, not the other way around. Like he wanted to be close to Jesus for his own benefit, but not for the gospel. ‘Cause he’s part of a club. I’m like, I’d love to go to a dinner with 12 people where somebody made me food. You know, I’m thinking about the last supper. Yeah, I wanna be part of that club. I would say that before I realized my ex was lying to me, we weren’t close. Any time I tried to get close, he would be like, “Of course everything’s fine.” **Jesse:** Absolutely, it was almost like we were living in two different realities. And I kept trying to pull him into my reality, which was family and building this life together with mutual interests for the benefit of one another. And he was in a different reality. Where pretty much everyone and everything centered around his life and what he wanted to accomplish. We were all supporting actors in his reality. **Anne:** Well, and, your [husband won’t stop lying](https://www.btr.org/husband-wont-stop-lying/ "husband won't stop lying") to you, so anytime you say, “Hey. Are we a family?” He’s like, “Yeah, we’re a family. It’s all good.” ## PROPHETIC SCRIPTURES ON BETRAYAL: WARNINGS ABOUT CAUSE & EFFECT **Anne:** While studying the scriptures on Judas, I began to imagine he might have experienced something similar. Where Christ is like, “Hey, you’re gonna betray me.” And Judas is like, “No, I’m not. Everything’s fine, of course we’re unified.” Speaking of that, let’s talk about the prophecies in the context of betrayal. So we’ve got in the Old Testament in Zechariah, people prophesied that Christ will be betrayed. Now anyone could have betrayed him. He was probably betrayed by more than just Judas. I believe these, I’m gonna say “prophecies”, do I believe in prophecy? Yes. And didn’t we all do these same prophecies? We’re thinking, if he keeps doing this. Then this will happen. Rather than a prophecy, can we think about it as more of a cause and effect? It’s pretty clear. If you continue to sext your coworker, you are likely to actually have sex with her eventually. I mean, is that a prophecy or is that this leads to this? As wives beholding our husband’s character. We make these types of, I’m gonna say “prophecies.” But do we make them because it’s set in stone, or are we saying this because we desperately want to avoid it? It’s the second answer, he was betraying him, which is how we knew he would betray him. If you lie, then you’re going to have an affair, but you’re already lying about your affair. This is [what the bible says about cheating husbands](https://www.btr.org/what-does-the-bible-say-about-cheating-husbands/ "what the bible says about cheating husbands"). And I’m wondering if that was the case with Christ and Judas, where he’s like, “If you keep doing this, you’re gonna betray me.” But the thing he’s doing is already betraying you. ## HOW JESUS DEALT WITH BETRAYAL: YOUR HUSBAND IS WORTH WARNING **Jesse:** Right, Christ is definitely giving Judas the opportunity to turn from his course of action. Christ knew, and he says it to him in such a way that Judas has an opportunity to change. And that’s what I certainly did with my husband. I would let him know about signs I saw that were gonna be damaging to our marriage. I gave him the opportunity to see what I saw, and he rejected it. **Anne:** What these scriptures show us is that this man who apparently has something about him that makes Jesus want him as a disciple, he’s worth warning. There are two ways to go about this. There’s the 12 step way, stay on your side of the street. And then there’s the “Christian” way, pray for him, make sure he is not too stressed out, submit to him, and all that. If you’re being betrayed, it’s your fault in some way or another. I’m like, no, it’s not because Christ was the most perfect person. But we’re not so bad. Like, the things that we do are totally normal and good. Anyone would do them. Just like we’d say, “If you go on this business trip, something bad’s gonna happen.” If Christ was perfect, giving Judas little indicators did not stop Judas from doing it. Why would any pastor, any therapist, or anybody out there be like, “Oh, the reason why he had this emotional affair was because you guys aren’t close emotionally.” Like, no, it is actually the opposite. We weren’t close emotionally, because he wasn’t coming to you with his emotions. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take our[ free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ## IT’S NOT YOUR FAULT, HERE’S WHY **Anne:** So from Matthew 26, we learned that this was Judas idea. In Matthew 26 :14, it says, “Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests,” so not the other way around. It’s not like the chief priests approached Judas. Judas approached them. In 15, “And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him to you?” And at that point they’re like, 30 pieces of silver. And then in 16 it says, “And from that time he \[as in Judas\] sought opportunity to betray him.” So it was intentional. He knew he was doing it. You know what these passages from the Bible on betrayal don’t say. They don’t say it was because Jesus always placed him last or prioritized Peter, James, and John before him. Nowhere does it imply that Judas betrayed Jesus due to a lack of attention. Instead, the scriptures make it clear—Judas made his choice. ## SCRIPTURES ON BETRAYAL: WHEN YOUR HUSBAND CHOOSES TO BETRAY YOU **Anne:** As far as prophecy goes, Christ says in verse 24, “The Son of man goeth as it is written of him:” So yeah, it’s been predicted I’m going to be captured and killed, but then Christ says, “but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.” Meaning, yes, I’m going to be captured and killed. That is true, but you don’t have to do it. Judas didn’t have to do it. Somebody else would’ve done it. There were many people who hated Jesus at this time. This like, well, “life is full of trials.” Sure, but does your husband have to be the one that causes all your trials? Does your husband have to be the one that makes things difficult? No, he doesn’t. He could make different choices. I don’t have this so much in my faith, but I hear from others that there’s this like sense that the devil made you do it, so it’s like the devil’s fault when it’s the opposite. The devil didn’t enter into Judas until after he’d made the deal, until after he’d taken action. So does the devil become involved if you’re Christian? I believe yes, from my study of the Bible verses on betrayal. **Jesse:** Yes. ## THE DEVIL DIDN’T MAKE HIM DO IT **Anne:** But only after you make the choice. Satan doesn’t make you do anything. **Jesse:** In my faith tradition. In recent years, more of a charismatic tradition. I wouldn’t say this is a primary belief in some circles, but there is the tendency to believe that there’s demonic activity to a significant level involved when people engage in destructive activity. Like we know, the devil steals, kills, and destroys. So anything that fits in that type of behavior gets labeled as demonic. It’s my opinion, at this point, that gets overused as an excuse: the devil made me do it. This person habitually cheats on their spouse or engages in destructive behaviors. So there’s a tendency to label that person as having a demon that’s “making them do this.” I don’t believe that today. You’re making those choices of your own free will. **Anne:** Yeah, in John 6:70-71, one of the Bible quotes on betrayal, Christ says Judas is a devil. **Jesse:** Wow, interesting. **Anne:** If someone is wicked or they are evil, who is the devil? The person doing it. **Jesse:** Yeah. **Anne:** So rather than the devil made me do it. I am doing the bad thing. Like I am wicked. I am the evil one. **Jesse:** I’m doing this, yes. **Anne:** Because if he wasn’t doing that bad thing, would the devil be involved? No, and who is the devil in that scenario? Not that he’s the devil with a capital D, but Christ himself calls people wicked, evil. He says about Judas, “one of you is a devil?” Not one of you is controlled by the devil or is possessed by the devil. One of you is. **Jesse:** Is, it’s pretty blunt. ## IS IT ME? LESSONS FROM THE SCRIPTURES ON BETRAYAL FOR MARRIAGES **Anne:** These men we’re married to, we can tell something isn’t right. We might not know what it is, because they’re lying to us, they’re manipulating us. Or maybe we know what it is. But even when we try to talk to them about it, we can’t figure out what’s going on. Because they lie. Christ is like, “Hey, one of you will betray me.” And Judas said, “Master, is it I?” He knows he’s already betrayed him. He knows he’s already made a deal with the head of the religion at the time. Christ was a rebel. He was going against the head of all of the religious authorities at the time. So, Judas is saying, “Is it me?” So you take your concerns to your husband and say, “I’m really concerned. Are you betraying me?” “Me, me? Am I betraying you?” When he is betraying you. So, you’re not gonna get a straight answer. Christ was perfect, and Judas lied to him. So, if any pastor or therapist tells you he’s lying to you because he doesn’t feel safe enough to tell you the truth, you can just be like, that’s just not true. Judas lies to Jesus’s face and acts like he doesn’t know if he’s gonna betray Jesus or not. When he already has betrayed him, and he’s planning on betraying him still, and the plan is in the works. Now, Jesus knows this. Some of us are aware of our husband’s lies. So let’s talk about that in the context of the scriptures on betrayal and our Savior, Jesus Christ. Because he knew what Judas’ character was. And maybe he’s still hoping Judas will make different choices. ## SCRIPTURES ON BETRAYAL: BIBLE VERSES ABOUT HOW TO FACE IT **Anne:** There are so many women who listen to the podcast, and they realize their husband is emotionally abusive. He’s psychologically abusive, he’s been lying to them. And I did it too. We try to get him help, and people blame us. “Why did you do that?” In the scriptures of Judas’ betrayal, Christ provides a profound example. He knew Judas was a betrayer—this is evident in John 6:70-71, long before the Last Supper. Yet, he chose not to dismiss him. The reason for this remains a mystery. I’ve heard that in some faith traditions, they attribute not necessarily good intentions to Judas, but maybe an explanation for why he did it. That gives him the benefit of the doubt. Which is heartbreaking, that someone would try to give Judas the benefit of the doubt, but then it doesn’t surprise me. Because they’re still doing it in the context of our husbands. They’re giving our husbands the benefit of the doubt, despite the awful choices he’s made. All of us have a devil in our house essentially. Someone who is making bad choices and betraying us, lying to us all the time, and undermining us. And somehow everybody wants to give him the benefit of the doubt. The therapist wants to give him the benefit of the doubt. The clergy wants to give him the benefit of the doubt, our neighbors. So I’m like, Oh, it happened with Judas too. They’re giving Judas the benefit of the doubt. That is so crazy to me. ## JUDAS’ GOOD INTENTIONS? **Jesse:** Many of Jesus’ followers believed that when the Messiah came, He was going to overthrow the Roman Empire. So it’s possible that Judas led the authorities to Jesus to force Him into a position where he would rise up and take his rightful place as the Messiah and overthrow the Romans. Obviously, he was greedy and he was selling Jesus out, but there was also that thought process that he might have been operating in sort of a nationalist type of way. Trying to force Jesus to do what he thought He came to do. **Anne:** There’s so much to learn about Judas’ character in these Bible verses on betrayal, on so many levels. If they say he had “good intentions,” because he was trying to force Jesus to do something. No, because the control aspect is not good intentions. If he loved Jesus, the first commandment is to love God. The second commandment is to love your neighbor. If you love this person and care about them, are you really gonna put ’em in a position where you’re forcing them to choose between death and rising up and starting a big old war? That’s extreme. The concept that somehow, someone was good because they’re willing to sell someone out, make them face death, and force them into this extremely awkward position for political gain, would we say? Was it politics back then? Who was in charge? Were the Romans in charge? Were the Jews in charge? You’re putting the people you love in danger. If Christ came to love and serve, and bring people together and have compassion for people, that’s like the opposite of what Christ wanted. and you’re trying to force Christ into a box. It doesn’t make sense. ## THE SCRIPTURES ON BETRAYAL: WHEN RELIGIOUS LEADERS CRITICIZE WOMEN FOR DOING THE RIGHT THING **Jesse:** Regardless, Judas benefited from being in Jesus’ circle. Whether his motivation was greed or whether it was political. Christ is growing in popularity because people are realizing who he is. Judas was benefiting from that. **Anne:** Yeah, maybe the reason Christ said you’re a devil is because he knew Judas was exploitative. John 12, showcases Judas. Judas’ exploitative character, where Mary anoints Jesus with expensive perfume, and he criticizes Mary. She’s not doing anything wrong. That all of us have experienced, we’re doing something good. We’re trying to protect our family, and we’re criticized no matter what we do. And then he lies and says he cares about poor people, he doesn’t. **Jesse:** She understood who Christ was. She was anointing him. So, that gives us an insight into Judas’ character and his understanding of Christ. ‘Cause he was criticizing her for doing what she did. **Anne:** I mean, here’s an apostle criticizing a woman for doing the right thing. **Jesse:** Yes. **Anne:** It’s a Biblical fact, in the scriptures. We can say this is Biblical, that men in religious positions criticize women when they’re doing the right thing. Here’s a prime example of that, and Jesus was not a fan. In that instance, Christ was there to call Judas out. **Jesse:** Yes. **Anne:** But when we’re in our pastor’s office or our bishop’s office, and we’re with our husband. And he’s criticizing us for not praying enough, or asking too many questions. That was what I got all the time. I ask too many questions. **Jesse:** Right. ## SCRIPTURE CALLS JUDAS A THIEF **Anne:** Jesus isn’t there in that moment to say, “Whoa, whoa, whoa. Nope, that’s not what’s happening.” And so it’s hard to tell. Because they’re your religious leader. Hopefully, by showing examples in scripture of how Jesus spoke, we can help women have Jesus in their heads. **Jesse:** Yes. **Anne:** Say, you’re not doing anything wrong. **Jesse:** Right. **Anne:** You’re okay. He’s the one doing the wrong thing. In John 12:6, we know Judas wasn’t doing this because he cared about the poor. Because it says, “not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief.” They use the word thief. The label of thief indicates someone who’s exploitative. They want something without earning it. They wanna steal it or take it from someone who has done the work. Like, you’ve done all the work to keep your family together. You’ve done all the work to have a good marriage. You’ve done all the work to ensure your kids are okay, and then he is a thief in that he just wants the fruits of all that without having to do any of it. **Jesse:** Right. **Anne:** So this word thief in these Bible verses on betrayal indicates that exploitative nature. ## THE SCRIPTURES OF JUDAS: JUSTIFYING EXPLOITATION **Jesse:** That’s right. If Judas justified what he was doing for political gain. Let’s say, for the “greater good” of all. My ex-husband could justify everything he was doing. I would ask him about planning for the future, and he would not wanna have a discussion about it. But then in the therapist’s office, he would talk about how he was planning for our future. So he had this ability to rationalize that he was doing those things when he wasn’t. **Anne:** So many women say I think he ended up believing his lies. And I think the jury’s still out on that one. It might’ve been he pretended to believe to get what he wanted. I think they know they’re lying. And the reason why I say that is because when I lie, I know. **Jesse:** Yes, now I believe he knew what he was doing. And he still knows what he’s doing. Because he’s capable of telling the truth when he wants to. He was skilled at giving bits and pieces of truth to me. **Anne:** As a tactic. **Jesse:** Where he could “honestly” say to me that he was telling me the truth. He just wasn’t telling me the whole truth. **Anne:** So he’s using truth to lie and get what he wants. In Judas’ case and the verses in the scriptures on betrayal, in Matthew 26, he actually makes a choice. He’s like, “Hey, you pay me. I’ll give Jesus up.” Now, this part to me does not make sense. The people who wanted to kill Jesus for sure knew who he was. ## JUDAS CAPITALIZED ON HIS BETRAYAL **Anne:** We know this was the case because Christ himself says in one of the scriptures on betrayal, Matthew 26:55, “Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye lay no hold on me.” These guys manufacture all this when you could have just come and taken me anytime. I was always out and about. Judas was trying to capitalize on his relationship with Christ for his own gain. And so are these husbands who don’t love their wives, who cheat on them and lie, but want the benefits of having a wife. They want someone to cook, clean and plan the trips. He could have been honest about it and said, “Hey, I don’t love you. I’d rather have sex with someone else”, or “I’d rather use pornography and masturbate than have sex with you.” But then they’d give up all the benefits she gives him. They’re not willing to be honest, because they’d have to give up those benefits they have not earned. So here again, he says the word “thief,” like you’re a thief, because you could’ve just openly come and captured me while I was out and about. It also shows he deliberately did it.They could have found him anywhere. That somebody needed to arrange where he would get caught is ridiculous. Also, Christ knew he was going to take upon him the sins of the world, be crucified. This was all going to happen, whether Judas was involved or not. I just really feel like Judas was like, “How can I benefit from this?” ‘Cause it’s going down anyway. It also shows he did it deliberately. ## THE SCRIPTURES OF JUDAS: HE DID IT DELIBERATELY (AFFAIRS ARE HARD WORK) **Anne:** Let’s talk about this for a minute. Men who have an affair. It takes work. **Jesse:** It does. A lot of work. **Anne:** They have to figure out how to get her phone number, or they have to text her. They have to figure out what lies to tell you. And none of these things are accidental. I’ve always laughed about this when teenagers, they’re like, “Oh, we accidentally had sex and she’s pregnant.” I’m like, so your pants accidentally unzipped and they accidentally came off, and your private parts accidentally went into her private parts. What are you talking about? There was no part of this that was accidental. There’s no part of this where you like fell into sin. **Jesse:** Yes. **Anne:** Was caught in sin. **Jesse:** Sometimes those things will be excused as a mistake. It takes the intention and personal responsibility out of it as something that you accidentally did, and that’s not true. **Anne:** I mean, it takes planning. It takes effort. I mean, that’s like saying I accidentally robbed a bank. **Jesse:** Yes, **Anne:** No, she just started kissing me. What was I supposed to do about it? I accidentally looked at explicit material. What are you talking about? I’ve literally never accidentally watched Star Trek. I’ve never accidentally, I don’t like the show Friends. I don’t enjoy it. I’ve never accidentally watched it ever. If it comes on, I just turn it off. So these guys are not accidentally watching explicit material, they’re seeking it out. Like in these scriptures of Judas’ betrayal, he sought the priests. **Jesse:** Exactly. ## SELF CONTROL IN SCRIPTURE ISN’T GENDER SPECIFIC **Anne:** If they do run into it, just like I might run into “Friends”, then I just turn it. It’s like not a big deal. There’s no accidental, I viewed pornography for three hours and masturbated, no. **Jesse:** Yeah, exactly. Yes, like they have no self control. A lot of the Christian marriage literature I read painted men as not having any self-control. Women were painted as the gatekeepers of sexuality, and we either needed to ensure that our husbands were satisfied, on demand whenever they wanted it or needed it. It was touted as a need for men. If we did not do that, of course, they were going to stray because we were not meeting their needs. Self-control in scriptures on betrayal is not gender specific. We’re all supposed to have it and be able to control ourselves. **Anne:** Well, like what were they supposed to do before they got married? **Jesse:** Exactly. **Anne:** If you’re in a coma, like does that justify either raping you in your hospital bed to be graphic about it or having an affair? Because apparently they must have sex. That’s so crazy. **Jesse:** A very specific example: When we were in counseling, my ex-husband told me he needed sex to be connected with me. The way that played out in reality after we had sex, he would go off and do whatever he was gonna do, engage in his hobbies, go to work, whatever. And then he wanted sex again. Then he’d be gone again. The Christian literature did not help, because it fed that narrative that it’s the way men connect. And I had to do that first to establish emotional connection. And that never happened. ## THE OTHER DISCIPLES DIDN’T KNOW: LYING IN PLAIN SIGHT OF EVERYONE **Anne:** And so that means it’s a lie, and that means it was always manipulation because you’re always hoping. And this happens with couple therapy too. It happens with pastoral counseling. You’re always hoping the next session will be the breakthrough. Every intimate time, maybe then you’ll feel emotionally connected. But it never comes, because it was all a lie to manipulate you to have sex whenever he wanted, but he didn’t care about you. He was just using you. So we talked about before the devil didn’t make him do it. He is the devil, Christ says. Then he says in one of the verses on betrayal, “One of you will betray me.” We know people heard it because everybody asks, “Is it I?” He says, “I’m going to dip the bread and give it to the person who will betray me.” This reminds me of a dinner I had with my family. My ex is there, my whole family is there. I talked about this on the Josh Powell episode, ’cause it was right after Josh Powell had murdered his kids. So I’m sitting at dinner with everyone, and I’m like, “Hey, if anything happens to me, Chuck did it.” And I said it in front of him and my family, ’cause I thought that would keep me safe. So, I wonder if Christ is like, maybe if I out him in front of everybody, then he is not gonna do it. And then, Judas eats it. I’m like, why did he eat it? I’m wondering if he was like, well, everybody else ate their bread. ## IF JUDAS DIDN’T REPENT WHEN CHRIST CONFRONTED HIM, WHY WOULD YOUR HUSBAND REPENT WHEN HE’S CONFRONTED? **Anne:** So, I’m going to eat it and be like, of course it’s not me, but I have to eat the bread ’cause everybody else did. I don’t know what was going through his mind, but that’s interesting to me that he ate it. Part of me thinks that when we have proof, we know that he is texting a coworker or something, and we take that and put it in front of him. And the thought is he’ll be like, “You got me.” So in this instance, I can imagine they’re like, this is Christ. Do they know that he’s perfect? This is a question I’ve been wondering. He’s their friend. He does stuff on Sunday, and they’re like, you’re not supposed to do that on Sunday. They question him. So we know he’s perfect, but they might not have truly understood because they’re seeing him do some things that aren’t traditional, that aren’t within cultural norms, so here’s Judas’ thinking. “What do I do? He’s calling me out in front of everybody.” And it reminds me a little bit of when you have proof. They don’t respond the way you think. And so if you have thought, “I’m gonna show him this, and then he’ll have no choice but to repent.” Know that our Savior, Jesus Christ, also was like, “Hey, the person I’m gonna give this bread to is the person who betrayed me.” In these scriptures on betrayal, Judas still did it. If you’ve enrolled in the [Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/), you’ll understand why these strategies don’t work and what Christ taught us to do. ## OFFER THE TRUTH & LET THEM GO **Anne:** There are verses on betrayal and several places where Christ talks about what to do with someone who is dangerous, which he actually did with Judas. He let Judas have his own way. **Jesse:** Yes, there are several instances in scripture on betrayal where Jesus confronts people. He gives them the opportunity to accept the truth. But he does not pursue them and continue to say, “Hey, I’m telling you the truth here. Why aren’t you believing me? I’m the Messiah.” He just doesn’t do that. He offers the truth and lets them go on their merry way. Something that as a Christ follower and wife, I got a lot of mixed messages on that: don’t say too much because he’s your husband, he’s busy, he’s working hard, he’s stressed out, so don’t overburden him with all these worries that you have. I was encouraged more to go after my husband in his love languages, like his need for physical touch, or making sure the home was kept just right. The lesson from scripture for me now is that Jesus presented the truth to people. He let them go and do what they were going to do. You said two things there that I thought were interesting. The part, like, don’t burden him. This type of, I’m gonna say “Christian” teaching is a double standard, because he is supposed to be like Christ. And Christ wants you to take all your burdens to him. But apparently you are the one who’s supposed to bear all the burdens, and you’re not supposed to take any of your burdens to him. that’s a problem. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## THE SCRIPTURES OF JUDAS: BETRAYAL WAS HAPPENING THE WHOLE TIME **Anne:** The second one, so many people talk in these verses on betrayal about Judas’ betrayal of Jesus, as if it happened the night he actually gave him up. But it was happening the whole time, it’s happening when he criticizes Mary and throws her under the bus. It’s happening when he actually makes the deal with the religious authorities. It’s happening the whole time. So when Jesus says, “The person I give the bread to will betray me.” Judas already betrayed him. He has a history. If we were in Christ’s position, not if we are Christ, but if we’re there, and Judas is our husband at the dinner. And we’re like, “Hey, he’s gonna betray me if he keeps doing this stuff.” Let’s just imagine all the people involved with this. They’re all sitting around the table and you’re like, this is what’s happening. He’s gonna betray me. Now in that moment, what did they tell us? They told us to pray for him. They told us to go to couple therapy. So in that moment where Judas takes the bread, Christ isn’t like, “Hold on, push pause on this whole thing. Can somebody call a couple therapist.” He didn’t say, “Wait, can you guys, hold on? I’m gonna pray so hard, it’s going to fix Judas, and I’m gonna come out and he is not gonna betray me anymore.” That does not happen. Instead, what does Christ say in that moment? He says, “Whatever you’re gonna do, do it fast.” **Jesse:** Yes. **Anne:** Paraphrasing, whatever you’re about to do, get on with it. ## JESUS DIDN’T NEED TO CHANGE TO PREVENT JUDAS’ BETRAYAL **Anne:** A lot of us feel this urgency, like something’s gotta change. We get to that point. But in scriptures on betrayal, instead of everyone else being like, “Jesus got to that point too. I get it, good for you. You’re following the Savior’s example.” Instead, they’re like, no, no, no. Hold, wait, wait, wait, go to couple therapy, get pastoral counseling. Have you prayed about it? Are you staying on your side of the street? In that moment, he does not pursue Judas. He doesn’t try to get Judas to change. He doesn’t do anything about Judas. Also, he also doesn’t do anything about himself. He’s not like, I need to go to 12 Step, or I need to be a better communicator, or I need to change so that Judas doesn’t betray me. **Jesse:** Right, I’m certain he’s been aware of Judas behavior all along. It’s hard to reconcile that Christ would allow Judas to still be part of his inner circle behaving that way. But he finally gets to that point, and I think this is the lesson certainly for me. When you’ve said all the things. And you’ve tried everything you knew to do, to reach your husband. Saying, “Hey, I see this thing happening. I’m not comfortable with it. Please pay attention to our marriage. Please protect our marriage.” And you realize they’re still gonna pursue this person, or they’re still gonna pursue pornography. I finally got to the point where I was like I don’t wanna live the rest of my life trying to figure out what the truth is. Trying to figure out when the next relationship will happen. ## SCRIPTURES ON BETRAYAL: BETRAYED WITH A KISS **Anne:** Because you’ve been able to see his character. He’s been betraying the whole time. I wanna make that clear. And then wouldn’t even say final act of betrayal, actually. ‘Cause we’ll talk about more betrayal that happens afterwards. He kisses him. How many of us have been betrayed with a kiss? They kiss us, act like they love us or care about us when they’re just exploiting us. In our case, this is sexual coercion. Where they’re lying to us about what they’re doing. And Judas said the same thing. Now, I wanna pause here and talk about the difference between Judas betraying Christ the whole time and the night that Peter denies the Savior. So here’s another example in the Bible on betrayal and Christ prophesying. But I’m starting to believe this was more of a directive, because Peter is a good person. No one ever called him a devil. And Christ says, “Before the cock crows, you’re gonna deny me three times.” I’m wondering now if it was a directive, “Look, these people wanna kill you. I don’t want you to die. I want you to be alive so that my work can continue. So you will deny me three times.” And maybe Peter’s like, “But I don’t wanna deny you.” And he is like, “No, you’re going to,” and then in the moment Peter’s like, “Oh, I get it. They might kill me. So, yeah, I don’t know him.” The [Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) talks a lot about these, I’ll say ethical and moral quandaries, where we’re sometimes to choose between our safety and being honest with someone who’s trying to exploit us. Our intentions are to protect ourselves. ## SCRIPTURES ON BETRAYAL: PETER WAS DIFFERENT **Anne:** Whereas if they say, “Hey, I was just trying to protect myself from you.” Their intention is to exploit you, but they’re lying about protecting themselves ’cause they don’t need any protection. After Peter does that, the rest of his life he tries to spread the gospel. He’s like, “I did survive. I felt bad about denying him that night, and the rest of my life, I will try to bring people to Christ.” There are so many examples in the Bible on betrayal and people who do terrible things. And then they repent, and they spend the rest of their lives as a missionary. Paul’s one of those. So, Judas could have been like, “Oh, I really messed up. I’m gonna spend the rest of my life making amends for this.” Judas does not do that. So this is one other thing I want women to think about. A lot of us are like, if I could just get him to feel remorse, if I could just get him to understand. If he has an exploitative character and does feel remorse. We don’t know what he felt remorse for. Did he feel remorse that like Jesus was crucified and he couldn’t use Jesus anymore? **Jesse:** Hmm. **Anne:** He couldn’t use him for political reasons. His political aspirations are dead in the water if he was riding on Christ’s coattails to do that. And because he doesn’t actually believe in him as a Savior. ## LOOK FOR THE FRUIT OF REPENTANCE **Anne:** What reason does he have to look to his teachings anymore or any of the principles of the gospel? Whereas Peter actually believed the principles of the gospel and wanted to teach them to people. But Judas doesn’t have any faith or hope. So I want women to remember that if he has an exploitative character, remorse will not do anything. **Jesse:** Right, it’s not gonna bear good fruit. I think it actually mentions in one of the translations of these scriptures that Judas had worldly sorrow. Whereas if it’s a Christlike fruit of the spirit type of sorrow, Godly sorrow. You’re prone to return to Christ where your hope comes from. And return to repentance, truly feeling sorry for whatever harm you’ve caused. The worldly sorrow tends to be more self-centered. I’m sorry I got caught. I’m sorry I’m experiencing pain. **Anne:** I’m sorry that I can’t exploit him anymore. **Jesse:** Right. **Anne:** I’m sorry I can’t have my cake and eat it too. Men who want to use explicit material and also have a family. They might express remorse that they can’t do both. It seems so genuine when they’re talking to us. To think of them feeling really bad is actually true. It’s just that they’re lying to you about what they’re feeling bad about. **Jesse:** Right. **Anne:** Because Judas didn’t do anything to help the cause after that. ## SCRIPTURES ON BETRAYAL: FOLLOWING CHRIST’S EXAMPLE **Anne:** So to recap, what can we learn from the Bible about betrayal and the way Jesus handled Judas betraying him, the whole time Judas exploitative character? Number one, Jesus saw Judas character through his actions. He never sugarcoated it. He called out what was happening in real time, when Judas was doing it with Mary. And he warned what would happen if Judas didn’t change. Despite those warnings and clear indicators from the Savior himself, Judas kept lying, exploiting, and betraying. So if somebody tells you to stop shaming your husband, or to quit sharing his so-called “mistakes” with other people, or to stop being judgmental. Feel free to roll your eyes at them. Following Christ’s example means speaking the truth plainly and boldly, and calling out truth isn’t wrong. It’s never been wrong, and anyone who tells you it is, that’s manipulation so he can continue to exploit the situation. So if he doesn’t change or gets worse, none of it has anything to do with you being honest. I say that, while also saying the Living Free strategies show the part I talked about with Peter, like how to protect yourself when you are in danger. It’s important to know what those strategies are. Because Christ himself says there are times when it’s not safe to say the truth boldly. Like, don’t cast your pearls before swine, agree quickly with an adversary. ## 1. YOU STATING THE TRUTH IS NOT THE PROBLEM **Anne:** I cover this in detail during the Living Free Workshop, so I encourage you to check it out. But first, let me be clear—stating the truth is not the problem. Searching Bible verses on betrayal helped me find strength and clarity on this. ## 2. JESUS WAS PERFECT & SOMEONE STILL BETRAYED HIM **Anne:** Number two, Jesus is perfect, and someone still betrayed him. So if anyone’s telling you that if you prayed more or did something different, your husband wouldn’t have betrayed you, that is a lie. There’s nothing you could have done. It was all his choices. ## 3. REMORSE: WHAT ARE HIS ACTIONS TELLING YOU **Anne:** And number three, if your husband has a deceitful, exploitative character, even if he seems to feel “remorse”, it will not lead to repentance. So if you’re trying to observe, does he have this type of character? And he’s had those moments where he seemed remorseful before. And he continued to do it. You don’t have to find out again. Just like Jesus already knew long before the final betrayal. But I’m gonna say the final betrayal was that he didn’t spend the rest of his life making amends for what he’d done. He just completely gave up on the gospel, altogether. Because Judas had the character that he did, remorse won’t help him. So if you’ve been thinking there’s something you could do to get him to feel that, it wouldn’t necessarily lead to what you’re hoping for. It’s really sad. So like our Savior, women want peace. They want a peaceful home. That’s what I wanted, you wanted, and what all of us want. Following Christ example, Judas didn’t change. We can be confident knowing that it has nothing to do with us. **Jesse:** Right, it’s manipulative to put the pressure on wives in our cases to keep us caught in this cycle of doing whatever the next thing is to try to get our husbands to change, to repent or to feel sorrow. Having sex in order to get him to connect with me emotionally felt manipulative to me. Because I’m doing something in order for him to be nice to me. ## YOU’RE NOT DOING ANYTHING WRONG **Jesse:** I shouldn’t have to do that. But most of the Christian teachings I read and was exposed to didn’t frame it that way. It framed it as my duty, and he needed that to connect with me. **Anne:** Yeah, no one says, Christ, if you just prayed more, Judas wouldn’t have done that. Maybe if you spent more time with him alone, maybe you paid too much attention to Peter, James, and John, and you weren’t paying enough attention to Judas. I’m thinking he’d be like, “What are you talking about? The reason I didn’t wanna hang out with Judas as much as Peter is ’cause he was a pain in the butt. What do you mean? It’s not me, it’s Judas.” **Jesse:** Yes, exactly. **Anne:** Why would I wanna hang out with him? He is not a good person. Like, why would I wanna have sex with my husband? He is not nice to me. **Jesse:** Exactly. **Anne:** This is crazy town. I think he would say that, because of my study of bible verses about betrayal. So I think he would be like, “You’re not doing anything wrong, Jesse and all listeners.” I did the same thing, and Judas still betrayed me. **Jesse:** That’s what I love about the Living Free Strategies. The way the strategies are laid out helps identify your own thought processes and their thought processes. For me, as a believer, as a Christ follower, it helped me question, why am I believing this thing my husband is telling me? Because my body tells me something’s not right. You want to believe what your husband tells you is true, but when their behaviors give you something else, you have cognitive dissonance. ## LIVING FREE STRATEGIES **Jesse:** Telling me that he needs me to tell him what to do in our relationship, but he seems to have no problem figuring out what to do to reach out to this other person. So Living Free gave me a framework where I could actually write things down and analyze if it is really true. The exercises really made things clear. Helping me discern when he’s lying to me, what is actually happening here. And what do I do to have peace and love that I desire and I am worthy of having? **Anne:** You are, all listeners right now are worthy of love and a healthy relationship. And a therapist or other type of coach might tell you if he’s unhealthy, then you are. And that’s not true. You could be the healthiest person like Jesus Christ, and have a relationship with an unhealthy person who betrays you. The Living Free strategies give women mental, psychological and emotional space to observe truth. **Jesse:** Yes. **Anne:** That’s the hardest part of all this. What is actually going on? Who is he in relation to me? What am I to him? Living Free makes that clear, because I just don’t think divorce is the solution. Maybe a domestic violence shelter will tell you that divorce will solve all your problems. I’m grateful I’m divorced. Would I ever tell a woman not to get divorced? No, if she wants to get divorced, go for it. But my ex abused me post-divorce for eight years. If you share kids, figuring out the strategic way to see him for who he is. Whether married or not, is so important. Because he’s going to be that person, just like Judas was no matter what. ## LEARNING STRATEGIES TO HELP YOU **Anne:** People are like, oh, just don’t let him affect you, while he’s emotionally punching you in the face. You’ve got an emotional bruise. There’s nothing you can do about that bruise. It doesn’t matter if you’re married or divorced, he’s still going to affect you, even if he’s just texting you about your kids. Learning these strategies while you’re married, divorced, or whatever your situation is no matter what’s going to happen, is really important. Because no matter what, metaphorically, there’s no way you can get punched in the face and not get a bruise. Jesse, thanks for helping me sort all this out. There are lots of things to think about. Thank you so much for being here to talk about this today. **Jesse:** Yeah, I’ve really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast **Tags:** gaslighting --- ### [How to Know: Is My Husband Cheating on Me?](https://www.btr.org/feel-like-my-husband-is-cheating/) **Published:** September 23, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Have an nagging dread, like your husband is cheating? You need to know this. **Content:** If you’ve been sensing: “I think my husband is cheating…” If so, you’re not alone. Many women describe the same experience: - A constant sense that something is “off” - A feeling of dread they can’t explain - Questioning themselves: *“Am I paranoid?”* The truth is, there are patterns you can look for, but there’s also something deeper happening that most advice ignores. This how to guide will walk you through how to know if your husband is cheating. ## SIGNS YOUR HUSBAND IS CHEATING ### STEP 1: PAY ATTENTION TO PATTERNS – NOT PROMISES If your husband is cheating, you may notice patterns like: - Lying or inconsistent stories - Sudden anger or rage when you ask simple questions - Gaps in time you can’t account for - Defensiveness that shifts the focus onto you These behaviors matter more than what he says. Instead of focusing on his explanations, focus on what actually happens over time. 👉 Ask yourself: **Do his actions match reality—or just his words?** ### STEP 2: DON’T IGNORE THAT “SOMETHING IS OFF” FEELING One of the most confusing parts of suspected infidelity is this: You may feel something is wrong…but you can’t actually see that anything’s wrong. Many women dismiss this instinct because: - They don’t want to accuse falsely - They’ve been told they’re overreacting - They can’t “prove” anything Instead of asking: “Can I prove he’s cheating?” 👉Ask yourself: **“What am I consistently experiencing?”** ### STEP 3: SEEK TRUTH FROM THE RIGHT PLACE It’s natural to want clarity. So many women: - Ask him direct questions - Try to catch him in inconsistencies - Hope he’ll finally admit what’s happening But if your husband is lying about cheating, he’s going to keep lying about it. So asking him to clarify will only leads to more confusion. Instead of asking: **“How do I get the truth from him?”** 👉Ask yourself: **“How do I observe the truth for myself?”** ### STEP 4: LOOK AT HIS CHARACTER, NOT JUST HIS BEHAVIOR If your husband is cheating, you may also see patterns like: - Lack of accountability - Entitlement - Blaming you for his actions - Prioritizing his needs at your expense Instead of asking: “Is he cheating?” 👉Ask yourself: **“What does his overall character show me?”** ### STEP 5: CREATE A TIMELINE One of the most powerful ways to gain clarity is to write out a timeline of your relationship. It will help you see signs your husband is cheating (or not). Include: - Incidents that didn’t make sense - Times you felt confused or dismissed - Patterns of behavior over months or years When you see everything in one place, patterns can become clear. 👉Ask yourself: **What do I see what I take a step back and look at the whole picture?** ### STEP 6: YOU DON’T NEED PROOF TO FEEL VALID Many women are led to think: “I can’t trust myself unless I have evidence.” But that’s not true. You don’t need: - A confession - Physical evidence - Someone else’s validation to take your experience seriously. You may actually be experiencing emotional abuse. To see, take my free [emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). 👉 Ask yourself: **“What do I already know based on what I’ve lived?”** ### STEP 7: GET SUPPORT THAT BRINGS CLARITY Trying to figure this out alone can feel overwhelming. Especially when you - have been told you’re overreacting - are accused of causing the problems in your marriage - feel isolated You deserve support that validates your intuItion. If you’re ready to stop second-guessing yourself and start seeing things clearly, support is available. 👉Ask yourself: **What type of support do I need?** Join our daily [online infidelity support group](/group/) Laurie Hall, author of *An Affair of the Mind*, couldn’t prove her husband was cheating. But no matter how hard she tried, the feeling of dread wouldn’t go away. Laurie shares her powerful story. ![My Husband Cheated Again](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/My-Husband-Cheated-Again.webp "My Husband Cheated Again")## TRANSCRIPT: SIGNS YOUR HUSBAND IS CHEATING **Anne:** Today, I have Laurie Hall with me. She’s the author of *An Affair of the Mind.* She wrote the first book about addiction written from the perspective of the partner. And it broke ground in a world that saw the partner as codependent and just as sick, in her own way, as the addict, which we know isn’t true. And Laurie knew wasn’t true, even then. Laurie refused to accept that view and advocated for partners. She said they were betrayed and traumatized, when they feel like their husband is cheating. Laurie you talk about how prayer helped you discover your husband’s addiction. Can you talk about that? **Laurie:** Yes, this is a great place to start the discussion of how this whole issue can lead to a spiritual crisis. Because I knew there were problems in my marriage, I didn’t know what I was dealing with. My ex-husband grew up in the mission field. He had a White House security clearance when I met him. Everyone who knew him said, Oh, he’s a super nice, squeaky clean guy. So I really thought I was marrying a boy scout, but there was just this sense that something wasn’t right. And I kept trying to figure out what it was. ![I Just Caught My Partner Cheating](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/I-Just-Caught-My-Partner-Cheating.webp "I Just Caught My Partner Cheating")And I went to my church for help. Because as a young Christian woman, I wanted to know how to do marriage God’s way. They told me I needed to submit more, that I needed to support him more, that I needed to pray for him more and every remedy they gave me. They put me further and further under. At one point, I thought, well, they said you’re too strong. If you were not as strong, he would be stronger. ## TURNING TO SCRIPTURE IF YOU SUSPECT YOUR HUSBAND IS CHEATING **Laurie:** And I just kept thinking, well, wait a minute. I’ve read all the books, become a fascinating woman, a total woman. I’ve become the he’s from Home Depot, she’s from Walmart woman, and nothing was working. And it was still just this sense that something was wrong. I decided to put all the outside advice outside and spend time back in scripture. Which I already was a student of the Bible, but I was reading the Bible based on what other people told me it meant. So I began to go into the word, and I started to pray. You know Lord, if I’m otherwise minded, Christ Jesus shows me what it is and shows me what’s going on in my marriage. Because I know there’s something, and I don’t know what it is. But I know you know what it is, because you are the God of all truth. So show me what the truth is. I prayed this for years. Part of what happened was that I came to a different understanding. ![How to Check Husband Cheating](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Check-Husband-Cheating.webp "How to Check Husband Cheating")That I had of who God is before I could even grasp the truth of if my husband is cheating. So I began to see God in a bigger, more empowering, more loving way as I studied the word, and then I decided to start fasting. And so the first time I fasted, I got this impression in my head that was almost like a voice saying to me, there’s three problems in your marriage. ## CONFRONTING HIS CHEATING **Laurie:** The first one is your husband’s taken $350 that doesn’t belong to him. The second is he’s committing adultery. And the third is that he has a lot of pride. At that point, I was like, okay, this is what comes of trying to fast and pray. You’ve now gone completely nuts. Because you’re hearing a voice. I was like, why did you do this to yourself? Because obviously none of that can be true. I married a boy scout, and sure enough, shortly after that, I found out about the $350. He confessed he had a lot of pride, and that left this little nasty thing in the middle, which was the adultery. And I said, I think you’re committing adultery. And he said, oh no, I would never do that. You’re a horrible person for believing that. Why would you even accuse me of that? You’re probably the one doing it. I continued to pray and seek the Lord. And eventually I started having dreams, and I started having dreams where I would see exactly what was going on. Then I decided that what I was going to do was accept that this is the truth. Whether I had any evidence. Because my husband hid everything. Even his best friend who worked with him didn’t know what he was doing. I began to journal. I said, I feel like my husband is cheating me. And I don’t know what to do about it, but I’m turning it all over to God. ![How to Find Spouse Cheating](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Find-Spouse-Cheating.webp "How to Find Spouse Cheating")## VALIDATION & SUPPORT WHEN I SEE SIGNS MY HUSBAND IS CHEATING **Laurie:** And one day as I was praying, the phone rang and it was a woman I barely knew. She said, God has heard your prayers and seen your tears, and he’s going to heal you. And within … **Anne:** Wow. **Laurie:** … an hour, there was a phone call from a credit card company I did not know. My husband had a credit card, and there was a past due payment, and that’s how the truth came out that my husband was cheating. **Anne:** Wow, I am so impressed. Because I had dreams, nightmares, and I just thought I was crazy. And I have this like super intense sense of dread that I told my husband about. And I was like, I have the worst sense of dread. I think something bad’s going to happen. And then in the same breath, without listening to him or waiting for his response, I said, ah, I must be crazy, right? I just kind of dismissed it. So I am like, so impressed that you were like, no, I will take these dreams and feelings as the truth. That is gutsy. ![Ways to Find out if Your Partner is Cheating](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Ways-To-Find-Out-if-Your-Partner-Is-Cheating.webp "Ways to Find out if Your Partner is Cheating")**Laurie:** Well, you know, let me back up and tell you how not gutsy I was and what actually forced me to that position. Because just like you, I thought I was going nuts. I actually one day climbed into bed, put the covers over my head, and started running my finger up and down my mouth. Like I said, I am going crazy because part of me says there’s something wrong and this is what it is. And the other part of me doesn’t know how that could possibly be true. ## THE TRUTH: MY HUSBAND IS CHEATING **Laurie:** And therefore, I’m choosing to ignore what I’ve asked God to show me. And so I’m going to have to take a giant leaf of faith and say, this is the truth, my husband is cheating. If I’m wrong, hey, I’ll own it, but from here on out, I’m not second guessing myself anymore. So I get it, girlfriend. I was there. It was that period when I was going to go crazy that made me say, yes, I’m accepting the truth. **Anne:** Your story is so incredible. I mean now, many women have determined their husband’s true character through the steps I teach in [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. And you can get more information about that by clicking on this link.](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) It will help you determine your husband’s true character. And many women have said they’ve prayed and been led to the Living Free Workshop, and it helped them see the truth of what’s going on. But back in your day, you didn’t have any resources like Betrayal Trauma Recovery, or anything else. And so you just decided to trust yourself. And that is incredible. That’s one thing that the Living Free Workshop does teach women to do. Like how to get in touch with their sacred internal warning system, so they can discover the truth of their situation. **Laurie:** I completely agree with you on that. Can we say it? How awful is it that your worst nightmare is actually true? Okay. I mean, this is not the thing you wake up to and accept. Okay. It’s an awful, awful thing. I mean, the ground drops underneath your feet. On the one hand, you’re happy to know you weren’t nuts. ## UNDERSTANDING SPIRITUAL SENSES **Laurie:** On the other hand, you’re like, I wished I would have been nuts, because this new reality is something I don’t want to deal with, but we are not trained how to live in the spirit. This was a big aha for me, because when I realized I have a body that has senses in it. It has the sense of touch, sight, taste, hearing, smell. And through those senses, I experience the physical world. I have a soul, which allows me to know my internal world, and those senses are my mind, my will, and my emotions. So I shouldn’t ignore that my gut is telling me my husband is cheating. But I also have a spirit, and it is through my spirit that I know God, and that I experience others in a transcendent way, where deep connects to deep. And this has nothing to do with what I can see with my eyes. But it is an inner knowing that we have, and our spirit senses are conscience, intuition, and communion. And we’re designed to operate from the spirit into the soul and out into the body. So when we intuit something, it is God speaking to us, the absolute truth. And the idea would be that if we’re operating in a healthy way, we take that information into our mind. And provide instructions for our mind based on what our conscience tells us. This is a good situation, or this is not a good situation. And then the will tells the body what to do in response. And as the body follows these instructions, our emotions are at peace because we’re in integrity. ## MIND VS. SPIRIT CONFLICT IF I FEEL LIKE MY HUSBAND IS CHEATING **Laurie:** One of the ways we can know that we’re not in integrity. And I don’t mean this in the sense that we’re intentionally doing something we know is wrong, but where we are second guessing our spirit. Because when our mind doesn’t have the facts, we argued, spirit and the mind argue. You know what I mean? It’s like, no, that can’t be true. I have no evidence. Yes, it is true because God sees it as it is, but our mind doesn’t see it. I mean, I only saw exploitative material in our home one time. And we were married for 33 years. So I had no physical evidence. As you know, this particular addiction, there’s no needle marks, there’s no telltale breath. It’s very easy to hide. **Anne:** Yeah. **Laurie:** When your emotions are a mess, it is a sign that your spirit is arguing with your soul. Because your soul doesn’t have any facts to back up what your spirit is sensing. And so you’re second guessing yourself. But if you say what I’m sensing, I’m going to accept that as true until proven otherwise. And then start lining your actions up with that, you will find peace in the midst of the storm. **Anne:** Wow, this is cool, to accept that you could be right about your husband cheating. I love you. **Laurie:** I love you. It only took 20 years to figure that out. **Anne:** When did you write your book? What year was it? **Laurie:** It came out in 1996. **Anne:** 1996, man, I’m just thinking, I know so many women who are your age or older who went through this. And they, of no fault, didn’t know what was going on, didn’t understand it, and were abused for years. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## MY JOB ACCORDING TO THE CHURCH **Anne:** I am just in awe that you’re part of this generation of women caught in all cultural issues. All the misogynistic things that at the time were common that you couldn’t even see. And you had this head on your shoulders to see this thing straight. You’re like a hero. You’re my Shero. Good job, way to go. I think many other women saw it, but they didn’t write a book. Many women kind of figured out what was going on. But then it was super scary to speak out about it back then. And it still is now. I mean, sometimes people think I’m crazy. So once you knew about your husband’s cheating, did you go to your church for help? And if you did, what happened? **Laurie:** Yes, I did. As a woman of faith, I wanted to handle this God’s way. I can remember saying, what are the rules? What are the rules? What are the rules? And so I went to my church. I entered a buzz saw when I did that. And I was told things like, well, I needed to pray for him. I was the more spiritual and mature and therefore it was my responsibility to pray for my husband. And then if I would just pray for him and trust God, he would become a man who would stand at the gates. Okay, they quoted proverbs for me. That was my job. To create that in him, I was told I needed to be more available. I was told I had to be more submissive, that no matter what he said or did, I needed to trust God in the middle of all that. ## CHURCH’S NAIVETY & MISGUIDANCE **Laurie:** I can remember sitting there in my pastor’s office, and I just wanted him to say, adultery is wrong. That’s all I wanted him to say. He didn’t have to give any magic solutions, or I just wanted him to say to me what has happened to you is wrong. And instead, he told me that it was obvious why my husband was doing this, because I was such a strong woman. And he was totally lined up with my husband. I can remember going to a Christian counselor, and my husband had taken some money from one of our children. And as part of his making amends, he was supposed to apologize and return the money. Just before we went to see the therapist the next time, this child came to me and said, you know, dad still hasn’t dealt with this issue. And this child was sobbing. I mean, it’s breaking my mother’s heart to see my child suffer like that. So we went to see the therapist, my ex-husband went in first. And when I got in, the therapist was thrilled, because my husband had cooked up this story about how he had gone to the child and apologized, and given the money back, everything was great. I sat there with my mouth open, and I said, no, that’s not what happened. He’s like, What? And I said, no, none of that happened. This is where the church is so naive. And believe me, I’m not trying to slam Christianity. This man said, well, he wouldn’t lie to me. And what he was saying is that he lies to you because you’re too hard on him. He didn’t believe the my truth, that I knew he was cheating. ## WOMEN’S STRUGGLES WITH CHURCH LEADERSHIP **Laurie:** You’re not on his team. And if you would just be on his team, he wouldn’t need to lie to you. But I’m on his team, and he knows I’m on his team. So he wouldn’t lie to me. **Anne:** Like you’re the problem. You caused his lying, right? **Laurie:** Exactly, that’s it. I’ve received so many letters, and so many tell similar stories. I’ve had women suicidal because their church disciplined them because they dared to try to get help. Also I’ve had women who were excommunicated. They’re shamed. They’re made to be accountable to another woman in the church for whether they’re properly submitting and praying for their husband. And are they giving their husband it? Because of course, that’s a woman’s responsibility. You know, don’t withhold yourself. And I want to believe these people are well intentioned, although at some point I began to doubt. Especially when I saw the size of the problem in the leadership of the church, because many, many, many pastors have this issue. They’re so naive about how real life operates that they have this fantasy that if we just do A, B, and C, then everything will be okay. And that marriage is all about roles instead of relationship. So they teach marriage as roles, and therefore, you know, the husband is ahead of the home. The wife must submit to him. The children must obey the parents. What it does is create dysfunction. Because you don’t learn how to be in a real relationship. When marriage is all about power, who has the most power? There’s no listening, negotiation, conflict resolution, and there’s no way to be truly intimate. ## BEING ON THE SAME TEAM **Laurie:** How to recognize and celebrate each other’s strengths, and how to support each other in weakness. Because if somebody is weak, if your husband is cheating, especially if they’re at the top, everybody’s going to be scared because they’re vulnerable. Instead of this is a team effort. let’s pool our resources here. **Anne:** I always felt like I was on the same team with my husband, my ex now, but that he was always in competition with me. Yes, I couldn’t understand that. And I thought, well, we’re on the same team. Like I’m trying to solve a problem. Let’s solve it together. But he didn’t like the resolution of the problem if it wasn’t his idea. And then I found him taking credit for the things I had done. Instead of saying, Oh, my wife did this. She’s amazing. He took credit for it himself. I started to be really bothered. We’re not on a team. Like he sees me as some kind of minion, like to set him up higher and higher. Or the better I look, the better he looks, not the better we look. Does that make sense? **Laurie:** It totally does. You can see how that worldview feeds into the narcissism of the addict. **Anne:** Yeah. **Laurie:** The goal is to be admired, right? **Anne:** Right, and the more you love them and forgive them, submit and serve them, and all those things, the more their abusive behaviors get them what they want. The reason why men use these abusive behaviors, manipulation, lying, etc., is because they get stuff out of it. If they didn’t get anything out of it, they wouldn’t do it. ## MALE CHURCH LEADERS & EXPLOITATIVE MATERIAL **Anne:** Number one, and number two, unless they stop getting something out of it, they’re not going to stop. **Laurie:** That’s right. **Anne:** Yeah, it’s working for them. So the whole love forgiveness service type stuff, which are all wonderful values. But the abuser just continues to get all the things they want, and they have none of the accountability. In fact, the women are held accountable, like what you said. **Laurie:** Yes, and that’s a sad thing. You know, these women are going into a church with all male leadership. And this is hard to talk about, Anne, because, I mean, my relationship with God is important to me. And I don’t want to needlessly put the church in a bad light. I’m just saying, talking to hundreds of women, and there are some pastors who do a fabulous job, fabulous job of supporting women. But there are some institutional things that happen in the church. In fact, a Barna Group survey showed that 57% of pastors and 64% of youth pastors struggle with exploitative material or have struggled with it. She could actually be talking to somebody who’s husband is also cheating and has the same problem her husband has, and not know it. And it becomes like clubbing baby seals. There are these women are so vulnerable. It just breaks my heart what happens. **Anne:** Church leadership further abuses them. **Laurie:** Yes. **Anne:** Yeah, it is painful and it’s wrong. **Laurie:** Yes. ## CULTURAL SHIFTS & SPEAKING UP IF MY HUSBAND IS CHEATING **Anne:** I’m so excited about the time we’re in right now, though, with the Harvey. Is it Weinstein? **Laurie:** Harvey Weinstein. **Anne:** I don’t know how to say it, but all these women who are being like, I can speak up. And women who are being taken seriously, and women who before people maybe said they were crazy. Now it’s coming out. No, all the things this “crazy” woman said were true. It’s an exciting time. And it’s exciting, because women are becoming healthier and talking about their husbands cheating. And that will enable and help the men to become healthier too. Because I envision a time where men are accountable for their behaviors. Where they are responsible and fantastic husbands and fathers. And that is what everyone wants. It’s not like we want like, the demise of the male. We just want, **Laurie:** We don’t want that. **Anne:** No, we want them to step up to the plate and become men. **Laurie:** And we want to be women. **Anne:** Yeah. **Laurie:** I love the idea of being loved. I love the idea of a close relationship with a strong man. That just makes me feel all kinds of feminine. When I’m with a man with good character, who knows how to treat me. Who I can sense is genuine. Now, genuine, not perfect, because if he’s trying to look like he’s perfect, there’s probably a problem. **Anne:** It’s like, oh, scary, scary, yeah. **Laurie:** So this is how we grow together. This is the beauty God wants for us. And you’re right. We are living in an exciting time, because the cover is being pulled off of this stuff. And more and more will come out. ## THE INTEGRITY QUESTION: MY HUSBAND IS CHEATING? **Laurie:** I believe this is the time where God will pull the cover back and give us opportunities to become who he truly created us to be, which is loving beings. I mean, that is what the whole purpose of being here is. It’s about loving one another. You know, those who love live in God. That’s one of the teachings of scripture. And if we’re not loving each other, we’re not even experiencing God in any real way. **Anne:** And if we don’t have integrity, we’re not experiencing God in any real way either. The true, like living our truth, living in the truth, right? **Laurie:** Absolutely, you bring up such a fabulous point, because I’ve been going to many church conferences. And I’m listening to pastors say that the way we deal with this issue is that we just draw closer to Jesus. We substitute the pleasure of pornography for the pleasure of being with Jesus. I want to say, okay, hello, hello. We’re talking about the way. We’re talking about the truth, we’re talking about the life. First of all, drawing closer to the Lord is about actually living in truth, as you just so brilliantly said, Anne. It’s about living in what is true. It’s about, as we know, and rely on the love God has for us, and know that we live in love. Then we’re made complete so that we can love others. That it’s about one another, about being close to others. That’s how we truly express our spirituality. And Jesus even said that. He said, when you feed the hungry or the thirsty or clothe the naked, you’re doing that as if you were doing it to me. ## WHEN YOUR HUSBAND IS CHEATING **Laurie:** This thing about a relationship with God, that is some kind of, I want this to come out right. I’m just starting to see this in a bigger way. It’s almost like they’re teaching to replace the fantasy of exploitative material with the fantasy of an imaginary relationship that happens in your mind. Instead of how we treat each other, how we see God all around us right here, right now, and rejoice in that. Love one another and respect one another. You can’t have this respect if your husband is cheating. Instead of checking out where I’m having a magical relationship in my head, with someone as a substitute for actually having a real relationship with a real human being. And I hope that doesn’t come across as heretical, but I think it’s key because we’re still teaching men to dissociate. **Anne:** Yeah. This also has so much to do with [if you should stay married after infidelity. ](https://www.btr.org/should-you-stay-married-after-infidelity/ "if you should stay married after infidelity. ") **Laurie:** To dissociate, because it all happens in their mind, instead of this place of vulnerability where we’re naked before each other, loving each other, and feeling what it is to be truly loved. ## WHAT TO DO IF YOUR HUSBAND IS CHEATING **Anne:** That’s awesome. You’re very emphatic. **Laurie:** I am, I feel it so strongly, because I’m sitting here pounding. **Anne:** I love it. **Laurie:** It’s about learning how to be in a real intimate relationship, without cheating. That’s where the wholeness is. **Anne:** Well, if you just respected him more, if you just loved him more, and if you just did more laundry, right? **Laurie:** Oh, I had more sex. Don’t forget that part. **Anne:** Yeah, oh, that. There’s a leader in our church that said, I’m gonna hammer this, but he said true religion undefiled before God is helping the poor, the widows, and the orphans. ## CALL FOR A THEOLOGY OF TRAUMA WHEN YOUR HUSBAND IS CHEATING **Anne:** And these men, through their actions, which are ungodlike, create widows and orphans. They are leaving their wives, or their wives have to say, you can’t be around us anymore because you’re so unhealthy, and cheating and [infidelity are abuse.](https://www.btr.org/is-infidelity-abuse/ "infidelity are abuse.") The opposite would be taking care of a woman, so she does not become an affair widow. Making sure you are a good husband and father, so that you do not leave your children fatherless. And it is based on action, not your ideal version of what you are like, based on all the scriptures you can quote. Or all the prayers that you can say in church to make you look beautiful. It’s actually what your real relationship is with your wife and with your children. **Laurie:** Yes. **Anne:** Women who are truly loved and cherished love and cherish their husbands. This is why women search for [Christian help for infidelity. ](https://www.btr.org/christian-help-for-infidelity/ "Christian help for infidelity. ") **Laurie:** Yes, they do. **Anne:** They love and cherish their husbands, even when their husbands abuse them. **Laurie:** Yes, they do. **Anne:** They just want their family to work, you know. **Laurie:** In fairness, some women are real horror shows. So, I mean, it’s not all in the men. It’s about this whole thing of, you’re right, faith without works is dead. We can talk a good talk, but how do we walk the walk? The church needs a theology of trauma. That understands that the pursuit of justice is a godly pursuit. And one that allows us to reestablish trust where it’s been broken. Because a theology of trauma understands that there’s a difference between forgiveness and restoration. And between grace and calling a thing a thing, so that grace can much more abound. ## CHURCH’S ROLE WHEN YOUR HUSBAND IS CHEATING **Laurie:** Now it says in Isaiah 117, To learn to do right, to seek justice, to defend the oppressed, to take up the cause of the fatherless, and plead the case of the widow. And Anne, you’re so right. We are affair widows. The church is called to be salt and light in matters of justice. And if the church would just do this, if they would just stand for living in truth and support what is true. Then I truly believe we could restore families, because there would be a path forward. **Anne:** Yeah, there is no path forward without accountability. **Laurie:** No. **Anne:** None, no one believes us, when we say I feel like my husband is cheating. Well, I appreciate you coming on today. Thank you so much for being here, Laurie. **Laurie:** Oh, thank you, Anne. It’s been a real pleasure to talk with you. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast **Tags:** gaslighting --- ### [Is My Husband Hiding Money? - Victoria's Story](https://www.btr.org/is-my-husband-hiding-money/) **Published:** September 30, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Are you're wondering, "Is my husband hiding money?" Here's how one woman found out. **Content:** Are you asking yourself, “Is my husband hiding money?” If you suspect he might be keeping secrets, including financial ones, it’s important to recognize the signs. From sneaky spending habits to secret accounts, there are common tactics some use to hide things from their partners. [This quiz will help you uncover if he’s lying](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/) in general, giving you the insight you need to determine whether money is part of the equation. ## HERE’S WHAT TO DO IF YOU WONDER, IS MY HUSBAND HIDING MONEY? ### 1. RECOGNIZE THE SIGNS OF FINANCIAL DECEPTION Is your husband secretive about finances? Does he avoid discussing expenses or where he is? Is it hard for you to get clear answers about what he is doing? Do you notice unusual transactions or missing funds? Financial dishonesty in marriage is a form of domestic abuse, because the intent is to control information and steal a wife’s power and agency. His actions could even be fraudulent, posing harm to others and implicating you. ### 2. DO YOUR HOMEWORK & KEEP GOOD RECORDS If you suspect your husband is hiding money or lying to you about finances or anything else, keep a journal of your suspicions and conversations. When it comes to finances, it’s important to carefully examine bank statements, credit card bills, and other financial documents in order to identify any inconsistencies. Comparing your husband’s behavior and your accounts can help you understand what’s really going on. ### 3. DON’T TALK TO YOUR HUSBAND ABOUT YOUR SUSPICIONS UNTIL… If you believe your husband is hiding money from you or someone else, it’s crucial not to discuss it. After all, if he is dishonest, he’s already aware of his actions, and raising the issue could backfire. It may alert him to your concerns and lead to more calculated attempts to deceive you and others. Proceed carefully to protect yourself. To see what’s going on without talking to him, enroll in [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). The Living Free Workshop will give you thought, communication, and boundary strategies to determine what’s going on. Without putting yourself at risk for his continued lies and manipulation. ### 4. IS MY HUSBAND HIDING MONEY? UNDERSTAND THAT LYING ABOUT MONEY IS A FORM OF CONTROL It’s important to recognize that hiding money or lying about finances isn’t just about secrecy; rather, it’s about control. In fact, financial abuse is a serious form of domestic abuse, as it limits your independence and freedom. If your husband uses finances to manipulate or control you, know that you’re not at fault, and there are resources available to help you. We have daily, online Group Sessions where women can talk about their suspicions and learn what to do to protect themselves. [Check out the Group Session schedule. We’d love to see you in a session TODAY](https://www.btr.org/group/). ## TRANSCRIPT: IS MY HUSBAND HIDING MONEY? **Anne:** I have Victoria Ellen on today’s episode. A Hulu show called *Scam Goddess* highlighted her story in season one, episode six. The Royal Racket. Although Victoria looks like a successful career woman, she led a difficult life. Behind the scenes, she spent more than a decade relentlessly pursuing justice for her children in a battle that led to the Ohio Supreme Court and beyond. Her husband lied about everything, including hiding money and committing fraud. She started as a divorced single mother struggling to get by after escaping an abusive man. She and her children spent years in therapy to overcome the trauma they endured. After traveling that bumpy road, Victoria became an award winning business woman, a happily married wife and a proud mother to two thriving college students. She’s here to share some of her story. Welcome, Victoria. **Victoria Ellen:** Thank you, Anne. Thank you so much for having me. **Anne:** So you wrote your experience in your book, *[Painting in the Rain, A True Story of Trickery and Triumph](https://amzn.to/3KvMF2A "Painting in the Rain, A True Story of Trickery and Triumph")*. How courageous of you to put your story to paper. In fact, you have a Hulu episode about your story, *Scam Goddess*, season one, episode six. The Royal Racket is the episode name. Can you talk about why you wanted to share your story? **Victoria Ellen:** Yes, you know, I just wanted to help other people. I had struggled for years, felt alone. And I really didn’t know which way to turn. I hoped that if I shared my memoir, perhaps I could help others struggling through their journey to freedom. ## MEETING HER EX-HUSBAND **Victoria Ellen:** When I first met my ex-husband, I was very young. I was 19 years old, very impressionable and he was 20. So we were just young and in love. He was Mr. Charisma, liked by everyone, fun, outgoing and seemed to have the world by the tail. Both of us participated in church. My world was school, church and family all growing up. It didn’t change once I met him, and I would say now looking back, he had cult like behavior. He started his own cult after I divorced him, but you know, early on everything was happy go lucky. Really, he just swept me off my feet with the love bombing. And how wonderful he would treat me. And how God told him I would be his wife. **Anne:** When did you start to notice[ if something felt off?](https://www.btr.org/feel-off-meaning/ " if something felt off?") And how did you define it at the time, not knowing what you were dealing with? Did you wonder,” is my husband hiding money along with other things?” **Victoria Ellen:** Actually my mother started seeing some red flags. She was very concerned for me. I didn’t see any of the [signs husband is controlling](/signs-husband-is-controlling/). The controlling behavior started early on, lots of secrets. But I had never been in a serious relationship like this. And so, I wasn’t thinking, Oh my, these are big red flags. I was just thinking like, oh, this is new. And there was a lot of emotion tied around it. Because I’m white, I’m a Caucasian woman. And he is an African American man. I was raised in a rural area in Ohio in the 90s. And even then, you didn’t see a lot of biracial interracial dating. So, many people had opinions about that. ## RED FLAGS & CONTROLLING BEHAVIOR ESCALATES **Victoria Ellen:** And I wasn’t sure if people were really genuinely concerned about me, if my red flags were valid, or if it was all rubbish. Because he was black, I was white, and the rest is left out there for people to make their own story about. But you know, I was completely under the spell. I drank the poison and in full blown deception land. Is my husband hiding money? yes, and other things. And didn’t listen to anyone, unfortunately. I ended up pregnant while we were dating, and I pulled away from him during my second trimester. Because the first trimester seemed like a whirlwind, and I really couldn’t think. I had everyone telling me what I should do with my life. I had no idea what I should do with my life. And so I tried to take a moment to step away and get clear. I started thinking like, this isn’t normal. This isn’t right. There are many things here that are concerning to me. But he started slowly working his way back. He sent gifts and cards, how much he wanted to see the ultrasounds, and check on the baby. It looked like oh, I just want to take care of you and the baby. And I don’t want you to worry about anything. I don’t want you to have to work or do anything outside the home. I just want you to stay with our child. And it all seemed, like, oh, this is the wholesome, American family dream. Like we’re going to get married, have a family, and live happily ever after. So, I let him back in, in the last trimester, and he quickly whisked me off to get married. ## IS MY HUSBAND HIDING MONEY? MARRIAGE & EXTREME CONTROL **Victoria Ellen:** Within days of being married, I realized I had made the wrong decision. He was extremely controlling. He controlled every area of my life. I was not allowed to speak on the phone with my family, without supervision from him. I wasn’t allowed to leave the home. My keys were often hidden. I couldn’t hop in the car and go somewhere. My circle was very small. He controlled every area of my life down to what I ate. Whether I could open the drapes on the windows and just let some sunshine in. Really disgusting, despicable behavior. My last ditch effort was to go to our pastor and ask her to meet with us, because I was planning on an escape. I just didn’t know how to do it and I thought maybe she could help us. We were in financial shambles, and the church helped us dig our way out. I still wasn’t thinking, “is my husband hiding money?” It was gone. They helped with a month or two of back rent, electricity and water, so we could have everything turned back on. However, he did not like the fact that I, you know, ousted him. **Anne:** Oh, I am so sorry. It’s so hard to go for help, and it makes things worse, you know? For instance, everyone will tell a victim that [intensive couple therapy](https://www.btr.org/intensive-couples-therapy-near-me/ "intensive couple therapy") will help, or clergy can help him see the light, so to speak. And even if he does change his behavior, she’ll later discover it was just more lies.[The Living Free workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) talks about what to do to get help. **Victoria Ellen:** Absolutely. **Anne:** And why it’s so important to follow those strategies to keep yourself safe. ## CHALLENGES WITH THE JUSTICE SYSTEM **Anne:** Did you discover any other abusive behavior? **Victoria Ellen:** Yeah. So exploitative content was definitely an issue in our marriage. He was a bodybuilder. And he ended up doing some air quotes, “modeling” with soft pornography. Of course, when I called him out on it, I was “crazy and insecure.” And with the abuse, of course, mental, emotional, and physical abuse, check all the boxes. Including, is my husband hiding money? As well, my son started displaying signs of sexual abuse as a 2-year-old, and I was pregnant with our second child. And I’m sad to say that the justice system needs huge, massive reform. I was involved in a custody battle initially for three and a half years. As a single mother, with those two children fighting relentlessly to protect them because they were being abused. And the judge was clearly swayed in his favor. She seemed to have a personal affection for him, which was odd in our case, and I was not able to get her moved off of it. He was gone for about 10 years after that initial 3. 5 years in litigation with the custody and the courts. When he came back, he wanted to reestablish parenting time. This started the next seven years of litigation. So we were involved in three different court cases. One, I represented myself as my own attorney in domestic relations court. A second case where my current husband had filed for adoption of the children. My husband won at the local level. My ex-husband appealed it. ## CUSTODY BATTLE & COURT STRUGGLES **Victoria Ellen:** It went to the 12th district court of appeals. My husband won the right to adopt again at the 12th district court of appeals. My ex-husband appealed it again. Now in the Supreme Court of Ohio, they take 7 percent of the cases, okay? So 93 percent of the time your case will not get taken. We thought those odds were pretty darn good. But my story is so crazy. They ended up taking the case and ended up ruling again in favor of my husband to adopt the children. They actually wrote new case law in the State of Ohio, specifically regarding this case. The third case we had was a two week federal trial. I worked with the Secret Service and U.S. District attorneys to bring justice to my ex-husband. So we had three court cases going for seven years. It was arduous, to say the least. I was sentenced to jail because my children refused to visit with their father, who was their abuser. I had children’s services investigations and police reports. Detectives investigated and interviewed the children, and we still could not get the justice system to do what was right. This sheds a little light on why I am so adamant about bringing light to what happens in the court system and why we need reform. I mean, 10 years in litigation, it took a toll on all of us. I think a lot of people operate out of fear. Because the courts tell them, you’re going to go to jail, and we’re going to take the kids away from you. So it does cause you to think you have to send your children to do these visits or else. ## THE NEED FOR JUSTICES TO BE EDUCATED **Victoria Ellen:** And I was at a point where my children’s well-being was paramount. I would be one of those people who left the country, shaved my head, took on a new alias and started a new life. Because I refused to send my children back into the lion’s den with their perpetrators. My son had six abuse perpetrators by the time he was six years old. **Anne:** Oh, I’m so sorry. **Victoria Ellen:** Once they articulated who their perpetrators were, they were old enough to tell investigators who it was and explain in detail what had been happening to them. The system is broken. I knew it was broken, and that’s why we were tied up for so long, because I refused to give up. My ex-husband relentlessly used the court system to drive me through the mud. Financially drain me, emotionally drain me to force me to sit in a courtroom and look at him when I didn’t want anything to do with him. It was sick. And we all know this now. I believe the court system needs to do something drastic. I don’t know what type of revolution we need. But these judges and magistrates need more education on narcissism, coercive control, manipulation and the effects of it. Not only on the ex, the person raising these children, but also on the children, they’re going to grow up someday. I hope they could be successful adults and contribute positively to society. But when they’re relentlessly dragged through the mud, year after year, it’s hard to raise healthy, happy adults. ## ABUSE BY THE JUSTICE SYSTEM **Anne:** Yeah that’s the thing about [divorcing a narcissist](https://www.btr.org/divorcing-a-narcissist/ "divorcing a narcissist") they then can like abuse by the justice system. They can use the justice system to abuse you. Because you shouldn’t even have to be there. You’re just trying to protect your kids. The fact that you’re dragged in and have to pay money to defend against nothing. Because you didn’t do anything is crazy. It’s so expensive and time consuming. Having been through it myself, it is maddening that the courts can upend people’s lives in this way. Just because someone is not in prison does not mean they’re an appropriate parent. **Victoria Ellen:** Correct, absolutely, it seems like nothing matters. It doesn’t matter if you abuse your child, if you don’t pay child support, if you’re mentally abusive, physically abusive, check all the boxes. It doesn’t matter. The magistrate said to me, even bad parents get to see their kids. I mean, what an indictment on the judicial system. **Anne:** Exactly, if it were a stranger, that stranger may be put in jail. But at the very least, no one would want that child to be in proximity to that stranger. At this point, did you also start questioning, “is my husband hiding money?” **Victoria Ellen:**My husband and I were just day and night doing recon online. Trying to find any lead that we could regarding the life of my ex husband and what he might be up to. I knew he had picked up three felonies for fraud in previous years. But we couldn’t find anything on him, not where he was working. He drove cars not registered to him. Now, I’m thinking, *is my husband hiding money?* Evidence showed he was. ## IS MY EX-HUSBAND HIDING SOMETHING? FINDING ALIASES & GATHERING EVIDENCE **Victoria Ellen:** He was driving luxurious cars, flashing a lot of expensive jewelry, things that would lead you to believe he was financially sound or successful in some people’s minds. So we just started trying to figure it out. We kept coming up empty. And one day I reached out to one of the victims in his first court case on fraud, where he has three felonies. And they told me that my ex husband used aliases. That he was not only a pastor now, but also posing as a prince of Ghana, Africa. **Anne:** Wow. **Victoria Ellen:** So I used all these aliases in Google. It was like a magic trick. His face started popping up everywhere. I started finding all these shell companies that he was operating. These businesses were under this magic key. And then I started gathering as much evidence as possible. Finally, I knocked on enough doors and went to enough people. I put together a file and filed a motion for a new child support order. Is my husband hiding money? I found that was true. I was the only person with financial access, because I had two children with him previously. So this was another way for us to keep pressure on him. We had been in litigation at this point, like 5, 6 years. With all this nonsense, we were running out of money. It was outrageous. So I’d been in court long enough that I could fumble my way through hold my own. My husband convinced me to be my own attorney. And so I went to court and had an exhibit book. I worked through that exhibit book for an hour and 40 minutes. I had my ex-husband on cross examination. ## IS MY HUSBAND HIDING MONEY? COURTROOM STRATEGIES **Victoria Ellen:** If you know anything about someone with narcissistic personality disorder, they love to talk about themselves. So I have a huge exhibit book full of pictures and documents of my ex-husband. He just kept flipping through it and was so excited to talk about all this and go through the exhibit books. He truly believed this plan and strategy he’d hatched, that this life he lived for seven years, was foolproof. Like, “nobody’s going to catch me.” I’m above the law. I’ll never be held accountable for anything. Everybody believes I’m a prince, prophet, pastor, and CEO, COO. This thing is like Fort Knox, it’s locked up tight. Like no one can catch me. And that conceited, arrogant attitude of I’m above everyone, and everything, is the thing that actually helped us win that case. Because he thought he couldn’t be exposed. And he was exposing himself for an hour and 40 minutes. Is my husband hiding money? He was. I literally had documentation of these businesses that he started in Ohio, and he signed them Prince Daryl Adepo. So he thought I’ll just use that. It says I’m a prince, a descendant of royalty in Africa. So I can just continue operating like this. But from the prior crime he had committed, he wasn’t even allowed to have a Series 6 or a Series 7, it’s a license. Financial advisors and investment brokers, would have those types of licensures, and he was posing as an investment broker. You can’t even get that if you are a convicted felon. I mean, he’s a pastor of a church now, which is just laughable. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## HE’S INDICTED ON FEDERAL CHARGES **Victoria Ellen:** He claims to be a prophet, and he claims he’s the CEO and COO. And he’s a prince. So he’s got all this going on, and people are giving him money. So he’s getting the money from the church. And then he’s getting the money from the people that think that they’re investing in his gold mine in Africa that doesn’t even exist. They’re giving him their 401k. They’re selling their house or they’re taking out equity lines of credit against their house to give him money. Because he’s promising a 30 percent return. That’s where the Ponzi scheme comes in. He’s got all this money, and that’s where all the flashy cars, the Rolexes, the diamond rings, and all the things come from. It’s like, oh, you’re stealing, you’re a thief and an imposter. That makes sense. Okay, now I get it, you didn’t earn any of this. So I ordered the transcripts, and I took the file I had been working on for five years, and I hand delivered them to the feds. And, they indicted him nine months later on 16 federal charges. Fraud, conspiracy, mail fraud, wire fraud, everything to do with fraud you could possibly imagine. Is my husband hiding money? Yes, and other lies. So it was our mission to expose him. He’s not safe. The lifestyle he lived was absurd. And the fact that he even pretended he wanted time with these children was laughable, honestly, Because he didn’t want anything to do with the children. He wanted to get to me. The children would be there for visits, and he wouldn’t spend time with them. Because they wouldn’t leave with him. ## THE TRIAL **Victoria Ellen:** Any other father with children sitting in front of them for a visit would sit at the table and have a conversation with their children. He did not do that. If the children were going to get in the car and leave with him, he didn’t want anything to do with them. He would say, “I’ll see your mom in court.” So it’s like, this doesn’t have anything to do about reestablishing a relationship with your children. It has to do with control and manipulation. **Anne:** Wow, that’s amazing that you got that evidence on, your husband, who was hiding money and a lot more and turned it into the feds. **Victoria Ellen:** So this is incredible. We were in a trial for two weeks, which is unheard of, because generally defendants know they are caught. They know they don’t have a case, and it’s pretty much closed book. It’s like you’re guilty, plead guilty, and here’s your sentence, you’re done. So the fact that this case even went to a trial is unheard of. This was on the tail end of COVID. There were 17 victims and witnesses through those two weeks. The jury found him guilty of 10 of the 16 charges. The U.S. district attorneys dropped three charges. So he was guilty of 10 charges. And I was able to speak at the sentencing hearing. The U.S. district attorneys asked me if I would be willing to say something, and there was also another victim that spoke that day. After that, the judge said he was considering an upward departure, and the rules are a little different in the federal court system. So there are specific time frames assigned to certain crimes. ## IS MY EX-HUSBAND HIDING MONEY? SENTENCING **Victoria Ellen:** So, if you commit fraud, you’re supposed to get X amount of time. If you have priors, there’s this formula they use. Basically to generate how long they think you should go to prison. Well, the U.S. district attorneys were requesting 10 to 14 years for the crimes committed. Of course, the defendant’s attorney claimed he shouldn’t get any time. Because how could he pay back all his victims, these hundreds of thousands, millions of dollars. Is my husband hiding money? Yes, lots of it. **Anne:** Oh, if he was in jail. How could he defraud other people to pay for the other people he defrauded? **Victoria Ellen:** Yeah, exactly. He stole $250, 000 from one man during the first case. And he never paid him back, and he continued to steal from people. And never did a day in jail for that either. So you know, this isn’t going to happen. So the judge says, I’m looking at an upward departure. Which means that the defendant should get 10 to 14 years. I’m considering going above that, because the crimes are so heinous and he is so despicable. You should have seen the secret service and federal marshals that lined up in the gallery that day to watch the circus take place. Him on the stand doubling down the fact that he was a prince, that he had a gold mine in Africa. And he really was going to pay back all his friends. They’re not victims, they’re his friends. It was wild. The judge literally threw the book at him and sentenced him to 20 years in federal prison. **Anne:** Wow, oh, I bet you felt so relieved. **Victoria Ellen:** It was surreal, I couldn’t believe it. ## DIFFERENCES BETWEEN COURT SYSTEMS **Victoria Ellen:** For the 20 years we had fought him, he got 20 years in federal prison. And I just felt like it was a year for every year that we had been to hell and back with him. And exposed him, is my husband hiding money? Definitely. **Anne:** Yeah, can you talk about the difference in your experience with the criminal court and the civil court? Women can get protective orders. Sometimes it’s difficult to get a protective order, but it’s not as hard, I would say, to get a protective order as it is to protect your children from the abuser. Police sometimes follow up on protective order violations or fraud, but in the civil court with custody. There is nothing, it feels like, that anybody can do to protect children from abuse. So, can you talk about the difference between those two types of courts? **Victoria Ellen:** Domestic relations court fails miserably when it comes to protecting children. And they continued to fail us year after year until my children were emancipated. They never did come through, ever. Not one time. For either child. It’s just very sad. I haven’t been involved with criminal courts at a local level. I’ve only been involved with the feds. They were serious about the law, and they weren’t listening to the lies, and were very black and white. And domestic relations courts are trying to take into account all these factors. And I would just encourage anybody in the court system to document everything. I didn’t have phone conversations with him. Everything was via text message because text messages are admissible for court evidence. So are emails, and also recordings or videos. ## IS HE HIDING MONEY? FIGHTING FOR THE TRUTH TO BE TOLD **Victoria Ellen:** If you can document these things, people will start reading between the lines and see that this person isn’t who they are portraying themselves to be. Because they are creating their own reality. They’re just telling the story. I mean, my ex-husband literally created this life that was not real, did not exist, and doubled down on it. And all the lies. Is my husband hiding money? Yes. And now he’s spending 20 years in federal prison. Because he tried to convince everybody that the lie was the truth. Unfortunately, everybody doesn’t have the same opportunity that I had at the federal level. **Anne:** They’re just dealing with local courts, and it can be a daunting task to continuously go to court over and over again and not have your voice heard. Yeah, it’s very discouraging. Also, I talk to many victims who’ve documented everything. They have proof, and that hasn’t swayed the courts either. I had 40 pages of documentation, and it didn’t do anything. So strategy is so important, especially if you’re wondering “is my husband hiding money?” That’s why I put the strategies in [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. Again, you can get more information by clicking this link.](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) It will teach you how to do it step by step, so that you have the documentation, but also how to use it strategically. For example, I learned in my case that those 40 pages, the guardian ad litem actually used it as proof that I tried to hurt my ex. Because what other loving co-parent would document 40 pages of child abuse against their co-parent? **Victoria-Ellen:** Oh my oh, that’s what I’m talking about. It’s maddening, it’s maddening. It’s enough to send you over the edge. I’m not kidding, it’s crazy. ## ADVOCATING FOR JUSTICE REFORM TOGETHER **Anne:** I’ve had a lot of times, like yelling and screaming in my own house by myself, not in court, jumping up and down. So, how can this be happening? None of this is even makes sense in any way shape or form. And it’s so frustrating. Your story can help bring this to light. All women listening to this podcast are interested in reforms in the justice system to ensure that we can protect children from abuse. I’m so glad you’re safe now. You are a warrior. You’re amazing. **Victoria Ellen:** Thank you, thank you. Well, it takes one to know one, and you know, we just have to bind together. We can’t stand by and watch evil prevail. **Anne:** That’s what it is, like legit evil. They know what they’re doing and doing it on purpose. In fact, they know they’re hurting people and don’t care. **Victoria Ellen:** They don’t care, no. Well, when you lack empathy and compassion, what else is there? Just to wreck people’s lives? What you’re doing is making a huge difference, Anne. I appreciate you standing in the gap and helping educate others. Because I didn’t have anything like this when I left 25 years ago. Thank you for fighting the good fight. **Anne:** Thank you so much for sharing your story. **Victoria Ellen:** Thank you so much for having me. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [What Is Covert Emotional Abuse? How to See the Signs](https://www.btr.org/covert-emotional-abuse/) **Published:** October 7, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** He may not hit, yell, or seem like a mean, angry bully - but covert emotional abuse leaves invisible scars. **Content:** Covert emotional abuse is difficult to identify. If you’re wondering if you’re husband is using covert emotional abuse, here’s what you need to know. To discover if your husband is emotionally abusive, take this [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). Anne Blythe, M.Ed. Host of The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, talks to Nadira, a member of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery community about her husband’s covert emotional abuse. ## 6 EXAMPLES OF COVERT EMOTIONAL ABUSE 1. Covert Emotional Abuse Is A Lack Of Consideration 2. Neglect Is Covert Emotional Abuse 3. Secret Pornography Use Is Covert Emotional Abuse 4. Lying Is Covert Emotional Abuse 5. Covert Emotional Abuse Looks Nice and Kind 6. If It’s Covert Emotional Abuse, There Will Be No Resolution ## COVERT EMOTIONAL ABUSE IS DANGEROUS BECAUSE IT’S INVISIBLE Covert abusers are often charming, confident, and seem to speak and act in a gentle and polite manner. It can be terrifying for victims to suddenly realize that the inconsistent cruelty and confusion they experience is abuse. Men who covertly abuse women don’t always hit, yell, break things, or lash out. Instead, the abuse is more subtle and hard to pin down. This makes covert abusers appear “normal” and makes victims feel crazy, overly-sensitive, and nit-picky. The reality, of course, is that victims are often *under reacting* to the gaslighting, manipulation, and crazy-making they are experiencing. ## COVERT ABUSERS LIE – AND PUT VICTIMS IN SERIOUS DANGER Because abusive men usually lie about their sexual behaviors, including exploitative materials use and affairs. Women are in serious danger of STD infection. When men lie about their behavior, or withhold information, they commit coercion. Coercion is an umbrella term for partner rape and sexual abuse. **Women are victims of coercion if they don’t have the information they need to give informed consent before contact.** When women have contact without knowing the truth about their partner’s use, past and/or current partner(s), STDs, compulsive masturbation, or other behaviors, they become at-risk for STDs and STIs, exploitation, and the intense trauma that accompanies betrayal. ## COVERT ABUSERS NORMALIZE ABUSE BY HARMING VICTIMS QUIETLY One of the most dangerous aspects of covert abuse is the way it is gradually intensified and normalized by abusers. Covert abusers are master-manipulators and often have more self-control than physical batterers. Because of this, they can slowly groom victims into accepting abuse as normal – and even feel grateful during the brief periods when their partner is not inflicting psychological damage. ## COVERT ABUSERS HIDE BEHIND THE “SEX ADDICT” LABEL Because covert abusers are often exploitative materials users. Men will hide behind the label of “sex addict”, reaping the privileges of being an “addict” while continuing to harm and cast blame on partners. While some individuals may truly suffer from addiction to sex and pornography (yes, it is addictive), *all* men who use pornography are abusers. When therapists, 12-step groups, clergy, and others encourage families to view the abusive man as addicted, they minimize the danger of the abuse and enable the abuser. Abusers *can* change, but it’s probably not through [CSAT therapists](https://www.btr.org/csat-therapist-near-me/ "CSAT therapists"). At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we know how maddening, terrifying, and heartbreaking it can be to suffer at the hands of a covert abuser. The confusion and distortion of reality is enough to drain energy, hope, and joy from anyone’s life. But healing is possible: with self-care, safety, and support. The [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group](https://www.btr.org/group/ "Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group") meets daily in multiple time zones to offer victims a safe place to process trauma, share their stories, ask questions, and connect with other victims who get it. Join today and begin your journey to healing. ## TRANSCRIPT: WHAT IS COVERT EMOTIONAL ABUSE? **Anne:** Before we get to this week’s guest. We have a lot of women who listen to the podcast, who are not of any faith or aren’t Christians. I want to welcome everyone and thank everyone for listening. When women share on the podcast, I always want them to share from their own personal faith or paradigm. That means I frequently share from my own, and this podcast is not just for members of my church, but for everybody. We have a member of our community on today’s episode, who comes from a Muslim background, although she converted to Christianity. We’re going to call her Nadira. Nadira and I will be talking about covert emotional abuse. And as she shares her story, I’m going to stop and point out six examples of covert emotional abuse. Welcome Nadira. **Nadira:** Hi Anne. I have to say that’s something I appreciate about your podcast, because I know you’re a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And so when I first started listening, I thought maybe it was just for people that belong to that faith. But as I listened to the podcast, I was encouraged that this is for all women from all types of faith backgrounds. But the truth is, we share this thing in common, in that we’ve all been abused. It’s been comforting for me to hear from all types of women with all types of beliefs. ## NADIRA’S EARLY RELATIONSHIP & RED FLAGS **Anne:** Oh, thank you so much for saying that. Yeah, that’s important to me that everyone feels welcome here. Everyone has different epiphanies based on their experience. I want women to share those. So the other women can hear them and realize they’re not alone. And that we’re all so similar. Thanks for saying that. I appreciate it. Let’s talk about your story. Did you recognize abusive behaviors in the beginning? **Nadira:** What I will say is yes and no. No, I didn’t have a category or the right verbiage for it. But what I knew was something was terribly wrong from the beginning. I’m Middle Eastern. My dad is from the Middle East, and I was raised Muslim, but came to faith as a Christian when I was 16. I took that decision seriously and devoted my life to my faith. It was life changing for me. And when I met my ex-husband, he was on full time staff with a Christian organization. He was basically a missionary. We actually took Bible classes together when I met him. He checked all the boxes. He is a master manipulator, like men I’ve heard about on this podcast. And so sadly, I kept thinking, well if I would change, or maybe I’m being ridiculous. I kept questioning myself, but innately, I knew something was terribly wrong. ## HONEYMOON INCIDENT: FIRST EXAMPLE OF ABUSE **Nadira:** On our honeymoon, my ex-husband actually decided to play volleyball in a two on two tournament for two days in a row with a totally hot woman in her bikini and flirt with her the whole time. Now, I asked him about it. I’m a person who’s forthright in what I feel, and I told him I felt hurt. I said I didn’t want him to do it, and the next day he did it again. **Anne:** Oh wow, wow, on your honeymoon. I’m so sorry. So that’s our first example of covert emotional abuse. It was his absolute lack of consideration for you on your honeymoon. Like he was more into this other person than his own wife on her honeymoon. I am so sorry. I mean, how did the rest of the honeymoon go? **Nadira:** I always felt like I was overly jealous in the conversations with him. I was insane. And so right from the get go, there was a precedent set that he could do whatever he wanted and flip it all around. And I would feel like what is wrong with me? That continued, and so in my gut, I always knew there was something terribly wrong. But my ex-husband, like so many people I’ve heard about on this podcast, which really helped me not feel alone. He’s well liked, by the way. And he’s always been the pastor’s best friend. He’s a successful businessman. He was actually a star athlete. ## EMOTIONAL NEGLECT: SECOND EXAMPLE OF COVERT EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Nadira:** He had this Opie Taylor image, that he was just this aw shucks, unassuming guy, and everyone loved and trusted him. And so I always felt like, what’s wrong with me? And he would say that to me, like, what’s wrong with you? Everybody else loves me. But I was extremely neglected in our home. I was a newlywed, I just moved across the country. And I felt very alone. We lived in a house built in 1948, so it was very small. He would disappear into the office for hours, and he would work long hours outside the home. And in his free time, he was either in the office. Or he watched TV and I was so lonely. I was seven months pregnant. And I thought I’m going to leave and see if he even notices. So, I left the house, seven months pregnant, in an unsafe area, by the way. And two and a half hours later, he calls me and says, What are you doing? Where are you at? It took two and a half hours for him to even notice that I had left our little 1, 200 square foot house. So, the neglect was extreme. **Anne:** That’s our second example of covert emotional abuse, emotional neglect. Like he didn’t even notice that you were missing. I can imagine in that situation you would feel so alone. I went through that too. Because right after I married, I moved to be with my ex, and I felt so alone too. And he would just take off and not tell me where he was going. What else did you notice early on? Other than the emotional neglect? ## DISCOVERING EXPLOITATIVE MATERIAL: THIRD EXAMPLE OF ABUSE **Nadira:** Pretty early on, one week before our oldest child’s birth. I had gone downstairs earlier than normal and caught my ex-husband looking at it. **Anne:** And there is example number three. So the third example of covert emotional abuse is secretly using. It’s covert because you can’t see it because he’s hiding it from you. **Nadira:** Prior to marriage, I had actually asked him, which is abnormal at the time. But I had asked him about it, because I heard of a story where pornography had invaded a marriage. And so I asked him about his experience with it. And of course, he lied to me and said he didn’t have a problem or any issues with it. I went through all the normal feelings of what’s wrong with me. Why am I not enough? Does he love me? All those questions that are normal. So when I caught him one week before the birth of our first child. At that point, I knew, okay, there is something much deeper going on here. That’s not about me. ## LYING & DECEPTION: FOURTH EXAMPLE OF ABUSE **Anne:** Lying is example number four. Lying is covert emotional abuse. You’re resisting the entire time. Knowing that something was wrong, and in your efforts to resist, where else did you turn for help? **Nadira:** Yeah, I tried a lot of things. I’m just a proactive person, especially in relationships. From the beginning, I was reaching out for marriage counseling, pastoral counseling, to do marriage workshops. He worked for a well known Christian organization, and they had resources for us. So we were utilizing all those resources. In all that, he could answer and look like a shining great guy. But no one was in our home to see the neglect. For other listeners who can relate to this, I wanted to share this. So, my ex-husband was not a screamer or yeller. He did push me once or twice, which is abuse. That was in a really extreme moment, and it was not the norm. He did everything with a smile on his face. So he was always cool, calm, collected, and always smiling. So all the neglect, all the flirting with other women in front of me. And the inappropriate stuff he’s done with our children has all been done with a smile on his face. It was not this ogre like persona. ## THE SMILING ABUSER: FIFTH EXAMPLE OF COVERT EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Anne:** Let’s pause here for just a second to point out the fifth example of covert emotional abuse, even something like [what is featurism](/what-is-featurism/). It doesn’t look bad, it looks nice and kind, he looks like a responsible, upstanding person. And that’s why it’s covert, because you cannot see it. Before we get to the inappropriate things he did with your kids. Can we return to marriage counseling? When you did pastoral counseling, did anyone identify the abuse or him as an abuser? **Nadira:** Never, not one time. So to give you a little history, I caught him. Well, then I caught him again. And then he seemed to do well for years. And then the last time I caught him, it had escalated for years. There was a lot I didn’t know, he had been having affairs. He had engaged with prostitutes. Also, he had brought prostitutes into our home on several occasions. He had done all these horrific things to our family. And at that point even, I was told it was addiction. So then we went the addiction route for years. Even when he went to treatment, which he did for addiction. Which I think was a huge waste of $50,000, because it upped his pathology and made him more dangerous. And then I knew he was going back to “addiction,” even before he got caught again. But the truth was that I didn’t want to be in relationship with a manipulator, a liar, a cheater, a psychologically abusive person. ## ADDICTION THERAPY & ITS FAILURES: SIXTH EXAMPLE OF ABUSE **Nadira:** So I filed for divorce. **Anne:** Yeah, I hear that all the time. Time and time again, women tell me their story about [how to deal with their addict husband](https://www.btr.org/how-to-deal-with-an-addict-husband/ "how to deal with their addict husband") and he went to addiction therapy or abuse cessation therapy. It was not only a waste of time and money, but he actually got worse. So it was like paying $50,000 to make him worse. So that is the sixth example of covert emotional abuse, there’s no resolution. They give you the impression that they’re going to get help, But then they use that proximity to you and their promise to you that they’re going to change as a way to continue to exploit you. **Nadira:** It was traumatizing, because here I had all this hope for help. And it ended up being more dangerous for our family in the long run. And yet, I believe the people at treatment had good intentions. I think it may work for someone, I don’t know. But in our case, it really upped his pathology, and he’s that much more dangerous. **Anne:** For women wondering if their [husband is addicted to](https://www.btr.org/is-my-husband-addicted/ "husband is addicted to") this, when do you start to recognize it’s abuse? ## RECOGNIZING ABUSE THROUGH THE PODCAST **Nadira:** Well, I’ll be honest, Anne, it’s been listening to your podcast. My therapist recommended your podcast to me. I’ve only been listening to your podcast for six months. So it’s only been the last six months, and it’s been a complete paradigm shift for me. And it’s actually totally changed my life. This is why: when it was sex addiction, there is this idea that he’s a sick person and needs empathy. It’s just a sick person who has like cancer, for example. And so that’s how we treated it as a family. In the meantime, he’s still doing horrific things to the children. And so it was listening to every one of these podcasts. It really made my whole paradigm shift and go, you know what? It’s not addiction. It’s just an extremely abusive, I believe sociopath is what I believe he is. He lacks empathy, which allows him to do horrific things to his family and children. Like introduce his children to prostitutes with a smile on his face. On a regular basis, he would become aroused around the children when playing with them. And not when they physically touched each other. What I mean is, like, they weren’t body on body. He would just become aroused. And that was something I had addressed before he ever got caught in full blown addiction with prostitutes. I had been talking to our pastor, to our counselors, and everyone was like, that’s weird. But you know, they would just tell him, like, get away from the children. But that had been going on for years. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## COVERT EMOTIONAL ABUSE IMPACTS ON CHILDREN **Nadira:** Since our two oldest children are four years old and two years old, he would be aroused playing with the children. I never caught child abuse material, but I’d only caught him using exploitative material twice. And they were like four years apart. We had covenant eyes and all that, but he is a master manipulator. He lived a whole double life. I will tell you, everyone who found out our story in our friend group was like, he’s the last person I ever expected. He was always the pastor’s best friend. **Anne:** That’s why they’re so dangerous. When I talk to people about how use is abusive. If you catch them, you don’t know what else is going on. They’re not going to tell you. **Nadira:** They only admit what they get caught with. Even if it’s “just pornography,” unless you’ve agreed on that in your relationship. That is abuse. That’s lying and coercion. That’s manipulating. I want to read you this quick, from the Domestic Violence Victims Handbook. I picked it up at Children’s Services. So it describes abuse, right? And under the different headings, there’s like coercion, making the victim feel guilty, pushing the victim into decisions, sulking, manipulating children and other family members. Always insisting on being right, making impossible rules and punishing the victim for breaking them. Talks about emotional withdrawal, economic control. A lot of these behaviors described in this are exactly what I went through and what our children went through and still go through. And yet, he’s not a physically abusive person. He does it all with a smile. ## HE SPENT ALL OUR MONEY **Nadira:** I was told, and I know I’m not alone in this. That if I would be more loving and kinder, and there’s a passage in 1 Peter 3 that talks about submitting without a word, That he would be a more loving husband. The purpose of abuse is to silence your victim. It silenced me. I literally felt like I was dying inside, and he went off the rails. When he got caught, like really caught, we were broke because he had spent all our money on women. So me trying to do whatever it takes to save my marriage hurt me in the long run. Because literally at the end of the day, we were broke. He had destroyed everything. He had abused our children. If we’re friends and you come to me and say, I’m being abused. I want to help you get help and get to a safe place. But if you come to me and say, you know,there’s a whole different approach. And your safety is not the main concern, which is crazy to me. The main concern is him. Which is just enabling him to, like in our case, up his pathology and become more dangerous. So your podcast has made a huge difference to me. It’s changed everything, because instead of treating it like addiction and all the ways I was taught. Because I went to Al Anon for years and stuff like that. I am treating it like, no, we are victims, he’s an abuser, and we need to be safe. ## THE NEED FOR SAFETY & PROTECTION **Nadira:** And we are currently in court over custody issues. He’s lost complete custody of our oldest. We’re trying to free the younger children from the abuse. It’s a totally different perspective, because I don’t treat it like an addiction, and he just needs help. I actually don’t believe there’s help for him. I believe he’s a sociopath and that literally we just need to get safe to a safe place. **Anne:** Even if there was some kind of help for him. The point is still the same. If the person isn’t safe, it doesn’t matter if they can become safe or not. They’re not currently safe, period. We need to protect ourselves. With your ex, I tend to agree with you. He’s never going to change, but if he could, hypothetically, it would not matter. We still need to protect ourselves, because he’s not safe. That is the most fundamental thing that most people don’t understand. They think if somebody can become safe, we don’t need to protect ourselves. And instead, we need to be patient, kind, and loving. And I’m like, no, no, no, no. It doesn’t matter if they can change or not. That’s not the issue. The issue is I need to protect myself now because they’re not safe now, period. And that’s why I put together [Clarity After Betrayal workshop.](https://www.btr.org/clarity/ "after betrayal") **Anne:** In your case, you filed for divorce to protect yourself. And I’m so sorry it’s still a struggle to keep your children safe. That is such a common problem. ## FAITH & MISGUIDED COUNSEL FOR COVERT EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Anne:** After what you’ve been through. Knowing what you know now, what insights could you share with women in your same situation? **Nadira:** My faith had a lot to do, I believe, with a lot of the decisions I made. And God does not value marriage over my relationship with God. And that seems like a very obvious point. But I kept feeling like the counsel I received from pastors and lay people was that I needed to do whatever it takes, including extreme abuse, to stay married and keep a family together. And yet, my children endured more abuse because I was trying to please God in that way. And marriage in many ways in some churches or communities of faith is held above a woman and children’s safety, emotional and mental well-being. Because, you know, that kind of abuse long term, I got to really desperate places. I got to places where I didn’t want to live anymore. It took me to those places. I believe everything happens for a reason. But I can’t imagine what my life would have been like if I would have gotten out of that abuse a long time ago. The hard thing though is that Sodom and Gomorrah looked evil, and so did the Egyptians, right? But in our case, he looked, like literally, the best guy ever. ## THE BROADER IMPACT OF EXPLOITATIVE MATERIAL **Nadira:** The thing that’s discounted or not talked about a ton, and you do a good job of talking about it here. Is, yeah, okay, let’s say he is just looking at it behind your back, lying to you and coercing and manipulating you. Well, what are the effects of that on the family? It doesn’t happen in a black hole by itself. It’s not an isolated event. It affects how he treats you and the children. It affects how he sees you and the children. And It affects so many areas of your life, your time, your money, it’s not an isolated thing. It affects everyone. My ex-husband getting aroused around our children. And he would grab our boy’s testicles. I told counselors, and guess what? There’s not been one report about it. No one’s done anything about it. He’s told them because when he “was in recovery,” all that was out in the open. I mean, we probably told ten therapists. I don’t know if you’ve heard of the Milton Magnus model. We did that too. **Anne:** Oh, I’m so sorry. We’ve heard horror stories here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery from women talking about addiction therapists. But we’ve also heard horror stories from abuse recovery therapists as well. **Nadira:** Well, one of the reasons you need to get safe right now, I’ve learned from you, is that when he is abusive, there’s so much that you don’t even realize is covert emotional abuse. Because it’s all foggy. In my opinion, you need separation so you can begin to see more clearly. ## ADDICTION TREATMENT PROMISES & HOPES **Nadira:** Like with children who have been abused, let’s say it is a father, uncle or grandfather, like a relative. That maybe the family wants them to see eventually again. They’ll advise the parents, like, that the child needs to not be in a relationship with that person for at least a year. They need to literally get physically away from the abuser. So they can get clear on what happened. I still can’t see clearly what’s going on. I mean, believe it or not, in the horrors of our story, I still wanted the marriage and a family. Because there are pieces that I love. After all, I married him, right? **Anne:** Me too. No woman wants a divorce. **Nadira:** But then addiction treatment made all these promises and hopes. And then my ex-husband was like a star treatment performer, so I had all this hope too. I’m well versed in addiction, because we’ve had so many experts that did so many models. And we’ve used polygraphs. We went to a really reputable treatment center, et cetera, et cetera. And you know, the whole thing about addiction is that he’s sort of a victim himself of his compulsive behavior and can’t stop. We don’t ever put that same label on a domestic violence person. In other words, we don’t say to someone who physically abuses their family members, oh, well, you can’t stop and it’s compulsive. You don’t have the power to stop that. We expect them to stop that behavior. Or they will go to jail. ## COVERT EMOTIONAL ABUSE: EMPATHY FOR ADDICTION **Nadira:** With addiction, we don’t expect them to necessarily stop. There’s a lot of empathy and a lot of just like, well, do your best and you know, keep coming back. But we don’t put that same kind of pressure on addiction. We treat it as a addiction, that it’s a problem that they’re powerless over. However, if it’s domestic abuse, it’s completely different. I think there’s a huge disconnect. **Anne:** Yeah, at the beginning, you read a brochure from a domestic violence shelter outlining these behaviors. So there’s a huge disconnect between the addiction industrial complex and abuse experts, because the addiction industrial complex does not recognize it as abuse. And then one of the reasons for that disconnect, apart from the fact that they know squat about abuse, is that abusers are manipulative. And when they get caught. They have a “reason” for why they did it. They say things like I’m so broken, or I was abused as a kid. We all know someone who was abused as a kid, and they’re not an abuser. It is a lie that it caused him to be abusive. He chose to be abusive. And the addiction industry has decided to take these lies at face value. And they’ve made an entire industry around it. I mean, you and I felt shame. We felt a ton of shame. But we didn’t abuse our own children. There are no excuses for this. They are too unsafe for their wife and children, the end. Like it does not have to be this complicated. It is just abuse. And he hides it because it’s covert emotional abuse. ## THE ADDICTION MODEL DOESN’T PROTECT VICTIMS **Nadira:** It doesn’t have to be so complicated. He lied to me. He manipulated, and it affected our whole lives. I mean, it’s totally affected our socioeconomic status. Everything’s changed in our life, and our children have been abused. And yet, he’s considered a addict, not an abuser. **Anne:** And that’s wrong. That’s why I started podcasting. And that’s why I’m on this mission. I want to educate women about abuse. If you’re in a relationship with an active user, he is abusive. And you are a victim of his abuse. I’ve interviewed so many women, and they tell me over and over again, the behaviors they are experiencing. They’re all things that are easily identifiable as abuse by abuse experts. And after interviewing all these women over the years, I know personally that the addiction model is not protecting victims of abuse. It is not. **Nadira:** Well, if I had your podcast 10 years ago, I would have had tools to say, no, this is not about he said, she said. Or how do we love each other better? Or the five love languages or any of that. I married an abuser. I don’t know about you, but I grew up thinking, if you’re married to an abusive man, he hits you and yells at you. But mine’s the most subversive type. If you’re a listener and you can relate to me in that. You know, he didn’t really smack me around. I have no bruises or broken fingers. He didn’t yell at me. ## THERAPISTS & CLERGY FAILURES **Nadira:** He was aggressive and argumentative. He lied to me, manipulated and coerced me. He told me at one point, true story, that he was always four steps ahead of me. Four, think about that. Think about being four steps ahead of someone. They do this, I do this, they do this, I do this, they do this, I do this, they do this, I do this. That’s insane, if I had that, I could have identified it. Because again, I was married to Mr. Nice Guy, Mr. I have a smile on my face while I’m getting aroused with the children. The effects on our children and family have been grotesque. It’s really bad, right? **Anne:** Yeah, it’s horrific. You have been through so much. Not just his abuse, but all the abuse from the therapists who were not helping. And clergy who were not protecting you. I’m so sorry. I’m so glad that you found my podcast. **Nadira:** So this has been monumental for me. Because we spent thousands of dollars, tons of time, and just every resource trying to help my ex-husband recover from addiction. It was the wrong path, honestly. But with that, your podcast and listening to the guests on your podcast have helped me wake up to this is just an abusive person. And to treat the whole thing from a different perspective. One of the things about your podcast, you know, it’s called Betrayal Trauma Recovery. So I’ve recommended it to several friends who have been abused. But everyone thinks it’s about just betrayal, right? And I tell everyone it’s not, but that’s the thing. I think about it a lot, by the way. ## EXPLOITATIVE MATERIAL AS A COVERT EMOTIONAL ABUSE ISSUE **Nadira:** Pornography, you know, is it freedom of choice or just abuse? Because that’s the big thing about it. People say it’s a first amendment thing, right? Like it’s freedom of speech. But if everybody came together, you and everybody came together. And talked about, in our culture, we’re allowing this abusive, destructive, national health crisis. We literally have a national health crisis on our hands. The masses aren’t educated. **Anne:** Everywhere I go, I say it is an abuse issue. It’s not a first amendment rights issue. or an addiction issue. It’s not a sex issue. It is an abuse issue. It always needs to be addressed from an abuse perspective. When I started Betrayal Trauma Recovery in my area, all the women dealing with their husband’s use were labeled as having betrayal trauma. And so part of what I wanted to do in labeling this podcast and the organization Betrayal Trauma Recovery was take that term and turn it into what it really is. We are healing from abuse. So I’m trying to make the term mean what it should mean. Which is when you are recovering from betrayal trauma, you are recovering from abuse. And the reason you’re recovering from abuse is because any betrayal of this type is abuse. ## FINDING THE RIGHT PATH TO RECOVERY Anne: It could be called abuse recovery. But so many people right now don’t see it as abuse. And so instead, they say, Oh, she’s suffering from betrayal trauma. Then they go down the addiction route. And I wanted to be like, anyone looking for stuff on betrayal trauma, or going down the addiction route, I wanted them to find this podcast. So that they could get the truth, instead of spending years and hundreds of thousands of dollars going down the wrong path. So I wanted to make Betrayal Trauma Recovery the place where any woman emotionally or psychologically abused. Or the victim of coercion could come and get the help she needed. Thank you for sharing your story today. We appreciate your insights. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Is Your Husband Future Faking? Here's How to Tell](https://www.btr.org/husband-future-faking/) **Published:** October 14, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Is your husband possibly future faking you? Find out how this manipulation tactic works. **Content:** **Husband future faking** is when a husband uses **promises about the future** (trips, counseling, moving, budgets, a baby, “I’ll change”) to control what you do **today**, delaying consequences, buying time, and keeping access, **without producing consistent, verifiable change.** ## FUTURE FAKING = PROMISES NOW, NO FOLLOW-THROUGH LATER - It **spikes after discovery** (you catch lies, porn, affairs, money issues). - Real change is **quiet, boring, measurable for months**, not speeches. - **Protect your safety** and watch behavior. ## 10 SIGNS YOUR HUSBAND IS FUTURE FAKING 1. **Vague timelines:** “Soon,” “after things calm down,” no date ever sticks. 2. **You do the labor:** You plan/pay while he “tries.” Brief performance, then slide. 3. **Story keeps shifting:** New reasons each week why the plan moved. 4. **No transparency:** Secret devices, hidden accounts, locked phone habits. 5. **Grand gestures after discovery:** Big promise wave right after you find evidence. 6. **Love-bomb sandwich:** Promise → short effort → quiet backslide → new promise. 7. **Pressure to trust, not verify:** You’re “negative” if you ask for proof. 8. **Budget “tomorrow,” spending “today”:** Money talks don’t match transactions. 9. **Therapy as theater:** He “goes to therapy,” but honesty and access never change. 10. **Your gut stays tense:** Your body doesn’t feel safer despite the speeches. ## FUTURE FAKING VS. REAL CHANGE (SIDE-BY-SIDE) | Future Faking (Control) | Real Change (Safety) | |---|---| | Big speeches, airy timelines | He does the thing. | | You carry logistics & cost | He does it and pays for it. | | Secret phones/finances | **Full access** (devices, locations, budget) | | Mood swings around scrutiny | The thing he said would be done is done. | | Short “streaks,” then relapse | **Months** of consistency, verified | To see if it’s real, you don’t need to **chase** updates. The thing he spoke about will come to fruition without you checking up on it. ## WHY HUSBANDS FUTURE FAKE - **Delay consequences:** Pause separation, legal steps, or financial boundaries. - **Maintain access:** Home, money, sex, reputation, kids. - **Manage your emotions:** Replace your alarm with hope—then run the same play again. ## HOW TO KNOW IF HE’S FUTURE FAKING ### DOCUMENT BEHAVIOR, NOT SPEECHES Create a **promise log** (date → promise → deadline → outcome → notes). Screenshot texts, calendar invites, bank statements. Patterns beat arguments. ### MOVE FROM TALK TO TESTS In your mind, move to thinking about **observable checkpoints** (e.g., “By \[date\], I’ll check to see if I have access to the bank account.”) (Notice: no threats, no explanations. You protect your peace and watch behavior.) ## EXAMPLES OF HUSBAND FUTURE FAKING - **“We’ll start counseling next month.”** - **“I’ll quit porn; you have to trust me.”** - **“I’ll fix the money stuff.”** ## FAQS ABOUT HUSBAND FUTURE FAKING **Is husband future faking a form of emotional abuse?** Yes. It manipulates your decisions today with promises that rarely materialize, keeping you in harm’s way emotionally. **How long should I wait for “real change”?** Look for **months** of quiet, consistent, verifiable behavior, without you bringing it up again. **Should I confront him about future faking?** Debate often feeds the cycle. **Document, set boundaries, and observe** from a safe distance. ## NEXT STEPS (SUPPORT THAT CENTERS YOUR SAFETY) - **[Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/)**: step-by-step **effective boundaries** (thought, action, communication) with practical examples. - **[BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/)**: live, daily online groups to support you. - **[Free Emotional Abuse Quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/)** on btr.org to name what’s happening and get tailored resources. ## TRANSCRIPT: IS YOUR HUSBAND FUTURE FAKING? HERE’S HOW TO TELL **Anne:** So, I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Mackenzie. Welcome. **Mackenzie:** So I happened to be at a conference, and there was a wonderful speaker there, and she introduced him. She talked a little bit about his story and sort of a larger context. And she’s a wonderful speaker and writer. She really sold him. So when I met him in person a month later. I had such a favorable impression. **Anne:** This happens with people who maybe get set up or people who attend the same congregation or workplace. Where his reputation sort of precedes him. It’s coming from other people, there’s kind of an automatic trust, because other people have vouched for him ahead of you meeting him. **Mackenzie:** Absolutely, yeah, when you have multiple solid professionals, people in the public eye. Who have these favorable relationships. There was a counselor, and they were a strong supporter, even financially with some of his work. So there was just a legitimacy. ## EARLY RED FLAGS OF HUSBAND FUTURE FAKING **Mackenzie:** Is my husband a jerk? And now with the benefit of hindsight, and more than a decade later, I can see that he carefully crafted this image. At least at the time I met him, he had done a pretty good job of it. He had obtained some prestigious fellowships. You know, you’re like, how did I not see it? But the truth is, how did they not see it? I was new in that space with important people surrounding him, and he really exploited that. I felt a little awestruck that he and I would have a conversation. Our relationship developed because he reached out and asked me to be part of these different groups. I think he added me on social media, and sent me a message. He started to ask me to do things, and I think that’s really important, because it was a low time in my life. And feeling like I could make a difference for a cause greater than myself was appealing. I was at the tail end of being part of a religious group, and I was looking for a place to belong. You hear a story of suffering, pain, and injustice. Regardless of the origin of the story, there’s a tenancy toward wanting to help. He wanted to use my speaking and writing skills for his organization. Kind of an informal, volunteer sort of thing. We would have different touch points, whether it was like a meeting, action or activity. He was definitely orchestrating the crossing of paths. ## HOW HUSBAND FUTURE FAKING LURES YOU IN (MOVING IN, PROMISES, AND RED FLAGS) **Mackenzie:** I was taking the LSAT. I had ambitions of being a lawyer. I think he felt that between my skills with writing, speaking, and then studying the law, I would be really helpful. Whether it was can you write this grant proposal for me? When you’re a good writer, it’s apparently an in demand skill that not great people want to access for themselves. It was a perfect storm. I had no idea what I was getting involved with, none. Never in my wildest dreams did I believe that a person who presented like this could use other people around them to cover up. I was really, really conflicted when he showed interest. **Anne:** Talk more about the conflict you experienced. **Mackenzie:** He claimed he and his ex spouse had attorneys working on their case. We are separated, it’s nearly done. I was so naive. He began to ask me, do you want to live with me in this fancy high rise apartment downtown? He didn’t live there, and he never ended up living there. Because he was future faking. **Anne:** Also, there’s probably some manipulation in terms of flattery. This person everybody else says is amazing, thinks I’m worth his attention. And this is how good they are at manipulation. **Mackenzie:** Yeah, it’s true. I wasn’t in need of anything from him. But I was lonely. I moved in with him. I had never had intercourse before. And I had my own career. Around the time I was like, it’s just not working. It’s just toxic. Too much conflict. I found out I was expecting my child. And I was raised in an environment where a two parent family is everything. ## DISCOVERING THE TRUTH: WHEN HUSBAND FUTURE FAKING TURNS INTO BETRAYAL **Mackenzie:** I was trying my hardest to make that work for what I believed was the right thing for my child. I even remember like a physical change in myself, the night I found out I was expecting. It was like I couldn’t fully stand up for myself anymore with him. I had to change myself so that he would respond more favorably. So that the environment for our child and me would be safer. I know now that’s not good. At the time, I thought I would work hard to help better our lives. When I knew something was really, really wrong, though. In the middle of my pregnancy, he was asleep and it was late. He locked his phone down. I’ve never met another person who locked down their devices to this degree. Who took them everywhere, bathroom, anywhere. I somehow got in his phone, and I found a conversation with a stranger, aggressively soliciting for it. And I was like in shock. I mean, I’m pregnant, and I’m terrified. I’m like, I need to get tested for STDs. You know, a range of thoughts. I was like shaking, and then I went and woke him up and confronted him. Probably the dumbest thing I could have done. And he just kind of sat there for a long time, and then he told me a story. He was trying to entrap the police, by reverse stinging their stings. The next day I had work, and after work I stayed somewhere else. I was like, I need to think. And then within a few days, I joined affair therapy groups and stuff. If your husband is acting like a jerk and you need live support, [attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session](https://www.btr.org/group/) today. ## AFTER THE PROMISES: THERAPY, FINANCIAL ABUSE, & HUSBAND FUTURE FAKING **Mackenzie:** Abuse wasn’t part of the conversation. It was a lot of just focusing on what you can do for yourself in your own situation. That’s the irony, I’m stuck in this dude’s mess. In the distraction of therapy groups, . And, I end up like, you know, moving back with him. **Anne:** You don’t know what you don’t know. **Mackenzie:** No, you don’t! Exactly! And when you’re raised in that church environment, you’re taught to trust people. I’m not looking for something I don’t know exists. **Anne:** Yeah, a church setting, they’re not like, this is wickedness. **Mackenzie:** Right. **Anne:** Avoid these people in your own home. They’re more like, there’s these bad people outside that are like, far away from us. **Mackenzie:** Right, the others. **Anne:** Yeah, exactly, rather than your own husband, or partner. **Mackenzie:** Yeah. **Anne:** The person close to you, is he a jerk or an evil person? **Mackenzie:** Exactly, he’s the person you’re supposed to trust and rely on. So at the end of the year that our child was born. My partner had a car accident and sustained a traumatic brain injury. This accident changed everything we were doing. And any negative that was going on before was amplified. And then there were quite a few new issues. He had extensive amounts of therapies: Neuropsychologists, physical therapy, occupational therapy, speech therapy, cognitive therapy. This became part of our life for several years, both in a hospital, in an outpatient setting, and then even in our home. We had therapists coming through the home. So through this, we did couples counseling. We actually got referred to what was supposedly one of the top couples counselors in this whole health system. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## WHY COUPLES COUNSELING OFTEN MISSES FUTURE FAKING & COVERT ABUSE **Mackenzie:** I like cleared an entire day of work. I was no longer going to work on Wednesdays, because we were going to go to couples counseling. And it was a huge deal. I had to like find childcare and all this stuff. Our case completely perplexed them. And after a few months, he told me he was “too sick” to go to counseling. And I put too sick in quote marks because he was not too sick to go to the Apple store. Yes, after his accident, he never went back to work. Not only did he not financially contribute in any meaningful way. He began to drain our finances to an extreme amount using various Apps and games. I mean, like hundreds and thousands of dollars were going missing. It was insane. Was it something like gambling? I’ll never truly know everything. He even used cryptocurrency. Then a couple of years later, just before we split, we did couples therapy again. I was so ambivalent by that point. I remember the therapist repeating seems like you don’t know you could go either way. And I was so numbed out by that point because of the amount of discoveries I’d found. Just outrageous behavior, betrayals, and frightening stuff. I tried to talk about a lot of it in counseling. But, in the counseling sphere, I don’t think abuse was brought up, and I had several counselors. ## THE FINAL STRAW: WHEN HUSBAND FUTURE FAKING ESCALATES TO CRIMINAL OR DANGEROUS BEHAVIOR Mackenzie: The most disturbing discovery I made was that he had conversations with teenagers on Snapchat, in texts. And I’m finding this out piecemeal, by having a computer left up. He was very, very shrewd and secretive, extremely secretive. I found he was sending pictures of our child, using our child as part of grooming someone else. I was outraged. And that was the point, enough things had happened. I decided I am not going to confront him about this. **Anne:** Ah, using the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop strategies](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). **Mackenzie:** Absolutely, so it took me a little over a year. I did some big career moves, I prepared in secret. I wanted to sustain myself and my child. We weren’t married, but in our state, there is this common law factor. Due to so much interaction with the medical system. He had encouraged me to begin to refer to him as my husband. It was calculated. The last couple’s counselor, the last time I talked with her, I called her and I was so apologetic. I’m like, I’m so sorry. I know I did not cancel with 24 hours notice, we’re not going to be able to have our couples counseling session today because I’m trying to see if there’s a tracker on my car. **Anne:** Yeah, that is crazy that you went to multiple therapists and none of them identified it as abuse. **Mackenzie:** I know, I could go on and on about post separation abuse and legal problems. I learned later, thanks to the IRS, about actual criminal activity. He was caught red handed through Snapchat and Instagram. Yeah, he was sentenced to decades in prison. ## BREAKING FREE FROM HUSBAND: LEGAL PROTECTION & SAFETY PLANNING **Mackenzie:** I got a protective order when I left. I spent beyond my life savings on legal fees to protect myself and my child. Because I realized, this person was so destructive. I mean, I haven’t even mentioned there’s assault. There’s so many things, but this person was just hell bent on destruction and doing what they wanted to do. And I needed to protect myself and my child. That’s why I filed for divorce from someone I wasn’t married to, because I wanted a legal end to any connection with this person. Because they’re terrifying, like, absolutely terrifying. Like, when I left, he stalked me, actually showed up at my workplace looking for me. And he’s still a victim. I hadn’t heard from him in a long time, but a few months ago, he sent a letter to my dad’s house. He was pretty much an atheist when we were together, but now it looks like he’s found God. **Anne:** Let’s just add spiritual abuse to it. **Mackenzie:**Yeah, never in my wildest dreams would I expect someone who’s publicly advocating for others and putting themselves in the super public role. Would actually commit behind the scenes crimes with other people’s children. This goes way beyond just being a jerk. When you put it all together, and I spent years in a caregiving role for this person. I funded their life. Whatever money he was getting. He did not put in the family pot, but whatever I earned, he needed access to it. **Anne:** Wow, did the advocates who propped him up and supported him become aware that he was a criminal and in prison? ## LIFE AFTER FUTURE FAKING: REBUILDING TRUST & RECOGNIZING MANIPULATION **Mackenzie:** Yes, most of those people, to my knowledge, do not support him now. He borrowed quite a sum of money to bail himself out of jail. And that money didn’t go back to that person. I think it shows you the mind of someone like this, someone with an antisocial personality. The mind of someone who is rational, but with no conscience. There is no boundary, they will not limit themselves to any sort of moral behavior. Periodically, he’d tell me I was his moral compass. And I didn’t really understand what he meant by that. But I think I get it a little more now. He had no real moral direction. **Anne:** To use a good cause as a shield for your own bad behavior is really alarming. **Mackenzie:** It is, it makes me suspicious of people who are extremely vocal, especially men. It makes me wonder, because I’ve seen the underside of that. I trust a lot less than I did before. **Anne:** Um hmm, yeah, that makes sense. I appreciate you taking the time to share your story with us. Thank you so much. You’ve been through so much, and I’m happy to hear that you are safe. **Mackenzie:** Thank you so much for having me on here. I really appreciate it. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast **Tags:** Trauma Workshops --- ### [Codependents Anonymous & Betrayal: What No One Tells You](https://www.btr.org/codependents-anonymous/) **Published:** October 21, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Has your husband (or his therapist) used codependency to harm you? You need to know this. **Content:** Has your husband (or his therapist) weaponized codependency language to harm you? Here’s why codependents anonymous might not be right for you. ## IS CODEPENDENTS ANONYMOUS THE ANSWER FOR BETRAYED WIVES? When a husband lies and cheats, many women are told: *“You’re codependent. You should go to Codependents Anonymous.”* But here’s the truth: men often pick up “codependency” language from sexual addiction therapists or marriage counselors, but it’s actually a form of victim blaming. When a professional slaps the “codependent” label on a wife who’s been betrayed, it shifts responsibility for his lying or cheating onto her. Suddenly, she’s told her “neediness” or “lack of boundaries” is part of the problem. ## HOW YOUR HUSBAND MAY USE CODEPENDENTS ANONYMOUS AGAINST YOU Men who abuse and betray find blaming their wife’s codependency useful because if you’re “codependent,” then *you* share the blame. And you end up working on yourself while he keeps lying. Women already blame themselves enough. Adding a “codependency” label just deepens the confusion, leaving victims focused on self-improvement instead of safety. That’s how the cycle of [emotional abuse](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/) keeps going. **A Better Path Forward** If you’ve been lied to or betrayed, you don’t need to be labeled. You need support, safety, and clarity. [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/) meet daily and offer women the safe space. ## TRANSCRIPT: MY HUSBAND WEAPONIZED CODEPENDENTS ANONYMOUS TO HIDE THE TRUTH **Anne:** I’m welcoming Melinda on today’s episode, who is like all of us are. She is the wife of a sex addict. The reason why I wanted her to come on today is that she commented on one of the articles on btr. org. Every single podcast that we do is transcribed and turned into an article and put on Betrayal Trauma Recovery’s website, btr.org. We love people’s comments here. So if you haven’t joined the conversation, I welcome you to do that. Just comment below. And that’s how I met Melinda. So welcome, Melinda. **Melinda:** Hi there. Thanks for having me. **Anne:** So let’s start with your story, Melinda. How did your husband weaponize codependency and codependents anonymous language? **Melinda:** My husband revealed he had been having an affair. And later revealed he had been seeing a sex masseuse and also abusing pornography. We entered into a process of trying to figure out what was going on. I understood it was not my fault, and that it was something that I felt we could overcome together. He struggled a lot with all of it, and ultimately showed that he couldn’t meet me where I needed to be met, so that I can recover from the betrayal. But for a period of time, he entered 12 step, and he also actually, I should say, has been trained as a counselor. ## THERAPY & CODEPENDENTS ANONYMOUS **Melinda:** And when we entered therapy after the revelations of his betrayal, something kept coming up that was baffling to me. Our therapist reinforced it, that somehow there was something in our dynamic that I was responsible for. That’s why he did what he did and was acting out in the way he was. I was trying to wrap my head around it because I’m a person who takes a lot of responsibility for our own behavior and actions. But I’m like, this doesn’t make any sense. I have also done a lot of work professionally, understanding trauma. So I was already under a trauma orientation, thinking I’m traumatized. Why am I not getting understood here? Why does it keep coming back to something in my psychological makeup that’s creating this dynamic of his acting out behavior? **Anne:** Essentially, it was trying to get you to take some form of accountability for the situation. **Melinda:** Yes, and later I kind of understood where this is coming from when I started learning more about 12 step and Codependents anonymous and what that means. How therapists and some in the 12 step field think about codependency. I realized that a lot of that thinking was damaging to me. And neglected that his acting out was really, I’ve heard you use the term abuse, and I don’t know if I want to use that term, but it was definitely abusive. And a lot of his behavior, aside from the sexual acting out, was passive aggressive covert abuse, ## CODEPENDENCY AS AN EXCUSE **Anne:** Emotional abuse in the form of lies and manipulation. **Melinda:** Yeah, and a charming and playful facade. A lot of it was gaslighting as well. What I realized is that codependency was a great excuse for him to not take responsibility. We had problems prior to this throughout our relationship. The problems in my view was that he did not take accountability for behavior and responsibilities. When the word codependency or the concept of Codependents Anonymous came into our relationship. It just became another tool to gaslight me and deflect. It was confusing for a while, because I want to take accountability. But he used it to not actually address the harm he caused. **Anne:** There’s that, and then it goes further than that. Because he’s not just using it to avoid accountability for the harm he’s caused. He’s also using it to try and pin it on you. That’s why I call that abuse, because he actively attempts to harm you. **Melinda:** Yes, yes **Anne:** I mean, he doesn’t see it that way. He just thinks he’s trying to get away with it, but that is the end result. The end result is that he’s harming you even further by lying about your part. **Melinda:** Yeah, I became a scapegoat for many, many things, and this just allowed even more scapegoating. You know, his decisions to cheat and all the other stuff were part of that scapegoating. I didn’t understand why this was happening. I was reading a lot of books on how to help your partner heal, and what does reconciliation look like? And I was bringing them to him, and he kept coming up with, why don’t you focus on yourself? [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## FOCUS ON SELF VS. RELATIONSHIP: CODEPENDENTS ANONYMOUS **Melinda:** And I’m thinking, I’m focusing on what I need to allow you back into my life. And anytime I said, you know, your defensiveness is hurting me. I don’t trust you, you’re not doing trustworthy things. He said, well, stop focusing on me and focus on yourself. It didn’t make sense until I started looking at what Codependency Anonymous tells people. It tells them to focus on themselves, not on others. Which sounds great, but in the hands of an abusive and exploitative person, it can go awry. **Anne:** Well, and also it’s what they want you to do. They would like you to stop confronting them about their abusive behaviors. So because that’s what they want, they want you to “work on yourself,” which to them means leave me alone. **Melinda:** And a lot of this is about thinking that you’re controlling. And my orientation, philosophical and spiritual frame. I have a Christian background. But I have more alignment with Buddhist mindfulness practices, as well as I’ve become more of a feminist. I think about feminist psychology much more. I look at it in that frame, and I see a lot of women being held responsible for men’s behavior in the culture. And I think that was just a natural extension of the woman is making me do this. He even intimated that the affair partner was the aggressor in this situation. And that somehow she was this temptress. **Anne:** What could I do? She kissed me. I couldn’t do anything about it, right? **Melinda:** So I’m always aware of the gender dynamic, and our therapists played along with it. ## THERAPIST’S ROLE IN ABUSE **Melinda:** She was a new therapist. So that was like the double trauma of facing the reality of his infidelity and all that. And then a therapist reflecting it back on me in our supposedly safe setting. **Anne:** It sounds like the therapist became an extension of the abuse. So let’s go back to where you’re being supportive of his recovery. Did you ever attend 12 step or COSA, which is co sex addicts? Did you ever attend either of those groups? **Melinda:** I did. What struck me was that I felt in COSA, I had to align with Codependents Anonymous. One of the few times I went for instance, there was one woman agonizing over her partner. Who was holed up in the basement with the computer looking at pornography. He wouldn’t leave the house, and I hear her describe the story. Instead of saying how angry and indignant about how wrong that was. And how inappropriate that was, she went back to, well, I’m going to focus on myself, take care of myself. ## CHALLENGES IN CONFRONTING ABUSE **Melinda:** And I thought, are you allowing abuse in your home because it’s easier? Because you don’t know how to set the boundary or even draw a line? I just felt like she just caved in to feeling like she’s beholden to the situation and must allow it to continue. **Anne:** I think that happens a lot. Women don’t know what to do, and confronting it seems so difficult. Also the consequences of confronting it seem so difficult. Like, I can’t do that. And so, I’ll focus on myself, which becomes a way for them to do something. I feel a lot of compassion in this stage for victims, because it’s difficult to know what to do. Living with an abuser or divorcing an abuser. Both choices are not good. The best choice is if you could have him not be abusive anymore, which you have no control over. So it’s a way that victims try to empower themselves sometimes. And I think that all of us go through a stage like that. We can hold a space of compassion for ourselves when we were in that stage and others in that stage, as they work through exactly what they need to feel safe, because it takes time. **Melinda:** Yeah, absolutely, I certainly had to accept where he was in his path. And that it was not in alignment with where I wanted to be. So that definitely took time. ## EMPOWERMENT & BOUNDARIES WITH CODEPENDENTS ANONYMOUS **Melinda:** Just really allowing myself to feel how terrible the codependency situation was. And that allowed me to move forward. Realizing that I wasn’t the kind of person who was gonna say, well I’m gonna focus on making myself happy. And let him have his life in our home in our relationship. That wasn’t gonna work for me. I could not abide a relationship with a person taking advantage of the situation to gain advantage of my compassion, my understanding. And really not supporting me and being a fair partner. And so that’s why I bring up about gender, and are women being encouraged to look the other way and take responsibility for men’s bad behavior. Just the message that we have to even help take care of them. And I think that can easily become exploited with Codependency Anonymous. **Anne:** Absolutely. ## THERAPY-INDUCED TRAUMA **Anne:** With this concept of codependency in your experience with therapists, how did Codependents Anonymous cause therapy induced trauma? Let’s talk about that for a bit. **Melinda:** Yeah, we had worked with mostly traditional therapists, marriage and family therapists. **Anne:** Many sex addiction therapists claim to know about betrayal trauma, but they don’t actually practice it. They just do codependency and call it betrayal trauma. And that is dangerous. Sex addiction therapists don’t seem to understand it. The best people seem to be abuse experts from what we’ve experienced. **Melinda:** A therapist we’d been with for a long time left me with a lot of trauma. I have a lot of hesitation to even find a new therapist. Codependency is a framework that’s part of a lot of therapy training. It’s a dance, that you have a relationship dance, and you each have a part in all your stuff and his stuff. Our therapists fail to recognize, like you said, abuse and trauma. So they fail to understand what abuse looks like, what covert abuse looks like, and what emotional abuse looks like. That abusers can come into an office and look like the calmest, sweetest, most cooperative people. While you’re the partner tearing her hair out and looking like a crazy woman in the office. Then you look like the one who’s unhinged and angry. And our therapist did say, if it wasn’t for your dynamic, he wouldn’t have cheated. And I later realized, no, it has nothing to do with me. I had to realize that it was part of his retaliation for me, even having expectations of cooperation and accountability in our relationship. ## NEUTRALITY IN THERAPY **Melinda:** And instead of being cooperative and accountable. He thought, well, she’s no good. She’s giving me a hard time. Women on Pornhub are better for me. **Anne:** Right, which is what abusers want. They would like to manipulate and, I won’t say, beat down physically, but to the point where they get what they want. That’s the point of the abuse. I mean, I had to retrain my brain with [affirmations for emotional abuse victims](/affirmations-for-emotional-abuse-victims/). And for a therapist not to notice it, it’s also interesting in the progressive communities, for example. And I tend to live in that world, in an effort to be politically correct. They end up throwing victims under the bus unknowingly with Codependents Anonymous. So you’d think they would understand abuse, but I have found neither side understands it. conservatives and liberals, neither one of those groups truly understands abuse. **Melinda:** Yes, I don’t think therapists actually understand trauma and how to be trauma informed around betrayal. Our therapist was trained to be even handed, you don’t take sides. **Anne:** Neutrality only serves the perpetrator, because neutrality is there are two sides to the story, and both stories are of equal truth. And it serves the perpetrator, because if they can say, I did this, but she did this. We have this toxic dance. It’s a toxic relationship, rather than saying, I’m the abuser. Some go as far as to say, I didn’t do anything wrong, and she’s the abuser. So many victims are accused of abuse themselves, which is also super scary. **Melinda:** Yes. ## VICTIM BLAMING IN THERAPY **Melinda:** And in fact, in our therapy sessions and even my conversations with my spouse, I said, you know, he betrayed me. I said this to our therapist. He betrayed me. And she said, well, I think you’ve both betrayed each other. And I thought, what are you talking about? What are you talking about? I did not. And I’ve only had loyalty and allegiance to our marriage and family life together. So that was just red meat for him to feed his victimhood, **Anne:** I’m guessing the abuse got worse. **Melinda:** Codependents Anonymous just continued the pattern of blaming me, being covertly abusive, gaslighting and love bombing. Then he’d wonder why I withdrew. And blowing up at me for withdrawal. And just kept continuing. As I saw this pattern over and over again, I’m holding my boundary. I’m saying clearly what I need, what I expect. He couldn’t get past that in my boundary. He tried love bombing. I love you, I love you, I love you. He tried all kinds of things. He wanted me to let go of what I knew in my heart was needed for us to have a healthy relationship. For me to let go of expectations of him and by declaring his undying love and grandiose gestures, and I wasn’t going to accept it. I knew in my heart that I needed something authentic. ## LOVE BOMBING & MANIPULATION **Anne:** Like one woman, she said, okay, I’m going to file for divorce. She filed, he came back and said, I’ll do anything. I’ll do anything. And she said, okay, these are the things you need to do. And he didn’t do those things, but he would say the right things, right? So you can clearly see when their actions are not matching their words. That’s manipulation, grooming, love bombing and not recovery. With no need for Codependents Anonymous. **Melinda:** And of course, when I said here love bombing, he said, How do you judge me? You’re judging me. And so I thought, I’m not going to get anywhere, because I’m trying to call out and name the things that are not right in this situation. That are not working with the desire to see things work, not to punish. And that was another accusation that I constantly faced. That I was trying to punish, control and avoid my own problems by naming what was happening. **Anne:** Well, the weird thing is that one of your own problems is that you were being abused. So you clearly stated one of your own problems. **Melinda:** Women use their voice. and speak up. A lot of our rage and anger in these situations is that we’re tired of being exploited, abused or taken advantage of. We’re written off, we’re told we’re crazy or want to control everything. I think we have to recognize male entitlement in many situations. ## EMPOWERMENT THROUGH BOUNDARIES **Melinda:** I think that gets missed when we’re just thinking about, well, women are punishing because she can’t look at her own stuff. Or she’s controlling the situations because of her own trauma. And I think so many women are pretty self-reflective and pretty thoughtful. Women have been working on their own sort of self healing for many, many years. Let’s celebrate that and acknowledge that women have evolved a lot of good self care, and empowerment. Abusive men need to have a lot more work around how to come along with us. I do think the Codependency Anonymous models kind of holding women responsible for their partner’s alcoholism, that’s just from another time. And I think. women are doing their own healing. They’ve been doing it for a long time. I think we need to work on abusive men and their entitlement. **Anne:** I love feminist theory. I’m a happy, unabashed and unapologetic feminist. And I think radical feminism is the only way to beat this. By saying my opinions are just as important as yours. What I want in a marriage is just as important, and if you want someone who will be quiet and look the other way. This marriage will not work for me. And I, as a woman, have the right to say that, and I have the right to set boundaries around it. It’s okay with me if that’s not what you want. ## MIRRORING WITH LIES **Anne:** And if it’s not, then have a nice life. So when I first married. I am opposed, and I know that many listeners aren’t. So I do not want to offend anyone right now. I oppose guns and motorcycles. When I dated my ex-husband, I said to him, if you like guns and motorcycles, that is super cool for you, right? Like, I am so happy for you. That’s great. I will not date you. So you just do your thing, shine on, and live your life. And he told me, I don’t ride motorcycles. And I don’t like guns. I’m not a gun person. And I was like, cool. Well, I found out later that was a complete lie and manipulation. So I tried to be upfront, I was very obvious about it, what I wanted. And he thought he could gaslight me. Rather than saying, oh, you know what? I love guns and motorcycles. We’re probably not a good fit. Do you know what I mean? So same thing with a pornography. I don’t want someone who will cheat and look at pornography, lie and manipulate me. So if that’s who you are, then shine on. You live your life just far away from me. And I think women are becoming empowered to the point where they can start saying that. The hard thing is when the man looks like that person, when he manipulates you. ## DATING AFTER ABUSE **Anne:** And now I’m not dating, but if I go on a date I would actually probably keep my opinions to myself, because I don’t want him to know what I think, I just want to know what he thinks. With no desire for codependency or need of Codependents Anonymous. So I’d maybe say, How do you feel about guns? Without telling him what I thought, so that I could hear what he thought, just without knowing what I thought. Does that make sense? So that I can’t be manipulated. So I think my dating strategy will be much more cautious and take it a lot slower, and also not put everything out there while I get to know the person. Because I don’t want them to use it against me or to use it to manipulate me. I’m afraid someone will groom me again. Let’s put it that way. **Melinda:** Yeah, I think men in this world have to understand what we’ve been through and why we may come off as guarded or protective, or suspicious. Despite our best intentions to be trusting and open hearted, there’s a lot that some of us have been through that makes that very difficult. **Anne:** Well, and I think we’ve learned to look for what a trustworthy person looks like. It takes time. You cannot determine that from a five minute conversation or a 10 minute conversation. You can’t determine it from a one two hour date. It takes time, years and experience to figure out whether someone is trustworthy. So taking our time is important. ## NOT BEING MANIPULATED ANYMORE **Anne:** And had we done that before, we might not have even hit the nail on the head. Because we might not have known what we were looking for, but we know better now, which is awesome. **Melinda:** That’s a great point. I think that’s where I’ve arrived to know clearly what I’m about. And when I see something disconnected, or when I meet someone disconnected from that, it’s incompatible. I can see it more clearly, and that helps, I think. That you just know yourself better and recognize somebody else that might be unhealthy for you. To your point of having the boundaries and being willing to say, you know, this isn’t for me. This relationship isn’t for me, because, you know, you’re doing you, and it’s not working for me. That I know not all women can do that. I know so many women trapped in these situations, for whatever reason. And leaving is, may feel worse than staying if they held their boundary. But for me, I found that as I struggled, we have two children. So leaving took a while, but eventually I found the logistical possibilities to make it happen, to have him leave. That’s when things really changed. He couldn’t hide and manipulate me anymore because he wasn’t around. I could stand more firmly, and then he had to reckon with himself. And so, he reckons with himself now. I’m still not sure if that’ll bring us back together. **Anne:** Well, thank you so much Melinda for coming on today’s podcast. I appreciate you sharing your story, and I loved the word weaponizing. So I want everybody to consider in what ways certain therapy language hurts abuse victims. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [The Truth About "Reactive Abuse" - Here's What You Need to Know](https://www.btr.org/reactive-abuse/) **Published:** October 23, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** "Reactive Abuse" isn't real. But guess what is: victims using self defense to protect themselves. **Content:** Have you done something that you’re ashamed of or embarrassed about in response to your husband’s abuse? Here’s the thing, “reactive abuse” isn’t a thing. You were defending yourself against abuse, and that’s always healthy. Abusers often use “reactive abuse” to falsely portray your behavior as harmful. Therapists, clergy, or anyone else who uses this term misunderstand abuse. You were protecting yourself from abuse, and that’s completely normal! To find out if you’re suffering from his emotional abuse, take our [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ## “REACTIVE ABUSE” IS THE ABUSER’S GOAL > To label a victim as an “abuser” when she is trying to protect herself is exactly what the abuser wants. He wants people to think, “*They’re both abusive.”* An abuser will never admit there’s no wrong way to protect yourself. > > Anne Blythe, Hosf of The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast – BTR.ORG The concept of “reactive abuse” is rooted in the idea that when a woman defends herself, she’s somehow in the wrong. Here are the [best books about emotional abuse](/books-about-emotional-abuse/) that will help you. But it’s NEVER wrong to try to protect yourself. It’s called self defense, and it’s always healthy. ![What Is Reactive Abuse?](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/lSmDwFjUFFQ/maxresdefault.jpg) ## IT’S NOT “REACTIVE ABUSE” – IT’S SELF DEFENSE Imagine a bully on a playground relentlessly teasing a younger child. The younger child tries to talk it out, enlists teachers for help, hides, and eventually snaps. Then the adults punish the younger child, while the bully skillfully hides his cruelty. At BTR.ORG, we know that taking protective action isn’t wrong, even if he twists it to paint you in a negative light. ## HOW DO I STOP ACTING OUTSIDE OF MY VALUE SYSTEM? Many women in the BTR.ORG community ask: I know I’m defending myself, but how do I get him to stop accusing me of reactive abuse and being the abuser when I did nothing wrong? As long as you’re in close proximity to an abuser, you’ll probably find yourself taking protective action from time to time. To discover strategies to communicate with an abuser in a way that he won’t able to weaponize, enroll in [The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). At BTR.ORG, we know the utter hopelessness that can accompany [emotional abuse](https://www.btr.org/is-my-husband-emotionally-abusive/). You deserve peace. [Get support, attend one of our Group Sessions TODAY](https://www.btr.org/group/ "Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group"). **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma --- ### [What Did God Say About Divorce? The Liberating Truth](https://www.btr.org/what-does-god-say-about-divorce-and-marriage/) **Published:** October 28, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** If you're wondering, what does God say about divorce and marriage? Here's what you need to know. **Content:** You might think you already know the answer to this question: “What does God say about divorce?” But here’s the thing, the Bible has told righteous people throughout all of time to separate themselves from wickedness. The word we use today for “wickedness” is abuse. So the first step to knowing what God may want you to do about your marriage is to discover if you’re experiencing emotional abuse. Click here to take my [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ## TRANSCRIPT: WHAT DID GOD SAY ABOUT DIVORCE? **Anne:** I have a member of our community. On today’s episode, we’re gonna call her Kayla. She’s going to be sharing her story. Kayla is a woman of faith. Part of her story is sharing when she realized she didn’t need to listen to what her pastor said. Or people at her church, so that she could develop her own relationship with God. And find out for herself what God says about divorce and marriage. If you’re not a woman of faith, if you’re agnostic or atheist, her story will still relate to you. I don’t know why modern Christianity has taken this stance that the “other people” are dangerous. But refuse to see that maybe someone living in your own home is dangerous. The scriptures are clear about God’s stance on divorce and marriage. ## 4 SCRIPTURES THAT TEACH WHAT GOD REALLY SAYS ABOUT DIVORCE Here are four that might help: Proverbs 22:3 “The prudent see danger and take refuge.” So that means that we should separate ourselves from dangerous people. II Corinthians 6: 17 “Therefore, come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing that I will receive you.” They’re talking about somebody who lies to you, somebody who is exploiting women. Matthew 10:16 “I’m sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and innocent as doves.” That’s talking about strategy, and you can learn more about what strategies we recommend. By enrolling in [the Living Free Workshop. Get more information about that by clicking on this link.](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) John 16: 13 “The Spirit of truth will guide you into all truth.” Obviously, God wants us to be safe and loves us, and that clergy or anyone else interprets scriptures to oppress us and tell us what God says about divorce and marriage,That’s spiritual abuse. And Kayla’s gonna share her story. The Holy Spirit warns and guides us. He helps us recognize danger and make decisions to protect ourselves. ## KAYLA’S EARLY RELATIONSHIP **Anne:** So welcome, Kayla. **Kayla:** I’m glad to be here. **Anne:** Let’s start at the beginning when you first met, did you recognize his abusive behaviors? **Kayla:** Well, no, from the start he carried himself as a complete gentleman. We worked together at a Fortune 500 company. When we met, he kept boundaries. That made me believe he had values. He appeared to have everything I wanted, handsome, courteous, church going and a family man. We had a lot of the same interests, new restaurants, bowling and cruising. His family loved me. My family loved him. He put me on a pedestal. And of course. I loved it. So I painted this picture of him, like this church going person with character. I couldn’t see him for who he was. You know, his behavior was subtle, like of financial, understanding or miscommunication. And I just kind of attributed to his upbringing. We had kids pretty quickly. So three to four years into our marriage, I wasn’t feeling the connection anymore and I was trying to improve our relationship. I thought that God was clear on divorce and marriage. I tried having deep conversations with him, but he often fell asleep or said we can talk later. But later never came. And he had this tendency to not follow through, and he was having this trouble not only at home, but also at work. ## WORK & HOME CHALLENGES **Kayla:** He was an IT person, and when he wasn’t going to his customer’s desk to help them, he would fall asleep. When he did his work, he made mistakes when he had to write-up. The write up of what he did, he forgot to do it. Many times it went missing. He didn’t follow through. So he was getting to the point where they were putting him on probation. Because he was sleeping on the job because he wasn’t doing his job. And the same things I was seeing at home, not following through, falling asleep in the middle of a conversation. So it’s what led me to say maybe you need to get in a professional evaluation. **Anne:** Okay, so you’re thinking, let’s see if something’s wrong. Just hearing this part, I wonder if he wasn’t paying attention, because he was doing stuff late at night. Where he wasn’t getting a lot of sleep and distracted with the double life he had going on. That’s my prediction, so we’ll talk about it a little later. Okay, so he gets diagnosed? **Kayla:** He was diagnosed with ADD. He got on a DD medicine, and that seemed to help him at work. I didn’t get the benefits. Even though he claimed to be taking a second pill when he got home. I didn’t see the benefits of the follow through, the discipline, the focus at all. I thought his forgetfulness, his lack of follow through, his emotional distance were all symptoms he couldn’t fully control and I just felt I needed to be patient and supportive. ## WHAT DOES GOD SAY ABOUT DIVORCE & MARRIAGE? EFFORTS TO IMPROVE **Kayla:** Like I set times, let’s talk every night at nine o’clock. Let’s talk about our feelings, let’s talk about our relationship, our finances. But most of those conversations, I was left feeling empty and unimportant. And yes, we sought counseling. We went to yearly marriage conferences with our church. We went to a pastor for advice and support. I was trying to hard to honor what God wanted in my marriage and to save us from divorce. So I suggested and we attend couples therapy to help our relationship. I met with the therapist. He met with the therapist, and we met once a month. We paid over $7,000 for 13 weeks Christian transformation sessions. And besides, we were the president of the marriage ministry, helping others with their marriage. I did a lot of personal reflection and improvement. I took the time when he came home, that first 30 minutes, to let him be to himself. ## HERE’S WHAT GOD SAYS ABOUT DIVORCE And I remember coming home from the marriage conference, learning that our bodies were not ours. And we should meet our spouse’s needs. Whenever they asked, I tried it. And without the emotional connection, I felt hollowed, used. I just couldn’t do that. **Anne:** Right. **Kayla:** I read books, books like *Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus*, *How to Have a Healthy Marriage*. Our marriage vows before God made it harder, I think, for me to see the truth. Because I was deeply rooted in the idea that my marriage covenant was sacred and unbreakable. So it kept me focused on holding the relationship together at all costs. So I stayed with prayer, effort, and patience, while my ex-husband didn’t seek to improve. And I just kept praying and putting the effort in. Thinking I knew what God thought about divorce and marriage, and that I had to make it work. ## REALIZATION OF DEEPER ISSUES **Kayla:** I don’t know anyone who has put more effort into trying to hold their marriage together. I just did a lot to try to hold our marriage together. **Anne:** When did you start realizing that all of this concerted effort was not working . **Kayla:** Wow, so we attended this 13 weeks of extensive Christian transformation marriage sessions. It required that we work on a different aspect of our marriage every night. So we met in the weekly sessions. We had sessions directly with the Christian coaches, and we did something at night. **Anne:** Was there abuse education as part of this intensive? **Kayla:** No, it was all about seeking God, praying for your spouse, building your spouse up, looking at things differently. It was all saying that God hated divorce, and I had to save my marriage. **Anne:** So there was no abuse education whatsoever. **Kayla:** Not at all. So we were talking every night. He started to come to bed, which you were alluding to. Many nights he did not come to bed. He stayed up all night long. And so things started feeling better. So much so that I believed we had reached a good place. But then things started happening again. I started feeling disconnected, and I went to him for some tweaks. Instead of trying to understand what I was feeling, what I was thinking. He started deflecting and minimizing, and started talking about how he didn’t feel loved. And I put my feelings aside, and I asked him. Send me an email to explain why you don’t feel love and what it would look like for you to feel love. ## CONFRONTING THE TRUTH **Kayla:** He emailed me a letter. In this letter, he wrote things like, I would like you to serve me a plate of food and bring it to me. After intimacy, I want you to get me a cold drink. I want you to dress provocatively for our nights out. I was just floored, he wanted me to do his chores. That was his responsibility in the house, like taking out the trash, pulling the cans to the street. And that letter, I realized I didn’t know this man I was married to. And I realized it had to do with his wants and removing his responsibilities in the house, more than me showing love to him. **Anne:** Right. **Kayla:** And that’s when I realized something is desperately wrong. And then I went back to our therapist, and I said, I want to ask him about watching exploitative material. Because early on in our marriage, it had come up. I caught I caught him looking at it, and he said, oh, if you don’t want me to look at it, I won’t look at it anymore. I believed him, but didn’t believe him. So what I mean by that is, every now and then I would check his computer. I would check his phone, nothing. Nothing was there at all. But in that therapy session, when I asked the question, he looked down, his face looked flooded with shame, almost in tears. And he admitted he was addicted and had been since he was a teenager. He rationalized it in his mind that it was okay, because he wasn’t touching a woman in the flesh. It was at that moment that I realized that all the work I had been doing didn’t matter. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## WHAT DOES GOD SAY ABOUT DIVORCE & MARRIAGE? HE ADMITS HE’S AN ADDICT **Kayla:** All the work that my therapist had done to build our relationship only worked in a healthy relationship. And I realized we didn’t have one. For 24 years he had been watching exploitative material. And later to find out so much more than that, but he said he had been watching it all day long. **Anne:** And all night long. **Kayla:** All night long. **Anne:** Was my prediction accurate? That’s why he was so tired and distracted? **Kayla:** Your prediction is 100% correct. He was up late at night. And one of my complaints was, why don’t you come to bed? And he would say, I’m not sleepy, and when I do come to bed too early, I can’t fall asleep. I just lay in bed. **Anne:** Says the man who’s falling asleep all the time. **Kayla:** Yes. **Anne:** Mm-hmm, yeah, so when he tells you he’s been using, it’s not the whole truth at this point. Is he identified as an addict? **Kayla:** He identified himself as a addict. But really, it was that moment, that moment when I realized the extent of his betrayal, just to paint the picture for you. I never thought he could deceive me, especially not in that way. So everything about us changed, and I realized I needed to rely on God. So my prayer just became God, uproot what’s in me, what’s in my husband, what’s in my marriage that’s not of you, I still was not considering divorce. God, give my husband what he needs to be disciplined, focused, and changed. And if he’s not going to put the work in, do not let me move forward until you’ve made it clear that he’s changed and repentance of the heart. ## NEVER THINKING IT COULD BE MORE **Kayla:** I was so up in the head from the fact that he had deceived me. I had to rely on God. But even then, I would’ve never thought it could be more. Because we did almost everything together. He didn’t hang out. We went to work. He came home, he went to church, he came home. But he was manipulating things, so his phone, he was going in incognito mode. On the computer, he was going into private browsing. When he went to the store, he went to a sex massage parlor. Or when we were on vacation finding a street prostitute. I just had no idea that any of this was going on. SAI asked him to go into a recovery program. He started SA, but he was only going once a week to say he was going. He wasn’t doing any of the work. I then joined Infidelity Survivors Anonymous. I spoke privately to someone in the group, and she recommended I receive a full disclosure and a polygraph test. Because he might be doing more than pornography. And that’s what prompted me to eventually ask him if he had cheated with anyone during our marriage, under the certainty that he would have to take a polygraph test. That’s when things started becoming a little bit clearer. Because my ex was so covert, I kept saying, my ex just has a DD. My ex would never do that to me. You know, he loves me. He’s trying, I was still making excuses for him in my head. I was thinking about forgiveness and mercy, and that’s what God wanted in my marriage, not divorce. **Anne:** I wouldn’t say you’re making excuses per se. I think you’re still resisting the abuse. ## EMOTIONAL & FINANCIAL ABUSE **Anne:** Safety is always a top priority for women. You’ve been trying to get to safety this whole time. You’re trying to get to emotional safety, you’re trying to get to psychological safety. You’re doing this through getting his ADD diagnosis through counseling. These are forms of resistance to abuse. You are really safety focused this entire time. So it’s not that you’re in denial, it’s that you’re trying to get to safety with the information you have at the moment. So you can let yourself off the hook you only knew what you knew at that time. God wants us to be safe in our marriage, even if that means divorce. **Kayla:** Right, at that moment I thought he only had an addiction. And I would’ve put my hands on the Bible that he never touched another woman. So when we had a therapy session. I asked him the question knowing that he was gonna have to take a polygraph test, and he said, yes, my brain left my body. Like I felt the abuse instantly. It was like, what just happened? How could he have been pretending to be this man of God, this deacon at church? This church school teacher, all this time, telling me how much he loved me and was trying to do better. It made everything that I was thinking. That he was gaslighting me or deflecting and minimizing, and he was telling me that. Oh no, that’s not what’s happening. Oh, you are misinterpreting that. It made everything true for me. He had not only been emotionally abusing me, but also financially abusing me. Because he was going to these massage parlors and with street prostitutes. I remember going to my therapist and saying to her, he’s deflecting, he has cognitive distortion. ## WHAT DOES GOD SAY ABOUT DIVORCE & MARRIAGE? THERAPIST’S PERSPECTIVE **Kayla:** He’s selfish. At this point, she agrees with everything. And I said, when I look this up, it says this is all abuse. She’s like, it is. And I was shocked, like, why didn’t you tell me this? She said, well, I was treating him for these things in the hopes that I can help him get to the place where he can set goals. And work the goals, and be the person you were trying to get him to be. **Anne:** Wow, wow. **Kayla:** Yeah. **Anne:** That is so insane, to be like I knew he was abusive. I had a therapist say the same thing to me. And I was like, it would be better if you said I didn’t know. Than to say I knew and didn’t tell you, because I thought I could change an abuser who is also lying to me. It’s like wild, that was really, really crazy. **Kayla:** It was crazy, because I was doing anything and everything. And it had got to the point where I said to her, when I walk into my house, I feel bad energy. I’m not happy at home. Like I feel like running, I feel trapped. Now I’m finding out like there’s a clear reason why I felt that way, because of what was really going on. And like you said, I was seeking safety. And I didn’t even realize I was seeking safety. I didn’t realize how much confusion I was under. I didn’t realize the person who said they would love me and take care of me for life was the one hurting me the most. God says “The prudent see danger and take refuge.” This was advice for marriage and divorce. ## SEEKING CLARITY & SPACE **Anne:** And deceiving you on purpose, and that is so, so painful. When we can finally wrap our heads around it. But it’s so difficult to perceive of that. It’s like mind bending. God says, “He will lead you to all truth.” about divorce and marriage. **Kayla:** Yeah, so I had to decide what to do now. And it took me a minute, my brain was still confused. I was still going back. No, he would never do that. Oh no, he’s a nice guy. Oh, no, he cried at our wedding. So, I just needed him to leave my space, to get clarity. What is really going on? I asked him to leave the home. To give me that space, to do the research. To listen to podcasts, to do my reading to understand who he was and what he had been doing all along. So I found [the Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcast](https://www.btr.org/podcast/). And you talked about betrayal trauma, and basically that’s what I was going through, right? And that’s when I started listening to the Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcasts. It was like an aha moment. Like listening to women tell their stories, and like, oh my goodness, that’s me. Oh my goodness, yeah. I felt that way. It just confirmed everything that I was thinking, feeling, and understanding. Why other people couldn’t see it, right? Because he was Mr. Nice guy. Everyone loved him. He walked on water. And even though I’m telling people what he’s doing, what he did, they couldn’t see that. They couldn’t hear me and how I felt alone. Even with my friends, but listening to BTR, it was like, okay, I’m not alone. I’m not crazy. ## REALIZING THE EXTENT OF ABUSE **Kayla:** There’s a reason why people don’t understand it. It’s all part of the facade. It’s all part of the abuse, the intentional intentional abuse. To keep the two separate, to make sure they think I’m the perfect person, because I will need them to support me at some point. So the help I got by listening to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. And knowing that I wasn’t alone, and everything I was feeling was real. But even with all that, I still said I would stay in this relationship, if I can see that he repented. And I just continued to pray to God, and eventually I got the clarity that he was not going to change. God was telling me what to do about divorce and marriage. This is who he is. That person I was trying to return to who I thought I was marrying, didn’t exist. He’s this person here, I need to admit that this is who he is. And all these years, I’ve just been under emotional, financial, and intimate abuse, and that was hard to swallow. But once I got there. Once I got that peace from God, that this is what’s going on. That’s when I finally am able to say I want a divorce. I think the biggest thing is why it took me 24 years to realize I was being abused, right? As much as I knew something was wrong, as much as I was stressed out. I felt like I was carrying the weight of the family financially. As much as I knew I was carrying that weight, I just thought it was what a wife should do. Stand by her man. ## WHAT GOD SAYS ABOUT DIVORCE & MARRIAGE WHEN EXPERIENCING COVERT ABUSE **Kayla:** I didn’t know about covert, passive aggressive behaviors, and that’s what he was doing. I didn’t realize I had these thousand little cuts, and he was giving me these little Band-Aids to prevent the bleed out. Because everything he did, he did it under the pretense of, it was not my intention to hurt you. I’m so sorry. I love you. It hurts me when you don’t smile. We had a cycle of highs and lows that ironically strengthened the emotional ties I had to him. And I clung to moments of kindness or affection, believing that was an indication of change in his behavior. I think also because of the good guy persona, right? I also wondered what was wrong with me. It appeared I had this good man, who went to work, went to church, and loved me. He just struggled with connection and consistency. But that’s because of the ADD. He wasn’t intending to hurt me. As this loving, supportive wife, it’s my job to support, help him, even if I’m drowning. perception, leadingAlso just doubting myself, like everyone on the outside saw him as this perfect man. He had a reputation, and everyone loved him. That he was kind, charming, funny, and I didn’t see that complete person in my home. I allowed the confusion to trump how I felt by how others viewed him. And it caused me to question my own perception, leading to just more confusion and self-doubt. But I think one of the bigger things was my faith. We were the presidents of the marriage ministry, and we were consistent churchgoers. I wanted to be a good example to God of not getting divorced and staying in my marriage. ## FAITH & PERSONAL GROWTH **Kayla:** And we were conditioned to prioritize forgiveness, patience, and harmony over our own wellbeing, which made it difficult to recognize that abuse. It’s not two people trying to make a relationship work, but when you go to people and they say to you, just pray harder. What’s your part in this? And you constantly keep saying, well, I need to do this because I made a commitment before God. Understanding what God says about divorce and marriage is confusing. All those things makes it hard to see the abuse for what it is. Because no one brings up the word abuse because it’s not physical. And also it’s a lot of little things over time that I didn’t realize. You know, this may sound really crazy. I am closer to God. Than I’ve ever been right now because I realized the difference. I was committed to the church, to the religion, but I needed to build my own relationship with God, hear God for myself. And not hear other people’s interpretation of what he was saying to me. You know, I was listening to the preachers, when they say, divorce is not an option. The Bible doesn’t say divorce is not an option. I needed to get in God’s face and to understand what he was saying to me. And not what other people thought it should be. My mom passed away from Covid in April of 2020, and I was crushed. I fell on my face and I couldn’t get back up for it felt like years. Like losing her left a void. When I fell on my face in my marriage, it was different. I got back up so much faster, but the damage felt so much worse. ## GOD’S PROTECTION & STRENGTH **Kayla:** Why? because I realized through the grief that God is my comforter, that he’s my strength, and that he’s my everything and that I need to rely on him. Not anyone else. And even though I lost friends, I lost my church. I had God to help me through this process, the healing process. So I look at it differently, meaning that I have my own personal relationship with God not depending on other people interpretations. **Anne:** A lot of women describe that time of being faithful, but feeling like God cared about the marriage. Or God cared about your husband, but he didn’t care about me, kind of a feeling. And then, realizing that God loves you and he really cares. He wants you to be safe. It’s such a different place to have that relationship just with God caring about how you feel. Than thinking that God doesn’t care about you unless you check off all these boxes. **Kayla:** 100%, I did go through that feeling , I felt it when I lost my mom. Like, how could you do this God? With this situation, I felt it again, God, what did I do to deserve this? Right? And I had to realize He didn’t want me to feel like that, but on the other side of it, I said, you know what, God gave me two beautiful children from this. God loved me. God protected me while my ex was out there sleeping with prostitutes. He protected me. God gave me the strength to be able to walk away from that marriage and even more. So he allowed me to align with him. God was telling me it was okay divorce and leave my marriage. ## GOD SAYS TO TRUST INTUITION IN DIVORCE & MARRIAGE **Kayla:** And as much as my ex did to me and the pain he caused me, he is in a worse situation than I’m in. I have found peace in God. I know that I’m loved by God. And I know that I’m a better person, even though I went through that. I’m a stronger person now. I’m more determined now. I understand where my strength comes from. I understand where my peace comes from. The intuition that was happening throughout our marriage that I was getting constantly. **Anne:** Mm-hmm. **Kayla:** Not having all the pieces together. I understand it now. I understand that was God talking to me the whole time and I didn’t put all the pieces together. But now moving forward, I learned to trust my intuition more. Because I know that God’s talking to me and telling me my safety is important in divorce and marriage. And I know that God loves me and I know that God is going to give me all that I lost in those years with my ex. Through the pain with my ex and the finances with my ex, that he’s going give all that back to me.I know that everyone that listens to your podcast may not worship God, but I want everyone to trust your intuition. Trust what you’re seeing more so than what you are hearing. I listened to the words and I didn’t really watch the actions. Watch how do you feel, because no matter what their intention is how do you feel, what’s the impact to you? Because you’re important, and if you’re getting the impact, the intention doesn’t even matter. ## RESEARCH & CONFIRMATION **Kayla:** Do the research. It was the research that made things a lot clearer for me when I was in this place of going back and forth. Not my acts, not mine, not mine, and made it clear. And the confirmations would just come. I would read something in the book and then I would see him do it. I was always taught what happens in your home, in your marriage. You don’t talk about, but if you are seeking help and you find someone to help you make sense of things. I would advise you to have that conversation. Because when I finally did she had so many answers for me. She had been through something similar. She understood the abuse, and it was the only place that I really got the clarity of what this abuse looked like, so trust your intuition. **Anne:** I love that through this process, women discover how smart, wise, and how capable they are. And realize that they were resisting the whole time and they were doing what they were supposed to do. You went for help to multiple, multiple places. That’s what someone smart does. And you got the wrong information. And once you got the right information, you were able to make good decisions for yourself fairly quickly, and you would’ve made those decisions earlier if you had the information at that time. But the good news is you did the right thing the entire time. You are so brave and capable and have an amazing life ahead of you, **Kayla:** Sometimes people stay together for their children. ## REFLECTIONS ON CHILDREN & CONVERSATIONS **Kayla:** He was hurting me, it was hurting my children in my home. My daughter was affected, to the point where she has a hard time vocalizing how she feels. She felt something was wrong all along, but didn’t know what it was. She learned to stuff her feelings because of that. Sometimes when we think we are doing a justice by not having certain conversations with our children, we’re doing them an injustice. and I believe that. Me finding out about my ex not only saved me, it saved my daughter and helped her to know that she needed to, learn to use her voice. It saved my son who did not understand the dangers of it. It’s a conversation that I can freely have with other people in my family, which is usually a taboo conversation. The conversation is always, this is what boys do. So it’s very important to have these conversations, I believe, especially when someone in your family has this addiction. To have this conversation with others, children and so on. **Anne:** Yeah. That’s so important. Well, Kayla, thank you so much for sharing your story today. I appreciate your bravery and your willingness to share so that other women could benefit from your experience with what God says about divorce and marriage. **Kayla:** Thank you. I appreciate you for having me. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [The Truth About Clergy Misconduct](https://www.btr.org/clergy-misconduct/) **Published:** November 4, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** When clergy use their position to take advantage of trust, that is clergy misconduct. Learn more. **Content:** It is crucial for women to recognize the signs of clergy misconduct, as those who experience betrayal or emotional abuse often turn to their faith communities for solace and support. Here’s what you need to know. [If you relate to this, you need support. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY.](https://www.btr.org/group/) Dave Gemmel, Associate Director of the NAD Ministerial Association, joins Anne Blythe, M.Ed. to discuss clergy misconduct. Congregants seek spiritual guidance, compassion, and leadership from clergy. When pastors, bishops, and other spiritual leaders use their authority to destroy a congregant’s trust or faith in God through misconduct, that sacred role is diminished, and victims may experience severe trauma, which often includes a crisis of faith. Dave enumerates some of the ways that clergy can violate trust and commit misconduct: - abuse - adult sexual abuse - harassment - rape - sexual assault - sexualized verbal comments or visuals - unwanted touches and advances - use of sexualized materials including pornography - stalking - sexual abuse of youth or those without mental capacity to consent - misuse of the pastoral/ministerial position - Failing to protect a victim of abuse - Can include criminal behaviors that are against the law in some nations, states, and communities. ## UNDERSTANDING HOW CLERGY MISCONDUCT HAPPENS As Dave explains, pastors have spiritual authority, which makes it impossible for an “asymmetrical relationship” between himself and a congregant. Because of the lack of “considered mutual consent,” a sexual relationship with a pastor or bishop is *not* an affair, but abuse. Women who have experienced this form of abuse may blame themselves, but abuse is *never* the victim’s fault. When clergy take advantage of their position of power, congregants may feel disloyal or unworthy if they report misconduct. Furthermore, congregants, especially abused women, may not know they have betrayal trauma. Utilizing women’s intuition helps prevent clergy misconduct. Because women have adept intuitive abilities to decipher safe or unsafe individuals, Dave suggests all religious organizations implement a 50% policy. This means that in search committees, boards, and other leadership committees that determine who is leading a congregation, women make up at least half of the group. When women discover betrayal and identify abuse in their relationships, they often seek support from clergy. Dave recommends that women and couples do not seek therapeutic counseling from clergy. Instead, women suffering from the effects of betrayal and abuse can utilize professionals who are trained in trauma and abuse. Trained coaches lead the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. If you are seeking validation, empowerment, knowledge, and support, join the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group](https://www.btr.org/group/) today and find the community you deserve. ## TRANSCRIPT: THE TRUTH ABOUT CLERGY MISCONDUCT **Anne:** Today, I’m with Dave Gemmel. He’s an associate director of the NAD ministerial association. He received his doctorate of ministry with an emphasis on multicultural leadership from Fuller Theological Seminary in 1992. He began pastoring in the San Francisco bay area in 1978. Welcome Dave. **Pastor Dave:** Thank you very much, Anne. It is a delight to be with you, and I love your mission. Betrayal Trauma Recovery aims to protect women from emotional abuse, psychological abuse, and coercion. We are on the same page. **Anne:** Let’s just dive right in to talking about clergy misconduct. Many think it is only preying upon minors. Could you please define it? **Pastor Dave:** Yeah, that’s a mouthful, isn’t it? Clergy misconduct, typically, we think of all the stories in the news, stories of the Catholic Church with pedophilia, abusing little boys in the church, and so that’s what comes to mind when we think of clergy misconduct, but the scope is actually a lot bigger than that. If I could just give a little preface here before we jump into it. Clergy, many, if not most, have advanced education and have been carefully screened before endorsement by their congregations. Most are highly trained, behave with great integrity and professionalism. Having said all that, there is a segment of volunteers and professional clergy who violate sacred trust, and in doing so damage the reputation of all clergy. [That’s the segment that we’re going to zoom in on today. So what is clergy misconduct? It’s a betrayal of sacred trust, as I mentioned. And it can be on a continuum of abuse or gender directed behaviors by either a lay or clergy person with a ministerial relationship, whether they’re paid or unpaid.](https://www.btr.org/signs-of-spiritual-abuse/ "That's the segment that we're going to zoom in on today. So what is clergy misconduct? It's a betrayal of sacred trust, as I mentioned. And it can be on a continuum of abuse or gender directed behaviors by either a lay or clergy person with a ministerial relationship, whether they're paid or unpaid.") ## THE SCOPE OF CLERGY MISCONDUCT **Pastor Dave:** Here are some of the things it can include. Abuse, adult sexual abuse, harassment, rape, sexual assault, sexualized verbal comments or visuals and unwelcome touch and advances. The use of inappropriate materials. Including pornography, stalking, sexual abuse of youth, or those without capacity or consent. Also misuse of the pastoral ministerial position, and sometimes criminal behaviors that are against the law in some nations, states, and communities. So that’s an official definition of misconduct by clergy. That’s in the Book of Discipline of the United Methodist Church, which is one of the best out there. **Anne:** So in your definition, you said gender directed behaviors. Are you talking about misogyny? **Pastor Dave:** Yeah, that absolutely is misogyny. And that is proclaiming that women are not as valuable as men. And men have the right to dictate women’s behavior. **Anne:** Let’s talk about your contention that pastors can’t have affairs with church members. And why when people say, oh, he had an affair with a member of his congregation, that’s not a thing. **Pastor Dave:** [Sometimes when a spiritual leader had an inappropriate relationship with a member of the congregation, and we write it off as an affair, I don’t believe it’s an affair. Here’s why, the word affair implies mutual consent between two adults. But there’s an asymmetrical role between pastor and congregant. In other words, the pastor has spiritual authority, which does not put them on the same playing field. That’s why it’s asymmetrical.](https://www.btr.org/spiritual-abuse-symptoms/ "Sometimes when a spiritual leader had an inappropriate relationship with a member of the congregation, and we write it off as an affair, I don't believe it's an affair. Here's why, the word affair implies mutual consent between two adults. But there's an asymmetrical role between pastor and congregant. In other words, the pastor has spiritual authority, which does not put them on the same playing field. That's why it's asymmetrical.") So any intimate relationship between a pastor and a congregant, I believe, is clergy misconduct. and cannot be considered mutual consent. Even if it’s not physical coercion, the clergy is the one in a position of spiritual and emotional power and must be held responsible for the abuse of power. ## THERAPISTS & CLERGY: POSITIONS OF POWER **Pastor Dave:** So, any relationship between a spiritual leader and a member is not having an affair. It is clergy misconduct. **Anne:** Thank you for making that so clear. It’s the same type of thing, where can you have an affair with your therapist? And the answer is also no, because he’s in a position of power. His role is to treat you for a mental illness. I think that that would fall into the same category in terms of therapy or other professionals. **Pastor Dave:** Absolutely, and a therapist should lose their license and be barred from practicing. It’s on a continuum, and the reality is there are some predators who’ve managed to become clergy. The biggest study was done, it’s from the Journal of Scientific Study of Religion, titled *Prevalence of Clergy Advances Toward Adults in Their Congregations*. It was a twofold study. Victims of clergy misconduct were studied from a wide range of religions. ![What is Clergy Misconduct](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-Is-Clergy-Misconduct.webp "What is Clergy Misconduct")They were asked to tell their stories of abuse. And in almost all these cases, the clergy offenders in a series of small acts broke down the natural defenses. And took advantage of a position of spiritual power to eventually make the relationship inappropriate. But what do we call that? That’s a predator. And somehow there are a few of these predators that have managed to get in among the ranks of spiritual leaders. It’s so dangerous, and here’s why, because the victims, the families, and the congregation did not seem to notice it. Or they refuse to confront the clergy. So there’s this special fog in a congregation that people aren’t looking for that, and so they don’t see it. And it makes a nice cloaking place for these predators in the ministry. ## PREDATORS IN RELIGIOUS AUTHORITY **Anne:** [Would you say this also applies to people in some type of religious authority, even if it’s just volunteer, when they’re not their congregants? So, for example, a neighbor who thinks, oh, this man is amazing because he’s a pastor. He might not be her pastor, but some religious title. In my church, we would call it a priesthood calling.](https://www.btr.org/is-my-husband-grooming-me/ "Would you say this also applies to people in some type of religious authority, even if it's just volunteer, when they're not their congregants? So, for example, a neighbor who thinks, oh, this man is amazing because he's a pastor. He might not be her pastor, but some religious title. In my church, we would call it a priesthood calling.") So even if they don’t belong to their same congregation, do you find that these types of predators use their titles for grooming others, not just people in their congregation? **Pastor Dave:** You know, predators use whatever tools they can and if they can use a spiritual position they’ll do whatever they can to achieve their goal. **Anne:** I think it’s an automatic way to gain people’s trust. So what steps can churches take in the prevention of clergy misconduct? **Pastor Dave:** A few things. First of all, make sure that at least 50% of your search committee, policy committees, or boards, or however your church or synagogue is set up, 50% need to be women. And here’s why. I believe God created man and woman, and they complete humanity. If you just have one gender, you only get half of the picture. And so if there are only men on these committees, you’re half blind! Many times women can pick up on things that men were clueless to. So it’s imperative that there is a 50% at least on all these committees. Does that sound wild to you? That’s my goal. **Anne:** I think it sounds amazing. In my particular faith, that is not even an option right now. ## GENDER BALANCE ON CHURCH COMMITTEES **Anne:** I’m like, oh, that would be a miracle if a woman complained and said, Hey, this was creepy. So many men would just be like, Oh, he’s just a nice guy. Don’t worry about it. You’re overreacting. And so, having women make up 50% would make a huge difference, because men seem to dismiss women’s statements about factual things or their intuition that something isn’t quite right. **Pastor Dave:** Because most of us men have not experienced unwanted advances. To us, it’s just completely off our radar. It’s something we can’t relate to. And many women have. So immediately they pick up on it. That’s why we need women in these decision-making positions. **Anne:** I love that, I’m going to pray for that in my own faith. **Pastor Dave:** When a congregation or group selects a spiritual leader, you gotta check references. You know, we do that in business, how much more important it is in spiritual life. Now, when I say check references, that’s not just checking the resume and making the cursory calls on the resume. ![Why Do "Churchy" Abusers Use Scripture As A Weapon?](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ixVDYZDSVfc/maxresdefault.jpg) But it’s calling previous congregations and talking to people in previous congregations, others who have worked with them and dig and dig and dig. And if this person is a predator, things will pop up. It may not be obvious, but three or four phone calls and following some threads, it may be possible to uncover any clergy misconduct. **Anne:** Let’s talk about how the position of clergy can be problematic for someone with an exploitative character. **Pastor Dave:** This is the heart of our conversation right now. ## SAFE PRACTICES FOR CONGREGANTS **Pastor Dave:** This may sound radical, but let me say, don’t go to your pastor or bishop for counseling. That’s a no no. It’s dangerous to go to pastors or spiritual leaders for counseling. And here’s why. Formal training of pastors, and particularly lay leaders, does not equip them to engage in counseling. Counseling is full of supervised counseling that takes thousands of hours before you become certified. It takes certification by state and governing bodies. **Anne:** So many victims go to clergy for spiritual counseling. What’s the difference between spiritual counseling and the counseling you’re talking about. **Pastor Dave:** Yeah, that’s a good question. Spiritual counseling, I don’t think that’s appropriate. I think it’s much better in a support group to develop those spiritual skills and insights. As far as one-on-one counseling, I think that’s out of the question, whether spiritual or otherwise. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) **Anne:** One thing I suggest is if you’re going into clergy to report your husband’s abuse, inappropriate content use or coercion. Or any type of abuse, emotional or psychological abuse. Always take another woman with you who understands abuse. From our experience, you are at the greatest risk of him giving you bad advice. Or saying things like, well, just have more intercourse with him, or how many times do you have it? We get the craziest things clergy has said to victims of abuse. Are you making dinner? Are you praying? Stuff like that. **Pastor Dave:** That’s a great suggestion, and that leads me to don’t meet with a pastor by yourself. **Anne:** We’re on the same page, yay! ## THE ROLE OF CLERGY IN COUNSELING **Pastor Dave:** We are. This is not rocket science here. This is just a simple practical device that comes out of years and years of bad practice and seeing examples of clergy misconduct. So we need to turn it around and have a good practice to ensure there is no clergy misconduct. So here’s some suggestions. Don’t meet with the pastor by yourself. If you do, find places to meet people where others can observed you. Alright, so I don’t know if the pastor has an office. If so, the office door should be open, there should be someone within eyesight of the office. I would suggest that if there’s no office, meet at a public place. Coffee shop, ice cream shop, if we’re in Salt Lake City. Most of all, choose a place where you feel safe. And if you want to bring a friend with you, that will increase safety awareness. **Anne:** Let’s talk about that for a minute. So, many women will go to clergy to be absolved of their own sins. They’re embarrassed, they don’t want anyone else to know. What would you tell women in this scenario who are ashamed of their own behavior? They want to repent. And they’re thinking, I don’t wanna tell my mom, so my mom can’t come in with me to speak to my bishop or pastor, or perhaps some scenario like that. What advice would you give for women in that situation? **Pastor Dave:** Yeah, well, we’ll get into a theological discussion right now, because I’m not into that at all. As a pastor, I think that’s between them and the Lord. ## PASTORS & CONGREGANTS, POWER DYNAMICS **Pastor Dave:** If they want a support group, a group is a great place to do it. As a spiritual leader, I don’t want to look out at my congregation and know specifically what their sins are. I mean, that’s crazy. **Anne:** That’s interesting. So that would be a theological difference, obviously, between yours and my faith. Because in my faith, you’re expected to confess serious sins, and that’s part of the repentance process. You also would get that in like the Catholic faith, confession. And there’s several other faiths who believe in that spiritual practice of confession. **Pastor Dave:** Absolutely, again, this is theological. I don’t believe as a member of the clergy that I have any absolving power over sin. That’s something that is between God and the person. So that’s not a power that I believe I’ve been bequeathed with. But yeah, we could get into a theological discussion. **Anne:** Yeah, I’m grateful for your insight. So thank you for sharing that. I’ve actually never considered that’s not clergy’s role before until right this second, talking to you. If you have anything else you want to add, I’m happy to hear it. **Pastor Dave:** Yeah, well, we can have a Bible study sometime, take a look at it. That would be fun. **Anne:** Yeah, that’s awesome. You’re opening my mind. Thank you, for the purposes of this podcast, let’s continue talking about the guidelines that can keep congregants safe. ## OTHER THINGS TO PREVENT CLERGY MISCONDUCT **Pastor Dave:** A couple other things to prevent clergy misconduct, keep messaging professional. So whatever the messaging is, whether it’s a phone call, a text or an email. Look at that text, that messaging, make sure it is professional. That it doesn’t, well, you used the word creepy. And that there’s nothing in there that says this relationship is or could be something more than what it is already, a professional relationship. And if it goes beyond that, the bell should be going off and say, Hey, there’s a problem here. So here are some things to do to prevent clergy misconduct from happening. If it’s email, reply back and CC some people, so they can see what’s going on. If it’s text messaging, increase it to a group message with some trusted people. Phone calls, make sure you have someone in the room with you when you’re having that phone call, put it on speakerphone if you have to. So all these things will provide safety barriers from someone on the other end who may be, and you don’t know for sure, may be a predator. **Anne:** I’m so grateful that you’re talking about this in such a candid way. Thank you so much. So for the purposes of this podcast, since my listeners are victims of emotional and psychological abuse and coercion from their husbands. Who often go into clergy. And in my particular faith, the clergy is volunteer. None of them are highly trained, but I have heard stories from all faiths, that often clergy doesn’t understand abuse and gives victims of abuse harmful counsel. ## GENERAL CLERGY MISCONDUCT **Pastor Dave:** That may not be considered clergy misconduct, but it certainly is unprofessional and does not fit with the sacred trust of ministry. I would call it pastoral misconduct or clergy misconduct in general. **Anne:** Yeah. So let’s talk about this. My podcast is interfaith. So I speak with women who are Catholic Baptist, Jewish, every denomination of every type of faith. Women report that these interactions with clergy are traumatizing. When they talk about their husband’s abuse. They receive responses like you need more intercourse, or you need to be a Biblical woman and submit. So specifically to my listeners, when they’re not in the scenario of experiencing clergy misconduct. Meaning there’s no intimate relationship with clergy, but they are experiencing clergy misconduct in general. Because they get misinformation when they go for help. **Pastor Dave:** I’m going to give just a really easy answer. Don’t go to your pastor for marital counseling. Honestly, I mean, I have my doctorate, and I do not consider I have enough education to do marriage counseling. And if I begin, I am outside my knowledge base, and I am bound to give some stupid advice. So, I’d rather not do that. And for your listeners, I would rather they don’t get stupid advice either. If they’re going to someone who knows less than they do, I mean, what’s the point? That’s a waste of time. Go to someone who actually has competency in that area. **Anne:** Women also report going to family or marriage counseling and having it go off the rails. And not keep them safe. So this isn’t just a clergy issue. ## UNDERSTANDING EMOTIONAL & PSYCHOLOGICAL ABUSE **Anne:** This is a serious societal issue about people not understanding emotional and psychological abuse, how to spot it, and how to help victims get to safety. Similarly, my advice to our listeners is don’t go to a marriage and family therapist because they are bound by their licensing to see it as an equal problem. With an abuse situation, you really need a professional who genuinely understands emotional and psychological abuse and coercion. Because it’s not just a communication issue where you’re going to improve your communication, and things will get better. If you are wondering if you’re emotionally abused, take our[ free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). **Pastor Dave:** And I would advise those in a position of spiritual power to work with groups such as yours that really have good skills in this area. **Anne:** Yeah, that’s fantastic. So that’s what we specialize in. Emotional and psychological abuse and coercion, especially when it’s difficult for people to see it. Even victims themselves, when they’re not educated about it. It’s very difficult for them to even understand what’s going on. When we educate women about it, they’re like, Oh, now this is clear. So let’s go back to clergy misconduct. If there’s anyone listening who has experienced this or is experiencing it currently. I’m sure there are many listeners whose husbands are pastors or clergy. Who know their husband had misconduct with one of the congregation members. This is the wife of the pastor, who is aware of her husband’s misconduct. So I would say it’s more likely that someone is listening in this scenario. However, I’m sure there are also women who have experienced intimate misconduct themselves. ## ADVICE FOR VICTIMS OF CLERGY MISCONDUCT **Pastor Dave:** And that number is not small. Referring to that previous study, over three percent of women in any congregation have experienced clergy misconduct. So it’s not a small group of people. And I’m imagining that maybe one of your listeners has experienced it, and they’ve listened to it. And they say, yeah, that’s me. What do I do about it? I think the first thing you need to know is it’s not your fault. It’s a predator’s fault, not yours. You are a victim. You are a victim of clergy misconduct. So don’t feel guilty about it. And if you’re ready, and you have support, speak up. And then find people that can walk on that healing journey with you. **Anne:** And what would you say to the many wives who know about their husband’s misconduct and who have not been removed from their positions? ## SUPPORT FOR WIVES **Anne:** In fact, we have over 60,000 women in our community, and offer [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/). We hear stories of this frequently where their husband uses inappropriate material, for example, or he’s had an affair, not necessarily with a member of the congregation, but with somebody. And he has shown he doesn’t have intimate integrity or integrity at all because he’s lied about it. What would you say to wives in that scenario? **Pastor Dave:** If the evidence is clear, and you’re willing to take the risk, take that evidence to the person that’s overseeing your husband, and make clear your husband should not be holding that office. **Anne:** Yeah, we’ve had lots of women who have done that and then they’ve just been dismissed. So that’s the thing that’s really difficult for women as they sometimes try and try and then it just gets exhausting. **Pastor Dave:** It’s tough. You have to have a support team with you. To do it all on your own, and you’re being gaslighted just makes it more and more difficult. So you need that strength of a community behind you. Because every step you take, it gets ratcheted up on the other side. So you have to be strong. And to be strong, you’ve got to have people behind you. You’ve got to have a group of people that can listen to you, believe you, support you, and encourage you. **Anne:** Well, I appreciate everything you’ve shared today about clergy misconduct, thank you so much for your time. **Pastor Dave:** Thank you very much, Anne. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [When Healing Emotional Wounds in Relationships: Get Safe Advice](https://www.btr.org/healing-emotional-wounds-in-relationships/) **Published:** November 11, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Here's how to move toward emotional safety with or without divorce. **Content:** Healing emotional wounds in relationships, especially from a toxic marriage, is vital to our emotional health. Here’s how to find the right support. To discover if you’re experiencing any one of the 19 types of abuse that cause emotional wounds, take our [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). #### Step 1: RECOGNIZING WHAT CAUSED THE EMOTIONAL WOUNDS Understanding emotional abuse is the first step to getting help and staying safe. Before you go to any helping professional, it’s important to be educated about emotional and psychological abuse. [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop helps women identify exactly what is causing the emotional wounds. ](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) Once you know what the true cause is, you’ll be ready to find the right support to heal. #### Step 2: GETTING SAFE HELP FOR HEALING EMOTIONAL WOUNDS IN RELATIONSHIPS If you discover the emotional wounds are from your husband’s abuse, the next step is to get the support to heal. If you need live support, attend a [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session today.](https://www.btr.org/group/) Here are some examples of when support isn’t emotionally safe enough to help heal your wounds: - Has the professional or therapist given equal weight to his abusive narrative, his lies and the truth? - Does the support person think that you played a role in causing the abuse? If you haven’t found the right support yet, know that we’re here for you. Listen to The [Free Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast](https://www.btr.org/podcast/) to hear women’s share what resources helped them define what really caused the emotional wounds. ## TRANSCRIPT: HEALING EMOTIONAL WOUNDS AFTER TRAUMA **Anne:** Today I’ll interview a woman who was victimized by a helping professional. We’re gonna call her Esther. Before we get to her story, I’m going to talk about healing emotional wounds from relationships. Step one is recognizing what caused the emotional wounds. If you don’t know what caused it, it’s hard to get the right kind of help. Healing emotional wounds takes the right kind of help. If you go to a professional or therapist, and they give equal value to his abusive narrative or his lies and the truth. That’s not safe. You can’t heal the emotional wounds if they’re still occurring, especially if they’re coming from a helping professional. As Esther shares her story, you’ll see that she correctly identifies what happened to her in her marriage. Then she’s gonna talk about the emotional wounds she received when she went for help. And it wasn’t a safe situation, welcome Esther. I’m so honored that you’d share your story. Will you go ahead and start? **Esther:** Hi, thank you for having me. So I was married and had a lot of kids. I was a homeschooling mom. And I went online looking for answers. I took some quiz. I think it was a domestic violence recovery organization in the UK. At the end, it said you are being abused, you are being mistreated. And it was the first time those words or thoughts came into my mind. I just never saw that. I always thought, oh, he has ADHD, or depression, or it’s his culture. ## SEEKING HELP & INITIAL STEPS **Esther:** And the fact that I might be intentionally harmed, controlled, and manipulated was a shocking, painful realization. So, I went straight away into the helper mode, okay, what can we do, what can he do, what can I do? And, I went into, support for myself, for DV victims, through my county. I put my kids in counseling, and I asked my [husband to please go to abuser counseling](https://www.btr.org/your-abusive-husbands-therapist/). Because I didn’t understand what a deep entrenched issue it was. I thought it was like a mistake or something that could be unlearned. I wasn’t focused on the deep emotional wounds that were occurring at the same time. And I was thinking, well, he’ll just go to a class and realize that this is bad, and we’ll just move on. I just saw it as, okay, let’s fix this. I said, you have to go to a abuser intervention program, you have to do this, or my thought was separation. Divorce wasn’t part of my view as a Christian at that time. I’ve since changed my view. I don’t believe God wants abuse. But at that time, I gave him a list of things to do. They were supposedly proofs that he was changing. It included having a mentor, [going to therapy, and going to an abuser program.](https://www.btr.org/abusive-therapist/ "going to therapy, and going to an abuser program.") He went to two abuser groups. He would apologize a lot. And I’d get all these words and flowers. And he just lied to the therapists. He’d manipulate therapists. And that was disturbing, because he used them against me. **Anne:** Were you aware of any pornography use, cheating, infidelity, or anything like that? **Esther:** His views of women were warped, very misogynist, using me as an object. ## UNDERSTANDING THE DEPTH OF ABUSE **Esther:** I used to put religious labels on this and make it a holy thing. But as I started to get more and more free, I recognized that his view of women was a big part of the mistreatment of me, the emotional wounds were so deep. And unfortunately, that would cause harm to my daughters. That showed me that this was a lot bigger than me. I remember looking at his computer I was like, who is this man really? There were secrets in his life, because he’d hide money from me in a weird way. I homeschooled four kids, and one of them has an autism diagnosis. So that took all my time. And I didn’t really have time to notice or pay attention to myself. I was all about the kids. I was all about trying to teach my son well. When I recognized, I’m an abused woman, I pivoted in my mind, like, how did this happen? How did I end up here? I had a million questions, so I just started reading every book I could. What is abuse? How do I recognize it? What about me made me vulnerable? How do I know he’s changing? So I was just a sponge reading every book I could find. God opened my eyes and I started to see he could stop. It was possible, but he wasn’t. And because of that, we did get divorced, and I started running for personal healing. **Anne:** Were you partially running toward healing because you were still experiencing abuse? **Esther:** Oh, that’s an excellent question. I was experiencing post separation abuse. I was still trying to find help. ## HEALING EMOTIONAL WOUNDS WHILE EXPERIENCING POST-SEPARATION CHAOS **Esther:** I went to a parent coordinator, told him everything. It was very traumatizing, because he’d asked me these personal questions. Well, when you did this, how did you feel? When you did this, how did you feel? And I would just be bringing up all these emotionally abusive episodes that resulted in deep emotional wounds, crying, and my ex had no empathy whatsoever. And hoping for help. He just sat there like a stone while I’m crying. And when my ex went to the bathroom, the parent counselor said, I know what’s going on with you. I’ve seen it before. I just want you to know, even if you win, he will make you lose. And I’m like, what? He’s like, yeah, so if you get what you believe is owed to you in court, this guy’s going to come behind you in a covert way and take revenge. And that ended up being true. When I was winning in court, he went after one of my kids in a vicious way. And so I’m trying to get him in home therapy and advocate for him at his school. Meanwhile, he’s just telling lies about me. And I started to wonder, like is he having a psychotic break? Is he actually perceiving reality wrongly? Or is he just lying? Why would he do that? Yeah, so the post divorce time was awful. **Anne:** I’m guessing people are treating you as if you just need to heal. Rather than recognizing that you can’t even begin to heal because you’re still being abused post divorce. So when women talk to other people and they say well, didn’t you divorce him a year ago? Don’t you just need to move on? ## SEEKING VALIDATION & UNDERSTANDING **Anne:** They don’t realize that the abuse you’re experiencing is still real time, like it happened today or yesterday. It’s not something that’s in the past. So many women talk about their PTSD, and I’m like, it’s just TSD. Because it’s not post, it’s current. It’s happening now. You can’t heal from these deep emotional wounds while still experiencing harm. **Esther:** That’s right. A big question on my heart was, why did he do this? I loved him, I had children with him, why would he treat me this way? And part of that understanding was to help me navigate that extremely difficult post separation period. I read this book by a famous author. Like, oh wow, look at this, look at that. And I remember being very impressed and motivated by the book. Certain ideas in the book were very empowering for me. Because of that, I would quote it to my friends. A lot of us didn’t really have a correct understanding of intentional control or coercive control. When a person intentionally controls another person. By controlling their emotions, information, and I guess the main idea in the book is that it is intentional. So the book felt empowering. Like, this man is choosing to do this to avoid chores and helping with the children. He’s doing it to avoid being equal to me. He’s doing it to gain an advantage over me. And it seemed to answer certain questions I had in my heart, because my ex was covert. In certain ways, I mean, I see it pretty clearly now, but it was so covert. ## ATTENDING THE RETREAT TO HEAL FROM RELATIONSHIP WOUNDS **Esther:** I had to constantly return to he’s not wanting an equal relationship, he’s wanting power over me. He’s willing to wound me to have that. And I had to continue to go back to it to survive emotionally and help my kids survive. What happened next is, I went to the famous author’s website and found that he offered a retreat for women, leaving abusive relationships. So that they were post abuse. And I thought it might be a good thing for me. So I got someone to watch for my children. Got time off work. I went to the retreat. It was held in a beautiful location. It was green. I went, with a very open heart. Ready to be vulnerable. I was looking forward to a place where I could be very open about what I’d gone through in the marriage. I think many moms who are survivors who have to go to work. We are not really letting people know what we’ve gone through. I definitely didn’t talk about it that much. I was just functioning and trying to get things done and paying the bills. So, I was looking forward to being in a place where I could talk about what had happened and not be judged. And receive healing, wisdom, and validation from other women. I remember when he first walked in the door, he looked at me, he made eye contact, and I noticed him noticing me. And it was like longer than just a normal, hi, how are you? I noticed that I was sort of on his radar. ## HEALING EMOTIONAL WOUNDS & REGAINING MY PERSONALITY Esther: And I was flattered, I was excited. So I’d only been divorced one year, but I was pregnant. Right after my divorce, it wasn’t wise, but I love my baby. He’s amazing. I’m so thankful for him. So I’m going into this retreat to heal from these emotional wounds. They had sent an email. If you have a gift for the group, why won’t you come and perform for us and share it? And I was a certified Zumba instructor. So, I was like, I’m sure I can lead Zumba for you guys. And I also offered to help with karaoke, because I used to sing at different churches. And I did that. Like, yay, let’s do this. **Anne:** The idea of being seen, your talent’s being seen and appreciated. We don’t feel seen or appreciated in our abusive marriages, so of course you’d be excited about that. **Esther:** You’re right, yeah, that’s so true. I lost my identity in that marriage. The things that I loved, I sacrificed everything, and when I was divorced, I started regaining my personality. I started remembering, oh, I love to sing. I can sing. Oh, I like to go to the gym. I can go to the gym. My ex didn’t like me going to the gym. So, it was always a stressful thing to go to the gym. I’d be stressed to leave the kids at home. He’d make negative or mocking comments about the gym. So, it was one of the many things I let go of when I was married. Just these aspects of my personality. I’d start to gain them back one at a time. It was amazing. And going to that retreat was supposed to be part of that journey. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## UNCOMFORTABLE MOMENTS AT THE RETREAT **Esther:** Unfortunately, it took a negative turn. Not immediately, but during that retreat, the famous author was giving me attention. I didn’t think anything unusual of it, because I’m friendly, extroverted, like talking to people, and I like to be an A student. Sort of like, here’s the teacher, let me heal emotional wounds. So I was all in, and he’s like, Oh, do you guys have any questions? And one of my questions was, what advice would you give for a future writer? And he said, well, let’s meet in the morning and talk about it. So he had a writer’s group in the morning, based on that question I had. And he was talking to me a lot. I don’t know if my radar was not recognizing that was unusual, but I liked it. You know, I’m getting all this attention from this famous guy. There was one strange part where we were standing in this circle facing one direction, giving the person in front of us a back rub. Then you turn to the other side and give the other person a back rub. I remember thinking that was strange, because so many of us were survivors of intimate abuse. And we definitely didn’t want people touching us. I remember thinking, ew, I don’t know if I like this, this feels weird. It wasn’t that cool. ## FIRST DATE & RED FLAGS **Esther:** Following the retreat, the famous guy and I were emailing. And then we ended up talking on the phone, we ended up chatting it up a bit. It starts to feel kind of datey. I start to gain the vibe he’s interested. And then he decides to visit me in my town, and asked me if he could stay at my house with my kids. Which I thought was super strange. I’m like, I’ve got kids here. No way. So I told him there are many hotels near my house, so he stayed at a hotel. After these weeks of flirty emailing and phone calls, we meet early in the morning on our first date. And we’re together the whole day. We’re holding hands. We’re kissing. It’s very romantic. He seemed great. However, as the day went on, when we were talking in different places. I remember noticing that something was off in how he was acting. I noticed there were two voices, there was like the professional guy, that was like, oh, I’m so sweet and I’m so empathetic to you. Then there was another voice, and when that second voice came out, I started getting fear in my stomach. It was like an internal alarm. Just feminine intuition, he didn’t do anything violent, part of my mind is panicking. Like, who am I here with? Then the other part was like, maybe I’m wrong. Maybe I’m imagining it. Later on, we were in his hotel room. We started to get more physical. He went faster than I wanted. He did more than I wanted him to do, and I asked him to stop. ## HEALING EMOTIONAL WOUNDS IN RELATIONSHIPS: WHEN THE HELP MAKES IT WORSE **Esther:** He did stop. I remember him lying on his back, looking up at the wall with this, like, cold face. Kind of pissed off, like angry. I didn’t know he’d be furious about that. When I look back, I’m like, oh, he probably just came for sex and was probably irritated when it didn’t happen. The next morning, I made him, breakfast. He was just looking at me like, what is your problem? And, I don’t know if the word is scared, but I cannot wait till he’s gone. And then he finally left. He said goodbye, smiled this like a fake smile at me, and then he turned and he was cold as ice and irritated. I’ll never forget the way his face changed. It was shocking. I felt this pain throughout my body. Like, in my brain. My thoughts were not connecting. I was ruminating about the situation. It just kept going around and around in circles like how the heck could that man be this? When he’s writing these books. Who is he even? He’s acting this way with someone healing from emotional wounds in relationships? **Anne:** All women resist abuse, and that’s something people don’t understand. It gets turned into victim blaming, rather than realizing that any woman who’s been victimized will want to piece her dignity back together. Sometimes confronting an abuser is a way that we feel like we might piece our dignity back together. Can you talk about that? **Esther:** I didn’t immediately cut off communication, because I didn’t want it to be true. It’s like, no, this could not be possible. I guess I was in disbelief. ## WHEN PROFESSIONALS PREY ON WOMEN **Esther:** I didn’t want people to read a book by this guy and then go to his retreats, and he’s a jerk. It was horrible. I was like, can that actually be true? You know, like I wanted my world to make more sense. I wanted the guy from the book back. **Anne:** Because you felt so validated in his books. Does it invalidate all these things you learned? And maybe it’s your fault, like your husband said? So you experience additional abuse while healing emotional wounds from your past relationship. **Esther:** Yes, that’s exactly it. Does it make his books wrong? For a long time, I wanted it to be my fault. Because that was better than knowing that this guy with this great book everyone loves is fake. I’d rather, something was wrong with me. You know, I didn’t want to discover what I discovered. Even when it was over with him and me, and I processed it. I was like, that was weird that he dated me after I was at the retreat when he’s basically a counselor. You know, not someone who charges for a retreat. He knows what power is. He understands power differentials. And he knows, he knows that’s not right. It feels so yucky. Like, why do I have so much trauma from this? Like, why is my brain getting numb? It doesn’t feel like, oh, I went on a date and it was a bad date. It feels more violating. I decided to research and try to find out if there were more victims, I met some of those people, and I found out that I was not alone. If you really want to test out, if a man is abusive, tell him no. ## FUTILITY OF CONFRONTING THE ABUSER **Anne:** Yeah, you told him no and you saw what happened, and then you had it confirmed by these other victims who had experiences with him. I’m so glad you got that validation from those other women. I want to pause right here and talk about one section of that book at the end. It says something like, to change these guys, everyone would need to confront them. You know, the therapist, their church leader, the police, like everybody in the community. We’re all desperate for our abuser to change, when healing from emotional wounds in relationships. So that we can keep our family together. I mean, I’ve interviewed over 300 abuse victims, long form interviews like this one, hour long interviews. So what victims take from his writing is the impression that even if it’s a long shot. I’m going to see if I can get the therapist, clergy, police, and his mother and everyone to confront him. And then maybe he’ll see the light, maybe that will save my marriage. I tried that, I think so many women have, and it didn’t work. The court didn’t hold my ex accountable. In fact, when I tried to reduce his custody for abusing my kids, the court gave him more custody. And I sought God’s help to discover what would free me from my ex’s abuse, and through that, I discovered these great strategies. that I put in the Living Free Workshop. I had to do it like that, because it’s not like anything anybody has ever heard before. And I had to set it up the right way. ## HEALING EMOTIONAL WOUNDS BY USING OUR WORKSHOP STRATEGIES **Anne:** So [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop](https://www.btr.org/clarity/) helps women understand who they are, and then how to strategically deal with them. And helps them get to emotional and psychological safety, when healing from these emotional wounds from marriage. However, that looks for you. And then observe from a safe distance. Because many of us have been manipulated to be detached from our intuition. Through the Living Free Workshop, through everything I do here at BTR. My hope is to give women the confidence to reconnect with their gut, and you did that. On that date with him, your intuition was warning you, and you listened. Even if you didn’t want it to be true, you took at least a mental step back and started observing. That will always lead victims to the truth. **Esther:** That’s so true. Wow, that’s amazing. Yeah, because I confronted him. Can’t you at least admit, you shouldn’t be dating the women you teach about abuse? It did not go well. [My husband was gaslighting](https://www.btr.org/husband-gaslighting/). I left that 30 minute conversation feeling completely confused. I was like, that was not wise. Which is interesting that he would actually give advice to confront people. **Anne:** Because they actually like confrontation. The Living Free strategies came to me over years of all these interviews, but also my own experience. And one of the things I saw over and over again was in custody cases. Where the women had a lot of proof of their abuse. Even then, the abusers walk into court, super excited and happy. Court really stresses victims out. I mean, we think it’s miserable and super stressful. This type of abuser likes the confrontation that the court affords them. ## ABUSERS LIKE TO FIGHT **Esther:** That’s true. They like to fight. **Anne:** And so if they can get hold of something, some emotion, something we want from them. It could be an apology, it could be that they stop doing what they’re doing, anything. The only thing they see is a way to manipulate us. That’s it. That’s why observing from a safe distance is safer for victims, rather than trying to get him to do something. Whether that be an abusive husband, ex-husband, therapist or counselor. **Esther:** Absolutely. **Anne:** Well, Esther, thank you so much for sharing your story. I know it’s been so traumatic. I think it’s important to hear these stories, so women know what can happen when they go for help. And how to recognize the right kind of help. Because it’s impossible heal from emotional wounds if we’re still receiving emotional wounds. So thank you so much for sharing your story today. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Is My Husband Addicted to ... ? Here's How to Tell](https://www.btr.org/is-my-husband-addicted/) **Published:** November 18, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** If you're wondering, Is my husband addicted to... Here's how to determine the truth, AND what to do about it. **Content:** When a woman finds out her husband has been lying, one question she usually asks is, “Is my husband addicted to…” Here’s what you really need to know. Before reading on, did you know that the real issue may be emotional abuse? To test this theory, if your husband uses p\*\*\*graphy, take this [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). See if you’re experiencing any of the 19 types of emotional abuse. ## WHEN MY HUSBAND SAYS HE’S ADDICTED … Many times, husbands who lie about affairs or watching inappropriate media claim that they have an addiction and they need your help to heal. The truth is that what’s happening in your marriage may not have anything to do an addiction at all. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we help women see how addiction labels can hide or excuse away emotional and psychological abuse. Here’s how to tell if your husband’s behavior is less about addiction and more about control and manipulation. ## THE TRUTH ABOUT “ADDICTION” IN MARRIAGE Addiction and lying are separate issues. If he’s… - Hiding money - Denying conversations or gaslighting you when you ask questions - Using phrases like “You’re too sensitive” or “You blow things out of proportion” to dismiss your concerns If your husband says he lies because he’s an addict, ask yourself this question—is he taking responsibility for the pain he’s causing? Or does he make excuses, to shift blame and manipulate you into feeling like he’s the victim? These actions aren’t the slips of an addict, they’re tactics abusers use to maintain control.If your husband’s actions hurt your peace and confidence, it’s important to only focus on how they affect you. This shift will change everything. ## ADDICTION & EMOTIONAL ABUSE One common lie many women hear is that an addiction to inappropriate material use is just a private or personal matter. But here’s the reality: - **Exploitation:** The creation of these materials often involves exploitation and abuse of women and underage girls. Watching it creates demand for more harm. - **Coercion In Marriage:** If your husband refuses to be honest about his use of these materials or acting out, he’s denying you the opportunity to make informed decisions about your own safety, which is coercion. - **It Breaks Marital Trust:** Withholding the truth, managing secret habits, or blaming you for his choices destroys intimacy and trust. ## HOW TO PROTECT YOURSELF FROM AN “ADDICTED” HUSBAND If your husband’s actions have harmed you, the best step is to learn how to protect yourself from further harm. Here’s where to start: 1. Learn about what it means when your husband says he’s an addict by listening to [The Free Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast](https://www.btr.org/podcast/). 2. Get the RIGHT support. Check out the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session schedule to connect with other women who know exactly what you’re going through.](https://www.btr.org/group/) 3. Learn safety strategies. Enroll in [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) to determine the truth about your husband’s character and learn strategies to protect yourself. ## WHY YOUR HUSBAND’S ADDICTION IS LIKELY ABUSIVE TO YOU Abusive online content is accepted, encouraged, and normalized in our society. While its effects are denied, minimized, and even justified. When men choose to use exploitative content, they exploit and abuse women – many of whom are underage. Violence against women is common in this type of material. Men literally have a response to the video proof of women and children brutalized and raped. **How could that *not* be abusive?** ## BUT WHAT IF IT’S SO-CALLED “ETHICAL”? Many so-called addicts will rally against the truth that this content is abusive. They claim that “ethical p\*\*\*\*graphy” empowers women. However, this fallacy is both dangerous and offensive. “Ethical” is the ultimate oxymoron. There is no healthy way to view something created through coercive, exploitative tactics. ## VIEWING THIS TYPE OF CONTENT LEADS TO SPOUSE ABUSE When men consume this type of material, they are, by default, abusing their wife because: - They’re engaging in a secret life—manipulation, lies, and withholding the truth are forms of emotional abuse. - If he’s not honest about his use of this content, it’s coercion, because she can’t make an informed decision. - Users of this material often pressure their wife to engage in dangerous, dehumanizing, and painful acts. This is coercion, a form of abuse. - Users often resort to psychologically abusive behaviors, including gaslighting, blame-shifting, and abusive defensiveness. ## WHEN HIS ADDICTION HAS TAUGHT HIM HOW TO ABUSE WOMEN As men consume this type of abuse, they’re being conditioned to coerce and abuse women and underage girls. We understand the depth of horror and pain women experience when betrayed. [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group](https://www.btr.org/group/) offers victims a safe place to process trauma, share hard feelings, and ask questions. Attend a session today. ![Does He Use Love as a Weapon? 3 Things to Look For.](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/wUSQmWdjAdU/maxresdefault.jpg) ## TRANSCRIPT: IS MY HUSBAND ADDICTED TO…? **Anne:** It’s just me today. If you just found out about your husband’s lies. And you’re wondering is my husband addicted to whatever he just lied about? Here’s what you need to know. If you caught your husband lying. And then your husband said, I’m addicted to … And he claims he’s struggling with addiction. The truth might not be about addiction. Often the real issue is emotional and psychological abuse. So here’s what you need to know about addiction in marriage. Addiction might seem like a reasonable explanation for your husband’s lies. But if your husband’s actions hurt your peace and confidence, it’s important to focus only on how they affect you, and this shift will change everything. Because if your husband repeatedly chooses behaviors that hurt you, this is about more than just his “personal struggle.” Lies aren’t addiction. Lies are emotional and psychological abuse. So, if your husband is lying and his excuse is that he’s an addict, ask yourself this question. Is he taking responsibility for the pain he causes? Or does he make excuses, shift blame, or manipulate you to feel sorry for him? Because addiction doesn’t justify lying about his whereabouts. Or that he plays the victim, so you feel sorry for him. He’s actually harming you. It doesn’t justify hiding money, denying conversations, or gaslighting when you ask questions. It doesn’t justify psychological abuse in telling you that you’re too sensitive or blowing something out of proportion, when what he’s done is serious. ## IS MY HUSBAND ADDICTED: TACTICS OF CONTROL **Anne:** These actions aren’t slips from an addict, they’re tactics abusers use to maintain control. You may ask, is my husband addicted? So let’s talk specifically about addiction and why exploitative material is an abuse issue. It’s not so much that I think talking about it as an abuse issue is fun, because everything about abuse is miserable. But educating women about this type of abuse is my absolute favorite thing to do. I have a master’s degree in education. I’m an abuse educator. And because I talk about abuse all day long, I’ve developed a dark sense of humor. So I appreciate your patience. When it comes to abuse, it’s not a “what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger” situation. It’s what doesn’t kill you, really harms you, and limits your ability to function and feel joy for a long time. It’s miserable to learn why it is abusive from experience. And extremely difficult to learn how to protect yourself from this type of abuse. Most people don’t give victims of this type of abuse, the correct information. So that’s my intent today. I don’t want any woman to experience this type of abuse, not know what it is, and not know how to protect yourself. That’s why I’m doing this episode today. So exploitative materials use is a form of abuse. And there are multiple reasons why it’s abuse. I’m going to work from the outside in as we go over these reasons. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## REASON NUMBER ONE: THE REALITY OF EXPLOITATIVE MEDIA **Anne:** So reason number one: it fuels trafficking, and most exploitative media is video evidence of a victim’s coercion or assault. The industry says women are happy being abused. In fact, they’ve “consented” to it. But they are coerced. The money is the coercion. There is no woman wants to be filmed being violently attacked. Because that’s what most of it is today. I’m a feminist. There are some feminists who say this somehow empowers women, and I absolutely disagree. Women have contracted diseases. The toxic “work” environment breaks them emotionally. Anyone who insists that it empowers women is not operating from a trauma-informed perspective. On the type of psychological grooming, emotional manipulation, and verbal manipulation that women encounter in the industry. Is my husband addicted? There’s a general naivety among the mass consumers of exploitative media about how things work. Talking with the amazing people at the national center on exploitation. I’ve learned over the years. Statistics show if you watched 30 minutes of it. You are guaranteed to see someone who is there against their will. So even if somebody thinks they’re watching “ethical or free trade material.” There are a ton of euphemisms out there. That’s not true. Women entrapped in this type of slavery are considered products. Producers use and sell their bodies as products. So if somebody views it, they’re getting pleasure from someone else’s abuse. There’s no healthy way to do that. ## REASON NUMBER TWO: PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH EXPLOITATIVE MATERIAL **Anne:** Is my husband addicted? The second reason why it is an abuse issue is that my husband’s use is abusive to me. Use is directly tied to loss of intimacy, reduced empathy, and addictive behaviors. The effect of it on his brain, emotions, and empathy is a net negative. My husband’s use didn’t, and no man’s use makes him more compassionate, more kind, or more capable of connecting with other people. Especially, not me as his wife. The use of exploitative material is an act outside of marriage. Most men don’t just use. They also lie, deceive, manipulate and gaslight their wives to hide their use. So their wife doesn’t know how much they’re using. It takes time to use it. It takes 15 minutes, a half hour, an hour, two hours. However long it takes them to masturbate. That is how long it takes. So this is time they are taking away from their job, childcare, housework, and reducing their wife’s mental load. I mean, they’re spending time thinking about how can I get privacy to use? They’re not thinking, how can I help my wife? What are the kids doing today? How can I help with carpool? In fact, he thinks it’s my wife’s job to do all the childcare, housework and everything. So if she asks me questions about what I’m doing, or expects anything from me, like how dare she! It’s my right to have time to view these videos of women abused and masturbate. There’s some good research you can find at The National Center on Exploitation about how use escalates over time. ## IS MY HUSBAND ADDICTED: REASON NUMBER THREE: IT DESTROYS RELATIONSHIPS **Anne:** So it takes more intense material for a man to get an erection, and for him to actually masturbate. So over time, he’s having to watch more of it, or watch more hardcore to do it. So what I believe should be between two people as an act of love and connection. For a user is spouting out sperm in front of a computer. There’s no need to pay attention to the other person’s feelings. It’s all take. There’s absolutely no give. Is my husband addicted? And that’s the third reason why it is an abuse issue. It destroys sharing in marriage, and turns it into something that you experience alone. So it destroys the relationship. It’s not just abuse, because the people in the it are abused. And he’s not just abusive to us when he’s using it, because he has no empathy and care for us. He uses all his mental energy to figure out how to lie to us. So he can be all by himself, using it. It’s also abusing the relationship, because it destroys the relationship. So that’s the third reason why it’s an abuse issue. He misuses or abuses the relationship. A marriage relationship is intended as a caring, loving, equally respectful relationship. Where people are relating out of care. But a user doesn’t operate from that perspective. ## TRANSACTIONAL RELATIONSHIPS **Anne:** Is my husband addicted? He operates as if it’s a transactionship. So, for example, he just needs to say the right words to get the result he wants. So if he says, oh, you look so beautiful today. I love you so much. You’re amazing. That makes it much easier for him to follow up with. I’m so grateful that you’re so supportive of my job. I’m so sorry. I have to work late tonight. I’m going to be in the office. I’m going to lock the doors. So the kids don’t bother me, but just know that I care about you and I’m doing all this for our family. And then goes in his office, locks the door and he’s not actually working. He’s just using in there. He’s abusing the relationship. Because he sees it as a series of transactions and uses deceit to make those transactions. I think that using exploitative material is a form of adultery. This is [how infidelity](https://www.btr.org/how-does-infidelity/ "how infidelity") destroys the relationship. The solution to this abuse of the relationship isn’t to say, If we watch it together, then it’s not abusing the relationship because we’re doing it together. No, doing something unhealthy together is not going to make the relationship healthy. ## CHARACTER VS. ADDICTION **Anne:** Is my husband addicted? The[ CSAT therapist](https://www.btr.org/csat-therapist-near-me/ " CSAT therapist") would like to call this addiction rather than abuse. And I disagree, it’s abuse. It should be called abuse. I think if they try to treat it, they should be treating abuse. And the only thing that any addiction recovery professional should say to a victim of this type of abuse is you’re a victim of abuse. Focus on protecting yourself. That’s it. Whether it’s addictive or not. This is a choice your husband is making day in and day out about what he thinks about, about how he spends his time. And if he’s been doing this for years, This is who he has become. The lying, the deception, the manipulation, all of this has become his character. And that’s what people mean when they say he’s abusive. Abuse is a character problem. It’s important to know that abuse is a character problem, because a lot of emotional and psychological abuse will feel good to the victim. That type of manipulation is going to cause us as victims to feel loved. and cared for. Even though it’s manipulation. People may describe this as grooming or hoovering. So if our husband has this type of abusive character, The only reason he chooses to do things that feel good for us is to achieve a goal. And his goal is often to either hide the truth or exploit us somehow. So it’s dangerous, no matter what, it’s dangerous, if he’s manipulating through manipulative kindness, it’s just more obvious if he’s manipulating through threats, verbal abuse, or overt forms of emotional and psychological abuse. and verbal abuse. ## IS MY HUSBAND ADDICTED: THE ROLE OF ADDICTION PROFESSIONALS **Anne:** The addiction, industrial complex does not want to correctly identify this. Is my husband addicted? They won’t say he has an abusive character. They’re going to say it’s an addiction and the addiction is a disease and the logical outcome of thinking that our husband has a disease. is for us as victims to have compassion for our abuser. When the thing we need to do is protect ourselves. It’s not like he’s a cancer patient. And he has no choice. He does have choices. Men who use this material are not helpless. The bigger question is can they think about women as people. Can they accept that women are human and that we are equal to them. They did not create us to use us or to exploit us. But that our feelings matter just as much as theirs. If he wants to have it and we don’t want to have it. Those are equal. Because we are equal. And so all things being equal. He’s an adult. He has choices. If we can put time, effort, and thought into how to have a better marriage. So can he. If we can figure this out, he can figure this out. He knows how to act appropriately, because he is kind in public. He knows how to be kind. And he chooses to be kind as a manipulation tactic. He doesn’t have an integrity disorder. He just doesn’t have integrity. For so long, I was in this addiction recovery space with my ex-husband. I was not seeing him as abusive. I was viewing everything he did through that lens of addiction. ## CLASSIC ABUSIVE BEHAVIORS **Anne:** And that’s exactly why I wrote [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) to help you SEE what is actually happening. The way that I talk about abuse, is very mainstream. If you went to a domestic violence shelter and explained the manipulation, lies, deception, and disrespect that you’re experiencing. Is my husband addicted? Those domestic abuse experts at the domestic violence shelter would confirm that you’re experiencing abuse. I haven’t invented this out of nowhere. These are very typical classic abusive behaviors. It’s just that the addiction industrial complex doesn’t want you to know that. And so they don’t bring that up. And I think the main reason is that they know if it’s abuse, a woman should just focus on protecting herself. If a addiction professional is an abuse expert. They know that he’s only going to treatment as a way to continue manipulating and exploiting his wife. That he doesn’t need treatment, to be honest at any time. He could say, hey, it was a choice and I chose to use because it was way easier than trying to have a relationship. And I just want to ejaculate. All I care about is the orgasm, and it’s way easier with it. It doesn’t expect anything. Instead, in addiction treatment. He’ll come up with all these excuses and reasons. Why he feels compelled. And you end up paying thousands and thousands of dollars for him to string you along and continue to exploit you and manipulate you. Because the addiction treatment industry doesn’t give victims of this type of abuse in any way to protect ourselves. ## INDICATIONS OF CHANGE **Anne:** And they know that if she realizes this, he’ll have no reason to go anymore. And then they’ll lose a client. And then won’t get paid as much. Is my husband addicted? If he hasn’t found the treatment program all by himself, scheduled his own appointments, and done everything without you as a victim mentioning anything to him. Meaning, if you’re the one that found the therapist, if you schedule the appointments, if you’re managing his treatment in any way.That is one of the biggest indications. That he does not intend to change. Because if he had intended to change, he would have done all that on his own. If you’re capable of doing it, he’s capable of doing it. Sex addiction professionals know this. They always require the wife to participate in the addict’s treatment. They don’t tell you that it’s the biggest indication that he’s not going to change. Because if the wife’s not involved, they don’t get paid. So the whole thing is just a big racket. If you’ve been listening at this point, you’re probably thinking, is there no hope for my marriage? And I understand. Because I felt the same way. I don’t know of any woman who hasn’t tried to go to [intensive couple therapy](https://www.btr.org/intensive-couples-therapy-near-me/ "intensive couple therapy") or get their husband addiction therapy. It’s totally okay to be like, I’m going to try addiction therapy or maybe like an abuse cessation program. That’s what I did. And most of the women who come to BTR have tried that. In fact, you maybe have already tried going to therapy or a marriage intensive. And you’re thinking you just need to find the right therapist or the right program. ## IS MY HUSBAND ADDICTED: SEEKING HELP & THERAPY **Anne:** Is my husband addicted? Here’s a thought. If you’re thinking that you just haven’t found the right program yet for your husband. The Living Free Workshop is a lot less expensive than years and years of couple therapy or addiction treatment. The Living Free Workshop is extremely affordable. So just go with me here for just a second. What if you enrolled in [The Living Free Workshop ](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/)first, before you try the next therapist or the next program or even the next, like, abuse cessation coach. The total runtime for the living free workshop is only two hours and 20 minutes. And the workbook is incredible, but you don’t even have to do the workbook. You can just watch the videos. The longest video is six minutes and the shortest one is only 28 seconds. The average video is about three minutes long. I’ve made them all really short. So that you could process the information. The idea is just watch the whole thing. Again, the runtime is only two hours and 20 minutes. Then as you find the next therapist or program for your husband. You can learn about this type of abuse and how to protect yourself. And if your husband has an abusive character. And if a couple therapy isn’t going to work, you’ll be able to recognize that very quickly. So that knowledge will save you tons of money and tons of time. And if he doesn’t have an abusive character, and therapy will help. You’ll see that clearly too. ## DOES HE HAVE AN ABUSIVE CHARACTER? **Anne:** Is my husband addicted? [The Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) just gives you the skills to be able to see what is happening. I don’t want any woman in the world to experience abuse, ever. And if it is abuse, it’s imperative that you have the information you need to protect yourself. So those are the three reasons why exploitative material is abusive. Number one, because it fuels trafficking. Number two, because it’s abusive to spouses and number three, because it’s abusive to the relationship. I can’t tell you how many women I’ve talked to over the years, thousands. Who told me that once they got this information. Once they understood from [The Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) how to determine if he really had an abusive character. Once they knew the emotional safety strategies, how everything changed in their life for the better. They were finally able to get some traction and protect themselves. And that’s my hope for you too. To learn more, [click this link](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [How to Set Boundaries With an Emotionally Abusive Husband - Elsa's Story](https://www.btr.org/how-to-set-boundaries/) **Published:** December 2, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Here's how to set the most effective boundaries for your emotional safety. **Content:** Learning how to set boundaries in an emotionally abusive relationship may seem confusing and overwhelming. ## SETTING BOUNDARIES WITH YOUR EMOTIONALLY ABUSIVE HUSBAND WILL ESTABLISH GREATER SAFETY Have you ever tried to set boundaries expecting more safety and security, only to feel more exposed to harm than ever? That’s because traditional boundary-setting models simply *don’t work* in abuse scenarios. Before I share what *does* work, here are a few resources: 1. To find out if your husband is emotionally abusive (and if you even need to set boundaries), Learn how to set boundaries, click here take my [free emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). 2. If you discover that he is emotionally abusive, and you want to go more in depth into how to set boundaries, my [Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) uses visuals to teach women how to set boundaries through easy to follow steps. Okay, so here’s what you need to know to set boundaries if your husband is emotionally abusive. ## EFFECTIVE BOUNDARIES ARE: - Not communicated to the emotional abuser with words - Courageous actions that evolve to fit YOUR emotional safety needs - Essential to emotional and psychological safety ## SETTING EFFECTIVE BOUNDARIES DOES NOT INCLUDE - If-then statements given to the abuser verbally or in writing - Stating your values or what you need - Telling him if he does it again, you’ll do something in response ## HOW TO SET BOUNDARIES IN MY EMOTIONALLY ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP? Establishing *effective* safety boundaries is new territory for many women who find Betrayal Trauma Recovery. If you’re wondering how to set boundaries, begin this process, ask yourself these questions: - **What actions can I take *today*** to begin creating more emotional & psychological safety for myself? - **How will I learn effective strategies** to keep expanding my emotional & psychological safety? The [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) teaches you step-by-step *how* to set boundaries effectively and *maintain* boundaries in an emotionally abusive relationship. - **Where will I seek support** as I begin the process of establishing safety boundaries? We recommend [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/). Elsa, a member of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery community, shares how she learned how to set boundaries with her emotionally abusive husband. ![How to Set Boundaries After Trauma](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Set-Boundaries-After-Trauma.webp "How to Set Boundaries After Trauma")## TRANSCRIPT: HOW TO SET BOUNDARIES WITH AN EMOTIONALLY ABUSIVE HUSBAND **Anne:** We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re going to call her Elsa and talk about how to set boundaries. Welcome Elsa. **Elsa:** Thank you. **Anne:** She’s been a podcast listener for a long time. It’s always an honor to have podcast listeners on. So thank you so much for supporting the podcast by listening to it. Let’s start with your story. Tell me about the beginning. Did you recognize your husband’s abusive behaviors at first? **Elsa:** When I first met him, two days in, he told me something that wasn’t the truth. But I thought, “Wow, how vulnerable. He told me he cheated on a past partner.” One partner, one time.It’s grooming. I had no idea what grooming was, it was a way to get me to trust him. I thought, “He was up front and told me this information. It’s all there is. All the skeletons are out of the closet.” And they weren’t. **Anne:** [If your husband is grooming](https://www.btr.org/is-my-husband-grooming-me/ "if your husband is grooming"), he makes you think, “No one who is a liar would tell me this . He must be telling the truth.” He tells a part of the truth that is the tip of the iceberg. If he told the truth, he’d say, “I look at pornography and masturbate every day. I’ve cheated on every partner. And I have every intention of cheating because I don’t want to be with one person.” But he doesn’t. He says just a tiny bit and then claims, “Now everything’s out on the table.” ## WHEN HE GIVES YOU THE IMPRESSION YOU DON’T NEED TO LEARN HOW TO SET BOUNDARIES **Elsa:** It creates a false sense of safety, yeah. **Anne:** Exactly, then you are left wondering what to do[ when your husband betrays your trust.](https://www.btr.org/what-to-do-when-husband-betrays-your-trust/ " when your husband betrays your trust.") Exactly, and it’s actually super scary because if it was before you were engaged, it’s really alarming that they think in these sick, twisted ways, like, “Oh, if I lie to her and she trusts me, that’s the kind of woman I wanna marry rather than a healthy person thinking, ” I would like a healthy relationship where we trust each other.” And you had no concrete reasons to learn how to set boundaries. **Elsa:** It was mind blowing that it was that planned and calculated. Before we married, I noticed some things regarding his behavior. There was an instance when he omitted some information. And I didn’t consider it abuse. I addressed it with him. He agreed and said I was right. I thought, *that’s it. That’s solved.* I felt like he heard me, and we moved on. After we married, I noticed he was more contemptuous when I brought things to him. And that’s when I started to have some questions and feel quite out of sorts because it felt like such a change from when we were dating. **Anne:** What was the nature of the information that he withheld? ![God Has Set Boundaries Bible Verse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/God-Has-Set-Boundaries-Bible-Verse.webp "God Has Set Boundaries Bible Verse")**Elsa:** We hadn’t dated that long, and I had a trip planned with a couple of my girlfriends to go to Europe. I’d be away for a couple of months. He said, would you want to be exclusive? It was like a big yes for me. But I felt like communication was difficult during the trip. I felt like he was hard to pin down. ## THE CAMPING TRIP INCIDENT **Elsa:** He said he was going to go camping one weekend. I had this gut feeling that he may go camping with somebody he worked with. Who was quite a bit younger than him. And I asked him if he did, and at first he said he went with just my dog because he was taking care of my dog. And then he said, “Oh, I went with some coworkers.” I found out the truth about six months later. That he had gone on a one-on-one camping trip with a 21 year old when he was in his mid thirties. So that’s obviously a red flag. But at the time, I was already pretty invested. And he denied anything happened. At first he understood, but after a few days of listening to my concerns about him withholding that information, he pressured me to “get over it.” And I worked through it. ![Love Yourself Enough to Set Boundaries](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Love-Yourself-Enough-To-Set-Boundaries.webp "Love Yourself Enough to Set Boundaries")**Anne:** Yeah, under those circumstances, I would have been hard to figure out you needed to learn how to set boundaries. Did you ever find out later that there was something that happened between them? **Elsa:** Exactly. Looking back now and the knowledge I have, I think he was grooming that co-worker. So I think it probably confused her quite a bit, if I was to put myself in her shoes. He told me she shot him down and said no. **Anne:** Totally, so had he been able to, he would have. ## TRICKLE DISCLOSURE & MANIPULATION **Elsa:** Yes, and he said that. Six months later. **Anne:** And then when they decide to tell you, it’s calculated to hurt you. When they feel like you’re maybe having a great day or something’s going well for you. They calculate it to hurt you. So can you tell me when he told you this? ![How to Get Better at Setting Boundaries](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Get-Better-At-Setting-Boundaries.webp "How to Get Better at Setting Boundaries")**Elsa:** He did do that to keep me kind of destabilized. This particular instance was before we got engaged. I think he was afraid I would leave him. So he told me he lied. And told me, “Now we have everything out in the open. Now you know everything.” It was a lie. I didn’t know how to set boundaries. ## HOW TO SET BOUNDARIES: GROOMING **Anne:** What types of reasons did you give in the beginning for this behavior that seemed kind of off? ## HOW TO SET BOUNDARIES IN COUNSELING **Elsa:** Before I met him, he’d been in the city with a lot of college students, young women, and he was in that kind of party atmosphere. So we were newly married and we moved to a different college town and his behavior towards me changed. I thought, “It’s probably me.” Plus, [my husband says I was the problem](https://www.btr.org/my-husband-says-im-the-problem/ "my husband says I was the problem") too. And I wondered if I should go to therapy. And he said, “Yeah, I think you should.” So he really let me believe I needed therapy and I needed to do my own work. ## WHEN YOU BLAME YOURSELF So I started counseling, and he did come to some early counseling sessions with me. And we found out there was an addiction. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) **Anne:** Did you find the therapy helpful? Did the therapist talk about how how to set boundaries with your husband? **Elsa:** No. I was pregnant, feeling anxious in the pregnancy, and I wasn’t able to put my finger on what was going on. I worried about the impact on my unborn child. So the goal was to reduce my anxiety. **Anne:** Did you get diagnosed with anxiety at that time? **Elsa:** No, we used it for insurance purposes, but I’ve never had a diagnosis of anything. **Anne:** That’s good. So many women get diagnosed with something during this time because instead of their therapist saying, “This is your internal warning system telling you something’s wrong. You are reacting in a totally normal way. Let’s figure out why your warning system is going off.” Instead of saying that, the therapist is like, “You’re just another crazy woman who’s having too much anxiety and you’re hysterical for no reason.” **Elsa:** That’s the only message I was getting. **Anne:** So the therapist doesn’t help you figure out what’s going on. She doesn’t help you figure out that you’re abused or how to set boundaries. How did you discover his use? Was [your husband on his phone all the time](https://www.btr.org/husband-is-on-phone-all-the-time/ "your husband on his phone all the time")? ## DISCOVERING ADDICTION **Elsa:** Turns out my gut is sensitive. So I kept bringing my concerns to him over and over. “Something doesn’t feel right. Something has changed.” Then one day I thought to ask him, “Do you look at inappropriate media?. And he said, “Yes, I do. So that I don’t bleep other women.” ## HOW TO SET BOUNDARIES: HE GOES TO SAA He shocked me. It’s a moment etched in my memory. I was shocked he never offered that information. That conversation never came up. **Anne:** Also, his opinion, his viewpoint, was that if he did not look at it, he did not have the integrity, ability, or adult skill of not having sex with someone who wasn’t his wife. That was his reasoning. “I’m looking at this awful stuff for you. because if I didn’t, I would be out having sex with other women. And you don’t want me to do that, do you?” **Elsa:** It was progress in his mind. **Anne:** That must have been devastating. I’m so sorry. When does the word addict come into play? **Elsa:** He told me he was a sex addict and I kind of laughed. I didn’t think it was a real thing. Then he said he was going to go to sex addicts anonymous. Much like when he confessed about the story about the 21 year old girl, I think he could sense that I would have him leave the house. And so he found SAA, and said, “I’m going to go.” And he went. At that point, I thought that was our only issue. I didn’t realize I needed to learn how to set boundaries. ## TRYING THERAPY But later, I found out it was much bigger than looking at exploitative material. I needed to protect myself by [reading and learning](/self-care-books-for-women/) how to set boundaries. **Anne:** Oh yeah, for sure. This is a systemic issue and it breaks my heart when he lies. If he says he is an addict and he is gonna get help for addiction, the help for wives of addicts centers around sort of leaving him alone and staying on your side of the street and working on your “codependency” or your problems. If he’s abusive, you need someone to help you get off the street all together because none of it is you. **Elsa:** Yes, that’s what I was seeking from professionals. I didn’t get that. Once I knew he had an addiction, I started reading. And that was what was recommended. I didn’t feel safe around his counselor, who was not certified sex addiction therapist. But I was trying all these different things. **Anne:** Even if the person was a certified sexual addiction therapist, the likelihood of them identifying the abuse is next to zero, because they don’t see it as an abuse issue. They’re not certified abuse specialists. They’re certified sexual addiction therapists. So they’ll identify anything he does as an extension of the addiction. So they’ll say, “He’s in addict mode. He’s not in recovery.” Rather than, “He’s abusive.” Which is a totally different thing for a woman to hear. ## SEPARATION & ESCALATION **Elsa:** For sure. Yeah. They didn’t tell me that. So he didn’t want to leave the comfort of the home. We had a loft in our garage. He’d go sleep out there. And I took a trip to California to visit a friend, to have some space. I had my daughter with me. And when I came back, he picked us up at the airport. He barely acknowledged me. There was a lot of feeling of contempt. And I was like, *I want him out of the home.* So I told him, and he raged and tore things apart in the house. And I did call the police. They came. He left after that for two months. He still had access to my daughter, he’d still come and get her, but we had no interaction. ![How to Set Boundaries Workshop](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Set-Boundaries-Workshop.webp "How to Set Boundaries Workshop")**Anne:** So you’re starting to learn how to use boundaries to separate yourself from his harm at this point. **Elsa:** Totally. So fast forward a couple months. He’s still coming to get my daughter, but I try to have little to no contact with him in that exchange. Then we’re at church on Easter and I walk by where my daughter is in the playroom, and he’s standing at the doorway of the playroom. It was so pleasant to talk with him. And he was so kind, he says he’s sorry. So from there, we started communication again. ## HOW TO SET BOUNDARIES: FALSE HOPE OF RECONCILIATION And we start to move forward and repair our relationship. And he eventually moved in after about a month. We were together for another six months, and it got worse. It got much worse. H e cut off all communication I had with his counselor. She would allow me to call her, still no knowledge of how to set boundaries. He didn’t allow me to talk to her. He wouldn’t talk to anybody in the church with me. And he wouldn’t let me be around if he was talking to his sister. She was a bit older than him, and was a support to me. So I was basically completely isolated and the abuse escalated. So he was going on a trip to see his family. And I just knew. So I said, “When you leave this time, you’re not coming back in the home.” When he first left, all I could think about was, *how do I keep my daughter close to him? How do I make this work for him?* ## FINAL DECISION TO DIVORCE My whole way of thinking was what would he want? And then I started to think about what I wanted and what brings me peace. And that led me to make some choices for myself and my daughter. I didn’t tell him that I changed my plan to move back to Canada, where I’m a citizen. I was authorized to work in the United States. He thought I would continue to pursue my green card, and he could help me so that I could remain in the United States. He believed he still had a certain amount of control over me, but I took action, which is how to set boundaries. When he found out, he was obviously upset, but it protects me. I’m not a citizen in the US and I don’t have any support. **Anne:** And protected you from prolonged legal abuse in terms of the divorce. But maybe not in terms of custody, because I have a feeling that you’re going to bring up custody. Because this guy sounds like a coercive controller. It’s strange, because they do things that seem stupid, because it’s hurting them. But it’s also hurting you. ## FINDING SUPPORT THROUGH BETRAYAL TRAUMA RECOVERY **Anne:** It also seems smart. Women in this situation are usually like, how can you be so smart and so stupid simultaneously? **Elsa:** It’s a question that’s crossed my mind, yeah. **Elsa:** I lived, in the northern states near the Canadian border. I just couldn’t find anything in the city for support. I mentioned he started SAA. They did have a group. Then I found a COSA group of about four or five women in that area. I just didn’t find that I got much from it. So I started looking for podcasts. And I stumbled across Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Being so isolated, it was my main support. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcast helped me connect the dots. I did read some books, but I would say the podcasts from Betrayal Trauma Recovery were the main thing that kept me rooted in reality. Where I was like, “Yes, this matches.” ## WHEN YOU CAN’T FIND THE RIGHT SUPPORT TO SET BOUNDARIES Because like you said, in certain parts of COSA helped kind of. But then listening to the podcast and the different people you would have on was the main thing that rooted me in reality of what I was experiencing. It was like a big, yes, this fits with what I’m experiencing. And that’s what helped me in a lot of my decision making. His counselor didn’t know about the podcast. But it threatened him that I was learning what I was learning. His counselor even said to him at one point, “She’s reading these books. She’s reading these books.” Like it threatened him cause then I was no longer trapped in the chaos. **Anne:** When you found the BTR podcast was it? Kind of revelatory? Like, was it something totally new that you hadn’t thought of or heard before? Or was it something that you did know inside, but you just didn’t know you knew it? **Elsa:** I’d say the latter, for sure. ## HOW TO SET BOUNDARIES: REALIZING THE EXTENT OF ABUSE I work in healthcare, I have some knowledge of like, mental health. So, as I started to listen to it, I’m like, Yes, this makes sense as to what I already know. Like I I knew about attachment and addiction . it was like I knew it was ill treatment but I didn’t think it was as calculated as it was. BTR episodes started to put pieces together. **Anne:** When women find the podcast, they’re like, “Yes!” Like they knew it. But they didn’t have words for it or couldn’t bring it to the surface. And they’re also like, “What!? How did I not know?” That’s how I felt. I was like, *how am I a college graduate with a master’s degree who doesn’t want to be abused? And not realize I’m being abused? This is crazy.* It’s both like, “I knew it.” And then like, “How did I not know it?” at the exact same time? And it’s such a strange place to be, where at least I felt so stupid that I didn’t see it. But then also not stupid at all because I’d never been educated about it. And all the abuse checklists are like, does he control your transportation? And you’re like, no, does he trap you in a room? No. I mean, maybe he might trap you in a room. I’m not saying he wouldn’t. I’m just saying the classic abuse checklists didn’t seem to fit my situation. It was just confusing. ## THE ROLE OF FEELINGS IN IDENTIFYING ABUSE **Elsa:** The idea of secret keeping his “power over” resonated with me. I’m like, yeah. Because at first I thought he didn’t realize it was painful for me. Or he didn’t realize the depth of the impact of his actions. But then I circled around to the fact that I didn’t matter to him. **Anne:** He uses your feelings against you to control you. **Elsa:** Yeah, and that. **Anne:** Rather than listening or caring about your feelings. So the only reason he pays attention to your feelings is to manipulate you, control the situation and the narrative. And that’s where women, well meaning, awesome, caring women, don’t know what they’re dealing with. So of course, they’re going to share their feelings with their husband. Because they think in sharing their feelings, they can resolve the issue. They want to [know if their abusive husband is](https://www.btr.org/how-to-know-if-my-abusive-husband-is-changing/ "know if their abusive husband is") changing. But with an abuser sharing your feelings, it is literally offering them a list of how to manipulate you better. That’s why it’s so important to know what you’re looking at. ## BOUNDARIES & RESPONSES **Elsa:** For sure, yeah. Trust your gut. How do you feel around him? That was a big one for me. I never felt calm, I always felt like something wasn’t right. During our divorce, the lawyers said, “Let’s subpoena his bank records.” So I’m like, “Okay, sure.” And his bank records showed he was at a college bar every night. Then, he started to really just harass me a lot through the parenting app. We had created this parenting plan when we lived in, in the U.S. Which was a part of how to set boundaries. And when the borders finally opened and we moved , we had no idea of the impact it would have on my daughter. She was barely two at the time. I worked full time, and she was in daycare full time. It was a rigorous schedule for her. Two nights a week, she’d have to be away from home for 12 hours. We’d have to meet him at this neutral location. It’s dark. It’s raining. The roads are bad. ## HOW TO SET BOUNDARIES: USING THE PARENTING APP FOR DOCUMENTATION As much feedback as I gave him: that this was so hard on her. Can we please figure out a different way for him to get that one and a half hour visit by extending his weekend visits or something, he just wouldn’t budge. And he could see the difficulty for her in terms of her sleep schedule. **Anne:** And for you. **Elsa:** Exactly. He knew, and he didn’t care if it was hard on me. And she was just a byproduct of that. So that went on for about six months. And then I just said, “Enough.” I learned how to set boundaries from BTR, from you and your podcast and your group sessions. I said, “You can take me to court, but I’m decreasing this to one night a week on her weeknights.” And he was a lot of a lot of talk, but then no action. Because if you get down to the truth of everything, of what he actually wants. It’s not that extra one and a half hours. It was more like you said, it was impacting our lives. We had no free time, we’re exhausted all the time. He thought it was fun to make us miserable. A lot of crazy making in that he’ll say, “You never give me any time, da da da.” At first I was over explaining and deflecting, and now I don’t do any of that. The parenting app has been so great because it’s all there. It’s all documented. ## THE BETRAYAL TRAUMA RECOVERY LIVING FREE & MESSAGE STRATEGIES It’s valid to look back and go, *this is all the times I offered.* He knows he doesn’t try to make up any extra time with her, so it’s playing itself out. And the less I engage, the less of a rise he gets from me, the more I have cut down any interaction on the app, to like the bare minimum, he shrinks away. ![Setting Boundaries After Trauma](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Setting-Boundaries-After-Trauma.webp "Setting Boundaries After Trauma")He doesn’t try to make up any extra time with her, so it’s playing itself out. And the less I engage, the less of a rise he gets from me, the more I have cut down any interaction on the app, to like the bare minimum, he shrinks away. **Anne:** I love that you’re using [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) strategies. That is awesome. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop teaches you how to think about the abuser, so that you can respond to them in a way that protects you. And learn how to set boundaries. Where he can’t actually cross them. **Elsa:** I love that. **Anne:** It is hard ’cause the way other therapists teach boundaries, women are like, “But he keeps crossing my boundaries.” And that’s because the way the therapists teach it is not helpful to victims of abuse. Because it’s possible to set boundaries where he actually can’t cross them. ## HOW TO SET BOUNDARIES: DO NOT BELIEVE YOUR ABUSER And women who take the Living Free Workshop learn, in your case, you were like, *okay, he’s threatening to take me to court, he wants me to be terrified of losing my daughter. He’s threatening me so I’ll do what he wants. So I’m just gonna say,* “Sounds good. This is my attorney’s phone number. Let me know how it goes.” I mean, some will take you to court, but the majority of them think the threats in and of themselves will work, and they don’t actually wanna spend the time and money and energy to take you to court because in reality, their actions rarely match their words. In that way, women can be delivered because the strategy is not believing them. ## THE IMPORTANCE OF BOUNDARIES **Elsa:** Exactly. What you said about the boundaries, I think of that all the time. I share it with other people, because I learned it from you and the podcast. And [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/) because many people think it’s a lot of words to describe your boundary. I love that it’s an action, an action you take.I advocate for myself and my daughter. I have the documentation to support decisions. So I’ve protected myself that way. **Anne:** Yeah, that’s the only thing that will actually protect you. Like in the beginning, you’re trying to figure out, *is this abuse?* What’s going on? If you’re using the Living Free strategies, you don’t have to ask him, “Hey, are you abusive?” Or tell him, “this is abuse.” You don’t have to bring it up. You can just observe. And you can see that he’s abusive. If you see that he’s abusive, you need to get to safety. But you don’t need to say anything about it. And if you tell them your boundary, it’s a big giant flag that says, “Hey, this is how to abuse me.” So once you know they’re an abuser, you never want to tell them. **Elsa:** I learned that from you too. I had to go through some of the documentation recently. And I think it was over 30 counts of him accusing me of being a parental alienator and narcissist. And I don’t comment. There’s no point, but yeah, he heavily projects on me that I’m mentally unstable. ## I LEARNED FROM YOU TO FOCUS ON HOW I FEEL Setting boundaries has protected my peace because otherwise, he’s always diminishing me or invalidating me. Or make snide remarks about, or attack, your character. Before I just believed him when he said he loved me and he wouldn’t do it again. But now, he can’t do it to me. I’ve even watched my own daughter tell him no, like on a video call. Like she says, “No I don’t like that book.” And there he goes again, telling her “Of course you like it. You just don’t know that you do yet.” It’s constant harassment to her. So now that I know how to set boundaries because I learned that from The Living Free Workshop, I don’t have to experience that anymore because I protect myself from him. **Anne:** I’m so glad the strategies worked for you. I’ve heard that from so many women. Thank you so much for sharing your story. I appreciate the time that you’ve taken to talk with us today. **Elsa:** Yeah, thank you so much for everything. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast **Tags:** How Do I Set Boundaries --- ### [The Risk from Marriage Infidelity Counseling No One Shares](https://www.btr.org/marriage-infidelity-counseling/) **Published:** December 9, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Marriage infidelity counseling seems helpful, but may miss patterns. Know this before that first session. **Content:** If you’re considering marriage infidelity counseling, you’re not alone. Most women in crisis start here, Googling late at night, hoping a professional can finally make sense of what’s happening in their marriage. Counseling *can* help in the right situation, but there are some realities women wish they had known *before* scheduling that first session. ## 5 THINGS TO KNOW BEFORE STARTING MARRIAGE INFIDELITY COUNSELING Here are five things every woman should understand before going: ### **1. COUNSELING FOLLOWS THE STORY YOU BRING INTO THE ROOM** Most marriage infidelity counseling isn’t designed to identify emotional or psychological abuse. Counselors are trained to help with communication, reconnection, and repairing trust, not spotting [betrayal trauma in relationships](https://www.btr.org/betrayal-trauma-in-relationships/), coercion, or chronic deception. So if you walk in unsure of what’s happening, the therapist often follows *your* frame, even if something much more serious is going on under the surface. ### **2. COUPLE COUNSELING CAN ACCIDENTALLY REWARD HIS MANIPULATION** Women often tell me they felt worse *after* marriage infidelity counseling, not because the therapist was unkind, but because the process unintentionally gave their husband new ways to twist the narrative. Men who are actively lying, hiding, or manipulating can look reflective, apologetic, and “committed to change,” while the woman who has been mistreated looks exhausted, overwhelmed, or reactive. The result? He’s praised. She’s pathologized. ### **3. MARRIAGE INFIDELITY COUNSELING CAN’T FIX A PATTERN IT CAN’T SEE** Many counselors assume both people tell the truth. They rely on transparency, good faith, and mutual honesty, qualities your husband may not bring to the table. If the root issue is chronic lying, coercion, or secret-keeping, no amount of worksheets, empathy-building exercises, or compromise strategies will solve the real problem. ### **4. YOU MAY LEAVE WITH MORE CONFUSION INSTEAD OF ANSWERS** Thousands of women have come to BTR after months or years of marriage infidelity counseling, saying the same thing: “It didn’t get better. I was just blamed more.” When a therapist can’t name the deception, the blame shifts onto the woman, her “communication style,” her “triggers,” her “expectations.” They might recommend other treatment programs, like addiction recovery or [codependents anonymous](https://www.btr.org/codependents-anonymous/). You end up working harder, while he becomes more skilled at hiding the truth. ### **5. YOU DESERVE CLARITY *BEFORE* MARRIAGE INFIDELITY COUNSELING – NOT AFTER** If you’re already exhausted, confused, or walking on eggshells, you don’t need more pressure. You need tools, language, and a framework to understand what you’re actually facing—*before* deciding whether marriage infidelity counseling is the right path. That clarity protects you. It also prevents you from spending months (or years) trying to repair something you didn’t break. A simple place to start is **[The After Infidelity Free Email Course](https://www.btr.org/after-infidelity-free-email-course/)**, a private way to explore the patterns so you can walk into any counseling environment fully informed. Or, if you want deeper guidance at your own pace, the **[Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/)** gives you the tools I wish someone had handed me the first time I stepped into a marriage infidelity counseling office. ## TRANSCRIPT: THE RISK FROM MARRIAGE INFIDELITY COUNSELING NO ONE SHARES **Anne:** I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Sarita. She went to marriage infidelity counseling, and was unaware of the risks. If you need live support, [attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session](https://www.btr.org/group/) today. Here’s what Sarita said. **Sarita:** “I wish that I had found the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast before I tried therapy and spent thousands of dollars. Your podcast, is what I needed.” Sarita: We were young. We started dating when I was 19. As a young girl, it looked like he just had some anger problems. When he would get really angry, he would walk around the school and actually punch the walls. ## WHEN PASTORAL MARITAL COUNSELING MISSES THE HIDDEN PATTERNS **Sarita:** My very first step actually was trying to do counseling with our pastor. This was probably about a year and a half into our marriage. I really noticed him drift from God. That’s what it seemed like at the time. Because prior to that, he was this alleged devoted Christian. He would wake up early in the morning and do his devotions and pray. And I started to actually get worried about him, thinking, “Oh no, like, is he depressed? Is he struggling in his faith?” I wanted to come alongside him as the wife. “What can I do for you? How can I love you, support you, pray for you, and make your life easier?” And I didn’t realize what was happening back then. We started doing marriage infidelity counseling with our pastor, and that was the worst idea on the planet. I did not know that, obviously. **Anne:** Because that’s the most common thing people suggest when someone’s having “relationship problems.” People will suggest couple therapy. So can you talk about how that went? **Sarita:** I never really felt heard. I felt like our pastor made a lot of excuses for him. What we did in counseling was watch this video series by Paul Tripp. I remember feeling frustrated after each session, just not feeling like we were getting anywhere. I felt like there was a lot of downplaying, a lot of blaming me, and a lot of, “Oh, he’s just really struggling in his faith. He’s really broken, and he needs your support. He needs your love. He needs your help.” ## WHY MARRIAGE INFIDELITY COUNSELING OFTEN LEAVES WOMEN MORE CONFUSED **Sarita:** The responsibility was all on me, not on him. There were many excuses for him. We both actually decided marriage infidelity counseling was not working. And we decided to stop going. We actually found a church an hour away, so we decided to check it out, and we loved it. That church was going to save our marriage. And so we actually moved an hour away to be part of this church. **Anne:** How did that go? **Sarita:** Not good. It ended up being years and years of [spiritual abuse symptoms](https://www.btr.org/spiritual-abuse-symptoms/) from this church, a lot of gaslighting, pounding passages into my head, about how you’re going to help save your husband. Just pray for him and love him through your actions, and stop constantly trying to say things to him. Peter 3, verse 1, “Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, when they see your respectful and pure conduct. Let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God’s sight is very precious. For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves by submitting to their own husbands, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening.” **Anne:** Wow, that’s quite the interpretation of that. Why in the world would God tell anybody not to fear something frightening? God doesn’t want us to submit to evil. The interpretation of that doesn’t even make sense. ## THE BURDEN PLACED ON WIVES IN SPIRITUAL COMMUNITIES **Sarita:** Exactly, so that is the passage that was drilled into my head for years and years. Win him without a word. Just basically be as perfect as you humanly can. As a wife make sure you are keeping up the house, taking care of the children, removing every possible stressor at home for him, so that he doesn’t explode on you. I remember friends telling me, Sarita, it’s actually absurd to me to think about how much time you spend cleaning and cooking, because your house is always spotless. And we had four kids in four years. I was always pregnant or always nursing. He pretty much always came home to a warm home-cooked meal. I took care of everything for him. I took care of finances and scheduled marriage infidelity counseling. Throughout this time, he actually almost killed me. He went to jail for that. I came to the elders and my mentor, and I told them, look, this is where I’m at. So I am feeling a lot of bitterness. [My husband has no empathy](https://www.btr.org/husband-has-no-empathy/). I do not feel an ounce of empathy anymore for him. And I need help, because I want to forgive him. I want to care about what’s going on with him, but I just don’t anymore. I don’t want to stay in this place. Can you please help me? And then one week after, our elders came to our house with papers in their hands, and gave us papers of church discipline. The church disciplined him for emotional abuse, harshness with his wife, not stepping up as a husband. The church disciplined me for unforgiveness and bitterness toward him. **Anne:** Wow. **Sarita:** And so that was a really big slap in the face. ## I CRIED MYSELF TO SLEEP DESPERATE FOR HELP **Anne:** Yeah. **Sarita:** Because it was like, I came to you desperate for help, seeking marriage infidelity counseling, and telling you I don’t want to stay in this place. Instead, you slapped me with church discipline. **Anne:** Did you know of any pornography use and infidelity at the time? **Sarita:** Oh yeah, he was very cold, extremely cold. I remember feeling like he hated me. I remember begging him in tears almost every night to just come to bed with me. Telling him like, “I love you, I want to spend time with you,” And I remember him essentially telling me to “F” off. And I would cry myself to sleep. This went on for years. And he watched pornography or played video games. I actually remember having to hide finances from him. If I didn’t hide that money, it would be completely gone. He woke me up many times in the middle of the night. There was a lot of sexual coercion. And I remember telling him, no, I’m not ready for another baby right now. The way I actually conceived our fourth child was marital rape. I obviously would never take back that baby ever. Every pregnancy of mine, I was on bedrest, in mass amounts of pain. He did not care. My body was his, and he essentially owned it. He was going to make sure he got what he needed. I remember many times asking him “Hey, honey. Are you doing okay? Like how is the pornography use going? Is there anything I can do as your wife to support you?” I am willing to basically be your object. If you would stop betraying me. ## WHY MARRIAGE INFIDELITY COUNSELING MISSES EMOTIONAL AND SEXUAL COERCION **Sarita:** I actually was always available. “We can do this, I’m here. I’m not going to tell you no.” I used to try to initiate a lot, and he would turn me down nearly every single time, and it was crushing. **Anne:** Did the church encourage this idea that you needed to be available for sex all the time? **Sarita:** It was very much within the teachings of our church. As the wife, you should be available to your husband, unless you are sick, or unless you have a valid reason. **Anne:** *I don’t want to* is not a valid enough reason, apparently. **Sarita:** Yes, exactly. And the only times that I ever actually turned him down were when I was pregnant and in tons of pain. Because I knew if he doesn’t do it here, he will go somewhere else. **Anne:** You probably didn’t recognize at the time, that going to marriage infidelity counseling was a form of resistance. You were trying to get him to be kind to you. You were trying to stop his behavior from hurting you. And this is what they told you would make the situation better. But my guess is you didn’t recognize it as a form of resistance at the time. **Sarita:** Yeah, no I didn’t. It was just me doing my Biblical duty as a wife. When we conceived our fourth child, I remember coming forward to the elders, and they did sit down with us and say, “No means no.” Like you cannot rape your wife. It was like a slap on the wrist. There was no comfort or reprieve. It was just, he got you pregnant, now you gotta deal with it. ## WHY EXPOSURE, CHURCH DISCIPLINE, AND MARITAL INFIDELITY COUNSELING DOESN’T MAKE HIM SAFE **Sarita:** That is when his behaviors actually escalated. He had been hiding behind this mask for so many years. Especially with this church community and with our friends and family. That he was this Christian man with these values and morals. And he loved his wife and took care of his family. And I think when people started to see through it, he finally felt peace to be who he was. He started a lot of drinking, hanging out with very questionable people. And he stopped going to church. going on dating sites, hookup sites, and granted, it could have started before. **Anne:** So the second the church situation wasn’t helping him exploit you anymore, he was done with it. **Sarita:** Pretty much, yep, if they were going to expose him, he just didn’t come anymore. **Anne:** I want to stress that, because so many women are like, if someone would discipline him, then we might get help. And then maybe our marriage could be good. But often when that happens, when he’s exposed through marriage infidelity counseling, things don’t get better, they actually get worse. My guess is, you never would have guessed back then that discipline would have made it worse. **Sarita:** I thought the church, the congregation, would step up. I was sitting in church alone with my four children, everyone looking at me, everyone avoided me like the plague. **Anne:** It’s so awful. I’m so sorry. So for our listeners who are thinking like, “Oh, if I could get a diagnosis or if I could get someone to explain to him how bad this is,” he already knows what he’s doing. He knows what’s going on. Nobody tells a woman that. ## WHEN MARRIAGE INFIDELITY COUNSELING PROFESSIONALS KNOW THE TRUTH BUT DON’T TELL THE VICTIM **Anne:** They all say you just need couple therapy or marriage infidelity counseling, and you need to get him help and be understanding with him. **Sarita:** And they don’t realize how damaging couple therapy actually is. Especially for the victim, but even for him, because it enables him. And when you said you don’t need a diagnosis, I had begged him to go see a psychiatrist, and he finally did. And they actually interviewed me too. They wanted to know what my take on things was. And the psychiatrist at the time was heavily leaning toward antisocial personality disorder. So sociopathy, he went to probably two or three visits with that doctor. And I think by the time he realized what they were coming to, that was when he said, “I’m not going back.” I remember the psychiatrist telling me, I think this is what we are dealing with. And what’s wild is that I met my mentor from back then. I told her that and she said, oh yeah, that’s not a surprise to me at all. Me and the pastors used to always say that he was absolutely a sociopath. **Anne:** What! **Sarita:** And I just remember thinking like you guys knew years ago when we were in marriage infidelity counseling and you didn’t tell me. **Anne:** And also, you didn’t say, hey, how can we support you, to get to safety? Did anyone ever ask you that? **Sarita:** Nope. **Anne:** Yeah, that’s That is super, super alarming. **Sarita:** She ended up blaming me. I asked her. I said, why didn’t you guys tell me that? And she said, I don’t think you would have listened. **Anne:** She never gave you the opportunity to listen. ## PEOPLE DON’T UNDERSTAND WHAT IT IS LIKE TO BE AN ABUSE VICTIM **Sarita:** Right, you never gave me the chance, and it doesn’t matter whether I would have listened in marriage infidelity counseling, or not. It was your responsibility to say something. You don’t get to decide what you think I’m gonna hear. **Anne:** As an advocate, I observe women continually trying to get to safety through marriage infidelity counseling, and sometimes they don’t feel like what I’m telling them is the safest option. At the time, they might say something like, “He’s not really abusive,” And I believe it’s because that feels too unsafe, because the things they’re describing are definitely abuse. That’s why many people disagree with our stance here at BTR that betrayal is abuse. But I still say it anyway, despite the fact that they don’t think it’s abuse or think I’m being too harsh because this guy is a good guy or something. I don’t think people understand what it’s like to be an abuse victim trying to get to safety and not getting the right information from anybody. **Sarita:** Exactly, that’s exactly what I do now. Like, when I’m talking with other women about their situation, whether they’re currently in it, or they just came out of it, I will say that to them, you do realize that is abuse. Some of them will say, no, they’ll explain why he acted that way. And I’m always like, No. I can guarantee you that if we really look at this deeper, this has been going on for a long time. And so I think it’s a lot more helpful to just come out and say no, that is abuse. What you said, I have a lot of people too that disagree with me. They’ll think, or they’ll say, it feels like you just call everything abuse. ## I FINALLY FOUND OUT ABOUT EVERYTHING **Anne:** Yeah, I have people say that to me too. **Sarita:** Yeah, and not quite. Once you understand it and once you see it, you cannot unsee it. You see it everywhere you go, in your family, in your friendships even, in your work, in acquaintances. **Anne:** Yeah, it’s true. You cannot unsee it. **Sarita:** Everything became much more exposed, I found out about the hookup sites. And I ended up having surgery when our newborn was six weeks old. And he actually left me with our four children. During the entire time, he was out getting wasted, doing who knows what. By the end of that month was when I came to find out about everything, and that is when I decided to leave. Before I finally left for good, he actually did go through a very short term addiction treatment, but he left early. He didn’t even graduate. **Anne:** What type of addiction? **Sarita:** Alcoholism, it took a matter of about a month before the mask started to fall off. I remember standing on my front porch, praying and getting this impression from God, where he essentially said to me, “I can save him, whether you are married to him or not. I’ve got this from here. You go and be free.” And I felt this physical release, oh my goodness, I can breathe. Because for years I had been told to save my husband. I filed for divorce, and I felt a lot of grief. And I was heartbroken and destroyed. And then I decided I regretted it. So I was like, I’m going to save my marriage. ## SEEING THE SAME ABUSIVE PATTERN IN A SECOND MARRIAGE **Sarita:** It was this whole thing where he was actually supposed to break it off with his then girlfriend. And I was supposed to break it off with my then boyfriend, and I kept up my end of the deal. I initially left him in April, and by December he officially served me with papers. And then we divorced the following year. **Anne:** So Sarita will now share what happened with her second marriage. So why don’t you just start at the beginning? **Sarita:** I actually met him when I was 16 years old. He was in this friend group that my ex used to hang out with a lot. It was interesting, because back then I wasn’t attracted to him. On top of that, he was seven years older than me. As an adult now looking back, that’s weird. That he was comfortable hanging out with 16 and 17 year olds. Granted, nothing inappropriate ever happened between us back then. When we were friends, I would talk to him about this relationship here and there. It was not often. There were a few times that he had given me advice. So his cousin died in a car accident. It was a really sad situation. But I went to the funeral and saw him like, good to see you, whatever, you know. Through the years, we very loosely kept in contact. At one point in time, he came to a church event with me and my first husband. During that meeting, he showed me this list he carried around with him, of what he wants in a woman. And it was this bullet pointed list of brunette, she’s gotta have all these character traits, body traits, like eye color. **Anne:** Was it mostly physical? ## DOING EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO SAVE THIS MARRIAGE: MARRIAGE INFIDELITY COUNSELING **Sarita:** Yes, mostly physical. He did have some, she has to love the Lord, ’cause he did claim to be a believer. So there was stuff like that sprinkled in there, but it was really, this is my perfect woman, essentially. **Anne:** Physically. **Sarita:** Yeah, and I remember thinking back then, that’s weird. Like, so you’re not even willing to consider another woman outside of that. **Anne:** But also not like, has a good sense of humor. Did it have anything about her personality? **Sarita:** I don’t remember. His big points on there were like the physical traits. And then, like I said, she has to love the Lord. But it was almost like she has to love the Lord was like this added bonus, but he is looking for this woman that fits this perfect mold. I actually remember seeing his first wife on Facebook, and I used to comment on those posts like, “Oh my gosh, congratulations. I’m so happy for you. She’s beautiful.” It was like friend to friend. I’m like, wow, I watched your journey with your first wife. So anyway, when my husband at the time, went through a treatment program. What do you know? His recovery coach was yep, my second ex. So I’m desperately trying to do everything I possibly can even with marriage infidelity counseling to save this marriage. I am so committed to this marriage and this man. And I told my future second husband, “Hey, please take care of him, please love on him, check in on him.” I actually worked at that treatment facility. He was in the men’s building, and then I was in the women’s building. And he was like, “Yeah, absolutely I will.” ## DEALING WITH SEPARATION AT THE SAME TIME **Sarita:** He was going through a separation with his wife. During both of our first marriages, we’re dealing with separation simultaneously. And that was something that bonded us. My first marriage ended. Years later, I saw him in the parking lot, and I ran up to him. I gave him a hug. I was like, “I haven’t seen you in years. It’s so good to see you.” And at this time, we’re both single, and so I’m like, “We really should catch up sometime. It’s been so long.” We went bowling, we went out to eat, and we just had a fun time. We played basketball. He was actually intentional about saying, “I am not interested, you’re a friend.” ‘Cause when we would go out to eat and stuff together as friends, people would be like, “Oh my gosh, you guys are such a cute couple.” And I’m not kidding you, he would literally gag and be like, “Oh, no. I would never date her. She’s just a friend.” **Anne:** Were you interested in him? Or were you like, this is great. I like being his friend. Was there a part of you that was like, well, if he wanted more, then I would want more too? **Sarita:** I was actually seeing someone else during that summer. I liked just being friends. **Anne:** Now you had seen his list of what I want in a woman. Did you fit some of that “criteria” at all? Or were you thinking in your mind well, of course that’s rude. But I can see why he’s not interested. ‘Cause I’ve seen his list and I’m not what he’s looking for. Did that enter your mind at all? ## HE WAS OBSESSED WITH MY FRIEND **Sarita:** No, I really didn’t fit his list, other than he wanted a girl that was short and I had long black hair. I’m Asian Indian and have a slightly darker complexion. I’m not super dark, but tan. There were a couple of girls he was very interested in during the summer. One of them was a friend of mine. She had been like family to me for many years. He was just obsessed with her. He would be like, can you please talk to her and see if she’ll go out with me, or just let me take her on a date? And I would always be like, no, I’m not doing that for you. Because if she already told you no, it’s a no. ‘Cause she was a bartender, and he would drink or whatever and try to talk to her. And I remember thinking back then, dude, take a hint. He did this with her and another girl. I remember telling him you have to stop and give it a rest. And he was like, “I just wish they would give me a chance. I just wanna take them on a date, just one date.” And I’m like, “But the answer was no. So just move on.” **Anne:** Looking back, do you think that he was maybe using you to get to her. **Sarita:** Very possible. **Anne:** Because these guys are so transactional, they’re not doing it just for “fun.” They have a goal in mind and they’re trying to accomplish that goal. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## HE ASKS TO MOVE INTO MY HOUSE **Sarita:** Exactly. I was dating other people and enjoying single life. He had his son during the last month of summer for a couple weeks. We got our kids together once, and we took them to the fair. His son got sick at one point, and he reached out to me and asked, “What do I do?” I’m thinking he’s a single dad. He is trying so hard. He just needs a woman to show him that this is what you do when your kid’s sick. So at the end of summer, he called me out of nowhere and he goes, “When I was on the way home from dropping off my son, my car broke down.” So his car’s stuck in a shop 12 hours away. He takes a plane back home, and he calls me and goes. “Can I stay with you while my car is getting worked on?” Because he actually lived with his parents. This is a 33-year-old man. And he lived a half hour from town, a half hour from where he worked. And so he goes, “Would you be okay with me staying in the living room? I’ll sleep on the floor. I don’t know how I’ll get to work every day, because my car’s stuck in the shop. I don’t have money to fix it right now, and I can’t get a ride to and from work every day.” There was that little voice that was like, “I don’t know how I feel about this. This is kind of a big ask.” I’m a single mom, and I’m thinking “I’m just not really sure if I’m comfortable with this.” ## I REALIZE HE’S USING ME **Sarita:** I ended up ignoring that small voice, and I was like, “I guess if it’s only for a few weeks, I don’t have a bedroom, I don’t have anything. You can sleep on the living room floor.” And he was like, “That’s totally fine.” And because we both worked at the same place, he expected me to take him to work every day. It was a perfect setup. He was just using me. I did not work every day. I was actually technically on call. So there were many mornings when I was waking my kids up at 6, 6:30 in the morning, getting them ready so that we could take him to work. It was a huge sacrifice for me to do this. He knew that and never expressed gratitude for it. He was like, thanks. That was it. He never offered to help pay bills. He never offered, can I give you 300 bucks to help cover the extra utilities? Like nothing. **Anne:** Or even gas ’cause you’re driving him. **Sarita:** Nope, he was very much like, I’m just using you and I’m not giving you anything in return. And so by the end of that month, I’m like, “Okay, what’s going on here?” And he was like, “I’ve just been trying so hard to save up money to get my car fixed so that I can get it back.” **Anne:** Maybe he lied about the car and it wasn’t even in the shop. Maybe he had to give it to his ex or something. ## WHERE IS HIS MONEY GOING? **Sarita:** Maybe. And so with that, of course I’m feeling guilt, he’s just trying to get outta this bind, and then I’m gonna be like, yeah, so can you help pay rent? **Anne:** But he doesn’t have any other expenses. **Sarita:** No, none. I’m sitting here thinking, how do you not have anything? Because you’ve been living with your parents for several years. Now you work two or three jobs. Where is all your money going? This isn’t adding up at all. It never did add up. He was supposed to move across the country to live by his son. I remember asking him, “I just don’t understand. I mean, you divorced almost three years. How do you not have the money to move?” **Anne:** What were his excuses? **Sarita:** He is essentially saying, “I’m the hero here of my son’s story, because I just don’t want him to grow up with all this pain and trauma. I wanted my son here with me, and I could have kept him here. I have spent a lot of time praying about this, and I knew that if my son grew up here, he would grow up with parents who fought all the time, even separated. And it wasn’t gonna be healthy for him.” **Anne:** If it’s used for manipulation, that’s the definition of taking God’s name in vain. He’s saying he prayed about it and God told him to do this, when that wasn’t the case. ## I REALIZED I NEEDED TO LEAVE **Sarita:** Yes, yes that’s exactly it. After we married, I told him, “You didn’t feel peace from God. You felt relief, because then you didn’t have to be a father.” I said, “I would be homeless before I go without my kids.” And knew that I needed to leave and that something needed to change when I was actually able to talk with his ex-wife on the phone a few times. I don’t think she could name it abuse. She would just name it as a bad fight. He grabbed her and threw her down to the floor. And another time, he held her up against the wall with his hand on her throat. And told her he was gonna pummel her face into the wall, things like that. This is a lot more serious than what I thought. I didn’t even realize how bad this was. I remember bringing this up to him, and he of course was like, that never happened. And I don’t know why she even said that. He would admit to some of it, he wouldn’t admit to all of it. That’s when I was like, wow, this is serious. At that time, we actually were headed for divorce. He filed, and were almost done with our divorce. Then we ended up getting back together. About two months later, I ended up pregnant. He was enraged. He told me it was my fault and apparently purposely got myself pregnant, accusation after accusation. Then he was like, “Is it even mine?” He stormed around the house and pouted, and the silent treatment for two days. I remember him saying to me, “So are you and the kids gonna find somewhere to live then?” ## HE PHYSICALLY GRABBED & SHOVED ME **Sarita:** I knew I had to go when he physically grabbed me and shoved me. I obviously will not say that. He’s like, “I just moved you.” And I’m like, “No, no, no.” The force and aggression behind that was a lot. I looked into his eyes when he did it. And I knew in that moment, he wants to kill me right now. I saw this look in his eye of I just wanna hurt you. We moved the next morning with help from some of our church members and friends. They actually watched him and the way he was talking to me. And one of them later on ended up saying “I could see the abuse clear as day, just from how he was talking to you when we were moving. We could tell you were afraid of him. It was obvious. I felt so filled with fear. There were multiple occasions that he would show up at the house. And he’d be like, “I’m sorry, I need to grab something from the garage quick,” or “I just need to do this.” And there was one time when I came home from work and there were flowers on my table. I had this eerie feeling of oh my gosh, he was in my home. And like he’s trying to do this supposedly sweet thing for me. But I am terrified. After we separated, I was just looking for all the abuse resources out there. When I found the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, I remember feeling very seen. There was an episode where another woman who married a couple of times. I thought, wow, this is not just me. I held a lot of shame around the fact that I didn’t learn the first time. ## HE MADE SURE HE LOOKED GOOD ON PAPER **Sarita:** I felt discredited for a long time. is the common denominator, she must be the problem. And that’s of course what many people think. They have no idea. When I found your podcast, I just remember listening to that episode and being like, holy crap. Finally, someone else gets it. I loved that episode, and it was comforting to know you are not the only one. So if you’re listening to this and have been in an abusive marriage, or an abusive relationship, I would say look at your own story. You’ll see a lot more clearly. You won’t have as much cognitive dissonance where his actions show you the complete opposite. He was on this whole, “I’m changing, I promise.” And he purchased this $5,000 course for men who try to change. He was making sure that it looked really good on paper. So he knows that one of my dreams one day is to have a huge ranch and have all these horses. So he’s like, “Honey, like I’m gonna work so hard so that you can have this dream.” He was just giving me this elaborate, “You deserve this. I wanna provide this for you, give this to you.” **Sarita:** Listening to your podcast, I was heavily on abuse. I totally knew. You’re not actually changing. But I remember in the moment I was like, he is love bombing me. He was future faking me. This is all fake. I was able to see clearly. I totally knew. You are doing this so that you can tell everyone else, “I tried, look at all along the things I did. I spent thousands of dollars and I put in so much work going to therapy.” I started to put up a lot of clear boundaries with him. ## HOW EDUCATION ABOUT ABUSE SUCCEEDED WHERE MARRIAGE INFIDELITY COUNSELING FAILED **Sarita:** He ended up signing away his rights during divorce. Because he kept pushing the whole, “Well, it’s not mine.” He already had it in his mind that I was this whore. **Anne:** Well, or he is just lying and saying that to blame you as a tactic, that’s probably more what it was. **Sarita:** I battled with. I don’t want all these people thinking I was messing around. But simultaneously, I also knew he’s probably already telling people that anyway. So like at this point, I might as well agree with him that this isn’t his baby and just move on. And my lawyer even said that because he could easily ask the judge for a paternity test, and the judge would grant it to him. So he’s not even putting in the effort or fight to make sure this is his child. Which my lawyer was like, “This tells me that he knows that it is. He just doesn’t want it to be.” And I knew that too. You could put a little skin in the game of trying to get the paternity test. To ensure this is your kid, because he did the same thing with his last child. He put in no effort whatsoever. **Anne:** But also, that benefited you. You don’t want them to put in the effort of marriage infidelity counseling. **Sarita:** And I knew he wouldn’t. He didn’t take responsibility for his first son, so why would he take responsibility now? And my lawyer was like, look, I’ve worked with countless abuse victims. And he was like, if he doesn’t think he’s the father, let’s just let him think that. **Anne:** Right, yeah, exactly. ## AGREEING HE’S NOT THE FATHER **Sarita:** He reached out again to my lawyer and was like, “Are you sure she’s not willing to do a paternity test?” And my lawyer said, “No, she’s not willing.” So he said, ” Well, that’s really unfortunate, but I guess, I’m just gonna have to assume that I’m not the father.” And so my lawyer said to him, “Okay, we will agree with you that you are not the father of this child.” So then he signed the non-parentage statement. **Anne:** Oh, wow. **Sarita:** Yeah, he’s a ghost. The biggest thing with abuse and the hardest thing about it after my first marriage is that I wish I had found your podcast. I don’t think I would’ve found myself in another abusive marriage, because I think I would’ve seen it much more clearly. **Anne:** Well, thank you Sarita, I appreciate you coming on the podcast. Thank you so much for sharing your story and your bravery and sharing your strength with other women. **Sarita:** Yeah, Thank you so much. I appreciated it. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [7 Ways to Make Co-Parenting With a Narcissist Tolerable](https://www.btr.org/co-parenting-with-a-narcissistic-parent/) **Published:** December 16, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** If your ex-husband is a narcissist, interactions are likely impossible. Here are 7 ways to handle his chaos. **Content:** Co-parenting with a narcissist seems impossible. I know I’ve been there. If your husband or ex is narcissistic, here are 7 ways your he might try to undermine you and your kids, along with 7 ways to overcome it. To find out how bad it is, see which of the 19 different emotional abuse tactics he uses. Take our [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ## THE 7 WAYS A NARCISSIST WILL UNDERMINE CO-PARENTING - Gaslighting: Narcissistic men are good at making you doubt yourself. They might say you’re overreacting when you’re not. They may say your helicopter parenting when you’re not. Be on the lookout for how he tries to undermine your self confidence. - Using The Kids To Hurt You: A narcissistic ex may manipulate the kids to hurt you. Or they may want to go into chaos, and so they undermine the children’s medical care, extra curricular activities, or school work. - Playing the victim: Narcissistic men might twist things to make themselves look like the victim. They may exaggerate situations to get sympathy from others and make you seem like the bad one. - Undermining your authority: They might try to take control by making decisions without asking you. Or tell your children that you’re not smart or not a good parent. - Using money as leverage: A narcissistic ex could use money to control you by withholding child support or making unfair demands. - Seeking revenge: Narcissistic men may hold grudges and act out of spite. - Lack of empathy: A narcissistic husband or ex won’t understand or care about your feelings. This will make co-parenting with a narcissistic parent really hard. ## HOW TO STAY SANE WHEN CO-PARENTING WITH A NARCISSISTIC PARENT Co-parenting with a narcissistic parent requires a strategic and mindful approach. Here are seven ways to make the process more tolerable: ### 1. KNOW COMMUNICATION WON’T HELP WHEN CO-PARENTING WITH A NARCISSIST Since communication is just another way for the narcissist to manipulate us, at Betrayal Trauma Recovery we’ve learned that we can’t count on communication to resolve anything. It helps when you know that communication won’t do anything to stop him from causing chaos. Instead, use effective boundaries that don’t need to be “communicated”, like the ones we teach in [The Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). ### 2. LEARN ABOUT STRATEGIC BOUNDARIES To learn how to set boundaries strategically, consider enrolling in [The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). “I’d been to so many therapists. They just kept telling me to “set boundaries”. What a joke. It never worked. But then I enrolled in The Living Free Workshop at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, and holy cow do these ladies know what they’re doing. I could tell immediately they’d been through it. And figured out safety from these dudes. Thanks so much BTR!!!” ### 3. USE A PARENTING APP WHEN CO-PARENTING WITH A NARCISSIST Parenting apps can help, because everything is documented. There are calendars and info banks to use to limit communication as much as possible. ### 4. HOW DO YOU CO-PARENT WITH A NARCISSIST WHEN HE UNDERMINES EVERYTHING? PRIORITIZE SELF-CARE Taking care of your own physical and emotional well-being is crucial when co-parenting with a narcissistic parent. Engage in activities that bring you joy and relaxation, and seek support from friends, family, or [an online support group for women.](https://www.btr.org/group/) ### 5. FOCUS ON YOUR CHILDREN’S WELL-BEING Keep your focus on what’s best for your children. Avoid hurting your children by promoting their narcissistic dad’s behavior as “love”. Instead, say, “I’m so sorry. I felt that way too. He hurt me too. I’m sorry he doesn’t seem capable enough to love someone as lovable as you.” ### 6. DEVELOP A SUPPORT NETWORK Surround yourself with a supportive network of friends, family, and professionals who understand your situation and can offer guidance and encouragement. [If you need support, here’s our daily group session schedule.](https://www.btr.org/group/) ### 7. WHEN CO-PARENTING WITH A NARCISSISTIC PARENT, STAY INFORMED Educate yourself about narcissistic behavior and its impact on co-parenting. [Listen to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to hear other women’s stories and how they coped](https://www.btr.org/podcast/). ## TRANSCRIPT: 7 WAYS TO MAKE CO-PARENTING WITH A NARCISSIST TOLERABLE **Anne:** Tammy Guns is here today. She’s going to share her story. She started her career in auditing and accounting for two big four public accounting firms. Then she served in leadership roles in large scale healthcare organizations before her career as a certified divorce financial analyst. Her expertise extends beyond the advisory realm as a trusted expert witness in courtrooms, offering invaluable insights, utilizing forensic accounting. She has also served on two boards of directors and completed Deloitte’s certification program for women board readiness. We will talk about co-parenting with a narcissist. Welcome, Tammy. **Tammy:** Thank you for having me. I’m excited to talk with you today. **Anne:** You mentioned that your personal story is part of what interested you in becoming a certified divorce financial analyst. So can we start there? **Tammy:** Yes, well, you can only connect the dots backwards. And when I look back to my dating of him. There were so many signs that showed he was a narcissist, but I was so young. My wonderful father was incredibly involved in our lives. I’m one of four children. When I met my ex husband, I did not believe a man could not be a good husband and a good father, because I had such an amazing example of one. I was right out of college when I met him. I was just captured. He’s good looking, charismatic. He’s super intelligent. He was a football player in college. I’m like, of course, he’ll be a good dad, of course he’ll be a good husband, because that’s what I had as an example, and I was looking for all the wrong things. ![](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/co-parent-with-a-narcissistic-parent.webp "Co Parent with a Narcissistic Parent")## “I COULDN’T HAVE KNOWN”: WHAT I WISH I KNEW BEFORE CO-PARENTING WITH A NARCISSISTIC PARENT **Tammy:** Today, I’d have a phone conversation with him and realize absolutely what a narcissist he is. And co-parenting with a narcissist can feel impossible. **Anne:** Well, we don’t know. It’s not our fault. I think even if you learned about narcissism, until the mask comes off, you still wouldn’t know that they were a narcissist. We don’t even have the context for it. You might see the red flags. But because of your context, you think, oh, he’s tired or stressed out. So to say, people saw red flags and then ignored them. I would say people saw the red flags, and the context they had for them was not that context. **Anne:** Knowing what you know now, what would you do differently? It’s like, would you do anything different? When you knew what you knew then. And the answer is always I couldn’t do anything different. **Tammy:** Correct, I couldn’t. So I was married for about 17 years when my then husband came home and basically said to me, “I’m done being married to you. I know how much you love the children, so you can have them.” It was pretty traumatic to have the rug pulled out from underneath me. So I ended up going on the journey of a divorce, certainly not understanding anything that was going to happen. In today’s environment, it’s more of a 50/50 situation. But, I went from being a stay at home mom to going back into the workforce, as well as having the children a hundred percent by myself. I do have four college degrees, so I was in the workforce for a while, but at the time I was a stay at home mother. ## HE DIDN’T WANT TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CHILDREN, BUT HE STILL WANTED CONTROL **Anne:** Wow, that is very unique. I don’t hear that every day, where you got them 100 percent of the time. So many women, at least who listen to this podcast or who are co-parenting with a narcissist, are fighting these narcissists or abusers in court for years. So that is like a miracle. Was that happening with many people back then? **Tammy:** Even back then, dads had the kiddos every other weekend, probably one night during the week for dinner, like a Wednesday night. What happened in my particular situation is that my ex went through a midlife crisis. He started dating a 25 year old girl who reported directly to him at work. His midlife crisis was, not only do I not want to be married, I also don’t want the responsibility of caring for children. He wanted to travel the world with her, do all sorts of fun things, and of course children get in the way. At the time, I was incredibly scared. How will I take care of these children full time, as well as work full time? But as you said, Anne, in hindsight, it was the greatest blessing that could ever happen. That way I did have the children by myself as far as not co-parenting with a narcissistic parent. I spent 10 years in court with him, but it wasn’t over the time with the children. It was a matter of him actually paying me. Our ink was not even dry on our divorce decree, and he was already not paying me spousal support, not paying me child support, et cetera, et cetera. ## HINDSIGHT: UNRECOGNIZED SIGNS OF NARCISSISM **Tammy:** So I was unfortunately wrapped up in the court system for a very long period of time. Until my youngest child went off to college, but I never had to fight him for time. Like I said, I feel fortunate. **Anne:** How did you know that he was a narcissist? **Tammy:** He told me, on our wedding night, I will not fail. I do not fail at anything. And so I believed our marriage was for the rest of our lives. I didn’t think he would want to be divorced, because that would be a “failure”. Of course, everything’s crystal clear in hindsight. But certainly not when that’s happening. I looked up a lot about narcissists. He meets the Mayo Clinic definition of a narcissist, like every point. He lacks empathy. I know that many times people throw the word narcissist around loosely. And that could be just somebody who’s self-absorbed, but he actually meets the Mayo Clinic definition. He didn’t physically abuse. However, emotional abuse has lasting scars. **Anne:** And talking about emotional and psychological abuse, which the court doesn’t recognize. And so there’s no way to protect your kids through the courts, because of the current climate of not recognizing it. And so that’s why we have a workshop that teaches women how to strategically face co-parenting with a narcissistic ex. So let’s talk about court and the problems that happened in court regarding the payment. Even though you had children a hundred percent of the time. And my guess is you had a ton of proof. ## WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT FAMILY COURT WHEN CO-PARENTING WITH A NARCISSISTIC EX **Tammy:** First of all, depending on what state you are in, you may or may not have a dedicated family court system. Now, why is that important? In my particular case, there was no dedicated family court. So therefore, you would have judges just rolling off the criminal bench. And now they’re like, Oh, hello, I’m in the courtroom. And now let’s talk about family law. My ex was a chief financial officer, a very good looking man, very articulate. Who would be able to go into court and look the part and talk the part. And he was able to twist all sorts of things so that the judge would actually have some compassion for him, and why he was not paying his child support payments or behind, in paying his spousal support payments. And in the judge’s eyes, you can imagine, right? They’re just coming off the criminal court system, where there are many very dark things that happen. So then when you’re just looking at someone, Oh, you’re behind on your child support payments, and here’s the reason for it: they have a level of compassion that they should not have. And the courts are very clunky. He wasn’t paying. So now I’m financially feeling that impact of not having that income. And now you’ve got increased expenses, because now your attorney says, I need another $5,000. I need another $10, 000. And they want their payment right away, or they’re not going to work for you. So now your expenses are increasing at a time your revenue or your income is decreasing. ## PLAYING KEEP AWAY WITH COURT DATES **Tammy:** And it’s not like you’re going to get an answer in five minutes. You might file something with the courts, and they might not hear it for months. And then just as it’s coming up, and he did this to me a lot, and actually because I had the children a hundred percent of the time, I moved states for my career. And even though the children and I lived in Colorado. I always had to catch a plane to go back to where he was domiciled, to go to court. It’s so frustrating. I had paid for my plane ticket. I had my attorney completely prepped for the hearing, so you paid all that attorney preparation time. I’m paying for the hotel room, and I’d get a call at 10:00 o’clock at night from my attorney. Oh, by the way, they’re continuing the hearing. A narcissistic parent will do that on purpose. A narcissist is going to do that in order to mess with you. If they really had a good reason to continue in the hearing, they would have done it before I ever got on that plane. So that was just another tactic to interfere with my life. This would just go on and on. One of my hearings took over two years for them to consider child support. So people should understand. It’s not like, yay, I get my day in court. No, even when you have your day in court, the ruling, I’ve been on cases that I’ve testified, and the ruling doesn’t come until a year later. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## NO MATTER WHAT YOUR ATTORNEY OR THE LAW SAYS, A NARCISSISTIC CO-PARENT DOESN’T PLAY BY THE RULES **Anne:** It seems to always benefit the abuser and never the victim, just in general. If you want a rule, which there are no rules, right? Because it can go any way, but the likelihood of it benefiting the abuser is much higher than the likelihood of it benefiting the victim. **Tammy:** Absolutely. **Anne:** That’s the scary part. And I think the other issue is enforcement, because no matter what the ruling says, when you’re co-parenting with a narcissistic parent, enforcing it will be another part of the problem. **Tammy:** I’m on the case right now, where one party should pay my fees, as well as my client’s attorney fees. Now, there’s even a ruling that says that has to happen. I still haven’t received my payment. So I know exactly what you’re saying happens. The cases that end up in court and end up in court for years, always one of the parties is a narcissist. Because no one else wants to spend that kind of energy, time, and resources. In fact, my attorney would always say it’s cheaper for him to pay you than to pay his attorney and get the ruling, because the rulings would go in my favor, but it’s a year and a half later or two years later. So in the meantime, I’m struggling. So it is absolutely an abuse tactic. And I said to my attorney, I don’t think you understand. ## PLAYING “THEIR GAME”: CO-PARENTING WITH A NARCISSISTIC PARENT **Tammy:** This is not a matter of it’s less expensive for him to pay me outright. This is a game. I promise you that when you’re co-parenting with a narcissist, this is a game. **Anne:** It’s a power play, and they like it. They’re the opposite of normal people, who think that chaos and spending money to hurt people is not enjoyable. There’ve been times where he comes into court so happy. And that always surprises me. It shouldn’t, but it’s really interesting to me. The victim is so overwhelmed. Not necessarily disheveled, because women can show up well put together. So that’s not what I’m saying, but she’s clearly not enjoying this. And he is enjoying it. What are your thoughts about why these types of abusers enjoy it? Especially after your own personal experience? **Tammy:** Having experienced it myself, I promise you the abuser walks in almost like a saunter. It’s interesting to see it. I’ve seen the narcissist put their arm around the back of the chair of their attorney, and they sit back and are absolutely at ease. And of course, this guy says he has no money, but here’s evidence he actually does. Yeah, it’s a game, and it’s a way to still exert control. Because in a relationship when you’re still together, whether dating or married. There’s a level of control that happens. And I remember my attorney said to me the day we actually officially divorced, “I’m worried about you.” [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## GETTING A WARNING FROM MY ATTORNEY **Tammy:** And I said, “Why would you be worried about me? He’s never hit me. He’s never done anything physical to me.” He said, “I’m telling you right now, he no longer has control over you, and he will seek it in some manner.” And that’s what he did. So instead of being able to abuse me emotionally in our home every day, the only way to exert control and abuse over me was through the court system. And he used it. It truly is a weaponization of the court system. **Anne:** Yeah, it’s legal abuse that the legal system is willingly and actively participating in. Now, does that mean I think they are knowingly doing that? No, I don’t think the judges are like, I know he’s abusive, and that’s fine. But they are making the abuse worse for the victims, and it’s unfortunate they’re not aware of that. They become extensions of the abuse in some way. **Tammy:** They do. And these judges have many cases on their docket. People have their “right” to their day in court. So when you file a petition, when you file motions, you have a right to that. Yes, the abusers know that. A lot of times I’ve seen cases where people are behind in paying their child support payments. All of a sudden, the day before court, like I’ve seen cases where people are behind over $100,000 in paying child support. And then the day before court to compel them to pay, they might pay like $30, 000. And so then you’re like, Oh, okay, well they made an effort. So it absolutely is a system where the narcissist can continue to abuse victims who are co-parenting. ## CAUGHT BETWEEN A ROCK AND A HARD PLACE: PRESSURE TO SETTLE WHEN CO-PARENTING WITH A NARCISSIST IN COURT **Anne:** Can we talk about what I would like to deem as unethical pressure? A victim’s attorney will put on her to settle, which might be in her best interest, rather than spending another $150, 000 going to court in attorney fees. This happened with me, and I am still upset about it. We didn’t even present anything to the court. Like a motion or even a defense or anything. And my attorney said, “That will cost you $150, 000 in attorney fees. So why don’t we just shut this down now and only pay $40, 000 in attorney fees? In the process, I got zero things that I wanted, like literally zero. So the only thing I paid the attorney fees for was to basically wrap up the case. So I didn’t have something in court happening. I knew I had all the proof on my side, but it was too expensive for me to do it. And the attorneys knew it. Lose, because even if I won, I was still out $150, 000 that I did not have. So can you talk about that rock and a hard place that victims are in, and how their attorneys end up traumatizing women in this process? **Tammy:** You’re absolutely correct. This is the dilemma that happens. The fact that an attorney will sit down with their client and say, “Listen, we’re going to go to court and we’re going to lose on things.” ## WINNING IN COURT OF APPEALS, BUT LOSING ANYWAY **Tammy:** We’ll go to court, and we’ll win on things that you thought there’s no way we’ll win. It’s hard to tell what could happen in a case with a with a narcissist. Certainly you have prior case history, but the courts are always evolving. And so it’s never a hundred percent sure. That’s why in my particular situation, we even went to the court of appeals, because the lower court judge who had rolled off the criminal bench didn’t understand family law, and actually made an error in the ruling. And so that was an additional expense. Now I’m fortunate, this is not the case most of the time. My attorney firm believed so strongly that the judge had made a mistake. They said, “We’re going to fund most of this.” Cause it was tens of thousands of dollars, and they wanted it because it was prestigious, and for their law firm to go before the court of appeals and actually win. And we did win in the court of appeals. But again, now you’re talking about another year. Had, I had to make that decision myself and foot the entire bill. There’s no way. I would have had to live with the judges error in the ruling. But even though the attorney firm I worked with was willing to do that, it was remanded to the lower court. And let me tell you, it can really annoy the judge that now you appealed them and you have to continue to be in front of that judge. They can retaliate against you in their rulings. And so even though I won in the court of appeals, in reality, I did not. ## WHY IS THE LAW SO UNPREDICTABLE WHEN CO-PARENTING WITH A NARCISSIST? **Anne:** Can you talk about why the law is so unpredictable? **Tammy:** Back when I divorced, there weren’t a lot of statutes, and that was back when whoever had the bigger, better hired gun would win in the court system. Now, I will say the courts have improved on some level in that there are far more statutes that they follow. So it is better, but it’s still not where it needs to be. Case law can affect things. Back when I got divorced, if you got divorced with the exact same case facts in a different county or in front of a different judge, you could get an entirely different ruling. It’s just that it’s a very old, archaic system that has a lot of things that need improvement. Because, like I said, the landscape is they really want 50/50 parenting. **Anne:** Yeah, in Utah, we just passed Om’s Law, which is similar to Caden’s law. Are you aware of that law? **Tammy:** I don’t think I am. **Anne:** Where are you? **Tammy:** I’m in Colorado. **Anne:** So you guys passed it too. **Tammy:** Okay. **Anne:** It made reunification therapy illegal. And the reason why is because abusers and narcissistic co parents are using it. I mean, it’s just an abuser tactic. So, now they’ve just renamed it a different name, and they still do it. There’s no way to stop them, because now it has a different name, and they’re still court ordering it. Even though it’s against the law, and also against the law in Colorado. ## PASSING LAWS TO PROTECT CHILDREN **Anne:** We try to run it here about emotional and psychological abuse. Because at least two cases were here, and you had one recently, someone who was never physically abusive, ever, then murdered people. Yours was with the dentist who murdered his wife. It is called Caden’s Law in Colorado, and it was passed in 2023. It protects children from abuse in custody cases. And this would be at play with the money situation if he gets less custody. Because then he would need to pay more, and I feel like there’s two things happening with abusers. There’s just the control, they like the control. But the second part is that they want the most custody to pay the least amount of child support. And so the kids get to their house, and they neglect them at their home. They don’t think, “Wait, I’m going to have to actually do something with these children.” **Tammy:** Absolutely. **Anne:** They just want to have the most amount of parent time possible, because all they see is the paycheck to their ex. And a narcissist would rather make their kids miserable at their house, neglecting them, than pay their ex any child support. **Tammy:** Absolutely, because the child support formula, at least in Colorado, is based on the income of mom, income of dad, who pays the health insurance, because that ends up getting split. And so if one person pays it, that’s factored into the child support calculation. And then obviously time with mom and with dad. ## TIME IS MONEY WHEN CO-PARENTING WITH A NARCISSIST **Tammy:** Yes, more time if it’s a 50/50 split. Child support ends up being pretty low actually here in the state of Colorado. Whereas, if mom has predominantly far more time, the child support calculation certainly increases considerably. And when the children are with dad, homework isn’t done. Or they get dropped off at school late, you know, things like that. **Anne:** We don’t recommend trying to get a parenting coordinator or custody evaluator when co-parenting with a narcissist, because that’s another avenue for him to abuse her. So if he messages her, and she won’t do what he wants, because the parenting plan says no, right? You’re supposed to pick up on Wednesdays, and he’s like, no, I want to pick up on Thursdays. Then he can go through the parenting coordinator, and the parenting coordinator will make her do it. That’s why we’re like, don’t even use a parenting coordinator. We do not recommend it at all. So one of the things that I’ve often either asked women that I talked to, or I’ve thought myself, is, “If you were a billionaire, would you want to remain married to this person?” Pretty much everyone I’ve asked says, “No, I wouldn’t. Because I want to continue being a stay at home mom.” Or “Because I want to continue to homeschool.” I’m not a homeschooler, but other women have wanted to do that. Their life is drastically changing in a way they can’t control. And so finances are such an important piece of that puzzle. ## FINANCIAL STRANGULATION: WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW AND HOW TO BE STRATEGIC **Tammy:** Absolutely, it’s incredibly frustrating, because what can happen in a divorce with a narcissist is what’s called financial strangulation. And the other side can do that, especially if you have a working spouse, and then the other is a stay at home spouse. And so they’ll cut off bank accounts or credit cards. So it can cut off people’s access to cash or the ability to leave the situation. Here I have four college degrees, but at the time I divorced, I was a stay at home mom because we supported his career to advance. And it helped him. It didn’t help me personally. And then I had to raise my children a hundred percent, but also get back into the workforce. And it’s very scary. **Anne:** I recently saw two cases where the ex was extremely wealthy. When I say extreme, I mean extreme. The women ended up with hardly anything, because he shut down bank accounts or moved money around, spent a lot of money, or ended up scaring her so badly that she did not get what she was entitled to. And the lawyers in her case were like, do you want to spend four more or five more years? I think there’s a disconnect between what you’re legally entitled to, like this is the law. And then actually spending the money to get it, and there’s no way around that. That’s what our [Living Free strategies](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) are about in our workshop that teaches women. This is strategically how to deal with them. ## DEALING WITH FINANCIAL CONTROL **Anne:** And it might mean that you leave a bunch of money that you’re entitled to on the table. So that he doesn’t abuse you anymore. **Tammy:** Exactly what you’re saying. If one person has control over the credit cards, has control over bank accounts, take out a credit card right now in your name only. You can use the household income. So you can get a higher credit limit. Financial strangulation is a real thing. Because to have an attorney represent you, you have to pay the attorney, and to pay your bills, you have to have financial resources. Like you’re saying. Women say, “I don’t even qualify for rent. No one will rent to me because I don’t have a credit score history.” Some landlords want the full lump sum right away, and people don’t have financial resources to do that. It’s rare that people have financial resources, because like you’re saying, most people are just getting by. **Anne:** In a defense case, like if you’re charged with a crime, you at least get the public defender, but there is no version of a public defender in divorce. **Tammy:** What’s supposed to happen is that once a petition for dissolution has been filed, everything has to be status quo. So you’re not allowed to change beneficiaries. You’re not allowed to drop people from health insurance policies. You’re not allowed to do all these things. But abusers will do that. And do you have the ability to say they were wrong? Yeah, but it requires financial resources to pay the attorney to get in front of the judge. ## CO-PARENTING WITH A NARCISSIST: WHAT TO DO WHEN HE ISN’T FOLLOWING THE LAW AND YOU CAN’T AFFORD A FIGHT **Anne:** And think that’s the main problem that I see repeatedly with attorneys is they’ll tell the victims, well, this is the law. He can’t do that. I think the court isn’t recognizing that he IS doing it. I remember my attorney saying, “Once this is signed” and I’m just laughing now. “You don’t need to worry, because this is what the parenting plan says.” And I was like, “The second I sign it and he signs it, the case is over. But I can literally scrunch it up and throw it in the garbage can because he’s not going to follow it.” **Tammy:** Correct, a narcissistic parent, doesn’t follow it. Even when I went through my divorce, he tried to have a good appearance in front of the kids. He would say, “I’m going to pick up the kids at five o’clock for dinner.” So I would make plans to go out with girlfriends, or maybe go on a date, and lo and behold, it’s eight o’clock and he still hasn’t picked them up. He might keep them overnight on a Friday night and he would say, ” They’re sick.” And I’m like, “It’s Saturday.” He goes, “I don’t know who their pediatrician is. I don’t know who to call.” So, back to the beginning of our conversation. I was fortunate that I had the kids a hundred percent of the time. Because had they been with their dad, they would have missed a lot of things. He didn’t know who their pediatrician was. ## HE PURPOSELY CREATES EXHAUSTION **Tammy:** And it actually would have been for me personally, not even the children. I know I would have gone through him not picking up the kids when he said he was or not dropping them off. In fact, when I moved states for a job, he had the children that day. And he knew I had to get on the road at a decent hour. Our exchange time was 5 o’clock, because I had many hours to go before I could get to a hotel. He didn’t bring the kids back that night until 11 o’clock, and I had to get on the road that late. What are you going to do? How litigate that in court? You know, that was just another way to exhaust me, which is terrible, right? He purposely kept the kids until 11 o’clock that night. I was exhausted. So, I know that I was fortunate that I got my children 100 percent of the time. Because I would have had that day in and day out, that type of abusive situation of not following the parenting plan at all. **Anne:** So it’s hard to be like the parenting plan will help, or in my own personal case, my attorney would say, “Did you see the draft, was it okay?” And I was like, “I’ll just sign anything. I don’t even care what it says, because it does not matter.” **Tammy:** Because you know who that person is. There’s got to be more education within the court system. ## WHY HAVING A STRATEGY FOR CO-PARENTING WITH A NARCISSISTIC PARENT IS SO IMPORTANT **Tammy:** I remember going to a therapist who specialized in narcissists right after I divorced, because I was quite broken emotionally. I remember the therapist saying to me, “You know, that tool belt you have to interact with other people? You need to take that off and set it aside, because it doesn’t apply with a narcissist.” I remember almost having this sigh of relief hearing those words, to know that there was someone who absolutely understood what I was going through. Because you can’t explain, like other people, even my girlfriends, who I love dearly, they would say, “Why does he do that? Why can’t the court see what he is doing?” And I would say, “Here’s the thing, you’re trying to use that tool belt of normal conflict management or normal personal interaction, but that tool belt does not apply with a narcissist. You have to take that off and throw it away because we are talking about an entire new set of circumstances. And they don’t play by the rules. It’s all playing to win. It’s a game.” And it’s sad. I actually believe, this is in hindsight, that my ex husband saw my goodness, and he saw my light, and he wanted what I have. He wanted my view of the world. And so because he couldn’t have it, he was going to make sure I was just beat down to the ground. ## HE USES LEGAL ABUSE **Tammy:** Unfortunately, it took until my daughter turned 18 before I finally could have a life where I could live without him in it. In the court system, you’re tied to them until they’re 18 years old. And so he could use the courts to abuse me up until that time. Just like you’re saying, they view the courts as an extension of a way to abuse you. At the time, I looked at it as, I’m doing this on behalf of my children. My children have a right to this money. I took him to court to get him to pay, but he always took me to court to reduce my child support. A narcissistic parent is going to lie. And a lot of them are quite successful individuals. My ex was a chief financial officer, because they can use their charisma to move up the corporate ladder to be business owners. I had one case where, “Oh, I make $80, 000 a year.” And I told the judge, “No, he makes $480, 000 a year.” The judge absolutely took my report in its entirety. During COVID, where people got those PPP loans, that was a huge abuse in the court system. Because these business owners, maybe their revenue had gone down. But now their employee expenses were zero, because the government through the PPP loan paid for that, but they still got to deduct those expenses. ## THE COURT SYSTEM IS A GAUNTLET OF PAIN **Tammy:** So these narcissists ran to court, and told the judge, stop my child support. Look, my business is in the red. In reality, it wasn’t. Their revenue was down, but their expenses were zero. You have to be careful of these people who run to the court seeking relief from their child support payments. In reality, they were doing just fine financially because of these loans. And I know the shortcomings of the court system. **Anne:** The court system is this gauntlet of pain. **Tammy:** If you’re going into a court system and thinking it’s going to solve your problems, it’s not. Are there glimmers of hope and are there things that can happen? Yes, you’ve got this legal system, but then you’ve got the emotional situation you’re going through And certainly there’s a financial situation. You have to have a multi-pronged approach to resolve it. And that’s why, the beauty of you offering a course to women to help heal them and give them tools in other avenues to deal with this narcissist. Even recently, I saw my ex husband, because my oldest daughter, my middle child, just got married. You’ll continue to see them at birthdays, graduations, weddings. ## THE COURT SYSTEM IS NOT GOING TO SOLVE YOUR PROBLEMS WITH A NARCISSISTIC PARENT: BUILD A SUPPORT SYSTEM **Tammy:** The tools that you offer in order to be able to deal with them, they’re invaluable going forward. You can get to the other side, but you need an incredible support system. You cannot do this alone. I would always say to my girlfriends, I swear I’d be six feet under if it weren’t for them. Because they were the ones that saw my beauty. They were the ones who saw my strength. They were the ones that were my greatest cheerleaders, who said, “Get up, dust yourself off. You can do this another day.” So I really believe having an effective support in place was key for me to be able to get to the other side of this. I could never get to the other side alone. **Anne:** Going through the court in some way or another, you’ll have to have a legal document that you sign to be divorced. **Tammy:** Correct. **Anne:** There’s no way around it. Now, the way I got my kids completely free of my ex, we didn’t go to court, but he signed a legal document. So, I’m not saying that will work for everyone, there’s no guarantees. But, there’s no way around the legal ramifications and some type of legal process. And, you can do a DIY. You can have a BTR coach help you. You can hire an attorney. There are multiple avenues to do this, but you have to do it. ## THERE’S NO WAY AROUND IT: YOU NEED A GOOD TEAM AND A GOOD STRATEGY **Anne:** And so, no matter how terrible it is, or miserable or hopeless, having the right team a trauma informed divorce coach like we have here. We mostly deal with things like strategy and emotions. How to keep yourself centered, thought strategies that you can use so that you can actually function. I think the hopeful part is that this is one of the hardest things you’ve ever done. You can get through it, you will survive co-parenting with a narcissist. There is a light at the end of the tunnel, and our team will be there for you. No matter what the outcome is, you will survive and your kids will be okay. I think that’s what I’m trying to land on. For all of us who have been through it, and we’re looking back. We know that will happen, but it’s very hard to feel that when you’re going through it. **Tammy:** It is. There’s no other way, especially when you have children, because the courts require you to have the parenting plans and whatnot. But there is light at that other side, but you must walk through this process. And that’s why, just as you stated, it’s important that professionals are in place. Who will help you on several fronts to navigate this environment, legally, as well as personally, emotionally, spiritually, all of that. The more of a support system you can have in place, the better chance of your success. **Anne:** Well, thank you so much, Tammy, for spending time to talk with us today. I appreciate you. **Tammy:** I have enjoyed my time with you. Thank you so much for having me on your show. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Husband Is Ignoring Me? 3 Shocking Truths You Need Now - Mary's Story](https://www.btr.org/husband-is-ignoring-me/) **Published:** December 23, 2025 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Silence can be its own form of punishment, leaving you desperate to fix things. Here's what to know. **Content:** Have you caught yourself thinking, *my husband is ignoring me* and feeling that knot in your stomach when the silence drags on? You’re not making it up. Silence can be its own form of punishment, leaving you anxious, second-guessing, and desperate to fix things. In today’s episode, Mary shares how her husband used ignoring as a weapon, vanishing for weeks, shutting her out after their honeymoon, and withholding attention to stay in control. If you’ve felt the sting of silence, this conversation will help you see what’s really going on.To see what types of emotional abuse you also experienced, take our [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ## 3 REASONS WHY TRYING TO CONNECT WITH YOUR HUSBAND IF HE’S IGNORING YOU DOESN’T WORK ## 1. SILENCE ISN’T A MISUNDERSTANDING. IT’S A TACTIC. When he withholds attention, it’s not an accident. Ignoring someone is often used to punish or control someone. ## 2. VULNERABILITY GIVES HIM NEW TOOLS TO USE AGAINST YOU. If advise you to open up more to him to try to get him to talk, that’s going to put you in more emotional danger. ## 3. YOUR CONNECTION CAN’T SOLVE HIS ACCOUNTABILITY PROBLEM. No amount of extra effort, patience, tenderness on your part is going to solve his accountability problem. There’s nothing you can do to undo the choices he’s making. If he’s ignoring you, that’s entirely his problem. At BTR, we know how long, lonely, and painful the road to healing can be. Don’t travel this road alone. Attend a [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session](https://www.btr.org/group/) TODAY. ## TRANSCRIPT: MY HUSBAND IS IGNORING ME **Anne:** I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Mary. A large part of her story is that her husband ignored her, and I know a lot of you are dealing with that. A lot of times we feel like we need to repair something. If someone ignores us because they’re upset with us. Here’s a part of Mary’s story, and you’ll hear the context of what happened around this a bit later. **Mary:** I thought, why is my husband ignoring me? I didn’t know what was going on, and I spent the whole time crying in another room. Thinking, this is tragic. I thought our marriage would be something kind and loving, but it wasn’t. **Anne:** So Mary, I’m so sorry that ignoring you was such a big part of your story. Welcome. **Mary:** Hi, Thanks for having me. **Anne:** I’m so honored and grateful that you would share your story. So let’s start at the beginning. **Mary:** I met my now ex-husband of 10 years at church. He was so godly. He was very exciting, had amazing stories. And he had this great contagious laugh. He was great around people, or so I thought.He is just checking all the boxes. Eventually, we started dating. In this church culture, there were many rules around intimacy. No sex before marriage. You could maybe hold hands, go on your date once a week, very structured and not very natural. **Anne:** How old were you at the time? **Mary:** I had just finished my master’s, so I was 26 or 27. We dated for one year, and on the anniversary of that year, he proposed. ## DATING RED FLAGS: WHY MY HUSBAND IGNORING ME ISN’T JUST STRESS **Mary:** But during the dating relationship, there were so many red flags that I didn’t know were red flags. I had no context for that. It was easy to make excuses, because he’s this great guy, spiritual, loving, thoughtful, serves at the church and always takes care of other people. And I didn’t know that was just a facade. During that time, a lot of strange things would happen. I remember one time he just disappeared for a couple weeks. I was wrought with anxiety and worry, and I had no idea. Nobody had heard from him. We were in this tight-knit community. Everybody knew everybody’s business. Nobody knew where he was. **Anne:** Wow, that’s like intense. **Mary:** I tried reaching out, texting, calling, there was no response. I was trying to not overdo it. I don’t know about your experience with church culture and other people’s. But for me, you had to have this kind of privacy and respect for the other person, and not overdo it. Because then you idolized them. Eventually, he sent me a picture of his face with a black eye, and tells me this outrageous story about him and his brother getting into a brawl, and somehow he was the good guy trying to help direct his life. He’s the oldest of six. They were refugees from communist Russia with this intense life. And he raised all of them, basically a parent to them.Anyway, I had had it, I had gone through all the emotions at this point. I was like, this guy doesn’t seem to care. I had gotten to a place where I was like, I’m not doing this, because I don’t wanna be involved with someone like this. ## THE MASK SLIPS: WHAT IT REALLY MEANS WHEN MY HUSBAND IS IGNORING ME **Mary:** But somehow he said all the right things and got me back in, begged me, gimme just one more chance. And I thought, I guess that’s a good sign. I didn’t know what to make of this. So [I forgave him](https://www.btr.org/the-truth-about-forgiving-abuse/), and within a month or two, he proposed. Looking back, I realized he saw how close he was to losing control of me. And so he had to do something to lock it down. I was starting to feel that church pressure of, well, you’re getting kind of old and you’re gonna have family, you’re gonna get married, you gotta do it soon. I still believed this is a good guy. He’s just having a hard time. It’s easy to excuse what we think are blips in their behavior. When I think they take a mask off for a moment. ‘Cause they’re tired of pretending. And then you see the real them, thinking it’s the other way around. **Anne:** Right, I have an interesting story I’ve never told before. I was dating a guy who was an abuser, and I didn’t know he was an abuser. And he was getting closer to maybe being serious, and suddenly, he just fell off the map, kind of what you’re saying. Couldn’t get a hold of him, like nothing. He then reached out to me and said, “I’m back. I’m ready to move forward with our relationship. I just needed some time to think about it. I need to talk to our ecclesiastical leader to clear some things up, and then we can move forward.” Like you, I was ready to move on by the time he came back. ## WHEN HE TAKES A SUDDEN BREAK IN THE RELATIONSHIP **Anne:** It was weird to me that he didn’t ask me how I was doing at all. It was like, I’m ready to move forward with you, so I’m gonna do this. And then we’ll move forward without asking me anything. So it turns out that while he was “taking that break to assess what he wanted out of his future.” He had gone and lived with a woman for three weeks and had sex with her a ton, and then realized he didn’t wanna marry her. He wanted to marry me. So our church excommunicated him. And came to me and said, “Okay, I got excommunicated, but I’m ready to move forward.” And I was like, what are you talking about? I’m never talking to you again. We’re not dating. This pattern that he thinks he can do what he wants, and that you’re not gonna notice? Because during that time when they’re gone, they don’t think about us. They’re distracted doing the thing they wanna do. They’re not thinking how it affects us. They have such a lack of understanding that we are going through something during those times. **Mary:** Yes, they are self-centered. In fact, we went to premarital counseling. The husband of the couple that was counseling us pulled me aside and in confidence said, “Hey, just so you know, while you were dating, he confessed to me about how he had gone to a bar one night and did some very questionable things with another woman. And I’m just trying to get him to confess it so that you and him both know that he did it.” I was shocked. At this point, my future husband is ignoring me and keeping secrets. **Anne:** What? ## HE DOESN’T CONFESS ANYTHING **Mary:** He never did confess it. He just acted like he had no idea. And so I thought, well, what’s the truth then? Did he actually do something? He seems innocent and has no clue. So we married. And the moment we leave the wedding reception and drive off to our honeymoon, that whole week we were gone, we fought. Oh my goodness. I didn’t even recognize this person. We slept in separate rooms. I cried every night, and when we got home from the honeymoon, he just ignored me. It was like I was invisible. I wasn’t even in the home as far as he was concerned. There was no consideration, no conversation, and I was devastated. **Anne:** Wow. **Mary:** So I am on the internet Googling annulment, and anything I can think of, what is this behavior? I don’t know why my husband is ignoring me. I couldn’t find any answers. So I finally called up his mentor in the church, one of his best friends. I just left a voicemail and said, “Hey, here’s what’s going on. I don’t know what to do. Can you talk to him?” I never heard from this friend of his, but the next day, he finally acknowledges me. He is on his knees begging me to forgive him, but I didn’t know what for. To this day, I still have no idea what he was doing for those months. **Anne:** Wow. **Mary:** The strange part is that, probably for the next two years, it was the most blissful marriage. We were partners, we talked about things, we were able to be connected. And I thought, oh, this is amazing. ## FROM BLISS TO FEAR: MY HUSBAND IS IGNORING ME AS PUNISHMENT **Mary:** And so one day, he says to me out of the blue that he’s tired of pulling the weight of this marriage. He is not doing it anymore. And that, if I want this marriage to work, I have to do all the work. I thought, when did he start feeling this way? I still don’t know what made him suddenly decide that I’m just this terrible wife. It just went on like this over the years. Every so often he would throw me these curve balls and major ones like that. He would ignore me to get what he wanted. I was working and trying to rise up in my career. And he had complete control over all my paychecks. I couldn’t touch them. Everything I had, he took. At some point, I decided I just needed a secret stash. Like I need to have a couple hundred dollars tucked away in case I need gas for the car. He caught whiff of it and became obsessed with finding it. One day I came home, and he had dumped all the contents of my closet all over the living room. He was becoming more and more unstable and erratic. And he starts, telling me, oh, you should be ashamed of yourself. At this point, I’m thinking, what am I not doing right? The whole mental load of running the home is on me. Like I do everything. And so at the time I’m just thinking, I just have to show him. I just have to work harder, be more submissive, more gentle with him. ## MY HUSBAND TERRIFIES ME **Mary:** He’s depressed, so maybe I need to make doctor’s appointments for him. As the years went by it only got worse. He prided himself on the fact that he never hit me, but he was [battering me emotionally](https://www.btr.org/emotional-battering/). He’s like, “I’ve never hurt her” whenever I would bring it up with church counseling. Things started escalating when my body could no longer tolerate this behavior. I was so stressed trying to make this work, trying to understand. We actually went to marital counseling. The very first session, he stars berating the therapist, questioning her authority. I think we went maybe twice. All it did was fan the flames of his anger. Three or four years into the marriage, we started meeting with another couple in the church that felt more like peers. Every Sunday night, we would have dinner with this family. At one point, I confided in them. Hey, there is a problem here with alcohol. He’s going through a whole bottle of liquor in 24 hours. This is scary, he’s not well. And they both say we’re not going to bring it up until you’re ready. So what happened? The very next session, the husband brings up my ex-husband’s alcohol use. And confronts him with the details no one is supposed to know. At the session with them in their home, my husband was very agreeable, humble, apologetic. “Yeah, I really need help. Thank you so much.” We get in the car to go home. My husband is upset with me for talking about him behind his back, sharing his dirty little secret. Well, he drives past our home and goes off to this dark isolated riverbank. I was terrified. ## WHEN MY HUSBAND IS IGNORING ME ESCALATES FROM SILENCE TO THREATS **Mary:** Yeah, he’s never laid a hand on me. But what if tonight’s the night? He’s so mad, and he had this evil, horrible presence. I thought he could actually kill me. It was so scary. I froze in fear. At one point, he just turned home, and I knew better than to say a word. I was just silent and hoping I wouldn’t ignite it or make it worse. That presence that I felt in him that day was terrifying. I didn’t think it could escalate, but it did. It got to where he was punishing me. Like, “You need to sit in the corner on your knees as punishment until I say.” Or he would jokingly put his hands around my neck. Really, these are veiled threats. **Anne:** Even not so veiled threats. They’re overt threats with a smile on his face. **Mary:** That’s right. It got to the point where he was leaving his handgun laying around. It would just be laying around. With the way his behavior was lining up with a gun in our house, that was scary for me. Plus, I live where I have no family. I felt isolated. I called up a friend and said, “What do I do?” And her advice was, “Why don’t you take a weekend, pack a little bag. Take some time and think it through without his presence weighing on you?” I said, “Oh, that’s a great idea.” But even then, I was so scared to leave, because what would he do if I left? So I went and stayed with some mutual friends. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## HE DESTROYS MY WEDDING DRESS & VANDALIZES MY CAR **Mary:** And I remember him calling around, threatening all of our acquaintances and friends. So people were finally starting to see some of what I was dealing with. They told me, “We can’t have you here anymore, so we will relocate you an hour away.” I had tried to go back to get more of my things. He had changed the locks on the house. So, I ended up breaking into my own home to get my things. I found my wedding dress ripped to shreds, our wedding pictures smashed all over the floor with divorce papers, his wedding ring, and the gun all piled up. **Anne:** It changed from my husband is ignoring me to fear tactics. You just said divorce papers. **Mary:** Blank divorce papers. **Anne:** So he got blank divorce papers and staged them in your house. **Mary:** Yes, as a threat, or a way to scare me. So I go onto the third location, and I’m at my friend’s house with my car. The title was in my name, as was our home. I bought one of those steering wheel clubs to lock the car. He didn’t have a key to the club, but he had a key to the car. That night, he came over to get the car, and he couldn’t take it. So he pulled out a four inch knife systematically, calmly, slashing all my tires. That was so scary, I got a restraining order. I have this restraining order, and I’m working with the elders of the church and with different mentors, peers, friends. And a lot of the advice is that you just need to focus on your own spirituality. ## CHURCH CULTURE MISSED THE DANGER, BUT GOD DIDN’T **Mary:** So I’m thinking, all I know is that I made a vow to this man before God. I couldn’t imagine standing before God, on judgment day, trying to explain myself, why did I rip up my marriage? Because I still couldn’t see that my husband is ignoring me as abuse, after all that. I spent about a year separated from him, trying to save my marriage. **Anne:** So you’re wondering why is my husband doing this, and no one you talk to is saying this is clearly abuse as well? **Mary:** Nobody spelled it out that way. **Anne:** People rarely, if ever look you straight in the face and say, you are in danger. This is abuse. **Mary:** Over the course of that year of that restraining order, there were provisions on it. He could email me about our bills, financial things we had to keep in order, and each time he as behaved more in line with what I needed, I would become more lax. At one point. I dropped it because he had started behaving so angelically. I’m so sad for myself at that point. If I had only known. But we get back together and have a child, so by then it had been eight years of marriage. And we’re living in that same home, and he still has this drinking problem. And he would just do things that were really scary. I eventually got to the point where I remember being on my knees, begging, God, can you please just take him out of my life? Can you please do something? If you’re not willing to do that, at least give him a DUI so that he stops driving drunk and possibly hurting other people. ## THERAPIST FINALLY CONFIRMS MY HUSBAND IGNORING ME, IS ABUSE **Mary:** I kid you not. I get a call at 3:00 AM from the jail, him crying, saying he’d been arrested for a DUI. I couldn’t believe it. And I thought in that moment, God has my back. I can get outta this, but it wasn’t until my daughter was almost two years old, when the final straw happened. She was crying, she called out Mama over and over, and he shut her in the room, locked the door and wouldn’t let me go in. I just put my head on the doorframe, realizing this is never going to get better. If I can’t even have connection with my child, what am I doing here? So I called up my therapist and I said, is this abuse? Is this domestic violence? **Anne:** So from the time you think my husband is ignoring me to now, how long had you been going to therapy, until you thought [can my husband change?](https://www.btr.org/can-my-husband-change/ "can my husband change?") **Mary:** For maybe six years. **Anne:** I’m just shocked. You realize how insane that is. You’ve told the therapist all of these stories. **Mary:** So, she says, “Yes. It’s the worst case in my career I’ve ever seen.” **Anne:** This is why I don’t recommend therapy. It’s not that this therapist is a bad person or anything, but you’ve been going to her for six years. At this point, she says it’s the worst case she’s ever seen. Instead of telling you, you don’t need therapy, he’s an abuser. So I am not gonna see you anymore. You do need to go to the domestic violence shelter, though, because there’s nothing wrong with you other than being abused. That would’ve been the appropriate thing to tell you. You don’t need therapy, but you do need safety. ## SO MANY MIRACLES HAPPENED **Mary:** Absolutely, I got all my ducks in a row. I started going to centers that help abused women. I got a grant where they paid for me to get a mover and a truck. The day I was going to leave, I got a call from a domestic violence fatality specialist. She says, “Hey, I heard your story, this one bedroom apartment just opened. It’s not even cleaned yet. They’re still moving out, but it’s yours if you want it.” They let me stay for two years, and while I was there, I got my career going again, started saving money, figured out babysitting, finalized the divorce, the whole nine yards. There are so many miracles that no one can convince me that God wasn’t helping me. And what I finally realized was God would never want someone’s safety and wellbeing and their mental clarity compromised. I matters to God. Once I figured that out, I thought, ” I don’t owe anybody anything. I need to be safe.” **Anne:** I’m so glad you had those resources available to you. The social safety net is so important. I had somebody ask me, if you could wave a magic wand, and be like, what could stop domestic violence? The two things are healthcare available for everyone and childcare available for everyone. Because women can’t get a job that would pay for childcare. And so then you’re just stuck. And also, so many women who are abused have serious health problems and need insurance. They can’t pay for insurance because they have their health problems. **Mary:** I know. There were so many things that pointed toward him being the problem. After I left, I could see that more clearly. ## MY HUSBAND IS IGNORING ME: MANIPULATION & MIND GAMES **Anne:** Originally the issue was your husband is ignoring you. Talk about what you noticed once you could observe him from a safe distance. How did your mind start to clear? **Mary:** Once I got my own place, I could see much more clearly these games that he’d been playing, and that gave me a little more power and autonomy over my own actions, decisions, and thoughts. I knew I could go ahead and move on with my life. And he’s gonna make a fuss and act out and say all these things, but probably nothing will come of it. **Anne:** To manipulate us, they know that we need to believe them and pay attention. In the [Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/), I teach safety strategies to help women perceive what he’s doing differently, so that they can create space in their own minds. If they can’t create any physical space at that time, or if they don’t want to create physical space. Some women don’t want to get divorced. I felt that way, and you felt that way. So we totally understand. Especially when the institutions around us, like therapy and clergy, didn’t give you the right information. I think that is so insane that our society is set up so that an abuse victim who doesn’t understand that she’s being abused can actively go to get help and still not understand that she’s being abused for years. Because of the institutions and the way they respond to abuse. Most of the time, they don’t know it’s abuse either. **Mary:** A friend of mine who’s a licensed clinical social worker recommended your podcast to me. ## STRENGTH FROM OTHER’S STORIES **Mary:** As I listened to your podcast, I started looking forward to this validation that this guy is in his own class of special. And there are a bunch of guys out there that do this to women like me. I would sit there with my headphones on my breaks at work and try to cram in as much as possible, because I knew this is giving me strength to keep healing after the fact. **Anne:** I’m so glad. You sound incredible, smart, capable and successful, and you’re a good mom. I’m grateful for women like you who share their story. It still makes me feel better after all these years. Because your story sounds like mine. The details are different, but the pattern is the same, and it is so validating. It’s nice to be part of a sisterhood of incredible strong women who are smart, who were manipulated, and it’s no fault of our own. Maybe they relate to you and how your husband is ignoring you at first. You’ve mentioned God a few times, and then I also hear your hesitation about the church, which makes complete sense. I’ve been in that exact same space where, you know God is coming through for you, but the institution itself, at least in this case, was very damaging. **Mary:** I would say that with the church I was attending for about 20 years, their involvement in my situation was horrifyingly, hands off. There were members here and there, who I could trust and talk to. When I would go to the elders, they wanted to sit down with him and I together and talk about what was going on. They don’t know what to do when my husband is ignoring me. ## NOT ADDRESSING THE UNDERLYING ISSUE OF ABUSE **Mary:** Looking back, that is not helpful at all, because I’m just getting re-traumatized, re-abused with them, seeing it or him gaslighting, everybody. in these therapy sessions with elders, they’re all seeing a different side of him. The side of him that I initially thought I had fallen in love with. Nobody’s really addressing the underlying issue of abuse. **Anne:** They should never ever pull him in to talk to him about it. Even if the victim wants them to. if they understood abuse, they would say, that’ll actually put you in more danger. Which is why I don’t recommend men’s programs anymore. Any confronting him whatsoever about his behavior will not help you see what he is like. Letting women know that going to therapy or clergy can go bad, ’cause they can abuse you worse overtly, or covertly. Meaning they can groom a lot better, and that gives them the opportunity to do that. And that’s the most dangerous, is when they can hide their true nature. **Mary:** A hundred percent agree. The grooming is scary because it’s so easy to be blinded to it, and it’s not just the victim, it’s everyone around too. **Anne:** For any woman listening, maybe this is their first podcast they’ve ever listened to, and maybe they’re wondering like, is it abuse? Am I making a mountain out of a mole hill? What would you say to them from my husband is ignoring me to other abuses, and what you’ve been through? **Mary:** What I would say is when somebody shows you, their true colors, believe them. When they make you feel anxious, stressed out, and then blame you. ## MY HUSBAND IS IGNORING ME TURNED INTO POST SEPARATION ABUSE **Mary:** If you feel uncomfortable or ask yourself, why is this marriage or this relationship so hard? Your marriage is probably involving somebody who’s abusive. Honestly, listening to this podcast helped me sort through many uncertainties. By the time I found this podcast, everything I had been through made so much more sense. From my husband is ignoring me to overt abuse. I think if there’s any confusion about your situation, don’t brush it off. Listen to your instincts. If you’re not comfortable, your body’s not comfortable, there’s a reason, and it’s probably not you. **Anne:** Can you talk about post-separation abuse and the stuff you had to deal with since you separated and divorced. **Mary:** Oh man, it’s been tough, honestly, having any communication at any point. It’s almost as bad as when we were in our 10 year marriage. We are seven years post-divorce. He’s pretty manic and depressive at times, and demanding. I went through the [Living Free Workshop](/livingfree), and I got to this one section and it talked about my brain. There’s this image of your brain filled with all this abuse, taking up so much space in your life and your thoughts, and you feel so squeezed out. And the visual is so clearly depicted, showing what it’s like to be the victim. There’s no room for you. There’s no space for your own thoughts or desires. It’s all about catering to this unstable person who is controlling your life. That was when I thought, this is going to be a good workshop because Anne gets it. It’s like walking through it with a good friend who understands what they’re gonna say, how they’re gonna react, why they’re doing it, what their goal is. ## YOUR EYES ARE OPENED TO THEIR GAMES **Mary:** When I got to the end of the workshop, I had to respond to something from him that was super coercive and controlling. I thought, oh, perfect. I’m gonna finish these last few lessons in this workshop. And I’m gonna figure out how to respond and see if this works. I implemented those strategies, and I didn’t get any lip back, I got no punishment. I thought, this is exactly what I needed all these years. And I wish I had found this sooner. I thought, oh my goodness, this is what women need to know **Anne:** I wanna talk about that, because many people might perceive there’s something you can do to improve your situation. Even when my husband is ignoring me. I wanna make it clear that you’re not changing him in any way. What the Living Free Strategies enable women to do is see him for who he is, predict what he will do. **Mary:** Absolutely, I think what you’re saying is spot on. It’s almost like your eyes are opened to what their game is, and now you have the rules. So now you’ve got a playbook. And it’s just a different type of strategy that feels counterintuitive. None of their communication is based on actually trying to solve anything. They just want the dopamine hit of confusing you and making you struggle. To communicate more strategically puts the power back in my court. **Anne:** I’ve mentored so many women through that divorce process using these strategies. After doing the workshop, their messages are absolutely court approved. ## TAKING AWAY YOUR VULNERABILITY **Anne:** If this guy’s like, “Look how terrible she is, look at her messages.” They show up to court, and every time they’re like, “These are great.” The way she presents looks good in court. It looks good to anybody else. If he shows those messages to anybody, they’re gonna be like, this is fine. It’s like win-win for you. The other thing is that it doesn’t give him what he wants, so it’s confusing to him. They’ve always been able to manipulate your emotions. The “husband is ignoring me” is a tactic. Can you talk about the counter intuitiveness of the Living Free Workshop? I think people think that maybe it’s the stuff they’ve heard from another influencer, like Gray Rock or maybe, something they heard from a therapist, like how to communicate. And it’s so different. It’s not anything a therapist would say. **Mary:** This [Living Free Workshop](/livingfree) helped immensely. As a victim, most of us we’re really kind, we’re good hearted. We wanna solve problems, we wanna work together. You’re always trying to have this honest vulnerability and I think that’s what you take away, is that emotional vulnerability. But it doesn’t look like it in your messages to this person. You don’t make yourself vulnerable to this person in that sense of trying to solve the problem. **Anne:** Having been abused post-divorce for eight years myself, before I came up with these strategies, people would tell me, just don’t let him affect you And I was like, that is crazy. So post-divorce, I did not experience any physical violence. ## STRATEGIES THAT WORK WHEN MY HUSBAND IS IGNORING ME **Anne:** So this is an analogy, because when they are emotionally abusive or psychologically abusive, you discover a lie. Again, they’re undermining your children, it feels like a punch to the gut. So I’m going to use that analogy, even though I’m not actually talking about physical violence here. So every time he’s lying about the kids, it feels like a punch, and so the analogy is if he’s punching me in the face. I have a bruise, and you’re telling me, just don’t get a bruise. It’s not possible. What the strategies do is put a barrier between you and his fist. So, he’s punching, but, it’s not touching you. The more I did the strategies, the more he kept punching, and it was almost like I was in this protected bubble. **Mary:** That’s a great analogy. Yep. I am no longer getting punched in the face, even though it doesn’t stop them from trying. It’s not about stopping them, it’s all about, Hey, you know what? You wanna be this type of person. Go ahead, I don’t wanna be exposed to that type of person. I’m not opening the door for you. **Anne:** Yes. **Mary:** I’m not allowing you to have access to me. **Anne:** The [Living Free Workshop](/livingfree) came together after years of interviewing women and my own study and all kinds of experimentation. A well-known addiction recovery therapist would tell the men that he worked with, as long as your wife is angry, then we have something to work with. The thing you need to fear the most is apathy, which he was legit teaching them how to manipulate women. Would he say that he was doing this? No, he was saying he was, saving marriages. A “husband is ignoring me” is a tactic for manipulation. ## FINDING OUT ABOUT HIS PORNOGRAPHY USE **Anne:** If you’re saving marriages through teaching this man how to manipulate his wife better or exploit her more, you’re not saving a marriage. You are enabling an abuser. Because your story involves that your husband was a pornography addict, I’d like to talk about that specifically. Another part of the Living Free strategies in relation to pornography addiction or addiction recovery is that a lot of addiction therapists will say something like, connection is the solution to his addiction. Or couple therapists will be like, the problem is you’re not connecting on an emotional level. And so then in couple therapy or addiction recovery therapy, you become more vulnerable with someone who is just using all those things to manipulate you. Including my husband is ignoring me. So it becomes exponentially worse for you throughout that process. Looking back, can you talk about how that affected you? **Mary:** I didn’t even realize when we got together that any kind of sexual addiction, pornography addiction was even on the table. We got together through church, so it didn’t occur to me that there would be anything immorally going on with him. During that time, he would get really moody, and I remember thinking, I don’t wanna deal with this. This is how my Christian boyfriend is treating me and we’re not even engaged or married or anything. It wasn’t until we got engaged that he started talking about how we need to confess our sins. We really need to be honest about what we’re getting into as a marriage and like our commitment. We got together with another couple in the church who were gonna do our premarital counseling. And during that time it came out that he would look at pornography. ## MY HUSBAND IS IGNORING ME BECAUSE OF PORNOGRAPHY **Mary:** And that’s when he started saying, “Well, we need to be open and honest and confess our sins to each other.” And I tell you what, and it was like he would confess this to me every time I saw him, I was like, what is wrong? I thought, maybe it’s just because he’s so excited to get married and then we can finally have intimacy. We followed all the rules and then we get married and I realize, I am in this deep black abyss of sin with this man. It was scary to see how deep involved in it he was. I could always tell when he had been looking at pornography because his mood would shift. He would become very punishing. He would become very cruel. We got home from our horrible honeymoon. We just fought the whole time because he wanted sex to go a certain way. It felt really unnatural and not loving to me. I didn’t know what was going on, and now my husband is ignoring me. I spent the whole time crying in another room, and I thought, this is a tragic sad way to enter into a marriage covenant. Because I thought it was something kind and loving, but it wasn’t. We get home from this honeymoon, and I feel like a ghost. I’m just living in this house with this guy who I feel like I don’t even know. So I’m online looking up annulments. How do I get out of this? What does God think? Questions you start having and not feeling like there was anyone I could talk to because it was such bizarre behavior. I had never heard of anything like this. As the years went by, it was the same pattern. ## TWISTING THE WHOLE NARRATIVE MAKING IT MY FAULT **Mary:** He’d become very mean and abusive and angry and sullen and pouty. I started to recognize the pattern. He’s been looking at pornography. So then I started to bring it up because I don’t wanna live in this sullen and guilty, stressed out environment where my husband is ignoring me all the time and so I thought, let me address it. I’ll bring it up, and I’ll just try to forgive him. After a while, you get numb to it. In the beginning, I’d be heartbroken. I would be sad or like, what’s wrong with me? That you don’t want me. I’m the real thing. Like I’m a real woman that you can have sex with. I’m your wife. **Anne:** Yeah. **Mary:** But then he doesn’t prefer that. He doesn’t want that ever. It was always on the screens alone, behind closed doors by himself. And I thought, this is exhausting. I’m gonna confront it. I’m not gonna live like this. And then it became my responsibility. It was like his sin, his problem, and his addiction became my issue to confront, deal with, address and forgive. And if I didn’t forgive him correctly then, I was the one to blame. Because I wasn’t understanding enough. And if I would just be nicer about it, then he could trust me to be vulnerable on his own. And it was almost like he was twisting this whole narrative around to make it my fault that he was choosing to be unfaithful to me with these explicit images. **Anne:** Right. **Mary:** I was absolutely not on board. He knew how much it broke my heart every single time. ## MANIPULATING YOU TO DO ALL THE WORK **Mary:** And then I was the one having to ask him to forgive me for not being vulnerable or supportive or fill in the blank with whatever nonsense. **Anne:** We see this pattern happen and then we try to anticipate it and do something to change it. In my situation, I would fight him like, Hey, you’re acting weird. Are you looking at pornography? I would confront him. Near the end when I used a few Living Free strategies, not really knowing what I was doing, just experimenting. I just ignored him and took a step back and saw that their pornography use has two benefits to them. Number one, they get to watch porn all they want, and then number two, you are doing all this work. And so it’s like win-win for them. I didn’t know that was manipulation on his part. It’s not your fault that you were trying to anticipate what to do to manage the situation. He wanted you to do that. You were attempting to protect yourself. You thought that was the good way to do it, because that’s what he manipulated you to think. But that’s also what everybody else is saying. Like if he is feeling sad and grumpy, what can you do for him? How can you be kinder? So that this won’t happen. **Mary:** I wish that I had had access to the [Living Free Workshop](/livingfree) during all of that chaotic time being married to him. There is one strategy that would’ve given me my mental sanity back despite his chaos. There’s this one step by step in Living Free, where you think about what’s the problem. ## WHEN MY HUSBAND IS IGNORING ME, I CAN’T MAKE HIM STOP **Mary:** Okay, he is gonna look at pornography. Why? Because he wants to do what he wants and he wants to see me cry. So what then? I’ll cry and he’ll look at pornography, I guess. And then what? And you keep going through, all right, so then you’ll cry, and then eventually the reality is he’s gonna do whatever he wants either way. So what do I wanna do? I can’t change the fact that he’s gonna look at these images. I can’t change the fact that it feels like he’s being unfaithful to me. And I can’t change the fact it hurts my heart and soul and I’m being crushed in all these ways. And my husband is ignoring me. So maybe we don’t have closeness or I sleep in a different room or maybe we get divorced or I go stay at my mom’s house. When you take a minute and you think it all through, it takes away that fear. Because it gets down to the nitty gritty of what is the end result that you’re so afraid is gonna happen. You come around to this acceptance of I really can’t make them do anything or stop anything. That was something that, I found very eye-opening because there’s this underlying assumption that somehow I could fix this. **Anne:** Mm-hmm. **Mary:** And you realize, all you can do is protect yourself, and then learning how to protect yourself was so valuable. **Anne:** And it’s no wonder that we think that we can improve the situation because they manipulate us to think, if we only did this, he would make a different choice. If we looked better, he wouldn’t wanna look at pornography. ## SETTING BOUNDARIES CORRECTLY **Anne:** So you’re like, okay, I’ll reduce his stress as much as possible. And he’s manipulated the therapist or clergy or anybody else to also think that this is a couple problem and that you can do this together. You can’t do it together ’cause it’s not your problem. I think the other issue is so many therapists will talk about boundaries. Like, did you tell him what your boundaries were? You just haven’t set up your boundaries correctly or something. And I’m like, what are you talking about? If you say to someone, I don’t want you to look at pornography, he can still look at it. If you are like, what actual thing am I going to do to protect myself that I’m not gonna say to him that I’m not gonna say to anybody else that if he looks at pornography when he comes home and says, what’s for dinner? I’ll be like, I’m gonna eat at my sister’s house. That’s a totally different way of seeing and viewing boundaries where you don’t even say a word about it. And that’s something entirely within your control and it actually works and he can’t cross it. There’s no way for him to cross it because you haven’t told him what it is. You’re just doing it. **Mary:** There’s no negotiating. I like what you were saying about how he keeps convincing you with his behaviors and manipulation that you can fix it. The manipulation is to keep you engaged. My husband is ignoring me is a tactic for manipulation. They’ve gotta have somebody engaged, arguing with them, crying about it, serving them. ## DON’T GIVE HIM ANYTHING OF VALUE **Mary:** They have to convince you on some level that you need to stay engaged. Even if my husband is ignoring me. And maybe it’s because you have a certain set of morals. This is a good Christian girl, like it was in my case. **Anne:** I do wanna point out, at the back of Living Free, I use my own faith to explain what I thought Christ wanted me to do, for any Christian, scriptures, like, don’t cast your pearls before swine or agree with your adversary quickly. Agree with your adversary quickly sounds like you’re being nice to them, but the second part of that is so he doesn’t throw you in jail. And so Christ is saying to you, pretend like you agree with him so he doesn’t throw you in jail. You don’t have to actually agree with him. Don’t cast your pearls before swine. Your pearls are things that matter. The Living Free strategies, make it so that you don’t give him anything of value. That includes your thoughts, your goals, your feelings. Those are valuable things. So, there’s a part in Living Free where I pause to say, what are your values? This fits within a Christian value system. Christ talks about it all the time, and I don’t know why clergy are not focused on scriptures that actually benefit women and help set them free. In the back of the [Living Free](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) Workbook, it shows you, there’s 1600 places it talks about separation and casting out devils, and only 400 that talk about forgiveness. Did you see that graph at the back of the workbook? ## STRATEGIC COMMUNICATION WHEN MY HUSBAND IS IGNORING ME **Mary:** I did. And it makes me think about the scripture that says to be as shrewd as a snake, but innocent as a dove. **Anne:** Yes, especially when my husband is ignoring me. **Mary:** You’re not doing anything wrong, but you can be strategic in how you communicate. I think this really opened up my eyes to the truth of a lot of things I wasn’t aware of. Honestly, I feel excited to do the message strategies now that I’ve done the [Living Free Workshop](/livingfree). I think for anyone who’s wondering about this Living Free Workshop, just do it. What can you possibly lose? After so many years of being given either bad advice or no advice or empty promises or blame, I found that going through this workshop, was like a breath of fresh air. These are not strategies any of those other resources provided me. Not my church elders, not my therapist, not my friends, not my family. Nobody could tell me the things that were in the Living Free Workshop. Support that you’re just not gonna find anywhere else. You really aren’t. I’ve looked, I’ve read so many books, I’ve listened to so many podcasts and gone to so many different therapists. Like, you can just try the Living Free Workshop and it’s gonna change things for you. Implementing the strategies, I already see results. I can’t imagine why you wouldn’t try it, to be honest, because it’s just so helpful. And there’s this whole section in here about your financial safety, your physical safety. I had to figure out on my own, what kinds of financial things do I need to be thinking of and I wish I had the workshop. Just tangible, effective things to be asking, to think about. ## HOW DO I CREATE SAFETY? **Mary:** Questions you need to ask your lawyer, not because you necessarily need it right now, but you might. I know I did. I just think for people who are in the middle, wading through the weeds of it all, this workshop gives you so much detail to consider and you can get into the detail as much or as little as you want. **Anne:** It’s awesome that with the domestic violence shelter gave you a space to live. They’re very helpful in some very specific ways, but when it comes to writing a message, they don’t know what to do. e. **Mary:** Right, your body is safe but what about my spirit or my mind or my emotions, my child? Like how do I create a safety zone in all these other realms. All they care about, and thank God they at least care about your physical safety. But that’s the really the only element of safety I got out of it. **Anne:** Yes. Living Free is also for women still in the relationship I just put all the information in there. Like you can use it however you want, but that way you’ll be educated about all of it so that if anything comes your way, you’ll be prepared for it. Even if you’re just suspecting is my husband lying to me? If you did Living Free, it would show you how to find out if he’s lying to you without asking him. **Mary:** Right. **Anne:** So just having the basic steps in the back of your mind is very helpful because it keeps you safe no matter what happens. ## YOU NEED A SOLID PLAN TO PROTECT YOURSELF **Anne:** In some states he has to actually have left bruises to get a protective order. And if you don’t have a crime, you’re never gonna get a space in the shelter, for example. So where do you get help, if nobody knows what to do. if people think that divorce is the answer, they don’t understand what it’s like. **Mary:** It’s not the answer that will end his behavior. In my experience, that’s when it escalates. **Anne:** Yes. **Mary:** That’s when you have to really have a solid plan and know exactly how to protect yourself. You need to have that in order before before you go. **Anne:** If I would’ve had Living Free, I would’ve done everything differently and it would’ve gone exponentially better. Now, it’s not my fault that it didn’t go well. It’s his. He was abusing me, manipulating me. I didn’t know. Nobody told me. The domestic violence shelter didn’t tell me. It’s almost like they want women to start from scratch. Every single woman who goes through this, rather than using that collective experience, which is what is in Living Free. This is the stuff every woman needs to know before they even meet the guy. Before they’re even in a relationship. This is stuff that you need to know, period. It’s gonna keep you safe in any relationship that you have, but especially, if you’re dealing with an emotionally or psychologically abusive husband. ## WHEN MY HUSBAND IS IGNORING ME: YOU NEED SPACE TO SEE WHO HE REALLY IS **Mary:** Anyone could go through this workshop. I don’t care if you’re in a relationship or not, it’s almost like a precourse to equip yourself, have your tools, and all the things you need because you need to know who you’re dealing with. **Anne:** Yeah. It gives you enough space to actually see who he is. So many women think the answer is to ask about pornography. Before I got married, I asked, and he said he didn’t use it. But if he’s lying, talking won’t protect you. Watch what he does: the “my husband is ignoring me” pattern, disappearing acts, mood flips. Those behaviors tell the truth, and knowing what they indicate helps keep you safe. **Mary:** Yes. **Anne:** Mary, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today. I appreciate you so much. **Mary:** My pleasure. It’s so great talking with you, Anne. Thanks for having me. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Counter Parenting: 6 Warning Signs Every Mother Needs to See](https://www.btr.org/counter-parenting/) **Published:** January 6, 2026 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Recognizing and understanding counter parenting is vital for emotional safety and freedom. **Content:** Counter parenting is often overlooked as a form of abuse. When one parent is actively undermining the stability of the other parent’s relationship with their children through creating chaos and doubt, it confuses the children and normalizes emotional abuse. In this episode, we talk about how to recognize counter parenting tactics and why understanding it is vital for creating safety and freedom for you and your kids. To see if your partner’s behavior is emotionally abusive, take our [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ## SIX TRUTHS ABOUT COUNTER PARENTING EVERY MOM NEEDS TO KNOW ## 1. COUNTER PARENTING LOOKS HARMLESS IN PUBLIC, BUT IT’S CRUEL IN PRIVATE. In public, it may sound like jokes. It may seem like teasing, but in private it cuts deep. What seems like humor or sympathy actually erodes a child’s respect for their mom. ## 2. COUNTER PARENTING KEEPS YOU BUSY & CONFUSED. He creates constant fires with the kids that keep you spinning your wheels so that you have to be involved and he can exploit you for parenting. You’re left doing the chores he forgot. Fixing problems he “didn’t know how to handle” or covering responsibilities he shrugs off. The chaos robs you of energy for real parenting and distracts you from the core issue, a pattern of deception and control. ## 3. COUNTER PARENTING NORMALIZES EMOTIONAL ABUSE. His anger issues or stress mask his manipulation. He uses secrets and favors to pull kids into his corner and create distance from you. ## 4. COUNTER PARENTING GROOMS & ISOLATES THE PROTECTIVE PARENT. I went through this. I was so stressful all the time. People thought it was my fault, and they distanced themselves from me. Which was very difficult. While redefining you as unstable, he love bombs the children with gifts, leniency, and special treatment to position himself as the fun one and undermine your authority. It’s important to know that healing doesn’t happen in isolation—it happens in a community of women who truly understand what you’re going through. [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/) are designed to offer just that. ## 5. THE KIDS WILL FIGURE IT OUT SOONER THAN YOU THINK. Kids quickly learn who they feel safe with eventually they will come to know who they can count on. ## 6. IF HE’S A TERRIBLE HUSBAND, HE CAN’T BE A GOOD FATHER. A man who lies and degrades women can never be a good dad. If this list resonates with your experiences in your marriage, there is a strong possibility you may be facing emotional abuse. To learn effective strategies for protecting yourself, consider enrolling in [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). ## TRANSCRIPT: COUNTER PARENTING HIDDEN TRUTHS YOU SHOULD KNOW **Anne:** I have A. S. King on today’s episode. I think you’ll resonate with her story, especially when we get to this part. Her latest book is called *[Pick The Lock.](https://amzn.to/4nz1EaC)* **Amy:** I didn’t know this at the time, and I really know it now. One can’t be a terrible husband and a good father. We can take something terrible and somehow survive in it. **Anne:** So yes, our topic today is counter parenting. A. S. King is incredible. The New York Times book Review called her one of the best YA writers working today. And is one of YA fiction’s most decorated. She’s the only two-time winner of the American Library Association’s Michael L. Prince Award. She won the LA Times book prize for *Ask the Passengers*. And in 2022, Amy received the ALA’s, Margaret A. Edwards Award for her lifetime achievement in YA literature. So as you listen to Amy, you’ll hear each of those six things in her story. Welcome, Amy. **Amy:** Thank you for having me, Anne. From the very beginning, I followed you on Instagram. I often link your graphics in my stories in Instagram. Your graphics are educational, when you will find yourself in a situation where there is abuse. It mattered so much to me, because I lived almost 30 years with abuse. I had this one book called *Still Life with Tornado*. It came out in 2016. A lot of recovery groups for women who have been through abuse use that one, specifically psychological and [emotional abuse](https://www.btr.org/7-powerful-truths-about-emotional-abuse/). Which of course is always present when any of the other stuff is there. This year I just released a book called *Pick the Lock*, which is very close to, a lot of the things I’ve been dealing with. Before I finally divorced, and since. ## THE SILENT TYRANT: THE SUBVERSIVE TACTICS OF THE COUNTER PARENT **Amy:** Actually, the book for this year is all about what I found out about counter parenting. This is part of why I wanted to come here. I know that some listeners in that space I can help and fix this, and they’re stuck. Because I was stuck for 29 years. I believed so many things and I thought so many things. We all know hindsight’s 20-20. You learn life backward, right? That’s how it works. And what I learned in the last few years really taught me. That a huge part of the rest of my life will be trying to compassionately warn women and young women. And that our levels of comfort and safety are actually incredibly important, even though society constantly tells us that they are not. Yeah, I just wanted to talk to you about why I love your work so much. **Anne:** I’m so grateful that you reached out, and excited when artists, writers, use your unique talents to help other women. So as you’re considering teaching a generation of women through YA fiction about how to recognize abuse, what are some patterns that every woman needs to know regardless of their age? **Amy:** One of the best things about writing fiction for me is that it’s not implicating somebody, even though it’s all true. It’s sort of, like showing the behaviors. And showing the reactions to the behaviors. In *Still Life with Tornado*, for example, the mother has a point of view part. So she speaks from her own point of view. But the father, he’s just that silent tyrant. Sort of that quiet abuse that’s really easy to get away with, because it’s quiet and it’s only aimed at disrespecting his wife in that book. ## TREATING YOU TERRIBLY IN FRONT OF THE CHILDREN **Amy:** Chad is always doing small things that are unhelpful and disruptive, but he thinks no one else can see it. Now from the point of view of the 16 year old daughter, she can absolutely see it. And in my own life, I was like, isn’t that interesting? I write books about how young people see abuse, recognize it, and harmed by it. It’s not possible to do that. And while that seems unfair, he takes them to the movies. Yes, I understand he does all those things, but he also treats you terribly in front of your children, and behind your back is doing some form of counter parenting. And counter parenting is a term I only really just learned, and really understood that is what my life was made of. And I didn’t know it, because it’s all done behind your back. That’s the whole point. [Turning your kids against you](https://www.btr.org/ex-uses-the-kids-to-hurt-you/) without even you knowing it. Because you’re so busy trying to fix him and fix the situation, and get him back to the guy he was when you got married. Who didn’t exist, by the way. So for me, the pattern of the person being abused is what I’m focusing on, because there’s domestic violence in many of my novels, even my middle grade novels for younger readers. Because that young person is in the house trying to help mom see it. And help mom escape. I guess I’m writing about my own mistakes. I’m looking at my own mistakes and saying, look, I’m putting this on the page so I can learn from it. ## COUNTER PARENTING IN ACTION: BREAKING WHAT MATTERS MOST TO YOU **Amy:** And I mean, Anne, I wrote a middle grade book called *Attack of the Black Rectangles*. It’s about censorship. and book banning. She still invites the ex-husband over for the sake of the child. She feeds him dinner once a week. And her father, the grandfather, lives in the basement. So it’s like an interesting kind of new family structure, and there’s this scene where the son is sitting at the table, the mom is doing some stuff in the kitchen, she’d been looking for this mug. It meant a lot to her, and she couldn’t find it anywhere. She’d asked her dad, she’d asked the son. So then this ex-husband shows up and she says, “Oh, by the way, have you seen my mug?” And he says, “I smashed it.” The kid’s sitting right at the table, and the grandfather’s too. And she said, “Wait, you mean like it broke on the way out of the dishwasher?” He goes, “No, I smashed it because I was angry.” And he kept that terrifying tone. It was interesting because when my editor read that, for some reason, that’s when he texted me and said, oh my gosh, the mug scene. And I wrote back to him, I’m like, that happened. It’s the idea that we go, he has anger issues. Really? Did he smash his boss’s mug? No. Did he smash a stranger’s mug? No. He only smashed the things that were important to you. And in the end, he takes things from the house, and the only things he takes are things from the son and the ex-wife, so it’s these sort of things I don’t have any time for anymore. ## COUNTER PARENTING DISGUISED AS HUMOR NORMALIZES ABUSE **Amy:** I don’t have any time for it, because I got free. It’s the best thing ever. I wake up every morning going, oh, putting my hands up like I just won a race every single morning, because I’m free. And it’s wonderful. So *[Pick the Lock](https://a.co/d/74ilJgJ "Pick the Lock")* came out and I’m a weirdo too, right? So I write weird stuff, but I also write trauma, specifically, because regardless of what kind of trauma I’m putting in there, I think weirdness really helps. There’s an emotional currency in weirdness. Because when one has gone through trauma, you feel weird because the world’s like shhh, we don’t want to hear about that. “Why don’t you just solve that problem by yourself? Be cool, shhh.” And that’s a terrible way to deal with trauma. That’s how we’ve been dealing with this, is most people are kids. Everybody’s like no, but don’t talk about that. I believe people should talk about their trauma. So in *Pick the Lock*, it’s really about the counter parenting I learned about after the divorce. I got to tell you the story about the guy at Target, classic counter parenting and totally acceptable in our culture. This is a real like old style Rodney Dangerfield almost kind of joke. He’s got three girls. And he’s at the self checkout. The kids were probably at the most, the oldest was maybe nine and the others were pretty little, down to maybe four and he’s got the three girls there around the cart he gets some cash back. And when he takes the cash out of the machine, he goes, “And you know who we won’t give this to. Who won’t we give this money to? We won’t give this money to Mommy because all she’s gonna do is spend it.” ## YA CHARACTER SEES THE ABUSE FROM A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE **Amy:** That’s not what you tell your children. If you married to her, you have her back. That’s the whole point of a partnership. This is a huge type of psychological abuse and emotional abuse that people do to children. He thinks he’s being funny. But he’s not. That’s just mean and nasty. That’s a typical sort of everyday example of what counter parenting really is. **Anne:** Because your books are YA and the main character is a young adult, they are seeing the abuse from a different perspective. How has that helped you process abuse? Than say, the wife of the abuser who maybe doesn’t realize what’s going on, or maybe she does and doesn’t know what to do. She’s resisting it by trying couple therapy, or she’s resisting by going to clergy, or she’s resisting in a way that’s not keeping her safe, it’s not keeping her kids safe. But it’s the best she can do, because she doesn’t understand what’s going on. **Amy:** Like if I look back at now 35 years of my life, it’s more than half of my life. I’m 54. So like when I look back at that amount of time and look at how many things I was lied to about, holy cow! And now I’m starting to see the small stuff, like dumb stuff. Like, this is how we paint the thing, or this is how we clean brushes. It was like, no, that’s just what you think. It’s not actually the only way to do a thing. I had to answer a question recently on a college financial aid application. ## LYING IS AT THE CORE OF ABUSE AND COUNTER PARENTING **Amy:** It asked, “Is the person remarried?” I was like, no, but I almost wanted to put a question mark behind that, because I’m not sure. And, “Does the person have other children?” I’m like unknown. He lied so much. I honestly wouldn’t know. I would never intentionally hurt a person, would never take someone’s pain and use it against them. And I just listened to one of your episodes about forgiveness used against you. Some of the worst things that ever happened to me, of course, I shared those with my spouse. When you share that with a person, you expect them to keep that private for you, the way you keep things private for them. I got a lot of interesting messages in the last few years. A few of them were from women that had worked with him. They knew what they thought were secrets about me. They were lies, They weren’t secrets. He made up secrets based on the terrible things that happened to me. And told people that’s what I liked. He actually tried to pick up women by saying that I liked these weird things. And he just couldn’t do those weird things. It was like, wow, not only is that wrong, but when you share with somebody that you have been sexually assaulted or raped. And then they turn around and use that to pick up women at work. Then gets let go for serial sexual harassment. He’s a mess, just a walking, lying mess. **Anne:** The lying is the most important part of counter parenting. ## LYING IS EMOTIONAL & PSYCHOLOGICAL ABUSE **Anne:** Determine if his character is a liar, which is an abuser, because [lying is emotional and psychological abuse](https://www.btr.org/my-husband-is-lying-to-me/). You can’t process the information if you don’t have that baseline understanding. But once you realize that, everything changes. A woman might say to me, his therapist told him that I probably suffer from childhood trauma. And I always want to ask, who told you his therapist said that? Because he could literally not have gone to therapy at all. **Amy:** Correct. **Anne:** Not even have a therapist and tell you that his therapist said that, and he’s never even been to therapy. Or he could go to therapy and the therapist didn’t say that, but he chooses to say that when he gets home. This could apply to clergy. It could apply to his mom. It could apply to the neighbor. “Hey, this neighbor said this about you.” And so you’re thinking, wow, this is what the neighbor said when the neighbor never said it, or a billion other possibilities. But knowing that he’s a liar is the key to unlock all of it including counter parenting. ## HOW COUNTER PARENTING SHOWS HE NEVER WANTED TO MAKE THE RELATIONSHIP WORK **Amy:** It’s huge, that’s the key to the lock. And once you realize you can’t even answer basic questions. Because when you learn about the weird throwaway lies. And you learn about all these different lies. You realize, did he ever tell the truth? For me, I gave him the benefit of the doubt. I’m just like, well, you know, childhood stuff or this or that. And eventually, my son turned to me and said, “Will you keep making excuses for him your whole life?” And I was like, no, I’m not going to keep making excuses. But I did because I wanted everything to continue working out as best as it could. Which of course it never did. Because you know what? I was the only one wanting it. and doing the stuff required for something to work out for the best. But then once I started learning all these different things he was like, I must have a mental illness. I said, go and talk to your doctor or go to therapy. And then he said, “I have this mental illness.” You must take care of me. And so I did that. I remember being in a car in some strange place at a conference for publishing. And my editor in the back of the car said, “I don’t know why you stay with this person.” Knowing the stories I had told over the years. I was always late on deadlines. Oh, life was so complicated, they keep you busy so that you can’t do anything. You can’t even think. So I’m in this car, and I say, listen, if he had MS, or if he got diagnosed with a physical illness, would I leave him? ## HE LIED ABOUT MENTAL ILLNESS No, I would stay with him. He has this illness. Then once things were over, my ex-husband and I had a conversation, and he laughed at me and said, “I never had a mental illness.” I said, “Well, you told the kids for 10 years that you had a mental illness. You told all of us.” And he went, “Yeah, I never had that.” I said, “Then why are you so abusive?” And he actually said, “It’s just because I’m an a-hole.” And I just left it at that. But then over the years, I’m like, hold it. The reason the house is in my name is because it’s my house, It was like, “Oh, you have to put my name in the mortgage because, I have this illness and that means I have a fear of this. And you have to put it there.” And then I look all the different things that I was coerced into doing based on this lie. **Anne:** Yeah, because of his lie. **Amy:** It’s incredible. At the very end, it was like, “I have an addiction now too.” And I’m like, “Once you come out of rehab, then you go and find a halfway house.” “You can’t put me in a halfway house. I have to come home.” Really!? The keeping you busy, the keeping you worried, the keeping you hypervigilant, the keeping you just edgy all the time is part of the trick! **Anne:** It is, yeah. **Amy:** It’s the whole thing! **Anne:** Trying to figure out what’s wrong and how you can help them is the trick with abusers. **Amy:** Absolutely. ## WHAT TO DO WHEN THE COUNTER PARENT USES TRUTH TO KEEP YOU STUCK **Anne:** It’s every part of it. You’ve probably heard me talk about the [Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). I keep talking about it, because it’s how women can take a step back and notice these are just shadows. This is not reality, because abuse and counter parenting is a character issue. Even if they’re telling the truth it’s on purpose to achieve a goal. Not because they care about you. **Amy:** It’s all a scheme. **Anne:** Exactly, so, when someone says to me, “At that point, he finally told me he had an affair.” Or at that point, he finally told me he was addicted to drugs. I’m like, he may have told you the truth, but it wasn’t the whole truth. And then why then? What benefit did it have for him at that moment? **Amy:** Correct, there was a moment at that 10 year mark. I had just come back from a writer’s thing. I did my laundry, exactly what I needed for four days sat there folded next to a suitcase. SoI went upstairs and put it in the suitcase, because the kids had gone to bed and came back downstairs. I said, “I’m going to leave. I’m going to stay in a hotel tonight. I’ll be back for the kids tomorrow.” If I could go back in time. Anne, there are many times from many years before then I could have gone, but if I could go back in time, that’d be the night. But what happened was the talk happened. And I said, “You’re saying the same stuff as you always say. Unless you have something new to say.” ## FALSE MENTAL ILLNESS AS AN EXCUSE **Amy:** And that’s when he hooked me in with, I really need to take care of him. Even more than I’d already done. But it was convenient. Like you said, “Why right then is he saying that? There’s a reason, and it’s usually to keep you there.” That’s it, period. Also because he’s called you a liar so many times. And once you’re gaslit for 28 years, you’re so hyper vigilant about telling the truth that you will tell the whole story, including every single detail. I do it all the time, drives me nuts. You’ll still believe the things that they say. I’m a few years divorced. And, I actually had 7 strokes in about 26 hours. **Anne:** Wow. **Amy:** I’m fine. I went to my physical therapy, I I got my right side back, everything works. **Anne:** I’m so glad you’re okay. **Amy:** I’m still a little weak, and I still use the cane if I’m feeling extra tired. But anyway, I’m fine. So because I’m a writer and artist. I have a beautiful group of colleagues and friends in the business. And also I’m a hundred percent self employed. It’s check to check. I don’t know how I do it, but when news went out that I had a stroke and they knew I was in the hospital, one of my friends started a GoFundMe. To fund the few months for recovery, and go to physical therapy, and learn how to use my right side again and balance. Same time, I was planning a few things for the summer. ## EXPERIENCING FINANCIAL ABUSE FROM COUNTER PARENTING **Amy:** My son and I were going to go to Europe. Once I was on the meds and my second checkup. I had said to the doc, “Is this dangerous or is this smart?” They’re like, “No, you’re good. You can do that. So we had to let Dad, know. And magically, about two weeks later, I got a child support review. And I’m like, that’s some pretty bad timing. He knows I’m going to be in Europe. He’s said, no, this is just because I don’t want to get into arrears. And I said, “Oh, how big was the raise you got?” And it wasn’t much. I really thought that he didn’t want to get into arrears until the phone call three months later. And he says something about the GoFundMe money. **Anne:** Ohhh!. **Amy:** It had nothing to do with his arrears. Let me get this straight. I’m 100 percent raising your child. Your wages are minimally garnished. Believe me, there were no lawyers involved in this. This is literally the minimum. And I am definitely paying, especially this year. Senior year, you’re paying so much more, but you came after the money my friends collected for me after I had a stroke and continued to raise your child. That is counter parenting. **Anne:** Yup. **Amy:** Like he had to help me get in and out of the car and you’re trying to take the little money we have. What is the issue? But by then I already knew. I knew this was a liar. But it still I swear it took me another two months. ## ABUSERS ALWAYS HAVE A GOAL **Amy:** One day I was just sitting here going, that’s why he brought that up. Now in hindsight, I can tell the story the way I just did. But in the middle, between the phone call hearing and two months after, I’ve been like, it was really weird. He asked about this, I can’t believe he asked about this.I’m like, girl, that is why he did it in the first place. What is it about you that believes people all the time? And it’s because I am a nice person. It’s that simple. **Anne:** Because they always have a goal, and you don’t know what that goal is. **Amy:** Right, it’s the scheme again. **Anne:** It’s so impossible, you’re not ever doing anything wrong. You’re just being a normal person. **Amy:** Keeping the house together, keeping the kids fed. I was pretty much the breadwinner for all those years. With the travel and just having to work all the time. He had more time to be with the kids to do his counter parenting. I have journals and wow, some of the things I wrote down. I look at it now and I’m like, wow, I believed that when I wrote it and that wasn’t true. The biggest thing I learned is how it is a mindset, how if someone’s always scheming, they’re always going to be scheming. It doesn’t matter whether they’re in the supermarket and they are shoplifting or if they are, getting a job but they’re lying about their past. If they’re trying to figure out how to fake a vaccination that they didn’t get so that they can go to work, or whatever the heck it is. ## WE ARE SAFE NOW **Amy:** Like, it’s always a scheme. It’s just how their brains work. **Anne:** Yeah, and they’ll scheme about things they don’t even need to scheme about. **Amy:** Exactly, and it gets worse. That was the one thing I didn’t understand. There’s so many things I love when you put your messaging out on Instagram and other places. When you say things like, “Once you figure out that you’re being abused, don’t tell the abuser he’s an abuser.” That is the best advice ever because you know what I did? I loaned, *Why Does He Do That* to my abuser. And then he learned more tricks. That’s all he learned from that book. It’s only going to get worse. We used to have a thing because of that book. I’m like, are you a 4% er or are you not a 4% er? I want to be a 4% er. I have texts and screenshots. While he was forcibly kissing so and so. Now I know what he was doing at that time, he will use all that stuff against you. He’s digging a hole or painting himself into a corner. But of course, he’s getting me to talk to him. So his digging is effective. I’m still talking to him about how he should or shouldn’t dig or paint himself into a corner and kind of going, Oh, you paint yourself into a corner. Instead of… **Anne:** Safety, **Amy:** Safety, exactly, yes. Thank you. Yes, exactly. That is why when I wake up in the morning, I do put my arms up and I’m like, yes! Every time because we are safe now. ## REALIZING I CAN’T DO IT ANYMORE WITH COUNTER PARENTING **Amy:** This is a person who, at times said certain things like, “I know why you’re terrified of me. I wasn’t going to kill you, kill you. I was hoping you’d do me the favor.” **Anne:** What? **Amy:** And you’re there like, wow. And he teamed up with other people. He looked for allies in his hatred for me. This is weird story but here you go. I lived in a farm in Ireland a long time and rats do a thing that mice don’t do. If a rat is caught in a trap, his family friends will pull that trap down into the hole and have him for dinner. And that’s kind of how I feel about the whole thing of counter parenting. That’s what you’re dealing with. But you’re like, I’m not dealing with that. This is a nice guy, the guy that loves me. But where is he showing it? I remember the day I realized like, Ooh. I can’t do this anymore. My mom and dad had just had their 60th anniversary. They both came from interesting backgrounds, but they did make it work. And, my father’s taking care of my mom while she’s in a bad state. Looking at what love really looks like, I couldn’t get sick, I’m sure there are people nodding right now. I wasn’t allowed to get sick. If I got sick, I was in trouble. It wasn’t that real overt stuff. It was always covert, it was always a little bit snide a little side eye. And looking at my dad love my mom so much. ## FINDING OUT WHAT REALLY HAPPENED **Amy:** It’s amazing. But I remember when they hit their 60th and my mom was talking to me. And I’m like, Oh I can’t get to 60, I can’t. I got out of there at 29, it just keeps getting worse and the lies get worse. And then, after, you walk away and find safety, you will learn a lot more about what really happened when you thought it was something else. Don’t feel foolish. It’s not your fault. **Anne:** Totally, with counter parenting. **Amy:** You didn’t do anything wrong. All you did was trust a person. There’s nothing wrong with that. **Anne:** Can you talk about where you were when you started writing *Pick the Lock*? Like your mindset, the process you went through to write it? **Amy:** Like any other book, it starts way earlier than when the actual writing starts. It started with a post-it note, “If you can imagine like a zigzag, you could imagine a hamster tube with two 45 degree bends. At one of those bends, there was a chair, and then it just said “system”. I made that post-it note when I realized, thanks to my kids being open with me. And talking to me about the things their father told them about me. I thought my narrative and who I was in my life was clear. But I didn’t realize that while I was in the kitchen, they could be pulled aside in the room right next to the kitchen and told terrible lies about me. And so they had to deal with that. Many, women are like, “Well, he’s a terrible husband, but he’s a great father.” ## POISONING & REDEFINING MY FAMILY **Amy:** And I will say again, those two things cannot coexist. Because that person is cruelly treating their mother in front of them. You, you can’t keep these things from the children. It’s not a woman’s fault to stay and try and try and try ’cause that’s what we do. People tell us to try. In reality, those kids know what’s going on. Then they’re sometimes extra confused. Because so often this is how counter parenting happens. I did not know how common it was until I started talking about it with people, groups, and other women. It turns out that this is something that’s quite common. So I wanted to write about it. Because that little hamster tube with the chair in it was me. It was the narrative. A visual representation of what it was like to not control my own narrative, even though I literally lived it. Like show, don’t tell, which is a real writing thing. You show, you don’t tell. So I lived it and showed it. I was the breadwinner. I was doing all these great things for my family. But while I was gone doing those great things to be able to feed my family. Someone who really wanted control and power over that narrative redefined my family. **Anne:** Almost poisoned. **Amy:** Yeah, absolutely. When you lie, when you lie to a child, I don’t care what it’s about. When you lie to a child for your own gain. That’s a certain kind of poison, no doubt. ## COUNTER PARENTING: THE BOOK IS TOLD THROUGH A 16 YEAR OLD’S VIEWPOINT **Anne:** Yeah, so I wanna talk about the book, without giving too much away. So I’ll only talk about what happened in the beginning, the motifs or symbolism. I think the tube situation is obvious, the symbolism there where you are separated and isolated, even though you’re still in the same home. **Amy:** Correct, you’re right there in the same room. You eat dinner with your family, but he isolates you through counter parenting. Absolutely, that’s part of it too, right? So it’s weird, those tubes represented so many things. This happens with books when you’re a writer. The longer you’re away from a book, the more you see in it. You’re like, oh, wow! I basically personified the patriarchy and then drowned it. That was satisfying. If only it was that easy in real life. The story starts with Jane, the story is told through a 16-year-old daughter’s point of view. And Jane has just discovered she calls them home movies. But it’s really security footage from inside her home for the last 20 years. It’s long before she was born. That’s when she starts seeing everything she heard about her family. Or even the person telling her, her father, everything she ever knew about her family was a lie. And she’s furious as anyone would be. I think that also represents what a lot of us go through once we separate and divorce or we walk away from somebody who’s been abusive. I honestly only yesterday, found out a new tidbit. It just keeps happening. ## SHE FINDS OUT THE TRUTH **Amy:** Anyway, Jane has access to a cloud. Where all these movies are, and the more movies she watches, she has to do what we all do. She has to question her memories. She’s like, Ooh, I know I was four when this one counter parenting thing happened. Or I know, I was this age when this one thing happened. And she’s going through that years’ footage and those particular rooms, ’cause there’s, four or five cameras that she’s aware of. She’s trying to find these memories she has. And she can’t find them or she finds partial ones, or most importantly, she keeps finding new ones that she doesn’t have as memories, but now they’re right there in front of her. And it really explains her parents’ relationship. It explains everything she blamed her mom for, because that’s what she was told to do. And encouraged to do. It shows the truth. The idea of people not believing you, and of doubting your own memories and all those things. It’s such a big deal. Over the decades I’ve been publishing, people will say, “Why do you write for teenagers?” And I’m like, “They’re not taken seriously.” So as a woman in this society, I can tell you that I have a lot in common with teenagers. I’m a woman. The story then goes on, her mother is in these tubes in the house. You nailed it. You can be at a table, and we know that we’re somehow not part of this family. And yet, we made this family. And we’re not welcome. I always felt unwelcome, I guess is a good way to put it. ## WOMEN HELP OTHER PEOPLE BEFORE WE HELP OURSELVES **Amy:** I was told so many things about how unlovable I was. And a lot of the lines said to Jane are verbatim, actually five of my journals. You’re so impossible to love. I think it’s important that we put it right out in the open. Because again, once I start talking about it, the amount of people that are like, “Oh yeah, that happened to me,” And it’s kind of wild, and it’s time to talk about it. But then I also think the tubes represent the thing that women do when we are in strife. We usually help other people. We help other people before we help ourselves. At least I know that’s true for me, and probably true for most of the women I know. But more importantly, we can take a prison and turn it into some kind of a win. We can take something terrible and somehow survive in it. Take a controlled environment, and we can make a win out of it as long as we work together. Women are the most willing caretakers of the patriarchy. **Anne:** Yeah, without us, it wouldn’t even exist. **Amy:** Correct, if we didn’t follow all the rules and if we weren’t pitted against each other. If we weren’t, trying to win the popularity contest at our places of choice, whether that be a church, just the neighborhood, in the family. I remember that at one point in my family, we have a few cousins and siblings. And I remember one of them going, “Well, you know, I did this first, I got married first.” What is that about? I got married first. What is it? [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## UPHOLDING AN OPPRESSIVE SYSTEM WITH COUNTER PARENTING **Amy:** What is, I have to have the baby first? I remember someone saying, “She kind of pressured me because she had to have a baby, right then.” And I’m like, why? But this is all patriarchy, this is all controlled. They have us pitted, and it’s the exact same. We have a larger model in the country of pitting. You pit people who are at the bottom against each other, and you can do whatever you want at the top. And that’s what we’re talking about inside a house and inside a culture. **Anne:** I think it’s important to point out that people back women into this corner. I really believe they’re trying to survive. And because they don’t know of any other way to survive, they don’t have the words for it. They don’t have the way to process the abuse and counter parenting. They are trying to succeed in the best way in the environment they are aware of. So it’s not like they’re not on their own side. It’s just that because they’re living in a house of mirrors or tubes or whatever metaphor we wanna use. Like, “I’m gonna be the best brownie maker here.” Because that’s the only world they have. So they uphold what they don’t know is a system oppressing them, but at least they are trying to succeed in that space. So giving women credit for how powerful and ingenious they are when they don’t know what’s going on, I think, is important. Because once they hopefully can wrap their heads around what is actually happening, I think that helps them say, whoa. whoa, whoa. If you need support from other women who have been through it, [attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session](https://www.btr.org/group/). ## INTERPRETING THE BOOK **Anne:** What I’ve been doing actually has not been for me, I’ve been exploited. And dealt with counter parenting. I love the quote from Maya Angelou, where she says, “Of course I’m a feminist. I’m a woman. Why would I not be on my own side?” I’m paraphrasing. I wanna talk about the symbolism of this Victorian home, because that was interesting to me. The juxtaposition between a Victorian home and all this Victorian furniture representing the past, I’m guessing. That’s another thing I love about literature. Even though you’re the author, I could have my own interpretation. **Amy:** That is the whole point. Once it leaves my desk, it’s up to you. And that is, you have to let go of the ownership. I actually just did a commencement speech at an art school on Friday, and I said, “What a relief. Once it’s on someone else’s wall, it’s not your business anymore.” They may say, “Oh, I’d love this painting of raindrops.” And it’s absolutely about the worst night of your life, but you can’t tell them that. They think it’s raindrops, who cares? But you’re right, it’s open interpretation. **Anne:** I did wanna talk to you about this part ’cause I had interpreted it this way and I’m very anxious and curious to hear what your thoughts are. But representing the past and this mother, whose vocation is rock star. She is popular culture. She’s a feminist. She fights against oppression, living every day. So this juxtaposition of this woman who is, I guess to the masses, someone who, and I’m seeing this in you a little bit. That this is, because you were kind of living this life. ## JUXTAPOSITION OF ROCK STAR AND VICTORIAN HOME **Anne:** Where you’re talking about feminism and trying to help women out while you’re living in an abusive relationship, but you didn’t know that you were. So I can definitely see the parallels there. But just having talked to you, I was like… **Amy:** Well, I don’t mind. **Anne:** Oh my word. I can see all this. But that was so fascinating to me, that juxtaposition between this woman who’s a rock star, who’s living in this Victorian home, and basically siloed there and silenced. Because of counter parenting and abuse. **Amy:** Okay. So the first thing you have to understand, Anne, is that I am a bit of a weirdo. I write books using the surrealist method, meaning I don’t know what the book is about until I start writing. Jane, the main character, she will show me the way. And that’s how it works. I have to follow her. So when suddenly there’s a rat talking in first person, I’m like, well, I suppose we’ll figure out who this rat is. We just move forward and hope to God we know. I had an idea of who the rat was. So it’s not like I’m going into it completely blindfolded, because as you write, you figure out what the book is about. But in the case of the Victorian thing, every time I tried to open this book, I tried the opening about three or four times, maybe more. And Jane had her name pretty early. And she kept coming out with this sort of twee proper Victorian voice. I was like, what is up with this? Like, this is not my voice. Usually I’m not that voice. And then one day, I explain the world explaining the writing process to people of all ages. ## COUNTER PARENTING: METAPHOR OF THE TUBES **Amy:** And I always say, ” Use your own anger. Anger is a big one. Use your sadness too. Sure, use your happiness, use your joy, use all those things. But something was said to me about God knows something. And if you’ve read the prologue? **Anne:** I have. Yeah. It was so good. I loved it. **Amy:** You’ll understand that, God knows, is a punch in the teeth. Because when you have someone say to you, who has no business saying what God knows. I’m sorry, regardless of my religion or any of that, like, God is a large, beautiful, wonderful, universal thing. No, you won’t, get that word outta your mouth. And so, I was angry, and I wrote four really bad poems. Then I was like, Ooh, and open up the file and just went. And that’s when Jane started. That’s when that formed. But more importantly. I could see Vernon, Jane’s father, in my mind’s eye, and I could see him with a pocket watch. He’s a fake, he’s a phony. And the mother inherited the Victorian house. And so it’s her family home and the tubes were already in it, you see? Because a generation before her, that man controlled his wife in that home. And then after he died, she got to hang out in that house with that woman. Never thinking she would be put into the tubes. And actually, that’s one of the things that Jane realizes too, at 16, oh crap, I’m next. So really it’s those tubes are a metaphor for so many things in counter parenting. ## EVERYTHING WAS PERFECT FROM THE OUTSIDE **Amy:** It really is being a woman trapped in the patriarchy. But I chose Victorian because it seemed perfect. It’s a perfect place to hide bad habits, because it’s so luscious. It’s got velvet curtains, beautiful style, big roomy rooms and high ceilings, and everything’s so proper. They serve dinner at the dining table, and they have a cook. It’s all these things that are so proper. It seemed the perfect setting. And doesn’t it from the outside? Always, The amount of people that have said to me, but I thought everything was perfect. Yes, that’s because I was covering and trying so hard. But no, it wasn’t perfect. And there’s that second home movie. Where he’s being so overly, we’re just gonna use the word love bombing. Because listeners will know what that means, but he is just being so overly like saccharine and sugary and laying it on so thick. And Jane, the narrator, has to say, you may think this man in this scene is taking place a hundred years ago. But actually, Mina’s in a pair of ripped up jeans and a ripped up t-shirt. It’s just this interesting way that he acts to hide everything, including himself. **Anne:** I loved how you portrayed him as shorter. And I did not get the impression he was like crazy attractive. I liked that about it. To me, it really spoke to how sneaky they are, I wanna say, they seem like such good, ordinary people. And that I found very compelling. **Amy:** That’s the point. I’m glad that came through the counter parenting. That makes me happy to hear. ## FINDING ALL THE LIES **Amy:** Because that is again, we go back to those home movies, we go back to this young woman who’s 16 and everything, she believes. And when in the home movies, she also shows how terrible she was based on this influence. So she treated her mom like garbage a lot. And she feels terrible for it, but at the time she thought she was absolutely doing the right thing. Because she was told, “Your mother doesn’t love you. Your mother wants to kill you. Your mother wants all these things.” And of course, she thinks, “Well screw her.” And she’s treating her in these ways, and now she’s finding it was bull all along. **Anne:** So it’s interesting that you describe the Victorian home as perfect. And I was, of course, layering my own experience onto what I read and how I interpret it. But in my mind, it was very dusty. There was too much stuff. Like an arrangement of dried flowers, for example. Or the curtains were just very heavy. Everything felt very oppressive to me. ‘Cause as I read it, I was getting kind of anxiety every time it was described. I just thought, oh, this place is stifling and suffocating. **Amy:** That’s perfect. It’s still decorated in Victorian, except I see the kitchen as modern in my head. I think it’s a perfect juxtaposition with this large Plexiglass tube in the corner. And the fact that there’s a woman in there. And if you really think about what that represents, especially in Jane’s world. Where, she for years looked over there and was so angry at this woman. Because of all these lies she was told about her. ## COUNTER PARENTING: CHILDREN & DIVORCE **Amy:** Then when she realizes she’s been lied to, then she’s terrified she’s gonna be the next person. I think that is a metaphor that spans many different types of fears that happen inside of young people’s heads when they’re in that space. I just got off of a different interview, and I was talking about this moment. My son came home one time and talked about what it’s like to be children of divorced parents. And then he said, “Well, then there’s the other group.” I’m like, oh, “What’s the other group?” He said, “Children of parents who should be divorced.” And he goes, “I remember being in that group, and I’m glad I’m in this group now.” He was probably 14 or so when he said that, he is like, “’cause that group is sadder. They’re more scared. They’re in a space where everything’s still some kind of limbo. At least here there’s been some type of closure.” It’s quite a powerful conversation to have with a young person who’s that self-aware. And also that aware of their surroundings and counter parenting. I know there’s obviously children of fantastic families, that everything’s functioning correctly. I don’t wanna only categorize the two, but that’s how he did. And teenagers often go very black and white. And that’s what he said. I found it interesting that they truly have these conversations. Gen Z is so smart. And they are very aware. Children are incredibly resilient. The biggest fear I had once I had children was, children have to have two parents. And that’s what I was told many times. That this is the way it works. ## A CHILD NEEDS ONE SOLID PARENT **Amy:** And then more than one person has said to me, no, no, a child needs one solid parent. And they’re gonna be okay. Hearing that over and over again, and knowing that I’m solid. I’m not here looking to have relationships right now. I have to parent, that is my job. **Anne:** In that way, I didn’t think of it until you were just describing this, but that Victorian setting also kind of represents a level of maturity that a child can gain from this environment. **Amy:** Oh yes, the parentification, absolutely. **Anne:** It’s like an old wisdom that they’ll have, wisdom beyond their years, that kind of a thing. **Amy:** Yep, and not the kind you want them to have, but it’s sadly what they get. Both my kids, wise beyond their years. Because, part of their childhood never happened. Because they were so busy listening for footfalls and whether they were angry, footfalls. Whether they were sneaky counter parenting footfalls, they were so busy trying to figure out, is this person walking up or down the steps? Going to do something erratic? And on the other side, looking at mom being like, what’s gonna be her excuse today? And it sounds harsh, I know that, but it’s also very real. Kids are honest. As much we peg them as liars, same as women. We go back to what I have in common with teenagers. In actual fact, I think that everyone’s closest to the truth. Outta the mouth, the babes we say. I remember the first time I sat the kids down and said, “There’s gonna be a separation.” ## WE NEED TO GIVE CHILDREN CREDIT **Amy:** And my eldest said, “Oh God, I’ve been waiting for this since I was seven.” And I just thought, “Oh my gosh, take note of that. Take note of the guts it took to say that out loud, at that time.” Which have been considered inappropriate, but not really. This is, however old she was at the time, 13-year-old or something. So the first thing I think we have to discuss when it comes to young people is that A, we don’t give them a lot of credit. It’s one of the reasons I’m a fierce advocate for teenagers. With counter parenting going on. We take things away from them versus giving them credit. But more importantly, we would have maybe taken a comment like that out of context and said, classic dramatic thing for a teenager to say. But in actual fact, she was serious. She saw things since she was seven that made her go, this isn’t cool. She was getting pulled aside and having things said to her about me, but I didn’t know that then. And I don’t know what else. When you’re in it, you can’t figure out what to do, especially because it is so confusing. You’re so confused, mostly because this person is looking at you, saying, no, I really am that guy that I was. And then it acts differently, or I really do love you, but then does something fiercely not loving. So it’s just constant confusion, because you’re trying to make sense of something that doesn’t make sense. And the reason it doesn’t make sense is because they’re lies. That’s why, because you’re being lied to. **Anne:** A hundred percent. ## COUNTER PARENTING WITH SECRETS **Amy:** It’s kind of amazing when we look at children and how unbelievably mature they are. And that Victorian setting and what eventually we learn happens to the little brother. I haven’t mentioned Henry yet. Since we have listeners who have not read this book, little brothers named Henry. He’s a few years younger than Jane. And Henry, because it’s Victorian times. He’s treated well because he’s a boy, isn’t he? And he’s Vernon’s boy, but he is not given the secrets. So this is another part of what we’re talking about when it comes to counter parenting. We’ve got the parent who’s in control of the family. Who’s like, “I’ll let you in on a secret.” So that’s where the lies come to. “Let me tell you about your mother. Lemme tell you about this stuff, or these stories.” But more importantly, they’re let in on things that they shouldn’t be let in on too early. So whether it be, Hey, have a sip of my beer. Or do you wanna toke off this joint, or do you wanna try cigarettes or whatever it is. I don’t have another word for it, that’s just grooming. That happens so often in families like ours. Where it’s just, grooming is to get control period, that’s the point. It’s not there to get someone to think for themselves. Because an author for young people whose books have been banned. that word is thrown at me, and I’m like, “Listen, I write the book to help kids see themselves in books.” That’s it. And to talk about the truth. But that word is thrown at me. I’m not trying to control anybody. ## FINDING SOLUTIONS **Amy:** But when someone tells me what my kids can read, oddly enough, that’s you trying to control somebody. And that’s what grooming is for. Henry, is, very obviously groomed by his father, and is the favorite simply because he’s a boy, but is also very openly neglected. And is a tragedy in the making really, with counter parenting. I see him doing okay once the bad influence is out of the house and away from him. But what that man did, it’s the collateral damage. It’s the stray bullet. He may be aiming at the women in the house, right? Because he hates women. We need to get down to the fact that so many men hate women. If they don’t face it, talk about it and correct it in a way that makes them somehow compatible with women. They’re gonna ruin the women that they’re with. **Anne:** Well, it’s bad for everyone. It’s not just bad for women. It’s really bad for them too, because that’s 50% of the population that they don’t take seriously. **Amy:** There’s that. And if we get into the patriarchy, the men suffer. I don’t wanna say they suffer more from it, but we’re really used to it. So women are really used to it. We’re like, “Yeah, I know my place. I know they’re gonna tell me what to do. They’re gonna take away my healthcare. I know they’re gonna do these things to try and control me.” And we tend to find great ways through. We figure out how to get around these things so that we can continue going to college. We find solutions. ## HANDLING PATRIARCHY **Amy:** As people who raise whole families while also doing 12 other things. We all know we’re the problem solvers. **Anne:** Also from behind the scenes, we’re solving all the problems, just not getting the credit for it. **Amy:** Correct, I don’t wanna say we can handle the patriarchy, but we’ve lived in it so long. Men on the other hand, fare terribly from the patriarchy. The lies they’re told from the beginning of time limit them so much. I met a young man recently, and he was very distraught, upset. I said, “Hey, yo, what’s going on?” He started to cry. He said, “My father told me that I’m if I cry.” And I was like, “Well, your father was wrong. You can cry. Here’s a tissue.” Gave him a big hug. And he really couldn’t tell me what was wrong with him without putting himself down at least 20 times, just for having emotions. And I thought, he’s 30. This human being can’t process grief, which was legitimate at that moment, without hurting himself, because the men in his life and culture told him all the wrong things. Along with counter parenting. In books, I put a scene there, where boys list who they wanna kiss. And it’s a secret list. And then they run up to them and kiss ’em without permission to runaway. Now, I was kid in the seventies. This happened all the time, happened to my kids. My kids both got, same thing. Boy runs up to him, bam, kisses them. Maybe it’s a dare. This stuff comes early in life. If some second grader is running toward my child to kiss my child because he likes her, someone missed an opportunity to tell their child that’s not what happens. ## COUNTER PARENTING: LONELINESS EPIDEMIC **Amy:** You don’t do that. But this is what the culture is. And especially once she has your babies, you own her. She has to do what you say and act the way you want. If every five minutes what you want changes is she somehow has to keep up with that. I felt like I was tap dancing for three decades. We get these headlines about the male loneliness epidemic. Or what you believe women owe you. I’m like, no offense, but maybe if you’d stop being terrible. **Anne:** Yeah sorry, I can’t stand those articles. And with counter parenting, I’m like, what in the world is happening? **Amy:** I’d like to ask, a bunch of married women if there’s a loneliness epidemic for married women. There’s an epidemic for you. There’s been centuries of married women who are lonelier than ever. Maybe if men looked after that, maybe if that was written about. Men would go, “Oh.” But they wouldn’t, because the culture tells them to go phffft. And then women say anything. It’s all a trap, and we’re all trapped in it. Every single one of us, every woman, man, child, everybody, every person is trapped in it. It’s a construct. And this is one of the reasons I live in a little artist’s bubble. **Anne:** Speaking of the prologue, hit me really hard. Because the book that I’m writing is all about lies. I know I talk about how pornography is abusive but it really does, and my whole book is about this, come down to the lies. ## LIES ON TOP OF LIES **Anne:** Because if they didn’t lie, then he would say, “Hi, I am only interested in you because you have this Victorian home that has these tubes, and I know that if I marry you, I can use you for all this and I can stick you in one of them. So you seem like the perfect wife for me.” **Amy:** Yes. **Anne:** “Do you wanna marry me?” That would be the truth. And then she could say, “No, I don’t.” But the whole thing is built on lies, lies on top of lies. In my book, I say this one part, “Let’s just talk about pornography without the lies. Because they lie to us about porn or their affairs or other things that they’re lying to us about. Then I’m like, wait, the whole pornography industry is a lie. There are so many layers of lies on top of lies. And without the lies, we could give consent. Some women might choose that, but so many women would be like, “I don’t want to marry you. If you have a mistress that you live with in an apartment.” **Amy:** Anne, I need to tell you, it was your Instagram that made me understand informed consent in such a great way. And it really changed my mind about what I’d been living through. And realizing how many women are lied to, but also having sexual relationships with people who are lying to them. Therefore, they are not informed, so that consent is null. And in the future, when they learn about the lies, all of those experiences are going to have a different flavor. ## TOLD THE TRUTH FROM THE BEGINNING **Amy:** And it will feel exactly what it felt at the time, but you couldn’t say it out loud. **Anne:** Right, it felt like that, but because you didn’t understand what was happening. You defined it the best way that you could. Maybe you put a silver lining on it. Maybe you explained this is how it works because you had no other way to process it. So in your processing it to empower yourself, which was your intention, it just played into the lies without you knowing. Which is so unfortunate, but that’s their intent. That’s what they want. **Amy:** Absolutely, the lie is everything. And that’s why the book starts with the lies. The older I get, the more I realize this. And I remember hitting my forties and going, oh, and now I’m in my fifties. I’m like, oh, this doesn’t end. Everything’s about the lies that we’re taught. And on a larger level in the culture in our families, before we get into a relationship, and then inside the relationship with counter parenting. But I love how you said if they just told the truth from the beginning, imagine they were like, look, I just wanna piss my wife off and you’re under 40. And I think that if we dated, that would work out great. And in a way, sometimes I appreciate the guys on online dating. They’re like, I’m just into fun casual dates. That’s code. And we know it. But some of them actually mean it literally, that’s the funny part. They don’t realize that there’s other men out there who don’t mean it that way. I appreciate that they can at least admit it. ## COUNTER PARENTING: THE GUY YOU MARRIED NEVER EXISTED **Amy:** Something that my mother said to me. Her father was a severe alcoholic. He died of complications from alcoholism. He was also an abusive man. She said to me, “Amy, my father wasn’t an abuser because he was an alcoholic. He was an alcoholic because he was an abuser.” **Anne:** Yeah. **Amy:** And when you take someone who’s a truly benevolent human being. Who really just believes in the good in people, wants to have a great family, wants to be a great wife, wants to buy the Christmas gifts, and you put them with someone who is so callously lying all the time. She has to see a person she fell in love with. Always like you’re looking for the guy you married. He never existed, it wasn’t real. And that is a really hard thing to come to terms with, because you remember it. I have a bonus of having kept journals my whole life. And I always said the first year was the one good year I had. It’s packed with all these notes and love letters. And I pulled one of them out and in it, in that year one, it was me pleading for forgiveness, for having hormones. Now, I was raised in a family where three girls and my mother was a high ranking administrator in a school system. You did not use hormones as an excuse ever. And that’s not for me to take it away from people who have, definite mood swings because of hormones. The fact that’s held against us is ridiculous, ’cause look at the erratic, hormonal swings of men. But I really didn’t have those sorts of swings. ## JOURNAL HELPS DETERMINE WHAT REALLY HAPPENED **Amy:** I can check what happened in year one. Look, it wasn’t as great as I thought it was. He was already grooming me to start blaming everything on me and all the responsibility. Also, I can see all the moves of isolation. So, that is the one thing that did get me to see what was going on . I wrote down every time anything happened that made me feel terrible, degraded me, or was abuse. And when I started keeping a log, it was very obvious what had to happen. This is why I think abusers keep you so busy. **Anne:** Yeah, so you can’t notice. I was gonna tell you, so my book, that I am almost done writing, I am more of a essay writer. So writing an actual 350 page book was like the worst, I have to say. I think you’re amazing. But, it’s the reason why. When you said, “I’d love someone to research.” Over the past year, I went through all of my podcast interviews again and listened to them. Like a research study. So based on all those interviews and all my experience with our clients and interacting with women over the years. I’m almost done. I really wanna get it right. **Amy:** And it’s good for research too. Getting it right is the thing. **Anne:** The whole thing including counter parenting is just about the lies. **Amy:** Amen, thank you. That’s great. You’ve brought to me in this podcast just today, the lies, right? No matter what, no matter how many times I go through it, or how many times I think about it, the lies that you find out about afterward are unbelievable. ## THERE ARE PEOPLE IN THE WORLD WHO WANT TO USE YOU **Amy:** You could have said to me, would he ever do this? I would’ve said, never in my life will he do that. What’s interesting is that he probably said, oh, well she did that, never did that. I travel for a living. I had the opportunity to cheat a million times. Never did, not like I had the opportunity. I never looked for it. I’m sort of a dork who wants to be in my hotel room by myself. And it’s cool to order room service, and then I work. That’s it, I work. So I don’t wanna do that. Most people think that other people think like they do. And one of the things I get asked, “What do you wish you knew when you were our age?” I said, “This is gonna sound heavy, but I mean it too. And you guys are teenagers, so you’re gonna get it . Here’s the deal. Everybody tells you to give everybody the benefit of the doubt, especially if you happen to be born female. You wanna give everybody the benefit of the doubt. You have to be nice, kind, sweet to everybody. And you have to accept all this behavior. And anybody who’s being rude, they just don’t mean it. Anybody who’s being mean, they just don’t mean it. They don’t know how mean they’re being. That’s not true. What’s true is that there are people in the world that want to hurt you, break you down, make you theirs, control you, lie about you, use counter parenting, and they wanna use you. The sooner you know that, the better. Because I didn’t figure that out till I was 50.” ## COUNTER PARENTING: NOBODY KNEW WHAT TO DO **Amy:** And not just when it came to my romantic life, there were other people in my life who were very close to me, since I was a very young person who were doing that to me. So everything’s a lie. Why is it so hard to get help? When I finally had the guts to pick up the phone and I was 3,000 miles away from home, isolated and call the people closest to me. Whether they were family or friends, and say to them, but especially the family, this is what’s happening. This is what’s really going on. I don’t know what to do, I need help. I need to get out of here. Nobody knew what to do. **Anne:** Right, exactly. **Amy:** That’s why Mina, Jane’s mother, does what she does. She helps people because nobody knew what to do. And it was as simple as send me a plane ticket. And I didn’t know to ask that though. I didn’t know to say I need a plane ticket. I’d only just said this for the first time after seven or eight years of this. And at that point, I was so beaten down as a human being, completely didn’t even know who I was anymore. And I’m a strong, confident person, always have been in so many ways. I had no idea what to ask for, and no one knew what to offer. And if I could tell women out there, listen, the minute you’re 15 years old, this is what happens. They’re all your sisters. I don’t even care if they were the one competing with you yesterday. I don’t care if they were the one that was putting you down yesterday. ## WE NEED TO HELP OTHER WOMEN **Amy:** If they say, yo, I’m in this situation. What do I do? We all learn the answer. And try and help other women out because the more I am in the world, and the more I realize that this is way more common than the other, the perfect ideal relationship is a beautiful thing. I know a few people in it, and is it the hardest work they ever did? Absolutely, man, it doesn’t come easy. But they have two adult people working toward the same thing. That is rare. That’s what I’m finding. The older I get, now that I can eat the senior meal at the diner. And I can tell you what, man, I don’t know many people who are in that situation, most are not. **Anne:** Yeah, I could talk to you forever. You are incredible. So I’m like, oh, I can’t wait to talk to you again. Thank you so much for coming on today’s episode to talk about counter parenting. **Amy:** Anne, I’m always so happy to be on your side. Yeah, you’re doing great work. Thank you for what you do. Really in a huge way. And thanks for the conversation. You’re awesome, you rock. To be on this show and to be part of anyone’s journey to healing. It’s the most important thing in the world, fiction helps. Thank you **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast **Tags:** emotional abuse, How Do I Set Boundaries, husband lying --- ### [Before Scheduling "Couples Therapy Near Me" Here's What You Need to Know](https://www.btr.org/intensive-couples-therapy-near-me/) **Published:** January 13, 2026 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Considering couple's therapy to save your marriage? Here's what you need to know before you start. **Content:** Has your husband betrayed your trust, lied to you, or left you feeling confused about what’s really happening? Many women think, *“Maybe we just need couples therapy near me to fix this.”* It makes perfect sense to want support when the marriage feels unstable. But here’s what most women don’t learn until much later: After interviewing over 200 women who experienced their husband’s betrayal, I discovered that couple therapy often makes things worse if he has a history of lying. Many women told me they walked out feeling even more confused than they were when they walked in. Before you schedule couples therapy near me, here’s what you need to know. ## WHY COUPLES THERAPY NEAR ME OFTEN BACKFIRES AFTER BETRAYAL Any couple therapy, whether it’s near you or if you do in online, is designed for two people who are honest, transparent. But when betrayal or deception happened, couple therapy sessions tend to shift in the wrong direction. Women describe: - feeling talked in circles - being treated as if both partners contributed equally - having their concerns minimized - leaving sessions with more confusion instead of clarity Instead of addressing the real issue, his choices, his patterns, and his secrecy, therapy often redirects the focus onto “communication skills,” or “relationship dynamics.” Meanwhile, the woman is still left without the one thing she needs most: Answers. Consider taking my [free after infidelity email course](/after-infidelity-free-email-course/). ## WHAT YOU NEED BEFORE LOOKING FOR COUPLES THERAPY NEAR ME Before you sit in a room with a couples therapist near you and try to explain what’s been happening, you need a clear, simple framework for understanding: - what his behavior actually means - the signs that indicate whether therapy will help—or harm That’s why I created the **Clarity After Betrayal** workshop. It’s the resource over 200 women I interviewed told me they desperately needed *before* spending months or years in therapy that didn’t address the real problem. The videos series helps you: - understand the patterns behind gaslighting and mixed messages - stop second-guessing what you’re experiencing - see your situation clearly, without anyone minimizing it - be confident about your next steps If you’re trying to figure out whether couples therapy near me will help your marriage, the workshop is the essential first step. **[👉 Clarity After Betrayal ($27)](https://www.btr.org/clarity/)** ## TRANSCRIPT: CONSIDERING LOOKING FOR COUPLES THERAPY NEAR ME? WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW **Anne:** I have a member of our community on today. We’re going to call her Ruby. Welcome, Ruby. **Ruby:** Thank you, Anne. I feel privileged to be here and to help other women in my situation feel like they’re not alone. **Anne:** Let’s start with your story. **Ruby:** We met through a mutual friend who now completely sees what he is and feels devastated for me. He once told me he wanted to pursue someone else and realized I was easier to con. **Anne:** Wow. **Ruby:** Her parents were stable, and mine weren’t. She had an aware mother and a really good dad. For me, scripture influenced my choices in a way that made me believe I couldn’t leave my home unless I was married. **Anne:** Looking back, you realize that wasn’t true? **Ruby:** Correct. Technically I could have left, but heavy condemnation surrounded any thought of it. People insisted that leaving without being married “wouldn’t be of God.” We met when I was 19, and he used church language, God, and scripture to present himself as someone who wanted the same family life I wanted. I thought I was choosing a righteous man. He acted fun, lively, and said all the right things. I had no reason then to imagine I might one day start searching for clarity or wondering if a couples therapy near me could help. ## EARLY RED FLAGS EVEN BEFORE THINKING ABOUT COUPLES THERAPY NEAR ME **Ruby:** The long-distance relationship made his con easier because he controlled what I saw. He always said our time together was “time well spent.” That illusion made it harder for me to question things later. Fourteen months later we married, and I became pregnant. He pressured me into premarital sex, something I never wanted because of my values. That pressure created shame that stayed with me for years. **Ruby:** My family felt devastated, and people shunned me. He never carried any of that shame. That contrast should have warned me long before I ever wondered whether a couples therapy near me could help make sense of what was happening. **Anne:** Many women describe that same pressure. They don’t recognize it as coercion until much later. The so-called “righteous man” eventually uses the shame against them for years. **Anne:** Was that true for you? **Ruby:** Yes. He used anything he could to break me down. He recognized my guilt and took advantage of it. ## THE PATTERN OF “LUCID MOMENTS” THAT CREATED MORE CONFUSION **Ruby:** Sometimes he had what I call lucid moments. Once he admitted our premarital sex was his fault. Weeks later, he denied ever saying it. He always knew the truth, but he twisted it whenever it served him. Those moments confused me and made it harder to see the bigger pattern, something a couples therapy near me would likely misinterpret as miscommunication. **Anne:** They sometimes drop a tiny bit of truth to manipulate. Then they pretend they never knew it. **Ruby:** Exactly. He did that for years. He once told me the kids and I would be better off with another man, then denied it the next day. His motives were calculated and passive-aggressive. He wanted me to look unstable. **Anne:** Do you think he sometimes told the truth so you would be the one to take action and then he could blame you? **Ruby:** Yes. He wanted me to feel responsible for everything while he stayed in control. ## HIS IMAGE VS. HIS PRIVATE BEHAVIOR **Ruby:** Early on, he told me he’d been wild in the Navy but stopped drinking after waking up on a bathroom floor. That was fine with me because it wasn’t like I went to parties all the time. He wanted to look reformed. He claimed he had never slept with anyone before, but then he hinted at inappropriate situations, like a coworker undressing in front of him. I believed him because he framed those stories as accidents instead of choices. Later the military discharged him, and he tried to blame everyone else. Looking back, the pattern stood out clearly, and no couples therapy near me could have fixed a man committed to deception. I don’t believe he was a virgin when we met. He used the idea of “we made this mistake together” to bind me to him. Now I see that as another lie. **Anne:** That’s very likely. **Ruby:** Yes. ## WHAT RUBY FIRST BELIEVED ABOUT THE PROBLEMS IN THE MARRIAGE **Anne:** Let’s go back in time for a moment. What did you think the problems were back then? Did you believe he was stressed at work, overwhelmed, or dealing with normal marriage challenges? **Ruby:** I thought the good outweighed the bad. He acted very family-oriented and talked about caring for his parents. So I assumed everyone had flaws, and as long as more things went right than wrong, we were okay. **Anne:** Did you ever think it was your fault? Did you ever think, “If I do this better, maybe he won’t get upset”? **Ruby:** During dating, no. He acted like the stable one and framed me as emotional or overly excited about things. He positioned himself as the grounding force in my life, someone steady. ## CONFUSION GROWING BEFORE EVER CONSIDERING COUPLES THERAPY NEAR ME **Ruby:** Looking back, he probably did things I couldn’t see, but he made it seem like he was strong and I was the one who needed correction. That dynamic made me less likely to question the confusion. **Anne:** As the relationship progressed and you thought, “This is just his personality,” did you reach a point where you sought help? Did you consider counseling, clergy, or even looking up a couples therapy near me? **Ruby:** Oh yes, absolutely. He’s adopted and has an adopted sibling, and he used that as an excuse to say counseling ruined him. He strongly insisted, “I don’t do counseling,” and blamed his parents for forcing him into it. ## THE FIRST ATTEMPTS AT COUNSELING & HOW THEY FAILED **Ruby:** I should have noticed the contradiction between how he presented himself as family-oriented and how he criticized his parents every day. He claimed I was “against them,” even though he constantly complained about them. I mean [my husband was constantly angry](/husband-is-constantly-angry/). Our first counseling attempt went terribly. He resisted the idea from the start, and convincing him took a lot of energy. The couple leading the session didn’t have the skills to guide us. They asked us to take compatibility tests, and I thought, “We’re already married. Why does that matter now?” Then they focused on our sex life, which felt intrusive and irrelevant. We ended up stopping because it helped nothing. Many women don’t realize marriage counseling can actually worsen things, even before they search for a couples therapy near me. An abusive partner can twist counseling into another weapon. ## HE FINALLY AGREED TO COUNSELING — AND USED IT AGAINST HER **Ruby:** When he finally agreed to counseling, he loved it because he controlled the narrative. He pretended to want help, but he shut down every real issue I raised. When I tried to talk about his behavior toward our son, he became angry and defensive. When you go into counseling with someone who mistreats you, the counselor often assumes you’re dealing with ordinary “marriage problems.” They focus on communication or stress instead of harmful behavior. Their assumptions end up protecting him. **Anne:** Exactly. They think you’re not communicating well or not having enough sex or that he needs anger management. They misidentify the entire issue right from the start, and once they do, the help becomes harmful. ## MISDIAGNOSIS AND THE LIMITS OF COUPLES THERAPY NEAR ME **Anne:** In my case, people assumed pornography addiction caused all the problems. That might have been part of it, but it wasn’t the thing destroying my marriage. Most therapists don’t recognize abuse even when you describe it clearly. The average therapist misses the pattern, and even when they see pieces of it, they often don’t know how to respond. They default to generic couples therapy tools and say, “Let’s explore your childhoods” or “Let’s work on communication,” while the real issue continues unchecked. You don’t know what’s actually happening, and the professionals you seek also don’t know. This happens constantly when a woman’s husband controls the narrative in therapy. **Ruby:** Yes, exactly. They need to ask better questions. **Anne:** That’s why I put together **[Clarity After Betrayal](https://www.btr.org/clarity/)**. So women could know what to expect *before* they schedule with couples therapy near me. The workshop includes what more than 200 women told me they wish they had known. It’s only $27 and gives answers years faster (and much cheaper) than couples therapy. ## RELIGIOUS MESSAGING MADE RUBY THINK COUPLES THERAPY WOULD HELP **Ruby:** I heard my mom say many times, “I made my commitment under God, to God, in my marriage, no matter what your dad does.” That belief created such heavy bondage for her, and it breaks my heart when I think about it now. **Anne:** When I first started podcasting, I felt scared and confused and fought to keep my vows at all costs. I prayed, fasted, and hoped things would change because I didn’t want to disappoint God. Now I feel the opposite because I believe God wants women to separate from evil and harm. Many women say God nudged them years earlier, but clergy gave them poor advice that kept them trapped. I hear that pattern again and again. Here’s an [example of emotional abuse](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/) if that helps. ## WHEN RUBY REALIZED COUPLES THERAPY WASN’T HELPING **Ruby:** I remember driving home and dreading walking through my own door. I took the kids everywhere because being alone with him created constant anxiety. Even errands felt safer. Around that time, we also got a puppy, and the responsibility overwhelmed me. I kept praying for direction because nothing made sense, and I felt exhausted trying to hold everything together. Then he left on his own. He packed his car two days before Father’s Day and didn’t try to hide it. I begged him to wait because the kids had made him gifts. He looked at me and said, “I don’t need any more meaningless crap,” and drove away. At the end of that month, God spoke to me clearly and said, “Enough. You’re done. Let him go.” Something inside me shifted immediately. It felt like God lifted him out of my heart. I finally felt space to breathe. In the beginning, everything felt raw, and I couldn’t see beyond that moment. I had just started seeing the truth of what I lived through. I didn’t yet realize how much clarity would come later—long before couples therapy near me could have helped. ## FOR WOMEN WHO FEEL GUILTY ABOUT COUPLES THERAPY MAKING THINGS WORSE **Ruby:** For any woman who feels condemnation, I want her to know this: you didn’t break your vow. Your husband’s choices broke the marriage. You still have value, dignity, and worth. You’re not damaged goods in God’s eyes. You never were. I speak out to help women stop blaming themselves for harm they didn’t cause. You’re not breaking up your family. His choices already did that. Pretending everything was fine only deepened the damage. Staying silent gave him protection, not me. As he grew more volatile and irrational, I grew more afraid of doing the wrong thing. He trained me to manage his world so he didn’t have to regulate himself. I handled the home, the kids, and every detail. Because I carried that load, he told others I acted controlling. That projection confused me for years. No couples therapy near me could have revealed those dynamics without seeing the truth behind closed doors. ## THE SOCIAL BACKLASH WHEN COUPLES THERAPY FAILS **Ruby:** I think many of us fear that people won’t understand and will condemn us for doing the right thing. A friend of mine was labeled a “husband basher” simply for describing her reality. Their mutual friends didn’t want that truth. I knew she wasn’t bashing him. She was finally naming what harmed her. But when others feel invested in maintaining a certain image of him, they reject anything that disrupts their version of the story. They want to believe you just didn’t complete the therapist’s assignments. **Anne:** Or they simply don’t believe you. They believe the man who lies and manipulates because it’s easier. It happens far too often and leaves women feeling isolated. This is so common when you are dealing with [your abusive husband’s therapist](https://www.btr.org/your-abusive-husbands-therapist/ "your abusive husband's therapis"). ## HEALING WITHOUT COUPLES THERAPY NEAR ME Writing became a meaningful part of your healing process. It let you express your pain. Even though we aren’t sharing your writing today, I know it helped you see truths you couldn’t say out loud yet. **Ruby:** It really did. Writing helped me turn pain into something I could see and understand. For years I felt split because I tried to serve two masters and live two different lives. I tried to serve God while staying united with someone who wasn’t walking toward God at all. Nothing he did aligned with God. That realization revealed how much confusion I carried. ![This Is Why Couple Therapy Doesn't Work](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/eTzRfKboinw/maxresdefault.jpg) When separation happened, something settled inside me. For the first time in years, I felt aligned with God again. Couples therapy near me couldn’t have created that shift because it required honesty, not mediation. ## HOW WOMEN CAN GET EDUCATION BEFORE TRYING COUPLES THERAPY **Ruby:** Women should ask themselves: Are you living with constant turmoil? Do you feel torn between serving God and staying united with your husband? That inner conflict signals something deeper. The clarity journey is long and exhausting, but essential. Building community supports you through the confusion. Strong community helps you stay grounded when things feel heavy. **Anne:** Thank you so much. Your story and courage will help so many women who feel alone. Your willingness to share matters. **Ruby:** Thank you for having me. It has been my privilege. ## HOPE FOR WOMEN MOVING FORWARD **Ruby:** The only thing I want women to know is this: don’t assume this is the end. Your life isn’t over, even if it feels that way. **Anne:** It’s true. Beautiful and meaningful things still lie ahead, even when the path feels difficult. **Ruby:** Thank you. And thank you for giving women a place to find real answers before spending years in couples therapy. ![Will Intensive Couples Therapy Help](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/couple-therapy-help-abuse.webp "Couple Therapy Help Abuse") **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [If You Think Your Husband Ia Lying, Read This](https://www.btr.org/my-husband-is-lying-to-me/) **Published:** January 20, 2026 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** If things aren't adding up, here's how to know if he's lying. **Content:** If you have a feeling that your husband is lying, and giving you versions of stories aren’t the whole truth, you’re probably wrestling with a quiet ache that is becoming impossible to ignore. After interviewing over **200 women** who discovered that their husbands had been lying about affairs, double lives, and addictions for years, almost all of them said that they wished they’d had “*help getting to clarity about what was really going on sooner*.” ## IF YOU THINK YOUR HUSBAND IS LYING, LOOK FOR PATTERNS The women I interviewed on the **Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast** described the same unmistakable patterns: ### **1. ODD PAUSES** IN CONVERSATIONS If you’ve ever asked a seemingly simple question about his schedule or who he was texting and it’s followed by a blank look, a delayed answer, a strange shift in his tone, or a question about your intentions, pay attention. If your husband is lying, it’s likely he’s using these tactics to buy some time for choosing the details to share that will be just enough to keep the truth hidden from you. ### **2. THE “YOU’RE OVERREACTING” DEFLECTION** It’s not unreasonable to ask clarifying questions when conversations are confusing, but if your husband is lying it’s likely that he’ll redirect the focus onto your tone, timing, or memory so you’ll stop questioning any inconsistencies in *his* stories. ### **3. HE MAINTAINS A POLISHED IMAGE** Many women who discovered that their husband was lying also noted that he was charming and respected in their community, which made it even more difficult for her to get clarity. His “great guy” public image left most women feeling more isolated than the lying itself, because they knew it would be hard for people to believe he would lie to her. ## FINDING CLARITY WHEN YOU THINK YOUR HUSBAND IS LYING If your husband is lying, he’s most likely consistently creating moments of confusion to keep you off balance and doubting. That doubt isn’t a flaw…it’s a *signal*. Before you engage in one more circular conversation, or a couple therapy session that leaves you doubting yourself even more, try this: My **Clarity After Betrayal Workshop ($27)** gives women the exact tools they need to find clarity, fast. It helps you: - recognize when his answers create confusion - stop second-guessing yourself - see what’s actually going on in your marriage - know your next steps with confidence Without knowing these things, it’s common for the pattern of lies and confusion to continue even inside couple therapy or programs designed to help him be more honest. [👉 **Get Clarity After Betrayal**](https://www.btr.org/clarity/) ## TRANSCRIPT: I THINK NY HUSBAND IS LYING TO ME **Anne:** I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’ll call her Stacey. Welcome, Stacy. **Stacey:** Thank you. It’s great to be here. **Anne:** Did you recognize your husband’s behaviors as abuse when you began your relationship with him? **Stacey:** No, not at all. You were the first one that made me ever consider it abusive, just from listening to your podcasts. Before that, it had never even crossed my mind **Anne:** Let’s start with that. What types of behaviors were you experiencing that led you to want some help? What made you think,”My husband is lying to me?” **Stacey:** Well, he had an affair. About five years after the affair, things weren’t moving forward. I couldn’t figure out why. And that is the first time I heard the term gaslighting. And that’s when I started to search more for answers. I realized the extent of what had happened, and how I had been emotionally, psychologically, and spiritually abused, I mean everything he said was practically an [example of emotional abuse](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). Just the extreme gaslighting that had gone on and was still going on. **Anne:** Learning [how abusers gaslight](https://www.btr.org/how-do-abusers-gaslight/) can help figure out what’s going on. Had that gaslighting and manipulation happened throughout your whole marriage? Once you knew what you were looking at and looked back, did you recognize it had been happening the whole time? **Stacey:** For sure. I discovered he was looking at online explicit material just about a month after we married. And I think that’s when I knew I didn’t marry who I thought I had. But I felt stuck, because the next day after I found out he was looking at it, I found out I was pregnant. And that’s when I just thought, there’s nothing I can do, I’m stuck. ## WHEN YOU CAN’T SHAKE THE FEELING YOUR HUSBAND IS LYING **Anne:** So what persona did he use to manipulate you? Of course, this is going to hurt you because [lying is emotional abuse](/is-lying-emotional-abuse/ "Lying is emotionally abusive"). **Stacey:** Well, he’s super spiritual, and we did all the religious things. I just thought I married a spiritual, religious, truthful person. I didn’t think he was capable of the lies and betrayal that ensued. **Anne:** So how long between discovering it and when you discovered the affair? That you figured he was lying. Was that, I’m guessing, like 10 years or something? **Stacey:** Yeah, 10 years. **Anne:** Oh, see, I’ve become a psychic now that I’ve been doing this for so long. So 10 years, and how did you discover the affair? **Stacey:** Our marriage was just falling apart. I could not explain why. And I couldn’t figure out what was wrong. I thought it was me. He called me mean throughout our marriage. And also unattractive. Stuff like that. So I thought, you know, it’s just me. We ended up moving. I thought maybe it was our neighborhood and we moved across the state. And after we moved, nothing changed, and it still kept falling apart. Then I heard him one time on the phone, and he was talking to someone. I heard him saying things that just really sounded wrong. Like he said, you know, we just met the wrong way. We can’t continue our relationship, we just started wrong, and I’m like, oh my gosh, he’s talking to a girl, and he is having an affair and he’s lying to me. Because it had crossed my mind, and I had brought it up to him before, asking him if he had an affair. I said, my brother and his friend actually said it sounds like you’re having an affair. ## UNCOVERING THE AFFAIR SHE WASN’T SUPPOSED TO KNOW ABOUT **Stacey:** He was so defensive about it and was like, I can’t believe your brother would ever accuse me of that. That’s so ridiculous. I can’t believe you’d ever think that. And now looking back, he was having an affair at that exact moment and lying to me. But he was so good at making me think I was crazy to even consider that. So anyway, I overheard him on the phone and I thought, Oh my gosh, he is having an affair. And he turned the corner and saw me listening to him, and his face just said it all. It just said it all, but he talked his way out of it. I said, who are you talking to? And he just stared at me. And then finally, like a half an hour later, he finally answered and said, it was the guy from work. I just feel bad. Because I was talking about me and you, and how we started wrong, and how we were just friends and shouldn’t have gotten married, but that was my first clue. And then later on, I found him texting her about a month later. **Anne:** It took him a minute to figure out a story to tell you that he thought you would believe. One that made you look bad. **Stacey:** Absolutely. **Anne:** Let’s talk about that stare for a minute. He just stares at you in space, right, for a little bit. Kind of a lack of blinking, would you say? Sort of a flat affect on his face? **Stacey:** Yeah, absolutely. **Anne:** Had you seen that ever in your marriage before? **Stacey:** I guess from time to time. I can recognize it now for what it was. ## THE “STARE OF A LIAR”: RECOGNIZING THAT FROZEN, BLANK LOOK **Stacey:** To me, it’s so obvious now, looking back on it. Like, of course, he’s trying to come up with a lie. Why wouldn’t he just answer me if he wasn’t going to lie? But I wanted his story to be true. So I would accept it, because it was so much easier to think, okay, ah, he’s not having an affair. It’s okay. It’s just me. I’m the one that needs to change. **Anne:** I saw this stare recently with a neighbor kid. Which I thought was interesting. So he had been singing a very off-color song, and my son picked up on it and he was singing it. I’m not sure he knew what he was saying, my son. So when this neighbor kid came over, I said, “Hey, that song is not okay.” You cannot sing it around my kids. You shouldn’t be singing it at all. This is a nine year old kid. He stares at me with this blank stare for a minute, for a while, doesn’t say anything, nothing. And then after, I don’t know how long, he says, “Oh, that song, that song’s about social distancing.” ![Why Does It Seem Like My Husband's Just Lying to Me?](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Why-Does-It-Feel-Like-My-Husband-Is-Lying-to-Me.webp "Why Does It Feel Like My Husband is Lying to Me")And I was like, no, that’s a lie. That’s not true. You just took a minute to come up with what you thought was a plausible story. But that’s not the truth. You need to go home. And I sent him home. Because I was done. This is ridiculous. I think it’s interesting that an adult man, 40 years old, 50 years old, is still doing that. **Stacey:** Right. **Anne:** And thinking, okay, if I don’t make any moves, like no sudden movements, right? ## SEEKING HELP WHEN YOU KNOW YOUR HUSBAND IS LYING **Anne:** I need to get my story straight. They’re not thinking about you in that moment. How they hurt you or anything about you. All they’re thinking is what is she going to believe? It takes some energy when your husband lies to you. That’s why they’re sort of frozen there for a second, because there’s a lot happening inside their head. And they’re trying to keep their face pretty still, so they don’t give anything away while they’re working out how they’re gonna lie to you. Or they’re working out how to manipulate you. **Stacey:** Absolutely. **Anne:** Yeah. I’ve heard that called like a narcissistic stare before. I’m going to call it the stare of a liar. **Stacey:** Yeah, yeah, cause it’s a definite look. **Anne:** Many women have seen this over the years, but they don’t know what to make of it. And they don’t know what they’re looking at, right? When they see it. So five years go by after this affair. And things are just not getting better. And then you go looking for help. While you are experiencing the [stages of deliverance from abuse](/long-term-effects-of-emotional-abuse-in-relationships/). How did you find Betrayal Trauma Recovery? **Stacey:** I went to just Apple podcasts and searched for betrayal trauma. And that was the same time too. It took about five years to ever even hear the word betrayal trauma. I had been to plenty of counselors, religious counselors and leaders. I’d been to groups that my church put on. I hadn’t heard of betrayal trauma before either. ## THE SUBTLE SIGNS YOUR HUSBAND IS LYING (THAT MOST WOMEN MISS) **Anne:** After that initial incident, where you found out about it a month after you were married. Did you see any other use, or that was it? And then he hid it well after that. **Stacey:** He let me in on enough truth that I wouldn’t know he was lying to me. So I always knew he had a online explicit material problem or would view it, but he would say. I look at it once, every three to six months, and that’s all. I don’t have a problem. Or every once in a while he’d talk to our religious leader and he would tell me that, and so I thought, oh okay, he’s honest with me, I didn’t know he was lying to me. And I used to say, “You know, if you look at it, tell me or if you’re struggling, let’s talk about it.” But it was interesting, because in our relationship he rarely initiated intimacy, he just wasn’t affectionate. And I’d always think, what is wrong with me? Everyone else I hear about their husband can’t keep their hands off of them. What’s wrong with me and come to find out he was he was lying. He was masturbating once a week. And he had never brought that up, so it’s like taking care of himself. And not interested in an emotional relationship with someone else. ## WHEN YOUR HUSBAND IS LYING ABOUT HIS “PROGRESS” **Anne:** Your experience is actually more common when it comes to a user. So many women think , he just wants it all the time because he’s into this gross stuff. I would say generally speaking, you get one or the other. Someone who wants to have it, like, more than is healthy. And then the other situation where they just don’t seem interested, they don’t initiate, they’re not planning dates. They’re not interested in you as a person. ![It Feels Like My Husband is Lying to Me What Should I Do](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/It-Feels-Like-My-Husband-Is-Lying-To-Me.webp "It Feels Like My Husband is Lying to Me")Like, they don’t get you gifts for Christmas. Where it’s like, who am I to you? I remember asking my ex once, while we were married, how do you show me that you care? And he had that blank look on his face for a minute, and then guess what he said? I mow the lawn. **Stacey:** Oh. **Anne:** And I was like, you mow the lawn anyway. You, you would mow it for yourself. So that’s not a thing. Did you go down the addiction recovery route for a while? **Stacey:** Not at first. I thought everyone looks at it, and he just does it sometimes. During that time, after I found out about use before I found out about the affair. My sister-in-law left my brother over it. And I talked to her and said, “This is so ridiculous that you’re leaving him over this.” I got really mad, and it ruined our relationship. And now looking back. Wow, I have a different view now. We went to addiction recovery after I found out about the affair. ## USING LANGUAGE FROM HIS PROGRAM TO LIE EVEN MORE **Anne:** Is this with the church, like a church program? Okay, did you find his behaviors got any better, that he used to groom you? **Stacey:** A little bit, yeah. He did go to addiction recovery group a little bit, like throughout the course of our marriage, but he would just kind of go to a meeting here and there, and then he would say he didn’t need it. And it wasn’t helpful to him. But when we started going after the affair, it made a little difference, not a lot. **Anne:** And I would say that was grooming. Where you think it helped a little bit would be that he could use the language he learned there to groom and lie to you. He was able to weaponize those things to make you feel like he was getting better when he actually wasn’t. **Stacey:** Yes, totally. **Anne:** We find that therapy, addiction recovery, even clergy meetings, if they want to hide their behaviors. They’re going to use that to groom, and they’re going to learn the language. Some guys even use the language of mindfulness. Or yoga, or I’m so emotionally healthy. Like, I think a real red flag on any dating platform is that someone says they’re interested in emotional health. They had a woman partner who was like, hey, we need to be healthy. And they’ve been to therapy, learned the language and weaponized it. Because if you meet a man who’s like, “Oh, my previous spouse was emotionally unhealthy. She wasn’t caring. She wasn’t this, she wasn’t that.” Then that new partner will be like, well, I’m caring. I’m understanding. And that is just grooming right out of the gate. ## HOW HE USED THERAPY LINGO TO HIDE THE TRUTH **Anne:** They like weaponizing this therapy language, the recovery language, like, I’m not the enemy, online explicit material is the enemy. **Stacey:** Right. **Anne:** I’m not the enemy, Satan is the enemy. And I agree, Satan is the enemy, and online explicit material is the enemy, but you are on that side. You’re behind enemy lines. You’re dangerous to me because you are lying to me. **Stacey:** Yeah, it’s interesting what you’d say about him using therapy language, because he would use these terms. And it would drive me crazy. Because I’m like, you sound like a record, like you just learned these terms, and now you’re going to use them on me. I just felt like, not a human. I’m, no, I’m a human with emotions. You can’t just use these pre-recorded terms with me. Anne: So we come from the same faith tradition, where we believe Satan tried to overthrow God in the pre-existence before we came to earth. In our faith tradition, we believe Satan understands God’s plan. Like he understands the commandments. He understands all of it. He just doesn’t apply any of it. And I think that’s what these guys are like. They understand the therapy language, and all the clergy stuff. They read the Bible, and know all the scriptures. But it doesn’t actually lead them to repentance. Similar to Satan. He knows all these things. He just doesn’t ever repent. It never changes, and I think without the application, without actually having a change of heart. And actually being converted. Of course Satan’s gonna stay the same no matter what he knows. ## HER HUSBAND WAS LYING TO CLERGY & THERAPISTS TOO **Anne:** So the scary thing about addiction recovery, therapy, reading your scriptures more or anything like that is that if you’re not going to apply them. You just become more and more dangerous. **Stacey:** Absolutely. **Anne:** So when did you realize that common marriage advice, Christian marriage advice, like love, serve, forgive, be understanding. When did you realize that that was not working? **Stacey:** Right after I found out about the affair, we started going to a counselor. He actually said, “Okay, what happened is not good, but we’re gonna move forward now.” And he said to me, “You can never talk about the past. I don’t want you to bring it up. When you do, you’re just damaging your future, if you bring up the past to your husband.” He actually told my husband, if I wouldn’t stop talking about it, that he could just get up and leave and like … ![Why is Your Husband Lying to You?](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/j8CvkDrWyRc/sddefault.jpg) **Anne:** What? **Stacey:** … leave me. This is a counselor. **Anne:** He doesn’t know that stonewalling is apparently emotional and psychological abuse, I guess, this guy. **Stacey:** It is horrible, horrible. And my husband, of course, loved this counselor. And so when I would talk about the past, he’s like, “No, you’re burning down the cornfield.” This is what he said. He said, “You have a cornfield, and every time you talk about the past, you burn it down, and then you guys have to start over.” So it was really on me. And it wasn’t on my husband at all. It was like, okay, you made a mistake. Let’s move forward. You’re forgiven. ## THE SPIRITUAL PRESSURE WOMEN FEEL WHEN THEIR HUSBAND IS LYING **Stacey:** He was from the same faith background we were from, and also our religious leader at church had referred this counselor. So my husband was stuck on the religious aspect of this religious leader referred him. So he must be who we need to go to. And I kept saying like, this is not helpful. This is damaging. **Anne:** Let’s talk about the spiritual abuse. So here you are being lied to by your husband and abused psychologically and emotionally. With your counselor, who is a religious counselor, with your bishop, who is your religious leader. So you’re being abused by these men who are trying to tell you what your experience is and trying to coerce you into thinking that you’re not being abused. Did you get it from family? Like, were you facing spiritual abuse on all sides? **Stacey:** Not necessarily from family, but I have to say that not one family member has ever told me that maybe I should leave my husband. Everyone has brought into the situation, forgive, what would Jesus do. It’s all, repent, read your scriptures, pray, God will get you through this. **Anne:** What would Jesus do? I’m always thinking. He says, depart from the wicked, is what he says. He says, separate yourselves from wickedness. So, what would Jesus do? He would say, get thee hence. **Stacey:** Yeah. **Anne:** So, I need to get myself hence from this. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## FINDING VALIDATION & THE TRUTH **Anne:** When you found Betrayal Trauma Recovery, is this like a revelation? **Stacey:** I can’t even tell you, just listening to your podcast and feeling like I’m not crazy. Second of all, I’m not alone. There are other people who have been through this, because it’s such a lonely place to be. There aren’t many people you can talk to. I feel like it’s so hard, even though it is my story. It’s not only my story. So I can’t talk about the truth about him to everyone, because then I tarnish my husband or make him look bad. Like, nobody knows what’s going on. Because you can’t talk about it. So it’s such a lonely place. When my husband is currently lying to me. And then for me, all these therapists will make me feel even worse. So just to have someone I could connect with just to listen to podcasts and feel like I’m not alone. And wow, I’m not crazy. That was so, so big. **Anne:** I’m so happy you found us. We always want women to find us, because when you’re in that fog of abuse and being abused from all sides. It is so hard to figure out what’s going on. And even if you want to tell people. I’m not saying you should. But let’s just say you got it in your mind. That you were going to get up in your meeting and from the pulpit, say, everyone, I’m being psychologically abused. They wouldn’t believe you. So you can start telling people, but then people just look at you like you’re crazy. So it’s so nice to be part of a community where you’re immediately believed. ## THE POWER OF COMMUNITY WHEN YOUR HUSBAND IS LYING **Anne:** And not just believed, you don’t even have to explain it. We just get it, it’s so freeing. And then I think the more we validate each other and empower each other, the stronger we get over time. Then it makes it so much easier to see he’s lying all the time. And helps us make decisions about what to do to get to safety. **Stacey:** Absolutely. **Anne:** The purpose of this podcast is not to proselyte. We’re all here sharing from our own experience. So the point of me talking to her is sharing my own experience and views. And we respect that everyone has different views around here. As you’ve heard on the podcast, women come from all religions, different paradigms, or no religion. Everyone is welcome here. So where are you now in your situation? Do you feel like you’ve established some peace? Or do you feel like you’re still being cycled through the abuse? **Stacey:** It’s still a cycle. I have established more peace. And definitely recognized my relationship for what it is. I can recognize patterns and behaviors. That before I wouldn’t have recognized what they were. But it’s really hard. It’s so hard. I’ve never been able to make a concrete decision to stay or go. Sometimes I almost wish I could find him in another affair, so that I could have that reason of, okay, I can leave. But right now it’s like this in between, where I feel like exactly what you’re saying earlier. He’s aware of what he needs to do, but he hasn’t fully made that commitment. He still blames me. It’s so hard. I have kids, and now it’s been seven years. **Anne:** Seven years since the affair? **Stacey:** Yeah. **Anne:** Okay. ## HOW HER HUSBAND’S LIES IMPACTED THEIR CHILDREN **Stacey:** And sometimes I think back, wow, what if I would have been strong enough to just leave then? Well, how different would my kids’ lives be? I’ve been so intent on giving them married parents and a family. And then I think back and I’m like, “Wow, maybe I’ve made a big mistake staying together.” He did a good job of lying to me to keep me invested. And modeling this kind of behavior to my kids of what’s okay in a relationship, that’s really hard. So I’m in this limbo where I just never am fully committed to stay or go. **Anne:** It’s really hard. Many women have prayed to know, do I stay or go? And then many women avoid praying about it because they don’t want an answer. Because either answer is terrible. Number one, if it’s stay, then you have to stay in an abusive place. Number two, is that God telling you to stay? Because I’ve had so many women say, I prayed about it, and God wants me to stay. And I’m thinking, I’m not here to doubt your spiritual impressions. But simultaneously, the abuse messes with women’s minds so much that sometimes they can’t even ferret out what they’re feeling. And what they’re feeling is it feels bad to divorce. So they’re feeling like, I know when I think about divorce, it feels wrong. That must not be right. So I guess God’s telling me to stay married? And with that, I want to say, no, no, no. If the answer you’re getting is this terrible, awful feeling when you think about divorce. That does not mean God is telling you not to divorce. And the reason why is because divorce will feel bad no matter what. ## THE IMPACT OF HIS LIES ON DECISION MAKING **Anne:** I would encourage women to consider that if you get a terrible, awful feeling when you think about divorce. Consider that it is not God telling you not to do it. After you say, okay, no matter what, it’s going to feel awful. Then how do you sort out what God wants you to do? And I have no idea. **Stacey:** I don’t either. **Anne:** I just don’t want the abuse to make the decision. Because the abuse is, you’re not good enough, you can’t do it, all these things in your head. That have been in your head forever, that you don’t even realize aren’t even you. They’re just shadows of the abuse from over time. So it’s very, very hard to sort out what to do when it’s hard to tell what is lies and what is the truth. But I do think God will lead, direct and guide us as we make our way toward safety. And if we say, hey, this is what I want. I want a peaceful, happy life. Please guide me and direct me toward that. What do you want me to do? What’s my next step? I think he’ll guide us wherever he wants us to go. But just as a wholesale overview of that bad feeling. You’ll feel that regardless, even if divorce is the best thing for you. So all of you listeners now that are like, well, I was thinking about divorce, now that you said that. As a woman of faith, I believe God has a path and way to safety for you. I just don’t know what that looks like. ## THE WORKSHOP WILL GIVE YOU CLARITY **Anne:** And that’s why I put together **[The Clarity After Betrayal](https://www.btr.org/clarity/)** workshop. And this is where we get to take a sigh of relief, that there are safety strategies that work well. And if you know what they are before making these decisions, they can help you get to safety one safe step at a time, and give you tools to see if your husband is lying. My workshop gives women answers. These strategies work, whether you’re married or divorced, to give you enough space to observe what’s going on. I’ve seen so many miracles in so many women’s lives and in my own life. He’s there for us, but it’s hard and scary. **Stacey:** Yeah, I like the idea of just kind of praying for the next step, just one step at a time. **Anne:** Have you reconciled with your sister-in-law, your brother’s ex-wife? **Stacey:** No, they ended up getting divorced, and I haven’t talked to her in years. I think about it and I’m kind of scared. Just how the relationship was left, but I think I should just go and tell her I’m sorry for the things I assumed and now have such a different view. My brother lied about her so much, and he never took responsibility for his actions. ## WHEN HE LIES ABOUT WHOSE FAULT IF IS The whole reason he used online explicit material was her fault. It was because she didn’t want to have it with him, or she wasn’t interested in it as much as he was. And so he had no other option. It was just what he had to do. And I’ve never heard him say otherwise. **Anne:** Yeah, I’m so entitled to it that I have to have it. This is my wife’s job. **Stacey:** Right, and if she won’t do it, it’s entirely her fault. They’ve been divorced ten years now , and nothing’s changed. **Anne:** Did he get remarried? **Stacey:** No, neither of them did. **Anne:** Your brother’s an abuser. **Stacey:** Yeah, I’ve got them all around me. Now that I can see it for what it is. A lot of the men in my life are, absolutely. **Anne:** Now that you see that, have you noticed any men that are healthy? **Stacey:** Sometimes I think, do they even exist? Like, are there mentally stable men out there? I’m trying to think. **Anne:** That question is also scary. And the reason why that’s scary is that you’re going to need help. And if you don’t have healthy people in your life and can see it for what it is, it’s scary to start doing that on your own. **Stacey:** Absolutely. **Anne:** Many women, once they figure out what abuse is, they’re think, “I don’t know a man who’s not abusive”. I’m happy to say that I have several men in my life that are not abusive but supportive. And the more I learn about abuse, the more I’ve been able to recognize healthy men. ## THE REALITY OF A HUSBAND’S LIES **Anne:** Of course, I’m not married to them. So I don’t know for sure. But in terms of my interaction, and then also what their wives say about them. I think there are healthy men out there, is what I’m trying to say. I also think they’re not common. In the state where you and I live, one out of every three women has experienced physical abuse. So then emotional and psychological abuse, even more. The statistics are that eight out of every ten men in our state use it. **Stacey:** Wow. **Anne:** So then you’re looking at 8 out of every 10 men as an abuser essentially. Is willing to manipulate, willing to lie, willing to throw somebody under the bus to save their own reputation. **Stacey:** Scary statistics. **Anne:** If you could go back and talk to your younger self now that you know what you know from listening to the podcast and being a member of our community, what would you tell her? **Stacey:** I wish she could see her worth and know that she’s a worthy person, without someone else needing to tell her that she is. I wish I could tell her to recognize red flags, like lies and see them for what they are. There are so many red flags looking back. Even if I saw them, I think deep down it’s like I’ve never felt like I deserved better. That’s sad. ## WHEN YOUR HUSBAND IS LYING: THE VALUE OF WOMEN IN FAITH **Anne:** In our faith tradition, we have this theme, we stand up in the young women’s organization and recite. It says, “I am a beloved daughter of heavenly parents with a divine nature and eternal destiny. As a disciple of Jesus Christ, I strive to become like him. I seek to act upon personal revelation and minister to others in his holy name,I will stand as a witness of God at all times. I will stand as a witness of God at all times, in all things, and in all places.” This is more focused now on service than when we were growing up. Ours was like, I am valuable, yeah. This one actually doesn’t sound like that anymore. So we grew up with this, like I am a valuable daughter of God. Why do you think that didn’t sink in for us? **Stacey:** Why? I think sometimes if you just recite something over and over, you don’t really spend the time to think about what you’re saying. **Anne:** I also think it’s how we were treated. **Stacey:** Oh yeah, absolutely. **Anne:** So if they say you’re so valuable, but then you’re not actually treated as you’re valuable, like they’re not listening to your opinion. They’re not believing you. They’ll pay for your brother to go to college, but they won’t pay for you to go to college. Your brother can choose a career of any of these 5,000 careers, and you need to pick a teacher. Because then you would have the summers off for your kids, and you need to cook, sew, clean and do laundry. ## GENDER ROLES, EXPECTATIONS, & YOUR SENSE OF SELF **Anne:** And your duties are relegated to childcare, cleaning, cooking, and he, what does he want to do? He gets to be an engineer, an astronaut, like what are his dreams and hopes? And yours should be laundry, so I don’t know what, you know, like nobody ever says like, what do you want to do with your life? **Stacey:** No. **Anne:** Like what are you interested in? Who are you as a person? What talents has God given you apart from he’s given you the ability to be a mother, right? So it’s like were you actually treated like you were valuable, and so in our hearts and minds we’re thinking okay, we’re valued. But we’re only valued if we look like this, or if we do this thing, and if we do it well. And you know what, I’m not super great at cooking brownies. So maybe I’m not as valuable as the congregation brownie baker. I just wonder if that’s part of it. The way that we internalize the culture around us. Oh, this is how you get valued as a woman. If you want it, you’ve got to be cute, you’ve got to be in shape, and you have to play the harp. **Stacey:** It’s so true, that’s interesting you bring that up, because a week ago at church we had a lesson about things of value, and how we treat things differently on how much we value them. And we came home from church, and I said to my husband, I don’t feel valued. As a wife, as a human. For me, it was such a big epiphany. To just think, I’ve spent these last 20 years with someone who doesn’t value me and constantly lies to me. ## HOW BIGGER SOCIETAL PATTERNS SHAPE MEN TO JUSTIFY LYING TO THEIR WIVES **Anne:** They don’t cherish us. **Stacey:** Right, yeah, how differently would my life turn out if I was with someone that valued me, truly? **Anne:** That’s why we have to learn to value ourselves, because nobody’s doing it for us. **Stacey:** Right, exactly. **Anne:** When we do, and we’re like, no, I’m gonna do this thing. Everybody around us is like, “What? No, no, no. You’re not valuing your husband.” I think the heart of this is also just, flat out misogyny. I think that’s the problem with a lot of the addiction recovery situation, is that they’re not acknowledging this super solid bedrock foundation of misogyny. **Stacey:** Absolutely. **Anne:** That is so firm, so strong, and so deep that it’s going through the clergy, the therapists, and the community, and it’s making it very difficult for women to value themselves. And then when you start doing it, then you’re the crazy apostate lady. I enjoy that role though. Now in my congregation, I am like the witch lady almost, you know what I mean? Like, don’t let your kids get too close to her. **Stacey:** How have you been able to keep your faith in your spirituality? That is something I’ve struggled with so much through this. Because I feel like my religion has spiritually manipulated me into feeling like I’m not as much value. I need to forgive, move on. And it’s real. I’ve struggled with my spirituality through this. Is there things that have helped you? ## SEEKING GOD’S HELP WHEN YOU’RE CONFUSED **Anne:** In our particular faith, we study from the Bible and also from the Book of Mormon. And I love studying from both of these books about my Savior. And having a tangible book that I can study from and consider what God is telling me has helped me. Sometimes I think like, what am I doing this for? All these men don’t get it. But as I study, I feel God’s love for me. And the other thing that’s interesting is that both of those books are I think misogynistic at their core due to the historical situation, right? Women aren’t writing them. They’re not interpreting them from the perspective of women. And so that’s another thing that I do. Actually, in my own journal, I pray and ask Heavenly Father what He wants to tell me, and then I write down the impressions I receive. And I consider that my own personal scriptures. So even though it’s still on that solid seemingly immovable bedrock of misogyny. I do think the Lord’s words come through. The other thing I love about the scriptures is that God does not like wickedness. Over and over, both the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Book of Mormon stories over and over of deliverance. So the gospel is a gospel of deliverance. The ultimate deliverance would be salvation, returning to live with God. But I also believe He has a deliverance for us here in this life, that he wants us to be delivered from all of the lies and evil. ## THE CALL FOR WOMEN TO SEEK DELIVERANCE **Anne:** You know, the Israelites were enslaved by evil, by Pharaoh. And they prayed, and they watched, and they hoped for the time they could be delivered. And then when Moses made that possible, they started moving, they started making their way. At that point, they could have just sat there and been like, oh, it’s too hard to get all of our stuff together. It’s too hard to walk out. Pharaoh’s going to follow us anyway. But they didn’t. They got up, they packed up all their stuff. They started making their way, and Pharaoh followed them. And then the Red Sea parted and they walked through. I mean, can you imagine the faith it took to walk through these two pillars of water? Thinking it could fall on you at any second. I don’t know if I would have been like this, this seems like a bad idea. You know walking through here, but they did it, and I think God is calling women to do that now. I feel like God is calling women to separate themselves from evil. To have faith, pray for deliverance, hope for deliverance, and start making our way out. And when we see that moment, whenever that is, to pack up our stuff metaphorically speaking. Make our way, and then when he parts that Red Sea, we have to walk through that. And for me, that was when my ex got arrested. For some women, they have some kind of epiphany about the extent of the lies. I’m not saying all this leads to divorce. I’m not pro divorce, but I am pro deliverance from evil and I am pro deliverance from abuse. ## GOD DELIVERS US FROM EVIL **Anne:** God seems to call us all to consider deliverance. To separate ourselves from evil. We also know in the last days that there’ll be a big separation. A separation of good and evil, the wheat and the tares. I think that’s happening now. And the easiest place to do that is in our own homes to ensure that our home is a place of peace. And that’s confusing, because at church, when they talk about, separate yourself from evil. They never talk about it in terms of your own home. They’re always talking about it as like the evil in the world. So like these evil people out there. And I’m thinking, I’m not worried about the “evil” people out in the world. I’m already separated from them. So I don’t know what you’re talking about. You know, I’m not like hanging out with them. The people in my circle are healthy, happy, honest people. So we’re trying to separate ourselves from evil. We need to look in our own six foot radius. **Stacey:** Yeah, that’s big. **Anne:** The Lord has a plan for us. I don’t know what it is exactly. I’m just going to do my part. So I just think, I don’t know the answer to so many of these things. Of course, I don’t. Why would I? But I think that’s what’s helped me. I. keep my faith, because I just can’t imagine God doesn’t have a plan for our deliverance. If He’s had a plan for oppressed people’s delivery since the beginning of time. **Stacey:** Yeah, that’s something to think about. I like that a lot. It’s good, good stuff. ## RECONCILING YOUR FAITH WITH THE REALITY OF HIS LIES **Anne:** I have many friends who have left their faith, and I don’t blame them. There’s no judgment for me, because I think I don’t know why I still believe and you don’t. But like we’re still sisters. Did your sister-in-law leave the church? **Stacey:** Yes, she did, yeah. **Anne:** So I think that would be another thing as you attempt to reconcile with her is to have a soft place in your heart for that. And be like, it makes sense that you would do that after all the abuse you suffered from my brother, from my family, from other church members, like, I totally get it. I can see why you would do that. Because that’s going to be a further bridge to reconciliation. Rather than, like, well, I’m staying in the church because I’m more righteous and have more faith than you. After all the misogyny I’ve experienced and all the terrible things, but somehow I’m a better person than you because I can put up with it or something. Like the women who have said, hey, I am done. I’m not going to listen, you shouldn’t get divorced, you’re a bad person, and stuff like that. Like, good for you for standing up for yourself. Good for you for saying, I don’t have to take this anymore. I don’t have to take this abuse. I’m not doing this anymore with a husband who is so full of lies. So in terms of like how I feel about it, I think every woman can make her own way to safety in whatever way that looks like for her. And sometimes, frankly, I’m confused about why I still believe, like I do. ## WHEN YOUR HUSBAND IS LYING & BLAMING THE MESSENGER **Anne:** I’ve suffered tons of oppression from men for my views, especially now that the podcast is so big and that I seem very threatening to many therapists or other people. And my views seem threatening. Some people see me as some sort of like ultra crazy podcaster that their wife started listening to. And after she started listening to this whack-a-doodle podcaster, our family was ruined. **Stacey:** Well, what’s interesting about that is yes, of course, the husbands don’t like us finding you. Because we find the truth. We understand the abuse for what it is. And when we confront them and say, ah, I listened to this podcast and she said this. So yeah, my husband is not a fan of the podcast because it totally exposes him for what he is, a lying selfish person, and he doesn’t like that one bit. **Anne:** I become this crazy like an extremist who’s podcasting from my basement, who, you know, believes in aliens. I’m not, I don’t believe in aliens, but I mean people have that view of it, right? No, actually like this is pretty mainstream, like basic abuse stuff. If you talk to any abuse expert, they’ll be like, yeah, of course. This is not extreme. It’s not out there. There’s nothing about it that is counterculture. I mean, our faith tradition says we do not tolerate abuse. It’s just so, so threatening to an abuser, for a victim to find out the truth about what’s going on. ## THE POWER OF TRUTH, COMMUNITY, & FINALLY SEEING CLEARLY **Stacey:** Yeah, it blows his cover. They can’t get away with what they used to get away with. It’s confusing to them, because behavior that’s worked in the past doesn’t work anymore. When we can recognize his lies and see what’s being done and how we’re being manipulated, it has changed my relationship. It has since I’ve started listening to the podcast, and being able to recognize it, and feeling more self worth. Because of all the gaslighting I have felt like I’m the crazy one, that there’s no validity to my thoughts and emotions. Being able to recognize that my thoughts, emotions, and feelings are valid. It gives me a lot more strength to stand up and recognize that, yeah, I have worth and my thoughts, they’re not crazy. They’re actually less crazy. They’re the truth. That’s what they are. They’re true. **Anne:** Well, and from a spiritual perspective, that is God telling you that you are of worth, and listen to that part, listen to how much he loves you and cares about you. And you don’t have to put up with literal chaos and pain coming from someone who enjoys wickedness. We were talking about submission before, like on a previous episode. And essentially, if you listen to your abuser and submit yourself to him. Okay, I’ll be more available or, okay, I’ll lose weight or, okay, I won’t ask you questions. And I’ll, I don’t know, whatever they want, that’s unrighteous. You’re submitting yourself to evil, which God never asked us to do, ever. ## AFTER BETRAYAL, LEAN ON THE STRENGTH OF OTHERS **Stacey:** Yeah, right. **Anne:** The cool thing is the more of us there are, the stronger we become, and the less weird it is. And so we just need to keep walking forward. And when one of us gets to safety, it helps all of us. Thank you so much for spending this time with me today. I appreciate your time. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [How to Recover After Being Cheated On](https://www.btr.org/how-to-recover-after-being-cheated-on/) **Published:** February 3, 2026 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Are you trying to recover after being cheated on? Here's what you need to know. **Content:** If you’ve discovered your husband has been lying to you and cheating and you’re wondering how to recover after being cheated on, the best place to start is to get clear about what’s really happening. Realizing that your husband isn’t the man you thought he was is a devastating blow to your sense of reality and your emotional safety. The betrayal trauma is real and naming it is an important step in your recovery. If you need help getting started, we’re here to support your healing with [Betrayal Trauma Recovery’s Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/). > **This episode follows Shelly’s Story** > Part 1: *[What If I Can Never Trust My Husband Again?](https://www.btr.org/how-can-i-trust-my-husband-again/)* > Part 2: *How To Recover After Being Cheated On* (THIS EPISODE) ## 7 THINGS EVERY WOMAN SHOULD KNOW ABOUT HOW TO RECOVER AFTER BEING CHEATED ON Are you trying to recover after your husband cheated on you? If he cheats on you, his lies, secrecy and deceit separate you from your own sense of reality. Here are seven things women need to know about this. ## 1. RECOVERY BEGINS WITH IDENTIFICATION. Betrayal trauma is what you’re experiencing. Naming it helps connect the dots between what happened and how it affected you. ## 2. INTIMATE LIES ARE DOMESTIC ABUSE. The harm doesn’t start once you find out about his cheating. It begins when he starts deceiving you. Recovery begins with accepting this truth. ## 3. YOUR BODY WILL TELL YOU THE TRUTH. Many women experiencing betrayal trauma have physical symptoms like insomnia, stomach issues, chronic pain. Your body always resists, even if your mind doesn’t quite understand what’s happening. ## 4. RECOVERY ISN’T ABOUT HIM EVEN THOUGH THE NEED TO RECOVER IS ENTIRELY ABOUT HIM. Recovery takes knowing how to focus on our own emotional safety. Take our[ free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/) to find out if you are a victim. ## 5. SELF-COMPASSION IS A TURNING POINT. Recovery means treating yourself like you would treat a friend. ## 6. IGNORE BAD ADVICE. People might tell you to just move on or don’t give away your power. That’s not helpful if you’re trying to heal from this type of trauma. ## 7. THE RIGHT SUPPORT MAKES RECOVERY FROM THIS TYPE OF TRAUMA POSSIBLE It is important to find [a support group where women understand](https://www.btr.org/group/) what you’re going through because they’ve been through it too. ## TRANSCRIPT: HOW TO RECOVER AFTER BEING CHEATED ON **Anne:** I have Shelly, a member of our community, back on today’s episode. I interviewed her six months ago. I asked her to come back and check in. And let me know how she’s doing now. Welcome back, Shelly. **Shelly:** So we’re at about a year and a half now since the initial D-Day and it’s still difficult, but we’re still together. We’re still working through things. I’ve had no more D-Days since the four or five months of D-Days I had. Nothing new has come to light. But it’s hard. That’s sort of where I am at the moment. **Anne:** Will you talk about any epiphanies that you’ve had as you’ve been learning how to recover after being cheated on. **Shelly:** There’s been a lot of deepening in my understanding of objectification, as a social issue, and the conditioning everywhere. Society subjects men and women to that conditioning. How human souls are made into objects and literally sold for the purpose of use in a sexual way. And it’s dark. Last time, I gave you a bit of a backstory. There’s a long line of betrayal trauma history in my life, being born into that. And for me, understanding my own power and choice has been freeing. ## EIGHTEEN MONTHS INTO HEALING: WHAT RECOVERY AFTER BEING CHEATED ON LOOKS LIKE **Anne:** Like how did you see it before and how are you seeing it now? **Shelly:** So listening to our original podcast the emotions I felt. When I was going back, to when I was young, and I was a victim of abuse in my teens with a much older man. I felt quite powerless. Just listening to that, it felt powerless. Whereas when I fast forward to now. I can feel there’s a difference. Like, I have choice. I didn’t realize that I had choice then. Like I didn’t understand it. I wouldn’t say naive, because I wouldn’t understand because I was so young and being coerced in such a horrific way, that I didn’t see anything beyond that. Whereas now my adult self understands all this stuff. And actually, through everything I’ve listened to on your podcast and understanding that [betrayal is abuse](https://www.btr.org/emotional-abuse-and-infidelity/). I feel the foundation now that I didn’t have before, an understanding of what betrayal trauma is, where I’m standing in a place of power and knowing how to recover after being cheated on. I’m in a different space. I felt that, just listening through my own story in the podcast that we did before. **Anne:** For our listeners, we recorded this the same day her previous episode aired. So she listened to it and now we’re talking. It’s a different type of experience than talking with a coach, therapist or group session. Because you’re listening to yourself from the outside in a way that you wouldn’t normally. Can you talk about your experience as you listened to yourself share your story on the podcast. ## LISTENING TO YOURSELF: A SURPRISING STEP IN HOW TO RECOVER AFTER BEING CHEATED ON **Anne:** Do you feel like it enabled you to feel for yourself in a way that you hadn’t before? **Shelly:** I do actually, because I disconnected so much. I had a strong sense of dissociation before. And that has changed. I feel it is important, because that’s reconnecting to the self. Where the dissociation was before, it was like someone else’s life that I recounted or told a story about somebody else’s life or a different lifetime. It didn’t feel connected to me. So having that connection back and feeling those emotions is important. In being whole, and rebuilding myself, it was helpful. I felt really emotional. I felt the heartbreak for myself. And I have empathy for myself, which is a strange concept. I feel for myself, my own story. I was able to release it. **Anne:** I imagine it will take you a while to process hearing your own story. It’s not like you’re gonna have all the epiphanies all at once. It will happen over time. But I think it’s beneficial for women to hear themselves and recognize how human they are. If they heard someone else share the story, how much compassion they would feel for that person, and love and lack of judgment. **Shelly:** Exactly. **Anne:** It might be something they’ve never experienced for themselves before, partially due to all the abuse they experienced. The abuse in and of itself separates us from ourselves. [That’s how abusers manipulate their victims.](https://www.btr.org/abusers-manipulate-their-victims/) Abusers do not want us to process it in a way that we can feel or understand it. ## WHY SEEING THINGS AS THEY REALLY ARE HELPS AND SHOWS HOW TO RECOVER AFTER BEING CHEATED ON **Shelly:** Yeah, they dis-empower you, so you haven’t got the power to step out of it, change it, or even see it. Having compassion for yourself and hearing as if you are listening to a friend is huge. I’ve always struggled with self-love. I completely understand why now, because it’s been throughout my entire life. Hearing that if I was sitting with a friend and told me my story, I would have nothing but love for her. Right now, I’m heavily processing stuff with my current partner, which has a huge impact on me every day. Things still trigger me. There are moments it feels overwhelmingly hard. **Anne:** In the past, you didn’t understand what was happening to you. But now that you have the information, you can talk to other women. You went to [BTR group sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/). You can process it which makes a difference. **Shelly:** Yeah, that’s definitely part of it. I’m also aware of positive coping mechanisms that I’m doing. **Anne:** Once you’re aware, you can start looking at it more objectively in terms of not being manipulated like we were before. **Shelly:** Yeah. **Anne:** Which helps us make better decisions in the long run. It takes a minute to figure out how we feel and what we wanna do. We’re just a lot more capable of making decisions that are in our best interest when we have this type of information. It’s just impossible without it. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## EMBRACING THE HARD TRUTH THAT SETS YOU FREE: HIS CHEATING ISN’T ABOUT YOU **Shelly:** Yeah, learning how to recover after being cheated on is like being in a dark room with a blindfold on and then suddenly walking out into the light and seeing everything for what it actually is. **Anne:** How has that felt? Being able to see things for what they really are? **Shelly:** It’s liberating. I’m glad that I see now, but it’s painful process. I wouldn’t change it. **Anne:** I think some women, and I was one of them, want to unsee it a little bit, ’cause it is so painful. But once you see it, you can’t unsee it. And so there isn’t anywhere to go but forward. **Shelly:** Yeah, I understand wishing to unsee it. I can totally get that, because it’s such a traumatic thing to go through. I’m glad I’m not living in the dark anymore. I’m glad I’m not living in an illusion of this perfect fairy-tale in my head. I would never want anyone to go through this. But I’m glad that I’m now living informed as to who I’m with and where I am. **Anne:** [The Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) intends to help women see the truth. **Shelly:** Yeah. **Anne:** It doesn’t give any instructions in terms of like pack a bag and move out. Nothing like that. It’s more safety principles and how to get enough space to observe. **Shelly:** Yes, I loved the group sessions. Feeling that connection with people, seeing the same faces, feeling familiar with the coach. Each coach had a different sort of energy and beauty about the way they held the space. I found that helpful. I remember in one of my shares talking about how this has affected me and my self perception, my physical self perception. ## GETTING BEAUTY TREATMENTS TO FEEL BETTER PHYSICALLY **Shelly:** I basically started to starve myself. Because all the women he was looking at were all thinner than me. Some of them were younger and some were actually older than me. I had very low self-esteem anyway, but this completely smashed any esteem I had about myself. And in this one particular group, I shared that. Many of the women started to cry and could completely understand, completely resonated with what I was saying. I found that so devastatingly sad that this is one of the consequences of their behavior. Their choices impact the way we internalize, or think, we think it’s because of us. It all boils down to that belief, I’m not enough. Having that connection, not feeling alone, and not feeling like I’m the only one doing this. It was powerful, but equally heartbreaking. Actually across the world, this is something that is happening to women after experiencing something like that. **Anne:** I think it brings it home that it’s not about us. To see that so many women have been exploited in that way, manipulated in that way, is so heartbreaking to realize how systemic it is. **Shelly:** Yeah, my partner, I remember having a conversation with him. “I cannot understand how you could look into my eyes at the end of the day, knowing that you’d done that.” He said, “I just thought, what she doesn’t know won’t hurt her.” Keeping secrets is the root of the pain in between. The damage that’s caused in a relationship, not having transparency. ## SECRECY IS ABUSE: HOW TO RECOVER AFTER BEING CHEATED ON **Shelly:** That as soon as you’re doing something that you know will hurt your partner, you’re already hurting them. **Anne:** Right. **Shelly:** Whether they know it or not. **Anne:** And just the absolute lack of understanding that not giving your partner a choice. Using deceit is abuse. It’s control, it’s harmful, and you’re already hurting her if you are not giving her a choice in her own life. **Shelly:** Exactly, I did not know who I was with. I had the image of who I thought he was. Who he was saying he was. I did not know the person I was with, and I didn’t have free choice in that. **Anne:** Exactly, and for any man to think that sounds okay is horrifying. I guess there could be women who feel this way, but I don’t know of any woman at BTR who would feel comfortable, thinking her husband didn’t know. Unless it was for her own safety, saving some money, as in classic domestic abuse escape strategies. Women in general who are victims of abuse, before they understand they are, would feel bad, thinking their husband didn’t know something he needed to know. I think that’s why it’s just so incomprehensible to us that somebody would’ve made these choices for us and completely disrespected us in this way. **Shelly:** It’s dishonoring someone’s soul that you’re professing to love. That is not love. It’s dishonoring me. Betraying me. There were lies about other things. There were lies about money. It’s not honoring the person you love. And I can’t consolidate those two things in my head, or in my heart and that was a part of learning how to recover after being cheated on. ## MY MIND IS STILL ON HIGH ALERT **Shelly:** Because if I love someone, then I’m gonna honor them by not doing things that hurt them. I won’t do that. **Anne:** I’m so sorry about everything you’re going through. The time you’re in right now is so difficult, trying to sort out what to do next. And learn how to recover after being cheated on. **Shelly:** Yeah, I’m still on high alert a lot of the time, which is exhausting. I was diagnosed with Fibromyalgia. And I’d rid myself of constant pain and fatigue, and lived my life in a happy space. So since all this came out, all the symptoms flared back up again. If anything else came to light, that would be it. I couldn’t physically do it or emotionally stay within the relationship. Because I have nothing more that I can possibly give beyond what I’ve already given, beyond what I’m giving now. I can’t just relax. **Anne:** That’s absolutely understandable. **Shelly:** It’s logical, isn’t it? If someone can spend so many years lying to you. There’s always a chance they’re going to do that again. I still am not in a place where I can say I fully trust him. My mind is still trying to protect me, questioning, [why won’t my husband fight for our marriage](https://www.btr.org/why-wont-my-husband-fight-for-our-marriage/ "why won't my husband fight for our marriage")? I’m still on high alert, and I don’t know however long it takes or what that’s gonna look like to heal. **Anne:** I’m interested in seeing what you think of Living Free, because the intent was to help women feel they don’t have to work so hard. ‘Cause I’m hearing that in your voice. This exhaustion, of the process of seeing if he’s gonna make the right decisions. ## THE LIVING FREE WORKSHOP IS INTENDED TO REDUCE WOMEN’S BURDEN **Anne:** So the [Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) is intended to reduce that burden. And help women observe, so that the burden is all on him and not on us. **Shelly:** I definitely feel it. I’m definitely carrying it. **Anne:** So the strategy of Living Free is learning to give ourselves enough space. So that we can live our lives, be peaceful, happy and observe. It teaches how to recover after being cheated on. And not carry the weight of it. If you want to come back and share your feedback. **Shelly:** I very much would like to do that. **Anne:** I will tell you a little bit about it. So it doesn’t overwhelm you. The workbook comes with it. You can print it, I recommend women buy it on Amazon. I wanted to see the two page spread layout. Which you don’t get to see if you print it on your own printer. But anyway, the Living Free Workshop is 55 lessons. They’re very short videos. Most of them are three minutes, and the shortest one is 30 seconds. So it’s tiny three minute increments to process it. The longest video is six minutes long. There’s only one that’s that long. There’s a question underneath, and if you don’t wanna answer it, you can just push an X and push enter and go to the next thing. If you don’t wanna fill out the workbook, you don’t have to fill it out, but it is good to have it in front of you, so at least you can see what I’m talking about. Just having it in front of you helps. ## MEDITATIONS HELP REGULATE YOUR NERVOUS SYSTEM & SHOW HOW TO RECOVER AFTER BEING CHEATED ON **Anne:** I have a master’s degree in education. I set it up, so women have time to process how to recover after being cheated on in between each one. Especially with the self-esteem issues, to remove the manipulation and negative things that we’ve absorbed through their abuse and replace it with truth. Like, you’re beautiful, you’re capable. Right now might be a great time for the [Meditations](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) to regulate your nervous system to help you feel more peaceful and centered. That’s what the Meditations do to help women who, can’t stop thinking about it. So to help get all that out. I wrote them for myself. Because talking about stuff at some point wasn’t that helpful for me. So I wrote those meditations, so that I could get all the stuff out without having to talk about it. ‘Cause I talk about this all day long, every single day, and I have for 10 years. I’d say if you do the Meditations and then schedule the next interview, that way it can give you some time to think about, did it help? **Shelly:** Yeah, definitely. You need to get this stuff out. That’s important. But I also think there is a point in your [post traumatic growth](https://www.btr.org/treatment-for-divorce/) where you have to go inward. Going in is also an important part of the healing process too. So yeah, I appreciate the access to those. It’s been crazy, it feels divine. **Anne:** Totally. Thank you so much and I look forward to talking to you again soon. **Shelly:** Yeah, thank you so much. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Recovery After Betrayal: Things No One Tells You](https://www.btr.org/recovery-after-betrayal/) **Published:** February 10, 2026 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** What are your next steps to find safety and support after discovering betrayal? Here's what we suggest. **Content:** After the discovery of betrayal, life may feel overwhelming. Here’s what I learned about recovery after betrayal from interviewing four women who experienced betrayal in their marriage. ## RECOVERY AFTER BETRAYAL: HER’S WHAT NO ONE TELLS YOU 1. Name it. It’s important to name betrayal as domestic abuse. 2. Emotional safety first. It’s important to put your emotional safety above anything else. 3. Drop the shame. His betrayal and his lies have nothing to do with you, and you didn’t cause it. 4. Observe, since the betrayal couldn’t have happened without all his lies, it’s important to watch his behavior and make sure it matches his words. 5. Your body knows. Many women live with insomnia, digestive issues, chest tightness, and anxiety long before they understand that betrayal is happening. It’s important to listen to our bodies. 6. Anger can help you. Anger can power your next steps toward emotional safety. 7. Grief comes in waves. There’s so much grief involved with betrayal, and it’s really important to be with people who understand. ## QUICK FAQ ON RECOVERY AFTER BETRAYAL **How long does recovery after betrayal take?** Longer than you want, shorter than you fear. It’s nonlinear; measure by stability and peace, not calendar dates. **Do I have to leave to start healing?** No, you can start with simple emotional safety strategies and see what the next day brings. To learn more about emotional safety strategies after betrayal, enroll in [The Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). To find out if you’re experiencing emotional abuse, [take my free emotional abuse test. It has a lot of emotional abuse examples.](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/) **What if therapy made things worse?** You’re not alone. [That’s why we have our daily, online Group Sessions.](https://www.btr.org/group/) You deserve emotionally safe support to recover from betrayal. ## TRANSCRIPT: RECOVERY AFTER BETRAYAL **Anne:** After interviewing four betrayed wives. Here’s what I learned about recovery after betrayal. Number one, name it. It’s important to name betrayal as domestic abuse Number two, emotional safety first,. It’s important to put your emotional safety above anything else and take steps to learn how to [heal from emotional abuse.](https://www.btr.org/heal-from-emotional-abuse/) Three, drop the shame. His betrayal and his lies have nothing to do with you, and nothing you did or didn’t do was the [cause of cheating.](https://www.btr.org/cause-of-cheating/) Number four, observe. Since the betrayal couldn’t have happened without all his lies, it’s important to watch his behavior and make sure it matches his words. Number five, your body knows. Many women live with insomnia, digestive issues, chest tightness, and anxiety long before they understand that betrayal is happening. It’s important to listen to our bodies. Six, anger can help you. You’ll likely go through [stages of anger after infidelity](https://www.btr.org/stages-of-anger-after-infidelity/). Anger can power your next steps toward emotional safety. And number seven, grief comes in waves. With betrayal, there’s so much grief involved, and it’s really important to be with people who understand. Before I get to their interviews, I want to go back in time. When I went through this, I felt overwhelmed. I didn’t know what to do, and I didn’t know where to turn. Doing my dishes seemed impossible as a single mom. It seemed completely overwhelming. A place like Betrayal Trauma Recovery, this place I founded didn’t exist. I didn’t wanna get divorced, and so I went to 12-Step. My 12-Step sponsor told me my *character defects* were the real problem. She said that if God removed those defects from me, I would have my best chance of saving my family.e character defects from me, that was my best chance of saving my family. ## GOING BACK IN TIME **Anne:** During that time of recovery after betrayal, I was crying a lot. And I just found this recording of my son, who pulled out a vacuum and like had the vacuum handle as the microphone. Watching that video took me back to that place, although I’m not gonna show you the video. Here’s the audio recording of that. **6 Year Old Son:** When you’re feeling sad. It’s okay to cry whenever you’re feeling sad. It’s okay to cry, it’s okay to cry. If someone’s mean to you… **3 Year Old Son:** Telling me to **6 Year Old Son:** …cry. **3 Year Old Son:** Ends up crying again **6 Year Old Son:** Stop you’re interrupting it. **3 Year Old Son:** No I’m not. **6 Year Old Son:** Yes you are. **3 Year Old Son:** No I’m not. **6 Year Old Son:** And if you are a little baby. You can still cry. If you’re really, really old, you still can cry. If you’re really, really, really young, you still can cry. Yay! I love you Mom. **Anne:** He was so brave and so strong now he’s over six feet tall. And he is doing really well. And he is such a good person. I love my children, they are so close to me. I don’t think I would’ve ever had the relationship I have with them if my ex-husband had stayed in our home. So I’m reaching out across the void to you. And if you are overwhelmed, let me sit here in this overwhelm with you. If you have no idea how you’re going to pay the bills, if every option seems terrible. I’ve been there. ## TRYING TO SURVIVE DURING RECOVERY AFTER BETRAYAL **Anne:** I felt like I couldn’t even say anything during recovery after betrayal. Speaking the truth was getting me in trouble, and I didn’t know how to do anything else. There was no other option for me. It was maddening. After a year of 12-Step, I started realizing it wasn’t addiction. My husband was abusive. And then I started podcasting and interviewing women who listened and wanted to share their stories too. I meet women every day who are in that place. Where they don’t know what will happen. They’re trying to survive the best way they can. I’ve interviewed you in those moments, and I’ve also interviewed you after the fact. You know, years later when you’re feeling better. So today I have four women from our community who will share their stories: Charlotte, Luna, Rhonda, and Cassandra, so they know because they’ve been part of Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I developed the Living Free strategies, and I teach them now. Our team teaches women’s strategies in our Group Sessions. We also have The [Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/), and they’ve benefited. So many other women have benefited from the support they receive here at BTR, so they’re gonna share experiences today. Charlotte, let’s start with you. **Charlotte:** Anne, I’m so sorry. I heard your podcast, but to hear your story today, my heart just breaks. Prior to our engagement and subsequent marriage, he disclosed to me that in his teens and twenties he had struggled with pornography and compulsive sexual behaviors. ## I WAS YOUNG & NAIVE **Charlotte:** And I was young and naive, so I said, well, that’s fine. It’s in the past. And for the first year he was “sober”, if you will. I had no idea. But during our second year of marriage, I felt a disconnection during recovery after betrayal. I remember thinking, I don’t believe what you’re saying. You’re saying one thing, but I’m feeling something different. So I think what I picked up on was there was a real disconnect emotionally. . He was saying all the right things, but I didn’t feel it in my gut. And it was shortly after a wedding anniversary. I caught him in a lie, and things started to unravel. Three weeks later, I found out the truth. I felt devastated. I was angry. It was brutal. I would hear the outright lies, it doesn’t make sense to me. I think gaslighting is absolutely abusive. What was crazy making for me was on one hand here was this respectable, responsible man that I admired, respected, trusted. My husband is a trained therapist, and at the time he worked in clinical mental health. On the other hand, here is this hidden life that I didn’t know about. At that point, the gaslighting and the betrayal trauma just increased exponentially, the longer the woman is subject to that man living a lie. The third year of our marriage, I caught him in another lie. And the shame, because even though we as women haven’t done anything shameful. So many of us feel ashamed of what our husbands have done. And I can’t make a decision right now. So then I’d watch and wait and see what happens. Is he angry, defensive, blaming? Is he evasive? ## HE LIED TO EVERYBODY ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED **Anne:** Yeah, I was in that boat too with me, the psychological abuse was so extreme. There was literally not one interaction that I had with him where he didn’t gaslight or blame me. But I didn’t want to get divorced during recovery after betrayal. So I waited and I watched, and it was really disturbing to watch his decisions. He shocked me and shut down our bank account. He lied to everybody about what happened. Every single choice he made was like a nightmare, and in fact, he’s still lying about what happened years later. He’s an attorney, and back then he became a mediator too. When I found out, I was just devastated. I thought he was full-blown gone. **Charlotte:** The gaslighting and the blaming are so emotionally and psychologically damaging. That the person that you’ve trusted that’s supposed to have your back is actually the one that’s tuned against you in such a vicious way. So sorry. **Anne:** Ditto, Charlotte, I’m so sorry about everything you’ve been through. It’s so difficult. Knowing what you know now, if you could talk to your younger self, what would you tell her? **Charlotte:** Well, you know, I would tell her it’s not her fault. I think I would reiterate that to my young self. You know it’s not your fault. Whether it’s pornography use or other acting out. It’s not my fault that I trusted, it’s not our fault if they’re compulsive liars, deceive us and gaslight us. **Anne:** Yeah, thanks Charlotte for sharing today. We love having you in our community. **Charlotte:** Absolutely I’m so grateful for BTR. I can’t tell you how grateful I am, thank you. ## DISCOVERING HUSBAND’S SO-CALLED ADDICTION **Anne:** All right, Luna, your turn. Thanks for sharing today. Why don’t you start with discovering your husband’s so-called addiction. **Luna:** So like the slowest, most drawn out discovery story you’ve ever heard. We were married. I had a feeling really early, like even on my honeymoon, something’s not quite right. But at the same time, just thinking, “*Oh it’s not a big deal. I really don’t know what husbands are like. This is my first experience*.” I just dismissed those feelings. I was pregnant with our first son. It happened to be the same year that our house was wired for the internet, and I was big, tired, and struggling with my body image. And then my husband was in the office at home, and I remember thinking “What’s happening in there?” But at the same time, just thinking, “Whatever he wants to do in there, I don’t care.” And told myself that for oh, another three years, kind of embarrassing to go through the slow discovery. **Anne:** Oh, don’t feel bad. Everyone goes through that period where they don’t know what to do. Where they’re trying to figure it out. I sure did. It’s totally normal. That’s why it’s awesome that you’re part of our community, so you can feel like you’re not alone, right? **Luna:** Definitely, so then our son was born, and I remember being awake to feed him in the night. I noticed the light was on in the home office, and I just thought, “Oh wow, my husband’s awake too.” And I walked right over and opened the door. But like instantly felt this horrible flood of emotion. It felt so tangible, and I saw pornography on the computer screen, so now this thing is right in front of my eyes. ## RECOVERY AFTER BETRAYAL: I COULDN’T GO THERE **Luna:** But I shut the door and walked away. There was an awareness on his part that I had seen what happened, but my mom was in town. And she was with us for another week. Like I just couldn’t, I couldn’t go there. **Anne:** Mm-hmm **Luna:** And then I really didn’t go there, just going through the motions and coping, and existing and busy life. It just kind of dragged on. **Anne:** Did you have a religious background or ethical background that caused you to think that pornography in and of itself was wrong? Or was just an icky feeling from finding that he was viewing pornography? **Luna:** Definitely, the spiritual upbringing was the first thing that made me feel uncomfortable about pornography. That feeling was like just a confirmation of what I believed. **Anne:** So what happened like years after not talking about it? **Luna:** Well. I like to say, “I got a gift.” It wasn’t in a pretty package with a matching bow, but it was a gift to me. And that’s the gift of anger. I ended up being a very angry woman, lived with this constant low level irritation and blow-up over little stupid things. And thinking like, “This anger scares me.” I was okay being sad. And I was okay being lonely and being depressed, but the anger terrified me. ## FEELING THE EFFECTS OF TRAUMA **Luna:** I had chest pain, I had insomnia, I had anxiety especially at night. I would lay in bed at night, and just feel like my heart is going to fly out of my chest, and feel so anxious about the reality of my life that I had coped with for so many years. And so it was working through owning the reality of my life, where now suddenly I began to feel the effects of that trauma. It was really traumatic to pull my proverbial ostrich head out of the sand. It was the shock. I remember thinking, Can we go back, because dealing with what is actually happening in my life felt worse. It really did for a while. **Anne:** Yeah, I felt the same way during recovery after betrayal. I felt the most trauma after I recognized that what I had experienced wasn’t addiction, but abuse. I mean, I had been experiencing his emotional and psychological abuse for seven years. But because I thought it was addiction, I didn’t process what I was going through. And then after we separated and I started to see what it really was, the trauma just kept coming in waves and waves. And it was intense for a long time. **Luna:** I was a little bit offended with God that this was my story. I didn’t deserve it. I never asked for this to be in my story, and here I was, and how was that okay with him? So I was on the outs with God for trauma as well. I remember thinking like, “If I stay, then at least I can keep an eye on him. And I can sort of be there to protect my boys.” ## RECOVERY AFTER BETRAYAL: I DIDN’T KNOW WHERE ELSE TO GO **Luna:** That sort of became, “If I stay, then I can make sure he’s moving forward and my kids don’t end up growing up with a pornography addict for a father.” Because you know whether our marriage makes it, that was a big question. I thought, well if I stay, I can make sure he’s doing the work and moving forward, and then that’ll make him a better father for my boys. And so I’m staying to keep an eye on him. Not the best reason, of course, to stay in a little while. The bottom line for me is I didn’t know where else to go. It really was the catalyst that forced my hand. And made me say, “I need help. I have to get help. Something has to change inside of me, I can’t live like this.” And that’s when I found you. One of the things I love about your stuff is it’s small bite-sized serving of hope. A couple of things to take action on or to reflect on. **Anne:** Absolutely, yeah, I created it in bite-sized pieces because when I went through recovery after betrayal, I couldn’t really process information. I couldn’t read, I was so overwhelmed. I just needed to take one tiny step at a time. **Luna:** Exactly, in the middle of the trauma, like I couldn’t even read two pages. You give women something that they could chew, and they could swallow, and it would just carry them through one day. Maybe help them take one step, and we just need something to hold onto. **Anne:** So that’s why I decided to do a podcast. Hearing other women’s stories helps us process what we’re going through. ## THERE’S A LIFE BEYOND PAIN & TRAUMA **Anne:** The podcast is just one episode at a time. You can listen while doing laundry. You can listen while vacuuming. With [Living Free](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/), you just do a tiny bit at a time if you want. The total runtime is like two hours 50 minutes, so you can do it all at once or a little bit at a time, however it works for you. **Luna:** I love that it’s so manageable for women in trauma. With your stuff, there is a way for every woman to move forward. It’s not about whether your relationship is restored. But knowing there is peace available, and regardless of what ends up happening in your marriage, there’s a way for you to move forward. There’s a life for you beyond this pain and trauma that you’re dealing with right now. **Anne:** Yeah, and you’ll have women who will walk through it with you during recovery after betrayal. **Luna:** Exactly, you know, however your story ends, there is hope. The pain I experienced was so difficult and so altering. But at the same time, I felt like I found a way through. I knew I had to share it. **Anne:** Well, thank you so much for sharing it. You sharing your story will help other women, so thank you Luna. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## WE DON’T KNOW WHICH WAY IS UP OR WHERE TO TURN **Anne:** Okay, Rhonda, you’re up next. Would you mind sharing what helped you heal from betrayal trauma? **Rhonda:** It’s really hard Anne, because a big part of trauma and abuse is the chaos inside of ourselves. We don’t know which way is up or even where to turn. Coming to a [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group](https://www.btr.org/group/) is a great place to go, because I immediately feel understood. There’s not a whole lot of explanation that has to happen. When you come to BTR, you see a lot of nodding of heads. **Anne:** Yeah, there’s definitely a lot of head nodding and heart emojis going up in group sessions for sure. Yeah, you know, when I went through recovery after betrayal, I really wanted a quick solution. I wanted my family to be like put back together again really fast. Many women feel guilty or pressure to have some sort of timeline for healing. How have you felt about that as you attended Group Sessions? **Rhonda:** One of the things I love about BTR is that BTR coaches use methods that have been tried, that work for everybody. But another thing I love about BTR is that every individual is different. Timing is different. And so a lot of freedom to figure out really what is best for me just being guided by the coach. That’s unique to each situation, but it’s not fast for anybody. The BTR coaches, it’s a synergistic group. It’s a bunch of ladies who come from all different situations who really understand, but approach healing from a different perspective. ## RECOVERY AFTER BETRAYAL: EVERYTHING IS TURNED UPSIDE DOWN **Rhonda:** I can get the little gems from each of the coaches. And when I could put a name to what’s going on, abuse, once you’ve labeled it and recognized it, all those actions they land on him, not on you. **Anne:** Yeah, it helps know what you’re actually healing from when you’re in recovery after betrayal, like you said, abuse. Yeah. So for women listening who are hesitant to call it abuse, they’re maybe thinking he’s got like childhood trauma or maybe an addiction. Maybe they’re looking for a men’s program, like to get their husband into. Do you have any thoughts for them? **Rhonda:** You may label it as, you know, just a little problem that he has, something that he’s trying to overcome. But we can’t get rid of the effects. Everything is turned upside down and chaotic, because that’s what abusers do to us. It’s so scary to label it correctly, because of what the future might bring. You get to decide, and you get to decide again tomorrow and the next day. And the next day, your path will lead you. You don’t have to be afraid of your path. If you don’t want to get divorced, you don’t have to get divorced. If you don’t want to be separated, you don’t have to be separated. I love doing the [BTR Meditations](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). The different topics and guided meditations help me let go of all the heavy things and focus on peace and calm. I do the meditations, because sometimes we can’t get our minds and bodies to do what we know we need to do. Meditation really helps with that. And meditations allow our minds and hearts to start to release some of the pain. ## MEDITATION HELPED **Anne:** Oh, that is so great to hear. At some point in my recovery, meditation was like the only thing that helped, which is why I wanted to include it in the Living Free Workshop. I’m so glad you’re finding those meditations helpful. If you’re listening and you’re like, where are these meditations? You can go to [btr.org/livingfree](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) and find the meditations inside the [Living Free Workshop](/livingfree). But they provide immediate peace when you can’t sleep or need peace right away. I mean, it’s really good to feel that peace, especially when we didn’t do anything wrong and you feel terrible. But we’re always doing the best we can. We’ve been doing the best we can the entire time. **Rhonda:** I love that. I love that. We’re always doing the best that we can. We say, “Oh, I was such an idiot then.” No, no, I was not such an idiot. I knew my body had stored what my mind and heart couldn’t process. And sometimes the miracle is just recognition. But sometimes the miracle is physical healing. **Anne:** Yeah, I have talked to so many women who had like autoimmune disorders or physical problems. And once they separated themselves from emotional and psychological abuse, their symptoms just cleared up immediately, which was an absolute miracle. So many women pray for a miracle, maybe a physical miracle of healing. ## THIS GARDEN IS A MIRACLE **Anne:** We were gardening. And my son said to me, “Mom, this garden is a miracle. It’s so beautiful,” and he said, “Do you know what makes the miracle happen?” And I was like, “What?” This is the same son that you heard earlier on my recording. He said, “We do these little actions of planting these little seeds and watering, then we hope it will grow and fruit something good. And then the miracle occurs.” And I was like, ” Wow, you are so wise.” When I thought about the Living Free Strategies, I thought about the Israelites. There was a miracle that they could leave, but they actually had to like pack up their bags and physically walk out. God didn’t just like, you know, teleport them to the promised land. They had a lot of work they had to do to get there, which was miserable. But eventually they did get to the promised land. So as we’re thinking about miracles, always remember the planting of the seed or that we need to pick up our bags or whatever it is that we need to do, even though it’s not our fault, to receive the miracle into our lives. I think the most important thing is to focus on, not the outcome, but a state of being. Like we want the miracle to be emotional safety, not necessarily saving our marriage or getting divorced. Then we take steps toward emotional safety, and we can see the miracle occur in our lives. And we’re not tied to any outcome. We hope for emotional safety for you and your children. ## RECOVERY AFTER BETRAYAL: FEELING HOPE FOR MY LIFE AGAIN **Rhonda:** Anne, you pointed out that if we put our work towards a state of being rather than a specific outcome, God’s will grant that for us as we work towards it. And that’s where talking with people who are safe, like BTR coaches. That’s a huge miracle. **Anne:** I’m so happy to hear you say that I hear so many women who come to BTR groups, like it’s so hopeful. I feel hope for my life again. Yeah, and that’s why I appreciate so many of you writing a five-star review Apple podcast for this podcast, or doing an review on Spotify, or reviewing one of my books on Amazon. Because as you help get the word out, other women can feel this hope too. Because all of us have felt that overwhelm and just absolute sadness during recovery after betrayal. And then when women find BTR through that. They tell me over and over again, I just wish I had found it sooner. I wish I had known sooner. So thank you to those who help me get the word out, so that we can help other women find it as soon as possible, so that they can have this information. And that being said, I always tell women, “You found BTR at just the right time for you.” Like, let’s trust in the timing of the universe. It brought you, Rhonda, to us right at this time. Thank you so much for sharing today. **Rhonda:** Thank you Anne, it’s a pleasure to be with you and I love BTR. ## SURVIVAL OF BETRAYAL BY TWO DIFFERENT MEN **Anne:** Thank you. All right Cassandra, it’s your turn now, go ahead. **Cassandra:** Yes, I am a survivor of betrayal, betrayed by two different men. But the emotional infidelity of one that I was engaged to at the time was terribly wounding for me. I didn’t understand what was wrong, really. We went to two different couples therapists to try to get help for what I now call emotional domestic violence through his infidelity, and it was unclear if it was a physical infidelity. It was absolutely clear it was at least an emotional infidelity. I was just called too sensitive or overactive, and neither therapist could see it. But at the time, I was too dependent on him to leave. I just couldn’t imagine life without him. And eventually he broke up with me. Which was a great gift he gave me at that time. And then another man’s sexual infidelity, which was incredibly painful, though thankfully by that time I was in a different place. I was more independent on my own, so I could end the relationship. **Anne:** With your experience with the therapists who weren’t able to identify the abuse in the betrayal, did you feel betrayed by them as well? **Cassandra:** I felt angry. I felt enraged, but because they were in an expert position and I was struggling, I didn’t know for sure. I mean, I guess I can look back and say that they tried the best they could, but I think that healing from betrayal needs to be looked at from a domestic violence lens. ## SUPPORT GROUPS HAVE BEEN POWERFUL **Cassandra:** Now, looking back, I think they lacked insight. They lacked training, they lacked perspective. It certainly was therapy induced trauma. So gaslighting, it felt traumatic at the time, and yeah, it felt like a betrayal. **Anne:** As you know from [group sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/), so many women have that experience of the therapist not recognizing this as domestic abuse during recovery after betrayal, which is what it is, yeah. **Cassandra:** Yeah, in group, we shared stories about how many therapists had blown us off. I think the most was six. Group is where we’re feeling safe, so we can define what fits and what doesn’t, to know where to get ready. Group is very helpful to talk about what it’s like to be betrayed and unhook the blame of self that the addict, the person doing the betraying, can place on us or the therapist who doesn’t understand, or the judgmental culture. So definitely support groups have been really powerful. I think part of the problem is we don’t talk about it. So to hear women talk about things they did at the encouragement or coercion of their sexually addicted husband that made her feel uncomfortable, regretful, or ashamed. Like looking at pornography with her husband. She didn’t want to, but she did it because he was so insistent. **Anne:** Yeah, what you’re describing is sexual coercion. ## IT CAN BE OVERWHELMING **Anne:** So in group or [individual sessions](https://www.btr.org/individual/), women are really lucky at BTR to have coaches who understand. Our team understands to relieve us all from the guilt of being coerced when we didn’t understand what was happening during recovery after betrayal. **Cassandra:** Yeah, I hear that a lot. We talk a lot about what the sex addict does, and all that can also evoke great shame. I can’t believe he did that. I can’t believe he did that to me, we feel so much guilt and shame. Sex addicts can be relentless, and it can be threatening, or blackmail, or chronic manipulation, and it can be overwhelming. And I think that’s one thing that is missed in the conversations of so-called, you know, pornography being an okay way to explore sexuality, and there’s no harm caused by it. For me personally, I only worry about the labels as much as they help me. Part of healing from Betrayal trauma is trying to get our stories out there. **Anne:** Thank you so much. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [How to Deal With Angry Husband: 10 Things to Know](https://www.btr.org/how-to-deal-with-angry-husband/) **Published:** February 17, 2026 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Does your husband's anger scare you? Determine if your husband's anger is actually an abuse issue. **Content:** If you’re searching **how to deal with angry husband**, it’s probably because you’ve already tried everything—being understanding, being patient, being quieter, being “better,” being the emotional shock absorber for the whole house. And yet… nothing changes. Before you take another step, here’s the most important truth you need to hear: **Your safety—emotional, physical, spiritual—is the priority.** Everything else is secondary. His “anger issue” is not yours to decode. So many women spend years trying to figure out *why* their husband is angry: - Is he stressed? - Does he need therapy? - Did I say something wrong? - Is it childhood trauma? - Is it me? But here’s what women discover in our [Betrayal Trauma Recovery community](https://www.btr.org/group/) again and again: **Men who don’t want to be angry, aren’t. Men who use anger to control the people around them use anger as a tactic**. ## CAN HE CONTROL HIS ANGER? WATCH WHAT HE DOES IN PUBLIC One of the clearest signs something deeper is happening is this: **He has no trouble keeping it together in public.** Around friends, coworkers, church members, your kids’ teachers… he’s calm, charming, composed. But at home? He unleashes. If you’re living this split reality, there’s definItely something deeper going on. You’re not imagining it. ## I USED TO THINK MY HUSBAND HAD AN ANGER PROBLEM How to deal with angry husband? I thought my husband needed anger management. He even took multiple courses, including anger boot camp. Nothing changed. Because he didn’t have an anger problem. His problem was something else entirely. ## HOW TO DEAL WITH ANGER HUSBAND: 10 QUESTIONS THAT REVEAL THE TRUTH If you’ve been wondering how to deal with angry husband, start here. These 10 questions help clarify whether his anger is situational… or something that’s eroding your sense of safety. If you answer **yes** to any of these, it’s worth paying closer attention to the pattern—not the excuse. 1. Do you often feel hurt, ashamed, or embarrassed after his anger? 2. Are you afraid to upset him because you fear he’ll leave you or punish you emotionally? 3. Have you spent time searching for clues about why he’s angry—as if there’s a hidden code to crack? 4. Has he made subtle or direct threats? (Example: “Touch is my love language… I get depressed when you pull away.” Translation: *Give me sex or pay for it later.*) 5. Do you find yourself trying to predict his moods and make things perfect for him anticipating his anger? 6. Have you tried describing how angry he gets to other people, but they don’t seem to understand? 7. Do you feel confused about what’s true versus what he claims when he’s angry? 8. Have you ever used sex to smooth things over or prevent him from becoming angry? 9. Do you feel emotionally abandoned because of his anger? 10. Do you feel like sometimes you caused his anger? If any of these hit close to home, it’s important to know your husband’s anger has nothing to do with you, other than the fact that he’s using it to control you. ## SO ACTUALLY. . . HOW TO DEAL WITH ANGRY HUSBAND? Well, it’s sort of a trick question. Women in our community start feeling clearer when they shift from: ❌ *“How do I help him?”* to ✔️ *“How do I help myself and my kids be safe, emotionally and physically?”* That shift changes everything. [Our daily online group for women who have been betrayed in this way can validate and support you.](https://www.btr.org/group/) ## YOUR NEXT STEP TOWARD CLARITY For deeper clarity, my **Living Free Workshop** walks you step-by-step through understanding what’s really going on, without pressure for you to do anything, without therapy jargon, and without being told to “just work on the marriage.” You’re not asking for too much. You deserve emotional safety and peace. To discover if you’re actually experiencing emotional abuse, take this [free this test has 19 emotional abuse examples that women often miss.](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/) ![Does Your Husband Have an Anger Issue](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Does-Your-Husband-Have-An-Anger-Issue.webp "Does Your Husband Have an Anger Issue")## TRANSCRIPT: HOW TO DEAL WITH ANGRY HUSBAND **Anne:** Welcome to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I’m Anne. I have Janice and Cameron on the podcast today. They’re gonna share a part of their story about how to deal with angry husband. Janice, why don’t you go ahead and let’s start with your story. **Janice:** Thank you, Anne. I appreciate it. I was a victim of domestic abuse, but I didn’t recognize it. All of those years, while in that marriage, we would reach out to counselors, pastors. Usually we’d go to a pastor first and they would treat it like a marital problem. And most of the time, the attempts to get help made things worse. It really just boggled my mind that everywhere I turned to get help, whether it be the courts, law enforcement, counselors, nobody knew how to deal with our situation. I came through a church where the pastor didn’t know what to do. He thought that I should just get out of the marriage. And when he told me that, I thought, well, this man doesn’t know Jesus. I went to a church that believed more like I did, and they told me, well, you need to submit as long as he’s not asking you to sin. And the more I submitted or obeyed or bowed down to him, the more things would get worse. ## SUBMISSION WAS TAUGHT LIKE OBEDIENCE **Anne:** Yeah, I went through a similar experience. I felt like I was like facing this problem head on. I just don’t know exactly what the problem is. And everyone I went to for help didn’t tell me what it was. And so I did everything right. But the people supposed to help me did not help. You mentioned your pastor said, “You should consider divorce,” And you thought to yourself, this man doesn’t know Jesus. I actually hear that a lot. Women hear my podcast and they think I’m like pro-divorce or maybe not Christian or something. When I very, very much am. And I think Jesus doesn’t want women abused. **Janice:** Absolutely. I had actually grown up in a pretty liberal church, and then after marriage I moved to one with strict teaching on men’s and women’s roles. Submission was taught like obedience. And then of course all the years I became a homeschool mom, listening to things like Focus on the Family. Where they talk about how your children will be better off if you stay married, that a divorce is so painful and hurtful to children, and my own parents had divorced. So I really did not believe in divorce. And it got to the point that my daughter, who was 12 years old at the time, said, Mom, why don’t you just get out? And I said, God hates divorce. I kept asking myself, *[what does God say about divorce and marriage](https://www.btr.org/what-does-god-say-about-divorce-and-marriage/)?* But I had about a million things in my head that I had come to believe, put there by my husband. He would say things like, You need to submit. I’m the head of this house. He would use scripture to keep me under control. ## INTERPRETING ABUSE AS ONLY PHYSICAL **Anne:** How did you realize that submitting to abuse or evil wasn’t what Jesus wanted? **Janice:** I don’t even know if I came to that recognition until after I got out. My ex was a physician, so we worked with a psychologist one-on-one for a week. I had been telling myself, this is not abuse. He doesn’t mean it. He just flips out and he really can’t control it. It’s like a little nervous breakdown, but I realized he used everything against me, and that is not physical violence. Before that, I interpreted abuse as only physical, and I had had some incidents, but they were few and far between. We could go years with no physical abuse, but then when they did happen, I would get shoved or blocked in a room. it did build up and was worse there towards the end than in the beginning. **Anne:** Me too. I think I only had maybe three like episodes where he actually touched me, and he didn’t really even harm me except for the last time when he got arrested, he sprained my fingers. But for me, the emotional and psychological abuse was way worse. And that’s what took me forever to wrap my head around. And that’s what’s hard is that if we don’t recognize what’s happening and we go to get help from like a therapist or the church. They don’t recognize it, so they’re not gonna help us. **Janice:** Their church is not understanding, just like victims. We don’t understand the dynamic, so how can we expect them to understand? ## HOW TO DEAL WITH ANGRY HUSBAND: QUOTING SCRIPTURE AND PRAYING DOESN’T MAKE SOMEONE RIGHTEOUS **Anne:** Yeah. Church is especially problematic when it comes to abusers because they go to church and they read their scriptures and they pray and they know how to act like a God-fearing man, you know? And so you can’t wrap your head around that. They’re intentionally lying and manipulating you, and neither can the people at church, but just because they can quote scripture and pray and they sound righteous. If they are lying, if they’re using inappropriate media, if they’re having affairs, if they’re screaming at their family all the time, if they’re like throwing their weight around because they’re selfish. ‘Cause they don’t wanna have to cook dinner, they don’t want a dirty toilet. They’re not righteous, no matter how many scriptures they can quote. They should be studying [scriptures on betrayal.](https://www.btr.org/scriptures-on-betrayal/) **Janice:** Yeah, and they know that. Jesus talked about wolves among sheep, right? So I think that they know that and they will actually use the church for their own gain. I mean, Paul talks about it in his epistles. **Anne:** You and I both have physical abuse as part of our story, and with mine it was extremely minimal. I’m not trying to minimize his abuse. I’m just saying like one time he pushed me into the bed, but it didn’t hurt me. It was just scary. And then there was all the punching walls and physical intimidation, which is also physical abuse. I just didn’t see it as that at the time, I could tell that he was getting really mad because he wanted me to back off and I wouldn’t back off. ## EMOTIONAL ABUSE IS DANGEROUS, HOW TO DEAL WITH ANGRY HUSBAND? **Anne:** I would just keep going and I thought like maybe he’ll punch me and then at least I’d have a bruise. I know a lot of women who think that, ‘ cause without the physical violence, you’re still being severely abused. It’s just so much harder to figure out. How to deal with angry husband? **Janice:** I would much rather he hit me. To me, the emotional abuse can be so much worse than physical, depending on the type of physical abuse. **Anne:** Well, yeah, ’cause it’s really clear if someone punches you in the face. But the manipulation and the gaslighting, like impossible to figure out sometimes. And that’s not our fault. It’s his fault. ‘Cause he is like literally hiding stuff. Also, there are many stories, and I’ve talked about them on the podcast like Susan Powell and Leah Moses, Michael Haight, and the dentist from Colorado. I’ve done episodes about the warning [signs your husband might kill you](https://www.btr.org/signs-your-husband-might-kill-you/). They were not physically abusive and then they killed their family members suddenly. It’s not like they had a history of physical abuse before they committed murder, but they did have a history of emotional and psychological abuse. **Janice:** Yes, that’s the thing . I’ve got a friend whose husband was just emotionally abusive, just emotionally abusive for years. She left and went to her parents’ house, so he stormed in and killed her parents and left her for dead. **Anne:** That is awful. I am so sorry. I am so sorry. Oh yeah. I mean, that’s the worst case scenario. And not making light of that at all, but like it’s also the worst case scenario to be continually emotionally and psychologically abused. ## IF YOU OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS YOU SHOULD BE BLESSED **Anne:** There’s no silver lining to abuse, and that’s why it’s so traumatizing. It’s traumatizing, just that the person you trusted with your life betrayed you. How to deal with angry husband? **Janice:** Abuse in and of itself is a huge betrayal of the bond that we are supposed to have. It is our most intimate relationship, and so there’s nothing like that. It’s such a deep wound. One day I’m saying, Lord, nobody knows what’s this feels like. Nobody understands what I’m going through right now. And it felt like the Holy Spirit dropped all over me and I could feel Jesus saying, I know. I know what it’s like to be betrayed by somebody I love. I know what it’s like to have somebody that I trusted turn on me. He was betrayed. So we have a God who understands when we are experiencing betrayal trauma. People, they don’t appreciate us. They see us more as objects and possessions than partners, and so it’s just a really difficult thing to deal with. I still had a lot of faith, but I also really questioned God’s goodness. If he’s good, why is he allowing this to happen to me? **Anne:** Yeah, especially if you followed the council of your church and you were doing what you thought Jesus wanted you to do. If you obey the commandments, you’re supposed to be blessed. It’s really hard to feel any blessings when there’s an abusive man standing between you and the blessings that God wants to give you. In terms of the church, like Jesus said, that if you lust after a woman, you’ve committed adultery. And so here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we view pornography use as abusive. ## HOW TO DEAL WITH ANGRY HUSBAND: ABUSERS HAVE MINDSETS OF ENTITLEMENT **Anne:** And I’m coming out with a book soon that talks all about that. In addition to all the other reasons why lying and betrayal is a domestic abuse issue, and a lot of people disagree with me, they don’t think that pornography use, or lying about pornography use, or an affair is emotional and psychological abuse. But I’m like, you’re just not educated about emotional and psychological abuse, and I wasn’t either. So … **Janice:** Definitely they go hand in hand. Because the heart behind domestic abuse is basically objectifying as possessions. And that is exactly what pornography does. It’s looking at women as objects. I mean, pornography changes and rewires the brain and the way that men can have intimacy with women . Abusers have mindsets loaded with entitlement, pornography is also an entitlement issue. Like I can look at anything I want to any time. There are no rules for me when it comes to this department. It is definitely the same mindset that you see. **Anne:** Yeah, which to me means that if you are in a relationship with an active pornography user, you are in a relationship with an abuser. I say this all the time: Drug addicts abuse drugs. Alcoholics abuse alcohol. Sex addicts abuse people. So people are the thing that they abuse. I’m just so frustrated with like therapists or clergy because they say the solution to addiction is connection and they’re asking a victim of abuse to support her abuser, and that is unethical on all sorts of levels. I also don’t think it’s doing the abuser any favors. Like I don’t think he’s actually gonna get help with that approach. ## HE’S CHOOSING HIS BEHAVIOR **Anne:** It took us a long time to wrap our heads around the fact that he was emotionally and psychologically abusive. What would you share with women who were in the situation that we were in at one point? **Janice:** Well, you remember I talked about going into this program to learn how to deal with angry husband and I told the guy who was facilitating our week long intensive, I said, he just loses it. He can’t control his anger. He just flips out and he starts breaking things. And he goes, well, wait a minute. So when he is breaking things, who stuff does he break? Does he break your stuff only or his stuff and everybody’s stuff. And I said, well, it’s mostly just my stuff. Then he says, does he flip out on people at work like that? And I said, no, not really. He said, well, then that tells me that he’s got control over this. He’s choosing this behavior. A lot of times the truth is ugly. We have to admit that ugly truth before we can embrace beautiful truth. And the truth is that he uses kindness to manipulate. It’s not that he’s losing control at all. It’s that he’s using, whether it be anger or kindness, he’s using both to control. And that was a painful eye-opener to me. It was a very needed one for me to finally move towards healing. **Anne:** Yeah, that was a big one for me too. Well, Janice thank you so much for being here today. I really appreciate you sharing your story and your thoughts. **Janice:** Well, thank you for having me. I enjoyed it. ## ATTRIBUTING HIS GOOD TRAITS TO ME **Anne:** Cameron, go ahead. **Cameron:** So I got married really young and I had no idea [hes love bombing me](https://www.btr.org/hes-love-bombing-you/). It felt flattering. He was saying all the sweet things, and he talked trash about every woman he dated before me, how disgusting or nasty his exes were. And part of me felt special. Like, wow, he thinks I’m different. One morning over breakfast, he was like, I think I need a break. But like the night before he told me he wanted to marry me, I was devastated. And then a week later, he shows back up saying, I made a huge mistake. And the relief, I mean, I don’t, I don’t think there’s anything more intoxicating than the relief that follows emotional torture. I took it as a sign that he was the one. He’d say things like, I stopped looking at inappropriate media because of you. I’m closer to my family because of you. I’m doing better in school because of you. He attributed all his good traits to me. **Anne:** I’m so glad you brought that up, because then when he doesn’t do well in school or he starts looking at pornography again, then he blames you because you weren’t helping him be a better person anymore. How to deal with angry husband? **Cameron:** Yeah, he was just setting me up to blame me for not doing that stuff later. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## HOW TO DEAL WITH ANGRY HUSBAND: HIS LITTLE ABUSIVE ACCIDENTS? **Anne:** Before you got on to interview, you were telling me about like the covert physical abuse. Like he would never punch you in the face, but he’d sort of like pretend like he couldn’t see you and step on your foot and stuff like that. Can you talk about that? **Cameron:** The whole time there were these little accidents, opening a door when I was standing too close, so it hit me. Accidentally tripping me. I was like, wow. He’s super strong and big and he just didn’t see me there. **Anne:** Yeah. It’s like a threat. **Cameron:** Totally, his anger was always looming over me. I never knew when he was gonna lose it or how to deal with angry husband. **Anne:** Yeah. I experienced that as well. My, um, ex punched a wall a couple times and then that hole in the wall, like it just sat there and every time I saw it I thought, wow, he’s capable of that. **Cameron:** I totally know what you mean. **Anne:** . Like he could destroy stuff, but he never destroyed anything that he cared about. **Cameron:** He told me I just lost control, but he didn’t hit his beloved TV. And I’d think, okay, but if you really lost control, wouldn’t you have hit me? So clearly you have control. **Anne:** If I lost it, is there excuse? That’s a serious threat. That’s like even worse because he could really hurt somebody if he loses control and punches stuff. I don’t think they realize that it actually makes them look worse if they say they lost it. ## HIS ANGER IS OUT OF CONTROL **Cameron:** I know he might like rip one of our pet’s heads off or something. Anyway, one 4th of July, we were driving to his brother’s lake house and he goes, my parents emotionally abused me. I need you with me at all times while we’re there. So I tried to stay near him, but of course there’s all the kids running around and I’d come and go and check in. But at one point, one of the kids needed my help in the garage. He found me, got mad and punched a hole in his brother’s garage wall. I mean, crazy town. His brother’s all furious and I’m so embarrassed I’m like, it was my fault. I made him mad. His brother shrugged, like, whatever. My husband apologized and said he’d fix it. Later my mother-in-law asked where he was and I said, he’s in the garage fixing the hole. And I remember thinking, why is no one asking? What the heck is wrong with him? And it wasn’t just them. I reached out to our pastor, my family, I said, I mean, “Sure his pornography is a problem, but his anger is out of control.” And everybody was like, be a better wife, have more sex, be patient, use I statements, read *The Power of a Praying Wife*, avoid the four horsemen of the apocalypse. **Anne:** I also tried to avoid the four horsemen of the apocalypse, like trying not to stonewall, trying not to criticize what he is doing, you’re supposed to tell him your feelings, but you can’t tell him your feelings. So like if you say something, you’re crazy and then if you don’t say something, you’re crazy. How to deal with angry husband? ![How to Deal with Angry Husband](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Does-My-Husband-Have-An-Anger-Problem.webp "Does My Husband Have an Anger Problem")## A WHOLE UNFIT MOTHER CAMPAIGN **Anne:** Like if I go to therapy, there’s something wrong with me. If I don’t go to therapy, there’s something wrong with me. How to deal with angry husband? **Cameron:** Yes, that! How can it not be overwhelming when they tell you, you have to be absolutely perfect so he can like be nice. And I did everything they told me. And because he was so charming in public, so helpful and humble and worship-team perfect. No one believed me. He’s telling everyone I was lazy, dependent, a whole unfit mother campaign. Telling people I partied every weekend. Left him with the kids. **Anne:** They told me, “You’re trying to ruin your family.” Did they use that one on you? **Cameron:** I didn’t hear that one, but the one I heard over and over and over was, “She doesn’t realize how good she has it.” Then there was the sexual coercion, which I had no idea what that was until I found BTR. If I wasn’t in the mood. Mostly because he’d yelled at me like 10 minutes before, he’d sulk, ignore me, punish me with silence. I realized he only loved me when I gave him exactly what he wanted, and I didn’t wanna poke the bear, didn’t want the sulking or the anger or any more holes in the wall. And anytime I brought up help, he’d say, I’m gonna change. I’ll find a program next week. But the minute I was like, when? He’d explode. Then came the counselors. Ooh, the counselors one told him I was controlling. Another one said his needs weren’t met, that he should demand more from me. That same one told me my husband was just frustrated because of my anxiety. ![Does Your Husband Have an Anger Problem](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Does-Your-Husband-Have-An-Anger-Problem.webp "Does Your Husband Have an Anger Problem")## HOW TO DEAL WITH ANGRY HUSBAND: HE’S AN ADDICT BECAUSE OF LOW SELF-ESTEEM **Cameron:** Then my husband starts seeing this revered CSAT ’cause he now has a sex addiction. And that guy is like, he’s an addict because of his low self-esteem. **Anne:** The sexual addiction thing is so problematic. It’s not that pornography isn’t addictive and it is not that he is not a pornography addict. But in relation to you, he’s emotionally abusive. How to deal with angry husband? His addiction isn’t your problem, his abuse is your problem. But when his addiction comes into the mix, people are like, oh, he’s willing to be vulnerable. He is willing to talk about his addiction. He is willing to go to a treatment program, so things are gonna get better. After I’ve interviewed so many women, I found that is like rarely the case. Because she’s not experiencing his addiction. So as I’m listening to your story, I’m like bracing myself. **Cameron:** I know, right? So my husband comes home like, this isn’t about you. It’s about me loving myself. And I’m sitting there thinking, okay, so you’re gonna go on a three hour beach run every day while I raise our seven kids alone. I thought his family would care, nope. Within days of me asking them for support, I became the villain. I was crazy. I had borderline personality disorder. They actually told me, we know he has a temper, but you married him. You knew, so that’s on you. **Anne:** So wait. Their contention was that you consented to emotional abuse because you married him, because that’s not the thing. **Cameron:** Right. Totally. ## FOCUSING ON EMOTIONAL SAFETY **Cameron:** And during that week, I prayed harder than I’ve ever prayed in my life. Sat at my computer and I typed in everything I was feeling. And one of your podcasts popped up. That’s how I found BTR. **Anne:** That’s amazing. How to deal with angry husband? I’ve heard that from so many women who were like praying and they sat down on their computer and they found BTR. I am so grateful that you found us. Our group sessions, and the workshop focus on your emotional safety only. That’s it. **Cameron:** Yeah. It’s so different than any other type of therapy or program and it’s so much better. It actually makes sense. After I found you everything shifted. I started learning your strategies in the workshop and how to use boundaries that actually worked. Unlike that dumb CSAT that had me set the stupidest boundaries. From BTR, I learned that nothing he did was because he felt ashamed or had low self-esteem. It was because he chose abuse. I started doing the meditations in your workshop. They helped a ton. I went to like six group sessions a week. I could finally think again. And I could feel my own feelings instead of the ones he assigned to me. ## SO GRATEFUL FOR BTR **Cameron:** I started to trust myself. Meanwhile, he’s losing weight, and everyone is suddenly so worried about him. Women coming up to me like, he looks so thin. Are you guys okay? Our kids are falling apart, and no one even asks them how they’re doing. And the church board completely bought into all his lies. They were like, why won’t you let him come home? Can’t you talk to him differently? Don’t say things that make him mad. It was awful. Truly awful. I would’ve never made it through without the workshop and the BTR community, the coaches, the podcast, everything. I don’t know what I would’ve done without BTR. I’m so grateful. **Anne:** Yeah, that’s why I created BTR, because when I went through it, I couldn’t find help. I had the same experience that you did, like going to tons of therapists that couldn’t help. trying to find out how to deal with angry husband. Thank you so much, Cameron, for sharing your story today. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast **Tags:** emotional abuse --- ### [Scared and Unsure? Best Private Support Group for Marriage Problems](https://www.btr.org/support-group-for-marriage-problems/) **Published:** February 24, 2026 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Victims of abuse often experience trauma when we try to get help. **Content:** If you’re searching for a support group for marriage problems because your husband’s behavior is starting to scare you, or because traditional counseling hasn’t helped, you’re in the right place. Most women who find BTR begin exactly where you are right now: scared, unsure, and trying to figure out who they can safely talk to when their marriage feels confusing or frightening. But here’s what almost no one tells you: - Not every support group for marriage problems is emotionally safe for women. - Not every counselor understands. - And not every institution knows how to help you. Today’s episode explores why the struggle to find the right type of support group for marriage problems is actually a systemic issue. You’ll hear from sociologist Dr. Nicole Bedera, whose research exposes how universities often fail women who are scared, even if they follow every “correct” path to get help. And then you’ll meet **Haley**, a woman whose college experiences mirror what so many married women face in counseling offices, churches, Title IX, and even courtrooms. Their stories may not be about marriage directly, but the patterns are heartbreakingly similar, where women are - seeking help - blamed or minimized - told to “be fair” to the man who hurt them - pushed into silence - left without the clarity or support they needed If you’ve been wondering where to turn, or what kind of support group for marriage problems can actually help, here are five truths from this episode that will help you find the right support. ## **1. A SUPPORT GROUP FOR MARRIAGE PROBLEMS ISN’T USUALLY BUILT FOR CLARITY** A lot of marriage-based groups focus on: - communication skills - mutual responsibility - serving each other But since you’ve already tried these things, more of it likely won’t help clarify what’s actually going on if you’re confused about what’s going on in your marriage, ## **2. IF YOU’RE UNSURE WHAT’S GOING ON WITH YOUR HUSBAND, IT’S LIKELY NOT A MARRIAGE PROBLEM** Women often think: - “He isn’t always like this.” - “I’m probably overreacting.” - “He’s stressed. Maybe that’s all this is.” But confusion is information. Your body senses something is amiss before your mind has language for it. Any support group for marriage problems or helper who tells you you’re “too sensitive” or “too emotional” is not equipped to help you. ## **3. INSTITUTIONS OFTEN PROTECT THE PERSON HURTING YOU** This is the clearest thread between Nicole’s research and the stories we hear from married women every day. When women are confused, universities, churches, pastors, counselors, or courts, don’t support women who need answers. They act as a mediator between two parties, but if he’s lying, it will just be more of the same. The best support group for marriage problems will break this pattern and give you clarity, without you having to communicate with him more, especially since communicating with him hasn’t cleared up confusion in the past. ## **4. WHEN MANIPULATIVE MEN USE SYSTEMS TO THEIR ADVANTAGE, A SUPPORT GROUP FOR MARRIAGE PROBLEMS IS ESSENTIAL** This is one of the hardest truths women aren’t told, but one of the most important. When a woman is confused by her husband, it’s usually because he’s lying to her and … - charming counselors - throwing her under the bus with church leaders - appearing calm while you appear shaken - using systems to make you look “unstable” or “dramatic” That’s why Haley’s story matters for married women too. Her abusers used university structures the same way husbands use counseling or clergy, to stay in control and keep the woman quiet. A safe support group for marriage problems knows these patterns and can help you navigate them. ## **5. THE BEST SUPPORT FOR MARRIAGE PROBLEMS IS CONFIDENTIAL** A true **support group for marriage problems** should: - protect your confidentiality - help you trust your instincts - give you clarity - never push you toward something that scares you Women deserve to have clarity about what’s going on, long before they ever step into a counseling office or try to get help from an institution that may not understand. We understand and you can receive live support, [attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session](https://www.btr.org/group/) ## AS YOU LISTEN TO THIS EPISODE. . . Notice how both women in these interviews talk about trying to get help in all the “correct” ways and how each system responded, they were… - doubted - blamed - minimized If marriage counseling, recovery programs, support groups for marriage problems, religious leaders, Title IX offices, or courts have left you confused or unsafe, today’s episode will help you understand why. If you need clarity in your marriage, here’s my [Clarity After Betrayal](https://www.btr.org/clarity/) workshop. ## TRANSCRIPT: WHEN YOU DON’T KNOW WHERE TO TURN FOR HELP **Anne:** We’re gonna start with Dr. Badera. She’s a sociologist, an author of the book, *On The Wrong Side: How Universities Protect Perpetrators and Betray Survivors*. Her research focuses broadly on how our social structures contribute to survivor trauma. Nicole puts her work into practice at the Center for Institutional Courage. After I get done talking to Nicole, I’ll have Haley share her story. Welcome Nicole. **Nicole:** Thank you. I’m so excited to be here. **Anne:** I’m excited too. Listeners to this podcast are trying to get clarity after betrayal. They often start by searching for a support group for marriage problems. And most of the time, they can’t get clarity because the people they go to to get help aren’t able to help them because they don’t know what’s going on. Your work focuses on students trying to get help on college campuses, but I think it really intersects. Because in both cases, they don’t get the information or support they need. Can you talk about your research? **Nicole:** I focus on what happens for students still in school. Victims report to most of the Title IX office most of the time. You might have heard about it in the news. It’s been everywhere over the past 10 years, but it’s quieted down quite a bit recently. I spent a year inside one of those Title IX offices interviewing the victims, perpetrators, and school administrators who had the most control over their cases. So in that setting, all knew something was wrong. They might not know how to label it, or how to label it in a way that the system would recognize. That’s something survivors deal with a lot. Especially since a lot of this stuff is just made to feel normal for women. ## SEEKING HELP THROUGH THE TITLE IX OFFICE PARALLELS SEEKING A SUPPORT GROUP FOR MARRIAGE PROBLEMS **Nicole:** There’s this idea that this is what you should expect when you go to college. And so there were some that they weren’t sure what was going on, but they knew that something had affected usually their education. Or they felt unsafe, unsettled, and they ended up in my study because they went to their school for help. Either through the victim advocacy office, which on a college campus, can help survivors with whatever they need, but many things that have nothing to do with the perpetrator. Including things like they need an extension on an assignment, or there’s a specific class they want to take, but their perpetrator wants to take it. So they’re trying to coordinate to figure out when they can take it in the semester that they won’t be in the same classroom, things like that. Or they went through the Title IX office to try to report what happened to them, to try to seek some kind of safety or justice. But many themes are not that different from all the other places that maybe you’ve considered going to for help. **Anne:** When a woman has a situation where she needs help, but she doesn’t quite know where to go to find help, it’s so heartbreaking for me. I see this often with wives trying to figure it out after their husband’s betrayal. We usually do couple therapy, or maybe like addiction recovery, trying to figure out how can I start to feel safe again in my marriage. Why do you think this idea of safety and how to feel safe again is just so hard for pretty much everybody to understand? Like what do you mean she feels unsafe and what are we supposed to do about it? ## THE PRIMARY CONCERN OF THE TITLE IX OFFICE **Nicole:** There are a couple of issues that we run into. One of them is that a lot of the systems that we think are going to help, won’t help. If you think about a college campus, for example. Students are told, if you’re experiencing sexual violence, sexual harassment, or any kind of gender discrimination, come to the Title IX office and they will help you. But that’s not what the Title IX office is concerned with. Their primary concern is what do we do with this perpetrator. Sometimes doing something about the perpetrator would help if the school would, which they often hesitate to do. But a lot of the time, that’s not meeting a survivor’s need in a real way. That’s the same issue that comes up if you go to a couple therapist or support group for marriage problems. I think many people who’ve tried for help at any of these institutions have an experience where you’re coming in for something really tangible for yourself. So an example I gave earlier is you are, let’s say you’re a victim in a university setting, and you show up on the first day of class. And you see your perpetrator is in class with you, and that the class will discuss sexual violence as a topic. So this just feels impossible for you to be safe in this environment, because it’s going to remind you of your trauma. You might have to watch your perpetrator interact. It’s going to be just a place where your body and mind respond to the traumatic experiences you’ve already had. **Anne:** And the trauma you continue to experience because the likelihood of him gaslighting you through this whole thing is like off the charts. ## THE SYSTEM FOCUSES ON WHAT IT MEANS FOR THE PERPETRATOR **Nicole:** You’re right. It’s unlikely that if you’re in that class with your perpetrator. You and your perpetrator will share the same public narrative about why you can’t sit next to him in class. And so the perpetrator might disparage the victim, might tell lies about what happened to avoid accountability. You’re right. A victim in that scenario reasonably is just thinking, I just want this guy out of my class, right? I want to take the class I want to take and complete my degree on time. Why is this affecting me in this scenario? Most people, if you think about it rationally, would say, that’s a reasonable set of requests. You know, you’ve already experienced a sexual assault. That’s enough of a burden. You shouldn’t have to sacrifice your education too. But in our current university system, there is no way to get that outcome. And so instead, when a victim comes forward and says, “This is what I need,” the entire system is focused on, “But what would this mean for the perpetrator? Is it fair to him? Is this going to be too much for him?” That happens within a support group for marriage problems. The focus can be on the perpetrator. This is one of the stories I start the book with. Even if the system works as it claims, it can’t fix it. There is no version of a sexual assault response in our society that can intervene in two weeks. We don’t really have a version of that right now. That’s a big part of why coming forward is so harmful, because they will tell you to wait. They will re-traumatize you. They will force you back into communication, into being in the same room with your perpetrator. ## METAPHOR OF HOT STOVE WITH WOMEN IN SCENARIOS INCLUDING A SUPPORT GROUP FOR MARRIAGE PROBLEMS **Anne:** I help all sorts of women in all sorts of scenarios. But one that I’m thinking of right now is a woman with a protective order, and he continues to violate the protective order. And she keeps calling it in, and then they have to have a hearing about it. And the hearing isn’t for like three months. In the meantime, there’s no protection for her. To hear the prosecutor talk about the date of the court hearing, rather than to hear somebody say, “I care about you. We’re going to do something so that he can’t come around you anymore.” That’s what she needs to hear. But for some reason, that’s like beyond their comprehension. **Nicole:** I use this metaphor putting your hand on a hot stove. Right now, our systems just tell the victim, pretend it’s not burning you. Just keep being burned while we decide what to do. And if it is burning you and you can’t handle it, there must be something wrong with you. And a better system would say, let’s turn off the stove. We’re just going to turn it off and we’re going to take a minute to figure out what to do next. **Anne:** This happens in marriages all the time. Because the support group for marriage problems, the professional counselor, clergy, or any number of people she’s going to for help, don’t identify that “the stove is on,” to use your metaphor. They’re like, “Something’s wrong with you because you’re burned for no reason.” **Nicole:** Right. Or let’s try to evenly manage this. There’s this real temptation in a lot of these systems to say, “Well, why don’t both people come to the table and offer something?” ## VICTIMS JUST WANT TO FEEL SAFE **Nicole:** And so that would be akin in the same metaphor to saying, “Well, why don’t we have the stove turned down a little bit? And why don’t we have the person with their hand on the stove stop complaining they’re being burned?” And that doesn’t make sense. We as a culture are comfortable asking for more sacrifices from victims, as long as it’s in the name of giving an advantage to their perpetrator. But we know that abuse takes place when there is a power inequity. And so if that’s the reason we’re saying both people have to do something or the victim can’t get what they need. Because we want to give a benefit to the perpetrator, that will always deepen that inequity. It’s always going to deepen that power disparity, and that can make the abuse worse. **Anne:** My eye is twitching. The other thing I think is interesting when it comes to reporting or not reporting. For me and many women who have been through it, reporting wasn’t the issue. We just wanted to feel safe. I didn’t necessarily want my ex husband to go to jail. I just wanted him to leave me alone. In my personal case, I had a protective order. The criminal court said, “Do not talk to him, you have a protective order,” but the civil court ordered me to talk to him because we share children. So for eight years, my ex abused me post divorce. A man I have a protective order against, who I do not want to talk to. But the civil court forces me to talk to him because of my kids. I didn’t want to report his abuse, so he went to jail. ## THE TITLE IX DEBATE **Anne:** I think that’s the thing that people have a hard time with, especially with custody cases, where the judge is like, “Well, I can’t take away custody because then I’d be calling him an abuser. And then what? He’d go to prison.” Victims want to be safe. And in many of these civil cases, especially with kids. The safe parent, the mother, is seeking a support group for marriage problems, she is not trying to throw him in jail. And same thing in college, victims are just asking that he doesn’t go to this class, maybe he transfers schools. But for some reason, they equate it to prison. **Nicole:** That’s exactly right. And I want to say that this is a new problem. And the Title IX debate is actually the center of why this is happening throughout society. So, a little history, in 1972, a law passed. And that law said sex discrimination is illegal on college campuses that receive federal funding. And that’s all schools, to be clear. Even Harvard accepts a lot of funds from the federal government to keep their doors open. They would have a very hard time keeping their doors open without those federal funds. And the law itself is just a single sentence. The law isn’t super clear about everything that’s included and not included. So there were a series of court cases to try to figure that out. One of them was in 1980, Alexander v. Yale, and that was the first court case that said that sexual violence should be illegal on a college campus, that it should be something that schools should do something about, and they should have their own internal proceedings to manage sexual violence. ## COLLEGES DON’T FOLLOW THE LAW AND WOMEN SEEKING A SUPPORT GROUP FOR MARRIAGE PROBLEMS **Nicole:** And the focus here wasn’t about sending people to jail. That’s what you could call the police for, if that’s what you wanted. This is specifically for scenarios where victims’ educations were impacted by their sexual assaults, intimate partner violence, stalking, or whatever they experienced. And so, the Department of Education had argued that schools need to do something to ensure that violence doesn’t interfere with the quality of education you receive from the school, including things like if there’s a known perpetrator on campus. Let’s say he’s a professor, let’s say he’s withholding good grades unless students provide sexual favors, which is what that 1980 court case was about. Part of what Title IX would require is removing the perpetrator from campus, because obviously no woman can get a fair education from that person. And so the focus is on restoring those educational rights. The issue was that schools just didn’t do it. And so every few years, the Department of Education would remind schools that they had to do something about sexual harassment and violence, and they just didn’t do it. And for the most part, it didn’t capture much attention until the Obama administration. **Anne:** Was part of their justification for not doing their job them thinking, “If it was bad enough, she’d call the police.” **Nicole:** Certainly. *Inside Higher Ed* conducted a survey in 2015, where they asked university presidents, do you think campus sexual violence is a problem on your campus? And the vast, vast, vast majority said, “No, that’s a problem at other schools. We don’t have to worry about it,” which is not true. ## THE LAW CAPTURES NATIONAL ATTENTION **Nicole:** By the way, we have yet to find a university that doesn’t have sexual violence as a problem. And so, yes, that’s part of how they justified it, “We don’t want to handle this, this is a criminal act, not a civil act.” But that’s not what the law said. And so, the Obama administration sent out another one of these reminder letters, and for whatever reason, it became hotly politicized. And in that moment, a group of Harvard professors, law professors, wrote an essay saying the Title IX approach the Obama administration required wasn’t right. Because it didn’t allow the same kind of due process protections that the criminal justice system does. So exactly what you’re saying, that’s what they said. And to be clear, a lot of these Harvard Law professors were not specialized in issues of gender based violence. And the average lawyer gets very little training during law school about sexual violence or harassment, especially in civil settings. So they were just wrong. They were just flat out wrong. But this argument captured the national attention. It went viral. Other judges and lawyers think there are due process protections on college campuses that never existed before. Prior to this moment, if you faced student disciplinary proceedings on a college campus, your only rights were to know your accusations, and what the violation would be, and have some chance to respond, but there were no rules about how you would do that. So some schools did it in writing, some did it through hearings, some weren’t doing much of anything. ## A GUEST SPEAKER EXAMPLE **Nicole:** And so, this new idea that anything involving sexual violence must be held to a criminal standard of due process. It is only a few years old. It’s not too late to reverse it, and we should, because the stakes are so different. I call it “Accumulated Fantasies of Disaster.” Where, exactly like you’re describing, a victim says, “I need one thing,” and sometimes on college campuses, that is safety for their kids. Married people live in student housing on college campuses with children, living in essentially the dorms, but family dorms. And that’s often what they’re looking for. I am trying to escape an abusive marriage. I need a support group for marriage problems. My partner is still on campus, and we’re still living in the same dorm. And is there another unit I can move into with my kids as I go through divorce proceedings, as I go through a custody battle, essentially saying exactly what you are. “Well, if we do that, it could lead to all these other issues for the perpetrator down the line.” And some stories that I heard during my time in the field were really unreasonable. For example: A guest speaker who came to a campus sexually harassed a woman. The guest speaker was CEO of a company. And he stalked and sexually harassed her since meeting her. He had no other tie to the campus community. So from a legal perspective, the university had no obligation to him. They don’t have to let him come back and speak again. They don’t even have to let him come on campus if they don’t want to, because he’s not a student. He’s not a professor. He has no rights to this space. ## MEN ACCUSED DON’T HAVE BAD THINGS HAPPEN TO THEM: FINDING A SUPPORT GROUP FOR MARRIAGE PROBLEMS **Nicole:** But instead, the Title IX investigators wrapped themselves in knots to think of all of these horrible things that could happen to him if they took the victim’s wishes into consideration, which was just, please don’t invite him back to be guest speaker again. I don’t want this to happen to anybody else. And they said things like, “He could get a bad reputation, he could lose his job, he could be incarcerated.” And it’s not true. Because a lot of these proceedings are private. They can’t hand private files to the police. That’s illegal. That’s not how it works. People have privacy rights. Educational documents, in particular, are really private. But that’s what they’re thinking. They’re saying, “If you come forward, every bad thing will happen to this person.” And yeah, we’re talking about a CEO. Who’s going to fire him, himself? It doesn’t make sense. **Anne:** Also, heaven forbid, a bad thing happen to a rapist. **Nicole:** I completely agree. I think we can all see from just examples in pop culture, presidential races, whatever it might be. Men accused of sexual assault tend not to have bad things happen to them. Women seeking a support group for marriage problems face this as well. If anything, I argue they tend to get benefits. The Johnny Depp trial is a great example. He made an entire comeback. He was having a hard time finding work in Hollywood because of his own behavior on set. Now he’s getting this second chance. Because he’s known as a perpetrator of domestic violence, which he never refuted, by the way. ## ACCUMULATED FANTASIES OF DISASTER **Nicole:** He never refuted that he had physically harmed Amber Heard. He never said that. And he simply argued that she deserved it, which worked. **Anne:** That’s insane, it’s wild. We should see through it, but we don’t, because we come to a place from victim blaming first. I kept seeing people worry about worst-case scenarios…accumulated fantasies of disaster about what might happen to perpetrators. And how bad it’ll be if we say out loud what they did. But I interviewed the perpetrators, and those things didn’t happen to them. If anything, many of them enjoyed these accountability proceedings. Because, like we’re talking about, there’s these contradictions in them. Court proceedings constrain the victim’s behavior. They don’t allow the victim to do X, Y, and Z, or it’ll hurt their credibility. While simultaneously, forcing them to be in contact the perpetrator regularly. And that’s something perpetrators enjoy. **Anne:** Yeah, they like it. **Nicole:** Yes! **Anne:** Sorry, we need to focus on this. I created a strategy workshop. It’s called [the Living Free Workshop,](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) Click on that link and learn more. It helps women see why abusers like this enjoy it. And what these types of abusers get out of it. So that women can use strategy to protect themselves and find emotional safety in a support group for marriage problems. Because we don’t enjoy it. That’s what you discovered. I’m like, yes, they enjoy it. And it’s because they never lose. **Nicole:** Even if they lose, the losses are hollow. They expelled one student for intimate partner violence while I was on campus. ## THE DEAN OF STUDENTS FACILITATED A PERPETRATORS TRANSFER **Nicole:** So it is rare, I was on campus that year. But what that expulsion meant was because of this rush to protect the perpetrator. This rush to make sure nothing bad happened to him. The Dean of Students had already helped facilitate his transfer to another university by the time he was expelled. It was close enough, he didn’t even have to move apartments. And they had slowed down the proceedings for two years. Originally with the hope that he would graduate before they had to hold him accountable. But he didn’t graduate for a whole host of reasons. Instead, the victim had to take a leave of absence, for those two years. Because he was so violent and so dangerous that she couldn’t safely be on campus. And so they told her, you know, the same thing we’re talking about before. Until he’s been through this process, we can’t offer you any kind of assistance. So if you can’t handle being here, you’re the one who should leave. And that’s one of the big things that I hope people take from all these conversations. It is that every time we do something like this to protect a perpetrator, every time we say, “I’m going to be fair to both people, I’m going to invite both of you to this place, and anybody who can’t handle it, don’t come.” What you’re really saying is the perpetrator is going to be here and the victim won’t. Because you’re not giving them anything that’s possible to do. Victims can’t turn off their trauma and peacefully coexist. Even if they do manage to share space with the perpetrator, it always takes a toll, and that’s unfair. ## EVERYTHING IS BACKWARDS: VICTIM BLAMING AND FINDING A SUPPORT GROUP FOR MARRIAGE PROBLEMS OR VICTIMS **Nicole:** It’s not right. Everything is totally backwards. **Anne:** Yeah. Well, the other issue that people don’t recognize is that he is still going to be abusing her. It could be a basketball game, whatever. The way he acts, the way he’s lying about her, the way he’s like, “Oh, she’s so crazy.” That is abuse. And he’s still doing it right now. So you haven’t stopped the abuse. It’s not like this happened in the past. She still needs some sort of support group for marriage problems or victims of emotional abuse. **Nicole:** And I would argue that even if nothing happens, that still is a continuation of the abuse as well. Because I think of all these scenarios where the perpetrator and victim are forced to share space. Again, kids are a common scenario. And everybody watching wants to see this cartoon villain of a perpetrator that doesn’t exist. And so instead they say, “He seemed nice, he was friendly to you, you seem like you’re the one who’s overreacting.” And that’s part of the plan too. A big part of that abuse is showing they can follow social norms, and treat people appropriately. And ultimately, it still leads to often, in this case, other people blaming the victim, questioning their legitimacy. That’s a lot of what perpetrators do in these proceedings. They come in and they don’t scream and yell. They’re not physically violent in that setting. And so people think, “Oh, he must be fine.” **Anne:** It’s called grooming, and grooming is abusive. So that IS the abuse. And they don’t realize they’re abused too, because he’s lying. ## NO ONE IS HELPING VICTIMS TRANSFER TO A NEW SCHOOL **Nicole:** A good point. **Anne:** The same thing happens everyday with the courts with civil custody cases. that part where you said the university helped him transfer his stuff to the new school. No one is helping the victims do these things. No one’s helping wives in these scenarios. They have to find their own support group for marriage problems. **Nicole:** And that was one of the most glaring disparities of all. And there’s actually an academic concept that I think would be helpful to your listeners. It’s this idea of institutional betrayal. And institutional betrayal is defined as an institution’s actions or inactions that exacerbate trauma. So when they behave in a way that makes the traumatic experience more traumatic, and that’s one of the big things. How violent and traumatic an experience is for a victim is not set from the end of the violent event. It actually depends on everything that happens afterwards. So, you know, if you tell your friends, do they believe you? Do they take your side or your perpetrator’s side? Do you get control over what happens after the violence is over? Or is somebody reporting to the police against your will or putting you into these scenarios that you don’t want to be in against your will? Abuse is ultimately a violation of autonomy. And so every time an institution violates our autonomy again, that’s going to trigger those traumatic experiences. We find survivors experiencing institutional betrayal show the same traumatic symptoms as a sexual assault victim a second time in studies. It is an equal severity to that original act of violence. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## INSTITUTIONAL BETRAYAL IS OVERWHELMING **Nicole:** Which is why it’s important that our institutions get this right, and for our friends and families to get this right too. Because a lot of people find this overwhelming. And I think it is overwhelming to think, “Wow, I thought the worst was over, but I could actually encounter something just as bad when I seek help,” is really overwhelming. But on the other hand, if we do get it right, we actually have the capacity to make this violence less damaging to victims. And that’s the place where I come out on a hopeful side. Survivors who, when they seek help and get it, have fewer traumatic symptoms. The traumatic impact of that original event is lessened. So that’s got to be our goal here: to step out of these damaging patterns just because it’s the way things are, or it’s what we’re used to, and oh, it would take work and change to do something different. Those aren’t good reasons. We should do the right thing because the stakes are really high. And we could really help a lot of people. **Anne:** I talk with victims every day. When couples therapists don’t help them, when clergy don’t help them, when police don’t help them, when the civil court system doesn’t help them, and when a **support group for marriage problems** doesn’t help them, my eye twitches. **Nicole:** I wanna say one of the things about institutional betrayal and the reasons why I think it’s important that people know how institutions can harm victims is that institutional betrayal can’t happen to the same severity if we already have some distrust for the institution. ## SETTING REALISTIC EXPECTATIONS WHEN SEEKING A SUPPORT GROUP FOR MARRIAGE PROBLEMS OR VICTIMS **Nicole:** One of the key components is going to get help, and thinking you’re going to get it, and then not getting it. And so setting realistic expectations, not to lower the bar for these institutions, to know what can happen. **Anne:** That’s what the [Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) is for, anticipating. If you talk to clergy about this, this is likely what’s going to happen. Like know these things beforehand. The Living Free Workshop helps victims anticipate, because this has been driving me crazy for years. In my state, at the bottom of every article about domestic violence, every single one, there’s like a “Call the National Domestic Violence Hotline and then call our state domestic violence hotline.” And everyone thinks that’s the solution. They think reporting is the solution. They don’t realize that’s not the solution at all. In fact, one victim that I know, she recently had the department that oversees victim services contact her. And they were like, “Hey, we heard that you had a bad interaction with a police officer in this certain county.” We’re going to interview you. So she told them, ” Yeah, I’ve been working with this domestic violence shelter. I have a victim advocate.” She told him the whole story. She’s been working with a victim advocate at our local domestic violence shelter for over two years. They reviewed her case. And they got back to her, and guess what they said? They said, “Oh, your case is really, really bad. You need services. Have you contacted your local domestic violence shelter?” **Nicole:** Oh my. ## GO TO A CONFIDENTIAL COMMUNITY **Anne:** So it was like a full circle, you know. People in general think how we have to do is put this phone number on the bottom of a newspaper article and problem solved. And if she called that number and she’s still in this mess, it’s her fault because she didn’t use the services correctly. **Nicole:** So I think one of the questions I get a lot is, if a lot of these systems aren’t trustworthy, where can we go? And the response is to go to a confidential community like this one. That is different than a domestic violence service. You want one that’s confidential, because your group won’t call the police. The court can’t subpoena you. So if you have questions to try to make sense of all the options in your community, they can work through that with you without things snowballing out of your control. But that’s what I would say. Make sure you’re going somewhere confidential that will give you a lot of options, not just one option. Anywhere that’s pushing you back to one option is probably not the right place. I talk about these broader trends in how survivors lose their autonomy and become re-traumatized when they’re trying to find a good support group for marriage problems. What we’ve been talking about this whole time. Which is when a victim says, “I’ve experienced this, I’m dealing with these consequences, and I need help with these consequences.” They’re recast as punishing, and everything is focused on, “But that could be bad for the perpetrator.” That is one of the biggest red flags. Because you can’t just make that stuff go away. Like, trauma is trauma. It’s a physiological process. We can see evidence of it on the body. ## RECOGNIZING CONSEQUENCES ARE NOT UNFAIR TO THE PERPETRATOR **Nicole:** You can’t just say, “Oh, you’re right. I don’t want anything bad to happen to my perpetrator.” So it goes away. That’s one of the ones to think about. Conflation between addressing the consequences that are inevitable, that will happen due to the action of sexual violence, or coercion or harassment, or whatever it is you’ve experienced, and acting as if recognizing those consequences is inherently unfair to the perpetrator. **Anne:** I was trying to explain this to someone once, and I said, “Can you imagine if a man had a business partner and that business partner stole a bunch of money from the business, and the guy couldn’t hold him accountable in court? And then everyone around him was telling him, “You have to attend church with this guy.” **Nicole:** Right, it’s suddenly so clear. It’s suddenly so clear that it would be unfair. **Anne:** And people say to me, that’s crazy. This is completely different. And I’m like, “What I’m talking about is like 50 billion times worse.” **Nicole:** Yeah. **Anne:** Thinking about it in terms of a man being forced to interact with someone who hurt him, they can’t even talk about that because they’re like, “that would never happen.” Women need to find a support group for marriage problems that understands this. **Nicole:** I mean, gender is such a big part of it, right? It is. Yeah. On a Title IX case, you would call it complainant and respondents, when those roles are reversed, usually in a retaliatory complaint. Where a real act of violence happened, the victim tried to report it, and the perpetrator responded by filing a second complaint saying, “Actually, I’m the true victim.” ## RETALIATORY COMPLAINTS BY PERPETRATORS: HELP FROM A SUPPORT GROUP FOR MARRIAGE PROBLEMS OR VICTIMS **Nicole:** So again, a classic example of this is Johnny Depp versus Amber Heard, where he doesn’t argue that there was never any violence. He says she deserved it. Actually, she’s the abuser, and I think I’m the true victim. And the goal of these retaliatory complaints is really to muddle the narrative, to confuse any investigators and to try to intimidate the victim into dropping their original complaint. In those cases of retaliatory complaints, what I found is that the university didn’t care anymore about due process. When women were in the role of the accused, they faced a lot of consequences. I would actually argue punishment because they didn’t do anything. It can’t be consequences for their actions when all they did was report something someone else did to them. It really is a gender issue. There is a real sense that we should take the side of the man, no matter what he has done, because he is a leader, because he should have male privilege, or you know, whatever it might be. He’s the more important person, and so we should protect the more important person. And sometimes that comes out in really overtly misogynistic, obvious ways, and sometimes it’s a little bit more shielded in something more, called himpathy. So this concept of empathy comes from a philosopher named Kate Mann. And what it means is excessive empathy given to men at the expense of women. What this can look like in practice is somebody saying something like, “Well, you know, sexual abuse is horrible. It ruins the victim’s life. The best we can do is try to make sure it doesn’t ruin two lives instead of one.” ## EMPATHIZING WITH THE PERPETRATOR **Nicole:** It’s truly unbelievable if I didn’t have the direct quotes from the administrator saying it. But it’s treated as this righteous thing is this idea of I’m a good person if I can empathize with even the most sort of deplorable people in our society. And it’s not hard to empathize with men in these cases. Our culture trains us to do this. The difficult thing is to empathize with the victim. **Anne:** Sorry, I can’t even, I can’t, I can’t. No wonder people don’t love me at church because I don’t sympathize with abusive men I’m like, I don’t care about him. And people are like, so offended. **Nicole:** Yeah, people are offended. **Anne:** And I’m like, why are you so offended? He’s a rapist. Why do you care about him? She needs a support group for marriage problems or victims. **Nicole:** I think that’s the place we need to get to, especially in this moment in society where most people are empathizing with the perpetrator. So this framework I was thinking about where everybody’s saying, “Oh, you know, I’m going to empathize with the perpetrator because it’s a hard thing to do.” Something administrators would say is, “Everybody’s going to side with the victim, because we all know rape is wrong. And so she’s going to have everybody in her corner. He doesn’t have anybody in his corner. So I’m going to be the person to show up for him.” And so what we need at the bare minimum is a whole group of people who will show up for the survivor in that same way to recognize the real reality, which is the perpetrator has so many people in his corner. ## VICTIMS MAY LOSE FRIENDS, FAMILY AND HAVE TO SWITCH SCHOOLS **Nicole:** The victim is the person who’s getting pushed out of her entire social group. One of the things that’s so traumatic about sexual violence is a lot of people lose all their friends, a lot of their family. They might have to switch schools or change jobs, because everybody is focusing on being “fair” to the perpetrator. None of this is fair. If what we’re doing for the perpetrator means the victim has to leave, it’s not fair. When we have an entire society where none of these systems are good at holding perpetrators accountable, it’s hard for people to imagine what that looks like. When we know that we can’t trust a lot of these systems, we have to handle this as individuals and as communities. Because the trauma is going to leave a lifelong impact for the victim. It’s never going away. And so if we say, “Well it’s been five years, why isn’t she over it yet?” That’s just not how it works. And I do think it’s really reasonable to say, “If you perpetrated a sexual assault, The bare minimum of consequences is if you see the victim in the grocery store at your new job. You turn around and you walk out and you go to a different grocery store, you get a different job.” This is very, very reasonable to ask for. **Anne:** 100 percent,I appreciate this conversation. Nicole, I’m so grateful you’re doing this work. Thank you so much for spending the time to talk about finding a safe support group for marriage problems and victims today. **Nicole:** Thank you for having me on. This has been great. These are the kinds of conversations that people need. I’m so glad I got to be here today. **Anne:** Yeah, thank you. ## HALEY’S STORY OF REPORTING ON A CAMPUS **Anne:** So now a woman we’re gonna call Haley will actually share her story of reporting on a campus. Hers is specifically related to my faith, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and what she experienced at BYU. But I have heard stories like this from Jewish women, from Catholic women. We see these patterns everywhere. Including in a support group for marriage problems. Welcome Haley. **Haley:** Hi, thank you. **Anne:** Before we start, I received my associate degree from BYU Idaho, a million years ago. And when I went there, I loved the honor code. It helped me feel safe. For example, I felt so safe that my roommates weren’t allowed to have men in our apartment after 10:00 PM. Is that what it is? I don’t even remember. **Haley:** I think they bumped it up to midnight. I felt the same way as you. I chose to come to BYU because I wanted to be in a safer environment and I knew I was signing an honor code. **Anne:** I appreciate that, and I want to be clear: I don’t know exactly how the honor code operates today. This won’t be an anti–honor code discussion. Instead, we’re examining how institutions implement the honor code—and how that implementation harms victims of abuse in multiple ways. **Haley:** Like you mentioned, I had two run-ins with the honor code office. One my freshman year and one my senior year. And both times I was left feeling very alone, like I did something horrible. ## I FELT A RESPONSIBILITY TO SPEAK OUT **Haley:** I felt like that my freshman year, and kept my mouth shut. Because I was embarrassed. I felt totally ashamed alone, so I kept quiet. I felt like I was in a different place when they called me in again. To put me back on probation at the end of my Senior year. I felt like it was my responsibility to speak out against what was going on. I had to wait to speak out until I got my diploma. Initially, I started just because I wanted to see if there was anyone else out there who felt the same way I did. I knew I had a few close friends and a few close family who had been through the honor code office and were treated poorly. So I gathered all our stories together. Really, it was like a support system. Even if five people could see it and feel like they weren’t alone, that would have been good enough for me. I know that you’re doing the same thing, allowing people to share their stories is healing for everyone. There’s something about being anonymous. You feel safe. Being able to tell other people what happened to you, and having other people say, “I am so sorry. I had no idea. I’m here for you.” I think it is healing. **Anne:** Yeah, it is so healing. I’m so grateful that so many women are willing to share their stories on my podcast. And I’m grateful that you’re here sharing yours today. The first time a perpetrator you had a restraining order against, was the one that turned you into the honor code office. And the second time it was your abusive ex-boyfriend. ## EXPERIENCES WITH THE HONOR CODE OFFICE **Anne:** Talk about how that felt to have the honor code office used as a weapon by abusive men. **Haley:** I had moved 2,000 miles away and started school. The first time I got called in, I was told that I was called in by a man from my past who had really hurt me. It was hurtful to sit on my counselor’s couch and tell her this was years behind me. Tell her who this man is, how he made me feel, and how I was scared of him. And how I wanted to put everything that had happened 2,000 miles away in my past behind me. I sat on her couch crying and said, “Please take my side. Please have my back. Here’s how he’s affected my life for years now, and I really need you to have my back. Especially now that I’m sitting here telling you who it was that reported me, I really need your protection.” And she responded and said, “It didn’t matter how I got caught. What mattered was that the Holy Spirit wanted me to get caught.” As a freshman, 18 years old, I was already terrified to be in there. Sitting across from the stranger I didn’t know, asking for help. And she told me it didn’t matter. That just felt sick. It was pretty discouraging. No offers for a victim support. And then the second time with the ex-boyfriend, it was frustrating because I told her, “Look, I have not talked to this kid in over a year. I’m so sorry for what happened. I’ve already dealt with it with my Bishop. I don’t understand why he can come in and jeopardize my future, my education and my diploma.” ## BLAME FOR THE PROBLEM: PARALLELS WITH HELP FOR FINDING A SUPPORT GROUP FOR MARRIAGE PROBLEMS **Haley:** She took his side and told me, “Well, he’s the one that came in, and he came in on his own goodwill, and you didn’t.” It was frustrating too, because he was Elder’s Quorum president at the time. **Anne:** For our listeners, that is a calling within the church that puts them in charge of the men’s organization. **Haley:** And she brought that up and wanted to remind me of his position in the church. And she told me that the spirit wasn’t in my home. And so it was harder for both parties to keep the commandments. So an ex-boyfriend turned me in. And having his calling thrown in my face was pretty hurtful. **Anne:** Wait, so she blamed you. Because apparently the Spirit’s not in your home. I’m being sarcastic here. The reason he acted poorly is all your fault. **Haley:** Right. I mean, she’s accusing me, asking if I am going to church, what my calling is, and what my relationship is with God. But she wanted to remind me of his position in church, and then put me in my place. And just for all those reasons, it was so hurtful. **Anne:** That is awful. I’m so sorry. I bet you felt so validated when people started sharing their stories, and women feel that with a good support group for marriage problems as well. Because you ended up reading thousands of other victim stories about the honor code office. What were some themes that you noticed? ## THEMES IN DEALING WITH THE HONOR CODE OFFICE **Haley:** I noticed a lot of people who don’t even want to talk to anyone about what happened, which is scary. Another theme is that when they go into that office, they feel like it is their fault. I have had so many people say, my counselor told me that this is because I did this. This is because I wore this. I said this. **Anne:** If he’s using sexual coercion, getting him out of your apartment by 10:00 PM would have been almost impossible. They might say, “It’s your fault you were raped because you let him stay longer than 10:00 PM.” I mean, there are so many elements with sexual coercion. People really don’t understand. **Haley:** They did try to separate the Title IX office and the Honor Code office. People are still unfortunately not reporting. Because they’re still afraid that when they go in there, somehow to get looped into the honor code office. And in a lot of cases, it still has. BYU says their policy has changed, but unfortunately, the policy is not what’s practiced. **Anne:** We see that with bishops too. The policy is: We have no tolerance for abuse in the church. And yet victims say, “My husband is using pornography. He is lying to me. He’s having sex with other women.” They need an understanding of what safety looks like in a support group for marriage problems. In The Proclamation to the Family, people who engage in infidelity and abuse will be held accountable. And instead, a bishop might say, what are you doing wrong? How could you help the situation? Have you heard any stories where the victim had a good experience going to the honor code office? ## ADVICE FOR VICTIMS **Haley:** I do have stories where women went in and said, “Here’s who it is, here’s what he’s done.” And BYU has expelled them. Someone that I’m very close to has a story very similar to this. Even though they expelled the man, she never heard from the honor code office again. And that’s another issue too. If you are a woman and finally do have the courage to go tell BYU what’s going on, and let’s say best case scenario, they do kick this student out of school. I can’t speak for the whole school in general, but a lot of these students are still saying they’re not there for me. For the most part. They just don’t feel like the university in general has their back with this. **Anne:** So from your own experience and from reading all these stories that you’ve received, what would you want current students who are sexual assault victims to hear? **Haley:** I would first want them to know that they are not alone. I don’t know how comforting that can be for everyone, but I know at least for the people I’ve talked with, just hearing that this isn’t just happening to them. And there are other women out there who are feeling this way too. And people that you can turn to and trust and share your story with is really important. Like what happens with a good support group for marriage problems. ## OVERWHELMING AND HEARTWARMING TO CONNECT WITH OTHERS IN A SUPPORT GROUP FOR MARRIAGE PROBLEMS OR VICTIMS **Haley:** Also, we do not want these stories to discourage students from turning in these kinds of cases. BYU does have a victim advocate that does a good job, from what I’ve been told at protecting students. I just want every sexual assault victim to know that it is not your fault, and that every time they speak up for what has happened to them, they’re speaking up for all the women behind them. It’s been overwhelming and so heartwarming to see even other female students who will comment and DM me. Like, if this is your story, message me. I will take you out to lunch. I want to talk to you. I’m here for you. If you ever need anyone, send me a message to this Instagram. I just want them to know that there are people out there who care so much, love them, and want them to be on campus.We love the church and the school. We don’t want to leave. Students know what they signed. So we’re not here to fight the standards on campus. We are really just looking for protection for our students within the honor code office. Something has to change. **Anne:** I’m so grateful for you sharing your story and grateful for anyone willing to have an ongoing layered conversation about these topics and finding a safe support group for marriage problems.ƒ It’s not like we just talk about this issue once and then it goes away, right? It has to be an ongoing layered conversation in order to make meaningful change. **Haley:** Right. I appreciate it. Thank you so much. It was so good to talk with you. I would love to meet you one day. I really enjoyed our conversations. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [3 Hidden Ways Narcissists Groom Victims in Marriage](https://www.btr.org/narcissists-groom-victims/) **Published:** March 3, 2026 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Narcissistic abusers will do whatever they can develop and maintain a power-over dynamic. Learn 3 ways that narcissistic abusers groom victims. **Content:** Have you noticed that your husband now criticizes the very traits he once loved? Narcissists groom victims by presenting themselves as safe, loving, and trustworthy at first, to gain trust and lower a woman’s defenses before causing harm. When women understand three common ways narcissists groom victims, they can begin to see what’s really happening. Grooming often works quietly. Emotional abusers use a cycle of praise, pity, and confusion to keep women questioning themselves instead of questioning his behavior. This is why grooming feels good at first, because the intent stays hidden until the damage is already underway. To know if it’s grooming, you’ll also need to know if he’s using any one of these 19 different emotional abuse tactics. Take our [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/) to find out. ![How Grooming is Narcissistic Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/grooming-is-narcissistic-abuse.webp "Grooming is Narcissistic Abuse")## 1. NARCISSISTS GROOM VICTIMS WITH COMPLIMENTS HE’LL LATER USE TO ATTACK YOU Narcissists groom victims with compliments that feel personal and sincere. Early on, they pay close attention to what matters to you, what you feel good about, and what you’re insecure about. Later, they use those same things to criticize, confuse, or control you. This is why many women don’t see red flags before a relationship or marriage begins. At first, it feels like he truly sees you and appreciates who you are. Over time, you realize that what felt like love and admiration was actually preparation. ## 2. NARCISSISTS GROOM WITH DARVO DARVO means Deny, Attack, and then Reverse the Victim and Offender roll. This is when someone who is truly hurting you claims that you are hurting them. ![Understanding Narcissistic Grooming Tactics](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/narcissists-grooming-tactics.webp "Narcissists Grooming Tactics")## 3. NARCISSISTS GROOM VICTIMS WITH SOB STORIES Playing the victim is a common tactic narcissists groom victims with. The truth is that many, many people have had traumatic childhoods and it’s not a reason to abuse anyone. In fact, many people with traumatic childhoods are the healthiest people you’ll ever meet. **Abuse is a choice.** When a narcissist says he’s lying (or any other abusive behavior) *because* of his traumatic childhood, he’s just trying to groom you into thinking he has a good reason or excuse. He’s also trying to make you feel sorry for him. He’s NOT choosing to be a healthy person. If he was, he wouldn’t have done it in the first place. To hear Chelsea’s entire story, read on or listen to the full podcast episode above. ## TRANSCRIPT: 3 WAYS NARCISSISTS GROOM VICTIMS **Anne:** Today, I’m joined by a member of our community. We’re going to call her Chelsea. Chelsea shares how her husband was grooming her in ways she couldn’t see at the time, and how his true character revealed itself gradually. It wasn’t obvious cruelty at first. He was charming, praised her, and even showed empathy. As Chelsea shared her story, I noticed three familiar ways narcissists groom victims in the things her husband did repeatedly to confuse her. I want to briefly name these so you can listen for them as the conversation unfolds. First, early compliments that later became weapons. Traits he admired at the beginning were eventually used to criticize. Second, DARVO—deny, attack, and reverse victim and offender. When confronted about harm, he claimed he was the one being hurt. And third, sob stories designed to pull empathy, which later became excuses for harmful behavior. So listen for these as Chelsea shares her story. Welcome, Chelsea. **Chelsea:** Hi. I’m so glad to be here. Betrayal Trauma Recovery has helped me so much. **Anne:** When you first met your husband, or maybe when you first got married did you recognize his behaviors as abuse? **Chelsea:** No, I definitely didn’t. I guess everything’s hindsight 20/20, but at the time I was a single mom of two kids myself, so I don’t know if it was just insecurities. It happened slowly, and it circled around insecurities I had so I didn’t really notice it at first. **Anne:** When did you start recognizing like something’s not quite right? ## 1. NARCISSISTS GROOM BY GIVING COMPLIMENTS THEY WILL LATER ATTACK YOU WITH **Chelsea:** I would say it was like, a few months into dating. I guess the biggest thing for me was all the things he originally complimented me about or liked about me, he made comments about that in a derogatory kind of way. So, I guess that’s why they recognize it as abuse. I remember being emotionally distressed but not really understanding why. **Anne:** So, he kind of changed his tune? So, I’m just using this as an example. Maybe he said you’re so beautiful, I’m so attracted to you, and then later maybe he was like you’re not attractive to me. **Chelsea:** Yeah, a couple of examples early on where I was single and I have a really good co-parenting relationship with my ex-husband. I had the perfect situation for me, I had my kids during the week and on the weekends. I was 25 years old back then; this was five years ago, and I kind had the best of both worlds. I’m a very social butterfly, life of the party kind of person and I love to wear red lipstick. That’s just a small example because he did end up using that against me a lot. It was like one of those weird off to the side things, but stuff like that. ![How Narcissists Are Grooming Victims](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/why-narcissists-are-grooming-victims.webp "Why Narcissists Are Grooming Victims")He complimented me that I am so fun, and he likes how I do my makeup and stuff like that. And then even like how I am a good mom. Then fast forward a few months, it all slowly started going downhill. He started saying things like you have children at home, why are you acting like this? And why do you wear makeup like that? That’s really how the very beginning of it started. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## RECOGNIZING THE ABUSE **Anne:** This is the first way narcissists groom victims, by giving us compliments. And we’re so grateful to have someone see us. Notice us appreciate us. Then later they use those same things that they once complemented us about against us. So later they weaponize what they learn about us, and then they use the thing that they complimented us about against us later. These [narcissist husbands don’t want us to leave.](/best-way-to-leave-a-narcissist-husband/ "narcissist husbands don't want us to leave.") Which is such a betrayal. So many victims don’t see any red flags before they get into a relationship or marriage, because the grooming is so specific to us. They’re very good at manipulating us to feel like they truly see and appreciate us in the beginning. Then they purposefully compliment us, then later weaponize it. So at the time, were you thinking, okay, once we’re married, then he’ll go back to realizing how great I am. ![How Narcissists Groom Victims](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/narcissists-groom-victims-1.webp "Narcissists Groom Victims")**Chelsea:** Yes and no. I got getting pregnant about a little less than a year of dating, and that was a whole fiasco. Right before I getting pregnant, I tried to cut it off. It took me years to realize it was abuse. So that definitely never really came into my mind, but it was so emotionally tumultuous. I don’t know if that is a good word to use. I was like I can’t do this anymore. The way he would degrade me or like the way fights would go. I was like, I don’t want to do this anymore. And then that cycle of abuse was already in play. That wasn’t really any different than after we were married, but I tried to break up with him. ## NARCISSISTS GROOM VICTIMS OFF & ON TO KEEP THEM HOOKED I actually moved away, a couple hours away, for a job. This will help me cut it off because it’s really hard to cut things off with an abuser. To me that was like my way; you know, emotionally I was having a hard time cutting it off because he would always come back around. I thought if we’re physically not in the same place this should be good. Well, he came to visit me on the weekends. It would always be this big whole thing. Narcissists groom victims using the cycle of abuse, and that definitely was happening still. Then I ended up finding out I was pregnant. ![A Little Know Red Flag that Reveals a Narcissist](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/gvxpK9yloco/maxresdefault.jpg) In hindsight, I tell the story sometimes now; I have multiple kids and this instance was like the only time I remember just like falling and sobbing on the floor. At the time, I just had started this new job, I was trying to start this new life. I think it was more of that subconscious knowing that what was really happening underneath all of it was the abuse I was going through. How that was just going to make it so much worse, and it did. **Anne:** So, you were married because you were pregnant, essentially? **Chelsea:** Basically, yeah. Like he ended up begging for me back and like wanting to make it work and of course, add a pregnancy in there and you’re already vulnerable. Like in these cycles, at least that’s how it was for me, these cycles come around and add a pregnancy in there and it’s like, I really want this to work now. ## HORROR HONEYMOON WITH AN ABUSER I already have two other kids. I don’t want to have another kid and be a single mom. At that point, I still really wanted to be with him, but I was like fighting that war with myself. I just wanted to believe him when he said he wanted to make it work. So yeah, we ended up getting married, and even our wedding night was just horrible. **Anne:** A lot of people have horror honeymoon stories or wedding night stories. Yeah, that’s awful. So, you’re married and you’re pregnant. So many victims of emotional and psychological abuse, try to resist the abuse. By trying to stop it through common marriage advice, like loving serving, forgiving. Like being more understanding, thinking that if they act differently, it will protect them from the abuse. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) It’s a really common form of resistance to abuse. What was your experience with this type of resistance to the abuse? **Chelsea:** So, we end up getting married after the baby was born, he was a few months old at the time, because all this whole drama played out for a while before I ended up moving back and everything. But I didn’t notice, I moved back and that’s when I quit my job and like pretty much left my career. I had a corporate career at that point, to be with him and be a stay-at-home mom. That’s like really what I thought I wanted at the time. **Anne:** Yes, that is common, narcissists groom victims by making them dependent on them. Really quick, what’s his job? **Chelsea:** He’s in the military. **Anne:** Okay, so he’s got a stable, respectable job. ## NARCISSISTS GROOM BY MAKING THEM FULLY DEPENDENT ON HIM **Chelsea:** Yes, and that was used against me all the time. So then things really turned once I was fully dependent on him. That’s when things got even worse. At that point, we did some counseling and things like that, just like typical stuff. It’s crazy looking back on it now because, I don’t know what I was thinking. I think I really was just going through the motions. I don’t know any other way to describe it. **Anne:** What did he seem like to the counselors? Did he seem like a really upstanding good guy to the counselors? **Chelsea:** Yeah, and even through the years, like he will admit that he has “problems,” it would always be like yes, I have problems but it’s not me. As ironic as that is, you know what I mean? **Anne:** If you just love me for who I am and help me out, but they’re your fault, because you’re not understanding and because you’re not patient and because you’re not forgiving or something. ## NARCISSISTS GROOM BY BLAME SHIFTING **Chelsea:** Or he would always blame my family because he came from like a very well-off family, and I didn’t. So, he always tried to make it seem like you know, I have a lot of trauma from my childhood. Which I feel like that plays into it, at least for me personally, and ending up in a situation like this, to begin with. He would use that against me. Like well, you’re the one who has mental health issues. You’re the one who has trauma. Like it’s clearly not me, the only issues I have is, you know, the cheating or the prostitutes or whatever the case may be. Like, you are the one who is basically “crazy.” That was just really hard because I think in a way, I believed it. **Anne:** Yes, narcissists groom victims by blame shifting. So, when did you recognize that this was abuse? **Chelsea:** Oh, gosh, you know, not until probably the last six months to a year before I ended up leaving, which was earlier this year. I didn’t realize it was actual abuse. This is something he would say too, I was abusive. I’m not an abuser. **Anne:** I play tennis, but I’m not a tennis player. ## THE “TOXIC” LIE THAT NARCISSISTS USE TO GROOM VICTIMS (& THERAPISTS) **Chelsea:** Yeah, then he would even be like and, a lot of things he would say to like multiple marriage counselors we went to over the years were like, well, I used to be the abusive one but now we’re equal. Now we’re just toxic because we’re equal. Like that really came into play the last couple of years before I ended up leaving. **Anne:** Because an abuser would never admit that he’s abusive. **Chelsea:** Yeah, I think that’s part of it. **Anne:** Then they believed him, right. You know what, this is a catch-22 because they admit they’re abusive, and suddenly they’re like a saint. Wow, this is a man who can really be honest and stuff. In that way, you’re thrown under the bus because it’s like he’s changed what’s wrong with you? And then if they won’t admit it, and they just present as this really great guy, then they also are like, he’s a great guy. Like it’s a lose-lose. Either way, the woman isn’t believed. It’s a toxic lie narcissists groom victims with. ## WHEN THERAPISTS DON’T CALL OUT ABUSE **Chelsea:** Yeah, and I will tell you something that happened when I was pregnant before we got married, and I was going to counseling or like therapy. I wish sometimes that they would call it for what it is. My therapist made it known that she did not like him, like as much as she could in a professional way, you know. In hindsight, I’m thinking why didn’t she just tell me that was abuse? Instead of telling me, that’s not okay. You know, she was very adamant about that, I could see the conviction in what she said. But now in hindsight, why didn’t you just tell me I was being abused? At [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/group/ "Betrayal Trauma Recovery"), there’s a lot of validation in group whenever I would have a situation the BTR coaches would tell me “this is what’s happening.” That was very validating for me. **Anne:** Yeah. That’s what we do here at BTR. Validate. How did you find BTR? **Chelsea:** The podcast. **Anne:** So you start listening to [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast](https://www.btr.org/podcast/ "The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast"). And then did you start attending [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions?](https://www.btr.org/group/ "The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast") **Chelsea:** I binge listened the podcast and I was like, Oh, this is my life. I knew I needed something to help me. So then I went to BTR Group. I tell everyone about BTR **Anne:** You mentioned, it was really validating to attend Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions because the coaches were saying. This is abuse and you found that to be really validating and helpful. Why do you think having a group of women who really understand what you’re going through is so helpful for healing? ## DARVO IS A WAY NARCISSISTS GROOM VICTIMS **Chelsea:** I remember, I think my first session, I don’t even remember the incident that was happening, but I told one of the coaches. What was happening and they were like, that’s DARVO. And I’m like, I don’t even know what that is. And then when she told me, I was like, oh my gosh, like my mind was like blown because I was like, this happens to me constantly. How did I never know there was a term for this? That gave me strength because they would label things . **Anne:** So this is the second way that narcissist groom, their victims. To deny that they’re abusers then to attack their victim. And then to claim that they are the victim and there’s an acronym for this and it is DARVO. So DARVO stands for DENY, ACCUSE (Or ATTACK), and then REVERSE the VICTIM and OFFENDER ROLES for example. Prominent people who are accused of rape, Bill Cosby is a good example. Someone accuses him of rape. He denies that it happens. Then he attacks the victim and says, no, no, no, she’s just trying to get money. She’s just trying to get attention. I’m the victim here because she’s trying to ruin my life. So the victim offender role gets reversed. So again, deny, attack, and then reverse the victim and offender role. This is the second grooming tactic of a narcissist. that we’re going to talk about today. ## BTR GROUP SESSIONS CAN HELP YOU PROCESS TRAUMA & ABUSE **Chelsea:** Yeah, now that I talk to more people about this openly, I say the same thing. I think that’s what it got to. It was like I could tell him he was abusive all day long, you know, that went on for 6-12 months after I put a label on it, and that didn’t really help because he would just deflect like he did everything else before I put a label on it. I do feel like there’s a lot of validation, when I went to [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group](https://www.btr.org/group/ "Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group"), whenever I would have a situation in group, and they would tell me what it was, that was really validating for me. This is what’s happening, and it’s like okay. Because they make us question our reality so much. **Anne:** I just want women to know that like, you don’t need someone else to tell you, although yes, it’s helpful, that’s what we do here at BTR. It’s abuse, it’s abuse, it’s abuse all day long. Because I’m like, I just wish women had that inside of themselves, but I’m so grateful that we’re here to help validate. **Chelsea:** I think that goes hand-in-hand with the narcissist thing. Like people always want to know is he a narcissist? And I’m like well, it doesn’t really matter. The label doesn’t matter because how is he treating you? ## I GET TO DECIDE IF I WANT TO BE IN THIS SITUATION Then I kept going through the process of moving out and everything, and something aside from the support and everything. Hearing everyone’s stories was really impactful for me, because I realized I didn’t know what the goal was. I knew it was supportive, but I didn’t know like how it would be. Once I saw that they aren’t really persuading you to do one thing or another, and it’s more about making your own decisions and deciding for yourself what you want to do or what’s happening. Hearing other people’s stories and realizing wow, I get to decide if I want to still be in this situation 5, 10, 20 years from now or not, you know. That was very enlightening for me, hearing other people how long they had to go through it. Like, that was a real wake-up call for me. **Anne:** I think that’s one reason why women are afraid to join [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group](https://www.btr.org/group/) they’re afraid that if they find out it’s abuse, or if they acknowledge it’s abuse, that they’ll have to get [divorced from this narcissist. ](https://www.btr.org/divorcing-a-narcissist/ "divorced from this narcissist. ")For example, and they’re just not quite ready to do that yet. Or some other version of that where they feel like they’ll go down a road they don’t really want to go down. A lot of women worry about that. What would you say to a woman who’s concerned about that? ## FIND VALIDATION IN THE BTR GROUP SESSIONS **Chelsea:** From my experience, I mean, I can’t say because like I had already planned on leaving when I did join, but from the stories I saw, I remember just really seeing how people could find even that little bit of safety. Like, no they weren’t ready to leave or maybe they don’t want to leave at all and knowing they could have support. Their feelings are valid, what they’re going through is valid, and even just finding the strength to be able to stand up for themselves or self-care. I always remember them asking what our self-care was for the day, and I remember being like I don’t know, I don’t ever do self-care, you know. It’s so important even when you’re in that situation, you’re so like spun out trying to survive and like keep your head above water. It’s like a breath of fresh air to be in a group where you’re understood and validated. Regardless of if you are planning to leave or not. **Anne:** We wanted to make sure it was safe for everyone, no matter where they are in their process and no matter what their goals are at BTR. Our goal is safety. We just want to help women feel validated and make their way to safety in whatever way that it looks like for them. So that’s our goal here. [The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/ "The Living Free Workshop") is to help women gain safety. ## NARCISSISTS GROOM VICTIMS WITH GASLIGHTING From your perspective, why do you think it takes so long to understand that you’re being abused? Maybe someone is pointing it out to you. Why do you think it takes maybe someone saying hey, that’s abuse for victims to understand that they’re being abused? **Chelsea:** For me personally, I think it’s the art of gaslighting or the manipulation involved where for so long before anyone has even become aware. Maybe you nobody knows this is what you’re going through. Narcissist [husbands use gaslighting](https://www.btr.org/husband-gaslighting/) to groom victims. The abuser told you that it’s you. I wish I could tell more people because anyone I talked to their first thing has always been go to marriage counseling and I’m like marriage counseling was so detrimental for me. It’s was like we go into session talking about the infidelity or like, the abuse, and everything, and somehow, we ended up talking about forgiveness and the five love languages. **Anne:** I hate The Five Love Languages. That’s so funny that you say that. Anytime I hear somebody talking about his love language is this or my love language. I am like, ugh, throw that book in the garbage. **Chelsea:** That can end up being used. Basically, just that you’re not giving me enough of this, so I treat you this way. ## WHEN NARCISSISTS GROOM THERAPISTS **Anne:** Yeah, this is my love language, and I deserve it. Right? Or I’m entitled to this because it’s my love language. Of course, they’re always going to say their love language is sex. **Chelsea:** Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I’m just like, how did we start these sessions with this, and five weeks, six, eight weeks later we’re talking about how I need to forgive, or I need to put more positive bids into our marriage or just any of these marriage counseling things. I’m like this never; none of this got to the root of the problem. **Anne:** It’s nonsense when it comes to abuse, but the weird thing is, marriage counselors in general don’t assess abuse first. They just literally go right into positive communication or let’s do a date night every week or you know, whatever. If it really was an abuse situation, which all of these are, there’s no way you’d be telling somebody to go on a date with their abuser every week or even do the other things they say. It’s literally crazy. ## NARCISSISTS GROOM VICTIMS WITH THE UNWITTING HELP OF THERAPISTS & COUNSELORS **Chelsea:** To me, it’s the opposite of safety. You’re asking me to be vulnerable and to forgive someone who has not shown me that they’re a safe person. **Anne:** Or trust someone who’s completely untrustworthy. **Chelsea:** Yeah. They end up using that against you because, they’re the marriage counselor so you need to work on this. It’s like they bring up this list of things the marriage counselor told you to do and they’re not even working on whatever they told them to do. **Anne:** Well, it’s hard to tell them what to do, because it’s like, don’t cheat. And they’re like, well, I haven’t cheated since I did last time, and I’m not going to do it again. So, what else can you say. That’s it. **Chelsea:** Have more positive communication or whatever. I think that’s what makes it go on for so long. It feels almost like a video game or something. Like, you have to go through all these levels before you’re like okay, I’m not dealing with this anymore. That’s how it feels to me. He made it seem like that too. Like, when they’re in the bargaining phase or whatever, they just start begging you to try one more time or try something different. So, it’s like, how many levels do I need to go through before this just isn’t going to work? ## NARCISSISTS GROOM VICTIMS AS PART OF THE CYCLE OF ABUSE **Anne:** That’s part of grooming. It gives you hope that change might be possible, right? Or they’re willing to work on it. It’s essentially just a grooming tool to hook you . Grooming is what is confusing all women about the abuse. There are these times where they “genuinely” want to work on it they’ll go to therapy, or they seem to understand. They have these moments of what Looks like true introspection where they apologize and “I know how much I’ve hurt you and I don’t want to break our family up and, this is the most important thing to me in the world” all that is is grooming and grooming is abuse. I think people are seeing like, okay, it was good. I think people are seeing like okay, it was good, and then it was bad. We were happy and he was nice, and then it was awful. They’re not recognizing that that nice part, that good part, that part that he’s “understanding it” or he’s cherishing you is abuse too. **Chelsea:** This is my case, but I also think it’s a lot of people’s. The abuser doesn’t think they’re doing that or see that they’re doing that. So, it’s like unintentional. It’s almost like I can’t call that abuse because he’s not doing it intentionally. **Anne:** So, this is confusing, right? Because you’re like, this is good. They were nice, they were kind, so are they good? ## NARCISSISTS GROOM IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN CONTROL **Anne:** An abuser’s goal is never real peace. An abuser wants control. He wants something from you. That’s the difference. In those moments when he seems genuinely caring—when he sounds interested, repentant, or emotionally present, it can feel convincing. But there are strings attached. There is always a goal. He becomes especially kind, attentive, and affirming when he wants something—sex, compliance, admiration, forgiveness, or access. That goal-oriented kindness is what makes it grooming. Narcissists groom victims by using affection as a tool, not as a reflection of who they truly are. Once he gets what he wants, the tone shifts. Devaluing follows. Sometimes discarding follows. That’s because the connection was never about mutual care, it was about extraction. Genuine love doesn’t work that way. When someone truly cherishes you, their kindness doesn’t depend on getting something from you. They don’t turn affection on and off based on access or advantage. They think you’re amazing whether or not they benefit. There’s no hidden agenda, just appreciation. That absence of strings is the difference between grooming and real love. ## NARCISSISTS GROOM VICTIMS TO PROTECT THEMSELVES & EXPLOIT **Anne:** When you say that they don’t intend to hurt me or they don’t intend to be abusive, right? So, a lot of people will be like well, they don’t know they’re abusing me, so how can it be abuse? That’s not what defines abuse. What defines abuse is that it’s harmful to someone else. So, they don’t have to know what they’re doing in order for it to be harmful to you. The abuse is the harm. It’s not necessarily their intent. But if their intent is completely selfish and goal-oriented then it’s exploitative, and it’s abusive. For example, their intent might be I just don’t want her to know the truth because if she found out the truth, she would kick me out of our apartment. So, the intent is not to get kicked out of the apartment. They’re not thinking, I’m going to abuse her, I’m going to lie. The only thing they’re thinking is, I don’t want to get kicked out of the apartment. So, their intent is to deceive so that they can maintain their entitlements so that they can exploit you and so that they can maintain their status. None of that is ever thinking oh, I’m going to abuse her on purpose. Narcissists groom victims to protect themselves and exploit. **Chelsea:** That was so good because that’s something in so many conversations I’ve had. What happens when, you said like getting kicked out of the apartment. When that conversation is more like I don’t want to lose you? Because I think that one’s really hard because then there’s the implied value as their spouse or partner or whatever. ## A NARCISSIST DOES NOT SEE HIS VICTIM AS A PERSON **Anne:** In moments like that, when he says, *“I don’t want to lose you,”* it’s important to understand what that really means. An abuser doesn’t see his victim as a whole person. He sees a collection of things he wants—sex, domestic labor, financial stability, access to children, or social standing. Narcissists groom victims by making them believe this is love and care. So, when they say I don’t want to lose you, what they’re saying is I don’t want to lose it. I don’t want to lose someone who’s going to vacuum the floor, or lose any money and have to pay you alimony or child support or anything. I don’t want to lose the privilege of looking like a great guy at church and showing up on Sunday with my wife and kids, my reputation. My guess is if you really pressed this and said what is it about me specifically that you don’t want to lose? I don’t really think they would be able to answer it. I don’t recommend people asking questions like that because they could come up with an amazing answer and all you’re doing at that moment is handing your abuser a shovel to further groom you with. The abuser is in a trench, they’ve dug it through their own viewpoint, and they’re really entrenched in there. We never want to give them a shovel to dig themselves any deeper into that trench. Questions like that are going to just be handing them a shovel. They’re either going to groom you more or they’re going to abuse you in some way, devalue you in some way. Either way, it’s abuse to you and it’s an unsafe situation. ## IT’S NOT YOUR FAULT You would know if they valued you already, you would feel it. If they really genuinely valued you, and it would be consistent over time. You would not have abuse and then grooming and then abuse and then grooming. You wouldn’t feel like you were married to Jekyll and Hyde. **Chelsea:** Yeah, that’s what was hard for me for so long. I thought this vulnerable victim-part of himself that he would show me with him, and then start getting the whole picture and that all was part of him. The big part for me, I know everyone’s different. I stayed so long because I in a way I guess I was codependent and that I felt bad that he suffered so much, that he had these issues. And I’m sure there was a lot of grooming as well. **Anne:** Yeah. Well, think about like a girlfriend who’s been through really hard times who is like a good friend of yours. Like she’s kind, she’s supportive, she validates you. She does not use her difficult story or her difficult upbringing as a weapon to abuse you or to excuse her mistreatment of you. She doesn’t use it to try and get people to feel sorry for her. Her response to her trauma was post-traumatic growth where she was like, you know what I’m going to go to college, and she’s just an incredible, amazing person. There are so many people who have had very difficult situations in the past, they’ve had trauma in their childhood, and they don’t abuse other people. They make really good choices. They think that is not the kind of life I want. ## NARCISSISTS GROOM VICTIMS WITH SOB STORIES So let’s stop right here to point out this third way to recognize how a narcissist groom. Number three is that they try to get people to feel sorry for them. They want to say, “ell, I was abused as a kid and my life was really hard. I know someone who went through that, and they don’t abuse their wife. None of that is a reason. Think about yourself. You went through a very difficult situation, and maybe your upbringing was bad, I’m just saying the general you, and do you lie and manipulate people? We just need to remember that all these sob stories, told in this context, narcissists groom victims with sob stories. That’s their only purpose. The purpose is to make people feel sorry for them so they can get away with bad behavior. **Chelsea:** Yeah, for sure, and he groomed me very early on, but I told you how it all started. Well, I would say a month or two even before that was when the grooming began. In hindsight, where he started opening up about his childhood and stuff. Or things he had done in the past, like with his ex-wife that brought him so much shame. All this other stuff he said and cried and everything. And now, I’m like a major red flag, major red flag, but in hindsight that was clearly when the grooming began. ## IT’S A RED FLAG WHEN THEY START THE RELATIONSHIP WITH A SOB STORY **Anne:** Exactly. Narcissists groom victims by getting people to feel bad for them. So that’s another thing for all the listeners, is that if you start the relationship out with them trying to get you to feel bad for them, then you can just stand up and get an Uber and go home. You don’t want to start there. If you’re early in your healing and you lead with how victimized you’ve been when you show up on a date, that can work against you. I’m not talking about getting validation at BTR or with close girlfriends, those spaces matter. I’m talking specifically about how you present yourself to someone you’re interested in dating. That’s dangerous because then they’ll be like, oh, I can just tell them I’ll never do that to you, and I’ll never leave you and that is like giving someone a shovel. They groom victims by telling them they would never do that. I would say abstain from dating while you’re feeling that vulnerable until you can get strong enough that you would never lead with that in a relationship. **Chelsea:** We don’t realize that it’s grooming even from day one. ## I AM WHOLE. I AM WORKING MY WAY TO HEALING **Anne:** A great way to start a date would be like my life is great. I love it. Even if it’s not. Then people are like well, you know you’re not vulnerable or whatever. But I’m just saying get yourself to your place where you feel like I am whole, I am working my way to healing, I’m doing really well. That is a good place to start dating from, I think. Rather than I’m trying to date to get someone to help me or I need something. I think that’s just too vulnerable of a place for us especially when we’re in trauma. That it just sets us up for more victimization. **Chelsea:** Yeah, that’s so good. I’ve done a lot of deep dives on my own story, you know, over time, and I still have revelations like all the time about things I’ve been through. **Anne:** Even now, like seven years later, I’m still getting insights about like, why did I think that, or this is what was really happening. There are insights that we have over time where we’re like oh, that conversation wasn’t even about that. ## NARCISSISTS GROOM WITH MISDIRECTION One thing I’ve come to recognize is that my ex would pick fights with me late at night, then leave the house claiming he needed to cool down. At the time, I believed that explanation. Now I’m certain that wasn’t why he left. He left because he had something else he wanted to do. I don’t know exactly what that was, maybe acting out sexually, maybe something else entirely, but I do know this: he needed an excuse to leave. So he created one. He picked a fight so he could justify walking out. In the moment, it felt real. It felt like an actual conflict. Looking back, I can see there was nothing to fight about. He manufactured the conflict to make his exit look reasonable. That’s one way narcissists groom victims through misdirection. They create a false reality so you focus on the argument instead of questioning why it’s happening at all. Many women experience this. They think, *He’s not attracted to me,* or *I upset him and he stormed out.* They don’t realize he may have decided he wanted to leave and simply needed a trigger. Maybe he criticized her cooking, knowing she’d react, so he could say, *See? I need to go.* **Chelsea:** Yeah, I felt that it definitely happened to me a few times. I don’t know what he was doing, but that’s a very good point. ## BTR GROUP SESSIONS CAN HELP YOU **Anne:** Do you have anything you’d want to share with women who might be hesitant to join Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions—or who are listening for the first time and wondering, *Is this really for me?* Maybe they’re thinking this sounds extreme, or they’re not sure it even counts as abuse, especially since narcissists groom victims in ways that don’t look harmful at first. **Chelsea:** I get like being hesitant because I think it’s like admitting it, admitting this as a problem. It’s almost like taking a huge step in itself, and maybe that’s where the resistance comes from, but for me, it was just so helpful. There were times when an incident would happen, and I’d have to wait a week so my therapist, or maybe some don’t even have a therapist. Maybe your friends or family don’t know what’s going on. I know I didn’t always want to be calling them every time something happened. I remember it was once I finally, joined, it what a relief to know anytime there’s an incident I could get on the same day. Sometimes I didn’t even need to talk about it, but being in that space where I felt safe and not alone. It’s such an isolating experience to be going through this. Even just sitting and listening helped because it made me not feel crazy. It made me not feel so alone. ## SUPPORT THE BETRAYAL TRAUMA RECOVERY PODCAST **Anne:** Our community is incredible, and I always say that when one of us has an epiphany, all of us have an epiphany. When one of us gets to safety, it makes it better for everyone. We’re all working on deliverance together. And together, we can make this world a safer place, starting with our own home and then spreading it out to other women across the globe. I’m so grateful that you found us, and I’m grateful that shared your story. Thank you so much. **Chelsea:** Thank you for having me. **Anne:** If this podcast is helpful to you, [please support it](https://www.btr.org/about/#support "Support the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast"). Until next week, stay safe out there. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast, Related Posts --- ### [How to Know the Signs Husband Is Controlling in Marriage](https://www.btr.org/signs-husband-is-controlling/) **Published:** March 10, 2026 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** It’s not just yelling or threats. Learn the quiet, hidden behaviors that control your life. **Content:** When most people hear the word *“controlling,”* they typically imagine someone who uses threats or overt intimidation to get what they want. But often, **signs husband is controlling your life** can be covert and seem ordinary or caring. The most confusing part is this: a controlling husband may accuse *you* of being the controlling one by twisting reality until you start questioning your own motives. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take our[ free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). By the time the patterns become clear, many women already feel trapped between who they were told he was and who he’s revealed himself to be. ## WHAT ARE THE SIGNS A HUSBAND IS CONTROLLING? 7 QUESTIONS TO ASK If your husband has ever accused you of being controlling, it’s likely that he’s the one controlling. So before I get to our guest interview, here are seven questions to help you uncover the signs husband is controlling. 1. Does his version of romance mean, he’s just pressuring you? 2. When you raise concerns, does he dismiss these concerns or maybe blame shift or play the victim? 3. When you say no, does he push past it, punish you, or guilt you so that you give in? 4. Does he lean on you to carry his load, so much that you have to put your own load on the back burner. 5. Do his kind gestures or gifts come with strings attached? 6. Does he act like two different people: kind in public, but demeaning in private? 7. Have you noticed your world shrinking? Less time for hobbies, friends, family, any outside support? Control is a domestic abuse issue, so it’s not about just one incident. The key is to look for patterns over time. If you see signs husband is controlling you and need live support, [attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session](https://www.btr.org/group/) today. ## TRANSCRIPT: HOW TO KNOW IF YOUR HUSBAND IS CONTROLLING IN MARRIAGE **Anne:** We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Candace. Candace felt nervous, so she actually prepared a written version of her story. She’s going to read sometimes, and then sometimes I’ll ask her questions. Here’s a poignant part of her story that illustrates the signs husband is controlling her. **Candace:** Before I knew him, he worked at the library on campus, and looked up my information on the library database, my phone number, and where I lived. He drove by my house with the excuse he had come to town for a haircut. I would say that was stalking. He would then quote Bible verses to me that a wife’s body is not her own. A wife needs to submit to her husband. I felt sick to my stomach, started questioning my own sanity, and said to myself, I’m broken. **Anne:** We will get to that part of her story in just a minute. Welcome, Candace. **Candace:** Thank you, Anne for having me. **Anne:** So Candace, let’s start at the beginning. How did you feel about your husband when you first met him? **Candace:** We met at college in my second year, and he knew me before I knew him, because he worked at the library on campus. He looked up my information on the library database, my phone number, and where I lived. Once he found my information and I was in his sight, as a good catch. He drove by my house with the excuse later he had come to town for a haircut. I would say that was stalking. In my gut, I did not want to date him, and when he first asked me out, I said no. ## EARLY SIGNS HUSBAND IS CONTROLLING IN DATING: WHEN ROMANCE COMES WITH PRESSURE **Candace:** But the next time he asked me, he asked me for a coffee, and I said, “You need to ask my dad.” Thinking my dad would say no, and that would be the end of it. My parents raised me in a Christian home, it was kind of implied. You needed to make sure the guy asked your dad before you went out. My dad said yes, **Anne:** Was there something about him that you thought your dad would say, she can’t go out with this guy? **Candace:** In the past, I had dated some other guys, and my dad was like, no, that one’s not good. So I’m thinking my dad’s just gonna say no, and it’ll be the end of it. And I won’t have to worry about it. But my husband was a very smooth guy, and he fooled us all. When my dad met him. He thought he was a professor, a smart person and stuff. We started dating, and I began to think this is my one chance. No other guy would want me, so I better go for it. He checks all the boxes. He’s a Christian, he’s nice to me. He loves me. He’s kind, and he would come to my work and leave notes on my car. We would go to the movies. We would hang out with my friend and family. I didn’t know to look for signs husband is controlling. When we played games. he was always very attentive and wanted to do everything with me. Then one time he invited me to his house. He was renting while still in college. And he made me supper. Then afterwards, we started watching a movie. He jumped on top of me, and I thought two things. ## CONFESSIONS AND FALSE HOPE: SIGNS HUSBAND IS CONTROLLING BEFORE MARRIAGE **Candace:** One, get off me. I just want to watch the movie. And two, but he made me supper, so I better be good. I felt I couldn’t say no to his advances. Our clothes stayed on, but I still felt so violated after that. We dated for about a year. Then we were engaged for 10 months. My soon-to-be husband confessed an addiction to pornography before we married. Beginning when he was a teenager, looking at images on his computer. But he assured me that once we married, that would go away. Because there would be no more guilt, since he had a wife and could have all the sex he wanted. I remember going to my mom and telling her about what he confessed to me. I remember her saying to me, “It would be something that I would have to deal with for the rest of my life. And was I ready to do that?” I wasn’t even sure what it meant, so I said yes, I can do this. He loves me and it’ll be okay. I soon found out that no matter how much sex I gave my husband, he was still struggling with pornography. I would say the more sex I gave him, the more he got into the pornography, and he was good at keeping it a secret from me. He was very smart and very technical. He built his own computer, so he knew all the tricks to wipe his computer of his history going to these pornography sites. ## FROM COMPLIANCE TO CONTROL: THE PATTERNS THAT SHAPED ME **Candace:** In the first few months of our marriage, My husband confessed to me. He had fallen into temptation on his computer. I said, why would you do that when I was in the bed next to you? You could just ask me and I would give you sex. I grew up in a Christian home, went to church every Sunday. My parents homeschooled my siblings and me. We lived a pretty sheltered life. We were not a touchy feely sort of family. I knew they loved me and never doubted it. I was a very compliant child who always helped everyone, especially my mom raising my younger siblings. And I was a mom to my two youngest siblings and was good at doing the laundry, cleaning and making meals. One thing that stands out for me about my childhood is that I wasn’t allowed to show my feelings. If I was angry or sad, I was told to go to my room until I had a better attitude. So going into my marriage, I was always very compliant, didn’t complain, and if something needed to be done, I would do it. I thought I was not that smart or worthy, so I should be thankful that my husband picked me. But if I looked back and thought about it, I had put myself and my brother through college. I had a job, my own car and insurance, and no debt. My dream was to always be a mom to homeschool my kids. I married for that and wanted that the whole first year into my marriage. I think it was a few weeks after the honeymoon, when my in-laws came to my husband one day and said I needed birth control. Was this evidence of signs husband is controlling? ## SIGNS HUSBAND IS CONTROLLING YOU THROUGH RAGE, MANIPULATION, & FEAR **Candace:** This would be too much for my husband if we had a child right away. I did not listen to them, and I got pregnant early in our first year of marriage. I miscarried in October, about 10 weeks along in my pregnancy, and I felt devastated and blamed myself. My husband was happy that I had miscarried. He didn’t have to feed and care for another person, and that hurt me all the more. My miscarriage, my husband’s rage started to come out. Rage is one of the other signs husband is controlling. I don’t remember what the fights were about, but one time he was angry about something, to the point where he was about to put his hands around my neck to choke me. Another time early into our marriage. I was so scared of his rage that I locked myself in the bathroom and called his parents to come. Once they arrived, my husband is sitting at the piano playing as if nothing would ever happen. My husband got fired from his job. His story was that he got angry about having to work late, so he did something to one of the work vehicles so it wouldn’t start. Another event that stands out in my mind while we were living in the trailer park with our neighbor beside us didn’t like us for whatever reason, and one day I decided to go over with a tin of cookies as a peace offering. My husband came with me. We went up to the door. My husband knocked, and the neighbor didn’t come to the door. So my husband yells, I know you’re in there. The neighbor answers the door, and I hand the cookies over and say something nice. ## WHEN OTHERS SEE THE SIGNS HUSBAND IS CONTROLLING **Candace:** I don’t remember what my husband says, but the neighbor takes offense and closes the door in my husband’s face. At this point, he’s angry and bangs on the door. The neighbor opens the door and tells me to get my husband off their porch. All I could think was what just happened? And why did my husband become so angry? **Anne:** If you had to guess right now, what would you say happened with the neighbors? **Candace:** I think she knew something was off with my husband. She, from the get go, did not like us living beside her and renting. And if he had his vehicle over on a little patch of a grass, she would yell at him. I don’t know if she was in tune with that. **Anne:** Or maybe she’d caught him looking in her window? So he had told you he had a thing with pornography. Did he end up going to a program? **Candace:** So my husband decided to get help for his pornography addiction. Pornography is one of the signs husband is controlling. He joined an online men’s program specifically, and he had a mentor in that program. He also talked to our pastor about it, so our pastor was aware of it as well. And we also had an older couple in our church that mentored both of us. I’ll never forget, she said, “Just give your husband more sex. Why are you withholding that from your husband?” Once our fourth child was born, I went into deep baby blues, and one night I had just finished nursing and headed back to bed. At 4:45 in the morning, my husband wanted sex and just raped me. ## WHEN SIGNS HUSBAND IS CONTROLLING INTENSIFY BEHIND CLOSED DOORS **Candace:** For years after, he would make jokes about it, saying 4:45, 4:45. I didn’t think it was rape at the time, I thought it was my wifely duty to make sure my husband got sex whenever he wanted. I felt used and dirty, I did not understand it at all. But in my body, I knew something wasn’t right. I discovered that anything I did tell him, he would save and then pull it out again whenever it suited him. This lack of respect for me was one of the signs husband is controlling. We started having more fights, and it was usually around me not communicating right. He started to see a therapist for his depression, but also for our marriage. Since I didn’t communicate properly. **Anne:** Oh, my word, I’m so sorry. I hear these stories every day, and it’s still heartbreaking every time. It’s awful. When he started seeing the therapist, was this his idea? **Candace:** It was his idea, yes. **Anne:** As you’re sharing your story, I think many women think, well, if he would just get into a program or go to therapy, maybe we could solve our problems. Did you think that at all before he went to the program or before he went to therapy? **Candace:** Because he had struggled with depression, I thought he needed help. I didn’t know enough about the pornography and his [secret sexual basement](https://www.btr.org/secret-sexual-basement/) to know how to deal with that. So when he started going to therapists, it was just for the depression. Then he was like, maybe you should come to for our marriage, because we were starting to have more arguments and such. **Anne:** Okay, and when he started going to therapy for his depression. Did you think things are gonna get better? ## HE RIPPED UP MY WRITTEN THOUGHTS **Anne:** Can you take me back to your mindset back then? Not knowing what you know now, obviously, ’cause we don’t know. All of us were in that stage. I thought this therapist will help us. What was your feeling about him going to therapy? **Candace:** Yeah, I thought it would help. Our first session, my husband complained about me not communicating well. I thought I’m naturally a quiet person and prefer to listen to people instead of forcing my opinion. The therapist told me I was to go home and write down my thoughts that I wanted to share with my husband. The next session, these thoughts were on a paper, ready to read to the therapist. My husband and I started reading it. And I don’t remember what I had written. But my husband got so angry that he walked out of this session and left without saying a word. He was gone for about 30 minutes, and a therapist didn’t know what to do. And said to me, This has never happened to him before. It wasn’t really a shock to me, because that’s what my husband would do if he didn’t get what he wanted. He would drive off and then come back as if nothing had happened. Yet, another of the signs husband is controlling. So once my husband finally returned to the therapist’s office, the therapist said it would be best for my husband to rip up the papers I had written and throw them into the fireplace. So, my husband did that right there. It made me feel like nothing I said mattered. It was only about my husband. We also attended some conferences. One of them was about prayer. ## TOLD I NEEDED TO DWELL ON MY HUSBAND’S GOOD TRAITS **Candace:** I had an encounter or vision that I was in a bright area with light all around. The light felt safe and warm. And then Jesus wrapped me in his arms, and I felt completely safe and at peace. He said, “I’ve got you.” My husband did not have anything like that, which I thought was so strange. **Anne:** Were these marriage conferences? **Candace:** Yeah. The first one was, the second was a conference specifically for couples dealing with infidelity and pornography addiction. And at that conference, we had a couple that mentored us. I’ll never forget what the wife of the husband mentor said to me. She gave me a notebook and said I needed to write down all the good traits of my husband and dwell on those things instead of being negative. I never did that. We are also part of a Bible study group that met once a week. We had one night the topic of forgiveness, and I asked the leader, “How long do you have to forgive someone if they keep hurting me with the same thing over and over and over again?” They didn’t have an answer for me. Back home, my husband was so upset with me. Because he said I had put it on him, and I was like, I wish I hadn’t said anything. But at the same time, I wanted to know. What do you do? And at that point I still didn’t know about signs husband is controlling and boundaries. **Anne:** Did you ask that in front of your husband at the time **Candace:** Yes, yes I did. **Anne:** He was there and he heard the question? Okay. **Candace:** But I didn’t say any names or stuff like that. I just said in general. ## SIGNS HUSBAND IS CONTROLLING: EVERY VACATION MY HUSBAND HAS A BLOW UP **Candace:** I was a busy mom looking after four kids now, homeschooling them. I did everything that needed to be done, [when your husband doesn’t help with housework](https://www.btr.org/when-your-husband-doesnt-help-with-housework/). He worked all day. And then came home and be on his computer or phone. If I asked him to do something, it took forever, so I became independent and did everything around the house. So it’s my job to run the house, even do the outdoor work. I did it all. I rarely left my kids alone with my husband. If I did, it was only for a short time. I took my kids everywhere with me. There were two times that he watched them. That was when my one child broke their arm walking around the outside of the trampoline. And another time, my child cut their forehead deep enough that it needed stitches. But because my husband didn’t think it was too serious, he didn’t do anything. I told my husband to take our child to the hospital to get the arm x-rayed to see if it was broken. Otherwise, it wouldn’t have been checked out. As the kids got older, we went on family trips. And every vacation, my husband had some kind of blow up over the strangest thing. One time we camped and he got all upset with me that I didn’t have my phone with me. And he tried to text me. He said he was almost going to call a missing person search on me. I was so confused since it wasn’t a big camp. I was at the beach fishing with my nephews, and why would I have my phone on me at camp? We still had fights every couple of weeks about him not getting enough texts from me. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## THINGS START TO FALL APART DURING COVID **Candace:** He would then quote Bible verses to me. “A wife’s body is not her own. A wife needs to submit to her husband.” It made me sick to my stomach, and I started questioning my own sanity and saying to myself, I’m broken. There must be something wrong with me. But I don’t like sex and never have our entire marriage. My husband also liked having long discussions late into the night. And sometimes even. woke me up to have a long talk about something that he felt was important to talk about. I always felt worse after the long talk and questioned myself, whereas my husband was always so happy. Things started to fall apart when COVID hit, and my husband moved back home and had a home office. He loved being at home and could come down whenever he wanted to check on us, have lunch with us, go for walks. I hated it. I was now seeing more signs husband is controlling, and he loved having control. It got so bad, He would pick all the movies he could watch, the music, we could listen to. If my friends came over, he had to sit with us and dominate the conversation. And if we went anywhere in the vehicle, he would pick the music. If I put earbuds in to listen to something else, he would get upset with me. so I wasn’t allowed to do that. He would control the temperature in the house with his phone, so if I changed it, he would put it back. I started to have conversations with my sister about what was going on and how I was feeling, **Anne:** Did your husband know? **Candace:** Yes, he’d say, “Hey, I love you. You are just depressed.” ## I RECOGNIZE THE ABUSE **Candace:** At this point, my sister starts sending me YouTube videos to watch about narcissists, and I start going down the rabbit trail. I started listening to a podcast, but something was still missing for me. And then she had you on Anne as a guest on one of her podcasts, and right away that was the piece missing. You told it like it was. Pornography is abuse, and that’s exactly what I’d experienced. I started to become a little caterpillar, eating it all up. At some point in my journey, I moved out of the bedroom and slept upstairs with my kids. I bought a mattress and just moved it around from room to room. My kids wanted to have me up there, because they started to have bad dreams. And were afraid to come out of their rooms when my husband was in the house. My husband now became a spiritual leader, and had to read the Bible to us at every meal and pray for us if we left the house. It was crazy. He said he had found the Holy Spirit, and now truly knew what it meant to be a Christian. He told me I needed to forgive and move forward, because he no longer did pornography, and I could trust him. A week later, he gets my phone and reads all my messages to see what I’ve been saying to my sister. Trust, huh? **Anne:** Really quick, did you tell him you were listening to BTR or tell him anything about BTR at the time? **Candace:** No, I did not tell him. I kept that all very quiet. **Anne:** Okay. ## GOING TO MY HUSBAND’S THERAPIST: SIGNS HUSBAND IS CONTROLLING **Candace:** My sister warned me too. She said, the more you tell him, the more ammunition he will use, because he was still seeing a therapist, and he’s just giving him more tools for his tool belt that he can use against you. **Anne:** Yeah, increasing tools. **Candace:** Then he confessed he read my phone, but it was okay if I wanted to open my own bank account. And I was like, thank you. I’m glad I have your permission now. **Anne:** Wow. **Candace:** So my husband then wants me to meet with his therapist of 15 years. And at first I said no, because he had built a relationship with him for a long time and it just didn’t feel right. I didn’t wanna repeat my words being ripped up and thrown into the fire again. But my husband persisted and said his therapist worked with couples all the time and marriage problems. So I met with his therapist without my husband, and I say to the therapist, my husband always has the right words, and no one will ever believe me. The therapist says he’s not going to be fooled. And proceeds to tell me how I need to encourage my husband and welcome him back when he punched through the door yet again. Another therapist doesn’t see it. It was only about saving the marriage at the cost of losing more of myself, to lift my husband up. I never had another session with the therapist and instead kept listening to more and more BTR podcasts. My sister warned me not to go to another session or couple session with my husband. ## FINALLY A THERAPIST BELIEVES ME **Candace:** And she then recommended a therapist that deals specifically with abuse. The first session I go to, I say to the therapist, “My husband Is a words guy and always has the right words to say. I can never get it right no matter what I say. And no one will ever believe me if I said I’ve been abused.” Or believe signs husband is controlling. And she shows me an apple and said, if I cut this apple on the outside, you would see all the marks I’ve made. But if I take that same apple and drop it on the floor or bang it against the table, it still looks fine from the outside. If I cut open that apple, you would see it’s all bruised inside. That is what you are going through. I said to her, “All I have to do is survive until my youngest is 18 years old.” And she says to me, after I tell her more of my story, that I probably only had about two years before my husband did something more drastic to keep me stuck. Because he’s going to realize I’m pulling away even more. And his outbursts are becoming more and more potent, and using words against me, by saying, “I promised I would stay for the kids, divorce is not an option, we’ll go bankrupt. We made a covenant before God about marriage. Are you breaking that covenant of God?” By October I found out what boundaries are, and I put it through Christ to protect myself because my body was now shaking. Or it felt like my skin was on fire, burning my flesh. ## MY HUSBAND SMASHES MY KID’S PUMPKIN **Candace:** I asked him not to touch me, not make comments about how beautiful I look, was that he loves me so much, stepping over those boundaries. Then he had another blow up after returning from a business trip. We had carved pumpkins. My oldest carved a Disney character from a movie. My husband said it was a devil pumpkin and wanted me to get rid of it. I refused and said it was not a devil pumpkin. My husband then took the pumpkin and smashed the pumpkin in the driveway. My oldest was devastated and confused about why he would smash that pumpkin. And not our youngest siblings pumpkin carved a witch on it. I was still sleeping upstairs and had moved in more permanently to my second oldest child. I went to my therapist again and told about the pumpkin smash and other blow ups that were happening. M y therapist said I didn’t have years, but months now before it would escalate again. So in November, my husband was on another business trip. My kids and I packed up all we could with the help of some friends and family, and moved to my parents’ house. One of the friends that helped us move commented later about how shocking it was to see my kids looking very happy. Instead of sad and crying, it’s like they knew it was bad enough. My dad and I met with my husband 5 days later to discuss things. My dad, being very insightful, put a no trespass order on his place. So, my husband could not stalk us. ## THE MOMENT I SEE SIGNS HUSBAND IS CONTROLLING EVERYTHING **Candace:** My dad also had my husband sign a paper that said he would continue to look after the kids and I and not cancel my credit card or my phone. My husband kept saying to my dad, people don’t understand, I don’t understand why my wife wants to leave me. My husband would send emails picking days that would work for him to see the kids, and I responded back by saying they didn’t wan to visit with him at this time. I also found my kids and I had nightmares a lot now, and I wasn’t sure what that was. Our bodies dealing with the trauma. At the end of December, I sent my husband an email saying he had three options. One, let the kids and I move back into the house, and he finds his own place to live. Two, we sell the house and both find our own places. Or three, both hire lawyers and duke it out, so to speak. He sends back that he wants to talk things out with me, and he doesn’t like to get into a legal battle. He then removes me from our joint email account, so I can no longer have access to our bank account, credit card or phone bills, nothing. And then over the next month, he removes me from other things we shared on our phones or deletes messages he sent to me on our app. and lies to me that it’s normal for things to disappear on the app after a while. **Anne:** When he started doing this, were you surprised? That happened to me too. It happens to so many of us. ## SIGNS HUSBAND IS CONTROLLING: FINANCIAL MANIPULATION AND LEGAL TRAPS **Anne:** But before it happened in my mind, I still hadn’t wrapped my head around what I was dealing with. So when he shut down the bank account, I was in shock. When you started seeing signs husband is controlling access to accounts, how did you feel? **Candace:** Yes, I was definitely in shock after he started shutting me from the email account, because I’m like, why? Why would you do that? We’ve had this joint one for years. **Anne:** Especially after he’s just said, Hey, let’s just talk. We can work it out. It’s like what? You’ve just said. **Candace:** Mm-hmm. **Anne:** Everything will be okay, and then you do that. **Candace:** Yeah, and the thing was, he said about the email too, that was an alias for mine actually. And I’m like, that doesn’t make any sense to me. Because then said, well, I’ll just forward you stuff. So he forwarded me stuff from that email address. I’m like, you can’t tell me it’s an alias for your other one. It just didn’t make sense to me. **Anne:** It didn’t make sense ’cause he was lying. **Candace:** Exactly. So in January, I go to the bank to get access to the joint account. Something was off at the meeting with the banker. And then I find out later, my husband has closed our savings account. And I only have access to the checking account. Two weeks later, I get a message from his lawyer saying I have to the end of the month to seek my own lawyer. I can’t go into detail right now. **Anne:** So he lies to you and says, Hey, let’s just work it out. Can we just talk? In the meantime, he is getting his own lawyer. ## HE’S FORCING THE KIDS TO VISIT HIM **Anne:** In the meantime, he is shutting down all the bank accounts, moving money, doing all the things. And then when he is ready, he is like, okay, now you have to get your own lawyer. But before he is like, no, let’s just chat. Everything will work out. It is deliberately lying to you so that he could prepare. **Candace:** Very deliberate, yeah, so I can’t go into too much detail right now. All I can say is we’re going through hell. Every step along the way has been difficult. Trying to protect my kids, who are forced to visit their dad. My husband is good at playing the victim, and he keeps saying, I have no idea. My therapist says your kids are of the age, so they can choose whether or not they go. But because I’m in this collaborative process and they say that I have told my kids that their dad is this horrible person, I need to tell my kids that he’s so lovable, and we need to go there and have a great time with your dad. **Anne:** It is like reunification therapy basically. **Candace:** It is just so frustrating right now. **Anne:** I’m so sorry. It’s an extension of the abuse. And he probably knew that and prepared for that, and then got you stuck in it. **Candace:** Yeah, and my lawyer, I didn’t share a lot of information because I knew it would get back to my husband . So probably like three or four meetings in my lawyer said, I just wanna have a talking with you one-on-one. I get the impression that this is not going right, and that you’re not happy with this process. ## COURT ORDERED TO SEND THE KIDS TO THEIR DAD’S **Candace:** And she’s like, I wanna hear your story. So I was like, here’s what’s happening. I said, my kids and I are trying to get out of this safe. And she says, okay, that makes a lot of sense. She is more on my side now, but at the beginning, and I was the only one in the room fighting for myself. Everybody in that room was all about my husband and what he needed, and he was just a great guy, and I had turned the kids against him. **Anne:** I am so, so sorry. It is awful, and it’s happening with everyone. Women trying to get to safety, can’t get to safety because they’re court ordered or put through this process that makes it worse, and they miss these signs husband is controlling. And you wouldn’t think it wouldn’t be like this, but it’s really bad right now. I am so sorry. I’m glad you know what’s going on. That is great, but it’s almost like more traumatizing to know what is going on and that you can’t get help. **Candace:** And it hurts so much because I’m like, this is a person I trusted. How can that person I thought I could trust be so the opposite, like [my husband is lying to me](https://www.btr.org/my-husband-is-lying-to-me/). And to him, it’s all about the money and those kids. Because he cannot get to me anymore, he wants those kids. Every weekend, the kids have to go to his house. My youngest son right now, he said, Mom, I used to love weekends, and now I hate them. Here’s the other thing that gets interesting. I joined BTR and started attending the BTR sessions. I met Coach Jo, and Coach Sharon. ## *OUR FAMILY WIZARD* WORKS TO HELP SIGNS HUSBAND IS CONTROLLING **Candace:** I also listened to the podcasts and had listened to Coach Jo’s story. Then I enrolled in the [Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). My eyes were finally open, and I could see the signs husband is controlling as I go through all this legal stuff. And the message has been so helpful. Like you say in the workshop. And I talked with Coach Jo, my lawyer, and his lawyer recommended Our Family Wizard. My husband made a big stink about Our Family Wizard. But I was like, “No, we’re doing this Family Wizard.” I’ve sent him two messages on there, and I love it. I think it’s a great way to do parenting and figure out the scheduling and all that. I was like, this is so easy to use because I am not technical at all. Yet, my husband, who’s very technical, doesn’t want it because he is not in control. **Anne:** Well, it also, he has to be accountable. Every thing he writes or does is documented. And you can’t say, oh, I didn’t get it, because it says when you got it. Or you can’t say, yeah, I’m reading the messages, because it says if you read it or not. **Candace:** Yes, and I love that feature, ’cause I can just go in, I’m like, “Nope, he hasn’t seen it yet. Nope, he hasn’t been on yet,” But the lawyers agree with it. Then my husband went to his lawyer and said, “I’m really concerned about BTR. Because it talks about abuse and DARVO and all this stuff.” I was then told I needed to get off that. ## I’M NOT ALLOWED TO HAVE A SUPPORT GROUP **Anne:** Wait, who told you you couldn’t listen to a podcast and go to a support group? Your lawyers? **Candace:** His lawyer, because he had said BTR was abusive. And he was really concerned, because it wasn’t teaching me good things. It was teaching me that pornography was abuse. I put it on my credit card. **Anne**: So quick, this issue of the credit card is a concern for many women, so we actually made a change. Any charge for our services will be listed on your statement as help.btr.org. That actually goes to a dummy wellness site, talks about hormones on there. So if your husband sees help.btr.org and he goes to that site, it doesn’t even have any information really. You can check it out. We couldn’t do a totally random site. It had to be recognizable, because for a while we did like a completely random site, and women did not recognize the charge. And then they ended up disputing, and then they were like, no, wait, I do want your services. So as she talks about this, know that now any charge for our services will be listed on your statement as help.btr.org. Which is that dummy wellness site. Getting abuse education is bad for abuse victims, apparently. **Candace:** Apparently, but he was allowed to have whatever group he wanted, but as soon as I had a group, oh no. That was not allowed. Yeah, it made no sense. **Anne:** Heaven forbid you find out what he is doing. They’re like, oh shoot, that is what I do. She’ll know exactly what I’m doing. **Candace:** Yes, I’m from a Christian background. ## STILL WALKING & GOING FORWARD **Candace:** I have done the [meditations in the workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) to calm my body. The first one, I don’t even know what the right word is, but I could picture myself with the lights. It was so peaceful, and it felt so wonderful to have that feeling again after being in this fight and flight mode so much. **Anne:** I am so glad. I’m so glad you found [Living Free](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) helpful. It took me a long time to create all the illustrations. And the videos in that format. ‘Cause it’s so drastically different than anything a therapist will tell you or anything, like a court professional will tell you, they’ll, I’ll say stuff like, make sure you communicate clearly. Apparently, if you were the world’s most perfect communicator, your problems would go away with this guy. So, because it’s so drastically different, I was like I really need to do visuals so women can process it. **Candace:** I was like, oh, that makes so much sense now, I’m very visual. And to picture that in my mind what was happening. Yeah, and I also remember being in a group session with Coach Jo, and she said to me, “Imagine you’re walking up a mountain, but you’re like going around it because you can’t go straight up. You have to go around it. And on one side of the mountain, you’re on the light. It’s very bright, sunny, and beautiful, but on the backside it’s very dark and shadow, and sometimes we’re on the bright side and sometimes we’re on the dark side. You’re still going up.” And that has stuck with me, where I’m still walking and going forward. ## SIGNS HUSBAND IS CONTROLLING: I STILL QUESTION MYSELF **Candace:** But there are times where it is super hard and there are times where it’s like super good and I’m just like, wow. Like I’m so thankful. **Anne:** I think that’s another thing that [Living Free](/livingfree) really helps women understand and see signs husband is controlling. The reason it’s gonna be hard, and the reason it’s gonna be very hard, is because of their character and the way they interact. They’re in that cave and doing what they’re doing on purpose. So there’s never gonna be a time, unfortunately, where they realize that what they’re doing is hurting us because they know they’re doing it, and that was hard for me to understand. **Candace:** Well, I did go over it with my daughter a couple of times. Because I find that I still question myself at times and say, “Would it have been better to stay in the marriage and keep my head down?” A very close friend of mine sent me this, and I just wanna read it. She wrote, “I know how much of a struggle it can be making the hard decisions. I’m sorry, you’re having to walk the road of even having to make them. Yes, your kids are hurting, and so are you. Do you honestly think they’re hurting because you left your husband, or because of what your husband has and is still doing? Staying wouldn’t have made it any better. If your kids are getting to an age where it was obvious something was going on, it would’ve hurt no matter what. And that’s not your fault. That’s a consequence of your husband’s choice.” ## HAVING HIM OUT OF MY SPACE MADE THE BIGGEST DIFFERENCE **Candace:** “God has you, and he is in all the details. It doesn’t make sense now, but hopefully someday it will.” That really spoke to me that day. There will be hard days, but there’s also good days ahead. **Anne:** It’s hard to see who they are until we actually get some distance, and then once we do, it’s so shocking. It’s hard for our eyes to process it. I felt like, and I’m not sure if you feel like this. Even though it’s so hard right now, at least not having him in my space, it made the biggest difference. **Candace:** Yes. The biggest thing for me is now that I’m out of that and living here. I feel okay with myself now. **Anne:** Oh, that’s great. Also to know that you were always okay, and there was never anything wrong with you. You just needed to get away from the harm. The thing that was hurting you would stop. You didn’t have to go through a year of therapy, and so many women who are going through therapy or some kind of program or whatever, with this abusive man thinking they’ve got something wrong with them that they need to work on.They might have some things that aren’t healthy that they may be doing as a result of being abused, but safety is the treatment. **Candace:** Right, yes. **Anne:** Candace, I appreciate you taking the time to share your story. Thank you so much. **Candace:** Thank you so much for having me on. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Therapist for Trauma Bonding? What No One Tells You](https://www.btr.org/therapist-for-trauma-bonding/) **Published:** March 17, 2026 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** What to know if you feel like you can't stop feeling connected to him. **Content:** ​Are you looking for a therapist for trauma bonding​ because someone told you that you’re trauma bonded with your emotionally abusive husband (or ex)? Here’s what no one will tell you: ## WHAT PEOPLE GET WRONG ABOUT “TRAUMA BONDING” People often use the phrase “trauma bonding” to describe a victim’s attachment to an abusive partner. But traditionally, a trauma bond refers to something very different. ### TRUE TRAUMA BONDING EXAMPLES A trauma bond forms when people go through a traumatic event **together**, such as: - Siblings growing up in the same abusive home - Friends surviving a violent event together - A family experiencing a natural disaster In these cases, **shared trauma created a bond**. Both people were victims of the same event. That’s not what’s happening in an abusive relationship. ## WHY “THERAPY FOR TRAUMA BONDING” CAN BE MISLEADING If you’re thinking about getting a therapist for trauma bonding, you may be trying to understand why you feel attached to someone who hurts you. But labeling your experience as a “bond” can unintentionally shift responsibility onto you. It can make it seem like: - You’re choosing this connection - You’re emotionally dependent in a way that’s your fault - You need to “break your attachment” But what if the attachment isn’t something you created? What if he **manufactured** it? ## THE MANUFACTURED RELATIONAL TETHER Instead of a trauma bond, what many women experience is something different: A **manufactured relational tether**. This happens he creates a cycle of: - Chaos - Confusion - Emotional harm - Intermittent relief He destabilizes you…then becomes the one who soothes you. Not because you chose it. But because it was **engineered**. It’s actually emotional abuse. To find out if you’re experiencing this, take my free [emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ![The Surprising Truth About Trauma Bonds - They Don't Exist!](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/QleyqobSRCQ/maxresdefault.jpg) ## HOW TO BREAK A TRAUMA BOND WITHOUT THERAPY If you’ve been told you need therapy for trauma bonding, you may feel… - dependent on him, even when you don’t want to - both drawn to him and repelled by him - confused by his words vs. his actions - frustrated with yourself for not “just leaving” - like this must somehow be your fault - relief when he’s kind—even if it’s brief That doesn’t mean you’re “bonded” to him. But it does mean that he’s lying to you by creating cycles of harm and relief. If you’re trying to heal from your [marriage without therapy](/marriage-without-therapy/), there’s another way. I’ll share it with you below. ## 14 SIGNS YOU DON’T NEED A THERAPIST FOR TRAUMA BONDING He withdraws, then gives affection when you’re distressed when he… - isolates you from supportive people - makes you doubt your perception of reality - alternates between kindness and cruelty - controls resources like money or access - undermines your confidence - creates problems he later “fixes” - pushes your boundaries repeatedly - positions himself as the victim - uses other people to provoke insecurity - gives approval only sometimes - acts different in public vs. private - promises change but doesn’t follow through - blames you for his behavior - witholds affection This isn’t a mutual bond. It’s a **pattern of control**. ## WHY THIS DISTINCTION MATTERS If you believe you’re “trauma bonded,” you may think, *I need to heal myself to break this bond.* But if what you’re experiencing is manipulation, then the path forward is different. You don’t need to fix yourself. You need **clarity**. One woman shared: > “I thought I was the problem because I couldn’t detach. > > But once I understood the pattern, everything changed.” ## MOVING FORWARD (WITHOUT BLAMING YOURSELF) Here’s the think, I don’t think you need therapy for trauma bonding, but that doesn’t mean you don’t need support. You may need someone to help you: - See the pattern clearly - Understand emotional and psychological abuse - Learn how to protect yourself - Rebuild trust in your own perception At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, women learn how to step out of confusion and into clarity. And once you can see it clearly, you can begin to move forward—with truth, with support, and with your sense of self intact. ## SO HOW DO YOU BREAK FREE. . . - Open up to a safe person or safe group, check out [my online trauma bond support group.](/group/ "Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group") - Become educated about [betrayal trauma](https://www.btr.org/) and what causes it - Practice radical self-care daily - Take my [Living Free Workshop](/livingfree/). ![Am I Trauma Bonded to My Abuser](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-do-you-break-a-trauma-bond.png "is There Such a Thing As Trauma Bond")*best Information Source for Betrayal Trauma Instead of Unhelpful Trauma Bonding Examples This Gave Me Hope That I Could Move Forward Thank You Anne for Writing This* Many women don’t realize how dangerous this type of manipulation is. In fact, experts who work with trafficking victims describe the exact same cycles: - grooming - confusion - emotional dependency - intermittent kindness - fear of leaving - hope that he’ll change **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma --- ### [If Your Husband Lies About Small Things, You Need This](https://www.btr.org/husband-lies-about-small-things/) **Published:** March 24, 2026 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** When your husband lies about small things, it can mean something HUGE. **Content:** If your **husband lies about small things**, here’s why it’s not a small problem. Many women in our community describe the same beginning: they start noticing little lies, inconsistencies, or half-truths, but they dismiss them because, overall, he seems like a good guy. He’s involved. He apologizes. He’s trying. So the lies get minimized, explained away, or pushed aside. One of the hardest parts of living with deception is that clarity doesn’t usually arrive with a big confession or undeniable proof. It comes in fragments, small moments that are easy to dismiss, especially when your goal is to hold your family together. When a husband lies about small things, it often points to something much bigger, but that pattern can be hard to see while you’re still inside it. In this episode, Anne shares the **French Fry Analogy** to explain why lying, gaslighting, and blame-shifting about “small things” can be a major red flag. Before reading on, here’s something many women don’t realize: **lying can be an emotional abuse tactic**. That truth explains why so many thoughtful, capable women stay confused for so long—not because they’re in denial, but because it’s nearly impossible to see clearly when you’re living in a pattern that alternates between hurtful behavior and reassuring gestures, between small lies and moments that seem like progress. To discover if he’s using any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take our [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ## TRANSCRIPT: WHEN HE LIES ABOUT SMALL THINGS, THIS BRILLIANT ANALOGY OFFERS INSIGHT Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. I’ve been calling her Jenna to protect her identity. You’ll hear in this interview that Jenna didn’t come to clarity because her marriage suddenly got worse. She found clarity when she finally had language for the patterns and she could see how the small lies really revealed something much bigger. So let’s get into it. Welcome, Jenna **Jenna:** Thank you, Anne. **Anne:** Jenna and I have been interacting on social media for a long time. On social media, we take the concepts I teach here on the podcast and make visual representations of these concepts, usually through infographics. But every once in a while, I do a video. One of the infographics I posted was an epiphany for Jenna. It helped her see that her husband had been lying about small things, which distracted her from realizing he was also lying about big things. ![if Husband Lies About Small Things What Does That Mean](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Husband-Lies-About-Small-Things--1024x1024.webp "Husband Lies About Small Things")Speaking of social media, on [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/BetrayalTraumaRecovery "Facebook"). I’m also on Instagram [@btr.org\_\_](https://www.instagram.com/btr.org_ "@btr.org__"), TikTok [@btr.org](https://www.tiktok.com/@btr.org?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc "@btr.org"), and if you search btr.org on [YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZIK0YJZYlf5fxsdWFbXC8w "YouTube"), you’ll find me there. If you want to comment anonymously on any particular episode, let’s say this one, go to our website, [btr.org](https://www.btr.org/) and in the search bar put in the title of the episode. So for this one, it would be, my husband lies about small things. This episode will come up. You can see the transcription and scroll down to the bottom. And comment anonymously about what you think. I always love your comments. And I interact with women on the website all the time. I also interact with women on social media. ## MY MARRIAGE WAS NOT HEALTHY **Anne:** So you’re following me on social media, we’re interacting online and then you see this infographic. What happened next? **Jenna:** It resonated instantly with me. I thought we had hard times, but things are still getting better. I thought we were on that upward trajectory. But when I saw it on Instagram. It just suddenly clicked for me. It has two different graphs. One says, “What I thought my marriage was” and it shows a graph that goes up and down, but it has a trajectory that’s going up. Then, it says, “healthy, hard, healthy, hard.” **Anne:** Yeah, it’s kind of like a stock market graph. It’s going up in general and healthy is when it goes up and hard is when it dips down. And when it goes back up, it goes even higher. **Jenna:** It captures the experience I had exactly. Then, underneath what I thought my marriage was, it says what it really was. Instead of the healthy and hard healthy and hard points, it’s actually grooming and abuse, grooming and abuse. The grooming just gets more extreme, and the abuse stays the same. So it’s not that the marriage is improving. It’s that the grooming is just improving, and abuse is still there. **Anne:** The abuse is actually probably getting worse, but you can’t go lower in a graph. So I created this infographic because that was my experience. ![when Husbands Lie About Small Things](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/when-husbands-lie.webp "when Husbands Lie")## RECOGNIZING EMOTIONAL ABUSE PATTERNS WHEN MY HUSBAND LIES ABOUT SMALL THINGS **Anne:** I thought as we did addiction recovery, and we went to all these therapists, and we did [12 step for wives of addicts](/12-step-for-wives-of-addicts/ "12 step for wives of pornography addicts")…. all the stuff that we would take a step forward and then two steps back. Because the addiction recovery industrial complex told me “He’s going to have relapses” and “progress, not perfection.” I thought, “Oh, we are improving over time, but of course, it’s not just going to be a perfectly straight line to success. We’re going to have ups and downs along the way.” But when I finally took a step back and realized it was abuse, and that my husband lies about small things as part of that pattern, I saw that we weren’t actually moving forward at all. I was just going around in circles. What I thought were setbacks were really just more lies, more grooming, and more emotional abuse. Let’s talk about the factors that would lead a woman to think that these are the regular ups and downs of either marriage in general, or the ups and downs of being in a relationship with a man addicted to exploitative material or maybe has a mental health issue. **Jenna:** I think the actions he did were positive. He was going to church. And he participated in an addiction recovery group. He did all the things that you would think of when you think of improving. Even times when he would apologize. Or times when he would not gaslight me. I thought that was positive and thought maybe that was improvement. **Anne:** Congratulations, you didn’t lie. I’m so proud of you! ![Why Does He Lie About Small Things](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/why-does-he-lie.webp "Why Does He Lie")## MY HUSBAND WAS LYING & I WAS STICKING IT OUT **Jenna:** Seriously, it would be like, oh wow, he took money out of my wallet. And didn’t think I saw, but he didn’t try to convince me that he didn’t do that. As long as you’re going to a group, to therapy, to church, there’s this idea that just doing those things equals I’m a good person. **Anne:** I think there’s also the societal idea that everything is fixable. As long as you’re willing to work on it and go to therapy. Of course, there’s going to be a solution. Many people go straight to whether their [abusive husband needs therapy](/your-abusive-husbands-therapist/ "heir abusive husband needs therapy") or an addiction recovery program. Rather than thinking, “Whoa, we need to get you emotionally and psychologically safe.” ## WHY DOES MY HUSBAND LIE? I was talking to my uncle the other day about my ex, telling him some details. And he was shocked. And then at five o’clock in the morning, the next day he emailed me and said, “Anne, your ex needs a treatment program.” I just laughed, I was like, “That’s what I thought. And so that’s why I got him into a treatment program.” Because he’s abusive and he lies, treatment didn’t help him. And no one told me it was abuse, which is why I’m doing this podcast. ![My Husband Lies](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/husband-lies.webp "Husband Lies")**Jenna:** Yeah. I think there’s an idea that marriage is hard. No one’s perfect. As long as he’s working on it by going to a treatment center or going to therapy or whatever he may be doing. As long as he’s doing those things, you just have to stick it out. Those kinds of ideas, at least, were in my mind, and made it difficult for me to even consider the option that maybe not all marriages are this hard. Maybe not all marriages are abusive. I think that’s one idea that kept me stuck. ## I LEARN HIS LIES, GASLIGHTING & MANIPULATION ARE ABUSE **Anne:** Even if you know it’s abuse, then you’re like, “Wow, it’s abuse? Okay, we need to get him into therapy because he’s abusive because he has childhood trauma or he feels shame.” I don’t think they realize that’s not why he’s abusive, number one, and therapy will not help. Most therapists think, “Oh, I can help.” They don’t realize they’re going to get manipulated and gaslit themselves. I don’t know if it’s an ego thing, but therapists don’t tend to realize they are unable to help abusers. Because the prevailing opinion of everyone is that therapy will solve this, I work so hard to educate all women about this. So I hope the infographics help. I took many of them, and I put them in the back of *[Trauma Mama Husband Drama](https://www.amazon.com/Trauma-Husband-Drama-Blythe-M-Ed/dp/1728880351/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3GR4B5ULXYXPS&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.uChpRhvauXBZu2keDxc1Hza_VTllulBynxlM7i2DAeoOYOd26uL93GGCa9t9i7BHq0CkQaS6j_si-0ZmQflvMBKvSt-Vyd8Kcwdm7lkDeld_J4ggHFrLmPGTYgtj1FQyT77mYC7q_HYzJfdtEgRK3GNUfSuEYc2u89ZCGlbG-Zy4mpA8x6NR_fcXtXE0KVGWEE0DtVcM-JKOpj_D4Dezw1GLO3cj1ZKsJck7DFOrQuE.DDkfRreEozxRcU54XVJOWKFV5566e9YnM3iUYmDbqpU&dib_tag=se&keywords=trauma+mama+husband+drama&qid=1727463124&sprefix=trauma+mama+husband+drama%2Caps%2C116&sr=8-1 "Trauma Mama Husband Drama")*, which is my picture book for adults. And it’s also available on Amazon. It’s a picture book. So it’s also this visual representation of what it’s like to be emotionally and psychologically abused and coerced, and not realize what’s happening because of his lies. Teaching these concepts in a way that women can actually apply is my top priority. And social media is so important, because I can post those visual representations there. As you’ve been interacting with me on social media, what’s your take on why these are so helpful for victims? ## I SEEK & FIND THE TRUTH **Jenna** For me, learning the term *betrayal trauma* was incredibly validating and empowering. It gave me language for what I was experiencing—especially in moments when my husband lies about small things and I couldn’t explain why it affected me so deeply. The infographics do something similar. They capture my experience in a way I sometimes can’t put into words. They give me a simple, visual way to understand what I’m feeling and to share that understanding with others. It’s therapeutic, clear, and approachable—and the fact that they’re visually engaging makes them even easier to take in. **Anne:** Yeah, having it be cute doesn’t hurt. So the process is like, I have an idea in my head, I podcast about it. Then I draw like a pathetic stick figure. And then my amazing friend, who’s an illustrator and graphic designer, brings these to life. She’s incredible. And then she and I go back and forth through so many different iterations to make sure the concept is clear, And then I always revisit them. Maybe six months, or a year or two years later, I look at it again and I’m like, “Oh we need to alter this a little bit.” I’m always getting feedback on them and making updates. So when you say an infographic I created that I posted, it helped you realize your husband’s lies about the small things. Indicated a much bigger thing, that warms my heart. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## INFOGRAPHICS HELPED ME SEE REALITY **Jenna:** It was so easy for me to overlook the experiences I’ve gone through that were emotionally abusive, and think, he doesn’t punch me. He doesn’t hurt me physically, but [emotional abuse affects your body](/emotional-abuse-affects-your-body/ "emotional abuse affects your bod") and spirit immensely. It’s not that bad. But when I see it in the infographic, it’s so obvious. It’s apparent what I am experiencing is emotional abuse. It’s damaging, and I’m being sucked into this abuse cycle of grooming and devaluing. It just makes it so clear for me and helps me navigate my next steps to safety. I took the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop](/clarity/). The workbook that comes with the workshop had so many visuals and beautiful artwork. It captures the reality of my situation. It’s simple and easy to understand, and helps me digest my own experience. I appreciated that. **Anne:** I’m so glad to hear that. That’s awesome. I’ve taken so many trainings or workshops. And I was so confused most of the time. I always felt like, Am I doing it wrong? Is it me? And then I realized, no, it’s just not detailed. It’s unclear. It doesn’t give me a way to process it. It doesn’t give me a way to interact with it. And so just like everything else at [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/), I test everything for years, years, and years. With the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop, I first used the strategies myself to deliver my kids and myself from abuse. I wanted to make sure it wasn’t a fluke. So I duplicated that success. With other victims, we created a workshop out of it. We ran that workshop live for a few years to get feedback, to know where were victims getting stuck? What parts weren’t clear? ## THE BETRAYAL TRAUMA WORKSHOP IS INVALUABLE **Anne:** Then we created all the videos for the format. It’s now online, and those videos are incredible because it has visual representations for all these concepts to help women get it. And then I continue to tweak it, tweak it, and tweak it. I have a master’s degree in curriculum and instruction. So I’m obsessed with making sure the content we produce is clear and helpful. And that the services we provide are exactly what women need. **Jenna:** Yeah, the workshop for me was invaluable. I felt like I learned so much about specific actions I could take and specific situations. It was super helpful. **Anne:** I am so glad to hear that. I hear that every day from women, how much it helped them. If you’re listening and interested, you can learn more about [workshop for betrayal trauma](/clarity/ "The Living Free Workshop"). ## THE FRENCH FRY ANALOGY **Anne:** As Jenna and I were interacting on social media, she shared something that made me realize the French fry analogy would really help her name what was happening in her marriage. This analogy illustrates why, when a husband lies about small things, it’s often evidence that something much bigger is going on. He comes up to you and says, “You know what? I have been eating at McDonald’s too much, and it’s not healthy for me. It’s bothering me. I don’t like it, so I’m just letting you know that I’m not going to ever eat at McDonald’s again, ever. You, as the supportive wife, would be like, sounds great, honey. This is not that important. You’re like, okay, you do you. Good for you. He doesn’t say anything else about it. Three weeks later, you have to use his car for something. You get in his car, you’re fumbling around with a quarter, and it falls down in a crack. And as you’re trying to get the quarter, you find a French fry. That French fry is unmistakable. It is a McDonald’s French fry. You get your quarter out, you get the French fry out, and you go to your husband and you say, “Hey honey, I lost this quarter and when I found it, I also found this French fry.” Now if he’s a super healthy person, he might say, “I know I told you I want to stop eating at McDonald’s, but I went to McDonald’s three days ago when I had that long drive. And yeah, one of them fell down in the crack. And as far as me falling off the wagon, I feel really stupid about it. ## AN ANALOGY FOR EMOTIONAL ABUSE WHEN A HUSBAND LIES ABOUT SMALL THINGS **Anne:** This is not an abuse episode. The situation where he wanted to stop eating McDonald’s and then he fell off the wagon is not that big of a deal. He wasn’t trying to deceive you. He wasn’t trying to hide it from you on purpose. When you asked him about the French fry, he readily admitted he fell off the wagon and went to McDonald’s. Now let’s pretend the whole scenario is the same, but instead, when you find the French fry. And you take it to him and say, I found this French fry. He says. “I don’t know what you’re talking about, I don’t see a French fry.” And then you’re like, “This French fry, this one right here. I found this in the car.” And he’s like, “Well, one of the kids must’ve got in my car and dropped it in there.” With that same scenario, if he starts to gaslight he lies, he’s not a healthy person. Even if this is just about a French fry. Deceit, gaslighting, and turning the tables would be psychological and emotional abuse. And to take it even further, if he said, “Why are you going through my car? Why are you trying to check up on me?” Maybe even, “I never told you I wasn’t going to eat at McDonald’s. Of course, I’m going to eat at McDonald’s. Why would you even think I wouldn’t eat at McDonald’s?” So there’s the French fry analogy. How has this analogy helped you? ## EXPERIENCING YOUR HUSBAND’S LIES **Jenna:** I think it captured what was happening for me. Like you said, they were small, or they felt small at the time. When my husband lies about small things, it didn’t immediately register as something serious. Back then, I didn’t even know he was using exploitative material. He would make up stories about hobbies or abilities he actually did not have. Then, to me, he would deny he had made up those stories. So I would just let his lies go. Now I realize how big they were. But I can look back and see the pattern of different French fries I found. ## ANNE’S EXAMPLE: WHEN A HUSBAND LIES ABOUT SMALL THINGS **Anne:** My ex did that too. There was this period where we were at dinner parties or social events. I would look out of the corner of my eye. And he was like doing these Tai Chi moves. And he would talk to people about how much he loved Tai Chi. Like he was some kind of Tai Chi master. So after a while, I was very curious. So I said, “How do you know so much about Tai Chi?” And he kind of avoided answering me. And so I got real specific and I said, “Did you take Tai Chi in college?” “No.” “Did you take it in high school?” “No.” “Did you take it at a gym?” “No.” “Have you read a book about Tai Chi?” “No.” “Have you ever taken a Tai Chi class anywhere in any way, shape or form?” “No.” “Have you done Tai Chi in a park?” You know how there’s like those old people in a park? “Have you done Tai Chi in a park?” “No.” “Maybe on vacation?” “No.” Ah, I was dumbfounded. He lies, so I don’t know why he didn’t just lie, but in this moment, for some reason, he wanted me to know. I still don’t know why he wanted me to know, because he had no problem with lies when he wanted to. And finally, and maybe this was a lie too. He said, “I read an article about at once.” Like one article is what he said. And he lies about that? Maybe he never even read one article about it. It was crazy. So, instead of just saying, I read an article about Tai Chi and I’m interested in maybe taking a class sometime. No, one article apparently made him an expert in Tai Chi. ## WHEN YOUR HUSBAND LIES ABOUT SMALL THINGS, IT’S NOT HARMLESS **Anne:** So if he lies about traveling to London or Tai Chi or French fries, it indicates something serious is happening, but it’s so hard for us to recognize that. **Jenna:** For me, I feel like I didn’t have proof. Everything inside me said something here is wrong. It is not normal that my husband lies about small things, like going on a trip to London. My brain would say he’s not using exploitative material, because he’d said he wasn’t using it. I can think of way worse things he could be doing. Maybe this isn’t that big of a deal. I think it was easy to rationalize it, to say, this isn’t necessarily a good thing, but because he’s told me he loved me, it’s still progress. Back to that upward trajectory graph in the infographic. **Anne:** Yeah, totally. After I was separated, I was talking to my dentist. And I said, “I didn’t realize it was abuse. I mean, he had stopped screaming and yelling in my face. And I saw that as progress.” And my dentist was like, “What? What are you talking about?” I know my dentist well. I went to high school with him. He just looked at me and he was like, “A good person would never do that”. Like ever. My dentist couldn’t wrap his head around the fact that victims are manipulated to think he lies about this one thing. He realized he couldn’t scream and yell in your face. So then he lies to you. That’s not progress. But now taking a step back, it’s a gut punch to realize that he wasn’t changing and things weren’t improving. That upward trajectory wasn’t happening. He was just changing up his abuse tactics. ## I STRUGGLE TO CREATE SAFETY **Jenna:** When I look back on my experience, I thought these little breadcrumbs were big improvements. The little things he would do I would see as progress. I imagined myself standing outside my house in a hurricane, like lightning, rain and crazy wind. My hair is flying everywhere and debris flying all around me. I imagine the storm around me being the abuse I experienced. Then I imagine putting my hands over my head, just a little bit as progress. That’s a small improvement from not having any protection, but it’s something. The only thing that created safety for me was walking to my house, stepping inside, and closing the door. I could look out the window and see the crazy storm that was going on outside, but it wasn’t hurting me anymore. I think that’s the only time I could see the abuse for what it was. Because in the moment, I felt that at least my hands are over my head, I’ve got a little protection. I didn’t understand how much danger I was in until I was safe. And I could look back and see how dangerous it actually was. **Anne:** Oh, I like that analogy. I wonder if part of it is the adrenaline of the chaos. Like you might not realize how cold you are until you get inside. And then you’re like, “Oh, I was really cold and miserable.” But in the moment, you’re just trying to make it down the mountain or survive. ## ONE DAY AT A TIME SURVIVAL MODE **Anne:** Which is why people call abuse victims survivors. Because every day they’re surviving in this mental, emotional, and psychological life and death situation. Even if they’re still in the abuse, because they’re surviving one day at a time. We need to ask ourselves. “Wait a minute, do I just want to be in survival mode every day? Do I want to be in that type of chaos all the time? Or do I want to actually be safe and rest in my warm house with a cup of hot chocolate?” And so to help us make our way to safety, that French fry analogy comes in handy especially when a husband lies about small things. Because if something happens, we can think to ourselves, “Okay, if this were just about a French fry, would it still be severe and intense, emotional and psychological abuse?” If someone is willing to completely deny, he lies, gaslights, and blame shifts about a french fry, which is not that big of a deal. That’s a big warning sign that they are emotionally and psychologically dangerous. I want all the listeners to consider things that you may have thought, that’s not that big of a deal. When he lies and denies you had a conversation about changing the oil or picking up milk from the store. Not only [is lying emotional abuse](/is-lying-emotional-abuse/) in and of itself, it’s only the part of the iceberg you can see, and there is a way, way more beneath the surface that you can’t see. ## SOCIAL MEDIA’S ROLE IN FIGURING OUT EMOTIONAL ABUSE WHEN A HUSBAND LIES ABOUT SMALL THINGS **Anne:** Why has following [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/group/) on social media, interacting with me and engaging with other women, been useful to you? **Jenna:** I love listening to the podcast, and getting bite-sized pieces of information. I can get on, take in one small topic, a quote, or a thought, and sit with it. It gives me something to think about and helps me understand emotional abuse in a way I can actually process, especially when my husband lies about small things. **Anne:** That reminds me of one of my good friends in real life. We were friends long before I started podcasting. She’d been in several abusive relationships, but for me, talking to her was always awkward. Because for her, it felt safer to pull away from the pain and not consider it could be emotional abuse. So as we would talk, I would think, “I have the perfect podcast about this. I should tell her about it.” But I would hold back as much as possible. Our sons were on the same baseball team. So we’d sit together every week and chat while our sons played baseball. And at one game, she told me about her ex, and I was thinking, “Oh, this is abuse. How can I help her understand, since she’s not interested in listening to the podcast?” She loves Instagram. So I said, “Hey, I’m on Instagram. Let’s follow each other.” And the next week at the baseball game, she was like, “Oh, I’ve been learning all this stuff. I realized my ex is abusive.” And in my head I’m thinking, I know. I’ve been trying to tell you that. I was actually a little frustrated and confused, apparently she wasn’t interested in listening to me to educate her about abuse in person. ## I START HEALING WITH DAILY INSTAGRAMS & THE BTR WORKSHOP **Anne:** When it came down to it, the only thing that mattered to me was that she started opening up to the idea that these men she had been dating were abusive. Then I saw the beauty of it. Because she’s not into podcasts. For her, the little bite-size pieces helped her realize what’s happening when her husband lies about small things. Some women have a hard time leaning into the pain, because that doesn’t feel safe. And so just a little bit at a time is helpful to them. Every woman is different. On social media, we’re all equal. We can interact with other women who’ve been through it. Thanks for sharing that story about how my post on Instagram helped you. What else has helped you connect with yourself? **Jenna** The [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) was super helpful. I found them healing and so sacred. They helped me connect with myself and visualize stepping into safety, when that’s scary for me in real life. It helped me visualize myself becoming empowered and accepting that I don’t know what’s going to happen. Also loving myself. There’s one where you revisit your younger self and express love. I felt like it was so healing and powerful for me. I love and value the meditations. **Anne:** Yeah, I remember you messaged me right after you did the, “I am just right” meditation. And you said you were crying. I assume those were good tears? **Jenna:** Oh, definitely. Yeah, it was the healing tears, where you just had that moment. You feel love for this part of yourself that needed that love. I just loved it. **Anne:** I wanted to do those [betrayal meditations](https://www.btr.org/free-betrayal-trauma-meditation/ "betrayal meditations") so that women could process their emotions differently. Which is similar with the infographics and metaphors. ## ABUSE EDUCATION IS AVAILABLE THROUGH THE BTR PODCAST & WORKSHOP **Anne:** Different types of content or services speak to women in different ways. I’m proud of Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Through [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/), we’ve created so many avenues for women to get educated about abuse. This podcast is obviously the best way to educate yourself about abuse. Because this podcast is mostly victim stories. And hearing other women’s experience. And realizing. Holy cow, my husband lies about small things, too. It’s so validating. Then having those visual representations of the concepts I teach on the podcast with the infographics on Instagram and on our social media channels is so helpful. The interaction is what makes social media so powerful. And Betrayal Trauma Recovery is the only organization that teaches the strategies of how to get to safety in such a detailed and practical way in [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/ "The Living Free"). And then, of course, we never leave any woman alone in this journey. To get help implementing the strategies you learned in the workshop, to get help actually applying the concepts you learn on social media or through this podcast. We have online group sessions with coaches that I personally trained. In our [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/ "Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions"), women share from the heart and get real-time face-to-face feedback from our coaches and other women in the group session. Our team is incredible. We are here for you! ## OUR WHOLE GOAL IS TO HELP WOMEN UNDERSTAND ABUSE **Anne:** We really care, and it’s my goal and the goal of the whole Betrayal Trauma Recovery team to help every woman understand this. We don’t want anyone trapped in abuse. Like you, Jenna, you’ve been able to apply this stuff and get shelter from the storm. I’m so honored to hear your story. Thank you so much for coming on today. **Jenna:** Anne, thanks for all you’ve done for creating Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I love this community. It’s been so helpful to me. I’m really grateful. > This episode makes sense on it’s own. However, if you want to hear more episodes with Jenna: > 1: *[Is It Wrong To Check Your Husband’s Phone? – Jenna’s Experience](https://www.btr.org/is-it-wrong-to-check-your-husbands-phone/)* > 2: *[The Best Way To Explain Betrayal Trauma](/best-way-to-explain-betrayal-trauma/)* > 3: [*How To Recognize Victim Blaming – Jenna’s Story*](https://www.btr.org/divorcing-a-narcissist/) > 4: *When He Lies About Small Things, This Brilliant Analogy Offers Insight* (THIS EPISODE) **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast, Related Posts **Tags:** emotional abuse, gaslighting --- ### [What Is the Emotional Cycle of Abuse?](https://www.btr.org/emotional-cycle-of-abuse/) **Published:** March 31, 2026 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Recognize the emotional cycle of abuse, hidden patterns of control, and steps toward emotional safety. **Content:** Do you feel like you’re stuck in a cycle in your marriage, where every few days, weeks, or months there’s an eruption of confusion and conflict? And no matter how well you try communicate, manage stress, or meet your husband’s needs, the issues don’t resolve. If so, the issue may not be that this is random or “normal” conflict, it’s a repeating **emotional cycle of abuse.** In this episode of the **Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast**, you’ll hear a woman’s story of how this cycle played out in her marriage. She was led to believe that more patience, prayer, and better communication could fix her marriage, but it never did. This conversation exposes the emotional cycle of abuse and helps women find a path to emotional safety. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take our[ free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ## TRANSCRIPT: WHAT IS THE EMOTIONAL CYCLE OF ABUSE? **Anne:** If you’ve ever wondered why your marriage feels like a constant loop, moments of peace, followed by tension, followed by something that breaks you. You’re not imagining it. You’ve probably searched for answers. You’ve likely been told it’s a communication issue or somebody has unmet needs, or that you just need to try harder, be calmer, or maybe even pray more. But none of that explains why it always circles back to pain and unresolved issues. What you’re living through isn’t chaos. It’s a pattern, a deliberate repeating cycle, And when you finally see that pattern for what it is, an emotional cycle of abuse, that’s what today’s episode is about. Today I have a member of our community. We’re gonna call her Jamie. Here’s a part of her interview. **Jamie:** I just knew I can’t do this. There’s a concept called Pain for Love, it was the first time I heard anything that sounded close to what I was experiencing. It was that you’re emotionally at a zero, then they would act out. And then you start getting angry and explode, and they realize, oh, I have got to calm you down. **Anne:** So the therapist called this Pain for Love, but didn’t explain it as a cycle of emotional abuse. And that’s what we’re going to talk about today. Welcome, Jamie. **Jamie:** Hi, thank you, Anne. It’s so nice to be here. Thank you. ## UNDERSTANDING THE EARLY SIGNS OF AN EMOTIONAL CYCLE OF ABUSE **Anne:** Let’s start at the beginning. **Jamie:** At the beginning of my relationship, it was amazing. I met my husband through a mutual friend from high school. In phone conversations with her over a couple of years. I knew about him. He knew about me. So when we met in person, it was so much fun. I felt so good. He seemed to have a lot of energy, I kid you not. Two weeks after we met, he took me with a big friend group to Cancun. And he would buy me things. He seemed interested in the same things. We went to a lot of Christian concerts, and he tagged along with us. It was so much fun, and we enjoyed it. I can say that when we got married, the light switch just flipped and a lot of that stuff stopped. But looking back now. I can see red flags, that I didn’t know or understand. **Anne:** When we’re in it, it’s not a red flag. It’s more of a hiccup. It’s not like someone’s screaming, and yelling is not bad. No, it’s not bad. And there’s nothing that we did or didn’t do back then, because even with a good person, like a genuinely good person, you might have a hiccup. They might be some kind of fluke thing that happens. You can’t tell if it’s a fluke or not until you’ve known him for a couple of years. **Jamie:** That’s right. It’s a pattern of behavior, and the pattern of behavior only comes with time. For me, we were young, so I expected natural time and maturity to happen, and that those little hiccups wouldn’t be what they turned out to be. ## WHEN AFFECTION TURNS INTO A CONTROL TACTIC **Anne:** Right, growing together. **Jamie:** Yeah. And that never happened at all. **Anne:** You’re processing it the best way possible. So, let’s talk about things that you noticed, but maybe didn’t process as red flags. Did you ever notice something was off? Talk about how you defined it at that time, not knowing that you were dealing with the emotional cycle of abuse. **Jamie:** One of the incidents that happened, not someone I was in a relationship with, but just dating to go out and date. He ended up holding me against my will for three days. **Anne:** Oh, yikes. **Jamie:** That was a year and a half before. I had been in therapy. I was in a good place when I met my husband. So three months into dating my husband, we decided to exclusively date. The only thing I noticed was the F-bomb. And my husband used that in conversational speak. I don’t and never have, but he was, and I was like, okay, I don’t want him to think this is him because I’m having a reaction to that. So I actually shared with him what had happened to me. I was vulnerable and shared this traumatic event with him. And I said, “Hey, when you’re using that, I’m having a reaction. I feel it. It’s probably the last little bit that I’ve got to work through.” And then he turned around and used the F-bomb over and over. He weaponized it, then told me, “Well, you are the one who has the issue with that. I’m not changing the way I use anything. You are the one who has the problem with that. So that’s your problem to work through, not mine.” ## HE WEAPONIZED MY VULNERABILITY **Jamie:** And at the time I was like, oh, I guess he’s not wrong. At the time, I didn’t think it was that big of a deal because I was like, maybe he’s not using it more. Maybe I’m just more perceptive of it, you know? But no, he absolutely weaponized it and did it over and over and over. At the same time, I would say to him like, these are actual examples. “I really love it when you open the door for me. That makes me feel good and special. Thank you for doing that.” And he quit. He withheld it. That one he never really had a reason for or excuse other than, well, I’m just not that type of guy to do that. **Anne:** So, this was after you thanked him, so he opened the door for you. Then after you thanked him, he was like, because she appreciates this and it means something to her, I’m for sure not gonna do it. **Jamie:** I rationalized that away as, I guess that’s not that big of a deal if he doesn’t open the door. It’s kind of weird that I told him that I liked it. Now he is not doing it. But of course at the time I just, okay, no big deal. And didn’t think that type of behavior would continue, but it did. In little ways and in big ways, and still to this day, it is that way. So he withholds anything that I tell him is good. He continues repeatedly to do something that I tell him is bad, and then blames me for the reaction of pain, hurt, and anger. After that for a really long time. ## HOW AN EMOTIONAL CYCLE OF ABUSE KEEPS WOMEN OFF BALANCE **Jamie:** He’s so good at making me believe that. I did believe it was my fault a long time. I thought I was in a good place, but maybe I’m not. And he is a healthcare professional, so I trusted him. He’s gotta know what he is talking about in some things. I didn’t see it as manipulation at the time. **Anne:** Each thing that would happen felt isolated. That why [betrayal trauma in marriage](/betrayal-trauma-in-marriage/) is so difficult. The F word thing, that’s just about the F word, the door thing. It’s just about doors. **Jamie:** That’s exactly right. And still to this day, that’s exactly how he wants to categorize it. We have three kids together. A boy, girl, boy, ages 20, 18, and 15, and the 20-year-old was a baby and in a stroller. I knew something is wrong and I couldn’t put my finger on it, so I found a counselor. I remember going into his office and he was like, okay, y’all hug each other. **Anne:** Wondering [will couples counseling work](/will-couples-counseling-work/)? So this was couple counseling. **Jamie:** This couples counseling. And so I gave him a hug and he is like, well, I usually see the problem if there’s a problem giving a hug, but y’all don’t seem to have a problem giving a hug. I’m not sure what’s going on here. And then he would give us like little homework assignments. And I would have this hope that maybe if he does the homework assignment and I do my homework assignment, that we would come back and things would get better. ## THE ROLE OF COUNSELING AND CHURCH ADVICE IN CONTINUING THE EMOTIONAL CYCLE OF ABUSE **Jamie:** That was a waste of time and money. It ended up hurting me. Because I had expectations that maybe this could help us, and I’m like, what is going on? He told me he doesn’t wanna have sex with me, and it was my fault. I felt, if I left it up to him, we would have sex a handful of times a year, birthdays and Mother’s Day. All three of our kids were conceived on my birthday or his birthday. I had been trying to engage with him, and I would get nothing from him, blank stare acting, dismissive, silence. He’s pursed his lips so much now over these years that he has wrinkled mad and angry pursed lips, and just sitting there sulking in silence. And then I discovered some pornography, and I was devastated and in a really bad, bad place. So I reached out to the pastor and I’m like, we need help. And the pastor ends up telling me that I am not letting him lead. I’m like, “I am letting him lead.” And he goes, “You just don’t like where he’s leading.” And he ends up telling me that I am not an obedient wife, that I need to forgive, love, and serve, and that I’m not being obedient. **Anne:** Obedient my eye. You were totally loving and serving this man. **Jamie:** Yes, in every way possible. And then of course, this whole time he’s so good at spinning it to make it feel like my fault. At those times, I believed it. And like, okay, we need help, and you need to be more obedient. I left completely devastated and had to leave the church. Because I could not return to that pastor until he left. ## EMBOLDENED HUSBAND LASHES OUT, CALLING ME A LIAR **Jamie:** I was so brokenhearted and devastated, and my husband was like, “See, I told you you’re the problem. It’s not me.” And things went downhill from there. **Anne:** When they are enabled, they go downhill pretty quickly, ’cause they’re given permission to be worse. I wanna point out the stonewalling was a lie. The blaming you was a lie. Even when he goes into the pastor and says that stuff about you, that’s a lie. So it’s lie after lie after lie, but you don’t know that it’s a lie. **Jamie:** Most of the time his lying was under the radar, but there were times where I picked up on it. There were times where I’m like, oh, I just caught him and a lie. That’s when he would lash out at me and say, “You are calling me a liar. I don’t know why you’re with me.” **Anne:** I’m smiling a little bit. ‘Cause in the [Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/), that’s one of the strategies I teach. If they try to manipulate you through saying something like, “You just think I’m a liar.” Say, “Oh, I never thought about that.” ‘Cause the reason they do that to us is a manipulation tactic. So we’re like, “No, I don’t think you’re a liar.” So that we’ll back down. And sometimes they’re saying the exact thing that if we just agreed as a Christian, that “agree with thine adversary quickly.” I’ve found that a simple, “Hmm, maybe I do think you’re a liar. I need to think about that more.” Strategy removes you from manipulation. ## EMOTIONAL ABUSE IS MENTIONED IN ADDICTION MODELS **Jamie:** You’re right, exactly right. And I felt like, I didn’t say that, you said that, but I am pointing out to you right here that you lied. That definitely is a tactic that worked a lot on me for a while. **Anne:** It works on all of us. **Jamie:** I finally Googled emotional abuse. And the first things that came up were the addiction models. And I’m like, oh yeah, emotional abuse and the addiction model, like pornography addiction, sex addiction. **Anne:** Sorry. I’m actually shocked that they talk about the emotional cycle of abuse, because they usually avoid saying it’s abuse. **Jamie:** I absorbed that like a sponge. I ordered him the book and the workbook, and I did a phone group, and many videos about pornography addiction. I did find a counselor through that women’s group online, and we started doing counseling with him. He never mentioned anything of it being abuse, ever. **Anne:** This is still couple therapy. **Jamie:** It was supposed to be, because we were going along the lines of that workbook, following those guidelines where you do dailies with your spouse, and after two times I’m like, I can’t do this. I didn’t know I was seeking safety for myself. I just knew I can’t do this. We shared a lot of the material we were learning. ## THE “PAIN FOR LOVE” PATTERN **Jamie:** And there’s a concept called Pain for Love. And I just went, oh my goodness, Pain for Love. And the concept there I attached to, because it was the first time I heard or read anything that sounded anything close to what I was experiencing. It was that you’re emotionally at a zero, so you’re fine. But then they would act out, act out, act out, and then you start getting angrier. And then kind of explode and they realize, oh, I have got to calm you down and I’ve got to bring you back down. So he would show up to love me and bring me down, and then return to being his normal self. **Anne:** Wait, wait, hold on a minute. This is the first time I’ve heard of this concept before, but you’re essentially describing domestic abuse where he grooms, deescalates the victim so he can maintain control, coercive control. **Jamie:** Yes. **Anne:** Then as soon as he feels like he can relax because you’re under his control, then you can just go back to being miserable. **Jamie:** Yes, when I heard Pain for Love, I felt like you have to get to this big level of pain before they’ll show up and love you, and they’ll love you for a little bit, and then leave and go back to causing pain. **Anne:** I’m so shocked that someone would say this to a woman and not realize how she’s gonna interpret it. I don’t know how he intended it, but the way we interpret it is, this is how I get love. Is that how you were interpreting it? **Jamie:** Yes ## FINDING CLARITY AFTER NAMING THE EMOTIONAL CYCLE OF ABUSE **Jamie:** The concept is that I would have to get in so much pain, and then he would realize, I need to love my wife for a couple of days. Then rinse and repeat. Yeah, I believed until one of the ladies from my group suggested you and your podcast. I had the podcast on my phone, and then one day I’m like, I’m gonna listen to all this. And my mind was blown. Now, I’ve listened to every one of your podcasts. It was eye-opening. No one had ever told me to seek safety for myself before. Everybody puts the emphasis on him. We gotta help him, love him, encourage him, and we’ve gotta give him the space to do what he needs to do all while hurting me, and nobody ever addressed that, ever. And then I started my [Betrayal Trauma Recovery group sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/). I’ve been in now for about 16 months. Only through what I’ve learned through BTR do I know that I’ve been doing a lot of safety seeking behaviors and that it was the [best way to get yourself back after emotional abuse](https://www.btr.org/how-to-get-back-to-yourself-after-emotional-abuse/). **Anne:** Yeah, the whole time you are doing the right thing. You are going for help, but it’s insane how no one we ask for help, except for BTR, knows it’s abuse or defines it that way. You found that emotional abuse article that led you to sex addiction therapy, but then they didn’t continue to talk about that. They didn’t say, oh, you found us through emotional abuse, because this is the emotional cycle of abuse. And if you’re emotionally abused, we need to make sure that you’re safe. That that doesn’t even enter the conversation is so crazy to me. **Jamie:** Yeah, me too. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## FINDING OUT ABOUT AN AFFAIR **Jamie:** I came across you, and my life is now completely changing in the direction it needs to change. But only because of what I’ve learned here. I have started seeking safety for myself, and it’s changed everything. And seeking safety. I now feel more confident. When we were dating, he mirrored me and love bombed me. He wasn’t being his genuine, authentic self. He was doing whatever he needed to do to convince me he was the guy for me. Now I look back and I can see there was a lot of abuse and [betrayal trauma in my marriage](https://www.btr.org/betrayal-trauma-in-marriage/). **Anne:** It’s been a lie, just an emotional cycle of abuse. Once you see it, you can’t unsee it. **Jamie:** Yes, I wish I’d known this a long time ago, but I know it now. My youngest son wanted to go shopping. My husband had told me he was going to go into the business earlier that morning. We own our own healthcare business together. My son says, Hey, I forgot something in dad’s car. Can we go get it? We stopped by, he had locked the doors and taken my key off my key chain. My son called him, he answered the phone, but then put us on mute for like two minutes, and then two minutes later he’s like, hello, hello, can you hear me? So he comes and opens the door, and we went in. We heard the back door open. My son headed back there, and I immediately knew then that my husband was having an affair. My first thought was to protect my son, so I just said, Hey, let’s go. We are leaving. We get in the car and my son says, “Mom, aren’t you gonna confront Dad?” ## SEEKING SAFETY FOR MYSELF **Jamie:** No, this is not for you to be a witness of, and I care about you and we’re gonna go. And he just didn’t understand why I didn’t wanna confront Dad. About a month later, he walks into my room and says, “We need to talk about divorce.” About a month after that, he hands me a handwritten piece of paper with a settlement offer. The bare, bare minimum and wants to walk away with our business free and clear without giving me a dime. He thinks that’s fair. He was like, I think this is fair. If I didn’t think it was fair, I wouldn’t have written it and handed it to you. So during this time, I’m still in groups. I’m still getting support. And there’s [financial abuse in the divorce](https://www.btr.org/financial-abuse-in-divorce/) process. I had an appointment with an attorney, and the attorney tells me, “Oh, he filed.” Which I didn’t think he would do, but makes sense if he’s trying to start a new life with his affair partner. He’s still in the house, but in the next day or two, we’ll have a temporary hearing for him to move out. I put boundaries into place that I’ve learned from the coaches at BTR from your podcast. From the [Living Free Workshop](/livingfree), I’ve learned so much, and it has totally changed my life. And although I wouldn’t wish this on anybody, because this is so hard. I’m grateful and thankful that I have the tools I need to move on and get safe for my kids. I feel like since I’ve learned everything through BTR, I’ve been on a fast track to healing. I haven’t had that. BTR has been a godsend to me to escape the emotional cycle of abuse. ## FEELING THANKFUL FOR A CHANGED LIFE **Jamie:** He isolated me 22 years ago in the middle of the country, and BTR has reached me and changed my life and my kids’ lives. I’m so thankful, I’m thankful for the coaches. I’m thankful you have the courage to turn this around and be a light for other women. I want all of them to know, like you say in the podcast, you didn’t want another woman on earth to go through this. And I don’t either. I know that I have to walk through some pretty big storms and fire before I’m on the other side, but I’m here and it’s what I’ve been waiting for. I’ve learned how to handle those trauma responses better that I was trying to do with the other therapist, and it never worked ’cause it wasn’t addressing the real issue. It’s changed my life. **Anne:** I’m so grateful to hear that. ’cause I have, of course, my bad days. It’s really hard to do this work, as you can imagine. I’m so sorry about what you’re going through. And then also so grateful that what we’re doing is making a difference. It’s drastically different than anything you’ll get from a therapist or a couple therapists or a sex addiction therapist, because we can see what’s really happening. And it’s crazy to me that like no matter how hard a woman tries. No matter how smart she is, and no matter how resourced she is, if she can’t see what is really happening, no one else will help her. It’s so heartbreaking to me. **Jamie:** Right. For so many years, I was trying to tell my truth. I said it, and nobody got it. And then I come to BTR and this is the truth. ## ON THE FAST TRACK TO HEALING **Jamie:** This is what’s going on, and it’s changed my life and my family. I say I’ve been with the group for 16 months and listening to the podcast for almost two years. That two years compared to 25, that feels like fast track. I think I got the tools I needed to handle what was coming, because I have always said, God knows what we need well before we know we need it. And I think he put this into place to help me, ’cause I feel like I’m not alone. There are so many other women going through this, I’ve have been through it. I’ve listened to their stories, virtually held their hand and given them hugs. The coaching has been amazing, and it has changed my life. I couldn’t be more thankful. I know that’s a God thing. **Anne:** I think so too. I feel like every day we hear about miracles of someone who says a prayer or something and finds us randomly somehow. It’s not that we’re not here, it’s not that we don’t have the tools to help women, it’s that there are so many other options for therapists or influencers or whoever else, and so finding the right information is so difficult to find a way out of the emotional cycle of abuse. I’m grateful to all the listeners who helped. Other women find out about it. I’m trying to get Living Free into every woman’s hands. ’cause at least for me, if I had it at the beginning or if you would’ve had it 25 years ago, can you imagine the difference that would’ve made? **Jamie:** Oh yes, very helpful. Always everything is geared towards it’s a we problem. Or he has this problem that we have to help him through. ## GETTING OVER THE SHOCK OF A CALCULATING HUSBAND **Jamie:** Never addressing my pain, ever. And now, like you said, I can’t unsee it. **Anne:** It’s just so calculated. It’s actually really shocking if you’re listening right now and you’re like, is my husband like that? Is this an emotional cycle of abuse? Living Free will help you see what he’s like, and then you can make the decisions based on that. **Jamie:** Absolutely, that’s exactly what happened with me too. That helped me see exactly. And it helps me process moving forward, and especially the whirlwind I’m going through right now. What to expect, because I now can see him for what he is. And my husband is also one of those who wants to place intent over impact. **Anne:** It was their intent to do whatever they wanted without worrying about the consequences. **Jamie:** That’s right. **Anne:** I actually think intent matters more, and this is the reason. Someone who really genuinely cares about you, who doesn’t wanna hurt you, they’re thinking about you. And maybe they get a gift, and it’s a little offensive, and they’re like, I’m so sorry. I was trying so hard. And I missed the boat. But their intent was good. With these guys, they’re like, well, I bought you a present, didn’t I? Like, why am I not getting points? They don’t actually care about us. **Jamie:** That’s exactly right. There is no thought of me. ## FINDING A SAFE PLACE **Anne:** It’s like my sweet 12-year-old, I love him, and he is gigantic. His arms and legs are so big. If he thinks about where he’s going, he’s not gonna hurt anybody, because he’ll be aware of where his arm is, and it’s not gonna whack someone accidentally. But if he’s just clumping through the house, not thinking about anybody, someone will get hurt. So if you are not aware of the people around you and what you’re doing, you’re going to hurt people and. If you don’t think about other people at all, that is intent. And it is the basis of the emotional cycle of abuse. **Jamie:** I agree. **Anne:** Thank you so much, and thank you for your support. It’s because of clients like you and other women who listen to the podcast that we can continue to do this work. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. **Jamie:** Thank you. The work you’ve done and are doing is a godsend. BTR is a safe place, and they’ll take you where you are, how you are. At the moment, they’ll give you tools, you can use them, and be safe. Just having a safe place is priceless. It is so worth it. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast **Tags:** How Do I Set Boundaries --- ### [How "Prayer for My Husband" Became the New Gaslighting](https://www.btr.org/prayer-for-my-husband/) **Published:** April 7, 2026 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** How prayer for my husband kept my focus on waiting, not on what was happening. **Content:** You’re not wrong for wanting things to be better. If you’re searching for a ‘prayer for my husband’ because you’ve been told that if you have enough faith, you can change him, you’re not alone. But here’s what most people don’t tell you… ## **5 THINGS TO CONSIDER AS YOU FIND A ‘PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND’ TO HELP HIM CHANGE** **1. You’re Faith is Enough** There’s something many faithful women are never told.The problem isn’t your faith. The problem is how your strong and incredible faith is being used, by people or systems, to confuse you instead of help you feel the love God has for you. **2. Prayer is Always Good, and God Loves YOU** God hears your prayers. He wants YOU to be emotionally safe and have a peaceful home. He may be leading you to see that this might not be possible if your husband is lying and refusing to follow the principles if he’s only pretending to believe. **3. The Harmful Message Behind “Pray Harder”** When spiritual leaders or loved ones say, *“Just have more faith”* or *“You’re not a victim, you’re a co-creator”*, it’s **spiritual bypass**. It minimizes real harm and leaves you powerless. The interview below will cover why this is so harmful. **4. You’re allowed to be angry.** Your anger about your husband’s mistreatment of you isn’t a lack of faith. It’s likely God’s way of warning you of danger. **5. God Hasn’t Abandoned You** If you feel like God isn’t answering your prayers for your husband to change, it might be because your husband doesn’t want to change, but he’s lying to you about it. That means he’s lying to God too. Your husband may be blocking you from feeling God’s love for YOU. If you have heard this kind of messaging and need help getting out of the fog, [my workshop will help you determine if you’re husband is lying](https://www.btr.org/clarity/) about his faith in God to keep you from knowing his true intentions. ## “THE MORE I PRAY THE WORSE MY HUSBAND GETS” For many women, it might feel like “the more I pray the worse my husband gets.” If you’re feeling this way, here are 8 things to consider. ### 1. IF YOUR PRAYERS AREN’T BEING ANSWERED, MAYBE THEY ARE BEING ANSWERED In the silent moments of prayer, many victims of emotional abuse question, “Does God even care about me?” or “Why won’t He answer my prayers?” It’s a painful place to be, feeling as if divine help is just out of reach. However, expressing raw, honest emotions through prayer, including anger, can be a powerful way to stay spiritually connected and grounded in your reality. If you’re husband is getting worse, consider that perhaps God is SHOWING you your husband’s true character. Perhaps God wants you to see who your husband really is, so you can make decisions that will lead to your emotional safety. [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop teaches women strategies to SEE the truth of her husband’s character. ](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) ### 2. TELLING A VICTIM OF EMOTIONAL ABUSE THAT PRAYER ALONE CAN CHANGE HER HUSBAND IS VICTIM BLAMING Victims often hear clergy or friends say things that aren’t helpful. Telling a victim of abuse that prayer can change her abuser, is so wrong, that’s why it’s so important to [recognize victim blaming](https://www.btr.org/how-to-recognize-victim-blaming/). If a victim hears this, she may feel like it’s her fault she’s emotionally abused by her husband. Nothing is farther from the truth. Consider that God may be trying to tell you that there’s nothing you can do about his character if you’re praying and feeling like God isn’t answering. ### 3. GOD DOESN’T WANT YOU TO RECONCILE WITH WICKEDNESS Reconciliation with an emotionally abusive person isn’t safe for you emotionally. Throughout scripture, God continually asks the righteous to separate themselves from wickedness. If you feel like, “the more I pray, the worse my husband gets,” consider studying these concepts in scripture: deliverance, separation from wickedness, and departing from wickedness. What do the scriptures say the righteous should do when they encounter evil? ### 4. PRAYING THAT YOU CAN FORGIVE MIGHT MEAN SOMETHING DIFFERENT THAN YOU THINK In the scriptures, there are multiple times where the word forgiveness is paired with the concept of debt. Matthew 6:12 – *forgive your debtors.* If your husband owes you fidelity, love, and loyalty, what happens if you forgive him of that debt to you? That would enable you to move away from him (not closer). Consider the debt your husband owes you, and how forgiving him of any debt will help you create distance between yourself and the harm he causes in your life. ### 5. TRY PRAYING FOR YOURSELF Shift the focus of your prayers from your husband to yourself. Ask for strength, courage, and clarity. This self-focused prayer can empower you to make decisions that are right for you and your children. We’ve also been commanded to pray for our enemies and those who despitefully use us, but scriptures admonishing us to do that don’t ask us to be in proximity to our enemies or subject ourselves to those who despitefully use us. ### 6. PRAY FOR EMOTIONAL SAFETY Pray for the emotional safety. To be emotionally safe means to exist in an environment where one feels supported, understood, and accepted without fear. If someone is lying to you, it’s not an emotionally safe situation. Trust and respect are necessary for emotional safety. If your husband lies to you, consider how limiting your exposure to his lies could help you. ### 7. PRAY TO BE SHOWN CORRECT ANT TRUE INFORMATION Many women who are being emotionally abused by their husband are unaware of what’s going on because they haven’t been educated about abuse. To paraphrase Hosea 4:6 – *My daughters are destroyed for lack of knowledge.* Clergy and therapists are sadly not aware of how to assess for emotional abuse and generally give bad counsel to women with emotionally abusive husbands. [The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast](https://www.btr.org/podcast/) is a great way to learn about what an emotionally abusive husband looks and sounds like, so you have the right information. ### 8. PRAY TO BE LED TO THE RIGHT SUPPORT Feeling abandoned by God can make life seem impossibly dark. It’s easy to feel as though the suffering will never end. You’re not alone. His emotional abuse has isolated you, but reaching out for support can bring light back into your life. Seeking support is vital for healing. Pray for guidance to find the right people and resources that can help you on your journey. Whether it’s a support group, therapist, or community resource, the right support can make all the difference. Our [online support group for victims of betrayal](/group/ "Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group") meet daily in every single time zone to provide the community, validation, and compassion that victims need. You deserve peace. That’s why the Savior came – to deliver us from evil and bring us peace. ## TRANSCRIPT: WHEN PRAYING FOR MY HUSBAND ISN’T WORKING **Anne:** We have a member of our community on today’s podcast. Her name is Tracy, and she is a passionate advocate for betrayed wives. Discovering her husband’s addiction set her on a course of education about [betrayal trauma](/best-support-for-betrayal-trauma/), abuse, spirituality, and healing. Tracy is a devoted mother of four children, a compassionate friend, and an avid runner. Mountains and lakes are her happy place. Mountains and lakes are also my happy place, so we have that in common. We’re going to start by talking about spiritual bypass. One of the most common ways it shows up is when abusers—sometimes supported by clergy or even therapists—frame the solution as simply offering prayer for my husband to change. That’s why there are so many [effects of spiritual abuse ](/effects-of-spiritual-abuse/ "effects of spiritual abuse ")as well. ## PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND WHEN I DIDN’T KNOW WHAT ELSE TO DO **Tracy:** Absolutely. I’ll just give an example for myself. So my first D-Day was a month after I married. It was very traumatic, very, very traumatic. I didn’t know that I was in trauma. I didn’t know anything about trauma. There was so much I didn’t know. I didn’t have any support system or any real education. So basically, all I knew was that I was in so much pain, in such a place of darkness. The only way out, it took me two or three days, I don’t remember. Truly being in this dark, dark pit before I realized the only way out was God. And so I went to God in prayer and said, I cannot keep feeling this. I felt like it was going to kill me. Thinking, “I need to forgive my husband, but don’t know how to forgive him?” I am incapable of forgiving him, but I want to forgive him. And I know you can help me immediately. The darkness lifts, and I fill up with incredible comfort, warmth and peace. Now, I wasn’t healed from trauma. Of course, I didn’t understand trauma or what it meant to thoroughly heal from trauma. ## UNDERSTANDING HOW PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND BECAME SPIRITUAL BYPASSING **Tracy:** Here’s where prayer for my husband got tricky. While it worked for me at that time and helped me, ultimately it became a form of spiritual bypassing and it kept me stuck in the trauma. It didn’t help me to better understand it or to come to a better understanding of my situation. I want to compare that now to my second D-Day, about 15 years in. I found out that this was going on my entire marriage regularly. That obviously my husband had been lying constantly about it, and hiding it. Then all those pieces start to fit together. That explains so much of my experience in this marriage that I did not understand. That happened on a Sunday night, I still remember it late at night. We were in bed talking. And as he began to disclose the reality, my situation started to descend upon me, as I came to terms with that. I didn’t sleep that night. I think I fell asleep at 6 a.m. and slept for one hour. And I said, I will not do this again. Because I realized I’d only been through one big cycle of this. I could see that handling it the way I did the first time wasn’t going to cut it. All that was going to do was set me up for more D-Days, and more D-Days, and more D-Days. And so my whole approach to healing was different than that first time. This was not going to be an event or an arrival. This was going to be a long process. I was going to let myself feel angry for as long as I needed to feel angry. ## WHAT I LEARNED ABOUT PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND: THE SECOND D-DAY REALITY CHECK **Tracy:** You know, it’s interesting because I felt more betrayed by God after the first D-Day than the second. I don’t know what it was, but something after that second D Day, I instinctively knew some truths right away. And one of them was that this isn’t God. God did not betray me here. My husband did. And I realized that many things started fitting into place quickly. One of those was God was there for me all along. The lesson I learned was actually good and true. From the first experience, God is real. He was warning me. After that first D-day, prayer for my husband became a constant in my life. I would pray to know if my husband was honest with me or if [my husband’s lying](/my-husband-is-lying-to-me/ "my husband's lying") to me. And I always thought that since I could never find evidence, or my husband would never admit anything, I guess that meant he was telling me the truth because God wasn’t putting something in my lap, right? ## THE IMPACT OF DECEPTION ON MY RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD **Tracy:** Like throwing the evidence out in front of me. But in reality, I knew in my gut that something was wrong for years. And I knew after that second D-day, God was talking to me all along. It’s not God’s fault. It’s my husband’s fault. My husband interfered with my relationship with God. I was a spiritual person before I married. I came to my spirituality as a kid. And strengthened it as a youth and that was always a strong point for me. It was strange for me that after I married my spirituality started to decline. And I started to feel more distant from God. And I couldn’t figure out why. Because I was doing all of the same things I’d always done. My heart turned towards God. I wanted that relationship, but I couldn’t figure out why I was feeling so distant. And I would come up with reasons. Well, maybe it’s because I’ve had kids now and I don’t have the time to pray the same way I used to. I don’t have the time to spend as much time in the scriptures as I used to. So I guess I’m not prioritizing right. Because motherhood is difficult, but that wasn’t the reason. ## PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND BEFORE MARRIAGE: WHEN SOMETHING FELT OFF **Tracy:** I was careful and cautious about marrying, and I was very prayerful about it. I studied the subject and ultimately I decided, okay, I love this guy. No, I’ve got to take a leap of faith. So, you know, I said, yes. Well, I started to feel uneasy during our engagement, like something was off. There were various things that happened in a relatively short period during our engagement. That really moved me to confront my husband and ask if he had ever had any issues with pornography. She was also feeling kind of uneasy. We were like, is this normal? Is this just like engagement jitters? But we didn’t want to be like that crazy girl who likes to give back the ring, right? And changes her mind and goes back and forth. And so we made a pact with each other, me and my friend. That if we started to feel that uneasiness, we wouldn’t act on it unless it stayed with us for more than 24 hours. Because it might just come and go, the butterflies. I also prayed about that. I said to God, I understand that this might be normal feelings of anxiety, so I’m not going to take them seriously unless they stay with me for more than 24 hours. At one point, they did stay with me more than 24 hours. But still, I didn’t have any reason why something should be off. I didn’t have anything specific to point to. And he looked me in the eye and he said, no, never. And I may have asked one follow up question. He maintained, no, never. I didn’t push it. I just accepted his answer, but I still had these feelings of uneasiness. My best friend, at the time, was also engaged. ## WHEN OTHERS’ ADVICE OVERRIDES INTUITION AND PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND **Tracy:** So I went to my Dad, who I love and is a wonderful, wonderful man, full of lots of goodness and wisdom. But, he basically just talked me out of my feelings. And he convinced me that I was being silly and too emotional. He said, “Your fiance is a great guy.” He’s got great career ambitions. He’s going to take good care of you. And he loves you. There’s no reason not to marry him. Spiritual bypass again. After, I found out a month into marriage. Which, the way I found out, is because my husband lost his job. He was caught using it at work. It was awful. But I did briefly feel betrayed by God. I was like, I prayed about this, I asked about this. But again, through spiritual bypass, I let go of all those feelings. Well, after my second D-Day, 15 years in, when I tried to put all the pieces back together and make sense of it. I realized God answered my prayer for my husband. ## TRUSTING GOD WHEN THE ANSWERS TO PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND CHANGED **Tracy:** I knew in my gut that something was off. I can trust my gut. And I can trust God. I realize my husband is the one lying to me. My Dad talked me out of my feelings when I went to him, saying I feel like something is off. I’m nervous. I’ve never had to work through a intense or long lasting feeling of betrayal by God. I’ve realized he’s been with me. It’s people getting in the way. I want to add one quick thing I would encourage women to consider is that sometimes we may get an answer, right? Maybe, this was not my experience. I did not get a definitive, yes, marry this guy. That was not my experience in prayer for my husband. But some women I have talked to say they have had that experience. And so they feel betrayed when they find out. That’s understandable. Like, sometimes we can get an answer to something, but that doesn’t mean it’s necessarily the answer for the rest of our lives. Things can change. People can still make choices that change circumstances. I like to think about life as not something totally planned out. Where God is pulling these puppet strings. But rather, those change-your-ending books. ## ENDINGS CAN CHANGE & GOD DOESN’T WANT ABUSE **Tracy:** I don’t know if you ever had any of those. But you would start to read the story, and then there was a choice that you would have to make. Then depending on that choice, you would skip to a certain point in the book. And then you’d come to another choice. So depending on the choices made, the ending of the story would change. I can pray about something and get an answer that is good for me right now. But tomorrow, my husband can make a choice that changes circumstances, and the answer to prayer for my husband may change. Does that make sense? **Anne:** It does. Because many women think back to the answer to their prayers and think, but I’m supposed to be with him. Instead of saying, I need to set this boundary, because I’m not safe. They think God wants me to be tolerate abuse. God never wants you to be abused, ever. So if you’re trying to sort that out. I’m telling you here, that God does not want you to be abused regardless of what answers you had from prayers in the past. **Anne:** For me, I never asked whether I should marry my ex-husband. But I definitely felt like it was the logical right decision, which I made happily. And now looking back, I can see that my life’s work would not be possible without him. He introduced me to everything I needed to know, to run [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/) and to continue to run BTR. So I’m actually super grateful for the experiences. Because I would never do what I do now without the experiences he gave me. Which were all horrific, but also now I have a PhD in evil. ## SPIRITUAL PERFORMANCE V. REAL CHANGE **Anne:** Let’s talk about how prayer for my husband is problematic when a man exhibiting abusive behaviors. **Tracy:** So my husband, leading up to that second big D-Day, threw himself into spirituality. He was becoming involved in our church community, very service oriented. And was reading the scriptures for like a certain amount of time every day. He was, on his commutes to work. He was listening to sermons and keeping track in his little calendar journal, of acting out points. And he convinced himself that this was all serving him well. Because he had longer periods of abstinence between acting out events than ever before in his life. He was going a whole two weeks between acting out, for a period of months. And he was convincing himself, because he was doing all these things, that he was progressing. But did they actually help him progress? No. He fooled himself into thinking he was making progress. But he still lived in lies, secrecy, and abusing me. See, he told himself, no, this is good. Because I will tell what’s been going on after I’ve like six months or a year of sobriety under my belt. And it will be this awesome thing, and she’ll be so excited for me. But the thing is, he was just spiritual bypassing me and keeping me stuck in abuse. ## PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND & A FALSE SENSE OF RECOVERY **Tracy:** In about the period of one to two years post that second D-Day, He was doing all of the right things on paper for recovery. He’d done a formal disclosure. He had gone to a 12-step group, and was still going to it. He’d done the repentance process through our ecclesiastical leader. He was doing all of these right things, but that was just it. He thought that he was done. Like, that’s all taken care of, so can we just put a bow on it and lock it up in the closet and never talk about it again? So addicts can even use “working recovery” as a form of spiritual bypass. Where they convince themselves that they’re doing so great, but they’re really not. **Anne:** A lot of women are manipulated to ask, “Is he in recovery?” Because that answer can be manipulated to be yes with box checking. So victims are like, he’s in recovery because he goes to his weekly 12-step meeting and he’s going to therapy every week, but then you’re not safe yet. Instead of setting a boundary immediately and saying, okay, I need to get to safety now. And then watch from a safe distance to see if these abusive behaviors stop. I’m still in prayer for my husband and hoping that they’ll stop sometime in the future. **Tracy:** Yeah, when we’re in that terrible trauma and we just want relief. It’s easy to latch on to the idea of there’s a cure or a fix or a place of arrival. Well, once my husband gets to this place, like this many years of recovery or whatever, then we’ll be good. This really will be all behind us. ## WHEN PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND IS USED TO DISMISS ACCOUNTABILITY **Tracy:** When I think about am I safe, it’s am I safe now? Am I safe to say, engage in this conversation? My question is not, am I safe to recommit to my husband that we’re going to be together forever, and divorce is never on the table? No, it’s am I safe right now to continue engaging in the relationship the way that I am right now? **Anne:** Yeah, that makes much more sense. Figuring out if you [should stay together after infidelity](/should-couples-stay-together-after-infidelity/ "should stay together after infidelity") isn’t necessarily the most important thing. So let’s talk about some other examples. A man exhibiting abusive behaviors may use to manipulate his victim, in terms of spiritual bypass. It might be, “I used the atonement, Jesus took away my sins. What, you don’t believe in Jesus?” They’re imposing what seems to be their devotion to their religious beliefs into prayer for my husband as a legitimate solution to abuse. In this case is simply taking the name of God in vain. **Tracy:** Well, that’s spiritual abuse. Why haven’t you forgiven yet? Can’t you move on? Why are you being so un-Christlike? I mean, it’s just straight up spiritual abuse. The day after my last D-Day, I was expressing how much pain I was in. He looked at me and said, I can’t tolerate this cruelty and walked away from me. Calling me cruel, suggesting that somehow I’m devoid of compassion, so I’m falling short of some spiritual standard. Me expressing my pain is actually a good healthy thing for me to be doing. It doesn’t mean I’m not compassionate. ## WHEN SPIRITUAL LEADERS’ ADVICE ENABLES ABUSE **Tracy:** And this can happen with ecclesiastical leaders as well, both for the abuser and the victim. Bishops or pastors who tell men, well, you just need to pray this away. And they tell wives to pray harder. Or you need to immerse yourself in the scriptures, and then that will give you strength to overcome this. Like, why haven’t you forgiven yet? You just need to forgive. **Anne:** As if the forgiveness is the problem rather than the ongoing abuse. **Tracy:** And that’s why we need to separate ourselves to a degree or to several degrees. To get a level of safety, but asking someone who is literally living in abuse. And being currently and continually harmed to just forgive as if that’s going to make them not be affected by the abuse. ## FORMS OF VICTIM BLAMING IN PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND **Tracy:** New Age teachings can go wrong too. It’s the same teaching. What you just said, the way we create our own reality, is a form of victim blaming. There is the teaching that everything I feel or experience originates with my own thoughts, so that I am creating my feelings with my thoughts and prayer for my husband. That nothing is happening to us from the outside. That can be very victim blaming, and victim blaming is very dangerous because that will make it more difficult for them to find safety and heal. So these are some common things you might hear. It happened for a reason. Nobody can hurt you without your consent. I wonder why you created this experience. It’s just your karma. There are no accidents, no victims. There are no mistakes. Don’t look back. What’s done is done. Don’t be a victim. Your feelings are an illusion. Be strong. ## DEBUNKING THE MYTH “WE CREATED OUR OWN REALITY” THROUGH PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND **Tracy:** We create our own reality, so you shouldn’t do that. You should not write or think about something so negative, or else you will draw negative things into your life. The faulty thinking is that somehow if our belief is strong enough, if prayer for my husband is good enough, if our energy is high enough, like our vibration is high enough. Then we will only attract good things, and we can somehow avoid attracting negative things that will bring us down. That’s magical thinking, because we exist within these human systems. And these natural systems that we don’t have control over everything within those systems. We can have the most positive thoughts, be kind, and take all kinds of precautions for our safety, and still be deceived, or still be victimized in another way. Trauma symptoms are not the result of negative thoughts. New Age People think it happens like this. You have a negative thought, it leads to negative feelings and perceptions, which leads to bad things happening. But if I had been more skeptical and thought about negative potential consequences. It can help us do things within our power to help us stay safe. **Anne:** This would be like if you feel anger, that’s a negative emotion, so you’re going to draw more anger to you. An idea like that. Rather than realizing anger is a gift to us that can help us take action to keep us safe. ## GRATITUDE IS NOT THE CURE-ALL FOR ABUSE: UNDERSTANDING THE MEANING **Tracy:** Absolutely. That’s at the core, recognizing we have great power within our humanity and within ourselves. There’s so much light within us, and if we tap into that, there’s so much empowerment there. And that’s great, but that we also have limitations. And so with spiritual bypass, like prayer for my husband, with this new age bypass especially, there’s this emphasis on we can transcend the human experience, basically. Learning to disassociate and fooling ourselves into believing that’s transcendence. That we’re beyond pain. But that’s not the point. We’re not meant to transcend the human experience. **Anne:** It reminds me of a lunch with a gratitude coach. she wants to partner with BTR and at this lunch, she said, “If you can be super grateful, then any experience you go through is beneficial to you, useful to you. And I was like, that’s not helpful women stuck in this abusive situation, and all they’re trying to do is be grateful for their situation. And what it’s teaching them, rather than actually getting to safety. So I told her this would never be a good fit for my audience. Although it’s good when you’re in trauma to see the things worth being grateful for. You know, y I’m grateful that I have food today. I’m grateful that I don’t have to sleep on the street. I’m grateful that I have a blanket that I enjoy. You don’t have to say, I’m so grateful to be in this abusive situation. **Tracy:** No. No, you don’t. In fact, there’s power in recognizing that you’re not grateful to be in that situation. ## THE DANGER OF TOXIC POSITIVITY IN PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND **Tracy:** This is a common thing, is this toxic positivity, which is the excessive or ineffective overgeneralization of a happy and optimistic state all the time. Denial, minimization, and invalidation of genuine emotional human experience. So, that would manifest as hiding what we feel behind a positive front. Dismissing my emotions, feeling guilty for the negative emotions I feel, only positive prayer for my husband, and minimizing other people’s experiences. Trying to distract them from what they’re feeling, encouraging ourselves or others to reframe their experience. Which, that’s not always a bad thing. Sometimes that can be very helpful, but we have to be mindful of timing. And then also shaming others for feeling negative emotions. When I was in serious trauma. I just found out about everything that had been going on in my marriage for 15 years a month before. So something triggers me, and I cry, and I left the room because I was with family. I was with extended family, my parents, and a sister and, you know, her family, and it was embarrassing. I didn’t want to make them uncomfortable, so I left the room. But I could not stop crying, just sobbing. And my Mom followed me, and she said, “You know Tracy, you just need to put a smile on your face for the sake of your children.” And that was not helpful. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## THE NEED FOR SAFETY & STABILITY **Tracy:** So now I’m a bad mom because I’m crying in front of my children? Because I’m obsessed with [internet filters like cleanbrowsing](/what-is-cleanbrowsing/). And I had no control over that trigger in that moment. The trauma was too fresh. It was too recent. Not only was it not helpful, it was also very shaming. Also, she told me in the same conversation, “You just need to put the past in the past and look to the future in prayer for your husband”. **Anne:** Let’s skip right to, Oh, put on your happy, positive attitude about it and everything will be okay. But if you keep crying, then it’s for sure not going to be okay. But that is another way of telling a victim it’s her fault. A month after you don’t know if it really is in the past. **Tracy:** You’re still living it. Yeah, I was still not safe. She wanted me to skip healing. She wanted me to pretend nothing was wrong. Whereas what I needed was safety and stability. And after I’d found safety and stability, I need to go through the long, messy process of grieving to go back to the past. And acknowledge it, validate it and feel what we need to feel. ## PRESSURE TO MOVE ON IN PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND We have this societal intolerance, this cultural intolerance for feelings of helplessness and loss of control, which leads to victim blaming. People who have an inability to tolerate their own difficult emotions are not capable of tolerating the pain and suffering in others. So, they’re impatient for us to just move on, or just pretend everything’s fine. Victims remind us of our own vulnerability. If she was victimized, I could be victimized, and that’s scary. So I pretend she wasn’t victimized, she just made a bad choice, or she just put herself in a bad situation. And so if I cannot make that same bad choice or put myself in that situation like she did, I won’t have to feel helpless. ## VICTIM BLAMING & SELF-BLAME **Tracy:** Victim blaming is a convenient way to avoid taking responsibility for our own actions if we have played a part. So often, abusers will do this, or people who have contributed to secondary trauma, exacerbated the trauma. They’ll continue to blame the victim because it’s a way to avoid taking responsibility for their own part and the victim’s pain or injuries. And then also that there’s self-blame that happens oftentimes. Where we as victims desiring a sense of control, blame ourselves. Because then we’re like, well, if I had just done this, then that wouldn’t have happened. So, if I [can change my husband](/can-my-husband-change/) or change the way that I am or the things that I do going forward, then this won’t happen to me again. And we see this oftentimes, I think, in a [betrayal trauma](https://www.btr.org/best-support-for-betrayal-trauma/) community. They’re safety seeking behaviors, essentially. It’s, if I am just the perfect wife in all of these different ways, then he won’t betray me again. **Anne:** In some 12-step circles, women are told you have to keep coming to 12-step meetings for the rest of your life or this will happen to you again. **Tracy:** Yeah, as if doing that has any bearing whatsoever on his choices. Like it doesn’t. **Anne:** I think it’s ironic because they talk out of both sides of their mouth. They’ll be like, you have no control over him, [I have no control whether or not I am over him](/am-i-over-my-ex-the-best-way-to-know/), but this will happen to you again if you don’t keep coming to meetings the rest of your life. I’m like, what? **Tracy:** It doesn’t make sense. Like, you can’t have all of these things be absolutes at the same time. ## PERCEPTION VS. REALITY **Anne:** Rather than thinking, how can I change my inner thoughts so that I can change reality, I think if victims are most interested in truth. What is the truth? In our case, what we’ve been perceiving incorrectly is that we’re in a relationship with a really good guy, who has a few small problems rather than the reality that he is an abusive person. Is it true? Regardless of how he looks at church, regardless of how good of a provider he is, are these behaviors that I’m experiencing abuse? **Tracy:** Yes, exactly. ## POSITIVE THINKING AS A FORM OF SPIRITUAL BYPASS **Tracy:** More important than positive thinking. Because while positive thinking can be helpful sometimes, it can keep us in dangerous situations. I know a woman who experienced incredible [betrayal trauma](https://www.btr.org/best-support-for-betrayal-trauma/). A very sad story. And a friend wanted to be helpful. Let me help you reframe this experience to just look for the positive, imagine the good that can come of this. That’s not what she needs right now. Because I knew enough about her situation that what she needed was safety. She was not safe. Immediately jumping to, what are the lessons? Or what are the blessings that could come from this? ## WORST CASE SCENARIO: ABUSE & MINIMIZATION **Anne:** Everyone wants a happy, safe marriage. And so [women have already been operating on that for years,](https://www.btr.org/fairy-tales-have-harmed-women/) where they’re like, okay, he can change. I will be patient as he changes. I will believe in Christ’s atonement. So they’re saying, I will be patient. Because I want this positive outcome. But when it comes to abuse, the worst case scenario is not divorce. You’re currently in the worst case scenario, abuse. And nothing will feel good. There’s nothing that’s going to feel peaceful. There’s nothing that’s going to feel right when it comes to abuse. Every effort you make to work towards safety will feel like, ugh, I don’t want to do this. **Tracy:** Truthful thinking is often painful. The reality of our situations hurts. So, it is tempting to minimize the pain of it and pretend it’s not as bad as it is. ## POST-TRAUMATIC GROWTH VS. SPIRITUAL BYPASS **Tracy:** For me, allowing myself to feel as broken as I was, that’s a starting place. And then diving into learning to have more compassion for myself. And giving myself grace for the things I’d been through. Where I had been victimized, and then integrating the story. So it’s like I can think back on my story, even the story I’m in right now, still, and not feel ashamed of it. Not feel this intense pain about it. It’s part of who I am now, and I wouldn’t be who I am now if I hadn’t been through that. This new humility where because I feel so much compassion for myself, it naturally extends to others. I just feel compassion for all my fellow human beings, whatever struggles they’re going through. It’s changed my perspectives on almost everything. It affected basically every part of my life. ## USING SPIRITUAL BYPASS MEANS POST TRAUMATIC GROWTH ISN’T POSSIBLE **Tracy:** Surround yourself with safe people who can be patient with you, who can see you up close and personal, and not turn away. **Anne:** I think when women realize they were a victim. They don’t have to go to 12-step for the rest of their lives. There is no way to heal when using prayer for my husband as spiritual bypass. There’s nothing they did or can do that would have avoided it. And then learning new skills, learning new things about themselves. This can be a reason to learn and grow more. ## TRIGGER WARNING: POSITIVE POST **Tracy:** Exactly. And it’s not a straight and narrow path. It’s a long, winding, loop de loop kind of path. When I was in deep trauma, it was difficult for me to hear overly positive reflections on [betrayal trauma](https://www.btr.org/best-support-for-betrayal-trauma/) from people at the other end of the tunnel. It felt painful and unrealistically optimistic. Like I couldn’t trust that these women were actually at peace with all that had happened. And I resented they were not giving justice to the pain they had endured. For me, for hope to feel legitimate, I have to hear and feel how dark it was before. If I just see an after picture, then I doubt the reality of the before picture. I have to see them side by side to fully appreciate and [trust the miracle of the healing](https://www.btr.org/about/) that has taken place. Not everyone here knows my story, or is witness to the depths of the pain and trauma I have experienced. The hopelessness, fear, confusion, paralysis, anger, loneliness, anxiety, depression, and deep sorrow. I do not ever want to minimize the pain and trauma of anyone, by glossing over the struggle and only celebrating the healing. ## GROWTH FROM BETRAYAL TRAUMA Because the struggle is real, and it is hard. And I believe in honoring the moment we are in, and the emotions that we are feeling. Because doing that is a key part of finding genuine peace and healing. But it’s hard to accept and honor where we’re at from a place of self compassion and love if we feel that others are not honoring it with us. **Tracy:** So, please know that I still hold a place for those of you in the depths of the struggle. It’s okay to struggle. It’s okay to feel whatever you are feeling. And I don’t judge you for any of it. I see you and I love you. So, after that lengthy disclaimer, I can finally say that I am grateful for my betrayal trauma. I woke up at 5 a.m. after a disturbing dream and couldn’t go back to sleep. And I was lying in bed and realized that I am grateful for it. I never thought I’d get to this point. I wasn’t sure if I ever even wanted to get to this point. But I am here, and I am glad. I am grateful for the person I am becoming because of what I have experienced. And I like me. I have learned things and grown in ways I am not sure I could have without experiencing the [trauma of betrayal](https://www.btr.org). Does this mean I would go back and choose to do this again? I don’t know. I’m not sure. Does it mean I would wish anyone else to be blessed with [betrayal trauma](https://www.btr.org/)? Hell no. I wouldn’t wish it on anyone. Does it mean God predestined me to be betrayed by my husband, assigning this trial to me? No, I don’t believe that for a second. ## THE GOOD & BAD OF BETRAYAL **Tracy:** He hasn’t condemned me for missing those warnings. He has loved me and helped me learn from the experience. And through the experience, I have learned that he wants me to be safe and to know happiness, and I have learned how to trust and rely on him to keep me safe and at peace. And if I miss another warning and fall into darkness again, he will be there to lift me up and guide me back to light and healing. None of the good that has resulted for me through this trauma takes away from the bad. I view them side by side. If I didn’t give full validation to the bad, I wouldn’t fully appreciate the good. Why would I want to cheat myself of greater joy by glossing over or denying the darkest parts of my journey? I will do my best to honor whatever moment I am in, knowing that [things can always be changing](https://www.btr.org/can-my-husband-change/). And I am not defined by any one moment. I don’t have to feel sad, or lonely, or angry forever. Just as I don’t expect to feel happy and positive all the time for the rest of my life either. The beauty is in the flow. ## CHOOSING SAFETY And I think the gratitude and joy that we can feel if we allow it to come naturally, as opposed to chasing it is more genuine. That’s my experience. It was not helpful for me growing up as a child in a culture and family where I was constantly told I needed to choose to be happy. To choose not to let things bother me, and that I just needed to smile more. The ultimate spiritual bypass. It wasn’t helpful. It didn’t help me to be a happy kid. And in trauma, when I was legitimately a victim of a terrible thing, it was re-traumatizing and therefore actually stunted me a little bit. Until I recognize what goes on and set boundaries around people who were not safe. First of all, my own experience growing up, there was an absolute aversion to the word “feminist”, to the point that I never did any learning about it, I accepted that feminism was a bad thing. I grew up hearing the word feminazi used by people close to me. Which is a really derogatory, mean thing to say. Even in my adulthood, when I started opening myself up a little bit to some ideas in feminism, I thought, is there another term we can use? Is there another term? Is there another word we can use? But now, I have come to embrace and love the word. I consider myself a feminist. Not just a feminist, I consider myself a radical feminist. ## FEMINISM VS. SPIRITUAL BYPASS Let’s see what Sarah Bessey says about it. She says, page 13 of her book, Feminism is complicated, and it varies for each person, much like Christianity. It’s not necessary to subscribe to all the diverse and contrary opinions within feminism to call oneself a feminist. God is the source of truth. Christians can still thank God for the good works associated with feminism, such as the gaining of status for women as persons under the law. Voting, owning property, and defending themselves in a court of law against domestic violence and rape. As Canadian theologian John D. Stackhouse, Jr. says, Christian feminists can celebrate any sort of feminism that brings more justice and human flourishing to the world. No matter who is bringing it, since we recognize the hand of God in all that is good. Modern Christian feminism is alive and well, from social justice movements to seminaries and churches to suburban living rooms worldwide. ## THE RADICAL NOTION OF EQUALITY **Tracy:** At the core, feminism simply consists of the radical notion that women are people too. **Anne:** I was talking to someone about it. They were uncomfortable about the word feminist. And they said, well, I just don’t want it to swing too far. And I said, the pendulum cannot swing too far on equality. Like what? That we always have to keep [women a little below men](https://www.btr.org/male-entitlement-women-bodies/). No, it can swing as far as it needs to swing. Currently speaking, women are not believed. Women are not taken seriously. When they experience this extreme [emotional and psychological abuse](https://www.btr.org/psychological-abuse-definition/) and oppression, they are blamed for it. If we talk about our experience, we shouldn’t talk about it in that way. And if we complain about it, we’re complaining too much about it. If we stay silent about it, we are in denial. There’s no way right now to appropriately protest it without being blamed in some way. **Tracy:** Right. Because it sounds radical. **Anne:** Yeah, it sounds extreme, right? Oh, she’s using this word abuse. It’s not that extreme. And you’re like, no, that’s actually what it is. And I’m not being extreme. As far as I’m concerned, I don’t think it can go too far when it comes to equality. So until women can be equally believed, as equally understood, as equally taken seriously. The pendulum has not swung far enough. **Tracy:** I love Sarah Bessey, she names one of her chapters: “Jesus Made a Feminist Out of Me” ## FEMINISM: WOMEN ARE EQUAL TO MEN **Tracy:** This was part of the transformation, the [post-traumatic growth](https://www.btr.org/treatment-for-divorce/). It was tapping into this truth. That society had been suppressing in me for most of my life leading up to that point. On page 111, she’s talking about a difficult experience for herself, which had to do with pregnancy, but for me, it was betrayal trauma. And she says, but the truth remains, regardless of the circumstances unique to us. The voice of God has a habit of breaking through the noise of our lives, giving us a turning point. So that we mark the rest of our lives differently from that moment on. When we talk about these moments in our lives, we begin our stories with the words, and then everything changes. And that was [betrayal trauma](https://www.btr.org/). And I’m a feminist now. Jesus made a feminist out of me. That was a natural result of healing in my life. It was a result of stopping the spiritual bypass. **Anne:** For women uncomfortable with this word feminist, I want you to consider who is telling you that feminists are bad? What is that about? **Tracy:** It’s because it’s a disruption of the status quo. It infringes on power structures as they are. It’s a threat to patriarchy. ## PATRIARCHY & PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND **Tracy:** I agree, though, with Sarah when she says patriarchy is not God’s dream for humanity. For a while, even after I began to embrace feminism. I still was like, but is there a way to make it work within patriarchy? Is there a way that patriarchy is still the right way and like, and we just have to tweak this or tweak that in prayer for my husband? And ultimately, no, I believe that patriarchy is the result of the fall, like that’s not how God intended men and women to interact. [Men are legally in charge, they’re the organizers of society. And for most of human history, women didn’t have much power](https://www.btr.org/fundamentalism-and-patriarchy-fuel-abuse/ "The hierarchy, yeah. Men are legally in charge, they make the laws spiritually or religiously rather. And like, they're the organizers of society. And for most of human history, women didn't have much power"). I mean, they weren’t counted as humans. You’re literally treated as property. Which is the ultimate spiritual bypass. You don’t have freedom because God made it that way. You can’t vote, you have no say in how the laws are actually written that affect you. Results in a terrible, terrible experience for women and girls. But I would say it’s not healthy for boys and men either. Like, it’s not what God intended. It also sets these strict gender roles. I don’t think they’re helpful to men either. It’s comfortable for them because it was made to be more comfortable for them, but it’s still not the way God intended it. ## HOW RIGID “GENDER ROLES” KEEP WOMEN STUCK **Anne:** So you’ve got the class in charge, men. They can define these roles. So they want to define the situation that is the most comfortable for them. And so they’re telling women, well, you would be most comfortable if you acted like this. If you did this, rather than letting the women have a voice. The most logical way of doing a partnership with a husband and wife, would be, okay, we’re going to marry. Let’s sit down and talk about each of our talents. What are the things we enjoy and what are the things we’re good at? So I might say, I’m good at yard work. I’m excellent at gardening. I love being outdoors. I’m not so good at cooking and organizing food. That’s just not one of my talents. It’s not something I’m interested in, right? And then he would say, okay, these are the things I like. I also like being outdoors. I also like doing yard work. Great. We can do that together. And I also don’t like cooking. At that point where there’s this thing that’s like, huh, we both don’t like cooking, then the answer is not, well, you’re the girl. So you have to do it. Sometimes it sounds spiritual…like telling women the answer to their marriage issues is simply prayer for your husband. It still removes shared responsibility. ## PROTECTING WOMEN’S CHOICES FOR THEIR LIVES **Anne:** We want to [protect women’s ability to choose the kind of life](https://www.btr.org/stages-of-anger-after-infidelity/) they want. That includes freedom from the idea that prayer for your husband is her primary job. Many people can hold a job, be a parent, and take a shower. And doing their laundry and eating. So this idea that women must do basic household tasks. Like laundry, cooking, cleaning and stuff like that. Because a human isn’t capable of doing basic self care things. And having talents, exploring their talents, and doing anything else is ridiculous. But everyone should be free to explore their own talents and what they’re good at. And what they’re interested in, and also be able to do regular household tasks. A person’s mission in life should not be just basic household tasks that everyone needs to know how to do. **Tracy:** Right, and if both the [husband and the wife approached marriage](https://www.btr.org/new-husband-is-abusive-too/) in that way. Approached life in that way, then they could work that out together and form some sort of equilibrium. But forcing people into these specific gender roles, there are plenty of men who don’t feel comfortable being shoehorned in that way either. **Anne:** They don’t know how to fix the air conditioner. And so what do you do? You call an AC guy to fix your air conditioner. But then to say to a woman, well, you’re a woman, so you should be forced to cook. ## WORKING OUT MARITAL TASKS **Anne:** It’s like, no, you’re not forcing me to fix the air conditioner. So what can we do to work this out? There are so many other options. If we’re willing to accept that God created each of us as individuals with talents to do his work. He hasn’t just said all women I created you with one job, domestic labor and prayer for your husband. Sorry, it’s your only option. **Tracy:** Once you move beyond, when her children are young and at home, women talk about feeling empty. Like, where’s my purpose anymore? How sad is that? **Anne:** My Mom, she’s only worked outside the home for a very short time, but she’s very handy. She knows how to tile, she’s a kitchen designer, she does electrical and plumbing and all kinds of things. And she remodeled our house a ton. She’s helping me remodel my house right now. In fact, that is the construction you can hear in the background if you’ve heard any of it. My Mom is out hammering and finishing my basement right now. She’s interested in construction. She loves it. Is she the best person at making dinner every night? No, that’s not one of her talents. But that doesn’t make her a bad mom. If she couldn’t explore her talents, and told to just be happy making dinner, that’s spiritual bypass. ## THE ROLE “BIBLICAL” WOMANHOOD IN PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND **Anne:** She’s an excellent, amazing mom, and loves construction. I’m grateful that even if she didn’t work in the construction industry, she could explore her talents. Even not working outside the home. So I’m not trying to say that women have to do it in a certain way or a way that they feel uncomfortable with. But having a man look at you and say, well, you have to clean the toilet because you’re a woman. That’s your job, is crazy. **Tracy:** It is. **Anne:** It can be anyone’s job. **Tracy:** Yeah, she talks a lot about this in Chapter 6, Patron Saints, Spiritual Midwives, and “Biblical” Womanhood. She says, the phenomenon of being a stay at home mother is relatively new and unique to the prosperous. Right along with daycares to provide child care. It’s a mark of our privilege to decide. Or to adjust our household budget to keep one [parent at home full time with the children](https://www.btr.org/how-can-we-protect-children-online/). I believe it is a worthy pursuit, good work, holy work. I hope so, it’s my own daily work. But it’s not the same thing as Biblical womanhood, is it? If a woman can enjoy the title in Haiti, or even by the woman hailed in scripture. The same way it can be by a middle class woman in Canada, then Biblical womanhood must be more than this. ## JESUS DEFENDS WOMEN’S CHOICES **Tracy:** I love the example she gives of Mary in the story of Mary and Martha. I had never read this story before. Mary was sitting at the feet of Jesus as a pupil. This is on page 19. She says, “The daughters had never had that spot. Even after Martha tried to remind her of her duties and responsibilities to their guests, Jesus defended her right to learn as his disciple. He honored her choice as the better and said it will not be taken away from her.” And what is she doing right there, but defying gender roles and cultural standards. Christ is honoring and encouraging her in that. So I never understood the story that way. Because in the church culture I grew up in, it was very much, no, to be a good woman, you do it this way. You fit this role, you think this way, you feel this way. You know spiritual bypass. **Anne:** This is similar to spiritual bypass and new age bypass. Religion and society tell women As a strong woman, I should bypass painful things and remain in prayer for my husband. ## BENEVOLENT PATRIARCHY & SPIRITUAL BYPASS **Anne:** If you’re a real, true, righteous woman, then your husband wouldn’t be looking at porn, because your prayer for your husband would be powerful enough, and he wouldn’t want to do that. If you had enough faith in Jesus, you can create miracles in your family. There’s this intersection here between spiritual bypass and feminism. **Tracy:** That actually reminds me of benevolent patriarchy, which is what exists in my church organization. It says, “we’re going to put women on a pedestal. We’re going to talk them up. We’re going to talk about how wonderful they are, how spiritual they are, how incredible they are, how they are more inclined to righteousness than men are.” “They don’t have to work as hard for it. It just comes more naturally to them. But we don’t want to hear what they have to say. We don’t want their unique experiences. Because if their unique experiences contradict what we’re saying their experience should be, they’re not valuable anymore.” **Anne:** They’re more spiritual and better, but they can’t be trusted to lead. **Tracy:** Exactly. It doesn’t make sense. It’s very much a, as long as you’re falling in line and holding up this system, then your voice is valuable. And we will let you speak in prayer for my husband. But if that same woman says, well, this is my experience, and this is what God is teaching me. But it contradicts the status quo or infringes on the comfort of men. Then, suddenly, her voice is not valuable anymore. Suddenly, her access to the spirit must is impinged a form of spiritual bypass. ## ASKING TOO MUCH & HOLDING MEN AND WOMEN TO THE SAME STANDARD **Anne:** Wonky, she’s gone off the deep end. She’s a little cray cray. When women get labeled crazy or gone too far, usually it’s when they’re saying something that is right in line with church doctrine. So for example, most churches say abuse is wrong. But then they’ll be like, well, this woman is making this up, or she’s being too loud, or she’s talking about it in a way that’s not the right way. It’s like, but what I’m saying is exactly in line with what you profess to believe. **Tracy:** Stepping outside the church for a minute, just into a secular place. That reminds me that we had the first wave of feminists with suffragettes, getting the right to vote. Then we had the second wave feminists in the sixties and seventies. And then we had the third wave feminists a few decades later. We’re really just saying, look, we want to hold men to the same standard that we’ve been held to all along. And men resisted that, society resisted that, and labeled the feminists as a problem. ## WOMEN IN THE WORKFORCE **Anne:** On that note, I want to talk about women in the workforce. So many women, when they divorce or are considering a job or something. Many women think, okay, well, I want to be a therapist. Or they think, well, I’ll work at the library or at the school, or something that fits with, how can I be a mom? And I just want to shout out to women considering, how can you become more independent or use your talents better, or whatever you feel like you need to do. There are so many needs for women in politics, in policing or in law, like becoming lawyers, becoming judges. I want women to open their minds to like, you can do anything, and you can help the world in so many ways. ## PURSUING AMBITIONS DESPITE SPIRITUAL BYPASS **Tracy:** As a kid, I had all those kinds of ambitions. I remember wanting to be a doctor, lawyer, teacher. Wanting to be an architect. I wanted to be a writer. But as I got older, I forgot about all of that. Because at my core, I believed that I couldn’t. And because of the way it was talked about, it was the way it was modeled for me. I was told, yes, you need to go to college and get a degree, so that you can get a job if your husband gets hit by a truck someday. That’s literally what I was told. It wasn’t so that… **Anne:** …so that you can fill the measure of your creation. **Tracy:** Exactly. It was always a backup plan. Like I had all these ambitions, and yet I felt these limitations made it very difficult to actually pursue any of that. because i was focused on prayer for my husband. ## SPIRITUAL BYPASS & THE STRUGGLE FOR INDEPENDENCE **Tracy:** And I ended up doing what my culture told me to do, which was get married young and focus on prayer for my husband. I barely graduated from college before my first baby was born. And didn’t get any real work experience, so although I have a degree, it’s sad. I feel embarrassed even talking about it, because it feels like a worthless piece of paper to me. Because I’ve never used it, and I have no serious career work experience. I’ve had little jobs here and there. But I was not set up to think about my life in terms of, oh yes, I could pursue a career. Because that could be a fulfilling thing for me. And beyond that, so many women in our community, for sure, feel so trapped. It’s just another layer to the difficulty of their situations. Because it’s difficult to see a way out when they have been financially dependent, and they feel so helpless. There are opportunities, and I love when women figure it out. But, oh, it adds so much more difficulty. **Anne:** Like, let’s say now at 40, you decided you would go to law school, you could do that, right? But then you’re 15 years behind the man who went to law school at 25. So that’s what makes it difficult, but that doesn’t make it impossible. ## IT’S NEVER TOO LATE **Anne:** Women may think they’ve lost they’re chance to do that thing that you feel like in your heart, you always wanted to do. It could be that you want to be a painter, literally like paint people’s houses, not like an artist. It could be that you want to run a yard care business. I don’t know, whatever you enjoy, it is not too late. Will you be behind your male counterparts, who started when they were 25? Yeah, but I want women to know that if they start now with whatever they want to do. If they want to go to med school and finally graduate when they were 60, they could still be a doctor for 20 years from when they’re 60 to 80. You know, there’s always options. And I want women to realize that it’s not too late for you. **Tracy:** I see women go through the struggle because it’s a struggle. But then I see them do it, it’s incredible to see. Also, it sets a wonderful example for your children. ## HONORING CHOICES IN PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND **Anne:** Yeah, now that being said, so many women want to stay at home and I honor that choice as well. I remember when I had my son and I was thinking about going back to work, because at the time my husband didn’t have a job. My son was nursing. And so just the thought of leaving him to work horrified me. I did not want to do that. So I want to honor women who are like, no, no, I need to be with my children. This is what I need to do. ## SUPPORTING WOMEN’S CHOICES **Anne:** Because those things are important, and [supporting women](https://www.btr.org/) in their choices and what they feel they need to do in their lives. Our aim here at [Betrayal Trauma ](https://www.btr.org/)Recovery is to support, validate, encourage, and be there for you regardless of what you choose. We care about you and love you and validate you and want you to do what’s right for you, whatever that is. **Tracy:** Yes, for women unfamiliar or a little uncomfortable with the idea of feminism. You don’t have to align yourself politically with a particular brand of feminism to call yourself a feminist. There are pro-life feminists. If that’s an issue for some women. Yeah, just don’t be afraid of the word. There’s no shame in the word. ## WOMEN DESERVE PEACE & SAFETY **Anne:** It can mean many things to many people, but the cool thing is you can define your own type of feminism. You can define the way you want to promote equal rights for yourself in your own life, and also for women throughout the world. It can help us overcome spiritual bypass. This podcast more than anything is to help women come out of the fog of emotional and psychological abuse and coercion. And be able to live lives of peace and safety. That is what women deserve. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [He Says I'm Controlling But I'm Not - What You Need to Know](https://www.btr.org/he-says-im-controlling-but-im-not/) **Published:** April 14, 2026 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Has he claimed your controlling, but you're just trying to get answers and be treated with respect? **Content:** Have you thought to yourself, “he says I’m controlling but I’m not.” If so, he’s likely emotionally and psychologically abusive. Here are 3 things to know. There are 19 different types of emotional abuse. To see if he’s emotionally abusive, take our [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ## 1. BUT WHAT IF I’M ACTUALLY CONTROLLING? If a man is emotionally mean and wants to keep hurting someone, he might call her actions to feel safe “controlling” to trick her into stopping. This doesn’t mean you should stop looking for the [truth or setting boundaries for your emotional](https://www.btr.org/7-powerful-truths-about-emotional-abuse/) safety. [To learn about the most strategic ways to deal with his control, check out The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](/livingfree/). ![When He Blames The Abuse On You](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/-mfE5cABLp4/maxresdefault.jpg) You’re not controlling if your desire is simply to keep yourself and your children safe and healthy. ## 2. WHY DOES HE SAY I’M CONTROLLING? An abuser tricks people by lying to his victim and he says i’m controlling but i’m not. [Is lying emotional abuse](/is-lying-emotional-abuse/)? Yes. It works a lot, and others around him believe his lies. But it’s not controlling to state your opinion or ask another adult to do their share. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) Do you know what is controlling? Lying and manipulation. The truth is, his accusation is really an admission. He’s the one controlling the narrative through his deceitful communication. ## 3. HIS FRIENDS AND FAMILY SAY HIS EX WAS CRAZY CONTROLLING If a man tells you that his ex was controlling (and has manipulated his friends and family the same way), it’s likely he’s grooming you to not ask too many questions. He usually wants a woman to give him enough space to do secret things *he knows* are outside her boundaries, like pornography, soliciting prostitutes, or other harmful, abusive behavior. If someone tries to make you leave them alone because they’re hiding things, it could be a warning [sign of emotional or mental abuse](https://www.btr.org/can-my-husband-change/). They might also try to pressure you into doing things you don’t want to do. ## IF HE SAYS YOU’RE CONTROLLING, YOU NEED SUPPORT At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we understand what’s really going on when he says things like this to create confusion. We’d love to [support you in your journey to emotional](https://www.btr.org/group/) safety. [Listen to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to learn more.](https://www.btr.org/podcast/) ## TRANSCRIPT: HE SAYS I’M CONTROLLING BUT I’M NOT **Anne:** In marriage, what’s the difference between controlling and expecting reasonable behavior? If he says I’m controlling but I’m not, here are three signs that he’s actually saying this to maintain control. 1\. He calls your boundaries controlling. When you refuse to participate in behavior that you think is unacceptable, whether it’s believing his lies or not asking him questions when you don’t know where he has been, he’s trying to control the way you perceive him. 2\. If he’s lying. The purpose of lying is control. And so if he’s lying, he’s the one trying to control you, not the other way around. 3\. When your desire is for equality and peace, and his desire is to do what he wants. So if he told you that his ex was controlling when you met, it’s likely he was grooming you to not ask too many questions. Because then, later, when he says I’m controlling, but I’m not,’ he can flip the script and accuse you of being controlling whenever he’s not getting his way. That’s the crazy thing about controlling men. Most women married to men like this don’t want power over, payback or revenge. They just want reasonableness, like honesty and equality. ## COERCIVE CONTROL 101: WHEN HE SAYS I’M CONTROLLING BUT I’M NOT **Anne:** Today I’ll interview Dr. Emma Katz. Here’s a preview of what she’s going to talk about today: **Dr. Katz:** What victim survivors want is just a restoration of reasonableness. They just want to interact with that person in a reasonable way and get reasonableness back again. And then they’re constantly dealing with the coercive controller. And they don’t want reasonableness or fairness, they want control. He says I’m controlling but I’m not because he wants to enjoy watching you suffer, to manipulate people for their own ends, to their own advantage. An entirely different, malicious agenda motivates them. So if people wonder, could I be a coercive controller? For most people, if you’re even asking that question, it’s unlikely. **Anne:** Dr. Katz is a senior lecturer in criminology at Edgehill University in the U.K. Her work has shaped understandings of coercive control across the globe. Her book, *Coercive Control in Children’s and Mother’s Lives* by Oxford University Press is the first academic book to focus on children and coercive control. She brings her research to the public in an accessible and influential way on her platform, *Decoding Coercive Control with Dr. Emma Katz*, where she writes articles that are read by tens of thousands of people in more than 100 countries around the world. Welcome Dr. Katz. **Dr. Katz:** Thanks so much for having me. ## DEFINITION OF COERCIVE CONTROL **Anne:** Thank you for being here. Dr. Katz, let’s start with the definition of coercive control. **Dr. Katz:** Coercive control is when one person sets up a dynamic in a relationship of “do what I say, or else.” That’s it in a nutshell. To go into it in a bit more detail, it’s when one person is subjecting another to persistent and wide-ranging controlling behavior, controlling multiple aspects of their life. Even though he says I’m controlling but I’m not. And this goes on for a significant period of time, and the perpetrator makes it clear that if you don’t cooperate with them, if you don’t obey them, they’re going to make life very unpleasant, very difficult for you. And within that, there’s a whole range of different things that they’ll do to you if you are not cooperating, from physical violence to sexual violence, to psychological and emotional abuse. To isolating you, to draining you economically, to hurting your loved ones, and many forms of punishment that they’ll inflict on you, if they don’t think you’re cooperating enough with them, obedient enough to them. **Anne:** Sadly, listeners to this podcast understand this issue on a very personal level, including myself in terms of counter parenting, that I dealt with for eight years post-divorce. It was very, very difficult. Thank goodness I’m past that now. For our listeners, who are victims of their husband’s lying or their ex-husband’s lying, and he is lying a lot to control the narrative. You talk about the difference between that and say, a loving mom who might get angry with her kid for not doing his homework. ## CONTROL THAT PARENTS EXERT OVER CHILDREN **Anne:** I’m just thinking of myself as a single mom. I have two teenage boys, and right now there’s a lot of, get your butt off the couch right now and do your homework right now. And their dad is so nice to them. Like the sticky sweet, super nice. But the way he really does try to control what they do, like actually undermining their homework, getting them not to take baseball, or dropping their instrument lessons. ‘Cause so many of our listeners have been accused. **Dr. Katz:** So firstly, certainly when we’re a parent, we need to have some control over our children. So, if someone needs to have some control over their children as a parent, that’s healthy and normal. Because obviously children don’t have the development to always make the healthiest and smartest choice. Sometimes they need some guidance on that. And on how to effectively contribute to the household. So as long as what the parent expects is reasonable and in the child’s best interests. That’s fine. **Anne:** Like going to bed. **Dr. Katz:** Going to bed, brushing their teeth. **Anne:** Doing their homework. **Dr. Katz:** Yeah, not eating junk food all the time, that sort of thing. And being nice to each other, treating each other in a reasonable, fair way. So then, let’s talk about a controlling person. ## HE SAYS I’M CONTROLLING BUT I’M NOT: CHARACTERISTICS OF A CONTROLLING PERSON **Dr. Katz:** They may have some controlling tendencies, but you shouldn’t be terrified of them, because if you’re terrified of them, they’re way more than controlling, they’re abusive. A controlling person, you may need to stand up to them quite firmly, and you may need to set some boundaries with them, but they shouldn’t respond by punishing you maliciously, making your life hell. Because again, if they’re punishing you for standing up to them, we’re getting way beyond controlling. We’re getting into abusive. So now let’s talk about coercive controllers. They are way beyond a person with some controlling tendencies, because they are driven to have a lot of control over multiple domains of your life. And they’re not doing it in your best interest, but rather because they want to undermine you. A coercive controller wants to chip away at their targets. We’ve heard expressions like chipping away at a person, death by a thousand cuts. That’s what a coercive controller is trying to do. They’re trying to basically take a person and turn them into a hollowed out puppet on a string who just exists to please and serve them. They view it as their right and entitlement to turn you into a kind of puppet on a string who will just exist to please and serve them and have no needs, rights, dreams or wishes of your own. That’s the difference between like healthy parenting and then being a controlling person. ## REASONABLENESS VS. ABUSE: WHAT IT REALLY MEANS WHEN HE SAYS I’M CONTROLLING BUT I’M NOT **Dr. Katz:** But you shouldn’t scare people with how controlling you are, and then being a coercive controller, which is highly abusive. **Anne:** And when he accuses you of being controlling, it’s not because you actually are, it’s because you’re not doing what he wants. He says I’m controlling, but I’m not, simply means he’s losing access to the compliance he expected. **Dr. Katz:** No, I’m sure they’re just setting reasonable boundaries. So let’s talk about the vast difference in intention between somebody who’s being coercively controlled and a coercive controller. So, somebody who’s being coercively controlled wants fairness. They want the person to behave in a reasonable way that a reasonable person would accept as reasonable. Obviously, it depends on who you are asking. Some people might have unreasonable ideas about how people should behave. So that might be tricky. Like if you’re not sure about it and ask your parents, but your parents aren’t reasonable. And then they say, “No, you sound like you’re being unreasonable.” But you can think about it and think, oh, okay, maybe my parents actually aren’t that unreasonable. **Anne:** An example with my son, it should not take two hours to empty the dishwasher. **Dr. Katz:** Yeah. **Anne:** That’s pretty reasonable. **Dr. Katz:** Reasonable, yeah. It shouldn’t take two hours to empty the dishwasher. ## SURVIVORS WANT A RESTORATION OF REASONABLENESS, WHEN BOTH CARE AND HAVE RESPECT **Dr. Katz:** So fairness, we’re talking about, I put into the relationship, and so do you. I can discuss my worries constructively with you, and you can discuss your worries constructively with me. We both care about how each other feels. We both generally want the best for each other. Even when we’re having a big argument, we still respect each other as human beings. We still see that we’re human beings here who just fundamentally have dignity and rights. And we each have a level of respect for each other, even if we don’t like each other much in that moment. So, reasonableness, yeah. What victim survivors want is just a restoration of reasonableness. They just want to interact with this perpetrator, who obviously they may not be seeing as a perpetrator in that moment. It might be your husband or ex-husband, but they want to interact with that person in a reasonable way and get reasonableness back again. And then they’re constantly having to deal with the coercive controller pushing and pushing and pushing them, and not doing anything reasonably. So, obviously they’re going to get upset, agitated, and frustrated about that, but that doesn’t mean they’re a bad person. They’re just dealing with a very unreasonable person who has no respect for them. And it’s hard to deal with someone like that. Now the coercive controller, they don’t want reasonableness. They don’t want fairness, they want control and want to enjoy watching you suffer. They want to manipulate people for their own ends, to their own advantage. ## COERCIVE CONTROL IS DOMESTIC ABUSE **Dr. Katz:** They don’t care about how people feel or the impacts of their behavior on the person, beyond being able to manipulate them to get what they want out of them. So an entirely different, malicious agenda motivates them. So if people wonder, could I be a coercive controller? Well, I think for most people, if you’re even asking that question, it’s unlikely. Because a coercive controller is usually pretty convinced they’re in the right, and they wouldn’t even stop to self-reflect most of the time on whether they were doing anything wrong. Because they only see their own entitlement to control, and they don’t stick to any reasonable behavior perhaps agreed upon. Don’t blame yourself. These people are just some of the most difficult people on the planet to deal with. Coercive control is part of domestic abuse. And another term coined to try and describe it is intimate partner terrorism or ex-partner terrorism. You could also say, so it’s like they’re your own personal terrorist, trying to control you through fear, trying to control you through power games, trying to stop you from living the normal life that citizens in your community normally live. So when you hear something like *“He says I’m controlling, but I’m not,”* that’s exactly the type of upside-down dynamic they create. It’s very severe and serious behavior. So perpetrators have to get quite sneaky about what they’re doing. If they really acted as though they were their own dictator, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, just forever. Then they would lose a lot of their power to keep that going, because ultimately it would be so horrific to go through all the time that the victim survivors would just run away. ## COERCIVE CONTROLLERS NEVER TAKE PROPER ACCOUNTABILITY: HE SAYS I’M CONTROLLING BUT I’M NOT **Dr. Katz:** They would rather be homeless on the street than deal with it. So if they want to keep control of the victim survivor as long as possible. Particularly while the relationship’s still happening. So, they have to disguise what they’re doing by claiming they’re doing it out of kindness, out of protectiveness, out of care. I only do this because I love you. I only do this because I worry about you. I’m doing this in your best interests. You are not very good at doing that. I’m happy to take that burden off you and do that for you. I have to look out for you, et cetera, et cetera. So that it can often be disguised in these ways. And they’re very good at putting blame on the victim survivor, saying things like, “Well, I wouldn’t have reacted that way if you hadn’t been so dah, dah. dah.” So it’s always turning around and blaming the other person. They can never take proper accountability for what they’ve done. They can never just say, yes, that was my fault, and then shut up. Post-separation, they’re just on this mission to punish you as much as possible. For daring to have the strength and bravery to break free of them. Their sense of entitlement cannot bear that you’ve broken free of them. So they’re just on a mission to punish you post-separation. And they just wanna keep up that ability to punish you for as long as they can. And it’s horrific post-separation for victim survivors, because they’ve done what society now tells victim survivors to do and separated. ## WHAT IF THE PERPETRATOR WON’T LEAVE YOU ALONE **Dr. Katz:** That didn’t used to be the advice. The advice used to be stay in your marriage at all costs, and don’t you dare break up your family. Now, we tend to say, most of us, to victim survivors, the way to go is to separate. But then what if you do that and the perpetrator will not leave you alone? And they won’t leave you alone for five years, for 10 years, 15 years, and so on. We, as a society, have not grappled with that yet. We don’t want to grapple with it. And we don’t want to do anything to inconvenience our predominantly male perpetrators. Because if society wanted to inconvenience them, we would see that happening. We would see a much stronger response to what they do. But we see very little response to what they do. Victim survivors have a terrible difficulty getting any kind of response from the authorities post separation abuse. So it’s enormously difficult to endure and survive. **Anne:** It’s very interesting, because in some ways it looks like the same to an outsider. For example, many women who come on this podcast share their stories, including me. We wanted that reasonableness. And so insisting on it, or even fighting for it, not physically, but with a verbal, “Hey, we need to do this.” “It might seem to an outsider like we’re haranguing them or refusing to give up, the way coercive control is often misunderstood, and that’s how when he says I’m controlling, but I’m not, it looks reasonable to people who don’t understand what is happening. ## ABUSERS ARE ALWAYS DOING SOMETHING FOR A REASON **Anne:** But if the situation is inherently unfair, and if this situation is inherently nonsensical. And she’s trying to make sense of it, and she won’t let go of equality, fairness, or logic. And he wants her to let go of that, so he says I’m controlling but I’m not. From the outside, it looks like the same or almost exactly the same. And people cannot tell the difference. And I like to have people consider what is the aim of it. Like for example, exploitation. Many of these men just don’t want to pay child support, for example. And so because they don’t wanna pay child support, but they can’t technically do that. They’re like, well if I have to pay child support, then I’m going to make it as miserable as possible for her. And maybe someday she’ll just give up and not ask me for child support anymore. No one’s gonna say to the victim, “Hey, maybe let go of the child support.” Because she needs that money. And she’s also legally entitled to it. But he does not think that she is. And so there’s one thing to consider as victims in this scenario is what is their real intent. They’re making your life a living hell, because they don’t want to do something. They don’t wanna pay child support, they don’t wanna pay alimony, they don’t want their son to play baseball, because if their son plays baseball once a week or twice a week, they have to sit and watch this game that they don’t enjoy watching. And they would rather undermine it and tell him, you’re bad at baseball, baseball’s bad for you. **Dr. Katz:** Yeah, abusers are highly functional in what they’re doing. They’re always doing it for a reason. ## LYING IS CENTRAL FOR PERPETRATORS: HE SAYS I’M CONTROLLING BUT I’M NOT **Anne:** Yeah, and usually the way they do it is through lies. Rather than saying to the kid or the mom or whoever, I don’t enjoy watching my kids’ baseball games, so I’m not going to go. But yeah, shine on, do whatever. They lie and say, baseball’s not good for you. You don’t really wanna play baseball. Your mom is coercing you to play baseball. It’s all this other stuff. I always come back to the lying is the real problem. Because if they told the truth, I don’t want to pay child support, and if I have to, I’m going to wreak havoc on you. Then if they said that in court, then everyone would be like, okay. **Dr. Katz:** Absolutely right. Yeah. **Anne:** It’s the lies that are the problem, all the abuse is the problem too. But they just wouldn’t get very far in their abuse if they did not lie. **Dr. Katz:** You’re so right. They would not get far in their abuse if they did not lie. And lying is so central to what they do. I think we don’t talk enough about how perpetrators are, as you say, tremendous liars. They just lie all the time, and they construct a narrative based on lies, distortions, and twisting things. And in this narrative, they’re a good person, and they’re doing nothing wrong. Everyone else is crazy, unreasonable, and horrible to them. And as you say, they’re not admitting to what they’re doing. Imagine, people say, “Oh, you picked the wrong guy.” But imagine if they stood up on a first date and said, “My intention is to hollow you out, to enrich myself at your expense. ## WHEN HE SAYS I’M CONTROLLING BUT I’M NOT: D.A.R.V.O. EXPLAINED IN REAL LIFE **Dr. Katz:** So after 10 years with me, you would be very poor and have few economic assets, and I would be much richer and would’ve siphoned off your assets. That should been yours. **Anne:** Right, exploited you. **Dr. Katz:** Yeah, I’m going to exploit you for 10 years, yeah. I’m going to expect far more with you than I’m willing to give myself. My plan is to ensure that you never have a strong relationship with your children, because that would make you too happy, and I don’t want to see that. So if we have children together, I’m going to make sure to sabotage your relationship with your children as often as possible. Imagine if they made that speech on the first date, and that is their intention, and they’ve probably done it before. Then obviously everyone would get up and run for the hills, but they lie and disguise. So lying is so central to what they do. And also, we see this use of DARVO. So hopefully most of your listeners are familiar with this concept of DARVO: deny, attack, reverse victim and offender, D-A-R-V-O. Again, this lying is central to DARVO. The perpetrator will deny that they were abusive. Say, “Oh, I never did that.” Or, “I only did that because I was provoked.” And then they’ll turn around and try and attack the victim’s character so that people won’t find them credible anymore. And very often that’s along the lines of, she’s crazy. She’s my crazy, psycho ex. ## THEY ATTACK THE CREDIBILITY OF THE VICTIM **Dr. Katz:** She’s unreasonable. She’s got a mental health disorder. They’ll throw around all these sort of mental health labels. Like she’s got narcissistic personality disorder, bipolar disorder, borderline personality disorder, et cetera. Even though she wouldn’t have been diagnosed with any of these things. And oh, she’s mean, she’s a really nasty person. Everyone hates her, etc. So they attack the credibility of the victim. So that people won’t take them seriously, won’t believe them, will have major doubts in their minds about their believability. And then they try and reverse victim and offender. So, I’m not the bad guy here, but she is. She’s the one who’s actually been horrible to me for all these years. And then a big long list of twists and distortions of things, or just outright lies of things that they think the victim survivor’s done. Meanwhile, constantly playing down what they’ve done. So by the time people hear all this DARVO narrative from perpetrators. Some people can see through it, but most of the time people don’t know what to believe, and they don’t know how to unpick all this. And what people usually do in response to DARVO is think, that sounds messy. It sounds like they were both horrible. So I’m just not going to get involved, and I’m not going to stand up for this victim survivor, and I’m not going to stand against this perpetrator. Because I can’t even tell who’s right and who’s wrong. So I’m just gonna walk away. And then when people do that, they leave the perpetrator with all the power. ## THE VICTIM HAS NO ONE TO SUPPORT HER **Dr. Katz:** And the victim survivor, with no one supporting them. And that power imbalance between them that the perpetrator’s been so clever as to build up over the years, there’s no one there challenging that. Because everyone’s been put off from getting involved by the DARVO. So that can often be the case. That can often be what ends up happening. It’s devastating to people. So one message I would always give people is to try and educate those around them on DARVO tactics. So when it happens, people will be more able to see through it. . But I think if we all have more awareness of how common DARVO tactics are, then they’ll be a little bit less effective. **Anne:** Yeah, one thing I try to do here at BTR and through our services is give women confidence. So often when women sense something’s wrong. But they don’t know that he’s lying, and no one else does either. They don’t recognize they’re a victim of his emotional and psychological abuse. No one else does, either. They may go to a couple therapist, or often sex addiction or pornography addiction recovery. That makes things even more complex and they get blamed even more. And they’re going because they need help. Most of the time it’s the victims who set these appointments. It’s women who wanna know what’s going on? How can I fix this? I would love for everyone listening to know that you know enough in your own heart and in your own mind, and it’s great to get validation. And hopefully you can get it from this podcast and from Dr. Katz and all the other wonderful domestic abuse advocates out there and feel that. ## COUPLE THERAPISTS OR ADDICTION THERAPISTS CAN’T IDENTIFY THE ABUSE: HE SAYS I’M CONTROLLING BUT I’M NOT **Anne:** If you don’t know what’s going on, and go to a couple therapist or addiction therapist or some program, like a marriage intensive. They will not identify this for you. And rather than confirming what you already know, what you sense. The gaslighting that’s going to occur, and the DARVO will start to knock down your sense of confidence. And he keeps you in the dark longer when he says I’m controlling, but I’m not. **Dr. Katz:** That’s so true. I wrote one of my Substack articles in February about how family therapy and coercive control is a match made in hell. And I would also say couples counseling, and anything like that. Because most therapists have had very little or indeed no training on coercive control as part of their degree they took in psychology. Or any kind of qualifications they did to enable them to practice counseling or psychology or whatever it’s that they’re doing. So it’s unlikely they have any knowledge of coercive control. And if they do, it may not be sufficient knowledge. It may not be from good sources. So they might think they know something about it, but what they know is maybe old fashioned stuff, maybe quite victim blaming. It’s just not good information to base practice upon in the current day. So yes, if you go to somebody wearing the hat of a professional, but they know nothing about coercive control. They can’t recognize it, can’t see that it’s happening right there in their office. They don’t have the training necessary to make sense of what they’re seeing. Then yes, that’s just going to leave the victim survivor thinking they were wrong to ever think this was a serious and abusive situation that their perpetrator was subjecting them to. ## THE PREMISE OF COUPLE THERAPY IS THAT BOTH PARTNERS CONTRIBUTE TO THE PROBLEMS IN THE RELATIONSHIP **Dr. Katz:** They’re just gonna walk out thinking, it sounds like maybe I’m to blame and maybe I can fix this. Maybe I need to compromise more, sacrifice more, and try harder. Because that’s what the therapist probably will be set up to suggest. So, couples therapists are not there to deal with abuse. They shouldn’t be seeing people where one person’s abusing the other. They really shouldn’t be doing that. The whole premise of couples therapy is that both partners contribute to the problems in the relationship, and also that both partners are willing to deal with the problems. And that they both want to get to a healthier place, so it is not set up for coercive control situations at all. And the same with family therapy. The idea of family therapy is that everyone who’s going to that is contributing to the problem and everyone has a sort of genuine good intention to try and sort it out. And when you have an abuse perpetrator, that is not the case whatsoever. **Anne:** No, and if they’re lying they’ll go to couple therapy and they will say they are there because they want to improve the situation. Again, if they went in and said, “There’s no way I’m gonna change my tactics. I’m a liar and it works really good and I can exploit her all the time.” It doesn’t matter what proof you have. It doesn’t matter if you’ve got some checklist and you’re like, look at all these things on the checklist, you’re doing all these. They never will do that because they are inherently a liar. ## COUPLE THERAPY WITH AN ABUSER CAN KEEP YOU STUCK **Anne:** So in that session, they’re like, of course I’m here. Of course I wanna make this better, of course I’ll compromise. I will do this and this, and then I really need her to do this, this and this. And he says I’m controlling, but I’m not. He’s never gonna do the thing he just said he is gonna do, but the therapist is like, wow, he really wants to be here. He cares about his marriage. He wants to make this work. They don’t have the frame of reference to understand that he is literally lying to her and the therapist. So, it’s a very dangerous situation when she also does not know. Luckily, I’ve had a few people tell me they listened to my podcast. They weren’t sure, but in the back of their mind they were thinking, “Okay, He says I’m controlling but I’m not. And she said it’s bad, but I don’t really know.” Thank goodness, because they had that heads up, they could see what was going on. Whereas other women who don’t know what’s happening and the therapist doesn’t know what’s happening. Sometimes get stuck in that gaslighting world for five years, 10 years, 20 years of this type of couple therapy, until they realize he’s been lying the entire time. **Dr. Katz:** That’s so true. I think that going to therapy with your abuser can keep you stuck for another five or 10 years. It can be devastating. It may keep you stuck forever. You may never recover from it. Hopefully, that’s infrequently the case. But for some people, we know they never escape. And they’re with that perpetrator till the day they die. ## WOMEN ARE PROFOUNDLY IMPACTED BY COERCIVE CONTROL: HE SAYS I’M CONTROLLING BUT I’M NOT **Anne:** Yeah, and I think a lot of times it’s ’cause they don’t know. I wanna credit all women for doing that, because they believe couple therapy will improve it, because everybody says that. It’s common advice. So they’re trying to get help. They are trying to improve their situation. They’re not dumb, they’re smart. That’s what a smart person does. A smart person knows they’re in over their head, and a smart person goes for help. The problem is that they don’t say I am an abuse victim, ’cause they don’t know. The therapist also does not identify it, and that is not the victim’s fault. **Dr. Katz:** Especially if the perpetrator’s clever to never be physically violent. Most perpetrators are intimidating. They shout in your face, they glare at you. They might kick the furniture, they might throw objects around, but not actually at you. But they send you the message, you better cooperate with me, or else next time I’ll be kicking you, not this sofa. But if they don’t actually cross the line into attacking you, then a lot of women are uncomfortable labeling that abuse. Because we’ve been taught for so long that abuse is violence, black eyes, broken bones. And abuse needs that physical element to be real. And that’s not the case at all. We see that women are just as profoundly impacted by non-physical coercive control. That is really severe, and limits their life to a great extent. We’re seeing these women with the same kinds of distress and trauma as those who’ve been physically hurt. ## WOMEN DO THEIR BEST WITH THE INFORMATION THEY HAVE **Dr. Katz:** So it’s as you say, women who are going through this, I would never ever say they were dumb. On the contrary, they’re smart. They’re doing the best they can with the knowledge they have and the pieces of the puzzle they can see. They’re not a mind reader. They can’t tell what their perpetrator is actually thinking. So they do their best with the information they have. Meanwhile, he says I’m controlling but I’m not. I’m adamant that victim survivors are simply ordinary people who had the misfortune to meet a perpetrator and maybe to meet more than one perpetrator, because for lots of people, this happens more than once in their lifetime. And that’s not because there was something wrong with them, but just because there are an extraordinarily high number of abusers out there. Our society is frankly flooded with them. For example, one in five men in America admits physically attacking their partner or wife. Research and surveys have found that one third of college men would have sex with a woman against her will if nobody found out, and there wouldn’t be any consequences for them. So that’s one third of our college men who say yes. They would actually be happy to rape a woman if they could get away with it. ## ONE THIRD OF COLLEGE MEN WOULD COERCE WOMEN **Dr. Katz:** Researchers didn’t use the word rape, because that’s a very particular word that makes people have a very particular reaction. But they said sex against a woman’s will, which is rape. And a third of them said, yes, they’d be happy to do that if they could get away with it. if you’ve had the misfortune to be in a marriage with one, that’s not because there was something particularly wrong with you. You were just an ordinary person who had the misfortune to meet one of these abusers. **Anne:** Yeah, in my opinion, lying is the most common type of sexual coercion. They know that if they said, “I’m gonna take you on this date, I’m gonna fake I like everything you like, I’m gonna look you in the eyes. I’m gonna give you compliments. I only want to have sex with you, and then I never wanna see you again.” Then when he gets “consent.” She says yes to sex under the guise of him actually liking her. That is sexual coercion. She never hears from him again, and it’s like that was confusing. We hit it off. He seemed to like me. We had everything in common. I would submit that in many of those cases it was that he was just mirroring, grooming, lying to get you to say yes. Thinking the yes means it’s okay. If you say yes, then win-win, right? It’s what everybody wanted. It’s not wrong if she says yes, kind of an idea. And it’s very wrong, and it’s sexual coercion, which is rape, essentially. **Dr. Katz:** Yes, there are all sorts of circumstances in which people can say yes, and it’s valid or invalid. ## WHEN SOMEONE IS LYING TO YOU IT’S NOT A VALID YES: HE SAYS I’M CONTROLLING BUT I’M NOT **Dr. Katz:** So, if you’re saying yes, because you have the genuine information about what’s going on, and you’re saying yes of your own free will because you are enthusiastic about what’s gonna happen. And if you’re gonna participate in that with enthusiasm, then that’s a valid yes. But if you don’t have all the information, if someone’s lying to you and deceiving you, and so you’re actually acting on false information with your, “Yes.” Your yes is coming from a place where you don’t understand the full picture of what’s going on, then I don’t think that’s a valid yes. **Anne:** No matter how enthusiastic she is. Because she might be extremely enthusiastic based on his lies. But that doesn’t mean anything. **Dr. Katz:** No, like you say, it needs to be based on correct, truthful information to be valid. We might be enthusiastic about signing a contract for a new phone, because we think we know what this contract says. But if we actually read the contract and found it was full of lies, something very different’s gonna happen. And we’re going to be robbed of our money, given a bad deal, and ripped off for this phone. Then obviously, our enthusiasm would not have been there had we known that. **Anne:** Right. **Dr. Katz:** And also, to give a valid yes, you need to be comfortable to say no. ## IF YOU’RE SCARED OF SAYING NO, THAT’S COERCIVE **Dr. Katz:** If you’re in any way scared of saying no. If saying no will lead to hours and hours of sulking, guilt tripping, pushing, asking you over and over again, trying to turn your no into a yes. Then if it’s in those sorts of circumstances, you don’t have the option to say no easily. So a lot of the time people will say yes, because they know that saying no is too hard. There’s too much pushback. So they say yes. But if they really had a free choice, they wouldn’t be saying yes. And for me, the yes is invalid, because you didn’t have the proper choice. Similarly with sexual coercion, if you really wanted to say no, but you couldn’t because the pushback would be so bad, then it’s not a proper yes. And then it is rape, or sexual assault, depending on what then happens. I think that’s a tough conversation. **Anne:** Yeah, I think there’s another element to this, which is [how abusers gaslight victims & advocates](https://www.btr.org/how-do-abusers-gaslight/). That is, maybe even if he’s not pressuring her, if she thinks it’s my duty as a wife to have sex. It’s often maybe a faith that might tell her, “You need to submit to your husband’s sexual desires.” Or maybe someone who’s like, “If he doesn’t have sex regularly, he’ll maybe go have an affair.” Or, “He’ll have sex with someone else.” Or something like that. So even if he’s pressing her and he says I’m controlling, but I’m not. If she has absorbed some of that societal or religious gaslighting, she is 100% not coercing herself. That is absolutely not what I’m saying. ## IF HE CHOOSES TO HAVE AN AFFAIR, THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU SAYING NO **Anne:** But hear those voices in her own head, not realizing they’re not her own voice. Not realizing it is from this religious or societal scripting, and not realizing that is just not true. Even if he’s not pressing her to do it, if she has absorbed some of that societal or religious gaslighting, she is 100% not coercing herself. That is absolutely not what I’m saying. But hear those voices in her own head, not realizing they’re not her own voice. Not realizing it is from this religious or societal scripting, and not realizing that is just not true. If you don’t wanna have sex for any reason, it doesn’t even matter. If he chooses to use porn or have an affair, that literally has nothing to do with you saying no, because you didn’t wanna have sex. But this, it’s your fault that he did this thing that hurt you when you said no. So many women in our community are told like, “Well, what did you think was gonna happen if you didn’t wanna have sex with him? Of course, he was gonna go use porn or solicit a prostitute or have an affair or whatever.” Not realizing that what he does is his choice completely independently. This doesn’t happen that often. ‘Cause I, I don’t interact with single men very much, but if I do and they say something like, “Oh, my ex-wife, she was just frigid and she wouldn’t give me sex.” I always say, “Oh, I am so glad. That’s great. ‘Cause women should never have sex when they don’t want to.I’m glad you were married to such an awesome person.” ## HE SAYS I’M CONTROLLING BUT I’M NOT: I’M THE TERRIBLE PERSON WHEN I REFUSE **Anne:** And they literally have no idea what to say. They’re like, I don’t even know how to react. **Dr. Katz:** That’s awesome. I wish I could be there to see that when they react that way. Because I think this is a related point. Which is, what is wrong with men who are having sex with women who are not enthusiastic about what’s happening? That is so disgusting. Why would you want to be intimate with another person’s body in that way? When they’re just lying there and thinking when it’s going to be over. You know that even if they’re putting up an act to seem enthusiastic. But you just coerce that act out of them, because before you’ve complained, they’re just lying there. So that you pressured them to give an appearance of enthusiasm. When you know they’re not enthusiastic genuinely. What is wrong with people who want to have sex under those circumstances? I will never understand that, and I find it so gross and awful. **Anne:** I remember telling my ex, ’cause sex with him was just miserable. And I told people about it, and that made me the terrible person, because I was like, “Yeah, sex with him stinks.” And that really hurt his feelings. And I was like, “It’s not that fun.” I didn’t realize what was going on. So I was kind of flippant about stuff. But I was very open about it. ## DO ALL OF THE REASONS OR EXCUSES MAKE SENSE? **Anne:** So just to skip ahead for a minute, when I realized it was abuse, no one took me seriously because I was so open about everything. They were like, “Well, you can’t be an abuse victim because you’re not mousy or quiet or anything.” But I told him once, “Do you think I could just read a book? Do you think I could maybe prop it open and you could be having sex, but I could be reading.” And I was a little bit joking, but not really. And instead of being like, wow, what’s going on? I don’t remember what he said, but he didn’t respond in a way that made me feel like he really would care that much if I was reading. And I think that’s the point you’re getting at. Is like what? Like that is so crazy. The conversations that women in this situation have. Whether it be about sex or about him yelling or weeding or whatever. You think about the conversations and if women are still in it and maybe they’re going to couple therapy. Maybe someone is saying, “Well, let’s get to the heart of his childhood trauma.” And maybe why he said this or something. But if you can take just one step back or have a little bit of an objective point of view and realize like, this is crazy pants. Anyway, thinking about that, it’s important as women listen to think, wait a minute. All these reasons or excuses, do they even make sense when he says I’m controlling but I’m not? **Dr. Katz:** It’s so hard to see it when you’re in proximity. ## PERSPECTIVE FROM DEPERSONALIZING THE SITUATION **Dr. Katz:** Maybe something that might be helpful is to imagine this conversation among hypothetical friends you might make up in your head. And run this conversation. My hypothetical friends who are married, they had this conversation that mirrored the conversation I’ve just had with my partner or husband. What would I make of this if this was happening to other people? What would that mean if somebody said this? So, what does that say about them as a person, where they’re at, and what their mental state is? And if someone else says this, how would I understand that if it was not me, but someone else? And just to try and take that kind of, like you say, that step back, depersonalize it a little bit, that can be useful. I think I’ll reiterate that. The people being abused have done nothing wrong. And I don’t think there’s anything abnormal about them. Sometimes we hear the most appallingly victim blaming things, even from people who say, “Oh, I’m not victim blaming.” And he says I’m controlling but I’m not. People say you need to take accountability for your part in the abuse. No, you don’t. You were looking for a normal, healthy, loving relationship, and you got served a load of lies and loads of abuse. And nothing to do with you. It’s not your fault, you don’t need to take accountability for any of that. Human nature binds us. So for most of us, we’re bound by the messages that we get from our society. ## WOMEN ARE ENCOURAGED BY SOCIETY TO BE KIND: HE SAYS I’M CONTROLLING BUT I’M NOT **Dr. Katz:** It will take us a long time to figure out that we’re being abused because we don’t want to think that’s happening to us. We don’t want to think that particular script is suddenly running in our lives. We don’t want to reinterpret a situation that we thought we understood through the lens of, well, maybe this is abuse, because that’s tough. Most people, understandably, don’t want to do that. So it takes people a long time to get to that place. That’s human nature, and that’s the way our society is set up. People are not encouraged to make that assumption quickly, “Oh, this is abuse.” They’re encouraged to be kind and considerate, to have empathy even if [your husband has no empathy](https://www.btr.org/husband-has-no-empathy/), and to be self-sacrificing, and to try and make things work. Especially women are encouraged to be like that, and there’s nothing to be ashamed of or to blame yourself for if it took a long time to get to that place. You’re not alone, because that’s what happens to pretty much everyone. I just think people say things like, “Oh, you must have attracted the abuser into your life,” or “you teach people how to treat you.” Or he says I’m controlling, but I’m not. And I think those things are horribly victim blaming statements. And I reject them completely. I think that, as I say, we’re all doing our best here in a society that is pretty much flooded with abusive people. There are far too many of them. They’re not one in a hundred, they’re perhaps one in two, one in three, one in four. There are many abusive people out there, especially unfortunately, men willing to be abusive to women. Obviously, it can happen the other way around, but coercive control is a male dominated crime. ## COERCIVE CONTROL IS A CRIME IN THE UK **Dr. Katz:** I’m speaking to you from the UK, where we have made coercive control a crime. I think that is the case in a handful of American states and a couple of Australian states. It’s patchy, in a lot of places it’s not a crime yet. But I see it as a crime. I just wanna say all that. I think victims and survivors really deserve so much more credit than they’re given. Like you say, people are often very negative about victim survivors. Actually, you’re just a completely ordinary person who’s had to survive something really horrific. And anyone who survived that I think is doing amazing. Even if you’re only hanging on by your fingernails, even if you feel like you’re only surviving by a very thin margin, the fact that you are still surviving in any circumstances in my book means you are awesome. **Anne:** Well, thank you so much, Dr. Katz. I really appreciate your work, and it’s so wonderful to meet another woman in this fight to protect victims and help them when he says I’m controlling but I’m not. So thank you so much. **Dr. Katz:** Ah, well, thanks so much for having me on. It’s a pleasure. Thank you. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast **Tags:** emotional abuse --- ### [Coercive Control Examples: The Hidden Ways He Undermines Partnership](https://www.btr.org/coercive-control/) **Published:** April 21, 2026 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Many women experience this, but it's not something we talk about openly. It's time to start the conversation. **Content:** **Coercive control** is a sustained pattern of controlling a domestic partner. However, coercive control inherently means that it’s not a partnership at all. Here’s why. ## COERCIVE CONTROL DEFINITION **Coercive control** is a sustained pattern of control in marriage through deception. It’s a **system of deception and manipulation** meant to give one partner power while maintaining the appearance of normalcy, even goodness. The key word is *pattern*. Often, the spouse being controlled doesn’t recognize it. From the outside, all she sees is a husband who seems kind, composed, spiritual, or self-aware. And coercive control can continue both during marriage and after separation or divorce. If your husband starts to exhibit behaviors he never exhibited before marriage, it’s likely that the man you fell in love with was a mask he wore to coerce you to marry him. This means you may have been experiencing emotional and psychological abuse the entire time. Learning the 19 different types of emotional abuse is essential. Our [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/) will help you see if what you’re experiencing is harmful to you. ## WHY COERCIVE CONTROL IS SO HARD TO IDENTIFY When your marriage isn’t functioning as a partnership, it can be incredibly difficult to name why. That’s because coercive control isn’t just manipulation, it’s an entire hidden structure. Many men who use coercive control work very hard to conceal it. They may appear: - Calm - Rational - Faithful - Engaged in therapy - “Trying” - Accountable Meanwhile, their wives often feel: - Confused - Anxious - Emotionally exhausted - Responsible for everything wrong - Like they’re “too sensitive” I’ve interviewed over 200 women who have experienced coercive control in marriage. Many are highly educated. Some work in mental health, law, social work, or education. They understand trauma and communication systems. And almost all of them say: > “I don’t know how I missed it.” Here’s the truth: **If it’s happening to you, you didn’t miss it. It was purposefully hidden from you.** The fundamental tactic of coercive control is deception. ## TRANSCRIPT: COERCIVE CONTROL IN MARRIAGE **Anne:** Controlling and coercive men maintain power over their wives through deception. Wendy, a member of our community, is here to share her story. Welcome Wendy. Why don’t you start wherever you feel comfortable? **Wendy:** I was married for about 15 and a half years, and found out a couple years in that he was viewing exploitative content. I was crushed. I remember the first time I found out I went downstairs, and I curled up in a ball on the living room floor. And just crying, and it’s like the only time I remember being that devastated. [My husband wouldn’t stop lying to me.](https://www.btr.org/husband-wont-stop-lying/) He disclosed every so often that he viewed this. And of course, it seemed like it was just that one time. I’m a heavy sleeper, and I distinctly remember waking up a few times, feeling like I had had intercourse, but I didn’t remember. I remember feeling worthless, and I felt like everything in our relationship that was wrong was my fault. Because I didn’t enjoy it with my husband. And that’s when I discovered this whole new world. And I found out way more than I guess I ever wanted to know. ## THE MISERABLE EXPERIENCE CAUSED BY COERCIVE CONTROL YOU CAN’T SEE **Anne:** I totally understand. At 30 I was a virgin and so excited. I’m not a prude by any stretch. We married, and after two days of, I was like, this is miserable. I felt like an object. The whole experience, everything around it was awful too. I just felt used and worthless. And then afterward I’d say something like, what are you thinking about? Hoping that he would connect with me in some way. And talk about me or us or something. But pretty much every time he’d say something like bike parts, and he’d be like staring into space. It felt completely disconnected. and. After a while, I was like, this isn’t fun for me at all. And this has nothing to do with me. It’s all about him. From then on, I didn’t want to, but I continued to initiate because I thought I had to. I thought it was my job. I thought it’s like a chore that I check off the list. And I did not realize that that was coercion. **Wendy:** Right, I enjoyed it when we first married. But then I suffered from what I thought was postpartum depression. ## SEARCHING FOR ANSWERS AFTER MARRIAGE FEELS OFF **Wendy:** I couldn’t even sleep in our bed. I slept on the couch. So I went to counseling and was better for a while. But I always felt like everything was my fault, and any issues were my fault. And there were people around me saying the same thing. Someone even told me that I should have it with my husband anytime he wanted. And that made me feel terrible. And I didn’t tell my husband about that. I kept that to myself. I just felt so worthless. For a while, I was like, Oh, well, my husband never abused me. I really thought that and then. In the school library online, I was looking for studies on abuse in marriage, and I was coming up empty. I just did a Google search and put in [emotional abuse and marriage](https://www.btr.org/7-powerful-truths-about-emotional-abuse/), and this study came up where they called it wife ##e. And that’s when it hit home, that’s what it was. Once I had that, I found a few more studies on it. I ended up on the National Domestic Violence Hotline website, and it actually has definitions of coercion. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## DEFINING WHAT’S HAPPENING TO YOU AS COERCIVE CONTROL **Wendy:** It talked about coercion. I had mostly experienced the coercion. And then it led me to other resources. As I learned more about this topic, I thought, that is exactly what happened. My husband did do this to me, but it was the coercion part that struck me and hit home. And then he admitted to doing this to me in my sleep. I don’t want other women to experience the same thing I experienced for so long. **Anne:** It’s absolutely is, and a man can do this to his wife for years without her understanding what’s actually happening. Let’s go back to coercion. Cause it’s something I talk about so much here on the podcast. What did you learn about coercion in your research? **Wendy:** Sure, the first thing they mention is making you feel like you owe them because you’re married to them. You’re in a relationship, they spent money on you, they bought you a gift. They give you drugs and alcohol to loosen up your inhibitions, playing on the fact that you’re in a relationship. Saying such things as it is a way to prove your love for me. ## EXAMPLES OF COERCION **Wendy:** If I don’t get it from you, I’ll get it somewhere else. Reacting negatively with sadness, anger, or resentment. If you say no or don’t immediately agree to something. Continuing to pressure you after you say no. Making you feel threatened or afraid of what might happen if you say no. And trying to normalize their expectations. For example, I need it, I’m a man. Mostly it’s like trying to make you feel obligated. to have it with them. **Anne:** So many women feel obligated to have it with their husbands. They don’t want to, but they’re worried about the consequences if they stopped. **Wendy:** Right, yeah **Anne:** On the flip side, they could be abusive to you because they’re hiding things, and maybe hooking up with people. And they’re not initiating with you at all. Because they are spending all their energy outside the marriage **Wendy:** Right, and actually one of the studies I looked at mentioned that withholding can be a form of abuse. **Anne:** That’s something the abuser will do. The abuser will say she’s withholding. She’s abusing me. But withholding is completely different than not having it with someone, because they are emotionally and psychologically unsafe. **Wendy:** Exactly. **Anne:** This is why this issue is so difficult with therapists or clergy or other people who don’t understand coercion. Is they’ll say, well, wife, you’re the abusive one because you are withholding. Then, because they believe men need it or they’re going to die or something. If you feel uncomfortable having it with him. That justifies him having it with prostitutes or multiple affairs. ## THE MYTH OF MALE “NEEDS” WHEN JUSTIFYING ABUSE **Anne:** A man will not die if he does not have it. If so, what, all boys would die instantly when they were 12 or something? **Wendy:** Right, yeah, it doesn’t make any sense. **Anne:** So when you feel unsafe and don’t want to have it, and so you don’t. Why would you want to be intimate with your [husband if he was yelling at you](https://www.btr.org/why-is-my-husband-yelling-at-me/), for example? The addict or the abuser will accuse you of withholding. You can’t be in a mutually beneficial relationship with someone who is coercive. I don’t love the word consent. You might’ve heard a podcast I did about it previously, where we talk about how consent isn’t exactly the right word to use. Abusers think it’s the yes that matters, not how they get the yes. So they’re willing to lie to you to get a yes. ![Coercive Control What It Looks Like in Marriage](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-To-Know-Before-Getting-Engaged-1.webp "What to Know Before Getting Engaged")**Wendy:** Personally, I didn’t realize that a mutual agreement between the partners about what they want needs to happen every time, and just because you’re in a relationship doesn’t automatically give consent. One of the things you talk about is safety. **Anne:** Yeah, safety is huge. If you want it to be mutually beneficial and emotionally and psychologically safe. Then you need to know the truth. That’s information you’d want to know just to be in a relationship with him, let alone have it with him. **Wendy:** Right, exactly. And there are lots of women that end up with an STD or an STI, and a lot of times the husband’s like, I don’t know how you got that. You got that from the toilet. You know, Anne, there’s one thing the National Domestic Violence Hotline website says sticks out. ## RECOGNIZING MANIPULATION **Wendy:** It’s not consent if you’re afraid or unable to say no. So it’s not consent if you’re manipulated, pressured, or threatened to say yes. It’s also not consent if you’re unable to legitimately give consent, which includes being asleep, unconscious, or under the influence of conscious altering substances like alcohol. Some prescription medications and other drugs. **Anne:** Or if he’s purposefully hiding information from you. If he’s lying to you, that’s manipulation. If you think he’ll sleep with someone else, if you don’t have it with him, that’s a threat. And If you think he’ll divorce you if you don’t have it with him, that’s a threat. If you think he’ll be sulky all day, if you don’t have it with him, that is a threat. So when it says manipulated, pressured or threatened. To see us think about all the different ways, they threaten us most of the time, extremely subtly. **Wendy:** Yes, that also goes on in the manipulation. Because they’re already manipulating you. I thought it was interesting, because a lot of times they just talk about the abuses and physical assaults. That’s what TV and movies show. They don’t show this other stuff. And so I thought it was really interesting that the National Domestic Violence Hotline includes that in their information about consent and abuse by coercion. **Anne:** Yeah, I received a review from a man who said this podcast wasn’t great. Because my definition of abuse is different than the standard definition. And it’s legit, the definition of coercion we use here is the basic definition of coercion that the National Domestic Violence Hotline uses. I think he just doesn’t want to admit that this can happen to women for years by their own husband and not know. ## RECOGNIZING MARITAL COERCION **Anne:** Here’s an example of how women don’t know they’re being harmed by this. I have a wonderful friend. She believes in not having it until marriage, and she was dating someone. And she said something about how she’d gone too far. I was like, what do you mean? And then she said, well, I don’t know. I didn’t want to have it. I kept saying, no, I tried not to, but then we did have it. and she just had this confused look on her face. And I told her what had been happening. And it was like I had punched her in the stomach. It was not until that moment that she realized this, and not just once. Multiple times over the three years she dated him. And I hugged her, and she backed away from me. She was obviously extremely traumatized, and this was a trauma response. And she was having maybe a panic attack. She was breathing heavily. She put her hands on the counter, and it took her a while to calm down. When she did, she said, I didn’t realize until this moment that my boyfriend had done this to me for three years. And so many women tell me the same story about what their husband chose to do to them. Most of the time when I talk to women before they realize what’s happening. I ask, are you being abused? They tell me no. We have a rough marriage, we have communication issues. We have intimacy issues. ## EDUCATING WOMEN ON EMOTIONAL ABUSE & COERCION **Wendy:** And I think it makes it harder, because my husband didn’t punch walls. If we got into an argument, he would shut down completely and keep it all in. And so it took me a while to realize that I had been abused. You know, there was gaslighting. He always minimized my feelings, because he didn’t think I should ever be angry about anything. It never dawned on me, I would have answered the same way. I would have said, no, I don’t think I’m being abused. **Anne:** We need to educate women about this type of abuse, so that women can have words for what’s happening to them. Many people discourage women from thinking their husband is abusive in this way. Because they’re worried about her reporting and then going through a very difficult legal situation. I don’t want anyone to think I am suggesting you report this. You can, if you would like, but the likelihood of him actually being prosecuted or pleading guilty is extremely remote. ## LEARNING ABOUT COERCIVE CONTROL If this discussion makes people uncomfortable because they’re like, well, then you have to report. Nothing about this episode is about reporting it. You don’t need to report it. I think knowing what’s happened to you is helpful for healing. The most important thing is that you know what happened. And, that you know the truth. And that’s why it’s so important for women to have a place where they can talk about it. Or talk about when they realized their husband had been doing this to them for years and they didn’t know. The question of whether you’re going to report it or not doesn’t even have to come into the discussion. I created [my workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/ "The Living Free Workshop") for women to know what strategic actions to take if they’re experiencing coercive control. ## SEEKING SUPPORT & HEALING **Wendy:** Finding somebody to talk to who is going to be supportive, that’s not going to say, “Well, you’re just making that up.” or “There’s no way, because he’s such a good guy.” Reaching out for support is helpful. Really, understanding what it is and what you’ve been through, and knowing that you’re not alone. I think those are the two biggest things that are helpful. **Anne:** Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. At [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/), your emotional and psychological safety. is our absolute top priority. Our coaches can help you process what you’ve been through and support you as you make your way to emotional safety. In whatever way that’s going to look like in your specific situation. Everybody’s journey looks different, and they’ll support you in what you decide. It’s just so important that when you go for help, you get it from a safe person. Wendy, thank you so much for contacting me. You are so brave, and you can talk about this difficult topic in such an unflinching way. It’s so important that we do. It’s one of the most important things to know about coercive control. And your example will help so many women. So thank you so much for the suggestion to talk about this and for being willing to share your story. I appreciate it so much. **Wendy:** Awesome, thanks for having me. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Here's What You Need to Know About Spousal Abandonment Syndrome](https://www.btr.org/spousal-abandonment-syndrome/) **Published:** April 24, 2026 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Many women in the BTR.ORG community face the trauma of abandonment. Chandra is on the BTR.ORG podcast sharing her story. **Content:** Spousal abandonment syndrome is a devastating, painful experience. If you find yourself grappling with your husband’s sudden abandonment of you and your family, you’re not alone. There are resources available to help you through it. ## WHAT IS SPOUSAL ABANDONMENT SYNDROME? Spousal abandonment syndrome occurs when a husband suddenly leaves the marriage without warning, explanation, or involving his wife in the decision-making process. This leaves the abandoned wife feeling betrayed, confused, and emotionally devastated. It’s important to recognize that such an event isn’t your fault. ## RECOGNIZING THE SIGNS OF SPOUSAL ABANDONMENT SYNDROME Signs of spousal abandonment syndrome may include: - You can’t eat - Insomnia - Hair loss - Achy, stiff muscles - Replaying conversations in your head - Re-evaluating memories now that you have more information Knowing that every woman who has been abandoned by her husband has similar symptoms can help women feel like they’re not going crazy. ## THE EMOTIONAL IMPACT OF SPOUSAL ABANDONMENT SYNDROME The emotional toll of spousal abandonment syndrome can be overwhelming. It’s not really a syndrome, so much as it’s what every woman would go through. It is essential to allow yourself to grieve and process these emotions. Think of the situation like you’re recovering from a serious, serious car accident that wasn’t your fault. You have injuries that need tender care, but you will heal. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YI6W-XKPSs8 ## STEPS TO HEALING AND RECOVERY 1. **Seek Support**: - Specialized services like [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/) are a safe space to explore your feelings and develop coping strategies. Only seek services from professionals like BTR.ORG who view abandonment as a domestic abuse issue. 2. **Connect with Supportive Communities**: - Joining the Betrayal Trauma Recovery community, a group of women who offer a sense of belonging and understanding. These spaces allow you to share experiences and receive guidance from those who’ve walked a similar path. Watch out for [abusive therapists](/abusive-therapist/) who victim blame. 3. **Focus on Self-Care**: - Prioritize activities that nurture your mind and body. Whether it’s a [Betrayal Trauma Recovery meditation](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) or simply going on a walk around the block. 4. **Educate Yourself**: - Learn more about this type of emotional and psychological abuse. Did you know it’s even a form of physical abuse because it affects your physical circumstances, like your living situation? To learn more, listen to the [FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast](https://www.btr.org/podcast/) where women share their stories about how they healed from abandonment. 5. **Rebuild Your Identity and Independence**: - Engage in activities that redefine who you are outside of the relationship. This can include pursuing new interests, focusing on career growth, or setting personal goals. ## RESOURCES TO SUPPORT YOU - **[Betrayal Trauma Recovery (BTR.ORG) offers Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/)** and individual coaching for women experiencing emotional and psychological abuse. BTR provides a supportive environment to help you heal and regain control of your life. - **[The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/)** includes 13 meditations that have helped thousands of victims relax and sleep. Experiencing spousal abandonment syndrome can be incredibly challenging, but recovery is possible. By seeking support from women who can help, you’ll regain strength and move toward a bright future. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma --- ### [Feeling Trapped in a Relationship: Here's What to Know](https://www.btr.org/feeling-trapped-in-a-relationship/) **Published:** April 24, 2026 **Author:** Anne **Content:** Women seeking help from BTR often say they’re feeling trapped in a relationship with their husband because they’ve been manipulated into situations where they can’t easily get help. Many of them have been groomed to believe he will take care of them while he’s simultaneously exploiting them and isolating them from people who can actually help when his mask drops. This dynamic is all too common and shockingly similar to the tactics that traffickers use to trap their victims. ## 7 WAYS YOUR HUSBAND KEEPS YOU FEELING TRAPPED IN A RELATIONSHIP ### 1. HE GAINS TRUST THROUGH MANIPULATION Exploitation is rarely, if ever clearly displayed at the beginning: “There’s a grooming process in it, making that person fall in love with them first.” Later, she specifically calls it “that manipulation of gaining trust.” ### 2. HE FINDS OR CREATES A VULNERABILITY ## UNDERSTANDING THE IMPACT OF HIS MANIPULATION The discovery that your husband has been manipulating you can trigger a spectrum of intense and very logical emotions: - **Fear** for your family’s safety and future. - **Rage** at the betrayal and violation of trust. - **Grief** for the loss of the relationship you thought you had. - **Shame** and **embarrassment** over the situation. - **Denial** and **avoidance** as coping mechanisms. - **Numbness** and **revulsion** at the nature of his choices. These feelings are valid and acknowledging them is a crucial step in your healing process. ## DECIDING TO DISCLOSE YOUR HUSBAND’S MANIPULATION Deciding whether to report your husband’s use of CSAM is a challenging decision. The fear of public exposure, potential damage to reputations, and concerns about financial stability can weigh heavily on your mind. It is important to remember that CSAM is not just a personal betrayal; it’s a serious crime that harms children and youth. Here are some considerations: - **Legal Implications**: Understand that possessing or distributing CSAM is illegal and carries severe penalties. - **Moral Responsibility**: Reporting may help protect children and prevent future harm. - **Personal Safety**: Consider what reporting means for your safety and your family’s well-being. Consulting with women who understand the complexity of this situation, such as a [betrayal trauma coach](https://www.btr.org/contact/), can provide guidance. Here’s what’s hard, if you’re not aware he’s doing this, you’ll be trying to make sense of why he’s cold and distant. Before they discover he’s doing this, many women say to themselves:[ I feel like my husband is cheating](/feel-like-my-husband-is-cheating/). ## SAFETY MEASURES WHEN FEELING TRAPPED IN A RELATIONSHIP The aftermath of discovering your husband’s involvement with CSAM is an emotionally taxing period. Here are some steps that can help you regain stability and begin healing: 1. **Seek Professional Support**: Engaging with women who understand like a confidential [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coach](https://www.btr.org/group/) can be invaluable. BTR.ORG offers group sessions and one-on-one support designed for women facing similar challenges. 2. **Connect with Others**: Joining communities of women who have been through similar experiences, like the [daily Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/) can provide comfort and understanding. Sharing stories and strategies can empower you to take positive steps forward. 3. **Prioritize Self-Care**: Focus on activities that promote your mental and physical well-being. This might include meditation, exercise, or simply taking time for yourself to relax and process your emotions. 4. **Educate Yourself**: Understanding more about betrayal trauma and the psychological impact of discovering a partner’s illegal activities can give you greater clarity and strength. Listen to the [FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast](https://www.btr.org/podcast/). ![Watch Out for This Kind Of Addict!!](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/QyZ6Qm8JwzE/maxresdefault.jpg) ## MOVING FORWARD WITH SUPPORT While the road ahead may seem daunting, know that healing is possible. Organizations like Betrayal Trauma Recovery (BTR.ORG) are committed to providing the necessary tools and support to help you rebuild your life. They offer a range of resources, including: - [**Group Sessions** that allow you to connect with others and share experiences.](https://www.btr.org/group/) - [**Individual Sessions** for personalized guidance.](https://www.btr.org/individual/) - [**Educational Workshops** designed to empower you with strategies to face what to do next.](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) Surrounding yourself with supportive women will help you redefine your future and heal. Facing the reality of a husband’s involvement with CSAM is a painful and complex situation. However, by taking informed steps and accessing appropriate support, you can begin to heal from the trauma and reclaim your peace. [The BTR.ORG Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/ "Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group") are a safe place for you to process this trauma. Attend a session TODAY. Understanding trafficking dynamics can help women recognize why his emotional abuse can feel so psychologically impossible to untangle. That’s why I interviewed Dr. Stephany Powell, an expert who spent decades working with trafficking victims through the LAPD and the National Center on Sexual Exploitation. ## TRANSCRIPT: THE SURPRISING TRUTH ABOUT FEELING TRAPPED IN A RELATIONSHIP **Anne:** I have Dr. Stephanie Powell on today’s episode. She is Vice President and Director of Law Enforcement Training and Survivor Services at the National Center on Sexual Exploitation. Dr. Powell gained insight into exploitation and trafficking through her 30 years with the Los Angeles Police Department, coupled with her passion for education and her heart for community. She’s an incredible leader who uses her considerable skills and insight to educate the community about the complex and often misunderstood world of trafficking. And to create positive change for victims. She’s a powerful speaker, tenacious educator, advocate for change, and one of the premier experts in this field. She’s been featured on CNN and local media in the Los Angeles area. We will be talking about trafficking examples. Welcome, Dr. Powell. **Dr. Powell:** Yes, thank you so much for having me. **Anne:** On social media, we saw a post from Fight the New Drug, where you talked about how trafficking is not only when victims are held against their will, and a lot of people don’t understand that. So can you start with the definition of trafficking? **Dr. Powell:** Well, when we talk about trafficking, it needs to be understood that when you’re under the age of 18, and someone has used you, by age alone, you’re automatically considered a victim of trafficking. In a court of law, if you’re over 18 years of age, you have to prove fraud or coercion. I think what happens oftentimes is that people only think of trafficking victims with the force and the fraud, because sometimes that coercion piece is a little hard to understand because people go, well, why didn’t they just leave? ## HOW HE USES EMOTIONAL BONDS TO TRAP YOU **Dr. Powell:** What needs to be understood is that there is an emotional bond that one may have with their trafficker. So that emotional bond may be because their trafficker was a boyfriend or family member. It’s like brainwashing. I’m coercing you because if you leave, something bad will happen to somebody you love. And by the way, this is your fault anyway, because you chose to do this. So that’s what human trafficking looks like. Someone can enter at the age of 11 or 12, but someone can also enter at the age of 21. It’s not so much where people will think it only happens with children. It happens with adults. **Anne:** When you say any commercial act of someone younger than 18, that age automatically says this is a victim of trafficking. Could that be perhaps a boyfriend and a girlfriend? Let’s say they’re 17. Let’s say he’s got a camera, and then he records her and posts it online without her knowledge. Under any circumstances, if she’s under 18, is that a commercial trafficking example? **Dr. Powell:** It could be considered a commercial act if they’re getting money by the posting, but by the mere posting of itself and they’re under the age of 18, you’re looking at CSAM. **Anne:** Right, child abuse material. **Dr. Powell:** Yes. **Anne:** So do you find that some children under 18 unknowingly participate in trafficking? They don’t realize what is going on? **Dr. Powell:** Yes, under the age of 18, they could be unknowingly participating in, CSAM. ## THE DANGERS OF SHARING IMAGES **Dr. Powell:** So that’s why when I talk to teenagers, I tell them, if you’re sharing pictures that you wouldn’t want to share with your grandmother, once you push send, you don’t have any control over that picture. The person who told you they would not share it with anybody else could possibly share it with somebody else. So unfortunately, that image has gone viral. **Anne:** And they can also post it without your consent or without your permission anywhere online for non commercial or commercial purposes. **Dr. Powell:** Exactly. And then the scary part is that once it goes to one source, other sources can scrape it off, and that’s how it ends up going viral. The image could now be on different social media sites. **Anne:** In several cases, I’ve heard of women who are married and their husband records them without their knowledge. And they don’t find this out for sometimes years. Then they also find out that he has been posting these videos of them perhaps in their bedrooms or in their shower online for profit. She has been trafficked in her own home by her own husband. Can you talk more about why this is one of the trafficking examples and why it’s so dangerous for women? **Dr. Powell:** That photo or video has been used for commercial acts and exploitation. Unfortunately, women may blame themselves. If only I had known. Really, understanding that it’s not your fault. You’ve been exploited. Someone took advantage of you. The worst part, it was somebody they trusted. When it’s somebody you trusted that used you in that way. ## VICTIM BLAMING & SELF-WORTH IN TRAFFICKING **Dr. Powell:** It’s no different than a victim of trafficking dealing with a trafficker or a pimp. Because many times those women, it was their boyfriend that pimped them out, they got talked into it. The bottom line is, it could make one feel worthless. What I want to say to them is, you did what you were supposed to do. You trusted the person closest to you. You were a wife. And this is no fault of your own. It is something they did. Meaning the husband, that shouldn’t have been done. **Anne:** In your experience with the LAPD, did you ever see any cases like this? And if you did, what types of legal ramifications were there for victims when their husband was the trafficker? **Dr. Powell:** I have had cases where the husband was the trafficker and he was pimping out his wife. **Anne:** Did it make it harder to prosecute when she was married to him? Were there complications due to the relationship? **Dr. Powell:** When it is a husband or a boyfriend, there is an emotional bond. Because of that emotional bond, oftentimes women did not want to testify. It’s no different than when you’re dealing with domestic violence. Where they felt that what their husband did to them was wrong. But they don’t want to see them go to jail. They don’t want to see them punished. And the woman ends up taking the hit, meaning I will sacrifice myself. I’ll just deal with my own pain internally, but I don’t want to see anything happen to him. **Anne:** At least from the women I’ve observed, they wonder if he can get better or get treatment and not be that way anymore. ## EXPLOITATION & EMOTIONAL MANIPULATION **Anne:** So in testifying against it, or even taking the evidence to authorities to have him charged. They don’t want to do that just in case he’s going to get better. Then they can stay married, and their family can stay together. For you feel love toward him. But for him, it was an opportunity to exploit you, and he’s been exploiting you in that way and probably a bunch of other ways. Perhaps you should consider it an opportunity for exploitation. And maybe talk about what exploitation is in these trafficking examples. **Dr. Powell:** In this circumstance, the exploitation is that somebody took videos without someone’s knowledge and exploited them by benefiting from it financially. Or share it for comments or whatever it may be. It’s using an individual. Sure, there are women who do not want to see that person go to jail, because they think they might get better. And we’ve all been through something. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) It may not be that, but as women, we’ve been through something where we stay with a person and think they’re going to get better. **Anne:** Yeah, an example I’ve been using lately is the idea of someone with a severe contagious disease, like Ebola . They’re saying, I want to be in close proximity to you, because I want to ensure that our family stays together. You would be like, you need to stay away from me, because if you’re close to me, I could get this infectious disease. I will interact with you again when you are completely healed and there’s no danger. ## THE IMPORTANCE OF SELF-PRESERVATION WHEN FEELING TRAPPED IN A RELATIONSHIP **Anne:** Can he get better? That isn’t the question that I think victims should ask or survivors should ask. With Ebola, are they currently safe enough to be in close proximity? Is this person non contagious right now? Not, can they get better? If they’re telling you all the right things, and doing all the right things to groom you and exploit you. That is dangerous for women in these trafficking examples. **Dr. Powell:** With the Ebola example, it’s not him telling you I’m safe. The idea of it’s safe, not coming from the person who’s infected, because that’s the same person that says, I won’t do this again. And then they do it again. Sometimes we don’t want to hear this, but you got to look out for yourself. I think we’re taught as women that unconditional love is important to be a wife. You always put your husband first. We got to reserve a little bit for ourselves. I can’t give you everything and then have nothing of my own. **Anne:** Acknowledging that it is your life. It’s your life. Your life is not actually about him. It’s about yourself. And if you choose to share it with him, that’s fine, but you don’t owe him anything. It’s not like your two circulatory systems are combined, and if you get some physical distance from this person, he’s going to drop dead. You are your own person, and this is your life. If you choose to share it with him, it does not necessarily mean he’s become part of you, even though it feels like it. ## RECOGNIZING MANIPULATION & GROOMING ISN’T A “BOND” **Anne:** Especially when women separate, and me included, it seemed like I was cutting my own leg off. It felt awful, but I did survive. My circulatory system was not combined with his. You’re the only person who will advocate for your life the way you will, because you’re the only person whose life it is. Especially when your life could be one of the trafficking examples. **Dr. Powell:** Yeah, absolutely. At the end of the day, you are all that you have. And if you give everything of yourself to a person, when that person walks out the door, they have taken all of you with them. And if you don’t have enough of you to get strength, it’s going to be devastating. I’m not coming from a standpoint of, this is easy. It’s not easy. And it goes back to, you did what you were supposed to do. In terms of loving and trusting someone you wanted to spend your life with. You did your part. They didn’t do their part. And understanding that, what I think is important, ladies, is you are the prize. Thank you, they messed up, they tried to crush the prize, so at the end of the day, even though you may feel it’s your loss. It really is their loss. And you probably won’t feel this way at first. But you’re going to be fine, because you kept you intact. In terms of my experience when I first ran my vice unit. I thought when I saw the women walking up and down the street, I assumed they were there because they wanted to be there. ## THE REALITY OF EXPLOITATION **Dr. Powell:** But when I started working with them, not only in my law enforcement end. But in the advocate end of it, I quickly learned. These women were doing it because, and I’m going to talk about the ones who felt they had a relationship, because I think people can understand this. I’m talking about the ones who, it was their husbands or their boyfriends. They were in love with them and bought into, I’m doing this for them. I’m doing it for us. They’re in love. That’s one lesson I learned. Love is a strong emotion that can get people to do almost anything. And we always hear these stories. But it’s so true. Not everybody out there is out there because they choose to be out there in and of itself. You choose to be out there when you don’t have any other choice. But some of them were in love with these guys because they had lost themselves. In that other person. And so when you see it from that view, it helps you understand from the lens of a woman where there’s that commonality. If you’ve ever been in love and burnt. So I learned that these women were no different from me. We may have made other choices, but when it came to falling in love with the wrong person, they were no different than me. **Anne:** They were in that situation due to [marital coercion](https://www.btr.org/what-is-marital-coercion/ "marital coercion"). Through no fault of their own, through thinking they were doing something for their spouse or their boyfriend. Can you talk about the logic of that? Was it like they needed money? And so he was like, this is a good way for us to get money, babe in these trafficking examples? ## THE GROOMING PROCESS **Anne:** If you do this, we can earn enough money to buy a house, for me, that doesn’t seem super logical. Could you help put together the pieces of how they would coerce them into thinking that? Being exploited and physically putting themselves in danger, having it with multiple people for money, what would be of benefit to her. **Dr. Powell:** It doesn’t start like that. There’s a grooming process in it, making that person fall in love with them first. A pimp once said, when he meets a girl, he’ll find a weakness. If he can’t find a weakness, he will create one. So, finding that weakness may be that you need someone to tell you that you’re pretty. Or you need to be in a relationship. There’s everything you need. Until, it goes sideways. So they have them fall in love with them first. And then they broach the idea of, I’ve given you all these things, now I’m running out of money, if you could just do this one time for us. Then that one time becomes two times, it’s not because they want to have it with all these men. It’s because now they’re in a position where they don’t want that man to leave them. Or if they leave them, that’s what I was talking about, resources. They don’t have anything else, no family, no education and no job. All being in the name of love. I would assume the same woman who knows their husband watches exploitative material, and think, eh, I don’t like it. That’s what he does. No harm, no foul until he starts taking pictures of her and uploading it. And she is one of the trafficking examples. ## SHE DOESN’T NEED THERAPY FOR TRAUMA BONDING **Dr. Powell:** He doesn’t start that way for the most part. It’s that manipulation of gaining trust. Here’s a good example: that guy we fall in love with, and your mother, your family members, and sisters say he’s not the one. And we will argue all the reasons why he’s the one. Until we figure out that he’s not, and then the question becomes, now is it too late? So if you can understand that, you can understand this. **Anne:** The grooming is important, because in these trafficking examples, that was the trafficker’s intention the entire time. He wanted her to fall in love with him, so that she would be loyal, so that she would be willing to do what he wanted. So that he could exploit her. In that case, her thinking, okay, I’m doing this for us. She does not realize that. It’s never been about “us.” But the grooming occurred to exploit her, and that is how it has always been. There’s never going to be a time when you earned “enough money” to purchase that car for us. Then he says, Oh, great, I appreciate it. Now that we have our car, we can get decent upstanding jobs. I will go to school, we’ll move into a house with a white picket fence. You never have to do that again. That’s not the end goal they have. She’s chasing peace and being settled, but never getting there. Because that’s not his goal. In these trafficking examples, their goal is to make money. **Dr. Powell:** Yeah, can you imagine how hurtful that could be? Or, if we’re talking about the situation that maybe some of your listeners are in, when he gets caught. Because he’s uploaded a video. ## THE PAIN OF FEELING TRAPPED IN A RELATIONSHIP **Dr. Powell:** Then he tells you I’m not going to do it again. You hope and pray that he doesn’t, and you believe him. But when he tells you that he knows he’s going to do it again. He just doesn’t want you to leave, because there might be kids or he might lose half his pension. But he knew when he told you he’s not going to do it again, that he’s going to do it again. He just doesn’t want you to leave. **Anne:** Because if you leave, he cannot exploit you anymore. He wants you feeling trapped in a relationship. **Dr. Powell:** Absolutely. **Anne:** Because he groomed you to exploit you in the first place. He’s not going to want you to leave, because then he’ll lose access to exploiting you. From my point of view, and I did this, so this is common. I want all the women listening who have done this, because I’m pretty sure everyone has, to not feel bad. When I say this, please take a deep breath and be like, okay, this is what everyone has done. To recognize the things happening and be concerned about it. And then take this list of, hey, it’s not okay that you use exploitative material. I feel uncomfortable when you scream in my face. I feel uncomfortable that you leave for periods of time, and I’m not sure where you’re going. And give their abuser a list. What I have seen is that he is like, thank you. I did not know where the loopholes were, didn’t understand where I was not grooming well enough. I appreciate you giving me this list, because now I can groom you by making sure I tell you where I’m going. ## SAFETY & OBSERVATION **Anne:** Even though I’m lying, I can make sure you never find out I use exploitative material. It’s basically a list of how to groom me. So when I talk to victims, one of my thoughts is always to say safety is the top priority. Give yourself emotional and psychological space, and observe from a safe distance to see what he’s doing. So we don’t end up as one of the sex trafficking examples. But you don’t need to tell him. You don’t need to say, hey, I saw you doing this. I’d like you to stop, because then he’d be like, oh, I didn’t realize my mask was cracked. I’m going to make sure to put some super glue right there. So she can’t see through it, but he’s going to continue doing the same things behind the mask. **Dr. Powell:** The interesting thing about that is that at the time those conversations are happening, he may not realize what he’s learning. Until he starts to use it, because he knows you so well in the universal you. What’s also interesting about that is aren’t we taught in terms of being in relationships with others that we’re supposed to communicate? It’s almost like a gamble. I know I’m supposed to communicate. I know I’m supposed to say that when you do this, this hurts me. In the hopes that because I’ve told you, you won’t do it anymore. Not that you’re going to bank it and put it in your toolkit for grooming purposes. So I think it goes back to what we were saying earlier, because we can’t go around life not communicating and then expecting to be in a good relationship, right? ## TRAFFICKING IS A MALE-DOMINATED CRIME **Dr. Powell:** So even though I’ve told you that when you do such and such, this hurts me. Now I see that you have now used that against me. I can say, okay, I gave you that information. You used it against me. So that means I need to go. Realizing that regardless of whether we have someone in our life or don’t, we’re going to be okay. When I was in law enforcement, I came on when there weren’t that many females. And there were a lot of obstacles. But I had this saying on my desk that I actually heard from Oprah Winfrey. It is, what you say about me is none of my business. What you say about me is none of my business. In other words, I can’t invest in that negativity. **Anne:** You worked your way up and became a leader in the LAPD, I would love to hear what you learned as a woman in that environment. Would you mind sharing the ways that you built up your own confidence in the face of men who didn’t think you deserved to be there? **Dr. Powell:** With the Los Angeles Police Department, I joined in 1983, and there weren’t that many women. I was an African American woman, so I was often told I had two strikes against me. I’ll never forget the day I walked into my first police station, and one of the training officers looked at me and he says, you have three strikes against you. You’re black, you’re female, and you’re short. ## OVERCOMING OBSTACLES IN THE LAPD **Dr. Powell:** And the first thing that popped in my head was, and I said this to him, wow, those are three things I can’t do anything about, but I’m here. Keep in mind, I was like 25 years old. What it taught me was that I can’t do anything about what you think. All I can do is be the best I can be. What I also realize is that they were afraid of me being female and short. That I would not be able to handle myself in the field [dealing with bad](https://www.btr.org/treating-body-image-issues-after-betrayal/) guys, and I wouldn’t be able to protect them. And so once I proved that, the issues started to diminish a little bit, but every time I went to another station, it would be the same thing. You know, society has taught us as women that we may not be smart enough or we’re too little. We’re too frail, it’s just like we’re never enough. And that’s why I keep saying that we have to tell ourselves and our daughters that we are enough. Someone else doesn’t determine whether you are enough. You’ve got to realize that you are enough. And walk into that room with confidence, if it’s a man who wants an equal partnership and wants somebody confident and not afraid of your confidence. That’s what you want. Not someone who’s figuring out a way to manipulate you, and use you for trafficking. You know, another thing that I also realize is that sometimes people will stand on top of you to make them taller. And if that’s the case, you need not be that footstool. ## EXPLOITATION & MANIPULATION **Anne:** Isn’t that, in a nutshell, the definition of exploitation, using someone else for your own gain? You’re not so concerned about them, but you’re just trying to use them. **Dr. Powell:** Absolutely, standing on top of them to make you better. If this has happened to you, it doesn’t mean you weren’t smart enough. You should have seen it. Don’t blame yourself. It’s not because you’re dumb. If anything, it was because you were open enough and vulnerable enough. And you loved enough that happened. So it’s not you. It’s the person who is doing the manipulating. They’re at fault, not you. So stay who you are. Just know that not everybody deserves your love and openness. **Anne:** And you don’t owe it to them either. I mean, many men will give women the impression that because you’re a woman, you owe it to society, to men, to be “nice.” Or to act or look a certain way. This happens in [narcissistic abuse in marriage](https://www.btr.org/how-to-deal-with-narcissistic-abuse-in-marriage/ "narcissistic abuse in marriage"). I had a man tell me, you’re too cute to be single. And I was like, so my cuteness is for men, apparently? It’s not just for me? So apparently you have to be owned or on someone’s arm to make your cuteness worthwhile? I can’t just be cute by myself. I found that to be telling of how women should act or what they should be like. Rather than thinking, I don’t need to date even if I am cute. What are you talking about? What does that have to do with anything? Why is it any of your business what I’m doing with my cuteness? ## SOCIETAL EXPECTATIONS OF WOMEN FUELS TRAFFICKING **Anne:** Women tend to want to be liked, we want to fit in. So using those social norms to coerce us to say, hey, you’re supposed to be service oriented. Rather than realizing that women don’t always have to make choices that sacrifice their own well-being for other people. One thing that has helped women is reading [scriptures on betrayal](https://www.btr.org/scriptures-on-betrayal/ "scriptures on betraya") and harm. **Dr. Powell:** Yeah, you’re not other people’s property. You’re not. So what if you’re not married? So what if you don’t have a boyfriend? It doesn’t make you any lesser of a person, but society will make it seem that way. You’re cute. Why are you single? What’s wrong with you? There’s nothing wrong with me. I have standards. People have to earn my trust and love. Ladies, I’m no different than you. I am a work in progress. Many things I’ve learned personally and professionally have been because of bumps and bruises, not in the physical sense. Some of us learn this way. Some of us learn ahead of time. The bottom line is whatever has happened to you. It’s not your fault that you may have been trafficked. You learn from it, you move forward. But what I want to impress upon everyone is, be you, be your loving self, and just know that not everyone deserves your loving self. **Anne:** Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us today. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma --- ### [When Your Husband Is Constantly Angry: What It Really Means](https://www.btr.org/husband-is-constantly-angry/) **Published:** April 28, 2026 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Here's what's going on if your husband is constantly angry. **Content:** If your husband is constantly angry, you’ve probably tried everything to calm the tension. You stay kind, patient, careful, and endlessly understanding. But what if his irritation and outbursts still never make sense? When his anger erupts out of nowhere, it can function as a tactic to control you. Sudden anger knocks you off balance and makes you doubt yourself. It quietly trains you to walk on eggshells. The more unpredictable he becomes, the more power his anger holds over your choices, your home, and your peace. This pattern feels confusing for many women. He often cycles back to being sweet, apologetic, or even tender. That emotional whiplash erodes your instincts. You start wondering if you imagined the problem, if he is “just stressed,” or if you somehow caused the tension. If you are wondering about emotional abuse take our[ free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ## WHY YOUR HUSBAND IS CONSTANTLY ANGRY: THE HIDDEN PURPOSE BEHIND HIS RAGE **Anne:** Today’s guest, Faith, a member of our community, experienced her husband’s anger and she tried everything she could to help him. Here’s part of her story. **Faith:** His yelling and everything just got to be so much and I thought [why is my husband yelling at me?](https://www.btr.org/why-is-my-husband-yelling-at-me/) We went to two different Christian counselors. I remember very distinctly, this is not helping. It was like trying to dissect my childhood. And I don’t understand how this is on me when my husband is constantly angry. **Anne:** If your husband’s anger makes no sense, listen up. Maybe something little sets him off, something that didn’t set him off yesterday or the day before. Or maybe it comes out of nowhere. Like he says, you have the wrong tone, or you used the wrong word. And no matter how calm or kind you are in your attempt to avoid pushing his buttons. He’s still irritated, snappy, or raging, blaming you for something. ## CONTROL, THE REAL REASON FOR HIS ANGER **Anne:** A lot of women tell me they thought their husband’s anger was about work, stress, financial pressure, but underneath those “reasons”, there’s usually something deeper going on. If he’s constantly angry, his frustration isn’t about any of those things. It’s actually about control. For example, he might use anger to shut down your questions when he hides secret spending or late night behavior he doesn’t wanna explain. He might use it to make you doubt yourself, so you stop suspecting something’s wrong. Or train you to stay quiet, careful, and small, because that keeps him in charge. And just when you start to notice the pattern, he switches. He’s nice again, apologetic, sweet. The man you thought you married. So of course you’re gonna think things are getting better or it won’t happen again. But that’s part of how the lies work. When your husband is constantly angry, his anger controls you through fear, and his apology controls you through hope. Faith lived through this pattern.. From the start of our marriage, his anger got worse. And every time she tried to help, the focus somehow shifted back to her, her childhood, her reactions, her supposed part of the problem. Like so many women, she kept asking, what am I doing wrong? She tried everything, counseling, caregiving, and prayer. While he twisted her every effort to keep her confused about what was going on. ## TRANSCRIPT: WHEN YOUR HUSBAND IS CONSTANTLY ANGRY **Anne:** Faith, welcome. **Faith:** Thank you Anne, it’s good to be here. **Anne:** So let’s start with your story. **Faith:** I met my husband in the summer. He was a member of my faith community. And while we were dating, I ignored so many [silent red flags in our relationship](https://www.btr.org/silent-red-flags-in-a-relationship/). I actually even know he had mentioned that he used porn at somebody else’s home, that was a Christian family. And it just all seemed so weird to me. **Anne:** He’s part of your faith community, what did you think of him at that time? **Faith:** He was very dynamic, very outgoing. I actually knew that I was lowering my standards as far as some of the things I was looking for by being with him. I knew he had sexual partners prior to me. And that was something important to me. I didn’t want to marry someone who was already sexually active. So I lowered that standard. But I don’t understand why my husband is constantly angry. He drank, he smoked. All those things I wasn’t looking for. But I felt like God wanted me to be with him. Maybe if I influenced and impacted him and his life. Then he would also be a better person. **Anne:** Let’s talk about the manipulation from the very beginning for a minute. ## THE MANIPULATION BEGINS **Anne:** Thinking back, when you’re going through it, you don’t recognize this. So this is not something that you would’ve known then. You didn’t do anything wrong, and you were doing the best you could. So when I say this, I’m actually trying to look more at his behaviors than what you were doing. Was there something he did in the beginning to manipulate you to think that? The reason I’m asking is, ’cause in the beginning a lot of men will say things like, “You’re so incredible. You make me a better person. You’re such a good example.” **Faith:** Well, he did make comments like, I was a good example in his life. **Anne:** That’s just something that I wanna point out to women. Sometimes you think that it was like a failing on your part, but it’s manipulation on their part from the very beginning. And knowing that helps you heal. ‘Cause you’re like, wait a minute, I didn’t do anything wrong. Part of what we’re going through is trying to realize what actually happened. **Faith:** We actually broke up twice while dating. We argued a lot, and there were several times that I just couldn’t do it anymore. And again, I felt ignored. There was a lot of anger in him. I always wanted to marry and start a family, I was very young when I met him. I was probably about 19 and I just felt like starting over. This sounds ridiculous, at 21, 22, would just set me back in my timeline. I still felt strongly that I was supposed to be with him. There were some weird, quirky things that we had in common that I took as signs that we should be together. I didn’t see the [signs of a toxic relationship](/signs-of-a-toxic-relationship/). ## PATTERNS OF CONTROL WHEN A HUSBAND IS CONSTANTLY ANGRY **Anne:** Did those end up being true later or was he mirroring? **Faith:** I don’t think that they were enough reason to marry a person, looking back. We had the same first birthday cake, smash cake. We grew up for the first year of our lives on the same street, and didn’t even know it. It was just very weird. **Anne:** Like it felt cosmic at the time. **Faith:** But really silly now. It was a whirlwind. I guess I just got caught up in him. Everything became about him. I just thought my husband is constantly angry at me, and it was always something that I did. And I remember one instance where we were at church together, but he was separate from me. He was standing towards the back and I just motioned for him. It was natural to me to just motion and like point to where he could sit next to me. And he became livid with just that simple action, acting like I was treating him like a dog, telling him where to sit. There was an instance where he was very angry. He had an old car that didn’t have air conditioning. He refused to put the windows down for me. We weren’t far from my house, so I remember vividly. I will suck it up. And I’m not letting him know that this gets to me. I could not breathe in the car. ## I ALWAYS TOOK BLAME FOR HIS ANGER **Anne:** Back then, did you think it was you when your husband is constantly angry? Like if you were different then he wouldn’t be angry, or did you just think like he’s a little crazy? **Faith:** No, I always viewed it as me. That I made a mistake or I did something, or I did too much, or I was too much. **Anne:** The whole time you’re trying to improve the situation, you’re doing what any good person would do. You’re like, how can I improve our relationship? So can you talk about the things you tried? It could be anywhere from wearing makeup, to going to couple therapy, to making dinner. It could be any one of various things that we try. Would you take us through all that? Before you discovered his lies. **Faith:** When he proposed to me. He wanted a quick turnaround. We were engaged for about a year and a half. I actually had some cold feet. But like everything is paid for, and I just kept pushing through. And I got a job and moved out, and he was gonna then move in with me once we were married. Automatically that set me up as a provider. Once we were married, it was about five months in, he worked in a cemetery. He fell into a grave and hurt his back very badly. **Anne:** Wow, that’s kind of an intense story, sorry. I fell into a grave. **Faith:** I should also include that I got pregnant right away. There were conversations about him wanting to have a child and immediate. ## CONFLICT ABOUT WHEN TO HAVE CHILDREN **Faith:** And it was like, no, we should wait. Just get used to being married and being with one another first. I ended up pregnant, and I honestly don’t know how. I don’t know as far as birth control and stuff like that goes. It was a surprise, it was a shock. So here we are, probably a month and a half into our marriage, I find out I’m pregnant. And then five months in, he is hurt. And I’m his caregiver. I can barely even put on my own socks, and I’m having to shower him, wash him, put on his socks, and take him to therapy. And he was on medication. And so I started to blame everything on the medication. I ignored all the signs prior to that. But the medication seemed to make everything worse. I called the police to my house before, because of his verbal aggression. My husband is constantly angry and he’s yelling, and everything just got so much worse. Even after we had our baby, it was awful. [My in-laws are emotionally abusive](/in-laws-are-emotionally-abusive/). We actually went to our church. And our pastor recommended a Christian counselor. So we went to two different Christian counselors. I remember first a male and then a female. And I honestly don’t remember, it’s been so long that I don’t remember why we made the switch. But I remember very distinctly, this is not helping. It was like trying to dissect my childhood and stuff like that. And I don’t understand how this is becoming turned around on me when my husband is constantly angry. ## MANIPULATION CONTINUES WITH OUTBURSTS OF ANGER WHEN YOUR HUSBAND IS CONSTANTLY ANGRY **Faith:** So there were several more outbursts, I would say. I don’t remember what we were fighting about. Our daughter was probably about three years old, and I had her in the shower. He was so angry that he ripped the shower head from the shower. It was one of those hanging ones. I could no longer rinse her or anything like that. Then he left. I didn’t know where he went. That was probably the last outburst I remember as a big fight. And then I think I just learned I’m not gonna push his buttons. Like if I remain calm and stop being the trigger for his anger, then he won’t be angry. **Anne:** That is so hard, because none of us realize this, that is a form of control. So you’re then living in this box or this glass house a little bit or something. These parameters that you can’t cross, because those are the ones he set up. He built it around you, without you even realizing what had happened. So that you’re limited in what you can do, what you can say, and what you can express. He built all those limitations around you, manipulating you through his anger, because your husband is constantly angry. And that’s not how we view it when we’re going through it. Because we view it as like, if I don’t do this, he won’t get angry. Rather than he got angry on purpose about these things in order to control me. So that control that you were living under, of course you did not realize it. Was he calling you controlling? How was he lying about you at this time? **Faith:** I definitely know that there were times where he was saying that I was questioning him too much. ## CALLING THE POLICE DIDN’T HELP **Anne:** The questioning him too much is very common for someone who’s lying a lot. Then your husband is constantly angry. Because they don’t want a lot of questions. They’re very annoying to liars. **Faith:** Honestly, I can’t remember even what caused the fights. He makes sure now, he even told our kids, that I hit him three times. I do remember fighting him once, I don’t even think I would call it a slap. I think it was more like a push away kind of swat. But I always recognized that I was becoming someone I didn’t like. Regardless of what was going on in the relationship. And I also wanna mention that I learned pretty quickly. He punched a hole in a door. He had threatened verbally to bury me in my backyard. At that point, I did call the police, and he would go outside and wait for them to come. And looking back on that, I can see where police would come see a calm man, and the irrational, crazy woman is in the house, so upset, emotionally distraught. Eventually I also learned not to even call them. Several times it was offered to me to file a PFA, but I knew it would be over. And at that point I think I was in protection of children mode. I knew that if, I filed a PFA… **Anne:** For our listeners who aren’t aware of what a PFA is, could you define that? **Faith:** It’s an order of protection from abuse. And my husband told me that if I did that, the relationship would be over. There would be no repairing it. And to have a young child in that, I felt very protective of her. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## HOW ANGER, APOLOGY, AND CONTROL CREATE A CYCLE OF CONFUSION **Faith:** He was military background, military trained, and so he could disappear with her. There was a strong desire to keep my family together. And a religious belief that was anti-divorce, like divorce was not in the vocabulary. **Anne:** Did you do any other counseling other than the Christian counseling that you talked about? **Faith:** No, at some point I called our female counselor late at night one night. And talked with her over the phone because I was so upset. It seemed like I’m just tattling on him and getting no help. It’s not helping. And then, like I said, there was a period where things calmed. It actually seemed like it improved. I tricked myself into thinking everything healed, because his anger lessened. We actually had another child. During that time, I would’ve categorized our relationship as pretty good. There were still gaps. There were still things like he was staying up late at night, not going to bed with me. We weren’t communicating that great. There were missing things. There were pieces of the puzzle of our relationship. It seemed like a big hole that I could not fill. I couldn’t figure out what it was. So we went to Family Life Weekend to Remember, one geared just to us. Then we went back and volunteered. When we volunteered, I thought, and this is it. We could be like a power couple and tell what our story was and how we got through it. How we came about healing, and that was not true at all. ## FINANCIAL ABUSE TAKES OFF WHEN YOUR HUSBAND IS CONSTANTLY ANGRY **Anne:** He was good at pretending and playing the part. **Faith:** Yes, and we would come home from those things, like we would learn all of these ways of connection and we would come home from those things and he might get up in the morning and gimme a hug before I left for work the next day. And then nothing after that. I just felt like an invisible person in my own home. **Anne:** And at this time when your husband is constantly angry, were you still the sole provider? **Faith:** Yes, I have always been the primary breadwinner. He eventually owned his own business after he got fired. It was a couple years after he started his own business where financial abuse took off. It became apparent that he was paying himself into our joint account for a couple of years. And then suddenly, he actually didn’t discuss it with me. He said, I opened up my own account. And that’s to protect us in case I am sued by anybody.They can’t come after what we have. They can only come after what I have. But that was very much part of what he spent on things. His money was his money. And my money was our money. **Anne:** Our money, these stories unfortunately all have similar patterns. So I’m guessing, it’s so typical of a man who lies like this. Who’s taking these steps to protect his lies, that the next thing that happens is that you find something out. I’m not sure if that’s where you were going. ## HOW HE USED ANGER TO COVER HIS LIES AND CONFUSE THE TRUTH **Faith:** Yes, I was. **Anne:** Okay, so let’s talk about that. Like how did you find out what he actually did with his unaccounted for time? **Faith:** So ironically, I was going to counseling with my pastor at the time, me individually because something feels off. [Feel off, meaning](https://www.btr.org/feel-off-meaning/) I feel like something is wrong. Something was missing, and it had to be within me. It was my problem to deal with. And so I came home from a counseling session. It probably would’ve been around the fall, Which was the same time my mom was diagnosed with cancer. So all kinds of things in my own personal life are going on. And my husband tells me point blank that he no longer loves me anymore. But he’ll still protect me and die for me. So I take that as a twist on scripture, because in our faith, the man is to be the protector. And I was devastated to hear that. Then shortly after that he told me that he had an issue with porn and that he needed me to help him with that. **Anne:** What did he say? What lie did he tell, that you needed to help him with? Was it that you needed to give him sex when he wanted, so he didn’t look at porn. How, did he lie to you in that way to manipulate you? **Faith:** The fact that I had a low drive. I wasn’t giving him enough, so I needed to be there for him when he needed me, So that he didn’t view porn. ## FINDING OUT ABOUT HIM BETRAYING ME **Anne:** Was this backed up by like the pastor or therapist or anyone else that enabled this type of lie to take root? **Faith:** I honestly don’t know. Because at this point, I was going to talk with someone. But we were not seeing anyone together. And this was so devastating and embarrassing. I remember feeling so embarrassed. Like who do I talk to? I told my best friend. And I told the pastor that I was talking with for counseling. I’m not gonna say that it didn’t seem like a big deal to them, but it’s like their hands are tied. There’s nothing out there. It was just like, there’s nothing out there for help. I felt so alone. I had nothing. It started to feel like, this is *Every Man’s Battle.* **Anne:** Yeah. **Faith:** And that’s like, yeah, I do have to step up and help him. So I took it upon myself that I communicated with him. I’m just not gonna tell you no. I often slept downstairs. I have several health issues, migraines, vertigo, and it would be compounded sleeping in the same bed with someone else. So I just slept downstairs and he woke me up one night. I was in a dead sleep, so it was like, no. And he went upstairs at that point I’m awake and I decided to follow him and he was in our bedroom with a tablet and I just lost it. I was like, it doesn’t even matter, and I actually left the house for the night. And slept in my car, in my church parking lot. ## WHEN YOUR HUSBAND IS CONSTANTLY ANGRY, HIS DEEP CHARACTER SHOWS THROUGH **Faith:** We never discussed our issues. So when I surfaced the next day, I put on a happy face and pretended to be the happy family. He didn’t even ask where I went. There was no worrying, no concern for my wellbeing of where I was for the night. He blamed me that he had to take the kids to soccer hungover. I took that pretty hard too, because his drinking always bothered me. He would use scripture to say, “As long as I’m not drunk, I’m not breaking scripture.” Like you can drink in moderation and be okay. But here he admits he was drunk, and blames me. For having the responsibilities he had as a dad the following day and for his behavior the night before. That’s when some things started to unravel for me as far as his deep character. Who he claims to be is not who he is. I started to definitely put up some walls. I was still not saying no, I just know that it was like a checklist. Just something I have to do. I guess the phrase I wanna use is not rock the boat when my husband is constantly angry. And then, I’m going to give all the credit to God, because the scales started to fall off my eyes. I know many people criticize Focus on the Family in our circles. But God can use anything. I’m a firm believer in that. There was a man named Brant Hansen who was on Focus on the Family on my way to work. And he was talking about men being keepers of the garden, and he came to the conclusion that he was, who his wife needed protection from. ## THINGS START TO UNRAVEL **Faith:** It was something about the phrase. That he was willing to die for her, but did he truly cherish and love her? And boy did that phrasing wake me up after hearing what my husband had told me. The Lord started to use that to wake me up to what I was actually living in. And once you see it, you can’t unsee it. **Anne:** Right. **Faith:** Things started to unravel from there. I couldn’t go back. My husband was amping it up as far as like, blaming me for erectile dysfunction. When he was on many medications. He was drinking heavily, none of that could have influenced his inabilities. But it was all my fault. I had actually called off work one day to spend the whole day with him. I came down the steps and he said, “It would be really nice if you put on red lipstick.” So it was funny to me that you mentioned makeup, because I actually don’t wear makeup. It’s never been something I’ve been comfortable doing. I just never liked it. That’s not part of who I am. I don’t even own red lipstick. So nothing happened that day because I was so upset. **Anne:** Yeah. **Faith:** I said, I feel like you don’t wanna be with me. You’re asking me to become someone else so that you can be turned on, or whatever it is that you’re looking for. It is not me. **Anne:** He didn’t even know you well enough to know that you didn’t have any. **Faith:** Right. **Anne:** Or alternatively, maybe he did, and he was lying to really hurt you. That could be true too. Wow, I’m so sorry. ## FEELING LIKE A FAILURE AS A WIFE **Faith:** I ended up doing the things that he asked me to do. I went and bought lipstick. I went and got some lingerie, and believe it or not, it still did not go well. **Anne:** Sorry, I believe you. **Faith:** So that was the last time that we were intimate and I use intimate in the loosest term because there was definitely no real true intimacy probably the entire marriage. I could no longer open myself up and I actually didn’t know the language, so I didn’t know that I was putting in place boundaries. Because I was uncomfortable sharing myself with him. I didn’t know that. At that point, it was like, I’m just a failure as a wife. I can’t do anything to please him, because my husband is constantly angry. Nothing was ever pleasant. So if we were on a date night, he would always bring up a rough topic. On this particular date night, he told me he was looking into getting a penis pump, so that he could do whatever he needed. And prevent prostate cancer. And I have a medical history of HPV, which he’s been my only partner. **Anne:** Oh, yeah. **Faith:** So considering that could cause cervical cancer. I seriously couldn’t even believe what was coming out of his mouth. **Anne:** Right. ## FINDING BTR WHEN YOUR HUSBAND IS CONSTANTLY ANGRY **Faith:** It’s all self, everything that came out of his mouth just sounded so selfish to me anymore. **Anne:** Yeah, for good reason ‘ cause it was selfish. **Faith:** So I came across BTR and [Betrayal Trauma Group sessions..](https://www.btr.org/group/) I really don’t know how, I think I was just searching [best betrayal trauma resources online](https://www.btr.org/best-betrayal-trauma-resources/). I didn’t even know what betrayal trauma was. And I didn’t know that’s what was going on with me. It was definitely a God thing, because it seemed like it came out nowhere and was a much needed resource. Because you were the first to tell me exactly everything that was my experience. And I listen to you when I’m driving. I just found myself crying with you, laughing with you at times too. And I just wanna take this time right now to thank you for putting yourself out there to help others. Because without you, I would still probably think I am crazy. Because many of the groups I participate in still don’t talk about porn use as that betrayal piece. Yes, they recognize it, I think, as contributing to a destructive relationship, would be their terminology. But the pieces that you hit on, it’s exactly everything I experienced, and it just made it all make sense. I’m not crazy. **Anne:** You’re surviving crazy, but you are not crazy, and so much of it, even the parts that you think maybe you missed, or that you think maybe you allowed it, or something like that. That’s not true. It’s what he’s manipulated you to think because he’s a liar, but not because it’s actually true. And it takes a while to separate all that manipulation from the truth, when your husband is constantly angry,. ## HIS PROBLEMS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU **Anne:** I’m so grateful my podcast was helpful. Is there anything that you would you like to share with women who are listening? **Faith:** I think what I would wanna say is that you are worth so much. And it’s not your fault. It’s not on you, that you don’t have to carry the burdens on your shoulders. **Anne:** Yeah, it is such a burden, when your husband is constantly angry and he’s manipulating you. But then all the extra burden society puts on you. Or therapists who don’t understand the situation or other people who give you the impression that you had something to do with it or that you played a role and you didn’t. The first step to emotional safety is to recognize that it has literally nothing to do with you, even though it affects you very much. Because I think those two juxtaposition things where it’s like it doesn’t have anything to do with you, so it shouldn’t bother you very much. There’s that and that’s not true either. Even though it has nothing to do with you, it does hurt you and it affects you on a very deep level. Well, thank you so much for sharing part of your story. I would love to have you come back in six months or a year to let us know where you are then. ## THERAPY NEVER WORKS WITH A LIAR **Anne:** So are you still married now? What’s your current situation? **Faith:** My current situation, he actually suggested couple therapy again. I filed for divorce, last year. Our oldest daughter just turned 19, and our youngest is 15. In my state, everything is a 50/50 split. They don’t care what your story is. My daughter started to refuse to go to his house, and so I’m now fighting for her. So far, the judge has heard her without even seeing her, that 50/50 is off the table. And although they are supposed to do counseling, that’s all starting right now, is them doing counseling. **Anne:** No one should ever, ever be suggesting, not the court, not anyone. Ever, ever be suggesting counseling if a husband is constantly angry or with someone who is abusive. **Faith:** I know how it went for me. I feel like they’re never going to label him as abusive. It’s never going to happen. It doesn’t matter like what my experiences have been. **Anne:** No, and it doesn’t matter what anyone’s are. Sorry, I just get livid about it. **Faith:** I know. **Anne:** Therapy never works with a liar. It never ever does. It never ever will. You’re only putting someone in harm’s way. Even if you don’t wanna call him an abuser, at the very least he’s a liar. So he is never gonna benefit from therapy. ## TAKING OFF THE MASK AND FINDING FAMILY SUPPORT WHEN YOUR HUSBAND IS CONSTANTLY ANGRY **Faith:** I have been fortunate to have a dad who believes me and supports me, because I know I lived a lie. I lived with a mask that I presented to the world. And I said, “I’m not going to do that anymore.” When I investigated how bad the situation was to get a divorce, I sat my kids down and I said, “I’m going to be the one who tears our family apart.” I was crying. They looked at each other, smiled and said, “Mom, it’s about time.” So, kids see, kids definitely see. **Anne:** Well, Faith, you are incredible. Thank you so, so much for coming and sharing your story, and I look forward to you coming back on the podcast to let us know how you’re doing. Thank you so much. **Faith:** Thank you Anne. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Betrayal Trauma in Marriage, When It's Not Getting Better](https://www.btr.org/betrayal-trauma-in-marriage/) **Published:** May 5, 2026 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Many women have a difficult time finding the right support for betrayal trauma. Here's what to know. **Content:** I hear this over and over again: betrayal trauma in marriage doesn’t just come from discovering a husband’s lies. For many women, it deepens when they reach out for help, and aren’t believed, supported, or protected. Most women respond to betrayal the way they’ve been taught to respond. They… - seek counseling. - ask spiritual leaders for guidance. - work on themselves. - try to explain their pain more clearly, more gently, more compassionately. And instead of finding relief, they find silence. Or minimization. Or subtle pressure to endure. For so many women, the most painful betrayal isn’t only what happens at home, it’s what happens when they finally ask for help and realize there’s nowhere safe to land. Before you spend one more day confused, you need a clear, simple framework for understanding what’s happening. That’s why I pulled together [**Clarity After Betrayal**](/clarity/). It’s the starting place women told me they *desperately* needed before they wasted years trying to make sense of mixed messages, gaslighting, and chaos. ## WHEN YEARS OF BETRAYAL TRAUMA IN MARRIAGE TAKES A TOLL Nikki’s husband betrayed her for years: infidelity, lies, constant emotional attacks. He convinced her she was “too sensitive” and “too needy,” when the real issue was his pattern of betrayal. If you’re thinking his behaviors might amount to emotional abuse here’s some [examples of emotional abuse ](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/)to check out. ## TRANSCRIPT: BETRAYAL TRAUMA IN MARRIAGE **Anne:** Today we have a member of our community, we’re going to call her Nikki. She’s from Australia. Welcome Nikki. So, tell me your story. Did you recognize your husband’s abusive behaviors at first? **Nikki:** Not at all. Goodness me, no. I was 15, just had my 16th birthday when I met my husband. I was in the UK. And we’ve been together ever since. I was six months pregnant with our first child. And he bought this little black bag home. And I hadn’t seen it before. We weren’t living together at the time. And he brought it back into my little flat, and being curious, opened it, and there was all this horrible material in there. And said to him, this is not what I want as part of my life. I knew this wasn’t what I wanted, and he said, “Oh, I’ll get rid of it, I’ll get rid of it.” And there were other bits in this bag, which just baffled me. I was just horrified, and the next day I went into labor because I was just that traumatized, I guess. So from that point, it kind of never stopped. I would continually find magazines under the couch. I mean, we tried getting help before we’d gone to several pastors who were basically just more about the codependent model. But I’d done nothing except to protect myself from betrayal trauma in marriage. **Anne:** And try to protect your marriage, right? It creates betrayal trauma from infidelity, there are so many things [a cheating husband says](https://www.btr.org/cheating-husband-says/) that harm. **Nikki:** Yeah, and I didn’t want our children to spend time with me and then time with him, because he’d gone down the rabbit hole. I didn’t want there to be a point where he was left with them alone. ## LIFE IN AUSTRALIA, LACK OF SUPPORT & SELF-EDUCATION **Anne:** Where do you live in Australia? **Nikki:** I live in Melbourne, Victoria, but I’m from Tasmania. **Anne:** Okay, how do you feel like the support is there? **Nikki:** None, I have struggled to find anybody in this field that can help. So no, I never recognized the abuse, not until I started educating myself. And then it was when I came across the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Facebook page that I knew that what he was doing was abuse, and I was experiencing betrayal trauma in my marriage. **Anne:** Before you found BTR, when you were trying to get help, what types of things did you do to try and like, improve? **Nikki:** Yep, I thought if I looked better, if I tried harder, if I loved him more, you know, I learned the love languages. I was always trying to improve myself, and even going to counseling to try and improve something. Yeah, I took it on board, but I think that’s much more to do with how I was raised to be a better wife. And then he wouldn’t do this thing. **Anne:** There is so much you don’t know, there are so many [powerful truths about emotional abuse](https://www.btr.org/7-powerful-truths-about-emotional-abuse/). So you knew about the watching stuff online. Did you recognize the other types of abusive behaviors, like lying, manipulation, and gaslighting as betrayal trauma in marriage? Could you identify those back in the day? Or did you not realize all that was going on too? **Nikki:** I knew there was lying and manipulation. Because that kind of goes hand in hand with sneaky behavior, doesn’t it? Yeah, it wasn’t until the internet came about and you could Google this kind of stuff that I became aware of it. It wasn’t until much later in our marriage. ## REALIZING COMMON ADVICE DOESN’T WORK WITH BETRAYAL TRAUMA IN MARRIAGE **Anne:** So when did you realize that common marriage advice, look good, love, serve, forgive, make sure dinner’s on the table, make sure the house is clean, you know, that sort of thing? People say [marriage is hard work](/marriage-is-hard-work/), and unless it’s abusive it’s just not true. And when did you realize that common marriage advice was not working and that the betrayal trauma in your marriage was not improving? **Nikki:** Probably about 20 years ago. **Anne:** And how long have you been married? **Nikki:** We’ve been married about 27 years. **Anne:** Okay, so seven years in, you realize, wait a minute, this isn’t working. What helped you realize that? **Nikki:** I think it was shortly after we’d had intercourse, and I walked in and found him looking at stuff. I actually thought he deliberately tried to hurt me. ## WHEN BETRAYAL TRAUMA IN MARRIAGE IS GETTING WORSE **Anne:** And when you thought that, he deliberately attempts to hurt me, you also didn’t think abuse way back then. **Nikki:** No, not at all. It’s only the abuse part has been, I think, the last six years that I’ve seen his actions as being abusive. **Anne:** Why do you think it takes so long for victims of emotional and psychological abuse and this type of coercion (probably because no one knows: [what is victim blaming](/what-is-victim-blaming/)) to understand the reality of their situation. **Nikki:** Trauma, I think our brain sits in trauma because the person you most trust, the person you think will never hurt you, is doing it. And I think it’s protection. I mean, I can’t speak for everyone, I can only speak for me. Because whatever your circumstance is, there’s a part of you that needs to protect your own mind and yourself from the betrayal trauma in marriage. Your brain or your body is just not ready to realize that this is what it is. ## CRISIS POINT & FINDING BETRAYAL TRAUMA RECOVERY **Anne:** There’s also this education factor. You don’t have an abuse class in high school. Along with math and English, right? So many people think they understand abuse because they’ve seen a TV show where a guy beats up his wife, and they’re like, that’s what abuse is. And they don’t recognize all the different covert ways in a marriage that you can be abused and end up with betrayal trauma. **Nikki:** I think it’s the gaslighting as well. Because it’s been so long in my marriage. It’s like, oh, no, I must have misunderstood what he said. Oh, no, he’s right. I’ve got that wrong. Oh, okay. I thought you meant this, but you actually meant this way. Oh, all right. So you’re second guessing yourself all the time. **Anne:** What were you looking for online when you found Betrayal Trauma Recovery on Facebook? **Nikki:** I hit a crisis point. The crisis point brought me to the fact that I was trying to seek some kind of support basically anywhere, because here in Australia it’s like, oh you’ll be right mate. So whoever you spoke to thought you were being prissy. It just wasn’t cutting it. I just felt so deeply ashamed and hurt that I needed some kind of support and wasn’t getting it in the real world. So when I came across the group, it changed the way I view my whole life. **Anne:** So you started attending the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/ "Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group sessions"), can you tell us about your experience? ## KNOWLEDGE IS POWER WITH BETRAYAL TRAUMA IN MARRIAGE **Nikki:** Knowing that I’m not alone. Because I’ve always taught our children that knowledge is power. Once you have power, you can change the way you operate, change the way you do things. So for me, that’s been the greatest thing, being informed. And then being able to research that and having the facts behind it. Which has been a great thing. **Anne:** Being educated about betrayal trauma in marriage brings so much confidence. It really helps you [recover from betrayal](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyJzgbskn3o&t=2s). Because the gaslighting, you’re like, Is this me? Is this real? What’s going on? And if you don’t have words for it, you can never fully define it to someone else. And so, they’ll give you typical things, like, Well, you just must be stressed. ![Marriage Survival when Betrayal Trauma is Present](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/marriage-surviving-when-betrayal-trauma-is-present.webp "Marriage Surviving when Betrayal Trauma is Present")Or maybe, don’t worry, it’ll get better. Things like that. Because you’re not able to say what’s happening with betrayal trauma in marriage. So getting educated, you can actually talk about it. Having words to describe it immediately helps people understand what’s happening. It also helps victims understand what is going on. Because there’s so much confusion. **Nikki:** Yeah, for me, what I’m experiencing now, because I’ve been in this for a long time. And there’s been a lot of game playing. on his behalf, and I’ve just realized my body is actually physically, it’s started coming out. I’ve developed really bad tinnitus, which is a physical representation of what’s going on in the outside world. ## BETRAYAL TRAUMA IN MARRIAGE HAS AN IMPACT ON PHYSICAL & MENTAL HEALTH **Nikki:** And also, I find my brain is not working the same. As I’ve got older. And I think that’s because of the trauma that’s gone on throughout our whole marriage and childhood. My brain’s got to the point where it’s like, I don’t want to work anymore. I don’t want to hold this memory, or it just phases out or disassociates, which I know is part of the trauma. But it’s frustrating. **Anne:** I can imagine. How old are you now? **Nikki:** I’m 47. We have five children. They’re all adults now. Thank you, God, they survived. They’re pretty good people, but we’ve got four boys, one girl. And my children growing up, they’d ask him a question, and he wouldn’t respond. They’d always be, Oh, we’re going to go to the sensible parent. Meaning that we’re gonna go see mum. **Anne:** He wouldn’t respond because he was distracted or he just couldn’t focus? ![Dealing with Betrayal Trauma in My Marriage](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/dealing-with-betrayal-trauma-in-marriage.webp "Dealing with Betrayal Trauma in Marriage")**Nikki:** I don’t know if he didn’t know the answer. So he didn’t want to look silly, so he’d muck about. Because I think his use of online material stunted his intellectual growth. He must have been about 14, I think. And I always developed critical thinking in our children. You know, I told them to think about the wheres, whys, and what fors of any situation. And because he didn’t develop that skill, the children kind of overtook him in their thinking and emotional development. He just really frustrated them. **Anne:** That makes sense. In terms of [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/group/ "Betrayal Trauma Recovery"), the education and support you’ve received helped you make different choices about how you interact with him. ## TAKING MY POWER BACK WITH BETRAYAL TRAUMA RECOVERY **Nikki:** I no longer buy into his BS. Like, if I ask him a question and I know he’s done something, I know that whatever comes out of his mouth will be a lie. I state my case, I drop it, I walk away, and I allow him time to be truthful, and no longer check up on him, because I found that, oh my goodness me, it was driving me nuts. I felt like I was chasing my whole life, and I was trying to catch him out playing detective, and it just doesn’t work. It just, for me anyway, and I understand there is some control, especially early on when you’re still buying into the gaslighting. But now I’m at a point where it’s like, you know what, you do you. I’ve gone out and I’m back in to work full time. I’m just living my life. to the best of my ability. And the group, like the conversations in the group, and the information in the group, helped me see that betrayal trauma in marriage doesn’t mean I stop living the best life I can. And so yeah, I’m grateful for that, because it’s given me my life back, and enabled me to take my power back as a woman, if that makes sense. **Anne:** It makes sense. So we talk about boundaries to help yourself heal from betrayal trauma in your marriage a lot at Betrayal Trauma Recovery and in the [BTR group](https://www.btr.org/group/). Many people who don’t listen to the podcast, I would say, or misunderstand what we do, accuse me of being pro divorce or a man hater or something like that. Or that Betrayal Trauma Recovery is just a place where if you go there, you’re going to end up bitter and angry. ## BOUNDARIES & MISCONCEPTIONS WITH BETRAYAL TRAUMA IN RELATIONSHIPS **Anne:** You are still married. Would you speak to that a little bit and talk about how do you see Betrayal Trauma Recovery? Like, I see us as a safety first organization, right? Your safety is the most important thing, and you can figure out what that looks like in your own life. But could you talk to that point? **Nikki:** I’ve never seen you say get a divorce or be a man hater. You lay the facts out as they are. Whatever a woman does with that is their choice, their option after betrayal trauma in marriage. Yeah, what you promote though is, are you safe? Are you okay? **Anne:** We have to walk this fine line, because when we talk about abuse, many people want to say, well, you should only encourage them to leave, like immediately. Then there’s the addiction recovery people. They’re like, no, you should be nice and understanding. Don’t shame them, don’t make any decisions. And know they’re sick. And how can you help them? So we’re not on that side for sure, but I’m right in this section where I want to give people correct information and say, your safety is the most important thing. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) And I am not living in your shoes. I’m not living in your home. I don’t know all your specific circumstances. So I trust every woman, every victim, to make. The best decisions about her particular situation. So I think that’s one thing that I’m wondering is, do you feel supported in your circumstances and where you are right now in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery group? Do you feel accepted for the decisions you’re making? ## COMPLEXITIES OF ABUSE WILL CAUSE CONFUSION **Nikki:** Yeah, people will always speak from their own inner knowledge or feelings, I think. So whatever you put out on a group. Expect that response from that aspect. You take what you can and leave what you don’t need. Like you said, you’re the only one who knows what’s happening within the relationship. So yeah, I feel supported because I take what I need from it, because I am the only one that knows what’s happening and why I stay within my marriage. We’ve got a lot of financial obligations together. You know, we still have grandchildren that would visit, Granddad, and I’d much prefer to be around. So I know why I stay within my marriage. And I think it’s up to every individual person to make that decision. **Anne:** People who haven’t been through it, or people who have, I mean, it’s just a lot more complex than I think anybody can even wrap their head around. It’s such a complex situation and it unfolds over time. So not everything can be decided in a split second. **Nikki:** Everything feels split second when you’re in it though, doesn’t it? **Anne:** It does. And it feels like you have to, it feels like you have to decide or know everything. There’s this overwhelming desire to resolve things as quickly as possible, whatever resolution means or whatever fixing it means, but it’s impossible to resolve or fix quickly, right? This is a very, very long-term complex problem. **Nikki:** You know, we’ve found a therapist, we’ve thrown all the money we can at him. **Anne:** So you’re still with a man who’s continuing to exhibit emotionally abusive behaviors. ## FUTURE HOPES TO MAKE THE BEST OF MY LIFE **Anne:** How do you feel right now? **Nikki:** Oh boy, okay, so we’ve just had an episode, so everything’s a little bit raw for me just now. Because he’s what I think of as a surface person. He wants everything to look great on the outside, that everything’s going well, and that he’s doing underhanded things, and he gets off knowing that he’s getting away with it. So when he becomes overly nice, I then become on guard, and I wait for the next influx of abuse, emotional abuse. He doesn’t yell, he doesn’t do any of that, he just becomes very quiet. We had, we’ll say, six months of nice. And so I was waiting for it. So we just discovered, and so we’re just going through that now, and he hasn’t gone back to see his therapist. So he’s just waiting to go back to see her, but it’s difficult, because I don’t know what she’s saying to him, or whether he’s telling her partial truths. Have I reached some kind of peace within myself? There is peace around our marriage and our life? No, there isn’t peace. I’m making do with what I’ve got because of circumstance. And that’s awful to say, because it feels like a half life. **Anne:** Do you feel like you’re progressing toward something? Even though current circumstances are what they are? Do you hope for the future? **Nikki:** I’ve got a lot of hope for my future, because I’ll make the best of my life no matter what. For our marriage and for us together, we will have to make a step either away, and I don’t think it’s going to be too long down the road. There will be a conversation with my grown children. ## THERE WILL ALWAYS BE COMPLEXITY IN A MARRIAGE WITH BETRAYAL TRAUMA **Nikki:** They know about his addiction. I just don’t think they realize how far he’s gone within that addiction. Yep, I’ve got peace in me, but within our marriage, not sure. We’ve got a few big decisions ahead of us, which will affect many outcomes for myself, my daughter, and him. **Anne:** Well, that is what is so awesome. If I can praise Betrayal Trauma Recovery about BTR, is that we get it. We get it. We get how complex it is, we get that it takes a long time, sometimes. You know what the right thing is or what the thing is you want to do, not necessarily the right thing, but it’s not the right time or other factors, right? There are so many complexities. And having someone who understands and be supportive is helpful. Should we call it that with a long-term trial like this? What should we call it? A long-term problem. What would you tell other women? Let’s say what you went through in your early 30s, so if someone’s listening. And that’s where they’re at. Let’s say they’ve just discovered pornography for the first time. **Nikki:** Oh my goodness. I’m sorry this is your journey. Get help. Get immediate help. Find a good support network. Find somebody you trust. That you can tell absolutely anything to. And will not judge. And will just be there for you. Find that one person. And walk beside them, and let them walk beside you. Because that’s the best thing you can do for you, to heal you. And know that it’s not your fault. Know that he made choices that have affected both of your lives. It’s just not your fault, though. ## KNOWING ABOUT ABUSIVE MARRIAGES HELPS WITH BETRAYAL TRAUMA **Nikki:** And don’t try and fix him. **Anne:** Oh, we’ve all done that. **Nikki:** Yep, if we just do this, if I look a bit prettier if I wear this lingerie. If I do that risky behavior that he would like me to do, that’ll make him happy, and he won’t do it anymore. **Anne:** When women go down that road, they end up doing it more. Or he wants it more, right? There’s no end to it. **Nikki:** Oh, he wants a bit more freaky. The indulging of their immature behaviors, their man child silliness. And I think that’s something we don’t realize, isn’t it? Is it that they get themselves stuck emotionally at the age they start using? So what you’re actually doing is complying with a teenager, a child. And so, and what happens when a child doesn’t get what it wants? It tantrums. And unfortunately, a man tantrum has a bigger impact, because they’re disposable, to play with like income or whatever it is, you know, that’s protecting the family. **Anne:** Yeah, well, and also their tantrums are way more sophisticated, right? They might not scream, yell and punch the wall, although some of them do that. But their tantrum might look nice and kind when behind your back they’re spending $10,000 of their retirement. **Nikki:** Yeah, or they’ve got a hidden phone, so they’re happy to show you the phone they’ve got. And all the while feeling proud of themselves that they’ve got a hidden phone, and that’s what gets them off. **Anne:** Exactly. ## WHEN YOU NEED LOVE, ATTEND BETRAYAL TRAUMA RECOVERY GROUP **Anne:** Well, thank you so much for sharing your story and spending time with us today. [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group](https://www.btr.org/group/) is that amazing place where you can be yourself and understood. Is there anything else that you would like to share about the group or about BTR that you have found helpful? **Nikki:** For me, in the early stages of betrayal trauma in marriage and now as sort of, I won’t say a veteran, but I’ve been there for a while. This is the place you go to when you need to feel heard, you need to feel safe, you need to reach out. You know, or you just need somebody to say, Hey, I’m here for you. Or you need to feel loved. Because this group, for me anyway, has provided that. Get in contact. You know, try and join the group, because it’s just, if you want to feel loved, this is where it’s at. **Anne:** That’s good to hear. Betrayal Trauma Recovery is love. They can make choices due to that love and confidence to get them to safety. That’s the whole goal. **Nikki:** To know you’re not alone and that the crazy making that happens, sometimes this group, has helped me unravel that craziness. This is going on, and in your head, because they’ve gaslighted you so much, you’re forever double guessing your own mind, to notice that you go in there and somebody says, yep, that’s normal. My husband does that. It’s like, it’s what they do, it’s one of their little tactics, and you just come away thinking, Oh, okay. And you can take a big sigh of relief to think, Oh, I’m not that crazy after all. ## THERE IS HOPE AFTER BETRAYAL TRAUMA IN MARRIAGE **Anne:** Yeah, no, you are not. You are beautiful, amazing, competent woman. It’s a cool place to be, right? It’s a cool club to be in. With all these awesome women. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to share your story today, and we’ll see you in Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group. **Nikki:** Thank you, Anne. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [What Happened When I Googled "Celebrate Recovery Near Me"](https://www.btr.org/celebrate-recovery-near-me/) **Published:** May 12, 2026 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Before searching “Celebrate Recovery near me," realize manipulative partners can misuse recovery language. **Content:** If you’re typing “Celebrate Recovery near me” into Google because you’re desperate for help after discovering that your husband has been lying to you about his infidelity or his use of inappropriate material, you’re not alone. ## BEFORE GOING TO CELEBRATE RECOVERY NEAR ME, CONSIDER THIS: ### **1. RECOVERY PROGRAMS ONLY WORK IF HE’S HONEST** A recovery environment only works if your husband is completely honest about his behavior. Even in cases where he’s willing to attend a program, some women discover their husband takes “chips,” confesses slips, or shares breakthroughs in group without ever telling her. Not because he’s changing, but because he’s using the system to make it *look* like he’s changing. ### **2. CELEBRATE RECOVERY NEAR ME CAN’T FIX EMOTIONAL ABUSE** When women search “Celebrate Recovery near me,” they often think the program will help heal their marriage by helping their husbands understand the root causes of their addiction and behaviors, especially if he seems willing to go meetings. But the root issue isn’t addiction, it’s entitlement, control, and dishonesty. Most recovery programs aren’t designed to assess or confront coercive control. So instead of getting safer, some women end up feeling more confused. Before you invest your hope in any program, you deserve to understand the full picture. To discover if your husband is emotionally abusive, take this [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ### **3. SOME MEN USE RECOVERY OR LANGUAGE AS A SHIELD** Many women report that once their husband joined a recovery group like Celebrate Recovery near me, he just learned to speak the language of recovery without actually changing. Instead of becoming more honest, some men become more skilled at hiding, using the right words, sharing at the right times, and appearing accountable…while the underlying patterns stay the same. This isn’t necessarily the program’s fault. Recovery culture tends to take disclosures at face value. But for some men, it becomes a stage rather than a mirror. ### **4. IF HE GETS PRAISE IN GROUP BUT YOU GET HURT AT HOME, PAY ATTENTION** The applause of a group like Celebrate Recovery near me can unintentionally reward performance. Your lived experience matters more than his report. If his recovery looks great publicly, but privately you feel scared, confused, dismissed, or blamed, that’s a sign to step back and observe what’s happening. You don’t have to announce this to anyone ### **5. RECOVERY PROGRAMS DON’T REPLACE BETRAYAL TRAUMA SUPPORT** A program like Celebrate Recovery near me often uses a model that focuses on his trauma from childhood or his triggers. They may encourage couples to build routines that reduce his stress or triggers, sometimes placing more responsibility on her to monitor or support his progress. These might be good tools for people who genuinely want to heal. But they don’t address lying, manipulation and entitlement. A woman in an emotionally abusive marriage needs support that centers her emotional safety, not his recovery timeline. ### **6. IF YOU FEEL WORSE AFTER THE PROGRAM STARTS, THAT MATTERS** Many women assume feeling worse is a sign that they’re a part of “the problem,” or they need to be “more supportive.” When his patterns of behavior become a shared problem…something you’re both expected to manage…it often creates more emotional chaos for her. Her emotional safety needs to be addressed separately, not tied to how well he’s doing or how much effort he appears to be making. Feeling confused, blamed, responsible for his recovery, or pressured to forgive and move forward…is a sign something else is happening. ### **7. YOUR EMOTIONAL SAFETY COMES BEFORE HIS RECOVERY STORY** If you’re searching **“Celebrate Recovery near me”** to save your marriage, here’s the most important thing: his recovery is not the foundation of your emotional safety. Your clarity is. It’s important to have your own support community in place that is educated in the dynamics of emotional and psychological abuse and can help you decide what you need for emotional safety. If you need support in addressing what’s really happening, and whether a recovery program can help, you can start with my [Clarity After Betrayal](/clarity/ "Living Free") or [BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/ "Group Sessions"). They’re designed to give you immediate clarity. ## TRANSCRIPT: WHAT HAPPENED WHEN I GOOGLED “CELEBRATE RECOVERY NEAR ME” **Anne:** I’ve talked to hundreds of women who have typed things like “Celebrate Recovery near me”, or “addiction recovery program” into Google. Especially when their husband said he was an addict and he is willing to go to a program. So if he’s willing and goes to this program, it’s totally normal for a woman to think that things are gonna get better. But over the years, I’ve interviewed countless women who tell me things actually got worse. And I’m interviewing one of those women today. We’re gonna call her. Nancy. Here’s part of her story. **Nancy:** His coworker called me. She told me she was out with some friends. And he flirted with her and tried to pick her up. We were Going to Celebrate Recovery. He supposedly had been sober for months. **Anne:** We’re gonna get to her whole story, but before we do, I wanna stress that it’s important to understand that a manipulative man can use anything, a recovery program, therapy, even meeting with clergy to manipulate a woman further, and that causes a lot more harm and trauma. So before you start searching for a recovery program for your husband, it is important to consider what his recovery would be for and [how abusers manipulate their victims](https://www.btr.org/abusers-manipulate-their-victims/). Most of the time, the therapist will say something like childhood wounds or addiction recovery. When really what you’re actually experiencing is emotional and psychological abuse. And I’ve even interviewed women who have tried to find an abuse program for their husband, and they still tell me the same things. So as you listen to Nancy’s story, I think it will help put into perspective what’s really going on and what steps you wanna take next. ## WHEN I MET HIM I THOUGHT HE WAS A GOOD GUY **Anne:** That’s why I created the Living Free Workshop. It helps women know what’s going on, if he’s really abusive or not. Some women find out he’s not. And then what steps to take to create emotional safety in your life. It’s much faster to figure that out first, before spending tons of time and money in therapy or a recovery or Celebrate Recovery near me program. Living Free total run time is about two hours and 50 minutes, which is much shorter than three or four years to find out it’s not working. So Nancy, thank you so much for sharing your story today. Welcome, can you tell us how you met? **Nancy:** When I met him, he went to church. He served on the worship team, and he could talk like a preacher. So I thought he was a good guy. It was confusing, because we were play wrestling, and I wouldn’t have remembered this except I had written in a journal and I read it after everything fell apart. He held me down and said some things like, did you think you were stronger than me? Did you think I would let you go? It really scared me. I was very close to breaking up with him, but he actually cried and apologized. So I thought, he’s sorry. It’s not gonna happen again, and that sort of thing never happened again. He realized he had to be more subtle. He did tell me about his past sexual history. ## MIRRORING MY DESIRE TO SERVE MISSIONS **Nancy:** He was in the Navy and with several prostitutes. And he was honest, it felt like to me at the time. That he struggled with porn. I thought after we married, that wouldn’t be an issue. And honestly, I don’t know that anyone would’ve told me anything different. I wanted to serve in medical missions. He didn’t seem interested in this, so I prayed and left the relationship in God’s hands. I told him about how I prayed. And the next time we got together, he said, “He had been thinking and praying, and he really felt God moving his heart to missions. That everyone always thought he should be a missionary. It really blew me away, because I thought God had answered my prayer really fast. He knew that he was not only lying to me, he was also lying about God, and he chose it. Which makes him a really evil person. In pre-marital counseling, I was clear that I didn’t see myself as a housewife. I wanted things to be equal, and I didn’t plan to stop working. He acted like he was on the same page and that he was fine with this. So we married. Things were not good. In less than a year, he turned me down for sexual intimacy. Which was surprising and incredibly hurtful. Especially when I realized he was looking at porn. We went to see the movie *Fireproof,* and afterwards he admitted he was taking off his ring to flirt with people. I was trying to be very understanding, but I did feel hurt, and he got angry at me. He said this was the thanks he gets for staying away from porn for a couple weeks, which is not funny, but I’m laughing at the audacity. ## HE PUSHED ME TO QUIT WORKING WHILE AVOIDING ANY REAL RECOVERY OR CELEBRATE RECOVERY NEAR ME PROGRAMS **Nancy:** I think I blocked a lot of it out, because somehow things were good enough back and forth between nice, the Christian thing, and when he would be not so nice. I didn’t recognize abuse. The only thing I could put my finger on was the sexual things. We never could solve how things were to be run. And now that we had children, he could step away and I would be forced to do more house duties, cooking, cleaning, et cetera. Because someone had to do all the things for the children. I would tell him what we had agreed before marriage, and he said, “Yeah, but I thought you would change after we had kids.” **Anne:** I said the same thing. I said, I’m not gonna cook. And he was like, no problem. Then later told me, I thought you would change. And I’m like, I was so clear. **Nancy:** Exactly, we’re both honest and open. It’s like, that doesn’t mean I have to change, just ’cause you thought I would change. Well, it did because we had children now that needed to be taken care of. **Anne:** Right. **Nancy:** The same thing I said, I didn’t wanna stop working.” And he would constantly try to get me to stop working. I was only working part-time. He wanted me to not have an escape route. We separated, but I was so exhausted and overwhelmed with a baby, 2-year-old, and a 5-year-old. We got back together pretty quickly. ## DISCOVERING HE WAS FLIRTING WITH COWORKER **Nancy:** A year later, we separated again and went to couples counseling, ’cause I still had not seen how that was harmful. I was really hopeful, which seems funny after just like a week or two of separation. But his coworker called me and told me she had been out with some friends, and he was flirting with her and trying to pick her up. I thought this would be his rock bottom, because he’s almost lost his family. Anyway, we got back together and things were up and down. I was dealing with a lot of anger and depression, social anxiety. At the time, I thought I needed counseling to deal with my issues. We were going to Celebrate Recovery near me. His stated problems in Celebrate Recovery were sex addiction and anger. It’s so crazy knowing that, how could everybody there not believe anything I was saying? He supposedly had been sober for months because of all the addiction model stuff. We agreed that he would tell me if he ever had a slip within a certain amount of time. So at Celebrate Recovery, he went forward for a one-day chip, and that really shocked me because he wasn’t ever gonna tell me. When we agreed that he would. After that we had sex that was definitely, obviously coercive. I don’t think I had the words at the time, but I definitely felt that way because we had an agreement and he didn’t follow it. That was the last time we ever were together. ## HE SAID HE WOULD THROW ME A 30TH BIRTHDAY PARTY **Nancy:** I took a step back, and I was observing him because I felt like we were at the best place, and I’m actually an okay person. That means there’s nothing I’ve done wrong, literally. And there’s nothing I can do to change this. It just became increasingly clear to me. So I started looking for more information and came across BTR, but I didn’t listen to the episodes because I saw the word abuse. And thought that doesn’t apply to me. And I found a couple other podcasts. They didn’t fully explain everything, and then a really bad incident happened when I turned 30, a big birthday. **Anne:** They always do it on birthdays and holidays. **Nancy:** I know, I had always thrown him birthday parties. He’s an extrovert and that was something that he enjoyed and I didn’t mind, he didn’t throw me anything because I’m more of an introvert. So when I was going to turn 30, I told him that I’d like a birthday party and would like him to throw it for me. I said if he didn’t want to, let me know. ‘Cause it was important enough to me that I would throw it for myself. He said he would throw me the birthday party. But when I wasn’t seeing any preparations, I checked in with him. And the motions he made came across like he was planning a surprise birthday party. **Anne:** Like, let’s not talk about it. Or you might ruin your surprise. **Nancy:** Exactly, I had said, “I will throw it for myself.” I repeated that again, that time. He knew. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## HE CLAIMED HE “FORGOT” MY BIRTHDAY WHILE PRETENDING RECOVERY THROUGH SAA AND CELEBRATE RECOVERY NEAR ME GROUPS **Nancy:** So my birthday comes up. I expect a surprise party around any corner. I come to the end of the day and nothing happened, nothing. And his excuse was forgetfulness. **Anne:** I never gave you the impression I was gonna throw you a party. **Nancy:** Yeah, It was always that gaslighting and blame shifting. I feel like I dissociated a little bit around that time. ‘Cause it was really hurtful, because I would have thrown it for myself. **Anne:** And he knew that and he gave you the impression that he was throwing you a party on purpose to ensure that you didn’t have a party. **Nancy:** Exactly, I actually believed him that it was on accident, but that was just as hurtful. Now, I believe it was fully on purpose. At the time I was going to COSA and he was going to an SAA group. **Anne:** When she says COSA or SAA, she’s talking about 12-Step recovery for pornography addicts or sexual addicts. There are other programs like Celebrate Recovery near me. And the COSA is a co sex addict’s 12-Step for a wife of an addict, where she basically does the same program he does and tries to fix her character defects. **Nancy:** Yeah, I’d been talking about giving him another chance to throw me a party, and they said if he already didn’t do it, you should not do that. So I ended up throwing myself a party. After that 30th birthday, I would get down around my birthday every year. I ended up telling him that, not in a way to blame him, because like I said, I didn’t think he had done it on purpose. I just thought I should let him know I wasn’t myself. ## RECOGNIZING GASLIGHTING IN REAL TIME **Nancy:** And it was the first time I recognized what he was doing in the moment, he started to say. “That had not happened. That didn’t sound like something he would’ve done, that my memory must be a little off.” So many different ways he was trying to convince me that it hadn’t happened, and he couldn’t convince me because I knew it had happened. So he switched tactics and said that maybe he should get counseling for being abused. **Anne:** He’s claiming that you’re abusing him. **Nancy:** Exactly, I was so confused. I asked him, “Abuse, what are you talking about? Am I being abusive right now?” And he goes, “No, the abuse I’ve had to endure for the last how many years.” And then I realized oh, that was gaslighting. That’s blame shifting, and I ended up leaving the room and cried on my own. It shook me up that he could take something very vulnerable and turn it on me like that. I was talking about that incident and how he was saying I was abusive and I heard myself saying, “It was surprising he would call me abusive when he’s been so much worse.” And that was the first time I thought maybe he is abusive, and that reminded me about BTR. I thought, let me listen to that, ’cause maybe I can get some insight. That brought me back to listening to the BTR podcast. And I vividly remember I was binging all these episodes, hearing women’s stories. It felt like my life. And it just blew my mind to realize I’ve been abused this whole time. **Anne:** I’m so sorry. You were experiencing Betrayal Trauma and were not aware that recovery or Celebrate Recovery near me programs wouldn’t help you. ## ADDICT MODEL SAYS HE’S STRUGGLING, HE’S NOT IN CONTROL **Nancy:** It made sense. It felt like everything clicked into place. Everything else I was told didn’t make sense. I always talked about stuff. I was always looking for answers. And I never felt like I was codependent or that I needed [codependents anonymous](https://www.btr.org/codependents-anonymous/). None of that stuff seemed to fit. In fact, the advice I was given, “Don’t pay attention to what he’s doing. Only work on yourself.” While they’re also saying, “Don’t be codependent, ignore what he’s doing,” which just doesn’t work. The addict model, like he’s struggling, he’s trying, he’s not in control. I mean, that’s like step one. You’re powerless to control your behavior. He accepted the addiction model early on, and we were in and out of groups the whole time. But I don’t believe now that he’s an addict, and I don’t think he even thinks he’s an addict. It’s a great excuse to keep doing what you’re doing. Because there’s no accountability, and everyone applauds your efforts. Even if you’re not reaching the goal, you actually have a choice. He would say to me that he could not promise that he would never do any of the sexual stuff again. So it was like basically just saying, I’m gonna be doing this my whole life. **Anne:** My ex wouldn’t promise either. He said if I promised, “I wouldn’t be on my toes. Like I don’t want to think I couldn’t do that, because then maybe I would be in danger of doing it.” Which doesn’t even make sense. Like I can legit say, I will never have an affair. ## FINDING BTR HELPED ME WRAP MY HEAD AROUND THE ABUSE, CELEBRATE RECOVERY NEAR ME DIDN’T **Nancy:** Right, yeah. I found BTR. And the abuse model is they have a choice, and they’re choosing to be harmful and abusive. All these years he had been a liar. I stepped back and observed behavior for me to fully wrap my head around it. I believe he feels entitled to do what he wants. He doesn’t see people as people. Or maybe it’s just women as women. Objectification is a huge thing. I don’t think he ever saw me as an equal partner or a person. And I don’t believe he ever loved me. I was a desirable object he acquired, and that was it. When I started listening to BTR, it helped me understand abuse and the subtleties of it. Because before, I had only been thinking physical abuse or yelling insults, which my ex did not do. Listening to the stories helped me see how this plays out in marriage, even in a Christian marriage. ![Celebrate Recovery Near Me](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Celebrate-Recovery-Near-Me-1024x1024.webp "Celebrate Recovery Near Me")It was helpful to see the ways men could twist faith things, because many of these men and my ex are very manipulative. Like it has to slowly play out over time to see what they’re doing. And a lot of it goes back to intent, and it’s hard to see intent. It was hard for me to imagine [my husband is lying to me](https://www.btr.org/my-husband-is-lying-to-me/). So that was a shift too, to start looking at actions instead of words. BTR gave me a lot of insight into what I was living through and what was helpful, especially getting into the BTR groups. Celebrate Recovery near me didn’t do that. It helps build you up so that you can go through the hard stuff. We were going to counseling around the time I started going to BTR group. ## GOING TO COUPLE COUNSELING **Nancy:** Because of BTR, I had the words for it. I was able to express better what was happening. The counselor didn’t help my situation, of course. Individual counseling and couple counseling are unhelpful, because an abuser’s goal, my ex’s goal, was not to get better. His goal is to get whatever he wants. He’ll say whatever he needs to say to get what he needs from the counselor. We’ve gone to quite a few couple counselors. We would go into a new counselor, and he would bring up a new issue. He had never told me about me. **Anne:** Suddenly you’re a kleptomaniac or something. **Nancy:** Yeah, things that he thought I did that were hurtful to him, that I had never heard of before. But I felt so bad that I was hurting him without knowing it. What a callous person I am. **Anne:** Not knowing he was bearing false witness and that he literally made it up. **Nancy:** Yeah, completely distracted from why we went to counseling in the first place is sexual issues. Like I would have to be a safe person so he could be honest with me. Because I’m an actual caring person, I would feel like this was an actual issue that I needed to fix. And that is the part about the psychological abuse that is hard to describe. Because a lot of it could sound valid, and I thought these things were valid. But later realizing they were lies. They were lies, because he would’ve said them before. **Anne:** Exactly. ## CREEPY EXPERIENCE WITH NEW COUNSELOR **Nancy:** We did an in-home separation, At first. His abuse escalated the freer that I was getting. I never completely stopped working. I got a job and started after the in-home separation. He actually shut off the internet. Luckily, I prepared ahead of time. I had my own phone plan with the hotspot, So I could just switch over and just didn’t even engage with him. It has been a process of combing through my life, and I have wondered that how many lies I won’t even know about or remember. Because, I believed him and he was so good at lying. One of the new things he said was I wasn’t being vocal enough in bed. It felt so humiliating for him to say that to the new counselor. When he had never said that before. This male counselor wanted us to do an exercise right then on the sofa in front of him. He wanted my ex to touch like my foot or my leg, and then slowly move closer to my private areas. And as he moved closer. I was supposed to make more and more noise. **Anne:** No. **Nancy:** Isn’t that crazy? **Anne:** That’s so creepy. **Nancy:** I did feel incredibly creeped out, and I refused to do it. **Anne:** Good for you. ## HE SAID THERE WOULD BE NO EQUALITY IN OUR MARRIAGE – CELEBRATE RECOVERY NEAR ME DIDN’T HELP WITH THAT **Nancy:** I wish I had just walked out, But after we left, I said, “I will never go back to that counselor again.” And we never did. I said, “What I would need to continue in the marriage was for him to be seeing his own personal counselor, to have a full disclosure with a lie detector test.” Which he said no to. And I know now it wouldn’t have been helpful. Just like Celebrate Recovery near me wasn’t helpful. **Anne:** I know, thank goodness. **Nancy:** Right. **Anne:** Mine never did that either. And I think I would’ve just been in the abuse for so much longer had he said yes. **Nancy:** Right, and then the second thing I said is that, “I wanted equality in our marriage.” And he said no. **Anne:** He said no, he didn’t want equality? **Nancy:** Correct. **Anne:** Wow. **Nancy:** So I was like, then literally that’s the end of it. And I was going to BTR group. I remember one of the coaches said to me, “It was a blessing that he actually had been honest.” At the time, I didn’t understand, now I do. And I’m so glad I asked those questions. I don’t know why he was honest. There are two possibilities. He didn’t think I would leave, because I hadn’t yet. We’d been married for almost 14 years, and he was only saying what was already true. ## YOU DON’T NEED TO BE PERFECT TO BE LOVED **Nancy:** I just didn’t realize it was true. Or maybe he did want me to leave. I had some conversations with his mom. Because I found BTR, and surprisingly, she said it made her realize she was in an abusive relationship with my ex’s dad. However, she still felt like I should stay. Because she felt like the Lord had taught her so much and she had grown through all these trials. I have sympathy for her, but it’s so wrong. All of a sudden it just became very clear to me that if I stayed for the kids, it was actually putting them more at risk. And honestly, that conversation solidified that I had to leave for the kids. If you’re not sure yet if your partner is abusive, Just listen to some BTR stories and see what jumps out at you. You are a worthy human being that does not have to be perfect to be loved and treated with respect. Reconciliation is not necessary for forgiveness, and you don’t have to forgive anyone. It’s more of a process that can happen on its own time, and no one should force it. Pay much closer attention to someone’s actions over time than the words they say. And it’s never too late to make different choices when you learn or understand new information. I feel like having to make a choice that is wildly unpopular with people around you. Church, that I had to learn in a new way. Maybe for the first time, to not let what people thought about me affect the decisions that I make that part has been really hard because a church we were going to was not supportive at first. ## CALL FROM SOMEBODY IN CELEBRATE RECOVERY NEAR ME GROUP **Nancy:** Some of them seemed supportive, and even the ones I thought were supportive, in the end weren’t. I actually got a phone call from somebody in my Celebrate Recovery near me group. She called me up to ask me if I was seeing a counselor. Because I still seemed angry. I was speechless, of course I’m angry. **Anne:** Yeah **Nancy:** I didn’t even know how to respond to her. I just told her yes, I’m in BTR group and got off the phone. There’s nothing wrong with being angry about the situation. I feel like church tells women they shouldn’t be angry. But Jesus was angry. There’s nothing wrong with being angry. **Anne:** Yeah, I feel like if you’re not angry, something’s wrong. **Nancy:** Right. **Anne:** I mean, nothing is wrong with you. You might be numb, you might be sad. I went through periods where I wasn’t super angry. I was just really depressed, but on the whole oppressed, abused, exploited people, their anger is from God to help liberate themselves from the oppression. But of course, the abuser does not want you to liberate yourself. He said flat out he didn’t want you to be equal. That is infuriating. **Nancy:** And now he wanted 50/50 custody. It was very upsetting, because my ex had been very non-helpful around the house and with the kids. It was hard to think that he would want 50/50. **Anne:** But of course he did. **Nancy:** I didn’t see that coming, and I wish I had been more prepared and could have been more strategic. ## LISTENING TO HIM LIE IN THE COURTROOM **Nancy:** I could not wrap my mind around that at the time. I had seen more and more abuse as my eyes were open. So I couldn’t wrap my mind around 50/50 custody. I was under the delusion that justice was in the court system. I found out, even though I know he lies, it was a big shock to listen to him lying in the Courtroom. It’s hard to witness. It’s something I wish I had processed before, because I’m sure that was pointed out to me. But I couldn’t process that as a reality back then. The Living Free Workshop was so helpful. And going to group and getting help constantly. The Living Free Workshop is so different than anything you’ve ever been taught. I don’t know how I would’ve made it through this, honestly. That was another thing that was really helpful. There were some scripts in Living Free to get him on Our Family Wizard, and he actually got on it easily. I was surprised. I didn’t think he would get on as easily as he did, and just not responding in any other way. **Anne:** That’s the thing, they’re desperate to talk to you. With the workshop, everybody says, how am I gonna make him go on OFW? And if you do the script and stick to it and do not deviate. Legit, don’t deviate. Once you’re on Our Family Wizard, literally block him on your phone, so he has no other way of contacting you. He is desperate to get your attention and your belief, like Living Free says, yeah, they’re so transactional. And if you respond through Our Family Wizard, he will find a way to do it. ## HE PERFORMS FOR OTHERS IN GROUPS LIKE CELEBRATE RECOVERY NEAR ME AND IN COURT **Anne:** They’re like, well, this is what I gotta do to talk to her, because I’m blocked otherwise. They will move. It might take a month. I’ve had it take the longest six weeks with one woman that I was working with. Every single time he texted, she said, “Hey, I’ve responded on Our Family Wizard.” **Nancy:** Right. It felt overwhelming, because he kept sending me long, manipulative messages, but I responded on Our Family Wizard. It only took me once for him to switch. Being on OFW was better. Oh, one of the books BTR recommends, *The Woman They Could Not Silence*. I read it and that was awesome. It helped open up my mind to spiritual abuse. It’s been inspiring to me this whole time. What she went through being separated from her children. That book has been really inspiring. The thought of leaving them with him, terrifying to me. We went through two rounds of court. He would make it sound like I was controlling and not letting him do things. Like why wouldn’t I let him take the kids to half of the doctor’s appointments when he never came to a pregnancy appointment? And same with field trips. He’ll go on field trips now, and I feel like it’s just to keep me from going. It. He never wanted to before. **Anne:** If he was actually a good dad, he would’ve been doing it before, but since he’s only doing it now, he is just performing. **Nancy:** Yes, it’s a performance because he’s getting something out of it from other people, like in in celebrate recovery near me, and it’s punishment for me because he knows how much I like being there for the kids. ## RELUCTANCE TO SUPPORT ANYTHING HE CAN’T CONTROL **Nancy:** When we married, he didn’t want us to do extracurricular activities. He didn’t even want free after school activities, much less anything you would have to pay for. He was only okay with youth group attached to his job, not the free after school activities. But since we’ve been divorced, he has them interested in hockey, which is one of the most expensive and time consuming sports there is. It’s very strange from my entire experience with him. He never talked about hockey, and he never wanted them involved. At the same time, he is not wanting to pay half of necessary expenses, like medical or orchestra uniforms. For a long time, I was not asking for half of necessary expenses. Because I didn’t wanna have to deal with him because he makes it such a struggle. **Anne:** My ex is exactly like that, exactly. When my book comes out, I’m anxious for you to read it, because it was all about control. Like, if I’m paying you anything or if I’m involved in any way, I have to control it. **Nancy:** Yeah, like my youngest wanted to do karate. His dad would not participate even when I offered to pay the whole thing. Other son was invited to concert band, and his dad said no. **Anne:** Think about the power trip that gives him that he’s able to manipulate them away from their natural interests. And maybe hockey is something that he wants to do. Like he thinks karate’s dumb, but he thinks hockey’s interesting. ## DRAINING MY BANK ACCOUNT AND CONTROLLING MY TIME **Nancy:** It is a huge expense that is very draining. When he won’t even pay half of an AP test. **Anne:** And that might be part of it. He’s, let’s pick the most expensive thing to drain her bank account. **Nancy:** Yeah, it was a double bind to drain my bank account and control my time. And at the same time, if I have to back out of it. He’ll say, sorry, kids, Mom won’t let us go to hockey. **Anne:** He’s calculating ways to set you up to be the bad guy. **Nancy:** Yes, he is an expert at setting up situations, so my bank account is being drained, and I cover a hundred percent of their insurance. **Anne:** With a lot of these post-separation abuse situations. They get the benefits, but they don’t have any of the responsibilities, and they can use it against you, but it never works for you. They can bend the rules in order to benefit them, but you can’t bend the rules. **Nancy:** In the Living Free Workshop. It was helpful to see [how to deal with narcissistic abuse in marriage](https://www.btr.org/how-to-deal-with-narcissistic-abuse-in-marriage/) and how it plays out in separation, to find a way out of it. There was one thing you said, and this is when you’re moving away from his harm. You said, “If he escalates, remember that protecting yourself from the harm is not the cause of the harm. Just like evacuating a building was not the cause of the exploding gas lines.” ## HE STILL WANTS TO GET TOGETHER **Nancy:** That really hit me. One of the things that keeps haunting me is did I do the right thing? He still tries to get together personally with me. It constantly comes up that he wants to get together for coffee, or would I go to counseling with him, co-parenting counseling. I mostly ignore it at this point because he’s asked so many times. I don’t even answer him. Then if something goes wrong with the money situations or if there’s a point of disagreement, he will say, if you would’ve only met with me like I’ve asked, then this would’ve already been stopped. **Anne:** Yeah, we could’ve worked it out somehow, no. He would still lie. **Nancy:** It’s a trap. There’s that little 2% of me left that feels like, well, maybe I should meet with him, but no, it’s a trap. **Anne:** Yeah, no. **Nancy:** Because he never intends to do a nice thing. He just wants to get me in front of him again. I don’t think any good would come of it. **Anne:** A hundred percent, no. It might seem good, ’cause once you get there, it might seem good. He might like to turn on the manipulative lies to make you feel like he cares. I think one of the most abusive things people can say is, I love you or that I care. So manipulating you in that way is actually dangerous, and that’s probably what would happen. **Nancy:** I don’t think I could keep a straight face. It would skive me out so bad to be around him and hear stuff like that. ## EVERYTHING HE SAYS IS THE OPPOSITE OF THE TRUTH **Anne:** Well, it’s just further evidence of his controlling nature, because he desperately wants to hang on to control. And so he’s increasing his lies because it’s getting away from him. That’s definitely a sign that he’s been lying the whole time. **Nancy:** I completely agree. I know that this is better for them in the long run, but in the short run, that sentence helps me right now. That was probably one of the hardest things for me to come to terms with, is that he never loved me. He doesn’t love the children. None of it’s real. It’s all lies, and he still does it. It’s mind-boggling. Everything he says is the opposite of what the truth is. He continues lying as he did in programs like Celebrate Recovery near me. As we were moving through the separation process, the boys did not want to leave and crying and like holding onto the car seats. It was horrible. I knew if I said anything to him, he wouldn’t care. Any altercation would be scary for the kids. So I started getting third party exchange people through a new church. I actually found a church with a woman pastor, which is quite lovely. The new church was helpful and supportive, and there were several people that would help me with exchanges. And things changed, like taking the Living Free Workshop, and suddenly I felt a lot stronger. I had a new understanding and confidence, so I stopped doing the third party exchanges. He actually met with the principal to try to get the principal to agree with him that I’m not allowed to go into the school on his parenting weeks. ## LIKE IN CELEBRATE RECOVERY NEAR ME, A CLEAR EXAMPLE OF HIM LYING, CONTROLLING AND ABUSING **Nancy:** Which isn’t true. You’re allowed to visit your kid in the school. **Anne:** Absolutely. **Nancy:** Unless there’s a restraining order, which there’s not. We have shared custody, but he made it sound like the principal agreed with him. I didn’t think it was the truth, but it scared me at the time. And we were about to have a party, and I signed up to bring food, so I worried I would be kicked out. But the principal didn’t say anything. Isn’t that a clear example of parental alienation? **Anne:** It’s a clear way of him undermining your relationship with your kids, lying, controlling, and abusing you. This is how he’s literally abusing you and your children. **Nancy:** Everybody heard about this incident, and it didn’t matter. He made it sound like he had just been concerned for the children’s wellbeing. **Anne:** Yeah, no. **Nancy:** My being around them upset them. **Anne:** Lies. That’s the issue they lie in programs like Celebrate Recovery near me and fool the leaders. **Nancy:** It’s lies at times it is possible that they might be upset, but it’s not because they’re scared of me. It’s more that they’re sad about the situation. My one son, he told me, it makes him sad to see me when he knows he has to go back to his dad’s. My daughter had a phone before we separated, but he wouldn’t allow communication between the boys and me ever. Once, my son called me using his sister’s phone. He was crying. I was only on the phone for about two or three minutes, and then the phone cut off. And they told me when they came back that he had been mad at them for calling me. ## EVEN IF THERE IS A COURT ORDER, THEY WILL FIND A WAY AROUND IT **Nancy:** He wouldn’t allow them to have a watch phones either. That’s one of the reasons we went back to court. **Anne:** That’s the problem with court. You think if we get it in writing, then he’ll do it, but it doesn’t matter. He is not gonna do it no matter what. **Nancy:** This is what I have learned. I don’t ever wanna go back to court again, because it doesn’t help. No matter what you do, they’ll find a new way to cause harm. So there’s no point in any kind of new order. ‘Cause then they’ll find a new way around it. **Anne:** Exactly. **Nancy:** I’m still glad I went, because before I had been worried I had to do everything exactly perfectly or something would go wrong. And then I realized he’s doing wrong things on purpose. He just says stuff to get what he wants and nobody cares. So that has relieved a lot of fear. **Anne:** What would you share with listeners about what you’ve learned so far about finding help, maybe from Celebrate Recovery near me or elsewhere? **Nancy:** You know, hearing other people’s stories have meant so much to me, Living Free and the BTR coaches set me up for success. They told me to transfer half of our money to a separate bank account before I even told him that I might be leaving. That was incredibly helpful because I’m not sure if it would’ve been easy for me to get the money. I never used the word abuse or narcissism to him. That played out well, because he would’ve twisted it against me. **Anne:** A hundred percent. ## KIDS NEED TO KNOW WHAT A SAFE PLACE FEELS LIKE **Nancy:** Getting on the parenting app, super helpful, third parties for switches. Finding people to help with the things you need is just a lifesaver. I do feel like it will be better for the kids in the future, because they can be in a peaceful setting that’s not manipulative. So when they’re making decisions. About how they want to live and their future partners, that they know what it feels like to be in a safe place and being able to have discussions with them about men’s and women’s roles. **Anne:** Nancy, thank you so much for sharing your story today. And helping others who are searching, to find something truly helpful. **Nancy:** Thank you. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [The Truth About Signs of Emotional Manipulation in Marriage](https://www.btr.org/signs-of-emotional-manipulation/) **Published:** May 19, 2026 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** When your husband manipulates other people to believe his lies about you, here's what you need to know. **Content:** For many women, signs of emotional manipulation don’t stop with their husband. It often spreads outward, into families, faith communities, friend groups, and even professional support systems. Emotional manipulation can be especially destabilizing when it comes from people a woman expects to be supportive. Friends, family members, clergy, therapists, or neighbors may unintentionally reinforce harmful patterns, leaving her feeling isolated, blamed, or unsure where to turn. **Here are seven signs of emotional manipulation that often appear after a woman reaches out for help:** ## 7 SIGNS OF EMOTIONAL MANIPULATION WHEN SEEKING MARRIAGE HELP **1. Advice that centers on him instead of your emotional safety** Comments like, “He needs your support” don’t take into account that he might be lying or manipulating you. **2. Spiritual or moral language used to silence you.** Phrases like, just forgive or don’t keep score, pressure women to look on the bright side, when really they need to seek emotional safety. **3. Undermining reality.** Statements such as “it’s not that bad” or “you’re overreacting”, erase facts and blur the truth. **4. Discomfort disguised as reassurance** Often when someone is uncomfortable with hearing the truth, they rush to shut it down with statements like, “Everything will be okay.” When really they’re just pressuring a woman to stay silent. **5. Protecting his image over the truth** If you go for help and the people you ask for help are more worried about protecting his image than they are the truth, they might say something like, “You shouldn’t talk about your husband like that.” **6. Isolation through niceness** Well-meaning nice responses can leave you feeling alone, misunderstood, and less likely to reach out again. **7. Pressure to explain, convince, or educate** Being expected to justify why emotional manipulation is harmful drains energy that is needed for healing. Recognizing these patterns is an important step toward clarity. Emotional manipulation becomes even more powerful when it is reinforced by others, especially at the moment a woman is seeking understanding and support. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## HOW EDUCATION HELPS YOU RECOGNIZE SIGNS OF EMOTIONAL MANIPULATION SOONER Many women have found answers listening to[ The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast.](https://www.btr.org/podcast/) Our [BTR.ORG Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/) are a safe place to ask questions, process trauma, and express your emotions. If you’re unsure if what you’re experiencing is normal or toxic, take our [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/) to see if he’s using any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse. ## TRANSCRIPT: SIGNS OF EMOTIONAL MANIPULATION IN MARRIAGE **Anne:** I love hanging out with my good friend, Kate. Today we’re talking about signs of emotional manipulation, not just from your husband, but from other people he’s using to manipulate you. Because if he is manipulating you, he’s sometimes saying things in a loving, kind way and so he’s gonna talk to other people that way, and they’re gonna be like, “He seems so nice.” This is something that almost all 200 of the women that I’ve interviewed have faced, and Kate is really good at explaining why this happens. **Kate:** It’s not just religious. All culture is like, “Oh, you got to support your husband. You got to be the good wife.” I’m just like, “Support? What kind of support are you thinking? You mean like the first two years we were married where I just gave him so much love and support and it was amazing?” and then he lied. **Anne:** Sometimes really well-meaning people don’t realize that he’s been manipulating them. It’s extremely destabilizing when they don’t know what’s happening. Kate and I are going to focus on the manipulation that comes from outsiders like therapists, clergy, friends, family, whose responses, even though they’re well-meaning can leave women feeling isolated, blamed, or unsure of where to turn. So if you’re having marriage trouble, you need to hear this. We’re gonna talk about how you might respond to these comments. A lot of these responses might be for our own entertainment or benefit, like in our own head. We wouldn’t necessarily say this out loud, right, Kate? **Kate:** Yes! **Anne:** We need to be strategic in the way that we speak. If you’re interested in learning strategy, please take my workshop, go to btr.org/workshop where I give detailed instructions about strategic ways to respond to manipulators. ## EMOTIONAL MANIPULATION THROUGH WELL-MEANING BUT HURTFUL COMMENTS Kate and I aren’t necessarily doing strategy today. We’re more doing like what you can think in your own head so that you can feel better. So Kate, What’s a really common thing that betrayed women hear from outsiders who don’t actually understand the situation? Let’s just start with like rapid fire stuff we might hear from outsiders who have been manipulated. **Kate:** “Oh, you shouldn’t out your husband.” **Anne:** When they say, “out”, they mean you shouldn’t tell people the truth about what’s going on. **Kate:** If I say at church or anywhere that my husband is a addict, I’ve had people tell me, “Oh, you shouldn’t out your husband like that.” I’m like, “What? If he didn’t want to be outed, he shouldn’t have done it.” **Anne:** I know, and I shouldn’t have married him apparently. ![Signs of Emotional Manipulation in Marriage](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Signs-of-Emotional-Manipulation-In-Marriage--1024x1024.webp "Signs of Emotional Manipulation in Marriage")**Kate:** I love my story, I get to say whatever I want. It happened to me. He made his bed. **Anne:** And he shouldn’t have looked at it. So we’re even. **Kate:** If he didn’t want it, he shouldn’t have done it. **Anne:** Here’s another one a lot of people say, “He just needs your support.” **Kate:** Blech! **Anne:** Yeah, when we’re going for help, we’re telling people what’s going on, and they come back at us with a statement. Like if someone’s in addiction, they’re going to need your support and help. It feels terrible. I think in my head. Like what matters right now is what I need. I need his honesty. I need his fidelity. **Kate:** I’m like, “Support? What kind of support are you thinking? You mean, like the first two years we were married, where I gave him so much love and support, and it was amazing? And then he lied.” ## THE REALITY OF SUPPORTING AN EMOTIONALLY MANIPULATIVE HUSBAND **Anne:** I supported his butt out of the house. **Kate:** I supported him by doing what was best for me. **Anne:** Which was best for him. **Kate:** Yes. **Anne:** This one I’ve actually said to people, but I couldn’t say it with a smile on my face. I was saying it out of pain. I said something like, “No one should ever ask a victim to support their abuser, ever.” It is important to point this out so women know [how to recognize victim blaming. ](https://www.btr.org/how-to-recognize-victim-blaming/ "how to recognize victim blaming. ") **Kate:** It’s so true. What do you mean to support him? You mean what I’ve already done for so long and it didn’t work? We’ve given them so much support. **Anne:** Yeah for me, I was managing things, so well. Supporting him so much that I didn’t realize how bad it was. Also those general principles that everybody tells us, like love, serve, forgive and support that are principles I believe into my core. I wasn’t willing to ditch those right off the bat and go with safety. I mean, I had to try supporting him. So I had to try making his therapy appointments and all that to get, to gain my own realization. That it was not going to work. What do you think? Have you ever met a woman who just went straight to boundaries. **Kate:** No, actually. I think it’s kind of normal. And I don’t necessarily see it as a bad thing. I see it as you have to try this one way to know it doesn’t work. It’s not just religious. All culture is like, “Oh, you got to support your husband. You got to be the good wife.” We are loving people, and we try it. Of course, we’ll want to help someone. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## SIGNS OF EMOTIONAL MANIPULATION: THE CHOCOLATE CAKE ANALOGY **Kate:** Let’s say our husbands were healthy people and struggling. It would be good for us to help them. But yeah, we have to learn that our help will not help them like we think it will. **Anne:** Let’s say you bought a giant chocolate cake from Costco once a week. And your husband. Is like, Hey, I don’t want to eat chocolate cake anymore. Would you mind helping me? You’re like, “Sure, what can I do?” And he says, “Would you mind not buying chocolate cake from Costco every week?” And you’re like, yeah. No problem, happy to do that. And then he’s grateful. and he says, “Thank you for not buying chocolate cake. I super appreciate it.” And that’s it. You don’t buy the cake. He doesn’t need it. No big deal. When he ate chocolate cake, it didn’t hurt you. And it’s no big deal to not buy it. But with viewing explicit content he’s essentially gaslighting you and victim blaming you saying. “I need help not hurting you,” which is essentially saying, “If you did something different, I wouldn’t hurt you”. **Kate:** Exactly, it comes from the entitlement and resentments, so frustrating. ## UNHELPFUL REACTIONS FROM OTHERS **Anne:** Another one I encountered was a woman who lived in my ex’s neighborhood, and I knew her from before. ” I said, I’m concerned about my kids. Can you keep an eye out for them?” I told her a little bit, and the whole time she looked uncomfortable. Instead of saying, “Of course, I’ll keep an eye out for them. This must be stressful to you!” She said, “It’s okay. I don’t know why you’re freaking out. Your kids are going to be fine.” I couldn’t think of anything to say in that moment. I don’t know if I should have said anything. I think I might’ve said, “It’s not okay. It’s not okay.” Then I just walked off because I was super mad. **Kate:** That makes no sense. I think I would have been like, “Thank you, I feel so much better! Yes, that is so helpful. Okay, not freaking out now.” Then just walk away with this ridiculous fake smile. **Anne:** You know what’s crazy? You saying it’s gonna be okay erases all the facts. I appreciate you waving your magic wand of the words, *it’s okay*, which apparently in your mind are magic and they make facts disappear, thank you. **Kate:** “You just magically made my husband better. Thanks!” **Anne:** “Or the situation, is now fine. Yeah, thanks.” Other things you can think of? ## THE MISUSE OF FORGIVENESS **Kate:** Forgiveness, “Just have a little more forgiveness for your husband.” **Anne:** When people say ‘forgiveness’ now, do you know *Hamilton*? **Kate:** Yes. **Anne:** Forgiveness I’m not singing it right because I can’t sing, but that word, when they sing it like that, it’s like this burst of peace coming through and happiness. It feels cool in the musical. For those familiar with *Hamilton*, you might know what I’m talking about. If you don’t, sorry, I didn’t mean to ruin it for you. **Kate:** Actually, when you said Hamilton, I was thinking of the stand up comedy from Katherine Ryan. I don’t know if I can watch *Hamilton* now because I will be thinking of her the entire time. **Anne:** Wait. When I said Hamilton, you were thinking who? **Kate:** Katherine Ryan does a stand up about *Hamilton*. She calls out the misogynistic crap in some of the parts. It is so funny. Anyway, sorry, sidetracked… the forgiveness. I’m like, “What do you mean forgiveness?” If it was something that was in the past and the threat was over, I could maybe understand. Even then, it’s still nobody else’s business. Forgiveness is not like all of a sudden, “okay, I’m done.” Sometimes it’s like baby steps. There are so many little things to forgive. It’s not just one big lump thing. So when someone says forgiveness, I’m like, “yes, maybe when the threat is over and I’ve had time to cool down.” **Anne:** Like how is me forgiving him going to stop him from harming me? This is [the truth about forgiving abuse. ](https://www.btr.org/the-truth-about-forgiving-abuse/ "the truth about forgiving abuse. ") **Kate:** Yeah, it doesn’t make any sense. **Anne:** I think this is a useful exercise. Forcing forgiveness is an [effect of spiritual abuse.](https://www.btr.org/effects-of-spiritual-abuse/ "effect of spiritual abuse.") ## SIGNS OF EMOTIONAL MANIPULATION FROM UNSAFE PEOPLE **Anne:** There are safe people who we could actually have a conversation, explain how we feel, and talk about these things. They would be like, “Oh, yes. I’ve never thought about that before and I totally see it. I’m so sorry.” I have a super good friend who when neither of us knew what was happening, she said all the wrong things. But when I started talking to her about it and how I felt, she got it. She’s a safe person because she understood. She was like, “I can’t believe I said that stuff to you. I am so sorry. I was only trying to be helpful and I totally missed the boat.” The problem with trying to have a witty comeback or just the right thing to say to someone when they don’t understand is number one, you could hurt a safe person. Like if you’re snarky or sarcastic, it could actually hurt their feelings, and then it could push safe people away. The second thing is that if they’re never gonna be a safe person, you’re just setting yourself up for your abuser to groom other people around you that it’s your fault. They’ll think, “What is wrong with her? She’s rude.” Or, ” She doesn’t forgive. She doesn’t live a biblical life. Doesn’t she know she’s supposed to submit?” **Kate:** ” She’s must be so mean. Oh, the poor husband!” ## PEOPLE FEEL SORRY FOR HUSBANDS **Anne:** I think in, at least our church culture, Kate and I have the same faith, a very outspoken woman, sometimes people feel sorry for her husband. Do you think that? **Kate:** Oh my gosh, yes. A million times over, yes. They will always feel way more sorry for the man than the woman. It’s obnoxious. Even my own family has done it. Everybody knows, it’s not a secret, **Anne:** But **Kate:** There was one time I mentioned in front of family members. He’s sitting right next to me. He knows this. I know this. It’s like my [husband is enmeshed](https://www.btr.org/how-do-you-know-when-your-marriage-is-over/) with his family in a bad way. But my sister ended up telling me, “You called out your husband?” They were feeling so bad for him, because he just sat there and didn’t say anything. He looked so embarrassed. I ended up asking my husband, “Were you embarrassed?” He’s like, “What? No.” He ended up actually writing them all a email. I mean, he sent it before he even told me he was going to do it. He basically was like, “No, I have ruined her life. I’ve done this, I’ve done this, I’ve done this. She’s still allowed to tell whoever she wants.” It was very validating, but it’s still frustrating, because even though he sent that email, I guarantee most people would still be like, “Yeah, but she must be so controlling. Maybe she forced him to write that email?” Or, “Oh, poor, poor man.” It’s frustrating. ## GO TO A BTR GROUP SESSION TO PROCESS HURTFUL COMMENTS **Anne:** In our faith, it seems like a lot of the men might go in and confess to their clergy or something, and instead of getting some type of, “Whoa, this is serious. You are not following Jesus at all. Maybe we need to protect people from you because your behavior is pretty atrocious.” Instead of saying that a lot of times they’ll tell these abusers, “Oh, you’re not really that bad. You’re great.” **Kate:** “Oh, you just need more church. Go to the temple. Here, we’ll give you a calling; this will help you.” **Anne:** “Volunteer more. ” Yeah, exactly. If you need to process your own trauma through thinking, “Okay, these are the things I could have said.” Talk to your friends. Talk to [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session](https://www.btr.org/group/) clients in a group session. because When someone says something like that to you, it causes an injury. Sometimes it can be pretty extreme. Sometimes it can be minor. It depends on where you are in your trauma healing process. Like now when people say stuff to me, the injury to me is a lot less than it used to be. But, to validate people who are like, “Why do these little comments the nice, 80 year old woman at church tells me, or my neighbor hurt me so much?” Maybe to just validate women and say, “Of course, they’re going to hurt you. Of course, you’re going to need to process it.” You’re going to go through this time in your head where you think, “What could I have said back to this person that could have either educated them or put them in their place?” ## STRATEGIES TO RESPOND TO SIGNS OF EMOTIONAL MANIPULATION **Anne:** You don’t want to put an 80 year old woman in her place, that’s just not nice. And if they really, truly don’t want to get it, then educating them isn’t going to work. So validate that we need to process it. Then, to consider that it’s not our job, and we don’t have to worry about educating other people or putting them in their place. **Kate:** I think it’s beneficial to come up with the witty comments, but not necessarily to say them, because it doesn’t ever really help. I love coming up with the funny comments, but it’s more fun to then tell it to friends afterwards. It’s more funny then because that way you’re not hurting other people. But you can still find some humor in it so it doesn’t feel so heavy. I know that in some circumstances it is best not to say much. Because they’re going to try to make you in the wrong no matter what. There are many circumstances where I prefer to be vulnerable, not necessarily for them, but for me. Even if it’s just as simple as, “Oh, that kind of hurt my feelings.” Or, “Well, he’s hurt me a lot. I’m still processing.” I like to be vulnerable. That’s empowering for me. It actually gets the better responses from people, where they’re not defensive. **Anne:** Rather than a snarky, sarcastic one. **Kate:** They’re still not going to always want to learn, but it might help them think twice. But again, that’s not the reason. The reason is because it empowers me to be honest. **Anne:** I think being honest is always a good idea. My concern is safety. ## ENGAGING IN CONVERSATIONS ABOUT TRAUMA **Anne:** Could you put yourself in a place where you could be harmed by that person? We might think, “Oh, I’m not safe to say this to someone.” If we say, “I’m super sad because my husband is abusive.” If they don’t like us, however they felt before is how they’re going to feel after. It’s not like suddenly they’re going to be like, wow, I like you now, or I don’t like you now. You’re not going to change someone who really liked you and cared about you to someone who doesn’t like you and cared about you. **Kate:** Yeah, it does. I also think when it comes to safety, a lot of times I find that safety within me. Yes, somebody might make me feel unsafe, but it doesn’t make me feel unsafe to the point where I’m not going to say, “Hey, that hurt my feelings.” I’m still safe enough to do that, because it’s more empowering for me later on. It’s hard to explain. It’s hard to put this in words. I have not come across a time where I have been honest and vulnerable, and it made me more unsafe. And I was like, I shouldn’t have done that. Because I always learned from it. This isn’t going to work for everybody. I’m not saying everybody should be like this, because there are some horrible people out there. Sometimes the best thing is to not say anything. ## DECIDING IF IT’S SAFE TO SHARE TRAUMA **Anne:** I think I was like that more at the beginning when I discovered about my ex husband’s addiction. I’d see somebody at Costco and they’d be like, “How are you?” I’d be like, “Really bad, I just found out my husband lied to me for six years, and he’s using pornography, and it stinks. But it’s super good to see you. How are you doing?” After that, they’d be like, “uh?” So I would do this quite a bit in the beginning, and now I’m less like that. Number one, because I’m not living in my trauma as much anymore. If they asked me, how am I doing today? I’d be like, “Great, I’m doing great. I ate a vegetable.” You know, it’s not like the thing on my mind. So it would be easy for me to talk about something else. I think I’ve learned to be a little more guarded, because I thought shouting it to the world would bring safety. If everybody knew, how could he do it? I realized that did not keep me safe. So for that reason, I think about safety a little differently than I thought before. **Kate:** It doesn’t go over too well when you’re like, “You know what? My husband just lied to me, and so I’m a little upset. I just found out he’s a big fat liar.” **Anne:** It goes over super well in [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/), or with a close friend, like Kate, who understands it. ## WHEN EXPERIENCING SIGNS OF EMOTIONAL MANIPULATION, BALANCE HONESTY & SAFETY **Anne:** So if you have a safe place to go, then yeah, share it there. **Kate:** I think you can still be honest in those circumstances without actually saying all of it. You could just say, “You know what? Eh, I’m so so. I’m alive. I’m okay.” You don’t have to be like, “I’m great.” Then be like, “I’m dying inside.” You can still find ways to be honest. **Anne:** Saying something like, “Things are really, really hard for me right now.” And if they say, “Oh, what’s wrong?” Be like, ” I can tell you want to help and you care about me by asking me, but talking about it’s not going to help. You know what would help? If you fix my sprinklers. Or, bring me a pizza. **Kate:** That one would be great. **Anne:** We’re just exploring this together and that’s what the podcast is for. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast **Tags:** Male Exploitative Privilege --- ### [6 Things a Cheating Husband Says: What You Need to Know](https://www.btr.org/cheating-husband-says/) **Published:** May 26, 2026 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** If he's cheating, here's what he'll say to blame you. **Content:** If you’ve been betrayed by your husband, you’ve probably replayed every conversation in your head. What he said. What it *meant*. Here are six things a cheating husband says that may seem innocent, or even remorseful, but are actually manipulative and abusive. You deserve safety. Clarity. Truth. Take my [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/) to see if you’re experiencing this. ## 1. CHEATING HUSBAND SAYS, “IT’S BECAUSE YOU WERE PREGNANT.” At first, this sounds like a confession wrapped in vulnerability. But let’s be clear: blaming betrayal on *your pregnancy* is a covert form of abuse. He’s saying, “You made me do this.” He’s shifting responsibility for **his** betrayal onto **your** body, and your vulnerability. This isn’t guilt…it’s manipulation. ## 2. “I’VE HAD THIS ADDICTION SINCE I WAS A KID.” If your cheating husband says this, it might trigger your compassion, and that’s the point. Yes, trauma is real. But past trauma is not a free pass to traumatize others. When a man uses his childhood as a shield against accountability, he’s not trying to heal. He’s trying to keep you from leaving. ## 3. “LET’S GET HELP.” This one is tricky. At first, it seems like progress. Counseling. Support groups. Healing. But what if he’s lying in those sessions? What if he’s telling the therapist half-truths, or worse, repeating the kind of things a cheating husband says to shift blame onto you? Many women spend years in therapy trying to “fix” the marriage, when the real issue is that **he’s abusive, not confused**. ## 4. “YOU’RE JUST NOT SUPPORTIVE ENOUGH.” If your cheating husband says *you’re* the problem, he’s counting on you to believe him. Women in these situations often over-function, working double-time to prove they’re loving, patient, faithful. Meanwhile, he’s lying, gaslighting, and keeping secrets. This isn’t a marriage. It’s a mind game. ## 5. “I’M SOBER NOW.” He might say he’s changed. That he’s not using anymore. But his actions don’t match. He’s distant. Emotionally cold. You feel invisible in your own home. But in public? He’s pouring your coffee. Smiling like the perfect husband. This tactic, acting loving in front of others while rejecting you in private, is **covert emotional abuse**. ## 6. “YOU’RE EMOTIONALLY ABUSIVE.” This one is the hardest. When you finally draw a boundary or leave, the cheating husband says *you’re* the toxic one. He tells your church, your family, your friends: “She’s crazy.” “She ruined the marriage.” “I tried everything.” This tactic is called **DARVO**: Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender. And it’s one of the most psychologically damaging parts of betrayal. ## WHY IT HURTS SO MUCH When your cheating husband says things like this, the trauma goes deeper than infidelity. It’s not just about sex or secrets. It’s about **emotional coercion** and **psychological manipulation**. And if you feel confused, isolated, or like you’re slowly losing your grip on reality, you’re not crazy. You’re experiencing **betrayal trauma**. This interview dives deeper into one woman’s story. Pay attention and you’ll hear how her husband used every one of these to make her thing his cheating was her fault. ## TRANSCRIPT: 6 THINGS CHEATING HUSBAND SAYS Anne: Kathleen a member of our community is on today’s podcast. She’s going to share her story. Welcome, Kathleen. Kathleen: Hi Anne. Thanks for having me on today. Anne: We’re grateful that you’re brave enough to share your story to help other women. We’re talking about how your cheating husband says that it’s your fault. So why don’t you start with your backstory? What was your situation? Kathleen: I guess from day one of my marriage, I felt like something wasn’t right and I could never put my finger on. We were, I thought, happily married, had a child. Then shortly after my second child was born, I just felt that something wasn’t right. ## DISCOVERING HIS INFIDELITY Kathleen: I found out, unfortunately, that my husband was into exploitative material, and that was just devastating. I felt like everything was over. Although I didn’t want to end the marriage, I felt like my perfect world with my newer marriage, my two sweet children, our sweet little family was just ruined. It just was not what I thought it was. We immediately tried to get help. Unfortunately, he was lying to me. He blamed it on my pregnancy with my first and second child—something I later realized is exactly the kind of thing a *cheating husband says* to avoid taking responsibility. For years this went on with him dabbling in help. I just kept with it, trying to stay strong, trying to stay in the marriage. I never even thought this type of infidelity was abusive. We kept going and we had our good times and then our bad times. When things were bad, they were very bad. Things were good sometimes, but it was really not much to hold on to. So, we went on like this for probably fourteen to fifteen years until we got help together. Through working with them over about a two year period, I started to see, that my husband just did not want to do the work to get better. Which made us pretty much come to a halt. We separated about two summers ago for three months. He was able to come back and about two months after that, he was out for good. Since then, he blamed everything on me. ## REALIZING THE INFIDELITY WAS EMOTIONAL & PSYCHOLOGICAL ABUSE Anne: Let’s talk about those years of thinking he has an addiction and going down that route for a while. Did you ever consider you were dealing with an emotional and psychological abuser? Kathleen: I had no idea. Anne: And did anyone ever mention it to you? Like he’s been unfaithful, he’s abusive? Kathleen: No, never. If anything, it was the opposite. It was, let’s help him. Let’s see what we could do to help him. Anne: Or he’s such a good guy. We can’t understand why he’s doing this thing. Let’s get him some help. Kathleen: Absolutely. Yeah. Or his past, you know, he had a rough upbringing, so this is why he’s doing it. Anne: Right. Yeah. I often say, I know several people who have had a really super hard upbringing and they’re not abusers. So it’s not really a reason to be abusive ## CHALLENGES WITH CLERGY WHO DON’T RECOGNIZE ABUSE Anne: . He went for years to a well known Catholic counselor and men’s purity groups. Do you feel like they really understand that infidelity is abuse? Kathleen: Absolutely not. We started with this one counselor, the well known Catholic counselor in infidelity expertise, and I felt like I was blamed in this situation, the same way a cheating husband says things that shift responsibility, and I just bailed quickly. Something in my gut told me, get away. Then, the last year or so, I heard that he might have changed the way he helped women and couples. I decided, let me give it another try. It was at least 15 years later. Unfortunately, it was just the same thing. It was one session and done. No, there’s no change. It’s very unfortunate because these seem to be the people we turn to when you have a problem. It just causes more trauma for the women. Anne: Right, what are some of the things that the priests said to you or did that was so traumatizing that blamed you? Kathleen: In my parish? Yeah, so my parish priest actually supported me. **Anne:** When you mean support, when you say supported, do you mean financially? **Kathleen:** Not financially, there’s really no financial support. It was just an emotional support. He listened, he understood. He suggested I might have to separate with my husband, which I took that very seriously. Maybe four months later, we separated. After my husband went and talked to the pastor and the parish priest, both decided to take sides with him, which I don’t even know why a side had to be taken. ## CHEATING HUSBAND SAYS OTHERS SHOULD STAY NEUTRAL Anne: I can tell you why. Kathleen: Go ahead. Anne: A side does need to be taken. A neutral party will always benefit the perpetrator. The problem is, most of the time, they side with the perpetrator. instead of the victim. Because in an abuse situation, there’s a perpetrator and a victim. If you stay neutral and say, well, she’s got her side of the story and he has his side of the story and the truth is somewhere in the middle, that means that you believe what he is saying a little bit. These are some of the confusing factors when deciding if you [should stay married after infidelity. ](/should-you-stay-married-after-infidelity/ "should stay married after infidelity. ") Maybe she’s lying a little bit rather than recognizing, no, this is a perpetrator. He’s going to do everything he can to avoid accountability and blame his victim. And a victim who’s telling the truth, who’s trying to get to safety. So, it’s really important for people to take sides, but they need to take sides with the right party. They need to protect the victim. Any type of neutrality or even thinking, well, he couldn’t be that bad, is harmful to the victim. Since infidelity is abusive to partners, taking the right side is important. ## WHEN CHEATING HUSBAND CONVINCES OTHERS IT’S YOUR FAULT Kathleen: Right. And that’s a lot of what I’ve been experiencing. He’s been getting into the ear of anybody who knew us and telling them how horrible I have been, the same kind of story-spinning a cheating husband says to protect himself. Getting back to the priest, the priest was the one who was spreading that I was a liar and I have manipulated the entire situation. Anybody in this situation that I was in would have taken the advice he gave. Which, I don’t even know what help he was talking about. Anne: This is one of the ways [abusers manipulate their victims.](/abusers-manipulate-their-victims/ "abusers manipulate their victims.") People don’t understand that an abuser claiming that his victim is the abuser is abuse. Kathleen: Absolutely. So, this abuse has not only extended to him lying to everybody about you and blaming you, but also roping third party people. Like a priest in your parish or other people, to also abuse you through blaming you. ## WHEN CHEATING HUSBAND SAYS IT’S BECAUSE OF YOU Kathleen: That’s exactly what’s happening now. I can honestly say that this secondary abuse is way worse than what I experienced directly from my husband. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) Anne: Why would you say that is? I agree with you. I’ve experienced it as well. And I agree. But for our listeners, in your opinion, why do you think that is? Kathleen: Well, I think, first of all, it’s my own healthy pride. I want to be an upstanding Christian and a good person. Now people see me as a liar and a manipulator, which I’m not. The other part of it is that, I’ve lost my community. I had to leave my church and go to a different church. It’s very hard because I feel like a lot of people look down their nose at me and I just try to hold my head high and have faith in God to get me through. ## RECOGNIZING THE FULL EXTENT OF HIS INFIDELITY Anne: When did you realize that all these years of, “Something’s not quite right.” When did you realize that was just flat out emotional and psychological abuse and coercion? Kathleen: I always knew that it wasn’t right. I knew it wasn’t healthy, but I didn’t realize it was abuse until after our second separation. When surfing the internet one night looking at abuse and decided to call our local abuse shelter. I called and said, I don’t know if I’m being abused. From the information that I gave them about what happened to me, they assured me that I was absolutely being abused. They also helped me to see that other behaviors that had happened in our marriage were abuse that I didn’t even realize were wrong, not just the things my cheating husband says, but the patterns behind them. I mean, I’ve been emotionally, psychologically, financially, and even physically abused. I didn’t realize I was also being physically abused. Anne: Did that shock you because you’d never called an abuse specialist before, right? You’d always called maybe a marriage counselor or, some type of clergy or some kind of addiction specialist. Were you shocked that immediately right out of the gate, these people never talked to you before? We’re like, yeah, this is super abusive and that you’d never heard it from anyone else. Kathleen: I was, and I felt it was such a disadvantage. Going through this, it was always focusing on his infidelity. I was always searching for addiction services for spouses, the help for that, and I couldn’t find anything to help with what a cheating husband says. But all the behaviors surrounding it make it abuse. ## **FINDING SUPPORT & BETRAYAL TRAUMA RECOVERY** Kathleen: It was mind boggling and maddening to know that there was nothing out there. I never wanted to go to marriage counseling for some reason. I knew in my gut, it was not a marriage issue. It was infidelity and it was his problem . So I was grateful for that, but it was hard to find help. Anne: When did you find [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/best-support-for-betrayal-trauma/ "BTR.ORG Group Sessions Are Your Safe Space")? Kathleen: I think I found it probably about a year and a half ago, maybe two years ago. Just found BTR online and saw there was [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast ](https://www.btr.org/group/)and religiously started to listen because it was the only place that got it. Anne: What did you think after years of the, help him, be gentle with him because he has these childhood problems. Let’s try not to trigger him, don’t shame him, are you a good wife? Are you giving him it when he needs it? What did you think after coming to BTR and listening? What did that feel like for you? Kathleen: I just felt like there was a place that understood what it really was and I knew that it was the right place to get the information that I needed to educate myself. ## **LYING, MANIPULATION, GASLIGHTING ARE INFIDELITY** Anne: It’s like you know it in your gut, but you don’t have words for it. You don’t have a place to process it appropriately. If you try to process it with the addiction people and they tell you, no, it’s you and you need to be patient then it halts your processing, it stops you. It’s like floating around, but you can’t ever grab it. It’s like foggy and you can’t quite get out of that fog. Kathleen: Right. I always knew, I always had the gut feeling and I would thankfully go with my gut feeling, but I could never put my finger on where things were going wrong. I mean, I never caught him using it again, I always was asking myself the question is he using or is he not? He claims sobriety. Those claims, the things a cheating husband says, kept me doubting myself.But based on what I know now and looking back, I know he was still using. I know he was because I know the way he behaved, it’s obvious because infidelity is abuse. I know the way that he kept me at a distance. He wouldn’t engage with me at all emotionally, which devastated me. It was like I was a stranger in our house, but outside he acted like husband of the year. He would get coffee for me in front of other people. He would act like he was just so in love when he was with me in public, which is part of the reason why people just don’t understand the situation and they believe him that I’m the liar and the manipulator. ## SECRECY OF INFIDELITY MAKES IT TRAUMATIC Anne: When you changed your outward talk from did the third party people get more angry with you? Are they like, whoa, wait a minute. You’ve said he’s a addict. Now you’re claiming he’s an abuser? Did they get more upset? Kathleen: Well, not really because nobody knew he was a user. That was secret. It was my own private secret that I lived in. My family didn’t know. Our friends didn’t know. Nobody knew. I didn’t tell people. I was very much ashamed that was in our marriage. Anne: Okay, did you tell people when you recognized it was abuse, did you start saying, he’s abusive? Kathleen: Once we were separated for the second time and it was pretty much out there that we were no longer together. Yes. I told people that he had abused explicit online media and that he was abusive. I was trying to get myself to safety. My family is so supportive, tremendously supportive, even more than I even thought that they could be. I’ve had friends that I wasn’t that close with, but they understood because of their own experiences through their life. They are like a rock to me, but then a lot of people that I thought I could count on, just disappeared or sided with him. ## PEOPLE WHO ARE UNEDUCATED ABOUT INFIDELITY DON’T KNOW IT CAUSES TRAUMA Anne: Yeah. I’ve seen that happen too. It’s really interesting. Even a couple of friends that we had that her husband is also a user have decided to side with my ex. They’re still married. I wonder if they think, well, if we talk to Anne, she’s so intent on saying infidelity is abuse, maybe our marriage would be in jeopardy, so we don’t want to go down that route. I’m not sure why they’ve decided to do that, but he’s still exhibiting abusive behaviors from my perspective, but of course they can’t see that. Why would you want to be friends with an abuser? That makes no sense to me, Kathleen: Right. Anne: Also I think we can clearly see that they’re lying and manipulating people, but they can’t see it. Kathleen: No, and there is a part of me that has a little sympathy for the third party people. I believed my husband’s lies for years. I mean, my whole relationship was based on the lies a cheating husband says to protect himself. Anne: Yep, and if we couldn’t see it, they don’t even live with him. Of course it would be hard for them to see it too. Kathleen: Right, he’s good at lying. Anne: Good at manipulation, good at grooming, really. Kathleen: Absolutely. Anne: A lot of women are hoping that their relationship will work out and hoping that once he’s confronted about his abusive behaviors he will get into some type of program and get help. ## IMPORTANCE OF TRUTH & FULL DISCLOSURE IN WHAT A CHEATING HUSBAND SAYS Anne: If they go down the addiction recovery route, many programs do what is known as a full disclosure. Where the abuser is supposed to outline all of his indiscretions, but doesn’t necessarily include all abuse episodes. Since you went down that route for a little while, did you ever have a quote unquote full disclosure with the help of an addiction specialist? Then you have to figure out if your [husband’s apology is genuine](/husband-apologizes-how-to-know-if-its-genuine/ "husbands apology is genuine"). Kathleen: No, unfortunately I did not. Anything that I found out about my husband was either me finding out by catching him or him over the years, basically, drip feeding me information and I would figure things out. Anne: You say unfortunately. Is that something that you think would have helped you or why did you say unfortunately? Kathleen: I say unfortunately because without any truth, there is no basis for your relationship and I never received truth. That’s part of the reason or a main reason why my marriage fell apart. If he was truthful with me, I feel like maybe we could have fixed things and worked on it better. Anne: A lot of people get a full disclosure, but it’s not a full disclosure. So there are times where a cheating husband says he’s told the whole truth, but it’s not the full truth. And that, fake full truth is very difficult for victims because they think, oh, finally we have the whole truth. ## DISCOVERING THE TRUTH IS DIFFICULT Anne: But they don’t. The other thing I think is interesting is, fake histories that they might give as excuses. I am not about to say that your husband wasn’t actually abused, but some of them do say things like that as an excuse. For example, I know of one abuser who told his victim that he was abused by a neighbor, but she is now 100 percent convinced that he abused the neighbor. Kathleen: I believe there could be some truth to that. I took what my husband told me with a grain of salt, but he said he was abused, I took it seriously to protect my children. Anne: Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s one thing that’s difficult to know when you’re dealing with an abusive and manipulative man who is willing to lie at all costs, is that truth that you think you know might not be the truth at all. A full disclosure might not be a full disclosure. I want to give women who think, I wish I could have gotten a full disclosure and he would have told me the truth. If someone does not want to tell you the full truth, they might pretend to give it to you. That might be as harmful as not knowing anything. When we’re dealing with someone who lies at this scale, What worries me is the fake truth that women think that they receive and then they feel safe because they feel like they’ve received it all when it’s just the tip of the iceberg. ## WOMEN FEEL BETRAYAL TRAUMA BECAUSE CHEATING HUSBAND SAYS IT’S HER FAULT Kathleen: That’s a good point and I think that with my husband, the way he is, nothing that ever came out of his mouth to me was truthful. Early on, I did pray to God to let me know what I needed to know. I guess I’ll just be grateful that I know what I know and that’s all I need to know. Anne: Isn’t that interesting. As women of faith who decided to divorce, can we talk about your decision to divorce or are you divorced? Kathleen: Not officially. I actually separated from my husband with the intent for him to go get help. Through that time, he chose to go live with his, suspected abuser, or at least who he claims abused him. He went to live with him for over a year. It was his brother. Anne: His brother. Okay. So he chooses to go live with the person who he has told you abused him? Kathleen: Yes, which was a huge red flag to me. Because he claimed this, but then went to live with him. Then he decided about a year ago that he wanted to file for divorce. Anne: That sounds really similar to my story, by the way. My ex claimed that he was abused by his parents and that his parents were really abusive, but hangs out with them all the time, without saying that their behaviors have changed. There is no claim, they’re totally different now. ## NAVIGATING COMMUNITY JUDGMENT AND ISOLATION WHEN A CHEATING HUSBAND SAYS YOU’RE THE PROBLEM Kathleen: Right now I’m really struggling with the community thing. It’s really tough to live in a community of people. It’s even where I work. The school that I teach at is where my children attend and it’s part of a small Catholic community. There I am working amongst people who think what my cheating husband says is true…that I’m the liar and manipulator and the marriage ruiner. So, it’s tough. Anne: That is really, really hard. I am very sorry. I pray often that the truth is known to people somehow. There are days, do you ever do this? Where you read the local newspaper, thinking that you’ll see him in the newspaper? Do you ever do that? Kathleen: I feel like someday I will hear that he has like either a DUI or was arrested or something. Anne: Yeah. Kathleen: He works at a local high school, so. Always worried about that as well. Anne: It’s so strange to think that someone who has not taken any accountability is still just walking around. Not only just walking around, but affecting your life at such a level. Especially when you are the victim of his abuse without people really acknowledging or being compassionate or empathetic about your situation. Instead, being more judgmental, it feels more isolating. Kathleen: Right, yeah, it does. Then, you get your wishy-washy people who say, I don’t want to choose a side. That’s probably one of the worst things you can say to somebody who’s abused. Especially if her abuser has [covert narcissist traits](/covert-narcissist-traits/). Because it’s like, “I don’t take you seriously.” ## WHEN OTHERS SIDE WITH WHAT A CHEATING HUSBAND SAYS Anne: Yeah, I don’t believe you. I confront people about that. I would not recommend it, by the way. But I say, you need to pick a side. Because I’m a victim of abuse and he’s a perpetrator. Would you like to stand with a victim and stop enabling a perpetrator, or not? Kathleen: Right. Anne: They don’t like that one bit. People feel very uncomfortable about that. Then they think, Oh, she really is crazy. Kathleen: It’s amazing how their crazy look makes us look more crazy. Anne: Instead of thinking, Oh, they don’t like us, or they don’t like what we say about abuse, or they think we’re going too far when we call these guys abusers. I think it’s more strategic to have a surprised posture, in your head. You don’t want to like insult people, like, that’s surprising to me. I didn’t know that you were here from 1830. In a time machine and that you didn’t know abusers do this and that what you’re saying is an extension of his abuse. Well, weird. I mean it’s more strategic to have an attitude or an energy about us that is more surprise than traumatized. It’s impossible to not be traumatized when someone says something triggering, that’s obviously harmful, that’s not empathetic, or not caring at all. It’s impossible not to be hurt by that. I wonder if we all took this, I’m shocked. A therapist wrote and said, I don’t agree with BTR’s model. I don’t think it’s abusive. So I can’t associate with you. My first email to him back was like, I’m so sorry. That makes sense. I wish you the best. ## **EMOTIONAL ABUSE & WHAT A CHEATING HUSBAND SAYS** Anne: Then I thought, wait a minute. I’m not going to write this. I’m writing, Oh, I’m surprised to hear that lying and manipulation are emotional and psychological abuse. That’s what I wrote. He wrote back and said, Oh, I do. I recognize it’s abuse. I just don’t agree with what BTR says. And I’m like, Hmm? He said, I don’t think infidelity is abusive, is what he said. This is a prominent therapist out there. Kathleen: Wow. Anne: And I was like, Okay, whatever. Kathleen: That’ll leave me to believe. Well, what’s going on in your world? Why are you, defending it? Anne: Yeah. Why would anyone think that viewing someone abusing isn’t participating in abuse in some way? Or at the very least sending your energy somewhere other than your wife. What do you want to call that? If you don’t want to call it abuse. Kathleen: I call that infidelity. Anne: Infidelity is also abusive, right? Why are you so afraid of the word abuse? Kathleen: I guess because it’s so strong and so many people think of it as hitting their wife, instead of what a cheating husband says. It’s so just extreme to call something abuse. I think that’s part of the problem. People need education on it. Anne: What you went through is extreme. To say that, it’s too extreme to call it abuse. You went through years of psychological and emotional abuse and coercion. You are still a victim of abuse in your community from a perpetrator who is talking to your community about you and lying about you. ## **THE ONGOING STRUGGLE WITH ABUSE** Anne: If you don’t call that extreme, what is? In terms of the way it affects you on a daily basis, that is extreme. It’s abuse. There’s no other word for it. Kathleen: Right. He’s still able to be in contact with me, unfortunately, because of our children, which leads the door open for him to continue to abuse me. Anne: Exactly. You do your best to set boundaries, you do your best to heal, all those things that are healthy. It’s not impossible. You will live an amazing life, and things will get better for you over time. But they don’t understand that there’s no way to stop him from abusing you. Kathleen: Right. It’s a shame because, our judicial system and even co-parent counseling, they just don’t understand how what a cheating husband says can hurt you. And it’s difficult because the boundaries that you set up are torn down or changed because you have to follow. Anne: The parenting plan or something. Kathleen: Yeah. Parenting plan or some kind of legal plan. Anne: This is why I created my [Clarity After Betrayal Workshop](/clarity/). Have you ever talked to the legal system or your attorney about being emotionally and psychologically abused and you need a parallel parenting plan? Kathleen: He is very well aware. We just started a second co-parent counseling and I do want to ask if we could do a parallel parenting plan. **Anne:** Yeah, it’s a difficult situation, and it’s ongoing, divorce doesn’t stop the abuse. It can protect us from a lot of things, but it can’t stop the things a cheating husband says. So that’s what’s really difficult. And so many victims now are praying and praying and praying for justice all over the world. ## **FAITH AND FRUSTRATION IN THE FACE OF ABUSE** Anne: It feels like we pray and pray and pray and that our prayers aren’t answered. Kathleen: It’s kind of like any relationship. There are times I feel like God is right by my side and that’s what gets me through the day. Then there are times that I’m asking, “Lord, where are you? I don’t feel you.” So, it’s hard, I always have faith in our Lord, I know He is there, but to feel Him just makes it so much more doable to get through the situation. Kathleen: It’s tough, I couldn’t do it without my faith, I couldn’t do it without God, and I am grateful for that, but it’s hard, and I too pray for truth, I’m like, Lord, I need truth to come out soon. I need it soon. So, hasn’t been answered yet, but I know that God is always working in mysterious ways. I’m just living in hope that it will come out at some point. Anne: Yeah, I had a discussion with God the other day. He was like, I answer so many of your prayers. You just don’t notice because you’re focused on these other ones, you know, kind of like that. And I was thinking, but I don’t care about those other ones. These are the ones I want you to answer. Answer them now. Why are you not answering them? I’m so mad at you. ## **HOPES FOR DIVINE INTERVENTION** Anne: It is frustrating to feel like he helped me with this and he helped me with that, but why can’t he help me so I don’t have to have any more contact with my abuser, which is a really big thing. Kathleen: Right, That’s one of my prayers as well. I find it going to, like, sinful thoughts sometimes, which I try not to do. Anne: Like him getting hit by a bus? Kathleen: Totally, it is an accurate answer, it also, to me would be protection for my children because they are abused as well. Anne: Exactly, yeah, I wonder about all those Old Testament stories of the wicked being smitten. I don’t know, but I know that the best we can do, if we’re women of faith, is to be obedient. Obedient to the commandments and do the best we can under a very difficult situation. Kathleen: Right, and hopefully in God’s time, it will all come out. Anne: If you could go back in time and share with your younger self what would you tell her? Kathleen: I guess to go with your gut feeling. If you are doubting anything about what a cheating husband says, don’t second guess it. Look into it a bit more, be sure of who you marry and spend the rest of your life with. ## **EDUCATING FUTURE GENERATIONS** **Anne:** It’s interesting though, if you don’t know what you’re looking for, you could spend time with them and not see it. We all spent years with our abuser and we didn’t recognize we were being abused. That’s why it’s important to me that women know that you’ll experience if your cheating husband says it’s your fault. Kathleen: Right. And that is what happened. And I had some odd dreams that happened and I pretty much ignored them. Which I wish I didn’t do. Anne: Yeah, when you have no context for it, it’s difficult to see. Anne: That’s one of the goals of our [daily online support group for betrayal trauma](/group/) is to educate women all over the world about abuse, about what it looks like so that we can educate our children, so if they have a dream, they have context for what they’re experiencing. Kathleen: Right. Yeah, hopefully it’ll be easier for my children down the road. Anne: Kathleen, thank you so much for being brave and sharing your story. Kathleen: Anne, thank you for the opportunity to share my story. It’s, definitely helpful to know there are other women out there that understand, and I’m not alone in this. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Emotional Battering: The Invisible Abuse No One Can See](https://www.btr.org/emotional-battering/) **Published:** June 2, 2026 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** When emotional abuse hides behind charm and kindness, women often suffer in silence while everyone else sees a “good husband.” **Content:** When emotional battering is covert, each moment looks harmless on its own. A comment, joke, or a nice” surprise might seem harmless. But when you step back and look at the pattern, a very different story emerges, one where boundaries are crossed, and her reactions are used as evidence against her. ## SEVEN SIGNS OF EMOTIONAL BATTERING **Here are seven signs of emotional battering that often go unnoticed**, especially when the husband looks like a great guy to everyone else. 1. **Her reactions don’t match his gestures.** He is doing something that seems nice, but she seems genuinely distressed. It usually means she senses something that other people can’t. 2. **If she seems on edge around his kindness.** She flinches at affection or looks uneasy when he is charming, it’s usually because she knows that kindness is hiding something that isn’t so kind. 3. **If she watches him carefully, she’s probably gauging risk.** Hyperawareness is an emotional survival skill. So if she’s being emotionally battered, it’s totally normal that she’s gonna be on high alert for emotional manipulation. 4. **Feeling relief when you are away from him is a powerful indicator that something’s really wrong in your marriage.** 5. **She apologizes for things that don’t require an apology.** If she’s apologizing for just stating her opinion, or talking about how she feels, it’s highly likely that she’s experiencing emotional battering. 6. **She adjusts herself to constantly keep the peace**. His lies that she’s doing something wrong are part of the emotional battering. 7. **Her friends notice that she’s not quite herself around him.** A woman who’s trying to make herself smaller is not loved in marriage. If she seems quieter or less alive in his presence, that’s a sign that her husband is emotionally battering her. To learn if you are a victim of emotional battering, take this [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ![Emotional Battering](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Emotional-Battering.webp "Emotional Battering")## WHAT IS EMOTIONAL BATTERING? Emotional battering is a consistent pattern of words, actions, or behaviors intended to manipulate, or control a person. Unlike physical abuse, emotional battering is more subtle and insidious, making it difficult to identify and even harder to explain to others. Worse, an abuser may manipulate others, so you experience emotional battering from people in your church congregation or even neighbors. If you’re experiencing emotional battering from by-standers regarding your husband’s behavior, you need support. Attend a [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY.](https://www.btr.org/group/) ![Identifying Emotional Battering](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Identifying-Emotional-Battering.webp "Identifying Emotional Battering")## COMMON EMOTIONAL BATTERING TACTICS Being married and experiencing emotional battering by your husband means navigating daily complexities that are draining and painful. Some common tactics include: - **Gaslighting**: Making you question your memory, reality, or perceptions. For example, he may say, “I never said that,” even when you vividly remember he did. - **Constant Criticism**: Regularly pointing out flaws, whether it’s your cooking, appearance, or parenting, to damage your confidence. - **Blame Shifting**: Over time, you may find yourself thinking, *[my husband says I’m the problem](https://www.btr.org/my-husband-says-im-the-problem/)*, because he consistently redirects accountability onto you instead of addressing his own actions. - **Stonewalling or Silent Treatment**: Refusing to engage in meaningful conversations, leaving you feeling invalidated and powerless. - **Public Embarrassment**: Mocking or undermining you in front of friends or family to isolate you and damage your self-esteem. - **Emotional Withholding**: Withholding affection, love, or support to punish or control you. ![What Does Emotional Battering Look Like](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-Does-Emotional-Battering-Look-Like.webp "What Does Emotional Battering Look Like")## TRANSCRIPT: EMOTIONAL BATTERING – THE INVISIBLE ABUSE NO ONE CAN SEE **Anne:** I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Kiki. Welcome, Kiki. **Kiki:** Thank you very much. I’m excited to be here. First of all, I wanna thank BTR, because when I was in the middle of a complete breakdown, not understanding what was happening to me, it was only through finding your organization and the help of your team that made me realize that I wasn’t safe. The abuse was so covert that most people couldn’t have recognized it, myself included. I had therapists that didn’t recognize it as emotional battering. And that started a journey into figuring out exactly what had happened to me. And what had happened to my friend. I came home from work one night, and there were police vehicles all over the place. We were told she had shot herself in her husband’s car. And she would tell us a lot of times these stories, and we would look at her like. She’s crazy or she’s making things up because her husband was such a great guy. As I started going through my own stories and learning things after her death, but I was thinking about it the other day, like, you look at the Middy trial or you look at women who come in and they’re battered. And they still have a hard time being believed. And then you take somebody who has been covertly abused or live in a society where, if your wife isn’t pretty enough or what have you, then she’s replaceable and it’s okay. ## PEOPLE HAVE A HARD TIME BELIEVING THERE IS EMOTIONAL BATTERING **Kiki:** People have a hard time believing there was abuse involved, but I left a 35 year marriage with severe CPTSD. I had a psychotic break, and I had to put myself back together. And during all of it, my ex-husband is the hero. My kids aren’t talking to me because I had some big breakdowns and did some things I’m not proud of. And that was like my friend’s story, she would have these breakdowns. You could be just as abused with a fist as you can with a piece of birthday cake. And I know that sounds silly. But it’s so covert, that people can’t see it as emotional battering. And BTR and the women and the professionals that came on here really gave me that push to step into it. **Anne:** Talk to me about the things your friend did that were totally normal under the circumstances. Like now that you know what you were looking at. So that we can let women who are listening know they’re not alone. If they’ve done something like this, it’s because they were trying to protect themselves. It’s completely and totally normal, and even healthy, when you’re in the situation to try to get to safety in any way that you can. **Kiki:** Oh, absolutely. There are several things that come up right away. The first one was we always had holiday parties at their house. They had a beautiful pool and her husband said something that seemed very innocuous and she started yelling. You promised me you wouldn’t say that you wouldn’t do this. ## ABUSE BY THROWING A SURPRISE PARTY **Kiki:** And she kind of goes off the rails a little bit, and we’re all sitting there looking at her like, what is going on right now? And so I immediately go into my people pleasing it’s okay to… and she’s yelling at me, “No, you don’t understand. You don’t understand what he does. I told him not to do this. He told me he wouldn’t do it. To you it seems innocent, but it’s not innocent.” And everybody’s looking at her. I get her away, and then I get her calmed down. And I go back and her husband is playing the victim. “Oh, poor me, you see, she’s bipolar. She always does this. This is what I have to live with.” And I feel so bad, because at the time, I didn’t realize I was going through it myself. You don’t realize it until after you’re out of it. Another thing, he was just very manipulative. For her 40th birthday, he threw her this amazing party, and everybody was in awe and completely jealous. And she was not happy about it. She told me afterwards, “I told him, I don’t like things like this. And it was just too much. It was way over the top.” And of course, I’m looking at her like I would give my left arm if my husband would throw me a party like this. Of course, he wouldn’t, because he knew I wanted one. Yeah, so there’s the difference. If you want it, you don’t get it. If you don’t want it, you get it. Then every year after that, he would throw her a surprise party and he would go out of his way to get people there, and she would walk in the room. ## MAKING HER LOOK UNGRATEFUL, UNKIND AND UNCARING **Kiki:** And we would all yell, surprise, and she would be devastated. then she’d try to put a smile on her face, and she was dying inside. Because how do you walk into the public where your husband has done this beautiful thing for you, but it’s exactly what you’ve asked him not to do? By year seven, she just kind of walked in, and then just went off in the corner and drank too much. She didn’t want a dog, but her son wanted a dog. So on her birthday, he bought her a designer dog and invited several friends to see her get the dog. Now she loved the dog with all her heart, but it was that manipulation tactic to say. Look at what a great husband I am. Here’s this $1,500 dog and you don’t get to complain about it. **Anne:** Correct me if I’m wrong. But he had effectively made her look ungrateful, unkind, uncaring. Which is exactly what he wanted. **Kiki:** Exactly. He was a very charming, gracious host, and the door was always open. I lived next door to them. And she could be reactive at times. And I would hear him talking to his son on the side of the house, and he would be saying. Just be quiet. I’ll help you out. You know how your mother is, you know how your mother gets, so he’s completely not supporting her. The biggest thing: the woman who he had a long-term affair with, they ended up getting married and they had a destination wedding. **Anne:** Did you know about the affair before she died ? **Kiki:** I did know about it and she knew about it. She was always concerned about it because her husband had told her it was over. ## ALWAYS PITTING EVERYBODY AGAINST ONE ANOTHER **Kiki:** But she would get these, Facebook or emails from an email she had never heard of before or a fake name, nobody she knew. That would say, your husband doesn’t love you. At one point, her husband even admitted it was from this woman, and of course, “I love you. I love only you. This woman’s crazy.” So he always pitted everybody against one another, that they’re crazy. Well, he ends up marrying this woman in a destination wedding. On the 10th anniversary of her death, his new wife, who he had an affair with the whole time. Puts up a post on Facebook that says, “I’ve been keeping a secret. We actually got secretly married on the day before the anniversary of her death” And nobody says a word. There’s whispers behind the scenes, but there’s the, Jesus wants us to forgive and forget. And I’m like, no. And that’s when I said, “Uh uh, you know what? I’m not gonna keep quiet.” And you know what? I believe it was soul murder, because that’s [how abusers manipulate their victims](/abusers-manipulate-their-victims/), especially the covert type. It’s so insidious. It just eats away at your soul, and you completely lose yourself. **Anne:** That is so strange. Who in their right mind, if they’re a decent person, wants to publicly say that? Having your new wife tell the whole world that they secretly got married the day before the anniversary of when mom committed suicide. Like, that’s not hurting anyone? What? That’s like next level. How did people react to that post? Were they like, it feels like it would be like radio silence, okay, cray cray town. Or were they like, “Oh, congratulations, I’m so glad you did that secretly because she was so crazy.” What was the reaction? ## REACTIONS TO AN ABUSIVE POST **Kiki:** Mostly my friends and people who didn’t know her spoke out. It was almost crickets from friends and family, publicly. Several of them reached out behind the scenes or had somebody reach out on their behalf. People seemed afraid to say anything. That’s what they do is gather their minions. I’ve heard he’s sending out paragraphs of these long texts, playing the victim and putting his son in the role of, here’s Kiki hurting my son. He’s retired from the police force, but is now serving as a bailiff. And that’s, one of the things he’s very concerned about is what if I lose my job or what if I lose face, because nothing triggers a covert abuser than being cornered. **Anne:** It’s really, I would say, shocking that that’s what abusive messages sound like. Because they sound so nice and they sound like he’s the victim, really. It’s awful to think that society in general is so blind and in the dark about what these messages look and sound like. They all look the same. Once you know what you’re looking at, you know how to see it. And my workshop covers that. I took the real life messages from five different, emotionally abusive men and use those and then how to respond to them. And most of them are just not overt. They really sound like nice guys, but when you know what you’re looking for, you’re able to see these are clearly abusive. **Kiki:** Yeah, it’s really hard , these are people that we had great times with. You don’t understand that they’re being horrible and they’ve got this whole other life. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## INVESTIGATORS TALK TO ME **Kiki:** One thing I will say is, the investigator who called me, actually two investigators called me and the one was really good. We talked about coercive abuse. He says, ” A lot of times people think coercive abuse is they lock you in the house or they take away your money. But it’s not always that way.” He says, “I understand what you’re saying.” He said, “Unfortunately, we’re not at the point in our world where it’s really illegal to be a jerk.” But I did send all his text messages to this investigator and said, “Hey, just in case anything happens, I want you to see this.” I don’t think she was terrified of him at all, nor was I of my husband. As a matter of fact, about a month before she passed away, she was with another friend and wanted to hire a private investigator. The friend was going to help her, and then a day or two later she wrote and she said, no, don’t do it. Because even if I find out he’s cheating again, I love my husband and I am not going to leave him. I think she was just so convinced that she was lucky to have this guy . She didn’t understand the covert abuse. I have become this huge investigator on patterns, looking at patterns and trying to figure it all out. Because it is so sneaky and so covert, and it goes over so long. I thought I had the perfect marriage. I didn’t understand until I was out of it. How much of myself I had lost and how some of these things that I had completely normalized, my ex-husband had me convinced that all men think this way and all men do these things. ## YOU DON’T KNOW ALL OF THE ABUSE YOU’RE EXPERIENCING **Kiki:** I got married when I was 21 years old. I had never even heard of pornography until I got married. Then we were in the military, and went to the Philippines, where sex was everywhere, so was infidelity. So anytime a husband had an affair, it was the wife’s fault. Because she wasn’t doing what she was supposed to be doing. And even within our group, there were affairs within different couples. The thing was, you don’t take sides. They’re always invited, and whoever shows up, shows up. Of course, it was always the two people having the affair that showed up. And the spouse that was actually wronged didn’t. It always bothered me. I always felt horrible, but I thought, that’s the way the world is. And it’s really sad when you don’t know what you don’t know until it’s too late. **Anne:** Isn’t it too late the whole time? You don’t know all of the emotional and psychological abuse you’re experiencing the entire time. **Kiki:** No, you don’t. Until you’re out of it, you’ve lost your mind. You’re blaming yourself for everything. People are dropping out of your life. My ex-husband was married within 30 days to a woman. He’s 70 now, I think she might be 29 or 30. He is the great guy and look, I finally got away from that crazy person. And I’m sitting here in shock as to how I’m the bad person. But that’s because the people we were around, society as a whole, a lot of the times think, time to get a new one. My ex used to do things very covertly. He knew I was always very concerned about my weight. ## COVERTLY UNDERMINING SELF-ESTEEM **Kiki:** Of course, he made me concerned about my weight. He would come home and say, I brought us cake for dessert, and tonight when we’re watching TV, we could eat cake for dessert. And I’d be like, okay. It was always the kind of cake, almost 99% of the time, he liked. Not the cake I liked. And we would split the piece of cake. Well, while I was eating my cake, we would be watching TV and there would be some beautiful actress on there, and he’d say something like, “Oh what did she allow to happen to herself? She just turned into such a fat pig.” Like he would say that. And here’s me sitting here. **Anne:** Wow. **Kiki:** So used to people talking that way, that I look and it’s this beautiful woman. I say, “Are you crazy? She’s gorgeous, she’s beautiful.” And he’d say, “Well, honey, don’t get jealous or upset. I mean, she’s not 55 years old and she hasn’t had two kids.” So suddenly that cake is just sitting there in your throat, like this lump of cement. That’s how badly I had been groomed. He would say these horrible things and say, all men think that way. That’s how a lot of people thought in the circle we were with. He told me one time. You know how they always tell on themselves? He says, “I’m not really mad at you. I kind of respect you for finally standing up for yourself.” And I just went, oh my, he knew. It’s a game. **Anne:** It’s a game of exploitation. How much can I exploit her, how much can I get from her? How can I use her without having to give very much? They know they have to give a little bit. ## CALCULATING TO EXPLOIT **Anne:** But like, what is the least amount I can give for the most amount I can get? And they’re not caring about us. They are using us. Their motions, as if they care, are calculated to exploit us. They’re like, what’s the biggest bang I can get for this? It’s a completely different vibe that we feel from people when they actually care about us, when they’re not transactional in the way that they interact with us. All of this I talk about in detail in my [Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) , like exactly why this happens and what to look for, to know if they are transactional in their relationships. That means every time he says, I care about you, he’s calculated that in order to get something out of you, he’s not actually caring about you. That’s what makes couple therapy so impossible or going to clergy so impossible, or friends. Because he’ll never actually say the truth of how he feels and what his intentions are. **Kiki:** Oh yeah. I grew up where love was transactional. I know it’s not my fault, but if I want a healthy relationship, then I have to understand that. **Anne:** The plane wreck’s not your fault. It’s not your fault that the plane didn’t have supplies on it. It’s not your fault that the plane didn’t have a satellite phone. You are gonna need to stand up and start walking toward the nearest city, and I think that’s what you’re talking about. It is where you’re like, okay, the plane wreck is not my fault. None of this is my fault. However, if I don’t stand up and start moving forward, I’m not gonna survive this. **Kiki:** Exactly. ## HOW THEY ACT IS NOT WHAT THEY SAY **Anne:** That survival starts with recognizing what these liars do and what they say. If we had to boil it down—though it’s almost impossible—it’s this: if you only observed what they did with your eyes and not your ears, what would you see? Most of the time, you would see that how they act doesn’t match what they say. And that’s when women start asking an important question: *[is lying emotionally abusive?](/is-lying-emotional-abuse/)* Because when someone’s words and actions never line up, that pattern alone begins to erode your sense of reality. **Kiki:** Oh, I often say that if my ex-husband’s lips were moving, there was a lie coming out. Even though he presented as the most wonderful, generous person you ever met in your life. He controlled with size. He controlled with victimhood, the poor me. As a matter of fact, most people would tell you in my family that I wore the pants of the family. But the reality was, it was just an illusion. I was controlled from the time I woke up through the time I went to bed. I call it death through thousand paper cuts just all day long. “Did ‘you have to put the ketchup in here like this? Why did you put the dish in here like this? Most women would be thrilled that they have a husband that wants to watch TV with them. Why can’t you come sit down and watch TV?” I’d be like, oh yeah, you’re right. And I’d go running and never understand what was really going on. I think that happens in a lot of marriages, and it still didn’t all add up for me. I had to learn patterns, because to me, coercive meant it was mean, but it’s not always. ## SETTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT ON EMOTIONAL BATTERING **Anne:** You mentioned they can hurt you just as much with a piece of cake as they can with a fist. The most abusive thing someone can do is tell you they love you when it’s not true. They’re using you. They love what they can get from you, but actually caring about you, not so much. Thank you so much. Kiki, you’re incredible for wanting to set the record straight about who your friend was and why she was acting the way that she was. She was doing what any healthy woman would do, not understanding her situation, and trying to create some emotional safety for herself. In the best way that she knew how and she didn’t know what was happening and she didn’t know what to do about it. And that’s not her fault. That’s society’s fault. Every therapist they went to is at fault. If they went to therapy or clergy or whoever, who did not educate her about what was actually happening. Because women in this situation, they do the right thing. They try to get help. They try to get information, they try to listen to their husband and communicate with him more. Whatever it is they’re trying to do, they have good intentions. It’s really unfortunate that bystanders, professionals, people outside, they attribute good intentions to someone. Meaning an abusive man who doesn’t have them. He actually has bad intentions. So, that’s awesome that you’re honoring your friend in this way. I bet she’s looking on you and thanking you for that. ## WANTING PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND **Kiki:** I hope so. Yeah, I wanted people to understand who she really was and why she was the way she was sometimes, and even for her son to maybe understand who his mother really was and what was happening. Because I think that’s the biggest travesty. I’m being blamed for hurting the son, but the son is still caught in these dynamics within a system that protects the perpetrator. The truth may hurt, but lies will kill you. **Anne:** Yeah, oh, that is so true. **Kiki:** Thank you so much for giving me the opportunity. You’re amazing. BTR is amazing and thank you. **Anne:** Thank you. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Emotional Abuse Checklist: What You Need to Know for Sure](https://www.btr.org/emotional-abuse-checklist/) **Published:** June 9, 2026 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Emotional abuse is invisible, he may never yell, scream or say "mean" things. This is why it's hard to see. **Content:** If you’re searching for an emotional abuse checklist, you’re looking for clarity. I’m an emotional abuse expert. My team has helped over 8,000 clients identify emotional abuse and thrive. And I’ve noticed that most victims of emotional abuse in marriage have been told, “You’re too sensitive,” or “You expect too much.” You’ve probably wondered, *Is it me?* Emotional abuse is often subtle. It hides in half-truths and conversations that never quite resolve. This emotional abuse checklist will give you a clear picture of the patterns. Because emotional abuse isn’t just isolated incidents. To learn more, take my free [emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ## WHAT IS EMOTIONAL ABUSE? Emotional abuse is a pattern of behavior used to control, confuse, belittle, intimidate, or dominate another person. But it likely won’t feel that way. It’s usually not obvious yelling or cruelty. Many emotionally abusive men seem like really nice guys. That’s why having an emotional abuse checklist matters. ## EMOTIONAL ABUSE CHECKLIST Use this checklist to look for patterns. One isolated moment does not mean someone is emotionally abusive. Repeated patterns do. ## 1. CHRONIC LYING Your husband lies about serious matters, such as: - His whereabouts - How he uses his time - Money or financial decisions - Porn use or masturbation - Emotional or sexual affairs - The real reasons for his actions When confronted, he minimizes, deflects, or becomes angry. ## 2. WITHHOLDING INFORMATION He: - Rarely shares his thoughts or feelings - Says, “You wouldn’t be interested” - Gives vague or incomplete answers - Plays dumb when asked direct questions - Refuses to provide financial transparency - Withholds access to accounts or income details - Walks out when discussions get serious Withholding is a way of controlling your perceptions. ## 3. DISCOUNTING YOUR THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS He says things like: - “You’re too sensitive.” - “You’re jumping to conclusions.” - “You blow everything out of proportion.” - “You always have something to complain about.” - “Why do you always twist everything around.” - “You’re looking for a fight.” He says your valid concerns are unreasonable. ## 4. MOOD CONTROL He: - Makes the house tense with his moods - Refuses to acknowledge obvious problems - Pretends everything is fine when it clearly isn’t Everyone adjusts to him. ## 5. DISPARAGES YOU, BUT DISGUISES IT AS A “JOKE” He says: - “You’re my ball and chain.” - “You would get it if you were smarter.” - “What else can you expect from a woman?” - “Your blond is showing.” When you object, he responds: - “You don’t have a sense of humor.” - “You can’t take a joke.” Humiliation disguised as humor is still humiliation. ## 6. BLOCKING CONVERSATION He: - Pretends not to hear you - Looks at his phone while you talk - Storms out mid-conversation - Says, “The discussion is ended.” - Rolls his eyes while saying, “Quit yakking.” - Says “Who asked for your opinion?” Stonewalling is a control tactic. ## 7. FINANCIAL SECRETS When you ask about money, he says: - “You have plenty.” - “I’m not going through receipts.” - “It’s too complicated for you.” - “All you married me for is my money.” - “Do I have to account for every penny?” He shifts accountability back onto you. ## 8. FALSE ACCUSATIONS When you raise concerns, he says: - “You don’t respect me.” - “You don’t love me.” - “You’ve never supported me.” - “If you won’t have sex with me, who are you having it with?” He accuses you of things that aren’t true. ## 9. BLAME SHIFTING He says: - “When you pester me, of course I get mad.” - “I wouldn’t look at porn if you met my needs.” - “I was going to do it, but not if you keep bugging me.” He blames his bad behavior on you. ## 10. CHARACTER ATTACKS Instead of addressing issues, he says: - “The trouble with you is…” - “You’re stupid.” - “Really? It’s like you’re never satisfied.” - “You’re a bad mom.” - “You don’t care about anyone.” He attacks your identity. ## 11. TRIVIALIZING ACCOMPLISHMENTS He minimizes your efforts: - Makes sarcastic comments about your projects - Dismisses your work as insignificant - Claims shared ownership of what you built alone You feel small instead of supported. ## 12. UNDERMINING THE FAMILY He: - Prioritizes his wants over family needs - Disappears for hours or days - Leaves you to manage all responsibilities - Makes decisions without considering impact The family orbits around his desires. ## 13. “FORGETTING” OR DENYING REALITY He says: - “I never said that.” - “You’re making that up.” - “We never had that conversation.” - “You’re upset about nothing.” This is gaslighting. Over time, you question your memory. ## 14. ORDERING AND DEMANDING He says: - “Get rid of this.” - “You’re not wearing that.” - “Shut that off.” He commands rather than collaborates. ## 15. SUBTLE THREATS He says: - “If you act like that, I’m going to…” - “When you do that, it makes me very angry.” - “If you won’t meet my needs, I get depressed.” Threats do not have to be overt to be effective. ## 16. ANGER AS CONTROL He: - Yells - Glares - Punches walls - Throws objects - Gets inches from your face Unpredictable anger creates fear. ## EMOTIONAL ABUSE CHECKLISTS DON’T ALWAYS INCLUDE THE SUBTLE SIGNS Many people imagine abuse as screaming and violence. But emotional abuse is often quiet. Controlled. Strategic. It can look like kindness or even indifference. It can look like charm in public and cruelty in private. That invisibility is what makes an emotional abuse checklist so important. Emotional abusers often: - Groom their partners with affection and charm - Alternate between warmth and coldness - Appear generous to others - Build a public image of “good guy” The contrast creates cognitive dissonance. You may trust him more than you trust yourself. Healing begins when you rebuild trust in your own perception. ## WHAT TO DO IF THIS EMOTIONAL ABUSE CHECKLIST FEELS FAMILIAR? The confusion, grief, and destabilization of emotional abuse can feel overwhelming. No woman should process it alone. [Betrayal Trauma Recovery offers daily Group Sessions](/group/) in multiple time zones where women can: - Share experiences safely - Learn practical emotional safety strategies - Rebuild trust in themselves - Gain clarity without pressure You can also get more education about emotional abuse. Listen to [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast](/podcast/) ## TRANSCRIPT: EMOTIONAL ABUSE CHECKLIST: HOW TO KNOW FOR SURE **Anne:** We have a member of our community sharing her story today. We’re going to call her Macie. I’m so thankful to all of you who have shared your story. It takes a lot of courage, and it humbles me to hear your stories and I appreciate you. Macie is a single mom. And let’s start with your story. Did you recognize your husband’s abusive behaviors at first? **Macie:** I did not. I actually did not recognize or was even made aware. I just thought our marriage was normal, happy, healthy, that he was such a great guy. And one of the most selfless people I had ever met. And that was pretty difficult when I started to understand what my marriage really was. He had texted that he wanted a divorce. And not knowing the magnitude of his betrayal and all those choices that he was making. Just the stonewalling, the communication dysfunction, the emotional abuse is so hard. But in my mind, that was not even possible. And because of the type of abuse. It was the withdrawal and not communicate, control that way. Versus the yelling or control by physical demeaning. It was never like that ever. So the emotional abuse is so hard to see until I actually had the truth of the whole story. To see, oh, now I can tell where the manipulation and the blame shifting and all that was taking place. **Anne:** This type of abuse, it’s not overt. Not like screaming and yelling in your face. And people don’t have the education to see it, and many therapists don’t. You’re in this relationship and you don’t know what’s going on, but you know something’s wrong. ## WHY EMOTIONAL ABUSE IS SO CONFUSING **Anne:** During that time, what types of things did you do to try to establish safety and peace in your home before you found out about the pornography use and infidelity? **Macie:** Again, we had what I thought was a healthy, happy marriage. I feel like a lot of it was, a lot of communication with the children. We both were on the same page about talking to them about pornography. We agreed we wanted to talk to them about it, just like we did drugs or alcohol or anything else. And we both come from families where we have a predisposition for addiction. And so we would explain to them, it didn’t matter what. It could be something. We don’t know what it is, so we need to abstain from many things, including pornography. So I feel like we would check in as a family a lot. We had a really open communication about sex, about social media. We had our kids sign contracts, phones were away. I feel like there was a lot of communication within the home surrounding specifically pornography. Which I feel like is ironic, now I know the truth of what he did. I do feel like that even on a spiritual level, we pray as a family, go to church, that aspect too of having the spirit with you. So those were some of the things we did. The emotional abuse is so hard now, understanding that he viewed pornography and violated my home. ## WHICH OF THE FOLLOWING IS TRUE ABOUT EMOTIONAL ABUSE? **Anne:** Mm hmm. You’re talking about explicit media, you’re talking about healthy sexuality, thinking he is on the same page with you. And really, it was all just a facade. Emotional abuse is so hard. Did you have any sense then, like deep down, that something was wrong? Or did everything seem fine to you? I mean so many women are wondering, “Which of the following is true about emotional abuse​?” **Macie:** A year into our marriage, granted we got married in the 90s when the internet was really early. So I found pornography, and at that point I felt super hurt, betrayed and cheated on. But I feel like I never saw or knew of any pornography use from him until the actual discovery of his work phone. But I would have kind of this underlying insecurity. Because there was a lot of lying going on. And I never could pinpoint the purpose. And I learned that a part of the abuse blamed me for his lies. Because my reaction would be so much that I would maybe get too angry. So he was justified in lying to me. And it just didn’t make sense. Some of the things he would lie to me about. And I do feel like there was a lack of empathy and emotional disconnect, especially in our communication. I now see that there was a lot of withdrawal, and it took withdraw, withdraw, and then I’d finally corner him to communicate. Even if it was just me feeling overwhelmed or stressed or that I needed extra help. And it ended up an explosion, and then that’s where it led towards the end to the stonewalling. ## EMOTIONAL ABUSE IS SO HARD: FINANCIAL CONTROL & LIES **Macie:** I had to literally text him in the home to say, hey, can you meet with me so that we can talk? And I didn’t want to overwhelm him with a conversation too long, so extremely unhealthy. There were also situations with money that didn’t make sense. But he was in charge of the finances. And when I tried to get involved, he didn’t want me to. But then it was a problem that I wasn’t involved. So again, I see that he had control over that money, and he could do a lot of the things he did. Because I was not aware yet. He blamed me for not knowing what was going on. I read some emotional abuse quotes, but they were usually about yelling or saying “You’re stupid” so they didn’t seem to apply to me. ​And several gaps in time, he traveled a lot. He missed many flights. Or they bumped him. And again, it was him saying, hey, I’m getting bumped. So we can have a flight that we can use later for us. But really, he used it for other purposes, and disregard for me. I did not feel like a priority, and I had an injury experience. I think that was the first time I realized how unempathetic he was to me. He just looked at me like I’m leaving town and had a broken ankle. He’s like, I’m out of here for the week and good luck. And I just cried thinking how can this be possible? Emotional abuse is so hard. But I still didn’t want to [leave my emotionally abusive husband](/leave-my-emotionally-abusive-husband/). ## UNDERSTANDING EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Macie:** I have these busy children, and what is going on? I felt like he had changed, but I could never pinpoint it. I feel like if I tried to ask questions, it was always I’m this simple person. It’s you, and so I just knew I had to work hard on me all the time. Because everything was falling apart because of me. He was simple and didn’t require a lot, and he wasn’t mean and angry at me. And he just laid low and kept the peace. He wanted me to tell him what to do, then he couldn’t mess up and I wouldn’t get upset. I did not like that dynamic in our marriage either. Because I felt like this dominant person, but I want to be a team though. I want to work together. Well again, with the withdrawal and communication. When I tried to muster up the courage to talk to him, it would end with me feeling like I don’t value him. And how hard he works, and all the things he does around the house. And I just need to be content with how things are. I now see how sad I was not even allowed, or feel like I could even cry in our relationship. Like to him that it was that emotionally disconnected for me. I gave him all I was: my good, my bad, my stress, my anxiety, wanting to work with him together as a union. Then to see that, not only that, but also to see that he used my strengths against me to do what he wanted to do. Each episode of emotional abuse is so hard to see. When I understood the truth of the emotional abuse and saw that was what he was doing. ## EMOTIONAL ABUSE QUOTES DIDN’T HELP **Anne:** Many people don’t understand that stonewalling and not talking about things are forms of controlling the conversation. And people will think, well, he just can’t talk about his emotions, or now’s not the right time. Those type of abusive behaviors are controlling. They’re controlling the conversation, they’re controlling the way you can communicate. And that makes it very difficult, emotional abuse is so hard. You can’t be on the same team when one person’s goal is to shut things down, and make sure she doesn’t find out about things. He’s gaslighting you, and so you’re thinking, well, the problem is me, so I need to love, serve and forgive more. When did you realize that this isn’t working? Did you ever get a sense before he filed for divorce? That, man, I am loving, serving, forgiving, and things just aren’t getting that much better. **Macie:** I wasn’t googling, “What are the 7 signs of emotional abuse?” Or looking for an emotional abuse checklist because I didn’t even think of that. ​I would go to him with a pad of paper and have him give me a list of things that I would need to work on. And I was just trying to love him more and value him more at work, and never ask questions when he traveled. I do feel like he used those things again. I’m going through therapy working on me, and instead it helped him do what he wanted better. ## DISCOVERING HIS LIES WAS JUST ONE EMOTIONAL ABUSE EXAMPLE I mean, he lived two lives. So it made it easier to be like, well, okay, now I’m a good husband and a great dad. And so she’s happy, Which means she’s not going to question any of this other behavior. So it wasn’t until actual discovery that I realized his layer of lies was actually to get what he wanted. And that was really disturbing for me. Emotional abuse is so hard. Especially when you look at 21 years, you know? **Anne:** So you’ve got this marriage where something’s not quite right, you’re working harder, you’re trying. Tell me how you found the work phone. Talk about what led up to that, that day. **Macie:** I think that was one of the things you talk about little red flags, things going off. I did feel like he was being unfaithful. I felt like pornography was involved, but simultaneously I trusted him. He was a spiritual person. So to me whenever I had those feelings, I thought I must be the worst person for even assuming or thinking any of these thoughts. And as I worked, I believed he was also working on our marriage together. Because he didn’t want to go to couples therapy. We’re both individually working on ourselves. And one of the things was to make a date night together or spend more time together, but there were still some inconsistencies there. And I felt like I was definitely pulling more of the weight. Unfortunately, on Christmas morning at two in the morning, I happened to just roll over. And saw his phone, and I could see the truth of a conversation he had with a girl he had been on the phone with through the night. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## DISCOVERING THE BETRAYAL WAS EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Macie:** And again, the betrayal of understanding the truth, I thought Christmas Eve was dedicated to the family and us. The truth is he was communicating with this person. He had been with her the week previous. He was planning to be with her after. But additionally, it wasn’t just her. When I went out of that conversation, just to see the magnitude of all that was on his phone was unbelievable and overwhelming. Emotional abuse is so hard. I could not even believe he was capable of that, this was the same person? It was unfortunate, because of Christmas morning. I mean, that’s a day you celebrate every year, and you have so many memories attached. So I had to keep it together. I chose not to say anything. I wanted my children to experience Christmas morning as the best it could be. Because I was super emotional, which again, as I talked about in our relationship, in our marriage, we had to be okay. So my kids didn’t see me cry ever. And so when mom’s emotional and crying, they’re like, what is going on? But Christmas morning happened. ## MENTAL VS EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Macie:** We spent time with family. And it wasn’t until later that I actually confronted him. And everything exploded from there. My goal was to wait until the next day. But that just didn’t really happen. And so it is unfortunate for my children that I feel like a day that we celebrate, and you have memories that will never go away. It’s like, how was your Christmas? Because that was the question following the discovery that I would get asked by every person. And it’s like, do you want to know the truth about how my Christmas was? How was your Christmas? So it was just that constant trigger. **Anne:** It’s very traumatic for it to happen on holidays. It’s terrible. Emotional abuse is so hard. Hopefully, this Christmas can be the anniversary of your freedom. **Macie:** Yes, and I’ve talked with the kids. So how do we embrace? I do feel like the kids triggers are different than mine. And just because their life circumstances and memories are different, and also what they know. But I feel like we’ve talked openly about what we can do, and I am really happy for them that Christmas, even Christmas morning, was great. I think the difference changed in Christmas break for them. And that will be interesting to see how to deal with that. Because mom and dad never fought. And now dad’s arguing, and he’s this new person that we’ve never seen before with this anger. So it was a confusing time for them. And then he moved out, and again, they were confused. Like mom and dad don’t fight, and now dad’s moving out. ## MORE HELPFUL QUOTES ON EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Macie:** It was for them because the emotional abuse is so hard for them to process what was going on. **Anne:** And shocking, probably **Macie:** Shocking, absolutely shocking. **Anne:** You’re an amazing, smart, capable woman who is able to plan and make things happen, who graduated from college. Like, you’re no dummy. And same thing with me, and same thing with all the women who listen to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. We are capable, amazing, brave, strong women. Can you tell me your thoughts on that now that you know what you went through? **Macie:** Yeah, that’s a great point. I actually get asked a lot. Did you really not ever know? Like, you had no idea. And I am almost embarrassed to say I didn’t. And a lot of that was that I trusted so much in him. But I did not allow myself to trust in myself. Like, when I had my own doubts, I discounted it so easily because of my trust in him. I also think because of the type of abuse, he’s not this loud yelling person. Like I feel like emotional abuse is so hard to wrap your mind around the idea of abuse being the ability to not communicate. Like you said, his control was lack of communicating information to me. I didn’t ever know exactly what was going on. Sometimes even for work, I didn’t know exactly what he was doing. And I felt like those were his lay low, just kind of keep the peace, keep her happy enough. But made it really hard for me to say, well, no, I was not in an abusive situation. ## COMPOUNDING LIES & REALIZATION HE WAS AN EXAMPLE OF EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Macie:** He never came at me. He was supportive to me, and would even encourage me to do things. He never said a mean thing to me ever. How am I in an abusive situation? And. I think that’s when it goes back to the lies. I just see there were so many lies. And over time, and even when he would lie to me, and I would forgive him, then it would happen again. And I felt like it was this compound of lies that I was just trying to process. Like, why are you lying to me about this? If you’re lying to me about this, what else is there? **Anne:** You’re saying, he never said a mean thing to me. But he did, he told you it was your fault. He told you that something was wrong with you. That is cruel. But it doesn’t feel mean, because you think it’s your fault. So many women say that. Oh, he was nice. And I’m thinking, that’s the meanest thing you could do to someone, is tell them that they’ve got a problem when it’s your problem. **Macie:** I have told him that he did financially, physically, spiritually, emotionally, like all the betrayal choices he made that harm our family. The one that is the most hurtful are the times he saw me depressed. He saw me feel inadequate. And he saw me crying and I had come to him asking what it is, what’s wrong and what’s going on? He knew what he was doing, but allowed me to believe it was me. And that is so hurtful. It was like a dagger to the heart. ## MANIPULATION IS COVERT EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Macie:** And then to take my strengths. Like I’m a hard worker, I want to do hard things and fix things. I would help try to problem solve with him. He was so tired. So it’d be like what’s going on? Well now I know it’s because he was out all night long, he was never sleeping. But I’m thinking what’s going on? How can we problem solve? And he would just allow me to try to help fix things. And I was running on this treadmill that was spinning so fast. I see where had we gone to couple’s therapy, I would have sat there and been like, I’m doing all these things wrong and I need to work harder. It would not have been healthy. I know you’re familiar with DARVO. ![Emotional Abuse Checklist](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/emotional-abuse-checklist-1024x1024.webp "Emotional Abuse Checklist")**Anne:** Yeah, really quick with DARVO we have some amazing infographics that circulate around our social media on [Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/btr.org_) and [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/BetrayalTraumaRecovery). So if you’re not following us there, please do, because I love to interact with women on social media and hear your comments. So if you do follow us, please comment. Let me know what you think of those infographics and if they’re helpful to you. **Macie:** When I look at that, it makes more sense to me. Because I would approach him with something that didn’t make sense. And then he would attack me as if like, he couldn’t believe I would believe that. He would defend himself and no, no, no. And then I’d start to feel guilty that I was accusing him or curious or insecure about something. ## EMOTIONAL ABUSE IS SO HARD: NO VALIDATION, JUST BLAME **Macie:** Then it would turn around. He became the victim. And suddenly, I was the bad person, because I had come to him to communicate. The communication started with me and ended with me being the bad person. I’d walk away being like, how is this that I just went to him to see how I need help. That I am struggling? Yet I come away feeling like I’m an ungrateful wife. I don’t value him and recognize all the things he’s doing, so it would just come back to me. Then I’d say, okay, what can I do to make it so that he knows that I value and respect all these things, yet I didn’t feel safe. I didn’t trust him. I didn’t feel like I was a priority and was not validated. Instead, it was well, that’s your fault. That’s your fault that you feel that way. I’m a simple person. Like literally he would say to me so often, I am a simple person and I do not require a lot where you dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. **Anne:** You’re like, no, you actually require texting seven women, so no, you are very, very complex. **Macie:** Yes, I do not know how he was able to organize all that, honestly. **Anne:** So for you, what is one of the most difficult aspects looking back on your marriage now that you know the truth about the abuse? **Macie:** I know he knew the truth of what he did. I got to a point where I was so down and depressed that I actually had to go into a surgery. ## FEELING LIKE I NEEDED TO GO **Macie:** In my mind, I had made a deal with God that I just needed to be taken. My life to be done, because that was, to me, the easiest way to remove myself from the emotional abuse is so hard, and the situation of my kids having to deal with divorce. And that I was this problem. That if I could just remove myself, then everybody would be so much better off. And I left letters for my kids to read. In my mind, I was totally content with being done. And when I came out of surgery, I knew that I was going to fight, I was going to fight for my family, and I was going to do everything I could. And when I found out the truth that, while I was in surgery. He had taken money from our retirement and was putting it in a bank account for a woman he was financially supporting. That to me just blew my mind that I was ready to be done with my life. I was crying on my way up, he knew I was hurting, that I felt so bad about myself, yet he continued that behavior. And that was my low, low point in recognition. Wow, you put those two pieces together, and you see there was a major disconnect. It’s hard, because I know that there were so many lies in our marriage. Emotional abuse is so hard for me to believe anything was ever true. I believed it was good and there were some good times, but I now know that those good times were the buttering up so that he could keep me happy enough. Signing up for a girl’s trip for me, oh, what a great husband. And that’s so nice. ## GROOMING IS EMOTIONAL ABUSE TOO **Anne:** But the truth was it was grooming. It’s what it was. He was grooming you on purpose to throw you off his scent. **Macie:** Yeah, that is so hurtful. I got so duped in believing this person loved me, when I don’t believe there was love in this marriage. How did that happen? And how did I not know? So trying to make sense of how as a smart, capable, independent, person, I thought I had a healthy marriage. How did I miss so much? To not know that that wasn’t love that was happening in my marriage? I felt like I was loving and giving. But it was not reciprocated. And that is emotional abuse is so hard to understand. **Anne:** Yeah, but it was just for him like a cover. For you, you were his facade. **Macie:** It blows my mind that he is still the victim. **Anne:** Pornography is abusive. But then he had all these other abusive behaviors. The control of the conversation, you’ve got sexual coercion going on because he’s not telling you that he’s having sex with other people. You know, there’s so much going on there that is seriously sexually abusive, which is physical abuse. So technically, your husband physically, emotionally, sexually and psychologically abused, And people just can’t comprehend that level of abuse. **Macie:** Right, it’s mind blowing to believe, like you said, as the person I know I am. That I lived that, believing it was healthy. Like I looked at my parents and their relationship, so in my mind, I was aiming to try to do that. Even though I felt like in my communication to him. I didn’t feel like we were a team. ## EMOTIONAL ABUSE IS SO HARD: SPIRITUAL JOURNEY & REFLECTION **Macie:** I felt like I was more dominant, because I tried to get him to help or communicate with me. I felt like I was constantly chasing him to try to get him to communicate with me. **Anne:** He wanted you to do that. He liked that because you were taking the responsibility for the entire relationship in that case. **Macie:** I was already doing everything. **Anne:** So, during this time, you consider yourself a spiritual person. You’re having prayers with your husband, you’re attending church, you’re reading the scriptures. Then you find out that God has not expressly told you in so many words, you’re in an abusive relationship. You realize that for 21 years, you were not privy to the truth. How did that affect your relationship with God? **Macie:** Yeah, that’s a great question. For me, there were a lot of moments along the way. As I’ve reflected on the truth. Where I can see God’s hand to protect me and even prepare me in certain ways. I had an injury that happened that at the time. My husband traveled all the time. And I was devastated. My children were extremely busy. I felt helpless and felt like, why did this happen? This is so frustrating for me. Could I have not had some inspiration to not go? It was playing softball, and I slid into third and broke my ankles. Could I have not had something to not do that? But I now see looking back that that was in many ways, God’s way of making me stop In my tracks. ## GOD’S HAND IN PROTECTION & STRENGTH THROUGH ADVERSITY **Macie:** Because there were times when I felt red flags, but I never followed through with it. I just discounted it, but then I stopped and actually looked at my life. And started to see the truth of what it really was. I can’t deny that I felt God so present in my life. Not saying, hey, you’re in this abusive relationship. But I even lost my mom. She died of cancer when I was a teenager. And I feel like even that experience prepared me to have some different strength and perspective that I even taught my kids that helped prepare for this heartache. You know, and understanding, and so I can see where, even through the divorce, there were several things that came my way. And to come across Betrayal Trauma Recovery specifically. Because as you know, sometimes when you’re in it, sometimes a normal therapist, you’re just not getting the right information. So getting the right resources. And I feel like all those things were huge blessings. God blessing me and blessing my children and giving me strength as a mom. Just giving myself a little leeway. This emotional abuse is so hard, I’ve had to lean on other people, and that’s been a hard thing. But I’ve been so appreciative. I’m so thankful for your resources through BTR. It’s amazing, I just cannot get enough information. ## TRUSTING IN GOD AND SELF **Macie:** I believe God knows me better than myself. Even though what I’m going through seems unfair, I look around me and see so many people going through unfair situations. And I’m thankful for believing in something bigger than myself, that helps give me strength. And I also feel like trusting in myself as I move forward in my life. Because my [husband betrayed me and I don’t trust](https://www.btr.org/what-to-do-when-husband-betrays-your-trust/) myself. I’m working through that, and that’s why I’m thankful for all your resources to validate what I’m feeling. And to build me and help me move forward as a broken, strong warrior. **Anne:** Healing, a healing strong warrior, and you will. Thank you so much for sharing your story today, **Macie:** Thanks for having me. ## THE EMOTIONAL ABUSE CHECKLIST YOU NEED **Anne:** Is emotional abuse considered domestic violence? Yes, emotional abuse is considered domestic violence. A domestic violence survivor will share her story with us today. And we’re going to explain why. Because it’s important to understand why emotional abuse is considered domestic violence. In fact, I think it’s the most important one, because physical violence never occurs without emotional abuse. So if everyone can learn to recognize emotional abuse and protect themselves from it. Your chances of physical harm go down drastically. To illustrate how emotional abuse is domestic violence. My book *Trauma Mama Husband Drama.* really helps, because it is an actual picture book. There are a ton of infographics in the back that illustrate this type of domestic violence and explain why emotional abuse is domestic violence. It’s an extremely quick read. So if you have people around you that are having a difficult time wrapping their heads around what you’re going through, this book is the perfect way to educate them. You can find [*Trauma Mama Husband Drama* on this link](https://www.btr.org/books/), which is my books page. It’ll just take you to Amazon. You can also find it on Amazon. When you purchase it, circle back around and give it a five star rating, because so many women are searching for books, and they find, *The Five Love Languages* or *Men are From Mars,* books that are not helpful. So if you rate it, it’ll help women find this podcast. Which is free to everyone, even if they never purchased the book. All right. ## EVIE’S STORY: WHEN YOU CAN’T PROVE EMOTIONAL ABUSE IN COURT **Anne:** Now, let’s get to Evie’s story. Welcome. **Evie:** Thank you so much for having me. I come from a small town, so I met my husband. i had no idea his behavior was the classic example of emotional abuse. All the emotional abuse checklists I’d seen before didn’t have the subtle types of emotional abuse on them. Isolation is huge, but that was the first big hurdle he didn’t have to cross. Because I didn’t have any family or friends in this new state. Already I was vulnerable, just because I didn’t know anybody. And so it’s so much harder when your gut tells you one thing. And you don’t have anybody else that you trust to bounce those thoughts and feelings off of. Initially, there were a lot of [silent red flags in our relationship](https://www.btr.org/silent-red-flags-in-a-relationship/ "silent red flags in our relationship"). He was jealous. That didn’t sit well with me. He was very quick to say things like, I love you. And I remember he said I was like, oh. I don’t feel that way yet. It’s been like a month or two. This is very fast. He reacted negatively to the fact that I wouldn’t say it back. And I was like, I just don’t want to lie to you. So things like love bombing at the beginning. It made it that much harder when the love bombing stopped. Because he yanked that away from me. And suddenly it went from, wow, at the beginning of a relationship. All he could do was shower me with compliments and say how much he loved me. And now I’m not getting any of that. ## IS EMOTIONAL ABUSE CONSIDERED DOMESTIC VIOLENCE? **Evie:** And so things like that were really big, and arguing with him was very hard. He would make me feel like I overreacted to everything, and that my reactions were not valid. And that he didn’t say or do whatever was brought up. And then I also felt very intimidated. He reminded me about other women he dated. And things he did to them when they left him. And so I remember only a couple months in. He let me know the ways he hurt other women. If I leave, what is he going to do to me? **Anne:** Were you aware of any exploitative material? **Evie:** I definitely knew that that was a thing for him. **Anne:** Did you find that to be a example of emotional abuse, or was it like, “Oh, everybody does this?” How did you feel about it at the time? **Evie:** Yeah, I don’t know that was something that was at the forefront of my mind. **Anne:** So you weren’t concerned about the pornography use. That wasn’t necessarily a red flag for you. For me it’s important for women to understand that [emotional abuse and infidelity](https://www.btr.org/emotional-abuse-and-infidelity/ "emotional abuse and infidelity") go hand in hand. It’s interesting to me because women who exploitative material is an issue for them. They don’t recognize, that emotional abuse is considered domestic violence? Maybe or the psychological abuse. When they find out about the use, they know something’s wrong, because they know this is a person who has told me he’s not going to use it. So the level of lying there gets intense, but he was lying to you about other things? ## FINANCIAL ABUSE IS AN EXAMPLE OF EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Evie:** Definitely, I found out he cheated on me, and I think I had always had that in the back of my mind. When that came out, that was huge for me, and there was some financial abuse, it was emotionally abusive as well. I was always very proud of my career and the fact that I was the first person in my family to graduate and get a degree. So when he put my career in jeopardy, that was the biggest red flag that this was a classic example of emotional abuse. I just wish I had the right emotional abuse checklist at the time, like yours. When I was with him, he took my voice away in more ways than one. And one of those was that he would constantly criticize my writing and wouldn’t let me keep journals. And so I turned to writing and sharing my story to start healing and [find my voice after emotional abuse.](https://www.btr.org/find-your-voice-after-emotional-abuse/ "find my voice after emotional abuse.") **Anne:** Domestic abuse and domestic violence are interchangeable. Someone can be an emotionally violent abuser without ever laying a finger on their victim. I frequently say domestic abuse rather than domestic violence. Just so women who haven’t been hit or punched don’t think, oh, this isn’t for me because I haven’t been physically harmed. And also, many people don’t realize that emotional abuse is a domestic abuse issue. It is under the umbrella of domestic violence. It’s also very typical that it never escalates to physical abuse. ## EMOTIONAL ABUSE VS. PHYSICAL ABUSE **Anne:** That’s when women also get very confused. Because they try to figure out what’s wrong. At least for me and so many other victims that I know, they went through years of emotional and psychological abuse where they couldn’t quite figure it out. And then once a violent act happened. It helped them see what was happening. So I try to help them identify emotional abuse vs psychological abuse is important. To do that you need to have examples of emotional abuse. **Evie:** Yeah, the emotional abuse vs psychological abuse was important to figure out. The stonewalling and gaslighting have left a toll on me. It’s still something that I’m trying to heal from every day. It’s one of those things where some days I’ll be great, “Oh yeah, my gut was right. This is not okay.” And some days it comes back full force. And I will have the negative self talk in my head. ## SHARING EXAMPLES OF EMOTIONAL ABUSE IS HEALING **Evie:** I shared my story in your community, so it was in front of a supportive audience. I was able to talk about my experience in your community who say, Hey, yeah, me too, because there’s so much power in knowing that you’re not going through something alone. And knowing that you can heal and grow alongside people. I was fortunate enough to find a community which I clicked with. There were three things that I appreciated. One of them was the power to share my story, get my voice back, and share my truth and not feel suppressed. And the second one was connecting with all these other survivors. I think community was huge. My experience, which was validated, and helped me know that I wasn’t alone. Because it’s so easy to think, wow, this doesn’t happen to anyone else. So knowing there were other women, and for me, they were all older than me. And I was the youngest one going through it at the time. It was great. And then the third thing I got out of it was education. I’m originally from a very small town. And had my story happened back in my small hometown, I would have had that same opportunity. And so It was great to share. No matter where I was, as long as I had internet access. I think those three pieces are huge stepping blocks for any survivor. **Anne:** Now, I can tell from the way you’re talking that you like the word survivor, which is awesome. I prefer the word victim. ## WHAT IS CONSIDERED EMOTIONAL ABUSE? And I’ll tell you why. not saying this to convince you or anyone else. But the reason why I like the word victim is because survivor to me feels like you survived the Titanic or something, right? Like, you got off the Titanic, and the Titanic sank, and you made it to shore, and you survived. The harm is over, but with emotional abuse and domestic violence it may continue because you share children. And because I share children with the man who is emotionally and psychologically abusive to me, I’m actually, literally constantly a victim. Literally, I’m still technically victimized. I’m still lied about, I’m still harmed through things he says. When I say victims, what I want to say is that women can protect themselves, even though the harm could still occur because they share children or for whatever circumstance. And so the reason I don’t like to call myself a survivor is because I’m like, I haven’t survived anything. I’m still struggling through this as safe as possible with the boundaries I have. What are your thoughts about that, as you’ve talked with other survivors? **Evie:** Yeah, I think labels are important for people. You know, many people want to go by thriver too. I think it is a popular word that’s surfacing in the survivor community. But yeah, labels are personal for people, so I think whatever you want to identify as, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. It’s your story, and however you want to be identified, that is okay. **Anne:** Yeah, I agree. I feel like you can thrive, you can survive. And I’m not sure if I will say I’m technically a victim forever. And actually I’m pretty happy and grateful to have the boundaries that I have. ## WHEN YOU’RE LOOKING FOR COUNSELORS FOR EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Anne:** The [Living Free strategies](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) can protect you. I still call myself a victim because he’s still abusive. Luckily, with the strategies, I can completely protect myself and my kids now. As you know, if you listen to this podcast, sharing stories is what this podcast is about. So if you’re interested in sharing your story, one option is to share it here on the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast](https://www.btr.org/podcast/). If you’re interested in sharing your story, please contact podcast@btr.org. As women think about sharing, what are some safety tips you would recommend? ## IS EMOTIONAL ABUSE CONSIDERED DOMESTIC VIOLENCE: SAFETY TIPS FOR SHARING YOUR STORY **Evie:** I think it’s important to listen to your intuition and figure out what is a safe audience for you. Maybe you tell a best friend, and if that goes well. Then you tell a family member, and if that goes well, maybe you tell your circle of friends. I think it’s really important to note that we don’t always get the response we’re hoping for especially with emotional abuse. I told some family members, and I thought I would get support and love, and that didn’t happen. And it’s okay to go at your own pace. If you tell someone and you don’t get a reaction that you should, that’s not on you. That’s on them. And if you want to take a break from sharing your story, then take a break. But if you want to keep sharing your story, keep looking for safe outlets to do so. Tell other survivors. I think that’s important. You know, those can be great ways to share your story. Because you’re sharing it with someone and people who do understand, because they’ve been through something similar. They’ll know how to support you and love you. And so I think those baby steps are important. And if you want to get your story out there to a bigger audience. Yeah, sharing on your podcast is one way to do that. You get to share your truth anonymously. You’re also protected. You do a great job. Because you don’t have to connect your name with your story. You can share your story anonymously and still feel like you’re getting your voice out there. ## USING PSEUDONYMS FOR PROTECTION It’s really just listening to your gut and figuring out, what do I need from sharing my story? And I know for me personally it was, I need to get my voice back. **Anne:** Every woman on this podcast uses a pseudonym for her own protection. Before I started this podcast, I was actually public speaking about what was happening with my abuser, thinking he was in recovery from addiction. We used our real names and spoke publicly at addiction recovery conferences. When I discovered all those lies that I accidentally promoted someone as a great guy, when he was a wolf in sheep’s clothing. I felt devastated. That was really, really hard for me to deal with. Having had the experience of using my real name and then doing this, I definitely chose to use a pseudonym so that I don’t have to go through that again, because that was awful. So that is one thing that I recommend for victims is to use a pseudonym. It’s helpful to keep you safe. **Evie:** Yes, absolutely. **Anne:** I don’t think many non-survivors listen to this podcast. If they do, thank you. I’m honored by you listening. Mostly the people that listen here are current victims of emotional abuse in marriage. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## THE BEST EMOTIONAL ABUSE SUPPORT GROUPS **Anne:** Why do you think it’s important to hear these examples of emotional abuse? **Evie:** It’s so important. I’m just trying to make sure that if there is one person out there hearing my story, who needs to hear what I’m saying. That’s who my audience is. Because whether they’re not a survivor, or they are, and they just don’t want to come to terms with that yet. I think it’s so important to ensure that we’re just spreading our truth. **Anne:** Yeah, that is a risky endeavor, to start sharing. The cool thing about when you start sharing is that you’ll know pretty quickly if it’s a safe situation or not. You can dip your toe in the water a little bit and see, is it safe to share with this person, with this group, or with these people? And you’ll know pretty quickly if it’s safe or not. And if it’s not safe, you can just back away. ## HEALING FROM EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Anne:** The [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) will teach you how to know if someone is safe or not. So, if you’re struggling with that right now, the BTR Living Free Workshop will help. Okay. Now back to years ago, Anne. And then the more you share and assess your emotional safety, the more you can identify a safe group. I think probably in your case, but I’m not sure. Don’t let me put words in your mouth if this is not the case. That now you feel like your support system, not just the other survivors you’re around, but also your friends and the people you interact with, feel safe for you. Is that the case? **Evie:** Oh, absolutely. **Anne:** Yeah, and you’ve developed that over time. So that’s awesome. And that’s what can come from reaching out and starting to share. Has anyone seemed safe at first, and then proved not safe? **Evie:** Yeah, I think that was particularly true with my family, you know, their family. And so obviously they get a little bit deeper level of initial trust and love from you. It’s just so important to have the right emotional abuse recovery That almost hurt the most for me. Because certain family members helped me when I needed to move out. And then later on kind of used my story against me and made me the black sheep of the family. But, as hard as that was, I’m in a good place now where I’m definitely setting healthier boundaries and able to understand what is acceptable respect and love from people. And it’s never easy to cut toxic family members out of your life. ## EMOTIONAL ABUSE, HOW TO HEAL ​ **Anne:** Yep, the longer you go with either no abuse happening in your life anymore. Or in my case, the longer I set pretty strict boundaries to keep me safe from the harm, the stronger we get. In healing from emotional abuse and domestic violence the most important factor is distance from the abuse. And I highly recommend that women join a network of support, like [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group](https://www.btr.org/group/), for example. That runs multiple times a day in every woman’s time zone, which is awesome. I talked to someone the other day. He said, oh, so BTR is a women’s empowerment organization. And I said, yeah, you could call it that, definitely. We want every woman to know she is important, cared about, loved, and doesn’t deserve harm. **Anne:** Thank you so much for sharing your story on our podcast today. **Evie:** Thank you so much for having me. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [How to Prepare for Divorce: 4 Critical Things](https://www.btr.org/how-to-prepare-for-divorce/) **Published:** June 16, 2026 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Many women find themselves torn between the hope that their husband will change and the desire for peace. **Content:** Many women quietly search how to prepare for divorce long before they say anything out loud. Preparing for divorce isn’t just paperwork. It’s emotional, strategic, and deeply personal. ## HOW TO PREPARE FOR DIVORCE: A PRACTICAL GUIDE FOR WOMEN Below are four essential steps to help you prepare for divorce with clarity. ### 1. GET EDUCATED ABOUT DIVORCE When women start researching how to prepare for divorce, they often focus only on legal logistics. But emotional and communication strategies matter just as much. It’s important to understand… - How to set boundaries during separation - How some spouses escalate when control shifts - What communication patterns protect you - What NOT to disclose too early ### 2. PROFILE YOUR HUSBAND One of the most overlooked parts of learning how to prepare for divorce is predicting how your husband will react. Why this matters: Divorce often changes dynamics. A man who seemed calm in marriage may become reactive when he realizes he is losing control. Knowing likely behaviors ahead of time allows you to: - Plan communication carefully - Avoid unnecessary confrontations - Protect documentation - Prepare emotionally Strategic preparation reduces chaos. [The Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) walks women through identifying patterns so they can anticipate reactions before filing papers. ### 3. FIND THE RIGHT EMOTIONAL SUPPORT Preparing for divorce can feel isolating. Even strong, capable women feel shaken. You may need: - A space to process fear - Validation when others minimize - Guidance on specific issues that aren’t covered on divorce “checklists” - Community with women who understand A support group like [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/group/) provides emotional support tailored specifically for women navigating betrayal and separation. The team at Betrayal Trauma Recovery are not just certified divorce coaches, they’re trauma-informed coaches who understand the emotional toll of deception, gaslighting, and chronic instability. Divorce may be a legal process, but it’s also an emotional journey. Having the right support can make the difference. ### 4. HAVE HOPE THAT YOU CAN THRIVE AFTER DIVORCE When researching how to prepare for divorce, many women feel fear about the unknown: - What will life look like? - Will I regret this? - Will my kids be okay? - Can I really rebuild? Worry is normal. But listening to stories from other women who have walked this road can provide strength. [The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast](https://www.btr.org/podcast/) shares real experiences from women who navigated divorce and found clarity, safety, and stability on the other side. Hearing those stories can help you see that divorce isn’t the end of your story. ## TRANSCRIPT: HOW TO PREPARE FOR DIVORCE **Anne:** I have asked my friend Debra Doak author of *High Conflict Divorce for Women*, *Your Guide to Coping Skills and Learning Strategies for All Stages of Divorce*. So for women wondering how to prepare for divorce, this interview is for you. Welcome Debra. **Debra:** Thank you. I’m thrilled to be here. ## HOW COMMON IS DIVORCE REGRET? **Anne:** So many women who have been through a divorce are like, ah, things would have gone so much better if I would have known this. Or if I would have known that. **Debra:** We don’t know what we don’t know. And as traumatized women, we often either underreact or overreact. Both of those things can put us in a poor position when it comes to divorce. We’re also often the lower earners, or stay at home parents, and can get hurt quickly in this process if not prepared, get caught off guard. We’re also more likely to make emotional decisions, instead of strategic decisions looking out for long-term well-being. And as we know, we are also likely to trust when trust isn’t really deserved. When you trust an untrustworthy person in divorce, sometimes that can come back to bite you. **Anne:** A lot of women aren’t interested in doing the Living Free Workshop, even though it’s for married, separated and divorced women. It’s just about strategy, but they don’t want to do it because they think. I only need to think about strategy in the worst case scenario. They want to focus on their marriage working out. **Debra:** When women are trying to make that stay, wait, or go decision. Having been through [betrayal trauma](https://www.btr.org/after-infidelity-free-email-course/ "betrayal trauma") myself, we take baby steps. Let’s get copies of financial documents, get a little more in the loop on finances. Let’s start setting a little money aside. So we kind of just put the tip our toe in the water of getting ready. ## OBSERVING FROM A SAFE DISTANCE **Debra:** While we’re going to give 150%, 100% to the marriage, and maybe 50 or 40 percent to setting yourself up just in case. **Anne:** Yeah, that’s exactly what the Living Free Workshop is about, how to observe from a safe distance. While determining his true character, what reality anticipates is what’s going to happen next. Also focusing on your own goals. So there is a section of Living Free that educates women about divorce. If they’re not interested, they can skip that part. But it’s just basic divorce education, which is important for every woman to have no matter what her situation is. **Debra:** Yeah, definitely is. I mean, preparation makes any divorce go more smoothly. Because when we act out of fear, we don’t make good decisions. And so even if you don’t have a high conflict person, divorce can still be very conflicted. In the case where you’ve been with an emotional abuser, you need to be prepared for what could happen. There’s a great [test to see if he’s emotionally abusive](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/), click here for that. The sense of entitlement that’s allowed them to behave in the ways they’ve behaved during the marriage. It is also a sense of entitlement that can cause a switch to flip when the woman decides to divorce them. **Anne:** Yeah, it’s hard to even wrap your head around the fact that they might flip that switch. And that happened in my case, it happens in almost every case I see. Where a woman was manipulated to think he would always pay child support or alimony. ## HOW TO SECRETLY PREPARE FOR DIVORCE **Anne:** And to be in the position where he’s not even remotely, the person you thought he was, is so alarming. And because we’ve all been through that stage where we think, he’s not going to do that to me. That’s not going to happen to me. I think all women, I mean, in high school or college, or somewhere, we all need education about divorce. **Debra:** For the women who don’t believe it’s going to happen to them. A common, what I call, dirty divorce trick is spousal starvation, and suddenly he reroutes that paycheck. Now you don’t have gas and groceries. What are you going to do? I hope your husband is a nice guy and negotiates fairly throughout, but what harm would it do if we had a little emergency savings account? What would it hurt if you took a few steps to protect you just in case? **Anne:** Yeah, because as you start getting healthier and setting boundaries. They will either improve, and they’re going to get it, or they’re going to get worse. But it’s not going to stay the same. Debra: It’ll change one way or the other. Either they will have a sense of guilt, remorse and empathy. Or, like I said, that sense of entitlement will come bubbling to the surface, and suddenly it becomes their money. And how dare you? So we just ask the what if questions. You’ve had a friend that went through a bad divorce. What if your husband did that? Maybe take a few baby steps to protect yourself. ## HOW TO FINANCIALLY PREPARE FOR DIVORCE **Debra:** In this day and age, it seems like betrayal is rampant. Sometimes it’s financial betrayal. And sometimes they actually don’t know for sure. They don’t have any proof, but a wife knows the truth. She may not know the facts, but she knows the truth. When you’re with an emotional abuser, there’s often financial abuse involved. So women may not have access to information about their marital finances. That makes it hard to get started if you don’t even know what’s on the table to be divided. If you don’t have access to your own money. So that makes things really hard. Often the abuse will still keep her in a one-down position. And she still feels like she doesn’t have the power and voice to stand up for what she deserves. **Anne:** To all my listeners, this is important. They’re going to get mad no matter what. So please don’t make decisions thinking, okay, he’s going to get mad if I do this. So I’m not going to do it to avoid making him mad. He’s going to be mad, no matter what. So just do whatever you want. That’s very, very important. Because so many women are trying to stop the abuse by doing what he wants. And that is not going to happen. **Debra:** Not at all. Not at all. Women in abusive situations need to start creating this exit strategy in stealth mode. So that when he gets crazy, she’s at least got a few things in place. So she has copies of financial documents in a safe space, because they disappear. She’s got some money set aside because money disappears. Those kinds of things. ## HOW TO THRIVE AFTER DIVORCE Debra: There are no winners in divorce. So everyone walks away feeling like they didn’t get what they wanted. One thing I see often with betrayed women is expecting the court system to mete out emotional justice. He cheated on me, so why do I have to do with less? Why do I have to live in a small apartment? Why do I have to drive a used car? Whatever the what if is or why. And unless it’s something really egregious that’s going to shock the court, there’s no emotional justice. What we want to come away from a divorce with is a settlement where we made intentional decisions. And that we can feel good about. So we had all the information we needed, and every choice was intentional. Sometimes you will give up something that you were entitled to in order to get something else. And that’s okay, as long as it was an intentional decision as you prepare for divorce. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) So we just don’t want to come away feeling like we were missing information or a victim. Because what that does, and you’ll get this, it impacts their ability to recover from it afterwards. Divorce can be a bump in the road. It doesn’t have to be your destination. And so the more empowered you feel during the process, even though crappy things are happening, and he’s mean and unfair. And you may not get everything you want. If you can feel like you were informed you’re going to recover and move through that healing phase so much faster. Anne: Yeah. that’s the point of [the Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). ## HOW TO PREPARE FOR DIVORCE EMOTIONALLY **Anne:** On our BTR Team, our coaches are betrayal trauma coaches. They’re also certified divorce coaches, so they can walk you through this and help you implement the Living Free strategies. They can help you prepare and stealth mode. Like she was talking about. The other thing our coaches do is help you work through those emotions. **Debra:** Yeah, when we talk about preparing for divorce, I talk about two people you need on your team. And that’s, I call a BFF backup. This is the person you can call at three in the morning, who can pick your kids up from school. Who knows what you’re thinking before you do. When they say, how are you? And you say, I’m okay. They go, no, you’re not. So you need a BFF backup and a taskmaster. Your taskmaster friend is someone who might not sit with their arm around you, but there’s someone who will research attorneys for you. We’ll do all the real estate legwork. We’ll go to the grocery for you. Someone who will do the things that you’re too emotionally crippled to even deal with. And then you need a safe place to share and be real. Because emotional regulation is key during this process, and by regulating or managing your emotions, I don’t mean stuffing them. What I mean is having some place safe with a coach, a super healthy friend or family member to get that stuff out. So that you can be strategic in your planning, and you want to have a safe place to get those emotions out. And then you also want to get the affirmation that what you’re feeling is normal as you prepare for divorce. ## PREPARATION FOR DIVORCE MAKES A HUGE DIFFERENCE **Debra:** Women say, I can’t remember where my keys are. I’m crying all the time. Of course you are. Of course, you feel that way. Look at what you’re going through. In divorce care, they tell you that sometimes, I think 80 percent of your brain can be occupied with thoughts about divorce. If you think about a computer, 80 percent of your computer’s RAM is busy processing thoughts about the divorce. And only 20 percent is available for your daily living. Of course, you’re going to forget your keys. **Anne:** Here are two concrete examples. I wasn’t able to read written instructions well. And so I asked a friend whose daughter was in my son’s preschool at the time. My son and her daughter were going to the same preschool, and we would get these emails or texts about what was happening. I couldn’t process them. I would try. I’d look at them and I’d be like, Oh, something about a hat. You know, I couldn’t figure it out. And so I asked her, I said, I can’t process written information in these emails and texts. So keep this in mind when your preparing for divorce. If something is important, will you please call me or send a text and say, send him in a hat like the simplest text possible? Just one thing, so I didn’t have to read the explanation or whatever, and she was happy to do that for me. And so she would call or send me a very simple text. Now, a lot of people don’t have a friend like that, but I think they can develop a friend like that. ## HELP WITH DIVORCE PAPERWORK **Anne:** There might be someone who goes to church with you, someone in your neighborhood, another woman maybe who has been through it, who you didn’t realize who could help you out. It’s scary to ask, but I have found that a lot of people say yes. I think the scariest part is actually asking. **Debra:** It is. People will tell you, if you need anything, let me know. But they don’t know what you need. But they really do want to help. If you have a leaking faucet, someone wants to fix it for you. Someone wants to help you go over your documents. Someone wants to help you do those things. They don’t say that out of routine or ritual. They want to help. Because they just don’t know what you need. **Anne:** I think another traumatic situation here is the person who used to fix your faucet. And the person who helped you with your legal documents is your husband. There’s this other element of I need help, and the person who is helping me isn’t here, and what do I do? I’m alone! Like, he used to fix the faucet. That is also really traumatic through this time. **Debra:** It is because for your support, you need a coach, an attorney, a financial person. But you need to think ahead, so that you can keep yourself more centered and stable. **Anne:** This is why you need all these people in your corner. Because you’re rightfully and normally reacting to a really, really hard situation when you’re preparing for divorce. **Debra:** Exactly, it’s normal. Of course you are. Let’s get you set up for success. ## MAKE SELF-CARE A PRIORITY WHEN FILING FOR DIVORCE **Anne:** Because if you say you should be able to handle this, why can’t you read? Why can’t you blah, blah, blah. You’re just going to get more and more depressed and overwhelmed. **Debra:** Right, yeah. Just to know that it’s normal. There are things you’re going to have trouble with. So how can we put measures in place to fill those gaps until you’re ready? And it might be a month, and it might be six months, but let’s think through who can help you. And that’s one of the things your taskmaster can do. Your taskmaster can find other people. Well, who can fix my faucet? Who can cut my grass? Who can do these things? Your taskmaster friend can do that. **Anne:** What do you believe are the most important things for listeners facing a high conflict divorce to know ahead of time? **Debra:** First of all, self care. When we’re going through a stressful time, one of our first tendencies is to cut back on self care. Because we have our normal life. Plus, now I have to fit in attorney appointments and financial appointments. And like I’ve added to my daily stress. And so we tend to cut back on self care, but what you need to do is double it. Because especially if you were in an abusive marriage, you developed coping mechanisms to get through the day with that partner. Those aren’t going to work anymore during divorce, so you have to make sure your tank is full. So increasing self care is important. We talked about safe people and a support team. You cannot do divorce alone. It’s too hard. You’re too traumatized. So get the right people around you as you prepare for divorce. ## USING SOCIAL MEDIA DURING A DIVORCE **Debra:** Work on regulating your emotions so that you can make strategic decisions. Get the right help to process them. Vent to safe people. Because you want to make decisions you feel good about. Again, you may not get everything you want, but you at least want to feel empowered and informed. Shut down your social media. Block everyone he’s friends with. If his family supports him, block them, unfriend them. Don’t post anything. Live like a nun, especially if you’re going to be in a custody battle. **Anne:** I could not agree more. I deleted all my social media accounts, and I would highly recommend that for people. **Debra:** Don’t be out at a concert with a cocktail in your hand. Just don’t do it. Even though it’s fun and you want to show your friends that you went to the Jimmy Buffett concert, don’t do it. And then be careful of Switzerland friends. Those are people, they love both of you. He’s a great guy. We just want to be friends with both of you. No, absolutely not. And you don’t have to be cold or cruel about it, but take a step back. If you run in the same circles and you’re around them, just be very cautious what you say. Don’t discuss your divorce. Don’t discuss your partner. We talked about Switzerland friends, shutting down your social media, those kind of things. If you don’t keep control of yourself and what you say and do, it could be used against you. So it can hurt your case. If you’re preparing for divorce you need to keep this in mine, if you act out or send that email or send that text. Those things could be used against you. So it’s not in your best interest. ## HOW TO MENTALLY PREPARE FOR A DIVORCE **Debra:** Other people can get hurt when you’re not managing your emotions, and specifically your children. It’s the hardest thing to model healthy behavior to your children while you’re under this stress. It’s the hardest thing you’ll ever do in your life. Yet it’s the most important thing. And then finally, and you talked about this, we can’t make good decisions when we’re crying, and we can’t think about it. And our brain isn’t working right. So being able to maintain that sense of calm and clarity and focus on our purpose. Focus on the end game instead of living in the moment. Is critical to making good decisions as you prepare for divorce. **Anne:** Did you watch *Marriage Story*? **Debra:** I did. The emotion of it didn’t surprise me, the hurt, you know, the pain, the anger. What surprised me was how realistic their portrayal was of how our legal system creates litigious situations. When they don’t have to be. **Anne:** It was interesting that he had an affair, so there’s a betrayal. I listened to *Pop Culture Happy Hour*. They reviewed it, and they were like, this is a situation where you’ve got a nice man and a nice woman, and this is how divorce goes. They didn’t weigh the betrayal at all. It carried no weight in terms of fault. Instead, they focused on the idea that the couple had grown apart or weren’t really compatible. And I thought this is why so many women feel so betrayed in general. Because society in general doesn’t understand this. Although it showed the legal system well, I don’t think it got to the heart of the cause. ## PREPARING FOR DIVORCE: COMMON THEMES **Debra:** I agree. They glossed over the betrayal, and I think that’s just so indicative of culture. Culture says, eh, no big deal. Or culture says, well, you know, she wasn’t sleeping with him, so what’s a guy supposed to do? That patriarchal attitude is still so prevalent in society that nobody blinked at that. **Anne:** I know, I thought the part where her attorney, Nora, said you have to be perfect, and he doesn’t have to be perfect. It was so spot on. **Debra:** Spot on, the judges need to hear what they want to hear, and see. This is important as you prepare for the divorce, the judges and magistrates are looking for something from you, and you better present it. **Anne:** Well, yeah, I mean, it’s so traumatic. There are so many reasons why divorce is so traumatic that it just overwhelms your brain, you know? **Debra:** There are so many reasons, and they’re always individual. But there are three common themes: money, kids, and conflict. So often, women have been kept out of the loop in terms of finances, or stay at home moms or lower earners. And they’re worried, can they support themselves? They’re often worried about the impact this will have on their children. And they’re worried about the conflict, because we know that when we’re married to abusers, they don’t like to be told no. Sometimes you have to pick your hard when we’re on the fence, and work through that decision. Because it’s also hard to stay married to an abuser. ## THE RIGHT SUPPORT WHEN PREPARING FOR DIVORCE **Anne:** The thing that so many women appreciate about Betrayal Trauma Recovery Services is that our goal is to give women information. And then to validate and support them. So there’s never going to be a time when someone comes to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, where we say you have to get divorced. We give women the education they need, give them their options, and then help them assess what’s right for them. Can you talk about how [Betrayal Trauma Recovery coaches support women through making their own decisions](https://www.btr.org/individual/)? **Debra:** The first thing a [Betrayal Trauma Recovery coach](https://www.btr.org/individual/) will do is help a woman seek peace and safety. So helping them observe their partner’s patterns of behavior, helping them set the boundaries they need. And determining if they need to set the next boundary, the next boundary, and the next boundary. So when the boundaries aren’t working and they have to set tighter or stronger boundaries, that’s when we start to see separation or financial separation or start to take those bigger steps. ![How to Prepare for Divorce](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Prepare-For-Divorce-1024x1024.webp "How to Prepare for Divorce")And so when they get to that point, that’s when the word divorce starts coming up in their mind and they start thinking, Hmm, I wonder if this will have to be the next step I take. So you can pray your husband recovers. And simultaneously, get yourself knowledgeable about what it would look like if I took this other path toward divorce. And for many women, we go back and forth for a long time. When I prepare divorce, how will I know when it’s time to go? ## HOW TO PREPARE FOR DIVORCE AS A WOMAN **Debra:** You will have a crystalline moment of clarity. There comes for most women, a time when the heavens open up, a spotlight shines down, and you know, today’s the day. When that happens for you, when you have that moment of clarity, I want you to be ready and not afraid. So if we have all this information, you will be prepared for what divorce will look like, and you know what you’re stepping into. When the heavens open and the spotlight shines on you, and you know today’s the day, you’ll simply nod your head and say, okay. I’m not scared. **Anne:** And that day might never come. **Debra:** It might never. It might be next week, a year from now or it might never come. But if it does, you’ll be ready. **Anne:** There are so many things that those who have gone through divorce wish we had known long before we even started considering it. Because it would have helped prepare us. So at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, like I said before, our coaches are certified divorce coaches. They can help women anticipate things, and women can get assistance through [group sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/) or [individual sessions](https://www.btr.org/individual/). Can you talk about the difference between group and individual sessions here at BTR? ## THE BTR TEAM CAN HELP YOU PREPARE FOR DIVORCE **Debra:** Sure, [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Support Group](https://www.btr.org/group/) is where you can get help tackling a particular high level issue. For instance, can you give me a few tips on how to talk to a six year old about this? And so, in three or four minutes, a BTR coach might give a couple of high level tips about age appropriate conversation, great. In an[ individual session](https://www.btr.org/individual/), they can look at your finances. Look at your budget. Talk through a strategy to get back to work. They can help you make negotiation decisions, get into the meat of it. Talk about how to pick the right attorney for your case, who else you might need on your team. Like, they can dive into the details of your particular situation that probably aren’t appropriate for group. And so you can get really individual stuff there in order to prepare for divorce. It makes a big difference to actually look at your spreadsheets and numbers, especially if you haven’t been involved in your finances. [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/emotional-abuse-support-groups-online/ "Betrayal Trauma Recovery") can educate you about some of that. **Anne:** Exactly, and some of that’s kind of DIY in [the Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/), or if you need help implementing those strategies, you can do Group or Individual Sessions. So, if a woman is listening and she thinks divorce might be in her future, what are some of the first steps that she should take? **Debra:** The first thing I want to say is what you shouldn’t do. Please do not tell your spouse. I don’t want you to put that out there until you can get educated about it in the workshop. Just make sure you aren’t deciding not to divorce, because a fear that’s not rooted in truth is standing in your way. ## HERE’S HOW TO FINANCIALLY PREPARE FOR DIVORCE **Debra:** A woman who lived in the San Francisco Bay area where it’s expensive. She thought I can never ever afford to leave. There’s no way. I’m miserable, I want to leave, but I can’t afford to. And when she looked at the numbers, her budget was only short a thousand dollars a month. Then she thought, I can find a way to earn two hundred and fifty dollars a week. So is that fear holding you back? Make sure it’s not a false fear that’s holding you back. I’m not trying to get you to decide, I just want you to have truth. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, it’s all about truth. All truth all the time. **Anne:** Yeah, and it’s painful, especially when so many of us come from a religious background. So it feels like maybe “betraying” our husband. I’m going to say that in quotes, because obviously we’re not, because he betrayed us. Also in so many ways it feels like we’re betraying God. **Debra:** So that’s another one of those fears. Decide to face our fears. See if they’re real. Because regardless of the conflict and regardless of the parenting. For the most part, divorce is breaking a legal contract about money. That’s what many decisions will be about. That’s what the law is written about. So, understand the money involved as your preparing for divorce. Do you have access to your tax returns, your husband’s pay stub, or W 2? Do you know how much is in your retirement account? How much your house is worth? What’s the balance on your mortgage? Do you know what your monthly expenses are? It’s good to have the financial information before you consult with an attorney, so that an attorney can estimate of spousal support and child support. ## HOW TO TELL YOUR HUSBAND YOU WANT A DIVORCE **Debra:** That’s what we need to help fill in our budget. If one of your fears is, well, I’ve been a stay at home mom, I don’t think I can support myself. Well, then the income line in your budget will be mostly child support and spousal support. So that’s important information to know. So gather some of the financials before you consult with an attorney. That way, that meeting will be much more productive for you. **Anne:** If a woman decides she wants to divorce, she’s prepared. She’s worked with a Betrayal Trauma Recovery coach. She’s done everything she needs to do, and she’s ready to do it. When is the right time to tell her husband that she wants a divorce? **Debra:** You are an expert on your husband. One of the preparation steps, and you’ll go through this in the workshop, is setting up a bank account. And making sure you have emergency funds, because a dirty divorce trick abusers like to play is move their paycheck and not give you access to any money. So if you think that’s the case, you tell him the same day you file the paperwork. **Anne:** So many women in our community, me included, did not think our husband was like that. And then we found out that he is like this. It was shocking to us during the divorce process. Like in my case, he shut down our bank account. And really, the abuse starts to be very overt. Where perhaps, before it was covert. For me, it was shocking and upsetting, but it was also like, I guess, I made the right decision. ## WHEN CAN YOU FILE FOR DIVORCE? **Debra:** It’s confirmation, yeah. **Anne:** Yeah, because it was like, whoa, when [divorcing an abusive husband](https://www.btr.org/divorcing-an-abusive-husband/ "divorcing an abusive husband"), he’s getting more and more deliberate and harmful through this, not less. And it will hurt you, but you can also think, Oh, okay, this is another sign that I’m making the right decision. **Debra:** We, as women, have such a tendency to wait until the bullets start flying before we put on our armor. And I want women in abusive relationships to know, if he says, don’t worry, I’m going to be fair. Don’t worry, I’ll always take care of you and the kids. If this is a person who’s been deceiving you for a decade, I’m not sure we should take that statement at face value. Let’s prepare for divorce and assume it’s not true. And if it turns out that he negotiates in good faith and takes care of you, that’ll be a bonus. **Anne:** Because this is someone who looked you straight in the eye and said, of course, I’m faithful to my marriage vows and had an affair. **Debra:** Let’s just make sure we have on our Kevlar vest just in case. So the best time to tell him is when it’s done. This is another thing a Betrayal Trauma Recovery coach can help with is preparing you for that conversation. One alternative is not to have the conversation. If you are already separated, you can simply file and have him served. If you want to have the conversation, the conversation is very simple. It’s, this is a decision I’ve made, it’s what I need to do for me. ## WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU FILE FOR DIVORCE? **Debra:** When he rails against it, you can say, I hear you’re mad, I hear you’re upset, I hear this isn’t the way you wanted it to go. This is the decision I’ve made for me. He’s gonna throw accusations at you, and you don’t need to defend yourself. You don’t need to explain why you chose to do it. Or you don’t have to tell him all the ways he hurt you. You simply repeat, this is a decision I felt like I needed to make. **Anne:** Yeah, because as I explained in the Living Free Workshop, if you try to explain it, or you’re hoping somehow, you can get some resolution with an emotional abuser like this. It’s not going to go that way. He’s going to use it to abuse you more. **Debra:** Correct, we don’t mention divorce when we prepare until we are doing it. It is never a threat. It’s never an incentive. It’s never a punishment. So, this conversation is only a notification conversation. Then he may throw declarations, you’ll never get a penny, you’ll never see the children, I’m getting full custody, you’ll be homeless. Whatever these declarations are, my best response is to say, we’ll see, that’s it. This is not a time where you’re going to negotiate, don’t fight back, don’t explain, you simply say, this is a decision that I feel like I need to make. If he throws those accusations or declarations out, you simply say, we’ll see, and that’s it. that’s the end of the conversation. **Anne:** Yep, I learned the hard way, which was why I was so passionate about writing the Living Free Workshop. Because I didn’t want any other woman to learn the hard way. ## THE BEST PREPARATION FOR DIVORCE: THE LIVING FREE WORKSHOP **Anne:** But I totally get it. If you’re listening and you’re like. I don’t want to do the Living Free Workshop. I’m not interested in learning about this. I get it. Because I was there for a long time too. In my own experience, I just wish I had known what I know now. That’s all. And that’s why I want to share it with you. Especially because the strategies in the Living Free Workshop feel so counterintuitive. It’s not like anything a therapist will tell you or anybody else. It’s completely different. **Debra:** Yes. **Anne:** Can you go deeper about why it’s important to work with someone who understands this abuse dynamic when they’re getting a divorce. Instead of just getting support from like a regular therapist, or even trying to get emotional support from your attorney or sister? **Debra:** I just demonstrated one of them, helping you plan for that conversation so that it goes well and you can stay as safe as possible in that conversation. If you let your emotions, or your amygdala, your fight, flight, or freeze, reflex, drive what you’re doing in the divorce. You won’t fare as well. If a coach can keep you calm and emotionally regulated, so that you can make informed strategic decisions. You will do a lot better emotionally, financially and relationally. You’ll be a better mom through the process. You’ll help your kids navigate the process better. Your attorney is not an expert on the emotions in divorce. They’re an expert in the legal process. **Anne:** Many women want to talk to their attorney a lot, getting validation from their attorney. Or even want their attorney to be their therapist, which is an expensive way to go. ## HOW TO START PREPARING FOR DIVORCE **Anne:** The[ Living Free Workshop ](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/)and [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group](/group) are much less expensive than an attorney’s hourly fee. **Debra:** And they’re better at it. **Anne:** Yeah. **Debra:** Just to say that. They’re better at supporting women in trauma when they prepare for divorce. An attorney is not skilled at it, trained at it, and they haven’t been through it. **Anne:** Don’t look to your attorney for emotional support or validation or anything like that. It’s not what they’re trained to do, and it will be frustrating and extremely expensive. **Debra:** And they won’t help you be a better mom, stay grounded, and make the best decisions for you. They’ll tell you what the law says about how it works. Mediation can be a decent choice, but you have to be prepared for that. And you need someone strong in your corner helping you prepare for mediation. **Anne:** To get more information about the [Living Free Workshop, click this link](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). It’s amazing. It’s helpful. You also need support. And that’s what [Betrayal Trauma Recovery group sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/) are all about. Group sessions you can get in every day. It’s an amazing resource. So thanks for your help today. Debra. **Debra:** I love it. I love it. Betrayal Trauma Recovery is an amazing organization. it’s what I wish I’d had. **Anne:** Yeah, me too. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Common Signs of a Toxic Relationship That Might Surprise You](https://www.btr.org/signs-of-a-toxic-relationship/) **Published:** June 23, 2026 **Author:** julielbyrnes@gmail.com **Excerpt:** If your marriage feels confusing or intense, you may be seeing signs of a toxic relationship. Learn more. **Content:** Are you seeing things in your marriage or a relationship that feel a little intense or puzzling…and you’re not sure if they’re normal or actually signs of a toxic relationship? If so, it’s important to pause and look at the pieces of the puzzle together to see what they might be telling you. To discover if you’re in a toxic relationship take our free [emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). Here are five things that might seem “normal,” but aren’t: ## SIGNS OF A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP THAT ARE EASY TO MISS ### **1. HE WANTS TO MOVE THE RELATIONSHIP FORWARD QUICKLY** When you’re in a relationship with someone who seemingly shares and cares about your values and interests, it’s easy to be swept up by the intensity of it all. Especially if the relationship seems to happen at the “right” time, and things move forward quickly. But this level of intensity and pace doesn’t give you time to slow down and really think about *why* you seem so compatible. ### **2. HE WANTS CONSTANT ACCESS TO YOU, BUT HE’S CLOSED OFF** It might seem caring for your husband to be curious about your life and daily activities. But if he’s constantly calling or texting, and questioning you about your whereabouts and who you’re with, while withholding those same details about his life from you, you’re not in a reciprocal relationship. His “curiosity” or suspicion, is most likely stemming from his own toxic patterns of behavior. ### **3. HIS MOODS SHIFT SUDDENLY AND YOU DON’T KNOW WHY** Think about it…in healthy relationships, partners are usually aware of the reasons why one partner isn’t in a good mood. They typically communicate about bad days at work or when they’re not feeling well. But in toxic relationships, that level of trust and communication often isn’t there, because one partner doesn’t want it to be. Everything’s fine, until it’s not, and then, it suddenly is again… And you’re left trying to figure out what changed. ### **4. HE**‘S **UPSET OVER SMALL THINGS** Things that don’t seem like a big deal, suddenly are signs of a toxic relationship. For example, you miss a turn on the way to his best friend’s birthday party… and suddenly it’s not about directions anymore. He’s accusing you of being disrespectful, or doing it on purpose because you don’t want to go. Or you might simply ask him to help with the groceries, and suddenly he’s angry because, “you don’t respect his time and all the things he has to do.” ### **5. HE’S AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PERSON IN PUBLIC** Around friends, he’s calm, kind, helpful, fun-loving, and completely attentive. In counseling, he appears thoughtful, and sincere about working on the relationship. He says all the right things. He wants to understand. But when you’re alone again, his warmth and willingness to do the work or even understand the issues disappears. And now you’re left dealing with that and the isolation that comes from knowing that everyone on the outside sees him as a “great guy.” If you relate and you need support, we’re always online to help you. Go to btr.org/group/ to see my [daily support group schedule](https://www.btr.org/group/). ## TRANSCRIPT: EARLY SIGNS OF A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP WITH YOUR HUSBAND **Anne:** I did an interview with a member of our community. We’re going to call her Iris, She talked about how his toxic patterns showed up in her marriage and what happened when she started using the strategies she learned in my workshop. Here’s that interview. Welcome, Iris. **Iris:** Thank you. Glad to be here. **Anne:** Let’s start at the beginning of your story. Can you talk about how you felt when you first met your husband? **Iris:** He was very charming, and he seemed extremely sincere. Now I understand that he was love bombing me and was trying to make things go fast. It was very intense. And he preyed upon me at a time when I was really ready to get married and have kids. Everybody was getting married and having kids. So he went right for what was the most vulnerable part of me. And we met through a young adult single thing in our group. He proceeded to be very attentive. **Anne:** When you say young adult, single thing, that sounds a little bit like my faith. What’s your faith background? **Iris:** it’s the Catholic church. It’s actually Theology on Tap, which is at a brew pub, and you can buy a drink and mingle. And then they have a speaker. **Anne:** Kind of Matt Fraddish. **Iris:** Yes. **Anne:** I actually know Matt Fradd in real life. **Iris:** And I don’t go to the Catholic church anymore. But that was a huge part of our marriage and, we were really in a circle of pretty devout people. Which also I think contributed to my willingness to submit to him. **Anne:** When you say submit, can you talk about that a little bit more? ## EARLY CONTROL DISGUISED AS CARE AND SHARED VALUES **Iris:** Hindsight, there were red flags before we married. There were early signs of [coercive control](/coercive-control/). It dates me, but cell phones weren’t the norm yet. And he bought me a cell phone so he could reach me more easily. He was pretty volatile. He asked me to marry him within a month or two and I deferred and we dated longer, but he was just intense. Then he would be very sorry. He would cold shoulder me at points. He’d be angry for things that were weird, wasn’t very flexible. Now I know these were signs of a toxic relationship. We went through nine months of marriage prep. So many Christian circles focus on the idea that the man is the head. I saw that in my parent’s marriage too. My dad made all the decisions. My mom was independent in some ways, but she still did what he wanted. I think I expected marriage to look like that. The husband leads and the wife follows. Even though I was independent, had a master’s degree, was over 30, and had traveled, I still lived in a huge Christian community where that model of marriage was everywhere. ## NOT RECOGNIZING SIGNS OF A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP **Anne:** And you just mentioned nobody actually says that, but they actually do say that, it might not be in so many words. It might not be so directly, but they like actually say it. And if you call ’em out and say, “Hey, you said this.” They usually deny it. “Of course, I didn’t say that.” And you’re like, “What? You did.” That’s the part that’s really confusing. The therapists come in or the clergy comes in, or the friends and family, and they gaslight you too. It’s like, “You’re putting words in my mouth. I didn’t say that.” Especially when they find out what he is really like, and you’re like, “What?” “You told me this.” “Well, I never did.” And they for sure did. It’s almost like no matter what you do, you can’t win. There are friends of mine and maybe friends of yours too, who are amazing and they’re like, “Oh my word, I said the wrong thing.” That is so validating. I feel like when I meet people like that, it’s easy to be like, “It’s okay did the ‘wrong thing’ too. I was doing the best I could and I didn’t know that he was abusive. And I didn’t know what was happening, and didn’t recognize signs of a toxic relationship. So I can’t blame you either.” But, for the other people who continue to not believe us and deny that they said or did certain things. ‘That’s harder. Cause it becomes this almost group of unhealthy people that you’re dealing with, rather than just the one unhealthy person. **Iris:** Right. ## SIGNS OF A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP: THE SUDDEN SWITCH AFTER MARRIAGE **Anne:** Did you end up going to couple therapy? **Iris:** In the Catholic Church you do Pre-Cana, which is pre-marriage counseling, and they saw some things that were concerning. He was very intent that he could change things. They would categorize it like how we were different. I think she said to me, “Life might always be kind of hard for him.” ‘Cause that’s what she was seeing.. He works very hard, so he seems very sincere. And he met with the man in the couple we met with. And read books and was very sincere. They said to us, “Oh, we’ve never seen somebody work so hard to try to improve themselves so that they’re ready for a marriage.” He impressed them, and I remember feeling exhausted by that point. And it was a mask. I now know that these were signs of a toxic relationship. **Anne:** Like you shouldn’t have to work that hard. to be normal. They are hard workers, because it would be very hard to pretend all the time. **Iris:** Right, and that’s how he lives. He has a mask all the time. We had this huge Catholic wedding, like an hour and 20 minute long mass. And it was that night the switch flipped. And he was angry. He cold shouldered me. We’d waited till our wedding night, and he said things that were incredibly humiliating. ## SEEING THE SAME SIGNS OF A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP IN OTHER WOMEN’S STORIES **Iris:** Then the next morning he would hardly talk to me. And we left the beautiful hotel. We were to go to a morning brunch at my parents, with guests who were from outta town and our families. And he was furious because people had decorated our car. And he had to stop at a car wash to rinse everything off before we even got to the wedding brunch. **Anne:** I used this story in my book. **Iris:** You did? **Anne:** Yes, this story. Someone else had the same story. **Iris:** Isn’t that amazing? Like how these Chucks do the same thing to us and have all the same signs of a toxic relationship. **Anne:** ‘ Like *Twilight Zone*. Cause you never gave me that story. **Iris:** isn’t that amazing? I feel like that in group a lot. I’m like, “Oh, that happened to me.” **Anne:** BTR has been like me trying to fit all the pieces together. And as I’ve tried to fit all the pieces together, things became very clear. And I’ve become very good at seeing in the dark. So this piece of the puzzle I was trying to get it to fit. Like why did he do that? I’ve never met you before, but I spent a lot of time piecing just this piece. With the other pieces that I had of other people’s stories to say, what was this about? I’ve spent so much time with this story in my brain and what it meant. I’m like, holy cow. **Iris:** Thank you. Thank you for somewhere to tell it, because it was something that felt so shameful for such a long time, rejected, and humiliated. ## RECOGNIZING THE PATTERNS OF EMOTIONALLY ABUSIVE PARTNERS **Iris:** So we went to that wedding brunch, and I knew he was on edge the whole time. Other people didn’t necessarily see that. We got back to the house we were making our home together, which was his house. And he was angry, he didn’t want to go on our honeymoon, but I was like, I’ve been planning a wedding. All I have been thinking of is being able to go rest on a beach. So he agreed to go, and it was a really a horrible week. He was just fighting. His anger and unreasonableness, were more signs of a toxic relationship. It’s so hard, because he can make it feel like I’m also participating. We finally came home after the week, and at several points I thought maybe I should just fly home,’because it was awful. How would I even ask somebody to come and pick me up? What would I say? What would I do? Feeling so humiliated, like we had this big wedding, we’d done all this preparation, so we finally came home and I remember the first morning after we’d gotten home. He got up, he didn’t even talk to me. He grabbed his mountain bike, and he went mountain biking all day. That was a pattern that repeats throughout our marriage, where he just does his own, yeah. **Anne:** I had a mountain biking all day incident as well that I wrote about in my book. All of a sudden I’m like, what is happening? This is Twilight Zone, yes. **Iris:** No way. The Chucks, it’s the Chuck thing, which has been the most powerful thing to learn. ## WOMEN HAVE DIFFERENT RESPONSES **Anne:** Surreal that they’re all the same. I think that’s one of the powerful things about our group sessions is that the women are so different. We all react differently and we’re all doing the right thing. Because all of our personalities are different. So some of us want to protect ourselves by being quiet and sitting back and that’s the right thing for us. Some of us want to fight the guy, because that’s how our personality is. But they do all the same things. It doesn’t seem the same, because we haven’t acted the same. And I think the thing that like really helps it all come together is when you realize they’re so transactional. That they’re going to manipulate you in whatever way works for you, all signs of a toxic relationship. So if you’ve been trying to protect yourself in a certain way, they’ve been countering your protection methods in a certain way. And then when you change up the way you’re trying to protect yourself, they almost become like a different person. But they’ve been that same exact person the whole time. It’s just that they’re so transactional that they’re like, oh, that’s not working anymore. I have to do this other thing. And this whole new set of problems comes out so they can be super, super nice or super aggressive. But the whole time, it’s manipulation and lies. Did he ever go through a time where he seemed like he was really great? ## WHEN PREGNANCY AND BAD ADVICE KEEP YOU STUCK WITH SIGNS OF A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP **Iris:** I got pregnant right away, so I probably would’ve left, but then I was pregnant and trying to navigate that. When I found out I was pregnant with my first baby, I went to therapy right away, and that therapist just didn’t have the skills to recognize an [emotional cycle of abuse](/emotional-cycle-of-abuse/) and really gaslit me. Then got pregnant again when my daughter was nine months old. So I had two babies, under 18 months old. That was another thing. In my faith, that I grew up with, you’re supposed to accept all babies. That was something that really kept me trapped. I knew once I was pregnant that I would always have to be linked to him. And that was incredibly devastating and terrifying. I think the Christian, and I’m going to say trope, I don’t want to make fun of anybody, but the trope of marriage that you just have to work hard enough and it will all be fine. That really was so damaging when signs of a toxic relationship are present. He did tell me early in our marriage that he had struggled with porn. He did the *Every Man’s Battle* stuff and everything like that. Also he confided in me that he’d used some at work. He has a security clearance and was about to be interviewed with a, polygraph. He was afraid they would ask him something like that. At the time, he was abusive our whole marriage, but it was the most intense. I didn’t even have the wherewithal to understand that. It was disturbing, it made me feel awful. But I didn’t have any brain space to process what to do with that. He downloaded it on me to get it off his chest. ## HE WAS EMOTIONALLY ABUSIVE ALL OF THE TIME **Iris:** After my second baby was born, he was probably seven months old, I tried to leave to go to a mom’s group. My ex-husband was angry with me because of my daughter, who’s my older one. I was working on potty training her. And I let her wear pants without underwear. She pooped and he was furious. He came up behind me in the bathroom and pushed me against the counter and said, “Next time, make sure she wears underwear.” So he was abusive all of the time, disrupted my sleep, and would wake me up in the night angry if I coughed. I had to sleep on 18 inches of the bed or less, without moving to not anger him. The reaction I had was to kick him to get him to back up. That’s when he grabbed me by the throat and started to strangle me. And I know now, but I felt terrible later. All I wanted to do was leave. I got my coat and I got in the car and I left. My children were still in the house with him. I just wanted to get away. I went to the mom’s group like everything was fine. But I was dissociated and in trauma. I had gone to my therapist then within a day or two and just poured everything out. And her response was, other women have it worse. And I was so humiliated, like feeling somehow I had caused this. Even though like I knew, I have education. I was in my thirties, I knew that wasn’t right. But the abuse had taken so much of my strength. That kept me so trapped for so long. It made it harder to open up. ## THERAPISTS AREN’T EQUIPPED TO SEE SIGNS OF A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP **Iris:** And we went to so many marriage therapists, who just aren’t equipped. Because Chuck is charming, and they just don’t understand the dynamic except for one therapist who we did not go back to. They didn’t see the signs of a toxiC relationship. But she was crazy. So we went in, it was this dilapidated house. She was far back in the house. The door was open. We went in and sat down. Literally a dog with sores and the cone of shame came out, and she was like, I’ll be right there. Chuck was like, so wigged out. She came out and talked to us for a little while. She also had paranoid notes tacked up on her wall. Anyway, she talks to us for a little while, and Chuck is so wigged out, so Chuck is walking out. And before we leave she says, I want to give you something. ![Signs of a Toxic Relationship](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Signs-Of-A-Toxic-Relationship-1024x1024.webp "Signs of a Toxic Relationship")And she hands me a page, and it has books on it. So I went home and ordered it, and then it came and I didn’t read it, like I couldn’t read it. I didn’t read it for the longest time, because it was just so painful. But that was the only therapist who saw the signs of a toxic relationship. And then I found out the next week she lost her license, in the newspaper. Anyway, she was the only one who saw the abuse and handed me a key. **Anne:** So she handed you a clue. ## WHEN HIS “I CHOOSE YOU” DOESN’T ADD UP **Iris:** A clue, and she was right. I had gone to other therapists over the years. I looked just crazy, because I would just cry. One therapist had different offices and I would always go to the wrong one. because I had no short term working memory available. Chuck disrupted my sleep. I’d be in the shower, he’d bring the baby in screaming and put them on the bath mat and I’d have to get out and take care of the baby. He’d drive angry, the list goes on and on. I just didn’t have the words to explain. We went to a mom’s group event where dads were invited. And he was angry at me the whole time, but only I knew that. And then I had to get in the car and drive home with him. So it was really intense. And then at about the seven year mark, he decided that marriage worked for him. It was such a delight, such a relief to have him gone for two weeks. He came home from a business trip. And he said, “I realized it’s been you the whole time. You’re really the one that I want to be married to.” **Anne:** Oh **Iris:** Right. **Anne:** Wait, he was having an affair. **Iris:** I don’t know. **Anne:** That sounds like something someone would say if they just broke up with someone. Because they’re like trying to choose between the person they’re having an affair with. In my book, I put the pieces together. ## FROM THE DAY WE GOT MARRIED, THERE WERE SIGNS OF A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP **Anne:** After interviewing over 200 women and hearing their stories. I’m pretty good at knowing what happened. I think in this situation, he’s having an affair and she breaks up with him. He’s feeling bummed about it. He might say out loud to you, I decided I want to be with you. **Iris:** Mm hmm **Anne:** You don’t have the context of the affair, of him breaking up with her. So this really weird out of the blue statement, “I’ve decided I want to be married to you.” When he’s been married to you for seven years is odd. It also feels like a relief, “Oh, maybe he just didn’t want to be married to me before, and now he’s choosing me.” But you don’t realize what a weird out of place thing that is, because he makes you feel better in that moment. I don’t know if that rings true to you, but it seems that would be the order of events that would precipitate out of the blue, telling you, “Oh, I’m choosing you now.” **Iris:** Yeah, it didn’t make me feel better, because from the day we got married, he was horrible. it was awful. **Anne:** So you’re like, great. Now this awful person really wants to be married to me. **Iris:** It felt like a lie. Now that I understand how Chuck works, like there was something he wanted, he didn’t really love me. Somebody who really loved me and realized they were wrong would’ve not said that. I think they would’ve said, ” I’ve been horrible. I can see why you wouldn’t even want to be married to me, but I realized I really want to be married to you. They would’ve said something to try to heal that. **Anne:** Some effort to repair. ## SEEING THE PATTERNS AND SIGNS OF A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP **Anne:** Instead it was more signs of a toxic relationship. **Iris:** I think so. And I think that’s why it felt awful. Because he manipulated me. Which I don’t think I could verbalize at that time, but he manipulated again. **Anne:** Were you about to leave at that time? Was there anything about you that was different? **Iris:** He knew that I was unhappy, but he was abusive all of the time, yeah. **Anne:** Did you ever find out about explicit media use? **Iris:** He told me, in hindsight, he’d invited a single woman that he’d never met to our wedding. Which was weird. It was a last minute thing, and I feel like she was probably a backup. **Anne:** You’ve said three stories now that sound exactly like other stories. I have heard this before. Your story includes all the classic, down to the detail. **Iris:** Wow **Anne:** Of inviting someone else to the wedding. **Iris:** The Chuckness of it. **Anne:** You got a winner. **Iris:** He’s a doozy. He told me later that he didn’t actually want to get married. Then when I look at inviting this woman to the wedding, he didn’t admit that for many years. But when he did, I was like, oh, so she must have been the escape hatch. If he didn’t go through with marrying me, he would’ve had someone in the wings. ## FEELING HELPLESS **Iris:** I suspect he continues to use porn. He is in cybersecurity, and he always had three computers in his office. So I wonder if one of those he used. I don’t know. I’ve always been curious about what that was. I don’t think I was as tuned into that until I was leaving the marriage. And then there wasn’t much that I had access to. There wasn’t anybody that seemed to have that language who I could talk to. I just felt really helpless, and he was very manipulative and very controlling, the love bombing, he is very good at. The other part was that I was super reactive at that point. So I felt very guilty about my responses to his behavior. Even though it was less intense and further apart. But the reality is that those first seven years, in the bedroom, total coercion, marital rape, and everything now that I have words for, had happened. By that point, like there was very little he had to do to make me comply, to try to stay out of his way. I would try to have a separate life, while maintaining that Christian marriage appearance. It took me a long time to see these as signs of a toxic relationship. **Anne:** We would probably call it like survival mode. You are trying to survive and that’s why a lot of people use the word survivor when they talk about abuse victims, because every day you’re just trying to survive. ## WHY GETTING HELP FEELS SO SCARY AT FIRST **Iris:** Yeah, daily. Navigate all of the things that are happening that just don’t make any sense. And I don’t have the words for. I think during the pandemic, I started to see your Instagrams. And it was like, oh, that’s what’s happening, those are the words. That’s what this is. And beginning to be able to label things and feel like I’m not alone. Then, wanting to join group, but then being afraid. What if it doesn’t help, I don’t want Chuck to know I’m joining? Just feeling do I really want to do that? because I felt like if I go through that door, I can’t go back. **Anne:** Can we talk about that for a minute? because a lot of women have told me that. I followed you on Instagram, or I listened to the podcast, and I didn’t start attending group sessions because I knew it would change everything. What is it about BTR that is different in that way? It’s different than maybe therapy or something. Is it because you’re going to finally get help to look at it. Seeing the signs of a toxic relationship can be scary at first. **Iris:** This can make me cry. I think, because no one had helped. So I think there was an element of, I could try this and probably it’s still not going to help. By that point, looking for help for so long and thinking, I don’t know that anything will help. then being so vulnerable and beaten down. I think there’s a sense of like, does anybody really want to help me? Do I deserve help? because it certainly seems like it’s my fault. So being very afraid to join a group. Like it’s terrifying the first day. ## BTR FELT LIKE AN ANSWER TO PRAYER **Anne:** Once you did attend a group session? Were you surprised at what happened? **Iris:** Yeah, the first day I joined, you hear that zoom beep and you are in group and feeling so afraid. But I was so welcome. it was like I could take a breath, even though really I was crying so hard. Hearing everybody talk, hearing the coaches talk, feeling like the words made sense. I didn’t share that first time, but just crying afterwards. Like there’s somewhere that gets this. There’s somewhere where there are other women who understand this. I’ve never met anybody who knows what’s happening to me. In my story, something that’s amazing was that when my daughter was a baby, there was this show on daytime TV called *Starting Over House.* It was a reality show for women to go to this house and start over. They had two coaches, and I remember watching these women go, and they had all different kinds of problems that they were trying to grow from or whatever. All I wanted was to take my baby and join that house. It was a reality show. I’m sure it would not have been really super helpful. But I just wanted to have people love on me and help me figure out my marriage. That’s all I wanted. So when I came to [Betrayal Trauma Recovery group](/group/), I’m not kidding you, two of the coaches looked like those two coaches on that show. It just felt like it was a prayer answer. ## HIS ANGER WAS THERE ALL THE TIME **Iris:** So Sharon and Renee, two coaches loved on me and made me feel like I wasn’t crazy. And helped me to slowly unravel what had been happening and what had happened to me, and find my voice. I joined in the spring, I was already starting to take steps in my marriage to not engage with Chuck. By July, he was angry with me all of the time. Which I’ll come back to in just a minute. But , before I had joined, he had done some really angry driving in the car. He’d been angry one day when I had locked the door to the master bedroom, because I like to pray and meditate. And then I had gotten in the shower without unlocking it. Because I just want privacy from two kids, a dog and a Chuck. He banged on the door for as long as I was in the shower, and I could hardly hear him, but it scared the pants off of my kids. I felt like I didn’t know what to do. When I joined group, I finally started to have some strategies and observe him. Sometimes I forget all the things that happened. Right before I joined in February, he bought a new car and asked for money from his father. Then he came to me and said, “I didn’t spend all the money on the car. I saved some, so either you can go to marriage therapy with me.”, which he’d been threatening, and I didn’t want to go to marriage therapy with him because we’d been many, many times. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## GROUP HELPED ME SEE THE SIGNS OF A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP **Iris:** He said, “Either you go to marriage therapy with me, and I’ll buy a car for our daughter, or I’m going to divorce you. Not long after that, I ended up joining group. Then he said, “I used that money to file for divorce. I hired an attorney, and how do you want me to serve you your papers?” At that point, I had enough skill to say you can have me served, thank you. And it was super calm. And then I actually jumped in group and was able to just process. One of the things that was so amazing was that everything happening to me in real time, I could then go in a group, get support, be in my closet, my car, or at the library. The more I went towards health and boundaries, the angrier he got. So he actually continued to ask me for two months how I wanted my divorce papers. I can see how [divorce and emotional abuse](/divorce-and-emotional-abuse/) were intertwined, he was using the threat of divorce to try to control me. I would say, “You can have me served.” And he would say, I don’t want to pay $400. He did that until I got a paper in the mail and I thought that I was being served. I didn’t think I could be served in the mail, which you can’t in my state, but it was actually that they were going to kick it out of the system. I took that paper to an attorney, because I had been interviewing attorneys. That kicked off the divorce process. Because I was served. **Anne:** That whole time he is asking, “How do you want to be served? And you’re like, “Just serve me.” ## DEALING WITH CONTROL WHEN HE FILED FOR DIVORCE **Anne:** He’s trying to get you to do something to stop the divorce. He threatens you—*if you don’t toe the line, I’ll divorce you*. When you’re like, okay, go ahead and divorce me, then he’s escalating. Using all the tricks and signs of a toxic relationship that worked before. He reminds me of my ex, who said that. Then he didn’t file. Because he thought that would instigate me repairing. Or me doing the thing I was supposed to do. And when I didn’t do it, I don’t think he wanted to file for divorce. It’s just that he couldn’t figure out how to control me anymore. He was like, well, I guess I have to make these things happen. And it sounds the same in this scenario, where he’s trying to get you to do something. Because a normal person, if they’re like, how do you want me to serve you? And you say, oh, just serve me. They’d be like, okay. And they would serve you. **Iris:** Right, it was control. I was so thankful I could go back in group and have the framework, putting my lab coat on, doing one step at a time. Getting shored up so that I wouldn’t be bowled over by his behavior. I finally hired an attorney, and my attorney notified his attorney. Chuck came to me and said, “Well, that’s not fair. You didn’t tell me you had an attorney. And now we both have to decide to dismiss the divorce. I can’t just decide myself.” **Anne:** Like not to get divorced? After he’s filed, he’s like, wait. Now that you’ve responded to me serving you with divorce papers, we actually have to get divorced. **Iris:** Right. **Anne:** That sounds like my Chuck too. ## INDIVIDUAL SESSIONS HELPED ME GET READY FOR EACH BIG BATTLE **Iris:** Really, it’s like they’re all going by the same playbook. I think realizing that these are all the signs of a toxic relationship was huge. And it allowed me to understand that my job was to be strategic. Chuck does a lot of stupid as a strategy. That attorney he hired in July, by the time our status conference was in October, he’d used all of his retainer. Which was $5,000, and nothing had happened yet. Because he is a Chuck and likes to call his attorney to talk. So then right after the status conference, he fired the attorney and then went pro se for a while. I was so thankful that I had [BTR, that I could do group](/group/). I could do the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery individual sessions](/individual/) to get ready for each big barrier or battle with him, so that I went in calm and focused. It really allowed me, in my divorce process to understand that this was the best thing for me. Even though he was trying to control me. It was finally the door out. And he kept coming back to me and asking, “Do you really want a divorce?” And I would say, “You could move out.” But he never would. One of the other things was that understanding that there was going to be so much out of my control and really focusing on what was in my control. In my coaching sessions with Renee and with Sharon, being able to determine what my top priorities were. My priorities weren’t numbers. My priorities were big picture. And then I said, these are the things that are most important and this is what I want to work towards. And it helped me. I feel like things worked out well for me. ## WE SETTLED AN HOUR BEFORE COURT **Iris**: So having enough money to restart and go back to school. Having stability for my kids, not selling the house immediately so that my daughter could finish high school. Like those were the big picture things. And because Chuck just wants to fight, it was the 11th hour literally. He hired an attorney again, just weeks before our divorce was final. But we ended up settling like an hour before court. I was able just to hang on, to understand it was going to be like that no matter what I did. Like I didn’t have any control over him, and I really got up that morning not knowing what was going to happen. And being at peace in that, and that I was doing all the things that I needed to do, and to let go of that so that I wasn’t in a battle with him. That was incredibly powerful. Hard but powerful. So it’s been final for two years. And the post separation abuse continues, and BTR’s been incredibly helpful in that. I was able to stay in our marital home for a year till our daughter graduated, and then last year that sold. So I moved out and things just lined up. In part because he was so disorganized. I think that worked out in my favor. And I’m now in school finishing a post Master’s certificate in school counseling. And I got hired last fall as a school counselor. So I’m working full-time as a school counselor while finishing my certificate. Just having somewhere to work out the technical stuff and then the emotional stuff, to understand how to be strategic. ## RESTARTING MY LIFE **Iris:** Because I could stay in that place rather than be in his blender. Which is what it was for 18 years. I have been able to restart my life and feel so grateful and fortunate. That I’ve had the support, and he continues to be abusive. And my daughter now is 19 and my son is 17. And so being able to talk about that and how he behaves helped me. I know that at some point, I won’t have to interact with him as much. Or at all once my kids are bigger. But because of the type of abuser he is, because of the types of things he did to me, I know that I am at greater risk of him being dangerous to me physically. And so being able to unpack that, but also, understanding that I have a right to safety and that I can take steps to do that and not feel bad about it. He’s much sneakier now. He’s incredibly angry with me and feels like the divorce was unfair. Because his goal is control, he can’t control me anymore, I think is one reason why he’s angry. It is palpable when I’m around him. He seethes at me. Other people may not be able to see it because he’ll mask it until there’s nobody around. But I think it has been invaluable to me to have a community where I can process that and then take steps to be safe from all the signs of a toxic relationship. When I finally blocked him, which was scary to do, because we have two kids. And that was easier to be able to text and call. It was just another vector for him to get to me. ## BLOCKING HIM FELT SO EMPOWERING **Iris:** So blocking him and doing email only. It felt so empowering to make that decision and be able to unpack that in group and also get the support of “Yay, you finally blocked him.” Like I’d been talking about it for so long. And trying to figure out the signs of a toxic relationship, There are the big steps to leave abuse and there are smaller ones too. Sometimes it’s the little ones that felt really hard. Especially because then my kids would know that I blocked him. Moving away from abuse is hard. I left the house today because I have somebody cleaning my house, which I started hiring somebody. So that I can do all that I’m doing. because I’ve been in school and working full-time and parenting two teens, and it feels so empowering. When they walked in today, I was thinking, because I was coming to talk to you and I was like, they’re helping me leave abuse. And I can say that to you. I think you know that. But he was abusive with cleaning. He would wake me. He likes things clean. He’d wake the kids cleaning and it’s very controlling. But to have a clean house and not be abused, it’s hard to express. This is my safe space, and I get to decide how it gets clean. I get to decide how to spend my money. I get to make choices now that I couldn’t make before. I’m just so incredibly grateful that BTR, I can make choices and know that I can. Thank you. ## LEARNING THE STRATEGIES IS INVALUABLE **Anne:** You are so brave and so strong. Look at you. You’ve got a good job. You have enough money to be able to hire someone to help clean your house, and the lack of guilt. Because some people have the money, but they’re like, I still can’t. I should be able to, no, like look at all the amazing things that you’ve accomplished. When it comes to divorce, if people ask me my situation, I say I am proudly divorced. I am so happy divorced. And I also say things like abuse doesn’t work out for a lot of people, but it worked out so well for me. Because everything that I have gained from learning about the signs of a toxic relationship and the strategies of protecting myself, has been invaluable. Like our confidence just grows day by day. That little voice in our heads and that little like charge that feels like I’m doing something wrong or I can’t do this or I can’t do that just starts to fade away. And life feels so free and wonderful. I’m so happy for you. It’s wonderful. Good job. **Iris:** Thank you, thank you for starting BTR and your podcasts were such a beacon for me too. Before I started group of these voices saying, “You’re not alone, you’re not crazy.” Listening to your voice, I still probably need to hear that a lot, because he makes me feel crazy. So thank you. **Anne:** Well, thank you, without women like you who listen and come and use our services, we wouldn’t be here. So thank you. Our services are incredible. Our team is incredible. It’s such a safe place. ## THE DIFFERENCE WITH BTR SERVICES **Anne:** I’ve been thinking a lot about the difference between BTR and the difference in our services is that it’s so real. You really have women you can see who know your story. You can talk to them every single day in person . And they’re never going to blame you or judge you. It’s never going to be that you made some kind of soul contract, like the weird stuff that you might hear from people who somehow try to blame you. I’m like, there’s no reason to ever say any of it had anything to do with you. because you were surviving the best you could the whole time, and you were going for help, and no one gave you the right information. And none of that has anything to do with you. They are helping you deal with the signs of a toxic relationship. That’s the crazy thing about abuse. You’re doing every single thing right and you still can’t get the right information. Despite you trying to get it for years. Some people don’t believe it, because they can’t imagine that would happen. But it happens every day with so many women all over the world. Anyway, thank you for your support of BTR. **Iris:** It is really such a privilege to be in this community. I felt, loved on and prayed for fiercely. ## BTR GIVES US THE STRATEGIES THAT WE NEED **Iris:** I remember when I first started. I thought they’re giving us the weapons that we need to fight the battle. Almost under the cover of darkness. They sort of come into our homes, our cars, our closets, and give us the weapons we need to fight the evil that is happening to all of us. Like all of a sudden realizing the support, but also the education that BTR does, is invaluable, to help us recognize and deal with the signs of a toxic relationship. I could get out of my reactive brain and really start to think, “Oh, this is what’s happening. Okay, this is what I can do. Chuck is doing this. This is what I’ve always done, but I don’t have to do that. I can do this.” It changed everything. **Anne:** Well, I am so glad, thank you so much, Iris, for taking the time to share your story with me today. **Iris:** Thank you. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Here's What to Know Before "Affordable Relationship Counseling Near Me"](https://www.btr.org/affordable-relationship-counseling-near-me/) **Published:** June 30, 2026 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Searching for “affordable relationship counseling near me,” know this first **Content:** If you’ve searched for “affordable relationship counseling near me,” it’s important to know these five things before you schedule an appointment. ## FIVE THINGS TO KNOW BEFORE SCHEDULING AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME ### 1. A RELATIONSHIP COUNSELOR PROBABLY WON’T TELL YOU THEY CAN’T HELP YOU Most relationship therapists genuinely want to help, and they believe they have the right training and tools to help you. If helping couples overcome issues is their business and livelihood, it’s natural they don’t want to turn people away. However, many relationship counselors don’t really understand how emotional abuse works and how to screen for it. No matter what they do to help you, it will not help, and that lack of clarity can keep you in harm’s way longer, which benefits the counselor and the abuser…not you. So it’s really important to learn about emotional abuse first. ### 2. A RELATIONSHIP COUNSELOR WON’T TAKE SIDES, EVEN IF ONLY ONE PERSON IS THE PROBLEM A core part of relationship counseling ethics is that the counselor is not supposed to take sides. And that makes sense. But if your husband is abusive then it’s unethical to treat this as a couple problem when it’s not. Even if the therapist says, “This is emotional abuse and I can still help you.” That’s not a thing. Because if he’s lying, he’s going to use those couple sessions to continue to lie and manipulate. ### 3. TALK THERAPY WON’T HELP IF HE HAS A HISTORY OF LYING OR MANIPULATION If your husband is lying, deflecting, or rewriting reality then, therapy is just gonna be more of that. There’s no way to convince somebody not to lie and manipulate, and you won’t know they’re doing it. Stay to the end—I’ll show you what the women in our community say they wish they’d known sooner. ### 4. MANY, MANY WOMEN HAVE BEEN HARMED BY “AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME” After more than a decade of doing this work and hearing from hundreds of women who started by searching **“affordable relationship counseling near me”** or were referred by a friend, a clear pattern shows up. Many, many women have been extremely harmed by couples therapists who did not know that they witnessed emotional abuse inside their offices. In some cases, what the women shared in sessions was later used against them at home or in court. ### 5. PROGRESS CAN BE MEASURED BY YOUR FEELINGS, NOT BY HIS CHANGED BEHAVIOR Therapists rely on what they’re witnessing inside of that session. So if your husband says he’s improving, if he says he gets it, if he says he’s sorry, then the therapist is like, “Look, he’s sorry.” They can’t witness his behavior over time, like you do at home. So you know more about this than they do, and you can trust your instincts about it. To find out if your husband is using any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take my free [emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). In this interview, Aliya shares what it looked like when the “expert” she trusted blurred lines in ways that felt increasingly difficult to make sense of. ## TRANSCRIPT: ONE WOMAN’S STORY OF UNETHICAL AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME **Anne:** We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Aliya. A so-called domestic abuse expert exploited her. Welcome, Aliya. **Aliya:** Thank you. **Anne:** Let’s start with how you met him. **Aliya:** I met him online through his network, taking classes and such. After I took a couple of classes with him, I started splitting time with him or co-counseling with him. Which was designed to help people discharge emotion. So if you have stuck trauma or PTSD experiences, you can get with a co-counselor and listen to each other, and hopefully discharge all that stuck trauma by crying, laughing, screaming or trembling. **Anne:** Were you paying for his services? **Aliya:** There was no payment. No, not at all. In fact, the attitude was, “I am doing you a favor. You’re the special chosen one. You get to help me. Everybody would love to be with me, but I chose you.” **Anne:** Oh, so he chose you to be his client? But you didn’t have to pay him and you were special, and so you also got to work for him. ## HE SAID, “I’M THE BEST CO-COUNSELOR HE HAS EVER HAD” **Aliya:** At first, I was co-counseling with him as though he were a counselor, but I was also taking turns as the “counselor”. Ultimately, I ended up moving to the state where he lives. There were supposed to be a lot of in-person events. Started helping him teach these classes and do administrative tasks and things like that, in addition to now co-counseling in person. And that’s where things got a little weird for me. **Anne:** So there’s a double relationship happening here where you’re working for him, but he’s also your counselor in this arrangement. **Aliya:** Exactly. **Anne:** In therapeutic circles, this is called a dual relationship. It’s unethical. It’s against the therapeutic ethics rules and is something people need to know before they search for affordable relationship counseling near me. But in his case, he’s not a therapist. This [marriage therapy isn’t working](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/x8KHlYyxJjQ). Can you talk about how like it first felt? **Aliya:** Sure, it felt great at first. Here’s this guy with all this knowledge and expertise, and he’s flattering me. He’s doing the love bombing thing, although we’re not in a romantic relationship. He is telling me how smart I am, and how inspiring it is to know me and all those kind of things. I’m just wonderful and can do no wrong. And I’m the best co-counselor he has ever had and all that. He would reach out and touch my hair and tell me how great my hair looks, and say, “Any excuse to come over and see you.” When he would come over to work on administrative stuff. So there were some double messages. “My life is so much better now that you’re in it,” things like that. ## HE STARTED CROSSING MORE ETHICAL BOUNDARIES **Aliya:** It felt very personal. He was constantly flattering me and complimenting me. A male friend had to point this out to me. “When was the last time I reached out and casually touched a man’s hair? Never.” And if I did that to him. He would’ve been offended, because now I crossed a boundary. But it was okay for him to do that to me. And then it got really hairy for me, because we started cuddling. We were on the couch together a lot and I was soaking up all this affection and warmth, and that worked on me emotionally. **Anne:** I am so, so sorry. He’s the expert, preying on vulnerable women. To hear that he’s cuddling people, that he’s doing pseudo professional coaching slash therapy. It sounds like a mess. I am so sorry. This is definitely affordable relationship counseling near me gone wrong. There were lots of [signs of an abusive therapist](/abusive-therapist/) in this situation. **Aliya:** When things took a turn, it was subtle at first. He used a few subtle put downs, and then not show up on time or cancel. **Anne:** Just for our listeners, so that they can hear what maybe a subtle put down might sound like, can you think of any examples? **Aliya:** The first one that came to mind, we served on a committee with one other person. She was on Zoom, and we were here in my house. and I said, “I’m getting milk to put in my tea.” I used Muscle Milk. He gave this disgusted look and went. “Well, is it even milk?” Just things like that. Why are you sitting over there instead of over here with us? I mean, things of no consequence whatsoever. But he felt the need to say something. ## I COULD FEEL THE SHIFT IN AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME **Aliya:** One time when I said something to him, he got very distracted and started looking at his phone and doing all kinds of things that typically abusive men would do. That he had never done before. So I could feel it shifting a little bit at that point. I was still co-counseling with him, and we co-counselled just about every single Friday. I helped him teach classes, helped him do his calendar and plan for the future, and maybe do a retreat. There was supposed to be a retreat, twice a year. I think there was one retreat in two years. So none of it was really panning out. There was not a single in-person event for two years. That was the administrative work. But during sessions, we would typically take 45 minutes each and take turns talking. And there’s a no advice rule, so you don’t give anybody any advice. But he would encourage me to get in touch with the pain, trauma and fear. And it could get pretty intense at times. I felt like he was getting bored with me. This affordable relationship counseling near me wasn’t feeling good. ## EVERYONE IN HIS ORGANIZATION IS VOLUNTEER **Anne:** How soon did you see that his actions and his words didn’t match? **Aliya:** He maintained his facade for maybe five or six months. And then it was, “Oh, I’m busy. Oh, I’m going to be late. Oh, I have to cancel, et cetera.” There was a time when the other person on this administrative committee with me, we were meeting every week supposedly. But he canceled at least half the time. And she said, “Why don’t we just meet once a month? Why don’t we schedule it differently?” And he got angry about that. He wanted us to be available every single Tuesday. In case he felt like showing up. **Anne:** So when he starts to be like, maybe you should get another co-counselor. So you would start paying this new co-counselor, or is everything in his organization volunteer and nobody pays anybody anything? **Aliya:** It’s all volunteer. It’s peer counseling. You’re doing it together. Everybody’s supposed to be equal. And no power hierarchy, although that’s a false premise. Because he’s somewhat of a well-known guru, and lots of women look up to him. He said he wanted a different co-counselor. Like he was done with me. He was gonna look for somebody else. But he didn’t actually address that properly. In fact, we did not stop co-counseling for at least another year after that. ## IT’S A LITTLE CULTISH **Anne:** It sounds very wishy-washy. If someone isn’t paying for services, there’s no professional relationship in terms of the exchange of a fee is it like a church? What’s going on? **Aliya:** And it’s not well defined. That is the problem. I mean, you’re paying with your time, so you get 45 minutes. I get 45 minutes. If we have to cut it short on your turn, then I owe you the remainder of the time. Everything has to be equal in that regard. And nobody gets to dominate the conversation. Nobody gets one way time unless you agree to make it up later. It’s not well-defined. **Anne:** Which is hard because if you’re not paying them, how would you define that relationship? It kind of sounds a little bit commune-ish. Did it feel like that? **Aliya:** It’s a little cultish. And I think that’s his desire is to have a commune, really. **Anne:** Oh really? **Aliya:** Yeah. **Anne:** Living in a place where someone else made me dinner, but they didn’t necessarily live in my house. Doesn’t that sound good to everyone in some ways? ## WHEN AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME IS CENTERED ON THE “EXPERT” **Anne:** So because you were in administration, was it working for other people? I’m assuming most of the “co counselors” volunteering in this network were women co-counseling other women. Was he the only man? **Aliya:** There were two or three other men. One who was pretty consistent, because he was doing all the IT stuff for free also. And there was one other guy that just came and went. But yes, 99% of the participants are women. He is a harem builder. **Anne:** If you didn’t have him as your co-counselor and you had another woman. Was it working out for everybody else? Was this affordable relationship counseling near me benefitting others? **Aliya:** I did co-counsel with a woman for a while, and yeah, I think some people were benefiting from it, but at the same time have to understand, these are just lay people. It’s not necessarily safe for people. And so it’s a little iffy, And I think sometimes it just devolves. **Anne:** From your experience, what warnings would you have for people when they’re looking for a resource? **Aliya:** Pay attention to your gut, of course. There were moments along the way when I thought to myself, this is not gonna end well for me, because I noticed him treating other people poorly. ## HE’S ROLE PLAYING **Aliya:** I just blindly trusted this person. His written work was so impressive. It had helped me so much that I couldn’t believe he could be a perpetrator. **Anne:** Yeah, I’ve recommended books in the past. Then we heard back from women who went to that author for services. It surprised me because their services didn’t seem in line with what was on the page. And of course, it is hard for me because this is what I do. And I’m not perfect. So people could meet me and be like, oh my word, she was not as nice as I thought or something. Maybe ’cause I had a stomach ache. You never know. There’s that saying, “Never meet your heroes.” Because the written word is edited, it’s different than meeting someone in person. I guess what I’m asking is in meeting him, was it a feeling like he didn’t understand his own stuff? Does that make sense? Did it feel like there was a disconnect that he was play acting what he knew was the right answer? **Aliya:** That’s a good description actually: he’s role playing. So he can be very empathic and know all the right things to say. But there’s no depth to it. As long as it doesn’t require anything of him, he can be kind and supportive because he doesn’t have a dog in the fight. It’s only when there’s a conflict with him that his true colors come out. ## MAKE SURE BOUNDARIES ARE CLEARLY DEFINED **Anne:** Well, and if you’re in a commune, I’ll call it that. There’s gonna be some conflicts. If you don’t set it up as like, “Hey, I am a professional. You’ll be paying me for my services. This is how long our sessions will be.” That’s how it’s set up here at BTR. There’s no one with a dual relationship. Accredited coaching schools train our coaches. Plus divorce coaching certifications and all those certifications that our coaches have here. They are the [best emotional support groups online](/emotional-abuse-support-groups-online/). There’s some clearly defined boundaries. So if someone’s setting it up as a friendship or a relationship of equals, that’s a different situation. That means he’s not in charge. It means he can’t call the shots because of the way it’s set up. Even though it’s affordable relationship counseling near me. **Aliya:** Right, theoretically. Yes, we’re all supposed to be equals. **Anne:** I think this is a lesson for women in terms of their spouses. Is that you can go to couple therapy with your spouse. You can get them all the right information. They can regurgitate the right information back to you, supposedly understand all of the principles of abuse. They could understand the principles of healthy living. But then not actually believe it or use it. I think that’s surprising to people. ## AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME: HE’S DOING IT ON PURPOSE **Anne:** Like with my ex, he went to therapy for a long time. He could talk about addiction recovery, recite the 12 steps. He knew it very, very well. And really acted like he was in recovery. So the difference between knowing something and either believing it or using it or having it in Christian terms, sort of written upon your heart. Sometimes Christians use that terminology. I think it’s surprising to people that somebody can live in those two worlds. Especially, like a lot of Christians come to BTR for help, knowing that their husband reads the Bible, goes to church or purports to be a Christian. He knows everything, but he doesn’t do it. It’s shocking. **Aliya:** It is shocking to realize that he wrote that book, which is so well known and so helpful. I still say the book helped me tremendously, even though I now consider it more of an autobiography. Yeah, it’s a weird disconnect. That if you have a conflict with him, he starts demonstrating all the abusive tactics he wrote about. And I even think it’s a little more sinister than that. I think he knows what he’s doing, and he’s doing it on purpose because he enjoys it. So he gets women to come to him, surround him, help him with his work, engage with him, display all their emotional wounds to him, and then it’s fun for him to do the big discard. Yeah, very hurtful. ## WHEN THE “EXPERT” DOESN’T VALUE PEOPLE **Aliya:** I talked to five or six other women who have worked with him and not been paid. Or maybe gone out with him a couple of times and had it end badly. He doesn’t value people. People are interchangeable to him. It could be me one day and somebody else the next day. That’s what I didn’t understand. How can you sit and open your heart to somebody, and really to them, you’re still a nobody? He could just replace you. I noticed too late that in the process of co-counseling with him for two years, my mental health was declining. I was starting to feel more depressed. And I was wondering, is he gonna cancel this week or is he not? I was new in the area and he wouldn’t introduce me to anybody, because that was against his rules because he was absolutely adamant that we could not be friends. So I had to listen to him talk about his friends and activities around here, and though we have things in common, he would never introduce me to anybody. So I felt dependent on him, and he knew it and encouraged it. I was trying to run it for him. Me and another woman were trying to run it. He just had other things he would prefer to do. But most people in the organization were there to see him, because he’s the famous author with a head full of knowledge. So it died down quite a bit. And then we had a big fracture, he and I did. Because I started to feel suicidal. ## HE WASN’T THERE FOR ME WHEN I REALLY NEEDED HIM **Aliya:** He offered me a safe word to use in case I was really distraught. I could text him this word and he would know, and he would respond, and we could split some time together. Well, a few months went by and I used the word. He said he didn’t feel well and needed to cancel. That was for Friday. So I said, okay. He said, “We’ll do it Monday”. And I said, okay. Then on Saturday he changed the time for Monday. And then on Monday he told me he was feeling a lot better. So he would get back to me after he went and hung out with his friends. And he would let me know if he was available. And at that point I said, “No, thank you. I’m good. I don’t need to talk to you.” **Anne:** That’s very strange, that someone would not be like, okay, here’s the suicide hotline or something. Just putting you off rather than an actual suicide service. Or even say to them, “You know what? Suicide is not my area of expertise. I’m worried about you. I hope you can find the resources you need.” Even a frank, “This is outside of my scope of knowledge.” At BTR, because of confidentiality reasons, we don’t ever call any hotlines for anyone. But we would encourage someone to do it themselves. Like, you might be searching for affordable relationship counseling near me and need something outside of our scope. But to be like, I’m the end all, be all for everything. I’m so sorry, that’s wrong. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME: I THINK IT WAS A SETUP **Aliya:** I think it was a setup in a way. It was his idea to have a safe word, and then he didn’t honor it. That caused a rift in the organization, because I was front and center in the organization. I answered his emails, helped him with his classes, and started groups for him. The one woman on the committee with me said, “Oh my gosh, wolf in sheep’s clothing. This is awful. I can’t believe it. I’m so sorry.” And the people started to think, well, where’s Aliya? What happened to her? Why isn’t she here? People wondered what happened. And I didn’t give a lot of details. I just said, “It’s not working for me. I’m moving on.” I thought it would be easy for him to generate a whole new group. And he has, they’ve started new classes. It sounds like they’ve had a retreat. The other woman on the committee with me called me and said, “Where are you?” Why aren’t you here?” And I was crying. I told her. She says to me, “Listen, I can’t fault him for something I didn’t witness.” I just said, “Do you really think he would behave that way if there were a witness?” And yeah, she didn’t respond to that. He’s so skilled at manipulating people. She’s a professional in some capacity who works with abused women too. It was horrifying. The betrayal in this affordable relationship counseling near me was amazing. So now she’s taken over most of my positions with him. The part that adds insult to injury is that he flipped the whole thing, blamed the whole thing on me. ## IT’S NOT MY FAULT HE’S NOT TRUSTWORTHY **Aliya:** I ended up feeling like it was my fault. Then I started to realize, wait a minute, this guy does not practice what he preaches at all. I just thought I could trust him. Like if you can trust anybody, it would be him, you know? And he knows that. Yeah, it’s not my fault that he is not trustworthy. He’s extremely good at his game. He’s so good. **Anne:** I’ve had other women who have been abused by therapists come on to talk about it. And the patterns are they’re not paying them or they’re not requesting pay. The sessions go longer than they’re supposed to. Physical contact, contact outside the session. It’s become like your social network. It kind of has a feeling of a church. ‘Cause it’s not like you’re paying and you’re all working together instead of professional services in this type of affordable relationship counseling near me. So those are some of the red flags. **Aliya:** Yeah, I agree. We did plenty of that, like emailing, texting, and things. So it wasn’t clean in any way. There were no well-defined parameters. I couldn’t tell, are we friends? Are we just working together? I’m working for him, but he is not paying me. We’re counseling together as peers, but I’m making myself vulnerable. He’s really not. That slowly dawned on me that he would stick to the same surface topics over and over again. ## HE’S A BAD ACTOR **Aliya:** Although he fancies himself an actor. If he wanted to cry, he got a photograph and sat down and looked at it and made himself cry. All just really weird stuff. Snuggling on the couch, even lying down on the couch a couple of times. Which was really strange for me, because I have a history of childhood sexual abuse, and it is bringing up a lot of stuff for me. But he takes it as, “Well, you know, it’s easier to cry it all out if you’re being held.” Very confusing, yeah. Like I know one woman who worked with him collaborated with him. So she asked him out, and he flew into a rage over it. When things go south like they did with me, he’s gonna say one of two things, either. Well, she just couldn’t accept that I wouldn’t socialize with her. He said that about me. **Anne:** This is someone who’s, sorry, I just have to interrupt and say, says someone who will snuggle with you on the couch. **Aliya:** Right. Yeah, and then the other thing that he always says is, “I’m a little concerned about her mental health.” So he said that about me too. He wasn’t really that concerned. **Anne:** He caused your mental health issues. **Aliya:** It was a huge betrayal. Like an arsonist, set a fire, and then run and hide in the bushes and sit and watch when the firetruck comes. ‘Cause he wrote the book, and then he gets everybody to trust him, and then he does what’s in the book. ## AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME: ABUSERS DO NOT LIKE STRUCTURE **Aliya:** Imagine the power he gets out of that, it’s sick. I use the word evil because I didn’t think of another word. It’s really sinister. **Anne:** The whole situation is sinister because of the lack of boundaries and the lack of structure. They do not like structure, because then they can’t do what they want, when they want it. So while it is affordable relationship counseling near me, there’s a huge emotional cost. And they have a hard time with divorce decrees, for example. And they have a hard time with things like [what does the Bible says about divorce](/what-does-the-bible-say-about-divorce/). They want her to follow rules to the T but they don’t mind just doing whatever they want. So having the structure of his organization be so wishy-washy and structureless, he gets to do whatever he wants in whatever way he wants. And if someone isn’t paying to have him be there at a certain time, he can cancel. **Aliya:** Yeah, and he still thought I would do administrative tasks for him after all this happened. **Anne:** I’m so sorry that this happened to you, and especially on top of your own story, which we haven’t talked about, that you went through abuse with your husband and then had this experience on top of it. When your husband is abusing you and you don’t recognize it, and finally you do, and you try to go for help. But it’s another thing when the people that are supposed to help you, it could be a therapist, clergy or abuse specialist, worsen things. You don’t know what is happening. ## THIS BETRAYAL WAS WORSE THAN MY HUSBAND’S **Aliya:** Yeah, they felt so different. Because with my ex-husband, as you said, I didn’t really notice or realize what was happening at first. And then when I did, I made a clean break from him. But this person was touting himself as a champion of women and a great support and totally understands what you’ve been through. And that betrayal felt worse to me, because he totally does understand. He’s written about what it does to women psychologically and emotionally, and how devastating it is. He knows full well what he is doing, and that to me is worse. **Anne:** Well, thank you for coming to talk about your experience with affordable relationship counseling near me. This is really important. I do wanna stress that unsafe resources can come from women, they can come from men. They can come from anyone. In the court system, for example, we have victims who are dealing with super abusive guardian ad litems who are women and men. That’s hard too, realizing that any resource could be unsafe. And then knowing what to look for so that you can find safe support. I think the other part is making sure that if you’re isolated and everyone who has been through abuse is isolated. That you are also creating friendships besides the professional support you’re relying on. So finding a quilting group, a church, or a hiking group, or some outside resource is really important as well. That can keep you grounded and help you heal. Cause I think abuse victims can heal in any way. And they [find their voice after emotional abuse](/find-your-voice-after-emotional-abuse/). ## SAFE CONNECTIONS MATTER **Anne:** But having a friend who cares about you, who you can talk to every day and go for a walk with and go to a movie, is really important. We should not underestimate real life connections with real people who are our friends and family over professional support, over affordable relationship counseling near me. And that’s the hard part. So many people don’t understand abuse. There are so many victims who can’t think of anybody in real life that they trust. I talk about this in the [Living Free Workshop](/livingfree/). If you have no one you can trust, coming to BTR. Going to our [Betrayal Trauma Recovery group sessions](/group/), going to [betrayal trauma individual sessions](/individual/) is great. I think it’s very important that things are defined clearly. That’s something here at BTR we take very seriously. So our group sessions have a hour and a half time limit, and our individual sessions have a 50 minute time limit. Women pay for services. We are all paid. That’s one reason why BTR does not recommend other resources. It’s not that an other resource couldn’t be amazing, it’s just that we don’t actually know what happens behind the scenes. And then also hopefully starting to make friends in your area somehow some way. I know that’s hard and overwhelming, but that’s gonna make a big difference. Being able to have people in real life who are your actual friends to support you. Did you find that after falling out with him, because a lot of your friends were part of the organization, that you were then isolated? **Aliya:** Yep, definitely. ## FINDING A SAFE AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME NETWORK **Aliya:** I lost friends in the organization for sure. But I have also made some friends here, so I’ve got a little network. I’ve only been here two years, so it takes awhile, but I feel like I’m making friends. One of my friends back home called it way before it came to a head, and she said, listen, if you wanna hang in there with him, I still love you. I’m not judging you, but you just need to know it’s not gonna end well for you. And she was right, and she still loves me. She’s not judging me, she’s still my friend. So I actually appreciate honesty like that. **Anne:** We stand with you, having been through it myself with my ex and other exploitative people who have exploited me, been dishonest in other areas of my life. It’s really shocking and hard to realize that there are people like this everywhere, and to know that manipulative people prey on vulnerable people. And so when you’re in this vulnerable state, which is natural for you to be in, learning some safety strategies to navigate that time is important. ## HOW TO MAKE STRATEGIC DECISIONS **Aliya:** That makes total sense. And most of the women that come to that network are just coming out of abusive relationships. So they’re vulnerable. **Anne:** Yeah, the Living Free Workshop, that I wrote, has that built into it. How to determine who’s safe and who isn’t safe. When is affordable relationship counseling near me safe? How to make decisions, so that the decisions you’re making, as you recognize this is abuse, can be strategic as you move forward. So if you’re listening and you’re like, “oh man, I’m worried about that,” then check out the [Living Free Workshop](/livingfree/). Aliya, thank you so much for sharing your story today. **Aliya:** Thank you. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [When Boundaries in Marriage Fail, Here's Why It's Not You](https://www.btr.org/boundaries-in-marriage/) **Published:** July 7, 2026 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** After betrayal, boundaries in marriage are less about what you say and more about what you do to create emotional and psychological stability for yourself. **Content:** When trust has been broken, or when conflict keeps repeating in a relationship, many women begin searching for answers about **boundaries in marriage**. ## WOMEN NEED BOUNDARIES IN MARRIAGE AFTER BROKEN TRUST They’re not looking to control anyone or to escalate the situation. Most are simply trying to create safety. Sometimes the question sounds like: - How do I set boundaries in marriage when my husband is unfaithful? - How do I set boundaries with my ex while we’re co-parenting? - Is it even possible to set boundaries when my husband emotionally abuses me? When everything feels confusing, chaotic, or intimidating, it can be difficult to know where to begin. Anne shares one of the effective emotional safety strategies in her [Clarity After Betrayal Workshop](/clarity/). > “Ask yourself, ‘What is making me feel unsafe? What **action** can I take right now – today – to put proximity between myself and the harm?” > > Anne Blythe, Founder Of BTR.ORG ## SO, HOW DO I SET BOUNDARIES IN MARRIAGE WHEN EVERY TIME I TRY *THINGS JUST GET WORSE*?! Many of the women in the BTR community tried for years to set boundaries, only to experience further harm and discouragement. Often, well-meaning professionals teach boundaries in marriage as: - If/Then Statements - Ultimatums - Statements of desires or values Unfortunately, these forms of communication don’t protect victims of emotional and psychological abuse. Instead, they often expose victims to further gaslighting, manipulation, and humiliation. ## 3 STEPS TO ESTABLISHING EFFECTIVE BOUNDARIES IN MARRIAGE You’ll know that your boundaries in marriage are effective when you’re experiencing greater emotional and psychological safety. So how do you set boundaries in an emotionally abusive relationship? ### STEP 1: IDENTIFY THE CAUSE OF THE HARM The first step in establishing effective safety boundaries in marriage is identifying the actual source of harm. Ask yourself: - Do I feel emotionally safe in my home? - What specifically makes me feel unsafe? - When do I feel the least emotionally safe? - When do I feel the most emotionally safe? If you want to go deeper, take my free [emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). You can’t create safety until you understand what is causing the harm. ### Step 2: SEPARATE YOURSELF FROM THE HARM After identifying the cause, ask yourself: **What action can I take today to separate myself as much as possible from the harm?** This is where true boundaries in marriage differ from what many therapists teach. Safety boundaries are not statements. They are actions. For some women, that action might look like: - Closing a door - Putting in headphones - Blocking a phone number - Limiting communication to email For others, it may mean: - Physical separation - Filing for divorce - Reporting a crime - Creating distance to observe safely The key question is not: *Did I say the right words?* The key question is: **Has this boundary actually separated me from the harm?** ### STEP 3: MEASURE WHETHER THE BOUNDARIES IN MARRIAGE ARE WORKING Effective boundaries in marriage are measurable. Are you experiencing: - Less anxiety? - Less chaos? - More mental clarity? - Physical calm? - Emotional stability? If the answer is yes, your boundary is working. If the harm continues uninterrupted, it may not be a boundary — it may simply be a statement or a threat. Boundaries are not about controlling someone else’s behavior. They are about creating a protective barrier that actually protects you. ### ASK YOURSELF THIS QUESTION After you’ve identified the cause of the harm, ask yourself: *What action can I take today to separate myself as much as possible from the harm?* As Anne shares in this episode, for some women, this means simply closing a door, blocking a phone number, or putting in headphones. For others, it may mean separation, divorce, or reporting a crime. ## TRANSCRIPT: HOW DO I SET BOUNDARIES IN MARRIAGE? WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW **Anne:** It’s just me today. I’m going to talk about boundaries, because so many women are confused about how to set boundaries to be emotionally and psychologically safe. The reason so many women are confused about boundaries is because therapists and other “experts” teach women to set boundaries in a way that does not make sense. They basically say a boundary is stating what you will and won’t accept. And then they’ll victim blame you, and say, “If you haven’t told someone what you will and won’t accept, then it’s your fault.” Even though you already did tell him. So then, because the therapist tells you to, you say the thing you’ve already said. “I will not accept pornography in my home,” or “I will not be lied to,” or “I will not accept your continual emotional abuse.” And the therapist pats you on the back and says, “Good job.” You set a “boundary.” Because the therapist thinks, apparently once you say that, it’s supposed to solve some problems. Then, just to ensure it solves the problems, the therapist will encourage you to add a threat to it. So then, because the therapist is giving her these instructions, a woman will say, “if you use pornography again, then I won’t be intimate with you.” And that’s how they’ll teach you to “set boundaries.” And if that model works for you, shine on, keep using it. But most of our listeners and pretty much all the women who get services here at [Betrayal Trauma Recovery ](https://www.btr.org/)are struggling. Because the way the therapist taught them to set boundaries isn’t working. and they’re wondering, what am I supposed to do? So many victims think they are the problem, because they can’t set boundaries. ## INTRODUCING STRATEGIES FOR CLARITY AND EMOTIONAL SAFETY **Anne:** And I’m like, no, no, no. It’s not you. The way they taught you to set boundaries doesn’t work. So, if you relate, I’m going to teach you the strategy for how to set boundaries in marriage that makes a lot more sense. In the [Clarity After Betrayal Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/), I explain in super duper detail how to do this. And today I’m just going to cover a few basics. So if you’re like, “Oh, this is good. I need more of this” enroll in the Clarity After Betrayal Workshop, where I teach these effective boundaries in a detailed and strategic way. Including examples for how to set effective thought boundaries, action boundaries, communication boundaries, and boundaries when you’re wondering [how to recover after being cheated on](https://www.btr.org/how-to-recover-after-being-cheated-on/). There are so many options. So the examples I share today are just a few of the tons of options you have when it comes to setting effective boundaries. And I outline more examples in the workshop. I’m going to use many metaphors throughout this whole episode to illustrate these points. ## METAPHOR: PROPERTY LINE & TRESPASSING **Anne:** Here’s a metaphor about how a woman would determine how to set boundaries and whether a boundary is effective. You know where your property line is. And your neighbor keeps coming onto your private property without your permission. So you build a fence. But he climbs over the fence. So then you write him a letter and you say, “Please stop climbing over my fence. Don’t enter my property without my permission.” But he keeps doing it. So then you set up a camera, and the camera records him climbing over the fence. And you write another letter and you say, I have evidence that you’re climbing over the fence. Please stop. But he doesn’t. So then you call the police and show them the footage. And they arrest him for trespassing. He makes bail. And that could be the end of it. But he has a good defense attorney, and not even the court system can make him stop. So then you evolve your boundaries more to keep trying to protect yourself from this person. But this guy just won’t stop. And you have had it, and you are ready to completely be done with this chaos in your life. So you decide to move to an apartment with a doorman, that doesn’t have a yard. You show the doorman a picture of what he looks like. You’ll never have to worry, because he won’t get into the building. Because he won’t get past the doorman. That’s how you can know if your boundary is effective. Has your boundary actually separated you from the harm? [![How Do I Set Boundaries in Marriage](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/set-boundaries-in-marriage.webp "Set Boundaries in Marriage")](https://www.btr.org/group/)## HOW DO I SET BOUNDARIES IN MARRIAGE: EMOTIONAL & PSYCHOLOGICAL ABUSE **Anne:** So I want to take you through how this might work with emotional and psychological abuse. Statements like, you cannot treat me this way. I will not allow this in my home, they are just statements. They cannot keep you safe, so they’re not a boundary. With a couple therapists, addiction recovery therapists, or non-BTR coaches, if you’re doing “boundary work.” [Your abusive husband’s therapist](/your-abusive-husbands-therapist/) may be telling you to list things you will and will not tolerate to give him. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) Then along with that list, next to those so-called boundaries, write a threat of what you’re going to do if he does it again. Let’s first talk about that list. It’s okay to list things that he does that make you feel unsafe. But it’s not strategic to give it to him. The [Clarity After Betrayal Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/), gives a detailed explanation with a bunch of reasons why it’s not recommended to give this list to anyone. Not even your husband, not even your abusive husband’s therapist. Although you can share it. Or create it with one of our Betrayal Trauma Recovery coaches, because she’s never going to talk to him. ## THE IMPORTANCE OF EMOTIONAL & PSYCHOLOGICAL SAFETY **Anne:** Having a safe person who was 100% on your side is so important. Because many women, when they come to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, haven’t even thought about their emotional and psychological safety. Which is an important step for sure. The [](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/)[Clarity After Betrayal Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/), will take you through that step-by-step. But that list in itself doesn’t create safety. The whole point is to be emotionally, psychologically, and physically safe, because emotional and psychological abuse feels like a punch to the gut. So how do I set effective boundaries in marriage? So think of it this way. There’s a man with a metaphorical club, and he’s hitting you on the head with this club. And you tell him to stop. He doesn’t stop. Then you tell him again, and he doesn’t. Ask any abuse victim, does his emotional and psychological abuse affect you physically? And they’re like, absolutely. I couldn’t get out of bed. I was so sick to my stomach and couldn’t eat. And I was so stressed that I got migraines. For most women, if they tell their emotionally abusive husband, stop making fun of me. Sometimes he’ll stop doing that thing. But we find that he’ll just do another emotionally abusive thing, something else. He’s like, “Okay, I couldn’t get through that way. I’ll try it a different way.” And then you’re just in the same situation where you’re constantly telling him, “Hey, be a basic, decent human being.” And he keeps finding ways to not meet the lowest bar. ## HOW DO I SET BOUNDARIES IN MARRIAGE: MENTAL & PHYSICAL ACTIONS FOR SAFETY Once you understand the safety issues, you can work from there to determine what actions you’re going to take. They can be mental actions. They can be physical actions. A boundary is something that keeps his abuse at a distance. So he can’t exploit you, oppress you or cause chaos in your life, even though he continues to try. There are many levels of effective boundaries in marriage. I detail a lot in the [Clarity After Betrayal Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). It gives specific directions for “how do I set boundaries in marriage?” But for this episode, let’s take the classic example of blocking someone on your phone. Many women are triggered by text alerts or phone calls. It’s common for a woman who resists abuse and attempts to maintain her dignity. To respond to an abusive text by texting back. I’m not going to talk to you. Please stop texting me. Which still leaves the door open for him to write back and abuse you more. Instead, if you block their number, they can’t call or text you, and you don’t even know that they called or texted. There’s nothing they can do about it. Nothing says I’m not going to talk to you, like blocking them on your phone. And since we’re going for safety, not responding and blocking is the most effective strategy. If you have kids and have to communicate with him, that’s what the workshop is for. ## UNDERSTANDING DIFFERENT LEVELS OF BOUNDARIES IN MARRIAGE **Anne:** If all this seems extreme, if you’re like, whoa. The [Clarity After Betrayal Workshop](https://www.btr.org/clarity/), covers different levels of effective boundaries. It covers mental boundaries to keep your thoughts and emotions safe from his emotional and psychological abuse. So if you’re interested in different types of effective boundaries, the [Clarity After Betrayal Workshop](https://www.btr.org/clarity/) Workshop will take you through how to identify the harm. And then how to determine how do I set boundaries and which boundary will be effective for me in my situation. We want to get you to safety as quickly as possible. So that you can observe from an emotionally safe distance, from a psychologically safe distance. And see what type of character he really has. Because the way the therapists and so-called experts tell you to do it, I think is completely backwards. You don’t have to tell them, “If you use pornography, I won’t be intimate with you.” Because he already did it. He’s currently too unsafe to be with right now. And for your own safety, you don’t need to tell him why you don’t want to be with him. You don’t have to tell him that you feel unsafe. You don’t have to decide beforehand what you’ll do. Functioning, responsible, mature adults don’t need to be told, “If you lie to me, I feel unsafe. And so I’m going to set a boundary.” I hate it when my [husband lies to me about small things](/husband-lies-about-small-things/). Mature adults don’t need that. A functioning adult and mature person would know that when you lie to someone, they’re going to get hurt. Effective boundaries are what you need to feel safe. They’re not what he needs. ## BOUNDARIES IN MARRIAGE HELP YOU TO BE SAFE **Anne:** So if you know what you need to feel emotionally and psychologically safe. You can move towards safety now without babysitting an adult man. Without communicating with an emotional abuser who’s going to weaponize your emotions against you. Women feel empowered when they realize they can take action and create a barrier. When they know how do I set boundaries. Whether emotional, mental, or physical, keep themselves away from the harm. Whether he understands what you’re doing. You don’t have to tell him why you’re doing it and you don’t have to explain it, nothing. You can just make your way to safety. ## METAPHOR: HOW WOULD YOU KEEP YOURSELF SAFE IF SOMEONE HAD EBOLA **Anne:** Let’s say your husband has late stage Ebola. He has blood dripping out of his eyes. He’s coughing up blood. And because you’re resisting Ebola, right? This seems dangerous. You’re like, we need help. Let’s go to couple therapy. So you both get into the car and drive to couple therapy. And the therapist says to you, “Make a list of all the diseases you don’t want to get. Because you can’t expect him to not give you a disease. Unless you’ve communicated that with him.” In the meantime, the therapist is handing your husband Kleenex after Kleenex, so the blood doesn’t drip down your husband’s face and onto the therapist’s couch. And so you write. “I don’t want to get Ebola. I don’t want to get an STD.” You write all the diseases you don’t want to get. Then your therapist says to your husband, “Okay. She doesn’t want Ebola.” As if he didn’t know this before, a functioning adult man should know that no one wants to get Ebola. Apparently, the therapist thinks he’s a total imbecile. Which he’s not, he knows people don’t want to get Ebola. But he’s manipulating the therapist, and the therapist somehow falls for it, as if Chuck has never heard anywhere that people don’t want to get Ebola. The therapist says, okay. She doesn’t want Ebola. So next time you get Ebola, she’s going to, and the therapist pauses and looks at you, like, “What are you going to do?” You think about it and you say, “Oh, okay, if you get Ebola again, I’m not going to have sleep with you.” ## CONTINUING WITH EBOLA METAPHOR **Anne:** The therapist nods and says, “Okay, this will take time to heal from Ebola. But it’s possible. Remember, your husband’s not the enemy. The Ebola is the enemy. I know you can beat this if you love and support each other.” After the therapy appointment, you both get in the car. and drive home. What’s going to happen to you? You’re going to get Ebola. You’ve been in an enclosed space with someone who’s highly contagious. So an effective boundary would be that you never ever are in an enclosed space with someone with Ebola. You’re not going to even drive them to the hospital, because you would be in the same car with them. It’s just too dangerous. You’re going to immediately distance yourself from someone with late stage Ebola. If they want help healing from Ebola, they can call 911 and get themselves to the hospital. All you need to do is keep your distance until he’s 100% better, with absolutely no Ebola symptoms whatsoever. And I’m going to keep on with this metaphor. Let’s pretend you can get Ebola through phone calls and texts, and he knows that. So he’s in the hospital, but he’s texting you and calling you and FaceTiming you. And that’s putting you at risk for Ebola. Which again, he knows, but he doesn’t care. ## CREATING A PROTECTIVE BARRIER THAT ACTUALLY KEEPS YOU SAFE **Anne:** You might be like, if a text comes through, it will have Ebola germs on it. I need to keep myself safe. I am blocking him on my phone. You don’t need to tell him that your goal is not to get Ebola, because that’s obvious. Normal adults know that if they have Ebola, they need to isolate themselves until they have no symptoms. Since he can emotionally and psychologically abuse you through talking to you, phone calls, texts, and communication. So, when you think about boundaries, when anybody says you need boundaries, the effective way to set boundaries is to create a protective barrier that actually keeps you safe from the harm. Like a tornado shelter. You don’t have to tell the tornado that you’re getting in the shelter. You just get in the shelter. Or like a lifeboat in shark infested waters. You don’t have to tell the sharks why you’re getting in the lifeboat. You just get in the lifeboat. All right, enough of the metaphors. ## REAL-LIFE EXAMPLE: WHEN CAROL SET BOUNDARIES IN MARRIAGE **Anne:** Now let’s talk about actual stories that illustrate this, one woman in our community. I’ll call her Carol. Before she found [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/), she was resisting his emotional and psychological abuse and his coercion the best way she knew how. She resisted his abuse by “setting a boundary” that her husband needed to go to pornography addiction recovery therapy or she would move out. He found himself a therapist, but her husband seemed like he was getting worse. Carol again, resisting the abuse, decided to go to one of the appointments so she could explain the true situation to the therapist. When she went, Carol observed that the therapist her husband chose was a young, beautiful woman. Who seemed friendly with her husband. And thought her husband was insightful and mature. She was kind of enamored with him. Carol was super alarmed, so in an effort to resist abuse, she set another “boundary.” She said, “You have to find an addiction recovery therapist, a certified CSAT who is male.” So her husband found himself a male therapist.” She also considered [12 step for wives of addicts](/12-step-for-wives-of-addicts/). But things continued to be bad for Carol. The entire time this was happening, she was exposed to his emotional and psychological abuse. Even though she was resisting abuse and doing the best she could. Those boundaries that she set that he needed to go to therapy. And then the second one that he needed a male therapist didn’t do anything to protect her from his abuse. When she found [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/), she was so traumatized and exhausted. She enrolled in the [Works](https://www.btr.org/clarity/ "Living Free Works")[hop,](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) and started implementing the effective boundary strategies she learned. ## REAL-LIFE EXAMPLE: WHEN OLIVIA SET BOUNDARIES IN MARRIAGE **Anne:** And started to create distance between herself and his emotional and psychological abuse. So she wasn’t subjected to the harm while she observed to see what he was going to do. Another one of our community members, who I’ll call Olivia, was going through a divorce. And with every child exchange her soon to be ex was writing crazy messages, changing up the exchange times, just causing absolute chaos. The strategies laid the foundation for her to know what he was trying to do. And then how to combat that with strategic communication. And then worked with a [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coach](/individual/) to implement these strategies. She knew how to set boundaries, and was able to set effective boundaries so that his chaos couldn’t touch her anymore. It was amazing. ## REAL-LIFE EXAMPLE: WHEN ELISE SET BOUNDARIES IN MARRIAGE **Anne:** Another one of our community members, who I’ll call Elise, attended [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/) when she found out her husband had been lying about his recovery from pornography addiction. He had told her that he was sober. But then she found out that he’d been using pornography almost daily since he started 12 step a year earlier. Because she done the workshop, she knew exactly how to set boundaries. With the help of one of our [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coaches in Individual Sessions](https://www.btr.org/individual/), she processed what had happened, and thought about what actions she could take to actually separate herself from his emotional and psychological abuse without talking to him. In Elise’s case, she decided to gather her kids and her stuff. She got a burner phone, so he couldn’t track her location, and left her phone and went to her mom’s house. She said, “I was finally able to think straight without manipulation, 24/7.” He called my mom and asked if I was there. I told her to tell him the truth. So she said, “Yeah, she’s here, but she doesn’t feel like talking.” She’ll reach out when she feels better. Elise was able to stop [long term affects from emotional abuse from her husband](/long-term-effects-of-emotional-abuse-in-relationships/). And this helped her get in touch with her intuition. Elise said, “I’m learning how to trust myself again. It’s a miracle what I can see when I’m not blinded by his manipulation and chaos.” ## LET ME KNOW HOW YOU HAVE SET BOUNDARIES IN MARRIAGE **Anne:** We have an awesome illustrated video that gives an example of how to set boundaries that does not involve blocking him on your phone or going to your mom’s house with a burner phone. Because at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we think you can set effective boundaries in any way that feels comfortable to you. So you know, how do I set boundaries. If you have questions about boundaries, you can ask them at the bottom of the transcription, in the comments, and I’ll respond. You can also comment about your experience. Have you tried to set boundaries the way the therapist or so-called experts recommend? Did it work for you? Alternatively, have you tried implementing the strategy to set effective boundaries I teach in the [Clarity After Betrayal Workshop](https://www.btr.org/clarity/ "Living Free Workshop")? I’m anxious to hear your thoughts. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast **Tags:** How Do I Set Boundaries --- ### [3 Surprising Ways Your Husband Is Taking Advantage of You](https://www.btr.org/husband-is-taking-advantage-of-me/) **Published:** July 14, 2026 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Worried that your husband is taking advantage in your relationship? Here’s what to pay attention to. **Content:** Women who feel, “my husband is taking advantage of me,” may often be confused by the damaging advice they receive when they go for help. And what you know right now may only be the tip of the iceberg. ## SEE IF YOUR HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE OF YOU: 3 WAYS ### 1. IF HE USES YOUR TRUST TO HIDE WHAT’S REALLY HAPPENING Most women don’t enter marriage looking for problems. They enter it assuming he’s telling the truth, and if something feels off, there must be a harmless reason. So when he’s distant or irritable, you might think he’s stressed or he’s had a bad day. But what if that’s not the reason he’s stressed? Stay with me…You’ll see more about how this plays out in real time. ### 2. HE LIES TO YOU ABOUT HOW HE SPENDS HIS TIME OR MONEY If your husband is taking advantage of you in this way, you’re not going to know, but it’s definitely going to feel like he’s taking advantage of you, because things are not adding up. If you need help figuring things out, join our [Betrayal Trauma Support Group online](/group/). Even if you don’t have all the details, patterns of secrecy + financial behavior + outside relationships are enough. ### 3. HE’S TRYING TO GET YOU TO DOUBT YOUR OWN INTUITION If he’s saying things like, you’re overreacting or you’re imagining things, or he’s saying he didn’t say something he definitely said, he’s trying to take advantage of that conversation to manipulate you. If you relate and think you might be experiencing emotional abuse, take my free [emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). In this transcript you’ll find the following points: - **[Recognizing When a Husband Is Exploiting Trust](#exploiting-trust)** - **[If Your Husband Is Good At Hiding Evidence](#Husband-is-good-at-hiding-evidence)** - **[Confronting Him With Evidence of Taking Advantage](#Confronting-A-Husband-Taking-Advantage-With-Evidence)** - **[The Impact on Children of His Exploitation](#The-Impact-Of-My-Husbands-Exploitation-On-Our-Children)** ## TRANSCRIPT: MY HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE OF ME **Anne**: We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Misha. Welcome, Misha. **Misha:** Hi. Thanks for having me. I have listened to the podcast. Hearing other people’s story is the reason I wanted to share my story. And be part of this community of very strong women who have experienced a lot of things, similar to what I’ve experienced. We were married six and a half years, when I found out my husband was cheating on me. I was sitting on the couch with my two children, and scrolling through my apps on my phone, and I found four NSA dating apps. NSA is no strings attached. Not just one, but four. And I didn’t know where they came from, because I saw them on my phone, not his. And then I realized that we have a family share plan that shows all the apps within the family share plan. If you toggle at the top, it shows the other devices and they were on his device. That’s what triggered my story, but it is so much more explosive than that. The things that I found out after was horrifying. I knew I needed to start [teaching children how to set boundaries](/teaching-children-how-to-set-boundaries/). ## WE WERE THE PERFECT FAMILY **Anne:** So that was what some women called D-Day. You realized something was amiss. Can we go back a little bit? How did you feel about him and how your relationship was before you found those apps? **Misha:** We were the perfect family. He was charming, well-liked in our community. He’s high ranking military. We had adopted twins from birth, who were two years old when I found out. It was like Prince Charming, and he was perfect. So I thought, looking back now, there were a lot of signs that it wasn’t. **Anne:** And you couldn’t have known. I think this is the thing people don’t understand. They might say you didn’t see the red flags, and I don’t think that’s the case. I think you see them, you just interpret them through the lens you have at the time. So if he’s grumpy, for example, you think, oh, he had a bad day. You don’t think he is having an affair. **Misha:** He showed a lot of signs of stress. But anytime I approached him about it, he was stressed out from work. He felt overwhelmed by work. And he needed space because of the job. It was always, it’s not you or the kids, it’s just me, and it’s just work. It was like my [husband was grooming me](/husband-is-ignoring-me/). So I tried to give him more space and make sure to take care of the house, kids and everything. So he could come home and decompress or whatever he needed. ## SECRET APPS AND MISSING FUNDS: MY HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE **Misha:** He couldn’t talk to me about work. So I asked him if it was really affecting him that much, that he should find someone to talk to, that there are services for military. He decided to talk to the chaplain at one point, and then it was like everything magically was better. He seemed happier and more engaged with the kids and I after that. So I thought we were fine. But that was right before I found the apps. He had downloaded them about the same time he was feeling better. Once I found those apps, it triggered me to look for more. Since he was deployed during that time, I couldn’t even talk to him when I found those apps. **Anne:** That’s kind of a blessing actually. **Misha:** It actually was. **Anne:** Knowing that your husband is taking advantage of you, it was good that he couldn’t manipulate you more and lie to you more. You could just find more information that he couldn’t twist. **Misha:** Twist and turn and I found a whole nightmare. I went into his bank account and was looking for strange transactions, thinking I would find some dating thing going on, but if they’re NSA apps, they’re probably not that happening. So I searched through the bank statements and started finding thousands of dollars, wired out $31,000, wired out $15,000, wired out $3500 a check for $20,000. **Anne:** Whoa. ## FINDING EVIDENCE OF EXTORTION **Misha:** ATM withdrawals for almost $17,000. It was a lot. I was a stay at home mom and he was providing for us. Some transactions went to a place called digital forensics.com. I didn’t know what that was. So I looked it up and it was a digital forensics company that will basically cover up your digital tracks. I found emails from this digital forensics company. They were just some that were like screenshots of his WhatsApp, which I didn’t know he had WhatsApp. Then I scrolled through those emails and clicked on the attachment for one of them. And a brochure popped up that said sextortion onboarding. **Anne:** So is he extorted for videos or pictures of him out there doing sexual things? Or is he the one doing the extorting? What were you thinking at the time? **Misha:** I had to Google it to be sure I was correct, thinking that he did something of a sexual nature that someone was using to blackmail him. And the emails confirmed he is the one extorted. It was a lot of the same questions in my mind. Is it him? Is it somebody else? What’s going on here? But I still don’t have those answers. I don’t know what he did to get himself extorted, obviously. But I do know my husband is taking advantage of it. ## I CALLED A DIVORCE LAWYER **Anne:** One of the things I talk about quite a bit is knowing one thing is knowing everything. Knowing that he was extorted for sexual videos floating around there, or an affair or something. That’s all I need to know, because it tells me everything, even though I don’t have all the details or information. **Misha:** I didn’t wanna know from the start. It was enough to see that he did something of that nature that got him in this position, and I don’t need to know what it is. The amount of money gone, he obviously did something he was guilty of doing. The amount of money he spent to cover it up and get rid of it, whatever it is, was enough. After I found those emails, I immediately called a divorce lawyer. This was in like three days. **Anne:** Good for you. **Misha:** Yeah, from the time I found the bank statements to the emails was about three days, and I called the lawyer. **Anne:** Wow, that is so brave. You were really smart about it. ‘Cause I did this, and so many of us do that. We want to talk to them or try to work it out or something, and it just gets us in deeper, so that’s amazing. Had you guys ever done couple therapy or like pornography, addiction recovery, or had you ever seen anything like that before you found those apps on the phone? **Misha:** I had caught him with pornography before, twice in our marriage. At times throughout the relationship he had stuff on his phone that was like pictures of himself being seductive in a mirror or something. I had no idea I was experiencing [betrayal trauma in a relationship](/betrayal-trauma-in-a-relationship/). ## MY HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE AND I CONFRONTED HIM **Anne:** Like thirst traps sort of? **Misha:** Yes. I confronted him about those, and he was like, I was gonna send you those pictures. I just never got around to it. We just never were that way. He didn’t like me to send seductive pictures of myself to him. There was a time when I took my daughter one morning with me. He was taking our son to a playground, and have a Father’s Sunday. I came back to the house ’cause I forgot something and he hadn’t left yet. As I approached the house, the TV was blaring with cartoons, so I went in the front door and my son is sitting on the floor. He is about 18 months old by himself, with the TV as loud as could be. My husband is nowhere around. So I darted back to our bedroom, where I needed to get the thing I forgot. The door was cracked, and I could see him sitting on the end of the bed doing what you can only imagine. I thought, “my husband is taking advantage of me being gone.” I pushed the door open and confronted him. The door was open so my son could have walked in on him. I said, “Give me your phone.” And he was like, “It’s just porn, it’s just porn.” I was very angry about it. He didn’t really spend much time with the children anyways, and instead of taking his son to the park, he chose to do that instead. ## HE WAS VERY GOOD AT HIDING EVERYTHING **Misha:** I would say for the most part, he was very good at hiding everything. He’s military. He has top secret security clearance. And he knows how to hide things. He had a work cell phone that I couldn’t touch. When I searched his emails, nothing from those apps came up. You have to have an email to use those apps. We didn’t live together because of him deploying back and forth. He lived where he was stationed. And I lived back home in the Midwest. He would visit us after deployment, and then go back and forth. **Anne:** Mm-hmm. **Misha:** He was visiting us this one time for a short weekend before he was deploying again, and he was behaving very strangely. He looked disheveled, almost like a homeless person. It was very eerie when he was home, even my son was uncomfortable with him in the home. There was one night I was trying to put him to bed, and he was just aggressively not going to sleep, and he wouldn’t go to sleep till almost three o’clock in the morning. I never had those issues getting him to sleep. And so the next night after that, I asked my husband to leave and go to the gas station while I put them to bed. It took me about 15 minutes to get him sleep. I discovered later that my husband is taking advantage of that timeframe when he was there he was withdrawing from the ATM, which was two minutes from my house. ## HE GAVE MONEY TO THE EXTORTIONER **Misha:** It was like $200 transactions for those three days. Whatever the max withdrawal, you can withdraw for your limit. I totaled nearly $7,000 cash, and he drove to visit us. He had to hide the cash in my house, and then drove halfway across the country with it to give it to whoever was extorting him. I asked him later. Did you give cash to someone? And he said yes. It was confusing. Because after I filed for divorce, I talked to my mother about what happened. She knew a military veteran. She told him a little bit about what was going on. He told her that if I didn’t report him to the military, I would be found complicit and that they could take my children from me. So I called the commander’s wife and asked her to tell me who to call for this. And she was like, “Your husband? No, it has to be somebody else. Maybe it was one of his guys. He was helping with an extortion case. There’s no way it’s your husband. He loves you. He talks about you all the time. And the kids, there’s no way.” And I said, “It is him.” **Anne:** He couldn’t very well show his true self to his commander and wife. The person they would trust and think is a good guy would be a family man. So that’s the face he would show them. Your husband is taking advantage of you and them. ## MY HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE OF HIS POSITION AND MILITARY TRAINING **Misha:** Exactly. He made a good show for sure. She referred me to the command, and then the command referred me to NCIS. I gave NCIS all the information I had. And I said, I just wanna know that my kids and I are safe. At the end of his digital forensics investigation into his extortion, there was an encrypted file saying your case has been closed. Obviously, I couldn’t see what was in the encrypted file. But I sent that to NCIS. They basically told me we were safe, and there was no other information they could give me. And that it was just an online scam. But I don’t see giving someone cash for an online scam. **Anne:** Yeah, if it was a scam, he wouldn’t have been so scared by it. **Misha:** Yeah, they basically were like, “Yep, this happens all the time.” **Anne:** Really. **Misha:** I’m like, “That’s horrible to hear, and why are you allowing it?” **Anne:** And also, What? Especially the military, you would think they would be worried about officers being extorted. Maybe by people from other countries. **Misha:** Exactly. **Anne:** It’s really alarming that your husband is taking advantage of his position. **Misha:** He gave trainings himself on this, how not to mess around to get extorted and blackmailed. Like my husband gave the trainings to his sailors on this, and this happens all the time. ## THEY SAID HE WAS THE VICTIM **Anne:** Well, and then the military doesn’t think, wait a minute, he for sure knows we’ve gotta do something about this guy. He is probably pretty dangerous. They just are like, eh, whatever, wow. **Misha:** No, they said, “He is the victim.” **Anne:** Wow! Okay. **Misha:** He’s the victim, and I was like, oh, I think he is actually the perpetrator of his own extortion. I don’t think he’s a victim of extortion. If he did something someone can use to extort him, that’s not a victim. Especially if it was a sexual nature outside your marriage. **Anne:** There are all kinds of victims in this story. Number one, you and your children, but then also perhaps the women your husband is taking advantage of, the women he’s paying money to exploit, that he’s coercing them with cash. We can imagine all the other women who maybe he’s lying to them. **Misha:** We don’t have to imagine it. I found it all. We had the same phone bill for six and a half years. I went back through the phone bills. This was going on way before we had children. It was going on our entire relationship. He was regularly in contact with sex workers. I went through phone number after phone number. He had hundreds and hundreds of text messages from all kinds of different numbers throughout the phone bill, and they led to pornography sites and escort sites. ## AUTHORITIES WOULDN’T DO ANYTHING UNLESS HE WAS VIOLENT **Anne:** Did you give the military that as well? And not that you should have, I’m just curious. **Misha:** They didn’t care. I reported him for potential prostitution. I did an entire report on all of it. **Anne:** They didn’t care that your husband is taking advantage of you and possibly endangering you and your children? **Misha:** They wouldn’t do anything unless he was violent towards me. **Anne:** Oh, that’s the insane thing about our current culture, I guess. He is, by all accounts, an abusive man on so many levels. Breaking the law because it’s illegal to coerce women with money. It’s often literal sex trafficking. Because the definition of sex trafficking is the exchange of money for it essentially. This is serious stuff. It’s criminal, but even if it wasn’t criminal, it’s abusive. But they’re like, it’s no big deal. If the people tasked with protecting us don’t know what abuse is, that’s a problem. **Misha:** Absolutely. I mean, the extent of information I found is just appalling. It makes him a very deviant person in my mind. After I was in contact with the NCIS investigators and everything, and they were like, “Yeah, thanks. We don’t care.” They brought him home within 24 hours of that phone call. **Anne:** So then you’re not protected. That was scary too. **Misha:** I said, can you not bring him home? They said, no, you guys need to talk. **Anne:** What? ![Husband Taking Advantage](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Husband-Taking-Advantage-1024x1024.webp "Husband Taking Advantage")## MY HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE & HE CLAIMS ADDICTION **Misha:** I don’t wanna talk to him. Yet they made me talk to him. **Anne:** But that only benefits him and not you. **Misha:** Yeah, they said he needs to explain himself to me. No, I don’t need an explanation. He lied to me more. He claims sex addiction. Immediately after he came home. He said, “Something happened really bad, I’ve reported myself.” He didn’t know that I was the one who reported him. **Anne:** Oh. **Misha:** I said, “No, you are home because I reported you.” And he goes, “What? What do you mean you reported me?” “I reported you, that is why they took you off the ship.” And I said, “So you can stop lying now. I know everything.” And then he just continued to lie. **Anne:** Mm-hmm. **Misha:** I know my husband is taking advantage of sex workers. He said he never had sex with any other women, so he didn’t technically cheat. **Anne:** But we know that’s not true. **Misha:** He did confirm paying for erotic massage. He said, “No sex or masturbation during the massage.” **Anne:** Didn’t you witness him doing that, to pornography? **Misha:** Yeah. **Anne:** Yeah, he’s just lying. Wow, okay. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## HE DIDN’T WANT TO GET A DIVORCE **Misha:** Well, this is the thing I said, “Where did you find an erotic massage?” Like, I wouldn’t even know where to find that. And he’s like, “Oh, it was an ad on a pornography site.” **Anne:** Also, what is the point of an erotic massage? If you don’t have sex? Just get a regular massage. **Misha:** Yeah. I was like, “You responded to an ad on a pornography site.” I said, “Where was it located?” And he said, “Someone’s private apartment.” Like, what are you doing? Going to a strange person’s apartment for that? And he did it more than once. **Anne:** Well, and a lot of these places will video without the person’s consent, and then upload it onto websites themselves. So then they have evidence of him, and that can be downloaded and uploaded repeatedly. Victims who are coerced or trafficked can never get the evidence of their sexual assault off the internet. In his case, he participated in it. That will be uploaded and downloaded. He already knew that, if that’s the class he taught in the military. **Misha:** Yeah, he knows, he doesn’t care. **Anne:** Did he react to you filing for divorce? **Misha:** He didn’t wanna get divorced, just stay separated. And I was like, absolutely not. I do not wanna be tied to you in any way. My husband is taking advantage of the courts. It took almost two years to get the divorce over with. I was trying to take the kids from him. **Anne:** He couldn’t take care of them ’cause he was always deployed, like that’s crazy. ## HE GOT A PROMOTION A MONTH AFTER **Misha:** He even told me, “I’ll give you sole custody,” at one point. And I’m like, “Okay, thanks. Sign the papers.” I mean there were so many layers of the [trauma process](/trauma-process/). He wouldn’t do it. He told me he had to give the extorters the money, because they threatened his wife and kids. I wouldn’t let him see the kids until he had proof of therapy of some kind. The military didn’t do anything. There was no punishment that I know of. He actually got a promotion to commander a month after this. I’m like my husband is taking advantage of me and our kids and they don’t care. **Anne:** That happened with my ex too, like not with his job, but with our church. Basically, I let them know, and then, like two weeks later, he had a promotion. I was like, what? **Misha:** Doesn’t make sense. So he’s like, “I’m not dating anyone. I’m not doing any of that anymore. I’m recovered, I’m in SA I went to therapy.” And my lawyers and I agreed he could have supervised visits with the children, and I had to supervise it. Because he wouldn’t pay for social worker, of course, he wanted to make me watch him play with our children. it was very uncomfortable to supervise those visits. One of the worst was Christmas. He came in town and we decided to do Christmas at our house. His parents were gonna come over, we were gonna cook a small dinner and try to have a good holiday for the kids. He was cooking in the kitchen, putting together green bean casserole, and the kids and I were in the living room. t was very uncomfortable to supervise those visits. One of the worst was Christmas. ## MY HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE OF AND ENDANGERING OUR CHILDREN **Misha:** i He came in town and we decided to do Christmas at our house. His parents were gonna come over, we were gonna cook a small dinner and try to have a good holiday for the kids. He was cooking in the kitchen, putting together green bean casserole, and the kids and I were in the living room. He gets done with that and comes in the living room. And I got up and left and went in the kitchen. Because I couldn’t tolerate being in the same room as him. And I noticed that he left his phone on the counter open and unlocked, which had never happened before. His phone was always face down and locked, and not out of his sight. And again, it’s hundreds of text messages, FaceTimes from other women, and their names are like Angelica Rose, Ruby Bee. Names that sound like an alias. So I quickly scrolled through a few of them. There were three that I remember specifically. They were inappropriate adult conversations, but among those feeds, I found pictures of my children. **Anne:** It’s inappropriate to send people involved in trafficking pictures of children. **Misha:** Yes, and he also said their names. “That he couldn’t wait to go back to their location and see them for Christmas.” After he was blackmailed, extorted. He continues to communicate with these people. And he’s also sending pictures of my children, their location, and where he will be. And when I took the phone, I shoved it in his face, and I said, “Get out of my house.” **Anne:** Yeah, your husband is taking advantage of your children, too. **Misha:** And he’s like, “We’re not together anymore. I can date whoever I want.” ## I WAS EVEN MORE WORRIED FOR MY CHILDREN **Misha:** And I reported it to the Navy, and they said, “As long as those pictures weren’t inappropriate, there’s nothing we’ll do.” **Anne:** Well, at the very least, not have custody. **Misha:** Nope. The lawyer said that there’s nothing. **Anne:** It doesn’t make a difference. **Misha:** It doesn’t matter. **Anne:** Why does everyone talk about how they hate child abuse, but they won’t stop abusers? But this guy, even though there’s all this evidence of emotional and psychological abuse, abuse of other human beings, and I’m talking about the women he’s exploiting by coercing them with cash, that’s who does the abusing. This is who they are. And did he physically sexually abuse your kids? Who knows? Maybe you know, but that’s the type of person who would, they’re not parent material. **Misha:** Exactly what I was terrified of, because they’re adopted. And I know that people who do that don’t even care if they’re biologically related. So I was even more worried for my children. I lived near his family, and I had to get away from there before the divorce was over. He gets one week and a month and some holidays, and then half the summer. **Anne:** I have found the [Living Free Workshop](/livingfree/) helps with everything. The message strategies you’ll see when you take it. If they have nothing to get from you and your kids, the current working theory is they just leave you alone forever, not taking the one weekend a month, or not taking the summer. ## THERE IS SO MUCH MORE GOING ON BESIDES WHAT I KNOW **Anne:** If there’s a woman out there listening who is wondering, is this really serious? Is this podcast actually for me? I mean, he’s only looked at pornography a few times. Or he only had that one affair or something like that. What would you share with her? **Misha:** When all this happened, the only person I really speak to is my sister. She called me immediately, and said, “I’m so sorry.” And over those next two or three days, as I found things, I shared them with her. She told her husband what happened, and he told her, “She has to go, it doesn’t matter how small it is, most of the time it is just the tip of the iceberg. And there is so much more there that you may never even know and don’t wanna know.” He was like, ” [The best way to leave a narcissist husband](/best-way-to-leave-a-narcissist-husband/) is right away.” For me, I was ready to leave the moment I found the apps, but you don’t have to stay because you need more information or evidence. You just can leave because you want to. **Anne:** Many women, and I did this, so this makes sense. I thought that when I had the information that would help him change, so in my case, I knew something was wrong. And when he got arrested for spraining my fingers, I thought, now he’ll know. Proof doesn’t do anything to them. So you taking this to him, and he did say, oh, I’ll get addiction therapy, but that’s not how it would’ve turned out. He would’ve just lied to you better. So even thinking that maybe somehow having the proof will help them make a change is also such a trap. ## LYING IS THE PROBLEM WHEN YOUR HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE **Anne:** I’m so grateful that your sister and brother-in-law helped you see through that. That’s great that you had such good support. **Misha:** I am the kind of person that I have to know. So while he’s telling me he’s not doing those things anymore, I’m continuing to dig. Finding things was just more confirmation that he was never going to stop lying, and that I should not allow him to convince me to even contemplate getting back together, stay separated, and I still catch him lying about things. **Anne:** I mean, why do they want to be married when they don’t want to be married? **Misha:** Oh, that was my thing. **Anne:** What do they think marriage is? **Misha:** If this is what you wanna do with your life, why would you have a wife and children, just be single? And I hate that you wanna participate in, you know, sex trafficking, but if you wanna be single and go no strings attached with everyone else, that’s your choice. But it wasn’t mine, and I didn’t get a choice. And now I’m like, “[Am I over my ex the best way to know](/am-i-over-my-ex-the-best-way-to-know/)?” Well, I can look back at all the facts. **Anne:** Exactly. Why not just be like, this is who I am, this is what I wanna do. Do you wanna be married to me under these circumstances? This is the whole point. If they weren’t abusive, they would say, oh no, I really like paying women for sex. I’m gonna keep doing it. And maybe no one would arrest them. But at least we could be like, oh, I don’t wanna be married to a man who does that. So goodbye. ## I DIDN’T HAVE FREEDOM OF CHOICE **Anne:** The lying is the real problem. While I don’t support pornography or any abuse of women, whether through coercion or exploitation, at least then you’d clearly see that your husband taking advantage goes beyond what you may have realized. **Misha:** Exactly. It would give me freedom of choice. But I didn’t have that. I still don’t have it, ’cause he’s still lying. I just wish he didn’t have custody of my children. **Anne:** Yeah, hopefully I can check back in with you after you’ve learned the [Living Free strategies](/livingfree/) and see how things are going in six months to a year from now, and see if it was helpful to you. Thank you so much for sharing today. I am so sorry you’re going through this. Your story will help women. I’m so grateful that you were willing to share. **Misha:** Thank you for having me on. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [The Urgent Marriage Bible Reference No One Quotes](https://www.btr.org/marriage-bible-reference/) **Published:** July 21, 2026 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Here's what scripture really says to women who need answers about marriage. **Content:** If you’ve ever searched for a marriage bible reference because someone told you, “A good Christian wife shouldn’t say no,” you’re not alone. Many women, especially when we’re juggling children, church expectations, and a husband who says he has “needs”, go looking for scripture to settle the question: **Does the Bible really require me to submit to intimacy that feels one-sided or emotionally detached?** ## WHY WOMEN NEED THESE BIBLE REFERENCES In this interview with Sheila Wray Gregoire (co-author of *The Great Sex Rescue*, based on research from more than 20,000 Christian women), we unpack something most marriage conversations miss: The Bible repeatedly tells believers to resist evil, guard their hearts, and seek protection—not to submit to harm in God’s name. Let’s walk through the powerful marriage bible reference no one quotes when women are pressured into “intimacy” out of duty. ## THE MARRIAGE BIBLE REFERENCE FOR WOMEN IN A CONFUSING MARRIAGE A common problem in Christian marriage teaching is defining intimacy almost entirely around intercourse and male climax. In the interview we discussed a study of over 20,000 Christian women. Here’s what we found. - Women who feel emotionally disconnected report far lower satisfaction intimacy. - Obligation-driven intimacy correlates with increased pain and emotional withdrawal. Yet many Christian books interpret these bible references to frame physical intimacy as: - His need - Her obligation - A way to prevent him from using inappropriate or exploitative media or infidelity For a mom who already carries the emotional weight of the family, this adds another invisible burden: **“Keep him stable, or it’s your fault if he sins.”** That framing erases the pain she feels from the infidelity because apparently she caused it. This is actually a form of spiritual and emotional abuse. To find out if you’re experiencing this, here’s my [free emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ## THE MARRIAGE BIBLE REFERENCE NO ONE QUOTES When women are told to endure their husband’s harmful behavior in marriage, certain verses are often quoted. But others, just as authoritative, are quietly ignored. Here are the powerful passages that show God consistently calls His people to protect themselves from harm. ### 1. “DELIVER US FROM EVIL” — MATTHEW 6:13 Jesus Himself taught believers to pray for deliverance from evil. Not “Help us tolerate evil” or “Help us endure harm silently.” Deliver. The Lord’s prayer tells us to pray for deliverance and it means God wants to protect us. God makes it clear that evil exists and we should seek to be delivered from it. To talk to Christian women who understand your situation, attend one of our [daily, online Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/). There you can fellowship with faithful women who are discovering their husband’s true character and figuring out what to do through prayer and scripture study. ### 2. “GUARD YOUR HEART” — PROVERBS 4:23 > “Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it.” If physical with your husband feels soul-crushing, if your body recoils, if you feel used rather than known, this verse supports protecting your emotional and spiritual core. Guarding your heart is not rebellion. It’s what God wants women to do if their husband hurts them emotionally. ### 3. “RESIST THE DEVIL” — JAMES 4:7 > “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.” Resistance is biblical. Spiritual language is being used by wicked people to override your righteous boundaries. , that pressure should not go unquestioned. Scripture does not command passive compliance with manipulation. ### 4. “PUT ON THE ARMOR OF GOD” — EPHESIANS 6:10–18 Here’s the thing, many scriptures are actually marriage bible references, even if they don’t say “marriage” because they talk about how believers should deal with people who hurt them. For example, why would God tell anyone, even women, to put on the armor of God? Because harm is real. The imagery of spiritual armor teaches you to stand firm and defend yourself. Often, women don’t realize the man she married is lying to her, pretending to be righteous when he’s actually undermining her and their marriage. This causes real harm and God wants everyone, including women to protect themselves. ### 5. “GOD IS REFUGE” — PSALM 46:1 > “God is our refuge and strength, an ever-present help in trouble.” Refuge means safety. A marriage *should* provide emotional safety. But if it doesn’t, there’s something wrong. If the way your husband treats you leaves you feeling invisible or emotionally unsafe, that does not align with how marriage should be, according to God. ### 6. “HATE WHAT IS EVIL” — ROMANS 12:9 > “Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good.” Marriage does not transform evil into righteousness. Coercion does not become holy because you made a vow with a man who lied and doesn’t keep his vows. If he doesn’t keep his vow to cherish and protect you, it’s not your fault. God wants you to hate being harmed so you can learn to protect yourself. ## HOW THE WRONG INTERPRETATION OF A MARRIAGE BIBLE REFERENCE HURT GENERATIONS OF WOMEN Certain marriage bible references have been interpreted incorrectly, and have told women that… - “She must be available for physical intimacy or he’ll sin.” - “All men struggle with lust, so this is normal.” - “Her body is the solution to his sin problem.” The research tells us that when women are told these untrue interpretations they have - Lower marital satisfaction - Higher pain - Greater emotional disconnection Meanwhile, women who report emotionally close marriages experience: - Higher mutual satisfaction - Better intimacy - Greater physical responsiveness The data does not support obligation intimacy as “saving” marriage. It supports emotional health as the foundation of a healthy, fulfilling marriage. ## WHAT THIS MEANS FOR WOMEN WITH CHILDREN If you’re raising kids with a man who is harming you, you’re trying to figure out what God wants you to do because the situation is complex. You have children to raise and you’re likely financially dependent on your husband. Here’s a powerful truth to help you. Scripture consistently calls believers to pursue righteousness, safety, and protection. Examples in real life might look like: - Saying, “I am not willing to have one-sided intimacy. If fact, if it is, it’s not really intimacy is it.” - Refusing to accept sexual sin as “normal male behavior.” - Stop seeking counsel from people who don’t take your concerns seriously. - Praying for deliverance, not just for endurance. ## RE-FRAMING THE “MARRIAGE BIBLE REFERENCE” REQUIREMENT Women tell me they were discouraged to protect themselves from their emotionally unsafe husband by people quoting scripture. But there are countless marriage bible references that encourage people to separate themselves from wickedness. If someone is using scripture to coerce you to stay close to someone who harms you, they’re not being Christlike. Christ would put his arms around you and tell you you deserve to feel emotionally safe in your own home. The Bible does speak about marriage. But it also repeatedly commands believers to: - Flee evil (1 Thessalonians 5:22) - Stand firm (1 Corinthians 16:13) - Seek wisdom (James 1:5) - Protect the vulnerable (Psalm 82:3–4) Nowhere does scripture teach that a wife must endure coercion to prove her godliness. It DOES NOT say that male desire overrides female consent. Nowhere does it command women to sacrifice their emotional health to preserve appearances. ## TRANSCRIPT: MARRIAGE BIBLE REFERENCE NO ONE QUOTES **Anne:** So many women are looking for marriage bible references to figure out if they are being a Godly wife. If you’re not Christian or you’re agnostic or atheist, this episode has a lot of data that will be useful to you. We’ll talk about the incorrect interpretations of scripture that show up in secular places as well, and how it’s harmed women. Women looking for God’s help to save their marriage (or improve it) aren’t dumb. They’re humble and are reaching out for help. The problem is people are telling them the bible says certain things about marriage that it actually doesn’t say. So today I’m talking with Sheila Rae Gregoire. She’s best known as the blogger of to love honor and vacuum. And she, her daughter Rebecca Gregoire Lindenbach and Epidemiologist Joanna Sowatski, surveyed more than 20,000 Christian women. About their lives, marriages, and beliefs about marriage and intimacy. Together, they wrote a book called *The Great Sex Rescue, the Lies You’ve Been Taught, and How to Recover What God intended*. ![Marriage Bible References](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Free-Christian-Books-By-Mail-Canada.webp "Free Christian Books by Mail Canada")After reading it, I’m like, throw all your other Christian intimacy books in the garbage. Today, Sheila and I will focus on how to recognize intercourse that’s unhealthy. So, Sheila, you started writing about intimacy in Christian circles a long time ago. What got you interested in this in the first place? ## CHRISTIAN BOOKS CONTAINING BAD ADVICE: SHEILA’S JOURNEY INTO INTIMACY WRITING **Sheila:** Thanks so much for having me. We had such a great time chatting before we even recorded this, that like, hey, we’re just besties. Well, it’s like nobody grows up thinking I’m going to become the Christian sex lady. Like that’s not anyone’s plan, and it certainly wasn’t mine. I started blogging and I was just talking about marriage, you know, and parenting and housekeeping, and just the normal mom blog stuff. But simultaneously, my husband and I were speaking at many marriage conferences, and we always had to do the talk because nobody wanted to do it. And so we would just get plugged in there and he’s a doctor. He’ll talk up at anything. He doesn’t care. And I don’t care either. So it seemed like we were always the intimacy people. And I just started writing about it more. The more I wrote about it, the more people showed up at the blog. And I think ever since then, my blog has been mostly about intimacy. **Anne:** Hey, I get where you’re coming from. I never thought I’d be the pornography podcaster. So I totally get it. My mom always says the anti-pornography podcaster. So tell me about this study that you did. ![Marriage Bible Reference](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Christian-Books-By-Mail.webp "Christian Books by Mail")**Sheila:** It seemed like no matter how much we said, and no matter how much good content I produced. People still had all the same problems. And it was like I wasn’t making a dent in it. And I started to wonder, maybe the issue isn’t that people don’t have enough good resources. Maybe it’s that our foundation is faulty, and there’s something seriously wrong underneath. But until we address that structural flaw, nothing’s really going to work. ## HUGE STUDY ABOUT IDENTIFYING MESSAGES HURTING WOMEN **Sheila:** And so we did this huge study of Christian women in every denomination, every sect, every everything. Trying to figure out what correlates with good a good intimate life, and what correlates with a bad one. And how we can identify what messages in Christian books hurt women. And I think one of our big problems is just a definitional one. So if I were to say to you, did you have it last night? Okay, which I won’t, because that’s really creepy. But if I asked you that, chances are you’re thinking something specific. Like, you’re thinking, did he put his thing into her thing and move around until he climaxed? You know, that’s our definition. **Anne:** You can say penis and vagina, by the way. So let’s just say really quick, for this particular episode, if you do have young ears listening, we will be saying that. So you may want to pause and restart when they’re not in the car. **Sheila:** I’m probably going to say orgasm too. So anyway, yeah, did he put his penis into her vagina and move around until he reached climax? And that’s what we think it is. But, in our survey, what we found is that only about a third of women who do reach orgasm can reach orgasm through intercourse alone. Okay, so most women need something other than just intercourse. And most women find it easier to reach orgasm in other ways. ## BIBLICAL PERSPECTIVE ON INTIMACY **Sheila:** So if we say intercourse is just man puts thingy into her thingy and moves around until he climaxes, we’re leaving her almost entirely out of the description. Like she could lie there counting ceiling tiles, she could write a grocery list in her head, and that still counts. And that’s just not how the Bible talks about it. First of all, it’s not only physical. The Bible talks about it as a deep knowing, you know, Adam knew his wife Eve. Like it’s a deep knowing between two people. So it isn’t just. physical. It’s also supposed to be spiritually intimate. Then it’s supposed to be mutual and pleasurable, where both get something out of it. And instead, we’ve condensed it to one-sided intercourse. When we do that, all kinds of bad things happen. And I think our primary problem is that we see it mostly from a male perspective, that it’s only about intercourse. Well, Biblical intimacy is something which is life giving. It’s something which binds you together and helps you to feel more intimate. The way we often talk about it is actually something which is soul crushing. We see it as an obligation that she owes him. So it’s an entitlement on his part. It’s an obligation on hers. Many Christian intimacy authors write books with bad information. And that’s got all kinds of repercussions. What we saw over and over again in our survey responses and in the focus groups we did afterwards. Is that the women with the best lives, the most responsive, and enjoyed it the most. Were the women who felt emotionally close to their husbands, both inside and outside the bedroom. ![Marriage Bible References You Need Now](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Order-Free-Christian-Books-By-Mail.webp "Order Free Christian Books by Mail")## EMOTIONAL CLOSENESS & SATISFACTION **Sheila:** So, the people in the happiest marriages tend to have the best intimacy, and that shouldn’t surprise us. Like, well, that’s kind of intuitive, right? But the problem is, we talk about it as if it can be a substitute for those other things. Like, if you don’t feel close, you should just have it so that you’ll be closer. What we found is that that doesn’t actually work. When women have it for years. And they feel emotionally distant from their husbands, they just can’t sustain that. When you have it, which is supposed to be deep knowing, and when it becomes only physical. It actually becomes a rejection of you. Like if it is supposed to be a knowing, it means both people matter. But if it becomes something that you only do because you’re supposed to, then your needs are no longer being considered. And that means you don’t matter, and then it becomes a rejection, and that’s not right. Think about it this way. When you get a driver’s license, you can now drive. It doesn’t mean you get a car. And when you get married, you now have the relationship in which you can have it. It doesn’t mean you get it. You’re just now in the relationship where it is sanctioned by God. But that doesn’t mean it has to happen anymore than having a driver’s license means you get a car. It just means you have permission to drive. And it’s the same thing with intercourse. You know, when we get married, it’s not like we’re promising now I will have it with you whenever you want. We’re now saying this is the relationship in which life giving it can occur. ## THE IMPACT OF FORCED INTERCOURSE ON WOMEN **Sheila:** And that’s healthy. That’s a good thing. That’s what we should be aiming for. But God does not require us to have soul crushing intercourse. And if you’re told you need it, or else something bad will happen. right? Or else he’s going to watch explicit material, or else he’s going to have an affair, or he’ll be grumpy and treat you terribly. Then that’s not a free choice that you are making. When you can’t freely say no, you can’t freely say yes either. And that’s a big problem. And we’ve got the numbers. I’m a numbers person. I love it. But we have so much data of what happens when you have it for years, simply because you feel like you have to. And you feel almost forced into it, and it is not pretty. This does not end well for women. This is soul crushing. And what I often tell women to say is something like this, “hon, I would love to have a passionate life with you. I would love to make love with you. But that’s not what’s happening right now. What’s happening right now is that I feel used and so I am no longer willing to have it one-sided with you. I need to connect in every way, and I need to be able to trust you and I need to feel safe. And until that happens, I am no longer willing to have it with you.” [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) That’s okay to do because when God created us for relationship and marriage, he didn’t create us so that we were now slaves to someone else, as many Christian relationship books state. ## PERSONAL EXPERIENCES & STRUGGLES **Sheila:** He created us for connectedness, for community, for relationship, for emotional health. God never wants you to feel used. That is never his will. **Anne:** I remember when I first got married, I was 31 and a virgin. I remember telling my friends who were also virgins, I said, I feel like a machine. It was really one-sided. I didn’t enjoy it from the beginning, and I said, it’s weird. Because I just feel like some object he use. I thought I would get it, but I don’t get it. And I remember thinking that and telling people that because I was trying to get help. I was trying to be like, what is this? How do I navigate this? There were so many things I didn’t understand. I didn’t know he was using it. I didn’t know I was being gaslit. But I think many women have that thought of like, am I just? A robot? What am I? Who am I? What is my identity in this? And how do I fit into this? What does [lack of true intimacy do to a woman](https://www.btr.org/lack-of-intimacy-in-marriage/ "lack of true intimacy do to a woman")? Can you talk about what the data said about women who have traditional views on gender roles? Or who get their information from popular marriage bible references that have been misinterpreted? **Sheila:** Yeah, I found this interesting. Okay, so let me take my daughter, for instance. One of my daughters is a real homemaker. She loves everything about being a housewife. And she came home last week because her husband is in the military and he’s away right now. She came home last week, and cleaned my entire kitchen, got behind the fridge, got under the stove. Like she totally cleaned everything. ## CHRISTIAN BOOKS PROMOTE HARMFUL TRADITIONAL GENDER ROLES AND MANDATORY INTIMACY **Sheila:** She lives for this sort of thing. And her husband, like I said, is in the military. Okay, he likes to shoot things for fun. Like he loves doing skull art. He will shoot animals, and he will turn the skulls into things on the wall. All right. Now, what we found is that when you look at couples like my daughter and son-in-law, if those roles are freely chosen. So if she decides to stay home and be a housewife, and if he decides to work outside the home. Because that is what they individually want to do, that’s great. But if they make that choice because they think I have to stay at home because I’m a woman, and I have to go out and earn a living because I’m a man, their emotional intimacy suffers. **Anne:** Does it also apply to something, like I have to clean the toilet, make dinner or do the laundry because I’m a woman? And the man thinking, you have to clean the toilet because you’re the woman? **Sheila:** Probably, I would assume, but we can’t speak to that because we didn’t specifically ask about that. There are some more words that we didn’t put in. We didn’t say we’re egalitarian. Even though we are, we didn’t say lots of words like that. And that was deliberate. That was a deliberate choice that we made. And the reason is because the people I need to reach, the people whose minds I need to change. Are the people who are buying in the most to many of these negative teachings. ## TRYING TO CHANGE PEOPLE’S MINDS **Sheila:** They tend to be the people in the most patriarchal churches. That’s another word we didn’t use, patriarchal. We wanted to present the data and let it speak for itself. What we found on the blog over the last few years is that every time I try to talk about gender roles or something, we end up talking past each other. People start debating doctrine and they start debating. What does the Bible say about this? I don’t find that gets us anywhere, but if I can say something like, you can believe that if you want. But she’s going to have a 38 percent lower orgasm rate. I find that works better. We try to bring it back to the data and get it out of the political realm or the doctrinal realm. And talk about the data. I think this can help change people’s minds. I think this is the way in, because most people want good intimacy. Like, most people don’t want this to be wrecked. And so if I can show them, Hey, when you believe these things, it is more likely to be terrible. They’re going to listen to me much more than if I start talking about how misogynistic everybody is. **Anne:** I like it. I do use those terms I don’t think of them as political, you know, but some people do. So I respect that you did that and that makes total sense. **Sheila:** Well, I think you’re a different spot though, right? Like you get people who are coming to you, who have already felt betrayed or are thinking about it. I’m trying to reach a broader audience and change the conversation. I just hope we’re doing that. I think we are. ## POPULAR CHRISTIAN BOOKS & THEIR FLAWS **Anne:** Oh, I think so too. Can you talk about these popular Christian books and some of the main themes that you saw that were unhealthy for women? **Sheila:** Yeah, one of the biggest ones is summed up in a Christian book called *Love and Respect*, where the author says, if your husband is typical, he has a need you don’t have. And that says so much. Like, first of all, it says it is for the guy. It’s not for the woman. It phrases it in terms of his need, rather than just a drive. You know, I don’t believe it is a need. I think we all have a drive, but it’s not a need. And when we talk about it as a need, we frame it as something which she would be depriving him if she ever said no. **Anne:** He’s gonna die if you don’t have it with him. **Sheila:** Yeah, exactly. **Anne:** It’s like air and food. **Sheila:** So that’s highly problematic. That was typical, that framing of it as something about him, not about her. And then the other one, I think, which was big. Which goes throughout most resources is that you’re just not allowed to deprive him. So it is an obligation that women owe. Kevin Lehman in *Sheet Music* said, “You know, when you get married, realize you’re signing up to have it at least two or three times a week for the rest of your life. And sometimes you might have to force yourself and you might want to shove him off of you. But you have to do it anyway as an act of obedience.” ## MARRIAGE BIBLE REFERENCES DON’T PROMOTE MARITAL COERCION **Sheila:** So we actually measured that. We said, what happens if women have it when their primary motivation is because I have to. And it just leads to all sorts of terrible things in terms of marital satisfaction. And it drives the couple further and further apart. **Anne:** I appreciated how you brought up [what marital coercion is](https://www.btr.org/what-is-marital-coercion/ "what marital coercion is"), which, to my knowledge, is not mentioned anywhere in any of these popular Christian books. They never say, if you don’t get your wife’s consent, then it’s rape, right? And I love how you brought that up. Were there any questions about marital rape in your study? Are Christian relationship books addressing this? No. **Sheila:** What we did is we talked about it in some focus groups and in some follow up surveys. And what I can tell you is that of the women who left their email addresses, which was about 20 percent of the women who took our survey. About 20 percent of them said they had stories of marital rape to share with us. Which is a very high percentage. Now, obviously that was a self selected group, but none of the evangelical resources we looked at even said the word consent. John Gottman’s book is the best selling marriage book on the secular market. Which we used as our control book *Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work*, that one spoke at length about consent. And so this is something which is talked about all the time in the secular world, which the Christian world has no idea how to talk about. ## EVERY MAN’S BATTLE: A CRITICAL LOOK **Anne:** Mm hmm, yeah, many of our listeners have experienced marital coercion. And so that number does not surprise me at all because we talk about it all the time. I don’t mean to make light of it, but it’s just something that’s common around here. So can we talk about *Every Man’s Battle*? **Sheila:** Okay, so *Every Man’s Battle* basically says men will lust, and the book is strange, okay. Because it’ll give a lot of lists of things that men do. Like maybe you find yourself opening the door for her, but not out of honorable means. Just so that she can go first, and you can stare at her behind. You know, maybe you find yourself looking across the room at a woman where a button has come undone. Maybe you find yourself masturbating in a gym car parking lot to see the women exiting the gym. And it’s like, excuse me. Or they’ll tell a story about this guy who’s watching TV. His sister-in-law is lying down on the floor on her stomach, and she falls asleep. And she’s got really short shorts on. So he masturbates there while she’s asleep on the floor. And they portray that as a sin against his purity, when really that is a sin against her. This is the problem throughout that book. Every time he lusts, it is a sin against his purity. And she never enters the equation. Like whenever they talk about women, they give this gross discussion of this jogger at the beginning of the book. How her glistening flesh, ample bosom, and skin tight tie-dyed jogging suit, it’s just gross. ## TREATING WOMEN LIKE OBJECTS **Sheila:** And then they say the solution to lust is to bounce your eyes and not look at women. And then to transfer all your energy to your wife. Stop lusting after everybody else and just lust after your wife. But, you know, lust is a sin, even if it’s after your wife. Like lust is just simply using someone else for your gratification. That’s what lust is. So you shouldn’t be lusting after your wife either. You should love your wife and enjoy an intimate experience with her. Not just using her, but they think it’s okay to use her because she’s just your wife. Like you can’t defeat lust when you agree with lust’s definition of women. Lust’s definition of women is they exist as objects. So the way I’m going to defeat lust is to never look at a woman because she’s a object. And then to treat my wife like a object, so that I don’t want to treat all these other women like objects. How about just simply learning how to respect women as whole people? **Anne:** It’s not only a disservice to women, but also a disservice to men to say that men are incapable of treating women with respect. So you have to like what? Shut your eyes and Mr. Magoo through life. ## CHRISTIAN BOOKS MAGNIFY THE STRESS OF MAINTAINING PURITY **Sheila:** In the first chapter of *Through A Man’s Eyes*. It describes how stressful this man’s life is, because he’s trying to remain pure for his wife. So his entire workday is stressful. Because what if one of his coworkers is sitting across from him in their meeting, and her button is undone? Or what if another coworker, what if her skirt is too short? And what if the barista at the coffee shop, what if she’s wearing something tight? What if he sees these billboards and he’s trying not to look at anybody all day, and then he gets home and he’s so happy that now he gets to look at his wife. And I read that and I’m like, Are men really that stressed their entire life? Like, is it that difficult to be a man? So I asked my husband, who’s a pediatrician, and he works in an all female environment. So all the other doctors are female. The nurses tend to be female. The parents who bring the kids in are female. So I thought, if life is really this stressful, he’s going to have a terrible time. So I said, are you stressed all day because a woman might have a button undone or she might be too attractive? And he laughed at me. He didn’t think I was serious. And I said, no, no, I am serious. Like, is this difficult for you? That’s what some Christian relationship books say. And he still laughed at me. But the book had told me that men will not confess this to you. Men will not tell you the truth. And so your husband won’t tell you the truth. So I’m wondering, is he just not telling me the truth? ## RESPECTING WOMEN AS WHOLE PEOPLE **Sheila:** And then when he realized I was serious, he’s like, wait, no, there are guys like that? No, there’s not. I don’t want to share too much information, but my husband is not a low drive man. Like, okay, he’s got testosterone and everything. And he thought this whole idea was the stupidest thing he’d ever heard, because my husband respects women. And he was really offended. He was offended that people would think a man can’t just respect women. And I just wish more men would get upset at the demeaning, horrible way these and other Christian books treat men. **Anne:** I mean, I talk to my sons often about that. Like, when we went to a water park. And one of my sons was like, Mom, I don’t know if I want to go there, because there are so many girls in bikinis, and it kind of bothers me. And I said, well, what do you think would happen if they didn’t have a stomach, these women? What is their stomach for? I’m like, is it for you to look at? Or is it so they can eat? And he was like, Oh, so they can eat. And I was like, and what are their legs for? What if a woman didn’t have legs? I’m trying to help him realize that women, regardless of what they’re wearing or doing, are people. And she’s not wearing a bikini to ruin your day. She’s just wearing a bikini, because she wants to go to the beach and soak up some sun. ## NAVIGATING LIFE WITH AN ADDICTED SPOUSE **Anne:** So many women when they find out about their husband’s explicit content use. They go into this mode where they’re like, we can’t go to the beach. We can’t go swimming. We can’t watch the Super Bowl. And suddenly, the things they can do narrow and narrow. And I’m not saying people should do things unethical or immoral. But I like going to the beach, you know, I want to go to the beach. I want to go to a water park with my kids. And want to enjoy regular wholesome activities with my children. I have a lot of empathy for this, because I went through the same period where I felt traumatized when we went to the beach. I felt like we couldn’t watch movies. It’s such a weight to bear, your husband’s inability to treat women with respect. **Sheila:** Well, first of all, I’m so sorry. You should never have to bear that. But in terms of how to handle that, if he can’t go to the beach, you can still go to the beach with your kids. Like, don’t wreck your own life. But the other thing is to remember what victory should look like. Victory means he can look at women as whole people. And that means that he needs to stop blaming women for his use and his lust. The reason he’s lusting is not because of what she’s wearing. The reason he’s lusting is because of how he chooses to see women, and it is not her fault. ## CHRISTIAN BOOKS WRONGFULLY COMPARE YOUR WIFE TO METHADONE **Anne:** Absolutely, we see that type of behavior and disrespect for women as an abuse issue. Here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we’ve got an emotionally and psychologically abusive man. Who is unable to view women as people, and that’s going to include you. In Chapter six, you say your wife is not your methadone. Around here, I say alcoholics abuse alcohol, drug addicts abuse drugs, and addicts abuse people. They use people as drugs. **Sheila:** Yeah, when we first read the Christian book, *Love and Respect*, I was absolutely floored. Up until that time, I hadn’t read many evangelical marriage books or Christian marriage books, so I wasn’t aware of the prevailing interpretation of marriage bible references. Because I was always so scared of plagiarizing. So I read *Love and Respect*, the chapter said men need it in a way that women don’t. If men don’t get physical release, they’re going to have an affair, and women need to understand men’s lust problem. And that’s all it said. It was terrible. And I wrote a blog post about this, and I was trying to convey how awful this was, like how absolutely abhorrent this was. I was talking to my daughter, and she said, well, it’s almost like he’s talking about women like they’re methadone. And I thought, yeah, that’s the perfect analogy. So we said like, women are not methadone. And then I’m reading *Every Man’s Battle*, and they actually think that’s a selling feature. Like they use that line twice. They said once he quits cold turkey, be like a merciful vial of methadone for him. **Anne:** Wow. **Sheila:** Like they did it. We were saying it ironically, they did it unironically. ## A DISTURBING COMPARISON **Sheila:** Like they thought this was a good line. They have no clue. Let’s think about what that’s saying. Okay, methadone is a substitute. So if you’re addicted to opioids, what you want is the opioid. But you will settle for methadone, because it satiates you enough that you don’t feel the need to go after the opioid. So if we’re talking about this in the context of marriage and explicit content, what we’re saying is what he wants is to masturbate to that hot woman on the screen. But he will settle for having it with you, because that will satiate him enough that he won’t go for the it right now. Like that’s disgusting. Women are not methadone. Women are whole people made in the image of God, and we should never have been treated that way. And it’s absolutely unconscionable that the book series sold 4 million copies. Like where is the discernment and where are the leaders saying women are worth more than this? And I guess that’s what I want. I want people to understand that women are worth more than this. We are precious, and it was never meant to be reduced to. Hey, let him ejaculate inside of you so that he doesn’t watch it. That is abusive in every way. Thank you for what you’re doing, because my heart is for those who have been betrayed. I pray this message will get out there, and that it will be a message of real freedom. And just to know that God wants wholeness, He wants real intimacy, and it is never ever his heart that any woman feel used. ## PROCESSING TRAUMA FROM BAD ADVICE **Anne:** I am so grateful that you have shed light on these dangerous ideas. That many Christian women have had as the foundation of their understanding of what it is and what their “role” is in it. So the question is, how do we process the trauma we’ve experienced from all the bad advice? That we may have received from these Christian books and society over the years? **Sheila:** I was in that culture, you know, that evangelical culture, which said men need it and women want affection. It’s usually the guy who’s frustrated. And women, what we need to do is understand how much he needs it. And in *The Good Girls Guide,* the Original, there was an element of it there. Because I was in that culture, and I was never comfortable with it. I always knew there was something wrong with it. And I was actually one of the first people to talk a lot about higher drive wives. Because I did a big survey back then, and found out how many women actually have the higher drive. And it’s like they don’t exist, like they’re unicorns. No one ever talks about that. It’s just, Oh, he needs it and she doesn’t, but not always true. But you know, the more I listened to women. The more I realized that we were missing out on a huge part of the story, and that was actually the impetus for doing that huge survey of 20, 000 women. We wanted to understand, do some evangelical teachings hurt women? Just like you said, they can cause actual trauma, and we were able to measure that. ## MEASURING THE HARM OF INCORRECT INTERPRETATIONS OF MARRIAGE BIBLE REFERENCES **Sheila:** We can now say, Hey, if you believe all men struggle with lust, it’s *Every Man’s Battle*. It’s no wonder you don’t feel heard in your marriage. You’re like 47 percent less likely to feel heard in your marriage. Or 59%. less likely to feel like your opinions matter as much as his. This has major repercussions, we need to change the way we talk about it. **Anne:** When you start peeling back these layers of maybe Christian teachings that you get from incorrect Incorrect Interpretations of marriage Bible references, general clergy or even societally. We have listeners who aren’t Christian, agnostics or atheists. They tell us the same thing. Maybe in a movie there was a man who was cheating. The woman was like, okay, I’m going to put on cuter outfit and I’m going to get him back or win him back somehow. So this isn’t just coming from Christian authors, but I think it’s more traumatic coming from Christian authors. Because you have some belief and trust that what they’re telling you is true, and it will help you. And if you follow their counsel or their teachings it’s God approved. **Sheila:** Yeah, I think one of the problems actually is that it steals our last place of safety. Like when we say God wants you to have it with your husband, so that he doesn’t watch it. Then who do you go to now when you feel betrayed? Who do you go to now when you feel desperate? Like this is God sanctioned now, so you can’t even pray. Like you have nothing left. They’ve stolen God from you too. And I think that’s where a lot of the source of trauma comes from. ## THE PROBLEM WITH FREQUENCY OVER QUALITY **Anne:** That’s spiritual abuse. It’s spiritual coercion, essentially saying you’re not a godly person if you don’t give it to your husband when you don’t want it. And they’re also not saying, maybe you don’t want it for a good reason. Maybe because you don’t feel safe. Maybe because he’s been lying to you. **Sheila:** That’s the big difference, what is the aim of all the advice? What are we actually working towards? And what we’re working towards is an emotionally healthy relationship. The way that we believe God intended. So we’re working towards a life which is intimate, pleasurable, and mutual. It’s going to be emotionally healthy. And that means you don’t do things that are emotionally unhealthy, that will hurt someone. And yet, if you look at the advice often given in Christian circles and in the world, the aim is not necessarily emotional health. The aim is to keep your marriage together. Or make sure he feels good, or do this so that you will feel like a good wife. And it’s not actually about health, and should we be surprised when people end up hurt? **Anne:** Yeah, it’s almost like the goal was simply to ensure that women have it with their husbands. Like that was the top priority. Because it seemed like the concern was, heaven forbid, a wife not having it with her husband. That is the, like, biggest problem in the world. **Sheila:** Yeah, you know, what are the outcome variables for many of these negative teachings? And I know that sounds like outcome variables, super academic. But basically what we meant was if you believe certain things. How can we measure the harm it does or the good it does? ## MEASURE OF A HEALTHY MARRIAGE **Sheila:** So for instance, if you believe women are obligated to give their husband it when they want it. We know that marital satisfaction goes down, l pain rates go up, and orgasm rates go down. If you believe you need to give your husband it or he’ll watch it, same thing. Marital satisfaction plummets, orgasm rates plummet. Same thing if you believe all men struggle with lust, same thing if you believe women have to be the gatekeepers. So all these things we know have negative outcomes in terms of marital and satisfaction. But, and here’s the crucial but, they also have slightly higher frequency rates. Not like a huge amount. We’re not talking like six times a week versus once a month. We’re talking like, you know, 2.8 times a week instead of 2.3. And so the question we had was, does this mean that Evangelical leader’s main measure of a healthy life is how often they have it? Rather than how good the it is and how good the marriage is? And we would argue that, yeah, that’s what it means. They think frequency is everything. **Anne:** Mm, so in some of the incorrect interpretations of marriage bible references religious they think anything that would decrease frequency is some kind of threat. **Sheila:** Yes, healthier marriages tend to lead to happier people, but that’s not considered a viable alternative. You and I were talking before we started recording about how he said that even though we shouldn’t feel obligated to have it with our spouses, we need to realize that it should be a sacrifice. At least some of the time, and you should have to give it, even if you don’t want to. ## OBLIGATION INTIMACY: A HARMFUL MESSAGE OF INCORRECT INTERPRETATIONS OF SCRIPTURE **Sheila:** And so it’s like he’s saying on the one hand that obligation intercourse is bad. But then, on the other hand, he’s saying to women. In the same way that you get up in the middle of the night and feed your newborn, even with your sore nipples and everything. So, we need to consider the needs of the other person. And so it’s like he just can’t get rid of this obligation message. And I think it comes down to the fact that many evangelical pastors, leaders, and probably many people in the wider culture just believe women don’t like it. That if you give them the choice, they won’t have it. That women are not intimate beings. They truly believe that. And so the only way to get women to have it is to tell them they have to. And that’s what we’re arguing against. We’re trying to set the record straight and say, obligation intimacy doesn’t feel good. That’s not what you want. If you treat your wife like she has to give you it, you will wreck it. **Anne:** Yeah. **Sheila:** Can I tell you the story about Bob? **Anne:** Tell me the Bob story. What about Bob? **Sheila:** What about Bob? Okay, his real name is not Bob. I like that name. But anyway, he was a commenter on my blog. And he told me his story. So they’ve been married for 40 years, so I assume he’s in his sixties. And he said, when they first got married, they would have it several times a week, and she always enjoyed it. ## THE STORY OF BOB: A LESSON IN INTIMACY **Sheila:** Like he always made sure she came to orgasm. But then he would say things like, I don’t understand why we don’t do this more often. It’s so great. You like it so much. Why don’t we do it more often? He constantly said this to her. And over a series of years, she just started wanting it less and less. She still has an orgasm, but she has it maybe once every six weeks. And he says, you know, I would be glad to give up my orgasm so that I can give her pleasure, but she won’t let me. She doesn’t understand that it is how I feel intimate. And I’m reading this and I’m thinking, Okay, so she’s having it several times a week with you, and she’s having a good time, and she’s reaching orgasm, and what do you do? You keep telling her that what she’s doing is wrong and not good enough. And then you tell her that you don’t feel intimate with her unless she’s having it with you. So that means that all the times she feels like she’s connecting with you her way, don’t register with you. And so eventually she’s going to feel really cheap, and she’s going to stop wanting to have it. This woman simply didn’t want it as often. It wasn’t that she didn’t want it. It wasn’t that she didn’t like it. She just didn’t want it as often. He treated that like a problem, and it created a problem. ## INTIMACY AND EMOTIONAL HEALTH: A CRUCIAL CONNECTION **Anne:** So, this is interesting, because many abusive men say the same thing. They say, there’s no problem with me using it. And she’s saying it’s a problem, and then it makes it a problem. The way they interpret these marriage bible references tends to say to women is that you don’t matter as much as I do. If you’re trying to make it a problem, it’s not really a problem. And if I’m trying to make it a problem, it’s for sure a problem. And the one who decides is the man. Whatever his opinion is about it, either way, is just more valid than yours. **Sheila:** Yeah, absolutely, like we said earlier, what is the goal? If the goal is emotional health, then what we want is an emotionally healthy relationship. And an emotionally healthy relationship means you connect not just sexually, but also in other ways. And what often happens today is that many men do not feel any drive for any kind of emotional intimacy. So they’ll play video games for eight hours a day, and then they’ll want it. Like, one of my pet peeves is calling sex intimacy. It is not intimacy. Like, they’re not synonyms. And yet we treat them like they’re synonyms. One of the most depersonalizing, dehumanizing, unintimate things is to have it with someone who is not there with you. Who is fantasizing about someone else, who is obviously not thinking about you. Who is using you. That is the opposite of intimacy. **Anne:** I have been on very few dates, um, since my divorce, but I did go on a date the other night. ## A PERSONAL STORY: PRIORITIZING EMOTIONAL HEALTH **Anne:** And in the course of the date, I said to him, you know, I don’t care if I ever have it. I’m good with it either way. Like it doesn’t matter to me. If I never have it again, it’s fine. And, apparently, you’re not supposed to say this on a date, Sheila. And he spent the rest of the night mansplaining to me how this was not a way to talk to a man on a date. I was going to have a marketing problem, he said. And I said, well, if I’m not selling anything, then I don’t have a marketing problem. So I don’t see what the problem is, because I don’t care what you think about me having it or not. Anyway, it was a very interesting exchange, and the more I thought about it. The more I thought, I’m will say this on every first date. Because it does NOT motivate me at all. I want to be motivated by an intimate emotional relationship, and then if that leads to an intimate relationship sometime in the future, fine. But like it is not my motivation. But it also led me to think that it is this guy’s motivation. And that’s not what I’m looking for. **Sheila:** You know, John Gottman said something interesting in his book, *Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work*. He said he believes the next great stage in human development. The next big breakthrough we’re going to make, is men’s emotional health. That right now men as a whole, and this isn’t me man bashing. This is just simply look at the stats. If you measure relative emotional health, emotional maturity, that sort of thing, women outscore men almost universally. ## WOMEN TEND TO OUTSCORE MEN **Sheila:** And by universally, I don’t mean every woman. I mean, throughout classes, throughout ages, like different age, different demographic groups, women tend to do better than men. Now, obviously there are some men who are extremely emotionally healthy, and there are some women who are not emotionally healthy. But just on the whole, in these different segments, women tend to outscore men. And he thinks this is what’s changing. And I actually believe it. If you look at the way millennial dads parent, and increasingly Gen Z. I’m like how Gen Z dads, the young ones parent, are much more emotionally available. And they’re much more engaged with their kids. You know, this is something that we’re trying to bring home, is that it does not replace intimacy. And often the reason someone has this insatiable drive, they can never get enough. It’s not actually their drive. If they feel insecure, they need it to make them feel better. If they feel bored, they need it to make them feel better. And If they’re worried about rejection or stress, they need it. And they’re not turning to it because they have this urge to feel close to you. **Anne:** Well, and in that case, the partner is just being used to feel better about themselves. So it makes her feel more isolated, more and more used. It can create more and more feelings of resentment and sadness if he’s just thinking about an orgasm. He’s not going to care that it’s miserable for her. **Sheila:** Right. And again, it’s only been more recently that I’ve started listening. That I’ve understood how wrong a lot of our understanding of it is. ## CHANGING BELIEFS **Sheila:** Because you know, when I got married 30 years ago, I believed he needed it to feel love. Because that’s what everyone told me. So if he said I just feel like we never connect, I would feel so guilty. I would feel like he is experiencing a kind of rejection that I will never understand. I’m incapable of understanding how much he needs this because he’s a man and I can’t understand as a woman what a man goes through. And so no matter what I’m experiencing, what he’s experiencing must be worse. Because this is what we’re told, and I played a part in teaching some of that. I did say some of these things. Um, it’s funny. My publisher contracted with my husband and me to write *The Good Guy’s Guide to Great*, because they wanted a companion book. And we were all for that, because we just wanted to tell men how to do this in a healthy way. But I begged them to let me rewrite *The Good Girl’s Guide*. And it was a bit of a fight because it was still selling really well. It’s always sold well since it came out. But I was like, I can’t sell it in all good conscience. Now that I’ve listened to people with that survey of 20, 000, I’ve changed the way I think about libido. The way I think about frequency, and the way I think about intimacy. So they went up several committees, and finally let me rewrite it. And I didn’t get paid anything to do it. I wrote an entirely new book, but I think we’re getting healthier. ## THE IMPORTANCE OF SETTING BOUNDARIES **Sheila:** Like the discussions, so encouraged me that have been happening. And I feel like you and I are on different sides of the same discussion. Like how do we get to what is healthy, and how do we acknowledge what is harmful and deal with it appropriately? **Anne:** Yeah, I remember when I recognized my life was unhealthy, so I stopped initiating it. But I was the one who initiated it all the time. And I told my husband at the time, we’re now divorced, I’m not going to initiate anymore. I need to figure myself out, I’m not blaming this on you. And then he never initiated. There was nothing. He never talked about it. He never said anything. It was like it didn’t exist. And I thought, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait, wait. I’ve been initiating it for seven years, and then I say, hmm, I’ve got to figure some things out. I’m not having a good time anymore. You go ahead if you want, and he never initiated it. So if I tell people that timeline, you could probably say she stopped initiating, they stopped having it. And then within six months he was arrested, and then they got divorced. So was it my fault for stopping it? Many women might think this, and they’re afraid to [set boundaries in marriage](/boundaries-in-marriage/ "set boundaries") with their husband. They’re afraid to say, wait, whoa, I have some needs here. I don’t feel safe. I’m going to step back. They’re afraid of this happening. They don’t want their marriages to fall apart. Their marriages are top priority. ## ABUSE VS. DIVORCE: UNDERSTANDING THE REAL PROBLEM **Anne:** To these women, I want to say, if you take this route and end up divorced like me. I do not want you to get from my story. Don’t have it with your husband equals divorce, and it’s your fault. Or that you’ve done something wrong. Because the problem in my case was that I was not enjoying it because I was being abused. And I stopped having it for good reason, and it was healthy for me to do so. Then I ended up divorced from my abusive spouse. Which is not a bad thing. Even though I don’t necessarily believe in divorce, I certainly don’t believe in being abused. So, many people are like, divorce is the cause of all these problems or whatever. And I’m like, actually abuse is the cause. Like, abuse is the problem. Abuse is the thing that is hurting you. So, just get clear about what is causing the problems. It’s not necessarily you deciding, wait a minute. This isn’t fun for me. **Sheila:** Well, I’ve got two thoughts on that. The first is, again, what is the goal? Things aren’t magically going to get better, because you keep having it and you keep trying to be nicer. If your goal is emotional health, then doing things which protect your emotional health will be helpful in the long run. And, you know, by saying, I’m not going to initiate anymore, what you did was allow a light to be shone in an area where it needed to be shone. because we’re still connecting. ## MAKING HEALTH, PEACE & SAFETY A PRIORITY **Sheila:** But when you stop having it, it lays bare all these other things. And so I don’t think anyone should do that lightly. But if having it causes me emotional unhealth, that needs to be addressed. You need to protect your emotional health. And when you do that, the health of every other part of your relationship is more likely to be evident. **Anne:** My listeners are married to abusive men. So when we’re talking about my particular skills. I don’t want to say that. But when I talk about these listeners, I think their main concern is setting boundaries and being afraid of things getting worse. And it’s true. When you have an abuser and start setting boundaries, things get worse before they get better. And I understand that concern. But I always say if you make health, peace, and safety your priority, you will make your way through the fog. It is a scary road, because you’ve got clergy and people around you, accusing you. What? You didn’t have it with your husband? Like that’s a mortal sin. And you might get accused of being abusive. In fact, I’d say most of our listeners have been accused of being abusers themselves. But the thing to consider is, do I want a life of peace? And you’re never going to know what’s possible until you start making your way toward that. And it might mean you end up divorced, and it might mean you can have a healthy relationship with your husband. That you’ve never had before. Maybe he’ll step up to the plate. We don’t know these things until we start making our way. ## THE ROLE OF PRAYER IN FINDING PEACE **Anne:** And I think it’s interesting that all the pressure is on the woman to not start down that road, rather than being on the man. **Sheila:** And I think there’s a reason for that. There’s a reason why the pressure is on the woman. And that’s because she’s actually invested in saving the marriage. He doesn’t want to save the marriage. He just wants someone to control. The wife often wants to save the marriage. And so she can be convinced to change. They can’t convince him to change, and I think about all the marriage books and bible references that Christian women read desperate to find the formula to change their husband. They read *Power of a Praying Wife*, and they pray so hard. I really had a problem with some of these Christian interpretations, because it had a whole list of husbands that can be changed through prayer. And abusiveness was one of the things that you could pray against. And it’s like, no, honey, if he’s abusive, you don’t just pray against it. You get help. And I would just say to desperate women. I know you want to save your marriage. I know you want things to be better, but please don’t think prayer is the answer. Prayer is the answer to helping you find peace and health. Yes, but God doesn’t force someone else to change. It gives us all free will. You can’t pray your husband to health. God won’t force your husband to change. What God can do, I think, is give you strength, fortitude, wisdom, insight, friends and support. And all kinds of stuff to navigate these roads that are ahead of you. ## PRAY FOR DELIVERANCE **Sheila:** So often we’re searching for that magic formula. That magic way to behave that’s going to change everything. And it just isn’t there. So ultimately, we have to decide, what does emotional health look like for me? Where am I likely to find it? That’s the scary thing. I know, but I hope we don’t add guilt to the mix where you feel like it’s a failure. If you start saying, no, I’m not going to initiate it anymore. it doesn’t mean you’re a bad wife. **Anne:** A good wife sets the bar high for an emotionally healthy, happy marriage. And I’m going to make my way toward that. And if you want to do that, fine, if not, I’m on my way to health, regardless of what you’re going to do. That is what the world’s best wife would do. I always recommend women pray for deliverance. I think that’s the best thing to pray for. Because then God can metaphorically part the Red Sea, and you can walk through. It’s not going to be fun. You’re going to have a lot of opposition, but God can deliver you and make your way out. And in some women’s cases, the deliverance from the abuse may come in the form of their husband changing. It might, but we don’t know what the deliverance is going to look like. I do think deliverance is a prayer God can answer. **Sheila:** Exactly, I love that. That is so good. ## ENCOURAGEMENT FOR WOMEN: SPEAK UP **Sheila:** And, as someone who talks to the other side of this whole issue. How do we get other religious leaders, Christian leaders and society leaders to listen? Because your audience has been crying out for years, and people aren’t listening. And I just want people to know that I’m trying to listen and want a healthy message to get out there. But as a little encouragement, your voices are strong. And I know it feels like everybody is against you. And if things fall apart, you’re going to be blamed, and that often is the case. But in the broader scheme of things, we are seeing people start to wake up to this stuff. So I just want to tell people who, maybe you’re on the other side of abuse. Like speak up, leave book reviews, leave comments on social media. Like let’s be loud, because I think our voices are making a difference. I really do. It might be that in your personal circle, no one’s listening, but in the wider circle, they are. And people often have an easier time listening to strangers than their sister, which is terrible. It shouldn’t be that way, but it’s true. And so there’s probably an abused woman out there praying for someone to get through to their pastor or best friend. You may not get through to your sister, but you might get through to someone else’s sister. And they might get through to your sister. ## FINDING EMOTIONAL HEALTH & SAFETY **Sheila:** So the more we speak up to the strangers, the more we help ourselves in a way. So just be encouraged. I think God does see you, and God’s doing an amazing thing. He’s shaking everything. I think He’s going to war for his daughters. Who have been mistreated, and so take heart and courage. We just want emotional health and safety for people. And if you’re not in that kind of community, then I hope you can find one. Because they are out there, even if they are hard to find, but they are out there. Again, the saddest part is that we’ve stolen God from people. Because when we tell women, God wants you to give your husband it when he wants it. God wants you to perform sexually, so he doesn’t watch pornography. We make God into our abuser, and we make God into the one who is coercing us. So I hope that as women go through the process of deconstructing all these messages. They will realize that was never God’s voice, and that that message hurt God too. Because he never, ever wanted you to feel that. **Anne:** Thank you so much, Sheila. I appreciate all your hard work and willingness to stand for the truth. **Sheila:** Thanks for having me. It’s always a pleasure. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Once You See His Covert Narcissist Traits, Everything Changes](https://www.btr.org/covert-narcissist-traits/) **Published:** July 28, 2026 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Three women share how his behavior seemed fine—until everything started to unravel. **Content:** If you constantly feel confused, exhausted, or to blame for every issue in your relationship, you might be dealing with covert narcissist traits that are difficult to name. Once you see them, everything changes. ## HOW TO SPOT COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS: 5 BEHAVIORS TO NOTICE ### 1. HE’S YOUR INSTANT SOULMATE Notice if your relationship moves incredibly fast, and he seems perfectly tailored just for you. It may be hard to remember this phase if you’ve been married for 10 or 20 years, but think back to when you met. Did it feel very serendipitous? Did it feel like you’d met your soulmate? That part can actually be grooming. Stay with me until the end, where I go into detail about my strategy for spotting this mirroring trap when you are dating. ### 2. CIRCULAR CONVERSATIONS OVER TINY ISSUES You gently ask him to text you if he is going to be late coming home. Somehow, it turns into an exhausting debate about how “you’re so suspicious” or “you don’t appreciate how hard he works.” Instead of discussing plans together, these conversations become emotionally draining loops. It might look like simple “miscommunication” on the surface, but the pattern shows something else. Healthy communication leads to clarity, while this manipulative type of communication leads to pure exhaustion and self-doubt when dealing with covert narcissist traits. ### 3. THE BLAME-SHIFTING VICTIM TRAP If you try to share a concern with a covert narcissist, he’s likely to put it back on to you. That happened to me. I’d tell him maybe that a sarcastic comment hurt my feelings, and the next thing I knew he would tell me that I hurt his feelings without acknowledging what happened to me at all. In my relationship, I would end up apologizing or trying to help him feel better, and meanwhile, my concerns were never addressed. If he’s constantly the misunderstood victim, he’s avoiding taking responsibility for his own bad behavior. ### 4. SPENDING TIME ALONE WITH HIM FEELS DEPLETING You might notice that out and about, you have a good time together, like if you’re going to a movie or doing a project together. A lot of women describe how they might go to a dinner party with him, and everything is great. But the second they get into the car together, alone, he’s like cold, silent, completely disconnected. Maybe blaming her for how the party didn’t go well, even though the party went just fine. Or a vacation with the whole family usually goes pretty well. But if you just take a couple trips, it’s like not fun at all. Healthy relationships usually feel really great in downtime together, but if he has covert narcissist traits, alone time will feel a little weird. ### 5. HE HIDES BEHIND EXPLANATIONS WITH COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS If he continues to do really harmful things that you’ve never done and your healthy friends have never done, and then he explains it away by saying he had a traumatic childhood, or maybe stress from work, maybe an addiction, maybe even anxiety or depression. He might even say he’s struggling, confused, or working on himself. But if the behavior stays the same, those explanations only keep you stuck. Look at what he is actually doing right now to manipulate reality and harm your wellbeing. If you’re unsure if you’re experiencing covert narcissist traits, take our [free emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/) to see if he’s using any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse. Key takeaways from the interview: - **[Early Signs of Covert Narcissist Traits](#narcissists-groom-victims)** - **[When Therapy and Labels Miss Emotional Abuse](#therapy-for-narcissistic-abuse​)** - [**How to Help Victims of Covert Emotional Abuse**](#helping-victims-of-covert-narcissist-abuse) - **[Rebuilding Self-Trust After Covert Narcissist Abuse](#how-to-get-back-to-yourself-after-emotional-abuse)** ## TRANSCRIPT: WHEN YOU SEE HIS COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS EVERYTHING CHANGES **Anne:** I interviewed three women from our community. We’re gonna start with Cynthia’s story, and then after you’re gonna hear from Maisie and Lorna. Welcome. Cynthia. **Cynthia:** Hello, Anne. It’s great to be here. **Anne:** So Cynthia, let’s start with your story. **Cynthia:** In the beginning he was so kind, generous. He had a great relationship with his mum. He was very outgoing and he built a very quick relationship with my mum as well. It made me feel very safe. This is great, like we’re all getting along. I had no idea he was hiding covert narcissist traits. We had a huge fight before the marriage, actually, and he got counseling that week. He came to me and said, “My therapist thinks you are the angry one, actually, not me.” So he’d managed to convince the therapist that I was the bad one. **Anne:** They very easily manipulate therapists. Because there’s lies. And then there’s levels of lies on those lies. We have no way of knowing what somebody said or didn’t say. But it wouldn’t surprise me if the therapist said that. ## COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS APPEAR AFTER THE WEDDING **Cynthia:** absolutely. On the wedding day, his best man talked about him and showed pictures of him. There was one picture that was really awful. My family is quite conservative. I just remember feeling really embarrassed, like, what on earth have I done? Then it was the evening, I went to sleep. He said he was going to say goodbye to people, and I just thought he would come to bed maybe half an hour later, and I woke up at 4:00 AM alone in the bridal suite. Things just got worse from then on. I’d wanted to be a mum since I was seven years old. I was actually going through fertility treatment with him. And he was starting to blame my hormonal imbalance. It was just his way of putting me down every single month. He even got my mum convinced that I was in perimenopause. And at this time, I’d already engaged with a psychologist, because I just felt like this is impossible to do anything with him. I was on antidepressants. We went out for a walk one day and I said, “Okay, so if we’re going on holiday in December and you want to do the fertility treatment in January, does that mean you’re not going to use the sauna in the spa hotel that we’re staying in?” And he was like, “No, no, I still wanna use the sauna. Maybe I’ll just use for one minute.” I said, “Well then we’ll have to wait until April then, ’cause we have to wait then three months after the holiday to do the treatment. ## HE PRIORITIZED HIS PLEASURE OVER MY PAIN **Anne:** So was he like a huge sauna fan before this? When you’re dating and when you’re, first married was he like, “sauna is my life. It is the most important thing to me.” This is a clue for women to look for, this is a piece of the puzzle. If there’s something that he hasn’t really cared that much about before, and then suddenly he’s caring about it a lot, that might be an indication to you that he’s lying. **Cynthia:** In the year leading up to the treatment, he didn’t once use a sauna. Why isn’t he just use the sauna now if he’s desperate? He didn’t. All of a sudden became a tactic for him, I felt, to control me. He knew I desperately wanted a child and I spent thousands on freezing my eggs and all of a sudden using a sauna was more important than that. And you know we were talking about the whole sauna thing for about six weeks. **Anne:** That’s crazy. I just wanna tell you how crazy that is. you’re talking about a sauna for six weeks. It’s so heartbreaking ’cause it feels like he cares about this one thing more than he cares about me, not realizing that he cares about everything more than he cares about us. In the moment, it feels like this is just about that, but they somehow twist it to be well, you don’t want me to enjoy myself on this vacation? You don’t want me to relax. Like, I do everything for you and I work so hard for you, and you won’t even let me have fun on vacation. ## COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS RUIN HOLIDAYS AND VACATIONS **Anne:** The likelihood of a couple therapist saying that this issue is a sign of something deeper, which is true, except for then they would go, that he’s not having his needs met. **Cynthia:** Yeah. **Anne:** That’s where they would’ve gone with it. They wouldn’t have said, he’s just not a good person. Because you’re just asking him not to go in a sauna. Like what is the big deal. It’s so stupid. **Cynthia:** Yeah. **Anne:** Holidays or vacations are something that generally we look forward to. We think we’re going to be able to connect. Although that can happen and sometimes it does. ‘Cause sometimes they amp up the grooming and the vacation is amazing. Generally speaking, vacations are miserable. I had a few of those where I didn’t wanna go. Both times before I told my family, I don’t even wanna go, is gonna go bad? And they were like, “No, of course it’s gonna be fine.” And it went so bad. So I got to a point where I was like, I don’t ever wanna go on vacation with him again. Did you have any good vacations with him? **Cynthia:** Yes, because generally our vacations were with family, so we would always go back to the UK and during that time there was other, people he could get attention from. When it was just me and him alone, it was the worst. ## HOW YOUR HUSBAND HIDES WHAT HE’S REALLY DOING **Cynthia:** The thought of going alone to this place, just the two of us, I was not looking forward to that. What I noticed is that when we had long weekends together, the two of us, I didn’t feel energized. I felt completely depleted. **Anne:** I have a few theories about pornography use related to vacations and weekends. **Cynthia:** I was just going to mention about the pornography. There was pornography use as well. **Anne:** Totally during the weekdays, they’re able to use porn at work, or they’re able to use work as an excuse to use pornography. ![Covert Narcissist Traits](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/covert-narcissist-traits-1024x1024.webp "Covert Narcissist Traits")But like a Saturday and a Sunday, there’s no reason to get away to do porn except manufacture a fight. And even if it doesn’t go super bad, he just isn’t able to connect for that long. that’s as deep as he goes. You’ve reached the bottom of the barrel. But that also might explain why he was okay on vacations with other people. Because when you’re on vacation with more people, you could be talking to your mom or friends, and he could say something like, “Oh, hey, I’m just gonna run over here to the store real quick.” And you wouldn’t say, oh, I’ll go with you. You’d be like, oh, cool. I’ll talk to my mom. When other people are around, he can sneak away, use porn. It’s just way harder to do what he wants to do when you are the only person around. **Cynthia:** And I also noticed a shift in his behavior in the evening, so we would very rarely go to bed together. His excuse was that he wasn’t tired. I think he was using in those times, as well. ## THEY DON’T VIEW WOMEN AS PEOPLE **Anne:** There’s a huge connection between pornography use and men with covert narcissist traits. Women might think their husband’s don’t use pornography, that he [is clean browsing](/what-is-cleanbrowsing/). I’m like, wait, tell me all the clues. And they’ll tell me and I’ll be like, that clue points to pornography. That one points to pornography. So, the likelihood is so high. It also means that they don’t view women as people. **Cynthia:** Oh yeah, absolutely. I remember I had a lot on with work, coming home every night and it was like I was going into this roundabout like round and round and round talking about nothing and never resolving anything. He was traveling a lot. And during that period where he was traveling, I had a bit of mental space. That’s when I discovered Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I wrote this into Google, “When your husband blames you for being upset about his behavior.” And your website came up, Betrayal Trauma Recovery. And I was like, “Wow. I’m being gaslighted.” And that was like my D-Day. That’s when I first started to discover that I was in an abusive relationship. I just started to feel. I’m not alone. It’s not me. I saw the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop](/clarity/). I immediately signed up for it and I did the whole thing, in one night. It’s really easy to follow. ## COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS: HOW LABELING HIM ISN’T HELPFUL **Cynthia:** I was so grateful for the website. [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcast](/podcast/). I was listening to those every day and then I signed up for the [BTR group coaching](/group/). If I hadn’t discovered Betrayal Trauma Recovery, I don’t know what I would’ve done because no psychologist was able to help me. BTR Group sessions were better therapy for me than a therapist, because I felt understood. I have not met any therapist that can explain things in the way that you’re able to, Anne. I really appreciate that because I feel like some of these tags, are being overly used these days. **Anne:** Those labels tend to explain why he does it rather than focusing on just the plain old fact that he does it. It doesn’t matter why he is abusive, he’s abusive. I don’t really care why he’s lying. He’s lying. I like focusing on what is happening rather than why it’s happening. Because the focus on why tends to end up accidentally taking women into, well then if I understand the why, like he’s a narcissist or he has childhood trauma or something, then you keep your focus on him. like, how can I help him? Or how can I solve this? Even how do I explain it to other people? Which still keeps you in that vortex. **Cynthia:** Yeah. My psychologist didn’t really understand what was happening. ## SUPPORT OF THE BETRAYAL TRAUMA RECOVERY GROUP SESSIONS **Cynthia:** I remember hearing, one of the podcasts when you interviewed another lady and she was saying about going in this roundabout. You get into a discussion and you can’t get off the roundabout. And it got to the stage where every time I came home from work, it was like I was being sucked into the black hole again. Discussing something and never resolving it. The support of the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group](/group/) sessions made me realize that this is someone who doesn’t care about me or my feelings. And I also had a Betrayal Trauma Recovery [one-on-one coaching session](/individual/) with one of the [BTR coaches](https://www.btr.org/individual/) to decide, should I really just separate from this man? I’m living a normal life now, and able to go out and socialize. I’m promoting this to every woman that is in an abusive cycle. **Anne:** Thank you. You and women like you are exactly why I do this, because we’re the same. I went through the same thing. I know the confusion. And it’s just awful when you go to therapy and you can’t get help or when you’re going to clergy and they’re giving you the wrong information. It’s so hard to navigate. So thank you for your support. Thank you for sharing this. ‘Cause, if more women knew about it, I think we could really save women from years of pain in dealing with their husband’s covert narcissist traits. **Cynthia:** I would not have been able to recover without all of the material that you have. Especially, during the divorce process. It really helped me because I decided to use the best solicitor I could find that could manage the transaction with him. Removing myself from having any interaction with him, really helped. ## HE’S USING HER INTERNAL WARNING SYSTEM AGAINST HER **Cynthia:** So I can live my happy life now. **Anne:** That is my life mission. It’s what I focus on every day, all day long. **Cynthia:** I have a really good friend her [daughter is in an abusive relationship](/daughter-in-an-abusive-relationship/) cycle, and she’s bought the BTR Workshop. But the problem we have is we can’t get her to Betrayal Trauma Recovery . Because she thinks that maybe we’re pushing her for the divorce and we’re not doing that. And what I say to my friend is, ” Well, the great thing about Betrayal Trauma Recovery is they don’t promote divorce, actually. Your daughter can keep herself safe and protect the children. So anyway, I bought her the Workbook. She’s gonna be fine when she sees the truth, but she doesn’t want to educate herself on what to do. **Anne:** I wouldn’t even say she doesn’t want to, she’s naturally being very confused. That is going to feel bad. I’ve talked to so many women who say something like, I’ve been praying and praying and praying about it, and it just can’t be that because it doesn’t feel right. I get that because we need to get back in touch with our intuition. Your intuition is warning you, something’s wrong. You can feel that and they’re interpreting it through, “Well, it’s wrong. And so I’m gonna keep trying to talk to him, I’m gonna keep trying to work this out.” So he’s using her internal, warning system against her. Of course it’s going to feel bad. It’s abuse and even when you’re doing the right thing, it’s still going to feel bad. ## IT’S ONLY GOING TO WORK WHEN SHE’S READY **Cynthia:** I have this other friend who’s been in this cycle for six years. I keep sending her your podcast. It’s too scary for her. There must be thousands and thousands of women like this, feeling in this fog, and they just can’t get out. So when she’s ringing up her mum to say, “Hey, Chuck just did this, he just screamed at me or punched the wall.” What can the mum say to help her? Is there anything apart from just listening? **Anne:** Listening’s good to help women deal with the confusion around their husband’s covert narcissist traits. I found that women I meet in my congregation, for example, I’ll be like, I know what to do here. And I take it over to them. They don’t tend to watch it. Because they’re like, I don’t need this. I’ve got my therapist kind of a thing. And that’s really sad. ’cause then I see them in that same cycle for years and years and years. And I keep asking, have you watched it? And they’re like, no, I don’t have time. So it’s women like you who are like, I’m gonna enroll in this. Who actually see the value in it. **Cynthia:** The sad thing about that though is the [BTR Workshop](/clarity/), it doesn’t just make you feel seen. It also can help you prevent being with an unhealthy person in the future. Whether that be a friend, whether it be, unhealthy family members. Once you start to know the signs, there’s so many self reflective exercises. It’s very empowering, for women to go through that. Especially when they’re in a time of need. I agree with you. That’s why I said to my friend, “It’s only gonna work when she’s ready.” ## IF THEIR HUSBAND HAS BEEN MANIPULATING THEM WITH COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS **Anne:** The other problem is that if their husband has been manipulating them and using covert narcissist traits. And they’re going to a therapist. They’ve gone to multiple therapists, they’ve gone to multiple clergy and they’ve tried all these things. Everyone is like, “This is what to do.” And it never works. Then why in the world would this random lady be the answer? She’s just like everyone else. What else is she gonna tell me? It’s really hard to be like, I promise the [BTR Workshop](/clarity/) is nothing like anything you’ve seen before. **Cynthia:** Absolutely. **Anne:** Not what any therapist is gonna tell you. Because they haven’t experienced it, they can’t really understand what I’m talking about. I had to set it up step by step to really understand it. Because there’s no way to just explain it. It goes into extreme depth, but it’s very clear. If I try to explain it without the videos, which I did for years. It just got all muddled up. **Cynthia:** No, you need the videos. **Anne:** Because the visual, seeing it is what helps it click for women. **Cynthia:** I was wondering, as we’re talking now for all these women that are going to these therapists. How about if they were educated on this? Because it feels like that’s really the only avenue to reach those women watching the workshop videos. ## I STARTED FEELING BETTER AS I DID THE BTR WORKSHOP **Anne:** I’ve had people do it, then they go to therapy. Or do other things like [art therapy](/art-therapy-for-trauma/). And do that for years. And then they’re like, oh, wait, wait, wait. There was that Workshop. I gotta do that again. They do it again. And they’re like, Ah! **Cynthia:** What I loved about the whole thing, is I needed help immediately when I had my D-Day discovery, where I was like, wow, I’m being gaslit. So I have this recording now. I wanted to know what I could do, and the [BTR Workshop](/clarity/) enabled me to just do that. And I think I started, eight in the evening and I couldn’t stop. I was starting to feel better as I was working through it. Like, wow, I’m starting to see the light and I feel good. I’ve had very expensive therapists. I’m talking thousands for just a weekend retreat. And the Workshop helped me tenfold. Because I was able to have the tools to take care of me. **Anne:** I appreciate you and any of the other listeners out there who are getting the word out about BTR, to everybody that you can, because I kind of get lumped in the same category as maybe like a covert narcissist traits influencer or something. Rather than realizing the services that we have here and the information in the workshop is very solid. **Cynthia:** Oh yeah. **Anne:** Rather than just “selling some online course.” ## IT TAKES YOU ON A JOURNEY OF DISCOVERY **Cynthia:** Yeah, it’s been very well thought out, and it takes you on a journey of discovery about your husband’s or your partner’s true character. And then it gives you specific tools, to protect yourself from covert narcissist traits so you’re in a safe place. It’s for women that are in a relationship that don’t want to leave the relationship to protect themselves at home, maybe [in home separation](/in-home-separation/). It’s for women that want to educate themselves, that want to understand why they’ve been feeling like they’ve been living in this fog. When I’ve been joining the group sessions, there’s been women of all different stages of the recovery. There’s people like me that were in the initial discovery. For me, the workshop is the beginning of the recovery journey, and you really have to start there to know that you are not the problem. I mean, it’s the most amazing thing I’ve done. It’s better than anything. It’s helped me the most in my life. **Anne:** Thank you. It’s such an honor to hear your story and it feels really good that it’s helping people. Especially because sometimes I feel like I have this amazing information and there’s also no risk. There’s a lot of risk to therapy. It’s expensive and it’s a lot of time. And I don’t think people realize how risky it is. Whereas our [BTR Workshop](/clarity/) is zero risk. It’s not too expensive, and it doesn’t take a ton of time. And listening to the [Betrayal Trauma Podcast](/podcast/) is also zero risk. There’s just this one little tiny risk, and that is that your whole life might change. **Cynthia:** Yeah. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS CAN BE EXHAUSTING AND CONFUSING **Anne:** I guess that is the risk. And that seems too risky, maybe for some people. Anyway, thank you Cynthia. I so appreciate your help, and spreading the word and sharing your story today. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. **Cynthia:** Thank you. It’s been wonderful to be here. And please, uh, continue doing all the great work you’re doing. **Anne:** I’m so grateful to Cynthia for sharing her story. Her experience shows how exhausting and confusing these covert narcissist traits can be when you’re in the thick of it. So next we’re gonna shift gears a little bit. One question I hear often from women who are doing the work of healing is, “How do you start trusting yourself again and how do you make sure you don’t miss those subtle red flags of this covert narcissism if you ever start dating again?” Two other members of our community, Maisie and Lorna talk about what these patterns look like if you’ve left a narcissistic abuser. But before we hear their stories, I’m gonna share a little bit about my own dating history. **Anne:** I didn’t get married until I was 30 and I dated so much before I met my ex-husband. At that time, I thought I had a really strong self worth. When I met him, was like, this is the man I’ve been waiting for. I have no regrets. ## EXPERIENCE WITH COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS WHILE DATING **Anne:** I’m so grateful that I married my ex because I wouldn’t have my kids or the life that I have now without his amazing contributions that he’s made to my knowledge about emotional and psychological abuse and narcissists. Um, I’m not gonna diagnose my ex as a narcissist per se, but when you read the definition of narcissist, he definitely has those characteristics. So I don’t really want to go back in time to avoid marrying him. But I didn’t do some things that I would do now if I were dating. My main problem was I laid it out on the table. This is exactly what I want. I would talk a lot. And my talking was the perfect setup because all they had to do was agree with me and nod their heads. And I thought I’d met the man of my dreams. If I date now, I don’t say very much, and I ask them questions and then observe , because I don’t want to put all my cards on the table and say, I love Star Wars. Me too. I love Indiana Jones. Me too. Rather I say, what kind of movies do you like? When you’re having a conversation with them, do they ask you questions about yourself and your life or do they monologue and then they let you monologue. So you feel like they’re a really good listener because you talk and talk and talk and they listen. Try pulling back on your conversation and just see if he listens, when you just say one thing. Okay. I want to do this and then pause. And see how he responds when you give very short answers without a lot of context or without a lot of explanation. ## MAISIE TELLS HER STORY **Anne:** Maisie, can you tell us just a tiny bit of your story about dealing with covert narcissist traits in relationships? **Maisie:** I was married for 10 years. Even before I was actually married, I had maybe three bad relationships, one which was violent. The guys I have tended to get in relationships with have been just emotionally unavailable or not being able to show affection. Women can get confused. And I think that’s probably why I was confused before I really researched it to try and help myself is. People think abuse is just violence or really severe mental abuse. [Is infidelity abuse?](/is-infidelity-abuse/) Actually like a lot of intricate parts of a relationship, someone cheating on you or someone being emotionally unavailable and withholding affection and you know you come home and they just don’t want to be around you or don’t want to talk to you and that kind of thing is abusive. So I didn’t really know that I had low self esteem. I knew there was something not right. Cause you ask yourself, why does this keep happening to me? I have two children now, two daughters. That’s with my husband, who I was with. And when we split up and I ended that relationship, I was really at rock bottom. That’s probably the lowest point I’ve ever been. That was only three years ago. We separated. And I think the whole year I must have read about a hundred self help books. I mean I just read night and day. Every spare minute I had, I read. I didn’t really go out much or socialize. I thought I have to help myself because there’s something wrong here. ## IT ISN’T UNTIL YOU HIT ROCK BOTTOM THAT YOU DO SOMETHING **Maisie:** Because of all these continuous cycles I was putting myself in. I think that’s what can happen with a lot of women. You go along, you think you’re fine, you’re fine, you’re fine, you’re fine, and it isn’t until you hit rock bottom that you’ll actually do something about it. Doing everything I could to help me, and I remember at the time thinking, I wish there was somewhere I could go, something affordable. I was on my own with my two children, just ended the marriage, so finances and everything was changing for me. Obviously, at the same time, I was also working as a domestic abuse advocate, so I’m working with high risk victims at work, and I’m going through my own thing as well. It just made me completely reflect on everything, with everything that I’d researched and, you know, learned for myself, trying to pull myself out of this hole. **Anne:** When you set out to discover what your “problem” was, you discovered that you do not have a problem. **Maisie:** That’s right. Yeah. ## TRUSTING YOURSELF AGAIN AFTER EXPERIENCING COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS **Anne:** . Lorna , can you speak to that for a little bit? **Lorna:** Yeah, when you’re in a relationship like that, all you do is overcompensate, you’re always thinking it’s your fault, you should be doing more, you should be a better person. It’s almost like your whole life revolves around trying to please this person. When you get to that rock bottom place, I’ve been in exactly the same place, where I want to just be out of this universe. I felt like I cannot deal with this pain anymore. My ex partner, who I have children with, he was exactly the same. We have a very similar story with that. I just couldn’t believe that I had children with a person who treated me so badly. Thinking, okay, well, he’s doing this because of who I am. It’s not because of who he is. It was exhausting. I would do everything I could to try and please this person. It never happened, until one day I just thought, I cannot do this anymore. Or I thought it was going to kill me, I did. Now looking back, I think there must have been some kind of inner strength within you to do that. All I could do was really reflect on and think to myself, I cannot allow this to happen to me again. I only live once. I need to have the best quality of life for me and my children. And I will never allow that to happen again. And I can’t control what he done. I can’t control about what half the men do out there. But I can control how I act on it, and I can control my happiness. And I am on my own now. ## HE SAYS HE’S GOING TO CHANGE **Lorna:** And all I think about is my own happiness and my children’s happiness. **Maisie:** When you’re in a good place and you’re going into a relationship. It’s a win win situation. A few years ago, I don’t know what I was willing to tolerate. I would just see, oh, this guy’s gorgeous, oh, he’s got a good job, he’s so nice, he’s treating me so amazing. And then I could find out, oh, well, he may be cheating on me. Oh, okay, well, I’ll just give him another chance. I’ll just give him one more chance. He’s saying he’s going to change. So I’ll just give him one more chance. So that’s why Know your worth and know your boundaries. **Anne:** When women really know their worth. Many abusers accuse them of being selfish, or prideful or not respecting men. What are your thoughts about dating after recovering from being abused by someone with covert narcissist traits? **Lorna:** It’s a peaceful silence within you. All your power and all the light comes from within. A lot of the times, the narcissist is the light and life of the party. I think a lot of people that you do see as really outgoing, they’ve got lots of issues right underneath. And no matter what kind of personality you have, if you stick to your beliefs and your values, you live by what you believe, because you’re not going against anything just to please other people. **Maisie:** It can be misconstrued even by women that they think, yeah, you’re manipulating a situation. This is treating men badly. No, it’s not. It’s all about you knowing what you’re worth, having the ability to be able to make choices and be confident about them. ## GIVING PEOPLE THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT **Maisie:** I mean, I never used to be able to make a decision. I used to have to run to my mum forever. Mum, I don’t know what to do. Like, should I do this? Should I do that? And now I’m like, it’s my decision. Women have got a lot to give. **Anne:** Yeah, after covert narcissist traits abuse, you might have that value conflict of being confident in what you want, but then also giving people the benefit of the doubt or wanting people to like you. And that’s totally understandable. something I always say to my kids and something that I apply in dating. Don’t put your best foot forward because you don’t want them to fall in love with your foot. You want them to fall in love with you. Well, I appreciate you reaching out. Thank you so much for sharing just a tiny bit of your story. **Maisie:** Well, thank you for having us. **Lorna:** Thank you so much. It’s been lovely. **Anne:** And to our listeners, think about what you think women should look for after narcissistic abuse. If you relate, comment below. ​ **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast **Tags:** abusive relationship, emotional abuse, gaslighting --- ### [I Dislike My Husband Even Though He's "Better"](https://www.btr.org/i-dislike-my-husband/) **Published:** August 4, 2026 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** After years of your husband's repeated promises to change, this episode helps you discern whether his improvement is real or just another cycle. **Content:** If you’ve been thinking, “I dislike my husband,” but you feel guilty about it because he’s supposedly improved himself lately, here’s what you need to know. ## WHY DISLIKING YOUR HUSBAND MAY SIGNAL SOMETHING DEEPER Here’s the thing: if you dislike your husband, you’re not weird and you certainly haven’t done anything wrong. But I bet you’ve been asking yourself… - Why do I dislike my husband when he’s trying? - Is this normal resentment? - Am I too unforgiving? - Or is my intuition picking up on something deeper? In emotionally abusive relationships, there may be times when he apologizes or he may use language he learned in therapy to make it sound like he’s making progress. But real change is measured by consistent patterns over time, not short bursts of “Mr. Nice Guy.” ## IT’S OKAY TO DISLIKE HIM EVEN IF HE’S GETTING THERAPY If it’s unclear whether he’s emotionally abusive, or not, take this [free emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). Feeling like “I dislike my husband” may not mean you’ve fallen out of love. It may mean you’re having a reaction to a person who no longer feels emotionally safe to be around. This is exactly what we walk through in the **[Clarity After Betrayal Workshop](https://www.btr.org/clarity/ "Clarity After Betrayal: What You Need To Know")**, how to discern the difference between if your husband can really change into someone you could enjoy being around and how to evaluate emotional safety without pressure to stay or leave. ![Here's How To Tell If Your Husband Will Change](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Heres-How-To-Tell-If-Your-Emotionally-Abusive-Husband-Will-Change.webp "Heres How to Tell if Your Emotionally Abusive Husband Will Change")Whether victims stay married, separate from, or divorce a man they dislike, boundaries are absolutely essential in protecting women and their children from further harm. ## BTR.ORG SUPPORTS VICTIMS OF EMOTIONALLY ABUSIVE HUSBANDS For women who choose to stay married wondering [“can my husband change](/can-my-husband-change/) into someone I like?” We believe that as women educate themselves about trauma and abuse, they are better equipped to make informed decisions and become empowered to begin their journeys to healing. Tune in to [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/betrayal-trauma-recovery/id1118969643) to learn more about the real, valid reasons you probably have to dislike your husband. ## TRANSCRIPT: I DISLIKE MY HUSBAND **Anne:** Welcome to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. A member of our community, Cece is here to share her story about the emotional whiplash so many women experience after betrayal, when apologies and effort create hope, but something still feels off. How do you know if he’s truly changing? If you’re sitting with that quiet tension, thinking, “I dislike my husband, but don’t want to feel this way.” So what am I supposed to do now?” You’re not alone. So Cece, you’ve experienced this whiplash, and you’re gonna talk about your story today. Welcome. **Cece:** Hi Anne, thanks for having me on. **Anne:** I’m so grateful for women who share their stories. For many listeners who quietly wonder, *“I dislike my husband… but he says he’s changing,”* conversations like this matter. I’m honored to talk with you about how to tell whether an emotionally abusive husband can truly change. So Cece, you’re divorced now, but let’s start at the beginning—when you first met your husband. How did you feel about him at that time? **Cece:** So I went to a Christian college, and there was a lot of the purity culture stuff going on there. I had grown up with an alcoholic dad and was kind of a scapegoat in my family of origin. So my self-esteem was at the bottom of the barrel, unfortunately. But he and I were friends, and we got to be friends the first week of my sophomore year in college. He was a freshman. He was actually studying to become a youth pastor. So when I met him, I thought, oh, he’s this nice Christian guy. He had a girlfriend at the time, and I was not interested in him like that. We really did hit it off as friends. ## EARLY “GREEN FLAGS” THAT LATER MADE ME QUESTION EVERYTHING **Cece:** And I didn’t see any red flags at that point in his character. Interestingly enough, he was dating a girl in my hall. It was actually an abusive relationship where she was abusing him. Which made me think he could never be that way towards someone else. **Anne:** Really quick, what made you think she was abusing him as you’re observing this? **Cece:** I would see the way she would talk to him, and she actually hit him a couple of times. So it was very serious. And other people were witnesses to those things even when I wasn’t, so… **Anne:** The reason why I ask that is that we don’t know what he was doing to her. ![is This Why I Dislike My Husband](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Can-You-Tell-If-Your-Emotionally-Abusive-Husband-Is-Going-To-Change.webp "Can You Tell if Your Emotionally Abusive Husband is Going to Change")**Cece:** Right. **Anne:** A lot of times when you see a woman doing that. It could be that she’s resisting abuse, and you don’t know what happened before that. **Cece:** That is possible, but just from what I observed, it seemed like he was just a people pleaser. And he was always just bowing down to her every whim. That’s what is looked like from the outside. Once they broke up, he actually pursued me. And I just was caught off guard at that point. And thought, oh, he’s one of my best friends, let me just think about this. But he waited a long time for me, respectful of all my boundaries. Especially the physical boundaries were really important to me. Because I knew I wanted to wait, even for engagement. Because I had some bad experiences in the past in High School. where guys pushed boundaries. And he didn’t do that. So I thought, oh, that’s a green flag. ## I DISLIKE MY HUSBAND, DOES THAT MEAN HE’S EMOTIONALLY ABUSIVE OR THAT I’M BURNT OUT? **Cece:** I guess a couple of the red flags I saw before we were married were emotional immaturity. Which I didn’t know at the time. I think just because I couldn’t even spot the red flags having grown up in an abusive home. I thought, oh, this is how guys are. And at one point he called me out of the blue and was like, “Hey, I don’t have any food. I need you to take me to the store.” I said, “Oh, well I have something going on today or I have to study or something.” ![How Can You Really Tell if Your Emotionally Abusive Husband Will Change](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-Can-You-Tell-If-Your-Emotionally-Abusive-Husband-Will-Change.webp "How Can You Tell if Your Emotionally Abusive Husband Will Change")And he would not take no for an answer. I said, “Can’t you get someone else to take you? Can’t you call another friend?” “Oh no, you have to take me or else.” He just really put so much guilt on me. And said it was a food emergency. ## WHY IT’S OKAY TO DISLIKE YOUR HUSBAND **Anne:** It’s a food… I’m sorry. That’s funny. It’s a food emergency. Before marriage, you didn’t know he would be abusive. Plus everyone says [will couples counseling work](/will-couples-counseling-work/). **CeCe:** right. And nobody could take him but me. So I just went ahead and did it, but I felt really just. I think it was love bombing, but honestly, it didn’t seem like he was trying to manipulate at that point. It seemed like he was immature, I guess. And so, you know, he would mirror me a lot too. I was into poetry, and I think he just took all my interests in. You know, and thought, oh wow, she’s such a cool girl. I want to be interested in everything she is. And it made me think, we’re into the same things, like, I think we’re gonna be the perfect match. For many women, “I dislike my husband” starts much later, after the mirroring fades and the control begins. ## EXPERIENCING LOVE BOMBING & MIRRORING **Anne:** Mirroring is the worst. I did not realize it back when I was dating before I got married. So I would be like an open book, and men would be like, me too, me too. Now I like to sit back. Well, not that I date, I do not date. So don’t get that impression. But when I meet people, I like to sit back and ask them what they think first. Because I know I’m not going to mirror them. I’m going to be like, cool. I’m glad you like that. I don’t like it, but congratulations. I’m not going to be like, me too, if I hate it. ![Here's How To Tell If Your Emotionally Abusive Husband Is Truly Changing](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Heres-How-To-Tell-If-Your-Emotionally-Abusive-Husband-Is-Changing.webp "Heres How to Tell if Your Emotionally Abusive Husband is Changing")**Cece:** Yes, for sure. And he did tell me, actually, before marriage, that he had an online explicit material problem. Now, I did not know what that meant. I thought, well, you know, guys struggle with lust. That’s what I’d been led to believe. So, it’s a struggle for him, but I think he can overcome it. So I was very naive at that point. **Anne:** So you married at some point. When do things start to go south? Like where you recognize, oh, [something feels off](https://www.btr.org/feel-off-meaning/ "something feels off"). Worrying If your emotionally abusive husband can change or not? **Cece:** We married right after graduation. It was about a month after we were sitting on the couch, and housework was already an issue. It was like he was, he would leave all these messes just for me to clean up. He treated me like a maid and stuff. I thought, well, I guess this is just a sacrifice I have to make being married. But I was frustrated. ## WHEN THINGS CHANGED AFTER OUR WEDDING, I REALIZED “I DISLIKE MY HUSBAND” **Cece:** And so we’re sitting on the couch, and he spills this bag of trail mix on the couch. I was at my breaking point that day, just with all his messes. And I was like, well, I guess I’ll get the Dustbuster and clean this up. And he hit me with a flip flop. Isn’t that crazy? He took his flip flop and hit my leg and made this red welt on it. **Anne:** Not like, gently. ![How You Can Know if Your Emotionally Abusive Husband is Legitmately Changing](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-You-Can-Know-If-Your-Emotionally-Abusive-Husband-Will-Change.webp "How You Can Know if Your Emotionally Abusive Husband Will Change")**Cece:** No, I mean, it was like he wanted to punish me. And immediately, I just said, we need to go to our pastor about this. We have to tell somebody, I am not going to put up with this, because I knew it was only going to get worse. That was a wake up call. So we went to our pastor, and he said, “You need to go to anger management.” And he set him up with an anger management class. And then he said, “You need to have a plan for where you’re going to go if he continues to do this. You know, you need to figure out a neighbor or somebody you can stay with immediately.” **Anne:** You’re resisting abuse. Immediately, you’re going for help. You’re like, this is not right. So you’re doing your job, which is resisting abuse. So the person you go to for help says, “Put yourself in the position where this could happen again and wait and see if he will change. And have a plan, if it does.” Rather than, don’t put yourself in this position again, oh. **Cece:** Definitely, my husband went to the class, and he was actually able to largely stop the physical abuse. There were a few more rage incidents. ## ANGER MANAGEMENT LOOKED LIKE CHANGE–BUT IT WASN’T REAL CHANGE Where he would pull back the shower curtain if I was in the shower and yell at me, or he would just restrain me, things like that. And I would fight back sometimes, but I quickly realized, this is dangerous. I’m not gonna fight back. Then, after learning some techniques, I guess he stopped that form of abuse. And I think I was confused, because I thought, well, the abuse has stopped, we’re good. And he’s becoming a new man and making changes. ![How Can You Know if Your Emotionally Abusive Husband is Legitmately Changing](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-Can-You-Know-If-Your-Emotionally-Abusive-Husband-Will-Change.webp "How Can You Know if Your Emotionally Abusive Husband Will Change")Soon after, I got pregnant with my first child that November. So we married in June, and then in November, I got pregnant. At that point, I was teaching, I was working full time, and I was so tired. You know how in your first trimester, it’s just you’re wiped out. And so, he was still being a slob, and he was actually in school, going through a different program at this point. And just working part time. So he was home most of the day. He wouldn’t do any laundry. He wouldn’t do any cleaning. I was like holding down the fort basically with all the housework and working full time. Plus dealing with pregnancy and exhaustion. I remember I was folding a load of laundry one day, just crying because I thought I had no help at this point. And I just felt so alone and lost. But I also had a D-Day at that point, and I can’t remember what exactly it was, but I think I did find online explicit material again. At this point I’m starting to think my husband won’t be able to change his harmful behaviors. ## DISCOVERY DAYS, “RECOVERY TALK,” AND WHY I DISLIKE MY HUSBAND **Anne:** Well, I’m going to pause you, right? If someone listens to this podcast for the first time, I just want to define D-Day quickly. D-Day stands for Discovery Day. But clearly it’s also a double meaning, because it’s the day your world sort of falls apart. So you’ve got a D-Day in that you’re discovering explicit material. **Cece:** So, some people have, like, one major D-Day. I had dozens, probably. And I think that was the death by a thousand cuts. At that point, I had actually heard from one of my friends. Her husband was in SA which is a program for men with addictions, and she was in S-Anon, which was the complimentary program for wives. She told me how much it helped both of them. She thought her emotionally abusive husband had changed. ![How Do You Know when Your Emotionally Abusive Husband Will Legitmately Change](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-Do-I-Know-If-My-Emotionally-Abusive-Husband-Will-Change.webp "How Do I Know if My Emotionally Abusive Husband Will Change")And I thought, okay, maybe there’s hope here. I mean, he was just totally checked out. It seemed like being selfish, not caring what I had to say. And I said, “You need to go to S. A. and you need a sponsor.” And he did it, so I thought, okay, things are going in the right direction. But although he would pay lip service to it a lot, telling me how much he had learned and how much it helped him, I did not see any changes in his actions. So it was discouraging, especially just seeing how he was putting basically zero effort. **Anne:** Um, so this whole time you’re resisting the abuse, you’re trying to get help, you’re trying to figure it out. In your efforts to resist abuse, did you reach out for help with clergy or with couple therapy? Anything like that? ## I DISLIKE MY HUSBAND: WONDERING WHAT HE’S REALLY DOING WHEN I’M NOT AROUND **Cece:** Yeah, I was trying to get help from the ladies in S-Anon, but it didn’t resonate with me. There was one incident that stuck out to me that year. I came home unexpectedly from work. And I walked in on him and I was like, what the heck is going on? He says, “No, I swear I’m not talking to someone. I just, I’m being dumb, this was just stupid. I was just trying to figure out what size I am. And in that moment, I remember thinking, *Who did I even marry? Who is this man?* I drove back to school in tears and was completely checked out the rest of the day. That was a turning point. I started realizing I didn’t actually know who my husband was when I wasn’t around. That’s when the starting realizing, *I don’t like my husband*. And it kind of freaked me out. ![How to Know when My Emotionally Abusive Husband is Really Changing](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-Do-I-Know-If-My-Emotionally-Abusive-Husband-Is-Changing.webp "How Do I Know if My Emotionally Abusive Husband is Changing")**Anne:** Being obsessed with your penis size is definitely a sign of addiction. So, of course, you didn’t know that at the time, but like, how alarming is that? He obviously wasn’t changing his abusive behaviors. **CeCe:** It definitely was. Like many other incidents, I just thought I had to make this work somehow, even though it became more and more traumatic. I didn’t even know who he was or what he was doing when I was not around. **Anne:** And knowing that was how you were resisting, you’re resisting any way that you know how. But you don’t know how to define it. **Cece:** Yeah, that’s true. ## I DISLIKE MY HUSBAND: STARTING MARRIAGE COUNSELING WITH FALSE HOPE **Anne:** Realize that you were trying to figure it out the entire time, and then you run into these roadblocks all the time. So when people ask like, why do I dislike my husband, why didn’t you just get out? Be like, I was trying to get help, but I went to a therapist, and the therapist told me to communicate better. So, It’s so hard. What do you think is going on at this time? In your efforts to make yourself safe? And wondering if your husband will change? What are you telling yourself? ![How to Know if Your Emotionally Abusive Husband is Really Changing](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-Do-I-Know-If-My-Emotionally-Abusive-Husband-Is-Really-Changing.webp "How Do I Know if My Emotionally Abusive Husband is Really Changing")**Cece:** I think at that point, I was telling myself he’s got a serious problem. He needs somebody to get through to him, and I hope it’s his sponsor or counselor at that point. Because we started going to individual and marriage counseling. With our marriage counselor, it seemed like she would have been helpful. But she never got to the root of the problem. I don’t blame her, because I don’t think she was informed about what was going on. There was one session that I just remember her talking about trust and how important that is. I was like, we need to go for more of this because she had been talking about fondness and admiration. It was like this kind of triangle and I can’t remember who came up with that, but it was like a couple’s triangle where you were getting closer together and closer to God and you had to go up the triangle. But I was thinking we’re not even at the bottom right now because of how he’s actively destroying our marriage. ## COUNSELING DIDN’T HELP MY HUSBAND CHANGE **Cece:** Yeah, I definitely did not feel helped by that. With my individual counselor, I think it was helpful to start unraveling my family of origin stuff. Cause I thought I would have saved my marriage at all costs. I don’t want my trauma to be a factor in this. I don’t want to get in the way of anything we’re doing together. My marriage was my number one priority the whole time. And so I thought I needed to heal from my past. ![How Will I Know if My Emotionally Abusive Husband's Changes Are Real?](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-Do-I-Know-If-My-Emotionally-Abusive-Husbands-Changes-Are-Real.webp "How Do I Know if My Emotionally Abusive Husbands Changes Are Real")**Anne:** We have found that most marriage therapists don’t get to the heart of the problem. And then even if they do, let’s pretend like the therapist. Is like, okay, he’s abusive. The solution is also not going to work, because they say, okay, why are you abusive? And they’ll give reasons. Oh, my childhood trauma. Instead of saying no, there are people who experienced childhood trauma and they’re not abusive. So no, that’s not why you’re abusive. Oh, this happened. No, that’s not the reason. You chose this. So therapy isn’t good for abusers. Their choices over time to have created this type of character and to give them validation. Like, now it makes sense that you’re abusive because of your childhood trauma. But now let’s not be abusive anymore. That’s not what they need. They just dig themselves deeper and deeper. Instead of realizing, I made choices over time based on entitlement. I have a thinking problem that is not due to anything that happened to me. I am just a misogynistic, exploitative abuser, and I need to change. Even if you did get to the root of the problem, they’re abusive. ## I DISLIKE MY HUSBAND: WHY EMOTIONAL SAFETY MUST COME BEFORE DECIDING IF HE’LL CHANGE **Anne:** How would you help him with that? By validating his childhood trauma because you had childhood trauma. Were you abusive? No, did you lie? No, so the whole therapy thing for an abuser does not make sense. **Cece:** Right, and if somebody had told me that I was living with abuse, it would have made so much sense to me. Like I could have figured things out so much faster. I remember during our [marriage counseling, I told the counselor](https://www.btr.org/best-marriage-counseling-near-me-for-couples/) this. I said, “I’m not suicidal, but I honestly wish one of us would die so that I could get out of this misery.” Thinking, *I dislike my husband,* and then immediately feeling guilty for even having that thought. Good wives don’t feel that way. So I assumed I must be the problem. **Anne:** Yeah, that’s very common. What did the counselor say? **Cece:** She just empathized with me and said, “Oh yeah, this is really serious.” ![Here's How To Tell If Your Husband Will Change: What You Need To Know](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/oeMVZ5334VE/maxresdefault.jpg) **Anne:** Did she say, you are abused? **Cece:** Never, when my oldest was one, I got pretty sick. Because my immune system was not good at that point, just with all the stress. During that illness, I remember having this sudden clarity, like this is not of God, what’s going on. And I believe He spoke to me in that moment, when I felt so physically terrible, somehow I could hear the Holy Spirit better. And, He was like, This is not what I want for your life. This is not a marriage that glorifies me, that is what I believe the Holy Spirit told me. I just remember thinking, okay, I need to come up with a plan, and not try to get him to change. ## MORE D-DAYS & EMOTIONAL WITHDRAWAL, AWAKENING & PLANNING **Cece:** I was so ashamed. I didn’t want to return to my family of origin. I didn’t want to rely on them for any help. And I was also thinking, there are so many people who supported our marriage. What would they think if I separated from him? So I just felt stuck. We eventually got back to the status quo, and I got pregnant with baby number two. I did have more D-days after that. There was one specifically at a friend’s house. We were having a Superbowl party there, and I just grabbed his phone to look something up. It was just, I wasn’t even thinking. And I saw that he had searched this girl’s name. In the search bar, and I just snapped at him. I said, What the heck is this? And pulled him outside. I was so mad, and he just had this way of placating me, I think, whenever I would find stuff. So he just groveled, basically. He was like, I’m so sorry. I’m struggling right now. It made me feel empathetic towards him, because I thought, well, he just has this problem. This kept me stuck in a pattern of waiting for him to change. So I started to feel myself pulling away emotionally and I’m like “I dislike my husband,” of course. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) **Anne:** You were resisting. **Cece:** Yeah. **Anne:** That I just have this problem, and I can’t stop the eliciting of empathy and almost pity. Abusers don’t mind it when people pity them. Like I hate it. If people pity me, I’m like, oh, I’m fine. Leave me alone. It’s not something that I enjoy. It feels bad to me, but they’re like, Oh, good. And I think it’s because they use it to manipulate people, it’s gross. ## CHANGING CHURCHES & HOPING THINGS WILL IMPROVE **Cece:** For sure, so I wasn’t sure how much longer this could last at that point. I knew I’d always wanted a bunch of kids and to live the stay at home mom life. But I dislike my husband and I started to realize that maybe our marriage was not going to last. I thought it, it’s got an expiration date at some point. Especially, I can’t keep having kids with him when he’s doing this, but I wanted more at the same time. Probably the biggest thing that happened that year was that we changed churches. We just didn’t agree with some of the stuff they were doing at our church. So we wanted to change churches. And we ended up at a super conservative Baptist church. It felt safe there. I had stopped going to my S-Anon meetings, and I had started to look into more traditional marriage materials. Not anything super fundamentalist, but more complementarian ideas. I thought, wow, maybe I can at least improve my marriage. Even if your emotionally abusive husband will change or not, I can’t get him to change. At least maybe I can have a halfway decent life if I follow these rules. ## WAITING FOR CHANGE WHEN I DISLIKE MY HUSBAND **Anne:** So at the time you’re thinking maybe complementarianism is the answer. **Cece:** Yes, all the women there were stay at home homeschooling moms, like I was, so I thought I fit in here. I got into the trad wife kind of movement. And started following all those social media accounts, like baking bread and gardening. I think looking back, that was a flight response where I was trying to escape the situation almost. **Anne:** You’re still resisting it because you’re thinking, if I do this, it will stop it, which is a form of resistance. **Cece:** Yeah, if I dislike my husband, maybe I can survive if I live my life largely separate from him. I would be working 13-14 hour days at home doing stuff. Because I loved hosting holidays, decorating the house. And making it super shiny and clean, just because I was trying to keep myself occupied. And keep myself fulfilled doing stuff. **Anne:** You’re trying to thrive in the sphere that you think you have power over. So if you can’t be the best stockbroker, because you’re not a stockbroker, you’re like, I’m going to be the best host. I’m going to be the best homeschooling mom. You’re trying to thrive in whatever sphere you can. Your waiting to see if your emotionally abusive husband will change, you want to give him a chance. And they’re also promising things. They’re saying, hey, if you treat a man this way, he’ll treat you well. If you have dinner on the table, if the house is clean, if you give him intImacy, that’s what men want. And so this is the answer to your problems. They’re also suggesting this is a way out. ## I DISLIKE MY HUSBAND: HOW BOUNDARIES PROTECT WOMEN & CHILDREN FROM EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Cece:** Yes, this was when I started setting serious boundaries around intimacy. I was like, if I’m just gonna live here and be a house slave. I’m not a wife anymore. It seemed gross when I didn’t want to do it. That was a whole other thing. It was like he would would start a fight. Then I would be so confused, because I wouldn’t be in the mood. And then he’d be like, you’re never in the mood. And I’m like, you just started a fight with me! It was like he was covertly withholding from me. And that was disappointing to me, honestly. **Anne:** Also, making it your fault that he didn’t want to with you, because he was busy using and masturbating, and whatever else he was doing. He doesn’t seem like he truly cares about making a change. It’s impossible to figure out [how to live with a husband you don’t trust.](https://www.btr.org/how-to-live-with-a-husband-you-dont-trust/ "how to live with a husband you don't trust.") **Cece:** Yes, and I figured that out after I got out. I could probably count on my fingers the number of times we did. But I got pregnant one of those times. Not on purpose. I was excited to have a boy and It was a time of hope in my life. It seemed like he started to make changes at that point too. Because I read a book that was helpful for breaking spiritual strongholds, and it seemed to help me in my life. ## I DISLIKE MY HUSBAND: ANOTHER D-DAY AND THE NUMBNESS THAT FOLLOWED **Cece:** He read it, and he seemed to want to change after that. He was much more intentional with me, actually wanting to spend time with me. Instead of doing his own thing all the time. Then when I was 25 weeks pregnant, I had another D-day, and I saw he was looking up a girl on Instagram, and I thought. What is going on? I mean, I thought we were good now. Apparently not. So after that, I was just existing and numb. And thought, he is just gonna do this no matter what. So it was this new level of having to accept that I dislike my husband and it was super depressing. So then it was Christmas, and I was doing my housewife thing. We had family over, I was trying to clean the house. He was just sitting on his butt doing nothing. I could tell he was a new level of checked out. I didn’t know why, but my intuition told me something. He wouldn’t come to bed with me ever, he would stay up until 3AM. And just this thought creeped into my mind, could he be cheating in real life? But then the other part of me was like, he would never do that. I was confused. I got him some lingerie for Christmas, thinking maybe I can rekindle our romance. So I put it on, and he did not even look at me. He was just bored. And I was thinking, if he’s not attracted to me at all, we’ve got serious issues. That was the turning point. ## DISCOVERING BTR & EYE-OPENING STORIES **Cece:** I did start listening to [The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast ](https://www.btr.org/podcast/)at that point, and it was honestly a little too much for me at first. I just had to take a long time to digest everything. So that was a good resource for me. And I started gradually listening to it more. I had been starting to follow on Facebook for a month or so, because I was at the end of my rope. It was just eye-opening to read all the stories there, and I thought, oh, this is my story. And just the fact that these guys did not give up explicit material for any extended period. They would keep finding stuff over and over, even when they thought their husbands were in good recovery. **Anne:** Can you talk about why it was a little too much for just a second? Was it too painful to hear other people’s stories, or you just didn’t feel hope? Or that seemed like for so many women that their husbands didn’t change. **Cece:** I thought you were a little too feminist for me. I don’t think that now, but I did think that before. I thought, well, you know, not necessarily the guests, but like, Anne is so honest. It’s a compliment, but I just thought you were so hard hitting. With the fact that this is abuse, and these men will do what they’re going to do. I’m like, well, yeah, I dislike my husband, but some of them might want to change. **Anne:** So at the time we were like, Anne is too feminist. She’s kind of too extreme in her, this is abuse stance. **Cece:** Right. **Anne:** That is true. Many people think that about me, and I’m like, yeah, it’s true. ## CONFRONTING MY HUSBAND, FROM TRAD WIFE TO BTR **Cece:** Yeah, just being a trad wife and starting to listen to your content was, I mean, it was, it was so good. It was what I needed. **Anne:** Going from trad wife to BTR.ORG was like whiplash, yeah. **Cece:** Right, I think I felt like a chandelier had just fallen from the ceiling on top of me when I thought about my marriage. This has crashed down, and I don’t even know what to do. So, I sat my husband down and gave him the choice between me or explicit material, and I was like, this is it. This has gone on long enough, and I was totally serious. I was crying and I said, “This is a crap sandwich either way.” That’s what I told him. And I said, “I can’t believe I brought three babies into the world with you if I have to just leave.” And I said, “So you’ve got to quit.” He actually did a disclosure. I don’t know if it was a full disclosure, because we didn’t do a polygraph or anything. And I know polygraphs aren’t the be all end all either. **Anne:** This is an addiction therapist? **Cece:** Well, eventually we went to one of those. But this was before we had our appointment with them. So he just wanted to do it. He said, “I have to tell you everything.” I got to get it off my chest. **Anne:** This is a non-therapeutic one, he’s just, like, gonna tell you. Maybe, if he doesn’t want to change, at least he’s being honest. ## DISCLOSURE & ACCOUNTABILITY **Cece:** I thought, okay, let’s just sit down after the kids went to bed. I know I needed to know everything. And found out he was playing explicit video games on the TV when the kids could have walked in any minute. I was like, wow, I need to get myself and my kids out of this situation if he continues to do this. This is crazy. So I was nauseated and had to stop partway through, but I wanted to know everything. We came back after that, and I found out a lot of stuff. So I wrote up this contract. It wasn’t official or anything, but it just said, I promise to like fully provide if things don’t work out. And continue to pay for everything they need, and let her continue to homeschool and support her. So he signed the contract, and we also put accountability software on his devices, like, so I could see everything he was doing. **Anne:** Part of me thinks, this might be why you didn’t like listening to me in the podcast in the beginning, but here we go. Part of me thinks you said, okay, explicit material or me. He was like, I’m going to tell her everything. And then she’s going to kick me out. And when you didn’t do that, he was like, shoot, now I got to lie to her again. **Cece:** That’s possible. **Anne:** Because why would he tell you at that point, and not at a different point? Why does he just volunteer it? **CeCe:** I don’t know. **Anne:** That’s my thought that he thought, “I’m going to tell her everything. She’ll be so disgusted. She’ll be like, you’re obviously choosing explicit material. I’m done.” He’s trying to tell me that he’s not going to change. ## I DISLIKE MY HUSBAND: I WAS DONE WITH BETRAYAL, BUT HE RELAPSED AGAIN **Anne:** But instead, [your husband won’t stop lying](https://www.btr.org/husband-wont-stop-lying/ "your husband won't stop lying"), because for some reason, they cannot just be like, you know what? I want to use. Cool, let’s get divorced. Like I’ve never seen an abuser do that. If you’re listening and thinking, I’m going to confront him and tell him it’s either explicit material or me. He will always choose you, because he’s going to look terrible if he chooses explicit material. Y So he’s never going to do that. It’s a good way to try to resist abuse, but abusers don’t work like that. They’re always going to lie because abusers always have to manage their image. **Cece:** That is true. I will say this is the first time I think there was any force behind my boundaries. Because I was kind of bluffing the other times. I didn’t have it in me to leave, but the point was, I was done. I was like an animal caught in the trap, wanting to chew off its own leg. So he seemed to change for five months. And it seemed like he was actually repenting and like wanting to have a relationship with me. **Anne:** Maybe if your emotionally abusive husband will change, you could stay. **Cece:** It went from him having no interest in me to wanting to be close, but it was like a pendulum swing like, Oh no, please don’t go. I had just been through the ringer and couldn’t handle any more betrayal. But five months later, he relapsed. He did a drip disclosure. He told me part of the truth and then more came out. And that was doubly traumatic. In that moment, the thought returned stronger than ever: I dislike my husband—not because I’m unforgiving, but because I’m exhausted from cycles that never truly end. ## TAKING A TWO WEEK BREAK AT MOM’S **Cece:** I zoned out, staring in his face when he told me this. I could barely handle it. Basically, you shouldn’t be my accountability partner, you’re my wife, and need to get back in your place. I thought, wow, it was 180 from what he said before. He said, I’ve not taken my role as a husband seriously, and I need to humble myself. **Anne:** It sounded as if he could change. **Cece:** Then it was like, get back in your place, woman. Right after that, it was so crazy. I was like, I dislike my husband. We’re not doing this. I kicked him out of our room and told him he needed to sleep in the guest room. He got in bed with me and would not get out. I was like, get out. And I knew it would create a toxic situation for our kids if we were sitting there yelling. I thought, I have to get out of here. So I went to my mom’s for two weeks. She is the one family member I am close with. I reached out to his accountability people. Just like, my husband is not okay. I need you to check up on him. He has a brother, he and his wife were on my side this whole time. Which was a blessing, and I still talk with them. His brother called and said, “You have to confess to your wife what you did.” He called me on FaceTime and told me he was doing the video games again. I thought there is something more. I mean, his eyes just went black. It was like a demonic kind of thing, which I couldn’t have explained until experiencing it. It was wild, it seemed like his soul was gone at that point. ## KNOWING MY EMOTIONALLY ABUSIVE HUSBAND WON’T CHANGE: KICKING HIM OUT **Cece:** I had these panic attacks at different times. It was the weirdest thing, it was almost like I dislike my husband. He came to visit the kids, and it was awful. I felt this strong urge that I needed to get away from him. I told him he needed to move out before I came back to town. There was verbal abuse in front of the kids, and I knew he couldn’t be in the house. My oldest, she drew a picture of us shouting at each other, and it said, “Mommy and Daddy are not getting along.” That broke my heart. I thought we needed to be apart, so he moved out. When I returned to town, we set an appointment with an addiction therapist he went to an individual counselor. When I went to his counselor with him, I was so desperate to be believed. I was talking fast, please believe me. This is happening, and he’s like, why are you acting like this? Looking back, he should have known that this was an abuse situation. It was obvious I panicked trying to tell the story. And I said, “I just want someone to believe me.” **Anne:** If your emotionally abusive husband could change, he wasn’t **Cece:** It was bad. I was finding stuff. I found videos he watched, different social media accounts. So now he’s got an accountability partner from the church, which was the assistant pastor. Which was a total joke, because I thought okay, nobody does better research than a betrayed wife. This is crazy pathetic. He thinks he can help him. And I have my own suspicions about the assistant pastor and what he’s into. He thought your husband could change. ## THE CHURCH’S ROLE TURNS TO BLAME **Cece:** But I found all this stuff, and the people from church wanted to sit down with me. The pastor and assistant pastor and their wives were there. And the pastor says, “I think your husband is doing well.” It seems like he’s taking things seriously. And I said, “You want me to show you his accounts?” I said, “This accountability partner stuff is a joke. The only person who knows what he’s up to is me. And he’s up to no good.” I wanted him to go to rehab. That was my line in the sand. I said, “I will not consider getting back together unless he goes to rehab.” At first they were on my side. They’re like, yeah, maybe he needs rehab. But then the assistant pastor turned it back around on me towards the end of the meeting. Asking me, why do you feel the need to be so controlling? Saying, if your emotionally abusive husband will change, it’s up to you. It was awful. I knew I needed to stop going to that church. I just cut off communication with them. Thanks to what I’ve learned on this podcast largely. Because I thought, oh, this is going the same way as everybody else’s churches. So I’m grateful for what I had learned at that point. **Anne:** What are you thinking about [Betrayal Trauma](https://www.btr.org/)? **Cece:** I was thinking I am all ears at this point. **Anne:** If you’re like, should I get services at Betrayal Trauma Recovery? The [betrayal trauma support group near me](/group/ "coaches at BTR.OR") was incredible. They take a woman where she is. They don’t push women or their agenda. They’re like, I’m here to help you get to safety, and figure out if your emotionally abusive husband will change. ## BETRAYAL TRAUMA RECOVERY HELPS WOMEN GET TO SAFETY **Anne:** How do you want to do that? Everything you’ve done in the past is resisting abuse. How do you want to move forward? I’ll talk to victims in real life. They’ll come to my house because they’re part of my community. At church or something. So me in real life. I’m looking at this person in the eyes. And usually they don’t love it. They’re like, this seems too extreme. But almost a hundred percent of the time they return six months to a year later. And they’re like, if I had done that, I would be in such a better position now. I always look at them with empathy, give them a hug, and say, “I am you.” I did that exact same thing. And I was like, oh no, I’m going to do the addiction recovery thing for a while. I’m going to go to couple therapy. It’s almost like you have to try it for yourself to realize that it’s not going to work. When I first started BTR.ORG, I thought, Oh, I can cut that off of the pass. I can be like, don’t do it. That is what I do. But I’ve come to realize that because it’s your marriage, because you want to resist through saving your marriage. And because all of us care that we almost just need to know for ourselves. So that stage of trying is an important stage that most victims will go through. And it’s not our fault, because the manipulation is so intense from everywhere. From the abuser, clergy and therapists, it’s hard to be like, okay, I’m going to go against clergy, therapists, and my family. That’s a really hard place to be. Can you talk about that for a little bit? ## LETTING GO OF HOPING HE WOULD CHANGE AND FINDING SAFE SUPPORT WHEN I DISLIKE MY HUSBAND **Cece:** It was hard to feel like my entire church had turned against me. I was just the outcast. My pastor’s wife was part of our homeschool co-op. I just felt like she was looking down her nose at me every time I was there with my kids. By that point, I had already been quietly wrestling with the thought, *I dislike my husband* — and I felt ashamed of it. They are not trauma informed or giving me any kind of good advice. They told me that I needed to suffer well and I was just done at that point. I ended up going to my old church, and they were supportive. Because one of my friends who had walked through the same thing told me they were helpful and understanding. Everybody was very kind whenever I went and welcomed me back. I also quickly found the safe people. It was hard at first, because I didn’t know who would be understanding and who wouldn’t. So I felt like I had to over explain myself to everybody at first. But then, my intuition got stronger over time. I could tell the friends I know who are in healthy marriages. They were shocked when I told them what was going on. The friends I could tell were in unhealthy marriages, and just staying there. They were the ones who gave me the advice, “You need to keep trying.” I couldn’t take any more of that. My husband’s parents actually offered us a marriage intensive to send us there and pay four or five thousand dollars for it. I said if you’re gonna pay that money, you need to put that money towards his rehab. Because that’s actually going to save our marriage. ## MY HUSBAND MOVES BACK IN SAYING, “I DON’T TRUST HIM” **Cece:** Oh, no, you need a marriage intensive. I was like, okay, whatever, and he didn’t want to go to rehab. So he moved back after a month of being out. He said you’re not believing me. You’re not trusting me. So I’m going to move back in. **Anne:** What? What? Blaming you if your husband will change or not. **Cece:** Yeah, I mean, isn’t that crazy? You don’t trust me, cause I was finding stuff, still. **Anne:** How could you not trust me, because you’ve done it in the past? Like what? Like they don’t make sense. Sorry, it’s crazy. Like if your emotionally abusive husband will change or not, it depends on you. **Cece:** Yeah, he moved back in, and I moved to the guest room. We basically had a parenting schedule. Like where he would parent at this time, and I would parent at that time. And I’d always go in my room and lock the door if he was home. So, in the fall, he had a few moments of clarity where he was like, Oh gosh, I’m about to lose my family. But then he would be back to where he was before the next day. I was, my panic attacks and stuff were starting to even out at that point. I was like, I’m just going to observe and see what’s going on. At one point, I said, “I just want to sit down with you and pray for you. I don’t know why, I just think God is leading me to do this.” And looking back, God was trying to open my eyes at that point, even more. So I prayed for him and just cried. ## TRYING TO SAVE OUR FAMILY & MINI STROKE **Cece:** I was like, God, I love this man. Please change him, help him see what he needs to do and save our family. And he said, “You want to go out to dinner?” I said, “Sure.” So we went to dinner, and I was trying so hard. It was like there was this glass wall between us. I pounded on the glass to wake him up, to understand my view. But he would not hear any of it. He was in the complimentarian BS, like, “You’re my wife, you need to be submissive.” I could tell he was obviously taking a lot of it from what he heard from the church. That night I had a TIA stroke. It’s like a mini stroke. It doesn’t usually impact you long term, but it is a warning sign that you might have a stroke in the future. My head felt like it was gonna burst, it was like I couldn’t even formulate any thoughts. It was the weirdest feeling. I just felt like my brain was shutting down, and afterwards it was scary. After that night, I knew I had to set a permanent boundary that I would not discuss any type of relationship stuff with him. Because I thought it was going to be the real thing next time. I moved to a camp. We stayed there for three weeks, and it was fun. It was like a camping trip. That was the first time my kids ever spent a night away from me. And that was really hard. I was still nursing my 18 month old. And so my boobs were leaking. I cried so much, but after that, it got easier. ## CONTESTING THE DIVORCE & LEGAL BATTLES **Cece:** And I started using the time to refresh myself, listening to helpful resources to combat the negative impact of thinking I dislike my husband, and meditating on scripture. One of the most helpful scriptures to me was Malachi 2. Just talking about how much God hates when men are unfaithful to their wives. It was so encouraging to me. In those days, I would just open the Bible, and God would always lead me to the right passage. That was one of the main ways I could regulate my nervous system. And then I interviewed two lawyers. I was so broken over having to do that. Because in Tennessee, we don’t have legal separation. You either stay together or file for divorce. Without filing, I could not get him to move out of the house. I also couldn’t get child support or anything set up, so I knew I needed to file. But the night before I went to the first lawyer’s office, my son knocked our marriage license off the wall and the frame broke. I was like, wow. And God led me to this passage from Psalm 81, which was referring to when he delivered his people from Egypt. It was talking about how he set their hands free from the basket and delivered them. And that was amazing to me, thinking, wow, okay. I have heard God and I’m peaceful about it. So I went to the law office, and eventually he got served. He said he wanted to contest the divorce, even though we didn’t have any assets to divide. So he just made me waste a bunch of money on the lawyer fees for a contested divorce, even though we didn’t go to court at all. ## CUSTODY THREATS & EMOTIONAL MANIPULATION **Cece:** It was interesting, he was almost gleeful when we talked about the stuff that we were going to divide up. And he was like, Oh yeah, we’ll do that. It was weird. It was like, he was happy. And I thought I had made the right decision. He just wanted me to do the dirty work, which I was devastated to have to do. **Anne:** My ex was like that too. He was so happy to get divorced, or at least he acted like it. It was so weird. He was showing now that he never wanted to change. **Cece:** Weird, one time I was getting the kids ready for co-op, and out of nowhere, he came into the room. He said, “I’m going for 50/50 custody.” And he knew that was something that would devastate me, because I’d always been a stay at home mom. And I’d always done all the stuff for the kids. And I thought, what are they going to do spending half their time with him? That would totally disrupt their lives. He caught me so off guard. I freaked out, I said, “Are you kidding me?” It was in front of the kids. I’m ashamed to say I yelled in front of them. But said, “You’re going to be calm. You’re not going to show your triggers.” My ex is big on homeschooling. I said, we won’t be able to homeschool because you work a nine to five, so we’ll have to put them in public school and daycare. This is expensive, because we would have two that need to be in daycare. And you’re going to pay a lot more for that than if I just take them to work with me or just work around their schedules. ## BIRTHDAY DRAMA WITH A PUBLIC CONFRONTATION **Cece:** He always spiritualizes everything. I said, God’s gonna be good and faithful to us no matter what. So you know, I’m not worried either way. **Anne:** We teach how to tell if your husband will change in [my workshop](/clarity/). **Cece:** Totally, then I just poured out my heart to my safe people when I could get away from him. We worked out the parenting schedule. We have 70/30 now. But one thing that I remember from that month he moved out is my middle child, her birthday party was that month. We already had it planned and everything, and we were both going to be there. I was thinking, Oh, how’s this going to go? Especially since [infidelity is abusive](/is-infidelity-abuse/). He started drama at the birthday party. Saying I was planning to take the kids out of state, because I was planning to visit my mom at one point. That was the first time he ever found out about it. And he freaked out in front of everybody. And I said, “I’m not doing this again. We’re not having birthday parties together if you’re going to continue this.” I used to cry when he guilted me and said I was breaking up our family. I used to internalize it. But this time something shifted. I realized that the reason I was thinking, *I dislike my husband,* wasn’t because I had become unloving—it was because I was tired of being blamed for his choices. ## FINDING PEACE BY SETTING FIRM BOUNDARIES WHEN I DISLIKE MY HUSBAND **Cece:** We got to Christmas. We split time with the kids. Things were much more peaceful once I started having firm boundaries with him. And I eventually moved out. He bought me out of the house, because unfortunately I had no employment history or anything. My mom helped me get my rental place. Which I don’t know what I would have done if she hadn’t helped me. But God provided the perfect place for us. I was so sad to leave my house and all the work I put into it. But now we live in a three bedroom house on two acres. Because I posted on Facebook and someone responded, and we found the perfect place. I can just send my kids outside. It’s great. I’ve just been able to build a business. God has just provided every step of the way. Because it’s very public now. It’s just out there that I dislike my husband. I’m divorced because my husband was a addict. I’ve had other moms contact me from my different social circles, even those who are still in their marriages just suffering. Which I feel terrible about. And I’m going through the same thing. You’re the only person I’ve told about this. It’s so common, it’s everywhere. God has confirmed to me that I made the right decision. I’ve learned to sit with grief, journal about it, and talk to my safe people. **Anne:** Does it help knowing that the good parts weren’t actually good? Do you know what I mean? That they were grooming and part of the abuse? Does that help? How do you feel about that? It’s so hard to tell if your emotionally abusive husband will change, when he’s groomed you for so long to keep believing he will. ## BRAVERY & STRENGTH: THRIVING AFTER ABUSE **Cece:** You’re right. At the same time, I view myself as alone in those memories. Like, I had a good experience, but I was alone. So even saying my wedding vows, that was me being my honest self. But he was not being honest. His heart was not sincere in it. Actually, he remarried just a few weeks ago. I feel bad for his next victim. He definitely picked someone vulnerable and naive. I tried to be friendly with her, just in case she ever needs to reach out. **Anne:** If you could go back in time, what would you tell yourself? **Cece:** I thought about that question. And I honestly don’t know if there’s anything I could have said to myself that I would have listened to. **Anne:** I think that’s such a good answer, because that’s how I am too. I just have to say like, yay, because I’m not the same way now. Like you listened to [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast](https://www.btr.org/podcast/), but at the time you thought the best way to resist abuse was help your emotionally abusive husband change. **CeCe:** Right, there’s so much wisdom in it, but you have to be ready to hear it. ha ha. **Anne:** Ha ha, I would not have listened to myself either. Well, thank you so much for sharing your story. You are so brave. You are so strong, and it’s so good to hear that you’re thriving and doing well. And I appreciate you sharing today. **Cece:** Thank you so much. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast **Tags:** abusive relationship, emotional abuse --- ### [3 Examples of Misogyny Your Husband May Be Doing Right Now](https://www.btr.org/examples-of-misogyny/) **Published:** August 11, 2026 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Misogyny fuels abuse and thrives where it's allowed to be hidden. **Content:** Most women would probably not describe their husband as misogynistic. But some examples of misogyny are so subtle, you may be surprised to realize your husband is doing them. ## 3 EXAMPLES OF MISOGYNY ### 1. HE NEEDS A LIST FOR EVERY HOUSEHOLD CHORE Your husband might *say* he is happy to help around the house, but only if you tell him exactly what to do. He might expect you to write detailed lists, remind him to finish chores, or walk him through basic childcare tasks. By waiting for your directions before lifting a finger, or leaving things unfinished, he forces you to carry the entire mental load of running your home and maintaining your relationship. [When your husband doesn’t help with the housework](/when-your-husband-doesnt-help-with-housework/) it shifts those responsibilities completely onto your shoulders, because of misogyny, leaving you feeling more like his personal assistant or his mother than his equal partner. ### 2. HE CHOOSES INAPPROPRIATE MATERIAL OVER TRUE INTIMACY Many women might not even know this is happening. He might hide his misogyny. What a woman might notice is that her husband doesn’t seem truly interested in her. He might ignore her by spending long hours in his office or on hobbies, until he needs something from her. He may give excuses like, “I have a ton of work to do. You go to bed. I’ll come when I’m done” or “I’m stressed and I need to go cool off,” while he secretly uses that time to pursue fantasy over his real-life marriage. This behavior undermines the emotional and [physical intimacy](/types-of-physical-intimacy/) that is foundational to a healthy marriage, leaving you feeling isolated, unwanted, and unloved. ### 3. HE APPLIES DIFFERENT STANDARDS TO YOU THAN TO HIMSELF BECAUSE OF MISOGYNY Misogyny often shows up when your husband holds you to different standards than he does for himself. For example: he might criticize you for buying clothes or something for your home, while he spends freely on his personal hobbies, or he expects you to keep a tidy house while leaving his belongings scattered in every room. This double standard often extends to shared finances. He may hide money, refuse access to bank statements, or pat you on the head with phrases like, “I’ll take care of the finances, you don’t need to worry about it.” This behavior strips you of your voice and agency, leaving you in the vulnerable position of not having access to [betrayal trauma resources](/betrayal-trauma-resources/) you need to live in emotional safety. To find out if your husband is using any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take my free [emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). For strategies to deal with this type of abuse and establish peace in your home, enroll in [The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop](/livingfree/). **Key takeaways from the interview:** - **[Recognizing Patterns of Misogyny in Relationships](#Understanding-examples-of-misogyny)** - [**How Misogyny Interferes with Truth and Healing in Therapy**](#victim-blaming) - [**When Your Husband Uses the Truth to Lie**](#lying-husband-is-emotionally-abusive) - [**The Connection Between Misogyny and Inappropriate Media**](#misogyny-and-exploitation) ## TRANSCRIPT: FINDING SUPPORT AND NAMING THE REALITY OF EXAMPLES OF MISOGYNY **Anne:** Welcome Virginia. **Virginia:** Thank You for everything you do. I would be lost without BTR. You have seriously brought me back to life. **Anne:** Oh, I’m so glad to hear that. How did you find out about BTR and [betrayal trauma in marriage](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ck_zRsJbD9c)? **Virginia:** It was the oddest thing. Something came up on YouTube that showed BTR.ORG. I tell you fate, whatever you wanna call it, I checked it out and that’s how I found BTR. When I started attending the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions](/group/). The first session, I couldn’t believe in a sense of relief that, oh, I’m not the only person living in this world. And not that it’s relieving to know that other women suffer in this manner. You feel like you’re on your own planet. And you don’t know what to do. Hearing the other women’s stories in what they’ve been through is just heartbreaking. But the ability to share and validate each other is amazing. And the coaches listen so well. The feedback they give is invaluable. They’re on top of it and they remember everything. I don’t know how they do it. I’m not on very often. I know other people are on much more often than I am. But I’m telling you, this is a lifesaver. It really is. I don’t know what else to say. I can’t say enough about it. **Anne:** I am so grateful. It’s helpful. I think our coaches are incredible. Our whole team is incredible. I think one of the reasons we’re incredible is because we’ve all been through it with misogyny, so we understand it on such a visceral level. And then we have really great training and we know what we’re talking about. ## UNDERSTANDING WHAT EXAMPLES OF MISOGYNY ARE IN MARRIAGE **Anne:** I’m really happy that it was helpful to you. Let’s start with your story and the misogyny you endured. **Virginia:** So I married my Chuck in 2002. I married once before for seven years. I have two children from that first marriage. It occurred to me after realizing what was going on in this current marriage. That I was also experiencing more physical abuse and sexual abuse in the first marriage. So this has been an eye opening experience. The entire beginning of our marriage, he made me feel unattractive. That he did not want to be intimate. He was tired, too busy, and worked so hard and all this. And I would think to myself, that doesn’t seem to add up to me, and I couldn’t quite understand. But as a woman, you take it out on yourself and think, what am I doing wrong? What am I not doing right? Am I not pretty enough? I had discovered so many things, pornographic materials, books, cross-dressing clothes in his car. Magazines everywhere. And I confronted him on this. Because here I am, newly married, with two small children of eight and six years old. My thought was, I can’t put them through this again. I can’t have another divorce, it will devastate them. And I knew at the time that it was wrong. He told me he was going to get help and take care of this. He brushed away a lot of it as nothing. I was just in shock and trusted him. ## FINDING INAPPROPRIATE MATERIAL – MY HUSBAND BLAMED IT ON OUR SON **Virginia:** Fast forward a little bit. My son was about 10 and the basement was not finished at the time. I had it set up so the kids could play. And there was a little TV down here for them. Well, I found pornographic videos tucked into the couch and behind the couch. I went to my husband and said, “You’ve gotta be kidding with me right now. The kids play down there. You can’t do this. This is unacceptable.” And his answer was, ” Oh, it must be our son’s, he must be looking at the videos.” **Anne:** It’s just so offensive to me that they don’t even care about kids. They’ll [exploit and use](/what-is-exploitative/) children. There’s no excuse for the misogyny. **Virginia:** Right . then three or four years later, I had upstairs in the kitchen, a computer. Because I want them to do their homework in there. This one night they went to bed. I was going to play solitaire and I find porn. So I called him out into the kitchen and again he swore, “I will get help. I’m going to do this, I’m going to do that.” And went to therapy and all of this. So here we are. He’s been going to a 12-Step program for all this time. It’s been 20 years. This is an interesting thing, and I find common through conversations that I’ve heard through the other women. You know something is wrong, and I couldn’t pinpoint exactly what was wrong. ## DISCOVERING THAT HE’S HIDING MONEY **Virginia:** The first thing I found was the money. He was hiding money all throughout the house in books, you name it, thousands of dollars hidden. I didn’t tell him I knew that there was money hidden everywhere. He figured out that I found it, because all of a sudden the money was all moved out of the hidden places. I still, till this day, have no idea where all that money went. This is evidence of misogyny. He said, “We spent it”. I said, “No, we didn’t.” Then we started to redo the basement. I cleaned out the basement, and found every single one of those magazines. He supposedly threw away 20 years ago. I was furious and didn’t say anything. I packaged every single one of them up in trash bags. And I put them in the back of my car with a bunch of other boxes that I had cleaned out. And when I dropped off the donations, I was going to bring the trash bags with the magazines to the dump. He emptied all of those bags out of my car, every bag. And I never told them I found them. I didn’t say a single word. And I found them in the garage. I took them, and again, I didn’t say anything. I brought them out to the fire pit, and God forgive me, I burnt every single one of them because I was so mad. And two weeks later, he went out to the fire pit, and he came and he said, ” Hey, do you wanna help me clean up that mess out in the fire pit that you made?” And I said, “No, I really don’t.” [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## EXAMPLES OF MISOGYNY – LOSING MY INDEPENDENCE **Anne:** Was he calm when he said it? **Virginia:** He’s always calm. **Anne:** That’s so scary. It’s like that chilling kind of calm, right? It’s like terrifying. **Virginia:** This has been a really difficult situation, because I was supposed to have retired. I am retired, but now I have no independence. And I’m trying feverishly to find a job, so I’m relying on him to pay the bills. I bought this house as a single mother with two small children. And I put his name on it when we married. So now, I’m in a difficult position, so I am here with him in the home with no choice right now, but to stick around until I can find another job. **Anne:** Until you can figure it out and realize the effects of misogyny.. I am so sorry. **Virginia:** It is so hard, yeah. **Anne:** I was gonna ask, before you found the money or the pornography, he was going to 12 Step ? **Virginia:** He would go every week. He wouldn’t discuss his sobriety, but it was SLAA , Sex, Love, Addiction Anonymous. It’s based off the same 12-Step that AA is based off of. Nobody knew he was going except for me. So in a conversation that we would have privately, his response would be, “Well, I know I go to a 12-Step program every week. I don’t know about them.” He would lord it over people. ## EXAMPLES OF MISOGYNY – MY HUSBAND THINKS HE’S THE VICTIM **Virginia:** And by the way, I am also very well educated and have had a fantastic job, and have made the same if not more money than he at times. Someone could take your self-esteem and twist it like that, and make you feel so bad about yourself. Because they’re doing something wrong, and so they’re just sort of taking it out on you. I couldn’t understand. And I’ll be honest with you, I still cannot understand that this person can still continue to lie and do these things after all of these years and look me in the face and say, “I didn’t do that. I don’t know what you’re talking about.” They asked him to leave. I actually paid for him to live in Airbnbs for a few months. Through this, he’s been going to see a therapist, but he’s clearly not telling the truth. What I’m getting is he’s feeling sorry for himself. He’s the victim. He’s the one that’s doing all the work, and he’s trying to make himself better. He left until this last Saturday. And I found more pornography links on his Facebook site, more chat rooms. So all this time we are going through this, and he’s swearing, “I’m doing the very best I can.” And he’s still doing the same things. I found out that it’s worse than I thought it was. So I’m living in a house with this man, who I really have no idea who he is. Because he cannot tell the truth. he’s trying to make me feel bad. And he’s using my son in the whole process. **Anne:** I am so sorry. That sounds like a nightmare. ## WHEN THERAPISTS ARE FOOLED BY HIS LIES **Anne:** Before you understood what was happening, did you guys ever go to couple therapy for help? **Virginia:** I asked him years ago to go to therapy, because I felt he was depressed. His mood swings were so significant. It’s this heavy negative presence. Unnecessary anger, taking things out on people you don’t need to be taking things out on. The entitlement of misogyny. He would come in a room, and you could just feel the negativity coming off of him. He did go to see a therapist. I also went to a therapist. At one point, we met together. But it wasn’t working. The therapist recognized that, which I thank God for. I’d been going to therapy, a specialist, to work with somebody that is addicted to pornography, but also childhood trauma. I did not feel his therapy was working. I asked if I could be invited into one of the sessions. Because I wanted to give her the information that not only is he continuing to do what he was doing, but it’s worse than ever. Her response to me on that was, ” He’s telling a very different story from what you’re telling. And I’ve been doing this for a very long time. It’s very difficult for people to fool me.” And then she said, “Would you like him to get rid of his Facebook page? It seems like you have trust issues.” And I don’t mean to laugh, but I couldn’t believe what I was hearing. ## IF YOU WANT TO KNOW IF A LIAR IS TRUTHFUL, WATCH THEIR ACTIONS **Virginia:** She said to him, ” Would you be willing to get rid of your Facebook page?” He’s crying, and he, says, “Yes.” And she said, “Would that make you feel better?” I said, “This is not my call. I’m not here to be his mom or his parent. or for couple therapy. I’m here to give you the information. It’s in black and white. I have photos of what I found.” So just as I’ve heard you talk about, and I’ve heard in group sessions. “This person is now lying to you, and you’re telling me that you believe what that person is saying.” And I also said to her, ” I’ve been married to him for almost 24 years. I know what is true and what is not true.” **Anne:** It’s crazy to me that a therapist would say, “I’ve been doing this a long time. I know how to tell the truth.” When they have no other way of verifying the truth other than what he’s saying. She just thinks she’s a walking lie detector test or something. You don’t realize with a liar that in order to know the truth, you have to not talk to them, because talking is how they lie. So if you wanna know if a liar is telling the truth or not you have to watch their actions. And how they use misogyny to excuse themselves. ## THEY DON’T RECOGNIZE THAT TALKING IS HOW THESE GUYS LIE **Anne:** So any therapist who purports to work with liars, AKA sex addicts, and says to you, “I’ve been doing this a long time, I know when they’re telling the truth.” I’m like, did you hire a private investigator? Are you following them around all the time? How would you know that they’re telling the truth? You’re talking about a master manipulator. It’s crazy to me that they don’t recognize that talking is how these guys lie. **Virginia:** It makes perfect sense. At the beginning, I had been waiting for him to have an epiphany and say, I’m sorry, I lied. He continues to deny the fact that he blamed my son. He doesn’t remember blaming him on two separate occasions. You don’t remember? Boy, it seared in my brain pretty hard that was an accusation you made towards my son at the age of 10 years old, and the age of 13 years old. Also does not remember how the magazines got back downstairs, cannot recall how that happened. There’s no recollection at all. That’s quite convenient if you ask me. And the therapist’s response is, “When people suffer childhood trauma, sometimes they tend to forget or they block things out.” **Anne:** Something not related to their childhood trauma. That’s not logical. Yeah, a childhood trauma, maybe they forget things related to their childhood trauma. But you’re saying somebody with childhood trauma forgets what they said to someone yesterday? What? The two are not even related in the least. **Virginia:** Exactly. ## THEY JUST DON’T STOP MANIPULATING **Virginia:** So it’s been quite a frustrating journey, and I don’t even have words. For me, the worst part of it is that I had confided in my son and told him we were separated and shared with him. My son is very much like me, very inquisitive. He wants to know, And he wants to know to the point where he wants every detail. He’s 31 years old, but I don’t care. He does not need to know significant details. I gave him enough information, and he made the decision that this must be my fault, meaning me. That I must have pushed him too far. And I thought to myself, he’s always been unkind to my son, and it’s been a bone of contention. I’ve always tried to make a bond between the two of them to build a relationship. And he refused to do so. All of a sudden now he said, ” My father got in touch. To say he was taking me out for dinner.” And he’s asking our son to join us. I thought after 20, however many years, that I’ve been asking you to build a relationship with child, now man, all of a sudden now you’re going to go out and have dinner with him. So I did speak up last night and I said to him, I don’t think that’s appropriate. You need to leave him out of this. In my opinion, in my experience, they don’t stop. They’re such good manipulators, they just don’t stop manipulating. And that I think is a hard road for most people to navigate. ## EXAMPLES OF MISOGYNY – THEY USE THE TRUTH TO LIE **Virginia:** Especially when you’ve trusted that person for so very long, or even for the shortest period of time when you love somebody and they betrayed you. The betrayal is beyond comprehension. **Anne:** Yeah, it is. At least for me, when I realized that everything that came out of his mouth was a lie, a switch flipped for me. And then I couldn’t believe anything he said. Even things that may be true that he said. He even uses the truth to lie. So if he’s telling the truth, that’s fine, but that doesn’t mean he’s being honest. It’s really hard to flip that switch, because there’s gaps. Why would a really good guy get mad over milk? Our brains automatically fill that gap with what we “know”. And what we “know” is that he’s a good guy. So of course, we’ll fill that gap in with, “Oh, he had a bad day,” or “He’s stressed out, or He’s tired ’cause he didn’t get enough sleep. So one thing that I wanna encourage women to do who are listening is just leave that gap blank instead of trying to think of a reason why. The reason why is often how they manipulate us, because we’re naturally going to look for reasons. **Virginia:** Correct, yeah, I agree. And I’ve seen that over and over again. Even to the point of he does not necessarily get angry. It gets very passive aggressive and will say things and then you follow up and say, Did you just say what I think you said?” “I don’t know what you’re talking about. I didn’t say What kind of a man would I be if I would ever say something like that.” ## THE SIGNS HAVE BEEN THERE ALL ALONG **Virginia:** The signs of misogyny have been there all along. Constantly working, managing the house, taking care of the kids, doing all of that and finally I retire. I could not believe what I was finding. **Anne:** As we wrap up, is there anything that you’d like to share with listeners? Somebody who’s new. **Virginia:** When I first started listening to your [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast](/podcast/). It just hit me. And I really thought, thank God. It gave me courage. I’m actually getting goosebumps, a little emotional. And then I went on and joined into the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions](/group/). This is so important for women going through this type of situation. It is real. It is so important for your mental health. If you are in a situation like this. Please listen and join, because it is significant emotional abuse. And the cruelest thing about it is to try to prove it because nine times out of 10, I keep hearing. But he was such a great guy. How could that be? This truly is emotional abuse. Listen, take care and be part of the community. ## WOMEN MAKE SO MUCH PROGRESS **Anne:** Thank you so much for taking the time to share your story. If you are interested in coming back on to share with me how you’re doing in six months to a year since he’s still in the home. And you’re still in the middle of this. I would love to hear the rest of the story. Especially when women are getting services here, women make so much progress. I love to have women come back on and hear them sound more confident and more sure of themselves, because they aren’t living with misogyny. And you sound sure of yourself now, like you sound amazing now. **Virginia:** Thank you. Thank you for hearing my story. I appreciate it. **Anne:** Yeah, thank you so much. ## THE CONNECTION BETWEEN MISOGYNY AND D-DAY STORIES **Anne:** Now you’re going to hear a recording that Corrie sent in about an example of misogyny that so many women in our community experience. It’s frequently called D-Day for Discovery Day. It could also stand for Destruction Day. That’s the day women discover something awful about their husband, and it’s seared in everyone’s memory. Women who’ve gone through it often divide their life between what happened before this day and what happened after. This level of betrayal and deception is rooted in a profound sense of entitlement. So if your husband completely disregards your need for emotional safety, and he’s fine with lying to you, he’s basically deciding your pain and trauma and the negative consequences to you are really not that big of deal compared to what he wants. Over the years, I’ve heard hundreds, maybe thousands of D-Day stories. I personally experienced three D-Days, and you can read all about those experiences in my book, which will come out soon. To get on the mailing list for when that comes out, go to any page on my website and scroll all the way down and put your email into our community. If you’re listening, I want you to think about if you’ve had a D-Day or how many D-Day you’ve had and know that you’re not alone. There’s a whole community of women who totally understand what you’re going through. So here’s Corrie’s story. ## CORRIE’S D-DAY STORY **Corrie:** I just wanted to share about my D-Day, mostly because today is the three year anniversary. It was a Sunday, I had been at church, and that particular day, they had a special visitor come from the Church’s Addiction Recovery Program, specifically on pornography addiction recovery. They came and just kind of talked to the women and men of my congregation about the Addiction Recovery Program I only was able to hear a little bit of it. Since I was in and out with the baby, but I was just thinking at the time, wow, I’m so grateful I don’t have to deal with that. So we went home after church, and we got the baby and my older daughter down for a nap. And I talked to my husband, and I said something like,” I’m really glad that you don’t have that problem. So we don’t have to deal with it.” And he got this look on his face, just this like, green, almost sick look. And I said, am I right? We don’t have to deal with that, right? I thought it wasn’t even an issue. Before we got married, I asked him about it. But, he hadn’t been truthful. He was living a lie. It was three days before our three year wedding anniversary, which really pissed me off. Because I was looking forward to our anniversary. I can’t even remember right now what we had planned, but it just changed the whole thing, and I didn’t know what to do. I didn’t know what to do. ## LOOKING BACK ON THE ANNIVERSARY OF D-DAY **Corrie:** After that, I just froze. I couldn’t trust my husband anymore. That trust was completely shattered, and I didn’t know where to go from there. I am one who has struggled with emotions, dealing with, sharing with, just feeling emotions. I grew up in a home where, especially negative emotions were not okay. We don’t talk about real things, like negative emotion. We don’t talk about depression or anxiety or pornography addiction. I didn’t know how to handle it. So I just froze. It took me a long time, in fact, it wasn’t until this year. When my husband had another relapse, and I was done. I started focusing on me, and that has helped me. It’s been good for me to look back on this, the third anniversary of my D-Day, and see just the crushed person I was back then and how it didn’t destroy my life. **Anne:** Corrie thank you so much for your bravery and recording your D-Day story. And how misogyny affected your marriage. If you would like to record your D-Day story, you can record it on your phone using voice memo, and then email it to podcast@btr.org. And if I get enough of them, I’ll compile them into one episode and air that in the future. If you’ve just had a D-Day the first one or the second one, no matter what D-Day it is. And you don’t know what to do. The first step is getting educated about this type of abuse and getting the right support. [Patriarchy fuels abuse](/fundamentalism-and-patriarchy-fuel-abuse/). When I went through it, even though I went for help, the professionals I went to knew nothing about abuse ## THERAPISTS DIDN’T HELP ME IDENTIFY ABUSE **Anne:** And so their help actually prolonged my suffering. The couple therapists we went to, the pornography addiction recovery therapists, even the individual therapists, didn’t help me identify that I was a victim of emotional and psychological abuse.and sexual coercion. With a man who justified misogyny. That’s why I started podcasting, so that no other woman had to go through what I went through. So if you’ve had a D-Day and you’re wondering where to turn. This podcast is a great way to learn about the reality of your situation. Also to educate you about abuse, so that when you are ready to date again or you have a [teenager you want to protect,](/teen-dating-violence/) you can identify it. And then to talk to women who are going through it. We totally understand what you’re going through. Our [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions](/group/) are the safest, professionally facilitated group sessions on the planet. You deserve appropriate support, that doesn’t blame you for any of this. To see the group session schedule, go to /group/. We’d love to see you in a group session **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast **Tags:** Male Exploitative Privilege --- ### [The Truth About Post Separation Abuse - Women't Stories](https://www.btr.org/post-separation-abuse/) **Published:** August 18, 2026 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Emotional abusers still want power over their victims after separation or divorce. Here's what you need to know about post separation abuse. **Content:** We’d all like to believe that divorce stops abuse, but post separation abuse is so common. The truth is, abusers don’t stop wanting power over their victims, even after divorce. To learn if your ex-husband is continuing to abuse you after your separation or divorce, take my free [emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ## WHAT IS POST SEPARATION ABUSE? Post-separation abuse refers to the continuation of emotional, financial, and psychological abuse by an ex-partner after a relationship has ended. It can manifest in various ways, often leaving the victim feeling trapped and stressed. Understanding and identifying the signs of post-separation abuse is crucial for taking steps towards healing and protection. ### 1. USING THE LEGAL SYSTEM TO STAY IN CONTROL Post-separation abuse often is enabled by the court system that court orders women to co-parent with men who are manipulative and undermining them, lying to them. It causes so much chaos. He might be threatening to take you to court or using court orders that are meant to help you co-parent, to make things harder. ### 2. MAINTAINING FINANCIAL CONTROL Many men withhold things like child support or alimony so that you have to contact him to get it. That is actually a form of post-separation abuse, and they do it on purpose to make sure that they’re still relevant, that they can control what you’re doing so you have to be put through the wringer of contacting them every single time. ### 3. MANIPULATING YOUR CHILDREN’S LIVES Post-separation abuse can also include creating chaos for your children in order to exert control over you. Such as, refusing to adhere to set schedules or neglecting to take your children to extracurricular activities. They may also send subtly intimidating emails. They are difficult to pinpoint as dangerous. But they intend to cause fear and anxiety. ## GET THE RIGHT SUPPORT WHILE YOU ARE EXPERIENCING POST SEPARATION ABUSE At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we recognize the difficulty of understanding post-separation abuse. And are dedicated to providing the support you need. Our community offers: - Betrayal Trauma Recovery **[Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/)**: Join one of our many group sessions for support, guidance, and understanding from women who have been through similar experiences. - Betrayal Trauma Recovery **[Individual Sessions](https://www.btr.org/individual/)**: Receive one-on-one attention and strategies tailored to your situation with our specially trained betrayal trauma coaches. #### Why Choose Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions? - **Expert Support**: Our professional coaches experienced personal betrayal trauma. They are equipped to help you find peace and protection for yourself and your family. - **Accessible & Affordable**: For just $125 a month, you have access to over 92 group sessions—providing real support at the cost of just one therapy appointment. - **Immediate Help**: Attend a group session within hours and start receiving the support you need today. ## TAKE ACTION TO PROTECT YOURSELF DURING POST SEPARATION ABUSE You don’t have to face post-separation abuse alone. Betrayal Trauma Recovery is here to help you take the steps necessary to protect yourself and your children. Attend a group session today, and join a community that understands your struggles and supports your healing journey. If you’re going through post-separation abuse, consider enrolling in [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) to learn the secrets of why an ex would continue to cause chaos after divorce. ## WITH POST SEPARATION ABUSE, BOUNDARIES ARE KEY Boundaries help victims separate themselves from abusive behavior. Boundaries are not: - Ultimatums - Consequences for bad behavior - Mechanisms to control another person’s behavior ![What is Post Separation Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/post-separation-abuse.webp "Post Separation Abuse")Instead, boundaries are courageous actions that victims take to ensure they are as protected as possible from harm. Setting and maintaining boundaries in a divorce is key to navigating post separation abuse. ## WHAT ARE SOME BOUNDARIES THAT CAN HELP ME NAVIGATE POST SEPARATION ABUSE? Remember that boundaries aren’t going to stop your abuser from being abusive, but they are intended to limit your exposure to your ex-husband’s post separation abuse tactics. Some ideas of boundaries you can set and maintain include: - Using a parenting communication app, like *Our Family Wizard,* as your sole mode of communication (consult with your attorney). - Determining certain times of day, or days of the week, that you will check and respond to messages from your ex - Bringing a family member or friend with you to drop off/pick up the children ![Dealing with Post Separation Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/how-to-deal-with-post-separation-abuse.webp "How to Deal with Post Separation Abuse")## A STRONG SUPPORT SYSTEM IS ESSENTIAL WHEN NAVIGATING POST SEPARATION ABUSE Post-separation abuse can sometimes feel overwhelming. It’s imperative that victims develop a strong support network. Post separation abuse victims can find support from: - Safe family members - The [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group](https://www.btr.org/group/ "Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group") - Trauma-informed specialists, like [B](https://www.btr.org/individual/ "BTR coaches")[etrayal Trauma ](https://www.btr.org/individual/ "BTR coaches")[Recovery Coaches](https://www.btr.org/individual/ "BTR coaches") ## TRANSCRIPT: THE TRUTH ABOUT POST SEPARATION ABUSE **Anne:** What is post-separation abuse? Marcie’s here to tell her story. We’ll talk about the post-separation abuse she experienced since her divorce. Welcome Marcie **Marcie:** Hi. **Anne:** Can you start at the beginning of your story? **Marcie:** Before that, I’d like to share a funny story. This was when we had originally separated. I tried to send something to my husband to help him understand the situation. It happened to be something from you. And I didn’t know it was from you at the time. It just resonated with me, and I thought it would help. And since that time in all his communication, he references you as this horrible person trying to break up families. And do horrible things for women. ## EARLY RELATIONSHIP DYNAMICS **Marcie**: And I feel like it’s ironic that now I’m actually part of that community and maybe helping other women in bad situations, like I was and currently still am. **Anne:** So he introduced you to Betrayal Trauma Recovery? **Marcie:** Well, I saw something I read and didn’t know it was Betrayal Trauma Recovery. **Anne:** And then you showed him, like, hey … **Marcie:** Yeah. **Anne:** … this will help you be a better person. **Marcie:** Yes. **Anne:** And since then, I am the devil. **Marcie:** Of course. **Anne:** And it’s my fault that you’re setting boundaries, rather than his abuse, of course. **Marcie:** Yes. **Anne:** I get that a lot, no worries. I’m happy to take that heat for you. So talk about the beginning. **Marcie:** I met him in high school, and I was young. It was actually before I started high school, so I was very inexperienced with relationships or this type of behavior. And at the beginning, like most of us, it doesn’t start feeling wrong, it starts feeling great. This person is loving. I misunderstood controlling things as loving things. Like, oh, you shouldn’t do that with your friend. That might not be safe for you, but it was a controlling issue. Then we married fairly young and had kids. Then a lot of these things that now I look back with eyes open and see were wrong or damaging. I was told this is normal, I’m crazy, and all the typical things that most of us hear in these situations. And then we feel like, well, that must be true. It must be us. ## APPEASING HIM **Marcie:** I am now, in my fifties. Our relationship started when I was 14 and we married when I was 21. I feel like it took me a long time to realize that it was such a problem. But I basically tried to appease him in every way possible, because when I didn’t, it was miserable. So that happened for a long time. And then there was the fear of not appeasing him or doing things his way. **Anne:** So back then, you were doing that to protect yourself. **Marcie:** Absolutely. **Anne:** You didn’t know that you were resisting back then, but that was a form of resistance, trying to get it to stop. **Marcie:** Absolutely, I felt like if I was what he wanted me to be, then it would stop. And of course, in whatever discussions we had about it, or arguments, it was usually my fault. Whatever reaction I was getting was because I wasn’t doing something right. Or I wasn’t being what he needed me to be. So I kept trying to resist his behavior by doing whatever I could to be the best wife I could be. I literally ran myself ragged trying, but it was impossible. And it never really made things better. **Anne:** Hmm, when did you notice that wasn’t improving things for you? **Marcie:** I noticed it a long time ago. But I just kept trying, because I didn’t know what my options were. And the longer it went on, I think the more I felt like it was my fault that I couldn’t be what he needed. He kept telling me that, or that I was crazy. ## UNDERSTANDING POST SEPARATION ABUSE **Marcie:** There was one point where he, this was quite a while ago, like at least 20 years ago. He said I needed antidepressants because I was hard to deal with. Before I actually left, I realized, of course, I was depressed. I lived with someone who made it impossible to function. He made it impossible to have any type of normal life. He constantly made me feel like I was inadequate, horrible, or bad at everything I did. It was confusing. And honestly, I didn’t have much time to think about how I felt, because I was the sole financial provider for our family of eight. And I worked a lot, plus I had all the responsibilities at home. I attributed it to my busyness. Or that, I don’t know, I didn’t have much chance to think about how I was feeling. When I realized I was depressed, we tried therapy. It doesn’t work in abusive situations. And the therapist we went to was horrible, because he wouldn’t let me talk about the past. He felt like I’m going to fix this and this magical person who’s going to fix your relationship. We’re going to build from right now, and we’re not going to go into the past at all. And that was really empowering to my ex husband, because he didn’t want to talk about the past either. There was actually discussion before I went to the therapist about, you can’t talk about certain things. And I told him, well, if we don’t talk about those things, that are some of the major issues. How will we resolve our problems? And I couldn’t say certain things without fear of what the reaction would be when we returned home. ## THERAPY & DEPRESSION **Marcie:** And the therapist would not allow me to speak. And we did have a test. There were a bunch of questions that we were both supposed to fill out. I answered things honestly, and it came back that I was depressed. He mocked me for that, made fun of me for that. And it just emphasized that I was the problem because I was depressed. It emphasized his impression that it was my fault, and yeah, I couldn’t handle everything. **Anne:** He’s like, you’re going to work full time and take care of these kids full time. Your depression is causing me problems because dinner’s not on the table. He’s an exploitative person with an exploitative character. One of the things I want women to think about is what do they want? What is the goal of him telling you that you’re depressed? Is it to get you to work harder? Or is it to get you to feel bad about yourself? Is it to get you to stop trying to get him to do something? They usually have something in mind that they’re trying to accomplish. In your case, I think he probably worried you might find out who he was, because he relied on you for everything. **Marcie:** I definitely believe that was the case. That was towards the end of our, I don’t know if you could call it a relationship, whatever it was. And I had started to question him a lot more. I had started to say no a lot more, which, by the way, for anybody before they get into a relationship, there’s a simple test. ## THE “NO” TEST, MANIPULATION & CONTROL **Marcie:** It’s the ‘no” test. You say no to something and see how they react. And that’s the simplest, easiest way to figure out how people react. But I started saying no. And of course, I became more problematic. I became more difficult. **Anne:** He wanted you to continue to say yes. So he’s manipulative when he says, that’s why you’re saying no. Because you’re certainly not saying no, because it’s an unreasonable request I’m making. **Marcie:** Most of us in this situation experience the fact. That the way we do things for them, the way we bend over backwards to make them happy, they love. It’s not a problem for them at all. So they have a hard time seeing that there’s a problem in a relationship, because for them, they get what they want. And if they don’t, they throw a fit, and then usually they do. **Anne:** It’s working for them. If they can scare you enough or manipulate you enough, the victim resists this type of behavior by doing what he wants. They think that will reduce the behavior, he’s happy about that. She’s still resisting the abuse, and still trying to make things better. She’s always trying to improve her situation. And if she’s trying to improve it by being like, if I do this, he won’t get mad at me. Or if I do this, it’ll improve things. Then he’s like, cool. But he’s not thinking about you. He’s not thinking about your feelings. He’s just trying to get what he wants out of the situation. ## WHAT IS POST SEPARATION ABUSE: RECORDING CONVERSATIONS TO MAINTAIN CLARITY **Marcie:** Absolutely, that depression thing was such a small slice of, there’s gotta be something wrong with me. I started recording things to help me realize that I wasn’t crazy. At first, the only reason why I recorded was he keeps telling me something that didn’t happen. Or he keeps telling me that this conversation didn’t go the way that it did. We’d had circular arguments about well, yes, you said this and this is what you said. “No, I didn’t, I never said that. You’re wrong. See, you can’t remember things correctly. Your brain doesn’t work,” all those negative things that would make me go, what’s wrong with me? Why am I remembering these things incorrectly, or why am I remembering it differently from what he said? And in my mind, I know it went that way. So the only way I could confirm that in my brain was to record the conversations. I want to emphasize how dangerous recording can be if he found out. Because he doesn’t want that, doesn’t want to be contradicted. I started feeling empowered when I realized I’m not crazy. I’m not making this up. Sometimes he accused me of like screaming and yelling at him, and I’d listen to it. I’m like, well, I didn’t scream and yell or this didn’t happen. Whatever it was, it confirmed that what he was saying wasn’t true. And it was so helpful for me to start seeing this as abuse or to see that, there was a problem. **Anne:** Yeah, that’s very brave of you. And also really awesome. ## JOURNALING & TRAUMA RESPONSE **Anne:** When I went through it, one of the things I did for a very short time was write in my journal, good days and bad days. Because in my head, I thought, okay, he’s just wonky three days a month. And I did the math and I was like, oh, that’s only 10 percent of a month. Is three out of 30 in an ideal marriage, 27 days and 3 days a bad marriage. Is three days worth it? And I did these calculations, but when I actually wrote it down, it was happening every day. I just didn’t notice it was happening every day when I wasn’t tracking it. Recording it or journaling is so helpful. **Marcie:** I also journaled and feel like that was tremendously helpful. I did that before I started recording. Like what you said, to get an idea of what was happening. Quite a few years ago, I actually had called to get help for him because he threatened suicide. If I didn’t do things his way, he threatened suicide. And so I called for help for him. They referred to someone else, and they told me about power and control wheel. Which helped me understand this too. But I also went to a therapist at that time. And I expressed to her, we’ll have these horrible arguments in the evening. And then the next day I cannot remember them. I can’t remember what they were about. It’s like, I can’t remember anything, no matter how hard I tried. And she explained to me that that is a trauma response to help you function. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## LIVING IN BETWEEN HORRIBLE THINGS **Marcie:** She basically explained it to me, as if you remember these difficult situations, you might not be able to function the next day. And so that’s a trauma response. So writing them down is hard, because you have to address them. But then, like what you said, you thought it was only three times a month when it was every day. I think our brains want us to forget the horrible things, so we do. **Anne:** Well, and also, the next day he seems normal, at least in my experience. I thought, well, maybe I’m crazy. He seems fine today. It wasn’t like the next day he woke up and he was terrible. He acted fine. That made it confusing too like thinking, oh, it’s fine. In those times where you feel desperate for help, that’s a great time to take action. To call a local domestic violence shelter, or attend a [Betrayal Trauma Recovery group session](https://www.btr.org/group/) in that moment. Because you often let it sit for a minute, and then things seem fine, and it doesn’t seem weird to you until it happens again. So you’re always living in between. **Marcie:** That’s making sense. The only thing is for myself and my situation, I had a fear to reach out for help. Which probably a lot of us do. I just intuitively knew that would be crossing a line of his, which would send him into a negative way. ## CONFRONTING THE REALITY OF ABUSE **Marcie:** And there was a time when we had this situation. Where he chased me through the house and backed me into a corner. I put my hands up, and he was so close to me that my hands were on his chest. And I said, you need to leave me alone. And after that happened, I don’t remember how it ended. But he kept telling me that I had put my hands on him, and he could call the police and say I assaulted him. Because I put my hands on him and he didn’t touch me at all. I was trying to explain to him how that doesn’t sound right. It wasn’t the case, and he said you could call anybody and they would side with me. It was just another typical thing that he would say, how other people would feel about certain situations. And so I said, okay, well then let’s call the domestic abuse hotline right now. And he’s like, go ahead, call. He didn’t think I would call, but I did. They immediately told me, this is not a safe situation. This is not good. But after that call, he was angrier with me than I’ve ever seen him. He explained it to me as the biggest betrayal he has ever felt from me. It was worse than if I had an affair. And I feel like that was because being found out or proved wrong was the worst thing he could experience. **Anne:** Or he’s just lying in that moment. **Marcie:** Or lying. **Anne:** To make you feel like he feels super betrayed for you calling the domestic violence shelter, in order to intimidate you. **Marcie:** Yes. ## LIES & RECORDING CONVERSATIONS **Anne:** They lie so much that it’s hard to be like, yeah, that was so devastating for him. Because he told me, I’m thinking, was it? Was it devastating for him? Because he’s a liar. We just never know what is going on in their minds, since they lie so much. **Marcie:** Well, in looking back, there are so many things that are lies that I didn’t see as lies. Or didn’t want to see as lies or didn’t want to believe as lies that now I know. But that brings me back to the beauty of recording. So flash forward many years from that, that first original recording to now, where four years ago. I got a restraining order, which allowed me to record conversations between him and me, or him and the children. It’s specific for victims of domestic violence who have a restraining order. To record, so I could record and use those recordings in court. **Anne:** Did he know that you were allowed to do this? **Marcie:** Yes. **Anne:** Okay, so he knows he’s being recorded? **Marcie:** He knows he’s being recorded, but I don’t know if most of these people are like this. He’s very cocky. I think he’d forget, too. Or he didn’t care or didn’t think what he was saying was wrong. In fact, at the beginning, he definitely didn’t think what he was saying was wrong. There were recordings from when he had phone calls and supervised visits. And these were during those phone calls, and he felt okay, because this was the way he was feeling. ## DIFFERENCES BETWEEN COUNTIES DEALING WITH CUSTODY **Marcie:** So it was a right for him to let them know. But when I transcribed those recordings, things such as your mother is trying to kill me by doing this, and your mother hates me. And just things that were not appropriate for children to hear. **Anne:** You’re recording his phone calls with your kids. This is one way to combat his abuse when [fighting a narcissist for custody](/fighting-a-narcissist-for-custody/ "fighting a narcissist for custody"). **Marcie:** Correct, and this has been going on for four years. In the meantime, because of those recorded conversations, they’ve limited his phone calls to a shorter amount of time. As well as took away the supervised visits. Which he wasn’t doing anyway, because when I stopped planning them for him, it was too much work or whatever. I don’t know. He didn’t want to pay for it, but he didn’t do it, but they took away that right and made it just phone calls. But another important thing for people in the situation to know is that. The county in which you reside is the court where your custody issues will be heard. And I don’t know if that’s in all states, but I know in California, that’s the issue. So there are many counties that understand domestic abuse. And they try to understand that dynamic when they make decisions regarding the children. There are other counties that do not understand that dynamic. They tend to feel that both parents should be with the children no matter what. And they don’t take into account the background or danger. So for many women who are having some big challenges within the court system, that if they live in another county, they might get a different viewpoint and a different result. ## POST SEPARATION ABUSE INCLUDES LEGAL MANIPULATION **Marcie:** I’ve also experienced, legal abuse where he keeps going back to court. **Anne:** His post separation abuse includes him taking you back to court, even though you’re divorced and even though he has a protective order? Is his protective order still in place? **Marcie:** It was made permanent. But in his communication with me previously, he threatened me that he’s going to keep going to court. He has said, this is the only thing you understand. And he’s been in contempt in some ways that have caused me to respond to things worse that have cost me money. **Anne:** Yeah, it’s so frustrating that they can wreak so much havoc, and the court system doesn’t stop them. It’s a very difficult situation, and that’s why strategy, I think, is so important. And why I created [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). Because confronting them or communicating better, or all the things the therapist might tell you. Or a guardian ad litem might tell you, or reunification therapists will tell you, do not work. So many of you have experienced the trauma of all that. And strategy, we found, is the only thing that can help us stay sane. ## FINANCIAL MANIPULATION **Anne:** I mean, he’s costing you all this money. Since you were the primary breadwinner, did he actually start working? **Marcie:** No. **Anne:** So he’s doing legal abuse, how is he paying for his legal stuff? **Marcie:** He keeps saying he’s borrowing money, but I know he’s getting it from family members. It’s just his way. He always has people take care of him or pay for him. And it ties into his narrative of how he will describe what’s happening and make me the villain. **Anne:** To place him in the victim role. **Marcie:** Yes. **Anne:** Rather than the perpetrator. You were the primary breadwinner, did he get alimony from you? **Marcie:** No. **Anne:** Whew, he’s probably mad about that. He lost his meal ticket. **Marcie:** He did. **Anne:** Yeah, I bet that’s the thing that’s the most anger producing for him. **Marcie:** Yeah. **Anne:** You’re not good for anything now. **Marcie:** I am useless. **Anne:** Yeah, you’re completely useless to him. That’s what we want to be, we want to be useless. **Marcie:** Yes. **Anne:** To these guys. Let’s talk about the smear campaign he started. Smear campaigns are common with post separation abuse. Was this, I guess, during your divorce proceedings? ## SMEAR CAMPAIGN **Marcie:** Yes, all along, he leaves out small details, sometimes large details. Or sometimes totally represents things differently from how they are to be the victim. And when I originally contacted you, I asked how do you deal with the smear campaign. This is happening with my in-laws, and it was so upsetting to me to feel like I had lost my in-laws. I’m sure many women have felt the same feeling. I’ve known them since I was a teenager. I feel like they thought of me like a daughter, and the ironic part is they knew how he was. Not to the extent of what I knew, but they knew, and several times his dad said, I’m sorry he’s acting that way. I don’t know why he behaves that way to you sometimes, it doesn’t sound right. His mom would say similar things, things like, if he keeps treating the children that way, they’re not going to want to talk to him. They knew how he was. He would treat them that same way, but they don’t want to talk to me. My adult children have refused to talk to their father, and they feel like that’s horrible. His post separation abuse includes his lies to everyone about me. They don’t interact with them. They barely interact with their younger grandchildren anymore. And it’s just sad, but at first it was really, really upsetting. And then I realized, well, if they’re believing him. If they’re going to stand beside him when he’s abusive and believe things that aren’t true. I guess it has to be okay that those people aren’t in my life anymore. ## WHAT IS POST SEPARATION ABUSE: FALSE MEMORIES & MANIPULATION **Marcie:** Oh, that’s so hard. So, on the phone calls with the kids, he tells them things that aren’t true. Well, gosh, there are so many things that he does to them that I feel are so damaging for them. They’re not small, tiny children, but still. He plants false memories. Do you remember when we did this together, and this together? Or I have the memory of whatever it was, being miserable because he didn’t want to go, or they weren’t behaving, Like, for instance, my youngest is 12 and my oldest is 31. My ex-husband was really into baseball. He played when he was a kid. None of the kids had done any type of baseball or organized sports. The younger children wanted to, but weren’t able to when we were together. There was always an excuse we’re not going to have time, whatever. But after I left, it was the first time my youngest son was enrolled in Little League, and he loved it. My ex husband kept saying, remember when we used to go outside and play baseball all the time? I always wanted you to be in sports, but it couldn’t work because of mom’s schedule. **Anne:** It’s your mom’s fault that you couldn’t take baseball. Yeah, Um hmm. That’s one example of manipulation being a tactic of post separation abuse. Your [ex is using the kids to hurt you](/ex-uses-the-kids-to-hurt-you/ "ex is using the kids to hurt you"). **Marcie:** And I think, well, before I would have fallen into that and felt the guilt. But now I think, well, okay, if it was my fault, then how come I did that after I left you? But I couldn’t do it when there were two people in the home? ## IMPACT ON CHILDREN **Marcie:** It was so much harder to do anything. But just the false memories of, we used to go out and play catch all the time, which is not true. A lot of those type of things. The criminal things or the things he did to break the restraining order. There were so many more things, but they don’t address it in the way you’d like. Let’s put it that way. But I don’t talk to the kids about the court cases or anything like that, because I feel it’s not for them to be concerned about it. I don’t want them to be part of that. But he would tell them incorrect information about what they’re about, leave out all the important things, and tell them that Mom’s doing this because she doesn’t want me to see you. Those types of things damaged my relationship with the children. **Anne:** And that’s the point. He’s purposefully doing that to do damage. It damages you and the kids, and that is the intent of post separation abuse, which is so unfortunate. **Marcie:** It is very hard. Only two out of six of my children will speak with him. Of the two that do, that’s obviously where it’s the most damaging. I’m having trouble with my 17 year old because he’s trying to be the cool dad. He’s encouraging him to stay out late on school nights, not with friends, but with him, and he’s missed school. And he’s actually not supposed to see him, but that’s another thing. He’s luring them with being able to buy them things. **Anne:** Does he have a job now? **Marcie:** No, he does not. He gets money from family members, and he claims to be homeless. Yet he purchases things for them. ## PROCESSING THE ABUSE **Marcie:** That’s where recording comes in wonderfully, because we do have a court case that he started. He wants custody again. And I think this time I’m including a lot of recordings that I’ve transcribed, which has been helpful. **Anne:** It started when you were 14, and has continued this whole time, and everything he’s done has been part of that con. And he continues to do that con. You are experiencing post separation abuse. He lies to your kids, and he lies to everybody else. So the whole thing has been the show. So if you can think of it in that overarching way of, it’s been this show. And then, how do you tell the story within that con? That might help you process it. **Marcie:** When you put it in that sense, it is just a continuous con. He’s just reaching and grabbing for different cons that will work. That helps put it in perspective. **Anne:** Yeah, because he’s doing the same thing over and over. Even though it’s maybe not the same lie. It’s lying in a different way, but it’s still just lying. **Marcie:** Looking back at it, it feels so surreal. Like it feels like it’s not real because it’s so insane. Does that make sense? **Anne:** Um hmm, totally. **Marcie:** And I feel like people aren’t going to believe me, because how could that be true? How could anyone act like that? Plus, he’s saying something different. So I think I still have a lot of healing to do, which is frustrating. ## WHAT IS POST SEPARATION ABUSE: WE CAN HELP YOU UNDERSTAND **Anne:** That’s the purpose of this podcast. It’s a safe place where everybody gets it and believes you. We don’t care what he says or thinks, we know he’s a liar. Here, you’re 100% believed. What is post separation abuse? We know and can help. So because of that, it’s such a safe place to be. Like, I can share my story, and he’s not going to talk back to me. **Marcie:** Sometimes when you share your story with people who don’t understand, they back away or it’s just too much. **Anne:** With me, I’m like, tell me more. So thank you so much, Marcie. **Marcie:** Thank you so much. ## FROM CONFUSION TO CLARITY: ANOTHER WOMAN’S STORY OF POST SEPARATION ABUSE **Anne:** I’m so excited to have another member of our community on today’s episode. We’re going to call her Mykell. She’s a single mother of three and believes women can discover a life of peace, power and purpose post separation. Even if they’re experiencing post separation abuse. Welcome Mykell. **Mykell:** Thank you so much for having me. I’m so glad to talk to you. **Anne:** Your story is similar to so many of our stories where you didn’t know that you were being abused. And you figured it out. Can you tell us your story? **Mykell:** For me, the story is a slow unfolding one. I met my ex-husband when I was in high school. Anybody who knew us could say that our relationship had been rocky from the start. Me, being 17 years old and not knowing much about myself or relationship dynamics. I just thought, all relationships are hard, and I’m not perfect either. ![Identifying Post Separation Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/what-is-post-separation-abuse.webp "What is Post Separation Abuse")And gradually over the years and decades, as things unfolded. It became clear that there was a spiritual separation in our relationship. As he continued to make various choices. It got rockier, and the thing that’s confusing in these situations is I’m not a shrinking violet. So when someone consistently attacks you, sometimes you will stand up for yourself, you’ll fight back. So that’s what kept things confusing for me for a long time. Going round and around and around was this thought that I’m participating in how this relationship is shaping up. As time went on, I started to say, I don’t want to respond this way anymore. I don’t want to live my life like this anymore. ## SEEKING HELP **Mykell:** And I started seeking counseling on my own, and in the midst of that, the relationship actually got worse. So in choosing to disengage and better ways of handling my own emotions in the situation. It made it clear that we were on two separate paths. As life continued to go on, there were some choices he made that eventually were deal breakers and broke everything apart. I started getting language for what I was going through, and started getting clarity. It’s been three years since the marriage ended, but now through the community to connect with other women who are going through the same things. I started that healing process. And get help with post separation abuse. ![Fighting Post Separation Abuse from Your Ex](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/post-separation-abuse-from-your-ex.webp "Post Separation Abuse from Your Ex")**Anne:** What brought you to understand that what you experienced was abuse? This it wasn’t just that[ marriage is hard work](/marriage-is-hard-work/ " marriage is hard work"). Overall, you were realizing, wait a minute, these behaviors I’m seeing in him are unhealthy, the healthier you got. But what actually helped you consider abuse? ## RECOGNIZING ABUSE PATTERNS **Mykell:** I went to a counselor about a totally separate issue. It started to unravel as I explained to her, well, this happened, and then he said this and yada, yada. She said to me, you know, this is abuse, right? And I thought to myself, really? I don’t know that I fully grabbed onto what she was saying. But I started reading some books, and I started seeing my story in what these experts were writing about. **Mykell:** And I thought, how did I ever miss this? We think we’re going to see this thing coming from a mile away, and it’s going to be so obvious that we’re going to know. But so often something feels off, but you probably would not put that word abuse to it. You’d probably say this person has anger issues or this person had trauma in their backstory or … **Anne:** They have an addiction. **Mykell:** Yep, it’s something that we end up couching underneath this banner of imperfection that we all have. Not realizing that the power dynamics are intentional, that there’s something bigger at play. ![When Your Ex Uses The Kids As A Weapon](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/t-Kt15CpMdY/maxresdefault.jpg) I said, I didn’t want to be part of that kind of thing anymore. And so that was how the road started to get to being healthy. It became so clear that we had different intentions about the way that was all going to happen. **Anne:** Different ways of viewing the relationship. You were viewing it as a partnership, and he’s viewing it as I have power over, essentially. Which continues with post separation abuse. Especially if they’re doing an [in-home separation](/in-home-separation/ "in-home separation"). **Mykell:** I hesitate to say relationship. The only way this sort of arrangement continues is when there’s a disparity, and one of the parties is seeing this as a means to an end. ## POST SEPARATION ABUSE: POWER DYNAMICS IN RELATIONSHIPS **Anne:** He has some goal is controlling the information. For example, there’s a power differential because they have more information than someone else. Before you ever defined it as abuse, did you define it as a addiction? **Mykell:** This was something completely. under the radar for me. I was not even aware of all the things going on. Some behaviors and things unbeknownst to me started to come out in the midst of that process. But there was nothing before. That was like a precursor. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) **Anne:** So you were like, something is wrong, but you couldn’t put your finger on it. And the abuse came first. And then later you realized, Oh, and he’s also using pornography. That’s important to talk about, because so many people don’t include the this when they talk about abuse. And I always want to bring it into the story to say, and there was an issue here. So people know it is part of this mess of unhealthiness. **Mykell:** Yeah, and I think the thing we have to recognize with the mess of unhealthiness. There are so many types of abuse when you’re looking at the classification of what’s domestic violence. So often we think that’s only physical. And there’s emotional, there’s sexual, there’s spiritual, financial, so many ways that someone can gain power over another person. And often it’s not even just one or two. It often covers all these categories, and so because it can be very encompassing, it makes it hard to see. **Anne:** Yeah, if it were just he’s absolutely shutting down the bank account and won’t let you have any money. That might be a little more obvious. Especially with post separation abuse. ## CHALLENGES OF CO-PARENTING **Anne:** But the little ways he’s financially abusive, or if he said God told me I can beat you up. You’d be like, well, that’s clear it’s spiritual abuse. But it’s unclear if it’s spiritual abuse if he’s kneeling down and praying by you and saying, please help my wife be more godly. Help her understand how to be a better wife, [when biblical submission becomes abuse](/when-biblical-submission-becomes-abuse/ "when biblical submission becomes abuse"). That doesn’t necessarily feel like spiritual abuse. From your experience, what issues do single mothers commonly encounter when raising children with an abuser? Especially [counter parenting](/counter-parenting/). Now, when I say raising them with an abuser, meaning you’re divorced from them, but they’re still in your life because they’re your child’s parent. **Mykell:** Right, one of the difficult things is constantly trying to explain things to your former partner or trying to make decisions with them. As though they can have effective, honest, open communication. So often, it’s just a continued open door for manipulation and control to continue with post separation abuse. It is so essential to understand that it is possible to continue this walk without continually having to hand your life back over to this person. **Anne:** Even if you’re expertly skilled at dealing with your ex, and you’ve got great boundaries. And you’re detached and you have all the skills going for you. Your ex can still technically abuse you because you’re being lied to, you’re being manipulated. It’s still not your fault if you don’t “communicate perfectly” with your abuser. He’s abusing you. You can do your best to be as highly skilled as possible in communication with an abuser. ## LIVING FREE WORKSHOP **Anne:** But it still has nothing to do with you, and it’s not your fault if they still don’t react well to whatever you try. I struggled with post-separation abuse for eight years after divorce. Until I found the strategies that really, really worked, and was able to completely.deliver myself and my kids. I put those strategies in [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). It saved me, it absolutely saved me. I mentored five different women to ensure that these strategies worked. And those women’s actual real life messages are in that workshop. **Mykell:** Yep, having specific tactics is great, and also having a certain mindset. So if this person has lied to you, manipulated you, you can expect that’s still happening. ## POST SEPARATION ABUSE: USE *OUR FAMILY WIZARD* **Mykell:** What you do in your communication is limit the opportunities for that to occur. I’m not going to get into the emotions or reason, or I don’t like that you did that. Not having to get too deep into the weeds. When you’re getting stuff hurled at you, absolutely have those safe people you’re like, I can’t believe this happened. They can help you work through the frustration, disappointment and hurt that is necessary. It makes it easy to say, okay, I’m only gonna show what needs to be forward facing to this person. In terms of the logistic side of this. But when it comes to all my emotional stuff, I’ve got safe people, and I know where to get the support I need. Depending on your situation, it may cause things to get a little riled up. For a while, they want to see if they can get a reaction from you. But over time, if you’re consistent and don’t offer reactions, and we’re not trying to be friends. Then it can get to a workable place in many instances. **Anne:** So for a long time on the podcast, I touted no contact, which I did through my father, and that worked, and I was like, everybody should do this. But then I had a custody case that I lost. In the process, I needed to switch to *Our Family Wizard*, rather than go through my dad, so that I could communicate directly with him, which I do now. I still have blocked him on my phone, blocked him on email. And I only communicate with him through *Our Family Wizard*. I never communicate with him in any other way. It needs to be taken seriously for all women dealing with an abusive ex-husband. ## MANIPULATED PARENTING **Anne:** Many people have this idea in their heads. One of the manipulative things he told me was, I dream of a day where we can sit on a park bench and watch our kids play and get along. He said that to me to manipulate me into communicating with him. And I’m like, that’s never going to happen. Let’s talk about that idea, the concept of co-parenting when it comes to post separation abuse. Can you co parent with an abuser? Mykell: The word co-parenting suggests you have two people who are parenting together. We have to recognize that in some divorce cases, people can maintain an amicable relationship. In which the children are not being used as power weapons. The relationship dynamic is not this push-pull. These two people are going on with the best interests of the kids. Because if this person is not going to put the kid’s best interest first, and is not going to play by the rules. If you can’t establish any rules without them being manipulated. Then you know that you are parenting on your own, and this person is parenting on their own. **Anne:** I wouldn’t even call it parenting. It’s like you’re parenting on your own, and this other person is like actively trying to cause problems, which is not what I would call parenting. **Mykell:** It’s difficult, because we want so much to have influence over what is happening in that household, and we’re just not able to. That is the part that gets really hard, it gets heavy, it’s disconcerting, it’s scary. When you’re in that kind of situation while your kids are with you, that you are present with them. ## BEING YOUR KID’S SAFE PLACE **Mykell:** If you can bring wonderful, healthy people into their lives to do outings with them, and I’m not saying you have to be super mom. I’m not saying you have to throw these elaborate birthday parties. This is about being your kid’s safe place. So if there are unsafe things happening when they’re away from you, and this is something we would want. Whether that unsafe stuff was happening at a parent’s house or in school. They know Mom is safe, that when I bring her my problem, she will listen and comfort me. Maybe offer some support or solutions. Learning how to do that when you yourself are underwater is hard. The investments that you put into yourself as far as your own healing and support groups will pass on to your kids. If you’re like, that sounds overwhelming. That’s a lot of things. Even focusing on getting stable, healthy, and strong yourself, you’ll know what conversations you should bring up. You’ll know when your child says, I don’t like that, the other parents doing X, Y, or Z. They can come to you and offer them real compassion. For every little thing that happens, we worry so much that, this is not going the way I wanted. And this is going to be their doom. God is so much bigger than all the things that we’re going through with post separation abuse. If we look at this from a long range perspective, I want to be that safe place for my kids and do the best I can to be there for them. When they start to feel the friction, and start to feel like something is wrong. They know they have an option, and whether they choose it, that’s also out of our control. ## POST SEPARATION ABUSE: USE PARALLEL PARENTING **Mykell:** There are so many parts of life in general, and this is one of them, outside our control. We do our best to create a safe and solid place, beginning with our own health. **Anne:** So the short answer is no. You cannot co-parent with an abuser. Parallel parenting is the way to go. You just worry about what’s going on when you’re the parent and do the best you can. And then the things he’s doing, you could confront him about it, but we all know where that goes. Speaking of parallel parenting with post separation abuse, can you talk about that for a minute? **Mykell:** This goes back to trying to manage the feelings. Let’s say there’s a divorce decree, and let’s say dad is supposed to take the kids on this night and this night. It’s a fine balance here when they perhaps would say something like, oh, well, I can’t take them that night. I’ll take them this one or, oh, sorry. I had to do this, and I can’t come get them tonight. We want to say, well, this is what the paper says, this is what the agreement is. Sometimes we might get so caught in those very specific rules. Hey no, you should want to take your kids, or you should want to be with them, or you should be coming to their things. We’re re-engaging, and it’s an open door for a discussion or argument. Their choices are their own choices. And so if the child’s not being picked up and hurts their feelings. The fix is not necessarily to say, I need to figure out a way to get him to pick our child up. ## MANAGING EXPECTATIONS **Mykell:** This is a way for the child to understand his choices. Sometimes it’s hurtful to have to walk our kids through that. We can’t cover up or try to get them to do what they’re supposed to do, or make excuses. In this instance, the sugar coating is more harmful, they’re not able to discern the truth. That’s the biggest thing: always give kids as much age appropriate truth as they can digest. And that’s where learning how to offer support is so important, because it is truth, with love. It’s truth saying. I know this is hurtful, and I’m sorry this is happening. We’re not going to be able to fix it. If we want our kids to understand where that road to healing can come from, if we’re truthful with them all along the way. How we empower our kids by giving them truth, rather than trying to sweep it under the rug, fix it, or cover it up. **Anne:** Or manage an abuser’s relationship with his children. **Mykell:** Yeah, I love that word “management.” It’s such a perfect word. You can’t go in there and manage everything with post separation abuse. Sometimes the best thing you can do is simply allow that thing to play itself out. And as much as we would not want to see our kids hurt, as much as we would not want them to suffer anymore. It is a greater disservice if you are whitewashing the whole thing. Making it look like it’s not, because then eventually the truth does come out. And then they will be frustrated with you for not being truthful with them. It can cause them to feel alienated. It can cause them to feel that you’re not safe. ## EMPOWERING CHILDREN **Mykell:** That’s the biggest thing that we can offer our kids in these situations with post separation abuse, is that safe place. **Anne:** Yeah, that drives me crazy when someone does something clearly not a good thing that a parent would do. And a neighbor or some “helpful” bystander will say, well, of course he loves you. He’s just busy. Or of course he cares about you. He just, and I’m like, no, no, no you’re not his top priority, not that I would necessarily say that, but let that play out. And never tell your kid, of course, he loves you when you’re like, he’s incapable of loving anyone. **Mykell:** And the thing that ends up happening if you do that is you’re essentially gaslighting your kid. You’re causing them to question their own reality when you call it something else. **Anne:** Because they don’t feel loved, for good reason, because their dad is selfish or incapable of loving them. So in that way, what are your thoughts about raising a child in ways that prevent them from being manipulated or deceived? How can we help our kids recognize the truth with post separation abuse? **Mykell:** This is something built up over time. You’re not going to have a one-time conversation with your child about the things they’re going through. Or, hey, watch out for this, and then that’s it. If you’re having ongoing conversations with them, this can even be manipulation at school with bullies. Recognizing, how did you feel when that person treated you that way? Practicing with them what it is to identify feelings gives them the ability to process, watch and give context. ## POST SEPARATION ABUSE: EQUIPPING CHILDREN **Mykell:** As they get older, they start to look at inconsistencies, recognize them, and try to make sense of them. If they do bring you a concern, that validation of what they see or feel is so good. You can do that in a way that is not making the thing personal, it’s not bashing, it’s simply saying you see a behavior and it makes you feel uncomfortable. That is normal. As they start to have those conversations with you, they can trust you. That instinct, or that move of the Holy Spirit, the inner voice that says, something feels unsafe and uncomfortable here. What often happens, I think, in manipulative dynamics. There is some sort of off moment, some red flag, something that is seen and not acted upon, or it’s explained away. So one of the best things we can do for our kids in post separation abuse situations is equip them. When they see something strange or bad, inconsistent or manipulative. That we can put that right word to it and say, yeah, that is confusing. It makes sense that you’d be confused in that situation. This is where, in parallel parenting, you’re not able to control what happens over at that other house. But you can send your kids into any environment with an understanding of what to do if they feel uncomfortable. That may look different depending on whether they have devices, whether they can drive. But it’s teaching them what are those healthy ways to address these situations. Because very often they’re not going to feel they can stand up and say something, and they may feel even in the moment, like they can’t even go anywhere. ## HELPING CHILDREN WITH SAFETY **Mykell:** It’s letting them know. Hey, if you feel something’s funny, write it down. Or if you need to text me or you need a FaceTime or you need to leave the room and go to your bedroom. Whatever it is you devise with your child, to let them know some way to get to safety. If they’re in a dangerous situation, we want to make sure they understand how to get hold of safe adults or support authorities. **Anne:** Yeah, for good little kids, I liked the book, Say No, and Tell. There’s a girl version and a boy version. It’s generally about sexual abuse, but it gives many examples: this is safe, this is unsafe, this is safe, this is unsafe. Even just using books like that to start conversations about it. My kids now tell me all the time when they feel safe or unsafe, or when they feel uncomfortable. My little six year old is so good at saying, mom, I’m uncomfortable. This makes me feel uncomfortable, and I’m grateful. **Mykell:** That’s so good. Just saying uncomfortable is great. Sometimes they can’t figure out what the feeling is, or even like the word overwhelmed. Like there’s a lot of feelings. I don’t know what they all are. Saying if you don’t know what all those are right now, that’s okay. All you know is your body’s giving you an alert that you can honor that alert system. And that you can get to safety. **Anne:** One of the things that victims feel, Sheroes who have pulled themselves out of the depths of abuse. They make their way to safety, and don’t feel confident. Because a lifetime of abuse or years of abuse or continued post separation abuse has really messed with our brains. ## BUILDING CONFIDENCE AS A MOM **Anne:** This can be true when dating when an ex has [covert narcissist traits](/covert-narcissist-traits/). And our psychology, and the amount of doubt we have in ourselves from emotional and psychological abuse, is pretty extreme. We’re learning to trust ourselves again. We’re learning to trust our intuition again. There are so many things that as a victim of abuse, you’re learning to do either again or for the first time. So in what ways can moms be confident in raising their kids, even in a less than ideal situation? **Mykell:** Yeah, I love that you pointed to the fact that there’s a lot of doubt that every mom experiences. And then with abuse and post separation abuse, there’s this added layer on top of it. And it’s the inability to discern sometimes what is even going on. Sometimes it’s a paralysis of not knowing what to do. Giving yourself grace to know that’s the boat you’re in right now. Just because you’re there right now. It doesn’t mean you’re always going to feel that way, or that if you do feel that way, you’re always going to feel powerless about it. You’re not doing this all by yourself. For me, figuring out how to raise my kids with this different life, this life I didn’t intend for us. Wonderful people dropped into my life that had walked the road before me that could show me. What this thing was supposed to look like. And it didn’t mean everything was going to be exactly cookie cutter. Sometimes it’s moms sharing the things they’re going through in [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group](https://www.btr.org/group/ "Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group"). Sharing their legal troubles or discipline issues. In support groups, you realize, I am not alone. I’m not the only one who feels like this. ## POST SEPARATION ABUSE: CONFIDENCE STARTS WITH VALIDATION **Mykell:** I’m not the only one whose kid is doing this or whose ex is doing that. So much confidence starts when your experience is validated and you’re being heard. And you see that many people are going through similar things. And when there are so many ideas around things you could do or avenues you could take. That I think is so empowering to say there’s actually more than one way to walk through this. Though I may not get it perfectly, we’re all in this together. When you’re coming out of this kind of situation, you feel isolated, and sometimes you’ve been isolated. So self isolating is a normal thing. And forcing yourself back out and learning how to trust people can be hard. I’m so thankful that we’re in this digital age where these virtual groups are possible, a community. So when you think about what is the practical step, how do I start to do this? Working through your own healing journey is a big part of that. And God brings the ultimate transformation for us as we walk through these things with him. But one of the practical ways we experience is with other wonderful, safe people around us. **Anne:** We’ve seen that a lot at Betrayal Trauma Recovery and [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group](https://www.btr.org/group/). It’s awesome, because there’s no right way to do it. There are principles. Using boundaries to detach and keep safe, self care, a network of support. Anyone who’s worth their salt in recovering from abuse or post separation abuse will tell you those things. Those are important tools, but sometimes implementing it is hard, and how you’re going to implement it in your own life is hard. ## GROUP MEETINGS ARE IMPORTANT FOR RECOVERY **Anne:** Being part of a group and hearing how other women do it, or hearing other women and realizing, that doesn’t sound like it’s working. You don’t have to say that out loud, but at least you can hear it and think, okay, I don’t want to try that. It’s cool to share what’s happening with you and hear what’s happening with other people. Then the freedom to choose what you want to do. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we don’t recommend any particular life decisions. We put safety as the top priority, emotional, psychological, and physical. How you do that is up to you. I think women need the support of a community without the dogma of the community. Does that make sense? **Mykell:** Yeah, the thing that is so critical about what you’re saying is the style points. She did it this way, and that doesn’t fit my personality, but she did it this way. There’s so much in recovery that is about finding your own voice and making choices for yourself. And so many of these things, like you said, boundaries is a perfect example. Boundaries were so hard for me. I didn’t realize I didn’t have any. Or I didn’t realize that mine were so porous. And I would look at other women and be like, oh, no, that’s so abrupt. I don’t like the way they’re doing that. In the midst of getting to know different people, though, it was like, oh, that style works for me. It’s rediscovering, and I actually don’t like to say rediscovering, because I don’t know if we ever knew ourselves. Sometimes with these things, it’s discovering who you are, what your unique voice is, and how you can assert yourself in these instances of abuse and post separation abuse. ## CHRISTIAN PERSPECTIVES ON ABUSE **Mykell:** It’s empowering. I’m feeling juiced up as I say this, to start to recognize how much agency you have. That’s what makes many of these tactics come to life. When you start to figure out your own voice. **Anne:** At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we’re interfaith, inter paradigm. We have atheists who listen, we have agnostics, and all denominations of Christianity, Jewish women, everyone is welcome here. Talk about some of the Christian myths or unhealthy cultural ideas in Christianity that harm women and keep them stuck in abuse. **Mykell:** One of the things we have to separate out, and this is not just when it comes to abuse or post separation abuse. There are so many areas. Not always do people reflect the heart of God perfectly. People, whether intentionally or unintentionally, can hurt each other with the banner of the gospel to justify their choices or behaviors. And recognize that there are some things that maybe a woman’s been told. Maybe she’s witnessed, maybe she’s experienced, maybe she’s been raised up in systems, all these kinds of things that don’t necessarily reflect the heart of God. So often there is this sense that whether it’s the husband or ex-husband who’s the abuser. Often women receive advice, and it’s well meaning in abuse or post separation abuse. But sometimes the advice is, you be the best you can be, and this person will change. Biblically, the word says God hates abuse. He hates it. In Proverbs 6, you can read through there. It says there are seven things God hates, and it lists off lying lips and hands that shed blood, and all these things. That if you look at them, they are the behaviors of an abuser. **Anne:** Adultery, lust. ## POST SEPARATION ABUSE: BIBLICAL TEACHINGS ON ABUSE **Mykell:** There’s a passage, and I’m going to mess it up right now because it’s not sitting in front of me, but I believe it’s in 2nd Timothy 1. Paul says to Timothy, in the last days, people will be lovers of self. They’re going to be abusive. They’re going to look like they have godliness, that they’re going to portray godliness, but be totally lacking its power. And that we should avoid such people. Those are pretty clear statements to say that you need to get away from somebody who’s abusive, someone who is using spiritual means to manipulate other people. And Paul thought it was so obvious and so dangerous that he thought to write to Timothy about it. And so we should take that same warning. With a community of believers, there’s vulnerability, and with that comes manipulation from people who would use it for selfish gain. So the intention in our communities should be to offer safety and vulnerability, and to ensure that we are clear about rooting out what would take advantage of that. That’s not always the message that people receive that are in abusive type of circumstances. **Anne:** In the church, when you talk about evil, or you talk about wolves in sheep’s clothing. You’re thinking about it as someone outside the church who’s trying to lure you away from the church. Or trying to influence you to not live the commandments. And it’s so infrequent that anyone addresses evil in the church. Or in your own home. ## RECOGNIZING EVIL **Mykell:** Yeah, and the Bible says Satan will masquerade as an angel of light. We need to recognize that. Yes, can there be people from the outside trying to come in and infiltrate the inside? 100%, but do they also exist on the inside? Also, yes, 100%. **Anne:** Right, and it might be in your own home. **Mykell:** Mm hmm, that’s right. We have to recognize, and Jesus goes through the steps in Matthew 18. We are called to see it, call it what it is, and we’re called to move ourselves away from that and get to safety. That is a biblical way of handling an abusive situation. Your life is precious to God, and all that is designed to keep you very much fixed in the center of his love and protection for you. There’s only so much you can do to walk with somebody when they are resistant. They don’t want to see the truth, that we’re called to move ourselves away from that, so that they can walk in their own path. God desires safety for his people, does desire them to flourish. He desires each woman in this instance to become the woman he had designed her to be, and not sacrifice that for the sake of a person who is not willing to turn their lives over. **Anne:** They’re essentially sacrificing it to evil almost. And women think of it as sacrificing themselves to something better, because they’re trying to protect their families. But the reality is they’re not sacrificing themselves to something better. They’re sacrificing themselves to abuse, which is not the better way. ## CALLING OUT & SEPARATING FROM WICKEDNESS **Mykell:** Calling it evil is so important. If the Bible says God hates it, we should hate it. If it says it’s evil, we should call it evil. It’s not a bad behavior. bad manners, or short temper. It’s evil. All of these things are considered abuse. **Anne:** The scriptures don’t say abuser, the scriptures use the word wicked. I’m loving that word. **Mykell:** Right, in Proverbs often you’ll see the word wicked, mocker, sometimes fool. Proverbs uses a handful of different words to describe people who do these things. But in all these instances, it says to get away. It says if you rebuke a mocker, they’re going to abuse you. So that says you’re not going to have a reasonable conversation with this person. Sometimes your separation, your distance, your movement away from this person is the communication. It’s certainly meant for you to gain some distance and safety, because it’s much more likely they’re going to influence you than you’re going to influence them. **Anne:** We suffer from betrayal trauma, which changes the way we think, changes our brains, changes our chemistry in our bodies. So many women suffer from health problems and depression. It’s a serious issue. Thank you so much for coming on today’s episode. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Marriage Therapy for Infidelity? The Risks You Need to Know](https://www.btr.org/marriage-therapy-for-infidelity/) **Published:** September 1, 2026 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** If marriage therapy for infidelity includes a therapeutic disclosure, this is what you need to know. **Content:** By the time many women find Betrayal Trauma Recovery they’ve already been through years of couples counseling, addiction therapy, or programs focused on **marriage therapy for infidelity**, hoping a professional will help them finally piece together what really happened. Therapists in recovery programs sometimes use a tool called a **therapeutic disclosure** to guide the couple to the “whole truth” about a husband’s history of addiction, secrecy, and infidelity. But these disclosures take months, even up to a year to complete, leaving his wife waiting on more information about the betrayals, being re-traumatized by each new revelation, and potentially exposing her to more lies and emotional abuse. To see if any of the things he’s disclosing qualify as emotional abuse, take our[ free emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ## 5 WAYS MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY DELAYS EMOTIONAL SAFETY ### 1. MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY OFTEN STARTS WITH THE WRONG QUESTION Marriage therapy for infidelity often starts by focusing on “why” a husband lied and cheated, even going so far as to frame it as a “marriage issue.” In this case, the betrayed wife is asked to patiently wait through her husband’s process of feeling safe enough to tell the truth. The first question a therapist should be asking is what his wife needs “right now” for emotional safety. ### 2. MANIPULATION OFTEN CONTINUES INSIDE MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY Marriage therapy for infidelity isn’t a good fit for couples when a husband has lied to and manipulated his wife to hide his infidelity, because his choice to do those things is an individual character issue. If he hasn’t made any effort before now to admit this, to accept the consequences, or repair the harm his choices caused his wife, it’s likely that he’ll just continue his pattern of manipulation in therapy. ### 3. THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY CAN MISS THE REAL PROBLEM: EMOTIONAL ABUSE Infidelity involves lying, manipulation, coercion, and control, which are all forms of emotional abuse. Emotionally abusive men aren’t abusive simply because of trauma or shame. Abuse is a choice. Because therapeutic disclosures often keep women in close proximity to emotional abuse, it’s important to understand how manipulation can continue during the process. Abusive men often use “trickle truth,” revealing small pieces of information over time. What looks like honesty can actually be a calculated way prolong his manipulation and control of the situation. The therapist and his wife keep chasing reasons while the abuse continues. In situations like this, it’s often safer for the betrayed wife not to participate in the abusive partner’s therapy process at all. ### 4. MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY CAN TEACH A MANIPULATOR HOW TO SOUND EMPATHETIC In many recovery programs, therapists will try to help a husband who has lied and cheated to express remorse by using empathy statements. But if he doesn’t actually have empathy for his wife’s suffering, those tools can just be performative. He may sound understanding without truly changing his behavior. Before, you might have been able to tell when he lacked empathy. After therapy, he may simply have better words to hide it. ### 5. THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY CAN PROLONG MANIPULATION The process of crafting a therapeutic disclosure in marriage therapy for infidelity can take months or even years. And he’s likely going to manipulate you throughout the entire process, so it just prolongs his manipulation. Instead of convincing a husband to do a therapeutic disclosure, women who experience betrayal can focus on their own emotional and psychological safety. - **Learn More About the Risks of Marriage Therapy for Infidelity:** Listen to [The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast](https://www.btr.org/podcast/). - **Determine Her Husband’s True Character:** Enroll in [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) to determine if your husband is emotionally abusive and to gain strategies for safety. - **Get Professional Support**: Facing this type of abuse is difficult. There is a community of women who understand. [Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY.](https://www.btr.org/group/) ## TRANSCRIPT: MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY? THE RISKS YOU NEED TO KNOW **Anne:** Welcome to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I’m Anne. By the time betrayed women find my organization, Betrayal trauma Recovery, they’ve already spent years and tons of money on couple therapy or addiction therapy like for sex addiction. Even if you’ve never considered marriage therapy for infidelity, if you are trying to get the truth out of your husband, asking questions like, “Did you have an affair?”, “When did the affair start?” Or “That one night you said you couldn’t help me with my project. Were you with her?” you’re likely frustrated and confused. I’ve interviewed more women than I can count who have been to marriage therapy for infidelity and revealed what actually happens. Usually the therapist suggests a therapeutic disclosure as part of that therapy process. I’m gonna do a quick overview right now of the five things I’m gonna cover in depth today, And then after I’ll go into the details of each of these things. So here’s the quick overview. ## 5 RISKS OF THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY **Anne:** Here’s the quick overview: - Asking a liar to tell you the truth about what he lied about is problematic. So whether your therapist says that he can get him to tell the truth, or if you’re a woman who’s trying to by asking him questions, either way, you need to know what obstacles you might to run into. - Even if he says he’s willing to go to therapy for infidelity, or the therapist tells you that the truth will come out, think about his history. If he’s always told you what you wanna hear, this could be just a continuation of that. And there’s a way to know if this time it’s different. - Let’s say he did tell the truth of all of his sexual indiscretions. Even in that case, it won’t account for all the gaslighting. It’s highly unlikely that he’ll tell you all of his efforts to hide what he was doing, amounts to emotional and psychological abuse. There’s so much here, so stick around so I can explain everything. - If he’s lying, marriage therapy for infidelity is going to backfire because he is gonna start using therapy language in order to better manipulate you. I’ll share the things that therapists give him in order to “help” him. Like empathy scripts tend to make it worse because he is not actually empathetic. Whereas before you could tell he wasn’t empathetic. - In terms of a therapeutic disclosure, that process can take months or even years. And he’s likely going to manipulate you throughout the entire process, so it just prolongs his manipulation. So if you’ve been trying to get the truth out of your husband and you’re considering maybe marriage therapy for infidelity, I just want you to understand the risks involved before you schedule an appointment. ## WHAT IS A THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURE IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY **Anne:** When you discover your husband is looking at online content, lying, having affairs, or soliciting, someone might tell you, or you may think he’s a sex addict. And if you go to addiction therapy. There’s a high likelihood that an addiction therapist, will have him do a therapeutic disclosure. So we’re going to talk about why I think therapeutic disclosures are dangerous. And then you decide what you want to do after listening to what I have to say. So, first of all, what is a therapeutic disclosure? It is a process that involves the addict disclosing their full history to his wife. In a “so-called structured way” with the guidance of a therapist. In theory, the purpose of a therapeutic disclosure is to provide the betrayed wife all the information she needs. For her to make informed decisions about the relationship moving forward. Now, I want to talk about all the reasons why that doesn’t make sense. First of all, their history does not include all the times they manipulated their wife over little and big things. All the lies, all the emotional and psychological abuse, and the coercion. It does not address his emotional abuse, which is the actual problem. If you take that to the next logical step, you might say, then I’m going to get them in an abuse program. Well, an abuse program is pretty much the exact same thing. It’s in a couple setting where the wife says, Hey, these are the things I need to see. This is what I want to know. ![Marriage Therapy for Infidelity](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Marriage-Therapy-For-Infidelity-1-1.webp "Marriage Therapy for Infidelity")## THE RISKS Of THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY **Anne:** There’s really no difference. [Your abusive husband can manipulate the therapist](https://www.btr.org/your-abusive-husbands-therapist/). He can take his time and drag it out. Like he has a lot of control to exploit that situation. So abuse experts understand that anything therapeutic will worsen the abuse. Because men aren’t abusive because of their childhood trauma or shame, or for any other reason other than they want to exploit people. I know many people with childhood trauma. I feel shame. And I watch a lot of TV sometimes, or I might go for a walk. I call my sister, you know, some people use model trains. Abuse is not the only option here. There are so many other options. Nothing’s gonna stop him from wanting to exploit the situation. Except for him wanting to stop. And if he wanted to stop, he wouldn’t be like that in the first place. So abuse is a choice. The purpose of therapy is to uncover the underlying cause of a person’s behavior. So in therapy, an abusive, manipulative, deceitful man will run the therapist and his wife in circles. He’ll give both of them all sorts of reasons. And most of these reasons are lies, and then these “reasons” take on a life of their own. So it’s best to stay away from being involved in an abusive man’s therapy, treatment, or program at all costs. A therapist could tell you that a therapeutic disclosure is important, to “avoid trickle disclosures.” And that sounds like a good idea. If a therapist tells you we’re going to do this, so you can get the whole truth. So he doesn’t just give you a little information. here and there. ## WAITING FOR A THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURE CAN KEEP WOMEN IN UNSAFE SITUATIONS **Anne:** But what they won’t tell you is this is just an abuser lying. He’ll disclose bits of information tactically to manipulate, distress you or drag things out. They know that this process of disclosing things at tactical times gives them control. So they’re going to prolong the process for as long as possible to maintain that control. Throughout that whole thing she’s still unsafe. She’s unsafe at every point. Not realizing she’s being lied to and manipulated, staying in contact with his constant abuse. Most often in the form of grooming. And because they’re doing this, victims undergo immense trauma for that time. Now, even if they don’t realize it, it seems like it’s going well. So many women come to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, and share six months after the disclosure or two years later. They realize what was happening. And they realized it was all lies and manipulation. They are so traumatized that they spent that much time basically just in this fog. With a therapist possibly enabling their continued abuse. Years ago, when I started podcasting, I interviewed a C-SAT about disclosures. She disagrees with me and thinks disclosures are great. And she uses them in her practice. When I interviewed her, it was really at the beginning. I didn’t love disclosures, but I was willing to have an open-mind. I posted the interview on my podcast, and then pretty soon after removed it. Because I realized this is problematic, and I don’t want to hurt someone’s reputation. My podcast isn’t a gotcha podcast. I appreciate everyone who has spent the time to come and be interviewed. ![What is a Full Therapeutic Disclosure with Polygraph](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-Is-A-Full-Therapeutic-Disclosure-With-Polygraph.webp "What is a Full Therapeutic Disclosure with Polygraph")## QUESTIONS ABOUT THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY **Anne:** Sometimes I disagree with people. And because of the way the interview goes, I don’t air that episode. Because I want to make sure I’m putting out the best information that I feel good about. I also want to acknowledge that some of you may have actually gone through this process, and it worked out great for you. If you feel that way, go to the bottom of this transcript, and comment. You can interact with our community about your experience. If it worked for you, I’m so glad it did. I don’t want to recommend it to anyone. And I’ll tell you the reasons why, but I also don’t want you to feel bad if you did it and it worked out great for you. Everybody is different. But reading the transcript of this podcast from years ago, which hasn’t even been in circulation, right? I took it out of circulation years ago. We talked about therapeutic disclosures. There are so many important points that I wanted to talk about. Now part of that episode was that we sent out a call for questions about disclosures at that time. And women wrote in their questions. So here’s a question that we received. One community member asked. Shouldn’t it be up to the wife to know or ask anything she needs to, even if it hurts her and causes her more pain? Is pain the enemy here? Isn’t unknowingly being in an unsafe situation far more dangerous? So that was the first question. ## THERAPISTS’ ASSUMPTIONS & MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES **Anne:** Now this therapist said she thought it was up to the partner to decide the level of detail they wanted in the disclosure. Which is fascinating to me that this therapist assumed this guy would somehow tell the truth. Or that she could get the level of information she actually wanted. He’s super manipulative. So putting a woman in this position where you’re giving her the impression that she can get information. If he is a liar who manipulates people, is super scary. The woman who asked the question says, isn’t unknowingly being in an unsafe situation, far more dangerous? Yes, a hundred percent, but the disclosure itself is an unsafe situation. I’m going to talk about what to do, instead of a disclosure at the end. So keep listening, because I will give you an alternative. This therapist said when she starts disclosures, and I’m going to do a quote here. She said, “For me, when I’m leading disclosures or doing training about disclosures, I encourage partners to start with the least amount of detail. You can ask more, you have a right to ask for more information, but let’s be slow and careful. That it’s not too much information for your brain. Some of this information will be traumatic for you.” Like, you know, it’s going to be really traumatic for you. And so maybe you shouldn’t find out that it is insane for a therapist to say this. I can’t believe I had this episode up for a while. ![Therapeutic Disclosure Process](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Therapeutic-Disclosure-Process.webp "Therapeutic Disclosure Process")## WHY HER SAFETY IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN HIS HEALING **Anne:** This therapist said, “So sometimes people get caught up in the emotion, and they want to know more and more. And that’s fine if they want to know, but I always ask them. Do you want to know? Is it going to be helpful in your healing?” Why would not knowing the truth be helpful in any situation? Like you can’t heal without the truth. Because if you don’t know what the truth is about the situation, you can’t make good choices. So why would anyone imply it’s okay? To not be aware of who your husband really is. Why would a therapist want to hide a man’s true character from his wife? Then I asked the therapist. What about safety issues, like isn’t that the most important thing? And she was like, oh, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. We need to think about safety, but that was not the first thing she said. And she didn’t even mention it. Instead she was like, Does she want to know the truth or does she want to heal? And when it came to safety, the only thing she mentioned was getting an STD test. She did not tell me [how to set boundaries](https://www.btr.org/how-to-set-boundaries/). And I thought. You’re not going to mention that[ lying is emotional abuse](/is-lying-emotional-abuse/ " lying is emotional abuse"), or the psychological abuse, or grooming? The fact that the thing you’re doing right now, her involvement with his therapy, his addiction recovery. Is counter-indicated when it comes to abuse. And you’re not talking about abuse. That’s dangerous. ## SAFETY CONCERNS ABOUT THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES **Anne:** So when I asked her this. This was her response. She said, “I work with addicts and their partners. When I work with an addict and help him prepare his disclosure. We’re looking at all the categories of behavior and addiction. He may not have behavior in all categories, but I want them to go through an inventory of every category. And then she starts talking about literally the details of the acting out, like specific ways he has behaved. And she starts delineating these things, and I’m like, what about abuse? She’s still not even saying this man is abusive and manipulative. How does all the different ways he had cheated, help her know that this is abuse? So then I asked her. What about other questions that aren’t related to this kind of behavior? Like lying. So I keep trying to go back to this, and she said that’s a hard one, because addicts have lied for so long. ![What is the Therapeutic Disclosure Process](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-Is-The-Therapeutic-Disclosure-Process.webp "What is the Therapeutic Disclosure Process")It’s hard for them to go through all the lies and correct all the lies in a disclosure. But isn’t that the point of a disclosure to find out the truth? You’re just going to hear me getting frustrated as I talk about this interview and the things she told me. Because it starts going around and around in circles. And I’m trying, but she doesn’t want to connect the dots. And so it got more frustrating as time went on. Then she says something that we absolutely do not recommend. And you’ll know why at the end. She says the addict prepares a disclosure document in marriage therapy for infidelity. ## HOW THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES GIVE A LIAR TIME TO CRAFT A STORY **Anne:** So basically, you’re giving this man a lot of time to write down all his manipulative reasons and craft this narrative any way he wants. To paint himself any way he chooses. Usually they paint themselves where they’re a victim in some way, they’re a victim because their dad didn’t love them enough. Or they’re a victim because their relationship with their mom is bad or they’re a victim because their dog died. So really, this disclosure is just putting her in the position to be lied to more. And the therapist said, okay, so she’s going to get this paper of this narrative that he concocted? And that’s when she gets to start asking him questions about it. But if he’s going to continue to lie. Do you see the problem? We’re going in circles. And this is a direct quote. ![What is a Therapeutic Disclosure](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-Is-A-Therapeutic-Disclosure.webp "What is a Therapeutic Disclosure")She said, “Sometimes the disclosure can be a time for lies. Sometimes there are so many lies. The addict will never be able to tell the truth about them all. And the question is, Is the addict trying to live, honestly? Has he lied to her to protect her? What? No, nope, that’s not the reason. And then she says this, and this is what I just talked about. “And usually the lying comes from a behavior much younger, and from another time. It doesn’t excuse it, but it does explain it. And then we can get to the root of it.” Like, no, he just lied because he chose to, and he’s continuing the lie because he chooses to. ## MANIPULATION CAN CONTINUE EVEN WITH A THERAPIST INVOLVED **Anne:** Then I say to this therapist, she doesn’t need to worry about why he’s lying. The lying in and of itself is dangerous, and she needs to be shielded from being lied to. All she needs to understand is the type of character he has. That this was emotional and psychological abuse, and coercion. And he’s continuing to do it. So I go back to the safety issue. Because like, you’re still not getting it. Like, are you going to get it in this interview? She says, “I think the disclosure is important, because one person has knowledge and information about the relationship that the other doesn’t.” ![What is Therapeutic Disclosure](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-Is-Therapeutic-Disclosure.webp "What is Therapeutic Disclosure")Absolutely, but do you think someone who is hiding something on purpose, who has for years. Who is now being forced to do it by will be like, okay, I’m going to do it now in marriage therapy for infidelity. Like, no, this is just an opportunity for more of it. So the therapist said, “This is a re-balancing of the information” and I’m like, no, it’s not. That is not what is happening. It is not a re-balancing of the information. If they’re going to continue to manipulate and lie through the whole process. So I never really got anywhere. We just talked in circles. And then here was the second question we had from our community. Why is the couple involved in a disclosure? Isn’t that couple therapy and couple therapy is counter-indicated when there’s abuse. And the therapist was like, I would never want clients to go to couples therapy when there is abuse involved. Uh, it’s all abuse. And you were working with the couple to do the disclosure. ## ISSUES WITH GROOMING DURING THE THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURE PROCESS **Anne:** Like can we put two and two together here? A therapeutic disclosure is not necessarily marriage therapy for infidelity, but she is involved. She is talking about what she needs and wants. She’s telling the therapist things that the therapist will tell him. There is some communication. This is definitely a couple endeavor. I don’t ever hear of addicts doing disclosures completely by themselves. Without their wife being involved. That might be the only scenario where this might work. If he went in completely by himself, went to therapy all by himself, his wife was not involved. But then wouldn’t he be like, I’m going to tell the truth. So we wouldn’t even need therapy. So I asked her specifically, aren’t you concerned about grooming that’s taking place during this disclosure process or during this time of therapy? ![What is a Full Therapeutic Disclosure](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-Is-A-Full-Therapeutic-Disclosure.webp "What is a Full Therapeutic Disclosure")That’s not considered “couple therapy,” but basically it is because the therapist is in communication with both people. Sometimes they’ll meet together. And she said, “I’ve never seen it from a grooming perspective.” There are a few individuals who learn a little bit. And then they use it against their partner. And at Betrayal Trauma Recovery we say that almost exclusively. So the fact that she thought it was just a few people and we’re like, um, this is on a like grand scale that this happens. So then I talk more about grooming and I talk about empathy scripts. ## MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY CAN TEACH A MANIPULATOR HOW TO SOUND EMPATHETIC **Anne:** So, what I’ve seen with men’s programs, even abuse programs. The therapist will be like, Okay, you don’t know how to be empathetic. So I’m going to help you learn what to say. But because they’re not genuinely empathetic, the therapist is like, well, I’m going to teach them. And they’ll just have to act like it until they become it. That sounds okay in theory. But in real practice, if they are not empathetic, they are not safe. If you’re in a room with someone who genuinely does not care about you at all. They’re not concerned about your emotional safety, your physical safety. They don’t care. They just want to exploit you and groom you. Them grooming you better with an empathy script is extremely dangerous. Because then they sound better. They can manipulate you more. So I brought this up, and the therapist said empathy scripts. Wow, I haven’t heard of that before. Then she said, “The way I look at it is if he comes home and uses the words I gave him or taught him, I always say, this is a good thing. Now I assume his intentions are true and his intentions are good. Because he’s trying new skills, and doesn’t have his own language yet.” So do you see the problem here? If he doesn’t have the ability to be empathetic, he’s mimicking it. He may use that and concentrate on how to use it to groom his wife. She assumes he’s trying to connect. But maybe he’s not. Maybe he’s like, okay, I’ve got to check all these boxes to continue to exploit the situation. ## WHY OBSERVING GENUINE CHANGE FROM A PLACE OF SAFETY MATTERS **Anne:** So then I asked her, how do you tell the difference in marriage therapy for infidelity between practicing a genuine new skill he wants, or is he using this to manipulate her? And she said, trust is built over time, which is true. And then she said, let’s sit back and watch. Which I also agree with. So why not just sit back and watch from the beginning? Why teach him all the empathy scripts? Why have him write out a big thing about his disclosure and all the lies? Is it just because you want them to spend a ton of money on therapy? Like you can sit back and watch without all that. In fact, instead of putting yourself in harm’s way—to be lied to—you can observe at a safe distance from the beginning, and not spend any money to know if he’s safe or not. All right, another question from a community member. She asked, Why do some therapists not include the state of the family finances in the full disclosure? This is a very important piece of information for a woman to have. The therapist says, “That is something that, I’ll say, unless a partner brings it up I will forget to ask that. It’s not on the top of my brain.” So if abuse is not on the top of the therapist’s brain, do you see how they’re not going to identify the abuse? And then the therapist says, I don’t know that it’s forgotten on purpose. I’m just not sure it’s on the top of our to-do list when we’re assessing for addiction and lies. So does this therapist think hiding money is not a lie? Because it is. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## The TRANSACTIONAL NATURE Of THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY **Anne:** Then I asked the therapist. Are there any abuse issues you have found helpful for women to ask about in the disclosure? And she said, no, she didn’t think so. And that she just saw it as a data exchange. Which confirms my theory about couple therapy or therapy in this instance. When it comes to abuse, he is basically facilitating his transactionship. That he’s like, I’m going to check all these boxes. I’m going to write out a big document where I can craft a narrative that paints me as a victim. And if I do these things, she’ll let me back in the house. And the therapist is like, yep. Check, check, check. Sounds right, using the empathy scripts. We’re good to go. But he actually is still that exploitative person. And he used that whole process as a transaction. So the fact that she’s like, this is just a data exchange. She even uses the word exchange, which was super alarming. All right. Another question from the community. The question from the community is, do you have any tips on how a spouse or former spouse who is not getting a disclosure moves forward? All she said basically was that it’s very hard when you don’t get the answers and don’t get the information you need. And that’s going to take a lot of time and coaching to come to grips with, she actually said coaching. Which I thought was interesting. But she’s not acknowledging that even with the disclosure process, you’re still not going to get all the information. All you’ll get is a bunch of checked boxes and a document that he’s carefully crafted. That’s it, that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s true. ## TIPS FOR BETRAYED WIVES IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY **Anne:** Prepping for a therapeutic disclosure in marriage therapy for infidelity sometimes takes six months, a year or two years of going to therapy once a week. And a victim often goes to therapy, maybe not once a week, but often to be part of this process. While he takes all this time to manufacture the narrative. That seems absolutely dangerous. And a waste of time and money. I do have some tips about it, and I will share them with you now. I want you to think about what you know, so rather than going with your abuser to addiction therapy. Take one hour. Get out a pen and paper. And sit down at your kitchen table. And list all the things that you know. So for me, it would have been, I know he leaves the house at 10:00 PM, and I don’t know where he goes. And he gets home at like one in the morning or two in the morning. And I don’t know where he’s been. I’ve never been able to get a straight answer, I know that. I know that he screams in my face. And I know he’s punched a few walls. I know that he doesn’t make sense. I know that he has lied to me about this, this, this, and this. So write all the things that you know. I’m not sure why they would take two years to force a known pathological liar to tell the truth. When they could just say, you already know. Let’s focus on what you know. ## ISSUES WITH POLYGRAPHS **Anne:** Now once you have everything you know written down. Compare that to what abuse is, and then you’ll answer, is he abusive? Observe over time to see what his character is. And that’s all you need to know. When you know who he is, because you can see him clearly. Then you’ll feel confident in your choices. But if you can’t see him clearly, it’s hard to be confident about your choices. Women who are going through the therapeutic disclosure process in marriage therapy for infidelity are having a hard time because they’re still exposed to all that manipulation. Here’s the last question from our community members. She asked how accurate are lie detector tests? There are many addicts who won’t do them because they say they’re not accurate. Do you use them in your practice? If so, can you debunk misunderstandings about their accuracy and effectiveness in re-establishing trust in relationships? So I know a lot of women whose husbands have done disclosures and had polygraphs. And they’ve said they were helpful. So if they have been helpful to you, I’m glad they worked for you. This therapist said, she likes polygraphs and lie detectors. So she uses them in her practice. She claims they have an 80% accuracy rate. And then she said in my world, that’s better than not knowing. And I’m like, if it’s only 80% accuracy, you still don’t know. So it’s not better than not knowing, because it’s the exact same thing. Again, the reason why I don’t like polygraphs is still, the focus is on trying to get him to tell you something. Rather than having confidence in yourself and what you already know. ## RELYING ON PERSONAL OBSERVATIONS INSTEAD OF THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES **Anne:** Anytime we’re trying to protect ourselves from his emotional abuse by trying to get something from him. Or having someone else get it through his brain, like clergy or a marriage therapy for infidelity couple therapist or an addiction recovery specialist. That is how the abuser will manipulate you. The thing about polygraphs that makes me nervous is they might tell the truth about the questions that the polygraph examiner is asking. But there’s so much that we wouldn’t know. I’m a woman of faith. If you’re not, you’re welcome here. But just for my own faith perspective. I don’t think there is any human earthly ability to genuinely detect if someone is lying, other than through observing them. Also I don’t think there’s a way to force them to tell the truth. I think God created this earthly life with that scenario, because it’s part of our earthly test. I think the only person who knows the truth is God. And so, I would prefer to turn to God to pray to feel the spirit, and then observe from a safe distance to know. That’s a safer situation. Because it focuses on what you know, and what God is telling you. Rather than rely on anything the abuser is saying, or someone he is manipulating, like a therapist or clergy is saying. This therapist, this is a direct quote. She says, “The thing about the polygraph, I really want to make sure folks understand, is that it’s not a statement of truth.” I’m reading this word for word. She said, “It’s not a statement of truth. It’s what he says is true.” And then she gives a confusing example that didn’t make any sense. I couldn’t make heads or tails of it. ## THERAPIST’S VIEWS ON POLYGRAPHS **Anne:** And then she says this, “The polygraph is only checking what he thinks to be true. It doesn’t check his memory. It doesn’t check if he’s forgetting, it doesn’t check if his memory is wrong. So that’s an important piece that partners need to know before they go in. So, if he says this is everything and passes the polygraph, there are so many times when by virtue of exploring, investigating, or researching the data. She’s referring to all the months he spends crafting his narrative about. Apparently, “all the addiction acting out.” Okay, quoting her again now. “So he goes into a polygraph and passes. And then the next night, the victim will say, wait, what about this? And the addict will say, oh, I forgot about that.” So she is saying I use polygraphs, but a lot of the time. The truth isn’t included. And then she says this. “This is not them manipulating. This is them remembering one more thing.” So they always have some excuse, apparently according to a C-SAT to not tell the truth, I guess. That just sounds like chaos and pain. So then I tell her a few examples of women who came to Betrayal Trauma Recovery after marriage therapy for infidelity and told us their disclosure horror stories. One of them, a man went in to do a polygraph and he passed. But the things that he said were true, she knew were not true. And the therapist said, well, he passed the polygraph, so he’s great. I don’t know why you don’t believe him. It was just a nightmare for her. ## THE CHAOS INCOMPLETE DISCLOSURES CREATE IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY **Anne:** And I talked about that, and the therapist said, “Sometimes the guy is not yet out of his layers of denial enough that he’s seeing the full picture.” I think it’s more that he’s manipulating on purpose. That he’s good at lying and manipulating. And then she said, “but any disclosure is better than none.” Basically saying that even if it’s all abuse and a mess, and he’s saying certain truths in a tactical fashion to manipulate the whole situation. That’s better than not being abused. I disagree. I don’t think any disclosure is better than none. because the disclosure in and of itself is just abuse the whole time. No disclosure is better than any disclosure at all. So then in the end I asked her, is there anything else you want to share about disclosures? And she says, “I think your community is amazing and that you’re doing a great job.” That’s nice of her to say that, even though now I’m like throwing her under the bus. And the reason why I didn’t want to do her voice is because I have no intention of harming anyone’s reputation, but I want to educate you about the dangers of disclosures. What she wanted to say at the end was that she knows that women in our situation want to know the truth. They want to know exactly what happened. And then she said, and sometimes we need to break the disclosure into two pieces. Get the safety items taken care of immediately. ## FINAL THOUGHTS ON MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY **Anne:** Uh, that’s like 10 minutes after she said you have to observe and wait to know if they’re safe. You can’t get any safety items taken care of immediately. That’s not how safety works. You have to observe from a safe distance for a long time to see what their actions are. So I don’t even know what she means when she says get the safety items taken care of immediately. That’s just not a thing. She’s not only contradicting herself, she’s also showing that she doesn’t understand how safety works. And then she says, if they can wait a little longer, it will take a lot of time. And if you’re more patient, it’s going to get better. So she assumes you can create safety immediately. Then you need to take a lot of time to see if he’s safe, almost in the same breath. That doesn’t make sense to me. All right now, I’m going to talk about what you should do, instead of asking for a therapeutic disclosure. I know that in your desire to have a therapeutic disclosure, couple therapy or get clergy to help him. You are resisting the abuse. You’re doing everything right. You’re trying to stop this, because you want a safe place for your family. So you’re doing amazing. You’re doing everything you’re supposed to do. This is not your fault, and this is not your problem. This is the problem of addiction therapists who don’t know anything about abuse, who are putting women in harm’s way. That has nothing to do with you. ## EDUCATING YOURSELF ABOUT ABUSE **Anne:** Instead of doing a therapeutic disclosure in marriage therapy for infidelity, the number one thing is to educate yourself about abuse, so that you can start seeing the truth of your situation. You might find that he’s not as abusive as you thought. You might find out that he’s really abusive. But getting educated about abuse will help. Number two, determine your husband’s true character from your own observations. That’s why I created [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). It takes you through step-by-step how to observe from a safe distance. You could still be in your home. This doesn’t necessarily mean you have to move out to observe from a safe distance. It gives you strategies to do this, whether you’re in the home or even if you’re divorced, they work no matter what. So that you determine if he has a safe character from what you know, and you don’t have to rely on him for any information whatsoever. ## GETTING THE RIGHT SUPPORT **Anne:** And then the third is to get the right support from people who understand emotional abuse and betrayal trauma. That could be a group at your local domestic violence shelter. It could be a therapist who understands abuse dynamics, who does not know your husband. Who will not talk to your husband. Who’s not going to have anything to do with him. It could be our online [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/). **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [How to Listen to a Podcast and Stay Undiscovered](https://www.btr.org/how-do-you-listen-to-a-podcast/) **Published:** September 8, 2026 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Scared your husband will find out you're getting help? Here's how to listen to a podcast privately and figure out the truth. **Content:** “How do you listen to a podcast and stay undiscovered?” might seem like an odd question to most people, especially at a time when technology makes access to media so easy. But for women who are in relationships with emotionally abusive men, the answer to that question is often the key to finding the help they need without risking exposure, especially if they share devices, or he keeps track of their browsing history. In this article we’ll cover the following: - [The basics about podcasts](#what-is-a-podcast) - [How to listen podcasts safely and privately](#search-in-incognito-mode) - [Recognizing controlling dynamics in relationships](#coercive-control) - [How to avoid getting pulled back into his chaos](#boundaries) - [Protecting yourself when systems fail](#protective-orders) Let’s get started. ## WHAT *IS* A PODCAST, EXACTLY? A podcast is typically a short, recorded discussion or interview about a specific topic of interest by a host and guest. For Example: The *Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast* is a discussion for women who have been betrayed by their husbands. Our episodes are released weekly, they’re short (usually around 30 minutes), and you can listened on a phone, tablet, computer, or smart speaker anytime that is best for you. ## HOW TO LISTEN TO A PODCAST – IN 3 SIMPLE STEPS ### STEP 1: FIND A PODCAST APP ON A SMARTPHONE Most smartphones already have podcast apps installed for you. **For iPhone users**: - Look for and open the **[Apple Podcasts](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/betrayal-trauma-recovery/id1118969643)** app - OR download[ **Spotify**](https://open.spotify.com/show/54IhlM7JEJXK3geocKn2hG?si=4010105296114e58) for free from the App Store **For Android users**: - Download **[Spotify](https://open.spotify.com/show/54IhlM7JEJXK3geocKn2hG?si=4010105296114e58)** or [**YouTube Music**](https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLMPxpzG-muA0YNxpMDCscCape5HZRASC-) from the Play Store These apps are free and they don’t require you to sign up for anything to start listening. ### STEP 2: SEARCH FOR THE PODCAST YOU WANT TO LISTEN TO Open your app and search for: **“Betrayal Trauma Recovery”** You’ll see our podcast cover (with Anne Blythe’s name on it). Tap on the show and then tap **“Follow”** (or “Subscribe” depending on which app you’re using). ![How to Listen to a Podcast for Women](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-to-Listen-to-a-Podcast-for-Women-1024x1024.webp "How to Listen to a Podcast for Women")### STEP 3: HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST BY STREAMING OR DOWNLOADING EPISODES You can stream episodes instantly (using data or when connected to Wi-Fi) OR If you want to save an episode to listen to later, tap the **download icon** (a little arrow pointing down) Once you’re done listening, you can delete it from the app, so it doesn’t show up in your history. ## 5 WAYS, HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST WITHOUT YOUR HUSBAND FINDING OUT Here are a few extra tips for women concerned about privacy and safety: 1. Use air pods or headphones to listen while doing chores, running errands, or on lunch breaks. 2. Find btr.org/podcast in an **Incognito** or **Private** browser window, so nothing gets saved to your search history. 3. Manually delete your listening history. Most podcast apps allow you to delete your playback or download history manually. 4. Create a separate or hidden folder on your device for the podcast app. 5. Use alone time or breaks to listen. Like a “walk to the mailbox” or “cleaning the bathroom” or folding the laundry, any time alone where you can press play and listen. Even 10 minutes can calm your nervous system and help you feel seen. This *is* emotional self-care. ## LEAVING A REVIEW HELPS MORE WOMEN FIND HELP If *Betrayal Trauma Recovery* has helped you feel less alone, and it’s safe to do so, consider leaving a short review. It helps women find the support they desperately need. Just open the app, go to the podcast’s main page, scroll down, and tap “Write a Review.” ## THE PODCAST THAT COULD SAVE YOUR SANITY If you’re wondering what’s *really* going on in your marriage… Or you’ve been blamed for your trauma… If you’ve spent hundreds (or thousands) on therapy that only made things worse… Or your wondering [how to recover after infidelity](/how-to-recover-after-infidelity/)… Start here: 🎧 [**Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast**](/podcast/) 🎧 It’s for women only. It’s free. And it just might be the first step toward clarity and peace. ### BONUS: NEED A QUICK PODCAST RECOMMENDATION? Try these listener favorites: - **[The Best Betrayal Meditation To Heal From Infidelity](https://www.btr.org/clarity/)** - **[My Husband Won’t Stop Lying To Me – Angel’s Story](/husband-wont-stop-lying/)** - **[3 Ways Your Husband May Be Gaslighting You with Dr. Robin Stern](/husband-gaslighting/)** You can find all episodes at btr.org/podcast. ## TRANSCRIPT: HOW TO LISTEN TO A PODCAST AND STAY UNDISCOVERED **Anne:** We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’ll talk about how do you listen to a podcast and stay undiscovered as you seek help. We’re gonna call her Elinor after Elinor Dashwood from Sense and Sensibility. Welcome Elinor. **Elinor:** Hey, thanks so much for having me. I’m excited to be here. I found BTR on Instagram. And it really resonated with me. At that time. I was still with my husband. And I would listen to your podcast in my car when I was alone, and it helped me gain clarity about my situation. And start to put some words to the things I didn’t recognize I was experiencing. **Anne:** How long had you been married when you found BTR? **Elinor:** 21 years, so a long time. **Anne:** Yeah, and how many children do you have? **Elinor:** I have three children with him. **Anne:** Can you talk about the progression of what you thought was wrong, all the ways you tried to solve it or approach it before you found [Betrayal Trauma Recovery and our support group](/group/)? **Elinor:** So I guess I always knew he was controlling and wanted things a certain way. Before the pandemic, I started becoming more afraid of him. But things were worse and worse. I thought when the pandemic hit, our marriage was going to get better, because there we were all at home and we were gonna have all this time together, and I thought that would improve it. ## THINGS ESCALATED RAPIDLY **Elinor:** Things were really calm at first, but then escalated rapidly within the next few months. Before that, I hadn’t said a word to anybody. I had normalized it. So all kinds of horrific things were just a Tuesday for me. He had told me that we should keep any of our disagreements or problems just between us, and not even tell like our parents or anyone. He’s like, we just need to work this out together. That’s how you solve things. So that really silenced me from telling anyone. During the pandemic, I finally told someone, and they told me that I should speak to my bishop at that time. I was going to, and hadn’t yet, and ended up leaving for the first time. Just fleeing the house with my children, and my littlest didn’t even have her shoes on, and stayed with friends. At that point, I knew something was really wrong, but I didn’t understand. I hadn’t looked up any of this stuff. I hadn’t even searched something basic like, how do you listen to a podcast privately, because I didn’t know I was in an abusive situation. It happened that one of the counselors in my bishopric was a counselor. He talked to me about how I needed to set boundaries with my husband. I was like, oh, yes, that’s going to fix it. I’m going to set boundaries. I was so excited and I ended up coming back, because I was worried that I had ruined my marriage by leaving. And I was so afraid I’d done the wrong thing. I don’t know how to describe it, but I think people in such relationships understand. I felt like I had to be with him. ## HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST: SETTING FIRM BOUNDARIES **Elinor:** Now I realize because he had so belittled me and my opinion of myself, that I needed him to believe that I was worth something, to feel like I was worth something. **Anne:** That counselor in the Bishopric after that first time you had fled. Did he say, like “You can go back as long as you set boundaries”? Can you talk more about that? **Elinor:** He was like, if you want to work things out, you’ll have to set very firm boundaries. I had gone back. Right away, the bishop reached out to me. I started telling him all about what was going on, and he immediately called it out as abuse. Which I understand now from a lot of other people’s experiences is rare. And I’m really grateful. Because I didn’t wanna believe myself. Because if it was abuse, I had to change my whole life. **Anne:** You don’t have to change, but you may need to alter your situation. **Elinor:** Yes, drastically. **Anne:** Which is daunting. **Elinor:** I’d met him right after my 18th birthday. He was my first serious relationship and I didn’t have a lot to compare that relationship to, which now I tell my children, date a lot. Date that person for a long time before you get engaged to them. We dated for a few weeks, and he was quite a bit older than I was. He was seven years older, and he seemed so confident and charismatic. I thought this was like true love, and he was wonderful. I see now, he was abusive from the get go, but I didn’t recognize the red flags when they were glaring in my face. ## MY FRIENDS AND FAMILY DIDN’T LIKE HIM **Anne:** Yeah, how did he present to other people? Did they think he was a good guy? **Elinor:** I thought they did at first. But I can say that now that I’m out on this side and have talked to a couple of friends, they did not like him. My parents did not like him. My dad said he is a very proud man, which was strong verbiage from my dad, who’s a very gentle soul. **Anne:** That’s as intense as your dad would get. I think when someone’s married to someone, they don’t wanna throw someone’s spouse under the bus. ‘Cause it’s like, how is that going to help her to think her husband’s a jerk? And I’m like, it would help her. I promise it would help her. They also don’t wanna alienate her. Because they think if you say your husband is a jerk, that you’ll be like, well, then I’m not gonna talk to you. And so it’s a really hard place to be for an outsider. To wanna support your marriage, but then also want to support you. It’s really hard to figure that out. For women in situations like yours finding out how do you listen to a podcast safely and getting the right information is vital. How did you feel finding out that other people didn’t like him? **Elinor:** In some ways I wish they had told me, but I see for myself that I wouldn’t have believed them at the time. I was so excited about my new husband, and I thought everything was so wonderful. If they had told me he was a bad guy, I would not have listened, and I would’ve been like, something’s wrong with them. They think so badly of him. ## THE CONSTANT HAMSTER WHEEL OF PROVING MYSELF **Anne:** They’re so judgmental. Something like that, maybe. Especially if he’s set that up. A lot of abusers like this, they’ll say something like, people don’t understand me. Or, people are so judgmental. They see that I do this thing, and they assume I’m a jerk, but I’m a good guy. They set it up like this on purpose. We don’t know that, because they’re lying. And if anybody says that, then you’re like, oh yeah, he warned me that people were gonna say this. **Elinor:** Yes, he said he’d had other relationships before, and he felt like trust was a big deal. And right away he was like, it’s important to me that you trust me implicitly. And now I know trust is to be earned. But when I was so young, I just thought, oh, I need to show him how I trust him. And that became several decades of me trying to prove that I trusted him. I think some hallmarks of the marriage were, kindness must be earned. Which is absolutely wrong, he was always carroting things out. If you do this and this, then I’ll do this. I felt like I was on this constant hamster wheel of proving myself, proving I loved him. He would often use the term, if you love me. If, that is insidious if. **Anne:** One of the message strategies in the [Betrayal Trauma Workshop](https://www.btr.org/clarity/) Is to agree. I love it in this scenario, because of course, he’s gonna say, “you don’t love me. If you love me, you would…” They do that to manipulate us, but we don’t realize that. ## HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST WHEN COUPLE THERAPY ISN’T AN OPTION **Anne:** So if he says, “You don’t love me.” When we agree and say, “That’s a good point. I hadn’t thought about that. Let me think about that for a little while. Thanks for bringing that up.” It changes the whole dynamic. Because then it’s hard for them to manipulate you. When you don’t respect me. “I don’t? Oh, I might not.” **Elinor:** It flips the tables, doesn’t it? **Anne:** We respect them with our actions, because we’re deferring to them and making sure dinner’s ready. When he says, “You don’t respect me,” we’re thinking, “of course I do. I clean up the house. I tell people nice things about you.” Because of all your actions, you respect him, but in your mind, something’s wrong. In our minds, we’re suspicious. They know how to use that Catch 22 against us. And that’s why safe, private access to information matters so much. Some women are still at the stage of quietly asking, “how do you listen to a podcast**”** because they need help, but they also need to stay undiscovered. Did you guys ever try couple therapy? **Elinor:** No, I knew inside my head that it would not work for us. He had told me, “The only way I would ever go to couple therapy with you would be for the couple therapist to tell me that I should divorce you.” **Anne:** Wow, so he didn’t wanna go to couple therapy. The way he manipulated you to not go, which actually worked in your favor, you just didn’t know that. ‘Cause the couple therapy would’ve been worse. But was to say, we’re going to couple therapy, and the couple therapist will tell me to divorce you. And that was his way to manipulate you not to go to couple therapy. **Elinor:** Uh-huh. ## DISCOVERING SIGNS OF ADDICTION **Anne:** Wow, I have never heard that one before, by the way. That’s a new one. Were you aware of pornography use, affairs? **Elinor:** When I finally told someone about his behavior, they were like, “Oh, have you asked is pornography an issue?” So he’s staying up super late. His door’s always closed. He’s upset, all the classic hallmarks. And I was like, oh, of course he’s not. But I’ll ask him just in case. **Anne:** Whenever someone says, “Did you talk to him about?” I’m like, they’re going to lie. So don’t ever tell someone, did you ask him about pornography? That’s never gonna help. But you didn’t know that at the time. So you asked him? **Elinor:** He’s like, “Oh yeah, I did look at pornography. Sometimes I do that, but it’s not a big deal.” And I was like, “Well, when did you start doing that? Has it been going on during our marriage?” It sounded like from his description, the entire marriage. And then I was starting to be worried, “So maybe is a portion of our marriage you didn’t use pornography? Is there maybe a gap somewhere that I could base the behavior with the behavior without?” He mentioned one 18 month gap in the entire 20 something years of marriage where he hadn’t used. And I was like, “That sounds like an addiction.” And he was like, “Oh no, it’s not addiction. I could quit anytime.” ## HE WAS PROUD THAT HE KEPT ME FROM SEEING THE TRUTH **Elinor:** And then I knew it was. I’m like you could quit anytime, right? So why haven’t you? I didn’t ask him that. At that point. I was like, oh wow, we’ve got a deep addiction here. I didn’t see anything he used. He was proud that I never saw anything. I remember asking him, ” Where are you looking at these things? Like where are you finding them?” And he was like, “You’ll never find out.” He had that little side smirk smile. And I never did, but that just sickened my soul. When he gave that answer, he was proud of it. And he was not sorry. He was not in any way taking any responsibility for its effect on anyone else. And he never did. I realized I needed to know how do you listen to a podcast undiscovered, for my emotional safety. I thought maybe if we solved the “pornography” problem, our relationship would improve. Now I have something to point at, oh, it’s this. That’s what the problem is. And as I talked to my bishop about it, I remember sitting in his office just shaking and shaking. That shook my whole world, ’cause I believed he was faithful to me. I consider pornography deeply unfaithful. **Anne:** My book is coming out soon, explaining why he was lying all the time to everyone and proud of it. And probably because he was such a liar, he was doing other things that you didn’t find out about either. That you may find out later. ## HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST: WHEN HE PULLS YOU BACK IN **Anne:** Are you divorced now? **Elinor:** I’m still in process. Yeah, it’s gonna be long and ugly. **Anne:** Those of us who have been divorced for a long time. It’s almost been 10 years for me right now. We find out stuff like years later, it’s pretty crazy. You’re like, what? I thought this was what was happening, and then you find out somehow that it was something different. It’s like the truth finds you. I bet you’ll find out a lot more as things progress. When you know how do you listen to a podcast for help. **Elinor:** I read it takes an average of seven times to leave an abusive relationship, and how there’s just gravity that sucks you back in the hoovering, right? But when I read about that, I thought it would never be me. I wouldn’t go and come back and go and come back, but oh my goodness, it was me and the “hopium” that things were going to change, that it was going to get better. It really pulled me back. The first time I left, I was gone for three days and then, okay, so this is terrifying. He hunted me down and found us in a different town, which is super creepy. I didn’t immediately go back. And he was like, I am so sorry. Which is a big deal, because the rest of my marriage, he was never sorry, never. Things happened, he would make me apologize for it. I would beg, there would be silent treatments. I would have to do physical punishments to make up for it, and we never talked about it. So they just got shoved in the back of my mind, all the horrible things that happened. ## IT WAS BETTER FOR TWO WEEKS **Elinor:** There was no acknowledgment. When I left the first time, he was down on his knees when he found me and said, “Oh my goodness, I’m so sorry.” I was like, oh, wow, he finally admits he’s been so angry and so crazy, and life has been horrendous, and the children are afraid, and I am afraid. And he was like, everything’s gonna be so much better. He of course promised the whole world, I believed him. I went back the next day after talking to my clergy and trying to set some boundaries. And the next two weeks were amazing. He was so great. I was like, wow, this has changed. Our marriage is gonna be so much better. And it was better for two weeks. And then it was worse than ever. These stories you read about where people say, “Oh, if you go back, it’s gonna be worse.” I can 100% testify if you leave and come back, it’s going to be worse. I left and went back three times, and it was definitely horribly worse each time. And each time there was a section of time where he was so much nicer for a little while, and then he would make me pay for it later. It was just sickeningly awful. I kept my bag packed, because my friend had warned me sometimes this behavior doesn’t keep. Sometimes they don’t change. They just want you to believe they’re gonna change. Oh my goodness. It didn’t keep, and I started not being able to sleep, not being able to eat. ## I LEFT AGAIN, BUT MISSED HIM AND WANTED TO GO BACK **Elinor:** Probably the knowledge of just finding out my husband has been using pornography for 20 years, like the sickening awareness that my husband was betraying me for so long. Then I left again, because his behavior was horrifying, and he actively tried to turn the children against me. I flew home to my parents. That time when I left, my bishop’s wife actually came and helped us leave. We escaped down the basement door during a rainstorm. It was pretty traumatic, especially for the children. I needed help. I learned how do you listen to a podcast and stay undiscovered, for our safety. After learning more I thought, well, I’ll never come back. I stayed with my family and missed him. Then I started second guessing myself on everything. I thought, oh, I’ve just misunderstood things. He always told me I misunderstood things and that I was stupid. Lots of things don’t make sense to me because of the way I am. That’s what he would say. Only I know that’s not so now, but I wanted to go back. At that point my oldest child would not come back with me. She was like, Mom, don’t go back to him. And I was like, but we need to keep our family together. And she sat in the bathroom and cried for two hours and wouldn’t come out. I should have learned more from that. But I thought, “well, we’re gonna make this so much better.” But no, she never did come back. She was 18 and she just lived on her own after that. Which must have been so incredibly hard, and my heart breaks for her. She knew she would write me, and say, “Mom, when you’re ready, come be with me.” ## HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST: WHEN HE’S STILL ABUSIVE **Anne:** I think what was happening was all the abuse was still in your head. And you didn’t know that it wasn’t your own thoughts, it was all his abuse, and he was still abusing you. **Elinor:** Yes. **Anne:** Even though you were away from him. People don’t understand that. You’re still being abused. So it takes a while for the abuse to drain out of your head, and you have to be away from it in order for that to happen. It wasn’t that you weren’t ready. You hadn’t learned to separate that out. You were in the early stages of learning safety steps like, how do you listen to a podcast and find help online. And the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop](https://www.btr.org/clarity/), has a way to write down what your thoughts are, and then to realize they’re actually not your thoughts. They’re the abuser’s thoughts. That’s helpful for victims. This story haunts me. And the way I came up with some of these workshop strategies comes from this. A woman was like, I will separate from my husband. I feel right about it. She’d prayed about it a ton. She could see all the abuse. She was like, check, check, check. He’s abusive. And she went to the temple, and she came out and said, the spirit told me I needed to stay with him. **Elinor:** Oh my gosh. **Anne:** She felt so strongly about it. And I was like, who am I to say that’s not the spirit? But I started wondering, why are women thinking that the spirit tells them to stay in proximity to evil? And then, over time, I realized it’s because the abuser’s abuse is so tangled up in their head that everything feels bad. ## THE THOUGHT OF LEAVING FEELS TERRIBLE **Anne:** So when they think about leaving him, it feels really bad, and that doesn’t feel like the spirit. It feels like something else. So you’re like, every time I think about leaving, I feel terrible. And so those who want to follow the spirit and the spirit is peace. The spirit is calm. When we think about leaving, it doesn’t feel peaceful. It doesn’t feel calm. And nobody warns you about that. They’re like, follow the spirit. And you’re like, “Okay, well the spirit is not telling me to leave. ‘Cause every time I think about leaving, my body’s like, no, that’s not right.” And your alarm system is going off. Really what’s happening is your alarm system is going off. It’s telling you danger, danger, danger. But he hijacked it long ago. And so he’s twisted your own internal warning system to tell you to move closer to him rather than away. So you’re just trying to do what the “spirit” is telling you to do, in that moment. So to help explain it to a woman when she’s in that, is what the [Betrayal Trauma Workshop](https://www.btr.org/clarity/) is about. Something as simple as learning how do you listen to a podcast safely, can lead to finding help. Yeah, so that she can see the difference between his lies and her actual warning system and what it’s been warning her about. Because they’re so good at manipulating us that they know how to use even our own survival mechanisms against us. **Elinor:** That is so true, that feels really true to me. ## IT FELT WRONG TO BREAK UP OUR MARRIAGE **Anne:** Yeah, so you weren’t doing anything wrong. You just didn’t know what you didn’t know, and you didn’t wanna go against what you thought in the moment was the truth. **Elinor:** Yeah, definitely, it felt wrong to break up our marriage. I still hadn’t fully admitted to myself how deeply abusive he was. And I kept thinking, oh, we’re gonna make this better. I was so beaten down about every aspect of myself because of all the things he said and did. That I didn’t know who I would be without him. And in my mind, believed that without him, I was lost and worthless. Which obviously is not true. But I felt that way at the time. So I went back and then I stayed there with him for the next year and a half. And my bishop kept checking in on me. People would check in on me, like people knew it wasn’t good, and they were trying to help me, but I wouldn’t go. ‘Cause I’m like, this is my marriage. I’m going to save it somehow. I studied all sorts of psychology things, like I wondered what sort of disorder he might have. Went down all the rabbit holes and had to stop. I left again the third time with my parents’ help, rented a house and lived separately. and stayed separate from him for a couple of months. I actually had a protective order for a few weeks, trying to keep us separate and safe. He was doing all sorts of things, psychologically and spiritually. Just on every single level of abuse. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## THE MOMENT I REALIZED HOW BAD IT REALLY WAS **Elinor:** I had started keeping a journal for my own sanity about what was happening. And I’m glad I did, because one of the things I told myself was, oh, he’s not doing these things very often. But when I started writing it down, I realized he was grabbing me by the throat every two weeks. Every two weeks he would do that, and he had groomed me for this. He just groomed me probably on every level. Learning how do you listen to a podcast and finding yours was so helpful. But with this whole throat grabbing, he would call it holding my throat. Obviously, this is choking, right? But that’s what I would call it. He holds my throat. And when I would tell people about it, they would just be horrified. But to me it was another Tuesday. When he would grab my throat, he would make me say things and do things. And obviously when someone is holding your throat, you just do what they say. And he would make me repeat things. He would say, “Tell me that I own you.” and I would have to repeat these horrible things. And before I left the third time, it was becoming so overt. He was like, “Tell me about how stupid you are. How stupid are you? Go ahead, humble yourself. Say it out loud.” And I would mumble out the words, because it sickened me. It felt so wrong. And I would say, ‘I’m stupid.” He would say, “Go on, say it a little louder. I couldn’t hear you.” And I would say, “I’m stupid.” He was like, “Go on, say it like you mean it.” I would find myself repeating these horrible things over and over and over again. ## HOW TO LISTEN TO A PODCAST AND PROTECT YOURSELF **Elinor:** The psychological abuse is so disturbing. Then right before I left with that protective order, I woke up one night and he was holding me by the throat while I was sleeping. It was hard to breathe, and I just laid there, stock still. I think if anyone else had been in this situation. They would be screaming and like, oh, let go of me, stop it and you have this reaction. But I had been in this so long, I knew I must hold very still. I must not say a word. And then hopefully he will let go, because I knew if I tried to fight against it, it would get worse. **Anne:** I disagree with you, anyone who’s been through what you had been through would’ve stayed still too. **Elinor:** Okay. **Anne:** A hundred percent. What you did sounds totally normal under the circumstances. We know about abuse, and share it so others can learn. **Elinor:** That’s self preservation. **Anne:** Yes. **Elinor:** A lot of the things that I did sound so wackadoo to me now, like they just sound like nonsense. But I appreciate that you understand that’s exactly what you have to do in those circumstances. Just to stay safe. **Anne:** Yeah, to survive. **Elinor:** Yeah, my children sometimes talk about how people say, “Oh, you should have done this and you should have done that.” And they’re like, “Sometimes you say it too, Mom, now that we’re out. Like, if I was there again, I would’ve done this, or I wouldn’t have done that.” And they said, “No, we never would’ve, because we all knew it was going to get worse. We all felt that undercurrent of like he was holding back.” ## I HADN’T RECOGNIZED PHYSICAL ABUSE **Anne:** That is the manipulation. I think people don’t understand that is the abuse. That you know instinctively that you can’t do that or you’re going to be very injured. Anybody would do that. I look back at what I did and think, what is wrong with me? I would do the opposite. He’d be physically intimidating, like he was gonna punch me in the face, and in my mind I’d be like, let’s see if I could make him punch me in the face. And so I’d push through it. I thought, if he punched me, I would know. **Elinor:** Yeah. **Anne:** So I’m pushing through, and he never punched me in the face. So then I was confused. Wait, I guess he’s not abusive. That’s the hard part about it. He could punch you in the face. He could not punch you in the face. Either way, it’s abuse. **Elinor:** That was one of the things I recognized from your podcast. When I learned how do you listen to a podcast safely, different kinds of things surfaced that I hadn’t recognized were physical abuse. Obviously the throat holding, but like there was a ton of sexual abuse and coercion that I had not put in the physical abuse box. I think many people do this. I categorized, punching and hitting, and like, oh, he pushed me down the steps. That would be physical abuse. But there were so many other things he did that were physical abuse that I learned from listening to you and the people on your podcast. That I was like, oh he’s doing all these things and more. He is physically abusive. ## HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST FOR SAFETY WHEN SYSTEMS FAIL **Elinor:** Like it’s not when he’s gonna be physically abusive. He is now, and he doesn’t always need to get to the next point for me to step in line with what he wants. He just does as much as he needs to, to control me. Which was very effective. **Anne:** Yeah, it’s scary. **Elinor:** Yeah, I feel really blessed that we are on this side of it now. I’m glad I know, I’m glad I do not have the desire to ever go back. The third time I left with a protective order. Both times my protective orders failed. I’d have ’em for a couple weeks, and then I would go for the full protective order, and I could not give enough evidence to prove what had happened to me in the eyes of law. And that was so frustrating and demoralizing for me, because all these physically abusive and terribly scary things were happening. But during a six hour court hearing. There just wasn’t enough evidence, the judge said, to bring a protective order against him. And of course, he was so good at presenting himself. He came in not looking like the “abuser”. He presents like a first class citizen, well educated, active in his church and a pillar to the community. And it was so believable that the judge was like, well, he seems like a great guy, and you seem like a great person, and you guys just need to work it out. And that was so heartbreaking for me to tell my story in court in front of other people and policemen, and just such a terrifying environment. Your podcast and learning how do you listen to a podcast would have helped me. ## HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST FOR SUPPORT WHEN YOU AREN’T BELIEVED **Anne:** And have them not believe you. Learning how do you listen to a podcast and finding ours for support could have helped prepare you. **Elinor:** Not believe me. **Anne:** That is a nightmare. **Elinor:** Yes, and to do that twice and still not be believed. I was grateful at the end of the first court hearing, not joking, six hours. There was a recess for lunch in the middle, it went on so long. The lawyer had told me they averaged 10 to 20 minutes, and I sat through several, and that is how they average six hours. At the end, after the judge dismissed it, and I am just in tears. This lady had to sit through all my court, came up to me, and she was like, I wanna tell you something. I believe you.” That meant the world to me to have her believe me. Because at that point, it’s hard enough to believe myself. It’s hard enough to get up there on the stand and be cross examined, but to have the judge throw it out. The second one was three hours. I knew it would be long. **Anne:** Was it the same judge? **Elinor:** Different judge, different state. **Anne:** What? **Elinor:** He presents so well. He is so believable, so charismatic, and he knows how to present himself as this wonderful guy. **Anne:** Also, his abuse of you doesn’t leave marks. I mean, he might, “hold your throat”, but it didn’t leave a bruise. **Elinor:** ‘Cause he knew when to stop. everything was behind closed doors. There was never a mark, like you said, there was nothing to go to show someone. ## FLEEING THE HOUSE FOR THE LAST TIME **Elinor:** I remember my daughter at one point telling me, “Mom, I just wish he would hit you. I don’t want you to be hit.” But she was like, “What can we say that he’s doing? If he hit you, we could say he hit you, but everything else he does is right at the edge.” She was like, “I wanna call the police, but I don’t know what I would say when they got here.” And we all know he would’ve just turned the tables on me entirely. **Anne:** A hundred percent. **Elinor:** After the protective order failed, we ended up fleeing the house with a couple of suitcases and our library books. Which I was somehow worried were gonna be overdue. That’s my brain. We lived in hiding and started the whole court process, which is an absolute nightmare. The post separation abuse, the court abuse, it’s like a stress ball. You squeeze it one way, it’s gonna come out somewhere else. His abuse just pops up in all sorts of creative ways, he just doesn’t stop. Learning how do you listen to a podcast helped keep me focused on our safety. The children in two years have not been able to access their clothes, their toys. There’s a court order saying we should be able to go get our stuff. He placed logs across the driveway, so we couldn’t drive up. I hope to be divorced from him someday. I’m glad to hear that you are now 10 years divorced from your abuser. I hope for that for myself and my children too. ## HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST: THE LIGHT AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL **Anne:** There’s a light at the end of the tunnel, and when people told me that, I was very mad. Because it didn’t feel like that. I was like, my whole life is ruined. I will be in this tunnel the rest of my life. Then post-divorce, when I experienced continued [emotional and psychological abuse](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCRS0DVdH8A), due to his “co-parenting”. Take our free [emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/) to determine if you are being abused. So I was divorced, and he was still wreaking absolute havoc on my life and my children’s life. It felt like torture. I’d say in my case, and I want to stand up for abuse victims everywhere. ‘Cause you did the right thing. Teach people how do you listen to a podcast to get help. You thought you should do at the time, and it makes total sense. You’re trying to survive. But to outsiders, they’re like, why did she do that? In my case, I did everything right. So for me, I always fought him. Or I was like, no, you’re not doing that to me. I did everything “the right way”. So an outsider wouldn’t be like, “Well, why did you do that?” Because I did everything right. The weird thing is they blame you for it, even if you do it right. So it’s a trap either way, because I got a protective order and kept it and didn’t break it, and the second it was going to expire, I got another one. So I had a six year protective order that he was still able to abuse me via co-parenting messages. When I went to court to try to take custody away. I had 40 pages of documented physical abuse and other abuse. It didn’t make a difference. ## IT DOESN’T MATTER IF YOU DO EVERYTHING “RIGHT” **Anne:** So being the person who “did everything right” and still couldn’t get help. That’s why I’m like, I have to stand up for abuse victims all over. Because it doesn’t matter if you’re doing everything “right”. The victims who are not doing it the way other people think they should. That’s not why they’re being abused. It’s still not their fault. It has nothing to do with them. So the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop](https://www.btr.org/clarity/) really came out of my absolute frustration that somebody like me could do everything right and still be forced to be abused by the court system. The system was supposed to protect me. ‘Cause at some point I was like, God is the only way out of this. As a Christian, I was like, Christ is the deliverer. As I studied deliverance and the scriptures, the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Strategies](https://www.btr.org/clarity/) came out of that. And for women who aren’t women of faith, these are secular strategies that work no matter what, and people don’t have to pray for them to work. They work great, period. ‘Cause a lot of women have been really spiritually abused, and they don’t wanna pray. And I don’t blame them. So I’m like, these work no matter what. You can learn how do you listen to a podcast and get help. That’s where the strategies came from, and they delivered me completely. He signed the kids away. In some cases, they don’t actually physically sign the rights to the kids away. He did out of court, but some of ’em just start leaving you alone. I don’t ever recommend that women take men like this to court if they’re not in court already. You’ll see when you take it. **Elinor:** Glad to hear that. ## HE CONTINUES TO DRAG THIS OUT **Anne:** ‘Cause court usually works in their favor. Even if you win after five years and spend $250,000. That’s not a win. You were just abused for two more years, and you’re in debt, like you just bought a house that’s not a house. **Elinor:** The lawyer bought a house. **Anne:** Exactly. **Elinor:** I participate in the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop](https://www.btr.org/clarity/), because I definitely need extra tips. Like right now in this legal side of it, I am drowning. Last year, I felt so hopeful, just finally being away. The gratitude and freedom like not missing him was so awesome. And this year, I thought we’d be divorced by now. I thought I would be free in more ways. And, oh no, that’s not his plan. He will continue to drag this out. So I am really glad to hear about more tips. I need them. **Anne:** Would you mind coming back? And let me know how it’s going. **Elinor:** I would love to. **Anne:** For women who are maybe listening, like you did in your car, if someone’s listening and maybe they’re in the same boat you were, where their body is screaming out, don’t leave. That seems really unsafe. ## HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST: I KEPT PRAYING FOR CLARITY **Anne:** Do you have any words to share with them? **Elinor:** I appreciated the things you shared when I knew how do you listen to a podcast and listened to yours about asking yourself, are you safe? And getting yourself to a safe place before you make that decision about them. That helped me. I started asking myself, am I safe? Am I in a place where I can feel peaceful enough to get an answer? It was so crazy in my home. I kept praying for clarity, but you can’t get clarity in that kind of situation. I just kept praying and praying, and it just didn’t come. When I finally did leave, that’s when the clarity came. I look back now and I’m like, I just wanna give myself a huge hug and be like, girl, it is okay. You didn’t know what you didn’t know, and you did the best you could with what you had then. And you wanted to keep your kids’ lives together and keep them safe. One of the things that I read somewhere that really helped me make the decision to go though, was that children witnessing domestic violence is child abuse. That was really powerful for me, and I was like, oh my gosh, my poor children. There was so much behind closed doors, but they could feel it. The things that I hear from them now about what they felt and what they saw and heard that I didn’t think they had experienced, oh, my heart for these little ones. ## IT’S HARD TO KNOW WHAT TO DO **Elinor:** I wish I could just give all the people experiencing the kinds of things that I’ve experienced and many other women have experienced. I wanna give them a huge hug and say, it’s going to be all right. And ask them to be kind to themselves. Because we’re second guessing, we’re living in such fear. [It’s hard to know what to do](/christian-help-for-infidelity/). I’m just looking back on myself and giving myself a lot of grace and saying, “You did great. You left, good job.” **Anne:** Yeah, and I think it helps women to hear somebody like me say, I did everything right and still couldn’t get out. If you know how do you listen to a podcast, you can hear other’s stories. **Elinor:** Oh my gosh, yes. **Anne:** Because then it’s like, oh, it wouldn’t have mattered how I acted. He was going to abuse me, and the way the system is, the way everything is getting to safety, is very difficult and miraculous. So there’s nothing that any of us could have done better under the circumstances. At the same time, there are some principles that had we known them. But nobody tells us. So it’s still not our fault. We didn’t learn about it in high school. We didn’t learn about it in college. There is no therapist out there. That has the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Strategies. I’ve never heard anybody say it. It’s not anything like I’ve ever heard. ‘Cause all anybody else has is don’t talk to him at all, and you’re forced to talk to him. So that’s not helpful. ## HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST LED ME TO THE LIGHT **Anne:** And, communicate better. **Elinor:** Oh yeah, the communicate better is such a bunch of garbage. When you’re dealing with this kind of person who’s going to use all communications against you. **Anne:** Yeah, so either way it’s a disaster. Well, I’m proud of you. You are brave and strong. And you’re incredible. There is a light at the end of the tunnel for you, even if it feels like there’s not. I always have to say that. ‘Cause every time somebody said that to me, I was so mad at them that I was really frustrated and wanted to tell them they didn’t know what they were talking about. If you’re feeling like that, I totally get it. And in that case, I’ll just sit here in the dark with you. It’s okay. People may recommend listening to a podcast, and you may not know how do you listen to a podcast, but taking that first step could be the one thing that helps the most. **Elinor:** Thank you so much. **Anne:** Until the light comes to you. **Elinor:** Thank you, **Anne:** Thank you so much. **Elinor:** Thanks for having me. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Is Watching Inappropriate Media Cheating? Here's What You Need to Know](https://www.btr.org/is-watching-inappropriate-media-cheating/) **Published:** September 15, 2026 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Here's why most inappropriate media is image based abuse. **Content:** If you searched “is watching inappropriate media cheating” you’re probably looking for clarity. For a woman who has just discovered what her husband has been secretly doing with his time, it feels like a betrayal because *it is*. It’s a betrayal if her husband is sharing his energy, attention, and loyalty with other women (thousands of them online). This episode is a **two-part conversation** with experts from the National Center on Sexual Exploitation. This article answers the question: is watching inappropriate media cheating? But it also answers the question underneath it: “Why does my husband’s use of inappropriate media hurt me so much… even if apparently all men do it.” ## QUICK ANSWER: IS WATCHING INAPPROPRIATE MEDIA CHEATING? In marriage, **yes**. Because it meets the basic definition of cheating: **He is engaging in sexual activities and directing sexual energy toward other people, often in secret, while expecting ongoing intimate access to his wife’s trust, body, and partnership.** And your gut response to think that he’s cheating is logical. In fact, it’s how most women feel. I’ve interviewed over 200 women who told me how terrible it felt to find out about all his lies, including his lies about how he’s been spending his time online. Over the last almost two decades, my team has helped over 8,000 women thrive after betrayal. So here’s what we know: ## IS WATCHING INAPPROPRIATE MEDIA CHEATING? YES, HERE’S WHY Below is the “wife-brain” list, the one that finally puts words to what you already know. ### 1) CHEATING IS NOT LIMITED TO PHYSICAL CONTACT WITH ANOTHER PERSON If your husband is pursuing stimulation from searching for and viewing other women online, he’s still directing intimate attention outside the marriage. He may argue “that it doesn’t mean anything” because there’s no physical contact. But your marriage is real and your natural reaction to his choice to pursue arousal with other women is healthy and real. ### 2) IT’S ALMOST ALWAYS BUILT ON SECRECY AND SECRECY IS BETRAYAL I interviewed Christen Price, an attorney at The NCOSE and we talked about how the strongest tactic of coercive control is lying to maintain power and a preferred narrative. If your husband has a pattern of using hidden or secret apps, unusual password protected accounts, and deflection, anger, or mockery when confronted, that isn’t him just needing “privacy.” He’s engaging deception, which is an obvious marker when asking, “is watching inappropriate media cheating?” ### 3) IT UNDERMINES INFORMED CONSENT INSIDE YOUR MARRIAGE Women generally consent to a marriage based on a certain set of sexual boundaries that they expect both partners share. If he’s not staying inside those boundaries (and lying about it), she’s not able to consent, either to the relationship itself or to intimacy in the relationship. She’s being kept in the dark so he can keep living a double life. Because he wants to keep the benefits of the relationship, without staying within the boundaries. That’s not partnership. That’s exploitation. ### 4) IT’S NOT “JUST CONTENT.” IT’S ACTUALLY EVIDENCE OF ABUSE in my interview, Christen defines **image-based sexual abuse (IBSA)** as the creation, threat, sharing, or use of sexual images/videos without consent or for exploitation. And then she lists what falls under that umbrella: - sextortion - non-consensual sharing (often called “revenge porn”) - hidden-camera recordings (locker rooms, showers, bedrooms, hotel rooms) - “upskirting/downblousing” - AI-generated or manipulated sexual images made from real photos - harassment using sexual content Here’s the gut-punch for wives: Her husband is watching other women being abused. When a husband says, “I would never do anything to hurt you,” he may believe that he’s not harming anyone because he’s just looking at “images.” But the inappropriate media industry involves the abuse and objectification of women, and by choosing to engage with it, he’s supporting it. ### 5) IT’S RELATIONAL INFIDELITY WHEN HE’S BONDING SEXUALLY WITH SOMEONE ELSE Even if he has no emotional “relationship” with the person he’s aroused by on a screen, if his wife is left with distance, disconnection, and feeling like she’s competing with strangers, that’s infidelity. ### 6) IT OFTEN COMES WITH GASLIGHTING: “YOU’RE THE PROBLEM” Of course a husband using inappropriate media wants to maintain the narrative “I’m a good guy.” That’s why he lies about it. So when women are hurt by these lies, she gets labeled: - insecure - controlling - prudish - too sensitive - the reason he does it That type of gaslighting is emotional abuse. To learn more and to see if you’re experiencing this type of emotional abuse, take my free [emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ### 7) IT PUTS WIVES AT REAL RISK, SOMETIMES CRIMINAL RISK In helping women face this type of betrayal for almost two decades, I’ve heard some chillingly specific stories of husbands secretly recording wives in showers or during sex and posting it for financial gain. This is non-consensual recording and distribution. Even if you’re husband isn’t doing this, if he’s watching it, that’s what motivating other men to harm their wives or girlfriends. ### 8) IT TEACHES MEN THAT THEY’RE ENTITLED TO SEX WITHOUT INTIMACY Even if something is common or deemed acceptable by some people, that doesn’t make it healthy. Melea describes why industries like this resist regulation: they don’t want their profits to decrease. When consumption of inappropriate media is easy, private, and constant, it creates a culture where: - women exist for sexualization - male arousal is a “need” - women’s bodies are commodities Wives often experience the effects of this cultural acceptance as: - increased pressure to compete sexually - decreased empathy and emotional presence - an unwillingness to acknowledge and repair harm And all of these erode the foundation of safety and intimacy that marriage is supposed to be built on. ### 9) IT IMPACTS KIDS, DIRECTLY AND INDIRECTLY Even the most tech savvy husband who thinks he’s keeping it “private,” can’t guarantee that curious kids, with devices on shared Wi-Fi, won’t be impacted his browsing history. He’s not just risking damage to a marriage. He’s risking the emotional safety of your children. Melea Stevens, board member at The National Center on Sexual Exploitation, talks about a “filter bill”, which creates default safety settings on phones/tablets. ## WHAT TO KNOW WHEN SEARCHING **“IS WATCHING INAPPROPRIATE MEDIA CHEATING”** Most women search because they feel betrayed, and they don’t realize it’s exploitation. - It’s not just cheating, he’s participating in the **real exploitation of women and girls**. - Thinking “it doesn’t hurt anyone” dismisses the real harm done to real people and relationships. If your husband is consuming it, hiding it, minimizing it, and expecting you to live with the consequences of that lie, yes, it’s cheating. And it’s actually so much more. Christen Price and Melea Stevens from the National Center on Sexual Exploitation are on the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to clearly articulate why watching it is so harmful to women. ![Reasons Infidelity is Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Reasons-Infidelity-Is-Abuse.webp "Reasons Infidelity is Abuse")## TRANSCRIPT: IS WATCHING INAPPROPRIATE MEDIA CHEATING? HERE’S WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW **Anne:** I have Christen Price and Melea Stevens on today’s episode. Christen serves as Senior Legal Counsel for the [National Center on Exploitation Law Center.](https://endsexualexploitation.org) She engages in legal advocacy to end impunity for all forms of sexual exploitation.[ In her role at NCOSE](https://endsexualexploitation.org) Christen works to influence courts and legislatures. Toward protecting human dignity and equality on behalf of exploitation survivors, as well as[ resources to stop human trafficking](https://www.btr.org/is-watching-inappropriate-media-cheating/ " resources to stop human trafficking"). Through legislative advocacy, litigation, and support for other attorneys. Particularly in terms of trafficking, prostitution, child abuse, and image based abuse. Malea is on the board of the National Center for Exploitation. ![Reasons Infidelity is Abusive](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Reasons-Infidelity-Is-Abusive.webp "Reasons Infidelity is Abusive")Welcome Christen. **Christen:** Thank you so much for having me. **Anne:** I met Christen in person a while back. She impressed me with her passion for protecting victims. I want to jump straight into talking about image-based abuse. What is image based abuse? ## FORMS OF IMAGE-BASED ABUSE **Christen:** Image based abuse is a broad term. That includes a wide range of harmful experiences involving the weaponization of explicit images or videos. IBSA involves creating, threatening to share, sharing, or using recordings without the consent of the person in them or for exploitation purposes. So sometimes people call one form of this revenge posting of intimate media, but at NCOSE we try to avoid this term because it implies that the person victimized by it did something wrong to the perpetrator, and that this is some kind of punishment payback. But the reality is that men do this to women for any reason or for absolutely no reason at all. ![Infidelity is Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Infidelity-Is-Abuse-1.webp "Infidelity is Abuse")**Anne:** Right! I’ve [spoken to human trafficking survivors](https://www.btr.org/human-trafficking-survivor-speakers/ "spoken to human trafficking survivors") who share their experiences with this. When you say men do this to women. This podcast is specifically for women, victims of exploitation perpetrated by men. And so all of our listeners are women. Well, my intent is to help women.We do have some men listeners, but when you say that, does it ever happen the other way around? **Christen:** It definitely happens the other way around. And also women can victimize other women, men can victimize other men. But the victims are disproportionately women, and the perpetrators are disproportionately men. And I think the figures vary somewhat. In a 2017 US survey conducted with 3, 000 or so participants, one in eight people were targets of distribution. Or threat of [distribution of intimate images without consent](https://www.btr.org/distribution-of-intimate-images-without-consent-federal/). Women were roughly twice as likely to be targets of this abuse. Compared to the men in that particular survey. ## NEWS HIGHLIGHTS **Christen:** But there was another survey by the Cyber Civil Rights Initiative. And in their survey, over 90 percent of the victims were women, mostly between 18 and 30 years old. So there’s some variation there, of course. That IBSA affects women and girls disproportionately isn’t in dispute. **Anne:** Because I advocate for women, I appreciate those statistics. And letting people know that this is a woman’s health issue. It’s important to women, especially my listeners. Are there news stories that highlight this issue? **Christen:** So there is one. It’s significant because it shows the level of impunity people at least think they have when they perpetrate this. They arrested the mayor of a town in Maryland, called Cambridge, late last year. It’s maybe an hour and a half outside of DC where I am. They charged him with 50 counts of non consensual distribution. ![Here's Why Infidelity Is Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Heres-Why-Infidelity-Is-Abuse.webp "Heres Why Infidelity is Abuse")The CEO and the COO of —-hub, or MindGeek, the company that controls it, have resigned. You know, this is in the wake of years of reporting, but especially over the last two years. Of how their flagship site facilitates and profits from image-based abuse in the United States. In all of its various forms. **Anne:** When Christen says image based abuse, what I want you to think in your mind is pornography. This is what we are talking about. So [husbands who are constantly on their phone](https://www.btr.org/why-is-my-husband-constantly-on-his-phone/ "husbands who are constantly on their phone") looking at this stuff. Would you say all of it, or most of it, is image based abuse? For our listeners who are so traumatized by their husband’s use? ## IMAGE-BASED ABUSE IS HAPPENING **Christen:** So one thing that might be helpful would be to go down the list of the different things that fall under this category. And then you realize, wow, this is what is on sites and drives traffic to these sites. The whole industry, because it is an industry, is a profitable enterprise to exploit other people in this way. This obviously has implications, even for people who don’t end up portrayed on the websites. There’s a sense that exploitative materials use is abusive to people in general, especially women and girls. Because it’s incompatible with their full equality in society. If this is a way they can be portrayed with impunity. It has implications for everyone. **Christen:** But just to go down the list of the different things that fall under image based abuse (IBSA). One is sextortion, which uses inappropriate images or materials that the perpetrator blackmails the victim. Or coerces them to produce increasingly inappropriate content. So that in exchange, the initial content is not released. So that’s sextortion. ![is Infidelity Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Is-Infidelity-Abuse.webp "is Infidelity Abuse")Then, this is the one I think most people think of when they hear the term image based abuse. Non-consensual sharing of images. Which is sometimes accompanied by doxxing, which is you share the content. But then you add the person’s name, their address, or other identifying or locating information. **Anne:** Many women in our community have had their husbands secretly video them in the shower or while they were in their bedroom. This kind of behavior is also [what marital coercion is.](https://www.btr.org/what-is-marital-coercion/ "what marital coercion is.") They did not know. And then he posts that online, and other people watch it as “pornography.” Not knowing that they’re actually viewing abuse. That happens frequently to women in our community. ## NON-CONSENSUAL RECORDINGS & HARASSMENT **Christen:** Yeah, that’s actually the next one I was going to say, which is non-consensual collecting. Swapping and posting of these types of images in groups or in third party platforms. As you noted, if IBSA is used, absolutely. I mean, they didn’t have consent to take the image, let alone to distribute it. Non-consensual recordings of images or videos of other types of activities, they’re not doing anything intimate. They expect they’re in a private context, like showering in the gym or even in their home or hotel room. So restrooms or locker rooms people put surveillance cameras. We call that downblousing or upskirting. Another form it takes is harassment or assault in virtual or augmented reality. So harassment through direct messaging or assault of somebody’s avatar. Like in a virtual context. https://youtube.com/shorts/mHgIHT2Dtrw Sending unsolicited material, also called cyber flashing. Identity theft, where people take someone’s images to make artificial or photoshopped videos. It’s intended to portray them as though they’re really in it. We call that cheap fake or deep fake. And then pressuring or harassing someone to self generate or share inappropriate images. So it’s quite a variety of offenses that fall under this category. And much of it makes its way onto massive public sites. ## THE ABUSIVE NATURE OF ONLINE EXPLOITATIVE MATERIAL **Anne:** I would say the average user has no idea that it is abusive. In fact, when you educate them about it, they dismiss it. They’re like, whatever. In our experience, listeners of this podcast, you’re hurting our family and marriage. You’re also just flat out watching abuse, and it’s like, no, that’s not how it is. **Christen:** Do you think people who say that read the tags for the material they’re watching? Because sometimes they tag it as spycam or locker room or something like that. There will be clear indications that it’s not consensual. I’m not saying that’s always the case. But that’s a thing that they to drive traffic. They categorize things. **Anne:** What I’m saying is they’re like, yeah, it’s a spy cam, but she doesn’t know. And she doesn’t even know it’s online. So why is it hurting her? One thing I have learned about abusers is they do not want to admit they are abusive. They don’t want to call it abuse. They want to call it anything else, because they want to continue to justify their behavior. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) People call this stuff out there spy cam material, not abusive spy cam material. It’s disconnected. In fact, this was fascinating. I talked to a convicted offender. He was like, wow, his mind was blown. He never thought of himself as an abuser, even though he was a convicted offender. **Christen:** Wow. **Anne:** How prevalent is image based abuse, IBSA and who is the most affected by it? ## IS WATCHING INAPPROPRIATE MEDIA CHEATING? YES, AND IT’S ACTUALLY SO MUCH MORE **Christen:** It’s impossible to know what percentage of it falls under this, which is one of the big dangers. Because someone tags it in a certain way. But it’s not necessarily going to be apparent that someone is watching abusive content. Once you put together the fact that this includes CSAM Which is rife on the internet. **Anne:** When you say CSAM. Our community commonly refers to that for our listeners who don’t know, as CSAM. I appreciate that NCOSE and many advocates are trying to change that language. Christen: No, thanks for saying that. I meant to include that. It is still called in the law in most places. So that’s an important distinction. It includes extremely violent and dangerous content. Which is pretty obviously harmful, regardless of whether they obtained consent. It includes the type of spy cam and other types of surreptitious recording or non consensually distributed content. So all that is abusive. All of that is exploitative, most of it is illegal in many jurisdictions. Much of what seems to drive traffic to some of these sites is this type of content. A subreddit on Reddit, I think it’s called wife pic, has 250, 000 members. The abuse is prevalent and rampant. It’s a massive risk. Anyone who consumes it chooses to consume someone’s abuse. A Human Being Is Always Objectified ## IMAGE BASED EXPLOITATION IS ABUSIVE **Anne:** We take the stance at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, people disagree with me, and I don’t care. That all use is abusive, period. It’s abusive to someone, somehow. Someone’s coerced, lied to, manipulated and harmed. That is our stance. So when you’re talking specifically about image based abuse. I think you’re also specifically talking about criminal things. People are arrested for those things. **Christen:** Yes, or at least sued, in some cases. **Anne:** With our listeners, the abuse they’re experiencing, the emotional and psychological abuse, is not a “crime.” So they have a difficult time figuring out how to get help. But it is good for them to know that anyone consuming this type of material. Or producing it will have some danger to you. **Christen:** Yes, there’s no exploitative material in which a human being is not objectified. That’s always present. So much of it is extremely violent and degrading, especially to women. Thinking it’s unharmful shifts the norms and expectations for all women. It’s like basically a form of propaganda. It conditions women to submit to violence rather than resist it, among other things. Women and girls are most affected by it, disproportionately. So especially younger women and girls. **Anne:** Yeah, here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, even if the wives aren’t the ones filmed, our husbands use continues to affect us. When we think about the victims in image based abuse, and these degrading acts being visible to other people. Where do people generally post them? ## IBSA IS POSTED ANYWHERE YOU CAN POST **Christen:** They’re posted anywhere you can post things. Google will index searches for this type of content. I mean, it is everywhere. Some sites specifically devote themselves to sharing non-consensually distributed content. Really all over chat groups and texts. **Anne:** It’s alarming to think about. **Christen:** It really is. **Anne:** Apps, anywhere you can find anything, you can find it. But I would say the public is not. When you’re trying to explain to people why exploitative material is abusive, what arguments have you found useful? **Christen:** Thinking about how it works as a tactic, and also thinking about the impact, I make it clear that’s the right category for it. Taking the standard definition of abuse, it’s typically a set of tactics. Usually it’s systematic or calculated. That one person uses to gain and maintain coercive control over another. And it can be physical, emotional, financial or spiritual. Image based abuse fits squarely within that. It’s ultimately about maintaining coercive control over another person. Men have posted things because women wouldn’t go out with them, or because they broke up with them. And when we look at what effect it has on the victims, that also very much tracks with what we understand abuse to be. **Anne:** Coercive control is the main theme. When it comes to the husbands. They’re doing the same thing, but it’s in a different way. So they’re using coercive control to manipulate, lie, to gaslight to hide their use. So they’re lying to them about their whereabouts. ## EXPLOITATIVE ONLINE IMAGES ARE ABUSIVE: LIES & HYPOCRISY **Anne:** They’re lying about their use of time or why they’re angry about something. Or they’re trying to gaslight to make sure their wife doesn’t know the types of things they’re doing. Because they want their wife to live in a different reality. But he wants his wife to think he’s a good guy. That he’s a churchgoer, that he’s an upstanding member of society. So it’s that same coercive control to maintain the narrative. I’m a good guy. I’m a good husband. You, wife, you’ve got some problems. And if you would cook better, or if you would be more respectful of me, or if you would appreciate my job more. Then maybe our marriage would be good. That gaslighting happens all the time. And that is why I want to hit home to the addiction recovery community. Or other communities that these men are abusers. They’re not just users. They are abusive to their wives. And it’s important for people to understand. That we’re talking about a specific type of trauma to the women being filmed. **Anne:** Why is it so important to recognize that this is trauma? And people actually document it and then post it? **Christen:** Yes, I think it’s exactly what you just said. Their trauma is posted. If I were to sum it up, I would say probably for the three reasons that it’s a really prevalent form of trauma. ## TRAUMA & ITS MANIFESTATIONS **Christen:** Going back to the statistics from earlier, it’s extremely destructive. People usually commit it with impunity. Impunity just means you’re getting away with it. You’re getting away with the thing in a way that is so clear and obvious, you have no reason to stop doing it. Other people watching what’s happening don’t have a reason to not do the same thing themselves. **Anne:** Oh, this is happening in people’s families too. It’s amazing, the parallels between the two, the impunity with the divorce, or they’re still getting child custody. **Christen:** Some ways the trauma manifests for the people depicted include high levels of anxiety, PTSD, depression, shame and humiliation, loss of trust and agency. The risk of suicide is very, very high. Some 51 percent of people responding to one survey said they had contemplated suicide due to their experience with image based abuse. It’s also important to note that this is a form of abuse that never ends. Someone else can always share or upload the images. It may never fully go away. It’s an abusive situation, a person may never fully exit. Survivors shared with us that their reputations are completely lost. They’ve lost jobs or had to leave jobs because of the level of harassment directed at them. When people realized it was them in the videos. They’re constantly anxious in social situations, wondering if someone has seen the content. They’ve had family and other relationships destroyed because of this, so it, it really manifests. Like other forms of trauma. **Anne:** The federal government passed a law against revenge —ography. ## FEDERAL LAW AGAINST REVENGE MATERIAL **Anne:** Can you tell us about the law? **Christen:** It provides victims with the right to sue for non-consensually distributed content. If the person who disclosed it knew or recklessly disregarded the depicted person’s lack of consent. So when it allows people to sue for damages, it allows them to potentially get a temporary restraining order. Or an injunction, basically ordering the perpetrator to stop displaying or disclosing the image. There are some exceptions that I think are a bit concerning about who can bring an action under this law. So basically, there’s an exception called matters of public concern or interest. In my view, it is vague and appears to exclude any possible cause of action if something is deemed to fall within that category. And my perspective on that is famous or well known women shouldn’t be public property either. It doesn’t address the rights of a person if someone is not well known. There was no public interest in appearing in content alongside someone who was. That’s one exception that raises a flag for me. And then there’s another exception related to commercial content. Basically, it means content with people who appear under 30 if force does not produce it, fraud, misrepresentation, or coercion. They would accept that kind of content. In some ways, it means that the websites most likely to be exempt are ones most likely to have people under 30 exploiting younger people. It also exempts the websites and people likely to profit from the display of the content. So if someone ran his own website with younger looking people. He couldn’t be sued by his wife or ex girlfriend for non-consensually posting her images on it. As long as she isn’t coerced to make the video. ## IMAGE BASED EXPLOITATION USE IS ABUSIVE: THE ISSUE OF CONSENT **Christen:** To me, these are exceptions that are worrisome, and ultimately I think make the law incomplete. But I think it can be useful for some victims to have legal recourse. **Anne:** When you say consent, that word is just fraught in our community. Because women give their consent to marry, for example. They’re giving their consent to be in a relationship, but that doesn’t mean they give their consent to be abused. When you say, yeah, they consented to participate. But they’re not consenting to be manipulated or gaslit. This law is a he said, she said. Is the consent issue clear when it comes to this law? Or does it get caught in the same kind of rape/domestic violence problems? Where you can’t ever prove it. **Christen:** It’s a good question. It’s hard to say right now, because no one has tried to use the law yet. I think a lot depends on how judges interpret it, and how it’s actually used. This type of law is not covered in the federal trafficking law, which covers it. The standard for whether something meets the definition of trafficking is whether it features a minor? Or was it produced through force, fraud, or coercion? So in a sense, consent is arguably not a defense if people mean agreement. People can coerce you into agreeing to something. You can be deceived into agreeing to something. If either of those two things are present, the crime is still committed. So I think it remains to be seen if this specific law will take a similar view. ## LEGAL RECOURSE & COERCION **Christen:** It seems to anticipate that people may produce content through coercion and deception. That’s included in the law. It wouldn’t necessarily let you sue a commercial website, but it would let you sue the person who posted it. So they seem to anticipate coercion as possible in this context, but I think a lot will depend on how things end up being interpreted. **Anne:** We’ve spent a lot of time talking about this. I know some of you listening are victims of this. Like your own husband has posted things of you, or you’re a victim of revenge \_\_\_ography. You’re a victim of abuse in this way. Many of you, I personally talked to you, and you have been afraid to press charges. Number one, because you’re not sure if you want a divorce, you’re not sure if things will work out with your husband. I want to encourage you to do something. The best hope for your husband not to be abusive is to actually account for his crime. Even if you think there’s some chance it will work out. I still think if he were truly changed, truly repentant, truly non abusive, he would take accountability for what he’s done. And so reporting it is an important step. So I know that reporting domestic violence, especially if it is your husband or your boyfriend, is important. It’s a safety issue, so I want to acknowledge that. ## RESOURCES FOR VICTIMS **Anne:** At the same time, there are resources available. **Christen:** Yes, one of the main resources we recommend is the Cyber Civil Rights Initiative. It’s specifically helpful for victims in the United States. They have a crisis helpline, and the number is (844) 878-2274, and you can talk to a counselor 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. They also have an online removal guide. Which walks people through instructions for how to address content they found on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Tumblr, Google, Snapchat, and other sites. And then they also have some international resources for people in Australia, Brazil, Israel, Palestine, Pakistan, South Korea, Taiwan, and the United Kingdom. Our main recommendation is definitely to contact them. Listeners are also welcome to contact the NCOSE Law Center. We do have a number of lawsuits addressing image-based abuse. Although at the moment, almost all concern child abuse victims. Adults who were minors when their content was posted. We have lawsuits against big suppliers **Anne:** Many of our listeners actually might be victims and might not know it at all. We are here for you. NCOSE is here for you. And the resources she just talked about are here for you. If you’re a concerned woman and you want to advocate to make this world safer. You need to check out NCOSE at [endsexualexploitation.org](https://endsexualexploitation.org). ## ADVOCACY & PUBLIC AWARENESS **Christen:** Speaking broadly, there is a market for this kind of content on —-hub and all these other sites. Demand drives markets. So the first thing a regular person can do, especially men and boys, is not consume the abuse. This is a profitable industry. It is driven by the fact that people want to see this stuff. I would also say if you’re in one of the two states that currently don’t have a law against this type of content. Definitely advocate with your local leaders for such a law. I think there’s a need to educate boys and men and the public about this issue in a way that puts the responsibility for it where it belongs. I think that in many ways, as a society, the way we talk about assault has changed for the better. We’re not just telling women to watch out or blame them for not fighting back. You know, we recognize that it’s on men not to perpetrate, and I think the same applies with this issue. We can’t just tell women and girls to watch out or be more careful. We need to teach men and boys not to perpetrate. Part of the importance of this abuse framing is doing that. It’s calling this thing by its right name, calling it by the term that shows how seriously wrong it is. And how seriously abusive to human rights. ## THE IMPORTANCE OF SAFE HOMES **Christen:** And I think that’s a big part of what any person can do with any type of gendered violence or abuse. To call the thing by its right name. I think so often men’s violence against women, abuse of women and girls, is disappeared by how we talk about it. Or the fact that we don’t talk about it. So I think that’s a big thing that any person can do. **Anne:** I’m reminded of the Jackson Katz quote. “We talk about how many women were raped last year, not how many men raped women.” For our listeners, since they’re not men and boys, the number one thing you can do is get to safety in your own home. The number one thing you can do is learn how to get to safety yourself, and how to ensure your own home is safe. That’s number one. When your own home is safe, the number two thing you can do if you want to get involved is check out the [NCOSE Website](https://endsexualexploitation.org). They have many campaigns there. You can get on their email list. I’m on their email list. I love it when I get their emails. Things like, sign this petition or send an email to your Senator. And they give you a template of things that you can do. So at least, that gives you some scaffolding to start making some progress. If you want to do something, but you don’t know where to start. The NCOSE website, and they have a summit every year, and getting involved that way is a good way to start making change in the world. ## PERSONAL REFLECTIONS ON ABUSE **Anne:** I want to say for me personally, when I was in my abusive relationship. I was so focused on addiction recovery, I didn’t understand it was abuse. So I went down the wrong road for a while. And I was also involved with NCOSE which was awesome. And I loved it, but I spent a lot of time trying to solve the world’s problems. Not at that time to actually get to safety myself. And I have found that I am much more effective in making the world safer when my own home is safe. And it’s impossible to make the world safer, so that your home is safe. It’s much easier to make your home safe first, and then help the world, than the other way around. You can actually literally, within a few years, three to six years, actually make your home a safe place. It takes a long time. It’s hard to learn boundaries. It’s hard to learn these skills, but it is possible. The fight and exploitation that we are all involved in, it’s like a worldwide battle that will take a long time. And so don’t wait for that. Don’t think, okay, well, when, the US passes a law that it’s illegal and my husband can’t watch it anymore, then I’ll be safe. Please do not wait for that. Get to safety now. There is a peaceful and safe place. ## THE SYSTEMIC NATURE OF ABUSE **Christen:** One final thing from me, it’s just a broader point that I think reflects some of the things we’ve talked about I think the way people often perceive it can follow this pattern. Of the way that the invisibility of various forms of violence and abuse against women is invisible. Whether the abuser is a pimp, a husband, a boss, or a film producer. Violence and abuse are not seen as political, systemic, as an attack against women as a class. And I think it’s important that we identify this as the sort of systemic thing that it is. Because it’s incompatible with gender equality in a society. **Anne:** It is systemic, because when our listeners try to get out, they go to a therapist, they go to clergy, and they get like, oh, it’s a communication issue, or, oh, you’re just not having it enough. They don’t get, oh, he’s abusive. I went to therapy for seven years with an emotional and psychological abuser who also coerced me. I did addiction recovery for seven years. No one told me I was abused. It is insane. I go to a church with an on the books doctrine and policy that no abuse will be tolerated. And all my clergy were like, oh, he’s such a good guy. They didn’t know it was abuse. I didn’t know it was abuse. Because of that misunderstanding and not labeling it for what it is. Women are continually harmed. And men continually abuse with impunity. And it is absolutely systemic and dangerous, not just for women, but also for men. ## THE NEED FOR HEALTHY RELATIONSHIPS **Anne:** Because they can’t have a healthy relationship or have a peaceful, healthy life if they’re abusive. So, the answer for everyone is healthy, non-abusive interactions with other people, and non-exploitative interactions. So thank you for all your work again. I cannot stress enough how important their work is. Please visit their website, [endsexualexploitation.org](https://endsexualexploitation.org). **Anne:** Christen, thank you so much for coming on today’s episode. **Christen:** Thank you so much for having me. **Anne:** Okay, Melea, you got involved with NCOSE, because you’ve seen young children addicted to online inappropriate material for over 23 years, thanks for talking with me today. **Melea:** Thank you for having me **Anne:** Melea lives in Alabama. She’s currently working on passing a bill in her state. We’ll also talk about how you can help [protect children online](https://www.btr.org/how-can-we-protect-children-online/ "protect chilcren online") in your location. Can you tell us about what’s going on in Alabama right now? **Melea:** We worked to pass what we call a filter bill. It’s a bill that would require tablets and smartphones to have the filters defaulted on. One of the names it had was the default to safety bill. We had different names at different points, but a similar bill passed in Utah a few years ago. And we wanted to pass it in Alabama. Several other states are interested in introducing it. One reason we wanted to promote this bill is that we know 47 percent of young children have their first unwanted early exposure on smartphones and tablets. It’s just a common sense protection to have pre-existing filters already on smartphones and tablets defaulted on. Versus putting the burden on caregivers and parents to try to go through 30 some odd steps on many devices to figure out how to activate existing content filters. ## DETAILS OF THE FILTER BILL **Melea:** We have Supreme Court precedent that says it is preferable for protections to come at the filter level on devices. We know this bill would be upheld in court. And we’re confident it would be very enforceable. And all it is simply doing is asking that three major companies, Amazon with the Kindle, the Apple products and Google with their products, have smartphones and tablets. That a software update would happen, which is a very simple fix. We’ve talked to software experts who work closely with device manufacturers. They would just do a very simple update that would allow phones activated in Alabama to have the default on instead of off with the content filter. And it automatically has broad based protections for young children, so they’re less likely to stumble across online inappropriate material at an early age. People would say kids will find ways to get around it, obviously, but we were talking about very young children who aren’t even thinking about it that stumble upon this content. And it Is very traumatic to them to not understand what they’re looking at and the way it affects their brain. This gives them extra years of innocence, safety, and protection. I had the honor of speaking to different parent groups. And have spoken to schools and churches in areas where kids don’t have involved parents. And those children, child on child, harmful behavior is rampant in those communities. Parents just hand children devices. They need resources to stop human trafficking and this behavior. No one’s looking for them, and they can become addicted to online inappropriate material and they act out what they see. That’s what children do. They copy what they see. ## CHALLENGES & OPPOSITION **Melea:** Then there’s a cycle of abuse happening and a cycle of trauma. So I especially think about those children when I think about this bill. We’ve been excited. We had a great response and had 67 bipartisan co sponsors in the House, and it passed through committee with bipartisan support. We got to the Senate, it passed through committee with bipartisan support. There are people working hard to stop human trafficking and help with this effort. It was poised to be passed through the Senate. But we had one person in the Senate, who refused to allow it on the calendar. It only takes one or two people to set the calendar. They blocked it because a lot of opposition turned up to fight along the way. And that’s been true in every other state. Big tech has been our opposition. And telecommunications companies have also shown up at all our hearings with their lobbyists. Even though our bill has zero to do with companies like AT&T or Verizon. They’re not held liable. It’s explicitly stated in our bill. They would show up, because unfortunately, big tech and telecommunications companies and the industry will sometimes fight common sense [browsing protections for kids](https://www.btr.org/what-is-cleanbrowsing/). And it’s really sad. But that’s one of the things we dealt with. Unfortunately, this gentleman blocked it. We assume there was pressure from lobbyists and one company in particular. ## IT’S NOT JUST CHEATING, IT’S EXPLOITATION **Anne:** They’ll say all kinds of reasons that aren’t real. What’s the reason they don’t want to do it? Is it just simply money, this [type of exploitation](https://www.btr.org/types-of-exploitation/ "type of exploitation") is sadly about money. **Melea:** Money is a big factor. We know that historically, Google, AT&T or Verizon, do they get back general profits from online explicit material? **Melea:** They do, and they have. There is potentially a loss of revenue. Big tech hates regulations. They do not want to be restricted in any way, shape, or form. They don’t want to give up an inch. So I think money, power, and resistance to any form of regulation. To me, it’s a safety feature on a on a car or something like requiring that they have proper antilock brakes on a car, something reasonable. And in this case, it’s just a simple software update. All the technology is there. **Anne:** I hope this does not sound too political, but I’m a patriot saying, I’m grateful for all the government services we have. We have roads, we have a military, we have things in place to keep us safe. And that’s only something that the government can do, because the government is all of us. So I am so grateful that we have these opportunities to protect us. We need to do that through the government, because nobody’s going to willingly do that. Although NCOSE has worked well with some companies. So that is exciting. They provide resources to stop human trafficking and are helping this bill to pass. ## RESOURCES TO STOP HUMAN TRAFFICKING: THE DIRTY DOZEN LIST **Melea:** Absolutely, yeah, there’s opportunity. Companies respond to positive communication and sometimes negative. We have what’s called the dirty dozen list, and name and shame the main promoters of exploitation. We have had tremendous success, because once things are brought to light, it’s been refreshing that several companies have changed their corporate policies and resources to stop trafficking or unwanted exposure to online inappropriate material. This has been a very tooth and nail fight all along the way. The opposition will say, well, you should just be fighting the online inappropriate material, instead of asking the manufacturers to do this at the device level, which I agree. We are like the National Center on Exploitation, and many of our allies are constantly fighting the industry to make changes there. But I wish our government was stepping up in this issue. Because the laws on the books on a federal level would prohibit the production and distribution of hardcore online inappropriate material, which is the majority of harmful on the internet. And also our laws prohibit the distribution of all online inappropriate material, whether soft core or hardcore, from our internet. But our department of justice for many years has not been enforcing federal obscenity laws. That leaves us to tackle this issue of illegal content through corporate strategies and legislation. Through lawsuits, like we have lawsuits against providers that are, we’re winning right now. We’re gutting companies because of lawsuits that we have with survivors. So we’re having to go at it every different angle. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## PRACTICAL STEPS & COMMUNITY SUPPORT **Melea:** And to everyday citizens that want to make a difference and make an impact when it comes to stopping and resources to stop trafficking and exploitation in general. At NCOSE, we understand that you’ve got to go upstream. I don’t know if you’ve heard the analogy of seeing people floating down the river drowning. You rush in to try to pull out as many as possible, and you’re struggling to get as many to safety as possible. And you do this for a long time until you’re exhausted, but you’re not able to get to everyone. Eventually you come to this idea of like, I’ve got to go upstream and figure out who’s throwing people in the river. And so you go upstream and find out there’s someone who’s shoving all these people into the river. And in this case, that’s the industry because today’s mainstream online inappropriate material is highly addictive. It changes their belief system, gives them permission, giving beliefs about consent and buying. People become objects. It’s creating a world of harm. And we know that if we did not have rampant, hardcore material if it was restricted to adult bookstores. Like you had back in the eighties with soft core material. As bad as that was, if we just lived back in that world, that’s what our laws on the book say. ## RESOURCES TO STOP HUMAN TRAFFICKING: NCOSE’S ACTION CENTER **Melea:** Our world should look like when it comes to online inappropriate material in the United States. There should be nothing on the internet, nothing on cable, or satellite TV. Can you imagine how different our world would be if our children could go through their developmental years without exposure to it around every corner? So that’s what we strive for is a shift in cultural expectations. But then there are also practical things we’re doing to interrupt the cycles of things feeding trafficking. So we’d love for them to come to our website. It’s [endsexualexploitation.org](https://endsexualexploitation.org). And if you go to the action center, you can immediately get involved in helping us stop human trafficking and winning these victories. **Anne:** I recommend NCOSE because so many people are talking about trafficking these days. And I have a really interesting story that is super alarming. So, one of my friends was on an airplane, and she was sitting next to a man, and they started talking about politics. He said, “I’m voting for this person because of his record on trafficking, because he will protect the children.” Her ears perked up and she was like, oh, really, tell me more about this. He said, yeah, there’s these people are stealing these kids and we’ve got to stop it. And then she said, what do you do for a living? And guess what he did for a living? **Melea:** What? **Anne:** He owned a strip club. **Melea:** Oh my gosh. You’re kidding. **Anne:** No, so here’s a man who is an actual literal trafficker. He owns a strip club. And he’s talking about this nameless faceless group of people who’s like kidnapping kids when we know who they are. It’s him. ## GETTING INVOLVED WITH NCOSE **Anne:** We know who the exploiters are. It’s obvious. Getting involved with NCOSE is so awesome, because it’s clear what’s happening. So that you can say, okay, this particular Senator, he’s the one blocking this bill. We can write to that particular Senator and ensure that this bill gets passed. So I love that NCOSE clears out all the confusion, because at least this man who owned the strip club loved saying, oh yeah, we got to stop trafficking to distract from the fact that he was a trafficker. We need the resources to stop human trafficking, which NCOSE has. **Melea:** Talk about denial and hypocrisy, or else just a good marketing scheme there, yeah. **Anne:** That is scary these days. So I love that NCOSE is a very reputable organization that has been around for a long time. **Melea:** They do their research, and they are careful about the details before they speak out. That’s one reason I’m hesitant as a spokeswoman for NCOSE. I want to make sure I do my best to accurately present the facts, because they have such a high standard when it comes to what they share and do. They’re very intentional and I respect that about them and they will correct themselves if there is something that they find out is inaccurate, but they do things with a lot of integrity and they get a lot done with a very small budget and a small group of people. **Anne:** Well, that’s the other thing I love about NCOSE. ## NCOSE’S CREDIBILITY & INTEGRITY **Anne:** Because so many people talk to me about it, they’ll be like, nobody’s doing anything. And I’m like, every year, NCOSE with their dirty dozen list, they make progress. They have wins. And if you’re on their mailing list, you’ll get messages, and it’s so amazing to be part of that, because you can feel the momentum. And as much as this online stuff is this overarching, exploitative, abusive, systemic problem. It affects every woman who listens to this podcast. And so many families all over the world, it’s horrific. It needs to be stopped, it’s an abuse issue. The exploiters, they don’t want people to know that progress is being made. They want people to think it’s a lost cause or fine, and what’s your problem? We should just let this go. Or the alternative, which is, there’s nothing you can do. **Melea:** They want it to seem that it’s a right and an entitlement, first and foremost. They don’t want people to know that it’s illegal. They want people to feel this is a free speech issue. And it’s not, it’s not protected speech, but you would think that’s the case given everything they do. They have all these organizations that are under misleading names, such as this free speech coalition, various names that make it sound like they’re anti exploitation as well. They have some groups that sound like they’re anti trafficking, that they’re actually the industry putting up a false front to sound like they’re being benevolent, and they’re doing everything they can to undermine decency in society. ## THE BEST RESOURCES TO STOP HUMAN TRAFFICKING **Melea:** So you have to do your homework and dig deep when it comes to these issues. A legislator presented this filter bill, just like in our state and in other states. Several groups came in acting like they were, pro family, pro children presenting Trojan horse stills that sounded anti exploitation, and people fell for it. It’s a very sneaky opponent. Thankfully, the law is on our side, science is on our side. As we educate the public about the harms of it on the brain and relationships in society. And as we educate the public about what the law actually says. They become empowered to push back against this evil industry. **Anne:** And so that my listeners are not distracted by actual traffickers who say, Hey, I want to stop trafficking. So you don’t accidentally support a trafficker. NCOSE is the place to get your information to stop human trafficking. They are trustworthy, they’ve been around for so long, and they do their homework. And they know who the specific people are and talk about specific actionable things. That’s what makes it so effective. **Melea:** Well, thank you so much. Enjoyed my time with you. **Anne:** Yes, you too. Thank you. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Here's What Makes the Best Emotional Support Groups Online](https://www.btr.org/emotional-abuse-support-groups-online/) **Published:** September 22, 2026 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Looking for the best emotional abuse support groups online? Here are 4 things to help. **Content:** Are you looking for the [best emotional abuse support groups online](/group/)? Here’s what you need to know. ### 1. DO THE EMOTIONAL ABUSE SUPPORT GROUPS ONLINE HAVE OTHER RESOURCES? The best emotional abuse support groups online have educational resources like a podcast, workshops, or even quizzes to help you understand exactly what’s happening to you. For example, did you know there are over 19 different types of emotional abuse? Take our [free emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/) to see if you’re experiencing any of the 19 types. ### 2. DO THE EMOTIONAL ABUSE SUPPORT GROUPS ONLINE COVER ALL TYPES OF EMOTIONAL ABUSE? If the emotional abuse support groups online don’t understand betrayal trauma, which is trauma resulting from emotional abuse caused by infidelity and deceit, then the group may not meet your needs. ### 3. DO THE EMOTIONAL ABUSE SUPPORT GROUPS ONLINE MEET MULTIPLE TIMES A DAY IN ALL TIME ZONES? There’s no telling when your husband will be emotionally abusive. When something happens and you need support right away, consider attending a [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session](/group/) for emotional abuse. Check out the Group Session schedule. ### 4. DO THE EMOTIONAL ABUSE SUPPORT GROUPS ONLINE ACTUALLY HELP YOU GET TO EMOTIONAL SAFETY? A lot of support groups blame you for what’s going on. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we never victim blame. Instead, we help victims figure out exactly what’s going on and what to do next through our [Living Free Workshop](/livingfree/). Key takeaways from this interview: - **[The Long History of Women Being Left Without Support](#long-history-of-failing-to-help-women)** - [**How a Culture of Misogyny Undermines Legal Support for Women**](#culture-of-misogyny) - **[How Institutional Betrayal Creates More Trauma](#institutional-betrayal-trauma)** - **[When Leaders Fail to Enact Policies that Support Women](#policies-supporting-women)** - **[Why So Many Women Don’t Know What to Search For](#emotional-abuse-education)** ## TRANSCRIPT: HERE’S WHAT MAKES THE BEST EMOTIONAL ABUSE SUPPORT GROUPS ONLINE **Anne:** I have Elizabeth Estabrooks, MSW on today’s episode. She’s a writer, speaker, author with subject matter expertise on survivors of personal violence gained during her nearly 30 year career. She holds a bachelor’s degree in gender studies and political science from Eastern Oregon University and a Master of Science and Social Work from Columbia University. From 2021 to 2022, she served on the VA National Domestic Violence Task Force. The secretary’s task force on inclusion, diversity, equity and access. The VA Sexual Assault Prevention Committee and the National Gender Policy Council Work Group. Her book, *[Broken in the Stronger Places: From Resilience to Resourcefulness](https://amzn.to/4fYbOPa)* is a memoir that spends her life from joining the military through her exit from the VA and the one year solo healing road trip that followed. We are talking about the lack of emotional abuse support groups online or support in general. Welcome, Elizabeth. **Elizabeth:** Thank you so much. I appreciate you having me here, Anne. **Anne:** Were you in the military before you became a domestic violence expert? **Elizabeth:** Yes, I was in the military. It was post Vietnam. They had done away with the draft. And there had been a lot of changes. Women have served since the American Revolution. But many people are unaware, for a long time only 2% of the military could be women, and they couldn’t be officers. There was a lot they couldn’t do. For black women, it was even worse. WASPs were the Women’s Air Service Pilots. ## SERVICE WOMEN’S FIGHT FOR SUPPORT FROM THE MILITARY **Anne:** They are so inspiring, by the way. I encourage everyone to look them up. **Elizabeth:** Oh, it was amazing. Mostly white, but there were some Japanese women and there was one, indigenous woman. I don’t think black women were allowed. Because there was so much discrimination. **Anne:** Mm hmm, There were no emotional abuse support groups online. **Elizabeth:** So these women entered and they received special training so it was a big deal. The WASPs, flew 60 million miles. They flew into danger, all that stuff. When the war ended, the military sent women home without so much as a benefit or anything. There were a number of women who died in service and their family members were responsible for paying the money to send them home from England or wherever they were. The military considered women not real military members. That was the status of women. So in 1948, Truman signed the Women Armed Forces Integration Act, post World War II. It gave women full-time permanent status in the military. The exception prior to that act was that a certain number of nurses could remain ’cause they needed medical. And so as time went on, it began increasing. After the draft ended, volunteerism among men decreased, and they were having trouble staffing up the military. There were the WACs, Women’s Army Corps. The Navy informally called women WAVES. They had separate training. Their training included things like how to wear makeup. ## WE HAVE TO DO BETTER FOR WOMEN **Elizabeth:** Then they disbanded in 1977. Jimmy Carter, being a feminist, said, “We have to do better.” The military started to send women to co-ed basic training at Fort Jackson, South Carolina. I was in the second wave of women to go through co-ed. **Anne:** I feel honored to talk to you right now. This is a huge deal, and I am so proud of you. Helping women who had no emotional abuse support groups online or any other support. **Elizabeth:** Thank you. So, I talk about this in my book. We’re all a bunch of 18 and 19 year olds. You start at the welcome center, and then you get on the bus, and they take you to the company where you do your basic training. There’s camaraderie, we’re all joking and laughing, and being a bunch of teenage boys and girls. And we got off the bus and hustled into a formation, which was ragged as hell. ‘Cause we didn’t know what it was. The drill sergeants say to us, “This is your family now.” There were five male drill sergeants. “We help each other out.” They said, “Look to your front, look to your back, look to your left, look to your right. These are your brothers and sisters. They will always be there for you. They will always have your back.” And in the next breath, literally they said, “And for you females out there understand that we think there is no place in this man’s army for girls. And we’re gonna spend the next eight weeks showing you just how much we mean that. If we have anything to do with it, not one of y’all will make it through. ## EMOTIONAL ABUSE SUPPORT GROUPS ONLINE: ADDRESSING MISOGYNISTIC CULTURE **Elizabeth:** Being in the field you’re in, you understand how that sets a culture. It set the tone to the men that had just been our buddies. Suddenly, we were othered and heard mumbles of, “Yeah, you don’t belong here, and we don’t have to be nice to you.” The drill sergeants just gave permission.” When I wrote the book, it occurred to me that what they did was set the direction of our future. Sexual harassment, you’re going to experience it and we don’t give a damn. So just deal with it. We’re gonna encourage it so that you’ll leave. There were no resources, no emotional abuse support groups online. Throughout basic training, there was a lot of real sexualized, misogynistic stuff that happened. From there, I went on to my training. I was in supply at Fort Lee, Virginia. That was only moderately better. We had more freedom, so we weren’t just confined to being in formation all the time and being with our drill sergeants. We would be walking by, say, a billet full of men. And they would literally hang out the windows and yell obscenities at us. If they were standing on the streets, they would grab their crotches, they would make all the obscene sounds and gestures that you can imagine. ## THE LAW ALLOWED WOMEN TO SERVE, THE CULTURE TRIED TO PUSH THEM OUT **Elizabeth:** That program at the time was a go at your own pace thing. It was a 12 week program, but you could get out anytime you finished. So I finished it six weeks, because I was like, I gotta get the hell outta here. **Anne:** Yeah. **Elizabeth:** Then I was stationed in Kissingen, Germany at Harvey Barracks. I was the first woman in my company, and one of only, maybe not even a hundred on the whole base. It was brutal. It was constant harassment, constantly grabbed, assaulted in various ways. I consider myself lucky. I was one of the few women never raped during her military service. This was ongoing. Every minute of every day I was in uniform on base. **Anne:** I am so sorry. The overall feeling would have to be that my government doesn’t care about me as much as men. **Elizabeth:** That’s the vibe. Yeah, we were only there because the law forced them to have us there. **Anne:** That is so sad. It’s also so awful that the culture would permit people to treat other citizens like that, people who have signed up for service. **Elizabeth:** At that time, Ruth Bader Ginsburg made it possible for pregnant women to remain in the military. Up until that time, if you got pregnant while in the military, legally they could throw you out. Even though you could have a baby while in the military, you couldn’t join the military if you had babies unless you gave up custody. ## THE DOUBLE STANDARDS OF MILITARY POLICY **Anne:** Wow, so no man has to give up custody to join the military, but women do. **Elizabeth:** I said that exactly to the recruiter. And he said, “Oh, they’ve got wives and mothers. We don’t need to worry about them with their children.” **Anne:** That’s crazy. **Elizabeth:** He said that to me. He was such an asshole. So my friend couldn’t join, because she was like, “I’m not giving up my children to join the military. That’s never gonna happen.” We were gonna join the buddy system, so I signed my name on the dotted line. I had no idea, I was 18 years old. **Anne:** I wanna just point out to you that you did the same thing that every other 18-year-old man would do. You’re not any different than any other person who’s joined the military. **Elizabeth:** Thank you. That was my entrance into the military. I didn’t know they could discriminate. I didn’t know all that because I was a young feminist. So I understood discrimination, pay gap, and all of that stuff, even at that age. So I was shocked when I began understanding. **Anne:** Institutional mIsogyny, with no emotional abuse support groups online. **Elizabeth:** That’s exactly right. I stayed in, they tried to push me out, but I said, “No, I know my rights. I get to stay in the military as a pregnant and or single mother.” When you joined, and I think it’s the same way today, it was a six year enlistment. So it could be any combination of six. It could be a full six years active duty, it could be three years active, three years inactive, two years, whatever that combination was. ## EMOTIONAL ABUSE SUPPORT GROUPS ONLINE: I GOT A SHELTER FUNDED **Elizabeth:** They had told me when I joined, okay, you’re active duty for three years, and then you have to join the reserves. Stay at the reserves for three years when you get out. They told me when I left, “You’re a hundred percent done. We don’t want you, you can’t ever rejoin.” And today women can rejoin. Then a friend asked me to join the board of the local Domestic Violence Crisis Intervention Center. And that started my career in the field of domestic violence and sexual assaults. I eventually became the director, and there was a lot going on around that. OJ Simpson had killed Denise Brown and Ron Goldman. When something national like that happens, it instills fear in every survivor and victim across the country. There are now emotional abuse support groups online at BTR. No matter how long they’ve been separated from their abusive partner, we were dealing with that. I got a shelter funded, and eventually I got my bachelor’s degree in gender studies and political science. I expanded my vision and my work. So I did community safety. I did gender specific services, for most of my career. The government had a huge budgetary crisis. All my contracts were with government agencies. They all got canceled ’cause they were all about domestic violence, sexual assault, and gender specific sources. That was deemed unimportant, and that’s when I focused on women veterans. So all the time before that, I had focused on communities, civilian women. ## THE SECONDARY TRAUMA OF INSTITUTIONAL BETRAYAL **Elizabeth:** Although looking back, I know that there were probably some women veterans I was helping, and I just didn’t realize, ’cause I didn’t talk about being a veteran. Women then didn’t talk about being a veteran, and many still don’t today. Everything I did was on women veterans and sexual assault in the military. So when you’ve had experiences of harassment, assault, and or rape in the military that cause trauma. They call it military sexual trauma. And I didn’t learn until years later that I had that. **Anne:** I’m so sorry for everything you’ve been through. And also so proud of you that you kept putting one foot in front of the other, you kept providing for yourself and your family. Um, with all your experience, can you talk about just some overall themes that you see in relation to domestic violence in general, perhaps specifically in the military, but perhaps more like culturally? Because I think the military has its own culture, obviously, but it’s also sort of indicative of the overall culture. So maybe you could talk about how those all intersect. And how emotional abuse support groups online could help. **Elizabeth:** That is so true, the difference is that when their partner assaults them, or someone in the military assaults them. They also face extreme institutional betrayal. We know that women are sexually harassed in their work places, and Anita Hill brought that to light. They don’t talk about it because of so much fear. Women in the military, even if they talk about it, it’s like tough We have to stay. ## THE MINDSET OF A MISOGYNISTIC CULTURE **Elizabeth:** I complained about it multiple times. They forced me to remain there to work and deal with this on my own. Nobody at my company cared except for my platoon sergeant, but he was never around. The leaders in my workspace didn’t care. They would laugh it off. So there was no one, no one who cared. Women face that even in today’s military. And men are also sexually assaulted. But as you and I know, we will not stop assault against men until we do something about the misogynistic culture that drives and promotes sexual assault and harassment against women. We know that when women are raped or sexually assaulted they’re called feminine pejoratives, bitch, pussy, slut. These are the terms used against men, because they don’t meet that toxic male culture standard. **Anne:** It’s not their fault. In the minds of the abusers, if these men weren’t feminine, then they wouldn’t have been assaulted. Because that doesn’t happen to real men. **Elizabeth:** That’s exactly right. When men in the military talk about being sexually assaulted, they refer to it as hazing. They lessen that, because they’re also called gay or homosexual as an insult. There’s a lot of fear for men. Around that fear for women is that for years, women who were sexually assaulted received dishonorable discharges. They were charged with adultery. And that only ended a few years ago. ## THEY GET A WHOLE HOSPITAL AND I GET A JANITOR’S CLOSET **Anne:** Yeah, I can imagine the difference in your story if you showed up at basic training and they said, look to your right, look to your left. You’re all in the same family. We treat everyone with respect, end of story. What a difference that would make from the top. Everyone in our military is a human being who deserves respect. Everyone in our country is a human being. We are tasked with the safety of our country, which includes all citizens. **Elizabeth:** Yes, we were less likely to get benefits to have our claims approved. The first time I was at the Boise VA, which is one of the best in the nation, it was all very male. They said to me, “Come in for your first appointment, so we can get a baseline, third floor.” And I said, okay. So I go in and take the elevator up to the third floor. And the door opened. I look out and there’s mops, brooms, and buffers. It’s janitorial accoutrement. I was standing there holding the door open. I could see a woman down the hall at a desk. And by this time it’s making this obnoxious elevator, binging sound. She said, “Miss, can I help you?” And I said, “Yeah, I think I have the wrong third floor.” She said, “What are you looking for?” And I said, “I’m looking for women’s help. They said, it’s on the third floor.” And she said, “Yes, ma’am, that’s us.” I just kept standing there and I said, “So just let me make sure I get this right. I served in the same military as the men and they get an entire freaking hospital and I get the janitor’s closet?” She said, “Yes, ma’am. I’m very sorry.” ## EMOTIONAL ABUSE SUPPORT GROUPS ONLINE: CREATING POLICIES TO SUPPORT WOMEN **Elizabeth:** We’re laying on a table with our legs in the stirrups. With nothing but a curtain separating us from the janitorial stuff going on in the hallway. And, now there are women’s health clinics in all VAs. It’s so much better. What I always say to women veterans is try it. If I had walked away from the VA that day, I would’ve missed some good care. They passed this public law, which mandated the Center for Women Veterans be opened. And that they focus on policy and care just for women. There are 10 directives and two mandates in that law. And that’s what they’re supposed to follow, hard stop. I was recruited to join the Center for Women Veterans because of the work I had done. So I moved to DC, joined the VA, and everything was going great. I had a wonderful director. We got things done. She had served under four presidents, and she was a phenomenal director and cared deeply about women veterans. And making sure that we were doing the right thing and doing many initiatives. It was fabulous. We worked with all women veterans, not just women who were survivors and victims, right. But those cases generally came to my desk. When women complained or contacted VA, I handled them. And then, things changed. People hired had no knowledge of the VA, of government, of budgeting, of any of that stuff. It became clear to me that my new director was uninterested in following the mandates and directives set under the public law that stood up the Center for Women Veterans. ## WHEN LEADERS REFUSE TO ENFORCE LAWS THAT SUPPORT WOMEN **Elizabeth:** A woman was sexually assaulted at a VA by her doctor, and all she wanted was the VA to stop him from working there. At the time, my director said it is VA policy to maintain the employment of medical providers accused of sexual assault, as long as they still hold a medical license in that state. I lost my mind and said to my director, “This policy must be disbanded.” And she said, “There’s nothing I can do about it.” This woman had no emotional abuse support groups online to access. I said, “It’s literally your job to do something about this. The public law demands you do something about this. It’s your mandate.” And she refused. Then there was a woman who, her story of all the thousands of stories I’ve heard, Anne, hers was the worst. It was more brutal than my mind could even comprehend. And I spent decades speaking to women and being empathetic, and I crumbled when it was done. The VA then betrayed and abused her. The next day. I was getting ready for work and sitting on my bed and crying. I texted my boss and said, “I’m not working today.” She said, “Are you okay?” I said, “No, and I will never be okay again.” My psychologist said, “The fact that you got your own sexual trauma and spent 30 years in this field is nothing short of phenomenal that you continue to do this work despite your own trauma. You can never again hear another story. You’re a hundred percent done with this field. It’s to your own mental health detriment if you continue.” ## ACKNOWLEDGING RE-TRAUMATIZATION **Anne:** Wow, that’s intense. **Elizabeth:** Kintsugi, the art, where they repair fine porcelain with gold. In the early nineties, the field of mental health developed a theory around that. What they say with Kintsugi is that it is stronger in its broken places because of the lacquer and the gold powder added. And so the field of mental health took that up and said, you too can be stronger in your broken places if you go through the CBT and the therapy and the da da da da da. And during my work, I understood the falsity of that metaphor and why it doesn’t work. Because they don’t acknowledge retraumatization. A lot of women who’ve read my book say, both veteran and non-veteran, it’s like you told my story. I feel so connected. One of the first women said, ” I had been in therapy, and something happened recently, and I came absolutely undone.” We women blame ourselves for everything. I’m a loser. I can’t even do therapy right. I’m a bad mother, I’m a bad this, I suck at that. So we’re always happy to take that blame on ’cause that’s what the culture does for us. It’s on the woman. It’s always on the woman. For the general population, understand that our words matter, that headlines matter. That when we say things like, “Why didn’t she just leave? Why did she stay?” We’re putting the onus on her. What we need to do is shift that, turn that around. ## CHANGING THE WAY WE TALK ABOUT EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Elizabeth:** So the next time, say, “Why did he do that? Why was he allowed to get away with that?” Because for decades, we aren’t any better in that field. We keep putting it on the women to escape, to change to dah, dah, dah, dah. We need to put it on the people doing the deed. Healing is not an event, it’s a process. And trauma gets inside you and you can heal. You can do better, but be aware of something that most psychologists or therapists never talk about, and that is re-traumatization. Something can happen. We saw that during the OJ Simpson trial. Women across the country were re-traumatized in mass numbers. You’re so confused when that happens, ’cause you’re thinking, I thought I was all better. Don’t beat yourself up, find some help, a group, emotional abuse support groups online. You deserve to be healed and happy. **Anne:** Yes, those layers of trauma, not that the trauma isn’t compounding, but it’s easier for us to rebound, gain strength, if we have emotional safety in our own immediate vicinity with the people that care about us. Some have had [intimate images shared w](/distribution-of-intimate-images-without-consent-federal/)ithout consent. I’m so lucky with my children. I said to my son this morning, “I’m just so angry and I’m sorry if I’ve been very, short lately.” And he said, “Oh Mom, you’re amazing. You have such good intentions. We love you. We understand why you would be upset, and it makes sense that you would be. You’re safe with us Mom.” And it just made me feel so good. Not everybody has that, so I wanna acknowledge that. Getting to emotional safety is what our [Group Sessions](/group/) are about. ## WOMEN DESERVE THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS **Anne:** You can start building that as you come out of the experiences you’ve had. I guess you’ve made some close friends who have been through similar things you can relate with that. You can call and be like, can you believe what happened? And you can process it together, and at least you have an immediate safe space. So that’s what women experiencing trauma need. They just need that safe space to process what’s happening with emotional abuse support groups online. **Elizabeth:** Yeah, and having that shared experience, having a group or person with which you have that shared experience really is a positive in your life. Pursue that, because if you’re in a home where you’re not safe, where you don’t feel safe, where you’re afraid to say your words. I know how hard it is. If you’re not safe, you deserve to be and find that safety where you can. **Anne:** Yeah, women deserve the pursuit of happiness just like anyone else. **Elizabeth:** That’s right, perfect. **Anne:** Yep, well thank you so much, Elizabeth, for sharing your story. Thank you for spending time with me today. **Elizabeth:** You’re welcome. Thank you for having me. It’s been a great conversation, Anne, and I appreciate all the work you’re doing. Thank you for giving survivors a space. **Anne:** Thank you. ## FINDING HELP BEFORE YOU KNOW WHAT YOU NEED **Anne:** I met my next guest, Lacey, at a conference. She told me how difficult it was to find emotional abuse support groups online and support before she found **Betrayal Trauma Recovery**. She didn’t know the term betrayal trauma at first. So she didn’t know what to search for, and that matters. When women don’t have the right words, they can’t get the right help. Welcome Lacey. **Lacey:** Hello Anne, thanks for having me. **Anne:** Can you start with how it felt to be searching for help when you didn’t know what you were looking for? All you knew was that your marriage was really confusing. **Lacey:** Initially just friends and maybe counselors and books, I would read them and listen to it, and it didn’t resonate with me. So as I dug further, I started learning words like betrayal trauma. You know, I didn’t even know that’s what I had. So I didn’t know the words I needed to search for. I just started stumbling across things. I had to weed through a lot of things that were not helpful before I could get to the things that were. Even with books they suggested, sometimes you’re just not in a place where you can sit down and read and comprehend a book. Betrayal Trauma Recovery for me was just something consistent, weekly that I could turn on and listen. What you said resonated with me. So I took your advice. It was good for me when I found BTR. It’s a consistent voice of reason that I could turn to. Listening doesn’t take nearly as much brain power as sitting down and studying or something like that. ![Online Emotional Abuse Support Group](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Online-Emotional-Abuse-Support-Group.webp "Online Emotional Abuse Support Group")## PROMOTING BETRAYAL TRAUMA RECOVERY & HELPING OTHERS **Lacey:** You talked about the conference. I wouldn’t have known anything about that if it hadn’t been for [the Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcast](/podcast/) There are not many resources in my area. Even the counselor I’m seeing isn’t trained in this area. She doesn’t know about resources like books and things that you suggest on BTR. I just want to do my best to help other ladies find it quickly, more quickly than I did. It’s great with the podcast, I can go back and re-listen. Before I got on with you, I was listening to a few things. You know, I probably will not have my own podcast or website or anything like that. It’s difficult for me to talk about these things with people in person. I want to do my best to promote you in the best way possible to help other people. **Anne:** I’m grateful for your support. You’ve listened to the podcast since the beginning, and one of the things you mentioned is that you wanted other women to know about Betrayal Trauma Recovery. It covers [things emotional abuse victims need to know](/covert-emotional-abuse/ "things emotional abuse victims need to know"). You talked about how easy it is to help women find us. Just follow the podcast on Spotify or Apple Podcasts by actually clicking the follow button. The more subscribers or followers the podcast has, the more the algorithm shows this podcast to women when they’re searching for help. Like you said, you were searching for things, but you didn’t know to type in betrayal trauma in to Google because you didn’t know what you were searching for, exactly. **Lacey:** Right. **Anne:** Then finally, when you found the word betrayal trauma, you found us, you found Betrayal Trauma Recovery, and our emotional support groups online. ![Emotional Abuse Support Groups Online](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Emotional-Abuse-Support-Groups-Online.webp "Emotional Abuse Support Groups Online")## IMPROVING ONLINE VISIBILITY **Anne:** So as women search around, they search for words like infidelity, cheating, or addiction. Lots of women are searching for narcissism stuff, like [covert narcissist traits](/covert-narcissist-traits/), lying, “How do I help my marriage?” Or [betrayal trauma in relationships.](/betrayal-trauma-in-relationships/ "betrayal trauma in relationships.") It’s rare that a woman with marriage troubles goes immediately to Google and types in betrayal trauma and finds emotional abuse support groups online.. My goal is to help women get this information as soon as possible. Making sure they can find us online is important. The first thing I ask people to do is actually click the follow button, and then to help even more rate the podcast on their podcasting service, or iTunes or Spotify. And that five stars means Google or iTunes starts paying attention to it. So podcasts with a lot of ratings get more visibility. And that’s what we need. There are [examples of misogyny](/examples-of-misogyny/) and how to figure out what is happening. If someone types in infidelity, for example, it’s so much better to find Betrayal Trauma Recovery if you’re searching infidelity. Than finding that a wife causes infidelity, not meeting her husband’s needs. Or a wife not being safe enough for her husband, or something like that. You’ll see things evolving over time with BTR as I learn better ways to describe things. As all of us know, it’s an ever evolving process to describe what we’re feeling and what is happening to us. And so I try to update the website over time and all the materials over time when I have a better way to describe something. ## EMOTIONAL ABUSE SUPPORT GROUPS ONLINE: ENGAGING WITH BETRAYAL TRAUMA RECOVERY ON SOCIAL MEDIA **Anne:** Another way to help other women know about this amazing community is to comment on the btr.org website. Because the way search engines work, the more interaction a website gets, the higher ranks on a search engine. Same thing with Instagram and Facebook, the more comments on each post, the more interaction, the more people see it. That algorithm is like, Hey, this is interesting. And they show it to more people. So if you’ve been grateful for this podcast and want to help get the word out. Going to our [YouTube channel](https://www.youtube.com/@BtrOrg) and commenting on all of our videos, commenting on our posts. We’re on [Instagram at. At btr.org\_.](https://www.instagram.com/btr.org_) And on [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/BetrayalTraumaRecovery), commenting on our posts. We have some wonderful supportive women who are part of the emotional abuse support groups online, take five minutes a day while waiting for carpool. And they go through all of our posts on our social media platforms on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube. And in the comments, they just do an emoji, like a handclap or a 100. Or the celebration emoji. It can just be an emoji. You don’t even have to say anything. That helps the algorithm so much. So if you’ve been putting emojis on our social media posts or writing short comments on our website, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. . That’s the cool part about this podcast. It’s by trauma survivors for trauma survivors. So we can make it whatever we want. ![Do You Have A Safe Person?](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/QgWLaB34xIE/maxresdefault.jpg) ## EXPERIENCING SUPPORT IN PERSON **Anne:** So tell me about your experience being around so many women, like having come from an isolated state of not talking to anyone you felt understood by the emotional abuse support groups online by BTR. **Lacey:** In my town, I didn’t find any groups that I felt comfortable going to. They didn’t focus on my specific need. I had such a hard time finding a counselor. And I felt like they listened, but maybe didn’t get it. I have friends and family that know that I’m separated. And they know that I’m hurting, but still, again, they don’t know the details or maybe how to listen with understanding. Being around all these women, even if their situations weren’t the same, or if they hadn’t experienced the same thing, it just felt like they knew how to react appropriately and the right things to say. It felt so good to talk and not worry about filtering what I was saying or trying to remember what I had already told them, or is this person safe or not? Or when am I going to run into them at the grocery store? You know, or do they know my husband? All these things that are constantly going through your mind when you’re at home and trying to know how to talk to people. None of that was there. And I was able to just talk and share my story, and not feel judged. Sometimes you just want to talk and have somebody listen, and it was a great experience. **Anne:** Yes, it has always been my goal to create the best emotional abuse support group online. I have a podcast, a workshop or even quizzes to help you understand exactly what is happening to you. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## EMOTIONAL ABUSE SUPPORT GROUPS ONLINE: GRATITUDE AND COMMUNITY SUPPORT **Anne:** We do have a [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). To get that abuse quiz, click on the link. There are 19 different types of emotional abuse. I’ll talk about that in another episode. But you can also see what those are and take that quiz. It’s really important to me to have a group at least once a day and multiple times a day. So that you can get support right away that actually helps you get to emotional safety. So many people don’t know what to tell you to do. **Lacey:** I just want to throw out there that I’m sure donating helps continue how y’all are already working on spreading the word. I don’t know, I just want to throw that out there. Because I think everybody should donate, and uh, I want to help you any way I can. **Anne:** We all built Betrayal Trauma Recovery. There’s no way I could have started it without the emotional or financial support of all the women listening, small and large. [Betrayal Trauma Recovery support groups](/group/) are full of amazing women. They are the best emotional abuse support groups online. And knowing that there was someone on the other side of the microphone listening to me, because when I would feel so dark and sad and just be speaking into a microphone in my basement. And there’s no way I could have done it without you and without the coaches. So I’m very, very grateful that this is an organization by trauma survivors of trauma survivors. It’s a community that I’m part of, proud of, and grateful for. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Need Counseling for Cheating Husband? Don't Fall Into This Trap](https://www.btr.org/counseling-for-cheating/) **Published:** October 6, 2026 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Find out why THIS is the most common form of emotional adultery. **Content:** When **counseling for cheating** treats a husband’s betrayal as a marriage issue instead of focusing on his pattern of lying, it can be a soul crushing realization for his wife. Women who’ve been betrayed by their husbands need support that personally understands this truth, like the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery groups](/group/). Here are five things a therapist or counselor may ask you to do, that you’re probably already doing. ## 5 THINGS A THERAPIST MIGHT SUGGEST IN COUNSELING FOR CHEATING, THAT YOU’RE PROBABLY ALREADY DOING ### **1. YOU SHOULD BE MORE SELF-REFLECTIVE** Women who enter into counseling for cheating after discovery of their husband’s betrayal, often say that they’ve spent years wrestling with questions about their own expectations or behaviors in the marriage. Many of them have already been asking if they were “too critical or sensitive,” or how they could have “communicated better.” Husbands who have a pattern of manipulation and lying often use their wife’s willingness to look at her own “faults” as a way to distract her and the therapist from seeing the truth. ### **2. YOUR MARRIAGE CAN’T HEAL IF YOU KEEP** BRINGING UP THE PAST Betrayed wives often want to know more details about their husband’s betrayal or his patterns of behavior after they’ve discovered he has been lying to them and living a double life. It’s a natural part of the healing process. What’s not natural or healthy is for a counselor or a husband to tell a betrayed partner that she needs to “put it in the past” in order for the relationship to move forward. Men who have lived double lives have already benefitted from their wife’s integrity and her decision to give him the benefit of the doubt over and over again. If he wants to move forward in a healed relationship, he should take responsibility for his deception and be willing to answer questions. ### **3. IF THE THERAPIST SUGGESTS YOU LOOK FOR SOLUTIONS “TOGETHER”** Many wives are already the solution-focused, repair department of the family. When there is confusion, they look for a book, a podcast, or a therapist that might help them understand what’s really happening and how to fix it. They’ll schedule the date nights, pray the prayers, make the apologies, and have the conversations with a softer approach. They’ll try to make their home peaceful and emotionally safe for everyone. But, if their husband is lying about cheating, using inappropriate media, emotional affairs, or financial betrayal, even in therapy, then none of the above solutions is going to solve the real problem. His lying. ### **4. COUNSELING FOR CHEATING SUGGESTS YOU RE-COMMIT TO THE MARRIAGE** Most wives lean in and work hard to keep their families together after discovering their husband’s betrayal. But trying harder won’t cure his entitlement. Being more available and more patient won’t cure his dishonesty. Offering more love does not cure his emotional or [spiritual abuse](https://www.btr.org/spiritual-abuse-symptoms/). A wife can pour herself into the marriage until there is almost nothing left of her, and still not fix his motivations for hiding the truth. ### **5. IF THE THERAPIST SUGGESTS THAT YOU SHOULD ASK IMPORTANT QUESTIONS** When things feel off in their marriage most women will ask questions or speak up about odd late nights, mood shifts, secrecy, intimacy problems, and the strange feeling in their gut. But their husbands have used these concerns as another opportunity to gaslight, blame-shift, and undermine her instincts and reality. When a counselor suggests that the betrayed partner should ask more direct questions they’re just adding more pressure on her to mine for truth. The burden of truth and change should rest on the shoulders of the betrayer. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take our free [emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). Key Points From this episode: - **[How Marriage Counseling After Betrayal Misses the Real Issue](#marriage-counseling-betrayal-trauma)** - [**How His Lying Undermines Your Confidence and Emotional** **Safety**](#lying-is-emotional-abuse) - **[Couple Therapy is for People Who Tell The Truth, Not Liars](#liars-manipulate-marriage-counselors)** - **[Moving on After Betrayal is Not as Simple as People Think](#moving-on-after-betrayal)** - **[Is Online Betrayal Actually Cheating?](#is-online-betrayal-cheating)** ## TRANSCRIPT: WHEN COUNSELING FOR CHEATING MAKES HIS CHEATING “OUR PROBLEM” **Anne:** I have Hannah, a member of our community on today’s episode. Welcome, Hannah. **Hannah:** Hi Anne. How are you? **Anne:** Thank you so much for coming on today. Why don’t we start with your story. **Hannah:** Yeah, I am about a year out from finding everything out that changed my life forever. I was married for about 12 years. We had five kids. I had known him most of my life. We were best friends. We’re Christian. I was very active in our church community, and even in high school I was involved in youth work, and I was a huge anti-porn advocate. My husband knew all this about me. We talked about this kind of thing nearly daily, as we’re also raising kids, just like how we protect them from the world. We prayed every day together, and then one day he decided to drop the bomb on me, that he had been lying to me since before we were married, that he had been watching porn, and that he had also had a four year affair with a colleague. So he decided to come clean to me. I was completely blindsided. Over the last year, I’ve been realizing the subtle ways, like he was a very good liar, and I do feel like he had this complete double life. I was really grateful to find *[Betrayal Trauma Recovery,](/podcast/)* because it was the only resource I found online that didn’t make me want to throw my computer or phone across the room. Because everything was very much just talking about my part in it, which to me felt so wrong. ## WHEN COUNSELING FOR CHEATING MISSES EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Hannah:** I knew I wasn’t perfect, what human being is? I knew that throughout our whole marriage, I had been self-reflecting. I had been not keeping score. Anytime we had any kind of conflict, I was all about finding solutions. I was always leaning into our marriage and trying harder. Also when it came to the betrayal, the pornography use. A lot of resources say maybe you didn’t ask, or maybe you were naive. I had asked all the questions. We had all the conversations. I had been checking in all these things, and it was just a lie every time with counseling for cheating. So to be met with what was your part in it? Or anything like that made me angry right from the start. And I just knew that this isn’t something that I contributed to somehow. And at that, *Betrayal Trauma Recovery,* that’s definitely how you frame things. This is abuse. Abuse is one sided. That’s my story in a nutshell. It has been an awful year, and I still most days can’t believe this is my life. That I had this husband, who I thought we were soulmates, best friends. I thought I knew him so well. I’ve been coming to this realization that I could have just gone down to the nearest bar and been like, You sir, you’re attractive. Let’s go get married. And it would’ve been the same outcome. Because I did all the things. We talked about this stuff constantly. I think people think, he was doing this thing and it’s not a big deal. ## FINDING OUT HE HAD BEEN LYING THE WHOLE TIME **Hannah:** Like it was his private life that he kept private. No, you don’t understand the amount of lies, blatant lies, subtle lies, lies of omission, but also the things that we would do together. Like, we sit down to watch a movie. We weren’t like the average couple who’s just oh, put on HBO. We don’t watch HBO, we look up every movie before we watch it, because we’re protecting our marriage, protecting our family. From all the trash out there. Our kids have minimal screen time, they’re not on devices, so that’s exactly the type of thing we’re trying to protect them from. So for him to come out and be like, “Oh yeah, by the way, for our entire marriage, I’ve been watching pornography, and I also had a girlfriend for a huge chunk of our marriage.” **Anne:** Why now? He’s been lying to you the whole time. I’m sure that’s crossed your mind. **Hannah:** Oh, it has. I can tell you what he says versus what I think. **Anne:** Probably a lie, right? Since he is lied about everything else. **Hannah:** A very close friend of mine called me up and told me that she had discovered that her husband had been watching pornography. So I was very upset and obviously like always I went to my husband. And the thing that gets me about that is, it’s not the first time this has happened. I would read some horrible story on the internet, in the communities that I was in. And I’d go to my husband and be like, oh, this poor woman, she just found out she has cervical cancer, ‘Cause her husband cheated on her. ## I WANTED TO LEAVE, BUT COULDN’T **Hannah:** These types of stories. So that alone isn’t enough, because it’s not like it was the first time, but it was someone very close to me. And also close to him. **Anne:** I wonder if, because it was someone really close to you. He thought, well, maybe this is the time to tell her because this other person did it. **Hannah:** So I was like talking to him every evening when he came home from work about this couple. My heart was breaking for them. I was in constant contact with my friend, checking with her, wanting to spend time with her. So I was actually planning to go away that weekend to spend the weekend with her. And then he dropped the bomb on me before I left. **Anne:** Maybe it was to stop you from going. **Hannah:** It could have been. **Anne:** Because, these liars don’t think too much about long-term consequences, or counseling for cheating. **Hannah:** Looking back, something that haunts me a lot is the fact that in those weeks leading up. He asked me, “What would you do if?” I was obviously caught off guard. I mean, excuse me? Are you trying to tell me something? Like, why would you say that? I told him, “I would pack up the kids, and I would go to my mother’s, and you would maybe never see us again.” I didn’t mince words. Funny story, my reaction, I was paralyzed. I couldn’t pack up any kids. I was trashed, laying on the floor, not eating or sleeping, not able to drive a car. In my mind, I wanted to leave, but physically could not. ## WHEN HE USES THE TRUTH TO MANIPULATE YOU **Anne:** I had that same thing where I told my husband that. And then found out I couldn’t do it. I’ve come to believe now. This is 10 years post-divorce, and failed counseling for cheating, that he wanted me to do that. He was like, “Okay, I’m gonna tell her and then she’ll leave.” And because I didn’t. Then, at least in my situation, he was like, “Oh, shoot, now I have to act like I am repenting.” Because he didn’t know what to do when I didn’t do the thing he wanted me to do. Because the same thing, he could have told me a million other times, why did he tell me right then? **Hannah:** There were so many moments when I asked him explicitly. Have you done this? Would you do this? Where I asked to check his phone. I felt like a terrible person. I have this amazing, good, trustworthy husband, and I’m being this paranoid, crazy person. And him being like, sure, of course. But obviously sweating bullets, because he knew that there was a possibility that something could happen. So when he did tell me, I couldn’t drive, I couldn’t sleep, but the next morning I made him drive me to my sister’s house. I said we’re leaving right now. I had all these other health issues at the time that I physically can’t drive. So I think that in his mind he was so deluded, he still thought it was somehow going to be okay. But for me, it was like the whole unraveling of everything. Like any marriage, we’d had our struggles and then to find out that this was going on underneath it all the whole time, for me it was very much a, what’s left? ## I SAW THE SIGNS THAT HE DIDN’T CARE **Hannah:** The only thing I was clinging to in this marriage was that you’re this good, faithful, loyal man who’s trustworthy and honest. And turns out you weren’t even that. And I’ve been making all these excuses. He’s tired, he works so hard. The honeymoon phase is over. This is just marriage. So we’re not crazy in love anymore, but we deeply love each other. That’s what I was thinking. And meanwhile, these were all symptoms that he actually didn’t care. **Anne:** Oh, that’s so heartbreaking. Before you found out, had you been to couple therapy, had you done marriage intensives or counseling for cheating? **Hannah:** There were moments in our marriage where I checked in with him. “I feel like we’re having a lot of petty fights. Are we okay? I feel like you’re ignoring me a lot, like what’s going on?” There were times when I felt like it was getting to the point that, okay, I think we need counseling for cheating. And I said that to him, and I asked for it, and his reaction was, no, absolutely not. That didn’t surprise me, just because I feel like that’s the way both of us were raised. Our parents think it’s good for someone else, but they’re not gonna do it. “We can get through this. We don’t need some professional meddling in our lives.” Then it would be good for a while, now that I’ve reflected on all these years. I can see it more clearly that he would avoid me and treat me poorly. Then if I started to question it, he would love bomb me and make it okay. He would bring me flowers or he would say something to make it feel all better. ## HOW HE BENEFITTED FROM MY WORK ON THE MARRIAGE **Hannah:** I was like relationship low maintenance. I didn’t need him to be Prince Charming all the time. He just had to come home and tell me he loved me and that everything was good, and I just believed him. I would let it go. I thought we went on dates and did things to invest in our marriage, but now that I look back, I planned it, or I nagged you to plan it. And it never was like, “You’re planning these things for me, or for us.” We actually went to marriage retreats to reconnect. But now looking back at that, it’s just cements the betrayal even more. We’re sitting there talking all day about our relationship. And what we can do differently and how we can improve. And you’re just sitting on all this information. These are all the reasons you’re passive aggressive, angry, a little bit volatile, all these things. That explains a lot. I would feel that way too if I was hiding this entire secret life from you. I would be anxious and irritable. **Anne:** Mm-hmm. **Hannah:** We never did any kind of counseling for cheating. I thought it was communication. I think I am a terrible communicator. And I think you need to work on your communication too. I just leaned in, I read books, did different things. The typical marriage advice is, don’t keep score and forgive your spouse. You shouldn’t be dwelling on their faults. That’s the type of thing I was doing. Which now makes me feel like I’m a giver, he’s a taker. It made me a very easy target, constantly giving into the relationship. ## PEOPLE IN HEALTHY RELATIONSHIPS DON’T NEED COUNSELING FOR CHEATING **Anne:** I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately, that people in healthy relationships do that naturally. We know that people aren’t perfect. With a healthy relationship with someone who’s not perfect and we’re not perfect, we know that people make mistakes. We know there’s gonna be communication issues, stuff like that. We don’t have to read a book that tells us that people make mistakes. So the people reading the book, we who married an abusive man. I’m almost like those books should never have been written, because the only people reading them are women who are married to an abusive man. **Hannah:** Oh my goodness, you’re so right. **Anne:** People in healthy relationships don’t read books like that ’cause they don’t need to. They don’t need counseling for cheating, ’cause they already know. Oh, that was just a communication problem. **Hannah:** It makes so much sense. One book I read, it even said in the book, you just need to do this, and this week you should work on giving words of affirmation to your husband. Or plan something for him. And at this point you might be feeling like, what is he doing for me? But don’t reflect on that. And I remember being like, okay, I’m not going to. That was a turning point for me where I cemented into my character, that I am not going to keep score. ## WHY NOT KEEP SCORE? **Hannah:** If this is neglect, he’s not investing in the relationship, he’s not paying attention to you. And the kind of things I thought was when is the last time he held my hand? Why am I always the one reaching out for physical contact? Why is it that every time he touches me, he wants something more? He doesn’t wanna sit next to me. When we’re out in public, he’s far away from me, and he’s okay with that. Why am I always the one feeling like I’m chasing him? That book shouldn’t have been written. **Anne:** No, that’s what I mean. I don’t think people keep score in healthy relationships. They don’t need counseling for cheating. I’m saying this tongue in cheek, but like, why not keep score? What’s wrong with being like, wait a minute, I do all this stuff and he doesn’t. In fact, when it comes to abuse, it’s almost the opposite. Literally, write down these are all the household tasks that I do all the time, and these are the ones that he does. And then just look at that list, see what that looks like. How many hours a day do we have? And if he’s not abusive, you could take that to him and say, you know what? I actually wrote all this down. And look at the disparity between our household tasks. A non-abusive person would be like. Wow, maybe I should stop watching so much football. Where an abusive person would be like, you don’t respect me at my job! What’s wrong with assessing the truth of the situation, which is essentially what they’re saying when they say don’t keep score. They’re basically saying, “Don’t assess what’s really happening.” ## COUPLE THERAPY IS FOR PEOPLE WHO TELL THE TRUTH **Hannah:** Yeah, when you’re on the abuse side of it, what marriage counselors say is all wrong. None of it works. Which is actually why I wrote to BTR, why I wanted to speak to you. What does counseling for cheating look like if you stay with your partner? Because I feel like with that history of abuse, that never goes away. If the person does genuinely change and stops all their abusive behaviors, and then you’re rebuilding trust and in this relationship with someone. How do you approach counseling for cheating in the future? Because it’s unethical. Even if it’s 10 years down the road and you’ve stayed together. For the women staying and are rebuilding their trust. What do you do? **Anne:** Yeah, so couple therapy is for essentially healthy marriages. It’s for two people who tell the truth, genuinely care about each other, have integrity, and make good choices. And they’re having trouble communicating or something. All the marriages I know that are like that, where they genuinely care about each other, where they’re both honest, they would never need to go to couple therapy. So the whole idea of couple therapy now to me is frankly ridiculous. If it were as healthy as it needs to be to go to couple therapy, you wouldn’t ever need to go. **Hannah:** This dynamic seems unethical. The therapist automatically has to side with you. If this was any other kind of abuse, they wouldn’t put you in the same room, and they will have to side with you. So even if you were doing something wrong. They have to look at it through the lens of okay, but you’ve been traumatized. ## IS COUNSELING FOR CHEATING UNETHICAL? **Anne:** They would ethically have to, but I’ve never met a therapist that does in counseling for cheating. The very foundation of it is family systems theory, basically their ethical standards bind them to not see a perpetrator and a victim. If they do, they have to stop doing the therapy. **Hannah:** Right. **Anne:** ‘Cause it’s not ethical. So if they’re not noticing the abuse and doing the therapy, that’s unethical. And then the second they noticed it, which should be right away, but most of them aren’t doing screenings for it. They should quit, but most don’t. So I think all couple therapy is not a good idea, because healthy couples who don’t lie to each other don’t need to go to couple therapy. **Hannah:** Mm. **Anne:** In general. **Hannah:** And that does resonate with me. There’s part of me that’s like individual therapy. **Anne:** Yeah, the problem with individual therapy in this case is that assumes for the victim that something’s wrong with her. Because the purpose of therapy isn’t to fix what’s wrong with someone else. **Hannah:** Mm-hmm. **Anne:** It’s to fix what’s wrong with you. **Hannah:** Yeah. **Anne:** Therapy for an abuse victim depends on the therapist, victims might need skills. We might need confidence. **Hannah:** It is about coping skills. I think I even have a visceral reaction. It’s like when someone loses an arm, it doesn’t grow back. You just learn to cope with it. You’re not healed from it, really. And I feel like that’s how I see my life now. Talking to many people who have experienced this, it stays with you for life. ## MOVING ON FROM CHEATING IS NOT AS SIMPLE AS PEOPLE THINK **Hannah:** It’s a scar. You don’t forget it. You don’t have this magical I don’t remember anymore. That doesn’t happen. And so I guess for me it’s like for the women who are staying, how do you even frame that? For me personally, I am separated from my husband, we’re not divorced. I’m still trying to make a decision. I don’t wanna be that person who strings him along or is in limbo for years and years, but we have five kids, he’s gonna be in my life, permanently, whether I want him or not. So I feel like he trapped me there. But there are women who choose to stay. And when I look at that, it’s like there’s always this [dynamic of abuser ](/how-do-i-know-if-its-abuse/)and victim. Even if all the abuse stops, it’s like that’s still part of your history. So how do you deal with that moving forward? Because even therapists who talk about if you decide to stay, then you have to work on yourself. Which like you said, what am I working on? What’s wrong with me? **Anne:** Nothing’s wrong with you. **Hannah:** You have to commit to the marriage, and you have to stop ruminating, stop bringing up the past, be all in. That language used in counseling for cheating obviously deeply bothers me, because I’m not choosing to remember this. First of all, it’s like when people say you’re ruminating, no. It’s not even once or twice a day I get this flashback moment. It’s like from the moment I wake up, every thing reminds me all day long. So it’s on a loop all day long. ‘Cause this has been my life. So it’s not like I’m choosing to hold it against him. It’s just, it’s our life. ## MAKING A DECISION TO GO OR STAY WHEN IN COUNSELING FOR CHEATING **Anne:** Also that’s just not true. Did they tell him, “Well, if you’re gonna be married, you have to stop looking at pornography and lying to her.” And did he do it anyway during counseling for cheating? Yeah, he did. So you can feel the way you feel. You can not be committed. When I say not to be committed, I don’t mean to cheat on him. I don’t mean that, but I just mean you can be like, yeah, I’m married to him, but I don’t like him and I’m not committed to him as a person. You could still legit do that. So anybody who’s saying, if you’re gonna [stay married to him](/should-you-stay-married-after-infidelity/), then you have to do this and this and this. That’s not true. **Hannah:** For me, I’m just thinking about a dynamic of I know all this, but objectively, when I hadn’t had this experience. How I would’ve thought about it. If you’re choosing to stay in a marriage. If he is genuinely choosing to change, be a good person, I want that. The world does not need another person like him. Good, great, that would be awesome. I don’t know about my personal ability to believe him. I guess that’s what I’m still trying to work out. But I do know that when I’m trying to have empathy and sit in his shoes. And humanize him. Because obviously that’s very difficult for me at this point. He does need to, from a Christian perspective, forgive himself, see himself as a child of God, all these things to have a true conversion. However, you wanna phrase it if you’re not Christian, genuinely change. I feel like we’re so incompatible now. ## FORGIVENESS DOESN’T MEAN RESTORATION OF THE MARRIAGE **Hannah:** If I’m staying, my needs and what’s going on in my head all day are exactly the opposite of someone who is trying to love themselves and see themselves as a child of God and needs a cheerleader. Obviously, I’m not capable of doing that, and I’m not going to do that. I don’t think any woman should. I am the survivor over here, and he’s the one who cheated. I’m the loyal person who can’t even wrap my head around any of the things he’s done, because I loved him so deeply. He didn’t love me at all. And to move forward in a marriage like that. How do you move past, that feels like it’s been thrown off forever. That doesn’t come back. **Anne:** However you want, I think is the answer. And you also don’t have to, you can stay married and not move past it. **Hannah:** Mm-hmm. **Anne:** There is no right answer. And I think that’s the hard thing for everybody, because the right answer has to be that you have to forgive me and start sleeping in the same bed. **Hannah:** Mm-hmm. **Anne:** Well, that’s just more manipulation and more lies, ’cause that’s not true. You can be married and not sleep in the same bed, not live in the same house. There’s like all of these options out there. **Hannah:** Mm-hmm. **Anne:** You can do literally whatever you want, but the hard part of it is having the confidence to do what you wanna do. ## FINDING CLARITY ABOUT WHAT’S REALLY HAPPENING **Anne:** Rather than listening to someone who tells you, well, if you’re gonna do this, then you have to do it this way. And I think that’s where a lot of us get tripped up in counseling for cheating. **Hannah:** I did the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop](/clarity/). I got the workbook and worked through. It was very helpful, especially recognizing gaslighting. I think I was a frog in the boiling water. You would hear about all these other people who’ll stay through abuse. How will you do that? Now when I reflect, how is that me? I saw him as this person I’ve known my whole life. So when he would say things, then he’d say, well, I didn’t mean it. And I believed him, it felt genuine to me. That’s just him. That’s just us. He is just joking. He doesn’t mean it that way. And he does love me. It didn’t feel that bad to me when it was happening. Even though the logic, hang on a second, you’re just joking. What part of that is funny? I don’t think you’d speak to a colleague this way. Or find myself saying things like, you just changed your story. What is happening here? **Anne:** The “excuse or the reason” doesn’t happen until after we call them out on it. So they say something, we call ’em out. Then they say it’s a joke. They don’t say, I’m gonna tell a joke. I know it might hurt your feelings, but I just thought of this. It’s funny, I actually don’t mean it. Are you ready? ’cause I think you might think it’s funny too, and then they say it. No, that would be like someone who’s aware of our feelings, who knows us well. ## THERE WAS ALWAYS A GOOD EXPLANATION IN COUNSELING FOR CHEATING **Anne:** I think things like that about my kids sometimes I’m like, oh my word. This would be so funny to say right now. So I’ll prepare my children like, Hey, I wanna say this joke. It’s not meant to hurt your feelings. And they laugh and think it’s funny. But that’s different than saying something. And then if you didn’t call him out, if you didn’t say, Hey, that hurt my feelings. Or if you didn’t say, Hey, wait, a colleague wouldn’t say that. He just goes about his day? The only time he says, oh, it’s a joke, or, oh, I didn’t mean it that way, was after you call him out on it. **Hannah:** I’d be like, “oh, that makes sense, because I don’t wanna believe you could ever actually be hurtful and think of me that way.” There were moments throughout our relationship where I would question like oh, you’re talking down to me. There was always a good explanation. So when I did the workshop, that was very eye-opening, I saw the patterns of behavior. It took really stepping back from it because I just believed he didn’t mean it that way. But obviously there are certain words and phrases, no one else uses it any other way. That was eye-opening. My kids are getting older. A year has passed, and what am I supposed to do with my life? What does God want me to do with my life? What about my children? What’s best for them? These are questions that I find are very circular. I can answer them all. ## THE PERSON I THOUGHT I WAS MARRIED TO NEVER EXISTED **Hannah:** Obviously, God wouldn’t want anything bad for me. What’s best for me and what keeps me safe is best for my children. I do know that. **Anne:** We know God wants you to be safe . Not knowing what the specifics of that are, is okay. **Hannah:** I don’t think anyone is like calling me up and pressuring me or anything like that. But people in your community check in, they ask how are you and you’re Chuck? And they’re asking if we’re back together yet. Or have we been to counseling for cheating? I think there’s always that kind of pressure. I have been realizing that it is mostly my own view. Because ultimately, I don’t know what other people think. I don’t know what actually goes on in their brains. I just know what I think they think and what I think they think often is how I see the world. Even when this first happened, I knew I would tell me to leave. I knew that pretty much instantly, because I’ve had so many conversations with different people. My own parents were divorced. My dad married his affair partner. I wanted to avoid divorce, I did everything to find a good guy, looked out for all the warning signs, or so I thought. It seems like I am living the worst version of life possible, the worst nightmare come true. And the acceptance of living every day grieving the fact that this person I thought I was married to never existed. And the man that’s before me now is this person I don’t even know. I don’t even recognize. It’s hard to reconcile that this is the guy who’s made all these choices. ## ONCE A CHEATER, ALWAYS A CHEATER? **Hannah:** Part of that for me is once a cheater, always a cheater. People say this. It’s not that I believe he can’t change or won’t change, or even that he’s going to do it again. That resonates with me. The once that cheater always cheater. Not just because of the stigma, but because to me, it’s the same thing as a murderer. I know that sounds extreme, but even if you just killed the one guy, we’re not gonna stop calling you a murderer. Like it has that impact on people’s lives, it changes how we see you to the point where you just earned yourself a new name. It’s the type of thing that doesn’t go away. We as a society try to rehabilitate these people. But if you’re the person who knew that person who did that, they’re a murderer in your mind, just because of how it changed your view. You didn’t know they had the capacity to do that thing, and now that you know that you can’t unknown that even if they never do it again. **Anne:** [It’s a character issue](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_J87qb2-S4). There are a lot of people in this world who never do that, like ever. **Hannah:** Exactly. **Anne:** I’ve never cheated on my husband or lied him for seven years. Good people, when they’re making good decisions, they never do that. And shouldn’t need counseling for cheating. ## AN EBOLA ANALOGY FOR COUNSELING FOR CHEATING **Anne:** I fully believe that people can change with or without counseling for cheating. Maybe that is not the right thing for someone who is an abuse advocate to say, but I just believe it in my bones. I can’t not believe it. The way that I view it is more like, I don’t know if you’ve heard my Ebola analogy. My analogy is Ebola is a thing that you can get treatment for and that you can heal from. But nobody would say hey, move in with this person, or sleep in the same bed with a person who has Ebola, ever, ever, ever. That person’s literally gonna be isolated until they legit do not have Ebola anymore and so I think that that’s the way I think of it. Is that if they have a little bit of Ebola. I’m not going to be around them. So like my ex for example, he still lies. If he didn’t, he would do some things differently. Like there’s some things that he would be doing with our children that I would be able to see with my own eyeballs. He pays zero and when I say zero I mean legit zero child support, zero alimony, zero things for our children. His relationship with them stinks. The way that he interacts with them stinks. So I can see he still has Ebola right now. So it’s not like I’m gonna be like, oh I can hang out with you now. **Hannah:** So I guess the limitations for myself are that like everyone thought he was a great father, a great husband, myself included. And he was involved and he did do all the things. Like we prayed together every day. **Anne:** So did we. ## THE CRUX OF THE ISSUE IS THE CHOICES HE MADE **Hannah:** Can’t tell that he had Ebola in this case. It’s like maybe he has Ebola and he’s just hiding it very well. **Anne:** Yeah. I love your point about the murderer. It’s okay to be like, you know what? I don’t really wanna be with someone who’s murdered somebody. So if you were dating someone new, And you said I don’t really want to be with someone who lied to their wife for 4 years and had an affair. And used pornography the whole time That would also apply to him. That’s also fine to say. So just because people can change doesn’t mean that you owe them anything. It doesn’t mean you have to stick around. It doesn’t mean any of that. **Hannah:** Yeah, exactly. The the crux of the issue for me is the choices you’ve made and even if those are in the past. That does bring it back to the marriage counseling for cheating thing. There’s no timeline for these things so you might be rebuilding trust for the next 40 years or till you die. Obviously some people are going to be like I’m not here for that, that’s too hard. When someone has broken your trust so deeply you might always have that catch in your gut, oh, what if? **Anne:** It might not even be rebuilding either, it might all be manipulation. This question of are they still lying or not? Even if they’re not can I view them differently now? All of that is hard to process. And there is no right answer and that’s also the hard thing. It would be much easier to be like, if this is here and this is here and this is there then this what I should do. ## EVERYBODY’S SITUATION IS DIFFERENT **Anne:** Nothing that we do we do at BTR is like that counseling for cheating. Because everybody’s situation is different. Everybody has a different feeling for what they want to do with their life. The only thing I care about is that women know what emotional safety is and that’s their top priority. And they’re working toward that in whatever form that takes for them. The other thing I really care about is that women are living their own life. There is a part in the workshop that I love. That’s like what are your dreams, what are your goals? What do you want to do with your life? Knowing that it literally is your one life. When you’re with someone who’s lying to it really feels like your life, my life is on hold. Helping women in whatever way overcome that so that they can start building the life that they want to live. **Hannah:** Yes, It’s helpful obviously hearing other people’s stories and trying to work through. I do recognize that everything I’m going through now is through this somewhat narrow lens of my own experience. Some people feel a lot differently, because their experience was different. It’s not a one size fits all. I was very active in the community and obviously it blind-sided me, just having to take time off from all the things I was involved in. I told him, I’m not explaining this to anyone. If you wanna be accountable, if you wanna prove yourself, go ahead I don’t care. I’m not policing you, I’m not doing anything. I’m just gonna take a step back from everything. I didn’t want to be the person checking his phone. ‘ Cause in my mind there’s no point. ## I CAN’T CONTROL YOU IN COUNSELING FOR CHEATING **Hannah:** I can’t control you. You hid this so well for so long. You were already pretending to be open and transparent. Also you already let me go through your phone you already pretended like you had nothing to hide. So with his job, he travels. I knew where you were before cause you were where you said you were I just didn’t know you were with someone. You could have a whole second family and I wouldn’t know. There is no point in me trying. He said he genuinely wanted to change, that he didn’t want to be that person anymore. He’s like, I don’t deserve to be with you. I don’t know. **Anne:** I know that could either be true or it could be manipulation. In your case, the way that you’re feeling right now, for you, it doesn’t matter and the reason I’m saying that is because even if he is telling the truth you can still make different decisions. Just because he told the truth doesn’t mean that you owe him something. Or that you have to go to counseling for cheating. As a Christian myself, in the scriptures over and over it talks about forgiveness in the context of debt. That’s what Jesus is talking about, He’s like forgive the people indebted to you so that you’re not stressed out all the time, By like hey you owe me money, you owe me money. If you forgive the debt they can go on their way and you never have to see them again. He owes you a good marriage. If you forgive him, you could rip up the contract and be like, I’m [forgiving](/the-truth-about-forgiving-abuse/) you of the debt that you owe me of a good marriage and we can move apart. ## THE GOOD NEWS **Anne:** In the scriptures forgiveness is a way of moving away from someone, not toward them. So I think it’s weird that so many Christians have interpreted it that way when it’s continually used in the context of debt. There’s just different ways of processing it and you will figure it out. You’ve got a good head on your shoulders and whatever the right thing is for you. You will do it. That’s the good news. **Hannah:** Well, thank you. **Anne:** Well, you are awesome. Thank you so much for spending time with me to talk about cheating and counseling for cheating today, Hannah. **Hannah:** Thank you for having me. It’s been really helpful And I hope that this conversation helps other women who come and find your channel. I know that your channel has been really helpful for me. It’s been wonderful meeting you and talking to you. So thanks for everything you do, Anne. **Anne:** Thank you. ## IS ONLINE BETRAYAL CHEATING? **Anne:** And now you’re gonna be introduced to my mom. The first time I aired this, women were like, “I love your mom. She’s awesome.” And I love her too. So a lot of women wonder if their husband is “just” looking at inappropriate media online is that cheating and do we need counseling for cheating? I think it is, and my mom thinks it is. In fact, the word we use is adultery. And so here’s a conversation with my mom about why a husband secretly using inappropriate media online is actually, and technically adultery. Some [husband’s actually secretly film](/if-your-husband-filmed-you-with-a-hidden-camera/) their wives. My mom is joining me today because lately she’s been on a soap box, an awesome soap box. That we should talk more about how inappropriate media isn’t just viewing videos, or pictures. It almost always involves self-pleasure. It involves the bonding chemicals that you release during intercourse. I have a section of this in my book that will be coming out soon, about how masturbation is always part of the equation. ## COUNSELING FOR CHEATING? IT’S CHEATING BECAUSE OF WHAT HE’S ACTUALLY DOING **Anne:** Can you explain why you think that instead of calling it what we normally do, we should just say virtual sex? **Mom:** Well, the reason I thought it’s important is because a lot of the world doesn’t think it involves anything else other than just looking. But when they look at those pictures, there are real women who had their picture taken. They’re somebody’s mom, they’re somebody’s daughter, somebody’s sister. They are real women. The other thought I had is that, usually in connection with the it, men masturbate. Just like Anne said at the opening, that involves the same chemicals. The same hormonal response that a man would have with a live woman. So, I just felt instead of everybody saying, well, avoid exploitative media, blah, blah, blah. You need to call it virtual sex. Because that’s what it is. Back when I was younger, many men used phone sex. That’s what they called it, phone sex. They would call on the phone, it was a real woman, and she was responding in real time. Of course, he would be masturbating at the same time. So that was where I came from. There wasn’t talk about counseling for cheating. ## WHAT SCRIPTURE SAYS ABOUT ONLINE BETRAYAL **Mom:** And then also the quote in Matthew, I think it’s in chapter 5, and I believe it’s verse 28, where it says, If a man lusts after a woman, he has already committed adultery in his heart. That isn’t the focus in counseling for cheating. **Anne:** Many people don’t think that it’s adultery. But if you combine it with masturbation to create a sexual experience that someone’s having or performing with another person or thing. In this case, with a virtual scenario, they are actually having sex with a computer. **Mom:** Yeah, you wouldn’t say computer. That conjures up all kinds of other issues, but no, I mean … **Anne:** It’s not just a picture though. it’s a video. **Mom:** A video of a real person, yes. They’re just providing their own physical stimulation. ## ONLINE BETRAYAL IS ADULTERY **Anne:** Through the masturbation part. My Mom’s idea, and I liked it, is for all of us rather than saying pornography is to say virtual sex all the time. Which is gonna be hard because everyone says pornography. But I’ve started saying it, and it’s actually been kind of cool. Like the responses I’ve received from the few people I’ve said it to so far. That virtual sex is adultery. And what includes virtual sex isn’t just a virtual reality, like goggles that you would wear. But actually viewing anything and masturbating is virtual sex. That’s what it is. Why do you think people think it’s not adultery? **Mom:** I think they have in mind that it’s just this innocent thing. On the man’s part, I guess I should say, but it doesn’t involve a real person in real time. But these women, many of them, are either sex trafficked. Or forced into doing this by virtue of drug abuse or slavery. **Anne:** Regardless of how they got there. **Mom:** Right. **Anne:** They’re a real person. **Mom:** Yes, they are a real person. **Anne:** And the man still has real, actual sex with that person. That he does not know, that has no name, that’s on the film. The other thing is that he actually has real sex with himself. ## HOW HE HIDES HIS ONLINE BETRAYAL IN COUNSELING FOR CHEATING **Mom:** Maybe I’m wrong, maybe when people hear that he just uses this stuff all the time, they don’t view it as innocent, just looking at a picture type of thing. **Anne:** Or a video. **Mom:** Or a video, yeah. But I think, this is my soap box here, it really is virtual sex. And we should call it what it really is, so that there’s no confusion about it. **Anne:** When you think of a man sitting in front of a computer or his phone. Just looking at it. **Anne:** People do not envision him looking at their phone or computer while masturbating. Because who wants to think about that? **Mom:** Yeah. **Anne:** No one. **Mom:** Yeah, it’s too awkward, it’s too uncomfortable. Many people have trouble even saying the word masturbation. **Anne:** Right **Mom:** It’s not a comfortable thing. **Anne:** No, so it makes sense that when you say it, that’s what people envision. That they’re looking at their phone or computer. **Mom:** Many people in the world, me not being one of them, think masturbation is fine. So, that’s the other issue. It’s not just that we don’t see them as maybe not having sex. But they don’t view that as “sex” when it really is. It involves the same hormones, the same body responses. **Anne:** They’re having sex with themselves. **Mom:** Yes. ## RELIGIOUS PERSPECTIVES ABOUT ONLINE BETRAYAL **Anne:** We want to know what you think about this. We would welcome your comments. If you relate, comment below. Do you think it’s adultery and why? **Mom:** When it involves someone in a committed relationship. **Anne:** If they’re not in a committed relationship, is it fornication? Yes. In my opinion. If you are a religious person and believe in the commandments and law of chastity, then it would be fornication. It’s either fornication or adultery, but in neither of those cases, in my opinion. Is it okay. Maybe you disagree. We’d love to hear your thoughts on it and counseling for cheating. Again If you relate, comment below. We’d also like you to share this on social media, see what other people think. You’re going to get a lot of people who think it’s crazy, and that’s okay. But that’s what we’re here for. So many people don’t know [what is exploitative](/what-is-exploitative/). To validate women who feel this way, and let you know that if you do feel this way, we feel the same way too. You’re in good company. **Mom:** Or bad company. **Anne:** Or you’re in very bad company. We’re such an evil influence. **Mom:** Dangerous. **Anne:** I know. We’re laughing because people call my ideas dangerous a lot of the time. So, it’s so dangerous to say that exploitative media is adultery. Woo! When Christ himself said it. In what, Matthew? **Mom:** Matthew chapter 5. **Anne:** I love my Mom. ## WHAT WE’VE LEARNED ABOUT ONLINE AND EMOTIONAL BETRAYAL **Anne:** I’m super grateful that she came on today, and I love her opinion that we should start saying virtual sex. If you agree with our stance, that it’s adultery. And [is lying emotional abuse?](/is-lying-emotional-abuse/) If you agree with us, maybe because your husband does this with women online, and you need support, and you totally get it. You know what we’re talking about. We’re here for you. There are many so-called [betrayal trauma](/books/) therapists, coaches or groups out there. But they don’t approach using exploitative media or infidelity, as an abuse issue. Or they try to “treat” both the abuser and the victim in the same setting, which is unethical. BTR groups sessions are different. We get it. We never victim blame, and we are here to support you. So if you relate to anything we said in this episode, check out our [daily support group schedule](/group/). We’d love to see you in a group session today. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [MY HUSBAND HATES ME: HIDDEN ABUSE I COULDN'T SEE](https://www.btr.org/my-husband-hates-me/) **Published:** March 14, 2023 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Have you ever thought, “My husband hates me?” See the pattern he’s hidden in plain sight. **Content:** Have you ever felt like, “my husband hates me” and you had no idea why? Maybe nothing obvious is happening that you can point to and say, “This proves it.” The truth is: emotionally abusive men don’t have to yell or call you names for you to feel unloved, emotionally unsafe, and completely confused about why your marriage feels so painful. Take this [free emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/) to find out if your husband is emotionally abusive. Key takeaways from this article: - [How “small” patterns over time erode feeling safe and loved.](#I-never-felt-safe-or-loved) - [Doubting your own needs often signals deeper issues.](#Carrying-everything-at-home) - [How covert abuse makes it hard to spot the overall dynamic.](#Disassociating-from-the-patterns) - [How setting boundaries may highlight a troubling power imbalance.](#setting-boundaries) - [The right support can help you see the pattern and plan for safety.](#Making-sense-of-it-all) ## 5 SIGNS IT’S EMOTIONAL ABUSE AND NOT YOUR FAULT ### 1. EVERY CONCERN I HAD, MEANT I WAS “TOO MUCH” Every time I ask for help, express emotion, or bring up a concern, he flips it back on me. He said I was, “too much, unable to let anything go, making mountains out of molehills, or just wanting to fight.” He had no empathy for me. The repeated message was: any natural reactions, needs, or concerns I had, were character flaws. My husband purposefully kept me in a place of doubting my relationship skills, and his manipulation worked. It kept me spinning my wheels always trying to prove to him that I am lovable. ### 2. MY HUSBAND HATES ME: WHILE I TRIED HARDER, HE SEEMED ANNOYED Have you ever done something nice for him, and he seems super annoyed? Let’s say you’re like, “Hey, I picked up your dry cleaning on the way home.” And he’s like, “Do you want a parade?” You know, he’s got this like sulky teenager sort of reaction instead of saying, “Oh, thank you so much.” If he’s doing that, you would definitely get the sense that he hated you. ### 3. HE WAS NOT KIND, BUT I DIDN’T NOTICE UNTIL SOMEONE ELSE POINTED IT OUT TO ME My husband wasn’t overtly unkind, but I didn’t notice until somebody else pointed it out. I didn’t think my husband hates me. It was when he ignored me at a party. Instead of being like, “Hey, this is my wife,” he just stood in front of me and didn’t introduce me. I had never thought about how rude that was. I just thought, “Oh, maybe he didn’t think about me.” But not thinking about someone is actually unkind. ### 4. WHEN I SET A BOUNDARY, HE FELT ATTACKED When I quietly stopped doing something I didn’t want to do, he reacted like I had attacked him. And that confused me for years, because I wasn’t yelling. I wasn’t insulting him. I was simply saying no without always saying the word. And I wasn’t doing anything, besides not doing something I didn’t want to do. He did that all the time. But if he’s only in the relationship to have control over you, “no” feels like rebellion. Because he does not see your boundary as an autonomous person. He sees it as you failing to serve him. So when he says he loves you but acts like he hates you, sometimes what he hates is not you. He hates that you have your own needs. Your own limits. Your own body. It’s shocking to realize the level of [abuse you’ve experienced](/spiritual-abuse-symptoms/). To learn more about this type of abuse, [listen to The Free Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast.](/podcast/) ## TRANSCRIPT: I FEEL LIKE MY HUSBAND HATES ME **Anne:** I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’ll be talking about feeling like my husband hates me. We’re gonna call her Allison. Welcome, Allison. **Allison:** Thank you so much. I’m so happy to be here. I’m totally fangirling right now, ’cause I have listened to you for so many years. I still can’t believe this is happening. So I did not miss a podcast. I go way, way, way, way, way back. This is so cool for me. **Anne:** Oh wow. Well, you’ve been on this journey with me then. **Allison:** I know at one time you said you could tell the change in your voice. And I totally could. I found you and it was amazing. Lemme just say it that way. It was the validation. It’s funny when I try to tell my story now, it’s hard because I am so clearheaded now. And I think it’s so hard to tell how you were then. Because, if I knew now what I knew then. It would be a completely different story. So when I tell people about you, I tell them to go back to the beginning, Because then you can go along with her. I was married 20 years, I was the textbook, didn’t know anything was really wrong. And I say that now and I think I know a lot of stuff that was wrong. **Anne:** Let’s start back at that beginning when you were in the dark, so to speak. Talk about how you felt when you first met him. Did you suspect something was wrong? And then what did you think it was? ## I NEVER FELT SAFE OR LOVED **Allison:** All this tangible stuff that you can point to, if it was happening. I didn’t know about it. As far as I know, he never cheated on me. I don’t know if he ever used pornography. Didn’t call me names, didn’t yell at me. When we first met, we were in college, we were in our twenties. We were friends, we dated, got engaged and married. Now, I can tell you inside my inner gut, I never really felt safe or loved or anything by him. But I didn’t know that that was wrong. I’m the kind of person who is optimistic. I’m very hopeful. I can do a lot of things at once. I can solve a lot of problems. Now, it would be totally different, but I didn’t think anything was wrong. I thought I was super happy, comfortable, and safe in that relationship. In hindsight, I felt like I was always the nag, I was, OCD, I was over the top, I was a pain. I had these extremely high, crazy expectations that nobody could meet. That was just our life, and we had my first son after we’d been married about seven years, and everything just got bad. It was then that I started to think my husband hates me. And then three years later, we had our daughter, and things got worse. And I thought it was me. I thought I’m just a hard person to be around. **Anne:** I don’t know if I’ve said this on the podcast, but of a time we were at a park and he was just being mean to me and I was like, I’m really great. I’m really cool. So it’s the opposite of what you were thinking, it’s me. But maybe sometimes you did think I’m great, why doesn’t he like me? ## I TURNED TO MY CHURCH AND THERAPY FOR HELP **Allison:** Little voices in my head would be like, why don’t I have these problems with anybody else? Why does nobody else in my life tell me I am difficult to communicate with? I get paid to communicate with people. And I feel like I’m really good at it. But I thought it was me. I was not super religious, grew up Christian, but not overly so. When I was having a hard time being a mom and didn’t feel like I had any support, I went to church and I just threw myself into the Methodist church, and I would tell you now, I love the Methodist Church dearly in my heart. They helped me find Jesus, and I love all that. But it made all this so much worse. I needed help because I feel like my husband hates me. I just threw into the submission and be a better Biblical wife, and it took everything already happening and exponentially made it worse. **Anne:** Back then when you thought it was you, did you go to therapy? Did you try to go to a couple therapy with him? Can you talk about the therapeutic experience? **Allison:** Yes, so the first time we went to therapy, we’d probably been married six years. It was very much, something is wrong, and I don’t know what kind of thing. I found myself more attracted to other people. I was like, why do I like these other men? Or I’d rather be with friends more than him. Again, I just thought, what’s wrong with me? He’s funny, he is nice, he has a good job, and he treats me well. ## I TRIED EVERYTHING AND STILL, MY HUSBAND HATES ME **Allison:** So the first time we went to therapy, that was the premise and the therapist, it was the date night, go on more date nights, all this typical stuff. I just tried harder. Thought maybe we should have a baby. Maybe that’ll help. Maybe I should quit work, maybe that’ll help. I tried to be a better wife. And I threw myself into all *The Power of a Praying Wife* books. And how can I be a better wife? ‘Cause if I am better. Then he will give me some sort of safety or love that I’m craving. **Anne:** You mentioned he was nice to you. He is a good guy. Why don’t I wanna spend time with him? Was he actually nice to you? **Allison:** Actually not nice, not nice or kind. He was none of that, but I couldn’t see it. I didn’t think my husband hates me. So again, in hindsight now, he was always very grumpy. He was mean to my friends. Definitely mean to my family. Of course, none of them said anything either. 20 years later, I was like, why didn’t you say anything to me? And they said, “You seemed okay, so we didn’t feel like it was our place.” **Anne:** What did they think of him from their point of view? **Allison:** Close friends and family, people who really knew me, thought he was a jerk. Why does she like this person? But they just trusted me. They said, “Well, she’s a smart person, he must treat her great at home.” He was mean to waiters, had road rage. He was that kind of person, who was [angry all the time.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uW1bV9zv7w) ## WORKING FULL TIME AND CARRYING EVERYTHING AT HOME **Allison:** That all elevated when we had kids. I think most people questioned me. What is she seeing in him? That made me question myself even more. Everything I tried to do, therapy, church, and advice from people who loved me, put it more onto me. So the first time I went to therapy, just nothing. I felt this heavy weight. Now I have to work full-time and take care of everything in the house, take care of the yard and the cars, and plan all our date nights and stuff so that he will be nice to me. It just put even more onto me. Our pattern was complaining or criticizing, or asking for help, or having any emotion. And then him saying, “Well that’s you. You’re too much, you’re overboard. You can never let anything go. You just wanna fight.” It was, gaslighting at its extreme. And I took it, I don’t think it’s ’cause I’m stupid or a doormat. I think I took it cause I just thought I could fix it. **Anne:** Also, strangely, it shows what a good person you are. You weren’t super offended. You were like, “Oh, maybe that is true. Maybe I can improve.” You didn’t feel like my husband hates me. **Allison:** I’ve always liked self-improvement. I think my dad gave me *The Seven Habits* when I was in high school school. I’ve always been the kind of person who thrives on how I can become a better person. That’s always been me. And so, I just fit the mold. I always say now, “What a great person to be married to.” He was married to somebody who was going to keep trying. ## ABUSERS SEEM TO FIT THE SAME MOLD **Anne:** I wouldn’t say you fit the mold. And this is why, it’s really weird. The abusers seem to fit the mold. ‘Cause they all tend to have the same patterns, even if they look a little bit different. But victims act totally different. Some of them, I didn’t do this, but some shut down and become more quiet. Some become louder. And some try self-improvement, some don’t. It’s really interesting that we react in all different kinds of ways, but the fact that they lie, and then they keep lying, and they don’t stop lying, is what makes them pretty much all similar. It depends on how they lie. **Allison:** Fast forward 20 years later. ‘Cause it was really just 20 years of the same. We found ourselves in therapy a couple more times between this and that point. At first, I thought something was maybe wrong with my son. He needs to go to therapy. Is he on the spectrum? What is wrong? Why is family fighting all the time? Why can’t we sit down to a meal without fighting? And why are we always fighting in the car? Why do we not fight when I go out with my friends and their kids? And it was just, what is wrong here? And the therapist that time. I think he saw it. I really do, this person saw it. He told my ex, if you wanna see changes in the behavior of your son, you’ll need to treat your wife the way you want your son to treat her. You can’t yell at your son for leaving stuff around the house, and not help out at home. If you are not doing those things. ## MY HUSBAND HATES ME: HE WAS LAZY TO AN EXTREME **Allison:** It was very elementary, and very gentle. And my ex is like, we’re never gonna see him again. That therapist is terrible. He’s trying to blame it all on me. It just wasn’t worth the fight, that was time number two. **Anne:** During this time, did you ever find pornography or affairs or sexting or anything like that? **Allison:** I didn’t, to this day, I still don’t know. They’re all the same, it would not surprise me. **Anne:** Yeah, there are so many women who are like, I don’t know. And then later they find out or never find out. Even though they feel like my husband hates me. But it wouldn’t surprise me either, with what you’re saying. **Allison:** And honestly, I’m at the point where it doesn’t matter either way. I think I lived a very long time in the, I need something to prove that he’s a bad person for me to justify how I feel. All I could say tangibly is that he was lazy to an extreme. He would never help with anything. He’s set his alarm to go off at four o’clock in the morning, and it would go off and wake everybody up. But then wouldn’t get outta bed till eight o’clock in the morning, constantly for years. We had two kids, and I’m putting ’em to bed at night. I’d say, can you do the dishes so that I can just come downstairs and watch TV after I put the kids to bed? I come downstairs, he’s asleep. The dishes aren’t done. And next morning, I would say, “I thought you were gonna do the dishes, that upset me.” ## IT WAS EASIER TO DISASSOCIATE FROM THE PATTERNS **Allison:** It was just, “Why can you not let anything go? You make a mountain out of a mole hill. You just wanna fight all the time.” I didn’t see those as patterns. It was so covert. Everything turned back onto me and I just accepted it. ‘Cause I think it felt like I had a little bit of control. If I could accept that it was me, maybe I could fix it. **Anne:** Yeah, I mean that’s the hope, we want to fix it. **Allison:** We want to fix it. **Anne:** Yeah. **Allison:** When he would say things like, “You just wanna fight. You want to blow this up?” Now I look back at those conversations, and I wish I could go back in time, because it’s the last thing I wanted. But instead of me being that clear and saying, “No, I don’t wanna fight.” I would say, “I’m so sorry I did this. I’m so sorry I brought this up.” **Anne:** Mm. Mm-hmm. **Allison:** It just got easier to disassociate from it and try to do my own thing, than to try to fix it, because every fight ended with me. Not just fight, every conversation ended with it was my fault. And so it just got easier to never have a conversation or never bring up a concern, ’cause it was just gonna be my fault anyway. ## I LOST MYSELF COMPLETELY **Allison:** Then I lived for several years like that, and that’s where I just lost myself completely. One day my sister said, “Something’s not right”. Again, it was all very gentle, nothing blew up. Something just doesn’t seem right. You’ve been married for 20 years, having the same fight for 20 years.” She had been married a little over 10. And she’s like, “We resolve problems. You’ve never resolved a problem, and that’s not normal.” I let this little pin prick into my head that maybe this isn’t normal and maybe it’s not me. That was it. It was very gentle. That’s when I went back to that same therapist for about eight years before and sat on his couch, and I was like, “Something’s not right. I don’t know what’s wrong, but I just don’t wanna do anything.” And I’m a happy person. I’m an extrovert. I just wasn’t myself. He had already seen it eight years before. Very gently he said, “Here’s a book called [*Boundaries* using them in marriage](/what-does-the-bible-say-about-boundaries-in-marriage/). Maybe you should read this.” And so I read it and I was like, oh, yay, this is what’s wrong. We’re gonna fix it. He’s gonna read the book and realize that, oh, and we’re gonna fix it. And then that’s when the bottom dropped out. Because when I switched my tactic to, maybe it’s not all me, maybe it’s only 99% me, but 1% you, he lost it. And that’s when things escalated and it started becoming a little bit more overt. ## MY HUSBAND HATES ME: I FOUND BETRAYAL TRAUMA RECOVERY **Allison:** That’s right about when I Googled, “Why am I so unhappy in my marriage if nothing is wrong?” Something like that. I think covert abuse popped up and I was like, I wonder what that means. Gaslighting popped up. That’s when I found BTR, I started listening to your podcast. This is what’s happening. Oh my gosh. I was still hopeful it could fix it, because now I knew what it was. I lived like that for about nine months. And then one day it was like, no, I still very gently went to him and said, “You need to get outta the house. And if you ever decide to admit that maybe some of this could be you and you wanna talk, then come back and talk to me. But in the meantime, I’m done.” We had a big blow up. Then family court drama and the kids and all that. I saw who he really was, ’cause then it all came out. He went from literally one week of, “You’re the love of my life. Please don’t leave. We can work this out. I’ll do anything. I will do anything to save this.” It went from that to, “I want to destroy you. I will do anything to destroy you, destroy your family, destroy your business and take your children.” And it was that fast. Then I spent a few years trying to figure all that out. I faced the painful truth, my husband hates me. **Anne:** That’s what frustrates me about the domestic abuse services. I didn’t need the domestic violence shelter. But help with navigating the [emotional](/what-are-the-long-term-effects-of-emotional-abuse-in-marriage/), psychological, and [spiritual abuse](/signs-of-spiritual-abuse/). They’re all about divorce, and if you don’t get divorced, something’s wrong with you. ## THEY WANT TO SCARE YOU, SO THEY CAN CONTROL YOU **Anne:** They look at you like you’re crazy if you don’t wanna get divorced. And then the second problem is they think divorce is the solution. **Allison:** Yes, it’s the start of the journey. **Anne:** Not the solution. **Allison:** No, that’s where you were invaluable. I’m telling you. So at this point, we had Our Family Wizard, and my sister had the password, and she would scrub through them. She’d say, this is the only thing you need to answer. I was terrified to block his number. I was terrified to not answer the phone if he called. Because I just thought, I have to answer the phone because if I don’t, he’s gonna say I’m not answering the phone, and then I’m not being collaborative, and then he’s gonna use that with the lawyer. That was the scariest part, that time right then. **Anne:** The thing I wanna tell women listening is, yeah, you’re scared and you’re scared for good reason because they’re scary, but they want to scare you. They’re scaring you on purpose, so that you’ll do what they want. It’s a form of coercive control. **Allison:** He was always able to gaslight me some way, so the pattern’s the same, it’s just that whatever they’re doing to scare you. **Anne:** When the gaslighting stopped working, that’s when he started using the other thing. And then when the court’s involved, the court becomes like an extension of his. ## A THREE YEAR COURT BATTLE **Allison:** Yeah, and my kids by then were older, I do thank God every day they weren’t younger. My heart breaks for women with young kids in this system because, this was really hard on my kids and sometimes I feel like we barely got out alive. I feel like we were bloody and bruised, it was so hard on all of us. But they were older, I was always honest with them. You’re given all kinds of weird advice, don’t ever disparage him. I was always very gentle about it. Your dad thinks differently than I think, but you can have your own relationship with him. He accused me of alienation, and we had the whole thing and spent hundreds of thousands of dollars and whatever. But they were older. And that three year court battle ended with them talking to the judge alone. And she set us free. She said, “The final ruling that came down was that the children should spend half their time with their father. You worry about them [watching ](https://www.btr.org/what-to-do-when-your-child-watches-inappropriate-things/)[inappropriate](/what-to-do-when-your-child-watches-inappropriate-things/)[ media](https://www.btr.org/what-to-do-when-your-child-watches-inappropriate-things/). And it literally said something like, it’s not the mother’s sole responsibility to make that happen. That’s all it said. And so I never heard from him, he fell off the face of the earth. **Anne:** Isn’t that crazy? He spent hundreds of thousands of dollars fighting you for the kids, and then once it ends, nothing. There’s a section of that in my workshop that you’d appreciate that talks about that and the strategy to use because of this very reason. It is crazy that they will fight and fight and fight. ## MY HUSBAND HATES ME: HIS BEHAVIOR VALIDATED THE TRUTH **Anne:** In my case, I was trying to have custody remain the same. And he was getting more, so I was fighting that in court, and he won basically. I ended up stopping the suit and just filing out of court. But a year later, he completely was like, yeah, you can have them full time all the time. I’m like, why did you just spend $50,000 fighting me in court when you didn’t want the kids? It’s never about the kids. It showed that my husband hates me and wants me punished. **Allison:** And you know in a way all that stuff was very validating to me. **Anne:** Yeah. **Allison:** It’s hard now. I can’t get back in my brain where I was then. But I was very confused. I sound now like I was very sure of myself. I was not always sure of myself. There were lots of times where I wondered if I was doing the right thing. I’m talking to a guardian ad litem and we’ve got all these different therapists. I was trying to do the right thing, but I wasn’t always sure I was doing the right thing. Now in hindsight, his terribleness is very validating. And now my kids are doing fine. They will have issues that they will have to deal with the rest of their lives, and they will deal with it. But for the most part, they are doing okay. **Anne:** And I think kids do way better when they know it’s not them. When they know, I’m lovable, my dad’s incapable of loving people. That has nothing to do with me. ## YOU’LL FIND YOU’RE NOT ALONE **Allison:** Right, and you can have a relationship with a dad who’s a jerk. That’s fine, they just had to learn their own boundaries. My one son is almost 21 now and my daughter’s 17. So they can do whatever they want with this, and we’ll see. I think the part that’s so hard now to tell people is when they’re in that super confused state. ‘Cause I just want them to jump to here. I know you feel like you’re gonna die, and I know you feel like you can’t go on. And I promise you, you can. The women in this community are awesome. They are rock stars. I mean, these are women who never made a dime and are now supporting themselves off strange part-time side hustles and just amazing. **Anne:** I know. It’s so hard, so in my [workshop](/livingfree/) that I designed for women in that specific situation. So they could see what was happening. **Allison:** It’s so critical. It’s so good. Like literally a hundred percent sure that these would help people. You have to be clear enough in your head to believe it and trust it. And I think that’s really hard, especially when you’re in that initial stage. You’re given all this advice, and you’re just bombarded by all these people. Just listen to some podcasts, read some books, like *[Trauma Mama Husband Drama](https://www.btr.org/books-about-emotional-abuse/)*. You’ll find that you’re not alone. And it’s so validating. Listen to the survivors and the people who now can be like, I did it. My husband hates me and I survived. **Anne:** Yeah. ## MAKING SENSE OF IT ALL THROUGH BETRAYAL TRAUMA RECOVERY **Allison:** I just feel like we went through like a battle, but we’re still here. **Anne:** Yeah, so for those women who are listening and thinking like, okay, should I trust Anne? I’m not saying blindly, but the women who have shared their stories, like Allison. Should I trust the workshop or should I continue to go to couple therapy? And I’m not even like quit couple therapy. Just do the [BTR Workshop](/livingfree/) and see if you feel differently afterwards. It’s so hard to trust someone, especially like a “podcast” rather than a therapist, your church or your family. **Allison:** I’ll tell you from my experience. When I would listen to you. What you were saying made sense. Where sometimes what a therapist told me, I had to almost figure out how to make it make sense, right? Everything you said made sense. I didn’t have to reach. And you sounded a lot, like how I felt. So my problem is, it’s hard for me to put into words or writing. So when I hear somebody who can articulate how I feel, that feels good. That person sounds like how I feel. And then when your guests come on, I’ve listened to so many of ’em. I usually walk my dog, listen to the podcast, and walk around my neighborhood. I’m always like, yes, that’s it. And you’ll hear the same things. When people say, and then he called me a name and he yelled at me. Sometimes you start, “Oh, is my situation really as bad?” You start these comparisons. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## MY HUSBAND HATES ME: TAKING INFORMATION TO MY THERAPIST **Allison:** But it’s more that you could just relate to them. I think that’s what I would say. If you’re talking to your pastor or therapist, it feels like a stretch. But if you hear somebody you feel you can relate to, you can probably trust them. **Anne:** It’s been interesting. A few women have said, “I listened to your podcast. It was amazing. Then I took your information to my therapist, so that I could train my therapist in what you were saying, so that she could help me or he could help me. And I’m like, you realize you don’t have to train our coaches in our [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group sessions](/group/). We already know how to do this. So if you’re feeling like, oh, this is so good. I’m gonna take this information to my therapist. We’re here, you don’t have to train us. We already know this. We can help you now, instead of having you teach your therapist what we’re saying. Also, they won’t actually get it. They’ll maybe act like they do because they would be doing it if they got it. **Allison:** It’s hard to trust therapists, pastors. It’s very hard for me now. I was doing the same thing. I would try to give books to the people helpers in my life, “Listen to this.” And they almost wanna fight it. Who is this person? Or why? I think now, if I’m having to work so hard to get something, there’s something wrong there. Maybe my husband hates me. **Anne:** We’re here to help you now. You don’t have to train us. We can help you immediately. ## YOU REALLY NEED AN ADVOCATE **Allison:** What’s really helping you would be my question. Is it really helping you? Learning all this stuff from people who understand. If that hadn’t happened, I don’t know if I would’ve been strong enough to fight with the therapist, the guardian at litem, the pastor, the family who didn’t believe. I did need some backup, but I hate that now. And what I would tell people now is, “It’s your gut. If your gut tells you this person sounds trustworthy, and this person can articulate how you feel, and they can articulate what’s actually going on in your life. Then that’s the person you can trust.” **Anne:** I don’t think anyone can do it alone. So I don’t think you need to feel bad about being like, man, I couldn’t go against the therapist or the pastor and should have been able to do it. I don’t think anybody can. You really do need an advocate or somebody who validates you, because otherwise you legit think you’re going crazy when you realize my husband hates me.. **Allison:** Yes, for sure. That’s the mind control. I also got very into stories about people who left cults. I would read. I’d get this advice from the bad therapists, the bad pastors, and the bad books. And I couldn’t relate to it. Then I’d watch a documentary about somebody who left Scientology and I was like, oh my gosh, I get her. And it was weird to me. I was like, why can I relate with that person who has nothing in common with me, and I can’t relate to this person at my own church who’s trying to help me? ## AN UNDERSTANDING COMMUNITY EXPONENTIALLY HELPS HEALING **Allison:** That seemed strange to me. Instead, I just trusted it a little bit, and I started doing a little more research, and I thought you were in that. And that’s why I just fully believe these relationships are a little cult of one, and it’s like leaving a cult. Because all that gaslighting, especially if it’s covert, that makes that so much harder. So they need advocates. **Anne:** I like that, “cult of one.” Yeah, you need a foundation of truth somewhere. Because otherwise it just feels like you’re floating in space with nothing to hold onto. It’s very, very difficult. **Allison:** I put some stuff on Facebook, probably a little more real than I should have. Then I’d have somebody reach out to me, and I’d get a Facebook message from somebody, oh what you just posted? Then I’d say, “Hey, do you wanna meet?” A friend who knows a friend who knows a friend. And what we saw was that it was so much easier for me to see it in somebody else. She’d send me conversations or recordings of their conversations or texts. And I would be like, “Oh this is what he is doing, this is what he’s doing.” It was so clear to me that my husband hates me. And then we started realizing you start from the person who needs a lot of help, then you’re now suddenly the person helping somebody here. So that was another thing that I think your community, it exponentially helps that healing. ## MY HUSBAND HATES ME: VALIDATION IN THE BEGINNING IS CRITICAL **Anne:** Yeah, I’ve been thinking about this a lot. We call them Chucks at BTR. **Allison:** Yes. **Anne:** So with your Chuck, you know all these other things about him. It’s hard to sort through it, but other people from the outside are just looking at the facts. **Allison:** Yes. **Anne:** They haven’t had the late night conversations with him where he tells you he’s totally in love with you or that he was so hurt as a child. **Allison:** Sorry, and he won’t do it again. **Anne:** Yeah, they haven’t had any of that, and so they can look at the actions, the behaviors, and what’s going on, and it’s very clear. But it’s foggy in the middle, when my husband hates me. **Allison:** That was a mean thing to say. **Anne:** Yeah. **Allison:** I’m intrigued by the use of AI in all this now. I have our old emails I had with him towards the end, these things that will analyze them for you. It is fascinating. But anything validating in that beginning is also so critical. I think the hardest was, oh yeah, this seems so clear. And it felt like lightning bolts coming at me. I woke up and it was so clear. And then, you go through the day or the next day and it’s all mush again. Where did that clarity go, where did that validation go? The community can give you that over and over and over. ## WHEN THE PAST TRAUMA STARTS TO FADE **Anne:** Yeah, that’s exactly it. Because without that daily check-in with reality, where someone’s validating reality. It does make it hard to hold onto. **Allison:** Yes. **Anne:** I’m so glad we’ve gone down that same path. We’ve had the same sort of experiences-ish. And now we’re both safe and delivered. I always use that word delivered. **Allison:** Oh I use that word all the time. I loved when you were doing that part. And I loved when you were praying for deliverance for him. I was doing the same thing. **Anne:** Yeah. **Allison:** That was a fun phase. **Anne:** I’ve done a couple of interviews lately with women. I agree with them in this moment. They’ve said things like, “Trauma, it always stays in your body. You’re never gonna forget, he wants me to forget, but how can I forget feeling like my husband hates me?” That kind of thing. And I 100% agree, because when I was there, that’s how I felt. And now, I forget sometimes. It’s weird ’cause I’m not living with it. I’m not experiencing his trauma anymore. And once you’re completely safe and delivered, I wouldn’t say I would ever forget. Sometimes when people tell stories, it takes me back there. Today I remembered when I was in the park. I can go back there. I recently finished my book and that has been interesting because I detail some of the things that happened. Evidence that my husband hates me. And they’re really bad. I can’t remember exactly how many, but I think it was seven therapists and five or six bishops that I went through. ## MY HUSBAND HATES ME: I STILL GET ANGRY SOMETIMES **Allison:** That’s very similar to me, same kind of numbers. **Anne:** So at least just on my day-to-day living, I don’t think about it. This is my job, so I think about it when I’m talking to people, but going about my day, no. I don’t constantly think my husband hates me. **Allison:** I had the one good therapist. I went through years and did EMDR therapy, and I did it a lot. One time I sat down with him and he said, “Someday, you’re gonna be sitting on a beach somewhere, and this is gonna be gone. It will not be in your head.” I’m holding onto that. It’s not quite there. I still get angry sometimes, ’cause stuff still happens. **Anne:** Yeah. **Allison:** Something will happen with the kids, and I have to communicate. It’s very rare, we don’t communicate much, but stuff still happens, and I can still get very angry. So the anger is definitely still there. I feel like he wasted all those years of my life. But then just like you, I’m like, I would’ve never been this person I am now, which is doing all these other wonderful things. I can rationalize that in my head. The one part I can’t get over yet. And so this would be interesting to hear you talk to other people about it. ‘Cause I want to get over it, I want him to say he’s sorry. I just crave it. I don’t ever wanna see him again. It wasn’t all you, **Anne:** For him to suddenly be like, you know what? I lied to your face. It was 100% me. ‘Cause that’s what he would have to say. **Allison:** Exactly, yeah. ## HE’S STILL BLOCKED ON MY PHONE **Allison:** Someday, even that’s gonna go away and that will be great. When I just don’t even care anymore. That’s the only thing that hangs on there every once in a while. I’ve had so many other people tell me it’s not you. And I don’t know why I care. I just wish that would go away. **Anne:** That makes total sense. **Allison:** It’s most likely never gonna happen. It might just fade into where he just disappears completely from my thoughts. **Anne:** My situation right now with my Chuck, I think he wants me to like him. Not sexually or anything, but I’ll say something, and he’ll be so friendly and happy about it. Because I use the strategies now, I think he thinks everything’s fine. And when I say that, I know that he is still the person he was. He is lying still, it’s just that now I’m apathetic about it and don’t care about engaging with him. But I think he actually thinks, oh, things are good now. Even though he still does things that prove my husband hates me. The fact that he’s still blocked on my phone, the fact that I will never talk to him except for through Our Family Wizard, the fact that I don’t believe a word he says, there’s all these things. I wasn’t like that until I got delivered, and since I got delivered, maybe I’ll say something to him like, oh, what a nice day. But that’s it. At that point, I’m out of there. If we talked for longer than 30 seconds or maybe 10 seconds, that the dagger would definitely come out. ## JUST DO THE NEXT “RIGHT” THING **Anne:** And his wife, I think at this point, likes me a lot more than she likes him. It’s weird, because over text, she’s so friendly. She always asks me very politely. If I say no, she’s like, no problem. She’s amazing. I am so grateful for her. She’s great. But in person, when I see her, she’s got that look on her face, like I’m in a bad situation. I don’t know what to do. I wonder if she’s thinking my husband hates me. And I have no idea if she knows about the podcast or not, but I think, oh man, if you listened, think about how much you related to me. Can you imagine my Chuck’s wife listening and being like, this is my life literally. That would be crazy. I don’t know if that’ll ever happen. I’ve been lucky, and my kids have been lucky. She’s a good person. So my ex had good taste. I’ll say that about him. **Allison:** He picked you. **Anne:** Yeah, anyway, I don’t know what will happen with that. Sometimes I fantasize for two seconds about her showing up on my door. **Allison:** I listened to your podcast, I need your help. That would be very validating as well. **Anne:** Yeah, this is specifically for you. **Allison:** Yes. If any of this resonates with you. If you think something is wrong, and you can’t put your finger on it. Trust that it doesn’t mean you’re over emotional or over sensitive. That’s reality, that’s God telling you, trust it, and then just do the next thing. That was the most helpful advice, just do the next thing, right? ## HELPING WOMEN FIND THE TRUTH THEY NEED **Allison:** So if you listened to the first one, your first podcast you’ve ever listened to, scroll back and find one where maybe the title sounds like something that you can relate to and listen to that one. It starts from a tiny pinprick of reality, truth, and light. In the end, what happens is like that pin prick of light becomes so much. And everybody gets there. **Anne:** Yeah. **Allison:** I don’t know one person that hasn’t got there. They’ve all got there in their own ways and their own time. **Anne:** Yeah, exactly. **Allison:** Everybody gets there. Because it’s real, because this is what’s happening. You are not a bad person, and he’s a jerk. I wouldn’t trade it. I wouldn’t go back and not do this, ’cause I wouldn’t be who I am and able to see things the way I see, that’s a unique way. **Anne:** Thank you so much for taking the time to spend with us today. Sharing stories helps women who might be thinking my husband hates me. **Allison:** I love it. And I’m gonna keep listening. I listen every week. **Anne:** Awesome, thank you. **Allison:** Thank you so much. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma --- ### [DOES MY HUSBAND NEED A SEX ADDICTION THERAPIST?](https://www.btr.org/sex-addiction-therapist-near-me/) **Published:** December 27, 2022 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Have you ever wondered how to know if your husband has a sex addiction? You're not alone. **Content:** If you’re typing “sex addiction therapist near me” because your husband says he has an addiction, you’re not alone. For nearly two decades, I have helped women navigate betrayal and the confusing labels that surface in the midst of their searches for help. After over 200 long-form interviews and more than 8,000 clients served, here is what I’ve learned matters most: **The impact his behavior has on you matters more than the label.** Below are the most common patterns to pay attention to when you’re searching for help. ## PATTERNS TO IDENTIFY BEFORE GOING THE ADDICTION RECOVERY ROUTE ### 1. EVIDENCE OF GROOMING IN THE RELATIONSHIP Looking back, did it seem like your relationship moved fast, like you were being “swept off your feet?” Did your husband’s texting, romantic gestures, over-the-top generosity, pushing sexual or emotional boundaries, and talk of the future early in the relationship, cause you to feel swept up in something that turned out to be too good to be true. Using manipulation to build trust and emotional dependence before his deception is exposed is grooming. And it’s a separate issue from “addiction.” ### 2. HE HAS A HISTORY OF SECRET INAPPROPRIATE BEHAVIOR If you’re discovering hidden accounts, secret inappropriate media use, online sexual chatting or affairs, you’re not looking at single momentary lapses in judgment. You’re looking at a pattern of lies and behaviors that helped him sustain a double life. Secrecy like this takes planning. It requires him to lie to you, day after day. ### 3. HE LIES CONVINCINGLY TO COVER HIS TRACKS Do you feel outsmarted by your husband? Maybe you’ve felt something was off with his online activities, but his browsing history and chats are always clear of anything that would confirm your feelings. Maybe he always seems to have the perfect excuse for the odd messages that you do catch or why the office was mistaken when they said he’d left for the day. Many men who hide their activities, do so through the use of multiple devices and secret apps, but regardless of whether you catch him or not, your gut feelings are giving you important information. ### 4. HE MAKES YOU FEEL CRAZY What happens when you sense that something isn’t quite right? Does your husband invalidate your feelings or accuse you of being “suspicious, paranoid or imagining things?” Does he question your memory of facts and events? A man who has nothing to hide shouldn’t feel threatened by your intuition. ### 5. HIS REACTIONS TO SIMPLE QUESTIONS ARE INAPPROPRIATE Are there moments when his reactions don’t match the question you’re asking? Maybe you ask why he was late coming home from work or what his plans are on Saturday, and he becomes cold or angry. Or maybe he even calls you names, yells, or throws things because he’s “tired, frustrated, or feels like you’re attacking him.” Many women quickly learn to “stay in line” to prevent outbursts like these which accomplishes his goal of controlling you. ### 6. HE USES THERAPY FOR HIS ADDICTION TO AVOID ACCOUNTABILITY Does he say things like “I can’t help it, I’m working my program” or “you’re triggering me” as a way to sidestep responsibility for the feelings you have about the harm he has done. By this point he’s created an emotionally unsafe environment for you that the label of addiction can’t erase. Real accountability sounds like specific ownership of past harm and present change. It doesn’t sound like clinical language used to explain away betrayal. ### 8. HE MINIMIZES OR REDEFINES Hi Harmful Behavior Does he downplay what happened? When phrases like “it wasn’t anything serious, I’d never do anything to hurt you” or “it’s not like I cheated” show up he’s telling you that his intentions matter more than your feelings about the reality of his actions. Minimization is part of the cycle he uses to keep you off-balance. ### 9. He Shifts Blame to You Has he suggested that his behavior is a reaction to yours? Saying things like “if you had been meeting my needs, I wouldn’t have stumbled or relapsed” or if things we’re so stressful at home, I wouldn’t need to escape.” No matter what you do or don’t do, his behavior belongs to him. The fact is that he has hundreds of coping choices available to him every day, just like you do. Choosing to betray you and blaming you for it, is just manipulation. ### 10. You Feel Relief When You’re Away From Him This may be the clearest sign. Do you feel more calm, confident, and stable when he isn’t around. Relief is information. ## DOES HE REALLY NEED A SEX ADDICTION THERAPIST NEAR ME OR IS THIS SOMETHING ELSE? Here’s the hard truth: In the addiction model alone, your next steps are often going focus on helping him through a 12-step program, addiction therapy, or recovery support which often discourages women from calling his behavior emotionally abusive and it desensitizes them to manipulation. The way you define what’s really happening matters in determining your next move. Start by asking yourself**:** - Do I feel emotionally safe? - What boundaries do I need? - What support do I need? - Is he trustworthy? You do not need to diagnose him to know whether you feel safe. If you are unsure whether your husband’s behavior qualifies as addiction, manipulation, or emotional abuse: - Take our [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). - Enroll in the Workshop to determine your level of safety. - Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session for validation and clarity. After nearly two decades of helping women thrive after betrayal, one truth remains clear: You don’t need to figure this out alone. ![Betrayal Trauma Is Caused By Abuse Not Addiction](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/BJgSmoYB0EQ/maxresdefault.jpg) ## Transcript: The Truth About Betrayal Trauma & causes of addiction **Anne:** I have a member of our community on today’s episode, we’re going to call her Cindy. Welcome Cindy. **Cindy:** Good morning, thank you, Anne. **Anne:** So Cindy, why don’t you just start with your story wherever you want to start? **Cindy:** Sure, last February, I had what I now call my third and final D-Day in my relationship with my husband. I basically witnessed some behaviors that when I confronted him, it became evident to me that he had relapsed quite a time before. So basically, I found out again that he was in his addiction and lying for the three years prior. Being that I had some bottom line boundaries for myself, which was that I would not be in a relationship with an addict not pursuing recovery. And that I would not be kept in the dark again about my reality. And after talking to him through this, it became evident that it was now time for me to say we couldn’t continue. We had been in recovery for 10 years post my initial D-Day, and I was comfortable calling it quits at this point. So since August, I’m legally separated. We are heading for divorce. It’s not a therapeutic separation. **Anne:** So for women who just started listening to the podcast, let’s talk about a couple terms you brought up. Can you define D-Day for us? **Cindy:** Yes, that’s a shorthand way of saying the day of discovery. Usually we use that term to describe the first day of discovery. The BTR coaches tend to use it for any discovery that has kind of redefined reality. ## Recognizing Red Flags **Cindy:** The original discovery when I first discovered his pornography use last February. I realized he had returned to using it. I talked to many women. Who, like myself, before I had the education I have now, think some of their relationships are on a path to healing. But, until we know the signs, learn to trust our gut and pay attention to the red flags, and know about the causes of addiction. We can put faith in the fact that our spouses are on the right road. Or that good start is gonna last. And so, I’ve heard many women say, I knew about this, I found out about this, and I thought X, Y, and Z. I thought we were on the road to recovery. I thought he was doing well. Things seemed better. And then I discovered this. **Anne:** Yeah, there are some people out there, some professionals that will say women know he’s lying and they’re in denial. I 100% do not agree with that. I think that’s victim blaming. Sometimes we don’t know. Sometimes we might sense something, but we take it to our abuser and he manipulates us. And that’s why I wrote [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). it takes women step-by-step through a process that allows us to see the truth. Because he purposefully hides it from us sometimes. He wants us to separate from our gut feelings. Do you want to expand on that a little bit? Cause I’ve heard so many people say she’s just in denial, or she knew in her gut. Or she wasn’t in touch with herself. And I think women are in touch with themselves. It’s just the manipulation has caused such a fog. ## Boundaries & Trust **Cindy:** I could expound on this for days. Because I’ve been in the same boat, and you’re absolutely right. We are put in a position where somebody can criticize it no matter what we do. I wanted my marriage to make it, to give recovery a chance. I don’t have any regrets. Because I know that to have given my marriage a chance, I had to learn the boundaries, recognize the red flag. I had to learn to trust my gut. And know about the causes of addiction. And at the same time, if it’s going to work, there’s going to come a day when I have to make myself vulnerable again. To say, I’m willing to extend my trust again, I’m not stupid, knowing that trust could be betrayed again. But if I’m not willing to take that risk again, I may as well call it quits in the beginning. I remember one professional saying, you knew when you walked down the aisle, and I was like, no, I didn’t know. And he said, no, you knew. And I knew right then, and there I couldn’t get help from him. There’s no way I knew. I don’t know how people working with men with addiction or women for that matter can say that, because they know how successful men are in their deceptiveness. So how can I know what is deliberately and systematically kept from me? **Anne:** Yeah, that’s exactly why I created the [Living Free Workshop ](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/)because these are the same professionals you’re talking about. They’ll admit he lied. They’ll acknowledge that. But then they believe what he says after. Like, how can we determine what is the truth? It’s so hard. ![if Your Husband Has an Addiction](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/If-Your-Husband-Has-An-Addiction.webp "if Your Husband Has an Addiction")## A SEX ADDICTION THERAPIST NEAR ME SHOULD KNOW ABOUT EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Cindy:** Right, and I get in trouble with those same professionals after that person accused me of knowing and marrying anyway. Now I’m being accused of not trusting, not forgiving. Why am I assuming there’s a lie? And I’m left confused and thinking nothing I can do is right. **Anne:** It’s also just flat out not logical that we are the causes of addiction. **Cindy:** Right, it’s not. **Anne:** I’m so sorry that happened to you. I mean, they’re talking out of both sides of their mouth, and it makes no sense. Within the context of BTR, when we say the word recover. We’re talking about recovering from the injuries we’ve received from our husband’s abuse through his sexual coercion, using pornography without our knowledge, deceit, manipulation, gaslighting, emotional and psychological abuse. All the abuse that we talk about here at BTR. ## Recovery & Healthy Living **Anne:** So many women who listen to the podcast or come to BTR for our services. They’ve done pornography addiction recovery with their husbands, just like you have. And then 5, 10 or 20 years later, maybe after a therapeutic disclosure or 4 D-Days later, they realized like this is not working. So when you’re talking about your husband being in recovery, the causes of addiction, and an addict’s recovery can you define recovery in that context? **Cindy:** To me, recovery is the process of becoming healthy. The goal is to lead a life. of integrity, healthy emotional coping skills. I’ve always felt like recovery is nothing more than living a healthy life. Recovery is not just now. To get to point B. Recovery is the rest of your life, because once you’ve got it down, it’s about healthy living. So why would we limit healthy living? We want that for the rest of our lives. In more specific terms, what does that look like? Because anyone can say they’re living a healthy life. I think figuring out what a healthy life looks like. What are healthy coping skills? What does he do? **Anne:** In pornography addiction recovery, they’ll tell you to observe if he’s going to a 12 step group, or going to therapy. And that’s an indicator that he’s in recovery. ## Identifying Abusive Behaviors **Anne:** But they don’t actually talk about abusive behaviors generally. Did anyone ever identify the problem as abuse, in your experience? **Cindy:** No, when I had my D-Day. I kind of stumbled across the term trauma, and not right away. I never stumbled across the word abuse. To be honest, it wasn’t until BTR that I can look back on my own situation now and definitely see a cycle of abuse. You know, most people think abuse, and they think physical or even verbal. My husband was always calm and quiet, and he made me look abusive compared to an outsider who didn’t know what was going on because I was very expressive of my anger. Never physical, but I verbalized it, whereas he would maintain a kind of silence. But I know the abusive nature of gaslighting and there was a lot of that. In the end, there was no denying that he knew he was robbing me of my reality. At one point, I told him, if you keep secrets from me, knowing how damaging it is to our relationship and to me, this is abusive and cruel. And to continue to make that choice, I think is abusive and cruel. But no, that lingo was not out there. **Anne:** And I think that’s what’s hurting victims of abuse. We’re trying to get help, but the professionals are digging in the wrong place. When they focus on the causes of addiction. That’s a reference to *Raiders of the Lost Ark* for you kids of the 80s, like me, who watched it 10 million times. They’re digging in the wrong place! So a lot of women, when their husband seems interested in change, are looking for benchmarks. ## Causes of addiction: Benchmarks vs. Safety Behaviors **Anne:** And I recently did a video, it’s floating around on Facebook, if you follow us on [Facebook at Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.facebook.com/BetrayalTraumaRecovery), it’s our guide to boundaries. We have graphics on Facebook and [Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/btr.org_). If you follow us there at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Many of the women we talk to, their guys are going to therapy. They’re going to a recovery group. But because they’re also gaslighting their therapist, many of them are just getting a big ego boost. Or like narcissistic supply from their therapist, and they’re not improving at all. The therapist bases it on perceived causes of addiction. And similarly, with either 12 step group or their accountability group, they go there and they’re like the hero, and they’re not telling them the truth. They’re just getting more narcissistic supply there. We see that all the time. So I want to warn women that what you need to look for, rather than benchmarks, is actual safety behaviors. I teach women how to do that in [The Living Free Workshop. And to get more information, click on this link.](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) **Cindy:** That’s what I meant in the beginning when I mentioned integrity. Because those benchmarks can just be check boxes that get checked off. They don’t add up to anything. There’s no real change in the relationship at home and in the way I’m treated. **Anne:** I’ve heard women share how, when they weren’t being treated better. Even though he was “in recovery” with a sex addiction therapist near me. That he was like, well, I’m working on it, but what can you expect? I’m an addict, kind of a thing. Which basically amounts to he thought he had an excuse to behave that way. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## WHEN SEX ADDICTION THERAPIST NEAR ME ENABLES EXCUSES **Cindy:** It’s really not an either or situation. It implies that either sex addiction is real, or people engage in hurtful behaviors using addiction as an excuse and figuring out the causes of addiction. But in my opinion, both of these can be true. If your husband’s using this as an excuse, it’s not an excuse. It no more justifies the addict’s behavior than alcoholism justifies crashing your vehicle head on into another vehicle and destroying the lives inside. That’s not going to get you out of the consequences for that. It doesn’t mean you’re not responsible. **Anne:** To our listeners, have you wondered if it’s just another excuse or if it’s addiction? We’d love to hear your comments. Scroll down to the bottom of this transcript and you can comment there. We’d love to hear what you have to say. **Cindy:** Now, I want to say in this situation you can accept or not accept that there’s such a thing as sex addiction. And what are the causes of addiction. Either way, we’re affected **Anne:** it would be like a smoker saying, I’m addicted to smoking. And that’s why I smoke in your face, car, bedroom and kitchen. None of those are excuses. So what? It’s not acceptable for you to smoke in my face. **Cindy:** We need to protect ourselves. **Anne:** Yeah, when an addict blames his family of origin, his wife, stressors of his job, oh man, like that happened all the time. I’m cranky and I’m irritable and I’m immature because I have a job. It’s like, no. That’s what I love about Betrayal Trauma Recovery is that we’ve all been there. ## Conflicting Emotions **Anne:** Like the therapist couldn’t understand why I told her my husband is abusive, and he has a pornography addiction, and I don’t want to get divorced. She couldn’t hold those three things in her brain at the same time. Yeah, it was like, well, if he’s abusive, then you want to get divorced. It was sort of like she thought I was crazy. And I thought, no, this is what’s happening. He is abusive, and I don’t want to get divorced. That’s where I’m at. And so many times people, even when I got divorced, they said, oh, well, congratulations since he was abusive. And I’m like, no, not congratulations. I didn’t want to get divorced. That’s where I was. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery our coaches understand that from the beginning. They understand the causes of addiction. **Cindy:** Most of us have experienced these conflicting things. When I found out about my husband’s addiction, I had been a stay at home mom for several years. In the midst of this, I remember personally feeling like I didn’t have any love left. But still not wanting to divorce. I don’t feel guilty about that. That’s part of the trauma I was going through. I had a small child at home. I was lucky that I had a degree to fall back on. But there was a part of me that was just angry and thought, fine, that’s the life you want to live. You live that life, and I’ll continue to let you financially support me, and I’ll live the life I want. ## Causes of addiction: Strength & Resilience **Cindy:** That sounds kind of cold, and I eventually came to the conclusion that wasn’t how I wanted to live my life. When you have financial considerations. And you have children that you don’t want to live apart from, even part time. It’s something that weighs on your heart. People come to all kinds of decisions about how they’re going to handle this based on many reasons. I agree, your coaches are well trained to understand, because they have been there. What I’ve found over and over again is that we are amazingly strong. It takes a lot of strength to pick yourself up from a situation you didn’t cause, you didn’t contribute to, and may not even have been aware of, and go get help for yourself. It’s unfair what we’re going through. But when people hurt us physically or emotionally, the person who hurt us can’t heal us. **Anne:** You know, what’s sad about that is so many women feel they can’t live in their current situation. It’s untenable. But climbing out of the dark deep hole seems so difficult financially and emotionally. The prospect of getting help is scary and overwhelming. I wish life wasn’t like that. But it seems like the only option is either sitting in misery or working ourselves out of it. But there’s no magical thing that’s going to happen that’s going to make everything better once you figure out the causes of addiction. **Cindy:** That’s the part that seems so unfair, but that’s where we find ourselves. I like the way you put that sit in misery or work our way out of it. It’s for us to decide, and we’re the only ones that can make it happen. ## Recovery for Victims **Anne:** Now at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we define recovery for victims as like physical therapy. Or someone recovering from an accident or injury. So not that they’re sick or have some sort of mental disorder or something needing to recover like an addict. But more the recovery from the frame of reference of you’re injured and recovering from your injury. When we use the word recovery in the betrayal trauma context, we’re talking about recovering from someone else’s harming you. You said if you’re not willing to trust again sometime in the future. I also want to share that many women aren’t sure if they’re willing to trust again, but what they’re willing to do is leave the light on. They’re willing to leave the door open just a little bit. Now interestingly enough, many victims, including me, are actually leaving the door open. Not leaving the door open for like remarrying him or anything like that. He’s the one who needs to stop excusing behavior on the causes of addiction. I don’t think I’ll ever unblock him for my phone. But no matter if you’re still married, separated, or divorced. You can move forward with your life and live in reality, and see what he’s going to do is exactly what the Living Free workshop is about. You can move forward with your life focusing on your own dreams and goals. And if he wants to step into reality, awesome. He can at any time. But in the meantime, you’ll have emotional safety. You’ll have psychological safety. And those safety strategies are in my [Workshop](/clarity/) teaches. Thank you so much, Cindy, for sharing your story today. I appreciate you being here. **Cindy:** Thank you, Anne. ![if Your Husband Has a Sex Addiction](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/If-Your-Husband-Has-A-Sex-Addiction.webp "if Your Husband Has a Sex Addiction")## GROOMING **Anne:** We have a member of our community, we’re gonna call her Naomi. Welcome, Naomi. **Naomi:** Thank you **Anne:** Let’s start at the beginning of your story when you were dating. Looking back, how would you describe it? Was there anything happening that would’ve helped, you know, if your husband has a sex addiction? Assuming you knew then what you know now. **Naomi:** I think it was a pretty typical grooming process. He was just really kind. We were friends at first and then it progressed into more. He was very attentive. He was in contact almost like hourly. He was constantly in contact with me. I was always getting text messages and he was always complimentary and kind. Swept me off my feet . After we got married, there would be these Huge outbursts and this anger, and he would say these horrible things, but I quickly learned that if I was in line with what he wanted, that those did not occur as often. And so I very quickly learned to anticipate what might cause angry outbursts. To avoid the name calling and the yelling and throwing things and stuff like that. **Anne:** Which is the purpose of abuse, right? To coerce someone to do what you want, rather than a healthy way of interacting, being honest and asking them nicely and giving them the ability to choose for themselves. Often when you know your husband has a sex addiction, they’ll use coercion in really subtle, even kind ways to stop you from talking about it. When did you discover your husband’s sex addiction? ## DISCOVERY OF A SEX ADDICTION **Naomi:** About three years into our marriage, I discovered He was involved with a woman , and at that point. I was willing to take most of the blame. I had said, obviously I’m not meeting your needs. We need to go see a counselor. We need to go talk to the bishop. Let’s work this out. And so he at that point acknowledged that there was pornography use going on. I am pretty smart and I’m quick with computers. And so I would check up on him a lot and He’s also very smart and very, very good with computers. And so he quickly learned how to avoid getting caught. So we kind of played this game for a while where I would check up on him a lot, but eventually I couldn’t catch him anymore because he figured out all the ways that I was checking up on him and he found ways around them. And then about four years later, I found him involved with a girl at work and there were other women in between and so we separated. I was staying with my parents and the two bishops that I worked with, they really wanted me to just work it out with him. I didn’t know what else to do. And he was very good at convincing me at times that he was going to change things, we’re going to get better. So I stayed and then I caught him involved with a girl again she was staying in his hotel. And so at that point, I said, we need a separation. That’s the point when, for the very first time, addiction was brought up. **Anne:** So was this from a therapist they didn’t help you identify the abuse, but they said he had a sex addiction? **Naomi:** So we had been to therapists, we went to therapists the whole time, through 11 years. But I didn’t know I was being abused, and I didn’t know it was an addiction either. They never said the word addiction. It was just a pornography problem. Something that he needed to address. At that point, I discovered a lot more about addiction. Gaslighting, table turning, grooming. ## GASLIGHTING **Anne:** Can you give some examples of how he would Gaslight you? **Naomi:** One of the first ones that comes to my mind: I would feel like something was wrong, and I always felt like something was wrong, but every once in a while I would just feel it really strongly. And so I’d be like, is everything okay? Is there something going on maybe that you need to tell me about? He would say, you know, eventually you’re going to figure out that that’s just your paranoia or he would question everything I said. Because he is genuinely a very, very intelligent person. It would leave me feeling like maybe I was crazy. Maybe it was me. He would turn things around and he would say other people could see it as well. We were separated. And he was claiming it was going to get better. But when I started to set boundaries. at that point, he decided that I was holding him back and he left. He did not file for a divorce, but he asked me to do it. I didn’t want a divorce, but I did what he wanted. It did end up being good for me, to let go and say, this isn’t my problem anymore. But I didn’t want to at the time, and I was devastated. I didn’t recognize Gaslighting as abuse. It took me until after the divorce that I really started to recognize that there was abuse that there was anything other than pornography use. I was reading actually one of the articles that you had put out there and it was talking about ways that you could recognize someone that was working addiction recovery . As I was going through, I started recognizing just a whole bunch of different things that had gone on and that were still kind of going on even in my interactions with him after the divorce. So that’s when I really recognized. Before that, I had had therapists advise me to read a book, and I read the book, and it was just after we had separated. ## WHEN THE SEX ADDICTION THERAPIST NEAR ME MISLABELS YOU **Naomi:** Two to three months after, and I read the book, but I thought, you know, this doesn’t really seem like me. And then, after I had read your article, I read it again and I was like, holy cow, this is exactly me. He would attack me, but at the end of his attacks, when I was upset, he’d be like, You just hate that someone else thinks differently than you, and you can’t control what they think. And I would believe him because I was feeling upset by that point. And so I’d be like, yeah, I feel upset about what he’s thinking. I didn’t recognize the attack that had happened. That was actually the cause of what I was feeling. He never said anything directly. He never said, you’re stupid. He just said, everyone else gets it and you don’t. but there were times when I had really great clarity and I started to realize that I didn’t deserve because I would feel guilty. And then I started listening to different things, your podcasts. And I started recognizing slowly. He wasn’t very nice. It wasn’t very good. And I started recognizing my feelings and emotions. I just had to bury them deep so that I could just get through each day. So they started coming out, you know, as I’d remember things. and think about things or things would be different and I would notice that I was happy in it. I hadn’t felt that in a while. I would recognize why and it was because as I got away from his abuse , I started to have more confidence in myself. ## REALIZING THE TRUTH ONCE YOU’RE OUT **Naomi:** I didn’t feel like I constantly had to please someone else or there were going to be huge repercussions. As I started to gain confidence in myself, my relationship with my children became even better and it was pretty good. But they were really struggling and as we worked through it together and just found ways to talk about things that were hurting them inside I began to gain confidence in my mothering skills in everything around me where I hadn’t even realized I didn’t have confidence before listening to podcasts I started to recognize just more and more, Oh my goodness, this was way worse and I think when you’re in the situation at the time you can’t think about how horrible it is because That would just be too hard to handle the situation itself and recognize just how bad it is. For a lot of people, it comes after. **Anne:** Yeah, the most trauma I ever had was after he was out of the home. And I realized how bad it really was. Yeah, it’s shocking. **Naomi:** And it was your podcast. It was the BTR podcast that really helped me to recognize. A lot of times I think the professionals, it’s hard to say abuse. It’s hard to say those words and it’s hard to talk about abuse like grooming, gaslighting, things like that. But it’s really important for the survivor of abuse to hear those words and to understand what really happened to them. And once they do hear those words. It’s life saving, because it helps you recognize why you had the reactions that you did, that it was really that bad. And that’s why you’re feeling the way that you’re feeling. It was really important. **Anne:** Naomi, thank you so much for sharing how discovering your husband’s sex addiction helped you realize that he was abusive to you emotionally, psychologically, and even sexually. Your story will help other women struggling to know if their husband has a sex addiction too. So thank you so much. ![Husband Has a Sex Addiction](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Husband-Has-A-Sex-Addiction.webp "Husband Has a Sex Addiction")## AN ADDICT CAN ALSO BE ABUSIVE **Anne:** I have my friend Kate on with me today. We are just hanging out, chatting. About what is a sex addict called? Like what are you going to call your addict husband? If he’s got an addiction, are you going to say sex addict or will you call it something else? We are talking about that. So to put words in Kate’s mouth quickly, we both agree that pornography is addictive. We both agree that its use is abuse. And then also the behaviors around it, the gaslighting, the lying, the manipulation. All those types of behaviors around it constitute emotional abuse, psychological abuse, and sexual coercion. So we both agree on that point. I prefer to use the word abusive. When we were talking before, Kate said, “No, I actually like the word addiction.” So Kate, can you talk about why you like using the word addiction? **Kate:** I actually like both. I know there are some people out there who are like, maybe it’s not an addiction, maybe it’s a compulsion. So we’ll just get rid of the word addiction and call it all abuse. It does fit the definition of addiction. The research on the brain shows it is an addiction. I like to call it addiction simply because if you call it a compulsion, like some people have been doing, well, anything could be compulsive. Did he eat a cake? Is he compulsive with a cake? Does he bite his nails compulsively? When you say, “Oh, my husband has a compulsive issue.” It just doesn’t hold as much seriousness as addiction does. ## The Seriousness Of Addiction **Kate:** It’s as if somebody who had cancer, were to say, “I have an illness.” Some people might be like, “Oh, is it a serious illness?” Other people might be like, “Oh, maybe it’s just a common cold.” The word addiction has more seriousness than compulsion. As far as either abuse or addiction, I just use both because they feed off each other so much. I don’t think you can have sex addiction without some type of abuse. I don’t know about other addictions. I’ve heard from other people who said their husbands were maybe alcoholics, weren’t sex addicts, and weren’t abusive. I even did a poll once. Ninety-nine percent of betrayed wives experienced some type of abuse from their husbands. **Anne:** I think the pornography use in and of itself is abuse. It’s abusive for trust, it’s abuse of your marriage contract and vows. To be faithful, for example, and not cheat on me. And I consider pornography use to be cheating, and so therefore it’s an abuse of those vows. The reason I’ve dropped the word “addiction” is not because I don’t think it’s addictive. I absolutely think it’s addictive. The reason why I prefer to use the word abuse in all contexts is because addiction, to me, says this is what *he* is experiencing. I’m not so concerned about what he is experiencing. I am more concerned about what the victim is experiencing. There’s the cause, and then there’s the effect. The effect to her, what she feels, and the way she experiences all his behaviors is always abuse. There’s no other word for it. So that’s why I prefer to say this is abuse, because of its effect on the victim of this scenario. ## The Misconception Of Addiction **Anne:** Most of the time, I’ve dropped the word addiction completely, and I always call it abuse. I don’t want people to get the wrong impression that I don’t think it’s addictive, because I do. I just think the word abuse really gets to the heart of what the wife is going through, rather than focusing on him and what he’s going through. For me, anytime someone says the word “addiction”, there’s this, oh, poor him, he’s got an addiction. If someone tells the story, “This guy stole this car, he rammed into this stuff, he went around and he did all these bad things!” People would be horrified. Oh, wow, what a jerk or something. But if you say, “They got addicted to cocaine when they were young. Then they stole a car, they ran over a bunch of people.” You say the same exact stuff, and they’re like, “He was addicted to cocaine.” I just don’t want there to be any pity for the addict. because they feed off of that and use that to victim blame and groom other people. So I prefer not to use the word addict to help keep victims safe. This is abuse, and I don’t care if you’re an addict or not. Who am I to say how you are experiencing this? What I’m concerned about is how your behaviors affect me. **Kate:** Oh, I love that. I love you said that. I use the word addiction mostly when I interact with other women. There are times to use the word addiction, but yes, the main focus is what is happening to you is abuse. It’s not addiction that’s happening to you, it’s abuse. ## Seeking Safety Over Marriage **Anne:** Yeah, if a woman describes to me what is happening to her. And then she asks, Is my husband a sex addict? I’d be like, I don’t know. whether he’s an addict or not, but what I know is these behaviors you’ve just described are abuse. And we have thousands of women in our community. And my concern is that the words we use determine their next steps. The word addiction is dangerous because the first thing that comes to mind is 12 step recovery program. She’s always been resisting this type of abuse. And she feels like a recovery program keeping her family together will be the safer route. She is doing what she’s supposed to do. She’s trying to get help. If she hears the word abuse, rather than try and keep her “marriage safe.” She’s going to think I need to be safe. How can I get myself to safety? **Kate:** Completely different. **Anne:** I would say it’s the victim’s first attempt to get to safety. She is trying to see if he goes to a 12-step program, or if he does this or that, will that make her safer? Meaning, will that change him into a safe person? She hopes through her attempts for safety, he will turn from being an unsafe person to being a safe person. Technically speaking, if he did that, it would solve her safety problem. The unfortunate thing is, he just starts grooming more or lying more. It actually creates less safety. And she doesn’t know that. **Kate:** If you think about it, you can even say, “Yes, your husband is being abusive.” ## The Problem With The Addiction Model **Kate:** They’re trying to be proactive about their lives, so they’re going to go online, they’re going to search things like, my husband needs help. Where’s the help?” There will be more help in the sex addiction field. **Anne:** For their husband? **Kate:** Yes. **Anne:** Because everyone uses the addiction model. Let’s talk about why it’s scary. How would you describe it? **Kate:** I’ll start at the beginning. First off, when people think of addiction, they think, “Oh, he can’t help it.” That is actually not accurate. There were even people back before AA started who believed they couldn’t help it. Yes, they have a brain disease in some aspects. You can verify that with brain scans, but it is a self-inflicted disease. If a smoker smokes 12 packs a day and got lung cancer, would that smoker be like, “I can’t stop smoking. The cancer is making me do it. I can’t go and get treatment because the cancer is not letting me.” No, everyone would be like, that’s insane. So why is it that we do that when it comes to addiction? “They can’t because they got a disease. They can’t help it.” So that is like the foundation of many of the whole addiction world; especially sex addiction. No, no, no, they still have agency. They still have choice. It is a self-inflicted disease. Their choices caused it, not the reverse. The sex addiction world hijacks it and makes it even more ridiculous. **Anne:** With the sex addiction model, they don’t really know what to do with the victim. They say they use the trauma model, but then they won’t admit where the trauma is coming from. They refuse to say she’s traumatized by abuse. ## Victim Desensitization In Therapy **Kate:** Yo, it’s awful. It is awful. You say the word abuse in the sex addiction industry, and they’re like, \[gasp!\] “How dare you say that! You’re shaming the addict!” What? I’m literally stating a behavior they’re doing. You guys are making it worse. The whole industry is addict centric. **Anne:** Yes, it is not victim centric. **Kate:** It is not at all. Even if somebody says they’re a betrayal trauma therapist, if they’re coming from the sex addiction industry, it means they’re still in the addiction industry, still addict centric. It’s like, “We’re going to help you handle your trauma *so you can help your husband*… or *so you’re not shaming your husband*… or *so you’re not triggering your husband so he can get into recovery*.” That’s not what it should be at all. **Anne:** Or, *so your husband’s abusive behaviors aren’t triggery to you*. That’s the thing I see the most. For example, the husband is still abusive, and the sex addiction professional. Not somebody at our organization, Betrayal Trauma Recovery, but a so-called “betrayal trauma expert” will be like, “You’re just still being traumatized from the past when he used to use pornography. Now he’s not using it anymore, so I don’t know why when he says these things to you, it’s upsetting. You’re just being triggered, so let’s work on *your* triggers.” They’re not recognizing he’s gaslighting her, he’s manipulating her, still emotionally and psychologically abusing her. And she’s still a victim of sexual coercion. You should not help a victim become desensitized to abuse. It feels like that is what the sex addiction industry is trying to do in their treatment of victims. desensitize you to this abuse. ## The Danger Of Mislabeling Abuse **Anne:** “Let’s help you be tolerant of the abuse, because otherwise your marriage will fall apart. You want to keep your marriage, right?” Instead of saying, “You’re a victim of abuse. He is an abuser.” The worst case scenario is happening right now. The worst case scenario isn’t divorce, let’s get you to safety. They refuse to go there. **Kate:** They refuse. I can’t even count how many friends I’ve had who have gone to very popular, and you know who I’m talking about. Very popular betrayal trauma companies, whatever organizations, and they’ve had therapists. **Anne:** That aren’t us. Let’s say that. **Kate:** She had just spent long months trying to convince her husband it’s abuse, and he finally believes it. Then you have a therapist saying, in front of the husband, “Your husband’s not abusing you. No, what your husband did to you is not abuse.” What’s going to happen? I guarantee the husband will be more abusive. He’s going to be more entitled. He’d be like, “Oh, I’m not abusive. A therapist said so!” It is so dangerous and so damaging to do that. **Anne:** Two of the things the pornography addiction recovery world asks of a spouse of an addict. Or a victim of abuse would be number one, to not shame him, and number two, connect with him. I think it’s all they’ve got. They can’t think of anything else to say. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## Shame & Its Misinterpretation **Anne:** They have to pretend like it’s not that big of a deal, so that she’ll stay. Because they’re worried about her leaving. They don’t want his support system leaving him, because it could be bad for him. But they never stopped to think, is it good for her? In the pornography addiction recovery world, the main concern of these professionals is him. Their main concern is not her. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, our main concern is her. Is she safe? Is she okay? Does she have her needs met? Kate and I, again, I’ll put words in your mouth here, but we don’t actually think that shame is even a thing. Everybody feels shame. Some people feel shame, and they eat ice cream. And some people feel shame, and they go for a run. Some people feel shame, and they start crying. Shame is not the cause of someone looking at pornography. **Kate:** It does not. It does not cause it. You have men who feel no shame for watching it. They did not grow up in religious culture. They did not grow up with any outside source saying it is bad. And yet they’re still having issues with it. **Anne:** Exactly, they don’t feel shame, but they use shame to activate *your* shame to make you feel bad or guilty to manipulate you. The problem isn’t their overwhelming shame, it’s their lack of shame. Of course, to other people, they have to act like they have shame; otherwise, they would seem like monsters. There are also men who don’t look at pornography when they feel shame. ## Healthy Shame **Anne:** Shame is a normal human emotion that should not be avoided at all costs or that we should be striving to reduce. It’s something that happens that we need to be healthy about. A healthy person deals with their shame in healthy ways. An unhealthy person deals with their shame in unhealthy ways, but it’s not the cause of anybody’s behavior. Yes, I understand where people have become more obsessed about the whole shame thing. If you talk about the actual dictionary definition of shame, it is not always bad. Brene Brown’s definition, shame is not good. But it can be healthy. **Anne:** To put this in perspective, Brene Brown is trying to help people deal with their own shame. She’s not trying to help people deal with other people’s shame. But some people are actually bad people. **Kate:** Yes. **Anne:** If somebody skis every Saturday, they’re a skier. If someone plays tennis twice a week, they are a tennis player. If someone runs track and does baseball and all kinds of things, they’re an athlete. You are what you choose to do. So if someone is continually lying, they’re a liar. If someone continually uses pornography, they’re a pornography user. The Bible and whatever scriptures you use have a word for this. It is called wicked. There is nowhere in the scriptures I have ever seen that says, “He was wicked because he felt shame. Then this wicked person stopped being wicked because they said, “You’re not a bad person; you’re not a wicked person, just these things you’re doing are wicked.” No, in the scriptures, it actually says they are a wicked person. ## Scriptural Perspective On Wickedness **Anne:** They are wicked because they choose evil things over and over again. Part of the accountability, honesty and authenticity is for these men to actually recognize I *technically* really am a bad person. **Kate:** “You can’t say someone’s a bad person! That’s not who they are!” **Anne:** Your behavior defines who you are. **Kate:** So you’re saying Alfred Kinsey is not a bad person? I’m pretty sure we can call him a bad person. I can call him a bad, disgusting person because he was. It doesn’t mean they were always bad, and that doesn’t mean they can’t change. But right now, yeah, what they did, they are a bad person. Like we can’t call them bad, it actually makes it worse and fuels the problem. **Anne:** Listen to the scripture: “I say unto you, nay, except you make our creator a liar from the beginning, or suppose he is a liar from the beginning. You cannot suppose such can have a place in the kingdom of heaven, but they shall be cast out for they are children of the kingdom of the devil.” There are other scriptures that say he is a child of hell. That probably wouldn’t be the wisest thing to say, but technically speaking, their choices have created a wicked character. They literally are a wicked person. It never says anywhere in the scriptures, “They were wicked so we did not shame them. We told them, no, you’re not wicked you’re not bad, You’re good. And then they stopped being wicked.” Then the advice, our loving Heavenly Father cast them out. In the scriptures, you will find it. It is all over the place. ## Adults vs. Children In Accountability **Kate:** I will add, just in case, because I’m guessing some people might listen to this and be like, “Wait a minute, but I grew up thinking I was a bad kid and it didn’t help me.” We’re not talking about children. We are talking about grown men, grown people who know better. **Anne:** We’re talking about people who genuinely are making very sad decisions and hurting people. Children are just trying to figure stuff out. Children aren’t wicked. **Kate:** Children are not bad. Whereas, an adult with a developed brain who knows better, he’s choosing to. You can always tell when they know better, because do they do this in front of their boss? Friends? Do they mistreat you like this in front of somebody else? If the answer is no, he knows what he’s doing. Unless he has some anger issue where he’s angry, literally to everyone, then maybe he really does legit have some disorder. I would also say it’s not because of his childhood either. I used to even believe this, but the research actually does not show that. The research shows that when someone’s abusive, it’s because of entitlements, misogyny, that there are choices, not because of their childhood. **Anne:** We all know people who have had a hard childhood, who are healthy adults. The response is, “I know someone who went through a similar experience to yours, and they’re not abusive to their wife.” **Kate:** Exactly, thankfully, the anti-abuse industry is starting to recognize this. They’re starting to teach us that. He’s not an addict, because he drank too much, or because he had childhood trauma; that’s not why he’s abusive. It is because of entitlements and misogyny. ## If He’s Lying To You, It Hurts You **Anne:** Yeah. Well, no matter what you call it. Those behaviors are abusive to you. And so that’s why I like calling it abuse. Listeners, what do you think? Comment on this podcast transcript below. Let me know what you think. Kate. You’re awesome. Thanks for hanging out today. ![Husband Has an Addiction](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Husband-Has-An-Addiction.webp "Husband Has an Addiction")## I Believed Him When He Said He Said He’d Get Recovery For His Addiction One of the most painful aspects of being married to a addict is struggling to determine if he’s telling the truth. Why? - Sex addicts are very persuasive. - The grooming/love-bombing process is a relief from overtly abusive behaviors, and distracts victims from identifying abuse. - Men with sex addictions skillfully manipulate others and say exactly the right things to appear repentant and willing to change. Women in this situation [often struggle with their addict husband’s](https://www.btr.org/how-to-deal-with-angry-husband/) claims that they are naive, stupid, or desperate. As women learn about the trauma his behavior has caused, they empower themselves to [voice their stories](https://www.btr.org/voicing-the-agony-of-betrayal-trauma/) and feelings. This paves the way for healing. Further, when a woman understands all the facets of how his addiction affects her, she’s able to [make decisions](https://www.btr.org/boundaries-in-marriage/) to protect herself. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we understand the struggle to know if your husband has aN addiction. [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions ](https://www.btr.org/group/)offer women the validation, support, and community that they deserve. Attend a session today and begin your healing journey. ## Grooming and The Early Signs of aN Addiction **Anne:** Let’s start at the beginning of your story when you were dating. Looking back. How would you describe it? Was there anything happening that would have helped you know if your husband has an addiction had you known then what you know now? **Naomi:** I think it was a pretty typical grooming process. But I didn’t know how to tell if [my husband was grooming me.](https://www.btr.org/is-my-husband-grooming-me/ "my husband was grooming me. ") He was just really kind. We were friends at first and then it progressed into more. He was very attentive and in contact almost hourly. I always got text messages, and he was always complimentary and kind. He swept me off my feet. ## Discovering the truth, how to know if your husband has an Addiction **Naomi:** About three years into our marriage, I discovered he was involved with a woman. At that point, I was willing to take most of the blame. I had said, obviously I’m not meeting your needs. We need to go see a counselor. We need to talk to the bishop. Let’s work this out. And so he acknowledged he was using pornography. I am pretty smart and I’m quick with computers. I checked up on him a lot. He’s also very smart and very, very good with computers, and so he quickly learned how to avoid getting caught. So we kind of played this game for a while, where I would check up on him a lot, but eventually I couldn’t catch him anymore because he figured out all the ways that I was checking up on him and he found ways around them. ![Why Do Men Abuse Women?](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/oprz6NkSKGw/maxresdefault.jpg) ## the patterns to know if your husband has an addiction **Naomi:** And then about four years later, I discovered he was involved with a girl at work, and there were other women in between, so we separated. I was staying with my parents. The two bishops I worked with really wanted me to work it out with him. I didn’t know what else to do, and he was good at convincing me that he was going to change things, and that things were going to get better. So I stayed, and then I caught him involved with a girl again. She was staying in his hotel. And so at that point, I said, we need a separation. That’s the point when someone brought up my husband’s addiction for the very first time. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## When a therapist doesn’t know if your husband has an addiction **Anne:** So was this from a therapist? They didn’t help you identify the abuse, but they said your husband has an addiction? **Naomi:** So we had been to therapists, we went to therapists the whole time, through 11 years. But I didn’t realize he was abusing me, and I didn’t think my husband has an addiction either. They never said the word addiction. It was just a pornography problem. Something that he needed to address. At that point, I discovered a lot more about sex addiction. Gaslighting, table turning, grooming. ## Understanding Gaslighting **Anne:** Could you provide examples of how your [husband was gaslighting](https://www.btr.org/husband-gaslighting/ "husband was gaslighting") you? **Naomi:** One of the first ones that comes to my mind is when I sensed something was wrong. I always felt like something was wrong, but every once in a while I would just feel it strongly. And so I’d be like, is everything okay? Is there something going on maybe that you need to tell me about? He would say, you know, eventually you’re going to figure out that that’s just your paranoia or he would question everything I said. Because he is genuinely a very, very intelligent person. It would leave me feeling like maybe I was crazy. Maybe it was me. He would turn things around, and he would say other people could see it, as well. ## Separation **Naomi:** We separated, and he still claimed it was going to get better. But when I set boundaries, he decided I was holding him back, and he left. He did not file for a divorce, but he asked me to do it. I didn’t want a divorce, but I did what he wanted. ## How to know if your husband is recovering from a sex addiction **Naomi:** It was good for me to let go and say, this isn’t my problem anymore. But I didn’t want to at the time, and I was devastated. I didn’t recognize gaslighting as abuse. It took me until after the divorce to recognize that there was abuse, that there was anything other than pornography use. I read one of the articles you had put out there, and it was talking about ways to recognize whether someone was actually working addiction recovery. I started recognizing a bunch of things that were still going on in my interactions with him after the divorce. Before that, I had had therapists advise me to read a book. As I read the book, I thought, you know, this doesn’t really seem like me. And then, after reading your article, I read it again and I was like, holy cow, this is exactly me. He would attack me, but at the end of his attacks, when I was upset, he’d say things like, “You just hate that someone else thinks differently than you, and you can’t control what they think.” And I would believe him, because I was feeling upset by that point. And so I was like, yeah, I feel upset about what he’s thinking. I didn’t recognize that his attack was actually the cause of what I was feeling. But there were times when I had great clarity, and I realized that I didn’t deserve to feel guilty. And then I started listening to different things, like your [betrayal trauma podcasts](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/why-is-my-husband-constantly-on-his-phone-the-research/id1118969643?i=1000408857873). And I started recognizing slowly that he wasn’t very nice, and I started recognizing my feelings and emotions. ## The emotional toll when you know if your husband has an addiction I buried my emotions deep so that I could just get through each day. But they started coming out, you know, as I’d remember things and think about things that would be different. I noticed I was happy, and I hadn’t felt that in a while. It was because I got away from his abuse and had confidence in myself. I didn’t feel like I constantly had to please someone else, or there were going to be huge repercussions. My relationship with my children became even better, and it was pretty good. They were struggling, and as we worked through it together, finding ways to talk about things that were hurting them inside. I gained confidence in my mothering skills and everything around me, where I hadn’t even realized I hadn’t had confidence before. While listening to [betrayal trauma podcasts](https://open.spotify.com/show/54IhlM7JEJXK3geocKn2hG?si=829fe0165e114670), I started to recognize just more and more and thought, Oh my goodness, this was way worse. I think when you’re in the situation at the time, you can’t think about how horrible it is, because that would be too hard to handle the situation itself and recognize how bad it is. ## Final Reflections on how to know if your husband has an addiction **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [How Do You Know When Your Marriage is Over? 3 Ways](https://www.btr.org/how-do-you-know-when-your-marriage-is-over/) **Published:** October 3, 2023 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Many women in emotionally abusive marriages ask, Is my marriage over​? 3 things to know **Content:** One of the questions I often hear women in our community grappling with is, “how do you know when your marriage is over​?” The answer I hear many women give is that you’ll know if and when it’s time. The truth is, there is no “right” answer or clear path for every woman facing this question, but there are a few things you can keep in mind while contemplating. If you’re asking this question, it’s likely your husband is using emotional abuse tactics. To discover if your husband uses any of the 19 types of emotional abuse, take our [free emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ## 3 WAYS: HOW DO YOU KNOW WHEN YOUR MARRIAGE IS OVER​ ### ****1.** YOU NO LONGER TRUST HIM TO TELL THE TRUTH** Many women in our community describe a moment in their marriage when they no longer trust their husbands. Maybe it’s something even really small, and they realize this is never gonna change. Not all women choose to leave their marriage when they have this experience. How do you know when your marriage is over​? When they have this experience, something shifts inside of them. And they know they’re no longer dealing with the marriage they thought they were. ### **2.** HE WANTS TO SAVE THE MARRIAGE, BUT HE WON’T STOP HIS HARMFUL BEHAVIOR Many emotionally abusive men will use a show effort to “save the marriage” to manipulate their victims. They might agree to go to marriage counseling or join an addiction recovery group. They’re not doing it because they care about the harm that they’ve caused to their wife and children. They’re doing it to manipulate her to maintain the relationship. What he really wants is the consequences to stop. He wants things to go back to the way they were before she knew about his betrayal and lies. ### 3. THE COST OF ENGAGING WITH HIM BECOMES GREATER THAN THE COST OF DISTANCE Often, when women ask, “how do you know when your marriage is over​?”, they’re waiting for like one final piece of proof maybe or some kind of confirmation. But the truth is they already have enough information. How does it feel to engage with him? Do you start realizing it’s just not worth it? That can be a really big sign. No matter what the specifics are, many women describe this as a tipping point where they just knew they couldn’t continue to engage with him in the way they did before. And they realize that marriage as they knew it is over whether they leave or not. ## WHAT’S NEXT IF YOU’RE ASKING “HOW DO YOU KNOW WHEN YOUR MARRIAGE IS OVER​?” If you’re asking, “How do you know when your marriage is over​?” Consider taking careful, grounded steps regardless of whether you get a clear answer or not. - Talk to safe people. Choose people who will not minimize emotional abuse, pressure you to reconcile, or rush your timeline. - Document what is happening. Keeping records can help you stay oriented when lies, denial, or manipulation make you doubt your own memory. - Prioritize safety. If there is intimidation, coercion, threats, stalking, sexual pressure, financial control, or fear of retaliation, connect with a domestic abuse advocate or a qualified professional who understands emotional and psychological abuse. - Get [support for betrayal trauma](/group/). You deserve help that centers your safety and healing, not just his recovery. - Consider legal and financial information. Learning your options does not obligate you to act immediately. It simply gives you a flashlight in a dark room. ## FINDING SAFE SUPPORT: HOW DO YOU KNOW WHEN YOUR MARRIAGE IS OVER? Resources like Betrayal Trauma Recovery (BTR) can teach you how to strategically address emotionally abusive patterns in your marriage. [Enroll in The Workshop to learn more.](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) **Key points from this episode:** - [**When Normal Safety Seeking Reveals The Truth**](#emotional-safety-seeking) - [**When The “Good Guy” Version No Longer Feels Real**](#emotional-manipulation) - **[His Recovery Is A Performance, Not Real Change](#can-manipulative-husbands-really-change)** - [**How His Emotional Abuse Makes You Feel Crazy**](#emotional-abuse-awareness) - **[When You Stop Chasing Him And Choose Emotional Safety](#emotional-safety-strategies)** ## TRANSCRIPT: how do you know when your marriage is over​ **Anne:** Welcome to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, this is Anne. I have Tera Lynch on today’s episode. She’s a mother school nurse, spiritual seeker, an accidental comedian. With a heart as big as her laugh and resilience forged in the fire of betrayal, she shares her story to uplift others who navigate the hardest transitions. Like how do you know when your marriage is over​​. *[The Orange Post-It Note](https://amzn.to/4AwOVMd)* is her memoir, mission, and love letter to everyone learning to live and laugh again. Welcome, Tera. **Tera:** Thank you Anne. **Anne:** It is so great to have you here. So let’s start at the beginning. How did you feel about your husband when you first met him? **Tera:** Oh, very quickly, madly in love. He was so attentive, Mr. Adventure, supportive man. I was divorced and had three kids. I was in nursing school. We dated for 10 years. He was Mr. Hand Holder, car door opener, evening planner, sous chef. We didn’t fight. We just got along. Our trouble started when he started traveling Monday through Friday to New York City for work. And I didn’t like it, but it was where he needed to be. **Anne:** Where did you guys live? **Tera:** We lived in a suburb outside of Chicago. He would fly out Monday morning and come home Friday night. We always just picked up right where we left off. And we were so happy to see each other. We knew what was going on in each other’s lives. I missed him desperately, but we made it work, and we stayed in the honeymoon phase for a lot longer than many other couples. ‘Cause as you can imagine on the weekends, you’re so happy to be reunited. And I was so happy when suddenly he was moving back. ## HE SEEMED UNHAPPY AT HOME **Tera:** So he was there for seven years, and right before COVID hit, the business dried up in New York. He worked for a private equity firm, so there were no more opportunities for him to work in New York. And I was ecstatic. I was getting my husband back. I wanted to be the normal couple that took a walk after dinner, and quickly realized he was not happy to be at home, uncomfortable being home. I’m a school nurse, so I eat dinner at six and I’m in bed by nine, and he just wasn’t used to that timeframe. He seemed edgy and a little bit like a caged animal, and I just rationalized that he was making an adjustment. **Anne:** This is the first time he’s lived full-time with you? **Tera:** We dated for 10 years, so I had my house. He had his house, and we saw each other all the time. But right before we married and we bought a home together after our adult kids took off to college. We decided that would be a good time to marry. And that whole time, he was traveling Monday through Friday. So we never really did, now that I think about it, have that married full-time together. But he checked in all the time. He knew what was going on. He would call me at work, so I just felt safe in it all. I didn’t like it. But, uh, he was very good at playing the victim. He was the overworked, underappreciated employee who was always working for some villainous, CEO, who took control over his life. ## HE SPENT A LOT OF TIME ON HIS COMPUTER **Tera:** And he would call me and say, “Oh, I’m at a bodega again, getting a cold piece of pizza and a wilted Caesar salad, and I’m trudging through the door after working a 12, 13, 14 hour day.” So I always felt sorry for him, and when he came home, I’d have hot, homemade meals for him and be the listener at the end of a long day. And he reciprocated all that. His phone was attached to his hand. It was an appendage, and he was always on the computer. And I knew he had OCD tendencies and he overanalyzed everything, so it wasn’t abnormal for him to work like 10 hours on a Saturday or a Sunday on the computer. Then we would have a great time between or afterwards, but I had no idea what he was doing on the computer or the phone. So one night he fell asleep on the couch. And as he laid his phone down, I got a quick glimpse at it. ‘Cause I didn’t have the code to get into it. I never thought to look into his phone. And I saw a picture of a woman, and it said 23 hours ago. And I was like, oh, my God, what’s going on? Because he was this disciplined, loving, doting man. I was like, what? So then I started snooping, quickly found evidence smack dab on the top of his desk. **Anne:** Around here. We don’t call it snooping, we call it safety seeking. You might have felt like you were snooping, but you were definitely sensing that something wasn’t right and you were doing what any smart person would do. For women asking, “How do you know when your marriage is over?” this is often where the answer begins. ## how do you know when your marriage is over​ – I DID A LOT OF SAFETY SEEKING **Tera:** I was, and I entered a world I did not know existed, the websites, the alias names. It was shocking to me.I would type in long codes into Google search and Bingo, there it was. He’s on this site, he’s on this site, he’s on this site, and then all these alias names and I didn’t know if it was his name or her name. And still all the while in shock. I just couldn’t fathom that this man was doing this. **Anne:** Yeah. **Tera:** So I did a lot of safety seeking, and I was really married to a Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde type of person. Because had I not done the Quistodio app and the find my phone and got the code to his phone. And did some recording on occasion when I just felt like something wasn’t right. That’s how I learned the truth, because he was such a master liar. And like I said, we didn’t fight, we didn’t argue, we didn’t quarrel. We just got along, and I confronted him immediately. They only tell you as much as you know. And that became apparent. And if I had one little fact wrong, the whole thing was wrong. So I had to be very correct with everything I was saying. **Anne:** Let’s go back to the Jekyll and Hyde idea for just a minute. That’s something that so many women describe. I’ve talked about it in my free email course, and I actually have a book coming out soon. So in my book, I outline why this is. ‘Cause many people describe it, but they don’t understand what’s causing it. So I wanna talk about that for just a second. ## HE WANTED TO BE LEFT ALONE **Anne:** In my experience, my theory, and I think I’m right or I wouldn’t tell the world this. Is that it’s not so much that they’re changing their mind or have two different personalities. It’s that they are using whatever lie they think will work to get them what they want in that moment. **Anne:** So in that moment, if they think, okay, if I get mad at her, she’ll leave me alone, and they wanna be left alone. Then you’ll see Mr. Hyde, and he’ll be the mean one. Then that will cause you to push away, and he’ll go work in his office or something like that. If he wants to be alone, let me put it that way. And then you’ll see Dr. Jekyll, the good guy, when he’s lying to groom you when he wants you to come with him to his work party. When he wants other things like that. So for him, his internal way of dealing with his wife is not so much relating as a person and having a relationship. It’s a series of transactions. If I act this way, I’ll get this result. If I act this way, I’ll get this result. And to us, it seems completely random, because we don’t know what result he’s going for. We don’t know what his goals are ’cause they’re hidden. And for women asking, “how do you know when your marriage is over​?” this is one of the hardest parts to face. When he plays the Dr. Jekyll part, it feels good, comforting, loving, that it’s really hard to wrap your head around the fact that you may not know any part of him the way you thought you did. ## I FELT CONDITIONED TO LEAVE HIM ALONE **Anne::** It’s really hard to wrap your head around the fact that you don’t know any part of him, the good part or the bad part. Could you talk about that for a minute? **Tera:** It was different for us because he did all his acting out when he was away, in a different city. Even though I think he was acting out when he was home. I felt conditioned to leave him alone when he worked. And I think there was some grooming there. He knows I’m a person with a lot of interests, and I could keep myself busy all day and at hobbies. I just didn’t bother him until it was about late afternoon, and I would check in and he’d be like, “Hey, what’s going on?” It’s our Saturday night. What are we gonna do? Let’s make some plans. And then that would pull him away, and we would have our fun, and we’d have a fun evening, and we’d have a great morning. But then the next day he’d go into the office under the pretense that he was working all day. So my Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde was Mr. Fun, Mr. Wonderful, Mr. Present, Mr. Engaged. And then Mr. Hyde was now I have to work, so you do your thing and I’ll do my thing. **Anne:** So it was very subtle because it wasn’t getting mad at you to get some space, but he used work as the lie to get space or get [out of help with housework](/when-your-husband-doesnt-help-with-housework/). **Tera:** Very much so. So heartbreaking, he immersed himself in recovery immediately. **Anne:** When you say recovery, are you talking about sex addiction, recovery? ## HOW DO YOU KNOW WHEN YOUR MARRIAGE IS OVER – AFFAIR DISCLOSURES **Tera:** Yes, in the first disclosure, I learned how bad it was. It was a 20 page document with a chart with over 20 women that he had relations with, mostly through Ashley Madison. So he was connecting with other married women who also didn’t wanna be found out and had serial affairs. He said there was no romance. He said it was transactional. It was easier and safer for him. **Anne:** Said he. **Tera:** Said he, to be with somebody he felt safe with, didn’t have a disease or didn’t wanna confront his wife or employer. Because she was in the same boat. It was just absolutely disgusting and horrifying. So I did crazy things. I like built a shrine of shame on his desk one day, like all the things that were triggering me and he was out of town. So I went to town, and I just started throwing everything that was triggering me on his desk. Anything from United Airlines, top of food boxes, United napkins, airplanes, every hotel notepad, pen, the liquor that he liked to drink of the color orange, orange post-it notes everywhere. I put a huge angel on the middle of the desk and hung his jock strap on it. it. was just a way for me to throw all the triggers I dealt with every day on his desk. And I thought it would be like an art piece that would speak to him, and he was amazed by it. It was something that I challenge any woman to do, it makes you feel good. Just throw it all out there. ## HIS “RECOVERY” WAS A PERFORMANCE **Tera:** And I thought things like that would [get through to him](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/HuqBjuGCQ60) and wake him up to the pain I was in. It was token. Seemed like stuff moved him like that. But he wasn’t. And everything seemed token, I would walk by and he would have his 12-Step book and the Rosary, and some 12-Step chips and all the books he was reading and the workbooks. And then the minute I walked away, I would just see it being brushed aside. I think I’m being played. **Anne:** It was performative. Did he do 12-Step and you said a disclosure, so he had a therapist as well? **Tera:** MmmHmm he had a CSAT. **Anne:** Okay, yeah. **Tera:** He did all that. He didn’t do the 12-Steps or get a sponsor. **Anne:** But he just looked like he did. **Tera:** Yeah, he set it all up that way. He immersed himself in it later, but it was just too late for me. There were slips along the way. He was with a really bad support group that just let him get away with murder. I just didn’t like that support group at all. He had a good CSAT, but he was charming. He could charm anybody, anybody would believe him. And that’s when I began asking, “How do you know when your marriage is over?” I kept it a secret for so long, because I had so much hope. And I thought I could get him back. I thought I could resurrect him from all this. But I just didn’t have the power, and nobody would’ve believed what he was doing. Because he was so charming and funny and kind. It was hard to come out with all that in the end and have people believe me. ## how do you know when your marriage is over​ – SEARCHING FOR MORE TRUTH **Anne:** Yeah, at the time you were going to sex addiction therapy or when he was, did anyone ever mention to you or did you ever process what you’re experiencing as emotional and psychological abuse or sexual coercion, or did anybody ever point it out to you? **Tera:** No, the hypervigilance was so taxing. **Anne:** ‘Cause what he was doing was emotional and psychological abuse. **Tera:** It took me a long time to put that name on it. **Anne:** Were you gonna tie in hypervigilance into that? **Tera:** Yeah, to me, I answered the question, “how do you know when your marriage is over?” when I knew it was abuse. That’s what it did to me. It made me become this person that I wasn’t. I needed to find the truth, and I wasn’t getting it from him. So what he was doing caused me to do that, and that was so abusive, because that’s not who I am. I’m not that person. I don’t wanna be that person. I don’t wanna put my energy there. **Anne:** And the lack of consent, I’m assuming that when he came home on the weekends, you were intimate at times. **Tera:** Yeah, very intimate. **Anne:** So you’re being intimate with a man who isn’t giving you the information that you need for you to actually consent to the relationship that you’re in. You think the relationship is a certain way and don’t see [red flags](/silent-red-flags-in-a-relationship/), but that is like full on sexual coercion. Which is so fascinating to me that most sex addiction therapists don’t point that out right out of the gate. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## When Emotional Abuse Makes You Feel CRAZY **Anne:** Like what you’ve experienced is emotional and psychological abuse and sexual coercion. This makes you a victim of domestic abuse and ethically, I don’t think it’s a good idea to have a victim of abuse support her abuser’s treatment program. But I’ve never heard a woman, and I’ve interviewed over 200 women who’ve been through this, say that’s what the sex addiction therapist said. In fact, women go through years and years of sex addiction therapy with their husbands, and they’re never told that is what is actually happening, which is shocking to me. And so that’s our mission here at BTR, which is to help women recognize the truth of what’s going on. Because then she can process all levels of abuse and know that the way she reacted was totally normal, because you mentioned hypervigilance. Can you talk about that feeling where you thought you were going crazy, where you thought you were doing things that you didn’t wanna do? **Tera:** I would come home from work, and I would go to the mail, and I would throw out every catalog with a picture of a sexy woman on it. I wouldn’t watch any of the TV shows we used to watch. Because there were attractive women in them. I didn’t even like watching sports with him anymore, because the broadcasters were all so beautiful. I was just trying to get rid of anything that would excite him. Sex sells, and it’s everywhere. I didn’t want him looking at the computer anymore. I didn’t want him looking at LinkedIn anymore. Here are all these women recruiters telling you how awesome you are. ## how do you know when your marriage is over​ – I STOPPED CHASING AFTER HIM **Tera:** They have gorgeous pictures of themselves. You’re not even looking for a job right now. What are you on LinkedIn for? So you can have somebody feeding your ego, telling you how great you are when you’re not even looking for a job. Why are you accepting these recruiter calls? It was everywhere, and I was hypervigilant about it, and I was trying to remove all that external stuff. Which was such a waste of time, because there’s always gonna be another level of it. **Anne:** Right. **Tera:** I spent a lot of energy doing that. One day I just started to get my sense of humor back, and I was like, what are you doing? You are a great woman. Why are you letting this happen to you? It’s time to say goodbye. It’s absurd that you’re chasing after him and trying to remove everything that might excite him. And here you are right in front of him, and he doesn’t see the gift of your [marriage even though it might be hard](/is-marriage-meant-to-be-hard/), and your bond, and your fun, and the family. So I just have to laugh at myself and say, “Why am I spinning my wheels? Why am I on this hamster wheel? Why am I chasing after something that maybe never really even existed in the first place?” How do you know when your marriage is over? **Anne:** The answer is because he lied to you. So it has nothing to do with you. Had he not lied to you in the first place and presented himself as this loving, caring person, you never would’ve done that. No woman wants to be with a man who’s gonna cheat on her constantly and lie to her. ## HE CONTINUED TO LIE **Anne:** So it’s not that you had anything wrong with you that caused you to do that, it’s just that even after you discovered it, he was still continuing to lie about his reasons, about what he was doing, about the whole thing. so that gets really confusing. It makes total sense, because the relationship has been real. Your feelings have been real, you haven’t been lying to him. So your side of it is all completely real. Even though you don’t realize his side of it, it has always been an illusion. So it does feel like, what am I doing? But the answer is that’s what anybody would do. That’s what we’ve all done. **Tera:** It takes time to wrestle with, “how do you know when your marriage is over?” I’m glad the way I did it all the way I did it. Because I was really able to know I did everything I could. **Anne:** Yeah. **Tera:** I immersed myself in recovery work, and I was able to skip away and know that he’s not the man for me. You just have to let this go, and you just have to start over, and you have to love yourself again. You have to get strong. It was important to me to show my daughter not to accept [psychological or other abuse](/psychological-abuse-definition/) in your life, because what was I teaching her? If I stayed with this man who was abusing me? That’s not a good role model. And that [good men exist](/do-good-men-exist/). It’s been great, because she sees me as a strong, capable woman who did it with grace and dignity and started over again. ## HOW DO YOU KNOW WHEN YOUR MARRIAGE IS OVER – FAMILY INTERVENTION **Anne:** And we don’t even have to do it with grace and dignity. We can do it however we want. **Tera:** That’s true. **Anne:** That’s awesome. **Tera:** I had a great support system. I’m lucky. I have three sisters that staged an intervention, and I didn’t know what was happening. I walked into an intervention and they said, “What is going on? Do you have cancer? Where are you? You’ve been so vacant. You’re a shell of yourself. You are too skinny. What’s happening?” And I told them, and they shared that they noticed him ogling other women. And that was the epiphany for me. That was the moment I truly walked away. I needed the people in my life. I had kept it a secret for so long, and it takes such a toll to keep it a secret. My doctor was so worried about me. She was probably the first person I told. She’s like, “What are you doing? Why are you staying with him? Look at your heart rate. Look at your blood pressure. It was always perfect. What’s happening to you?” **Anne:** Yeah. **Tera:** You need a lot of support groups, ’cause you’re gonna exhaust your inner support group asking, “how do you know when your marriage is over?” It’s a lot to ask people. People don’t understand, they think it’s so easy to just walk away and want you to do it in a quicker timeframe with no regrets. Sooner than you’re ready maybe, and I think you have to take your time to do it your way, but remain safe. ## A SUPPORT GROUP IS SO IMPORTANT **Anne:** Yeah, it takes time to process too. I found myself, and I’m around so many women who go through this same thing over and over and they’re wondering, “how do you know when your marriage is over​.” I don’t think they’re ruminating. And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it. It’s just you have to say it out loud, figure it out, and wrap your head around it. And that takes a while, and it’s okay. I couldn’t agree with you more about having a safe support group, because. I remember my sister got so sick of, she loves me, she wanted to talk to me every day, but she just didn’t wanna talk about that all the time. But I needed to talk about it. And so [Betrayal Trauma Recovery group sessions](/group/) here or a support group is so important, because that’s what that’s for. It’s for holding all that and everyone else there is in that same stage, so you’re all in it together, which is great because my sister was not in that spot. It was hard for her to hold all that for me during that time. **Tera:** It is offensive behavior to some people, well to everybody. It makes ’em sick to even think about it or talk about it. But you have to process it, and you believe a little more of the truth every day, and you have to decipher what’s real and what’s a lie. It’s so traumatizing. **Anne:** Yeah. That’s so hard. Good for you. I’m sure writing your book helped you process everything. Are you a writer anyway? I mean, were you a writer before this? **Tera:** No, I’ve always wanted to write a book. I enjoy writing little short stories for myself. ## I JUST STARTED WRITING **Tera:** I just started writing about a chapter here and there about a struggle or an epiphany or a moment of enlightenment or something unconventional I did in dealing with all this. And I just started to put it all together, and I was like, this is a book. This is a story for women stuck like me. That’s a stuck phase where you love ’em and you’re full of hope, but you have all these internal moments and they’re getting to you. You’re eventually gonna get where you need to go while wondering “how do you know when your marriage is over​,” but you have to go through all these odd things until you find your footing. **Anne:** Yeah, you can’t go around it. You can’t go over it, you can’t go under it. You have to go through it. And it’s not fun. It is miserable. **Tera:** It is not fun. Once I had moments of clarity and started to feel a little stronger, I tried to save it, but I couldn’t save it. And it was time to leave, and time to put my big girl pants on and know my financial future would be different. I’m a capable woman, and I need to heal my heart. I need to stop the abuse to go onto the new frontier. **Anne:** Go you! Go Tera, this is awesome! **Tera:** It’s called *The Orange Post-It Note*, because that’s how I found out that He was cheating on me. I was searching for a title for the book, and I’m like, let’s just call it *The Orange Post-It Note*. Let’s call it what it is. ## how do you know when your marriage is over​ – HELPING OTHER WOMEN UNDERSTAND **Tera**: But it has been healing, and my goal in writing was to help other women. Other women who are going through what I’m going through to get through the shame and stigma. And to know you cannot let this define you. This is not who you are. You are an amazing person, and it’s a struggle, and let’s all help each other through this struggle. It’s ugly and messy, not linear. It’s a roller coaster. But we can all get there. **Anne:** Yeah, well, thank you so much for sharing part of your story and for putting your thoughts to paper. I am such a big fan of writing. I think it’s such an important medium for processing things, for sharing thoughts. The way I learned so much is through the process of writing. I write it down and I’m like, did that really happen like that? And for women asking, “how do you know when your marriage is over​?” that pattern recognition is a huge. Sometimes you don’t see the whole picture day by day. But when you write it down, the truth starts to become much harder to ignore. **Tera:** Patterns and your personality come out in your writing. I realized I have a funny outlook on things and a quirky way of getting through situations. It’s a little unique, but I don’t think I would’ve known that about myself unless I took the pen to paper. **Anne:** Yeah, and recognizing our strengths. And also recognizing none of us are perfect. That part of it is great too. I think part of that sex addiction quagmire is thinking, well, if I just communicated better or didn’t trigger him. Or I healed my own triggers, or all this stuff, that things would get better. ## I CAN DO WHATEVER I PUT MY MIND TO DO **Anne:** How do you know when your marriage is over​? When there’s nothing wrong with you in the first place, you’re just fine. It’s just that he’s lying and you don’t know it. So knowing that you’re sure you’re not perfect, but you’re fine. You are okay. And I love what you said, like I’m strong and I’m capable, and I can do whatever I put my mind to, so that’s awesome. I’m really, really happy to talk to you. Is there anything else you’d like to share before we go today? **Tera:** Oh gosh, just listen to your gut, do the safety seeking, because I learned so much while wondering how do you know when your marriage is over​. That if I had just heard him and his explanations and stories, I might have still been in the marriage. The safety seeking helped me find the lies. You can’t hide the proof, they can’t lie to you when you’re showing them the proof. **Anne:** Yeah, so true. It gives you that confidence, so that’s awesome. Well, thank you so much, Tera. I appreciate you coming on, and thank you for sharing your story today. **Tera:** Thank you Anne. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast **Tags:** emotional abuse, gaslighting --- ### [What Does The Bible Say About Cheating? The Untold Truth](https://www.btr.org/what-does-the-bible-say-about-cheating-husbands/) **Published:** November 8, 2022 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Ever wondered what the Bible says about cheating husbands? You need to know this. **Content:** If you’ve just discovered your husband lied to you and was cheating, and you’re wondering what does the [Bible say about cheating husbands](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/fEnnw4F6Lq8)? This is for you. Every woman is welcome at BTR no matter what her faith paradigm. A lot of women of faith come to BTR in a spiritual crisis because of how their clergy responded to their husband’s infidelity or lying, and part of their healing is processing what the Bible actually says about these betrayals. Here’s the truth that you’ve likely never heard anywhere else. ## WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT LYING Since cheating and infidelity involve lying on every level, what they do with their time, what they’re thinking, how they’re using their phone, lying is really the heart of this. One thing a cheating husband really lies about is the reason he lies, and usually blames that on his wife. He’ll accuse her of things she didn’t do, attribute motivations to her that she doesn’t have. He may try to get the kids in [reunification therapy](https://www.btr.org/what-you-need-to-know-about-reunification-therapy/). This is called false witness in the scriptures. *Exodus 20:16 – 16 Thou shalt not bear false witness.* *Psalm 101:7 – He that worketh deceit shall not dwell within my house: he that telleth lies shall not tarry in my sight.* God does not like lying. He wants His followers to be treated with honesty and respect. If your husband is lying to you even by [love bombing](/hes-love-bombing-you/), it means he is not treating you in a safe or kind way. ## WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT CHEATING ONLINE What does the Bible say about cheating when it’s “JUST” in the form of inappropriate media online? For example, if he’s lying to you about how he’s using his computer, phone, or time, and lusting after women, supporting an exploitative industry where women are used and coerced. At the very least, this is adultery. *Exodus 20:14 – Thou shalt not commit adultery.* *Matthew 5:28 – 28 But I say unto you, that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.* *2 Corinthians 6:14,17 – Be ye not unequally yoked…for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?…Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.* If you’re husband has been using pornography, it’s adultery. If you’re experiencing this, you need support. Attend a [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY](/group/). To determine if he has the type of wicked character that God says we need to separate ourselves from, learn more about [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop](/clarity/). ## WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT FORGIVENESS AFTER HE CHEATED Well, in the Bible, forgiveness is more about debt. Like, “Forgive me, My debt as I forgive my debtors.” Debt is something that binds people together. If you don’t forgive someone of their debt, then you’re always constantly thinking “Hey, you owe me this.” And then they stay tied to you. So forgiveness in the scriptures is actually a way to move away from them. *Ezra 10:11 Separate yourselves from the strange \[husbands\].* *Hebrews 7:26 – Who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners* Many women’s situations get worse when their pastors support quick forgiveness and reconciliation with their abusers. Moving away from an abuser may or may not mean divorce, but it certainly means you don’t keep yourself in contact with someone who’s harming you. ## FINDING HOPE FOR JUSTICE, In WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT CHEATING *Deuteronomy 32:4 – 4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.* *Psalm 10:17–18 – 17 Lord, thou hast heard the desire of the humble: thou wilt prepare their heart, thou wilt cause thine ear to hear. To judge the fatherless and the oppressed, that the man of the earth may no more oppress.* *Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end…to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.* ## WHEN CHURCHES GIVE VICTIMS HARMFUL COUNSEL, WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT CHEATING The scriptures have so many examples of how Christ asks us to separate ourselves from evil. And if your husband’s lying to you all the time, deceiving you, that is certainly an act of harm. If you are being harmed in this way, you’re technically a victim of emotional and [psychological abuse, or they may label you](https://www.btr.org/ritual-abuse/). So many faiths say, “Hey, we don’t want you to be abused,” but for some reason if it’s “just” betrayal, you may not identify as a victim of abuse, but it’s important to learn why his lying and infidelity are abuse. Many women in the BTR community received harmful counsel that actually kept them in harm’s way. For example: - Just have more sex with your abusive husband0 - Submit to sex however and whenever he wants you to do it - Divorce is always the devil’s plan; if you decide to divorce your abuser, you are listening to Satan - The church will abandon you if you choose to leave your abuser - If he abuses you, it is because his needs are not met, so be a better “helpmeet” - He uses pornography because you, the victim, are not sexual enough - He lies to you because you are an angry woman - Forgive and forget - Trust him again, right away, in order to save your marriage - There are two sides to every story – be charitable and see your part in this Harmful and downright abusive “counsel” can send victims into a downward spiral. Many victims can become so traumatized by clergy that they face a faith crisis and may feel unable to participate in organized religion at all. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take our[ free emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ## IF YOUR CHURCH HAS HARMED YOU, PRACTICE SELF-COMPASSION If you are or once were a member of a faith community, now facing a faith crisis, or have distanced yourself from church. You may feel ashamed, guilty, and isolated. Know that the secondary trauma you experienced because of ignorant, harmful and/or abusive clergy is not your fault. You trusted your church leaders, and they should have been there for you. They may take what the Bible says about cheating and twist it. When churches don’t believe abuse victims, it is crushing. Some have even been victims of [ritualistic abuse](/ritual-abuse/). Please practice self-care, seek support, and douse yourself in compassion. The [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group](/group/) is here for you. Join today and begin your journey to healing. - [How betrayal trauma can lead to a spiritual crisis](#spiritual-abuse) - [How women’s spiritual growth is affected by betrayal](#spiritual-growth-after-betrayal) - [What the Bible says about feelings and forgiveness](#forgiveness-after-betrayal) - [If you don’t have anyone else to trust, trust yourself](#trust-your-intuition) - [Whose job is it to restore trust after betrayal?](#restoring-trust-after-betrayal) ## TRANSCRIPT: WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT CHEATING HUSBANDS? **Anne:** I have a master’s level researcher on today’s episode. She’s also been through this herself and she’s going to be sharing some of her personal story. Welcome. Lisa **Lisa:** Thank you, Anne. It’s good to be here. **Anne:** Start with your story in the context of finding out that your husband has been using pornography, lying to you, or psychologically abusing you, and your church community doesn’t stand by what does the Bible say about cheating husbands, which results in a spiritual crisis. **Lisa:** Absolutely, I experienced this. I have a faith background and was active in my local church as my marriage fell apart. I hid a lot of abuse, and I went through a deep spiritual crisis that would last for years. So I questioned whether God could still love me, because the church rejected me for making a stand and walking away from a man who was not willing to stop lying. Having my faith pulled out from underneath me was part of why that was such a low, low time for me. I felt that if there was support, if people were talking about sex addiction. Perhaps I wouldn’t have hit such a low point. ## SOMEHOW IT’S THE WOMAN’S FAULT **Anne:** When you say you hit a lot of abuse. Are you talking about abuse from the church? **Lisa:** Yes, unfortunately, and mine is one of many, many stories. Similar thread runs through all of them, so it’s somehow not the man’s fault. It’s the woman’s fault. Especially if she decides to make a strong boundary, like I’m leaving abuse. I got threatening letters from a pastor throughout the four or five years I was single. Living as a solo mom in a different city, I moved cities to get a full time job. Eventually, that would even lead to a death threat. And it’s interesting, my mother, who also had to leave my father for his chronic infidelity, went through almost exactly the same thing. How do you know [when to leave](https://www.btr.org/how-do-you-know-when-its-time-to-leave/)? She got threatening phone calls. Ultimately, she also faced a death threat. You know, I was blessed that I had learned from her how to stand up to spiritual abuse. **Anne:** My church leader told me I was the abuser, because I said my husband was abusive. It was unbelievable. There was so much abuse that happened because my ex manipulated our church leader. So you sent your survey to over 100 women. What did it reveal about how victims of abuse often go through a spiritual crisis? **Lisa:** Of the over 100 women who answered, more than 63 percent felt they had gone through a significant spiritual crisis. ## MANY WOMEN EXPERIENCE A SPIRITUAL CRISIS **Lisa:** The only thing surprising about that was that the number was that low. It was interesting, because some started saying, “No, I didn’t go through a spiritual crisis.” But as they continued to answer the questions, there was an open comments field. They went, you know what, I hadn’t thought I had gone through a spiritual crisis, but I can see now that I actually did. Which makes you realize that sometimes the types of trauma symptoms that a woman faces can be so overwhelming that they may not even realize they’re having a crisis of faith, an existential crisis, that their larger spiritual framework has become shaky. For some women, the spiritual crisis really centered around their broader belief in God, in a higher power. Others felt it was just around church and other people who share their faith, their normal faith community. Because of misinterpretations about what does the Bible say about cheating. For some women, it was both. When we looked at the women who were feeling distrustful of God, of their higher power, they talked about feeling duped by him. They talked about feelings of injustice. Feeling I have been a solid, faithful person in my faith community. I’ve been solid and faithful in my marriage. Why would something like this happen to me? It’s not fair. Women talk about feelings of rejection by God or judgment. Some talked about feeling abandoned by God. And then many of those women experienced something similar in the church. They experienced rejection in their church or faith community. They experienced abandonment in their faith community. ## WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT CHEATING AND THE PAIN OF BETRAYAL **Lisa:** Sometimes they experienced outright persecution. Like my story, my mother’s story, and many other women’s stories. The more deeply a woman was involved in her faith community, particularly if she was the spouse of the head of the community, or was involved in some kind of ministering, the more she felt it. Particularly those wives of leadership, ministry wives, they really had their world rocked. They had so much more to lose. And most of them keep a high level of anonymity, because they fear the loss of their world if his abuse should be discovered. Wives who’d had a difficult past and had come to faith as adults often their understanding of the world was, well, I suffered a lot in my relationships in the past because I didn’t have my faith, but now I’ve got my faith community and met a faithful man. So now we’re gonna have the ideal marriage. When they find out that their ideal Christian husband or a husband of their faith is actually lying, it causes quite a crisis. That’s not to imply they were naive or anything like that. That’s certainly what churches teach, it’s implied frequently. Women spiritually abused and persecuted by sex addict husbands. **Anne:** I mean, I had a sense that if I obeyed the commandments and followed the teachings, I would be protected. The teachings were forgive, love, support your husband. And when I realized that all the forgiving, serving, and loving actually enabled his abuse. I wasn’t taught to protect myself or separate myself from wickedness. They weren’t fully applying what does the Bible say about cheating. ## TAUGHT TO LOVE, SERVE AND FORGIVE, NOT TO PROTECT OURSELVES **Anne:** In my faith, it’s fine to get divorced if abuse is an issue. They didn’t believe me that I was being abused. They just wanted me to continue to love, serve, and forgive part of what does the bible say about cheating. **Lisa:** Grace to him and nuts to you. You just need to forgive more and it’ll all be solved. That’s not true. **Anne:** Well, since the [abuser exploits us and may gaslight us](/how-do-abusers-gaslight/). Forgiving him solves his problem. Cause he can continue exploiting you. They can’t see anything from their victim’s point of view, they can’t perceive the problem is the exploitation. Because the only problem for them is that they’re not able to exploit us. So if we “forgive” them and go back to how things were, it actually solves their problem. **Lisa:** We were talking earlier about your pastor being in way over his head. Along with addiction goes lies, minimize, rationalize, justify, and blame. The basic formula for many faith communities is to stand up for men and blame women. Most of them would never think of it in those kinds of terms. But if you watch the pattern, there’s a history of if you have to side with one or the other, you side with the man. A lot of them have a blame for the woman mentality, and that’s what I saw in my circumstances. He was a pathological liar. The boys all got together to believe what my husband said, and very few people asked me what’s your side of the story here. ## ACCUSATIONS OF EXAGGERATION **Anne:** Most of the time when they ask for your side of the story, they’re viewing it as if he has his side and you have yours. The truth is somewhere in the middle. But that’s not the reality. She’s telling the truth, and he manipulates everyone and manages his image. People say to me, well, that’s too simple. It actually is that simple. **Lisa:** We’re not over exaggerating. If anything, we’re holding back. Because some of this stuff is going on in our bedrooms. And we’re not keen to talk to our pastor about that abuse in the bedroom, or it’s neglect in the bedroom. Stuff that we have difficulty explaining. Which is cluing us into the fact that this guy is not who he says he is, there’s something seriously wrong. She doesn’t have the impetus to lie and hide that he does. **Anne:** Right, we constantly get accused of exaggerating what does the Bible say about cheating. **Lisa:** Yeah, you must be exaggerating. **Anne:** Yeah, I’m like, I’m not exaggerating. But then you’re trying to prove you’re not exaggerating, you look more and more crazy. So it’s this downward spiral. **Lisa:** What makes this so difficult for women in a faith community is that her trauma symptoms make her look crazy. Whereas, often the husband has worked really, really hard to maintain this smooth image. We should say, “Wow, the level of emotion she’s exhibiting proves the veracity of her statements.” It should actually lead to credibility in what she’s saying. And his, too smooth, should be getting picked up on people’s radar. That alone should be a cue but they don’t. People tend to see it as the opposite. ## PRESSURE FROM THE CHURCH, WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT CHEATING **Lisa:** I think where sex addiction has gone in the last decade, where pornography has gone in the last decade, is so horrific. If that is not part of your purview, if you’ve never considered the ways people can go off the rails, it can seem like, surely not, surely he’s not doing that, surely it can’t be that bad, surely it’s not as awful as you’re saying. But it is. **Anne:** Right. Look at what does the Bible say about cheating. **Lisa:** There are researchers and experts who will tell you it is that bad. **Anne:** Mm hmm. **Lisa:** It’s horrific. So when we’re talking about women being spiritually abused or persecuted by their church, and I’m sure between us, we could list dozens of stories. Even just this morning, I received an email from a woman telling me a little bit of her story. They began policing her sex life, telling her she needed to be more available, and started actually asking questions regularly about her availability. **Anne:** Wait, what? That’s sexual coercion. They’re literally using sexual abuse to harass this woman and force her to be oppressed by her husband. Wow! **Lisa:** Absolutely. She said, “I hate sex.” I began having sex with my husband because of pressure from the church. And the sad reality is sometimes there is no answer to getting away from the abuse outside of leaving a particular faith community. And some people leave all faith communities because of this. I think that’s understandable, and I never criticize people for doing what they need to do to protect themselves. **Anne:** That’s so hard. ## HOW SPIRITUAL GROWTH IS AFFECTED **Anne:** You mentioned the survey also looked at spiritual growth. What did it show about that? **Lisa:** So many of these women, more than the 63 percent. The 79 percent said that through this journey of discovering their husband’s sex addiction, pornography addiction, and walking through crisis, they came to a stronger place in their faith. And for a small percentage, that was pretty instant. They found out, and they just kind of flopped into God’s arms for comfort. One woman said, “No, that was always my safe place. And so I went there immediately.” But for more women, it was part of coming through the spiritual crisis, they ended up with a strengthened faith. And others talked about having a better relationship with God on the other side of this. By that, I mean they’d always had a relationship with God, and this was my experience. I had a relationship with God, but God and I are much closer. And I feel like I get him at a deeper level, and it’s much more life giving for me. It was meditations and prayers. I had certainly heard from other women. It’s joining a support group like yours, and seeing other women and how it’s bolstering them, in a loving, non-pressuring way. And they begin to reconnect, they are more at peace. They feel stronger, more loved and supported. Many of us begin to rethink our faith. I began to question everything I thought I’d ever known about God. The Bible talks about this idea that trials will grow us. What does the Bible say about cheating? What in my beliefs feels fundamentally true. And what is just baggage? [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## THINKING ABOUT THE NATURE OF GOD **Lisa:** For example, the whole, we don’t have boundaries thing, **Anne:** Right. **Lisa:** Or about women’s place, some fundamental things about the nature of God, for example, that we begin to think through more carefully. The nature of God itself. That’s an enormous issue. People don’t even realize they often carry contradictory pictures of God around with them. He is complex and mysterious. At the same time, He wants to show His goodness to women at the time of their suffering. The Bible talks about His thoughts. His heart is towards the suffering, marginalized, widows and orphans. He wants justice for the widows and orphans. Sometimes what does the Bible say about cheating is misinterpreted. We’ve got a generation of pornography widows and sex addiction orphans out there. God wants them treated well, he wants justice for them, he wants them lifted up. And I’d like to see the church begin to respond to God’s heart in that. I idolized marriage. That fell by the wayside as part of this journey, not surprisingly. I realized that marriage was never going to fulfill all my great longings for love and relationship. That was something I could only find in God. That was a big part of my spiritual growth. **Anne:** Speaking of justice for the widows, I did a podcast episode about Luke 18 and the parable of the unjust judge, how the widow asks him to avenge her. And he’s like, no, no, go away. And then, in the end, he thinks, Oh, I know a way to get her to go away. I’ll just put it back on God. I’ll just say, God will avenge you in his right time. And he doesn’t actually do anything. That parable perfectly explains, what the pornography widows want is justice. ## WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT CHEATING AND BINDING UP THE BROKENHEARTED **Lisa:** The church could help with the spiritual crisis. They could help catapult women into spiritual growth and circumvent the whole women feeling guilty for wanting justice, like they’re doing something wrong. Wanting justice, that’s coming from a really healthy place that’s coming from God’s heart. God wants justice for you too. **Anne:** In my faith tradition, one of our leaders, he’s in a bad spot, and he’s praying and he’s saying, God, where are you? Then there’s this first, where he actually asks for justice from God. He says, God, will you avenge my adversaries? They gloss over that part, here is this strong spiritual person, and he is asking for justice. What’s wrong with us asking for justice in the context of what does the Bible say about cheating? **Lisa:** We often quote Isaiah. The Messiah is there to bind up the brokenhearted and release the captive. And declare the day of vengeance on your enemies. Part of healing is justice. God hasn’t forgotten that. **Anne:** It’ll be interesting to see how this all plays out. I have not observed that, but maybe someday, maybe in the next life. That’s what I always say. **Lisa:** Yeah, so it’s normal to go through some kind of crisis like this. Don’t be ashamed of it. If you feel like you need to go outside and shake your fist at God, throw some stuff up at the sky and scream at him, do it. Do not be concerned about committing some kind of unforgivable sin or some heresy, because God is big enough, and if you are keeping those lines of communication going, that’s amazing. Just keep it going, even if it feels like I have nothing good to say to you, and I have no nice way to say it. ## ONLY FEELING DESPAIR **Lisa:** He is a good father, and a good parent can take this stuff. He knows how you’re feeling. He loves you, and wants you to pour out to him. **Anne:** God, I’m ready that you will have all of me the good and the bad. To let you see me in this vulnerable state, I’m willing to have you see me as I am this broken person in despair. **Lisa:** Maybe that’s another part of the spiritual growth. We hit new levels of vulnerability with God. We find that we are still accepted, we are still loved, because I really did sense God’s love for me and care in the midst of my angriest days. **Anne:** I went through about a nine month drought where I could not feel God at all. I prayed, read my scriptures, spent a lot of time at church crying in the bathroom stall, and looked for what does the Bible say about cheating. I studied the scriptures every day, and I just felt trauma, sadness, and horror. It felt like the jaws of hell were gaping after me. I had so many spiritual experiences to draw on during that time of drought. I know this works. I’m just going to keep going, even though I can’t feel it now. **Lisa:** Sometimes it doesn’t feel like a place of comfort . **Anne:** I had my group, good friends, and family. So I had support and could express how I felt. They were amazing. Instead of saying, Well, you should forgive, and then you’ll feel better. I think this comes down to forgiveness. They didn’t say that. They said, that makes sense. **Lisa:** That’s what you need to hear. ## GOD’S UNEXPECTED ANSWERS TO WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT CHEATING **Anne:** The trauma is so intense, like forgiveness isn’t even on the table. **Lisa:** No, absolutely not. Surviving is on the table, and God gets that. In my personal interactions with God. I felt no pressure whatsoever to forgive. I felt, let’s just survive this. **Anne:** You know where you said that toward the end of the survey, the participants were like, wait, I really did have a spiritual crisis. Right now I’m thinking, wait. I think I was talking to God and he answered me during those nine months, but I just did not feel comforted. because He kept telling me to do nothing and wait and observe what does the Bible say about cheating from a safe distance. And I did not like that answer. I was like, if I just wait and observe from a safe distance, he’s not going to do anything. Like he wasn’t trying to repair a relationship, nothing. What I didn’t realize was that I was observing his true character. It gave me this clear picture of who he was, which I desperately needed. And that’s what God wanted me to see. But it was not comforting at all. So I could not feel comforted. I didn’t feel peace. I didn’t feel calm that God knew what he was doing. It was so traumatic in every way. During that time, God taught me about boundaries, and these are things that I now teach in the [Workshop](/livingfree/). How to see his true character. How to set actual boundaries and observe from a safe distance, so that you’re not going to get manipulated or lied to ever again, you’ll see the truth. But to go back to that painful time where I couldn’t feel comforted. ## YOU NEED A COMMUNITY TO LIFT YOU UP **Anne:** A friend, actually, was like, just give up on God and get a really soft blanket. Put it around yourself and curl up in your closet. I was in so much emotional pain and couldn’t feel comforted. The best we could do was get a Teddy Bear. **Lisa:** In the moment, what we sometimes need is a community that just lifts us up. A community that just says, I will weep with those who weep. I’m not going to sit here and preach to you like Job’s friends. I’m just going to sit here quietly with you and share your pain. That’s one of my main messages to the church these days. You don’t understand. If you’ve not been there, just trust me, you don’t understand. Keep your advice and share her pain, pray for her and ask how you can help. **Anne:** Thank you so much for being here today. **Lisa:** Thank you, Anne. It is an honor to be invited to talk with you and to get to know you better and I’m so excited about what BTR is doing. I’m talking about it to everybody who will listen. You and your team keep up the awesome work you’re doing. **Anne:** Thank you. I’d like to thank Lisa for sharing her story. And talking about what does the Bible say about cheating. ## BETRAYAL TRAUMA’S IMPACT ON WOMEN’S SPIRITUALITY **Anne:** And now here’s my interview with Natalie and Carmel. Today I have the co-authors of the book *Love and Betrayal, Stories of Hope to Help You Heal from Your Husband’s Pornography Addiction*. Carmel Parker White has a doctorate in Lifespan Human Development, and her educational experiences have cultivated a lifelong interest in the factors that influence the trajectories of people’s lives. Her co-author, Natalie Black Milne, is integrating her background in communication with graduate work in family and child studies. She is familiar with the devastating impact addictions have on the family, and is also passionate about becoming a voice promoting the sanctity of the family. Welcome Natalie and Carmel. Thank you. As we’re talking today about betrayal trauma, how it impacts women, and families. We also know, and we’ve had several guests on the podcast talk about the impact on a woman’s spirituality and the spiritual crisis that women go through when feeling betrayed. And by misinterpretations of what does the Bible say about cheating. Natalie, let’s have you go first. What is your feeling about how betrayal trauma impacts spirituality? **Natalie:** That is one of the trickiest aspects of how a husband’s betrayal affects the woman, because there are so many layers and levels to it. But just in a brief explanation, it’s something as simple as it causes them to question everything. To question their beliefs, to question their relationship with God, to question if they can even receive communication with God. ## INTENSE EMOTIONS ARE NORMAL **Natalie:** And then it causes them to also question and even wonder if their ecclesiastical leaders are even giving them sound advice. And a lot of that is based on the trust they’ve lost, namely in men and in God himself. So it becomes a really hard thing for women to navigate, because it shakes that foundation, that spiritual foundation, and their connection with God. **Carmel:** And when we interviewed the women, I just wanted to mention that for them, it was oftentimes their intense emotional reactions. So their anger or their pain that would get this started. So the betrayal would occur, and then all those intense emotions could also be projected onto their spiritual experiences and feelings about God. **Anne:** That’s interesting. And also the fact that the intense emotion is, I assume, this is what happened with me. It was more than just the betrayal of my husband, but also, like Natalie just mentioned, the bad advice I received from my church leaders or the harmful advice that harmed me even more. So I’m questioning that, and then I’m having intense emotions, which is normal. Men might think, Why is she acting like this? But for us, if we acted differently, that would be weird, right? **Natalie:** I agree with that. And what was interesting, though, is for many women. That level of intensity was the first time they experienced that, and some even wondered if that was okay, or if, say, for instance, God would be looking down upon them for that. So it caused them to question that, and we had to assure them, just as their therapist did, that that’s a very normal response, and you should be responding that way. ## SPIRITUAL FRACTURE, WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT CHEATING **Anne:** I write in a gratitude journal every day, and one of the things I wrote for a few days, I kept saying, I’m so grateful for my anger. I was like, yeah, I am grateful for my anger, because how else would I feel? **Carmel:** It’s often our emotions that warn us that we feel something deeply and need to deal with it. And in this case, the intense emotions that come from the betrayal cause us to re examine everything because of those emotions. **Anne:** So, in your book, you talk about a spiritual fracture. Can you tell me more about that? **Carmel:** That’s a term that actually came from Dr. Kevin Skinner. From his perspective, women were trusting their husbands that they would be reliable, and they wouldn’t let down their commitments, and they wouldn’t let them down. But when that commitment or trust has been broken, women begin to see people and relationships they thought were safe, as not safe anymore. So they start to ask themselves about all relationships. Is this a good relationship? Can I meet my needs? Then this becomes a spiritual problem, because they start to wonder if God will do the same for them. And they wonder why God didn’t warn them. And they wonder why God didn’t prevent this kind of pain. **Anne:** Well, and we’ve been told in church, if you do this, and you do this, you will have a happy and peaceful life. And your marriage will be beautiful, and you’ll have this wonderful family. Then we’re like, I did all those things. And I am not getting the things you promised. And how do I understand what does the Bible say about cheating? ## WHO CAN I TRUST IF I CAN’T TRUST MY HUSBAND? **Carmel:** Women start to feel like this contract has been changed. I did all what I thought I was supposed to do, and now I don’t have the outcome. How does this work? **Natalie:** Exactly. And when they join that union as husband and wife, most married people also do that in a contract with God. And so, when that most personal, spiritual, and special relationship has been so badly damaged, and for many women, just out of the blue, you can see the fracturing that would take place across the board. If I can’t trust my husband, then who can I trust? Can I trust my best friend? Or, can I trust my sister? Can I trust God himself? And it’s just because that relationship is the most intimate relationship they have next to God himself. **Anne:** So can a person who has experienced betrayal trauma trust in God again? My own personal feeling is that I am still working on this. I’m not sure if I trust. I want to trust God again. I’m working through that. In some ways. I absolutely trust him. And other ways I’m like, eh, I don’t know. Tell me about what you found. **Carmel:** Over a period of usually years, they began to trust God. They did begin to realize He’s the only one they can count on. That they can’t count on anyone else but God, God will be there. But it took many women years to get to that point where they felt they could trust God again. **Natalie:** Right and something that I noticed not just with these women, but with my own life and life in general. ## CAN I TRUST MYSELF? **Natalie:** I think a lot of that trusting comes down to women can logically think God is all loving, powerful, and he is my father. I can trust him, but they don’t trust themselves in trusting him. They want to trust him, but they think, well, I’ve trusted before and look what happened. Or maybe I don’t trust how I receive communication from him. I’m not confident in my communication and those feelings with him. To me, I see that it’s that dance between trusting Him, but then also trusting myself, that I can trust Him. or that I know that I have the proper skills to be successful. **Carmel:** And I might add one more thing. Women going through this question themselves just as much as their husbands and other people. They lose confidence in their ability to make judgments or to make a good plan or direction for them to go. So they’re questioning everything, including themselves. **Anne:** For me, it’s I did those things. Will I receive the blessings you promised me? And I have not yet. I guess, experienced that in some ways. And so part of me now is like, well, I will trust when I see it. But I’m trying now to be like, okay, I can trust before I see it. But after what I’ve been through, it’s very difficult to wrap my head around that. **Natalie:** That’s why I think spiritual fracturing is so comprehensive, and a lot of it is based on that very thing. You don’t just question your husband, your relationship with God, you question yourself, and there’s just a spiritual fracturing on so many levels. ## HOW CLERGY CAN HELP **Anne:** And I want to clarify that the women themselves aren’t making these spiritual fractures. These spiritual fractures are happening to them as a result of someone else’s choices. One of the ways their spirituality is fractured is by going to a clergy member or church leader and asking for advice, or asking for help, and not receiving the correct advice on what does the Bible say about cheating or not receiving any help at all. For me, that’s the most common reason why women don’t trust or have a difficult time trusting clergy after betrayal trauma. Is that your experience from the women that you interviewed? **Carmel:** I want to say, first of all, that most clergy don’t have extensive exposure to addiction and addictive behavior, so they don’t realize what they need to do to help either the husband or the wife. For the wife, they need to communicate that, I care about you, God cares about you, we need to heal this, you’re as important as your spouse. But then the clergy also needs to understand that sometimes the spouse will lie to them, sometimes the spouse will minimize what’s going on, sometimes mercy looks an awful lot like enabling behavior. **Anne:** I did a survey, and the women I surveyed said they would feel most supported by their clergy, if their clergy held their spouse accountable in some way. Rather than just saying, Oh, oh, don’t look at pornography again. And you wife, you need to communicate better. **Natalie:** Right? **Anne:** Right. ## CLERGY NEEDS TO UNDERSTAND A WOMAN’S POINT OF VIEW **Anne:** But there was none of that. That he would hold him accountable for his abuse and pornography use and lying, and then support her. Because oftentimes the spouse abuses her. And sometimes then clergy, saying, well, you need to change something about you. In order for this to stop, **Carmel:** I was just going to say, women get that exact response from clergy. That well, it’s not that bad. It’s not like he’s addicted. The clergy needs to understand how women view it. In addition, you probably shouldn’t be making the call if he’s addicted or not. Usually clergy don’t have that kind of mental health training, but they can get more information. I don’t know what’s going on here, um, but I’m going to get some more information. **Anne:** My church leader said to me, “Well, what difference does it make to you if he’s looking for help?” And I was like, it’s adultery. And he was like, well, it does not say that in the church handbook. And I was like, I don’t care what the church handbook says. Jesus said it in the Bible. But getting in a fight with my church leader was not fun. It was totally miserable. And then there’s always this discussion or not always, but frequently a discussion about forgiveness. And that is when wives say, wait a minute. Forgiveness is one thing, but trust is another thing. What are some mistaken assumptions about forgiveness that you discovered when writing your book? **Natalie:** We specifically centered on three or four different ones, and I’ll just tell you those right now. ## FORGIVENESS TAKES TIME **Natalie:** A lot of women believed that I can’t enter into the process of forgiving until I feel perfectly safe, comfortable, and ready. If you choose that route to forgive, you will probably never find yourself forgiving, because you’re never again going to feel perfectly safe, comfortable, or ready to forgive. And so that becomes a personal journey of trying to figure out in your mind exactly what forgiveness is and what it looks like. And so that’s something else that leads to a mistaken assumption, is that forgiveness happens immediately. Absolutely not, forgiveness is personal and individualized, and it will take time. And to just say, oh, I forgive you. Some women automatically said that as soon as their husband confessed, but then realized that, wait a minute, I don’t forgive him. I said that because I thought that’s what I was supposed to say. But to realize that true forgiveness takes time, and it’s actually a miracle that happens within the heart. Another mistaken assumption would be that forgiving my husband would be the same as admitting that my anger toward him was exaggerated or unjustified. Some women believe that if I forgive him, my anger wasn’t real or that it was, like I said, over exaggerated. But that anger is real, and because you forgive someone doesn’t mean that that anger will not resurface. Anger and forgiveness are two separate things. And then the last one that we talk about is when I forgive my husband, I in turn make myself weak and vulnerable. I’m better off denying my pain to make peace. That is absolutely untrue, and the exact opposite is true, in that it takes a lot of strength and resolve to forgive in the proper way. ## HUSBANDS ARE RESPONSIBLE TO RESTORE TRUST **Natalie:** So over time, women learn that forgiveness is for their own peace and progress. And that forgiveness and trust are two completely different things. Trust is definitely on the man. If that trust is rebuilt, he has to prove that he’s trustworthy. Forgiveness is between a woman and God. Between those two, that miracle of forgiveness can take place in its own time and in its own way. Trust, the husband definitely has to be the one to restore that. **Anne:** Forgiveness is a gift that we give ourselves, which brings us peace, and brings us perspective, whereas trust is a gift we give others when they have shown they are trustworthy. So for me, for example, I feel like I have forgiven my ex. I feel at peace with that. But I do not trust him. And every time I have even attempted to engage with him, I am attacked or blamed for the situation. And so I hold a no contact boundary because of the trust issue. **Carmel:** Sometimes you may forgive them for one part of the hurt they caused in your life, but later something else comes up that you think, well, I thought I’d forgiven him for everything. So you may have to forgive them for how he’s hurt you, and then how he’s hurt the kids. It does just take time. **Anne:** Yes, I think time has to be a factor. ## THANKS FOR HELPING **Anne:** Thank you, Carmel and Natalie, for being here today. And thank you for your work. I think it’s so important that all of us are considering these issues. We’d love to hear your comments about this episode and spiritual situations that you have found yourself in. Please comment at the bottom. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Lack of Intimacy in Marriage - What You Need to Know About Your Husband](https://www.btr.org/lack-of-intimacy-in-marriage/) **Published:** September 6, 2022 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Does your husband ignore your needs? Here's the likely TRUE cause. **Content:** Many women who come to BTR for help say that lack of intimacy in marriage is a key issue with their husbands. Typically, this means their husband expects physical intimacy while ignoring **relational intimacy** or emotional safety. And some women say their husbands seem not interested in relational OR physical intimacy, at all. Either way, his lack of intimacy is a signal that something deeper is going on with him. If you need emotional support, try our online [Betrayal Trauma Recovery support groups](/group/). ## 4 WAYS HIS LACK OF INTIMACY IN MARRIAGE IS EMOTIONAL ABUSE 4 Key Issues Behind His Lack of Intimacy in Marriage ### 1. HE MAY BE USING INAPPROPRIATE MEDIA If he is using inappropriate media for stimulation, he is rewiring his desire *away* from real connection with his wife. A lot of women feel rejected and confused because husbands are supposed to want intimacy, and if their husband doesn’t seem interested, she’s going to wonder if something’s wrong with her body or her desirability. But, his lack of desire for his wife isn’t about her attractiveness. ### 2. HE MAY BE HAVING AN AFFAIR When a husband directs sexual energy elsewhere, whether toward another woman or toward online fantasy, he’s bonding outside the marriage. If he seems emotionally distant, defensive, or irritable, and there’s unaccounted for time, it’s worth noticing the patterns around these behaviors and taking steps toward finding clarity and emotional safety for yourself. ### 3. LACK OF INTIMACY IN MARRIAGE: HE MAY BE EMOTIONALLY ABUSIVE Men who are emotionally abusive blame their wives for things they’re actually responsible for. So he might blame her for the messy house when he’s not picking up the house. He might be critical of her body, which is just a normal human body. I mean, just like his! Part of that emotional abuse is manipulation and control. Lack of intimacy in marriage is one way to exert control. It’s not the same thing as saying, “I don’t feel comfortable,” or “I feel too unsafe to be intimate with you.” If he’s been lying to you about his inappropriate media use or an affair, that’s coercion. So, of course, you’re not gonna feel emotionally or physically safe with him. If he’s rejecting you, but then blaming you for being distant, that’s part of that emotional abuse. That is gaslighting, manipulation, and control, which are some of 19 different emotional abuse tactics. To see if you’re experiencing any of them, take my free [emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ### 4. HE MAY PERCEIVE HIMSELF AS THE VICTIM Emotionally abusive men often see themselves as experiencing a lack of intimacy in marriage. They “perceive” of themselves as a victim. He might be thinking, “If she would just…” and the things that he’s expecting his wife to do are completely unrealistic. Or he’s thinking, “How am I supposed to be in a loveless marriage?” referring to physical intimacy, when he puts absolutely no effort toward being emotionally intimate or involved in emotional repair. ## FIVE COMPONENTS OF HEALTHY INTIMACY Healthy intimacy includes: 1. **Safety** 2. **Honesty & Transparency** 3. **Respect** 4. **Playfulness** 5. **Joy** You cannot build joy on deception or manipulation. No matter what he says, there is nothing she could have been, done, or acted like to prevent betrayal. That was his choice. ## IF YOU’RE ASKING, “WHAT DOES MY HUSBAND’S LACK OF INTIMACY IN MARRIAGE MEAN?” Start with thinking about your own safety. - Is he honest? - Is he transparent? - Does he respect you? - Is he emotionally present? If not, lack of intimacy in marriage has nothing to do with your desirability. Women in our group sessions for betrayal come in all shapes, sizes, ages, and backgrounds. Betrayal does not target a body type. The problem is relational integrity ### KEY TAKEAWAYS FROM THIS EPISODE: - [Navigating safety and trust as the foundation of intimacy](#emotional-safety-after-betrayal) - [What lack of intimacy in marriage does to a woman](#sexual-coercion) - [When an abuser perceives of himself as the victim](#reverse-victim) - [How friends, family, and communities can help victims](#finding-support-for-emotional-abuse) - [Things know and steps to follow when involving authorities](#reporting-image-based-abuse) ## TRANSCRIPT: PERSPECTIVES ON WHAT HUSBAND’S LACK OF INTIMACY IN MARRIAGE REALLY MEANS **Anne:** Today I have a therapist as my guest. We’re going to call her Maria. All right, so thinking about this topic of intimate betrayal. I mean, where do we even start? **Maria:** When we choose our spouse, it’s really a matter of, I’ll keep you safe and you keep me safe. And we’ll look out for each other. So when our person has secretive behaviors. Whether with another person or with inappropriate material, this is a safety risk. **Anne:** Yeah, because the lying and the gaslighting is all emotional and psychological abuse, and can also include lack of intimacy in marriage. **Maria:** I often hear stories of how some women throw up, some can’t breathe. Some can’t get off the floor, because their person is their person for safety. And when they are betrayed, they are not safe. **Anne:** I felt that right after my husband’s arrest, when I realized that things were really bad. Because before, I didn’t understand my true situation. I didn’t understand what was going on. And after his arrest, I lost like 15 pounds in three weeks. I couldn’t eat, I couldn’t sleep. Realizing that the person I’d been relying on was never safe. But I didn’t know that. **Maria:** Yes. ## NAVIGATING SAFETY AFTER BETRAYAL **Maria:** So many times in the aftermath of betrayal, We experience come here, go away, come here for safety. Oh, wait, you just betrayed me. You’ve lied. You’ve cheated. Go away for safety. Wait, wait, wait, where are you going? Come back for safety. We want to go to our husband emotionally for safety. We are so vulnerable when we take off our clothes, when we are naked with someone, that leaves us tremendously vulnerable. And for women, especially, for those who choose to stay with their abusive spouse. This means they’re choosing to stay with the source of pain. And the source of their safety risk, and to navigate not only how to function daily with someone they don’t trust, but they also do this tough job of trying to figure out how to maneuver physical intimacy. **Anne:** In my case, once I realized my husband wasn’t safe, I observed from a safe distance. To watch what he would do. And he shut down my bank account, and he didn’t make any effort to see the kids. And he was lying about what had happened. He actually said to people she wouldn’t have sex with me. How am I supposed to be in a loveless marriage? ## DETERMINING YOUR LEVEL OF SAFETY **Anne:** She also won’t talk to me. How are we supposed to work out lack of intimacy in marriage? If she won’t talk to me? And so it’s traumatic either way, whether you stay or are separated. In both cases, the first step is to determine your level of safety. Which is what my [Clarity After Betrayal Workshop](/clarity/) is for. Because you might determine that he’s not even safe enough to talk to, let alone be physically intimate with. **Maria:** Establishing safety must be the first step. We cannot be that vulnerable with somebody unless we know we are safe with them. Sometimes women will choose to be physically intimate to try to keep him from cheating on her again. Women often compare themselves to their husband’s affair partner, whether it’s a inappropriate material image or a prostitute. And wonder what’s wrong with them and why they don’t measure up. Sometimes partners will choose to be physically intimate in ways they wouldn’t otherwise, to try to measure up to what they imagine that affair partner was like. **Anne:** Which is coercion. I mean, that’s a form of abuse. **Maria:** Women who decide to be physically intimate with their spouse who has betrayed them are at risk. They get scared, and might feel like I need to do this so that he won’t cheat on me again, or he won’t leave me. They do something they don’t want to do, that they might never have done, out of fear and desperation. We experience distress from having that experience. ## WHAT LACK OF INTIMACY IN MARRIAGE DOES TO A WOMAN: THE IMPACT OF COERCION **Anne:** Yeah, of course, we’re going to be distressed when we’re a victim of coercion. **Maria:** Yes, why do I still want to be with him? Why, after he’s hurt me so much? In that place, it’s important that I realize I’m not staying because there’s something wrong with me. **Anne:** Yeah, part of the coercion is his manipulation. Manipulating us to think that if we’d been somehow different, he wouldn’t have cheated. And that’s also a threat. That’s the definition of coercion. You feel like you have to be intimate. Because you’re threatened and manipulated. That’s when we realized that we’re a victim of a type of abuse. **Maria:** There’s nothing you could have done to keep the betrayal from happening. That is their choice. It’s not because you did or said something wrong, or weren’t enough or too much. I joined the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery support group](/group/), and there were women of all shapes, sizes, ethnicities, ages, educational backgrounds, and socioeconomic backgrounds. And it proved it didn’t matter how I showed up in the world. It’s not my fault he betrayed me. **Anne:** One of the fears I felt was that my husband would say to his family or other people she’s not intimate with me, because in society, that’s like terrible. If a husband says she refuses to have that, then all the problems are my fault, because I’m saying no. They don’t know, that’s sexual coercion. If she can’t say no, then she can’t say yes. So that’s a serious form of sexual abuse that people aren’t recognizing. ## THE FEAR OF SAYING NO **Maria:** And addicts tend to use that as justification, which is not fair or accurate. I get really scared and wonder, is it okay to say no? I fear being criticized for saying no or being condemned. And I feel a fear of being a bad wife or a fear of being alone. Another example, I value keeping an intact family unit. So the kids have limited exposure to emotional abuse, gaslighting, or other safety issues. And I feel like I have to have sex to maintain an intact family. Some think honoring God means honoring or submitting to their husband. I honor God by being authentic, by protecting this body that God gave me, by protecting my heart that God gave me. Am I honoring God by being intimate when I don’t want to? Or am I honoring God by not and protecting myself? **Anne:** Yeah, with this type of coercion, it’s so difficult to sort through the manipulation and gaslighting. To figure out how you actually feel. **Maria:** Yes, it gets really confusing. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## TAKING PHYSICAL INTIMACY OFF THE TABLE **Anne:** Yeah, so many of us have been manipulated so much, and our emotions have been hijacked by the emotional abuse. Because he wants us to focus all our energy on him. We’re thinking, how does he feel? How is he doing? What can I do to help him? What can I do to ensure our families are intact? So many women have said that to me. I didn’t even recognize that I felt emotionally unsafe, and I didn’t even know what emotional safety meant. Before they recognize the emotional abuse, they don’t even know they can say no. About six months before my husband was arrested. I decided that I did not feel emotionally safe during sex. And so I stopped initiating. Historically, I had initiated, and I told him, you’re welcome to initiate if you want, but I’m not going to initiate it anymore. I’m not going to say yes if I don’t feel emotionally connected. He didn’t attempt in any way, shape or form to connect emotionally with me. I remember this, I had purchased a workbook for the two of us to go through to improve our marriage. And one night, I pulled it out and he was so excited about it. He was like, this is going to be amazing. And I said, if you want to do it again, you’ll need to be the one that initiates it. And he was like, I’m going to do that. That’s going to be great. And he never did, not once. He never initiated that workbook. He never initiated intimacy. So I learned what lack of intimacy in marriage does to a woman. ## WHAT LACK OF INTIMACY IN MARRIAGE DOES TO A WOMAN: THE ABUSER PERCEIVES HIMSELF AS A VICTIM **Anne:** So for me, it was helpful to see that he was exploiting me to do all the work in the relationship. And he used emotional and psychological abuse to do that. **Maria:** There’s real value in taking sex off the table. Let’s imagine, the husband is not reaching for his wife. She is not having emotional intimacy or physical intimacy. Instead, he has sexual experiences outside the relationship. The hope for the couple is that if we shut down the intimate experiences outside the marriage, we will now have intimacy inside the marriage. Except that’s not what happens. One of the common beliefs of someone with a sex addiction is that sex is my most important need. It’s not their most important need. We could live without it. If someone is not sexual, they’re not going to die or spontaneously combust. Those are emotionally abusive behaviors. We need to know what we’re dealing with, so we can make choices. **Anne:** Yeah, one of the things I’ve learned is that abuse is a character issue, a way that they perceive the world. The abuser perceives himself as a victim. And that’s what causes him to be emotionally and psychologically abusive and use sexual coercion. Because he’s a victim, he’s entitled to these things, and he’s not getting them. When in reality that’s just not true. **Maria:** Many addicts exhibit profound gaslighting behaviors because they’re trying not to get caught. They’re trying to get their spouse to back up, to not find out about their secret. They will be manipulative, bullying, mean, and say critical and contemptuous things to get the wife to back up. ## THE ROLE OF GASLIGHTING **Anne:** Yeah, I just wish I could have seen that for the emotional and psychological abuse it was. I mean, when I went through it, and I think most addicts think like this. My ex was like, Oh, yeah I’m a sex addict. So now I’m going to recover, and I’m going to be sober for six weeks, and then we can have sex again. And he was just checking boxes off the list to groom me. A lot of times we talk about healthy sexuality. I assume everyone else assumes we’re talking about actually engaging in sex. But I’d like to point out that healthy sexuality could mean abstinence. Healthy sexuality refrains from sex, with someone who is emotionally abusive. Someone who’s gaslighting you and lying to you and who doesn’t respect you. **Maria:** We need to talk about gaslighting here and the consequences of gaslighting because he will do and say things that distort her reality. If he’s rewriting history, she’s going to wonder what’s true. The consequences of gaslighting are that she will doubt herself, her intuition, what’s real. Over time, a decline in her ability to trust herself, to trust gut instincts. We often talk about how our intuition has been damaged. Our ability to trust our gut instinct has been damaged. They doubt themselves, and if they doubt themselves, they doubt their ability to stay safe in the world. They doubt their ability to pick a safe partner. ## HEALTHY SEXUALITY & ABSTINENCE **Anne:** Yeah, I feel like being in touch with ourselves, and our intuition, is the first line of defense before even attempting to date again. **Maria:** Absolutely, yes, I hope to take the time to heal before getting into another relationship. **Anne:** And for single women, I think that’s what healthy sexuality looks like. I mean, for someone who has either never been married or divorced. Healthy sexuality looks like I have a voice, I can speak it, I have boundaries, I can say no. **Maria:** As a therapist, a series of conversations I often have are, how did you learn how to be a sexual being? Where did you learn? What did you learn about your body parts, how to be in relationship? And what did you learn about sex or being sexual? What did they believe about their body and challenge some beliefs they may have learned, because that’s what someone told them to believe. And really come to terms with what they authentically believe. To help them define their value system. So that when they approach a romantic relationship with another partner, they can have their behavior align with their values. That’s healthy sexuality. **Anne:** Yeah, that’s been really important to me. Well, Maria, thank you so much for talking with us today about the impact that lack of intimacy in marriage has on a woman. ## LACK OF INTIMACY IN MARRIAGE: WHEN A HUSBAND SHARES EXPLICIT PHOTOS **Anne:** A member of our community. Sandy is on today’s episode. Not her real name, she’s using an alias, because she’s going to talk about how she experienced abuse. The perpetrator was her husband. We won’t go into details. Welcome, Sandy. Why don’t you just start where you want to start? **Sandy:** It’s hard to know where to start, because I feel like the timeline is complicated. My husband raped me, and then about a week after that happened. I found out that there were pictures of me on pornography sites. They were two completely separate incidents, because the pictures happened about eight years before. I just didn’t know about them until a friend of mine told me. She said, “I don’t think you know this, but he puts pictures of you on pornography sites.” **Anne:** Wow. So your husband rapes you, and then a week later, a friend says, “You might not be aware, but there are some pictures of you on a pornography site.” And these pictures were taken 8 years before. **Sandy:** When I heard that, I don’t even know how to describe it. ## ABUSIVE MEN DISMISS THEIR PARTNER’S FEELINGS & DESIRES **Sandy:** I went home and asked my husband if it was true. “Are pictures of me on pornography sites?” He said, “yes.” I look back now, and I think about that as the end of everything. We were married for 13 years at that point, but we were together for 15. This person I had loved for 15 years, it’s like he didn’t exist anymore. I didn’t know who this person was who would do this to me. At that point, I hadn’t identified what he had done to me as rape. **Anne:** Can you describe what you thought at the time had happened? **Sandy:** I knew it was not good. I knew it wasn’t loving. It was very confusing. Why it was happening, what was going on? We had just had this terrible fight. The next thing I knew, he followed me up to the bedroom and I had my bathing suit on. I was taking it off. And the next I know, we’re having sex, and I didn’t know why. I thought if I asked him to stop, he would yell at me more. ## CLERGY, FAITH-COMMUNITIES, & FRIENDS CAN HELP VICTIMS OF MARITAL ABUSE **Sandy:** I talked about this with some friends, and they said, that’s rape. I said he didn’t push me down. He didn’t hurt me. They said, yeah, but he didn’t have your consent. I said, no, I didn’t realize that at that point, there are actually degrees of rape. The rape hot line online support has different grades or degrees of rape. It was actually third or fourth degree rape. Friends and leadership from my church at the time told me, this is rape, call this hot line. They’ll point you in the right direction. You need to get help. And they kept pushing me to get help because they were very much, you’ll heal faster if you process this right away. This is abuse. **Anne:** It’s not common that your church people told you what happened. I actually haven’t heard a story like this in a really long time. Instead, I hear how they tell women they [should stay married after infidelity.](/should-you-stay-married-after-infidelity/) **Sandy:** Yeah, I definitely felt the Holy Spirit watching out for me, putting people in my life to push me in the right direction. **Anne:** That’s not a very common thing for clergy to help a rape victim identify the rape, especially when it’s her own spouse. That’s very, very rare. **Sandy:** And he didn’t punch me. He didn’t push me down. ## SEEKING THERAPY & REFLECTING ON THE RELATIONSHIP **Sandy:** They were the ones who urged me to go to therapy by myself for abuse and trauma. It wasn’t one of these, “Oh, you guys need to get into couples counseling.” The church, all the friends I had, they were like, you need to heal from this before you can ever work on a relationship again. The same thing for him, they were like, he obviously has major issues. He needs to figure out what those are and get help for them before he can be in a relationship with you. I felt like that all started me on the right track, even though it was the harder track in some ways, because I wanted things to get back to normal. I wanted my life back. Not to say that I had this perfect relationship or something like that. We definitely had issues. **Anne:** Are you saying that at the time you didn’t really understand the extent of the issues? **Sandy:** Yes. That’s a better way to put it. **Anne:** Okay. So at the time you’re thinking, I know we have issues, but do I have to go through all this stuff? **Sandy:** Yeah, I knew that it was bigger. ## MEN ABUSE THEIR WIVES BY STALKING & RECORDING THEM WITHOUT CONSENT **Sandy:** Once I found out about the pictures, I realized there is more going on here than I ever realized. I think I was in denial for many years, because at one point I found a hidden camera in our bedroom. I asked, what is this about? He said, when I take the kids to school, you get undressed, and I miss taking pictures of you. Because he always stalked me when I would take a shower or when I would get undressed. He always had the camera and always wanted to take pictures. And I was always like, oh my gosh, this is so annoying, just let me take a shower. But I thought he’s my husband, he likes to see me naked. That’s good, right? It all was warning signs. So anyway, I found the hidden camera and was really angry about it. He was like, okay, I won’t do it again. That was years before I knew about the pictures online or anything like that. **Anne:** When you find out about the pictures, what becomes clear to you at this point? I mean, have you been going to therapy before the rape, before these things? Or, have you been thinking, there’s something wrong with my relationship, something’s weird going on. Or were you thinking, oh I have a great relationship. ## MEN ABUSE THEIR WIVES BY IGNORING FAMILIAL & EMOTIONAL NEEDS **Anne:** Can you talk about your thoughts before the rape, and then also before you found out about him posting pornography? **Sandy:** I wouldn’t say there was anything seeming super wrong. Our relationship beforehand seemed fairly normal to me. I wanted him to pay attention to me more. And I felt like I’m the mother of three kids, and I was a stay at home mom. I always wanted him to come home and spend some time with me. He had an excuse to do something else, and decided to start this new business. I was like, “Why? Don’t! Don’t start this business, please. I never see you, I need you to be home. I need you to be part of this family.” He just was like, “If you don’t want to be part of it, you don’t have to, but I’m gonna do it anyway.” I was, of course, upset about that, but to me, it’s nothing to get divorced over. I just thought he’s going to do what he wants to do, and I’ll stay out of it if I don’t like it. **Anne:** Well, ironically, going to therapy at that time, you not knowing about abuse, couple therapy wouldn’t help you a whole lot. ## MEN ABUSE THEIR WIVES BY OVERTLY OR COVERTLY THREATENING INFIDELITY **Sandy:** Yeah, I had no idea, so it was just this sort of we both felt busy. I had my own business, he was starting a business. I just remember thinking like, I can’t wait till we can spend more time together. Looking back at everything, it’s a weird combination of, I was begging for his attention and he was also obsessed with me. He was obsessed physically with me. It was almost like I couldn’t have his attention any other way. **Anne:** Because he’s taking pictures of you all the time, and he’s doing these things that make you feel uncomfortable. At the same time, at least it’s something. **Sandy:** Right, and there was one point where I even wondered if he’s seeing somebody else because he never comes straight home after work. I would call his work and say, Hey, has he left yet? They would say, yeah, he left two hours ago. I didn’t know what that was about, so I thought I’d just put out when he wants, because then he won’t have a reason to sleep with anyone else. Looking back, that was so stupid. **Anne:** We’ve all been there Sandy, no it was not stupid. It makes total sense. **Sandy:** Yeah, our kids were so young. Looking back, I can tell I was like in a complete state of denial about everything going on. ## LACK OF INTIMACY IN MARRIAGE & DISCOVERY OF BETRAYAL **Anne:** I wouldn’t call it denial, because denial puts the fault on you. I would say you were seeking safety. At the time, the safest thing to you was to have a good attitude or give it more, because the alternative seemed terrifying. I wouldn’t call it denial, as just seeking safety and the alternative was too scary. The reason why I don’t want to call it denial is because they purposefully confuse, [manipulate and lie](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/3Xg0oVqXakA). So it’s not like you’re in denial about something that you know. It only confirms that you were a victim of psychological and emotional abuse. It sounds like you tried the oh, I’ll have it with him whenever he wants. I’ll try to be a better mom. I’ll try to be better. Those things didn’t work. Then you find out about the pictures. Where do you go after that? What happens after you find out, he produces pornography of me. And he’s posting this online without my consent. **Sandy:** I started therapy, and the therapist was like, have people around you that help you feel safe. Have people that you can talk to at any point, friends, family, whoever that is. Maybe it’s just one or two people. Do everything you can to get back into doing things that you enjoy, that you find healing. In the meantime, I was trying to figure out, okay, but how do I live with this person? Because at the time, I didn’t know that I wanted to get divorced or anything. I was just trying to figure out which way was up. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## CONSIDERING PRESSING CHARGES FOR ABUSE **Anne:** Did anybody at the time, did anyone indicate to you that you could press charges? **Sandy:** Yeah, because I was still speaking with a person on the rape hot line pretty regularly. So I mentioned to this person about the pictures. They said I would need to get the police involved to get the pictures down, but be aware that if you go to the police, they may, in fact, press charges even if you don’t want them to. If he gets put on the offender list, he would lose his job. I could not make a decision, in my state of shock and trauma. **Sandy:** I told him we need to get these pictures taken down. He said, okay, I’ll hire a private company. He told me the pictures were taken down by this private company he hired. **Anne:** One of the questions I have is, looking back now, do you think it would have been better to press charges? **Sandy:** I do now. Obviously, I’m not completely healed. I do your [meditations to heal from betrayal trauma](/clarity/) in the workshop, so now I’m in a place where I can talk about it a little easier. ## GOING TO THE POLICE **Sandy:** I actually went to the police because I had panic attacks that the pictures weren’t actually down, and I thought, I don’t know. He just continues to do things that make me nervous, even though we’re not married and we’re not living together or anything. We share custody of the kids, but trauma comes back and I sometimes freak out, right? I thought, Okay, I’m just going to go to the police. I had the list from the company he hired of all the links, which was six pages worth of links to my images. This is obviously abuse. When I take this to the police and they say okay, we’ll look into it. Two years have passed since the crime. I did find out they are officially down. The company took them down, but they didn’t seem to think I could press charges. They didn’t seem to care that this was done, and I was told, “Well, there’s nothing we can do”. It was two years ago, how can something be such a crime? He could have gone to jail or put on the offender list. So many things could have happened two years ago if I had reported it. But now that it’s been two years, they’re like I don’t see anything happening if we report this. ## IS IT THE ABUSER’S VOICE TELLING YOU NOT TO REPORT THE ABUSE? **Anne:** One of the things I’m trying to help women understand is that when you don’t report something immediately, there are good reasons to report and good reasons not to report. We’re never judgmental about women reporting or not reporting. I want women to know that the abuse talking is usually the sense of, I can’t report this or shouldn’t report it for some reason. Generally speaking, most women regret not reporting. Once they get past the trauma and feel better. If any victim is listening right now and they’re thinking, yeah, my husband did a crime, and I haven’t reported it, and should I report it or not? I would submit that the most likely thing happening is if he has [covert narcissist traits](/covert-narcissist-traits/). It’s the abuse telling you not to report. You’re so used to this abuse voice in your head, and also the societal scripting or perhaps religious scripting, like he will lose his job or what about him? I had a discussion with a friend the other day, and she was like, “We need to do these things and hold them accountable out of compassion for them. So that they can change.” But I said, it’s interesting that as a victim of abuse, you don’t have to justify your actions through the lens of “it’s the most compassionate thing to do so he can change.” You could also do it just out of sheer anger. You don’t have to be like I need to do it from a place of love. No, you can actually call the police from a place of anger, from a place of trauma, or from a place of anything you want. It’s fine. ## VICTIMS CAN LET THE JUSTICE SYSTEM DECIDE THE LEGAL CONSEQUENCES FOR ABUSE **Anne:** I think society has said to victims, “You can’t be an angry, bitter woman. If you’re going to do it, you have to do it from some place of forgiveness or compassion. It’s just something for people to think about, that as a victim of abuse, you don’t owe your perpetrator anything. **Sandy:** I completely agree now. There’s no way it was my fault. That’s how I look at it now. Whereas before it was like you said. You can’t do this to him. It would destroy him and be so bad. It would be bad for his job. As well as thinking about our kids too. Besides, I did not do these things. I should not have to decide whether he goes to jail. I was the victim. And I felt like that weight was on me to decide what his fate was. **Anne:** Right, and just leave that up to the justice system, really. If someone witnessed someone stealing a car, you might be shaken up, you might pick up the phone, and you might be like shaking because you saw this car get hijacked. Let’s just pretend. Someone would not say to you, Oh let’s stop shaking before you call the police. Let’s make sure you’re doing it from a place of loving and compassion for the guy that stole the car. Nobody says that. ## ABUSIVE MEN USUALLY COMMIT TO STOP, BUT KEEP DOING IT MORE COVERTLY **Anne:** Talk about when you decide to end the relationship and get a divorce. **Sandy:** I spent about a year convincing him that what he did was obviously not right, but he didn’t understand why he needed to go to therapy. He basically was like, “I’m sorry, I won’t do it again.” I said, “No, you need help.” In fact, he had one he spoke to for a while, and I asked to sit in on conversation to talk about some of my concerns. I realized, with this therapist, he did not tell her half of what was going on. And I said, “What about this and this?” I said, “Don’t you see there’s a pattern with the pictures, him following me around with the camera, the camera in the bedroom, and pictures online? There’s a pattern here. There’s something wrong with him.” At this point, I was just starting to learn about addiction, pornography addiction, that kind of stuff. And the therapist says, “Oh, you didn’t tell me about that.” And I just thought, Oh my gosh. At that point, he moved out. **Anne:** Did any of the therapists that work with you or him say that he’s an abuser? **Sandy:** No, they didn’t. ## NON-CONSENSUAL TOUCH AND LACK OF INTIMACY IN MARRIAGE **Sandy:** At one point, I read a book about abuse, and I felt like he abused me. I’m pretty sure he has, and it was my investigation, although when my mom asked about what’s going on with you guys. I said, “I have a [manipulative husband](/manipulative-husband/ "I said he's been sexually abusing me.").” I used words about abuse before, but it was almost like I had to convince myself that this was abuse. Because he wasn’t hitting me. It wasn’t all the things that you normally see or hear about. The moment I remember looking up: Is non consensual pornography abuse. Is rape abuse. It’s okay, yes, of course, these things are. I shouldn’t have to be Googling this. **Anne:** Is that when you found [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](/podcast/)? **Sandy:** I found Betrayal Trauma Recovery through a friend who is from a different support group. **Anne:** When you got here to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, were you like oh, this makes sense. Because a lot of people will Google that stuff, and they won’t find anything. And then when they find us, they’re like, Oh, finally, somebody gets it. Or did you find other places that you felt understood? **Sandy:** I think when I was Googling things, I was really just strictly looking for definitions. Definition of rape, definition of non consensual pornography, voyeurism. These are crimes, these are things you go to jail for. It seems obvious that’s abuse. For whatever reason, it gave me comfort to have the correct terms, to have the right labels. ## CHALLENGES WITH THERAPY **Anne:** Yeah, he’s going to a therapist, you go to the therapist, and you’re like, whoa. Therapy’s not gonna work. You’ve also got that going on, where you recognize the abuse, but nobody’s saying he’s an abuser **Sandy:** Yeah. So he moves out, he continued to see his therapist, I continued to see mine. It was interesting, because he admits to me that his therapeutic goals were just to be a better husband. Whereas my therapeutic goal was to heal from trauma. We were not going down the same path. **Anne:** His therapeutic goal was not to “not be a rapist.” His therapeutic goal is to be a better husband. So you’re recognizing, wait a minute, there’s some serious stuff wrong here. **Sandy:** I feel like even after he moved out, I was always trying to relay the seriousness of the situation, and he never quite got that. Even when I pointed out this is addiction, you need to see somebody who maybe specializes in that. He just said there’s nobody in our area. I’ll just get some books and read up on it. **Anne:** Did you ever confront him and say you’re abusive at that time? **Sandy:** I didn’t. Essentially, after a year of trying to convince him that he needs to work through these big issues. That he needs to essentially protect me from himself is what needs to happen, which he never understood. ## THE CONSEQUENCES WOMEN FACE WITH LACK OF INTIMACY IN MARRIAGE **Sandy:** That’s when I said, I can’t do this anymore. It seemed like he was doing the bare minimum. He’d say, “Look, I’m in therapy. I’m doing well. How many other guys would go to therapy?” I couldn’t take the abuse and lack of intimacy in marriage anymore. It seemed like playing this game, I was done. I can’t describe it any other way. **Anne:** That makes sense. What happened at that point? **Sandy:** It took me a while to file, because I think I wanted to make sure for whatever reason. I could tell he was getting desperate and didn’t know what to do. He found a CSAT therapist at that point who wanted to talk to me. They’re very much “We usually work together.” And I said, “My therapist says, no.” **Anne:** We absolutely do not recommend women go to an addiction therapist. We don’t recommend [12-Step for wives of addicts](/12-step-for-wives-of-addicts/) or going to therapy with a Certified Sexual Addiction (CSAT) therapist, because they don’t recognize the abuse. They don’t view him as an abuser. Even if they did, because abusers lie. When abusers go to therapy, they end up weaponizing the therapy they learn against their victims. ## HOW AN ADDICTED HUSBAND THINKS ABOUT LACK OF INTIMACY IN MARRIAGE **Sandy:** One of the comments I should share. This an example of how serious, or not serious. I guess when they first enter in, they tell them, no stimulation for 90 days, because you need to completely reset your system. And he comes to me saying, Can you believe I have to go three months without it and it’s swimsuit season? I was like, Oh my gosh. **Anne:** But the other thing we need to talk about is that you went to an addiction recovery therapist and they didn’t tell you this is an abuse situation. They’re looking at him as a addict, not as an abuser. **Sandy:** Right, they don’t look at it as abuse. **Anne:** So that is super dangerous for victims as well, because what this really is emotional, psychological, and sexual abuse. **Sandy:** He seemed committed to it, I guess is the best word. But I thought if he wants to get healthy on his own, that’s great, but I can’t stay in this relationship. ## MEDIATION TO HEAL FROM MARITAL ABUSE **Sandy:** We decided to do mediation instead of hire lawyers for our divorce, which worked well. Thankfully, he was cooperative about it. I don’t think he’s in recovery anymore. He must have given up on it a while back. We have three kids together, and I want to make sure they’re safe. That’s my main concern. **Anne:** I think it’s validating to see that their behaviors haven’t changed. The fake recovery, we’ll call it, was a [grooming phase](/is-my-husband-grooming-me/) where they thought, “Oh, I can show that I’m a good person or I can “prove” I’m a good person.” Now that you’re divorced, and you recognize that he’s still abusive, and exhibits abusive behaviors. What have you found helpful for your ongoing healing? ## PROCESSING TRAUMA THROUGH ART **Sandy:** I’m a ceramic artist, sculptor. I just poured my emotion into clay, creating sculptures that depict women either struggling or holding some emotion. It was freeing to do that. **Anne:** Thank you so much for sharing today. **Sandy:** Thank you. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast **Tags:** abusive relationship --- ### [Post-Traumatic Growth Treatment For Divorce After Emotional Abuse](https://www.btr.org/treatment-for-divorce/) **Published:** December 3, 2024 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Here's how women can heal after betrayal, and what resources work best. **Content:** Women seeking treatment for divorce following the devastation of betrayal and a life they didn’t expect often ask, “Will I *ever* be okay again?” It’s hard to imagine at first that they can make something meaningful for themselves and their children out of something so painful. However, post-traumatic growth is real and here are a few key things to remember when you feel overwhelmed by what is happening now. ## KEY STEPS: POST-TRAUMATIC GROWTH TREATMENT FOR DIVORCE ### 1. KNOW THE TRUTH ABOUT WHAT’S REALLY HAPPENING NOW A lot of people think that divorce should be the solution. Like if you’ve been emotionally abused and you’re getting divorced, then you’re not gonna be emotionally abused anymore in theory. But that’s not what happens in real life. Many women continue to be emotionally and psychologically abused by their soon-to-be ex-husband throughout the divorce process. So understanding that it’s continuing to happen right now can help you feel like you’re not crazy when other people are like, “I thought you were getting divorced, like, why can’t you move on?” It’s not that you’re not moving on, you 100% are, it’s that you’re continuing to be abused currently. Even if you’re not filing for divorce, a good place to start to determine what is going on in your relationship is by taking an [emotional abuse test.](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/) ### 2. SAFETY IS AN ESSENTIAL TREATMENT FOR DIVORCE AND EMOTIONAL ABUSE [The foundation for post-traumatic growth is emotional and psychological safety](/boundaries-in-marriage/ "What Is Safety And Why Do I Need Boundaries?"). If you’re being gas-lit and manipulated all the time, your brain isn’t safe from his continued lying. I don’t know about you, but I think every woman deserves to feel safe in her own home and body. And that includes being with people who are emotionally and psychologically safe. People who don’t lie to her constantly. The problem with going through the divorce process is you’re trying to heal from all the emotional abuse you’ve experienced in the past while it’s currently still happening, and you have to contact him, especially if you have kids together. However, during this process, if you learn how to protect yourself from the continued lying and manipulation, that creates a powerful sense of safety, which helps you heal and propels you to continue to move forward toward the healthy life you’ve always wanted. You can learn how to protect yourself using emotional safety strategies in [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). ### 3. POST-TRAUMATIC GROWTH STARTS WITH CARING FOR YOURSELF If you’ve been emotionally abused and divorce is the result, it’s going to be painful no matter what. You probably won’t feel like you’re handling it well, and maybe other people will imply you’re not handling it well, but I promise you, you’re handling it really well. It’s an extremely difficult situation, and you are doing the best you can, and it’s amazing. So good job. Post-traumatic growth isn’t escaping the pain or dealing with it perfectly. It’s more like holding on for dear life, looking at the light at the end of the tunnel, knowing that you will get to safety eventually, especially if you have the support of women who’ve been through it before. Divorce is one of the most difficult topics that we discuss in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions, but it’s essential that women going through this process have a safe space to process their emotions and thoughts. Attend [a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session](/group/ "Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group") TODAY and discover a community committed to helping you heal from a divorce you didn’t want. ### KEY Points FROM THIS EPSIODE: - [Knowing the truth about what’s really happening](#is-my-husband-emotionally-abusive) - [Healing through shifting your focus from “we” to “me”](#post-traumatic-growth) - [What overcoming really looks like: holding on to values](#overcoming-emotional-abuse) - [Safety is an essential treatment for divorce and emotional abuse](#emotional-safety) - [Learning to reconnect with and trust yourself again ](#trusting-your-gut) ![Heal from Divorce](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Heal-From-Divorce.webp "Heal from Divorce")## TRANSCRIPT: HEALING TREATMENT FOR DIVORCE YOU DIDN’T WANT **Anne:** Welcome Ava. **Ava:** Thank you. I appreciate you having me here. Most people I think heading into divorce would call it the worst time of their life. Just the amount of undoing and falling apart feels entirely overwhelming. And then, sometimes a year later or years later, we will look back and see that what we went through shaped us in some meaningful way, that likely couldn’t have happened without all that catastrophe. **Anne:** For me, it’s been a number of years, and now I feel that way. I’ve learned so much the hard way. I’m always learning things the hard way. **Ava:** I don’t think there’s any other way. **Anne:** We all thought, no, no, no, I can handle it or do it this way. And I’ll be fine. And we didn’t understand the situation. Or we didn’t understand the consequences. Then we were stuck with them, and now we all know better, but we all know better too late. ## UNCOVERING TRUTHS ABOUT YOUR SPOUSE **Ava:** Yeah, you don’t understand who your spouse is. And as you move through divorce, you uncover truths that you either previously weren’t aware of or that come to light in new ways. And especially when abuse is involved, it can be particularly devastating. **Anne:** Well, and I think everyone listening to this podcast understands they’re in a relationship with an abusive man. That’s who this podcast is for. But the divorce process helps women understand the level of abuse they’re experiencing. Which is often way more extreme than they ever realized, and that’s why it’s so devastating, and they may need specialized treatment for divorce. Because they’re not aware of how abusive the person is, they’re not prepared. They don’t practice strategic ways of dealing with an abuser beforehand. Because they don’t know they need to do it until they’ve tried all the other things, and they’re like, this is really, really bad. I always want to find some way to help victims avoid learning that. But I don’t think there is any other way to learn it other than trial and error. You think, no, I can deal with this person rationally. ## THE LEGAL PROCESS & CHALLENGES IN TREATMENT FOR DIVORCE **Anne:** And then you realize later, I couldn’t. But nobody jumps from zero to this person is a scary person. Unless they’ve had a lot of experience with that person. **Ava:** Right, and so much of that is encountering the reality of it. What you’re talking about, trying to avoid the path through. It’s exactly that. You can’t change the way you address reality until you’re looking at it. And to look at it is so painful. **Anne:** Especially when you share kids. **Ava:** Especially. **Anne:** The kid part is so hard, because you are continually being abused through the divorce process. And then after you’re divorced. So then it’s learning how to protect yourself from the abuse post divorce. Which is so, so hard. **Ava:** And that can be particularly sticky. When you have an abuser who is constantly trying to insert themselves in what it looks like for you to have a life. ## HEALING TREATMENT FOR DIVORCE: SHIFTING FOCUS FROM “WE” TO “ME” **Anne:** Mm hmm. It’s not just related to treatment for divorce, but also to abuse recovery in general. Moving forward with the life you want to create, regardless of what he’s doing or choosing to do. **Ava:** Right. The years we’re investing in marriage are a “we.” We’re always thinking about the “we,” even if that we is filled with abuse. We’re still thinking, how can I make this “we” better? To separate in a way that starts to only consider “me.” And that can feel like a big jump at first. It sounds selfish. It sounds a little myopic in the way you’re thinking about it. But when we think what is best for me, we start to get a lot more creative about the activities that we’re going to undertake to get through this painful experience of divorce. **Anne:** Yeah, and let’s pretend you weren’t going to get divorced. You would still move from a “we” to a “me” place. The whole point of abuse recovery and healing is to find the kind of life you want, and start making your way toward that life. **Ava:** Yeah, when you get an abusive situation, where your will and your ego cannot overcome it, you don’t get to live the way everybody else does. And so, I’m going to have to adult in ways that sometimes seem unfair, because not everybody else has to do it. But for me, it’s still the most necessary part of what it means to be a free, full individual. ## LIVING FREE & FINDING INDEPENDENCE **Anne:** And that’s a big deal. You’ve lived for 45, 50, or 30 years in a different way. And this will be a totally different way of perceiving the world, of interacting with the world. **Ava:** Yeah, and it’s a breaking and remaking. I think some people resist this post-traumatic growth treatment for divorce because they don’t think it should be happening, and it shouldn’t have to happen. The truth is, anyone who’s gone on any meaningful spiritual adventure has this breaking and remaking moment. You’ll get several chances in life where you learn how to become the kind of person who actually can handle far more than you realized. **Anne:** it really is a miracle, at least with my own personal story. When I look back and think about the times where I knew I could not handle it. I knew I couldn’t, in my gut, in my soul, it was like, this is too much. This is too hard. I shouldn’t have to do this. Why am I forced to do it? And now looking back and thinking, I did handle it. Like, even in those moments where I knew I couldn’t, now I’m like, I was. And the same thing with all our listeners, you are doing it. It might not feel like it. You might feel terrible. You’re taking one small step at a time. And when you look back, you’ll realize I survived. I did handle that. ## YOU’RE PROBABLY HANDLING IT BETTER THAN YOU THINK **Anne:** Even if it feels like you’re not currently doing that. **Ava:** Yeah, we have an imagination that handling looks like I got my nails and my hair done. I’m in a great outfit, and I have a good attitude about it. That’s not what handling it looks like. None of us have made it through the darkest moments of our lives, looking like we were handling it. What handling it looks like is allowing the complete destruction of what was. And we resist that, because we don’t want it to be that way. Therefore, it shouldn’t have to be that way. But handling it has a lot more to do with surrendering to the fact that it’s going to happen anyway. And aligning myself with the fact that I will actually make it through. And who do I want to be as I do it? **Anne:** I like it when you said, this shouldn’t be happening, I don’t want it to happen. It feels like you’re disembodied or watching yourself from far away and thinking, wait, wait, wait, this cannot be happening. And then realizing it is happening. I’m guessing that’s probably why many women don’t prepare or get a lot of information they need beforehand. And then they’re struggling throughout their divorce. And need treatment for divorce. ## WHAT OVERCOMING REALLY LOOKS LIKE **Ava:** And you know, that resistance of “it shouldn’t be this way.” Resistance always exposes us to what we value. Up until now, I valued family, safety, contentedness, and it seems like those things are now going away. How can I still value a sense of contentedness and family, and make that happen for me and my children? When it’s not going to happen in the context of what I believe is typical for everybody else. **Anne:** You saying that reminds me of something that I thought was important, and that was putting Christmas lights up. So even just a little simple thing. But to me, having Christmas lights outside my house for my kids means I care about my family. I care about Christmas. I’m going to continue to uphold traditions I had before, but how do I get these things on my house? This was overwhelming. So I paid a kid in the neighborhood 20 bucks, and he put my Christmas lights up. But when they were up, I felt like I’m living this value that I thought I had to depend on someone else for. Overcoming that and then overcoming the next thing, maybe it’s mowing the lawn, maybe it’s a family reunion. I don’t know what that next thing is, but just one thing at a time. And then now, a number of years later, Christmas lights are not that important to me. But at the time, that was a symbol of something. Putting them up was a treatment for divorce. ## POST-TRAUMATIC GROWTH TREATMENT FOR DIVORCE: HOLD ON TO YOUR VALUES **Anne:** That’s one thing I want women to think of too. You might be putting a lot of value on something like Christmas lights, thinking I have to do this thing. This thing matters, but it’s too hard or too expensive. And taking a step back and maybe realizing, is there something else I can do to feel like I’m supporting my family and have these family values? Realizing what your base motivation is is always a good step for taking the next step forward. Because there will be things that we cannot do. We’re not super people. And so through divorce, there’s going to be maybe things we’re not able to do that we want to do that we think are like the epitome of what our values are. But we can be creative and roll with the punches. You can continue to keep values even if it doesn’t look the way we thought it should look originally and as we seek treatment for divorce. **Ava:** Right, the knee jerk response is to look at the activity. Well, we can’t do the things we used to do because of this explosion in our life, and what your encouragement is. How do we step back and go? There’s a value behind this activity. How do I tweak the activity to match what my life looks like now? ## REALISTIC HEALING TREATMENT FOR DIVORCE **Ava:** So that I can preserve that value. Even though I may have lost the exact tradition or way of doing it. I will still communicate the value to my people. The essence of the holidays meant time as a family. What does that mean when I have 50% time, and how do I keep these values alive and be open to a different expression of them? **Anne:** And many of the things that I thought were super important, when it got down to it, they were actually quite hollow. Spending time with my kids in a different way was way more important, and that is what I’ve learned. Finally, after I gave up worrying about the Christmas lights. So if you’re grappling with how to heal from a divorce or get treatment for divorce you didn’t want, let’s talk about realistic healing. Like what does that look like on a practical level? **Ava:** So my former partner has already given me years, sometimes decades, of evidence of their poor predictable behavior. And yet we go into communications with an expectation higher than reality. There seems to be an impulse to still go, maybe this time when we communicate, it’ll be a little better. If I use these words, it’ll happen a little better. The reality is he’s a jerk. He’s going to talk like a jerk, and he’s not going to be cooperative. When we talk about realistic healing, it’s really being able to return again and again to reality. ## HEALING TREATMENT FOR DIVORCE: MANAGING EXPECTATIONS & COMMUNICATION **Anne:** Yeah, that is for sure. That’s why I created [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop](/livingfree/). It’s anticipating that he will act this way, and knowing how to message him in a way that protects us. **Ava:** Yeah, I love that. I didn’t want to be the person who makes it harder by expecting something out of my former partner, that they’ve clearly given no evidence they’re interested in becoming. Now, how do I text to that person? **Anne:** Yeah, I think you just hit on something. They actually did promise it in so many of these situations. Because there are these periods of oh, I will always take care of you and the kids. The grooming part feels reasonable. Knowing that all those behaviors are grooming is a hard mental shift for so many victims to realize. The words that this person says don’t mean anything when you’re getting treatment for divorce. When you’re trying to heal from a divorce you didn’t want. Actions are the only thing I can trust or believe, and when we make that shift, we can live in reality. Because they have created this world through words on purpose to keep her in the fog of abuse. He has lied, deceived, and manipulated using those grooming type words, and it’s hard to know that it was never true. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## GRIEVING & ACCEPTING REALITY **Ava:** Yeah, there’s tremendous grief involved in letting someone become the miserable mess they are. **Anne:** So for you, what was the hardest part of trying to get treatment for divorce you didn’t want? **Ava:** You know, the inability to say yes to the life I didn’t expect. When we say, no, it shouldn’t be this way. No, I can’t do this. No, I won’t do this, no, it’s not fair. When we put that no out there, that is the limit of where we can grow. And so to start to say tentatively scared, maybe even in a panicked way, I’m going to start aligning myself with reality. I can then say yes to the life I didn’t expect. From a faith based perspective, we had a plan, and that plan didn’t line up with where the divine was going to lead our lives. And when we sit and throw a very understandable, sympathetic tantrum about not getting it that way. **Anne:** I did that for a long time. **Ava:** I did too! It’s part of the process. ## THE JOURNEY OF PERSONAL TRANSFORMATION **Ava:** But the power truly comes in aligning yourself with what is. There is power in surrendering to the way it’s going to be. There is a strength in that, I think most people don’t find initially, but they warm to. And I didn’t know that before my divorce. I couldn’t trust that before my divorce, but now I can. And that means life can look very different and free in a very different way due to who I’ve become now. **Anne:** The who I’ve become now part is super interesting, because you don’t know you’re becoming that person in the process. It’s like one day you wake up and feel good, and the sun is out and you’re not crying. And then you look back and you’re like, Oh wow, I’ve changed. But you don’t know you’re changing while you’re changing. You can only recognize it looking backwards. I love like now looking back and realizing, wow, I did grow from this experience. But it’s only looking back that we get a good view of that. After you’ve begun to heal from a divorce, you didn’t want whether or not you have treatment for divorce. **Ava:** Yeah. What we don’t realize is the person you’re going to become a year from now, two years from now, 10 years from now. Who’s actually much different than the person you are right now. ## THE POWER OF SMALL STEPS IN TREATMENT FOR DIVORCE **Ava:** I think you and I both can look back and go, even in the last year, we’ve become different people. And yet when we cast forward, we always cast forward the same person. We have no imagination about who it is we could become. But I think once you have an experience of it. Like you have, and like I have, you start to go. Oh, wait, there’s something going on behind the scenes here. That’s actually growing me into something. I think we also expect those growths to be leaps. They’re going to be like big, Oh, I finally get it, like a big, oh right! Instead, it is, at least in my experience, a thousand little ahas! built on the back of daily small decisions. To move from we, to me, to figure out those values, to hire the person to get the Christmas lights. It’s those little things that compound into the big, Whoa, look at me. I am totally different. And I actually like me better now. **Anne:** So for those of you listening to this and thinking, no, no, no. That’s not going to happen. There’s not going to be a day where I’m going to wake up and feel good. It’s just bad, and it’s going to be bad. I want to validate that, because I lived in that for a long time. We’re here to sit in that place with you for a while. And then I also want to say, there is a light at the end of the tunnel. And right now, if that is too painful to think about, it’s okay. It’s okay to have those times of despair, hopelessness, and those emotions that we’ve all felt. ## WRITING DOWN A REALISTIC PROFILE OF WHO HE IS **Anne:** We will stand at the end of the tunnel and wait for you. And greet you gently when you get there. Because I remember when I was in that stage, and I would hear people talk about the light at the end of the tunnel, which is, I feel like I’ve arrived there now, which is great. But I remember back then being very angry, and not believing it. So I just want to leave a space if you’re in that stage right now. And considering what post-traumatic growth treatment for divorce looks like. **Ava:** Yeah, we’ll hold the hope for you until you can hold it yourself. **Anne:** Yeah, exactly. For women considering divorce or starting the divorce process, who probably have a lot of heavy and scared emotions, right? And they’re working through this. What do you think they need to know? **Ava:** I think the realistic profile of my former partner and really writing it down. This is what I can predictably count on almost every day from this person. He will ignore me and berate me. Getting clear about who you are about to divorce. So that you don’t start believing the false promises. Like you mentioned, you go, this is the person I’m divorcing. **Anne:** Yeah, exactly. Using the [Living Free strategies](/livingfree/) to determine his true character. **Ava:** That’s exactly it. I’m going to look at who are the people I can count on. Very tethered to reality, which again, I would say, is the most important thing to do. ## REALITY GROUNDING ITEMS **Anne:** I love that. I love that. I had a hole in the wall. It was obviously patched from a hole in the wall he punched. And whenever I think, am I crazy? Is it me? What happened? I would go down and feel that patch, and it would help ground me back in reality. Women will have different things, like a log of journal entries or a positive STD test they received. There could be any number of reality checks that when you feel unmoored a little bit and wondering what reality is. You can feel something tangible or touch something like your journal that can help ground you into reality, because reality is the way to healing in treatment for divorce. **Ava:** And then once you’ve touched that reality, journal, in a repeated way, journal. I will become the person who can get through this. Because your brain will tell you you can’t get through it, and it might be right on some level. When you can start telling your brain, you’re right, but I will figure it out. It puts your brain on the search for how it could figure it out. I’m willing to not know right now, on my way to knowing soon. I may not be bold enough right now. I may not be courageous enough right now, but I am willing to become the person who can do this. **Anne:** Yeah, that’s awesome. I love that. I remember thinking, I’m not a super person. I can’t do all these things. And I just felt so overwhelmed by the amount of things to do and the complexity of everything, like single parenting. Plus all the divorce documents, plus mowing the lawn, all the things all at once. ## HEAL FROM A DIVORCE YOU DIDN’T WANT: SEEKING HELP & BUILDING SUPPORT **Anne:** You are on your way to becoming that person that can do it. In the meantime, there were so many times where I just needed to ask someone for help. Especially when [my husband was hiding money](/is-my-husband-hiding-money/). And they were there ready to help me. And I have found that so many victims just do not want to ask for help. It’s embarrassing and humiliating, maybe sometimes they don’t feel like they even have someone they can ask. I just want to throw it out there that sometimes you can even ask a neighbor who you’re not that close to. Sometimes asking for help helps you get the support network you need. It’s a way to make friends. It’s a way to interact and connect with people. And the worst case scenario is they’ll say no. They were saying no before when you didn’t ask them. So you’re not losing anything. It feels risky, but they weren’t helping before, and they’re not helping now if they say no. **Ava:** Asking for help is also aligning yourself with reality. To say to somebody I need help, because this is the reality I live in. ## ALIGNING WITH REALITY TODAY **Anne:** That is exactly why I wrote [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](/livingfree/) strategies. Because I was in this place where I couldn’t figure out reality. It was so frustrating for eight years post divorce. I could not heal, because I was still being injured all the time. I couldn’t protect myself. So when I discovered that these strategies work, whether you’re married, separated or divorced. They help you see reality. I mean, if you’re looking for how to heal from a divorce you didn’t want, reality is the answer. And the Living Free strategies teach you how to see reality and then what to do with that reality. I think anyone who has truth or reality as their goal will get there one step at a time, one action at a time. As a woman of faith. I feel like God cares about that. So if that’s your intent and where your heart is, you will get there. God will help you get there, there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Thank you so much, Ava for coming on today’s episode. **Ava:** I really appreciate you having me here. **Anne:** Thank you so much. ## A CASE STUDY POST-TRAUMATIC GROWTH TREATMENT FOR DIVORCE – SIMONA **Anne:** Simona is a doctoral student at Auburn University. Welcome Simona. **Simona:** Well, thank you, Anne. thanks for having me on your podcast. I am so excited to be with you. **Anne:** I participated in your study, as well as many women in our Betrayal Trauma Recovery community. So let’s start with your study. **Simona:** Yeah, by the way, I loved having you on my study as a participant. I realized there’s a gap in literature surrounding post-traumatic growth. Which is the growth that people experience after a whole lot of suffering, trauma, and treatment for divorce. And I got interested in this subject because we don’t have many studies to offer hope. Because honestly, this kind of experience doesn’t make sense if we don’t have a community. So I started thinking about this. **Anne:** Does your study touch on what causes the [betrayal trauma symptoms](/betrayal-trauma-symptoms/), or just post-traumatic growth? I wonder if the participants identify the cause of the trauma as ongoing abuse. What are they identifying as the cause of the trauma? **Simona:** No, I think they might have known about their spouse’s addiction, but they didn’t know the extent of it. **Anne:** So they don’t identify the emotional and psychological abuse that they’ve been experiencing? **Simona:** Some people don’t, because they can’t define that. They don’t know that’s abuse. They need a person in their life that can say to them, this is actually abuse. This is domestic violence. and chronic stress. This is verbal abuse, manipulation, or psychological abuse. So I think many partners do not even recognize that or define it. ## CHALLENGES IN IDENTIFYING ABUSE **Simona:** Sometimes their communities do not support them to identify that. As, hey, this is a threat to my identity, my physical integrity, emotional well-being, and my children’s well-being. We are not trained, many of us, to recognize this is an actual threat. **Anne:** Why do you think in general, the therapeutic community doesn’t recognize that the trauma women experience is from abuse? Or [how to know if their husband is abusive](/how-do-i-know-if-my-husband-is-abusive/)? Why do you think they focus on maybe the disclosure or discovering it? Which is part of the abuse, it’s psychological abuse, the deception and manipulation. Because had they not been psychologically abused, they would have known that their husband had an affair or watched inappropriate material. Why do you think they don’t clearly identify it due to emotional and psychological abuse and coercion? **Simona:** I think it takes a lot of time for a person who has lived in that kind of manipulation and control to escape that chaos, haze, and fog. So I would say for me I’m missing pieces. We do not ask the right questions to assess correctly what’s going on. **Anne:** For example, if they come in and say hey, my husband is psychologically and emotionally abusing me. Then the therapist would be like, okay. But you’re saying just in general, and I know you don’t speak for all therapists. But perhaps if a person can’t identify they’re being abused. Then their therapist won’t educate them and help them identify it necessarily? They’re just going to meet them where they are even in treatment for divorce? ## BETRAYAL TRAUMA RECOVERY’S APPROACH TO ABUSE **Anne:** I think that’s why, at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, I feel comfortable saying it’s abuse. So anyone who says my husband uses explicit material will be like, oh, you’re dealing with abuse then, right out of the gate. At least for Betrayal Trauma Recovery and the women that come here, that works. We can determine where he is on this spectrum of abuse. Is he lying to you? Has he been gaslighting you? The main thing on their radar is emotional and psychological abuse and coercion. Rather than, is he in recovery? **Simona:** Right, which I appreciate. I’ve learned over the years it’s better to ask the right questions at the beginning, what’s going on there. **Anne:** If explicit material is part of the equation, it’s an abuse issue. And so there’s no reason to have a couples therapist or therapist who’s seeing both people. Because this is an abuse issue, and it’s counter indicated. The inappropriate material is the indicator that you’re working with an abuser. This is [how infidelity](/how-does-infidelity/) is harmful. So let’s talk about your study of post-traumatic growth. ## POST-TRAUMATIC GROWTH EXPLAINED **Simona:** Post-traumatic growth is the growth that happens out of that suffering. It’s really our attempt as human beings to reveal and integrate our interpretation of that trauma. In hopes to find a sense of purpose and coherence for our lives. **Anne:** In talking with women experiencing the emotional and psychological abuse associated with someone who is an addict. How do we deal with growth, since the trauma is not post? Like, it’s ongoing. **Simona:** You know, that’s a good question. From anecdotal research, yes, I think there are many partners that still live in that traumatic stress, as the threat is not over. And at that point, what I find is that yes, maybe the partners grow. And make sense of some part of their trauma, they grow in some direction. **Anne:** Rather than post-traumatic growth, would we call it maybe like, during-traumatic growth or something? What’s a word? Yeah, we should invent it right now. **Simona:** We should invent it right now. **Anne:** Current, current-traumatic growth. **Simona:** I think they grow in identity, as they’re forced to change careers, go back to school. Or to figure things out that they never had to figure out before. And so I think they grow in those areas. But yeah, I would say they’re still in chronic stress. They’re still in a situation where their ability to cope and adapt to life is very hard. Because of these circumstances, they have no control over. So they’re in constant threat. **Anne:** The trauma they’re experiencing, because it’s due to emotional and psychological abuse isn’t going to stop until they’re separated or far enough away from that harm. ## IMPACT OF TREATMENT FOR DIVORCE ON TRAUMA SURVIVORS **Anne:** Because they can’t stop him from doing it. But they can figure out a way to separate themselves and get enough space between them and the harm. Were all of them divorced? **Simona:** They’re all divorced, yes. And most of them divorced for at least two years. And even separated for longer than that, three or four years. Because that time between the traumatic event and the process of divorce does make a difference. It’s a variable, right? Time is a variable in our growth and making sense of this trauma. ![Post Traumatic Growth Summit](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Post-Traumatic-Growth-Summit.webp "Post Traumatic Growth Summit")**Anne:** So when you say the time between the traumatic event and the divorce. You’re not counting all of the traumatic events, like all the lies and emotional and psychological abuse in your study? **Simona:** No, I am not studying that. **Anne:** So the only thing you’re studying is the time after they discovered their husband was using inappropriate material. **Simona:** Right, yeah, and I think that would be an incredible variable to study. I just have not done that. And I haven’t even configured a question to consider it. And I think that would be an amazing study to see how they grow through this constant stress and constant chronic lying. Especially if you have children and are in custody negotiations or divorce. How did they grow through it? And what kind of support do they need to make sense of it? **Anne:** As you interviewed your participants. Just in general, I know that we’re not getting into specifics right now. How many of them continue to experience emotional and psychological abuse after their divorce? **Simona:** I would say about half of them, because they have young children. **Anne:** So some of the participants, did not share children? **Simona:** Some of the participants did not have any or they have full custody. ## PRIORITIZING EMOTIONAL & PSYCHOLOGICAL SAFETY IN TREATMENT FOR DIVORCE **Anne:** Okay, so the ones with full custody, did you find they had less abuse incidents? **Simona:** Yes, because many of them in my study were able to figure out how to separate from that person. And keep them out of their lives as much as possible. **Anne:** So in that sense, it was post-traumatic stress, the trauma had stopped. Here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we confirm over and over again that safety is the treatment. I mean, these women don’t need therapy. They just need to get away from abuse. So that’s why I developed [The Betrayal Trauma Living Free Workshop](/livingfree/). Which first helps them identify their husband’s true character. ![Post Traumatic Growth Workshop](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Post-Traumatic-Growth-Workshop.webp "Post Traumatic Growth Workshop")Like what exactly is going on. And then gives them safety strategies to actually protect themselves from the harm. And that is the treatment for divorce. If they’re not being abused, they do great. So what are some things that surprised you about what women learned and gained? And when I say gained, I mean, obviously nobody wants to be abused. What surprised you about what women gained through their post traumatic growth? **Simona:** There were about 10 themes that came up consistently, with every one of my participants. They have to tell their stories. They go back and forth between telling me the story of abuse in the marriage and their post-traumatic growth. And how they’ve come to this place. ## THEMES FROM THE STUDY ABOUT POST TRAUMATIC GROWTH **Simona:** What surprised me was honestly, every one of my participants talked extensively about how they had a gut feeling. And they knew that this person was not healthy enough to be a husband, father and partner. And they were not connected somatically to their bodies. **Anne:** My guess is they were always trying to resist the abuse. They talked to their husband about it, but they were manipulated out of it. I mean, their husband was like, no, you’re crazy. Of course, that’s not happening. Or you know, a therapist may have said. Let’s improve your communication. Or they went to clergy, and the clergy said, “Are you a good wife? Have faith and pray.” So, I think it was more external factors. I mean, they all discounted her feelings. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146)It’s likely that she actually expressed them to people, and they were discounting her all the time. And being a reasonable, normal, healthy person, she’s taking into account their perspectives. And she’s thinking, maybe they are right. Instead of thinking, I need to go with my gut feeling, and all these other people don’t know what they’re talking about. I mean, that’s a really difficult thing for a reasonable woman to do. Because if all these other people say he’s fine and that things are good. Then I might be crazy to think that my opinion matters more than these 10 other people’s opinions. I mean, it only proves how reasonable women are, I think. ## CONNECTING WITH GUT FEELINGS **Anne:** When you said somatic, for our listeners who might not know what that means. Can you define that? **Simona:** Yeah, somatic means being in your body with your senses, being connected to yourself to be in tune with your sense of safety, your sense of value, your sense of integrity in your body. I am in my present tense in this place at this moment with this person. And this feels healthy, peaceful, chaotic, or just feels something, but I can’t define what it is. It just doesn’t feel quite right. **Anne:** In addition, women maybe not being trained or given permission. I also think there are so many societal, institutional or religious things where people say to women, no, no, no, it’s not that. He’s a great guy and doing well. They’ll go for help to anyone. It could be family, friends or clergy. It could be anybody. And the person they go to for help is like, oh, you know, that happened to me once, and I was just forgiving and it all worked out. Instead of digging in and helping women trust their gut. It’s amazing how many times women go for help, and then they’re talked out of it. **Simona:** I would agree with you, yes. **Anne:** So that was one of the main themes, which was that women have these somatic experiences, where they have a gut feeling where something isn’t right. But for whatever reason, they’re not able to identify it. They’re talked out of it. Can you talk about the other main themes you found? ## SPIRITUAL BYPASSING & ABUSE **Simona:** Yeah, another one that surprised me was they started being awakened to spiritual bypassing in their families and communities. Which is the idea of, we use a sense of religiosity, which is performance and rules, to bypass how we feel. To bypass healthy boundaries, to bypass talking about what is toxic. And they are awakened to this spiritual bypassing in their communities. While they realize that their higher power, and for many of my participants, it’s God. Their higher power is a person, and they want to go deeper into this authentic relationship with their higher power. Spiritual bypassing is using our religiosity, our religious beliefs, and religious rules. I would call it legalism, to bypass how we feel, to bypass the abuse, to rationalize it and minimize it. In some communities, a sign of spiritual bypassing being super spiritual, but not looking at the reality of somebody’s lack of boundaries. **Anne:** Or there’s some, I’m going to use the word magical way to not have to process the injuries. That you have incurred from the abuse. And also some kind of magical way. Also [praying for their husband to change.](/prayer-for-my-husband/) That this abusive person can literally change their character from the inside out in a sudden way. I am religious, and I don’t want to say that’s impossible, because I believe with God, all things are possible. But I also believe God has provided us with a way to change in the work, not without it. **Simona:** Yes, the Bible. There’s nothing in there where somebody uses their spirituality, their relationship to God, to avoid facing unresolved issues. Jesus did not preach that. He was good in boundaries. ## GIVE YOURSELF SOME SPACE FOR POST-TRAUMATIC GROWTH **Anne:** And I also think it’s a direct result of spiritual abuse, the abuser using these spiritual principles to blame the victim. And because they’re weaponizing spiritual principles, it gets confusing about what I believe Jesus actually intended. Which over and over again, he says, separate from wickedness. Give yourself some space. The abuser would like you to stay very close, so he can continue to exploit you. **Simona:** And don’t express your anger. **Anne:** Right, because it’s hard to exploit someone when they’re angry. You know they’re not going to do what you want if they’re mad at you, exactly. Well, Simona, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts about your study on post-traumatic growth today. **Simona:** Thank you so much. Divorce is one of the most difficult topics that we discuss in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions, but it’s essential that women going through this process have a safe space to process their emotions and thoughts. Attend [a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session](/group/ "Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group") TODAY and discover a community committed to helping you heal from a divorce you didn’t want. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma --- ### [Trailer - Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast](https://www.btr.org/trailer-betrayal-trauma-recovery-podcast/) **Published:** July 26, 2022 **Author:** Anne **Content:** She married a good guy, or so she thinks. That’s what everyone tells her anyway. So why is her marriage so confusing? [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org) is a weekly podcast featuring interviews and commentary for women whose marriages seem healthy on paper but feel confusing, lonely, or unsafe. Host Anne Blythe, M.Ed., compassionately interviews survivors and includes trauma-informed analysis to help listeners process what they’re hearing. She also uses her own lived experience as a victim of emotional and psychological abuse to illustrate how deception often keeps women from recognizing emotional and psychological abuse in real time. In fact, the point of the podcast is to educate women about how deception itself IS abuse. More than 200 in-depth interviews help listeners hear the language women use when they’re talking about marriage before they’re able to identify the abuse they’re experiencing. The show helps women name what is happening, trust their perceptions, and make informed decisions for themselves and their children. Anne is the founder and executive director of BTR.ORG, whose team has supported more than 9,000 clients. BTR offers a survivor-centered alternative to advice that isn’t helpful to a victim of abuse. I’m committed to keeping the podcast free so that all women can learn about how to detect emotional and psychological abuse in real time. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma --- ### [How To Set Boundaries With My Husband - My Struggle](https://www.btr.org/how-to-set-boundaries-with-my-husband/) **Published:** February 20, 2024 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** In this episode, the healed Anne revisits her past attempts at setting boundaries. **Content:** When Anne Blythe, M.Ed. first started podcasting years ago, she searched, “how to set boundaries with my husband?”. In this episode Anne analyzes one of her old podcast episodes. To point out to her years ago self, all the victim blaming she experienced. If you need support, see our [Betrayal Trauma Group Session Schedule](https://www.btr.org/group/ "Betrayal Trauma Group Session Schedule"). ![My Struggle to Set Boundaries with My Husband What I Learned](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Set-Boundaries-With-Your-Husband.webp "How to Set Boundaries with Your Husband the Struggle is Real")*In this early podcast episode, Anne shares her very first attempts at healthy boundaries. She refers to a 12-step program, “addict behaviors”, and addiction. Now, of course, we understand that abuse is NOT addiction, addiction therapists do NOT help abuse victims find safety, and 12-step programs can be harmful to women in abusive relationships.* ## True Boundaries Aren’t About Controlling Others’ Choices > “Every time my husband was abusive towards me, I thought that my boundary was giving him a lecture. Literally like a 40 minute lecture about how terrible things were and how I was feeling and what he should do. I thought that’s what boundaries were.” > > *Anne Blythe, Founder of BTR.ORG* ![How to Set Boundaries with Husband](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Set-Boundaries-With-Husband.webp "How to Set Boundaries with Husband")## Transcript: How To Set Boundaries With My Husband – My Struggle **Anne:** It’s just me today. And I’m actually going to analyze in real time myself from years ago. You’ll hear me describe how I started my journey to set boundaries with my toxic ex. Despite my 12 step sponsor victim blaming me. Despite my 12 step group blaming me. So, if you are wondering how to set boundaries with a toxic ex, listening to this will give you some insight into my process. Of how I came to understand how to set boundaries with my ex. I did S-Anon in the beginning of podcasting. It is a 12 step group for wives or ex wives of pornography addicts. I actually did an S-Anon group specific to my faith. SALifeline is this particular S-Anon groups name. And I was doing the 12 steps myself. I was actually a 12 step sponsor. And then I also facilitated a 12 step group. You can hear that I talk about abuse, but I don’t quite understand it. This was before Betrayal Trauma Recovery existed. It was just a podcast. So way back then, I was podcasting in my basement. I hadn’t yet brought on coaches for our group sessions or individual sessions. And hadn’t created the [Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). I was trying to figure all this out. ## Initial Misconceptions About How To Set Boundaries With My Husband **Anne:** Now, since this time, I have removed most of these episodes. I started podcasting in 2016, but if you look on Apple Podcasts, it looks like I haven’t been podcasting that long. Over time, I evolved and realized parts where I got it wrong. But I saved the audio recordings. And that’s what you’re going to hear today. I actually altered my voice back then, because I was so scared. So hopefully you’ll hear the difference between me now and back then. And back then, I went by anon for anonymous instead of Anne. I actually, haven’t heard this recording in years. So, we’re going to go through this together. I’m a little nervous, but here we go. **From Years-Ago-Anne:** So I didn’t know anything about boundaries before starting recovery. In fact, every time my husband abused me or every time he had a slip up, I thought my boundary was giving him a lecture. Literally, like a 40 minute lecture about how terrible things were, how I was feeling, and what he should do. I thought that’s what boundaries were. **Anne:** So my first thought is thank goodness that I stopped disguising my voice because I sound like a chipmunk. When I’m talking about my recovery, I was recovering from his addiction. At this point, I think, I’m not sure. Let’s keep listening and see what I say. ## Learning True Boundaries Because Of Husband’s Arrest **From Years-Ago-Anne:** I have learned since then that is not what boundaries are at all. In fact, God was merciful to me, and he taught me about boundaries in an extremely traumatic way. My husband was arrested and given a court ordered, no contact order. That was my first boundary ever. God gave it. And then I had to decide what to do with that boundary, to keep it, to not keep it. And what that boundary meant. I realized that my boundary is, keeping safe. And be safe while he continues to act out in this behavior. In my husband’s case, once he was arrested, he did not show any clear signs of recovery behaviors. There were many things that he could have done. He could have texted every day, for example, and said, “What can I do today for the kids?” He did not choose to talk to my dad, apologize to my dad about some things. There were several things he could do legally. **Anne:** At the time, I was so sad that he was not doing any of those things. https://www.btr.org/long-term-effects-of-emotional-abuse-in-relationships/I wanted our family to be together. I was not thinking about [how to stop emotional abuse from my husband](https://www.btr.org/long-term-effects-of-emotional-abuse-in-relationships/ "how to stop emotional abuse from my husband"). And was so depressed about it. I could not see how my life would ever get better. And now listening to myself, I’m thinking, thank goodness. I’m so grateful that I did not get groomed, because in my vulnerable state. [My husband groomed me](https://www.btr.org/is-my-husband-grooming-me/ "My husband groomed me") at that time by doing any of those things? I’m pretty sure his manipulation would’ve absolutely trapped me again. All right. What else did I say? ## Husband’s Lack Of Recovery Behaviors & My Knowledge Of How To Set Boundaries **From Years-Ago-Anne:** He did not show any signs of that. He did not put forth a plan. “I realize this is what happened. I’m sorry, this is my plan for recovery. This is what I’m going to do to return to the house.” He never asked to return to the house. So, for me, there was no way that I could do that. Remove or amend the do not contact order to talk with him, because he was not showing any recovery behaviors. **Anne:** When I say, he’s not showing any recovery behaviors here. I’m a little concerned for myself, because I’m thinking, are you just looking for him to check off some boxes? And again, just so grateful that he wasn’t checking boxes. That would have been really hard. ![Test and Set Boundaries with Your Husband](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Test-and-Set-Boundaries-With-Your-Husband.webp "Test and Set Boundaries with Your Husband")**From Years-Ago-Anne:** So what are boundaries? Boundaries are like fences between neighbors. They define the limits of a relationship. And provide safety and structure, and define appropriate and inappropriate engagement in the relationship. They delineate responses to inappropriate or unhealthy engagement or interactions. So first, let’s define what boundaries are and are not. Boundaries are used to define the limits of the relationships. They are healthy responses to violations of self. Boundaries are in place as trust is rebuilt in relationships. Boundareis are protection against repeated harm. Boundaries are not punishments. They are not methods of coercing or forcing behaviors. They are not a way to avoid dealing with pain. And boundaries are not used to emotionally disconnect or isolate. ## Misogynistic Victim Blaming To Make Women Feel Defective **From Years-Ago-Anne:** So, when I was not practicing boundaries, my fear, my character defects of fear or control would crop up. **Anne:** There’s some misogynistic victim blaming. I was convinced that my fear and desire to be safe was part of a character defect . So that’s why you can hear me say my character defects of fear or control would crop up. I was taught that I was defective and sick in 12 step. And that my fear was a result of my sickness. The truth is that I was actually super brave. I’m willing to let go of control, because I was observing him from a safe distance at this time, and I was really brave. So having my sponsor tell me that I had this character defect of fear and control when that was not the case at all. I was brave, and I had let go completely. Also, if I had any fear or desire to get to safety, it was because of his abuse. Not because I had some kind of character defect. So there, I can see that I still haven’t quite figured that out yet. All right, go on. **From Years-Ago-Anne:** And rather than set a boundary for myself and knowing how to set boundaries with my husband. That I would turn to my sponsor, do recovery behaviors, surrender to God’s will, and do self care. I would turn toward my husband and try and make him be safe. I literally got down on my hands and knees and begged him to love me many times. He looked at me and said, “No I won’t.” Or I begged him to be kind, and he said, “No, I’m not going to be kind to you.” ## Resisting Abuse Is Not The Same As Becoming Responsible **From Years-Ago-Anne:** And that only put me in a further state of stress. He was abusing me, and instead of detaching from my abuser, setting a boundary, and getting myself to a safe place. I could just continue to be abused by trying to force my abuser to be kind. Because boundaries are important and knowing how to set boundaries with my husband is important. The opposite is responsible for his behaviors or recovery. It is wise to self assess occasionally and determine whether you’re crossing the line into becoming responsible. Some warning signs that you may be crossing the line to becoming responsible for your husband’s behavior. They provide constant reminders of the recovery behaviors he should do. ![My Struggle to Set Boundaries with My Husband](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Set-Boundaries-With-My-Husband-1.webp "How Do I Set Boundaries with My Husband")**Anne:** Wow, I mean I was resisting abuse at the time. I wasn’t becoming responsible for his behavior. I was trying to find my way out of this. And do safety seeking behaviors, resisting the abuse. Resisting the abuse is not the same as “becoming responsible.” ## Misguided 12-Step Teachings Harm Victims **Anne:** I’m almost wondering right now with this misogynistic sort of codependent, [12 step for pornography addict](https://www.btr.org/12-step-for-wives-of-addicts/ "12 step for pornography addict") stuff that I was being taught. If their intent was to get me to “back off of resisting the abuse.” Because if I stopped resisting the abuse, he could do what he wanted and still live in proximity to me. I don’t know. I need to think about that. Let’s see what else I say about this. **From Years-Ago-Anne:** I did that constantly. And I didn’t realize that I was taking responsibility for his behavior. his anger, his abuse. I thought I was just “helping him.” ![I'm Struggling Knowing How To Set Boundaries With My Husband](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Having-Difficulties-Knowing-How-To-Set-Boundaries-With-My-Husband.webp "Having Difficulties Knowing How to Set Boundaries with My Husband")**Anne:** You didn’t realize that you were taking responsibility for his behavior because you weren’t. You were trying to get to safety. And resisting the abuse by trying to help him stop. **From Years-Ago-Anne:** Experiencing consistent intense emotional reactions to his lack of recovery behavior, absolutely. **Anne:** Isn’t that just like the ultimate euphemism? Rather than receiving the right framework to understand this from 12 step. Due to their influence in my life, I was led to believe it was my fault. That I experienced consistent, intense emotional reactions to his lack of recovery behavior, rather than the truth. Which was that I’m experiencing consistent, intense, emotional reactions due to his emotional and psychological abuse. There’s a huge difference in the way I was perceiving it then. And how I now see it. ## Realizing The Truth About Abuse & Addiction **From Years-Ago-Anne:** When he would get into his rage or be irritable, I knew it was a lack of recovery behavior. I didn’t have words for it back then, but I knew, “Oh no, something bad is coming.” I would get so much fear and so much worry that my family would be destroyed. I worried that something super bad was going to happen, and so I would go into control mode. **Anne:** Wow, wow, so women who are out there who thought of these behaviors as their lack of recovery behavior. Or their childhood trauma coming up, or their personality disorder, or something that might be the case. But for us, we experience it as abuse. So the reality is when he would go into his rage or be irritable. Back then I said, I knew it was his lack of recovery behavior. ![How to Set Strong Boundaries with My Husband](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Really-Set-True-Boundaries-with-My-Husband.webp "How to Really Set True Boundaries with My Husband")Wow, I mean, I did mention the word abuse, but it was not his lack of recovery behavior that caused the fear. But it was this abuse that caused the fear that all these euphemisms are incredibly mind-bending, but these same euphemisms are used in couple therapy, addiction recovery and in churches. Nobody, I guess even me, wanted to call it abuse back then. So here I am saying, “Oh no, something bad is coming.” And I get so much fear, and then I say, “I would go into control mode.” I blamed myself, rather than realizing I’m abused. I have so much fear for good reason. This fear is not due to my character defect. God gave me this fear, He is warning me. Something bad will happen, get to safety. I was also incorrectly interpreting that. ## Misguided Advice About Coping Mechanisms & How To Set Boundaries With My Husband **Anne:** So 12 step was not telling me to get to safety at all. The only thing they’re doing is basically saying stop resisting the abuse. And I don’t think any woman in the world can stop resisting the abuse. There’s always going to be a way that she tries to figure out how to resist it, even if she can’t resist it overtly. **From Years-Ago-Anne:** Punishing or shaming him into doing the things he has committed to do, basing your own commitment to recovery on whether or not he is doing his own recovery work, numbing out or disconnecting from your own emotions based on his behaviors. **Anne:** Wow, so here I’m being taught that if I resist the abuse, I’m punishing or shaming him. That’s like the worst thing to say to a victim. You’re not punishing your abuser by resisting his abuse. You’re not shaming your abuser by resisting his abuse. And then basing your own commitment to recovery on whether he’s doing recovery work. I didn’t even need to be going to 12 step. So for them to tell me like, you need to come to a 12 step, whether he does this. I don’t need to come to a 12 step at all, period. End of story. And then numbing out or disconnecting from your own emotions based on his behaviors. Since I don’t enjoy pain. I don’t think I’m going to look an abuse victim in the eye and tell her. Hey, when you’re in so much emotional pain that you can’t stand it. ## Blaming Myself Even Though I Was Trying To Get To Safety **Anne:** Too bad for you. Like for me, I tried not to numb or disconnect, but I needed a break from the pain. And so I would watch television. I would go out with my friends, like it’s okay to numb when the pain is so intense. That you can’t function. It’s okay to disconnect from your emotions for a minute. Oh, wow, this is really hard to listen to. **From Years-Ago-Anne:** or controlling or manipulating. Now I did not know I was doing that at the time. I was. I just thought I was trying to serve my husband. And help him and express my needs, and there is nothing wrong with helping someone, or expressing your needs. Or stating to your husband what your needs are. My problem was that he was not safe in those moments and so I would be further abused. **Anne:** I am so close, so close. I wasn’t safe in those moments. But instead, I think the cause is his lack of recovery behaviors, rather than realizing that the cause is his abuse. And 12 Step tells me that I’m controlling and trying to manipulate him. And I’m saying, I didn’t know I was doing it at a time. It’s because I wasn’t, [he says I’m controlling but I’m not.](https://www.btr.org/he-says-im-controlling-but-im-not/ "he says I'm controlling but I'm not.") I was trying to get to safety by communicating with an abuser. It would have been nice to know that at the time. But I am learning about boundaries with my husband. So let’s see what else I say about boundaries. ## Setting Boundaries With My Husband **From Years-Ago-Anne:** So good boundaries will help you avoid these types of responses. Your own triggers in recovery and emotional responses sometimes lead to unhealthy coping. This could include emotionally disconnecting, punishing, controlling, or micromanaging others behaviors. Personal boundaries, will allow you to make healthy choices in the face of powerful emotional triggers. I wish I knew that then. **Anne:** Oh, the things you don’t know now even, wow. Why is this such a process? Why is this such a process to understand what’s going on? My poor self. There’s a euphemism again for abuse, powerful, emotional triggers. Those are just emotional and psychological abuse. Personal boundaries will allow you to make healthy choices in the face of abuse. And then they want you to avoid your “unhealthy coping,” which would be emotionally disconnecting. No, you definitely want to emotionally disconnect from emotional abuse. Punishing, which I guess is resisting the abuse. Like I’m not going to talk to the abuser. Controlling, trying to actually do something that will get you to safety. Like not being in his presence anymore. Or micromanaging others behaviors. The thing about micromanaging is that in this context, you feel bad. They’re making it seem like I’ve got some sort of character defect. Rather than me realizing he’s not safe. So. Being in proximity to him will be harmful to me. But it’s not because I’m trying to micromanage anything. It’s because I don’t know what else to do. And I’m resisting the abuse. And I just want to be safe. ## Reflecting On Trust & Detachment **From Years-Ago-Anne:** I wish I had been in recovery, but I wasn’t. And I am genuinely sorry. And I am looking forward to steps eight and nine, so that I can make amends for those things. I’m actually genuinely embarrassed that I participated in those behaviors. When I honestly and authentically thought I was helping him. **Anne:** So adding onto the pain of being an abuse victim. I have compounded this guilt that I wasn’t in recovery for my sickness. That I had been participating in these like awful behaviors that aren’t awful at all. I wasn’t doing anything wrong. Then I say that I’m looking forward to making amends for resisting abuse and seeking safety. And then I’m embarrassed that I was resisting abuse. And back then, I thought I was authentically trying to help him stop his abuse, by setting boundaries. So I was resisting abuse in that effort. What else did I have to say back then? **From Years-Ago-Anne:** Examples of personal boundary statements and setting boundaries with my husband are, I can choose my responses to his slips or relapses. I do not have to allow my trauma to control how I respond. Instead of punishing or hurting him, I will take care of myself in a healthy way. When he has earned my trust, I will share with him my feelings and needs. This was my main problem, that I did not trust my husband, especially when he was in addict mode, when he was angry or irritable. ## Dealing With A Lack Of Trust **Anne:** Another euphemism here, addict mode rather than abuse. So instead of saying the main problem was that he was abusive, and I didn’t trust him due to his abuse. Instead, I say, especially when he was in addict mode, when he was angry or irritable, which equates to abuse. **From Years-Ago-Anne:** So I tried to make him trustworthy, to take responsibility for his actions. Or I tried to make him compassionate or kind, and that never worked. Instead, I needed to detach, set a boundary, take care of myself in a healthy way, and then see if he worked toward earning my trust. **Anne:** The good news, I’m learning to set effective boundaries that I have perfected over the years. Now I’m completely safe. And I teach those in the [Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). I was victim blamed. They told me that I was “allowing my trauma to control how I responded.” That was not happening. I was interpreting it as some kind of character defect, rather than just seeing. Hey, I was resisting abuse. And I was doing the best I could, thank goodness. **Anne:** It works, so I did that and that eventually got me to safety, even if I didn’t understand exactly what was happening. While being victim blamed in the process. **From Years-Ago-Anne:** When I finally did that, let go, and observed from a distance to see if he would earn my trust again. He didn’t attempt to do that. From what I could tell, there were absolutely no attempts to earn back my trust. ## Effective Boundary Setting Is Essential **From Years-Ago-Anne:** Another one is that I can decide when and how I begin to trust him again. I will work on my own recovery, regardless of his commitment to his recovery. Instead of zoning out and emotionally disconnecting when I’m in pain, I will reach out and share with others in my life who are safe. I think that’s essential. Also I would always reach out to my husband. I rarely zoned out or emotionally disconnected, but my husband wasn’t safe. So I reached out and tried to connect with someone who was emotionally unsafe, and that always put me in a very precarious position. I will choose not to be responsible for his choices. And here’s one last example of a personal boundary statement with my husband. I can choose to love and accept myself even when his addiction affects the way I perceive myself. **Anne:** The point of creating the [Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) was to explain effective boundaries in a way that was not victim blaming at all. That anyone enrolled could clearly see that all these things were due to his manipulation and lying, and that I wasn’t at fault for any of it. Because as I explain, some of it is right on. The problem is I’m not identifying that the abuse is what’s causing me to react in the way I am. And my reactions are resistance to abuse, and that is healthy and good. ## A Painful Story of Emotional Abuse **Anne:** So I’m about to tell a story. That includes part of my faith, which is attending the temple. The temple is all about love. And an eternal family. And so when you hear me tell this story, we’ve just been to this worship service. That’s focused on how Christ helps us feel connected. And a few days before, we went to the temple when this incident occurred. Which you’re going to hear, happens. But he hadn’t repaired in between. Also, before you hear the story, I hadn’t really come to grips with what he was doing here. Now I know that this was this flat out manipulation and psychological abuse. He was trying to mess with my head. But he wouldn’t just tell me openly what his intentions were or what was going on. He was trying to get me to react emotionally and psychologically abusively, because he had a goal in mind. **From Years-Ago-Anne:** I’ve been thinking a lot about one night when my husband was extremely calm. He came to me and said, “I know you’ve asked me your whole marriage to tell you that you’re beautiful. And the reason I have not said that is because I don’t think you’re beautiful.” So I should have detached right then. And I’m like, okay, he is very unsafe, but instead I decided to engage with him and fight him and say, that’s not true. You do think I’m beautiful. And then he said this, and this is the part that hurt me so deeply. He said, well, physically you’re beautiful, but your personality and who you are, make you ugly. ## Continuing Emotional Abuse & Setting Boundaries **From Years-Ago-Anne:** Your face when you are scared or frightened, and your personality and the way you interact with me. And who you are from the inside is completely, I can’t ever tell you that you’re beautiful. And I was absolutely devastated. That is the beginning of things getting really bad for us, and he never repaired that. There was never a time. In fact, we went to the temple, and we did sealings. I don’t know how long after that. And we went to the celestial room, and we were holding hands. I just could not do it. Because here was a man, who could not tell me that I was beautiful, who did not think that my soul was beautiful. Even if he didn’t like my hair, or he thought I was a little overweight, he could not bring himself to tell me that I was beautiful. To him, that was just totally lying, and I thought, I can’t be with someone like this. I remember standing up in the celestial room and walking off in pain and hurt. Completely and totally hung out to dry by my husband, who seemed fine and had never tried to repair that. ![Actually How Do I Set Boundaries with My Husband](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Actually-How-To-Set-Boundaries-With-My-Husband.webp "Actually How to Set Boundaries with My Husband")That was before I had boundaries. Now, I know that I would have set a boundary. And said, okay, when I feel safe and when you can see me, and when your perceptions of me are not abusive. Because those perceptions in and of themselves, that’s what made him abusive, are the way he perceived me. He perceived me a certain way, that I was trying to hurt him, or that my questions were shamey or whatever. And really, that was what propagated the abuse. ## Abusers Lie On Purpose To Harm **Anne:** That’s what I thought back then, but now I actually don’t think that, I think he was lying. I think he was lying on purpose to harm me. To get me to react so that he’d have an excuse to do what he wanted to do. I’m not sure exactly what he was doing, but he was leaving the house at night to perhaps solicit prostitutes or maybe having an affair. I’m not sure. Because he would leave, and then come home, and I wouldn’t know what was going on. But now I know that he was lying on purpose. He didn’t necessarily perceive me that way, but he wanted me to believe he did. Because that would hurt me more than knowing that he was lying. **From Years-Ago-Anne:** I needed to set a boundary and learn how to set boundaries with my husband and tell him he was not abusive. It takes a long time, and that has never happened. So I’m still setting and learning about how to set boundaries now. I realized I had never felt emotionally connected. Like, there had never been a time in our marriage where I had initiated intimacy because I felt emotionally connected. I was doing it just to keep, you know, just because I thought he would want to. Not because I felt this deep emotional connection. And my husband rarely, rarely initiated. And when he did, it was because he wanted to. Not because he felt emotionally connected with me in the last 10 months. My husband has not been safe enough for me to be with or even communicate with. ## How To Set Boundaries With My Husband: The Importance of Enforcing Boundaries **From Years-Ago-Anne:** So implementing, enforcing, boundaries with my husband is important, and that’s the hardest part. It’s easy to think about what boundaries you’re going to have, it’s easy to tell someone what your boundaries will be, but it’s very difficult to actually enforce them. Like I said, I did not have any boundaries before my husband’s arrest. I was working toward figuring out what those were, and then God stepped in and said, Boom! This is gonna be your boundary, and I’m so grateful that he provided a safe means for my escape from my abuser. So addicts hate boundaries, and then they set boundaries, usually to disconnect or isolate. I sponsor a woman whose husband, when he is in addict mode, says, “My boundary is I’m leaving and I’m not coming back until tomorrow.” That’s abandoning your spouse. That is emotionally disconnecting and enables him to practice his addiction. Enforcing the boundaries is the hardest part. I was lucky enough to have the police enforce my boundary that I didn’t even know I had for me. Or the boundary that God created for me. My husband was not choosing to protect me or our family, and it has been destroyed. He filed for divorce on Monday. Of course, that’s not protecting our family either. He’s continuing down the path of destroying our family. And I’m very sad, very, very sad. But that doesn’t mean I will change my boundaries to contact someone. Who is so unsafe that they would destroy my family. So, boundaries right now are essential for me. ## Challenges In Wife’s Recovery Process **From Years-Ago-Anne:** Defining and enforcing boundaries is often one of the more challenging aspects of a wife’s recovery process. However, becoming adept at boundary work is often the defining process for wives. I work with a few women in recovery. I’m the sponsor of three of them, and they’re learning how to set boundaries with their husbands and it’s very difficult. **Anne:** I’m talking about setting boundaries with my husband in the context of 12 step. The wife’s recovery process is interesting to me. It’s defining her as a wife of this guy, rather than helping her view herself as independent. Which was important for me to do in the [Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). To ensure that women know you don’t need to be defined by the fact that you are married to an abuser. A pornography addict, or a sex addict, you are you. So this recovery program, that’s saying a wife’s recovery process. Rather than saying an individual’s recovery process, or the more accurate way to say it would be. An individual’s healing from abuse. ## Setting Boundaries With My Husband: Ongoing Trauma & Healing **From Years-Ago-Anne:** I’ve had a lot of women in the group tell me that when they learned how to set boundaries with their husbands. And they actually set them and kept them until they felt safe. Miracles began to happen. That is light, and light repels darkness. And it has been heart wrenching, and basically felt like the gates of hell were gaping after me. It was very difficult to maintain that my heart is so broken, and I am completely, totally devastated by that. As my boundaries have improved, my sense of self has as well. My trauma is still intense, but I think it will begin to lose its power over time. As I practice recovery behaviors, it doesn’t always feel like it’s working. In fact, I’ve days lately where I’m just walking down the hall, and suddenly, it’s like someone punches me in the stomach. I start just howling, uncontrollably sobbing. And I feel so alone, and I feel so completely abandoned by my husband and his choices. That he chose his addiction and his anger over his family. That he purposefully destroys our family. I feel so much trauma. And I do surrender, I surrender, I keep my boundaries. I still am in this trauma place. And I have faith that if I continue to read my scriptures, pray, attend the temple, which I’m doing. If I continue to reach out, to do connecting behaviors with my sponsor, friends and family, which I’m doing. I will heal eventually. I went to yoga this morning, and I got a little mantra card from my teacher, and it said, “Your healing is already in process.” ## My Life Is Completely Different Now **Anne:** And it was, my healing was already in process. And even though I was not getting the education I needed about abuse at that time. I was starting to learn effective strategies in setting boundaries. That I used throughout the years. My life is completely different now. I feel such peace on a daily basis. But I remember the pain. No matter where you are on your journey. We’re here for you. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast **Tags:** How Do I Set Boundaries --- ### [If Your Husband Has No Empathy - Norine's Story](https://www.btr.org/husband-has-no-empathy/) **Published:** October 24, 2023 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Have you been researching why your husband has no empathy? Before you search anymore, here's what you need to know. **Content:** If you’re like many women in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community, you’ve spent hours scouring the internet, researching why your husband has no empathy for you. Is it mental illness? A history of trauma? Is it physiological? Due to addiction or pornography use? Or is it a choice? Maybe he’s emotionally abusive? To discover if he’s using any one of the 19 types of emotional abuse, take our [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). Nora is on the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast](https://www.btr.org/podcast/ "Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast") with Anne, taking a deep dive into why some men abuse their partners. And refuse to connect in a compassionate, healthy way. ## All The (Wrong) Reasons… Many women in t have tried to find the cause for their partner’s cold, distant, abusive behaviors. That do not include abuse – hopeful that their partner can change or be fixed so that the marriage can stay intact. Therapists, clergy, internet research and others may point them in the direction of: - Mental illness - Addiction - Alcoholism - Anger problems - Pornography use - Personality disorders - Childhood trauma - Stress - Poor examples of marriage/relationships While abusive men may have any combination of these. Abuse is a choice that men make – not a condition that they cannot control. So alcoholism, for example, may *exacerbate* abuse, but it is not the *cause* of abuse. ## Abusing You Is His Choice: Now What? Understanding that he is choosing to abuse you. Despite whatever his “reason” is or a “reason” *his* therapist may give you. Victims may feel trapped, wondering how to proceed. When a disorder, addiction, or other external issue is to blame, victims get distracted from their own emotional safety. Women seeking education regarding an abusive partner may benefit from these resources: - [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/) - [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast](https://www.btr.org/podcast/) ## Transcript: What To Do When Your Husband Has No Empathy **Anne:** I have a member of our community on today’s episode. I’m going to call her Norine. She’s a victim of betrayal and emotional, psychological, and financial abuse. Her ex-husband is a former police officer and serving a sentence in federal prison after a child abuse material conviction. Sometimes people call that child pornography, but we know it’s child abuse material. Her ex-husband staunchly [denied he knew anything about the abuse](https://www.btr.org/when-an-abuser-denies-his-abuse/) material on his computer, and insisted she was responsible for “planting it there.” Welcome. Norine. **Norine:** Thank you so much, glad to be here. ![Why Does He Have No Empathy](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/he-has-no-empathy.webp "He Has No Empathy")**Anne:** As women are trying to figure out what is going on, like is he an addict, does he have a personality disorder? Sometimes [CSAT therapists ](https://www.btr.org/csat-therapist-near-me/ "CSAT therapists ")start start going down that path, so I think many women will be interested in your story. And the ways you have processed this. **Norine:** I’ve thought, you know, personality disorder, narcissism, abuser, and he was abusive. But at the time, I’d only done as much research as I could and loved him for as long as I wanted to fix things. He was involved in a shooting incident at work. As a person in law enforcement, I assumed PTSD, but he said, “No, you’re my problem.” ## Therapy & Misguided Support With Assessment **Norine:** So, my ex got his own therapist, wonderful, through work. He told them, I don’t need support, I need this because my wife is so awful to me. My husband had no empathy. That therapist even called me in to talk to me and didn’t believe me. He dismissed me. He invited me in and then didn’t want to hear from me. I think, again, he was looking for me to be the problem. There’s something wrong with her. He spent our entire marriage thinking any emotion I had was wrong, so I was just whining. And didn’t seem to understand that I had feelings, he had no empathy. He wasn’t capable of compromising often. Context blindness was another aspect, it was the forest for the trees issue, which he couldn’t see. He couldn’t see what I call the connective tissue between decisions we made or things we were arguing about. He cannot take responsibility for his own actions. That’s one of the primary issues. He believes he’s always right, despite plenty of evidence. I was hurt by the time he spent on his computer, even if I wasn’t aware of what he was doing. I was just trying to, it’s what everybody views as a label, but I wanted an answer, a reason. So I started with personality disorder. I said, can you look into this? I want to help him, I want our family back together. This wasn’t to label him and… **Anne:** It was to solve a problem. **Norine:** Right, the assessment I booked it and I paid for it. We drove to the assessment together. I went home with him. ## He Received A Diagnosis **Norine:** And yes, buying into this idea that oh, it’s a disorder. We can address this now, because we know what it is. I hadn’t identified it as abuse, from my point of view at that point. My husband has no empathy. He blames me for everything, what I’m not doing. I didn’t see it as abuse. There was no discussion of that, and I wasn’t surprised for that to be the case. Because law enforcement chose this therapist. And that’s another bullet on my list of people who weren’t safe people to go to, because they exacerbated the problem. **Anne:** The things that you just said on that list are the traits of abusers who do not have a disorder. When he received his diagnosis, how did he think about it? **Norine:** We didn’t talk about it much, so I don’t know fully. But the next day it was, you know, this is not me. You’re just looking for an excuse to deflect and minimize your responsibility for the problem we have. And the situation we’re in now. It was right back to the script he followed for the entire time. That I had done something wrong, and I needed to toe the line and get my behavior back in order. So that we could put our marriage back together again, and that I wouldn’t take responsibility. **Anne:** Yeah. ## Searching For The Cause When Your Husband Has No Empathy **Anne:** This is something that I think is super important for every single listener of this podcast. I say it repeatedly, but I want it to hit home for everyone. It does not matter what the cause is, if it’s abusive to you, it’s abusive. It breaks our hearts, because it could be something that is completely not their fault. Someone could be a super healthy person and get like a head injury, for example. And their head injury alters their personality and causes them to be abusive. In that case, you can, with compassion, look at them. And say, this is such an unfortunate situation that they had this head injury and it caused them to be abusive. But that doesn’t mean the abuse is okay. If you’re harmed, it’s okay to get to safety regardless of the cause. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) That’s really hard, because women think if they can figure out why he’s doing these harmful behaviors to their family. This is a [powerful truth about emotional abuse.](https://www.btr.org/7-powerful-truths-about-emotional-abuse/ "powerful truth about emotional abuse.") If they understand why their husband is not empathetic. They might not use the word abuse, they think. If they can figure out why, then we can solve it. As you tried to get help and explain what had happened to people at the time, you didn’t have the words. And so the thing you were talking about the most was a diagnosis. **Norine:** Yes, and thank you for saying that. Because if there’s one take home, let’s say six years out from the major crisis. Is that I have come to understand it’s abuse. I amplify that message that it’s abuse, and you need to take care of you and your children. ## He Plays The Blame Game & Seeking Answers **Anne:** Many men would not go in for a psych evaluation, or some sort of testing. So what prompted the test to get a diagnosis? **Norine:** It was, of course, my idea. Because I came out of our second couple’s therapist of three where the therapist told him, “Her needs were important to you, and you wanted to honor those.” And his immediate response was, well, no. I thought she was going to leave me, so I had to. It was so devoid of any sort of care for me, or even an awareness that he should be at least putting on a show that he cared. And it just hit me wrong, and that’s where I went down the rabbit hole and hit on the term alexithymia. Which is this difficulty connecting with the feelings of others and identifying them. So I pushed, and he was I think so wholly convinced that I was the problem, that he was willing to do that. Because it would prove that I was the issue, and there was nothing wrong with him. The fall apart stage was after the birth of my second child. When I decided I wanted a third child. And he didn’t want one. It was the same fight as through all those years. But I held my ground with what I wanted for the first time, thinking that surely this time I will convince him. He did agree. And so I got pregnant. So we were on a family vacation, and he was cold and distant. My husband was so cruel had no empathy. Then said, “You blackmailed me into having this child, and I can’t accept it.” And so here I was pregnant with two little guys, and he was ready to move out. ## Discovering The Truth **Norine:** Honestly, I did not learn until two days after I testified at his federal trial that confirmed 100 percent, that he was cheating. But when he left the house, he originally said I was sticking him with the children as much as possible. At every spare moment he had, and he didn’t want them. I said, okay, I’ll keep them. Then suddenly he wanted them. And he was taking my children off to hang out with his mistress. I suspected, but I kept putting it aside because I wanted to believe it wasn’t happening, and we could still fix the marriage. That was months and months before I got really suspicious. He said we didn’t have enough money for a third child, but he spent a lot of money. That’s when I logged into his computer looking for evidence of whatever was going on with him. And that’s when I found quite a bit of exploitative material. And then I thought it was being deleted from the hard drive. So I set it aside, turned it off, disconnected it, and still wanted to work on the marriage. His behavior was then erratic. Through this whole period, he would disappear with my kids. And that’s how he took them someplace, and I thought he was taking them for good. He was just doing various suspicious things. Like putting a trash can in front of my car, in the driveway in front of the garage door. So I would have to get out and move it when I opened the garage door. Or trash the house and say the dogs spread garbage around. So he was starting to get really manipulative in that way. ## When Your Husband Has No Empathy: Forensic Evidence & Legal Battles **Norine:** Ultimately, I said to myself, I have to investigate what’s on this computer. This is where I think it connects with what you talk about here on your podcast. I thought surely the courts will say, well, this man has tens of thousands of images on his computer, that he’s downloading all the time. He can’t be an effective parent, and I would get custody and the kids would be safe. So I sent the computer off for forensics, still not letting myself believe any more than moments at a time. And it came back with CSAM on it, [my husband got caught using CSAM.](https://www.btr.org/feeling-trapped-in-a-relationship/) **Anne:** So CSAM is the term Child Abuse Material, So how did your experiences with DV and counseling professionals, law enforcement, the courts exacerbate your trauma? **Norine:** In so many ways. Whenever I think of this now that I’ve been listening to your podcast, I think of one episode you did and I’ve listened to them out of sequence. So I don’t know how long ago it was, but it was when you were so raw, honest, and vulnerable. About having been in court and having gotten nothing of what you wanted and needed for you and your kids in terms of custody. That feeling came right to the surface for me. Again, I don’t think I cried so hard as I have in family courts. Because people have not recognized this idea of describing these experiences, and not believed by friends, family, and professionals. And I faced it over and over again. ## Emotional Turmoil In Family Courts **Norine:** When he was arrested, the people in his department went to the FBI agent, and they said, oh, you know, of course she set him up, right? He didn’t do this. And the FBI agent said, go read the filing documents. And then I think some of them believed, but they weren’t a resource for me. I even have one domestic violence counselor, because I’ve been to several of the centers in my various towns, and one said, oh, well it’s very nuanced. Because I went to them at one point thinking, am I the abuser? Is this all my fault? Did I do something wrong? Oh, it can be very nuanced. Because she didn’t hear anything I said that made her say, oh, yes, he’s abusive. So there I was already in this fog of self doubt, and that set me back. The courts just don’t have space to listen to any of the categories you discuss in your podcast. They’re so focused on, this must be two parties who contribute equally to a problematic dynamic. And they’re both acting childish or irresponsibly. We’re just going to shut this down. Because the best thing for children, except for extreme circumstances that we can’t identify here. Is their access to both parents. Autism doesn’t make people abusive. It also doesn’t make people bad parents. It has to be about the behaviors and traits, and I’m not sure I ever got that bulleted list together for myself. Of what is going on here that makes him unsafe, because it was so nebulous. That’s the reason why I’m not believed. ## A Husband with No Empathy Neglects the Children **Norine:** If I say, he called me up and had custody of the kids, and he hadn’t fed them dinner at 8 o’clock. My husband has no empathy for the kids either. They were all under the age of 7. People were like, well, that’s not child abuse to not feed them until 8 o’clock at night. I just kind of felt stuck at the how do I demonstrate that this is problematic behavior regardless of its label. And then I got the deus ex machina situation, well, he’s been lifted out of here. He’s clearly unsafe because he’s looking at CSAM, but I have colleagues whose partners don’t do that, and they’re just as unsafe in other ways. **Anne:** Yeah, a lot of people said, oh, your ex got arrested for abuse. I have a guilty verdict with a 14 month probation and a protective order. And the courts didn’t see that as dangerous around children either. It’s so interesting when you try to define these sort of psychological and emotional abusive things, they’re like, well, he just isn’t into trombone, when I say he will not support my son in his trombone. Things that when you’re in it, you know, how abusive it is. But from the outside, they just think, oh, people parent differently. There are different styles. So it’s also interesting that there’s no abuse diagnosis. There’s no space for that. Even though the courts say there is. It’s crazy making for those of us who have tried to get our kids to safety. ## Courts Don’t Understand Emotional & Psychological Abuse **Norine:** You know, I read the entire transcript three years out. I testified, and then I promptly left the courtroom, never to return because I didn’t want to hear it. But I felt ready to read it and understand what I’m up against when he’s released. At a sentencing hearing, the federal court judge who sat there and heard all his testimony and all the lies he told. That’s all explicitly on record. You perjured yourself, you blamed your ex wife, you are at fault and you will not admit it. During his house arrest period, he was not to go near me or the children. In the next breath, he said, I released this hold. You can have unsupervised visitation with your children if the family courts allow it. **Anne:** And the family courts don’t understand emotional and psychological abuse. They don’t understand these issues of coercion, safety, unless they’re in prison or there’s some kind of severe bruise. **Norine:** Right, it wasn’t enough that the content he was watching, I will not get graphic, but incest was a theme. So how would you say my children are safe? **Anne:** I had a guardian ad litem look over it when I was saying he was unsafe. And say, I don’t understand why she’s saying her ex is unsafe. He seems safe to me. **Norine:** He looked at me two weeks before I gave birth to our third child and said, I want nothing to do with this baby. And I told a guardian ad litem. She said, well, he wants to be a parent now, so we need to let him. ## Struggles With Friends & Family **Anne:** Let’s talk about friends and family, apart from counseling professionals in the court. How did they see this? Did they believe and support you? Or realize your husband has no empathy? **Norine:** On the side of my friends, you know this, and listeners probably know this. That you learn who your true friends are. You learn who your tough friends are, because it’s not easy to process. For the people who can hang with you and listen to it, they’re your people. My friends group, I have some of my longstanding friends. But a lot of my tribe now are newer people who came in when I was in the midst of the story. Or post the story and were okay with me telling and retelling it. And visiting it as I need to. My family not as much. My ex’s family, I suspect they knew about the behavior. Because it didn’t start during my marriage. It started in his tween or teen years, and I think they’ve been covering for him. They’re a family with some social status and money. They’ve funded all his lawsuits in the family court, all his federal trial, an appeal, and whatever legal steps he’s taking right now. They supported him, and in fact his parents, petitioned me for visitation of the kids. They were already taking steps before he was even arrested. So to me that said, they knew I had his computer. And it was only a matter of time before I figured out what was on it and before something happened. So they pursued visitation rights, got them. And the opening questions when I was cross examined at his federal trial were about how I was keeping the grandchildren from their grandparents. ## My Husband Has No Empathy: Ongoing Accusations & Letters **Norine:** Because the whole narrative for him was that I was a vindictive spouse who just wanted the kids and money and to make his life miserable. **Anne:** So this was at the federal trial for his child abuse material case. They brought up that you were withholding the kids from the grandparents because you were vindictive, to blame you. Is he still doing the, you set him up? **Norine:** Yes. I mean, he hasn’t actually said those words. He sends bimonthly letters to my children and still says, I’m pursuing this aspect of my case again. It’s going back to the courts and they’re looking at it, and they passed the first step, which is important because it shows that I’m telling the truth. The way I read it, it’s plausible deniability. Well, you can’t prove beyond a doubt that it was me, because it could have been her because she knew this password. Or he’d make up lies just to make it seem as if I could be responsible. He keeps insisting they have not proven that I did not know it was there, that I didn’t put it there. That’s because I had a shared computer and we shared passwords, It could be me. So he’s not let go of that no. It puts my children in this position. We can talk about my children. It’s, you know, I’m laughing now, now I’m in this laughable space. But my kids are in this, and this is not funny, unfortunately. Because he blames me, and it’s on public record. As is his infidelity. He’s putting my kids in the position of having to believe one or the other of us, because it’s either or. **Anne:** Ugh, it’s a nightmare. It’s a nightmare. ## He’s Currently In Prison & Future Concerns **Anne:** So he’s currently in prison. How long will he be in prison? **Norine:** Another two and a half years, roughly. A little bit more than that. **Anne:** And I imagine that for the moment you’re like, okay, we have a little break. But you have anxiety and worry about him getting out. **Norine:** Exactly. And I thank you for validating that. And I think that’s where the friends network breaks down a little bit. Why do you keep worrying about this? Why don’t you just live your life? Worry about that later, you can’t predict the future, so many things. And I don’t live in that moment every single day of my life. But I have to be prepared for it, because there’s no doubt. This is his entire life right now, standing by that he’s innocent and planning to come out and be super dad. **Anne:** Oh, it is. It is really, really rough. So in addition to your justifiable concern and worry about when this horrible non empathetic man he gets out of prison. How has his behavior affected your children in other ways? **Norine:** He sends letters. Every other week, the court ordered he’d be allowed to do that. But his letters are so out of a fantasy world that it’s confusing for them. He talks about going to the beach and how he has neighbors. And he had this special meal for dinner and all these wonderful things happening. It’s a sanitized version of reality that’s confusing for them. Because they say, doesn’t he know that we know where he is? It’s threatening to pull them into his way of being. That’s not healthy. So we have to work against that when we’re living as a family or working with their support system. ## Moving Forward & Keeping Privacy **Norine:** And then unfortunately, it’s perhaps forever unknown whether he actually harmed them in any way. They were fairly young, and I’ve had dealings with child protective services who have investigated this. So my kids have been put through that too. A positive is that we’ve moved a couple of times since this all happened. So we no longer live in the town where this took place, and they were young enough that their friends weren’t talking about it at great length. There’s a chance they can keep it private in their school and friend circles if they so choose. So that’s a positive. **Anne:** Oh, it’s really sad and disheartening to realize that the justice system is more about the rights of perpetrators than protecting victims. Making sure the victims are safe is not high on the priority list. So I’m so sorry you got that sort of hanging out there in space. When was your divorce final? **Norine:** It took a while. I filed and then worked on the marriage for another year, and it finally was finalized. I don’t know what compelled him to sign the paperwork, because part of his profile is also to be demand avoidant. And I don’t know if he wanted to look good for the courts. But he finally let me go. So it’s completely done. It took so long, in part because my attorney advised to wait until we found out the outcome of his trial. Before we moved to finalize things. ## Men who have No empathy is a red flag: Experiences Of Dating After Abuse **Anne:** So since you’ve been divorced and dating again, can you talk about how your experience with abuse and betrayal, and also the nightmare of the court system. How have your experiences affected your dating life? **Norine:** Yeah, I’m vigilant. As, as one would be, and probably many of your listeners are, if they’ve stepped into this realm. I’d look for signs. The signs of abuse pop out. I’ve come to be an expert at reading a dating app profile for red flags. But even so, I would say I’ve ended up in personality disorder relationships. So I stepped back when I found myself in those situations and took a break, because I had to be honest with myself. And say, I didn’t have a baseline for what a normal relationship was like because we started our relationship in college. So I entered the dating realm for the first time as a true adult. I remember having this moment at the time. I was given estimates of what content was on his computer, and they’re saying 50 to 100 thousand images. And I looked at my therapist, who was a man, and I said, is that a lot? Because it was so normalized, men look at this stuff. Every man looks at it. So it was just what men do. So that another man was shocked by what he was doing, that my husband had no empathy, was a wake up call for me. And I had to be mindful of that. I had to learn where to set my boundaries. Based on what my expectations could be. And to learn that I could set my expectations as high as I wanted. And I did. My ex husband has no empathy, and I don’t want to repeat that. ## Finding Hope In Healthy Relationships **Norine:** And I am actually in a wonderful relationship right now. So I listen to these stories all the time of women who aren’t ready. And I celebrate them that they know they’re not ready. And I listened to women who are hurt again, and I hurt for them because I’ve hurt too. Anybody who wants to be in a relationship again, I want that for them because I believe it’s possible. **Anne:** Yeah, when I was with my ex and I was in this addiction recovery world, and helping him with his addiction, I genuinely felt like. All men are addicts. Now that I’m out of that and have been introduced, and I interact with many healthy men, I have more hope than ever. Personally, I don’t want to be in a relationship, but simultaneously, I agree that it is possible. I don’t want abuse to ruin what they want and care about. So many abusers ruin their victim’s faith, for example. They want a faith in God, or a faith in anything or something. That gets ruined for them, or a belief that they could have a healthy relationship. **Norine:** Yeah, I think many of us end up in these relationships because we’re kind, caring, flexible people. That want to be invested. There are plenty of other ways to invest all your kindness and love. Youand you can put it into things like podcasting, children, so many things. Yeah, but if that’s what people want, it’s absolutely doable. **Anne:** Yeah, I’ve met quite a few advocates who are now married to healthy men after an abusive relationship. And one of the things they tell me, and I don’t know if you would agree, is it’s so easy. So different than when your husband has no empathy. ## Marriage With A Healthy Husband Is Not Difficult **Anne:** Like you don’t even know how easy it can be. That also makes me happy, because that whole marriage is work. And it has to be, I’m not saying marriage isn’t work, is sort of a way to manipulate women into thinking that a marriage has to be hard and really difficult. And rationalize when your husband has no empathy. When with a healthy person, it maybe doesn’t need to be that difficult. How do you feel about that? **Norine:** Oh my goodness, that speaks to my experience so well. My partner and I joke about this. We will mock language of what the conflict might be. I bought a deck of relationship questions for Christmas, and we snicker our way through it. Because we’ve already discussed three quarters of the content on these cards. I think it’s meant to prompt like deep conversation. We already did it on our own. And anything that delves into areas of conflict, we snicker because we don’t feel like we’re ever going to be in that position. Because we’re so open. Communication, which was the biggest challenge in my marriage, is so simple. Not like when your husband has no empathy. I think, you know, arguing could be healthy in a relationship. I believe that, but we don’t get to that point because the communication is so good. It’s just discovering something that we all deserve, and it’s so exciting. **Anne:** It is exciting, yeah. That’s good news. And I’m so happy that you found that. That’s awesome. ## Tools For Safety & Communication: Living Free Strategies **Anne:** In terms of abuse in general, but also specifically with your abuser who is in prison right now. There maybe flying monkeys or others who don’t understand our situation. When our husband has no empathy or natural care for us, what tools and strategies do you use to keep yourself safe? **Norine:** My favorite genuine tool, you’ve mentioned on your podcast and used it. I use the *Our Family Wizard* app to communicate with my abusive ex in-laws. That allows you to document and timestamp all communication. It’s all in one place. You access it when you want and need to, and feel safe doing so. There can never be any misunderstanding about whether a message was received, and what it said, because it’s all documented. **Anne:** Yeah, the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/ "Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop") builds the foundation for safe strategies, thoughts, boundaries and communication strategies and also teaches women how to use *Our Family Wizard* to their advantage. There are several key reasons to use *Our Family Wizard*. One of them is that you only have one point of entry. Where the abusive person can contact you. Because they can’t contact you on your phone or in an email. And you have everything written down and it’s all in one place, like you said. It’s awesome. So if you haven’t checked out the [the Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/), check it out. **Norine:** Absolutely, yeah, so helpful. ## Ex Husband Has No Empathy, Dealing With Manipulative Communication **Norine:** Another thing related to communication, and I hope your listeners will understand this. This is certainly something that I struggled with a lot. I believe my ex dog whistles. So the idea that only dogs hear a certain frequency of a dog whistle, my ex will say things in letters to my children. That are designed, I believe, to get a reaction from me that no one else would see as problematic. Still, my ex husband has no empathy for me or the kids. And of course, that works beautifully in the courtroom too. I would have panic attacks every time one of the letters hit the mailbox. Because I felt I had to read them, because I’m the line of defense between my children and whatever content is in this letter. But I have friends, they’re fabulous in terms of the gallows humor. I send them a copy of the letter, and we read it together. They help me remove myself from getting hooked into that feeling of being controlled by that message. And just finding the humor in the moment. It’s a small thing, but you know, it hits my mailbox every other week. So I’m constantly dealing with them, even though I’ve exited the relationship. I still have to engage in this way, so I make sure it’s done in a way that supports me. **Anne:** It is so sad to me that the justice system does not recognize that an abuser can still abuse their victim from prison. **Norine:** Yes, yes. **Anne:** The fact that he’s allowed, and not only allowed, but also the court protects his letters to your kids. Like you said, I’ve exited the relationship, but I am still forced to interact with him and he’s in prison. ## Challenges With In-Laws Creating Chaos **Anne:** If it was a stranger who had, let’s say, raped you once on the street. And then let’s say he got 15 years prison for that. If you said he writes me a letter every other week, they would be like whoa, whoa, whoa. You should not be reading those letters. He should not be sending these to you. **Norine:** Exactly, I mean, he’s shored up this line of attack too. Because that’s another reason why I believe my ex-in-laws are in this picture. They have weekly phone calls with my children, and they engage in the same behavior. They have the right to send gifts, so they create their own chaos. I won’t necessarily go into that, but yeah, we all know as the abuse victims that these are tactics they use. But they fly right under the radar. You know, I’ve also thought about this, with respect to the in-laws having access. I thought the same thing as you just said. If my ex husband and I were together and on the same page and decided our parents or in-laws were toxic. We could say, no thank you. You cannot spend time with my children. But because he and I do not see eye to eye, my in-laws get to step in and create whatever scenario they want. I feel like if I had a dog, I would have more say about what choices I make about my pet than about my children and their safety. The only hope is for our children to age out of the process. And they’re trusted to make their own good choices about their future and relationships with their parents. ## Dealing With Public Exposure & Its Effects **Anne:** One aspect of your story is that some of it was publicized in the news. How do you think having it in the news, even if you didn’t know people. Just knowing that it was out there, how did that affect you? And how has that had an ongoing effect on you? **Norine:** There’s nothing like your partner cheating on you and then having everybody know. I’m grateful that I didn’t find that out until I had processed the possibility, and I was beyond wanting to be with him. Because my ex husband has no empathy and he is trying to actively harm us. But it’s hard to think about my children reading it, and my almost 12 year old right on developmental target has been Google searching. So we’ve been talking a lot about it. I had news reporters in my driveway. There was social media chatter. It’s hard to stomach. I created a healthy distance from it. But it’s so interesting to watch the people who said she shouldn’t have said anything, and she’s ruined her kids’ lives. And why didn’t she say something earlier? Which I couldn’t because I didn’t know. But it was misreported. I think that’s a hard thing, but an interesting thing because. We’re all consumers of the news, and we read a story and pass judgment. Or don’t, I guess, but based on our life experience and what we read. And how discriminating we are in the kind of news we consume. But when you have that experience of mistruths, it shows how often the news gets it wrong. Especially because they can’t comprehend that some of these husbands have no empathy. ## Believing Victims & Seeking Justice When An Ex Husband Has No Empathy **Norine:** So I try to process everything I hear now, even more deliberately. But going forward, part of me wants to speak out, continue speaking out, and put the story out there. I also want to be shut down by my ex, because he certainly doesn’t think I’m speaking the truth. So I have these mixed feelings about what it means to have it be public. I want to make good use of it, but it might work against me in some ways. **Anne:** I wonder when he does get out, the climate has maybe shifted a little bit in terms of the media, thank goodness. People seem to believe victims more than they have historically. **Norine:** I thought it was super interesting that the jury convicted him. And I worked with victim witness specialists in the courts. They said, yeah, when the jury heard him, he’s unfaithful, and the way he was treating you. Your testimony was credible. He was not winning over many people. And they said, particularly the mothers on the jury, they saw you just trying to protect your children. So I don’t know if the climate makes a difference, because ultimately it comes down to who’s on the jury or who’s on the judge’s bench. I think that has a lot more to do with it. **Anne:** Yeah, it’s too bad that in our divorces, we don’t have a jury of moms. **Norine:** That’d be fabulous. **Anne:** That would be awesome. ## Messages Of Support & Community **Norine:** I just want to reiterate the kind of message you share on the podcast all the time. Get to safety, you’re not crazy. Something we say in group a lot. I believe you, this is happening, trust your instinct. All those things we say them over and over again. They’re powerful, say them to yourself and trust yourself. That’s ultimately how you can get to safety. So, don’t discount you. **Anne:** You are amazing, and all of our listeners are amazing. It is a big warning sign if your husband has no empathy. You have been through the most horrific, nightmarish experiences, all of us have, so many women are in that super, traumatic time. And the wonderful thing is that as a community, we support each other. We help each other, and give each other spiritual hugs or hugs from across Apple podcasts. Knowing that there is a whole community of women who completely and totally understand. We are all different and look different. We all sound different and made different choices. But the things we have experienced, the patterns of lying and gaslighting, deceit and blame, all of that is so similar. I’m so grateful to not be in this alone. And also grateful that as a community, we are becoming more and more healthy. We can teach our children and hopefully one home at a time. We’re making this world a better place. **Norine:** Absolutely, thank you so much for having me. And for all that you do. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast, Related Posts --- ### [Can In-Home Separation Help Me? - Lindsay's Story](https://www.btr.org/in-home-separation/) **Published:** October 25, 2022 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Women looking for emotional safety you may choose an in-home separation. Listen to Lindsay’s experience. **Content:** Lindsay, a member of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community shares her experience doing an in-home separation, Lindsey offers valuable insight to empower listeners. If you need support, learn about [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. ](https://www.btr.org/group/ "Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. ") ![is an in Home Separation a Good Solution for an Emotionally Abusive Relationship](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Is-An-In-Home-Separation-Helpful-in-Emotionally-Abusive-Marriage.png "is an in Home Separation Helpful in Emotionally Abusive Marriage")## **Why Choose In-Home Separation?** Sometimes women want to separate themselves from their abusive husband’s behaviors, but for one reason or another can’t physically move to another space. In-home separations offer temporary safety (if your husband respects the separation agreement), while not causing financial strain on the family. Further, in-home separations can preserve the current family dynamic if children are struggling to adapt to a more intense separation. An in-home separation is rarely a situation that a couple can/wants to maintain long-term. Eventually, the abusive husband will choose to change and become non-abusive and honest, or will simply continue on the destructive path of betrayal and abuse. When your in-home separation isn’t providing you with the safety that you deserve, it may be time to ask your husband to move out, for you to move out, and/or consider filing for divorce. It’s important for victims to understand that abusive men hitting benchmarks (going to therapy, attending support groups, etc.) does NOT mean that they are changing. As women become empowered, they are better able to understand what real change looks like. ![Try in Home Separation](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Try-In-Home-Separation.webp "Try in Home Separation")## Transcript: **Can In-Home Separation Help Me?** **Anne:** I have my friend with me today, Lindsey, not her real name. She’s actually here in my basement where I record. I was talking to a woman at a conference and she said, I wasn’t meant to live one day at a time. And I thought that’s so true. Like I want to be able to plan. I want to be able to have peace. I want to be able to have [emotional safety](/emotional-safety-examples/). There are obviously painful things that happen. No matter how hard we try, we can’t avoid them. ## **The Concept of Betrayal Trauma** **Lindsay:** Because whether it’s betrayal trauma or whether it’s a child dying, whatever your trial is, that is way too hard. It’s not fair. **Anne:** Yeah. What about your situation left you feeling hopeless **Lindsay**: When I discovered that there’s this thing called betrayal trauma. On top of that, not just [betrayal trauma, but also there is secondary trauma](https://www.btr.org/books/) and it’s real. You can have secondary trauma from ecclesiastical leaders, from therapists, therapists out there, resources out there that claim we help with betrayal trauma and yet they don’t. ![is In home Separation the Solution to Saving My Marriage](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Will-An-In-Home-Separation-Save-My-Marriage.png "Will an in Home Separation Save My Marriage")**Lindsay:** It’s real and yet I have nowhere to turn because I don’t know who is safe. **Anne:** That’s why I created [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/). ## **Trusting Your Gut & Finding Safety** **Anne:** Since then, have you developed a system where you can feel like, [when you can’t trust your husband](https://www.btr.org/about/ "when you can't trust your husband"). This is how I would know if someone’s safe or not? **Lindsay:** Mainly trusting my gut. I mean, learning to trust myself and to trust God. When I feel safe, I feel peace. And if there’s something that isn’t safe or that feels off, it’s almost like a little flag goes off in my brain that says, wait, this is either totally unsafe or I just need to learn more. Ask some more questions and figure out what’s going on. Because sometimes people say things in a way that is unsafe, but they didn’t intend to say it that way. ![Can In home Separation Help My Troubled Marriage](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Can-In-Home-Separation-Help-My-Marriage.png "Can In home Separation Help My Marriage")**Anne:** Like me! I did all the time. In fact, right when Lindsay got here, she was like, look at this new pamphlet! And I was like, ah! They took the word abuse off! And I went on a, what, how long was it? Maybe four minute rant about how mad I was that they removed the word abuse. And then I was like, I gotta calm down. I said a prayer, and I’m feeling fine now. And do you feel safe now? **Lindsay:** Absolutely. **Anne:** But I bet while I was on the rant, you were like, Oh, this can’t be good. Right? You were kind of like, Oh, no, we can’t record with her like this. And I was recognizing it. ## **Triggers & Emotional Reactions** **Anne:** It’s funny, it’s funny when I get triggered. I don’t know if you think it’s funny when you get triggered. When I get triggered, I think it’s funny because I can see it. I’m like oh, I know I’m doing this and I have to make that mental shift to say what would be the most helpful thing to do right now? So I apologize that I went on my rant. **Lindsay:** It’s been helpful for me to reevaluate my perspective on life. It’s really a hard process to do, that is to say, I am questioning everything. Thinking about what I understand about my world, my higher power, relationships with my family and with my friends. Yet that process of questioning has been, in a lot of ways, very healing for me. I can feel the growth that I’ve had over the last two years. ![What Does In home Separation Look Like when There is Emotional Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-Does-An-In-Home-Separation-Work.png "How Does an In home Separation Work")**Anne:** Yeah, that’s what I experienced too. And I loved that. Looking back, I didn’t so much like it when I was going through it. **Lindsay:** Absolutely not. It’s so hard. **Anne:** It was miserable. ## **Growth Through Hardship** **Anne:** But looking back, I’m like, wow, I have changed and I have grown so much, and I’m still growing. **Lindsay:** Absolutely. **Anne:** It’s almost like the growth happens in this other place, and then you look back. You’re like, whoa, I changed. How did that happen? **Lindsay:** It happens in a way that I didn’t expect. I don’t see it coming and and then it happens and it’s this beautiful amazing thing. Yeah, it’s pretty cool. One thing that I love about this process is you talk about sweeping my side of the street. It’s totally not about that because that can be a really dangerous metaphor to use. If you take that out and you just say this isn’t about my side of the street it’s taking the situation that is already happening. ![What Will My In home Separation Look Like Lindsey's story](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-Does-In-Home-Separation-Look-Like-Lindseys-story.png "What Does In home Separation Look Like Lindseys Story")About awful, terrible, ugly, hard, painful and saying, I can either sit here and live in the unmanageable. Live in it, and that’s okay to do, or I can take it and give it purpose. I can take my suffering and give it something meaningful. ## **Pain With Purpose** **Lindsay:** Pain with purpose is much more tolerable than pain that’s totally meaningless. Viktor Frankl’s book, Man’s Search for Meaning, it’s this idea that if I don’t have any reason, this pain is just happening, and it’s just going to keep happening, and there’s no reason for it, and I can’t do anything about it. I mean, I’ll go crazy. I will. And I may still go crazy. **Anne:** You’re not crazy yet. **Lindsay:** But to have purpose to it, and for me to say, no this is not my fault. It’s not fair and I can’t control it, but with God, I can make something beautiful out of it. **Anne:** For me, it was definitely [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/). **Lindsay:** Absolutely. **Anne:** Because everything that I have now, my children, my house, BTR that I founded is because of what I went through. ![Can In Home Separation Help Me?](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZcCaYcaS5eA/sddefault.jpg) I would not have anything else. It’s everything that I love and care about and hold dear to my heart now. I’m super grateful that I went through it because there’s no way I could do what I do without it. People who haven’t been through it have a hard time wrapping their head around the realities of what happens. I also think it’s super cool how for all of us who have been through this, to be able to understand each other and empathize with each other, but also disagree. **Lindsay:** Absolutely. **Anne:** And have different experiences. That certain things are helpful for some people that aren’t helpful for others. And leave a space open for that. **Anne:** Knowing that emotional health looks pretty much the same. Honesty, accountability, kindness, you know, all that stuff looks the same, but we can get to it from many different ways. ## **In-Home Separation Experience** **Anne:** So on the topic of in-home separation, which some women may use to establish safety. Lindsay has done both an in-home separation and now is separated out of her home. Can you tell us why you felt unsafe in your own home? **Lindsay:** So when he went through two months of acting out behavior without disclosing it to me, that’s when I felt unsafe and knew I needed to change something. **Anne:** Did you feel unsafe before you found out he was lying to you, or was there something in your gut that you knew was wrong and you just didn’t have quote unquote evidence until you found out? [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) **Lindsay:** I definitely felt uneasy, that’s for sure, and I knew that he wasn’t communicating with me, but until I really had the direct evidence, I didn’t want to move forward yet. And it was only a matter of months. **Anne:** So once you determined that you felt unsafe and that your husband’s behaviors were unsafe, mainly that he had been lying to you, why did you choose an in-home separation for your boundary at that time? **Lindsay:** At that time, I knew I felt unsafe and I knew that something needed to change. It was actually Almost a month between me knowing that there was dishonesty happening and me actually coming to the conclusion that an in-home separation was the boundary that I wanted to move forward with, mostly because I just didn’t know what to do. ## **How Can An In-Home Separation Help In Situations Of Abuse** **Lindsay:** I was, you know, Totally at a loss, but I had some really [amazing experiences with meditation that helped me come to the conclusion that I really needed to have safety within my home](https://www.btr.org/husband-is-holding-me-back/ "amazing experiences with meditation that helped me come to the conclusion that I really needed to have safety within my home"), and I needed to have a place in my home that could be my safe place. For me, the easiest way that I could envision that happening would be to have an in-home separation where I could have my bedroom be that safe place. **Anne:** I’m going to talk about safety for a minute. A lot of women listening might think, okay, he was lying to you and so you felt unsafe. Were there any other evidences that you felt unsafe. Which there doesn’t need to be, but I want to talk about this because a lot of women think, well, he’s not yelling at me. He’s not punching walls. He’s not screaming in my face. So, yeah, I’m safe. When emotionally they might not be safe because they’re trusting someone or they’re interacting with someone who’s lying to their face. Talk about how you came to realize that you deserved more than just, well, he’s not yelling at me. ## **In-Home Separation Is A Boundary** **Lindsay:** My husband is in a lot of respects, a good husband and a good father to my children. You know, he’s respectful. He helps around the house, does all the right things on the surface. He doesn’t put me down. Obviously, the lying is abuse in and of itself. But for me, it was just these little red flags. Each one of those in and of itself isn’t totally wrong. But when you look at the big picture and you look at red flags like not communicating. He’s not telling me what he’s thinking. **Anne:** So at the time when you’re telling your family, I don’t feel safe. I’m going to have an in-home separation. Were they like, why don’t you feel safe? I’m confused. What is he doing? **Lindsay:** Yeah, absolutely. And honestly, even to this day, it’s something that I’m not sure I have words to capture exactly what it means. Which is hard because in a certain sense, you want to feel justified when you’re talking to your family or when you’re talking to your friends about the actions that you’re taking. And so that’s been a struggle. It’s kind of a back and forth and just a continuing conversation with my parents, with my siblings, with other people who are aware of what’s going on. Just trying to share with them how I’m feeling. When I do come across podcasts or if I come across a quote that I feel captures what I’m feeling, I’m more inclined to share that with them to help communicate, but it’s hard. ## **In-Home Separation Allows Time For Observation** **Anne:** Do you feel like you’re better at communicating how you feel now than when you first started the in-home separation? **Lindsay:** Yes and no. In some ways, obviously, I’ve definitely grown and read more, listened to more. But in other ways, no. It’s still something that’s hard to describe to somebody who hasn’t experienced it themselves. For me, one of my personal boundaries for myself has been to say, it’s okay for me to not be able to describe what I’m feeling to somebody. That’s okay. It doesn’t mean that my feelings are unjustified. **Anne:** Both that and then also, it’s okay that I can’t explain all my reasons why I feel unsafe. But my decision to set a boundary I don’t have to justify it to other people. It’s okay. It’s just a tough position to be in. **Lindsay:** Yeah **Anne:** So you were doing an in-home separation for how long? **Lindsay:** About a year. **Anne:** Okay. And during that time, all you could see is he doesn’t seem to be interested in meetings or therapy, and that was your indicator that you were probably unsafe? Because you’ve got somebody with a history of lying to you and someone with a history of infidelity. **Lindsay: E**xactly. ## **Indicators Of Abusive Behavior** **Anne:** Okay. I’m thinking right now that those of us who can clearly see through their behavior, right, they’re very irritable, are kind of lucky, maybe? I mean, not, but yes. Behavior can be more extreme. But the weird thing is, it doesn’t mean you’re in any less danger from being lied to. **Anne:** And the spectrum of these abusive behaviors is so vast. It can look so different. Okay. So, you’re doing an in-home separation for about a year. You’re living upstairs and he’s living in the basement. I am personal friends with you, in the same area. So I know you’ve been making an effort to have friends come over in the evening when you’re lonely, and you’ve just been learning new skills on how to navigate a life where you’ve been separated in your home. Then you find out he’s been lying again, he’s been using exploitative material again. We’re already doing an in-home separation, so now what do I do? Talk about how you felt in the process that you went through to determine what steps to take next. ## **Red Flags During In-Home Separation** **Lindsay:** I actually need to back up a little bit, because that process started a little bit before I knew that he was lying to me. I had some other pretty bad experiences. Big indicators that something was really wrong. **Anne:** Can you tell us what those were? **Lindsay:** I had a conversation with him shortly after one of his therapy appointments. He was on his way out the door, so it was not a good time to be talking, but I had just asked him about how his therapy went. He was sharing with me about being in a slump and had shared that with the therapist. The therapist was working with him on determining his motivation for recovery, trying to do pros and cons of working recovery. Then he shared a question that the therapist had asked him, how long do you think this is sustainable to stay in this slump? He told me that his answer to the therapist had been something like, Well that depends on my wife. **Anne:** That depends on Lindsay. **Lindsay:** Yeah. And I was like, oh, that’s not okay with me. I don’t know if I could put words at the time to why that wasn’t okay with me, but that did not feel right. I want his recovery to be his own. for him to be motivated to do it for his own well being. Not to work recovery as long as I’m not making his life unbearable or harder. **Anne:** Yeah, so it’s like well if she doesn’t bug me anymore then now then maybe forever. It just depends on Lindsay. ## **Considering Moving From In-Home Separation to Out-Of-Home Separation** **Lindsay:** It came across really as a big, big red flag for me. At that point, that was actually the first time that I had ever considered the reality or the possible reality of an out of home separation. And that scared me. It terrified me. So the thought had been planted a couple weeks before. **Anne:** Before we go on, can you put in words why, if all other behaviors seem healthy, why lying and exploitative materials use to you is unacceptable? **Lindsay:** Yeah, absolutely. The lying. It just is a really not okay foundation for any relationship, because if he’s lying about this, who knows what else he could be lying about. Yes, on the surface, the things that I see and experience seem to be okay, but who knows? **Anne:** It would be interesting to see if someone else were in your situation. **Lindsay:** Right? It would be so different. **Anne:** If she was like, well, no, these things are really bad. These other things that maybe for whatever reason, you’re not recognizing or whatever. That would be interesting to know. **Lindsay:** Yeah. Oh, I’m sure it would be very different. **Anne:** Or if she was like, I agree. Who knows? ## Pornography Is Not OK **Anne:** Gail Dines was on the podcast. If you have not heard [that episode,](https://www.btr.org/what-is-exploitative/ "that episode,") please listen to it. She’s amazing. She was saying, Women, even if nothing else is going on, you cannot accept this in a relationship, period. It is an abusive act and is not okay. This is [what is exploitative ](https://www.btr.org/what-is-exploitative/ "what is exploitative ")about the whole industry. I’m proud of you for saying, even though I don’t exactly know how these behaviors are affecting me, I know that it is and I will not accept it. That is a really brave thing to do. **Lindsay:** For me personally, exploitative material is something that goes against my values, my spiritual belief system. That has been very clear from the start. This is not okay. But I didn’t know that anything could be done about it. I was told by clergy what felt to me like contradictory statements. Like, recovery is possible, sobriety is possible, and yet addiction is going to be a lifelong thing. I didn’t get how those two things that felt to me like opposites could both be true. **Anne:** It’s possible for him to change, but if he doesn’t, it’s actually possible for you, the victim, to find peace and happiness. It takes a long time to figure out what that looks like and how that’s going to go. They also get all caught up in [the causes of sexual addiction.](https://www.btr.org/sex-addiction-therapist-near-me/ "the causes of sexual addiction.") ## **Exploring Boundaries & In-Home Separation** **Anne:** Because these are unacceptable to you, then you start this process of determining what is my next step for safety. I’ve already done an in-home separation, and it seemed to work. It kept me safe for a little while, but it didn’t motivate him to change, which wasn’t your point. Your point was just to keep yourself safe. Now you’re realizing, I’m not any safer. How do you decide that you need to increase your boundaries yet again? Because you’re still unsafe. **Lindsay:** Yeah, that was a long thought process for me, because realistically, the boundary of an in-home separation has a wide range of levels of connection, even within that. I thought about it, and I realized I had pretty much explored that range at least as far as I knew how. We had a period of time fairly early on in the in-home separation where things were awful he was acting out every week and telling me about it. **Anne:** When you say acting out you mean using exploitative material? **Lindsay:** Yeah, so that was happening on a weekly basis. It felt to me like it was endless. That was really hard for me. ## **Low Contact During Separation** **Lindsay:** At that point in time, our in-home separation was very low contact. Like, I would very much schedule the times when I would be seeing him. It would be family dinner with the kids. Outside of that and maybe a few other things, I was pretty much saying, okay, text me if you’re going to walk through the upstairs. So I know that you’re walking through the upstairs. Things like that where I would very much know where he was and where I was and that those were separate places. Versus when things were a lot better. We did spend time together, he still slept in the basement and I still slept upstairs. I still maintained my bedroom as my safe space. So he wasn’t going in my room. If I was in the room at all, ever. I had felt like I had explored that range. ## **Out of Options & Making Decisions** **Lindsay:** I felt like I was out of options. That’s a hard place to be because I don’t like making decisions from a place where I feel like there’s no other options. That was a place where I had to sit for a while to think about, okay, have I really explored all my options? **Anne:** I think that’s really interesting because people don’t understand that women married to emotionally abusive men want the relationship to work. That they try every single option. Every single one. And it’s only when they are out of options that they think, alright, I have to do this because I’m out of options. Before, when you did the in-home separation, that seemed like the only option at the time, right? Or the best option. **Lindsay:** It did seem like the best option. I did feel like I had a lot more options when I was making that decision. **Anne:** What options were you considering at that time? You were considering an out of home separation, an in-home separation? **Lindsay:** Honestly, I didn’t even consider an out of home at that time. ## **In-Home vs. Out-Of-Home Separation** **Anne:** So it was just options within an in-home separation? **Lindsay:** Or just within a relationship where I could say, okay, I need to not go on dates or I need to have variations in the space? The amount of space that I have emotionally and physically. **Anne:** Then when his abusive behaviors continue now you’re thinking, I’ve exhausted all those in-home separation options and now my only option is an out of home separation. Does this out of home separation include variations? **Lindsay:** Oh, yeah, absolutely. Because I know that there is a huge range of options in terms of does he still spend time at the house? Does he spend time with the kids? Is it really just a different place to sleep? Or is it like we’re living in different states? There’s a lot of options within that. **Lindsay:** It felt like I was at one level and I was jumping up to like five levels higher in terms of, you know, my boundaries, yeah. And that’s a big jump to make. **Anne:** I was talking with you while you were trying to make this decision. You would text me and call me and be like, am I thinking through this straight? Are these boundaries appropriate? What do I want to do? You finally decide, yes. I am going to ask him to move out. ## **Family’s Confusion & Judgment** **Anne:** Your family, again, was confused. **Lindsay:** Absolutely. **Anne:** They were like, why are you asking a perfectly capable, non violent man who holds down a job, who is active in our church, who is seemingly a good dad to move out? This is confusing to us. At that time, did they understand it? Any more or were they still baffled? **Lindsay:** I don’t know if I can make a good judgment on that, honestly, because I was in such trauma myself. My perspective on what they were thinking and feeling is probably very skewed. **Anne:** Eventually you move forward, regardless of what your perception of how other people felt. You’re currently separated with him out of the home. ## **Assessing Safety In Separation** **Anne:** How have you felt about your level of safety now? It’s so difficult to assess your safety in this situation because both scenarios feel unsafe. Having them stay in the home feels unsafe because they’re lying to you and using exploitative material and it just feels uncomfortable and it’s against your value system. Then secondly, having your children’s dad move out, financial ramifications that this might cause, emotional ramifications, the fact that this could result in divorce. You’re not quite ready to consider [if you should prepare for divorce](https://www.btr.org/how-to-prepare-for-divorce/ "if you should prepare for divorce"). Which you don’t want, feels unsafe too. So it’s like, which “unsafe scenario” do I choose and why? The decision is very complex. It’s not easy at all. But since you asked him to move out, have you felt, generally speaking, more emotionally safe? **Lindsay:** I would say I’ve felt more at peace. I don’t know if I would say more safe because realistically, I don’t know. I felt a lot of unease around asking for the out of home separation simply for the financial aspect of it. That was another reason why I hesitated for a long time. The conclusion that I came to, and it worked for us, this doesn’t work for everyone. I asked that he cover the cost with extra work. He come up with a cost so that it doesn’t dip into our normal finances. That gave me a lot of peace going into it saying this is possibly temporary. It could be temporary. And if it is temporary and he does end up moving back in, we end up reconciling and our relationship moves forward in a healthy way. It’s not going to impact us negatively in terms of our financial future. ## **Husband’s Dishonesty & Expectations** **Lindsay:** My husband in particular, one of the roots of his dishonesty is he wants to fulfill people’s expectations of him. I made a very conscious decision. I’m not going to outline a plan for him. I’m not going to outline what I need to see. In order for this to be better. **Anne:** Yeah, that’s exactly what I teach in the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). That women don’t make a list of all the things they want to see, and I explain exactly why you don’t want to do that. The type of list that’s not going to help you get to safety would be something like, I need you to go to group every week, I need you to go to therapy every week, I need you to do this, I need you to do that. They can fake all of that. They can check off all those boxes, but it doesn’t mean anything. It’s a good idea to just say, I don’t know. I’ll keep praying. keep pondering, keep observing and I’ll see how it feels. Yeah. as your friend, I feel like his behavior right now shows that he’s more concerned about his own comfort, than your safety. The [stages of deliverance from abuse](https://www.btr.org/long-term-effects-of-emotional-abuse-in-relationships/ "stages of deliverance from abuse") begin when you see the truth. **Lindsay:** Well, absolutely. That’s why we’re in this place right now. That’s the heart of it. **Anne:** Yeah. I’m mad. I’m mad because I’m your friend and I care about you. ## **The Long Process Of Healing** **Anne:** And this process to determine whether or not someone is going to actually learn and apply and practice and live healthy behaviors takes a long time. **Lindsay:** It took me a while to come to terms with the fact. That simply because I had started to do my own healing didn’t mean that he has, that he’s ready, and he’s committed. **Anne:** I think that’s why safety first is the best way to go. If you’re thinking, I need to establish safety for myself and for my home. And I don’t exactly know how to go about that, but safety is the top priority. I’m going to continue to set boundaries until I feel safe, whatever that looks like, then you’re never going to go wrong. **Lindsay:** It’s my goal is to keep moving in that direction. ## Conflict & **Prioritizing Safety In Boundaries** **Lindsay:** One thing that I feel. maybe some caution around the word safety is the idea that any relationship, whether it’s marriage or just with a friend or a family member, you can’t expect there to be no conflict. You can’t expect there to be no risks. So I feel some caution around the word safety simply because I don’t want to be so focused on the goal of safety that I don’t open myself up to deep, meaningful loving relationships. **Anne:** That’s interesting, because I don’t feel that way at all. I feel very safe with my close friends and family, but we’re getting in fights all the time. But it’s a safe space. I’m not abused. I’m not lied to, accused of things and not gaslit. Is there conflict? Totally, I’m very confrontational. As are many of the people around me. **Lindsay:** That makes sense with your background and personality. For me, who I am naturally, I know this about myself, I’m naturally conflict averse. I’m careful about me pushing safety too far. **Anne:** Or you confusing, I think might be the better word. Confusing safety and peace with a complete and total lack of conflict. **Lindsay:** Maybe. Because safety can mean not being in pain, to some people. **Anne:** For sure, but I wouldn’t say I’m in pain. I mean, I have conflicts that hurt my feelings or whatever, but it’s resolvable. With a safe person, you can resolve it. I guess what I’m saying is the pain can be resolved, not quickly, but like rather quickly. Like, if you get in a conflict, you can resolve it. Within a week, which is great. These other conflicts with your spouse or ex spouse are unresolvable. ## **Pain Of Growth in Relationships** **Lindsay:** I guess what I’m saying is, it’s not just like pain from getting feelings hurt, but I want to be open to the pain of growth. The growth in a relationship. That may come from conflict that lasts for a while. Anne: Right, but that doesn’t mean you’re unsafe. **Lindsay:** No. But to some people, and in some situations, the idea of being in pain, period, may feel unsafe. So, for example, in my relationship with my parents, I have a lot of growth to do there. I feel like that is the pain of growth, saying that, okay, I’m in pain. It’s okay for me to feel the pain of saying, I’m wrong sometimes. **Anne:** Yeah, totally. But that again, safety is about, is this person lying to you? Are they trying to manipulate you? Are they hurting you on purpose to try and take the attention away from their unhealthy behaviors? So if the person is. genuine, they really genuinely care for you. They’re not trying to manipulate you. Like my mom for example. I’ll just bring her up. She really wants me to do certain things and she tries to convince me in a lot of different ways. Could I call it manipulation? Maybe, but not really because she’s very direct about it. I don’t like those shoes you’re wearing. I don’t want you to wear them. Let me tell you the 17 reasons why they’re ugly. Then she’ll tell me that over and over and over. Right. And I’m like, I like those shoes. ## Is Conflict Abusive? **Anne:** She’s doing that because she genuinely loves and cares about me, which is so different than coming from a place of, I’m trying to hide things from you. Also I’m trying to make sure that you don’t confront me about my abusive behaviors. I think safety with people, even if there’s conflict, is totally achievable. So we can agree, we can maybe agree to disagree. **Lindsay:** Absolutely. I’m definitely okay with that. **Anne:** I’m like, wait a minute. No, you can get to safety. You really can. **Lindsay:** I do believe that. I just know that from my perspective where safety has been a very unclear thing to me and to people who are around me, it can be misinterpreted very easily. **Anne:** Maybe I need to go back and fix all my podcast episodes. Because I’m always talking about safety and people are like, well, that means that we never get in an argument or that means this. I’m like, no, it doesn’t. It’s never meant that. But I’m wondering now, are people interpreting this differently than, than how I intend it? Which they do all the time. ## Does Safety Mean No Conflict **Anne:** But that’s really interesting. There’s no way we can ever have a life free of fear or conflict. And actually we don’t want that. Right? Which would mean someone is lying or someone isn’t. **Lindsay:** But I used to think that that’s what I would want. I used to think that if I was in conflict in a relationship that things were not okay. That relationship is not okay. **Anne:** I think it depends on what you’re having a conflict about. You’re having a conflict about your shoes. Right. That relationship is fine. If you’re having a conflict about whether or not someone is stabbing people, that is not okay. It’s not going to be okay over here. What are your next steps? Are you feeling like you want to just settle into this? **Lindsay:** No, I don’t. I don’t want to settle into this because this is not my ideal. So for me, on the relationship front, it’s a waiting game. Wait and see what happens. Right. See what he does, see how he acts. I don’t think I mentioned this earlier, so I’ll mention it now. ## **Trusting Higher Power For Guidance** **Lindsay:** The key to that, for me, is developing and keeping my relationship with my higher power, such that I feel like I can trust my higher power to let me know if something is off. Because realistically, I don’t know if he’s lying to me. I don’t know if he’s acting out. There’s a lot that I don’t know. However; I have had multiple key moments in my relationship with my husband where I know that my higher power has made me aware of things that I did not know. **Anne:** Do you feel like your relationship with God, has improved over time? **Lindsay:** I still struggle with connecting with my higher power on a regular basis. I still struggle with having the motivation to want to do the things that I know I need to do to keep that connection strong. ## **Boundaries** & Out-Of-Home Separation **Anne:** Boundaries are hard, especially having your husband move out is a very difficult boundary. If you could go back in time and talk to your younger self, to tell her some things about boundaries that you have learned. What would you tell her? **Lindsay:** That it’s okay not to know what you’re doing. Because realistically, I don’t know that I would have learned the things that I needed to learn in order to set these boundaries any sooner than I did. Even if I told myself anything, any advice I could have given myself. And that’s okay. It’s okay to make mistakes. It’s okay to not have it down right now. It is something that’s gonna take time. **Anne:** I agree. I am now such an expert at boundaries, but I didn’t set a boundary at all before my ex was arrested. That was God telling me, let me help you out. You clearly are having problems, and just let me do this for you. I feel like that’s what happened. Then I was like, thank you! I can breathe now, and then I could figure out [how to set boundaries](https://www.btr.org/how-to-set-boundaries/ "how to set boundaries"). I’m just so grateful. It’s basically kept the boundary that God gave to me. Thank goodness. I don’t think I ever could have done it otherwise. Going back in time, I’d be like, you’re really, really bad at boundaries. That’s what I would have told myself. ## **Advice for Women Considering An In-Home Separation** **Anne:** For women right now who are considering a separation, either an in-home separation, or an out-of-home separation. Do you have any words of wisdom you could share with them? **Lindsay:** I just know what I did. Reach out to somebody who may be a little bit ahead of you on the journey, and then the people that are right there in the trenches with you. It helped to talk it out. It helped me clarify what my thoughts were and my feelings were. Also being open to guidance from my higher power. I can’t honestly say It’s something that I knelt down and prayed about because that’s just not the place I’m at right now, but connecting in other ways. **Anne:** Yeah, this is a tough journey. It’s intense. It’s unpredictable. I think peace is a good goal to work toward. I do think it’s possible and boundaries make that possible. ## **Final Thoughts & Gratitude** **Anne:** I teach women how to create and hold healthy boundaries in the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). A great big thank you to my friend, Lindsay. I’m so thankful for her. She’s a great example to me of someone who sets boundaries and is doing the best she can to be as healthy as possible. I genuinely admire her and I’m grateful for her friendship. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [If Your Husband Filmed You With A Hidden Camera, You're Not Alone](https://www.btr.org/if-your-husband-filmed-you-with-a-hidden-camera/) **Published:** April 18, 2023 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** If your husband filmed you with a hidden camera, you could be a victim of trafficking. **Content:** If your husband filmed you with a hidden camera, you could be a victim of trafficking. Dani Pinter is Senior Legal Counsel for the [National Center on Exploitation](https://endsexualexploitation.org/?gclid=CjwKCAiA8bqOBhANEiwA-sIlN3z6DmB5mgUce6YT-aYz0Kf91kqJM9K93f9itGy7MYIgVG2zQwCfvhoCPy8QAvD_BwE). The National Center on Exploitation was founded in 1962, and is the leading national nonpartisan organization. They expose the links between all forms of exploitation. Such as CSCAM, prostitution, trafficking, and the public harms of online explicit material. *If you are a victim of exploitation and would like to reach a representative from NCOSE. Please email <public@ncose.com> or call (202) 393-7245.* To discover if your husband is emotionally abusing you, take this [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ![I Was Filmed with a Hidden Camera](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/I-Was-Filmed-With-A-Hidden-Camera.webp "I Was Filmed with a Hidden Camera")## If Your Husband Filmed You With A Hidden Camera, You’re A Victim Of Domestic Abuse Too often, men betray and exploit their wives. Husbands have victimized members of The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community. By uploading explicit videos to websites. Women request them to take these videos down. Users download videos and the video will continue to resurface. This re-traumatizes victims over and over again. It’s hard to [experience growth](https://www.btr.org/treatment-for-divorce/) when this happens. ## The Necessity To Hold P\_\_nhub Accountable The trauma that P\_\_nhub victims experience is horrific and never-ending. Organizations like NCOSE recognize that exploitation is financially profitable. The organization itself isn’t reliable to self-police. That’s why NCOSE is calling on all credit card companies to stop processing payments for P\_\_nhub. ![Were You Filmed with a Hidden Camera](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Were-You-Filmed-With-A-Hidden-Camera.webp "Were You Filmed with a Hidden Camera")## How Can We Seek Justice for P\_\_nhub Victims? It’s not only large organizations and legislative decisions that can effect P\_\_nhub’s accountability. You can help, too. - Support the EARN IT act, which would hold “all platforms responsible” for child abuse material (CSAM). - Go to sexualexploitationlawsuits.com if you have been a victim of exploitation. And begin the process of seeking justice for yourself. - Refuse to use online explicit material and share your knowledge of its exploitative nature with others. Exploitation is traumatizing. If you are a victim of exploitation, you deserve justice and a safe place to process your trauma. Attend a [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session](https://www.btr.org/group/ "Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group") today, find the community you need to begin your healing journey. ![Your Husband Filmed You with a Hidden Camera](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Your-Husband-Filmed-You-With-A-Hidden-Camera.webp "Your Husband Filmed You with a Hidden Camera")## Transcript: If Your Husband Filmed You With A Hidden Camera **Anne:** I have Dani Pinter on today’s episode. She is Senior Legal Counsel for the National Center on Exploitation. The National Center on Exploitation was founded in 1962. It is the leading national non-partisan organization exposing the links between all forms of exploitation. Such as child abuse, prostitution, trafficking, and the public harms of online explicit material. And they have some amazing campaigns to stop the harm. Today, we’ll talk about a *New York Times* article that revealed that P\_\_nhub profits from child abuse material. And we call the national center on exploitation, NCOSE for short. NCOSE is calling on the Department of Justice to investigate P\_\_nhub. NCOSE has been supportive of revoking the immunity that digital platforms use to avoid accountability. And is urging Congress to pass the Earn It Act. They have a blog post about this. Today, NCOSE is calling on all credit card companies to cease processing payments for P\_\_nhub. And Dani Pinter is the lawyer for one of the survivors mentioned in the Times piece, talking about all [types of exploitation](/types-of-exploitation/). So I invited her today to talk about this specific issue, what NCOSE is doing, and what you can do to help. Okay, so to start, Dani, can you summarize the *New York Times* story for our audience? ![He Filmed Me with a Hidden Camera](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/He-Filmed-Me-With-A-Hidden-Camera.webp "He Filmed Me with a Hidden Camera")**Dani:** Sure, so Nick Kristof is an excellent journalist and reporter. What he did was highlight the reality that P\_\_nhub’s not just a explicit materials site. This platform hosts real rape videos. And real videos of exploitation and abuse of children. They also host. He did this through some examples he discovered, and also through the stories of some of those survivors. **Anne:** The article related to this podcast episode is on our website. ## Survivors’ Ongoing Struggles **Anne:** So as the lawyer for one of the survivors , what challenges are these survivors facing? Including those who’s intimae partner filmed them with a hidden camera? **Dani:** One survivor said their abuse never ended because of P\_\_nhub. Which is one of the biggest and most poignant things. Each survivor’s story is different. But they face some sort of exploitation, whether that was violent r\_pe, child abuse or trafficking. And even when that horrific trauma ended. It lived on in eternity, because it was recorded and uploaded to P\_\_nhub. And for my client, that has meant these videos and images have spread all over the internet. She feels helpless to get rid of them, and faces them every day. She reached out to P\_\_nhub and others and asked them to bring these videos down. They distributed it without her consent. Because she was trafficked. But she was a minor. So this is CSCAM actively online on P\_\_nhub available for free. You can Google the site, go on it, and reach it in seconds. P\_\_nhub also allows this for download. So even though it was completely non-responsive to some victims. They took down videos Nicole asked them to take down. Only for them to resurface again and again. **Anne:** Because someone had downloaded and re-uploaded it? https://youtube.com/shorts/mHgIHT2Dtrw **Dani:** Yes, so P\_\_nhub claims they use this cutting edge photo DNA technology. So banned videos can never re-enter the site. But Nicole is living proof that’s not true. Her videos and images are re-uploaded time and time again. **Anne:** What are potential solutions for helping survivors receive justice when it seems so difficult from what you’ve described? **Dani:** Well, there’s a couple, and you touched on some of them. ## Potential Legal Solutions The Department of Justice can now prosecute P\_\_nhub. I want to talk a little about the immunity that internet platforms face. But even with that immunity, they’re not immune from federal criminal law violations. So if the Department of Justice had the will. They could absolutely investigate and prosecute P\_\_nhub for the mass trafficking and CSCAM on their site. So we want them to do that. Then additionally for victims, because there’s a very high threshold, to be successful in a criminal case. Because of limited resources, it’s difficult. So at NCOSE, we see the value in bringing civil litigation. **Dani:** That’s where a survivor brings a civil case for monetary damages against a company. That holds them accountable. It makes them self-police. And it gets some measure of justice and recovery for the victims. Immunity prevents many of these victims from doing that. Because of that federal immunity. There’s a law called the Communications Decency Act. It was passed about 20 years ago. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) And was actually an attempt to prevent the spread of obscenity and CSCAM on the internet. But the court struck it down, finding it unconstitutional, and kept only one part of that statute. And the part of that statute that it kept was Section 230, and that was a good faith law. It shields protection for platforms. The statute meant to try to limit the spread of some harmful things on the internet. And if you do that in good faith, you’re immune from civil liability and state criminal liability. So even if your husband filmed you with a hidden camera and uploaded it, there may be no consequences for it. **Dani:** Then the whole thing was struck down. We were left with justice immunity. ## If Your Husband Filmed You With A Hidden Camera: Section 230 and Platform Immunity It was interpreted extremely broadly, because this was at the beginning of the internet. The courts expressed they wanted to allow the internet to flourish and not be prohibitive. So what that plays out in reality is that internet platforms have essentially blanket immunity. That’s why they’ve grown so large, but that’s also why they’re almost accountable for nothing on their site. Specifically, what it says is that websites or web platforms are not responsible for third party content on their site. So P\_\_nhub’s entire business model depends on this immunity, if not structured, because of this immunity. So what P\_\_nhub does is it allows anyone to upload any video. All you need is an email address. You can be a child. We’ve had countless cases of minors uploading videos of themselves on P\_\_nhub. And they say that’s third party content. We’re not responsible for that. So that’s where CDA 230 immunity has many problems. Not just with P\_\_nhub, but also on some of our mainstream social media sites. Where there may be trafficking or abuse material. And the site’s just not motivated to self-police, because they know they could never be held accountable. **Anne:** Many of our [listeners are victims of betrayal](https://www.btr.org/podcast/). Wives of users of online explicit materials users who are abuse victims. If your husband filmed you with a hidden camera, you are an abuse victim. Also because of [marital coercion](https://www.btr.org/what-is-marital-coercion/ "marital coercion"), they’ve been coerced into relationships with a man. Who says, hey, I totally abide by your boundaries. I don’t look at online explicit material. I don’t visit prostitutes. But they actually do. So they’re coercing their wives. They’re using emotional and psychological abuse because they’re [lying is emotionally abusive,](/is-lying-emotional-abuse/ "lying is emotionally abusive,") and gaslighting to hide their online explicit materials use. ## Betrayal Trauma & Online Explicit Materials But they actually do. So they’re coercing their wives. They’re using emotional and psychological abuse because they’re lying and gaslighting to hide their online explicit materials use. **Anne:** One of the things we talk about at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Is that a woman in a relationship with a man actively using online explicit materials, hiding it, using gaslighting and manipulation. They are going in depth [wondering if it’s wrong to check their husbands phone ](https://www.btr.org/is-it-wrong-to-check-your-husbands-phone/ "wondering if it's wrong to check their husbands phone ")for this kind of stuff. https://www.btr.org/is-it-wrong-to-check-your-husbands-phone/She’s in an abusive relationship. So I’m always talking about how it is always an abuse issue. That is the issue at hand. Is it addictive? Sure, but we need to look at it from an abuse issue to treat it seriously. So knowing that, what are the solutions that would help solve the explosion of CSCAM? And other illegal and harmful content on P\_\_nhub? **Dani:** Well, there are some bare minimum things that we’d like to see, which would be age and consent verification. Because many women, I’m sure some of your listeners, have experienced being recorded by a hidden camera, and not agreeing to its subsequent dissemination, which is a huge problem. You of all people understand. People get motivated to protect children. But it’s even more difficult to get the political will behind shutting down this type of image-based abuse. These platforms exploit adult women without their consent. There’s also the fact that obscenity law is valid federal law on the books right now. And what most people don’t understand is that although technically, the First Amendment protects it. That’s just because, what is it, right? It could be anything from a magazine, to art, to what we see on P\_\_nhub. So technically, the First Amendment protects the term pornography, but obscenity is not. In fact, obscenity isn’t even protected in the least. ## Obscenity Law & Federal Prosecution **Dani:** The court says obscenity is not speech, and has no protection. It is a crime to disseminate obscenity, it has a long legal definition, but the court has given guidelines. And said that explicit hardcord acts without any literary, political, scientific value is obscenity. That’s all the content on P\_\_nhub. The Department of Justice can prosecute that right now. If your husband filmed you with a hidden camera and posted it, they could be prosecuted. The truth is, when they actively prosecuted this. Which it was several presidents ago. What you see is that the content itself becomes milder and milder. The producers self-police. They know they could actually be prosecuted. So what you get is significantly less exploited material and significantly less people being exploited. And even though this hasn’t been a priority of the U.S. federal government for a long time. There were still holdover cases that, as I think it was at 2012, the federal government got a prosecution in California. Against a producer for obscenity. And so that shows that it’s still possible. And there’s no reason why we shouldn’t be doing that. **Anne:** Absolutely, can you talk about why they need more accountability? **Dani:** Yes, it’s because exploitation is profitable. Many people don’t realize how exploitive these sites are. And how many people experience exploitation on even our mainstream social media sites. The reality is that it is in the company’s financial interest to have the most content possible. To have the most users possible, to have the most economic transactions possible. Even if that means CSCAM. And at the National Center on Exploitation, we have been shining a light on these issues. ## Has Your Husband Filmed You With A Hidden Camera: The Need for Corporate Accountability **Dani:** These platforms know what’s going on, and P\_\_nhub sees it. They certainly know what’s going on, and they’ve proven they won’t do the right thing on their own. They will not, and won’t even protect kids. They’re certainly not going to spend money to protect kids, and they won’t even lose profits to protect kids. So unfortunately, a sad reality is that when exploitation is profitable, you can’t leave it up to the corporations. **Anne:** I could not agree more. So on that note, how can our audience help stop this? **Dani:** So please support the EARN IT Act. As you mentioned, we would like to see the CDA 230 immunity go away altogether. But at least, EARN IT is a step in the right direction. So the EARN IT Act would hold all platforms responsible for the very narrow issue of CSCAM So if you have it on your site, you’re going to be accountable for that. We need this urgently, because it is an absolute epidemic. The National Center on Missing and Exploited Children has one million reports of CSCAM a month. It is beyond the capacity for law enforcement to even investigate every case. So we need these sites to do it themselves. And the only way that’s going to happen is with legislation like Earn It. Which is fair and balanced, despite the fact that tech companies are spending millions to convince you otherwise. So please go to our website. There are action items on how you can support that bill. We’re coming to a close session now, but we’ve made so much headway. We unanimously got through the Senate judiciary committee. ## Supporting The EARN IT Act **Dani:** We have a house sponsor now, and we hope it’s one of the first bills passed in the next session. So. Please support that. I think it’s one of the most urgent things we could do in the near future. **Anne:** So to get information about that, their website is [endsexualexploitation. org](https://endsexualexploitation.org). One of the best ways to get involved with this campaign, but also the others they have, is to get on their mailing list. They send frequent emails to say, hey, take action on this now. And it’s a good and easy way to become involved, and they make it clear how to do that. **Dani:** One of the things I would like to say, especially to your pool of listeners. I am so sorry that you’ve experienced what you have at the hands of online explicit material and users. If you’ve experienced being filmed by a hidden camera by your husband or if you’ve been exploited online. Please contact us, because we want to represent survivors like you. And we want to use your experience for the good and hold these corporations accountable. So I would encourage you to contact me. If you could please put my contact info in here. We have a website for more information on potential causes of action. Potential lawsuits you may have. If you check it out, there’s a lot of information on internet platforms and how they’re exploitative. And a questionnaire that you can fill out about your experience. We’ll follow up with you, and we’d love to help you if we can. ## If Your Husband Filmed You With A Hidden Camera: Reach Out For Help **Anne:** If you have a story to tell, if your husband has filmed you with a hidden camera. Without your knowledge and posted it online. We have many women who have had that experience where their husband has filmed them without their knowledge. He filmed and uploaded that. So please contact them if that has happened to you. Some women are stopped from getting help by what their spiritual leaders are are telling them about obedience and [what the Bible says](/what-does-the-bible-say-about-cheating-husbands/). **Anne:** Dani, thank you so much for taking the time to come on today’s episode. **Dani:** Thank you so much. It was wonderful to speak to your audience, I appreciate you. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [How Do I Know If It's Abuse? - Lorelai's Story](https://www.btr.org/how-do-i-know-if-its-abuse/) **Published:** April 11, 2023 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Abusers aim to confuse us. Almost all abuse victims don't recognize it at first. **Content:** The nature of psychological and emotional abuse leaves many victims unsure, asking how do I know if it’s abuse? To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take this [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ![How Do I Tell if Its Abuse Signs](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/how-do-I-tell-if-its-abuse.webp "How Do I Tell if Its Abuse")Lorelai, a member of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery community, joins Anne on the free BTR podcast to share her powerful story of escaping her husband’s sexual abuse, constant manipulation and gaslighting. Through the fog of abuse, she was able to use empowering tools to identify the abuse and set safety boundaries to begin her journey to healing. ## How Do I Know If It’s Abuse: It Doesn’t Have To Be Physical Battering To Qualify As Abuse Often, victims question the reality of their abusive relationship because they haven’t been punched in the face or put in the hospital. Physical battering is absolutely abuse – but it isn’t the only kind of abuse. Other forms of abuse include: - Gaslighting - Manipulation - Betrayal (including secret pornography use) - Sexual coercion - Marital rape - Covert physical harm - Threats - Financial domineering - Spiritual domineering ![How Do I Tell if Its Emotional Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/how-do-I-know-if-its-emotional-abuse.webp "How Do I Know if Its Emotional Abuse")## How Can I Learn More About Abuse? Victims become empowered to identify the abuse and create [healthy boundaries in marriage](/healthy-boundaries/) as they become educated about abuse. Some of the most helpful resources we recommend include: - Anne Blythe’s [books about betrayal trauma](/books/) - Listen to The FREE [betrayal trauma podcast](/podcast/ "Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast") Visit our [books page](https://www.btr.org/books/) for a list of curated books that we recommend to victims. ## How Do I Know If It’s Abuse: If You’re Here, Trust Yourself Victims of psychological abuse often experience so much gaslighting, that discerning reality can feel nearly impossible. If you are here, we encourage you to trust yourself. Seek support, empowerment, and education, but trust your instincts. If you feel abused, you probably are. Take appropriate steps to protect yourself, and set safety boundaries to separate yourself from abusive behavior. [Join our online betrayal trauma support group](/group/ "Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group") is here for you as you begin your healing journey. Join today. ![What is Hidden Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/what-is-hidden-abuse-1.webp "What is Hidden Abuse")## Transcript: How Do I Know If It’s Abuse? **Anne:** Lorelai, a member of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery community, is on today’s episode. Welcome Lorelai. **Lorelai:** Thank you for having me. **Anne:** We’re so glad you’re here and grateful that you’re willing to share. Let’s start at the beginning. Did you recognize your husband’s behavior as abusive at first? **Lorelai:** No, absolutely not. I had been in a previously abusive relationship, and that one was obvious. And then I met my husband, and he seemed like a gift from God. We’ve been for 17 years now. I did not realize it was abusive until a couple of years ago. And honestly, I didn’t realize the extent or scope of it. There was a lot of confusion. My husband is very subtle about it. It was really hard for me to catch. I started following Betrayal Trauma Recovery regularly and like, overnight I was like, Oh, that explains everything. ![How Do I Know if Its Abuse Signs](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/how-do-I-know-if-its-abuse.webp "How Do I Know if Its Abuse")**Anne:** When I was first married, I had a friend in a really abusive relationship. When I say really abusive, I would say mine was really abusive. I just didn’t know it, I didn’t understand psychological abuse and emotional abuse. Hers was physical. It was obvious. He was throwing things around. When I would tell her what was going on. She’d be like, Oh no, mine was way worse than that. Yours is a good guy. What I went through was confusing because of all the psychological abuse. What did you attribute it to in the beginning, anger issues? What did you think was going on when you didn’t understand it was abuse? ## Attributing Behavior To Circumstances **Lorelai:** A good family raised my husband. He’s the youngest of five. He has strong family connections, but his family was a little weird. He got a lot of passes on many things, being the youngest of five. I attributed it to his family’s ongoing issues. And I attributed it to the blending of two families, because I have kids from my first relationship. People say [marriage is hard work.](/marriage-is-hard-work/ "marriage is hard work.") I attributed it to the stress of working two jobs and being a police officer, and thought it was all circumstantial, like oh, he’s in a bad mood or he’s tired. I didn’t think it was calculated and deliberate until Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Then I pinpointed exactly where it was calculated and deliberate. It shocked me. I was shocked at how calculated and deliberate it was. **Anne:** It is shocking. Your whole paradigm of how you see your husband crumbles when you realize, wait a minute. I’ve been seeing him as a good guy who gets frustrated every once in a while. I realized he’s an abusive man. The mask comes off. ![Why Do Abusive Men Care So Much About "Gender Roles"?](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/g4KuN5j4dpk/maxresdefault.jpg) **Lorelai:** Yeah, for my husband, he puts out this persona of this great family guy. But when I looked closely, what I could see was him controlling every aspect of me. So how do I know if it’s abuse? It had nothing to do with the kids, his family, or my family. He was putting one image on everything, but I could pinpoint all our fights down to his inability to control me. I’m a little bit of a fighter. I’m not just going to take it. So I was good at calling him on his crap. I was good at protecting my kids and trying to keep the peace. ## Assertive Communication Myth **Lorelai:** The harder I fought for what I knew was right, because I knew it was right. The more kickback I got, but only after Betrayal Trauma Recovery did I see that he was trying to control me the whole time. So that was eye-opening. **Anne:** I am a fighter too. And I want to educate women about the myth of assertive communication. Because many women say to me, had I fought and had I called him out, maybe he wouldn’t have been that way. This is a big step in [recovering from betrayal trauma.](https://www.btr.org/recover-from-betrayal-trauma/ "recovering from betrayal trauma.") Your experience and my experience are no, we fought him every step of the way. And we still got abused and manipulated. **Lorelai:** Absolutely, absolutely. ![Ways to Tell if Its Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/how-to-tell-if-its-abuse.webp "How to Tell if Its Abuse")**Anne:** Were you aware of any exploitative materials use or any infidelity in your relationship? **Lorelai:** My husband is a very private person. Being a police officer, he has his own computer and his phone is on lockdown. He actually works in a different state from where I live, because our youngest child has a significant disability. So he goes to school in a different area than where my husband works. And he’s been kind of bouncing back and forth between the two states. So we only saw him once or twice a week, really for the last five or six years. So there wouldn’t have been any way for me to know, but he confessed to me at some point. And now looking back, I realized it was a manipulation. So it may or may not be true. ## Identifying Abuse: Infidelity & Wifely Duties **Lorelai:** But he told me that he had been emotionally involved with several, multiple, like more than five women at work. He said he just got caught up emotionally with them. He said nothing physical happened, but that he had spent a lot of time talking to them and sharing with them. He’d be like, I may have inadvertently not filled you in on things, because by the time I realized you didn’t know about it, it was way too late to fill you in. **Anne:** The abusive behaviors you knew about were lying, manipulation, and gaslighting. **Lorelai:** Everything physical and psychological, when you’re young and get married, you always want to have sex. Sometimes you give in when your husband wants to do it a second time. When I was younger, I didn’t think about it. I didn’t think about abuse, or how do I know how to identify abuse? [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) But looking back, I had it multiple times a day, it was too much. I was sore all the time. After we had our fourth child, I only got two weeks recovery before he expected me to return to fulfilling my duties. **Anne:** “Fulfilling your duties,” Was that kind of a theme in your marriage? That it was owed to him, that it was one of your wifely duties? **Lorelai:** Yes, it was owed to him. Although, he sugar coated it by making sure it was always good for me. And being really frank here, I love it. So it was easy for me to go along with it. ## Marital Abuse & Disabled Child **Lorelai:** When he put the effort in, I could have as many orgasms as I wanted, as long as I put out for him. So I didn’t realize at first that I couldn’t say no. I didn’t realize I couldn’t say no until, again, having our fifth child. He’s seriously disabled, and trying to say no, and then finding out that that wasn’t an option. He is my last child. His official diagnosis is autistic. He’s almost 13 now, and he is a big toddler. He’s potty trained, but his interests are on the level of a 2-3 year old. He can kind of write his name, he’s a happy kid, but he’s a lot of work. He’s a sweetie, but he’s a big baby, and he has a strict bedtime. As my child’s disability became more apparent, I needed more. My husband was not willing to give it, I started being tired, depressed, or frustrated. As things progressed, I needed to talk more. So I would need to talk or relax before it, and that wasn’t an option. And if I couldn’t talk or relax, and I wasn’t in the mood, there was a point where he could do stuff to me in the middle of the night. My body would respond, and it wasn’t a problem. Does that make sense? When the relationship was less damaging, my body would respond. I still wasn’t thinking about abuse, or wondering if I was being abused. **Anne:** So what you’re saying is Even though it wasn’t necessarily consensual, you were like, okay, in the middle of the night, even though you didn’t say, yes, I want to have it. It was enjoyable for you. It was fine. ## Boundaries & Night Incidents **Anne:** Later, when you became tired and life got difficult. When he would start in the middle of the night without your consent, you were like, wait a minute. **Lorelai:** Yeah, I feel like I was doing it out of obligation. Fine, get it over with, guys have needs, whatever. Which is obviously not a healthy mindset, but that’s where it was. To the point, where I suddenly started having issues with orgasms. At some point in there, he developed erectile dysfunction. Looking back on it, may have been a gift from God. **Anne:** Mm hmm, pornography related, by the way. **Lorelai:** Yes, when he couldn’t perform, it became like a mission for him to force me to perform. The answer would be no. He’d push it until I gave in, or until I said no, then he’d do it in the middle of the night anyway. Eventually, it reached a point where, not only could I not have an orgasm, but also, if I did, it was painful. It was like being stabbed in the crotch with hot forks. And he would do it anyway. He would wake me up and I would be crying in the middle of the night, sobbing, because it was painful and horrible. And he would be like, this is so horrible for me. And I would be like, then stop doing it because it’s horrible for me. You’re doing it to me. I didn’t ask for this. I didn’t want this. I didn’t know that this [what marital coercion was.](/what-is-marital-coercion/ "what marital coercion was.") That was when I answered, how do I know if it’s abuse? I realized there was abuse going on. ## How Do I Know If It’s Abuse: Carrying The Whole Weight Of The Household **Lorelai:** But like I said, I didn’t catch on to the emotional stuff until last summer. **Anne:** So before you recognize the abuse, the anger, manipulation, lies, gaslighting, did you do anything to try and solve the problem. In other words, the typical marriage advice. Like, communicate better, be sexy, or go on a date night. Did you try any of that to “make sure” he didn’t get angry, or was in a good mood? **Lorelai:** Oh yeah, absolutely, I carried the whole weight of the household. I did all the bills, cooking, cleaning, and took care of the kids. He did nothing. He literally came home from work, sat on the couch and played on his phone. Or just watched TV, or walked his property, you know, king of the castle. He was king of the castle. He did nothing. I planned all the dates. I planned all the trips. And then there became a point where he would sabotage all those things, and I could see him doing it. I just didn’t know why he was doing it. So I would plan things, and he would be so on board. And then we’d go and do it, and he’d be mean to the kids, super grumpy, it was ridiculous. I got to a point where I was like, fine, you plan date nights, and he didn’t. The relationship really tanked when I stopped doing all the work. **Anne:** Is that also when the sexual abuse started to get worse? **Lorelai:** Probably, my memory is not good. I’m good at blocking stuff out. And just forgetting all the things that I don’t want to think about. But I’m sure it probably did line up like that. ## Setting A Boundary & Him Crossing It **Anne:** Yeah. We all struggle with memory issues, so no worries there. We get it. You don’t recognize you’re being emotionally and psychologically abused here, but when you knew it was abuse. What did you start to do? **Lorelai:** I stopped discussing it with him, because there were always discussions about it before that. And what was going to make it good for everybody. At that point, I was like no, this isn’t a discussion because it’s not good for me. You’re forcing it on me, and you need to stop doing what you’re doing. Don’t touch me, don’t force me, and don’t do stuff to me in the middle of the night. Don’t even kiss me unless you’ve checked with me first. I set a hard, no physical contact boundary until I say so. And he just stopped, except for in the middle of the night. Again, stuff was happening in the middle of the night. I’m exhausted and was sleeping deep. There was no waking me up. I would wake up in the morning, or I’d have nightmares. I knew something happened, but I wouldn’t have been able to wake up for it. So, during the day, he was farther away physically, and at night, the incidents were still happening. That was a really clear message to me that he didn’t care about my boundaries. **Anne:** Did you ever feel like he didn’t care about you? **Lorelai:** Oh yeah, I felt that way all the time, but I kept trying to tell myself that wasn’t true. ## Seeking Help From Clergy **Lorelai:** You don’t marry somebody in the temple and have kids with them, and buy them a house and a car. And see, I’m a woman, so common sense dictates that you don’t treat people like that unless you love them. So, it never occurred to me to doubt his love for me. But his kind of love is not the kind of love I want anyway. About two years ago, it had gotten to the point where I was suicidal. I have a handicapped child and four other wonderful children, and a great supportive family. And I was suicidal, and I could not figure out what it was. I talked to my Bishop and said, look, like I’m unhappy in my marriage. My husband treats me like garbage. I’m not happy about what’s going on. Now, let me be clear. I’ve talked to several bishops about this, and nobody did anything. One of my bishops was going to tank Jason’s career over it. He was convinced not to, because that was not in the best interest of anybody at that point. And so he backed off and left it alone. And after that point, I didn’t feel comfortable seeing him, because I knew he felt strongly about it. He was a great guy, and had eight girls, okay? He had a lot of kids, and they were all girls. So he was one of those guys looking out for his women, and he was protective. I didn’t want to talk to him about it anymore. because I was concerned he would talk to Jason and that Jason would make my life worse. ## Identifying abuse: Bishops’ Reactions **Anne:** All right, many women come on this podcast, and I talk to a lot of women. They are concerned their clergy isn’t doing enough. They’re concerned they’re not taking it seriously, and that they’re not holding them accountable. Now we know every woman’s situation is different. So in this case, in your particular instance, your concern with this bishop wasn’t that he was not doing enough. It was that he was doing so much that you were worried about his job? **Lorelai:** Yes, Jason is a police officer, but it’s like the military. There’s a rank, there’s a chain of command to go up. My bishop at that time was in the military, so he understood that chain of command and was willing to take steps. But it was not a good idea at that time, financially and socially for my kids. It would have broken our family apart, and I was just not in any kind of healthy place at that point to go through that. **Anne:** I want to just pause here to note. All the things that victims go through, because people are always like, why don’t women report sexual abuse? Talking to Lorelai, a super smart, capable, aware person in an abusive relationship who gets help from someone. Then faces all these other consequences that people don’t consider. And that is one of the reasons why women don’t report. And that’s also one of the reasons why sometimes they say, no, don’t help. It’s important to understand all the different aspects when they’re trying to figure out what’s going on. And figuring out how to identify abuse, and then secondly, when they’re trying to get to safety. ## Concerned Clergy **Lorelai:** Yes, absolutely. Remember, because I told you that I live in a different state than my husband. We were in the state where he worked. I’m in a different state now. But he basically lived with his parents, where he worked when he was working. And when he was not working, he would return to where we are in a different state. So when that move happened, obviously we had a different bishop than the last one trying to look out for me. And it’s been five years since we’ve been here, and we’ve had two bishops. And the first one, I think, was concerned. My first bishop here was friends with Jason, so it was not going to get addressed. I could see that he felt bad. He actually cried when I told him what was going on, but he did nothing. By the time I was suicidal, we had a different bishop. And when I talked to him about what was going on with Jason, he’s not a crier. So that didn’t happen. He did not confront Jason either, because I told him not to. But what he did was reinforce to me. He said my dad was abusive to my mom, and nobody should ever have to go through that. He said I’m not gonna tell you what to do. I’m not gonna tell you to leave him, I’m not gonna tell you to stay with him. What I’m will say is that what is happening to you right now is not okay, it’s abuse. It should not be happening. ## Medication & Realization **Lorelai:** If you’re suicidal, maybe you want to think about seeing a psychiatrist and getting on some meds. But absolutely, what he’s doing to you is wrong. He was pretty new, so I don’t know that he knew exactly what to do. When he just recommended I go get some medication. But that’s how it started. I started with medication for being suicidal. And while I was on the medication, I realized I could pretty much ignore all the horrible things he did, because I just stopped caring. I was totally zombied out. They tried me on six different medications in a year. At the end of it, I realized that the health problems I had already developed because of being in this abusive relationship were worse. My health worsened because of the medication I was taking that I didn’t need. What I needed was to get out of the abusive relationship, stop taking the medication, and deal with the relationship. So what I did was look at your stuff on Facebook. Facebook has that great algorithm. You know, if you’ve looked at this, you might like this. So Facebook knew I was looking for a therapist to deal with some trauma. So I found Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I stopped seeing my one therapist within a few months, and started coaching with Betrayal Trauma Recovery. There was a particularly bad incident. I don’t even remember what happened, but it was bad. And I didn’t know what to do. ## Betrayal Trauma Recovery Helps Identify abuse **Lorelai:** I opened Facebook and saw Betrayal Trauma Recovery and the support group. I signed up for the group, and went to my first one. And I was trying to talk to people about what was happening, because I was just sorting it out. I was confused and like, what is going on here? How do I fix this? How do I know if it’s abuse for sure? Like I said, just shock. Group resonated so drastically in my soul, instantaneously. I thought, I am officially not responsible for this relationship anymore. It was this huge weight off of me, it was like the lightbulb went on, ding! I was overwhelmed. It wasn’t me, it was never me, it was always him. I could trace it all the way back through now 18 years. I could see every incident. Everything just resonated. It was like, this is not your fault. The problem is not you. The problem is with his behavior. **Lorelai:** And at that point, I was like, yep, and within about three months, we were separated. **Anne:** This is why abuse education is so important. Abuse education doesn’t create abuse. The abuse exists and we help women recognize it. Some of these women have found out crazy things, to the point where some are wondering, “[Is my husband gay?](/is-my-husband-gay/)” It’s not the women who come to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, whose husbands are these incredible healthy men. And then after they get educated about abuse, they’re like, oh, my word, he’s abusive. That doesn’t happen. If he’s healthy, and women listen to the podcast and get educated about abuse. They are like, oh, I don’t relate to that. So for women listening and wondering I’m not sure. That makes me nervous. I don’t want to go to this group, and they’re going to make a mountain of a mole hill. ## Knowing Whether Or Not He’s Abusive **Anne:** I want to put everybody at ease. Many women have listened to the podcast or they’ve attended a group session. And they’re like, I didn’t relate. Also, my workshop helps women know [what to do after betrayal](/clarity/) helps women figure out what is my husband’s true character. Many women have enrolled, and they’re like, holy cow, this explains everything. Then other women have been like, this definitely explains abuse, and now I know he’s not abusive. Your abusive husband will tell you that Betrayal Trauma Recovery was the cause of you thinking he’s abusive when he’s not. And that’s just not true. You will know once you get educated about abuse, whether he’s abusive, and then you can make decisions. **Lorelai:** Oh, absolutely. **Anne:** Can you talk about maybe your fear at first? **Lorelai:** I didn’t have that. I read all the relationship books. My husband was sneaky. It was just little things. Nobody noticed them. I didn’t even notice them. He would just blink, and then I would blow up, and I would be the crazy one. I’m the redhead, the one who’s losing it all the time over dumb stuff. I’m the one who’s just stressed and overwhelmed from taking care of the baby. Never mind the fact that he never bothered to help take care of the baby. It was always me. He had made it clear from the beginning that he was putting up with me, and I believed him. That’s my issue. I don’t know why I believed him for 17 years. That’s something I’m working through now. It’s helping me. ## Separation & Moving On **Lorelai:** And honestly, it’s helping my girls, because guess what? I have two girls. Who are 21 and 23 respectively, who are struggling with relationships. These guys are not up to par, and they don’t know why this stuff is happening. So my girls and I are doing the work together. It took a little bit to separate. He did not want to separate. It’s funny, because the whole time he tells me that maybe he needs to find somebody else because I’m so worthless. Then when I say, great, let’s move on, he’s like, no, no, I don’t want to move on. Because he doesn’t get to control me if I move on. So it took a little bit of doing to get him out. Obviously, I can’t just pick up my handicapped kid out of his special school and relocate anywhere. I had to convince my husband, who was pretty much living in another state anyway, except for one or two days a week, to just stay, and to let his child be here. So it took a little bit of doing to get that done. He pretty much cut off support the minute that he realized it was over. **Anne:** That’s very, very typical of an abuser, because they don’t care about your welfare or the kid’s welfare. Because no one who actually cared about you would think, like, how’s she going to pay for groceries? Like, how are my kids gonna eat? But it’s a control tactic to cut off the finances. Because if they cut off the finances, they think you’re going to come crawling back because you’re desperate for groceries. So it’s a control tactic. ## How Do I Know If It’s Abuse: Financial Abuse **Lorelai:** Yeah, you know what’s funny? Thinking back, my husband has used every abuse tactic in the book, but he didn’t use them at the same time. Because I fought it and adapted. So when one abuse tactic stopped working, he switched to a different one. And his biggest abuse tactic was the financial abuse. So for the last three or four years, I haven’t had any credit cards of my own. He’s in charge of the money. And I just thought he was finally being responsible. I thought he was finally interested in the budget, but he was systematically cutting me off of everything. In the middle of us separating, he refinanced the house and took my name off the mortgage. Which I guess was supposed to hurt me, but actually it’s gonna hurt him because I’m still on the deed. Every time I established a boundary, he would adapt his abuse. It wasn’t gonna end. **Anne:** Instead of recognizing that you’re equal and on the same team. Abusive men feel like they don’t have any power. They don’t have any personal power unless they have power over someone. One of the ways they keep an imbalance of power is by withholding information so that they know more than you. So if you find out what they know, suddenly you’re equal. So then they’re like, Oh shoot, I’ve got to find another way to maintain this power imbalance. Because that is what abuse is, in a nutshell: they don’t feel like they have any power in their own life unless they have power over you. So how do I know if it’s abuse? If he has to maintain power over you. ## Healthy Relationships **Anne:** Whereas in a healthy relationship, two people find power from honesty and equality. The power is the personal power that you have when you’re honest, kind and integrity. That is a power that I don’t think these abusive men understand. **Lorelai:** Yeah, I’ve devoted my whole life to my kids. I have five kids, and we’re all close. Looking back, I’ve seen where he wasn’t happy about that. He wasn’t happy my kids and I were close, or when he would end up on the outside. Just because he never bothered to spend time with anybody, get to know anybody, or be involved in anybody’s lives. He hated that. And so looking back, I realized that many of the problems I had with my kids, a lot of just normal parenting stuff, you know, fights and who’s in charge of this. He started because he didn’t want me and my children to have a good relationship. I have only seen our relationship get stronger as I’ve moved on. My kids and I are closer than ever. I was just thinking about this this morning, it kind of made me cry a little bit. I have five children, and three are from a different dad, but my kids don’t talk about being half siblings. It’s just brothers and sisters, they’re all super close. And they’re all super caring and loving towards each other, and there’s no distinction for us. He didn’t understand that, and he’s missing out. **Anne:** Yeah, so he cut you off financially. Did you have to file stuff in court in order to help your finances? **Lorelai:** Yes, we had to expedite things when he cut everybody off. My mom died unexpectedly from cancer and we moved here to help my dad put the pieces back together. ## Support From Family **Lorelai:** And then we ended up staying, because the schools here were fantastic. And my little guy needed a good school. So we decided it was in his best interest. And my husband had no problem living halfsies, one in each state. Because it was for the greater good of our youngest child. So my dad has been supportive. As soon as my mom died, he basically was like, can I just live with you? He has a room at my house, and he has moved in full time. Since Jason and I separated, my dad has been great about making sure everything’s covered for me. It’s hard for him to see what’s going on. **Anne:** Has he been surprised at how abusive Jason is? **Lorelai:** Yes, he has. I don’t know if he would have believed it if he hadn’t seen it with his own eyes. I’m the oldest of five. One of my brothers has died, but I still have other siblings, and I’m pretty close with everybody. I think everybody was surprised. You never know what goes on in people’s lives. It’s so important not to make judgment calls or anything based on what you can see on the outside. But yeah, so my dad has been really, really, really great. He’s helped me start a business. I’m doing a notary business now, and I work another job. I can work from home, all gifts from God, because it’s hard to get out with my little guy. **Anne:** One of the things I noticed once I stopped managing his life. Number one was he didn’t do anything, nothing to try and get back in my home. But I also noticed how peaceful I felt. I noticed how much better my life was going. ## How Do I Know If It’s Abuse: Emotional Growth & Recovery **Anne:** Even though I was in like limbo in terms of how anything was going to go, I was feeling a lot better. Tell me where you are in that process and how you’re feeling right now. **Lorelai:** I’m feeling good. It was hard, right after it happened. It was bleak in the winter. But I did a lot of coaching with Betrayal Trauma Recovery during that time. That was helpful. My health improved, I don’t have night terrors anymore, I’m not as afraid all the time. Then I crunched hard on my business, because I needed something to keep me going. While I felt safer at home, checking my email was always traumatic. I got a pain in my chest when I checked my email and saw an email from him, because I knew it wasn’t going to be anything good. So now we have the *Our Family Wizard* app. **Anne:** Yeah, using the strategies you learned from my workshop [about what to do after betrayal](/clarity/) improves things significantly. Women say they start feeling better because they’re not as traumatized by their phone, especially when they implement the strategies on *Our Family Wizard*. **Lorelai:** Yeah, getting accurate documentation of all the abuse. Because we still own this house together, and my oldest son is also autistic, he was the main guy on my son’s SSI account. There were things we needed to discuss from time to time. Much of it has been learning how to remind myself that whatever he has to say does not reflect on me, it only reflects on him. There’s been [a lot of growth](https://www.btr.org/treatment-for-divorce/) this year. My friends and my family have all commented that I seem so much happier. I’m doing so much better. ## Challenges Of Education & Work **Lorelai:** And I’m sure I will only continue to get better from here. It was scary, because I only have a little college. Every time I tried to work a job or go back to school, he didn’t like that. He would create problems. He would punish me when I tried to go to school or work. Or he would disappear and dump everything off on me and the kids. And my poor kids, it would be a choice between taking care of my kids and going to school. When a 14 year old is handling everything because my husband doesn’t come home for a month. So having no education and financial prospects was scary. But it was scarier to stay in the relationship. And that’s what it came down to. **Anne:** So if you could go back in time and talk to your younger self, what would you tell yourself? **Lorelai:** I would be telling myself that I was worthy of love. I have learned that your feelings really are your biggest indicator of emotional safety. And what I would tell my younger self is not to ignore those feelings, because they are crucial. When you get a funny feeling about somebody, that is legitimate. That is your cue. God has given you the feelings to tell you about things that you can’t know. Like there are so many things that you don’t know about people. And there’s no way to know sometimes, and feelings are how you know. So no that you know it’s abuse, how are you feeling? ## Importance Of Feelings **Lorelai:** So real love is a feeling that you can identify, and fear is a feeling you can identify. And uneasiness is a feeling that you can identify. I would go back and talk about how feelings are important, and how we are all valuable and lovable. I believe that for me personally, I wouldn’t have been so willing to swallow his nonsense about how it was me. If I had known how important it was to trust my own feelings. I didn’t trust myself. I didn’t know that I could trust myself. **Anne:** And we’ve all been there. We’ve all been there, where the things we’ve learned now have opened our eyes. I’m so grateful that you found Betrayal Trauma Recovery. And found a place where you could get the words for what was happening to you and feel validated. **Lorelai:** Yes, it was definitely put in my path. At the appropriate time, exactly when I was ready. **Anne:** Sometimes I worry that women find Betrayal Trauma Recovery, and they’re not ready to go there. And they think, no, my husband’s not abusive. This is just a pornography issue. Or this is just infidelity. Those Betrayal Trauma Recovery people, they’re a little too intense. What would you say to them? **Lorelai:** That’s exactly where I started. I found it. It didn’t feel like my problem exactly until I realized they all felt the same way I did. And maybe the problem was bigger than I thought, and Betrayal Trauma Recovery covers more than just the exploitative material and cheating issue. I mean, that’s a big indicator. It’s a very common indicator, but it is not the only indicator. ## Respect & Human Dignity **Lorelai:** And the reality is that the underlying cause is lack of respect, lack of interest in another person. The person you’re supposed to care the most about, your wife. And that’s what Betrayal Trauma Recovery addresses. All of us feel like we’re not getting the respect we deserve or the love we need. We’re human beings. We should be treated like human beings, not objects. That’s what it comes down to. **Anne:** Lorelai, thank you so much for coming on today’s episode. And talking about finding your realization that you are experiencing abuse. **Lorelai:** I appreciate you taking the opportunity to talk with me, and I hope anyone who needs to hear this can hear it and start working to get safe. **Anne:** Thank you. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [50 Things You Need To Know About Betrayal Trauma In A Relationship](https://www.btr.org/betrayal-trauma-in-a-relationship/) **Published:** August 16, 2022 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** If you're experiencing betrayal trauma in a relationship, here are 50 things to know. **Content:** If you’re experiencing betrayal trauma in a relationship, here’s a list of 50 things you need to know. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take this [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). This A-Z Betrayal Trauma Glossary is intended to help women learn everything they need to know about betrayal trauma in a relationship: what caused it and what to do next. If you need live support, [attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session](/group/). ![What is the Betrayal Trauma Cycle](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/what-is-the-betrayal-trauma-cycle.webp "What is the Betrayal Trauma Cycle")## **Abuse** A way of thinking that deems exploitation of another person acceptable. The aim of abuse is control and exploitation. Abuse is not just physical assault. Abusers use tactics that impact emotional, psychological, spiritual, sexual, and financial well-being. The results are devastating and severe to his wife, as well as any children in the home. Emotional and psychological abuse are devastating with severe consequences to women and children. Women in non-physical abusive relationships are often so manipulated, they don’t even know their husband is emotionally or psychologically abusive. Abusive people don’t lose control. They try to assert control through lies, manipulation, anger, sexual coercion, marital rape, physical intimidation or violence. Pornography use is emotional and sexual abuse, even if the pornography user identifies himself as an “addict”. ![Betrayal Trauma in Relationships](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/betrayal-trauma-in-marriage.webp "Betrayal Trauma in My Relationship")## Abuse-by-Proxy (See “Parental Alienation”) When abusive men continue to terrorize and attempt to control victims using the family court system, by harming the children, and utilizing other unsafe people, this is abuse-by-proxy. It’s good for victims to notify authorities about emotional, psychological, physical, or sexual abuse. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take this [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). Depending on the state and local system, the *way* you report may be more effective if you report through the Domestic Violence Shelter in your area or if a doctor or teacher reports in. In some states, reporting may increase the danger for you, because they don’t take reports of emotional or psychological (or even physical or sexual abuse) seriously. We recommend taking [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](/livingfree/) will help you understand the safe strategies to use when beginning your journey to emotional safety. Abusers may manipulate others into extending their abuse (abuse-by-proxy) by: - Claiming “parental alienation” - Sabotaging shared children’s relationships with therapists, teachers, doctors, etc. - Refusing to co-parent in a healthy, constructive way - Inserting themselves into the victim’s personal life - Continuously bringing the victim to court - Threatening or actually involving CPS or law enforcement simply to terrorize the victim - Attempting to convince (gaslight) the children that the victimized parent is unhealthy, abusive, and/or in any way a less desirable parent than the abuser - Neglecting the basic emotional and physical needs of the children ![What is Betrayal Trauma in Relationships](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/betrayal-trauma-in-relationships.webp "Betrayal Trauma in Relationships")## **Abusive Patterns** Abusers skillfully keep their victims in (a [cycle](/covert-emotional-abuse/)) patterns of emotional, social, and psychological entrapments. That make escape seem impossible and the abuse difficult to detect. These patterns can include the following phases: - **Manipulation (psychological and emotional abuse)** – attentive, kind, helpful, apologetic, promises to seek help, admits there is a problem in the relationship - **Tension (psychological and emotional abuse)** – any behavior from the victim that the abuser sees as offensive. Including the partner asking the abuser to seek treatment for the abuse he admitted to when he used manipulative kindness. This creates resentment, which builds up - **Overt abuse** – physical (punching walls, screaming in your face), sexual (pornography use, soliciting prostitutes, sexting), verbal (name calling, avoiding questions), emotional (manipulating emotions), psychological (gaslighting, lying), financial, spiritual - **Denial (psychological abuse)**– gaslighting; minimizing; victim-blaming; bold-faced lying; turning friends and family against the victim Not all abusive episodes go through these phases. For example, lies to deceive are ongoing, and a form of coercive control over a wife. ![What is Betrayal Trauma in a Realationship](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/betrayal-trauma-in-a-relationship.webp "Betrayal Trauma in a Relationship")## **Accountable** Recognizing and accepting full responsibility for thoughts, feelings, perceptions, choices, etc., and the outcomes of those actions and choices. ## **Accountability** Taking responsibility for actions by acknowledging the abuse, working diligently to change behavior, and doing the incredibly hard work to make amends by continuous actions. An abuser’s wife and/or children are never responsible for any aspect of the abuser’s decisions or behaviors. She cannot cause, cure, or control it. Long-term accountability (current research indicates 3-5 years) *can* be a sign of change for the abuser. However, short-term bursts of accountability are manipulation used to trap the victim. ![Signs of Betrayal Trauma in a Relationship](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/betrayal-trauma-in-a-relationship-1.webp "Betrayal Trauma in a Relationship")## **Acting Out** Abusers who identify themselves as “sex addicts” “act out” when they commit infidelity against their wife whether with another living person, themselves (through masturbation), virtually, or through fantasy. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery , we see any acting out as abuse. ## **Addict Brain Or Addict Fog** In the CSAT community, Addict Brain/Fog refers to a period of emotional withdrawal or overt emotional or psychological abuse by the abuser, directed toward his partner and/or children. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we view withholding truth, affection, attention, and focus from his wife and/or children to use pornography or have an affair. As extremely destructive emotional and psychological abuse. ## **Attachment Therapy** This form of therapy causes secondary trauma to victims of abuse, because it blames the victim. The theory contends his abuse is due to attachment issues, so a healthy attachment could cure him. Marriage counseling and/or therapy are detrimental when abuse is present, because abuse renders someone too dangerous for attachment. So many people say [marriage is hard work](/marriage-is-hard-work/), but it’s not if you’re not married to an abuser. A victim who attempts to attach to an abuser will only end up being harmed. ![Betrayal Trama in My Marriage](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/betrayal-trauma-2.webp "Betrayal Trauma")## **Betrayal Trauma** Betrayal Trauma is the devastating result of a woman being abused by her husband’s infidelity. Including pornography use and the related lies, manipulation, gaslighting, emotional and psychological abuse, and sexual coercion. Many women want to [recover from betrayal trauma](/recover-from-betrayal-trauma/). Sufferers of Betrayal Trauma experience emotional, psychological, physical, and spiritual symptoms that disrupt daily life. Healing from Betrayal Trauma is possible only if she separates herself from abuse, and is surrounded by a strong, nurturing support system. ## **Blame-shifting** Transferring fault to another person to avoid accountability. Blaming another person for the abuse or compulsive sexual behaviors. For example, saying, “If you wouldn’t do \_\_\_\_, then I wouldn’t look at pornography/hire prostitutes/yell at you.” ## **Boundaries** Boundaries are the pathway to safety and the most powerful form of self-care. It is the most proactive action a victim can take. Boundaries are essential to healing; they enable women to safely care for themselves, because they are safely removed from abuse. Boundaries are not words. They are ***actions*** to keep a woman safe. They do not need to be stated to take action. ![Identifying Betrayal Trauma in My Marriage](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/betrayal-trauma-in-my-marriage.webp "Betrayal Trauma in My Marriage")## **CSAT** A [Certified Sex Addiction Therapist](/csat-therapist-near-me/). While CSATs seemed to be the only group available to help victims of sexual coercion. In terms of their husband’s pornography use or infidelity. CSATs are not trained adequately to clearly see the abuse patterns deployed by abusers. *We do not recommend that emotional & psychological abuse victims go to a CSAT or get their husband to go. Instead, attend a [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session.](/group/)* ## **Check-in** A practice recommended by CSATS, other pornography addiction professionals, and clergy. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery we don’t recommend checking in with a psychological abuser about his abuse, whether in person, over the phone, or in writing, since it only serves as an opportunity for the abuser to manipulate his victim. ## **Coach** Betrayal Trauma Recovery’s coaches provide professional support and offer insight, validation, and direction for wives of pornography users and sex addicts. All of our coaches have been through it, are trained by BTR.ORG, and are certified. ## **Codependency** A label sometimes put on victims of abuse to encourage taking some level of responsibility for the situation. It doesn’t [recognize victim blaming](/how-to-recognize-victim-blaming/). This model is false and negates the reality of abuse. ![Betrayal Trauma in My Relationship Signs](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/betrayal-trauma-in-my-relationship.webp "Betrayal Trauma in My Relationship")## **Crazy-Making** See Gaslighting. ## **Detachment** Detachment occurs when the wife of an abuser removes herself emotionally from the devastation of the abuser’s choices. Often, this takes place once she has separated from him, and the manufactured relational tethers have begun to disintegrate. ## **Discovery** When a husband’s previously undisclosed sexually perverse behavior is discovered. That may mean [husband is taking advantage of me](/husband-is-taking-advantage-of-me/). This is most often a traumatic, shocking, and/or sometimes dangerous event for the woman. It can be discovered without any warning, or it may be suspected and D-Day (Discovery Day) confirms it. D-day is traumatic. The woman’s sense of reality is shattered, and often experiences distorted feelings of guilt, blame, confusion, intense fear, nightmares, despair, insomnia, etc. This is usually the point at which she discovers some abuse, and she is usually shocked to discover that she’s been a victim of abuse for years without knowing it. See Trauma for more details. ## **Drama Triangle** The Drama Triangle is a psychological theory often presented to couples in troubled relationships. The application of this theory blames both parties. However, in the abusive marriage, there is no Drama Triangle: there is simply an abuser and his victim. The abuser will use all three roles in the Drama Triangle (victim, rescuer, and persecutor) to control and harm his wife. When she reacts to his abuse, he labels her and/or poorly trained “professionals” as any of those three roles (victim, rescuer, or persecutor), when in reality, she’s simply an abuse victim trying to survive. Using the Drama Triangle to describe the relational dynamics of an abusive marriage is like trying to diagnose cancer using a cheese grater. It simply makes no sense. ## **Emotional Abuse** Any behavior that harms the emotional well being of another. ## **Emotional Safety** A state in which a person can be open and vulnerable with another person. Several factors play into being emotionally safe. When a victim is being manipulated with kindness, she often feels emotionally safe, even though she isn’t. Emotional safety happens when you feel loved, adequate, and safe to share your feelings. Your husband sees you as an equal, worthy of his love and respect. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## **Emotional Affair** When your husband spends his emotional energy, time and attention on someone other than you, gaslighting you to protect his behavior. ## **Empathy** A powerful tool to connect with others, respect an individual’s situation, and sit with them in their pain, rather than trying to fix or lecture. When we feel empathy for another, we acknowledge and/or validate their pain as we place ourselves in their situation. Empathy is the ability to recognize and respond to another’s pain, taking responsibility for your part in causing that pain (only if appropriate). Empathy can also be a torturous tool in the arsenal of an abusive man, used to tell his wife that she is not empathetic if she does not condone his behavior. Or if she is hurt by the things he did in “the past”, even if the past wasn’t very long ago at all or he’s still doing it. ## **Enable** To enable is to give someone permission to continue doing something. Those who do not immediately support and believe the victim are, accidentally or intentionally, enabling the abuser. ## **Fantasy/Fantasizing** The practice of using stored images of sexually perverse activities in his mind involving other people, pornography, movies, or made up scenarios. Including his own wife or children, resulting in sexual pleasure or arousal with or without masturbation. ## **Faulty Core Beliefs** Deeply held beliefs that are not true. For example, we may have come to believe early in our life that we need to earn love, are unlovable, or somehow caused this trauma and pain ourselves. Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coaches are trained to help you rediscover your self-worth. ## **Fight, Flight, Freeze, or Fawn** Common ways victims respond to abuse in an effort to survive. A natural, totally normal way to respond when our physical, mental, or emotional safety is threatened—or when we perceive that our safety is threatened. Physically, we might experience rapid heart beating, rapid breathing, trembling, becoming paralyzed with fear, etc. Our body is literally reacting to a threat and goes into a type of survival mode. ## **Gaslighting** A tool using lies by abusers to harm their victims. They psychologically manipulate to distort reality, causing a feeling of craziness, also referred to as crazy-making.https://www.btr.org/how-to-recognize-victim-blaming/ ## **Grief** A feeling of profound sadness and loss. After discovery, the woman experiences stages of grief due to the fact that the world she lived in is essentially gone and replace with something irrecognizable. To fully heal, a traumatized woman must allow herself to grieve. Through her grief, a victim of abuse can find ways to grow. ## **Gut/Intuition** Abusers seek to silence the inner voice of their victims, also called the gut, or intuition. The inner voice that warns victims when something isn’t quite right. Listen to that voice: it will tell you when you are in physical, emotional, psychological, or sexual danger. Research has shown that the intuition of women in abusive relationships is almost always correct. ## **Honoring Emotions** Women honor their emotions when they recognize, name, and respond to those emotions as they occur. Women in abusive relationships may have a difficult time naming or even expressing emotions due to the type of coercive control they experience. Self-validation is key to successful emotional honoring and mitigating emotional denial. That may lead to a lack of safety. It occurs by recognizing that what we feel is real. And to be willing to learn from the emotion, rather than pushing it down to avoid the pain. We can honor other’s emotions by respecting that our life and emotional and psychological safety are our responsibility. And we need to take action to protect ourselves. ## **Infidelity** Behavior or circumstance when a husband is unfaithful, undisclosed sexual behaviors, including pornography use, masturbation, fantasizing, sex with others, and emotional affairs constitute infidelity and are therefore abuse. ## **Lust** An intense desire to satisfy physical appetite. A form of infidelity, if directed towards a person outside of an exclusive relationship, such as marriage. Sexual abuse occurs in marriage and committed relationships when the abuser treats his wife like an object to satisfy his sexual desires. ## **Manufactured Emotional Tether** As part of the abuse pattern cycle, the abuser comforts his wife after a period of excruciating emotional/psychological/sexual/physical abuse. And the comforting and promises, often including intense sexual “intimacy”, culminate in an emotional tether, trapping the victim. Every time the cycle reoccurs, the manufactured tether gets stronger. While an abuser may claim he feels “close” to his partner, he is deceptively using/misrepresenting the idea of “closeness”. One cannot be “close” or “intimate” with someone they are abusing. The manufactured tether creates a false deceptive relational experience for the victim, entrapping her in the coercive tactics of the abuser. Generally, the manufactured tether cannot be broken without a period of separation. ## **Minimizing** Abusers who use emotional abuse, pornography, emotional affairs, sexting, etc, minimize their behaviors by: - **Lying:** denying pornography use when you know he’s using. - **Justifying:** “Guys do pornography all the time, what’s your problem?” Or “it was just pornography, not an actual affair.” - **Rationalizing**: “It just popped up on my screen.” - **Blame-shifting:** “I turned to pornography/affair because you don’t meet my sexual needs.” ## **Multi-Dimensional Partner Trauma Model** The framework used by so-called betrayal trauma specialists, namely therapists and coaches. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we have observed that this model does not address pornography, lies about pornography use, etc. as abuse. ## **Narcissistic Behaviors** Patterns of behavior that may include self-centeredness, an apparent, desperate need for attention, refusal to offer empathy, or grandiose ideas of self. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we don’t diagnose because we are not therapists. Even if we were, abuse is not in the DSM. However, we help women recognize the patterns of behavior commonly deployed by abusive men, most exhibit narcissistic traits. ## **No Contact** A boundary that eliminates contact between the abuser and the victim. It can include blocking phone calls, texts and emails. To learn more about strategies for eliminating contact with abusers, enroll in the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](/livingfree/). ## **Objectify** Any activity that degrades other human beings to the status of an object. This includes activities of pornography, strip club attendance, sexual behaviors with prostitution, sex with self, affairs, fantasizing, identifying people by body parts and appearance, rather than personality traits and strengths. ## **Parental Alienation** The Parental Alienation Movement is a widespread, abuser-friendly movement that enables abusers to control victims and children. And can force children to undergo [reunification therapy](/what-you-need-to-know-about-reunification-therapy/). The basis of the Parental Alienation theory is that children of abusive men should be forced to spend time with their abusive fathers, *especially* if they are afraid of their father or prefer their mother. Abusers claim victims “alienate” the children from them, but the reality is that children of abusers simply prefer the non-abusive parent. When abusers claim “parental alienation” and courts generally side with the abusers. Victims and their children are re-traumatized via the secondary abuse from the courts. This is known as abuse-by-proxy. ## **Primary Attachment** Attachment to a person in your life who is a significant source of comfort and assistance i.e. parent, caregiver or spouse. ## **Protective Action** When victims display behaviors that are not consistent with their character due to the abuse, they may be taking protective action. Betrayal Trauma Recovery uses this term instead of “reactive” or “mutual” abuse. We also call this Resistance to Abuse. ## **Post-Separation Abuse** When an abuser continues to terrorize and/or attempt to control the victim after separation and/or divorce. The victim may need to [fight a narcissist for custody](/fighting-a-narcissist-for-custody/). The spectrum of post-separation abuse is wide, but can include: - Continued gaslighting, manipulation, lies, and coercion - Refusal to meet the children’s physical and emotional needs during their parenting time - Financial abuse through continuous litigation - Defamation - Abuse-by-proxy - Voyeurism - Threats - Stalking - Physical violence ## **Pornography** Any material, written or visual, used to arouse sexual feelings in a person. It is also used to satisfy sexual desires and is a tool used to degrade humans into sexual objects. Furthermore, pornographic material is often created using underage girls and women sold into sex slavery. To support the pornography industry is to support child sex slavery/sex trafficking. and all [types of exploitation](/types-of-exploitation/). At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we firmly stand behind the truth that all human beings who view pornography are choosing to support an industry that fuels modern day child slavery. We find this despicable. Likewise, we do not parse out pornography to levels such as soft or hard. Any image, digital, print or visualized used in secret for personal satisfaction is abusive to the marriage relationship. And those forced to participate in its making. ## **Rationalizing** Attempting to justify or explain a behavior to make it appear logical. For example, “I didn’t do anything wrong; it just popped up on my screen.” Or “I wouldn’t yell at you if you didn’t get so crazy.” Any attempt to justify his behaviors based on circumstance or on the behaviors/feelings of the abuser’s partner and/or children is rationalizing and is abusive. ## **Recovery (For Victims)** Healthy, recovered women have chosen to seek safety from an abusive relationship. They know that they are not the problem. ## **Recovery (For Abusers)** At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we don’t believe a man needs a program to stop being abusive. He just needs to start being honest, treat his wife as an equal, take her concerns seriously, stop trying to control outcomes, etc. Actually, he needs to change his character through consistent, healthy behaviors over time. Any one can do this if they choose. Healthy, recovered men have not been abusive for at least 3-5 years, which includes being completely faithful to their wife if married, having dedicated their lives to living amends, and contributing in a healthy way to a peaceful society. If their wife pursued divorce, then the man in recovery from abuse happily pays child support and alimony. He is supportive in whatever way his ex-wife has requested, and is supportive of her boundaries. When/if she decides to engage in a new marriage, he continues these supportive behaviors. Without relapsing into abusive behaviors toward his ex-wife and/or children. ## **Relapse** A term used in the so called “sex addiction” community to describe abuse. ## **Safety & Truth-Seeking Behaviors** Abusers often throw their victims under the bus by mislabeling their safety seeking and truth seeking behaviors as “policing”, “controlling”, or “wearing the pants”. Safety seeking and truth seeking behavior by a victim is a natural, normal healthy response to abuse. Examples of safety and truth-seeking behaviors include: putting filters on devices, checking phone, tablet, and computer histories, using GPS tracking to monitor where he is going, etc. When a victim of abuse knows something is wrong, she’s going to naturally try to figure it out – this is healthy. Sometimes this truth seeking behavior actually gets in the way of seeking safety. Learn more about this in [The Living Free Workshop.](/livingfree/ "The Living Free Workshop.") ## **Self-Care** Tools to help in the healing process. In betrayal trauma, self-care refers to more than just getting a pedicure and crying on the shoulder of a trusted friend. Self-care is a choice a woman makes to learn to love herself. A woman using self-care understands that no one can take better care of herself than she can. It is one of the most loving things she can do for herself. Examples may include but are not limited to: - Giving herself permission to sleep when tired - Using paper plates - [Attending a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session ](/group/) - Journaling - Physically taking care of herself - Spending time in nature - Practicing living in the moment (mindfulness and/or meditation) - Expressing gratitude ## **Shame** Everyone feels shame from time to time, especially when they violate widely regarded social norms. Contrary to popular belief, shame does not cause addiction or abuse. All people feel shame, but not everyone chooses to be unfaithful or abuse someone. For example, some people choose to call a friend, eat ice cream, or go for a jog. ## **Shero** The preferred term at Betrayal Trauma Recovery for a woman who has chosen to seek safety from an abusive relationship. ## **Slip** Like the term “relapse,” a slip is a reference used in the so-called “sex addiction” community to describe abuse without saying the word abuse. ## **Sober/Sobriety** A term used in the “sex addiction” community for the period where compulsive sexual behavior has stopped. Because they don’t call it abuse, they don’t factor in healthy non-abusive behavior when they talk about sobriety from “pornography addiction”. ## **STBX** Soon-to-be ex-husband. ## **Trauma** Abuse creates deep wounds. Trauma is the resulting emotional state created by the wounds. Betrayal trauma has a multi-dimensional impact, with emotional, physical, spiritual, and financial effects. When a woman discovers the reality of her situation, her husband is abusive. She needs emotional and psychological safety before she can begin healing. And learn how to [get back to herself after emotional abuse](/how-to-get-back-to-yourself-after-emotional-abuse/). Traumatized women often experience a wide range of thoughts and emotions, and respond to abuse in different ways. It is crucial to find help and support as soon as possible. At [Betrayal Trauma Recovery, our coaches](https://www.btr.org/) personally experienced abuse and trauma in their relationships. With specialized abuse training, our team of coaches help women navigate their situation and begin to make their way to safety. We have the [best support for betrayal trauma](/best-support-for-betrayal-trauma/). ## **Trigger** A trigger is an experience that causes a person to recall a traumatic memory. It will throw the person experiencing it back into the emotions of the initial traumatic event, often producing additional trauma responses. After betrayal, symptoms such as confusion, sadness, grief, anger, despair, and resentment may manifest. Sometimes the trigger can be noticed, like being yelled at by someone, and sometimes it sneaks up and sabotages walking down an aisle at the grocery store as you’re working towards [post traumatic growth](https://www.btr.org/treatment-for-divorce/). It is important to be aware that what others may call a trigger is actually just a normal response to experiencing abuse in real time. If you are triggered, rather than assume the danger has passed, assess the situation to see if emotional and psychological abuse is currently harming you. ## **Vulnerability** Not something to share with an abuser. Sharing emotions and experiences with safe people is key to beginning the journey to safety. Learn more about this by enrolling in the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](/livingfree/). ## **White-Knuckling** A term used in the “sex addiction” community to identify a “struggle” with behavior or emotional management that’s really just abuse. Most often used in the past-tense to describe his state of being before he re-engaged in abusive behaviors. Which we know at Betrayal Trauma Recovery is simply a manipulation stage of managing his image and role playing healthy behaviors to groom his victim. ## **12 Step** A term for self-improvement programs based on the twelve steps of Alcoholics Anonymous. Trauma research indicates that self-improvement programs, like [12-step for wives of addicts](/12-step-for-wives-of-addicts/), are destructive to traumatized women. A woman must be completely safe from abuse before entering into any type of self-improvement program. Often, once she is safe from abuse, she finds that the “defects” of character are simply the left over voice of the abuser in her own head. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast **Tags:** emotional abuse, How Do I Set Boundaries --- ### [Treating Body Image Issues After Betrayal: How To Heal](https://www.btr.org/treating-body-image-issues-after-betrayal/) **Published:** October 11, 2022 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Most women who experience betrayal feel like their appearance had something to do with it. Here's why that's not true. **Content:** After betrayal, many women wonder if he would have stayed faithful if they had improved their appearance. But that’s not true. Here’s how treating body image issues after betrayal can help women move forward. ## Why Does Betrayal Cause Body Image Issues? Betrayal attacks a woman’s sense of self-worth, affecting her physically, emotionally, and spiritually. These types of betrayal will inevitably injure a woman and cause body image issues that are no fault of her own: - A husband’s use of inappropriate media - Emotional, physical, or virtual affairs - Verbal and emotional abuse ## How Betrayal Can Cause Body Image Issues Part of betrayal is often emotional abuse, which is the main cause of body image issues. To discover if he’s using any one of these 19 different types of emotional abuse tactics, take our [free emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ## 3 Things About Body Image Related to Betrayal ### 1. Betrayal Happens to Every Type of Woman When you’re healing from your husband’s betrayal, it’s easy to believe his lies that you could have done something to prevent it. hat’s not true. Even stunning actresses, musicians, and supermodels have faced betrayal. Why? Because cheating isn’t a result of how attractive, strong or amazing you are. Infidelity is a choice that a man makes because he lacks care and respect for his partner. That’s it. ![What to Do when Having a Bad Body Image Day](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/what-to-do-when-having-a-bad-body-image-day.webp "What to Do when Having a Bad Body Image Day")## 2. When You’re Feeling Sad About Your Body Focus on Healing The Trauma Sometimes it’s about more than just your reflection. Healing from betrayal often brings flashbacks of hurtful things he may have said or done. It’s natural for those experiences to resurface. Here are some ways to refocus on the truth: - **Breathe and Acknowledge Your Feelings** Take a moment to ground yourself. Deep breaths can help calm the emotional storm. Then, instead of pushing feelings aside, acknowledge them. “I feel sad/shaken/hurt about X,” and remind yourself that it’s okay to feel this way. [The betrayal trauma meditations](/clarity/) in my workshop help women work through the emotional pain for infidelity. - **Repeat Affirmations That Heal** Counter the negative thoughts with kind ones. Repeat phrases like, “My worth isn’t defined by anyone else’s actions,” or “I am strong, valuable, and healing.” - **Protect Yourself from Flashbacks** If flashbacks of cruel comments or situations are overwhelming, use meditation or grounding techniques like wrapping yourself in a blanket, holding an object in your hand, or listening to calming music. These can help bring you back to the present and remind you that you’re beautiful just the way you are. - **Prioritize Rest** Healing is exhausting work, and that’s okay. Your mind and body need rest. Take a nap, go to bed early, or enjoy a quiet moment with tea—even just 10 minutes to yourself can help. If trauma from betrayal has left you lost or feeling depressed about your body, learning more about this type of abuse can help you have confidence. Listen to the [Free Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast](https://www.btr.org/podcast/). ## 3. You Need Support When Betrayal Has Damaged Your Self Image You don’t have to tackle this alone. Nobody should handle the fallout of betrayal by themselves. There’s something remarkably healing about connecting with others who’ve been through similar experiences. Women with experience with this can offer empathy, advice, or even just an ear when you need it most. On bad body image days, lean on support systems to lift you back up. Attend a [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session](https://www.btr.org/group/) to connect with women who truly understand betrayal trauma and how it affects our body image. Just share how you’re feeling. You don’t need to have all the answers or explain everything. A simple “Hey, I’m having a tough day” is enough to start to feel better. Having a supportive network, whether it’s friends, family, or a professional community, can make all the difference. ## Transcript: Does Betrayal Cause Body Image Issues? **Anne:** I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re going to call her Katherine. And then I’m also interviewing Courtney who runs Bra Fittings by Court and helps women who have been traumatized in this way heal from their body image issues. I’m going to interview Katherine first. She actually wrote down how her husband’s betrayal affected the way she viewed her body image. Welcome, Katherine. How did your husband’s betrayal affect your body image? **Katherine:** In my own life comparison has been something I’ve struggled with. For a while, it was difficult for me to be in public, either with my husband or without him. When I would see attractive women in public, I felt incredibly traumatized. It really was difficult for me to go out into public for a while and watch TV because I just felt like I didn’t measure up. ## Impact of Betrayal on Body Image Then another area body image affect me my husband and I began to become intimate again, I was so traumatized and felt so negative about my body. The messages I told myself fall into two categories: I’m too much or I’m not enough, like I’m too big, too small, too flabby, too old, too much cellulite, too tall, too short, I’m not enough, I’m not pretty enough, I’m not thin enough. Areas in my life that I felt confident in were attacked and things that people said to me , my husbands or other people were an additional wound on top of that. It’s an ongoing battle with body image, but I’ve also made a lot of progress Becoming aware of my negative body talk that often is just this dialogue that goes on in my head that I’m not even aware of and really beginning to work on gaining confidence. ## Body Image History When I was in a middle school, I was not in the popular crowd. I was shy and reserved and quiet, and I just didn’t quite fit in. One of the popular boys who had this little entourage of cronies that followed him around, he decided one day that he needed a new girlfriend. And so he sent one of his little cronies to me. And another girl, separately, saying that this popular boy was going to decide between the two of us and choose a new girlfriend. He didn’t ask me if I wanted to be, he just assumed that I would just willingly love this great honor, right? And so, this crony told me, he said, I’ll come back to you in a couple days after he’s made his decision. And so, honestly, I truly did not want to be his girlfriend because I was quiet and shy and that just freaked me out. But I was just so flattered that somebody had noticed me. So about two days later, he came back and he said, well, he’s made a decision. He’s chosen her over you. And part of me was so relieved because I didn’t want to be his girlfriend. But the next thing he said to me was he chose her because she has bigger boobs. And right there in that moment, I saw her as more valuable than me. And then, the sad thing that I did, Anne, is I actually said out loud to him, That’s okay. I understand. I thoughts she was more valuable because of her breast size and I carried that wound for years and years and years. ## When My Body Image Started to Heal And one of my really good friends had a mastectomy from breast cancer and she was very open about her procedure and I was visiting her one day and she asked me if I wanted to see her scars. That was a real holy moment for me. First of all, that my friend would invite me into that pain. To see those scars, but in that moment of seeing that oh my goodness I was like, oh I need to be so grateful not just for that part of my body, but for all of my body So that was in a profound Impact on me. So I really began That grateful journey of being thankful for my body and I had for years bought the add a cup size bras. I’m not condemning those bras for anyone out there, but for me personally my own personal journey I got to a point where I threw those all away That was a huge step of healing to realize that I am not going to use these for me personally That was a real confirmation that I would had made progress in that area and then I really was truly Being grateful for the body that I have. ## How Running Helped Me Heal Another area of body image that I’ve struggled with is my legs, and I’m a runner. I love to go for a run in the morning, but I was so critical of these lets that took me for a run. And then one day, I was getting out of my car in a parking lot and I see a woman and three or four kids getting out of a car and they’re helping her with the wheelchair. And she gets out and slides into the wheelchair and she has only one leg. Oh, and again, I’m standing there thinking, you know what? I just went running and I’m so critical of my legs. This woman would just love to have my legs that have cellulite. So another step of realizing to be grateful. And then would you believe, and like probably a year and a half later, I’m at the same parking lot. It was Target. I get out of my car. I see that same woman. Getting out of her car again, and this time both of her legs are gone. And, oh my goodness. I’m like, how can I ever complain about my legs again? I would get out of the shower and I would see my legs in the mirror. I appreciate my legs. They have served me well. I just went for a run this morning. Believable affirmations really helped me **Anne:** Yeah, that story reminds me of my son. ## Teaching Body Positivity to Children We get a pass to an amusement park and a water park near our home. It’s like five minutes away from where we live. And he said to me one day, Mom, I don’t like going to this water park because so many of the women are in bikinis, and I have to look at them, and I feel uncomfortable. I don’t want to stop doing things because there’s people there in swimming suits. I want my kids to be able to go places and enjoy things. He specifically said, they wear these bikinis that show their stomachs. And I said, what do you think their stomachs are for? He was like, what do you mean? And I said, why does a woman have a stomach? What would happen if a woman didn’t have a stomach?” And he was like, “Oh, well, she wouldn’t be able to eat.” And I said, “Yeah, what are her legs for? What would a woman be without legs?” And he’s like, “She couldn’t walk.” “And what about their arms? What are their arms for? So when you see a woman in a swimsuit, I don’t want you to think that the reason she has a stomach is for you to look at it. The reason she has a stomach is so that she can eat and live.” ## Understanding Bad Body Image Days He was like, “Mom, that makes so much sense.” This is a good lesson we need to teach our sons. The reason women have body parts is for the woman. You have legs so that you can walk, so that you can run, that’s why you have arms and a stomach. That’s why you have a head. You do not have a body. Just so people can look at it. Your body is for you. **Katherine:** That is so powerful and I think that really helps us to not objectify women. We as women can sometimes objectify other women as well. That’s powerful. ## Seeing Beyond Outward Appearance **Anne:** So this question follows that idea. How can we begin to see ourselves as more than just our outward appearance? **Katherine:** That holds the key to our stories, because we age! But I believe that we become more beautiful as we age. Our wisdom, our life experience, confidence, accepting ourselves, becoming less judgmental, life experience and how that changes us. I just believe that as we age, we become a more beautiful person. You had your mom on the podcast and I’ve never seen your mom or met your mother. But what a beautiful person she encountered in the podcast, full of wisdom, kindness and compassion. That’s what true beauty is. ## Emotional Abuse and Self-Worth **Anne:** Absolutely.One of the most intense emotional abuse episodes that happened with me was when my ex told me very calmly that he had been lying to me every time he said I was beautiful. He said he couldn’t lie anymore, and that he never thought I was beautiful. Of course this kind of [trauma would affect your sex drive](https://www.btr.org/lack-of-intimacy-in-marriage/ "trauma would affect your sex drive"). And I said to him, “That’s not true. I am beautiful. You’re full of crap.” And he said, “I just mean your personality makes you ugly.” And that hurt more than anything, because it was like, so you think I’m cute physically, but you really genuinely hate me. That’s basically what he was saying. Things took a turn after that. I was like, if he refuses to acknowledge in any way, shape, or form that he appreciates me as a human being, he’s basically saying your personality, your wisdom, your strength. I don’t like anything about you. And I think he said it on purpose to hurt me and never took it back. Never acknowledged it happened. And then when I told other people he had said that, he gaslit me and said, “No, that’s not what happened. That’s not what I said. That’s not what it meant.” And I was like, “That’s exactly what you said and exactly what you meant.” I am beautiful. And if you don’t think I’m beautiful, you apparently hate your wife. ## Body as a Container for Gifts **Katherine:** Our bodies are really a container for our EQ, our emotional intelligence, our IQ, which is our intelligence, our GQ, which is our gut and our intuition, which as betrayed women has been so damaged, right? Seeing our bodies as vehicles of takes us for a run. All of our gifts are expressed through our bodies. So if we play the piano or we’re an artist, an athlete. Our bodies is how we express our gifts. It’s our container. And then for women of faith our body is actually the container for God’s spirit. And if we can begin to believe how valuable God says we are. He calls our body, his temple, and he dwells in us. Wow. That to me is just so, so powerful. ## Affirmations and Self-Care I do a brain dump and write down the negative things I say to myself. And really grieve that. And then look at the if thens. If only I was thin, then my husband would love me. Or if only I looked like that model, then he would stop looking at this stuff. Change them to I am’s. Like, I am grateful for my legs because they have served me well. I’m going to cross out those old messages that I’ve written down, and I’m going to come up with new believable affirmations. If we are women of faith, I think scripture Is so powerful to see who god says we are like psalm 139 It’s a beautiful passage that talks about how we’re fearfully and wonderfully made Other scripture talks about where the apple of his eye that he sings over us that were his beloved So that’s a huge piece of it for me. There’s nobody else like me. So be me. And that’s what I say. Be yourself because everyone else is taken. Anne: In you talking about this, it’s bringing up so many issues that I have, and I’ve always had really solid body image. But what I doubted was my personality . ## Betrayal Affects All Women A man said to me, you are the ideal physical person. Do you think if I was your boyfriend that your personality might change? Then I remember a few other times a man said you’re beautiful physically, but like your personality kind of ruins it. This just [feels so off, meaning](https://www.btr.org/feel-off-meaning/ "feels so off, meaning") why would this be okay? I’m grateful for what you shared. It made me think about where I stand and why self-care feels so hard for me. I remember shopping with my mother-in-law before a speaking event. She wanted me to wear something flashy, but I chose a simple outfit instead. And she said, why it’s so plain. And I said, because I don’t want my outfit to take away from my personality. I want my personality to be the thing that shines through. Now I see it as manipulation. ## Victim Blaming and Manipulation So you wrote down a bunch of this type of emotional abuse in the form of victim blaming and how you experienced it. Why do you think when it comes to betrayal, the men who perpetrate the betrayal use victim blaming as a way to manipulate their victims. **Katherine:** Whenever they step outside the marriage and betray us, they’re so angry at us. In order to justify it , they have to see us as bad. They take a grain of truth and just blow it up into a mountain of how horrible we are. And attack our strengths and exploit our weaknesses. attacked our body image. **Anne:** Yes, that is exactly what happens. **Katherine:** He lies so that’s victim blaming. The other area is others. And this can be friends, family, clergy, therapists. They’re uneducated in betrayal trauma. Maybe they still take the old codependency model and they’re trying to place that on you, or They think that betrayal is really about sex when it’s really not. Years ago, that was me. I didn’t understand what betrayal trauma was. At the time, um, I was being betrayed. In fact, one friend of mine, her husband left her, and another friend said, “She wouldn’t have it with him, what else was he going to do?” I said, “Yeah, as women, we need to have it with our husbands.” I mean, that was me. So when I hear this victim blaming, it makes me angry, but I also realized they’re not educated yet. So, I can have a little sympathy for them, but it’s still a maddening, especially when you’re on the receiving end. ## When Betrayal Affects Our Body Image It might be actually ourselves. about our body image This is one that sometimes we’re not even aware of. When a woman is in an emotionally abusive relationship for a long time, she actually can begin to see herself through the twisted and distorted lens of her abuser, her accuser, her husband. That’s gaslighting, where she begins to believe what others say what therapists are telling her And we blame ourselves and a huge part of healing is realizing that we are not to blame. our bodies are not to blame I would just shout that from the rooftops. There is absolutely no blame whatsoever on a woman when their husband is unfaithful. These men, they had integrity issues long before they ever met us . So it wouldn’t have matter who they married. It’s not about us. ## DARVO and MARVO Tactics **Katherine:** If you’re around BTR very long at all, you will hear one of the coaches and one of the women in the groups talk about the acronym DARVO. And that stands for Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim Offender. It’s a tactic that our abusers can use against us. And it is so strange. Anne, I almost feel like these men go to Darvo school or something, because it is so common. You just hear it over and over again. So first they deny they’ve done anything wrong. Then they attack you, and then they make themselves the victim because you have so offended them. It’s so easy to fall into that trap too, because they are so good at it. But I’ve kind of changed the DARVO into MARVO. And my MARVO stands for Minimize Avert Reverse Victim Offender. They might take a little bit of responsibility in this one, They’re going to minimize, Well, I shouldn’t have done that, but then they avert it right onto you, but you dot, dot, dot, dot, dot. And then you say, but you did this. Yes. I was wrong, but you dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, and they again still become the victim that you, and you are the offender. When we as women can, you become aware of when this is happening. ## Living Free Strategies to Heal Our Body Image Issues **Anne:** Yeah, you’re bringing up the strategies from [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). I want you to talk more about those later, but let’s go through that list of ways his betrayal affected your body image. **Katherine:** Yes, so you know when you go to the theme park and want to get on the roller coaster, and there’s that sign that says if you’re at risk for a heart attack, please do not get on this ride. Well, I just want a disclaimer here because Your blood pressure is going to rise when you hear these. This first one is an example of something that actually came from the therapist. He said to me So, tell me, how did you contribute to his infidelity? And to my husband. So where’s your list of things she’s done wrong? ## How His Blame Hurts Us So here’s the next one. You know, you can’t shame him or he’ll act out again. So you’re actually silenced. There’s that threat that you better not do that. You’re silenced from sharing your pain out of fear that they’ll act out again. And if they act out again, then they come back and say, well, it’s because you shamed me. So the next one came from clergy, let me just ask you, how often are you having it? Because you know, if a woman would just loosen up in the bedroom, make themselves available, be more adventurous, meet his needs, this kind of thing just wouldn’t happen. One pastor said if you don’t meet his needs every day, it’s like sending him to work with a loaded gun. **Anne:** WHAT?! **Katherine:** Yes! **Anne:** The pastor’s basically like saying, he’s an animal. You’re responsible for making sure he doesn’t harm people. That he can’t control himself. Like if people want to treat men like animals, then fine. But we hold them to a higher standard here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, I don’t know. We treat men like humans! ## His Words Damaged My View of Myself **Katherine:** Yes! Okay, so this one came from a therapist. So I think I figured out the problem here. We need to make you a safe person. If we can make you safe, he won’t lie. You can’t justify wrong behavior by someone else’s perceived wrong behavior, that never justifies a lie. So here’s one from the faith community, have you been praying for him? His integrity is your responsibility, because you haven’t prayed for him. This could come from anyone. Okay, so I really need to be honest with you here. This might be difficult to hear, but if you would just take better care of yourself, then he wouldn’t feel a need to look at that stuff. How could that not affect my body image okay. Here’s the next one from my husband. I could not tell you the truth because you’re so full of fear and worry that you would go off the deep end. You know, like you did last time. Another common one: I can’t tell you cause I didn’t want to hurt you. Who they’re really protecting is themselves. Cause if they were all about protecting you, they wouldn’t have acted out in the first place. Okay. This next one also came from my husband. I am working so hard on myself and you haven’t fill in the blank, forgiven me or trust me or respect me or appreciate me. I’ll just never be good enough for you. ## When He Betrays Us With Lies About Ourselves **Anne:** Poor abusers. We just expect them not to be abusive. It’s so, so mean of us. **Katherine:** The bar is really low when you want to think about it. You know, the bar is so low. Okay, this is a very wounding one because this one came from a friend Well, I’ll tell you one thing. I would never put up with that if he was my husband because on one hand they’re validating your pain and then the next hand they’re calling you a fool. **Anne:** Part of being able to identify this is knowing [how to recognize victim blaming.](https://www.btr.org/how-to-recognize-victim-blaming/ "how to recognize victim blaming.") And do you think it’s also a form of victim blaming because they’re saying it’s kind of your fault because you put up with it? **Katherine:** Yeah, I think it can be. Or, you know, you’ve put up with this so long and I’ve heard several women say this that they’ve shared with their friends and they’re just like I’ve never put up with that. How could you, you need to leave him instead of really helping them figure out what their next step is. So the last one you finally gained the courage to tell your story to somebody. ## Sharing Your Own Body Image Issues Can Help Other Women And you pour out your heart and you’re sitting there waiting to see What’s going to happen and they look at you and they go Well, it sounds to me like maybe you haven’t forgiven him boy when somebody throws it at you, oh, it’s so hurtful you have to grieve and you have to walk through This anger this righteous anger. **Anne:** Yeah, our anger really can help us. And that’s one of the things that the living free workshop covers. what strategies to use to keep ourselves safe from this type of victim blaming. Living free covers the fact that all women resist abuse in different ways. Can you talk about [Living Free](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). Did it help you realize the ways that you were resisting the abuse doing the best that you could, knowing what you knew at the time and considering the counsel and advice you were receiving. ## Knowing What to Do Next To Feel Better About Ourselves **Katherine:** I wanted him to believe and see me so badly. So I’d keep trying, maybe if I say it this way, or maybe if I say it that way, and you defend and you keep trying and trying and trying, and it just doesn’t work. It ends up into an argument. The other one, is the apology mode. And back to the example of the husband who says, you know, I’m working so hard and you don’t appreciate me. Okay. The apology mode is, Honey, I’m so sorry. You’re right. You are working hard. And yeah, maybe I do expect too much. And I really do appreciate you and thank you for doing all this hard work. So the conversation started with you going to them with a concern and it ends up with you being the one apologizing. So it educated me to walk away from his trap with dignity. **Anne**: Yeah, I cover all of the traps they’re going to use in the living free workshop. **Katherine:** Yes We’re just kind of falling into their trap. And when we begin to respond to our husbands in this new way, boy, they notice there’s a new woman in town. It really, truly does empower us and it gives us courage then to do it the next time. **Anne:** I am so glad. So many women find [The Living Free Strategies](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) to be life-changing. Cause it’s not like anything you’ve ever heard before. **Katherine:** It changed my life. ## Safe Community Helps Us See Our True Beauty Then another way I got grounded in truth was in the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups](https://www.btr.org/group/). In these sessions, it’s such an honor to spend time with these women. I believe betrayed women are some of the most beautiful, strong, persevering women on the face of the planet. It is amazing when we first come in to the group, maybe, you know, we have just discovered something and we come into the group and we are so traumatized and rightly so we’ve all been there, but to see the growth within just a few short weeks is really amazing to me. And I look at that and I look at my own personal story. It took me 10 years to discover what these women are learning at BTR in a matter of weeks. And so you can fast forward two, three, four weeks. You’ll have the same woman back in a group. And yes, she’s still traumatized. Yes. She’s learning the lingo She’s grounded in truth, working on boundaries. Supported and validated by the BTR Coaches. I literally see these women find their voice in a matter of weeks. And I look at my journey, and it was 10 years before I found BTR. It’s amazing to go from being distraught and traumatized, confused, scared, accused, misunderstood. ## Empowerment and Progress And a few weeks later, getting to a safer place emotionally with the help of a BTR coach, but it’s because I experienced that. A few weeks ago, one of the women in a sessions, after over 20 years of marriage, had finally set some really strong boundaries with her husband. And it wasn’t ending the way she wanted, but she was sticking to her truth. And said, after 20 years, BTR helped me have the courage. Several other women in [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/) were like, “Yes, BTR, BTR.” I mean, one woman even said, “I didn’t even know if I’d be alive if it wasn’t for BTR.” What Betrayal Trauma Recovery offers to betrayed women is amazing. **Anne:** It is. That makes me feel so honored and humbled to hear that because when I started this, it was just in an effort to make sense of what had happened to me when I couldn’t get help from other therapists, when I couldn’t get help from anywhere else. ## Making Progress Toward Healthy Body Image Women have been trying to get to safety for years, but because they were given the wrong information, they weren’t able to make any progress. They were just spinning their wheels. And all of our coaches here make it a safe space for women to start making their way to safety in a way that they’ve never attempted to before. **Katherine:** Yeah. And I tell you, knowledge is power. I believe courage is contagious. And when you get into group with these women, and maybe they’re a few steps ahead and you see the courage, it’s like, I think I can do that too. And it’s just so empowering. **Anne:** It is and the living free workshop is incredible and women are using those strategies to make progress. It’s just humbling to see so many women making progress. So, thank you so much for sharing your experience and thank you for coming on today’s episode. **Katherine:** Thank you so much. It was fun. It was an honor. ## When Betrayal Affects how You See Yourself **Anne**: Alright, Courtney, it’s your turn. I had an amazing experience with Courtney. She actually runs Bra Fittings by Court and when I was with my ex and I was being traumatized constantly, I never wanted to wear a bra. But since I am in this new stage of [self care after emotional abuse](/self-care-books-for-women/ "self care after emotional abuse"), I went to get a fitting by court and Courtney, I wanted to talk about that. So welcome Courtney. **Courtney:** Thanks. Thank you for having me on. ## When Betrayal Affects how You View Yourself **Anne:** Courtney runs bra fittings by court, an amazing service that she does to help women who are stressed out or need help with choosing bras. Tell me how you discovered that you have such an amazing talent for fitting women. **Courtney:** So when I was in college, I got a job at Nordstrom in the lingerie department. Little did I know that that job would literally change my life. I quickly found that fitting bras is more than selling brass. It’s a lot more complicated than that. There’s a lot emotion involved in it. It’s kind of a intimate process. You’re seeing women in their most vulnerable state their shirt off. I found that I was really good at helping women feel comfortable. Most women were never taught how bras should fit and that 99% of women are wearing the wrong size bra. And so I found that I was educating these women on how to dress their bodies and how to take care of their BOMs. I felt like I was giving back to the world. I felt like I was making a small difference in the world by helping women feel more confident and beautiful. This is my way to make a small difference in the world. **Anne:** I think you’re making a large difference. Like for me it made a huge difference. I had such a good time. We did have a good time. ## Treating Body Image Issues is A healing experience in many ways **Anne:** Getting undressed in front of you and having you put a bra on me was so healing in so many ways. So you now have a bra shop in your home called Bosom Friends. Yes, it’s a beautiful shop. Just being in there made me happy. The colors, there’s this big sign on the wall that says *you’re like really pretty* <laugh>. I thought, thank you. I really love this. How does helping women with their bra problems relate to self-care? **Courtney:** Most women are busy. They don’t have a lot of time. And so a lot of women hate going bra shopping, which I completely understand because a lot of places, places like Walmart, target, Kohl’s, those places don’t have a large range of sizes. So that’s why it’s harder for women. It’s really stressful. And if you’re already burdened emotionally going through trauma, that’s the last thing you wanna worry about is having to do research because you’re not guaranteed to get somebody to help you that knows what they’re doing. I recommend this some other places for people to go get fitted and they went and like that was an awful experience. And the reason why is because I feel like a lot of these places, those high turnover and there’s just not the experience that you need in a fitter that can really help people and understand how different styles of bras are gonna fit different women. Bra shopping is overwhelming because there’s so many different components to it. ## Healing Body Image Issues after Betrayal **Anne:** Well, I felt like I was being like, thank you, pampered by you. Like I’ve never felt like that when I went bra shopping. And the size that you fitted me in is completely different than any other size I’ve ever thought about. Like I didn’t think that was my size. **Courtney:** Do you want to tell them what size you were in and then what size you are now? **Anne:** Yeah, I don’t know what size I was in. So you were at 30. What size was I in? Okay, so let, let’s just talk about my bra issues my whole life. So I’ve always considered myself very small chested, which I liked. I’ve never felt like I wanted to be any bigger or anything, but I don’t fill the cup, right? And my straps always fall off. And just the thought of a bra just stressed me out. I, I have cursed the man who invented corsets, you know, way back in the day like why? Why have you done this to us? Anyway, the bra that Courtney fitted me with, and I don’t even wanna say it ’cause I don’t wanna make anyone feel bad, but I feel like it’s the perfect size. Like if you asked what is the most beautiful, perfect size you would be this. And that’s the one I’m wearing. It was a 32 double D like that is like amazing. Like who? Who has that perfect size? And now I’m like, oh, I wrote in my gratitude journal today. I am grateful that I have the perfect boob. **Courtney:** I mean I was telling you, that I wish I was your size because like the perfect size really, but that’s just me <laugh>. ## We Don’t Need Therapy for Body Image Issues, We Can Just Know This **Anne:** So I’m here to tell you that here’s a woman who you’ve been listening to for months, maybe over a year who was abused and whose husband refused to tell her that she was beautiful. Literally I was like, I want you to tell me I’m beautiful. And he said, no like just awful things that were done to me and I have the perfect boobs. So don’t think that if you had the perfect size whatever, or if you looked a certain way that the [abuse would stop or that your husband would stop](https://www.btr.org/covert-emotional-abuse/) looking at porn. That is not true. It’s true. Everyone should love where they’re at. Well, and also to accept ourselves where we are and to know that we’re enough. But like having this experience and going from being emotionally abused and having trauma for seven years to the point where I wasn’t wearing bras where I wasn’t putting makeup on, hardly ever where I just kind of slumped around with my shoulders really slumped forward because I wasn’t wearing a bra even when I went to the store or even when I went outta the house. ## The messages I always got were, you are too much So I didn’t really wanna be indecent so I slumped forward so I wasn’t scaring everyone with my braless boobs to being like, oh my word. Like I am wearing a bra and it is this perfect size for me and I am feeling so, I don’t know, empowered almost is so different for me after seven years, well almost nine years, I don’t know. I always say my new years wrong depending on when I was in the relationship and then after the relationship, but slumping around feeling like I wanted to take up less space. A lot of women who are abused, they get messages like, you are not enough. And the messages I always got were, you are too much. And so I always just wanted to make, try and make myself smaller. **Courtney:** Like that’s why you were slumping over to hide what you, you know, to be invisible. You didn’t wanna cause attention or anything. ## Prioritizing YOU **Anne:** Yeah, totally. And so this place where I can hold my shoulders back and hold my head up high and know that I’m not like indecent because I actually have a bra on so I’m not scaring anybody and it fit was just so cool. I’m really excited to be at this point in my healing process. Now for our listeners, wherever you are in your healing process, please don’t let this podcast turn you off to the podcast because I myself was in this place of, I don’t really wanna talk about the way I look, I don’t wanna talk about the way I eat, I don’t wanna talk about exercise, I don’t wanna talk about anything right now. Like the only thing I can do right now is survive and so many women are in that stage. ## Why Is Healing Body Image Issues After Betrayal Important? So when you want to and when you feel like coming out of that, and it may take years, it took me years, then a bra fitting might be a really cool celebration activity for you to like throw off the old and bring in the new. Courtney, why is the bra the most important thing women wear? **Courtney:** It does a really hard job. It holds up your bosoms all day long. That’s why they’re so important because you’ll like more put together, your clothes will look better, you can feel more confident and comfortable doing the things you wanna do. I have a lot of women who come into my shop that want to be active. They want to exercise, they wanna work on their fitness and their health, but they don’t feel comfortable doing so because their breast size makes it so that they feel really comfortable exercising. They feel like their boobs are floppy in the air or you know they’re in the way. And so getting a sports bra that fits in that can make it so that they can feel comfortable exercising is life changing. It really can change women’s lives. And that’s why my slogan on my website is, I am changing lives when I’m bra fitting at a time because it gives people the courage, the freedom, and the confidence to do what they wanna do in their life. ## When you compare yourself to Media, you’re always gonna lose **Anne**: I think our audience probably has, depending on the woman, depending on the situation, has a lot of issues with bras too because their husbands are sex addicts and pornography users, right? So when you compare yourself to porn, you’re always gonna lose. [Betrayal causes body image issues.](https://www.btr.org/treating-body-image-issues-after-betrayal/ "Betrayal causes body image issues.") There’s no way to win. Porn is staged women who are likely on drugs, who are being exploited. Like having these parts of our body be something that our husband wants to use is such a difficult thing. And this profiting for me was a way to take my body back, to give it back to myself and to take care of myself rather than this is part of my body that is for someone else or for some other use. I feel like this is part of me and [how I can cope with betrayal trauma](https://www.btr.org/ "how I can cope with betrayal trauma"). I can integrate it back into myself and use it as part of my healing rather than disown it almost as a thing that’s for someone else’s use. ## Why Is Bra Shopping Triggering? Which I think it feels like a lot of times when you’re married to someone who’s an addict, who’s not in recovery, who’s using you as a drug rather than seeing you as a person to be cherished and loved and cared for. I think another reason why bra shopping is so triggering for women in at least my audience here listening is the advertising or seeing other women in their brass or whatever And so it’s been interesting to go to your Instagram account, right? And see women in their bras. That is part of what is super triggery for many women in the situation. So I just wanna first of all do a trigger warning with also a notice that I think the more healed we get, the more we can realize that this is for me rather than worry about what our husband’s thinking or doing or how it’s affecting someone else. ## embrace bras as a necessity: not just primarily for other people’s gratification. **Courtney:** On my website, the message that I try to convey from my business and on my Instagram is that our society think of bras as sexual and so on my Instagram, I really try to show that they’re not just sexual. I really try to embrace that bras are more of a necessity and that they’re not just primarily for other people’s gratification. I really try to convey that, showing how bras can really help us to feel more confident. **Anne:** And that’s what I really appreciated, rather than having it be for someone else’s gratification. **Courtney:** Thank you. ## I am enough and I don’t have to be anything else to be lovable **Anne:** If anyone is doing it right, Courtney is. I immediately came home and told my mom, you have got to go do this. Knowing that I am enough and that whatever size I am is enough. I don’t need to be anything else to be lovable, to be cherished, and that I can find a bra that fits me where I’m at. I don’t have to be different in order to fit in the perfect bra rather than the other way around. Going bra shopping and thinking, ugh, because I am damaged and I am not perfect. I’m never going to be able to find the bra that fits because bras only fit perfect women. I’m no longer going to let my stance against inappropriate media get in the way of my own self-care. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast **Tags:** emotional abuse --- ### [Types of Exploitation - A Conversation with Anne Basham](https://www.btr.org/types-of-exploitation/) **Published:** July 9, 2024 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** One of the types of exploitation is so common most people don't know how harmful it is. **Content:** Whether it’s objectifying one human being through domestic abuse or many through trafficking, dehumanizing women is a despicable act. One of the types of exploitation is so common most people don’t know how harmful it is. Anne Basham, CEO of Anti-Trafficking International (ATI), joins Anne to dive deep into the correlations between pornography use, domestic abuse, and human trafficking. Do you need support? Learn about [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/ "Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions"). ![Types of Exploitation](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Types-of-Exploitation.webp "Types of Exploitation")## Transcript: Types of Exploitation **Anne:** We have Anne Basham on today’s episode. She understands the connection between trafficking and domestic abuse. has worked in both the legislative and executive branches of the federal government, as well as government relations in the private sector. Where she advocated on behalf of human rights such as violence against women, child welfare, human trafficking and genocide. Most recently Ms. Basham was the senior advisor at the Department of Justice for Victims of Crime. Anne B. helped develop strategies to help victims of human trafficking, assault, and violence against women and children. This is why she is passionate about empowering children, parents, and frontline responders to effectively recognize and respond to human trafficking. Welcome Anne Basham. **Anne B.:** Thank you so much for having me. **Anne:** Before this episode, we talked a little about how trafficking and grooming intersect with narcissism. And the type of abuse that I talk about on this podcast all the time, all day long, every episode. So as we talk about trafficking, where you see some overlaps. I would like you to bring that out of the woodwork for our listeners. Since all of our listeners marry, men who exploit women. So I want both of us to remember that. So we can always bring it back to our listeners, and what they can do, and even how it can help them in their own situations. ## Intersection Of Types of Exploitation **Anne:** Let’s talk about how men groom women to exploit them. Because I talk about grooming on this podcast about what men do to their partners, trying to make them look like a good guy. Talk about grooming in this context **Anne B.:** Yeah, so there’s definitely a lot of crossover. So grooming really is conditioning someone to do something that is not within their nature. This can obviously happen in a marriage, as well as in trafficking. That’s one of the crossovers. In human trafficking, there’s a big misconception that human trafficking is mostly someone coming and kidnapping a child off your front lawn. That is not how trafficking usually happens in America. Usually it’s grooming. It’s a boyfriend at a high school who appears like a wonderful guy. He may appear like a wonderful guy to the parents, he lures her in. And conditions her slowly over time to either do things she doesn’t want to do through coercion or force, or then he threatens her. ## Coercion In The Context Of Trafficking For example, it’s video recording sexual acts and then threatening to put them on the internet, or show them to peers. It could be physical threats of violence against her or her family. It’s really through coercion, fraud or force. But it happens through the mechanism almost always of grooming instead of straight kidnapping. **Anne:** That’s super important for our listeners. I have talked to many women in our community who have been filmed by their husband and experienced [marital coercion.](https://www.btr.org/what-is-marital-coercion/) For example, he put a camera in the shower and then uploaded it to the internet for money. Or filmed them secretly. So if she never finds out about it, is that still considered trafficking? ![What Happens When You Stop Having S__ With Your Abuser](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Cnda4Lcrb0A/hqdefault.jpg) ## Legal Definitions Of Exploitation **Anne B.:** The definition of trafficking is, it involves money. Trafficking uses fraud or coercion, then attaches money to it. For example, you can be groomed in different situations. But when it’s trafficking, you’re exchanging goods. The underpinning of trafficking is greed. Think of it like drug trafficking, it’s very similar. How can we monetize a person as a product and get money for them, and that’s what’s underneath. **Anne:** So if a man secretly films his wife in the shower or in other private moments, and puts it on the internet and sells it as mainstream pornography. That would be trafficking? **Anne B.:** That’s a really interesting question. If he films it with the intent of making money, that can cross the line into trafficking. Trafficking by definition has to do with an exchange of money. Legally, for it to be trafficking, there must be a sexual act. So if she’s in the shower and he videos her, puts it on the internet and sells it, it’s probably illegal. But it’s not technically trafficking. If however, he videos her in an act with him, and then puts it on the internet with the intent to make money, it’s trafficking. **Anne:** So if I were a trafficking husband’s defense attorney, I would say “Well he didn’t mean to make money. That wasn’t the intent”, and I would get off. **Anne B.:** I don’t know if you’d get off or not. It’s up to the attorneys. It’s definitely a gray area, but if it can be proven that it was videoed and then intended to make money off of it in any way. Then that crosses the line. And the legal definition is coercion, fraud or force. ## Exploitation and Domestic Abuse **Anne B.:** So if that video is used in a coercive way, it’s also crossing a line. **Anne:** Interesting. So it sounds like we need a little stronger laws on the books in terms of men filming their wives and putting it on the internet. Many women come and say my husband filmed me, he put it online. I don’t know what to do. And they’re trying to figure out if I save my marriage or not. I want to be like you’ve got a serious abuser on your hands if that has happened to you. **Anne B.:** Oh yeah, absolutely. The issue is, if I can just go down that road, is that it primes someone to think exploitation is acceptable. There’s a huge link, and it’s not discussed enough. Fortunately, people are talking about it much more. But it used to be, oh no pornography is something innocent. If people willingly exploit people to make it or exploit people they view, what’s the issue? The answer is in the question. Just to give you a quick understanding of trafficking: there are the traffickers, and those are the people selling the victims. And then there are people called recruiters, who could be teenagers in high school. Think of it in terms of drug trafficking. You have people who sell the drugs, you have the supplier who gives them the drugs. They think of usually girls the same way. So the target age I should say of a person who’s trafficked is actually 11 to 15. But it goes up to 25. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## Exploiter’s Mindset **Anne B.:** The mindset is similar to a narcissist. I worked at the Department of Justice, I met with a man who spent his life working on reforms in the criminal justice system. He writes books. He’s a leader at a college. And he said to me point blank on the phone that the connection between an abuser in a domestic violence relationship and a human trafficker are the same. Exploitation and men who use coercive control are linked. It’s just in one case they do it with one person, and in the other they do it with many people and for money. So that was interesting to hear from him, because he said that to me at the beginning of a meeting. But I will tell you that traffickers target their victims. It’s a lot of mind games. So that’s a lot of similarities that you’ll see with some of your listeners. You don’t see many people who are purchasing the victims. Exploitative media conditions your brain and what you see on the screen. It’s even more violent, it’s not always consensual. And every time someone consumes it, their brain has a dopamine hit. So when their brain gets that dopamine hit, what happens? They want the next. There’s a woman on our board of directors, and she is an expert in addiction. She explained to me that it’s more difficult to break a [sex addiction than any other addiction,](https://www.btr.org/sex-addiction-therapist-near-me/) because you carry your sexuality everywhere you go. ## Exploitation: The Motivation Of Domestic Abuse **Anne:** I think the thing that’s hard for wives of these men to wrap their heads around is that this is an abuser, [their husband is toxic](https://www.btr.org/is-my-husband-toxic/). So even if he has an “addiction”, it’s domestic abuse to you. His addiction is an addiction for him, he has the addiction. What you have is an abusive man. It’s important to know that this is directly tied to domestic abuse. Someone willing to lie, manipulate, narcissistic abuse or covert abuse. If someone is that type of abuser, and he’s a man, then he is likely to use exploitative media. So many women will say he didn’t use exploitative media, but he lied, he manipulated, he did all these other things. In the back of my mind, I’m always thinking, it’s so easy to hide. You can use it on your phone. It doesn’t smell. It’s not like a drug or like alcohol, where you can smell it on your breath. It’s very easy for someone to hide this from their spouse forever, and they never find out about it. **Anne B.:** Oh absolutely, I completely agree. **Anne:** There’s this sense that a human being is not really human. That they’re a drug. That they are bought or sold and can be manipulated. In the case of a husband, it’s more like she’s a tool. She can do my laundry, do my dishes, and give me it. These are the things that she is good for. And I’m going to use her for those things. Rather than actually seeing her as a partner. ## Coercion: How Abuser’s Exploit **Anne B.:** Absolutely, that’s the core of it. That was what I think this man at the Department of Justice was trying to get at, is that the core mindset is objectification of the person. They objectify the person they marry, or they objectify the victim through trafficking. That’s the similar element. It’s a piece of property. Exploitative men who do it are modern day slavers. Because it’s slavery. People can’t get out. They’re literally trapped. They’re stuck in that situation that always starts with seeing someone as property and not seeing them as equal to yourself in value or worth. **Anne:** Something you said reminded me of our listeners. You said traffickers play mind games with their victims. To get them to the point where the victim is willing to do something they normally wouldn’t be willing to do. Exploiters play mind games with the victim to manufacture her consent. She would say, “Yeah, I gave consent.” She doesn’t realize all the mind games she’s experienced, manipulation and all the coercion. She actually thinks she gives her consent, when she is manipulated and coerced. Is that accurate? **Anne B.:** Yes, absolutely. **Anne:** When I say this relates to our listeners, there’s nothing more consensual than saying yes to getting married. People don’t realize she was manipulated and coerced. And says yes, but she is to, manipulated, and coerced. People think that if you give your consent, it’s not abuse. They don’t realize that people are abused into giving their “consent” when they’re actually not giving consent at all. ## Trafficking Victims’ Security **Anne B.:** Oh absolutely. Coercion can happen in any form. It may not fit the legal definition of trafficking, because there may not be an exchange of money, but people can be coerced. Previously in my career, I worked in violence against women. That is often the case, that it actually kept them literally trapped in the relationship. We also see that in trafficking. Interestingly, victims oftentimes are in safe houses and have not just normal locks, but real security at these facilities. I remember when I first visited, I thought, oh this must be to keep the traffickers out. No, it’s not to keep the traffickers out. It’s usually to help keep the victims in, especially if they’re under 18. They don’t want to be trafficked. They’re glad to be out. But simultaneously, there is this feeling that they have to return. Because there’s enormous fear, and I see that all the time with the commonality of narcissism. **Anne:** Let’s talk about the types of exploitation in your community. Because many people think of trafficking as if your child got trafficked, so you never saw them again. But from what you’re saying, your child is trafficked right under your nose while they’re still living in your home. **Anne B.:** Yes, the woman who actually heads up our parent coalition, her daughter, was trafficked right out of her own home. So here in wealthy Fairfax County, one of the wealthiest counties in the country, right outside of Washington D.C., parents were married in all of those circumstances. **Anne:** So what you’re saying is that this is not who you imagine as trafficked. ## Trafficking: Exploiters Are Deceptive **Anne B.:** No, this is not who you may imagine being trafficked. And I will tell you this woman has come forward and is public with her story. But I know of plenty of these scenarios that are not public and will never be shared publicly for the protection of the daughter’s identity. You know who is involved in the family. Let me tell you there are names that your listeners would recognize, and their children have been victims even out of private schools. Which is shocking to people, like how could this happen to people with intact families? The profile of what we think fits a trafficking victim isn’t always there. I will say that victims can be compassionate and kind. And actually, some of the greatest strengths are some of the things perceived as weaknesses. **Anne:** When you say the victims aren’t always what you think or not what you think at all, that’s also true of the traffickers I’m assuming. But you’d think, oh a trafficker is supposed to look this way. He’s not supposed to wear a white shirt and tie. He doesn’t go to church and he doesn’t have a good job. And I don’t think that’s the case either. Right, so many traffickers look like an upstanding member of society. **Anne B.:** So there’s the traffickers and especially the recruiters So sometimes they are gang related but not always. And the recruiters often are very charming, I will say most of the time these people are very charming. ## Love Bombing, Trafficking, and Recruitment Tactics Of Exploitative Men **Anne B.:** They can do a lot of the love bombing, which I’m sure your listeners are familiar with. What love bombing is, where they shower them with gifts, flattery, and attention and fill all those needs. And through the love bombing, the victim just says this person is so wonderful. They’re getting all their dopamine hits, wow, this person’s just checking all my boxes. Unfortunately, the trafficker or recruiter knows this. And so absolutely, they don’t fit a certain profile. And I will say with that, to the buyers, one of the most interesting things to me is that you have the people selling it. Who’s buying these girls? Who is the consumer of exploitation? That’s what I feel the focus should be. I don’t have the source of the statistic in front of me, so I’m not going to state the statistic explicitly, but it’s a real statistic that a large percentage of the buyers. And so I don’t want to say the number, because I don’t have it in front of me. But a large percentage of victims’ buyers are white evangelical males, and I believe that’s because there’s a huge link to exploitative media. And so I would encourage your listeners, because I know most of them are coming out of some form of abuse. If there is abuse in your marriage, I would really have your wits about you. ## Religious Abuse & Maintaining Control **Anne:** This is a scary thing. I would say most of our listeners are women of faith. But some of them aren’t. We have agnostics that listen, and atheists that listen, and we’re interfaith and inter paradigm. So everyone is welcome here. But I think the thing that shocks the Christian listeners is that they thought they were a righteous man because he attends church, and because he can quote the Bible and other things. And wrapping their heads around the fact that those are grooming tactics that he is using to maintain power. Because there is power in the church. If you’re a righteous man, that is alarming. It’s hard to understand. That like yes, Jesus is there, and yes, Jesus can save people. But in this case, your husband isn’t going to church to worship or be a better person, he’s actually there to maintain power. **Anne B.:** Let me address that, because that’s an important point. You’re absolutely right. Some of the worst stories of trafficking I’ve heard over the years, and the ones that went on the longest, the person was very religious. And I don’t just mean Judeo-Christian. They could be any religion and just very religious. I’ve heard this from many religions, because with faith, I’m also a person of faith. You get all the wonderful elements that provide morality. A purpose in life and an explanation of basically why we’re here. But as with anything, there’s an opportunity for someone to come in and manipulate it. And basically hijack religion in the name of control. ## Hijacking Of Religion For Power **Anne B.:** And it is a hijack. It’s not the intent, but the hijack of religion in the name of control. And so unfortunately, exactly what you’re talking about happens. They appear as a wonderful wise person, a wise religious leader. And in reality, they are using that as an abuse of power. **Anne:** The most common example is a so-called righteous man maintaining control in his own home. And some religions explicitly say he’s supposed to do that. He’s the head of the household, and he’s supposed to call all the shots. And women are supposed to submit to that. That gets scary for abuse victims, I think, because they have their abuser manipulating them. But then they feel like the tenets of their faith are also fighting against them getting help. **Anne:** One of my goals is to help women of faith see that God loves you. He does not want you to be abused. These things being used to abuse you are not true. They’re not part of the gospel of Jesus Christ, they’re not part of any healthy religion. They’re simply abuse used to oppress you. ## Jesus’ Teachings On Protecting The Vulnerable **Anne B.:** As a Christian specifically, I will tell you that if we take just Christianity for example. And we just look at the Bible. Jesus made it so clear. And if you say, for example, just in the Christian religion. If you say you’re a Christian, what does that mean? You’re supposed to be a follower of Christ. Well, what Jesus said over and over is that he looks out for women, the victims, and vulnerable. Those were the people he helped, and even the intent. So in the U.S. law, and this is just U.S. law. When you go to a court, they say to you, “What’s the language and what’s the intent?” That’s how everything works. Okay, what’s the language of the law, but what’s the intent of the law? And the same actually holds true, especially in the Bible itself. Not just what’s the language, but what was the intent. You know, when Jesus said to the Pharisees words on divorce, it always comes down to what was the intent. Because even in the New Testament, they look back at the Old Testament. And King David is praised for breaking laws by feeding his own soldiers out of forbidden bread from the temple. So he took forbidden bread from the temple and fed his soldiers because they were in a crisis. They needed food, and he was praised for “breaking the law.” Because what was the intent of the law? ## Who Do Exploitative Men Target? **Anne B.:** The intent of the law was to save people. The intent of the law was always to protect people, to save people. It was never for us to just serve the law. **Anne:** It certainly wasn’t used to oppress. Especially your wife, we’ve talked a little bit about who exploiters target. You’re saying these are women, girls, and boys sometimes who you would not expect. Who are coming from affluent families or other situations. You don’t typically think of for victims. So let’s talk more about that, who do traffickers target, and what are the misconceptions? **Anne B.:** Technically anyone could become a victim of human trafficking, but they generally target certain ages. So like I said, age 11 to 15, which is shockingly young, is the prime target for most human trafficking victims. But it can range all the way up to age 25. The second thing is girls are targeted more than boys. Boys are targeted too, absolutely, but it is mostly girls. One of the other factors is perceived vulnerability, either social isolation or weakness. Like I said, it doesn’t mean that doesn’t happen across the board. One of the biggest misconceptions is that people think this can’t happen to my kid. And I say it over and over, “Yes, it absolutely can happen to your child.” So when I say perceived forms of weakness, that can be even positive. Sometimes perceived forms of weakness could be someone who is just extra compassionate. ## How Do Exploiters Trick Victims? **Anne B.:** Sometimes it’s a girl who wants a boyfriend. And why would that be *her* fault? Because often the exploiters deceive her this way. And he comes along and sweeps her off her feet. The last thing is appealing to flattery. One of the biggest ways girls can be lured in is through flattery. It’s by the simple phrase, you look like a model, you look so beautiful. Do you want to be a model? I don’t know if your audience wants to watch it, but there’s a video on Netflix called Hot Girls Wanted. It’s a documentary on how girls get lured through grooming, and starts with, “Hey, we want models.” And they get lured away. ## Exploitation Prevention Through Education **Anne B.:** Almost all funding for human trafficking in the United States goes towards after care. So most people don’t realize we are third in the world for human trafficking in the United States. Which is shockingly high. And then of that, most funding and resources in America go for after someone is recovered. Only 1% of victims of human trafficking victims are ever recovered. From my perspective, and your audience can attest to that, I’ve never met a victim who didn’t sit there and say to themselves, “I wish I’d known,” fill in the blank. “Maybe I could have,” fill in the blank. Because it’s not their fault, but they play this guessing game, I wish I hadn’t fallen down the hole. You know, I wish I had known to avoid this. And so, what our organization does is focus heavily on the prevention side. We want to stop human trafficking before it starts. We have various programs, but every one of them is very, very focused on prevention. And our main programs actually have to do with education. So I know you mentioned earlier, but my master’s is in education. I am just a firm, firm believer that education is truly the best form of prevention. Because when we know better, we do better across the board. And we can avoid things for lack of knowledge. People do perish, but with good knowledge, people can avoid horrible horrible things. And so we focus on the prevention side. Because Benjamin Franklin said it best, “An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.” For all the resources available. ## Reframing Exploitative Media As Abuse **Anne B.:** I’ve met these trafficking victims. If you sat across from one of them, eyeball to eyeball. You would want to pour everything you could into making sure that person never had to go through that in the first place. That they never had to experience any of that, or have their little girl dreams just ripped up to shreds. **Anne:** That’s interesting, you say that. I also have a master’s degree in education. It’s my main goal in life. To be like, this isn’t just an addiction issue where you can be like, oh okay honey, I love you. I’m going to support you while you go to 12 step. You have an abuser in your home and you need to act accordingly. This is a serious thing. And can he change, sure, will he change? I don’t know, but you need to get to safety and wait from a safe distance, and know what safety looks like. Know what you’re looking for to be safe. Not just take his word for it that he stopped using this explotiative content. My goal is to ensure that those young women don’t end up marrying these narcissistic abusers in the first place. That is so good. The prevention aspect of this is really important, as our listeners think about my daughter or son. How can I better safeguard him or her? What would you recommend for how to safeguard children from exploitation or trafficking? ## Safeguarding Children From Exploitation **Anne B.:** Well, the first thing is as a parent, really just educating yourself in various ways. It’s eye opening. I spoke to a PTA locally. And was told behind the scenes there was one woman, who basically got on because it was part of the PTA. She wasn’t sure she even wanted to get on. She told my friend, “I don’t need to hear this.” She was more engaged and shocked by the information, because she truly didn’t think it could happen to her kid. And my goal, as a parent and someone, like I said, who has an education background. Is to equip parents first and foremost. Number one thing is that parents need education, and then pass that information along to your kids. We have a resource on our website that’s actually a parenting tool. You can download totally for free, and it is a guide for you to talk to your kids about this. Because I know it’s a difficult thing to talk about, but it’s a great door opener to talking about narcissism and all sorts of other qualities that we look for in the people that we date. Because that’s one of the key things to discuss is what qualities we look for. And what are those red flags that we look for in a relationship? ## Ethical Issues With Exploitative Media **Anne:** Some of the things that our listeners grapple with are. How “bad” is my husband? Is he a good guy who can stop? Is our marriage okay? Do I need to file for divorce yesterday? They have these questions. They’re trying to navigate. Can you talk really quick about the progression to consuming child abuse material? Why anytime someone uses exploitative media, it’s serious. **Anne B.:** As I mentioned, it can progress to that in some cases. What’s even available on the internet is shocking to women. **Anne:** Rather than saying an escalation of the addiction, I would say an escalation of the abuse. If we ever do run into victims in exploitative media and they say I’m so proud to be exploited in this way. ## Hollywood Exploitation It reminds me of myself when I was so “proud” of my husband, who was in recovery for addiction. And I would prop him up as like he’s in recovery, and he’s doing so well, and I’m so proud of him. For overcoming all the problems he had as a kid and all this stuff, right. Not knowing that I was manipulated. So I thought that was true, but it wasn’t true. So I was standing up in front of people talking about my amazing husband who had overcome all these things. He had manipulated me into saying that. So when these women were the centerfold and proud of it, we can’t know exactly what took her there to think that that was a good thing. Because I thought it was a good thing until my whole world started falling apart. I’ve read three articles lately. One about Selma Hayek, one about Sharon Stone and one about Jennifer Love Hewitt about coercion. Just in the R-rated movies they were in. They were so excited to be this lead in a movie, and they showed up on the set. They didn’t expect a exploitative scene, and they are forced to do it by the director and a bunch of men standing around. And all three of them, Jennifer Love Hewitt, Sharon Stone and Salma Hayek, say it was traumatic. They were misled with words like that, they were coerced. And so just with a regular R-rated movie where you think this woman was paid like she’s on this poster. Everybody knows she’s in it. They wouldn’t think she was coerced into doing these types of scenes in those movies. ## Exploitation On Movie Sets **Anne B.:** But it’s hard, they pay them. Think about it, you have a contract, people standing around, and you don’t know all the details. And then someone stands there and says you need to do X, Y or Z. And it’s very easy to stand on the outside and judge. I hear it all the time, well why didn’t they just say no, or why didn’t they just… Don’t judge until you have literally walked through this, because it is subtle. **Anne:** Yeah, and that’s “just” a movie. I’m realizing now there was one more It was Amelia Clark from Game of Thrones. She too was surprised that she’d need to show her breasts, and she was upset about it. But she said “She didn’t have a big enough name and all these people were standing around.” And they said, “Well, if you won’t do this we need an actress who will and you’ll lose your job.” That’s coercion. I’m grateful that women in Hollywood are now starting to talk about this and write articles about it. So we know Amelia Clark had this problem, because there’s an article about it in CNN. More and more women are saying, “Wait a minute, no, no and no.” And also after the fact, when we realize that wait, my whole marriage was a sham. I was groomed from the beginning, and he never truly cared about me as a person. He was never a partner, he just wanted to use me. Now I know the truth. We’re trying to share that with other women, so that we can all stay safe. Whether it’s in Hollywood, whether it’s in our own relationships or how we can keep our kids safe, obviously. ## Signs Of Exploitation **Anne:** This is all exploitation on every front. As you know, all of our listeners are in relationships with men who use exploitative media, lie, manipulate, narcissistically abuse, emotionally abuse, psychologically abuse, and coercion. Oh my word, that’s way too many things I just said. But they’re all dealing with that in their own homes. Can you talk about the signs of exploitation? Like there might be a listener who doesn’t know she’s being exploited. **Anne B.:** Yeah, so some signs of exploitation can be changes in someone’s appearance. Their grades are slipping, some of their physical features. Just to tie it in to your listeners, especially, you know. I worked with victims of violence against women, as well as our organization called the Just Ask Prevention Project. It’s so important to ask people. It started because there was a victim trafficked for three years. Her grades were slipping, her appearance had changed. She was in counseling because of it. She was seeing doctors, you know, people were addressing it, but they were addressing all the signs, all the symptoms. And I’m sure your listeners can relate to that. You see things happen from the outside, and only the symptoms are addressed. **Anne:** Well, they don’t know what the source is, right? So they’re in [marriage counseling because they think it’s a communication problem](https://www.btr.org/christian-help-for-infidelity/), or they think oh, I just need breast implants because my boobs aren’t as big as my neighbors. **Anne B.:** Exactly! ## Asking the Right Questions About Exploitation **Anne B.:** And so all these signs and symptoms are coming up. Your listeners here, in a friend or anyone. Just ask, just ask them, could your husband be using exploitative content? Is there anyone forcing you, is anyone coercing you? If you have a child specifically or someone younger, you can ask targeted questions about whether this is exploitation. This girl opens up as with the right questions. But she was never asked the right questions. And I know for so many victims they will speak up, but they won’t speak up until the right questions are asked. And I know that sometimes, it’s hard to even ask your husband these questions, because I mean, do we want to know? **Anne:** Well, but he’ll also lie to you. So asking him’s not really gonna help. So if you say, hey, are you filming me and then putting it on the internet for money? He’s not gonna say yes. That is the same with abuse. People don’t realize they’re abused, and then when someone asks them some specific questions or helpful questions. Then you can help them see it. We can assume that many trafficking victims don’t actually realize they’re being trafficked. And help them by asking questions, or maybe by educating them a little bit. Which is hard to do. I realize that it feels like, oh wait, this is none of my business. I ask that person, is someone forcing you to do something that makes you feel uncomfortable? From personal experience, having asked people some very difficult questions, like oh, is your husband raping you? ## Encouraging Victims To Speak Up **Anne:** It has been amazing how well it has gone. And I know that sounds crazy. And if it doesn’t go well, at least you did what you could to help that person. I’m always a fan of people who out of compassion and care for people do their best to help. And I think people can see that, and I hope they can. And if they get mad, they get mad, but at least you tried. That’s my opinion. **Anne B.:** Absolutely, I agree at the core we all want to be known. And we’ve even talked to women who lead ministries or are leaders in other capacities. I’ve talked to men who are leaders at church. And I think one of the biggest things is not just to address the signs and symptoms, but also to dive deep. And say, “Have you considered maybe your partner exploits you?” Then going there with that victim. You know, maybe she thinks it, but no one’s actually asked her. They’ve just said to her, “Hey, why don’t you go into counseling?” or “Why don’t you go to a doctor and take some medication if you’ve got some anxiety?” But she feels something’s wrong, and she’s not addressing it. She has this strong sense, but she needs the courage of someone else to come there and ask those pointed questions. Because I think those pointed questions give people courage. They think about things. They’ve probably wondered themselves and never had the courage to go there. **Anne:** Or maybe I must just be crazy. My husband’s fine, nice, and we go to church. He always initiates family prayer. I’m just being crazy. ## Recognizing Exploitation In Marriage **Anne B.:** I have a friend. This woman had gone all over speaking and wasn’t hiding what was going on with her husband. And she tells this pastor behind the scenes about what is going on. The man said to her, “Have you considered this is abuse?” And she initially said, “Oh no, no.” But it takes that first person to say, “Have you considered this could be abuse, have you considered this could be exploitation?” **Anne:** And I love you, dear listeners, which is why I’m asking these hard questions and asking you to ask these hard questions. Hoping that we’ll all make our way to safety together as a healthy army of women, which is exciting to me. It’s exciting that more and more women are becoming educated about these issues of exploitation and can teach their children and talk to their friends, because that’s what’s gonna get us out of this mess. Anne B. I appreciate you coming on today’s episode. You have such a wealth of knowledge. Thank you so much. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [How To Know If You're Experiencing Spiritual Abuse Symptoms?](https://www.btr.org/spiritual-abuse-symptoms/) **Published:** May 16, 2023 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** If your husband uses scripture to coerce, control or accuse you of sin, you may be experiencing spiritual abuse. **Content:** Is your husband using scriptures to coerce or oppress you? If so, you may be experiencing spiritual abuse symptoms. Here’s how to know for sure. If you’re wondering if you’ve experienced spiritual abuse, take our [free spiritual abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/) to see if he’s used any of these tactics to exploit and oppress you. Spiritual abuse is a form of emotional and psychological manipulation where a husband uses scripture, revelation, or religious traditions to oppress women. It also involves the misuse of power by leaders or authority figures to control, manipulate, or exploit women under their influence. This type of abuse can take many forms, from fear tactics and guilt-tripping to strict rules. It’s often mistaken for spiritual teachings. ![Freedom from Spiritual Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Freedom-From-Spiritual-Abuse-1.webp "Freedom from Spiritual Abuse")## 9 Signs Of Spiritual Abuse 1. Coercing the victim into sexual activity using scripture or the misogynistic logic that it is her “wifely duty” to submit to her husband 2. Refusing to help with household duties, telling a woman it’s the role God intended for her 3. Convincing the victim that she does not have access to God’s direction or power without a man 4. Making unilateral decisions 5. Controlling the finances 6. Undermining her talents, refusing to let the victim work 7. Accusing the victim of “sin” 8. Controlling whom the victim can associate with 9. Controlling the victim’s hobbies This list isn’t exhaustive, but may help victims identify areas in which the abuser uses spirituality and religious texts or traditions to control and coerce her. ![Symptoms from Spiritual Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Symptoms-From-Spritual-Abuse.webp "Symptoms from Spiritual Abuse")## 5 Spiritual Abuse Symptoms 1. Feeling like you must constantly try harder to earn a place in heaven. 2. Believing that God disapproves of you, even when you’ve done nothing wrong. 3. Struggling with feelings of depression and hopelessness. 4. Feeling overwhelmed by the pressure to meet impossible spiritual standards. 5. Thinking you’re unworthy of God’s blessings or that God has forgotten you. In Abby’s case, her abuser used spiritual abuse to deny her medical care, access to education, and contact with her family. [If you relate and need support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY. We’re here for you](https://www.btr.org/group/). ## Isolation Is A Symptom Of Spiritual Abuse By nature, spiritual abuse is generally very isolating. Husbands and church leaders may not allow victims to associate with others outside the faith community. Abusers may refuse to allow victims to contact family or friends who don’t practice their faith like they do. ![Counseling for Spiritual Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Counseling-For-Spiritual-Abuse.webp "Counseling for Spiritual Abuse")## Transcript: How To Know If You’re Experiencing Spiritual Abuse Symptoms **Anne:** I have Abby on today’s episode. Her parents died when she was 12. A family adopted her into a family that attended the Community of Christ Church in Northern Missouri. She married her husband, also a member of that same church, at the age of 18. They were married for 26 years and had five children. While dating and married, she experienced spiritual abuse in the form of misuse of the word of God by her husband and several influential male leaders of her church. Welcome Abby. **Abby:** Thank you, Anne. I’m honored to be here. I hope my story will help others know that God himself does not want his daughters to be oppressed in any way. And that he is the ultimate authority or one that calls the shots, if you will. ![Spiritual Abusers Want You To Think You're Rebellious](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/GcKBBYifx2I/maxresdefault.jpg) ## Early Red Flags In Marriage **Anne:** When did you start to sense that something wasn’t quite right. **Abby:** I sensed it from the beginning, but because of lack of education and self-esteem, I wasn’t sure what to do about it. My former spouse would sit in the car with me for hours and tell me what God told him about me. I didn’t know I was experiencing spiritual abuse. And let’s just use a silly example. God told me you were wearing a blue dress when X, Y, Z happened. I would say, no, I was wearing the purple dress, not a blue one. And he would overpower me. And the truth became that the dress was the color he chose. That sounds silly, but it was a powerful way of controlling. **Anne:** I don’t think that sounds silly at all. I think it sounds extremely traumatic and strange. **Abby:** Well, and God is the ultimate trump card, and he knew I am woman of faith and was very devoted. Some other issues were, I went on a hiking trip with the youth of my church. All of us got to the top of Mount Elbert. We’re having fun. And I fell in a snow drift, and one of the guys pulled me out, and we laughed. Afterward, he forced me to stay away from that boy. He wouldn’t let me go out with other friends. And would dominate my time, actually stopped in the road while I was getting in the car with Stephanie, my friend. He said, Oh, you need to go with me. ![What Are Spiritual Abuse Symptoms](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-Are-Spiritual-Abuse-Symptoms.webp "What Are Spiritual Abuse Symptoms")## Physical, Emotional & Spiritual Abuse Symptoms **Abby:** One of the most poignant situations was that he had a pornography issue or addiction at the time. I’ve learned that can cause [lack of intimacy](/lack-of-intimacy-in-marriage/). And I had learned to play the guitar from a former boyfriend. And so to prove my devotion to him and him professing he was giving up or abandoning his addiction. Required me to throw my guitar along with his magazines into a well. I was never allowed to play the guitar for youth campfires ever again. Yes, it all seemed odd. I actually went to a school counselor and said, “Look, do I not communicate well?” This person is just not understanding a word I’m saying. And she says, “You have a fine command of the language”, but I was uneducated. I did see red flags. **Anne:** Really quickly for our audience, was this a public school, a church school, where you were trying to get educated at home? ![How to Prevent Spiritual Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Prevent-Spritual-Abuse.webp "How to Prevent Spiritual Abuse")**Abby:** A public school. **Anne:** Okay. **Abby:** And even the night before our wedding, we sat in the car and I said, there’s just something wrong. I just can’t go through with the wedding. And so I said, good night, got out of the car. He pulled me back in and overpowered my own conscience. He has a way with words and was able to convince me how wrong I was to not follow through with the wedding. Those feelings were spiritual abuse symptoms. **Anne:** So you knew something was wrong. ## Resistance & Submission **Anne:** You’re resisting this abuse, the best way that you can. And everything you’re doing during this time is to resist abuse. So did you resist by praying, serving and loving the typical Christian advice for how to solve a problem? This is [when biblical submission becomes abuse. ](https://www.btr.org/when-biblical-submission-becomes-abuse/ "when biblical submission becomes abuse. ") **Abby:** In the early part of our marriage, I was a strong willed young woman. We often had fights, and it was mostly over him saying and persisting that the dress was blue instead of purple, kind of a situation. Those kinds of conversations would lead to argument. The argument would lead to being forced on the ground, held down on the bed in a corner until I finally gave up and consented. Okay then, the dress was blue, so I had to shut up. To maintain peace in our household, I just ended up stuffing for years. And then I would have outbursts of anger, and I’m like, what’s the matter with me? I’m so angry. And I understand now why, until 20 years later, I wasn’t even able to articulate the concept of these behaviors as abuse. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## Recognizing This Kind Of Behavior As Abusive **Anne:** So many women from all over the world have found that it’s so difficult to recognize that this type of behavior is abuse. And it takes years to figure it out. In your case, why do you think for you it was so hard to figure out that it was abuse or even to label it abuse until years later? **Abby:** Well, predominantly I believe it was my, my belief system. I read the Bible. I read how Jesus died for those who persecuted him. And there are several passages that talk about honoring authorities, the laws of the land, submitting to your husband, and suffering like Christ. He used that to control me, I didn’t know it was spiritual abuse. ## Cultural & Religious Barriers **Abby:** All the things that I endured with him in my mind at that time were purely suffering for Christ. I went through a period of the homeschool movement, in which many of the presentations of homeschool families focused heavily on women submitting. And so I thought internally that I was doing what the Lord wanted me to do. I’ve heard the word abuse, but the two did not connect. And I also thought it was what God wanted me to do. **Anne:** In your experience, the whole spiritual construct or in the world you lived in, the culture of your religion kept you from seeing that it was abuse. That you were a victim and having spiritual abuse symptoms. **Abby:** Absolutely, additionally his behaviors were not Christlike in many ways. **Anne:** In light of this, being actively abused, you are practicing the types of principles that seem like they’re a good idea, right? Love, service, forgiveness, taught by your religion, but in the context of abuse, they’re harmful to you. When did you realize that these common types of marriage principles are just healthy living principles? They were not working in your case. **Abby:** There are several pivot points where I became aware and then would get pulled back in. One of the most powerful influences and also moments of pivot of saying, wait a minute, this isn’t right. God wouldn’t do this. Were the times he would hear from God that I had done horrible things. I guess I can be completely transparent here. He would accuse me of adultery for just talking to someone. He would accuse me of spiritual infidelity for speaking with my mother. Isolating me away from people who had a different opinion and would give me options to his treatment of me. ## Spiritual Abuse Symptoms: Isolation & Accusations **Abby:** I remember specifically fleeing the home after an episode and going to the library for retreat. On its side was a book by Jack Atterburn, called *Twisted Scriptures*, if I have the author correct. And I’m like, what is this? And I picked it up. I snatched it, went to my mom’s home. It took me two or three hours to recover from the episode. I’m reading this book and I’m like, this is what’s happening to me. And I went home and stood in the kitchen, and I still remember the clock saying 10 and the hands are at 10 o’clock. And I said, this isn’t going to happen anymore. I don’t remember what happened, how he did it. I just remember. ending up on the floor in defeat and being accused of spiritual adultery. Repeated incidents of being accused of adultery when I knew between me and God in my own heart and conscience that I had never done so. And then to have it accused publicly, not only in front of my children, but also in front of people of the faith. And so the conflict between the two was horrible. It wasn’t until many years later that I finally said, I will not do this anymore. **Anne:** When you’ve decided this and you’re not getting any traction with him, right? You’re ending up just continually being blamed. Did you start to try and get help from other people? **Abby:** Yes, a helper was a prominent leader in the faith. He convinced me, a church faith leader, that I was not submissive enough. And that’s why I was having so many problems. So he compounded the spiritual abuse symptoms by doing the same thing as my husband. ## Educating The Abuser **Abby:** I also fled to a women’s shelter. I was given the power and control wheel after an episode, and I was in crisis. It made a lot of sense to me, but not all the wheel was full at that time. A third of it was, or at least I recognized, and I took it home to him. Thinking if he just sees this, we could get help and everything would be okay. That wasn’t the case. **Anne:** Yeah, that sounds so familiar. I did that. And pretty much every woman I’ve ever interviewed. Shares that she tried to educate her abusive husband about the abuse, thinking that that would help. That’s a way to resist abuse. It’s actually something a super healthy person would do. So we’re doing the right thing. Not knowing and not being educated about abuse. That he’s going to weaponize anything. Even abuse education to abuse us more. So that is so devastating when that happens. I’m so sorry that happened to you. Many women who have tried to educate their abuser about his abuse end up being accused of being abusive. Because the abuser learns to use the language of therapists or church leaders. Spiritual abuse, they use scripture. That’s why our spiritual abuse symptoms are so extreme, because they use scripture or our faith tradition as a weapon against us. Now we know how to educate women about this. To say, it’s dangerous to bring these things to your abuser. So keep this information to yourself. And I explain exactly why that is in [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). And you can get more information by clicking on the link. ## Weaponizing Abuse Education **Anne:** I’d say enroll in the Living Free Workshop. Learn why it’s so dangerous. First, at least I’ll have the foundation and understanding of what the dangers are and what to anticipate. If you decide to try and educate him about. it. **Abby:** And I could have said the same thing, if I was speaking as an advocate and not telling my story. I would’ve said exactly what you just said. It is dangerous. To divulge anything to your abuser, they will weaponize it, no matter what it is. **Anne:** Yeah, absolutely, the point of all the educational material that I produce here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. On our social media platforms, like on [Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/btr.org_). We’re also on [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/BetrayalTraumaRecovery) at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, and [YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/@BtrOrg) at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. On all those platforms and on this podcast, the purpose of me educating you about the abuse, isn’t for you to take this information and give it to your abuser. So that he’ll stop being abusive. That’s not how this works. He’ll just weaponize it and use it against you. And you will have more spiritual abuse symptoms. So please keep that in mind as you’re following me on social media, or listen to the podcast. Keep this information for yourself. ## Symptoms Of Spiritual Abuse: Impact On Children **Abby:** Yes, and I think another part that pivoted me was the way he would use our children. My oldest remembers, and I saw it too. I just didn’t have language for it until I read your book. And I want to emphasize that the abuse of a spouse, a wife, mother of children is abuse of the children. He would batter me to the point where my children would flee, escape out the living room window, and play in the creek and the fields just to get away from the abuse. And then would come back traumatized. They had spiritual abuse symptoms. What’s wrong with mommy? And he would bond with them, comfort them while I’m in an emotionally broken state. And tell them your mommy’s mentally ill. We need to pray for her. We just need to pray for her. And so my children grew up bonding with him during most critical junctures. And so it would separate me emotionally from my children. Not because I wanted to, but because, like we said before, divulging information. Even if it’s a daughter. I’m going to mom’s house for a break that would go straight to him. And even when I finally left. I could not take my children, because my older children were groomed to report on, spy on, and tell dad that I was a bad girl. So if I had taken them to a shelter, especially, the oldest son would have called dad and said, Hey, we’re over here. Come get us. Mom’s being a bad mom again. That is so hard. That whole setup of grooming the children has destroyed the emotional condition of all five of my children. And we’re still suffering the symptoms of spiritual abuse. ## Separation & Recovery **Anne:** That’s awful. I’m so sorry. How did you finally get some traction on getting to safety? And what did that look like for you? **Abby:** Well, separation, complete disconnection, was the first step of traction. Starting to think, act, and decide for myself. Which took time to recover, because everything was deferred to him previously. But I can’t emphasize enough the separation. Even though you’ve got all this covenant language, death do you part, you have to get away and start recovering on your own with outside resources. And I started my own business, integrated into my community, volunteered at a local women’s shelter, did public speaking, studied. I think I’ve read every book, almost every book on domestic violence, coercive control and spiritual abuse. Definitely educated myself, started college. And I think my greatest traction point was when I was no longer a woman with my tail between my legs in front of spiritual leaders, no matter what faith they came from. I previously thought, Oh my goodness, I need to be meek and submissive. And now I’m confident in my relationship with God and in interfacing with faith leaders. And saying, look, that’s not what the scriptures say, or educating them on what needs to happen. What they need to know to help victims who come to them for help, and what they’ve been in the past, is dangerous. Because I didn’t have my children with me, I went to Division of Family Services. I know that may not have been the best choice in most cases. ## Building A New Life **Abby:** But fortunately, in my case, I told the social worker I left home. This is why I’ve got five children there. They’re homeschooled, isolated, and need help. And she helped me. She did believe me. She enforced removing the children from him, but he manipulated the system, and then I filed for divorce. **Anne:** Can we talk about that for a minute? I have found that many women are spiritually abused. Part of that spiritual abuse is fear and distrust of government resources or help. Can you talk about how abusers use a fear of services that people could use, perhaps community services? We need to acknowledge that fear of the police or justice system is justified when you’re a victim. Because I interview victims who have been more abused through the system and have spiritual abuse symptoms. So there’s no guarantee services will help. But some women get help. Do you share that these services help them greatly? **Abby:** Absolutely. I definitely was afraid to go there. They weren’t the kingdom. They were of the world. Do not go down to Egypt, Isaiah says, and you are disobeying. The higher laws of God to go to the world for counsel. And it was horrible.We were prevented from getting medical care because of this same issue. He would say, God’s going to heal you. You don’t need a doctor. So that conditioning and fear was there for a long, long time. And so it was a big risk for me. ## Spiritual Abuse: Miracles & Support **Abby:** I had already, by the time I spoke to her, realized after many unfortunate episodes with church leaders. Who didn’t get me the appropriate resources, and address the real issue of our home. I did go to this social worker. The terror of leaving an abuser, threats of murdering me. You’ll never see your children again, which was horrible. And I thought, well, I’ll just go back. And she told me, Abby, if you go back, I will take your children from you both because he is abusing your entire family. It would have been a year and a half after separation. And she was extremely helpful. So it was good for me, but it was so hard to trust secular resources. **Anne:** Were you surprised at how helpful they were when you finally did that? Were you like, wait a minute, they care about me. I mean, I just think like this whole time you’ve been trying to do what God wanted you to do. And by the way, God loves you, right? He cares about you. And yet in this system, you’re not being cared for at all. In fact, you’re being dismissed, so the symptoms of spiritual abuse go unnoticed. And then you go to these secular people who are actually caring for you and trying to help you. And listening to you and believing you. Were you shocked? Were you like, wait a minute, I was taught these guys were bad, and here they are, they’re amazing? **Abby:** I was, I mean, two episodes. First of all, the social worker was a heathen. She did not, does not believe in God. I was upset, because I thought I was a godly person and being a bad example. ## Help From A Social Worker **Abby:** Look at my household. And she called me one afternoon. I can’t remember the whole content, but I said, Ginny, you believe in God. And I said, every morning you put your feet on the floor, you go to work, and you deliver the captives. You deliver the orphans. And you are helping people in abuse. You believe in God because that’s what he would do. **Anne:** What did she say to you? **Abby:** She was in shock, and then when I was with my spouse, I would cry and pray on my face. And God deliver me and you know the truth will set you free. That is what kept going through my mind. I didn’t understand why I wasn’t free, that these were all symptoms of spiritual abuse. I was accused of rebellion for running and hiding from him. Which I would typically run and hide at a park, a local park, and I was labeled rebellious. And so when I was sitting with the counselor, she said, Abby, it’s a normal response to run and hide in the park. That’s a normal response to abnormal behavior. And I just stared at her. You mean I’m not rebellious? I had no clue that I wasn’t rebellious for hiding from the abuse. And I would like to say to women believers, if it makes any sense to you. I believed some scriptures, like Esther, Abigail, predominantly Old Testament scriptures. That women were very subdued, they’re very dominated in the patriarchal culture. And they had to wait on God’s deliverance, or at least seemingly so. And so I had adopted that belief system that I had to wait for God to deliver me. ## Stages Of Deliverance **Abby:** So I would fast, I would pray, I would lay on my face. And I won’t go into the whole story. But there came a moment where I prayed and told God I will go home. If you tell me that I am not rebellious, adulterous, all the labels he had covered me with, like manure. He basically said, Nope, you got to do this. You got to get up. You got to, you got to submit to me, honor me and take the consequences. I’m like, you mean I can’t go home? And that’s not the whole story. That’s not the intimate story behind what I’m trying to say. My deliverance came through my growing in strength and personal relationship with him and other people. It didn’t come from a magical deliverance knocking him on the head. I had to do the work, to gain freedom from spiritual abuse. **Anne:** This idea of deliverance is something I’ve been studying for years. I love stories in the Old Testament and the New Testament, and the Book of Mormon. I study from the Book of Mormon of deliverance and people separating themselves from wickedness. There are so many stories, and God is a God of deliverance. He is. And you think about the parting of the Red Sea. So, one of my favorite stories is that Moses parts the Red Sea, and then the Israelites have to walk through it. That’s probably quite a walk. The bottom of that sea is dry, rocky and hard. We always focus on the parting of the Red Sea, and then they magically walk through it. But I’m like, what was this part of the Red Sea? ## Taking Action For Safety To Get Relief From Spiritual Abuse **Anne:** And then they actually walked that hard, long slog through the bottom of a body of water that has been there forever, is amazing. Not something to discount. They had to walk through. The more I study deliverance, the other thing I realize is there are these stages of deliverance, there’s the stage where they’re wandering around in the wilderness. And same with our deliverance. In each stage, we are required to pack up our bags, and actually move ourselves out, or cross the sea. Or, in the case of the 40 years in the wilderness, there were times when they just had to believe they would get mana that day. They didn’t know how they were going to be fed. They did the best they could under the circumstances. So I encourage women now who desperately pray their husband will understand. Please start praying, asking Heavenly Father, how am I going to be delivered? What do you want me to do to bring to pass my deliverance? When they were backed up against the Red Sea, Moses actually had to command the sea to part. Moses didn’t just get to the sea and then be like, Oh shoot, what are we going to do? He actually took action. Keep that in mind as you’re praying for deliverance. It will require you to begin to take action for your own safety to escape the spiritual abuse. And the amazing thing is miracles will occur along that path that you could not have done. Like Moses, no matter how hard he tried, no matter how much he said to the sea, part, he couldn’t part it. ## Support From Faith Leaders **Anne:** God parted it, but he actually took action to speak the words out loud. So I think knowing that it will be stages of deliverance, knowing that you need to play a part in that, that you have to move your feet, is important. **Abby:** And I’d also like to point out that Pharaoh and the Israelites, their will, had turned into helplessness. Yes, they may be prayed every morning, noon and night for deliverance, but Pharaoh’s abuse broke their will. And so, yes, it’s going to be hard. I can only imagine that some Hebrews were weak, physically weak, and emotionally weak, and still had to take action. I so agree with that. That’s what I’m trying to say, is that I had to take action. Yes, there were miracles along the way. **Anne:** Can you talk about the miracles you experienced? Some ways people helped you? Maybe this would be a good time to talk about the bishop that helped you. **Abby:** Yes, I felt so defeated and overcome because of the spiritual abuse symptoms. And look at me, I’m a Christian woman going through divorce. I’m just, I just don’t have the spirit of the Lord anymore. I just felt totally defeated, but I had to take the actions I did. And I was at the pool with my daughters, and I got up to walk out the gate to get a towel. And this woman just confronts me at the gate, and she goes, “You have the most beautiful spirit of the Lord.” And I’m like, you’re kidding me. Are you saying that? I mean, that was one little tender way. And there are so many others I could tell, but I started a new drapery and upholstery workroom. ## Joining A New Faith Community **Abby:** The bishop that came to my shop just reminded me, yes, I’m with you. You haven’t lost me just because we’re in the middle of a battle. So I was at my shop. And a Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint’s Bishop came to my door with two missionaries. And at that time, I had already experienced years of faith leaders letting me down and betraying my trust. So I basically bit his head off. I laughed because he was so patient while I told him what had happened. And I’m not happy with you guys right now. When all the steam was gone. He just stood there kindly and gently. And he said, Abby, I want to publicly apologize for every faith leader who has let you down. And I will do everything in my power to help you. My church circles publicly humiliated me. That I could hardly go to church for fear of being publicly humiliated. And this Bishop would literally text me while I’m sitting in the parking lot. I’m afraid to come in. Well, come in. If anybody hurts you, you let me know and I’ll take care of it. He truly shepherded me. He understood how severe the symptoms of spiritual abuse were. I gained my best friend. We now work together. We’ve been friends for 12 years, and I couldn’t ask for a better friend. She’s a true Christlike loving person. She and her husband helped us through. Is she a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Yes, she was the Relief Society president at the time. **Anne:** During this time, you joined The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? **Abby:** Actually, I did, yes. ## Establishing Peace From Spiritual Abuse Symptoms **Abby:** They enabled me to start college, and gave me the practical supports to become self-reliant and stand on my own. They’ve been there at every juncture, whether it was a house fire, the death of my mother, a move. They’ve always been there for me. **Anne:** That is good to hear, especially because we have so many horror stories of church leaders. So that’s great to hear. I, myself, received food from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for years. When I was trying to build [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Support Groups](https://www.btr.org/betrayal-trauma-support-group/ "Betrayal Trauma Recovery Support Groups") actually. So I was definitely financially and physically supported by the church. And so I have a great respect and appreciation for the work that my church does. I’m so grateful for that. That is a miracle. So where are you now? Do you feel like you’ve established peace in your life? How are things going now? **Abby:** The past 15 years have been hard to have a [relationship with my children](https://www.btr.org/teach-children-about-healthy-relationships/). They’re still trying to figure things out. One of them has recently come forward, so that has been a difficult path to go through. But I have to continue in my path and make the best decisions I could. I’m about to graduate with a degree in behavioral and community health. And I own my own home. I have friends and serve where I can, especially teaching faith leaders how to respond for victims of domestic violence. And the focus of that is to not only support them, but also help them dismantle passages of scriptures. The interpretations that have kept them in bondage, in the midst of spiritual abuse symptoms. And what God wants for them. Yes, I feel like I’m at peace. ## Advice For Victims **Abby:** Making your way to safety is a hard road. And God does not want you to be oppressed, abused, betrayed or used. He does not want your children to grow up witnessing that pattern. God loves you. And you need to get away from the severe spiritual abuse, however that happens. With Anne, there are [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/). You have so much more support now than when I first left. There’s a lot of help, and you’re not alone. **Anne:** Well, thank you so much for sharing your story. We really appreciate you coming on today, Abby. Thank you so much. **Abby:** Thank you. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [The Truth About Forgiving Abuse With Valerie Hudson](https://www.btr.org/the-truth-about-forgiving-abuse/) **Published:** April 25, 2023 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Have you been told to forgive an emotionally abusive husband? Here's what you need to know. **Content:** Have clergy or therapists pushed you toward forgiving abuse? Here’s why that’s so damaging. Before you discover the truth about forgiving abuse, confirm it’s abuse by taking our [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/) to find out. ![Will God Forgive Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/will-god-forgive-abuse.webp "Will God Forgive Abuse")## Forgiveness vs. Reconciliation (They’re Not The Same Thing) Betrayal Trauma Recovery is inter-paradigm. Religious and non-religious victims can accept that reconciliation is not only unnecessary, but inadvisable in working toward the process of forgiving abuse. Forgiveness does *not* mean: - Staying in a relationship with your abuser - Spending time with your abuser - Accepting responsibility for your abuser’s choices - Continuing to associate with your abuser’s family and friends - Continuing to associate or attend community or religious services in the same location as your abuser - Staying legally married to your abuser even if you are living separately ![Forgiveness in Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/forgiveness-in-abuse.webp "Forgiveness in Abuse")## Forgiveness & “Turning The Other Cheek” When clergy and religious therapists counsel women to “turn the other cheek” by forgiving abuse or relinquish judgment against their abusers, they are putting victims in danger. “Turning the other cheek” simply doesn’t make sense in the context of abuse and betrayal: Instead, victims can hold abusers accountable by: - Reporting crime - Distancing themselves from abuse ## Forgiveness Is About Justice – Not Mercy Ultimately, forgiving abuse is about justice, not mercy. Trauma victims can find solace in accepting that it isn’t their responsibility to grant mercy to their abusers – it’s their duty to hold abusers accountable for the abuse. While this may feel daunting, victims can take small steps to seek safety. **Choosing to believe in natural consequences while taking empowering steps toward safety is the process of forgiveness.** Harmful societal scripts that place the burden of forgiving abuse and reconciliation on traumatized victims can be difficult to work through. Victims need a safe place to process trauma and create healthier ways to begin healing. Attend a [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY](https://www.btr.org/group/ "Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group") and find the community you need to help you on your healing journey today. ![the Truth About Forgiving Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/The-Truth-About-Forgiving-Abuse.webp "the Truth About Forgiving Abuse")## Transcript: The Truth About Forgiving Abuse **Anne:** I am honored to have Valerie M. Hudson on today’s episode. She is a distinguished University professor. And holds the George H. W. Bush Chair in the Department of International Affairs in the George Bush School of Government and Public Service at Texas A & M University. Where she directs the program on women, peace and security. She is the co founder of the women’s stats project. You can find that at womenstats.org. And the author of [*Sex and World Peace*, *The Hillary Doctrine*, *The First Political Order* and *Bear Branches*](https://www.btr.org/books/). In 2009, *Foreign Policy Magazine* listed Valerie as one of the world’s top 100 Global Thinkers. Welcome Valerie. **Valerie:** Oh, it’s delightful to be here. **Anne:** She has many wonderful accomplishments and books she’s written. So I encourage everyone to look at her body of work. It’s amazing, and I’m so grateful for that. Valerie will talk about her article, [*Forgiveness of Abuse and Atrocity:* *What It Is and What It Is Not,* *(A Guide for the Perplexed Christian Woman)*.](https://squaretwo.org/Sq2ArticleCasslerForgivenessAbuse.html) She sent this over to me. It hits on every concern that abuse victims face when confronted with this question of forgiving abuse. Maybe a therapist or family member, or maybe clergy, told her, you need to forgive kind of advice or counsel. It is actually hurtful or harmful to the victim, rather than being helpful. So to start Valerie, thank you for writing this. It’s incredible. ## Valerie’s Inspiration For Writing The Article **Valerie:** Believe it or not, I wrote this article in a 72 hour period following the birth of one of my children. It overcame me in a rush, and I could not help but put pen to paper. So I would hold my little baby in one arm and nurse him while typing away with my other hand. I look back on that period, which is amazing. And realized that my spirit had put together many of the lessons I had learned prior to that time paid for in blood and tears. If I put them together in one monstrous essay, you would interview me one day. And perhaps to help others by some of the knowledge I gained. ![Forgiveness for Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/forgiveness-for-abuse.webp "Forgiveness for Abuse")**Anne:** Well, I appreciate it. I already posted it on our Facebook page, and I’m trying to get the word out to everyone. Like read this, read this! It is so incredible, so you talk about forgiving abuse and atrocity. How are abuse and atrocity different from other offenses? In forgiving abuse? **Valerie:** Yes, I really think that if we’re going to talk about forgiveness. We have to understand that to forgive slights, to forgive microaggressions, those kinds of things are a very different kettle of fish. Than forgiving the person who has raped you, the person who has murdered your child. I think it’s important that while we are enjoined to freely forgive those who have slighted us. We may one day slight others ourselves. That it’s different with atrocity, because we’re never going to murder somebody. We’re never going to rape somebody. And these are the deep, deep harms that attack the soul of a human being. And in that case, I think we need to tease out what forgiving abuse means. ## Abuse Is A Profound Betrayal Of Trust **Anne:** One of the definitions you have for abuse in this article is a profound betrayal of trust, which I talk about on the podcast all the time. That years and years of psychological abuse surrounding someone’s exploitative materials use. Where they’re living a double life, gaslighting their spouse and dismissing her concerns. [Lying is emotionally abusive](/is-lying-emotional-abuse/ "Lying is emotionally abusive"). That is profound psychological and emotional abuse surrounding perhaps their pornography use or maybe the affairs they have. And you talk about this several times in this article. Down at the bottom, you actually give an example of someone abandoning their family due to a So? Before we talk about the forgiving abuse element of this, which I want to spend a lot of time on. Can you talk about why the world doesn’t see [psychological abuse or emotional abuse,](https://www.btr.org/psychological-abuse-vs-emotional-abuse/ "psychological abuse or emotional abuse,") gaslighting, or betrayal in forms of living a double life with affairs and pornography as abuse? Why do you think the general population, even people in the church, don’t see that as a serious form of abuse? And recommend forgiving abuse. ![Forgiving Abuse Bible](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/forgiving-abuse-bible.webp "Forgiving Abuse Bible")**Valerie:** I think males tend to be those disinclined to see that serious abuse. I think females tend to be those inclined to see it as serious abuse. I’m not a psychologist, so all I can say is that sometimes men have a greater ability to compartmentalize. And say yeah, I watched pornography. But hey, I still love you. That all makes sense for them. I think for most women, the viewing of exploitative material is clearly an infidelity. It’s a betrayal of trust, and it is deeply wounding. And there is complexity involved in forgiving abuse. ## The Truth About Forgiving Abuse: The Legacy of Male Perspectives In Institutions **Valerie:** Many of our religious and secular institutional leaders are men with male perspectives. And I think we see this legacy in our rape laws and other kinds of things. Where questions like, well, what were you wearing or what time of night was it? Or had you been drinking? Somehow excuse the rape, explain it, make it seem more natural that she was raped. And that is a real male perspective on things. So I see this as a legacy of the dominance of our religious and secular spaces by men. **Anne:** This is when it’s important for women to understand[ how to recognize victim blaming](https://www.btr.org/how-to-recognize-victim-blaming/ " what victim blaming is"). I want to quote you, this is from her article. “The betrayed spouse is told to ‘make peace’ for the sake of the children, but it is often a peace based on lies and concealment of abuse.” And, this happens with use as well. When people are told, well, make sure you don’t tell anyone about it, support his recovery, keep it quiet. You’re going to be the worst sinner if you don’t end up forgiving. ![Why Do "Churchy" Abusers Use Scripture As A Weapon?](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ixVDYZDSVfc/maxresdefault.jpg) So let’s transition into talking about forgiving abuse and your definition of forgiveness. I had never even considered before reading this article, but once I read it, I was like, yes, this makes sense. I totally get it, because I was told so many times. Why aren’t you just forgiving abuse? And so many members of our community have when we continue to hold boundaries for our own safety. Rather than recognizing that this abuse is still ongoing, I need to hold these boundaries for my own safety. People are like, what’s wrong with you? Why are you holding a boundary? You should be forgiving. because that’s what Christ says. So can you tell your definition of forgiveness? ## Valerie’s Definition Of Forgiveness **Valerie:** I distinguish between forgiveness and reconciliation. Forgiveness is between you and God. Reconciliation is between you, God, and the abuser. And I think this is where the confusion comes in. I think people use the term forgiveness when they mean reconciliation. They’re confusing these two concepts. So what I ask people to do in this essay is understand that forgiving abuse means something that happens between you and God, not the abuser. And what happens between you and God is that you choose sincerely to have faith in God’s justice, not God’s mercy. But God’s justice, and you can do that without involving the abuser at all. In fact, it has nothing to do with the abuser, and because it has nothing to do with the abuser. Forgiving abuse does not mean that you have to return to a relationship with your abuser. It does not mean you have to lower your barriers to an abuser and invite them back into your life. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) It doesn’t mean you have to keep silent about the abuser or hide their abuse from the authorities. No, no, no, forgiveness means you believe in God’s justice, and you are not prepared to exact justice yourself on the abuser. But you will leave it to God, and you will leave it to civil authorities. And you will not stoke hatred in your heart, because you so sincerely believe justice will be done. **Anne:** I’ve been listening to the Psalms lately when I can’t sleep, and they put me back to sleep. And I appreciate you bringing this up in this article about David and writing the Psalms about the justice of God. ## Forgiveness Is About Believing In God’s Justice **Anne:** Thinking of forgiveness, you said this. I’m going to quote you again. Your article says, “Forgiveness is not about believing in God’s mercy. Forgiveness is about believing in God’s justice.” And that speaks to my heart and the heart of all these victims, because that is one of the most difficult things to wrap your head around. You’ve seen these atrocities. You’ve been a victim of abuse, and it seems like you can’t get help. Women might go to a therapist, or to clergy, or even in the court system right now. They’re trying to get help, and they’re not finding it. And so believing that God will hold them accountable and that they will have to pay in some way. Or that justice is served in God’s own way and in his own time. There is such a different view of forgiving abuse, because you can let that go to God and hopefully live in peace in the moment, and I just appreciated that. Thank you so much. I think that definition is perfect, especially in this context. Have you had any pushback from this definition from people? **Valerie:** No, actually not. I think it’s found its way mostly to women who have been abused. And I think their reaction is pretty much the same as yours. If I understood this before. I wouldn’t beat myself up for the fact that I didn’t feel good about going back to an abusive relationship. We hear folks quoting to us from the Bible. It’s up to you to forgive 70 times seven, or you remain the greater sin. What does the [Bible really say about cheating](/what-does-the-bible-say-about-cheating-husbands/)? ## Forgiving Abuse: It Does Not Involve Reconciliation **Valerie:** That changes completely when we understand that what God is talking about is a sincere belief in God’s justice and injustice. Civil authorities will administer it. We root it out of our own heart. We would otherwise be tempted to use the sword against our abuser. People are, I think, liberated by the notion that forgiving abuse does not involve reconciliation. And that in fact, it may be part of one’s duty to God to not reconcile when there is a chance that reconciliation will harm innocence. I think it really changes things. **Anne:** One of the things you talk about in the article is reporting to civil authorities. Husbands have raped many of our podcast listeners, so wife rape. Their husbands have lied and cheated them with money. Husbands commit actual crimes. Women don’t feel comfortable enough to report it. Because civil authorities chances of serving justice are very low. Women have a hard time getting justice because they are married to the person. So victims consider these things when they’re thinking about reporting. Wives can’t report to authorities in cases of psychological abuse or emotional abuse. And clergy may not believe them. Do you have anything to say about that scenario? When it comes to believing in the justice of God and forgiving abuse. When we exhaust all earthly means, and there seems to be no earthly justice? **Valerie:** Oh, I’m glad you asked that question. And I think it’s a compelling question. As we were talking about just a few minutes ago, I think our legal system is a legacy of male perspectives on these kinds of things. I mean, it took until the 1970s for the criminalization of marital rape. People simply assumed there was no rape before that. They were married. ## Creating Distance From The Abuser **Valerie:** Rape could not occur. He had his conjugal rights to use her body as he saw fit. Sometimes women will not count on civil authorities to administer earthly justice, though they can always count on God to administer heavenly justice. And I think that’s where the healing comes. But in cases like that, to be perfectly honest with you, I think it’s incumbent upon the woman to begin to create a distance from the abuser. God does not want you to be abused. And I think it is incumbent upon a Christian disciple to escape an abusive relationship. **Anne:** I want to talk about some of these, let’s say, misapplied Christian principles in the context of forgiving abuse. But before that, you quoted a scripture that I often quote to victims, and it’s Alma 5:60. I love the scripture. I quote it all the time to victims, and it says, “and now I say unto you that the good shepherd doth call after you. And if you will hearken unto his voice, he will bring you into his fold, and ye are his sheep, and he commandeth you that you suffer no ravenous wolf to enter among you. That ye may not be destroyed.” I love that scripture. He’s commanding us to be safe, not abused. He’s commanding us to step away from that. So let’s talk about some of these often used misapplied Christian principles in forgiving abuse. ## Turn the Other Cheek Misapplied **Anne:** The first one being “turn the other cheek.” So can you talk about how that principle does not work in this context? **Valerie:** One of the problems I think is that we are not living in the same time as Jesus Christ. And as a result, I think there are many things about the context of the turn the other cheek that are so different. So for example, one Christian theologian, James Talmadge had this to say. “Of old the principle of retaliation had been tolerated. By which one who suffered injury could exact or inflict a penalty of the same nature as the offense.” “Thus an eye was demanded for the loss of an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for life. In contrast, Christ taught that men should rather suffer than do evil. To the extent of submission without resistance under certain implied conditions. His forceful illustrations that if one were smitten on the cheek, he should turn the other.” “That if a man took another’s coat by process of law, the loser should also give his cloak. That if one was pressed into service to carry another’s burden a mile, he should willingly go two miles. One should readily give or lend his ass. These are not to be construed,” Talmadge says, “as commanding abject subservience to unjust demands. Nor as an abrogation of the principle of self protection.” “Jesus directs these instructions primarily to the apostles. Who are devoted to the work of the kingdom, to the exclusion of all other interests. In their ministry, it would be better to suffer material loss or personal indignity at the hands of wicked oppressors. Than bring about an impairment of efficiency in a hindrance of work through resistance and contention.” ## Forgiving Abuse: Misinterpretation Of Smiting the Other Cheek **Valerie:** So no, if a man has molested your 10 year old, do not offer your six year old as well. If your husband has broken your left ribs, don’t offer him your right ribs to break. If a rapist enters your home to attack you and you shoot him dead, that’s not a failure to turn the other cheek. I think that if a Christian woman gets on her knees and asks God, God will tell her in no uncertain terms. No, I do not want you to be abused. That’s not what this example of smiting the other cheek means. **Anne:** We know divorce feels terrible, and it doesn’t feel right. We know abuse isn’t right. The feelings confuse many Christian women. I think they often think the Spirit is telling them: No, it’s not right to divorce. Because they feel so terrible and don’t feel peace. And to women in that situation, I always want to say it’s the abuse talking. It’s this fog of abuse and manipulation that is talking. When you face abuse, when you have to confront it, when you have to make your way out of it, there’s no part of that that’s going to feel peaceful, even forgiving abust. You might have moments of peace where you’re doing the right thing, even though you feel terrible. When something is so atrocious, I love that you use the word atrocity. It is not going to feel good. There’s not going to be this like, Oh, I feel so good. This is perfect. I’m happy. This is fine. I’m making my way out of abuse. ## God’s Will Against Abuse **Anne:** It’s going to feel miserable until you can make it out of the fog. You shouldn’t let the misery and horror of realizing you’re abused stop you from making your way to safety and forgiving abuse. **Valerie:** That’s absolutely right. You said that is so well. It boggles the mind that one would believe such a horrible thing about God. That God wants you to stay in an abusive relationship. I opened my essay by talking about a true story of an acquaintance. Her husband would beat her up, and she would go to the hospital. And she would lie and say she’d fallen down the stairs or something. And her husband would say, don’t tell them. I’m so sorry. I’ll never do it again. And she would return to him. Then he beat her so badly she was in a coma. He was put in jail and her children were put in foster care. So tell me how God wanted that situation? Did God want her in a coma? Did God want these children in foster care? I don’t think so. If you really love your abuser, the worst thing you could do to their soul is let them keep abusing you. Let that sink in for a minute. That is the worst thing, because they are on the path to hell. Beating and abusing you is part of their progression to hell. **Anne:** Another Christian principle misapplied in this context is, love your enemies and do good to them that despitefully use you. Any more to say about that one? And forgiving abuse? **Valerie:** This is applicable if someone has insulted you or done it with some sort of microaggression. I think when we talk about abuse and atrocity, these are issues that imperil your own salvation. ## Scriptural Guidance On Dealing With Offenders **Valerie:** For example, not to fight scripture with scripture, but another scripture from Matthew, Jesus Christ talking. About forgiving abuse not reconciliation.. “Moreover, if thy brother shall trespass against thee, and then won’t change his ways, tell it to the church. And if he neglects to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican.” Remember that Jews didn’t have dealings with heathens and publicans. This means to put distance between you and the abusive person. Then here’s the one from Mark, which is one of my favorites. “Therefore, if thy hand offend thee, cut it off, or if thy brother offend thee and confess not and forsake not, he shall be cut off. It is better for thee to enter into life maimed than having two hands to go into hell. It is better for thee to enter into life without thy brother than for thee and thy brother to be cast into hell. “ “And again, if thy foot offend thee, cut it off. For he that is thy standard by whom thou walkest, if he become a transgressor, he shall be cut off. It is better for thee to enter halt into life than having two feet to be cast into hell. Therefore, let every man stand or fall by himself, not for another, not trusting another. If thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee, to show thee light, becomes a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.” “It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire. For it is better that thyself should be saved, than to be cast into hell with thy brother.” ## Forgiving Abuse: Gaslighting & Manipulation Techniques **Valerie:** This is Christ, our Savior, speaking very plainly here. He doesn’t want you to travel the road to hell. And if that means cutting off thy hand, or cutting off thy foot, or plucking out thy eye, which seems extreme and painful, I don’t think that we’re really being a disciple of Christ. **Anne:** This leads perfectly into the classic gaslighting or manipulation technique. When people confront abusers about their abuse. And they don’t want to take accountability, be honest, humble, or submit to God’s will. They begin to say things like, well, if you just loved me. Don’t you love me? You would be patient if you loved me. And you would wait while I got help. And I’m going to go to therapy. It’s just this grooming phase where they act repentant or like they love you. They’re saying, if you don’t allow me this, because if you don’t tolerate this while I “get better” or while I work on it. Then you’re not being Christlike, because you don’t have unconditional love. And you’re not forgiving abuse. I think the church misapplies the unconditional love idea in general. Can you talk about that? **Valerie:** Oh, that’s absolutely right. Yeah, I think we’ve all heard that phrase unconditional love. But you know what? It doesn’t appear in the scriptures at all. And we know that Christian theologian Russell M. Nelson has said that divine love can be called perfect. It is infinite, enduring and universal, it can not correctly be characterized as unconditional. That’s because God loves all his sons and daughters and wants them to gain salvation and eternal life and live with him forever. ## God’s Conditional Love **Valerie:** Absolutely, so in that sense, God’s love is universal, alright? However, it’s also true that if you’re headed off on the path to hell, God is there is also true. He’s not going to be happy about that and will not shower blessings upon you. He will withdraw his spirit, and he may even send you chastening punishments. But that’s actually love, isn’t it? Because God doesn’t actually want you to end up in hell. So he’s going to try to show you that this is a terrible, terrible path to be on. So, God’s love is universal. But if we’re talking about love in terms of loving favor and presence, God’s love is definitely conditional, right? Absolutely conditional. And I think that means we should emulate that. Which is, if your abuser says you need to stay with me while I’m going through this treatment program. You could say, no that wouldn’t be helpful to you. Because you would be tempted to abuse me. So why don’t I remove myself from the situation? You go through the rehab program, bring forth fruits of repentance, and I’ll be praying for you the whole time. And then sincerely mean it. Sincerely pray and fast for them. But you’re not doing anything loving. When you allow your abuser access to you, so that you can be abused again. That is not a loving thing to do to this person, who is clearly marching towards hell and not heaven. **Anne:** I want to say, you don’t have to set boundaries from a place of love. If you’re like, I don’t feel love for them, so I guess I can’t hold this boundary. You can do things from a safety standpoint, this is the truth about forgiving abuse. ## Setting Boundaries For Safety **Anne:** Don’t let someone manipulate you into thinking the only way to set a boundary or take a step towards safety. Is if you feel compassion toward your abuser. You don’t have to feel compassion, love, or anything to set a boundary. I’ve said this in another episode. If you witnessed a crime of a car hijacking, no one on the street next to you would say, oh, don’t call the police yet. Do you feel love for that carjacker? Are you doing this from a place of compassion? Because unless you call the police from a place of compassion and love, you shouldn’t call the police. No, it’s okay. You can just set the boundary. **Valerie:** And remember that God teaches us in a sense what love is like. Which is that when there is love, and that is accompanied by trust and respect, and all those wonderful things that should be part of love. Then that feels like you want to hug the other person. You want to love the other person, et cetera, et cetera. But remember, that love can also exist in the situation where you are not feeling like you want to be with them, or forgiving abuse. So let’s not confuse feeling soft, warm, and intimate towards somebody with loving them. For example, if one of my children hurts another child, I will say, look, I love you, but you’ve done something wrong here. And so you will have to change. You will have to do some restitution here. In the moment where I say, look, you’re going to have to repent. There’s going to be a punishment. You’ll have to make restitution. Can I still say I love them? Yes, yes I can. ## Forgiving Abuse: Tough Love & God’s Example **Valerie:** But let’s not confuse feeling warm and soft towards someone with loving them. Because we can do tough love. God does tough love to his children all the time. **Anne:** When the abuser uses that love word to gaslight or manipulate, they’re using it to say, you have to love me in the way I want to be loved. You have to overlook my bad behavior and tolerate my abuse. If you’re doing something else, you must not love me. But victims need to realize that’s just abuse. It’s not, am I being a good Christian? Am I loving him enough? That type of talk is abusive and only meant to manipulate you into tolerating bad behavior. It’s not meant to actually bring you closer together. **Valerie:** That’s absolutely right. And I’m so glad that You have mentioned that. **Anne:** I was talking to a victim, and she said I want to see him as God sees him. He is a child of God. And I said, well, read Alma 5, the wicked are seen as children of hell by God. Other places in the scriptures, it talks about don’t cast your pearls before swine, or like a dog to his vomit, or like a sow in the mire. And in my mind, helping her realize that he is wicked. And that this wickedness was going to harm her would get her to safety more quickly. **Valerie:** You know, I think that’s a really good point. I would feel no compunction about divorcing a child of God clearly on the path to hell. But I do think there’s a sense in which we must remember their humanity or our own humanity is lost. ## The Wicked Are Cast Out **Anne:** With those animal references like don’t cast your pearls before swine or like a dog to his vomit or references of someone being a child of hell. Being able to say the fruits of this person’s actions right now are dangerous. And they’re not healthy to me. I’m going to keep myself safe and observe from a super safe distance. In the scriptures, it does not say, and they were wicked and so we set their therapy appointments and we made sure that we dressed up and wore lipstick. It says, and they were wicked and cast out. If someone continues to exhibit the fruits of wickedness, then like that Alma 5 scripture, He commands us to cast them out. **Valerie:** That’s brilliant. **Anne:** Many women in this situation hope their abuser can see the light. What are the types of things they need to look for to see if the abuser truly has repented if he’s truly changed? **Valerie:** Yeah, the abuser must fully complete all the steps of repentance sincerely and bring forth fruit meet for repentance. And some crimes may be so awful that full completion of these requirements probably cannot even occur in this life. So how would you recognize sincere repentance? First of all, a recognition that you’ve abused. I think many abusers are simply unable to even recognize that they committed any sin or crime, and will blame their victims for whatever abuse happened. I think abuse is almost predicated on someone lacking any sense of personal responsibility at all. So absolutely a recognition that one has abused. Secondly, sincere remorse, great suffering always accompanies a recognition that you have abused someone. But I also know that some abusers can be insincerely remorseful. ## Sincere Repentance With Restitution **Valerie:** And so that I think is where, you know, uh, being in touch with the spirit helps. If you don’t think that person is sincere, they’re probably not. And it would probably be better for you to assume they’re not sincere. Confession, confessing to civil authorities, confessing to ecclesiastical authorities. If they can’t even do that, then it’s not sincere repentance. Restitution, that’s a big one where abusers will say, just forgive me, I won’t do it anymore. But you know, a sense of restitution. What kind of restitution would help make up for what you’ve done? Can you help repay the victim for what you’ve taken from them? And it’s possible that restitution cannot be made in this life, you know, for murder and so forth. We cannot make restitution in this life, but the abusers should be searching for a way to make that restitution. And then finally, true change. A repentant abuser will not be slipping back into abuse again. And if they do, and insist that you forgive them all over again, the abuser has not sincerely gone through the repentance process. **Anne:** Or that was just grooming. Where they were putting on a show to groom you. When you talk about confession, I know of many stories where the abuser talks to their clergy and says, hey, I have been abusing my wife. I’ve been gaslighting her. And the clergy will say, oh no, you haven’t. No, that’s not abuse. Or they’ll say I’ve been using pornography, and that’s abuse to my wife. And they’ll be like, no, you’re not. ## Forgiving Abuse: Bystanders Enabling Abusers **Anne:** Or I’m a addict. I’ve been using it a lot and lying about it. No, you’re not an addict. So obviously that is not going to help the abuser. Usually they only tell a partial truth. When there’s one rat, there’s 50. And so if clergy takes that partial truth and is like, you’re a good guy. What are you talking about? Instead of saying, whoa, this is serious. We need to see the whole iceberg here. We need to ferret out all the lies he’s told. **Anne:** Can you talk about why bystanders have such a difficult time supporting victims and in many cases end up accidentally enabling the abuser? **Valerie:** Again, in all the cases you’ve just mentioned, I believe the ecclesiastical authority was male. I think men are prone to give other men the benefit of the doubt, rather than other women. I do know one thing, that those things are heinous in the sight of God. That God will judge those ecclesiastical authorities with clarity and exquisite precision. So I think we need to believe in God’s justice for some of them. There was a terrible old legacy in my own church. which suggested that victims of rape needed to repent themselves. Because they were no longer chaste. And fortunately, my church has changed on this and given out very plain instruction that victims of sexual abuse are innocent. And that no one can take their chastity and innocence from them, that they hold it still. So I think that was an important change. ## Ecclesiastical Authorities & Abuse **Valerie:** I’m just aghast to hear what you said. Because as an ecclesiastical authority, I certainly would want to talk to the person who had been abused to figure out what I was dealing with here. Predators are skillful at gaslighting, not only their victims, but also gaslighting authorities. **Anne:** You quoted, Christian theologian, Richard G. Scott in your article. And he said, “Remember that predators are skillful at cultivating public appearance of piety to mask their despicable acts. Recognize that it is unlikely the perpetrator will confess his depraved acts. Painstakingly assure that every individual suffering from abuse receives appropriate help.” We have heard so many stories of the woman going in. She talks about the abuse, the clergy says, Oh, that’s awful. That’s terrible. I’ll help you. Let me call him in. So he calls him into the office. And then after he hears “his side of the story,” not realizing it’s all lies and manipulation is like, oh, I see what’s happening now. She’s controlling. She’s not doing what she’s supposed to do. It’s her problem. I get it now. You’re not an abuser. And so even though so many churches have policies that say we do not tolerate abuse because clergy are not educated about abuse. They’re not sure what to look for, they can’t recognize that that type of gaslighting to the clergy is not only abusive to the clergy, but also just piling on the abuse to the victim. In that thinking, okay, there’s two sides of the story, and the truth must be somewhere in the middle. They need to realize that a victim tells the truth. ## Training Clergy On Cognitive Biases **Anne:** And the abuser manipulates and lies. So the truth isn’t somewhere in the middle. There’s an absolute truth here, and they need to figure out what that is. Rather than believing a manipulator and liar. **Valerie:** I’m so glad you said that, because I believe many people make that mistake. They hear that one person says A, one person says C, so the truth is B. That’s not it. In abusive situations, the truth is probably either A or C. And that we do a disservice. to victims in abuse situations when we assume there’s some sort of middle ground of truth when dealing with abuse. That is so important. And I hope churches are training their clergy in these kinds of cognitive biases. Being male, believing that truth will be the middle ground between two counts. Unless they are, one of the most important things that can be done, and this certainly would be revolutionary in my own church, is that women need to sit in on these discussions also. The male perspective needs to be balanced by the female perspective, then I think it needs balancing in the case where we decide where truth lies. **Anne:** Absolutely, I always recommend that women report their husband’s abuse to clergy, either psychological, emotional, or their exploitative materials use. They take another woman with them who understands abuse into that meeting, that they do not go in alone. We’ve seen so many times that clergy will further abuse that victim. By saying, oh, well, are you having sex with them or are you making dinner or what are you doing? Take another woman with them to ensure she is not further harmed in that interaction. Which is happening all over the place in every denomination and religion. ## Forgiving Abuse: The Prodigal Son Misapplied **Anne:** We have women from every faith paradigm here, and it’s happening everywhere. So the last Christian principle misapplied here, in the context of abuse, is this prodigal son concept. Where, if you don’t forgive, meaning reconcile, they’re not talking about actual forgiveness here or forgiving abuse. They’re saying, if you don’t reconcile, if you don’t make sure you kill the fatted calf and welcome this guy home and give him hugs, the greater sin lies with you. Can you talk about why this principle is misapplied, and when it’s misapplied, it continues to put victims in harm’s way? **Valerie:** Oh, that’s great. Let’s look at the parable itself. Now, we can’t tell from the scriptures whether the prodigal son was abusing others or simply living some sort of riotous life. Nevertheless, while the son lived this riotous existence, the father in the parable didn’t chase his son. He didn’t offer to have him live at home and be provided for and enabled while he continued this type of life. Instead, the father waited in silence. We’re not told how long he had to wait. Maybe he had to wait for years. We are not told that there was even any contact between the father and the son during this time. But when the son turned around, when he repented of his foolishness. When he did retrace his steps back home, wanting only to be a servant and not to claim back his privileges. When that day came, his father ran out to meet him and embrace him. The father even held a big party to rejoice over his son’s return. Now, was the prodigal son restored to all his privileges, at least in this life? I don’t think so. I’d venture he probably wasn’t trusted with money anymore. ## Wait From A Distance To Observe **Valerie:** And he’d spent his inheritance. I don’t think the father carved out a separate inheritance for him. So even after sincere repentance, there may be some continuing restrictions or limitations. Based on a knowledge of the abuser’s weaknesses. But while the son is doing wrongfully, that love waited silently and at a distance . Not in a state of enabling or overlooking the bad behavior or running after the abusive person. I think we need to see the parable of the prodigal son for what it’s telling us. You will have to wait at a distance. Not have a full fledged relationship with someone involved in self destruction or other destruction. **Anne:** It shows his repentance, because he was willing to give up his “entitlements.” He’s willing to come back as a servant. If an abuser is unwilling to give up his entitlements, he feels entitled perhaps to intimacy, or [lack of intimacy](/lack-of-intimacy-in-marriage/). Maybe he feels entitled to lying, or maybe he feels entitled to a hot meal, whatever it is he feels entitled to, that he’s not willing to give up. Like, I won’t be abusive, but you have to have it with me every Wednesday. Or I’m not going to be abusive, but you need to make sure you lose 10 pounds. Or I’m not going to be abusive, but you need to treat me with respect, which means she won’t maybe ask him questions about where he’s been or what he’s doing. That lack of willingness to give up their entitlements is exemplified by the prodigal son willing to give up those entitlements. **Valerie:** Yes. That’s a brilliant point. He’s willing to give up it all, eating the pig’s scraps. He’s willing to be a servant and not a son anymore. ## Valerie’s Work On World Peace **Valerie:** That’s a form of restitution, isn’t it? To give up one’s entitlement. I think that’s a brilliant way to see it. **Anne:** You’ve written whole books on this, and you’ve given speeches. You have this concept that world peace is available if the sexes. If men and women can get along, and if abuse is eradicated. I hate to ask you to summarize all this body of work that you have done. But could you perhaps just leave us with this idea that peace within homes and peace between husbands and wives is a precursor to world peace? I think it is so interesting. And I’d love to leave our audience with your ideas on this. **Valerie:** Oh, you bet, absolutely. In fact, I wrote a book that just came out this year. It’s called *[The First Political Order, How Sex Shapes Governance and National Security Worldwide](https://www.btr.org/books/ "The First Political Order, How Sex Shapes Governance and National Security Worldwide")*. So if you would like the extended version, please pick up that book. But yeah, the first political order in any society is the sexual political order. It is the foundation for all human societies. Sometimes I ask my students to think of themselves as video game designers. And I say, I’m just going to give you two parameters, go make me a game. One is that within the society there are roughly two equal groups. And number two is that unless these two groups cooperate, there is no second round, everyone dies. And they say, well, you haven’t told us enough. They say, are these two groups like equals, or is one superior or one inferior? Who does the decision-making for the whole group? Is it one of the groups or both groups? How are conflicts resolved? By violence or compromise? ## Forgiving Abuse: Government Grant About Evidence **Valerie:** And who’s got access to the valuable resources? Is it basically one of the groups, or is it both of the groups? And I say, yep, that’s exactly right. Those are all political questions. And how any society answers those questions, in a sense, establishes the first political order. And that first political order will shape everything else that arises within that society. A first political order based on the subordination of women will be unstable, violent, corrupt, exploitative, and autocratic. Why? Because it’s built on a first political order at the level of every household in society. That’s domestic instability, domestic violence, domestic terror, domestic corruption, domestic exploitation, and domestic autocracy. It couldn’t be any other way. All right, so what your first political order is will determine what your society looks like in terms of violence and governance, and so forth. And there’ll be many other spillover effects. If you’ve created gender tasks so that perhaps women are responsible for safeguarding people’s health within the family, then if you subordinate women. You’re going to undercut the health of women, not only children, but also men. If you’ve gendered a task where women are responsible for making sure there’s food on the table for everybody each day. When you disempower women, that’s going to lead to food insecurity. So there are many different ramifications of a subordinative first political order. We received a four year, 1. 3 million grant from the U.S. Department of Defense in 2014. To look and see if there was empirical evidence what we were saying was true. That the subordination of women at household level led to worse nation state outcomes. In terms of violence, governance, terrorism, food insecurity, and economic performance, and you name it. ## Results Of Our Study **Valerie:** And so we did. It was a Herculean task, but we were able to examine over 160 different outcome variables on nation states. We were able to show that the subordination of women, even when controlling for other alternative hypotheses, was critically determinative in how poorly a nation would be on these outcomes. And so I think it’s true, is that what you do to your women, you do to your nation. And if you curse your women, you’re also choosing to curse your nation. This is fully in line with what I understand about God’s plan, which if God’s plan was an equal partnership between men and women and an equal loving and respectful partnership. Then to the degree that we warp that and pervert that and turn it into a subordinative hierarchy, we’ve undercut the basis of all God’s blessings. Including blessings such as peace and plenty. The Baha’i faith actually has a beautiful metaphor. They liken humankind to a bird with two wings, and they say the male wing has been strong, but the female wing has been injured and is weak. And therefore, the bird cannot fly. So we must strengthen and heal the female wing so that the bird can soar into the heavens. And I think that’s beautiful and encapsulates everything we’re saying. Which is that abusive of households will not prosper, and that subordination of women never leads to good outcomes. Not only for women, but also for children, and also for men and whole societies. There can’t be any peace on earth until there’s peace between men and women. ## Starting In Our Own Homes To Make The World Better **Anne:** I love that because I’ve been saying for years, if you want to do your part, you need to start in your own home and set boundaries around the abusive behavior in your own home. And that will make the world a better place. And also abuse and forgiving abuse is bigger than you. Societal scripting set up this situation, and religious scripting misapplied. And because of that, you’re up against a lot of misinformation and traditions that are not good for you. And if you want to make the world a better place, start with your own home. **Valerie:** Amen to that. **Anne:** Valerie, you are one of my heroes. I am so grateful that you came on today’s episode. You can find her book, [*The First Political Order*, and her other book, *Sex and World Peace*, on our website at btr.org/books.](https://www.btr.org/books/) We discussed at length today forgiving abuse and the article *[Forgiveness of Abuse and Atrocity, What It Is and What It Is Not. A guide for the perplexed Christian woman](https://squaretwo.org/Sq2ArticleCasslerForgivenessAbuse.html)*. Thank you so much for coming on today, Valerie. **Valerie:** My pleasure. And thank you for all the good work that you’re doing. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Narcissist Ex Won’t Leave Me Alone? 6 Things You Can Do Right Now](https://www.btr.org/narcissist-ex-wont-leave-you-alone/) **Published:** November 5, 2024 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** These 6 strategies can help you break free from your narcissist ex husband. **Content:** If your narcissist ex won’t leave you alone—even after the divorce—you know how exhausting it is to feel like there’s no real break, no matter how much space you try to create. Here are six powerful strategies you can use right now to create distance from a narcissistic ex-husband who won’t back off. As you’ll see in this interview with my guest Lee, these are real, battle-tested tools—clear, practical, and effective. If you’re married and quietly wondering if what you’re experiencing is emotional abuse, you don’t have to figure it out alone…take our [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/) for more clarity. ## 1. Believe Yourself You can believe yourself because he’s gonna lie about you and about everything. For example, many women send clear messages about like pickup times, pick up locations, and he’ll message back and say, “You don’t communicate with me. You never tell me what’s going on.” I had to really anchor myself in reality and to do that, I did number two. ## 2. Get Everything in Writing I limited all communication to a parenting app, and I used our Family Wizard. There’s others out there. For me, it was a game changer because there was a calendar, an info bank, everything I needed to keep everything in one place. It didn’t magically change the outcome of my custody case, but it did keep me grounded in reality, which is what I really needed. So, no more phone calls. No more casual conversations. **Everything goes through written communication**. ## 3. Use Strategic COMMUNICATION Knowing how to anticipate what he’s going to say and then, what specific words and phrases to use in response will protect you and get you out of his cycle of chaos. I’ll be covering some of the strategies I teach in [The Living Free Workshop](/livingfree/) later in this interview, as Lee shares how she used them in her situation. ## 4. Learn Strategic Boundaries They are things that you can do to protect yourself with literally no words and no communication. Say he’s stepping on your foot over and over, and you keep telling him, “Hey, please stop stepping on my foot,” and you go to therapy about him stop stepping on your foot. And he keeps doing it. It’s like wearing steel toed boots. You don’t have to explain it to him or announce it. You just put them on and protect your foot, no words required. ## 5. Focus on YouRSELF AND THE LIFE YOU WANT TO CREATE He is going to do everything he can to make that impossible, because he is always trying to get your attention by doing crazy things. I remember standing in my kitchen and I was like, I want to help my kids with their homework. I wanna be present with my kids. And the notifications on my phone were like blowing up in that moment. I just turned it off and focused on the thing that I wanted to do that day. As I started to focus on what I wanted rather than his chaos, I really felt a shift. You deserve more than just getting through the day. You deserve to rebuild a life that feels steady, peaceful, and yours again. Start small. It doesn’t have to be dramatic to be powerful. ![Narcissist Ex Won't Leave Me Alone? 6 Things You Can Do Right Now ](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Narcissist-Ex-Wont-Leave-You-Alone.webp "Narcissist Ex Wont Leave You Alone")## Transcript: When Your Narcissist Ex Won’t Leave You Alone **Anne:** A member of the BTR community, we’re going to call her Lee, is on today’s episode. She’s going to be sharing her story. And then also how she implemented the strategies in the [Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). Welcome Lee. **Lee:** Hi, thanks for having me. **Anne:** Many women in this situation go through years and years of emotional abuse and psychological abuse and they don’t even realize it. So let’s talk about your experience. You married really young. In the beginning did you realize it was abuse? **Lee:** No, I did not. Not until pretty much in my mid 30’s. I got married at 19 and we were really young. so I thought it was just a maturity thing and that eventually we’d get past that. There was also addiction and again I thought that was a just a thing. That we would be able to at some point get over once we grew up. ## I Thought Divorce Would Remove Me From My Ex-Husband’s Chaos **Anne:** What were some of the things that he was choosing? **Lee:** He really struggled throughout our entire marriage with exploitative material. Unfortunately, it just became a bigger and bigger problem. It was always in our home. I think I just became immune to that part of it. So I thought, Oh, as soon as we grew up, he’ll stop drinking and looking at it. **Anne:** A lot of victims have that feeling. Like okay, once he can get this thing under control, then he’s not going to act like this anymore. That’s hard to recognize that they are experiencing [betrayal trauma in marriage](/betrayal-trauma-in-marriage/). That all of these behaviors are abusive. They’re not going to get better. What do you think was the biggest contributing factor to not recognize it was abuse throughout those years? ## I Didn’t Recognize How Comparing Myself To Other Women Kept Me From Seeing The Truth **Lee:** Comparison, and I feel like so many women do this, and this is something that I am so glad we get to talk about today, because I’ve been thinking a lot about it as I hear different stories from friends and family members. Just the idea that someone else’s situation is worse than yours. Or your life isn’t that bad because you have a nicer home, or my life isn’t that bad because he doesn’t say this to me. Or he comes home at a decent hour. Hearing other people’s stories and finding one thing that might have been better in my life than someone else’s. It made me assume that it was still okay to stay in that relationship with my narcissist ex. **Anne:** That makes sense to me. What were the things that you thought were better? ## When My Narcissist Ex Won’t Leave Me Alone It’s Because He Wants My Pity **Anne:** What are the things you are proud of? **Lee:** It’s crazy because you don’t see the things that are in your relationship at that time. He might have done the dishes one night. And I took that one night and pulled it along for everything else. He never cussed me out or called me a name. Even though he was really unsupportive, he was very generous with his time. **Anne:** So, at times you’re thinking, well, he doesn’t scream at our kids, so he must be a good guy. Or he didn’t scream that one time, or the other night he was great, so I’m lucky. A lot of women don’t realize he’s abusive because they think, I’m so lucky. He’s such a great guy, that’s really common. **Lee:** I also don’t think women realize how much effort and work they put in to make their spouse a good guy. And what I mean by that is. A lot of the things I was proud of were what I was doing, not him. I would make sure we were at family gatherings. And also made sure our kids looked good. I made sure we were going to church on time. And you know, all those things that were important to me. Things that I felt were essential to building a good family, I did. Instead of looking at how much work I was putting in I included him in that. I made it like it was his, like these were his accomplishments. I think that that’s where my mind got a little bit skewed. Like we had a good family and I looked at it like that. But I didn’t realize that so much of it was my own work and wasn’t really the work of my narcissist ex. ## I Felt Shame & Pressure To Communicate With Him **Anne:** Yeah. A lot of women do that. They attribute characteristics to him that actually she has. That comparison is interesting because there’s always going to be someone who seems like they have it worse. So you think well all marriages must have problems. But the problems we have seem “manageable” or something like that. So here you are thinking these are just maturity things or that you’re so lucky in some ways. Were there any other factors that kept you from seeing the abuse? **Lee:** Shame. I married really young and a lot of people questioned that. Also I had family and friends both tell me I was too young. I felt the pressure to stay and keep it together. I think that’s why I kept it together and stayed a lot longer. And I didn’t want to admit to anybody that I failed. **Anne:** You weren’t failing. You had a spouse that was failing, but it feels like that when you’re being emotionally abused. Because you think everything is your fault, right? Or that you’re responsible for everything . So that’s common as well. ## My Narcissist Ex Won’t Leave Me Alone, I Need Support **Lee:** I had just a few friends that I would communicate with about it. The problem with those friends, even though they were a good outlet for a release. They didn’t really understand my situation because they didn’t have a spouse like that. I mean, they knew it was bad, they felt sorry for me. I could feel that they understood it. They gave me the space to be able to talk to them, which I appreciate. But they just weren’t in the same situation. And a lot of times, the friends that I did communicate with had pretty decent marriages. It made me feel again, like I needed to be more like them. I needed to maybe not complain as much, you know? **Anne:** Okay, so how do you recognize that it is abuse **Lee:** I ended up in a Facebook group with one of the members of [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/), and she was very open about it, which I’m so grateful for. And I’m so grateful for women who are open about it. The group that we were in had actually nothing to do with this topic. She was just open and shared a lot of her personal life. Again, I’m so grateful for that. And the BTR community, opened up a whole new world for me. I started to understand that everybody’s looks different. Even still then at the very beginning. I don’t think I was ready to let go of the idea of keeping my marriage together. ## My Turning Point: When He Texted Me Emotionally Abusive Videos **Lee:** Then it started to get really bad, my husband sent me some really abusive videos. Videos of him talking to me in a very violent and perverse way. I didn’t know what to do. I finally sent them to the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group](/group/). Within 10 minutes I had a whole group of women together supporting me and helping me through this. **Anne:** With the support of the women in the BTR Group. Is this the moment you realized that woah, this is really serious? [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) **Lee:** I really believe that was the moment. It became very clear to me. I always felt like maybe I was being dramatic. So when someone actually got to witness it and said to me, this is not okay. Then they said, this is abusive. I realized that it was time, probably, to make a big change and to open up and start sharing a little bit more of my experiences with my narcissist ex. I wanted the BTR community to understand the magnitude. ## My Ex Won’t Leave Me Alone, It Creates So Much Chaos **Lee:** It seems so big at the time and so scary. I worried about his reaction, my finances, and my kids. Also about this home we just rented together what would we do. We just got a new dog and there were so many things that I was worried about. I was scared. Each step in [divorcing a narcissist](https://www.btr.org/divorcing-a-narcissist/ "divorcing a narcissist") was a step that I didn’t think I was capable of doing. And they told me I could. And so I kept taking that step. **Anne:** What about your real life friends and family? What did they think? **Lee:** I had left him seven different times before this time. He just kept pulling me back because he wouldn’t leave me alone. I think family and the friends that I opened up to were hesitant to believe it this time too. They were excited, all of them were going to continually support me. **Anne:** Let’s talk about the first few months after you left. How did you get through that time? **Lee:** So that was a really, really hard time for me. I would make fun of the the situation, by saying I lived in a house of depression. After work I would come home and lay on the couch. I watched the same movies over and over and over again every night. Lord of the Rings and Forrest Gump. I was just really sad and fearful and I didn’t know if I could really do it financially. It didn’t feel real to me because I had tried so many times ## When My Narcissist Ex Won’t Stop Contacting Me Little Miracles Can Give You Hope **Lee:** While I was living in that house of depression, I didn’t really feel like I had a lot to live for. Then I bit into a delicious peach. I started looking for tender mercies. That’s what held me up along with the women from the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group](/group/). Constantly looking for those tender mercies and finding those simple things. A lot of times it feels so dark. And we feel like we need something of a greater magnitude to take us out of that darkness. Instead of looking for those little things, that speck of light almost. And I do want to share one significant tender mercy. It’s a night I came home exhausted. I just wanted a bowl of cereal and a clean spoon. Like I said before, I hadn’t really been keeping up with my housework. There’s probably a lot of dishes and I just wanted there to be that one clean spoon. When I opened up the drawer, there was one last clean spoon. I just remember thinking, thank you. Because that’s all I needed was a bowl of cereal and a clean spoon. I feel like it’s so important for women to hang on to those little moments every single day. To try to find something in their life that is small but so significant. ## The Right Strategy To Live Free From My Narcissistic Ex **Anne:** Oh, I love that story in the [Living Free Workshop](/livingfree/). We have an exercise about this. We call it the best possible tasks And best possible moments. Here you’re calling it a tender mercy. So that’s awesome because those little things. can really give us a feeling of peace. There’s another part of Living Free, where we’re focusing on our dreams, and what we want. Was there anything that you decided, Hey. I have a goal and I’m going to accomplish it. ## Focusing On Personal Goals Brings Peace When Your Narcissist Ex Won’t Leave You Alone **Lee:** I’ve had so many, but the one biggest one, this is crazy, I painted my piano pink. In my relationship, I was always told that I couldn’t do anything, I would always want to do these projects. And he was a carpenter and he would always tell me that they were too hard. If I explained to him what I was going to do, he would tell me it wouldn’t turn out right. He was always saying that it would look like garbage. So I was scared to do anything. I started painting this piano, I thought it was going to look like garbage. Because that’s what I had been told that anything I did was going to look like. And it is so beautiful. I love that piano and it turned out so good and I moved into a permanent home this year, too. I want to remodel and do a little interior decorating that I’ve never gotten to do either, really. To really learn how to play that piano that I just finished painting and then set better boundaries for myself. I’m trying to work on boundaries. Then just strengthen my faith in my home and in myself, continue on with that. ## What I Told My Friends Who Were Going Through The Same Thing **Anne:** Do you have any advice for women who might have the same fears that you did? **Lee:** Yeah, you need to find support. [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/) is a great group for that. And I know I’m on this podcast. I want everyone to know I’m not pitching this because I’m on here. It changed my life, being a part of that group. I do not think I would be able to get out of my situation without their support. And that support hasn’t ended. That support continues on and it just keeps growing. I haven’t ended those relationships, I’ve only grown and extended those relationships. As my situation changes, I just meet new people and new women and new friendships. That I’ve created in that group. The other thing is what we talked about in the beginning, and that’s don’t compare your situation to someone else’s. ## I Found Out Some People Weren’t On My Team **Lee:** That is so important and something that I wish all women would stop doing. I don’t think women recognize when it really, truly is doing them so much harm. Women should not look at someone else and say their situation’s worse, and mine isn’t. I would encourage women to look more at, is the behavior acceptable? Are they happy? Is what their husband is doing in line with their beliefs and standards? And if they’re not, that’s the problem. It doesn’t need to be someone else’s standards or beliefs. It’s what they’re comfortable with. I wish a lot more women would look at that. **Anne:** Meaning I’m not okay with exploitative material in my home, or I’m not okay with yelling, this is not acceptable for me in my home, and I don’t feel safe. **Lee:** You also might find someone that says that it’s okay. I had a lot of friends tell me that, like, why was I upset? Or, I had people tell me that it’s okay that he’s drinking, we’re having a good time, those kind of things. Again, that put a lot of shame and guilt on me. Because I thought I was taking the fun out of our lives. Or, I thought there was something wrong with me that I thought that it was wrong, and maybe it was okay. Maybe it was beneficial to our relationship. ## How Personal Standards Can Protect You When Your Narcissist Ex Won’t Stop Creating Chaos **Anne:** Having the confidence , to think other people might feel differently, but this is my home. This is my life. I deserve to feel safe. I want to be able to live a life that is consistent with my own values. **Lee:** Yes, absolutely. I really wish I would have looked at those and told myself I wasn’t willing to accept that or put up with it. Now I’m going to be 35 and I know that there are so many things that I’m just not willing to put up with. Even though someone might tell me that they’re not significant enough or they’re not really a problem, I will go by my own standards. That’s something that I’ve learned and would like to tell my younger self. Hey, don’t go by the world’s standards, I would go by my standards. **Anne:** Even some women don’t go by, maybe, your church’s standards. What I mean by that is, people who might say, well, you just need to love and serve and then everything will be okay. Don’t judge or something. Those types of things that an external church or a therapist or somebody might put on you. To be like, no, tolerate this for some reason, or be patient with it for some reason. I deserve to feel safe in my own home. ## This Analogy Helped Me More Than Anything **Lee:** What you’re comfortable with, right? It’s what you’re comfortable with. Would you be comfortable with a rock in your shoe? And would you continue to walk with a rock in your shoe? Or would you remove that shoe and take out that rock? Even if someone said, you could walk a little bit longer, it’s okay. No, you’re uncomfortable with that rock in that shoe. You would take the time to sit down, and take off that shoe and take out that rock. **Anne:** If someone said but don’t you feel bad for the rock? What’s the rock gonna do? How is that rock gonna get around without you? You can be like, the rock can do whatever it wants. It’s not going to be in my shoe. It’s an adult rock. It can handle it. Me taking it out has nothing to do with the rock. Whatever helps women to be like, I can do this, is what works. It’s different for everyone. ## The Best Support I Could Find Got Me Through The Hardest Parts **Lee:** I just want to say, because I know they’re gonna listen to this, to all my [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/) women. That helped me through this, and the ones that I’m gonna meet in the future. I am so grateful for each and every single one of you. I really don’t think I could be where I am. And I don’t think I could be going where I’m going without their continual support. So I’m so grateful. **Anne:** Have you found that being away from him has enabled you to grow stronger? **Lee:** Absolutely. It has made me recognize it more, too. I actually have been dealing a lot with anger lately, as well. There’s those five or seven, grief cycles. I am in the cycle of anger. The anger for me is a protection. It’s like a shield. The problem with showing anger to an abuser is, it gets them the same amount of attention they’re seeking. **Anne:** They’re not looking for peace. When peace becomes your absolute top priority. ## Using The Most Effective Strategies To Get Your Narcissist Ex To Leave You Alone **Anne:** Many women start using the strategies and the [BTR Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). So you were really interested in implementing strategies to get some peace in your life. First of all, let’s talk about what your concerns were. **Lee:** A lot of the women in the group I know experienced some alterations of reality. Because of the situations that their husbands have put them in. They like to twist your thoughts. I lived in that false reality. Anytime I had concerns where I knew something was real. He would alter my reality, confuse me and just convince me. That what I was thinking was completely illogical or not accurate. As I went through my divorce he continued to do this, to manipulate things. He continued to tell me that I said what I never said. Or things that I did say he would say I never said. That was really difficult to live like that. Always questioning my own reality and not knowing if what I was thinking was actually real. It was very confusing. ## Documenting His Ongoing Behavior When Your Narcissist Ex Won’t Stop His Abuse **Lee:** So, why I wanted to go into this is because I needed documentation of what I was saying and what he was saying. So I could trust myself almost more. And trust that what I knew to be true was truth and I had that evidence in writing. **Anne:** So you have this evidence that he’s gaslighting you, emotionally and psychologically abusing you. You have this evidence that he’s trying to alter your reality. You’re thinking, I can’t communicate with him in any way, shape or form without him lying to me. Without him twisting the truth, without things going sideways. **Lee:** Yeah, without crazy making because that’s what it was. **Anne:** What were your concerns ? You’re thinking oh that would be amazing if I could stop interacting with him, but I’m scared it won’t work. Because what were the things at the beginning before you decided? Hey, I’m gonna try this out that held you back from even considering it at first. **Lee:** When I tried to implement a little bit of this in the past, he said he was computer illiterate. Or he didn’t really know how to use technology. The second was that he would use it to not communicate certain things about the children. While they were with him. Again, it would fall back onto, oh I was computer illiterate. So I forgot to tell you that I was going to drop them off later. Whether maybe not telling me that the kids were uncomfortable and wanted to come home. He would use it as an excuse to say oh, sorry couldn’t communicate with you. I think that was my biggest fear was with the children. That if there was an emergency, how would we contact each other? ## Overcoming Fears Helps Leave Behind The Chaos When Your Narcissistic Ex Won’t Stop **Anne:** You were like, I really want to do this, but it just seems impossible. And I remember talking to you on the phone. And I said, the first step is believing that it’s possible. To know that you can. And then you just have to figure out the how. How did that change in mindset from, I don’t know, I can’t do this. How did that change of mindset help you to start actually looking for solutions? **Lee:** How that helped me is I took away the impossibility of it and thought I need to do this. It wasn’t even that I can or can’t do it. I needed to do it. For my own sanity. I had to start implementing this. Otherwise, I just knew that this was going to be a constant cycle and a constant battle. I was going to constantly be questioning my own reality and I would just stay stuck in that cycle of his manipulation and abuse. So it just came to the point where there was no option. There was no choice. I had to do it. **Anne:** So when you decide, now I know I’m doing this. Now I’m in the problem solving, how do I do it phase? What were the first things that you needed to consider before implementing it? **Lee:** One of the first things that I needed to consider was. In case of an emergency, if something happened while the kids were in his care or my care. How would we communicate to each other? And I thought of a plan immediately. It wasn’t even that hard. ## What Happens If I Don’t Really Want My Narcissistic Ex To Leave Me Alone? **Lee:** All of a sudden it was fixed. I think that was my biggest hurdle. If I were to be honest with myself I think it was losing that connection with him. Even though I was going through this divorce process. Even though I was so badly hurt for so many years by him. There was still a connection that I had to him, losing that was somewhat painful for me. I sold a car and even that had a connection to him that was painful for me to let go of in a weird way. The reality sank in. That can go two ways when that reality sets in. No hope of it getting better. That can lead to wanting to run back to that bad situation. That could lead to growth. ## Actions To Take To Distance Yourself From Your Narcissist Ex **Lee:** There was a pivotal moment where I knew I needed to do your [Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). One catastrophic day my son had actually had a confrontation with him and I went to pick him up. We had an altercation outside of his family’s house. He did end up getting a little bit physical. Later on that evening, he took my daughters. And told them he was dropping them off in the middle of nowhere. When I came to pick up my son, my narcissist ex wouldnt’t leave, I talked to him and I rolled down my window just a little bit. He was able to reach in the car and take my phone. During our marriage he was really obsessed with my phone too. He would wake me up in the middle of the night to go through my phone and keep me up all hours. He was really obsessive about it. And so it didn’t surprise me that he went for my phone again. When I got out of the car to grab it from him, he started smacking me. Telling me to get away. Eventually, I gave up and thought, you know what, this isn’t worth it. I’m gonna walk away, and he threw the phone after that. It was after that day that I thought, you know what? I cannot live in this anymore. ## Can I Get a Restraining Order Against a Narcissistic Ex Who Won’t Leave Me Alone? **Lee:** So, that’s when I implemented what you had encouraged me to do. But I don’t know if you remember during that conversation. The other thing that you encouraged me to do, which was to get a restraining order. Finally I get that implemented and these two things came together. **Anne:** Let’s talk about some common concerns I bring up in the workshop. Were you concerned that he wouldn’t participate? I had a smile on my face when you said this, because they can’t not participate. If you block them on your phone, there’s nothing they can do about it. They can’t call you. They could call you from another number. But if you have a boundary for yourself that you never answer the phone, if it’s an unknown caller. You just wait for them to leave a message. If you block them on your email and delete your social media accounts. There’s nothing they can do about that. **Lee:** How the protective order works here in Arizona is once they grant you that protective order. They send it to the sheriff’s department. It just automatically goes out. So it takes away you having to sit there debating should I, or shouldn’t I. Once it’s done, it’s done. During that time, I was able to notify him that we would no longer be communicating verbally. Everything would go through email and he did put up a fight. This was through texts and he did put up a fight and say, that’s not going to work. I don’t do good with electronics. Now we’ve been doing this since June. He can email just fine. He is not computer illiterate and is perfectly capable. ## My Narcissistic Ex Won’t Leave Me Alone — It’s Pushing Me to the Edge **Lee:** Again, it goes back to him altering my reality or confusing me or making me believe something that’s not true. He had convinced me that he doesn’t understand, he’s not good with electronics. And that was part of my hesitation, was him convincing me he couldn’t do this. So there was no way. Like, how was I going to be able to communicate with him? When he didn’t know how to really write an email, which is what he told me. And it ended up being not true. So, again, it goes back to that crazy making, and me questioning myself. And is this possible, based off of his lies. So he can’t call me and can’t text me. And isn’t supposed to be within a certain feet of me. He can only email me. If he needs to contact the kids, they have their own separate phones, so he is able to communicate with them. But if he has any specific questions for me, or we’re making plans, it all has to go through email. I mean it’s almost impossible to know [how to leave a toxic relationship with kids](/how-to-leave-a-toxic-relationship-with-kids/). ## I Hate That He Won’t Leave Me Alone, But I Still Miss Him, What’s Wrong With Me? **Anne:** And how have those been? Have they been gaslighting? **Lee:** This is something interesting. Most people think if you go through email, it takes away all the manipulative communication. But it actually doesn’t. You have to still be very aware and very careful. **Lee:** In the beginning, they were very emotionally filled. Both of us trying to express our hurt and our pain. **Anne:** I don’t think he was really trying to express his hurt and his pain. As much as he was manipulating your emotions. **Lee:** Oh, of course, yes. And in me, I was trying to express hurt and pain and it just didn’t work. Now I try to answer everything with what you taught. They’ve been incredibly helpful, especially when dealing with my narcissistic ex who refuses to leave me alone. That’s it. No more than that. I have been doing that for a while now. There’ve been two times recently where I have gone out of my way to email him. And to address things that are not appropriate to address anymore. After that, I knew I made a mistake and then I got back on course. I do not need to go into these pages of explanations or reasonings or even comforting him. I just need to respond very simply. Another thing you taught that I love is the broken record. ## The Broken Record Technique: A Strategy For When Your Narcissist Ex Won’t Leave You Alone **Lee:** One of the things is right now he’s on supervised visitation and he keeps asking me to pick up the kids. I have one line that I say to that, I’m sorry, you can’t do that right now. Then he’ll say something like, well, it would just be easier and nobody else has time to pick them up today. And when my narcissist ex won’t leave, I just say, I’m sorry, but you can’t do that right now. He might come back with something else. I just keep repeating it until finally he’s exhausted and doesn’t even ask. And it’s just that you pick a line, you stick with that line. And every single time they come at you, you use the same line over and over again. Until finally they run out of questions. They run out of things to say, and they’re exhausted. **Anne:** Yeah. The Living Free Workshop clearly explains why and how to use them with real life examples from real messages. From women like you who have applied it in situations with their narcissist ex. Anything you see now that “shows” he can communicate as a good person is grooming and manipulation. This and a lot of other strategies can apply when your narcissist ex won’t leave you alone. **Lee:** There still is a big part of me that hopes that he is a good person. But like what you’re saying, there is trickery to it. Yeah, I always tell people. I can’t really give him anything because he is a give an inch take a mile kind of a guy. ## Is It Okay to Block My Narcissistic Ex if He Won’t Leave Me Alone? **Anne:** How has it felt to be free of his phone calls? **Lee:** So good, I don’t have that pit in my stomach anymore when I see his name. My phone isn’t something to fear anymore. I’m not sitting there wondering if he’s sent me a text message on my phone. Now I can go to my phone and it’s not a place of worry. The other thing is so much comfort in knowing the things that I say and the things that he says. Also being able to go back and know that my reality and what I know is true. I have that evidence now, and that is such a gift for me because I really do struggle with that still. Even outside of our marriage, I really do struggle with confidence in myself and trusting myself still. Because of 15 years of somebody questioning my truth or making me question my truth. **Lee:** Now. Again, it’s that rebuild. I’m rebuilding that trust in myself and knowing that what I’m saying is truth because I have proof. ## When He Won’t Stop Messaging Me Is There Some Type of Template I Can Use To Get Him To Stop? **Anne:** So, if you’re interested in using the strategies in the [Living Free Workshop](/livingfree) to eliminate that fear and worry from having to communicate. And have the proof that Lee is talking about. These concepts will work for women in any situation, even if you’re still married. We describe it when a protective order is in place, but you don’t need a protective order to implement them. You don’t have to be separated. Maybe you’re co-parenting, you can just know the concepts. and then use them in whatever way works for you. Having strategy makes a big difference when you’re trying to [heal from emotional abuse. ](/heal-from-emotional-abuse/) ## When Your Narcissist Ex Won’t Leave You Alone, Enroll In The Living Free Workshop Anne: If your narcissist ex won’t leave you alone, [The Living Free Workshop](/livingfree/) uses an amazing workbook. If you want to you can dig really deep level and process things. Some women don’t even use the workbook the first time through, or they never use it. They just run through all the videos super fast and they don’t even answer the questions below the videos. There’s no right or wrong way to do it. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [The Best Way To Explain Betrayal Trauma](https://www.btr.org/best-way-to-explain-betrayal-trauma/) **Published:** June 25, 2024 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Here's the best way to explain betrayal trauma. **Content:** The picture book *[Trauma Mama Husband Drama](https://amzn.to/4l55MxR)* is the best way to explain betrayal trauma to someone who doesn’t quite “get it”. If you’re feeling ignored, dismissed, and blamed for your husband’s infidelity, you’re not alone. ## *Trauma Mama Husband Drama* Is The Best Way To Explain Betrayal Trauma The term “betrayal trauma” is not knows or misunderstood in many circles. Anne knows this and wanted to help women give a name to the mental, physical, and emotional symptoms that women suffer when their partners abuse them through betrayal. Using ***Trauma Mama, Husband Drama*** to understand and give a voice to the emotions they are experiencing may be helpful to victims of betrayal trauma. ![What is Betrayal Trauma Like](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/what-is-betrayal-trauma-1.webp "What is Betrayal Trauma")## *Trauma Mama, Husband Drama* Uses Illustration When Words Don’t Work Victims of betrayal know that the devastation of betrayal can surpass any attempt at verbal description. When words are too hard, illustrations can help victims process pain. > It was a lot harder than I thought to illustrate some of these concepts visually. One of the pictures is of Dad, and it’s this vortex of abuse where sometimes he’s sweet and sometimes he’s on a rampage. We were trying to figure out how to do that, and it was a difficult concept. A friend of mine said, ‘What about a tornado?’ so we did a tornado. > > Anne Blythe, founder of Betrayal Trauma Recovery ![I Need Help to Explain Betrayal Trauma](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/help-explain-betrayal-trauma.webp "Help Explain Betrayal Trauma")Furthermore, by making it a picture book, Anne made it easier for women in trauma to understand its contents and more accessible to clergy, family, and friends who might be less inclined to read a lengthy book about abuse. ## Betrayal Trauma Recovery Empowers Victims Of Betrayal At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we will never stop finding new ways to help victims of betrayal find safety and healing. We know that women need a safe space to process their trauma, share their stories, ask questions, and make connections with other victims who get it. The [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group](https://www.btr.org/group/ "Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group") meets daily in multiple time zones, offering victims the validation, support, and compassion they need. Join today. ![the Best Explanation of Betrayal Trauma](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/The-Best-Explanation-of-Betrayal-Trauma.webp "the Best Explanation of Betrayal Trauma")## Transcript: The Best Way To Explain Betrayal Trauma > **This episode follows Jenna’s Story:** > 1: **[Is It Wrong To Check Your Husband’s Phone? – Jenna’s Experience](https://www.btr.org/is-it-wrong-to-check-your-husbands-phone/)** > 2: *The Best Way To Explain Betrayal Trauma* (THIS EPISODE) > 3: [*How To Recognize Victim Blaming – Jenna’s Story*](https://www.btr.org/divorcing-a-narcissist/) > 4: [*When He Lies About Small Things, This Brilliant Analogy Offers Insight*](https://www.btr.org/husband-lies-about-small-things/) **Anne:** So today, a member of our community, I’ll call Jenna is with me. She follows me on Instagram, where we interact quite a bit. She’s amazing, I’m so grateful for her. Welcome. **Jenna:** Hi Anne, thanks for having me. **Anne:** I wrote the book *Trauma Mama Husband Drama,* because all the abuse books are thick, big old books. And if you hand somebody, one of these books, like clergy or a therapist, or your mom. It’s so overwhelming. My book *Trauma Mama Husband Drama* is very simple. It is the best way to explain betrayal trauma to someone who doesn’t get it, because it’s pictures and then there’s infographics in the back. I sent one of these books to Jenna. [You can a copy of my book, *Trauma Mama Husband Drama* on Amazon.](https://www.btr.org/books/) **Jenna:** I first saw the cover, and the illustrations are beautiful. And of course, I read the title *Trauma Mama Husband Drama.* I kind of chuckled to myself, because I’ve read the Llama Mama, Pajama, whatever that book is, to my son a million times. ![Helping You Explain Betrayal Trauma to Someone](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/helping-you-explain-betrayal-trauma.webp "Helping You Explain Betrayal Trauma")And I liked the simplicity of the text, but also the accuracy of everything. I felt like it portrayed exactly how I felt in my experience of betrayal trauma. I felt like it was a clear explanation for going through [how infidelity](https://www.btr.org/how-does-infidelity/) and betrayal trauma felt as the wife of an addict. ## Traditional Abuse Books Are Not The Best Way To Explain Betrayal Trauma **Anne:** So because I interact with thousands of women on Facebook and Instagram, YouTube and Tik TOK, women share their stories with me. They also obviously come on the podcast to share their stories. So I hear thousands of women’s stories. I continue to hear new stories every day. So I have both a very broad overview of what it’s like to go through betrayal trauma, and then I understand it on a very specific intimate level because I went through it. But then I also hear all the details of other women’s stories. So my goal for this book was to explain betrayal trauma to somebody who might not understand it. **Jenna:** Absolutely, because you interact with so many women every day, you hear the stories of women with so many experiences and backgrounds. And I felt like this book captured the themes. I know that women with different experiences can still relate, even though the stories themselves can be so different. There’s so much overlap. ![Why is It So Hard to Explain Betrayal Trauma to Someone](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/why-is-it-so-hard-to-explain-betrayal-trauma.webp "Why is It So Hard to Explain Betrayal Trauma")**Anne:** So I gave one of those big old abuse books that explains all the details about abuse to my ecclesiastical leader. And my big chunky non-fiction book will be coming out soon. And I love reading books about abuse, and I love writing books about abuse, and I want everyone to read my non-fiction book. But I find that people who haven’t been through it aren’t like super excited to spend 10 hours reading a big nonfiction book about abuse. ## *Trauma Momma Husband Drama* Is The Best Way To Explain Betayal Trauma, It’s Short & Simple **Anne:** This book is so different, because it’s immediately inviting. You want to open it up and look at the pages. And I hope women will want to purchase multiple copies for their clergy, maybe for their therapists, maybe their local library. Because I think a book like this that actually illustrates the emotions with pictures. Is so much more motivating for people to read than a 400 page nonfiction abuse book. **Jenna:** I definitely think it will make a difference. Just being able to physically hand someone a book you can read fairly quickly. And like you said, you see the visual story happening, and the text is simple. Having a tool that’s simple and direct will make it easier to share with our friends, with our family, our clergy. And it will make it more likely that they’re actually going to read the book and understand what we’re going through. ![What is the Best Way to Explain Betrayal Trauma](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/the-best-way-to-explain-betrayal-trauma.webp "the Best Way to Explain Betrayal Trauma")It’s a simple message, and we just hand it over, and it makes it clear and concise for the reader. **Anne:** This type of abuse is complex. When you explain it the first time, most people are like, no, no. They kind of roll their eyes and shake their heads. And they’re like no, no, this is not abuse. Pornography use is not abusive, whatever, and then maybe they think about it, and then maybe they come back. In fact, all of us went through that same thing where we were like, “No, he’s a good guy, he just has this problem. I don’t know what you’re talking about.” So this book enables people to suspend their disbelief enough to let it sink in a little bit more than perhaps a conversation might. The [powerful truth is this is emotional abuse to his wife.](https://www.btr.org/7-powerful-truths-about-emotional-abuse/ "powerful truth is this is emotional abuse to his wife.") ## Explaining Betrayal Trauma Useing Illustrations & Infographics To Make The Content Easy To Understand **Anne:** This book includes a bunch of infographics at the end about why it’s abusive, really illustrating in visual ways this type of abuse. Like there’s one infographic specifically on coercion and what that means. There are infographics on the four pillars of abuse and the abuse cycle. Those educational pieces help tie it together in logical ways. Due to that, II think it kind of sidesteps what happens maybe in a conversation. When people hear the word abuse and put their guard up. **Jenna:** Yeah, I agree. It’s like a tool that they can pick up and read, put down and think about. And then go back and look at the infographics and think about them some more. And put it down, pick it back up. It’s like an ongoing process, because like you said, we all go through that phase of thinking, well, it’s not actually abuse. There’s no physical abuse happening here. ![How to Explain Betrayal Trauma](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/explain-betrayal-trauma.webp "Explain Betrayal Trauma")It must not be abuse. But then when you break it down, when you look at the core of what’s happening, it starts to shift and you start to realize, oh, this is abuse. And I am being abused. It’s just a great tool. **Anne:** So I did not intend it to be a children’s book. I intended it to be a picture book for adults to help teach this complex issue. It’s been out at my house, and my kids love it, and they think it’s amazing. Of course, as the author of it, I’ve had the storyboard out and different versions of it. ## It’s A Picture Book, Is It Appropriate For Children? **Anne:** As the iterations progressed, my kids really, really genuinely love it. They love looking at the pictures. For me, this is my job. This is what I do all the time. And my kids, they’re familiar with this because I’m talking about it all the time. So for me, is it appropriate for my kids? I think yes. For women wondering, is this a book for kids or a book for teenagers? What are your thoughts? **Jenna:** I definitely think it depends on the situation, and I think each parent needs to decide if it is appropriate for their child specifically. Because every situation is different. I think that there is value in talking about our experiences with our kids. So the amount of detail shared may differ from one person to another. But I do think our kids are in tune with what’s going on. ![Women Say This Is The Best Support For Betrayal Trauma](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/126Il6pSQPI/sddefault.jpg) They know that something is wrong when we are going through betrayal trauma, and when we’re going through abuse. They can sense that something is off. Even at a very young age, I think there is value in acknowledging that and maybe sharing some experience with them, so that they can make sense of what’s going on. ## Why Would It Be Appropriate For Children? **Anne:** If someone shares it with their children, the cool thing about it is that it’s appropriate. There are no graphic pictures. There’s no graphic language. Everything is kid friendly. There’s nothing explicit in it. Is it appropriate for children? Absolutely, is it a book for children? I don’t know. Parents will have to get it. They’ll have to look at it, and decide for themselves. I think kids will really like it regardless. So if they picked it up, I think they’d think, Oh, these pictures are pretty. **Jenna:** Now that we’re talking about this, I’m realizing you typically interview. And I’m just thinking, Wait a minute, we’re sitting in the wrong seats. Maybe we need to turn things around, and I need to interview you and ask you questions about the book. What do you think? [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) **Anne:** Okay. **Jenna:** I just have questions that come to mind from my experience. What was it like to write this book? **Anne:** Well, it was hard at first because I wanted to show every scenario that could ever happen. The first versions were really, really long. They were too long. In the beginning, there were lots more illustrations. And so trying to pare that down was hard. ## Explaining Betrayal Trauma with Illustrations Showing The Vortex Of Emotions Victims Feel **Anne:** One of the reasons why I picked Cristalwolf as the illustrator is that I sent one page to several illustrators, and some of them sent back pictures that actually had exploitative material on them. Like someone was looking at an iPad, and the iPad had it on it. And I didn’t want anything like that. I didn’t want it explicit. I wanted it to be friendly and feel wholesome. When Cristalwolf sent hers back, I was like, “Oh, she gets it.” She didn’t include anything like that. It was clear. But then as we created the storyboard and went through, it was a lot harder than I thought to illustrate some of these concepts visually. How does an illustrator explain these concepts through art? So there’s Trauma Mama, right? And then there’s Dad. It’s sort of this vortex of abuse where sometimes he’s sweet and sometimes he’s on a rampage. And we were trying to figure out how to illustrate that difficult concept. A friend of mine said, “What about a tornado?” **Anne:** So Every single one of the illustrations Every single one went through multiple, multiple, multiple iterations. And then the words on every single page went through multiple, multiple, multiple iterations. ## Trying To Capture & Make Clear That Betrayal Trauma Is Abuse **Anne:** I wanted it to rhyme, and I wanted it to have a certain rhythm, and to explain betrayal trauma. I had this criteria that we had to use. So making everything fit within those parameters was a lot longer process than I thought. And I’m pleased with the result. I didn’t want to write a crappy book, I just didn’t. I wanted it to be good and help people immediately, because I thought if this isn’t clear, it’s not going to be helpful. The main problem with betrayal trauma, and trying to explain betrayal trauma and this type of abuse. Is it so difficult to understand what’s happening? **Jenna:** I think you achieved that goal. I can’t stop looking at the pictures. The pictures are so pretty to look at, but it’s so validating to read. And it just hits home. Like it feels so accurate. Really good job. You did great. What was the hardest part of writing this book for you? **Anne:** I think the process of writing this book was the same process that we all go through, in that we’re trying to figure out what’s happening and then trying to communicate that to someone else. So I’d say the hardest part of writing the book parallels, the hardest part of our experience of betrayal trauma. Which is that it’s difficult, even when you know what’s going on, to communicate it to someone else. ## The Journey Of Trauma Feelings & Emotional Abuse Illustrated **Anne:** Probably getting the emotions, right? The fear, the anxiety, and the worry. There’s a section where she sets boundaries, and figuring out the visual metaphor for what that would feel like took a long time. The process of writing the book explaining betrayal trauma, and the process of iterating these illustrations, helped me go deep into what I felt. It was almost like explaining to myself what betrayal trauma felt like. Throughout this whole experience, I had to close my eyes and remember how I felt. And then having to actually illustrate what that looked like for me and for all of us was like going back in time, emotionally. **Jenna:** That makes sense. And the nice thing is now that we have the book, it helps all the women who are having a hard time communicating their experience to other people and what it’s like. Now they have this great tool that they give someone and say, Please read this book. This is how I’m feeling. This is the best way to explain betrayal trauma. You’re helping other women go through that same experience. Many of the women you interact with daily are just discovering this addiction, or many have been in it for many years. But many of them are just now learning that they’re not crazy, and that there’s something called betrayal trauma. They’re just now learning some language, and they’re just realizing that there are other people experiencing this. And that there’s help and hope ahead. ## *Trauma Momma Husband Drama* Gives Women Relief & Validation, They Aren’t Crazy **Jenna:** And so this book would give them language, like the simple language, to narrate their story to explain what’s happening. When you read something that describes your experience, and you’re like, that’s what I’m feeling. I remember the first time I heard the term betrayal trauma, and I read a brief description of it. And I thought, wait, this is exactly what I’m feeling. This must be what I have or what I’m going through. But I remember feeling. Like this wave of relief that like there’s a term for it. There are others who feel this way, there is hope, because that’s one thing that the book describes. Like the pain of the betrayal trauma and the pain of people not believing you. Then it does more than that, because it takes it to the next level of saying, “Okay, that happens. But look what happens as she sets boundaries and establishes safety in her life.” For the women in our community going through this. I think that that could give them a lot of validation that what they’re going through is real, that they’re not crazy, and that there are other women who experience it. And it reminds them that this isn’t the end. They get to establish the safety in their life. They decide what their future looks like. **Anne:** In the messages I receive every day and the comments on social media, I hear the panic, fear, and anxiety in women’s stories. ## Understanding Betrayal Trauma, Helps Every Woman Identify Psychological & Emotional Abuse **Anne:** I welcome those stories, because I think the more we can amplify our voices, the more it helps other women who are going through it, who can’t find help. And then when they find [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org), and they have a book like *Trauma Mama Husband Drama*. Then they have language for understanding betrayal trauma, and it’s easier to identify. It’s easier to talk about. **Jenna:** I definitely agree. And I want to reiterate that, it’s like I almost want to say a little prayer for every comment I see. You know, you can just tell someone understands what you’re talking about. I am grateful that someone is willing to share something so personal, so private, and so precious with you and with Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I appreciate that you take that seriously. Every message you get, you want it. You’re so grateful that women are willing to be vulnerable and share with you. So thank you. What are your hopes for this book? Where do you see it going, and what do you hope it brings to the world? **Anne:** The hope for this book is the same as the hope for [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org), to ensure that every woman in the world can identify psychological and emotional abuse and coercion. And also create safety when they’re experiencing it. So we do that through several mediums at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Social media daily. the podcast, daily online group sessions, where victims can talk to other women going through it. With our amazing coaches that I trained personally. ## Hopes For All The Women Of The World To Have Peace & Safety In Their Homes **Anne:** There are many ways that we do this. This is just another way to educate people about this type of abuse, and to explain betrayal trauma. And until every woman in the world and every man understands coercion. They understand that a woman who thinks her relationship is free of this and she’s not aware of her husband’s use, that’s coercion. They understand that the gaslighting and manipulating are emotional and psychological abuse. People need to understand. And I think once that understanding is there, we can start making real forward progress for the safety of women and children, homes and families. It’s also the only hope for the abusive man. The goal of Betrayal Trauma Recovery, the goal of *Trauma Mama Husband Drama*, is world peace. Dare I sound like a beauty pageant contestant, but genuinely speaking, the end goal is world peace. It is peace in homes, to have safe, peaceful, like genuinely happy, full, healthy relationships. With their spouses, with their children and with themselves. And that’s what I love about [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org). Yeah, we talk about dark things all the time, but what are we genuinely looking toward? It’s a world of peace. **Jenna:** Yeah, we want happy, peaceful families and a happy, peaceful world. I love that, thanks. Do we order this book through Amazon? Where can I get a printed copy? **Anne:** You can find it on our website at [btr.org/books](https://www.btr.org/books/). If you click on it, it’ll take you to Amazon, and you can order it from Amazon. And it comes just like all your other Amazon orders. You can also get it on Kindle. ## The Importance Of Reviews To Help Women Be Safe From Emotional Abuse **Anne:** When we talk about women finding this book, the more reviews this book gets, the more visible it is in the Amazon algorithm. So when you receive the book as a verified purchaser, go back to Amazon and review it. Give it five stars. That will help other women find the book. Because when you search for things on Amazon, the things that are the most popular, the things that have the most reviews, they tend to be toward the top of the list. Please help us get this book at the top of the list. So many people when they’re looking for things about, like communication or marriage issues or relationship things, get stupid stuff that has not helped us. That has led us down the wrong path. Like the five love languages. So many women were like, okay, well, if this is his love language, then I’m going to do this. And that did not help them when it came to abuse. So rather than finding books that. Don’t hit the abuse head on. I would like women to find a book like this right off the bat. When they’re looking for communication books, I would love them to see this and consider that or infidelity may be a factor and that they may experience emotional abuse. It breaks my heart when women struggle to heal from their divorce. And they say, something like, you know, it wasn’t working. I’m just not good enough. I’ll say, “did he use exploitative material?” because that’s such a marker for emotional and psychological abuse. And she’ll tell me, “Well, yeah, but that wasn’t the cause, we just fought all the time.” ## Women Often Don’t Know They’re Experiencing Abuse, understanding betrayal trauma Helps Them Find Out **Anne:** And my heart just goes out to her, because I want her to know that she doesn’t have to feel guilt for anything that “contributed” to the marriage problems. If her husband used this stuff or had affairs, or emotionally or psychologically abused her. Most of the time, women don’t see these markers, they’re experiencing emotional and psychological abuse. She wouldn’t even know that it was happening. She might just think they get in a fight all the time. They don’t know the best way to explain betrayal trauma, or that they are experiencing it. Once you know, the truth. You can start to make the decisions that are right for you. The reason I wrote *Trauma Mama Husband Drama* was to educate everyone. About abuse in general, and this needs to be part of this discussion, because it is abuse period. End of story. It’s a marker of abuse. And every person needs to know that if you use exploitative material, you’re going to hurt people. **Jenna:** When you were talking, I thought back to when I first discovered the exploitative materials use and emotional abuse happening in my marriage. And I thought back to how I didn’t know what to do. And I had nothing, no tools. I wish I’d had someone hand me this book and say, just read this. And it would have been like a game changer from the beginning. And I could have avoided years of so much emotional pain. So I’m glad you wrote this book. Thank you so much. ## Not Being Alone – Discovering Of Betrayal Trauma Recovery **Jenna:** I can’t wait to order more copies. It is the best way to explain betrayal trauma. I’m giving them to my friends, even those with me during my experience, and empathetic to me. I want them to see it, read it and share it with everyone. Give it to my family members, church leaders, people I meet, who are going through something similar. People who have a passing thought might be going through something like this. **Anne:** Before we go, would you tell listeners how you discovered Betrayal Trauma Recovery? **Jenna:** I would love to. Okay. So I remember this vividly. Years ago, I was sitting on my phone and looking for resources for women whose husbands use this. And I just had this thought, maybe there is a podcast about betrayal trauma. I looked in my podcast app, and I looked up betrayal trauma and there was nothing. And I was like, Oh, bummer. Then later one night I was thinking about it again. And I searched again, and I think it was only like a week later. So I searched it again. And then your podcast popped up, and I got so excited. I was like, Oh, I have to listen to this. And I started listening. And I just remember feeling like, Oh, she gets it. Oh my gosh. It was like this moment of like, I’m not alone. And then as I started to listen to the podcast more and more, I listened to every episode. And then, a group I attended, a support group I attended at the time, someone from that group had sent out a message. Like, Hey, I have a friend who started this podcast. She’s looking for some volunteers. She wants to get the word out. ## Trying To Change The World **Jenna:** And I was like, Wait a minute, this is the podcast I’m listening to. I definitely want to help, because I love it and care about it, and this is the experience I’m going through. And so I think she sent you my contact information, and you called me. I got too nervous to answer the phone because I was like, I don’t know, maybe it’s her. And then, and I heard your voicemail, I’m going to call her back. And so I called you back and I just remember hearing your voice, and I was like, Oh my gosh, this is the voice from the podcast. I feel like a, like a little bit of a fangirl, you know, at the time. **Anne:** Yeah. It’s crazy. And now you’re like, Oh, it’s just Anne. **Jenna:** Normal, but also like creating great things, like the best way to explain betrayal trauma. **Anne:** Trying, right? Attempting to change the world. I think that’s one thing I love about myself and hate about myself. It’s that I’m crazy enough to think we can do this, right? We can change the world. It will take a lot of time, effort, and whole army of us to educate everybody about this. And also, they’re going to think we’re crazy and we have to keep going. Like we can’t let that stop us. We can’t let their eye rolls and their, “Oh, who’s she? What does she know?” Stop us from moving forward. It’s people like you and the amazing Betrayal Trauma Recovery coaches that enable Betrayal Trauma Recovery to grow the way it has, and I feel like people have come out of the woodwork. Yeah, trying right? Attempting to change the world. ## Betrayal Trauma Recovery Is On A Mission To End Ignorance About Psychological & Emotional Abuse **Anne:** That’s one thing I love and hate about myself. I’m crazy enough to think we can do this. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery checklist is a great way to help women who get it, who felt sort of, I would say, “called.” They don’t want any other woman to go through it. They’re thinking the same thing. I thought if I had this podcast and *Trauma Mama Husband Drama*, that is the best way to explain betrayal trauma. [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) and an amazing [online Support Group](https://www.btr.org/group/) that meets multiple times a day. [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org) is a team of women who’ve been through it, who understand it. And who are dedicated to eliminating the pain and suffering. **Jenna:** Yeah, I love that. I love the visual that we’re an army and we’re a team because that is definitely true. **Anne:** Again, you can find my book *Trauma Mama Husband Drama,* at [btr.org/books](https://www.btr.org/books/). It is the best way to explain betrayal trauma. I appreciate so many of you who have given *Trauma Mama Husband Drama*, a five-star rating on Amazon. Every one of your reviews bumps it up the algorithm so other women can find us. I also appreciate your comments on Facebook and Instagram. If you could please help spread the word about Betrayal Trauma Recovery, at least just comment on any of our social media posts, even if it’s like a heart. Find the post and put a thumbs up or clap emoji. It can be an emoji, which helps the algorithm. And some comment on every one of our platforms every day. It helps a ton. So those of you are doing that. Thank you so much. We need you, and so do all the women in the world. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [When Your Husband Doesn't Help With Housework](https://www.btr.org/when-your-husband-doesnt-help-with-housework/) **Published:** July 11, 2023 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** If your husband won't do housework, does backseat parenting and controls money, It might be coercive control. **Content:** When your husband doesn’t help with housework, it’s important to understand how it might impact you. Sometimes his refusal to do housework is a sign of emotional abuse. To discover if he’s using any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take our [free abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ![Why Wont My Husband Help with Housework](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Why-Wont-My-Husband-Help-With-Housework.webp "Why Wont My Husband Help with Housework")## Transcript: When Your Husband Doesn’t Help With Housework **Anne:** It’s just me today. I’m going to talk about what happens when your husband doesn’t help with the housework. When he fails to help with household responsibilities, it forces you to shoulder a heavy burden alone. The situation feels overwhelming. Before we dive into solutions, we need to discuss why this problem happens so often. We’ll examine societal norms, historical dynamics, and personal beliefs. So let’s get into it. Historically, many cultures have perpetuated the idea that housework is “women’s work.” And this notion is rooted in the systemic exploitation of women throughout time. This belief persists often unexamined, allowing unequal dynamics to thrive in households. Misogyny, whether overt or subtle, plays a role in enabling the unequal distribution of labor this is a [powerful truth about emotional abuse.](https://www.btr.org/7-powerful-truths-about-emotional-abuse/ "powerful truth about emotional abuse. -") Women do about 70% of the world’s work. Unfair systems have exploited women since the beginning of time, so society teaches men to expect women to handle most housework and family responsibilities. If your husband avoids chores, remember this goes beyond cleaning—it’s about fairness. When I grew up in my faith, people said household tasks held divine importance. They claimed these tasks were special and that women who did them were lucky. I disagree. Someone needs to do the laundry. The dishes need to be washed. Someone needs to buy the groceries. Someone needs to make the meals. These tasks are not special. ![Emotional Abusers Use Your Strengths As Weapons](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/xJiQXyHCejw/sddefault.jpg) ## The Importance Of Shared Responsibilities **Anne:** If someone avoids housework, problems pile up. Your house becomes a disaster. Nobody feeds anyone. Nobody stocks the fridge with food. This work matters, but anyone can do it. I mean, you’ve seen *9 to 5* or *Mad Men*. The women worked hard at the office, but the men claimed all the credit and earned the bulk of the pay. And THEN women handled all the chores once they got home. When we discuss an imbalance of labor, we must address issues of power and privilege. Many men who resist housework often exploit their partners by placing the burden of domestic responsibilities solely on them, failing to acknowledge their exploitative privilege and unequal division of labor within the household. Abusive men often believe that asking them to contribute equally in a relationship or help around the house attacks their identity as men. **All marriages must prioritize safety. But being pro-safety doesn’t oppose marriage. Marriage exists to create a safe and equal partnership.** When I educate others about these imbalances and encourage women to advocate for equality in their homes, men with exploitative privilege often push back. They claim discussions about equality attack families or go against Christianity. From my Christian perspective, I see this conversation as aligning with my values, because Christ taught love and equality. The scriptures never condone exploiting women or expecting them to handle all the housework alone. ## Christian Perspective On Equality **Anne:** In the scripture where Christ talks about Mary and Martha, He says Mary chose the better part. She didn’t do household work; she focused on desk work, like writing or thinking. The New Testament highlights the fruits of the spirit as love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, and gentleness. Both men and women must embody these values in their homes and marriages. ![Husband Helping with Housework](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Husband-Helping-With-Housework-1.webp "Husband Helping with Housework")When your husband doesn’t help with housework, it’s not a matter of biblical roles or faith. In fact [biblical submission often becomes abuse](https://www.btr.org/when-biblical-submission-becomes-abuse/ "biblical submission often becomes abuse"). It’s simply about power and control, because inequality thrives when one group benefits at the expense of another. And while some misuse scripture to justify this power imbalance, Jesus himself modeled a different way. He rejected exploitation and dominance, teaching that true leadership and love come through service. So if your husband claims to follow Christ, his actions should reflect a man who strives to live out his faith, as a Christian. He would not just serve in grand gestures or in public. But he would help with laundry, clean the kitchen, and pick up without complaining or prompting. Jesus himself demonstrated servant leadership, washing his disciples’ feet. In today’s world, it’s comparable to everyday tasks like wiping down countertops or cleaning the bathroom. ![Should Husbands Help with Housework](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Should-Husbands-Help-With-Housework.webp "Should Husbands Help with Housework")Jesus says, “Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.” – Revelation 3:20. His nature is invitation and partnership, not control. Similarly, a godly marriage, a biblical marriage, if you will – one that God would endorse – should reflect this spirit of cooperation and mutual care. When your husband doesn’t help with housework, it’s not just leaving chores undone. He’s missing an opportunity to embody Christ-like love in a relationship. If you’ve tried to have a conversation or multiple conversations about this power imbalance or this imbalance of labor, and it hasn’t gotten you anywhere, he probably resists because of his refusal to give up this exploitative privilege. So when any woman asks, what do I do when my husband doesn’t help with the housework? She’s asking a deeper question. ## When Your Husband Doesn’t Help With Housework: Coverture Laws & Women’s Rights **Anne:** Why do some men not share household duties? In the story of Jacob, Leah and Rachel, why did Jacob have to work for seven years to be with Leah, and then another seven years to marry Rachel? The answer is not in the Bible. I don’t know why they took this out. But it’s because he purchased them from their father. He was working to *buy* them. It took him seven years to earn enough money to buy Leah, and then seven more years to buy Rachel. When they married, Rachel and Leah became his property. Since the beginning of time, until the late 1800s, men have owned women in marriage. It was essentially a form of slavery in Western society, including European countries and eventually the United States. Coverture was a legal practice that gave husbands almost complete power over their wives. These laws essentially stated that women had no legal status. She gave up her identity, and her husband completely absorbed her. It meant she had no independent legal rights and was subject to her husband’s control. ## Coverture Wrongs **Anne:** She didn’t even have a right to her own earnings, and any property she previously had was now her husband’s. In addition, any children they had were his. If they divorced, he would automatically get custody. She would never have custody of her children. Under coverture laws, women didn’t have the right to property, money or children, but also their own body. So it was legal for a husband to rape his wife. Coverture laws also prevented a woman from suing or executing a will without her husband’s consent. One of the most alarming aspects of coverture laws was the power it gave men to control their wives’ lives, including the ability to commit them in a mental institution for literally any reason or no reason at all. During the 19th century, husbands institutionalized countless women against their will. Often, the excuse was simply that she had challenged male authority or disagreed with her husband. You can read about this in a book called [*The Woman They Could Not Silence*. It’s about Elizabeth Packard, and it’s on our books page](https://www.btr.org/books/). These laws stripped women of legal autonomy, allowing their husbands to label them hysterical or unfit with absolutely no evidence. It not only silenced women, but also perpetrated a system of oppression that denied them basic rights and freedoms. Feminists have been around throughout history. Women thinkers in the 1800’s or the 1700’s wrote a lot of the stuff I’m teaching you today. Women documented information, and then men destroyed their writings. Since the internet didn’t exist back then, the writings aren’t in history books or integrated into society. Today, we build on the hard work of the amazing women who came before us. ![Household Chores for Married Couples](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Household-Chores-For-Married-Couples.webp "Household Chores for Married Couples")## Dismantling Marriage Coverture Laws **Anne:** I want to talk about when coverture laws were dismantled, because I think you’ll be surprised how long it took. It wasn’t until 1839 that Mississippi became the first state to begin dismantling coverture laws, but they didn’t dismantle all of them. New York passed the married women’s property act in 1848. Married women then had the right to own and control property in their own names, but their husband still jointly owned it, of course. In 1860, women in New York gained the right to joint custody of their children, in addition to the right to sue and be sued. The Homestead Act passed in 1862, which allowed women to own property without their husband’s permission. The Women’s Bureau was established by the US Department of Labor in 1920, which improved the working conditions and opportunities of wage earning for women in the United States. This included their ability to collect their own wages. Also in 1920, Keezer’s Law of Marriage and Divorce stated that mothers should be preferred as custodians of their children. Since the late 1960s, children have often been regarded as property rather than individuals. And I talk about that in several episodes about parental alienation. So if you want to learn more, just search parental alienation on my website. Discover more about the challenges mothers face when their voices and experiences are not believed. This will shock all of you. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## Modern Legal Advances For Women’s Rights **Anne:** It wasn’t until the 1960s that women could open their own bank accounts. We all owe the Equal Credit Opportunity Act, passed in 1974, which made it illegal for banks to discriminate against lending based on gender or marital status for the first time. So if you’re my age, your mom would not have been able to get a credit card in her name until 1974. It’s shocking to think that marital rape remained legal until 1991. The case involved a man convicted of raping his wife, but appealed on the basis that a husband could not be convicted of raping his wife because of the marriage contract. This ruling highlighted how entrenched male dominance was even within marriage. It’s just part of this entrenched thought process. So when your husband doesn’t help with housework, it reflects a cultural legacy of the exploitation of women. Advancements in women’s rights have always been driven by law, because historical evidence shows that without legal changes, many men are not willing to give up their exploitative privilege. While some good men throughout history, and there are probably quite a few of them, treated their wives well, helped around the house, and were equals to their wives. But enough resisted. Laws are needed to enforce women’s rights. It’s interesting to me that the misogynists have decided to use the Bible now to enforce the exploitation of women, now that they don’t have the law to back them up. ## The Lingering Impact Of Patriarchal Structures **Anne:** Even though the original purpose of marriage was to grant men ownership of women, and that legacy lingers in our cultural DNA, marriage should now be seen as a partnership. This is why [fundamentalism and patriarchy fuel abuse.](https://www.btr.org/fundamentalism-and-patriarchy-fuel-abuse/ "fundamentalism and patriarchy fuel abuse. ") So why do all these laws matter when your husband won’t help with housework? It’s because for centuries, marriage was built on the idea that women exist to serve men physically, emotionally and sexually. The mindset has steeped even into the most mundane aspects of daily life, like who does the dishes or who folds the laundry. When your husband doesn’t help with housework, it might feel like a small thing on the surface, but it’s deeply tied to this historical imbalance. The expectation that women should shoulder the burden of domestic labor without complaint is a direct result of centuries of male exploitation in marriage. Even today, many men think of housework as “helping” their wife. Like they help their wife by vacuuming, or help their wife by doing childcare. This type of language reflects the lingering idea that domestic labor is inherently a woman’s role. So even though these patriarchal structures may have been legally dismantled, their impact remains. During biblical times, men had exploitative privilege. That lens shaped the interpretations of Christ’s teachings. The way they wrote about it 3,000 years ago continues to influence the everyday struggles of women today. So this exploitative mindset that has historically permeated marriage is the belief that power is only real when it involves controlling someone else. So a king, for instance, would not be a powerful king without subjects to rule. If he had no subjects, he would have to do it himself. He’d have to go out and plant, grow, pick the wheat, turn it into flour, drag it to the market and sit there and sell it. But what if he didn’t know how to do any of that? What if the only thing he knew how to do was boss people around. He’s not very powerful because if the people stopped doing it, he is completely powerless. If he’s not able to exploit people, he has no power at all, because he’s just pointless. ## True Power & Self-Sufficiency **Anne:** True power, on the other hand, stems from your individual ability to bring things to pass. The ability to sustain oneself without relying on the subjugation of others. That is true power. True power comes from your ability. For example. to pick your own wheat, because then you’ll always be fine. If the person working for you just gives up and quits one day, you’re not wondering what will I do now? Because you know how to pick your own wheat. If your husband doesn’t help with housework, or believes that housework is someone else’s job, it echoes that power over dynamic. Deception keeps that power over dynamic going. So a man might say, I have to work so I can’t do the dishes. Here’s an example. My ex-husband worked from home. He would say, “Don’t interrupt me while I’m working. I can’t help with the kids, the dishes, or the laundry.” So I wouldn’t interrupt him, but then I would find out that he watched YouTube all day. He lied to me so that he didn’t have to do domestic labor. ## Women Aren’t Naturally “Better” At Housework **Anne:** Leaving housework undone is tied to this power over mindset, because ignoring shared responsibilities sends a message that one partner’s time and energy or priorities are more important than the others. So when it comes to equality, it doesn’t mean splitting everything 50/50 down the middle necessarily. But it does mean acknowledging and valuing each partner’s unique talents, strengths, interests and weaknesses. And being able to talk about those in a very real way, without relying on rigid stereotypes. For instance, a husband with a talent for cooking might take charge of the kitchen and grocery shopping. Meanwhile, his wife prefers yard work or home remodeling or other hands-on projects. That’s what brings her joy. Or perhaps she’s the CFO at a hospital or a banker, and he’s a plumber or librarian. The specifics don’t matter. What matters is that each partner embraces their own natural gifts and interests, the gifts God gave them, and they work together as a team. A partnership doesn’t have room for outdated gender thinking. Like I don’t clean toilets, because men don’t clean toilets. Or a woman says I don’t mow lawns, because that’s men’s work. It needs to be based on their individual talents. ## Intentional Discussions About Dividing Responsibilities **Anne:** Many couples don’t have these types of intentional discussions about dividing responsibilities. In the few dates I’ve been on, I’ve had to say, I don’t enjoy cooking. I’m not going to cook. I just need to get it out there. Can you imagine a man going on a date and saying, hey, just a warning, I don’t enjoy cooking? I don’t think any man would ever feel like he had to say that. Have you ever had a conversation like this in your marriage? I’m not a fan of cooking, but it seems like you enjoy it. Would you be willing to take the lead in the kitchen? And have him actually take the lead and plan meals. Or, I love working in the garden. I’d rather mow the lawn than cook. Since neither of us enjoys cleaning the toilet, should we consider taking turns, or would it be better to hire someone? Like an actual discussion about it? Those types of conversations would allow a partnership. But saying I don’t like doing this, so you have to do it because you’re a woman? That’s crazy town. Rigid traditional gender roles, often perpetuated from the pulpit, undermine God’s intention for each of our unique strengths and talents. I mean, we’ve all been commanded not to hide our light under a bushel. So if a woman excels at math and feels called to pursue a career as an engineer, and she doesn’t do that, wouldn’t she be hiding her light under a bushel? Think about the scripture where God gives some people the gift of prophecy, and others the gift of teaching or sharing His word with others. Nowhere does the scripture say He gave prophecy and evangelism to men, and to women, he gave the task of making sandwiches. That’s not in the scriptures anywhere. If you genuinely love making sandwiches, fantastic. But it was not based on gender. In fact, all the scriptures talk about men. Because women were slaves during that time. I mean, you can either say it applies to everyone. Or that their husbands should own women, like they were 3,000 years ago. You have to think about the context. ## Rigid Gender Roles & Mental Load Anne: It’s also worth noting how these rigid gender roles shift the full mental load, the emotional labor of everything onto the wives. I mean, no amount of can you do this or please take care of that will magically transform him into an ideal partner. If you still have to remind him or ask him, and he still views it as helping you, that’s where the problem lies. It’s important to determine if he’s just not educated about this type of misogyny and needs education. Or if he uses this exploitative privilege to his advantage on purpose. Which would amount to emotional and psychological abuse and exploitation. Even if you don’t label it abuse, you’re allowed to say this isn’t for me. This is not the partnership I was looking for. I mean, many women feel stuck because they don’t want to label it abuse, but they also don’t like it. Or maybe even a therapist, a book, or a pastor will be like, it’s not that bad. You need to communicate better. But you’ve already tried to communicate these concerns, and it’s gotten you nowhere. Why are you not helping with housework? Can we work together? You may want to consider that he knows this and is doing it on purpose. And this is emotional and psychological abuse. ## Figure Out The Real Reason He Won’t Help With Housework In The Living Free Workshop **Anne:** I created [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) for you to determine what type of character he actually has. Has he adopted these historical misogynistic ideas, and doesn’t want to let go of them? Does he enjoy his exploitative privilege and not want to give up the things he gets from that privilege? [The Living Free Workshop ](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/)takes women through determining what his true character is, and then learning what to do next. Because this may be an emotional, and psychological abuse issue. It’s not just refusing to help with housework. If he deceives you to maintain power, if he has affairs, if he uses porn, and lies to you about it. If he’s not willing to do his part around the house, if he tries to convince you that God said you had to do laundry. Because I think, unfortunately, the unequal division of labor has been normalized in so many relationships, institutions and religions. It makes it hard to see how damaging this is when your husband won’t do housework. We all have brain fog shaped by years of taking on too much, which makes it difficult sometimes to recognize these power imbalances. Although Jesus taught us to serve, and serving is awesome, he wanted us to be equally yoked. The only case in which he says it’s okay to be unequally yoked is with him. Where he pulls more of the weight, not less. He asks us to separate ourselves from wickedness repeatedly throughout the scriptures. So when it comes to wickedness, which is when we get exploited by someone who wants to use us, he says separate yourself from that. He doesn’t want people to be exploited. Refusing to do housework is a form of exploitation. Because it leaves you with less time, energy, or mental space to work on your own goals to get an education to have a job. ## Reproductive Coercion & Neglect **Anne:** One particularly insidious form of abuse is reproductive coercion. He might also dismiss your needs as a mother or pressure you to have more children. Or prioritize his desires over your physical and emotional recovery after childbirth. This neglect of your wellbeing sends a clear message: your needs are secondary, even when your body and mind cry out for support. So many women I’ve talked to have only realized the full extent of this imbalance of power after they’re away from it. They looked back and thought, holy cow, I didn’t realize I went through that same thing. After I separated, I realized I was managing everything. He didn’t do any of the things I thought he was good at, or that I was grateful he did without me managing it. So it was me, I was grateful for myself. ## Societal & Cultural Messages That Normalize Husband’s Not Participting In Housework **Anne:** In a society where women can feel trapped by these societal and cultural messages that tell you that you’re only valuable if you serve in a domestic way, God gave you specific talents and interests for a reason. And it might be laundry. But consider that women are praised for their sacrifice. And men are praised for their achievements. This comes from 5,000 years of misogyny, which we are still dealing with today. So if you’re wondering, why won’t he help with housework? It may be as simple as educating him about historical misogyny and the DNA of when marriage was essentially slavery. Or it might mean he’s emotionally and psychologically abusive. So the next step would be determining what’s really going on. To get more information about what’s going on, go to [The Betrayal Trauma Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). That will teach you how to observe what he’s doing. Learn if he’s the type of person you can actually talk to about this, and it will make a difference. Or if he’s going to weaponize that against you. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast, Related Posts --- ### [Is My Husband Emotionally Abusive? - Brandi's Story](https://www.btr.org/is-my-husband-emotionally-abusive/) **Published:** June 4, 2024 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Here's how to know if your experiencing emotional abuse. **Content:** Like many women, Brandi found herself asking, “Is my husband emotionally abusive?” The ramifications of learning this can seem overwhelming. To find out if you’re experiencing any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take our [free emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ![the Compelling Reasons Why We Think Everyone Should Learn About Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Three-Compelling-Reasons-Why-We-Learn-About-Abuse.webp "Three Compelling Reasons Why We Learn About Abuse")## 1. Your Husband Is Emotionally Abusive If He Lies Emotional abuse victims state that his constant lying is one of the worst parts of his emotional abuse. Lies are emotionally abusive, because hiding the truth from you is one way he manipulates your emotions. This emotional manipulation is calculated to control the narrative and maintain his ability to exploit you. Lying is not just stating the opposite of something you know to be true. There are many different kinds of lies that emotionally abusive husband’s use: - **Lies of commission**: this is a lie that is blatant. “I didn’t use pornography yesterday” (when he *did* use pornography yesterday). - **Lies of omission**: he used pornography yesterday, you didn’t ask or discover anything to ask about, and he didn’t disclose it to you. This is a form of lying just as serious as a lie of commission. It is also [marital coercion](https://www.btr.org/what-is-marital-coercion/ "marital coercion"). - **Detraction**: this is a powerful and manipulative form of lying. This involves telling some of the truth while also inserting some kind of emotion that detracts from what he has just said. “I only used pornography for an hour yesterday. Aren’t you proud of me? I was so excited to tell you because that’s the shortest amount of time I’ve ever used it and I’m making progress. I’m going to call my sponsor, I know he’ll be so happy for me, just like you are!” - **Fine-Grain lies**: he knows what you are asking, because he intentionally withholds the truth: “I didn’t use pornography *yesterday*.” (when he did use it TODAY). - **Exaggeration**: yes, exaggeration in the hands of an emotional abuser is absolutely a form of lying. It’s a way to dumb down the abusive behavior and withhold important truth from the partner. “I only used pornography for ten minutes yesterday” (when he used it for hours). **Any other form of manipulation or withholding of truth.** When your partner says or does anything to deceive you from knowing or fully understanding the entire truth, he’s lying to you. Any time that he obstructs you from discerning the truth, he is lying to you. **[Lying is emotional abuse. ](/is-lying-emotional-abuse/ "Lying, in and of itself, is emotional abuse. ")** ## 2. Blaming: What Your Husband Uses to Emotionally Abuse You After discovering betrayal, women will often look at themselves to determine what they did to cause the betrayal. An emotionally abusive husband will use this as an opportunity to manipulate his wife into thinking it’s her fault. He’ll blame her to: - Avoid responsibility and accountability - Pretend like he’s a victim of his own pornography use or other abusive behaviors - Lie and tell her she’s emotionally abusive to him – which caused him to use pornography. Gaslighting is another covert way he may blame you for the emotional abuse. This is tactic where the emotionally abusive husband systematically undermines his wife’s reality to make her think it’s her fault in some way. If he’s created a narrative to alter your reality, you’re being emotionally abused. [If you think he’s gaslighting you, enroll in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop to determine what’s really going on. ](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) ## 3. Justification: How He Makes His Emotional Abuse Make Sense A husband who is emotionally abusive knows his behavior is wrong. For example, everyone knows that it’s wrong to yell at another person unless you are truly protecting them from danger. An emotionally abusive husband will raise his voice to asserts his entitlement or other exploitative privileges. However, he’ll justify that this bad behavior wasn’t wrong with any or every excuse possible. ### He’s Emotionally Abusing You When He Justifies The Abuse Justification is another way they can alter your perception of what is going on. For example, he may say things like, “It’s just porn. It’s not a real person so it’s not that bad. It’s not cheating. I’m a man, so I can’t help it. I have a high sex drive and besides, all men look at it. It’s a guy thing. It’s what they do. I only do it a few times a month. It’s not a problem.” At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we believe that every woman deserves emotional safety. You don’t have to do this alone. [Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session ](https://www.btr.org/group/)TODAY. ![is Husbands Affair Emotional Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Is-Husbands-Affair-Emotional-Abuse.webp "is Husbands Affair Emotional Abuse")## Transcript: 3 Compelling Reasons To Learn About Abuse **Anne:** We’re going to cover three compelling reasons to learn about hidden abuse today. I’m going to lay them out for you right now really quick. Number one, learn about emotional and psychological abuse, so that your emotional safety is the top priority. Number two, an emotional and psychological abuser will use forgiveness as a weapon. And number three, learning about emotional and psychological abuse doesn’t create emotional and psychological abuse. And we’ll go into detail about why those things are important throughout this conversation. ![Compelling Reasons Why We Think Everyone Should Learn About Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/The-3-Compelling-Reasons-To-Learn-About-Abuse.webp "the Compelling Reasons to Learn About Abuse")**Anne:** Let’s start with how you found [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org). ## Terrified About & Finding That Betrayal Trauma Recovery Is Safe **Brandi:** I found Betrayal Trauma Recovery as a woman who had just experienced my own betrayal, but then I was nervous. I was nervous. I did not know. I said, is this place real? Is it safe? I had no clue. I was terrified of contacting a group of people I did not know, especially when there are so many groups out there. And so I put it off. One therapist said it was the marriage’s fault. What was my husband missing from the marriage? Delve into him. Why did he have an affair? ![of the Compelling Reasons Why We Think Everyone Needs to Learn About Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Three-of-the-Most-Compelling-Reasons-To-Get-Educated-About-Abuse.webp "Three of the Most Compelling Reasons to Get Educated About Abuse")And I fought that with tooth and nail. I never surrendered to that idea one time. And so I didn’t realize that as I was fighting through those codependent ideas. He could just simply blame the marriage, which meant he was blaming me. Which had him not taking full responsibility. I never surrendered to that idea and am so grateful. So I would fight it, fight it, fight it. I just wanted to heal and even understand what happened. After going through a codependent model through therapy, I knew that wasn’t it. I found Betrayal Trauma Recovery again. I said, well, you know what? What do I have to lose? I will try it out. And I’m going to get on this session right away. Best decision I made. I learned I needed to be in safety at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. And that’s what the codependent model did not teach me. I learned that in the codependent model, you communicate that boundary. And then he’s just gonna magically do what you say. Because clearly he’s gonna do it now that he’s betrayed the relationship. ## 1. Learn About Abuse So That Emotional Safety Is The Top Priority **Brandi:** Actually, it’s the opposite. He betrayed the relationship because of his character. He is boundless, so he’s not gonna respect the boundaries. My first session, I didn’t say anything. So I was just listening and seeing if these women are safe. That was my biggest thing. Are these women safe? Am I in the right [betrayal trauma support group](https://www.btr.org/betrayal-trauma-support-group/ "betrayal trauma support group")? I found that was the first thing. I found the rules of the group were for our safety. The coach was just full of education and yet she didn’t tell us what to do. She just simply asked us questions. ![Three of the Most Compelling Reasons Why We Think Everyone Should Learn About Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Three-of-the-Most-Compelling-Reasons-We-Want-Everyone-to-Learn-About-Abuse.webp "Three of the Most Compelling Reasons We Want Everyone to Learn About Abuse")She asked the other ladies questions, and the ladies were safe to cry. They were safe to talk about vulnerable topics, and they were safe to wade through the questions. Their [emotional abuse survivor stories ](https://www.btr.org/support-groups-for-survivors-of-emotional-abuse/)were incredible. They learn about abuse and get to a place where they are enlightened. I saw women at different stages of their recovery. I saw where I was and where I wanted to be. And I thought that that was so powerful for my first session. And so I learned that it’s my job to keep myself safe, and that’s exactly what I did after that. **Anne:** Well, I’m grateful that you found us. I’m grateful when any woman finds us, because the first reason to learn about emotional and psychological abuse is that your safety needs to be the top priority. Your emotional safety, your psychological safety. Many people think when I say safety, I mean, like pack up your bags and leave the house. And that’s actually not what I’m talking about. ## Learn About Abuse To Find Strategies To Deal With It **Anne:** There are ways to be emotionally safe remaining in the same home, if that’s what you so choose. There are so many amazing strategies, and I teach them in the [Living Free Workshop,](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) and then our coaches can help you learn to use these strategies. We get so many messages and stories that say I had been through therapy for years or went to couple therapy or addiction recovery. And nobody ever said the word abuse. They don’t say you need to learn about abuse. Did you recognize his behaviors as abuse at the beginning of your marriage? ![Three of the Compelling Reasons We Want Everyone to Be Educated About Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Three-of-the-Compelling-Reasons-We-Want-Everyone-to-Learn-About-Abuse.webp "Three of the Compelling Reasons We Want Everyone to Learn About Abuse")**Brandi:** Absolutely not. I pretty much grew up around manipulation tactics and stonewalling. That was actually very common for me. So I thought that’s what marriage was about. And so I would tackle it head on. It wasn’t something I didn’t address. I definitely addressed it, and I thought, oh, we’re good. We talked about it. And so I didn’t recognize it as abuse. And I was shocked when I learned the word abuse properly, because I would only think about abuse in terms of physical abuse. I did not think of it in terms of emotional or psychological, although throughout the marriage, I addressed it because I knew it wasn’t right. And it did not leave me feeling like I was being valued. **Anne:** Yeah, you knew something was wrong. When did you recognize that these typical, you know, love, serve, forgive, do your part kinds of things weren’t working? ## It Is Difficult To Recognize The Reality Of Abuse **Brandi:** I realized that after [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org). I remember my second group meeting when I opened up and they started giving us tools and books. I remember I put the book down and ran to the mirror. And I was like, oh my, I’ve been abused. I stayed up late after all my children went to bed, and I just sat with that. I sat with that and I’m like, this is abuse. This is why it is wrong. This is what I felt this whole time, and yet did not have the word for it. You had to forgive, you serve, we talk about it, then you’re okay. But it never went away. That was the key. And I certainly was never encouraged to create safety for myself. Like, you know, this means you’re safe, you’re married. This is safety. And so that’s when I finally realized, wait a minute, this is abuse. And now I can look back and say that was abuse throughout the marriage. ![of the Reasons Why We Need to Learn About Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/3-of-the-Reasons-Why-We-All-Need-to-Learn-About-Abuse.webp "of the Reasons Why We All Need to Learn About Abuse")**Anne:** Why do you think it’s so hard for women to recognize that what they’re experiencing is abuse? **Brandi:** The hardest thing is, this is someone I love. This is your husband, and this is who you love. And so it’s hard to associate. I’ve been loving this person who has been abusing me. This person is my husband, and he is an abuser. That is so hard to reconcile those two things when you learn about abuse. ## 2. An Emotional And Psychological Abuser Will Use Forgiveness As A Weapon **Anne:** Especially when everything about love is trying to understand someone’s view, give them the benefit of the doubt, and serve them. And when so many of those things, when you’re in an abusive situation, are used as weapons. Even your emotions, because abusers don’t see emotion as a way to connect, they see emotion as a way to manipulate people. And so even those emotional times where you thought maybe you were close once you got out of the fog, whoa, I shared those things. Then [my husband used them to groom me](https://www.btr.org/is-my-husband-grooming-me/ "my husband used them to groom me") and use them as weapons. And that is so shocking to so many women when they finally realize what is going on. And learn about abuse. ![Three of the Most Compelling Reasons to Learn the Facts About Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Three-of-the-Compelling-Reasons-We-Found-to-Learn-About-Abuse.webp "Three of the Compelling Reasons We Found to Learn About Abuse")**Brandi:** Absolutely. Absolutely. It’s hard to accept that as reality, absolutely. **Anne:** So one of the things that you love talking about, which I’m going to just preface this word carefully, because it’s a very triggering word for people. Because a lot of clergy use it as a weapon against victims, and then also therapists use it as a weapon. Maybe the abuser’s family uses this word as a weapon. And so let’s say the word. Everyone kind of brace yourself. Here we go. It’s forgiveness. The second reason to learn about abuse is that an emotional and psychological abuser will use forgiveness as a weapon. **Anne:** So people will say, well, you just need to forgive or he’s changed when he hasn’t. ## Determination Of What I Am Forgiving **Brandi:** Clergy, their pastor, their small group leader, they go to their family, some of their friends even. And they say what happens, and that scripture is used, you must forgive, you must forgive. And I’m like, what exactly am I forgiving? Because, okay, am I forgiving the acting out? Okay, but what caused the acting out? What informed my husband to betray me. And informed him to commit adultery? What informed him to watch exploitative material? What informed him to be unkind to only me? Also what informed him to abuse me? And ask them directly, is that what I’m forgiving? Is it that, or just the acting out? And where do we engage with who that person is, who my husband is, and what he has done to me? ![Three Compelling Reasons Why I Learned About Abuse and Think You Should Too](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Three-Compelling-Reasons-Why-I-Learned-About-Abuse.webp "Three Compelling Reasons Why I Learned About Abuse")And I believe when that question is asked, that is the place where true healing is for the victim of abuse. Because you’re saying, “Well, this is who you are, and what you’ve done to me. I’m accepting who you are.” I do have to move forward in time, but only after I have all the information and learn about abuse, and is that being addressed? It’s who he is being addressed and what he’s done. Is that being addressed? Or are you just using forgiveness as a weapon against me? And trying to fast forward me when I’ve been a victim and injured by his behavior, by his abuse. I’m injured, and you’re telling me to forgive when he has not even been addressed on who he is. ## The Necessity Of Boundaries When You Learn About Abuse **Brandi:** And for me, the violations against scripture, he violated God’s word. He violated God. He violated our family. And so I have to know who that person is, and then I’ll be on the journey to forgiveness. **Anne:** So let me see if I can restate. To forgive him, you have to acknowledge the truth, which is this is abuse. I know you’re an abuser. I’m forgiving you for being an abuser. Now that I know you’re an abuser and can forgive you, I need to also make sure I am safe from you. Because now that I know what you are, I can forgive and move on by setting boundaries, by making sure I’m as safe as possible, et cetera, et cetera. So am I correctly stating that? ![Three Compelling Reasons to Learn Facts About Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Three-Compelling-Reasons-To-Learn-About-Abuse.webp "Three Compelling Reasons to Learn About Abuse")**Brandi:** You are stating that absolutely correctly. Because once you delve into who he is, and learn about abuse, you know what you are actually forgiving. ## His Willful Decisions Are Dangerous To Emotional, Psychological & Spiritual Health **Brandi:** Number one, the hope is pastors, friends, clerks say, wait a minute, hold up. I’m actually not safe. His core of who he is has informed him to make these decisions to abuse. That is a choice. That was his willful decision. And she absolutely needs to get to a place of safety. That’s the hope. And if they don’t, then for the woman, wife, betrayed victim, it’s saying, wait a minute, hold up. That is who he is. I absolutely need to be in a place of safety. ![We Share Reasons Why We All Should Learn About Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Three-Compelling-Reasons-Why-Everyone-Should-Learn-About-Abuse.webp "Three Compelling Reasons Why Everyone Should Learn About Abuse")It does not automatically mean it’ll be reconciliation. That’ll be for the offender to do the work of changing his core of who he is. He has to reform who he is. But it does say, Hey, I need to be safe where there’s some separation. If you cannot leave, you wrap yourself in bubble wrap. You know exactly who you’re dealing with and learn about abuse. And you don’t have any surprises. You know exactly who he is. But now you know, that’s not lost on you or anyone else. And you know, your safety, the safety of your family is the primary focus. That’s what I mean when I say, what are you forgiving? Because that puts the highlight on who he is. **Anne:** Forgiveness is, I wouldn’t say, impossible, but very difficult without boundaries. Boundaries and safety enable that forgiveness. And it’s also part of this radical acceptance that everybody’s talking about. Where you’re like, oh, this person is dangerous or unhealthy, and they’re dangerous to my emotional health. They’re dangerous to my psychological health. And they’re dangerous to my spirit. And so. I’m going to forgive them for that. I’m sorry that that happened. And I’m going to ensure that doesn’t happen again by setting boundaries. ## Forgiveness Has Nothing To Do With Trust & Reconciliation **Anne:** Because we all know, hopefully we know. If you don’t, forgiveness has nothing to do with trust. It has nothing to do with reconciliation, nothing to do with communicating with your abuser. It is to set us free, and it takes time and is a process. And so anyone who expects forgiveness quickly, and also expects reconciliation, does not understand forgiveness. And is also not prioritizing your safety. **Brandi:** 100 percent agree. One BTR Coach even held up a diagram, what forgiveness is versus what trust is. You know, forgiveness requires nothing of the offender. It is unconditional. It is based on grace and trust, which requires much of the offender is conditional, and is based on works. ![Three Compelling Reasons to Get Real About Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Three-Compelling-Reasons-To-Get-Educated-About-Abuse.webp "Three Compelling Reasons to Get Educated About Abuse")And I love that. It’s just right from your book, Trauma Mama Husband Drama. And I love how it’s simply put, and it’s absolutely true. Forgiveness, in my humble opinion, doesn’t have to be a horrible word for those injured. And yet, it doesn’t give anyone the right to use it as a weapon. It is a process. It takes time. A lot of times, our husbands have kept this secret world and secret life for years, for years, and usually before they even met us. And so to find out and then in the next moment you’re supposed to forgive is unfair, and it should definitely not be used as a weapon of any sort. It is a process, and in time, forgiveness sets us free. It doesn’t mean there’ll be a reconciliation of any sort. Or It doesn’t mean you will automatically trust them at all. They have to do the work and learn about abuse. To gain the trust that they destroy it back. That’s their job. ## Setting Boundaries For Safety When You Learn About Abuse **Anne:** Those who have listened to this podcast from the beginning know that my voice now sounds so much different than it did in the beginning. Number one, because I altered it before because I was so terrified. Now this is my actual voice. But number two, my confidence, my peace, and my safety, have improved over time. And the reason is because I really prayed, studied, and discovered the strategies I now teach in the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). It was such a miracle to be enlightened with those strategies. And then to use them and see that they worked, and then to help other women use them. And then to create a detailed workshop to help women do it too. ![Three Compelling Reasons to Get Educated About Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Three-Compelling-Reasons-To-Become-Educated-About-Abuse.webp "Three Compelling Reasons to Become Educated About Abuse")I know so many of our [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session](https://www.btr.org/group/) clients use the [Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) as a session tool to learn how to set effective boundaries. Can you talk about that? **Brandi:** I love the Living Free Workshop. It’s helped me see that it’s really simple. Is this okay for me? No, it’s not okay. It’s absolutely not okay. Okay. Or okay, that is okay. Abuse is never okay. Scripture does not support abuse in any way, shape, or form. You can learn about abuse. It is not our role to submit to abuse, it is not okay. It is okay for us to maintain safe boundaries for ourselves and for our family. That is okay. And no one has that right to choose that for us. ## How To Determine The Truth, Is He Abusive? **Anne:** I experience this as I’m talking with victims all over the world. Many times they’ll say, He does this, it bothers me, but is this abuse? As if someone else needs to tell them what they’re experiencing is acceptable or not. They feel uncomfortable, then let’s say Anne Blythe of Betrayal Trauma Recovery says, “Oh, that’s fine. That’s not abuse. You need to learn about abuse.” ![Three Compelling Reasons Why We Learn About Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Three-Compelling-Reasons-You-Should-Learn-About-Abuse.webp "Three Compelling Reasons You Should Learn About Abuse")And they’d be like, well, I guess Anne said grabbing a cookie out of my hand, and shoving it in his face, isn’t abuse. So I guess I accept that. A few lessons in [Living Free](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/), go over this in detail, like lesson 11. Where you’re getting in touch with your own sacred internal warning system. So that you decide what makes you feel safe, and how to get to safety. I want to give women the confidence, nobody needs to tell you if it’s okay or not. Is it okay with you? Do you feel comfortable? Do you feel safe? That’s the only thing you need to pay attention to. If your clergy says, Oh, that’s not a big deal. All men do that. If a therapist is like, oh well, you just need to understand him more. Just think, is this acceptable to me? Is this something that I feel comfortable with in my own home? **Brandi:** Absolutely, I a hundred percent agree with that. Your woman’s intuition. It’s God given to you to use. It is beautiful. It is unique. And it identifies you and you know inside of yourself, oh, wait a minute. That is really not okay. Hold up. I did not feel safe. You know, introducing the proper words. Wait, are you safe? You know, can you be vulnerable? You know, it’s the truth in this relationship. ## Intuition Is Your Greatest Gift **Brandi:** Is a relationship honest? And your intuition is your greatest gift. Your own for you in time to be able to even validate yourself and say, wait a minute, I’m listening to my intuition. I am not safe. Oh, that was not communicated. Well, I was just gaslit. And I know that for myself. That is one of our goals at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. https://youtu.be/8FgurwYmD24 And I’m so thankful for that because a lot of times when a woman has been abused for so long, that part of her has been dismissed. She’s been taught to stuff it down. She’s been taught to listen to everybody else except herself. And that’s a woman’s greatest strength is her intuition. **Anne:** I think clergy concerns and therapist concerns are like, well, we don’t want to make a mountain out of a molehill. So we don’t want to call this abuse. And I think one of the reasons women are concerned about trying to learn about abuse is because they’re concerned that it will create abuse out of thin air when it didn’t exist before. ## 3. Learning About Emotional & Psychological Abuse Doesn’t Create Emotional & Psychological Abuse **Anne:** And so this is the third reason to learn about emotional and psychological abuse. To learn about abuse doesn’t create abuse, it just keeps you safe. If you listened to this podcast, or you enrolled in the [Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/), or you buy one of my books. And you read it and you’re like, this doesn’t relate, this isn’t what I’m experiencing. Then you can know it’s not abuse. It’s like a process of elimination. If he’s not abusive, you’re not going to relate. Learning about abuse doesn’t create abuse out of thin air. It helps you recognize what’s going on. The other thing that I have found is that as I have learned more about what abuse is, how it works, what the underlying issues are like control, manipulation, misogyny, things like that. I’ve also learned more about what healthy behaviors are, and I’ve actually felt more and more safe in the world because I can more clearly see abuse while it’s happening in real time. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) I can witness something and be like, oh, that’s abuse. In fact, I was at Sequoia National Park and there was a man and a woman. They had been waiting, but then a line formed, and even though they got into the line and got on the shuttle. So it wasn’t a problem, he said to her. “What’s wrong with you? We woke up at four o’clock in the morning to do this. Now we have to be at the back of the line, and I don’t know what’s wrong with you.” I stopped them and I pointed right at him at his chest and I said, what’s wrong with you? There’s nothing wrong with her. I don’t know what your problem is, but whatever it is, something is wrong with you. ## Making A Molehill Out Of A Mountain **Anne:** And then I tried to give her a compassionate look, but in that moment, I knew that is abuse. Like, I’m going to say something. And similarly with healthy men that I now observe, I’m like, oh, that’s healthy. That’s not abuse. Learning about abuse will not create abuse out of thin air, but may be there whether you know it or not. **Brandi:** Yes, and I was going to say the same thing. You know, the idea of creating a mountain out of a molehill is already there. It’s just a matter of whether you’re going to define it properly, diagnose it properly, identify properly as abuse, and get to safety. If anybody else recognizes this as the truth, the clergy, all those who would say that, and ignoring the actual abuse will not make it any better. So actually opening up and reading the book. Getting the information that will help you address, oh, this is who he really is. This is who has been in my house in my bed. This is my husband, and it strengthens you when you see. So I was like, well, we’ll have to figure this out. You have to see and learn about abuse in situations to actually stand up to it. And you identify it so much quicker, because now your intuition is informed. You’re like, oh, my intuition was telling me right. This entire time, and you’re strengthened, and you can know the difference and clearly identify it, especially if you’re not ignoring the mountain already there. Because the mountain is already there. It’s not a molehill. **Anne:** Yeah, what they’re doing is making a molehill out of a mountain. **Brandi:** Exactly, right. **Anne:** And that mountain is going to crush her. ## We Welcome Interfaith & Interparadigm Viewpoints To Learn Of Abuse **Brandi:** It will crush her. And then what? I mean, it’s so unfortunate, because they’ll say that. And by the time she’s actually at a place of saying something, the mountain is already crushing her. Then there’s more to come by the time she can even express herself. It doesn’t get better over time when it’s not addressed properly. **Anne:** Yes, exactly. So Betrayal Trauma Recovery is interfaith and interparadigm. We welcome everyone here. We have agnostics who listened to the podcast, atheists and Christians, Jewish women, everyone is welcome here to learn about abuse. When we speak from a perspective of a woman of faith, we’re just speaking from our own experience, but not necessarily telling other women that they need to process it this way. So because Christina is a woman of faith, you like to create value for yourself in God’s word. ## Dealing With Qualities Of Good & Evil **Anne:** Can you talk about how God’s word has helped you feel that you have value? **Brandi:** The idea that in God’s word, I’m worth more than the whole world to God. And that when he defines love, love is patient. kind, not rude, not boastful, and it doesn’t demand its own way. When we learn about abuse, we realize it is not from God. It’s not irritable. I mean, he’s talking about me and how much God loves me and in his love. Because I’m a woman, I’m supposed to believe I’m an object and an object of abuse? I’m neither. God made me, and he shaped me, and he loves me. And just like, there are way more scriptures about evil in the Bible, and that’s what he calls sin and what our husbands have done. He calls it evil. And he said husbands are supposed to love their wives. As Christ loves the church, and he died and gave himself for the church. And that’s what I love about God. That is my value. My value is not defined by this experience I’ve had with my husband. It’s already defined in God’s word. I don’t have to give anything away. ## Misinterpretation Of Scripture Can Rationalize Abuse **Brandi:** God has said I am loved and I am his. And that’s what I think I did in the beginning of my marriage and coming into the church. I believe the scripture was misappropriated. Ephesians chapter 5, and it was almost taught to us in the way that the husband acted any way he can, not nice. He can be unkind. He can stonewall he can, even DARVO. None of those things were addressed back then. And your job is, you’re just supposed to submit. And that is not true. I look at submission completely differently. It means under the mission, and the mission is Christ. We need to learn about abuse and be safe. The mission is not to be abused, punished, or an object. That is not Christ’s mission. The mission is Christ and his will, and my husband was supposed to submit to Christ. I submit to that. And the moment he did not, I have no responsibility to submit to him. **Anne:** Yeah, absolutely agreed. Yeah, for us Christians submitting to God, right. And submitting to truth, submitting to righteousness, is really important to us. And so many women feel like I need to submit to my husband, but they don’t realize what they’re submitting to is evil. They’re submitting to evil, and God does not want us to do that. **Brandi:** Not at all. ## Lies, Misogyny, Lack Of Integrity & Lack Of Empathy Are Character Issues Of Abusers **Brandi:** I believe Jesus said that when Satan lies, it’s in his character. He lies from his character. I thought that was so good when I joined Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Because I was so surprised, I kept hearing addiction and things like that. My husband had a addiction, and then to find out, oh no, this is his character. This was his choice, it was an integrity problem. He had an integrity abuse problem. I was blown away that no, this is a thinking problem. He’s misogynist, he has misogynistic thinking. And he lacked empathy. He had empathy for himself, but he definitely didn’t have empathy for his low wife and the misogynistic views he had for his wife. He didn’t have that. And so I just absolutely love the truth here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Because it calls it out for what it is, and no man, no husband, is above God’s word. He isn’t subjugated to other parts of scripture because he’s a husband. Where if he lies, it’s evil. He watches it, it’s evil. He commits adultery, it’s evil. If he has wickedness in his heart, it is evil. And that’s what God’s word says. And I’m sticking to that. **Anne:** Me too. So there’ve been several clergy people who tell me things like, well, looking at exploitative material isn’t adultery. And I’m like, I think Jesus would have the final say on that. And he says it’s adultery. Or, these men aren’t bad guys. And I’m like, well, you know, the scriptures call them wicked. So I think I’ll stick with what the scriptures say. Thank you very much. I find peace in the scriptures, and I find so much healing there that God hates this. He loves us and wants us to learn about abuse and safety. ## Abuse Creates A Faith Crisis For Victims **Anne:** For the women who find the scriptures triggery or difficult to read. Or church to be triggery or things like that, our heart goes out to you. So many women have decided to move away from their faith due to their abuse. I wanted to say from a [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org) perspective, we understand that too. What makes me sad in that situation. Depending on what the woman is like and wants, we always support her and what’s best for her as she starts to learn about abuse. What makes me sad about it is sometimes things women care about, like their faith or maybe other things. Let’s pretend like she really super cares about a certain football team. And that has been her identity, and she goes to all the football games, and she does a football party, and wears the jersey and everything. And then after she finds out her husband is an abuser and has been using football as a weapon against her. Then suddenly she loses the ability to find joy in her team, and she can’t throw parties anymore. Every time she sees the jersey, she just wants to throw up, right. And that’s the same thing with women and their faith sometimes, in that some women have a visceral reaction to a man in a suit and tie, for example, or someone reading scriptures or something. And so I just want to send out love and hugs to you. If you have lost something, no matter what, your faith, a football team, you know, could be. I don’t know, cheesecake, whatever it is. If you have lost something due to your husband’s abuse. ## When You Learn About Abuse, You Learn It’s Not Your Fault **Anne:** I’d encourage you to determine what things do serve you that you still love. And as you heal, reconnect with those things. Depending on what those are and where you’re at in your healing. I’m so grateful that you found [Betrayal Trauma Recovery ](https://www.btr.org)and have become part of our team. From your perspective now, what advice would you give to women who are just finding out about their husband’s use? **Brandi:** He hid that for years. I knew about that many years ago. And then it was something that, you know, he dealt with. The men in church said, don’t tell Brandi. And once he started back after four years, he hid it. And so I had a dream that he was hiding something that I found out about an affair. Which led me to learn about abuse and that he was still in using exploitative material and growing it the whole time. So if you’ve just found out about your husband’s lies. It is not your fault, and had nothing to do with the marriage. It had nothing to do with you. I hear it a lot of women talk about the areas where they feel like they fell short. Whether it’s communication or what they can give, even in the worst marriage, it’s still not your fault. And my hope is that you as a woman can rest and know that this is a hundred percent his issue, not yours. **Anne:** That’s really a good place to start. ## A Marker For Abuse **Anne:** The reason why I wanted to bring up use is that we talk so much about abuse here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. And abuse is hard to figure out, right? You’ve got all this stuff going on. Is it abuse? Is it not abuse? But one of the easiest markers is use. I just want to put everyone’s mind at ease or at, not at ease, I guess. It’s abuse if you know your husband uses exploitative material and lies about it, it’s the easiest marker. It’s like someone punching you. Some women say, “Oh, I just wish he would punch me in the face.” They don’t want to be punched in the face. But they’d know what was going on. Many women say that. I would say that is exactly the same thing you can say about exploitative material. If you know your husband has used, if you’ve seen it on his phone or have had some inkling it’s going on. That is another marker. And it’s just as clear as someone punching you in the face. The unfortunate thing about exploitative material is that if you get punched in the face with it, if you do see it, then you know. But they can hide it forever. Then, you could never know about it. So in that case, you have to look at all the other markers and learn about abuse. I think it’s important too, because it’s rarely brought up in mainstream abuse circles. Similarly, abuse is never talked about in the addiction recovery world. At Betrayal Truama Recovery, we want to bring all these things together, so women can have a clear, round picture of the truth and what is happening. ## Betrayal Trauma Recovery’s Comprehensive Support To Learn About Abuse **Anne:** We have such an amazing strong coaching team. All of them can help you implement the strategies you learn about abuse in the [Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/), or you can just attend a [Group Session](https://www.btr.org/group/) and start wherever you want. We are here for. you, no matter where you are in your journey. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Fighting A Narcissist For Custody - Tina's Story](https://www.btr.org/fighting-a-narcissist-for-custody/) **Published:** April 16, 2024 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Wondering how to fight for your children as you divorce your narcissistic abuser? Tina Swithin shares powerful insights. **Content:** Fighting a narcissist for custody is usually a complex, painful, and grueling process that can take years. Tina Swithin joins Anne to educate and empower victims as they fight for their children in and out of court. If you need support, learn about our [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/ "Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions"). ## \#Intimidation And More Abuse In A Custody Battle With A Narcissist ## A Custody Battle With A Narcissist When victims of narcissistic abuse start a custody battle, the narcissist might . . . - Turn family and friends against you, saying you’re crazy, abusive, a bad mom, etc. - Shame you for putting the children through a divorce - Threaten to take the children - Cut off financial support - Put cameras in your home, car, etc Expecting more emotional, psychological, and even physical abuse is a must for every woman in a custody battle with a narcissist. [BTR has Certified High Conflict Divorce Coaches, who can help you through the process.](https://www.btr.org/group/) Attend a BTR Group Session TODAY. ## \#2 Lies, Lies & More Lies In A Custody Battle With A Narcissist Divorcing a narcissist means dealing with lies and manipulation. It can be frustrating to hear the falsehoods and out of the courtroom. Narcissists lie to judges, attorneys, police officers, colleagues. They’ll even lie to your boss, family, friends, and children. Understanding why they do this is crucial. The [BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) explains their behavior and offers strategies to protect yourself during a custody battle. It’s especially hard when a narcissistic abuser lies to the court. Women often find themselves defending against things they haven’t done. ## The Narcissist Most courts don’t take narcissistic abuse seriously. Many women are treated as if they are crazy, lying, or exaggerating. Knowing this can help women plan ahead. Victims can: - Hire a lawyer who understands abuse and trauma - [Talk to a divorce expert, like a BTR Coach, for advice on how to act in court](https://www.btr.org/group/) - [Take The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) At BTR, we understand the fear that comes with a custody battle against a narcissist. The fear of losing your children can get intense. Every victim deserves a safe place to ask questions, and connect with others who understand. [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/) meet daily in every time zone. We’d love to see you in a Group Session TODAY. ![Fighting Narcissist for Custody](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Fighting-Narcissist-For-Custody.webp "Fighting Narcissist for Custody")Fighting a Narcissist for Custody## Transcript: Fighting A Narcissist For Custody **Anne:** Tina Swithin is joining me on today’s episode.I’m so honored that she’s willing to share her story with us. Tina survived, a category five divorce hurricane, while acting as her own attorney in a high conflict custody battle that turned her family’s life upside down for 10 years. She took shelter from the storm by chronicling her journey in her now internationally recognized blog, [One Mom’s Battle](https://www.onemomsbattle.com/ "One Mom's Battle"), with all odds against her. Tina’s battle ended on August 30th, 2019. When she successfully terminated her ex-husband’s parental rights. She continues to champion children’s rights through her family court advocacy. Welcome, Tina. **Tina:** Thank you so much for having me. I’m absolutely honored to be here. ![when You're fighting a narcissist for custody](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/fighting-a-narcissist-for-custody.webp "Fighting a Narcissist for Custody")## Dealing With Hidden Abuse **Anne:** Tina. You are impressive. Your story and resources inspired me to believe that I could also be delivered. From the post-separation and [financial abuse in divorce](https://www.btr.org/financial-abuse-in-divorce/ "financial abuse in divorce") that my children and I went through. And we did. And I now teach women’s strategies. I used to get free in the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop.](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/ "Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop.") My listeners are all women experiencing hidden abuse in one form or another. So women who [listen to this podcast without their husband knowing ](https://www.btr.org/how-do-you-listen-to-a-podcast/)are generally at the beginning of their journey in recognizing the abuse. For example, they may have found exploitative material on a computer, or suspect their husband is having an affair. Women who listen to this podcast in general have found something about their husband and are trying to grapple with, what do I do now? Although many women who use services at Betrayal Trauma Recovery are already divorced. But talking about women who are not thinking of divorce may be thinking, “Let’s try couple’s therapy, or maybe if I could get him a diagnosis, that would help.” ![Getting into a Custody Fight with Narcissist](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/custody-fight-with-narcissist.webp "Custody Fight with Narcissist")I’d love your perspective on what they need to prepare for, just in case, even if they’re not sure if they want to get divorced. Sort of like having a savings account, you know, you never want to lose your job, but you have a savings account just in case you do. Can we start there? ## Recognizing Narcissistic Abuse **Anne:** It’s so hard especially when your [in-laws are emotionally abusive](/in-laws-are-emotionally-abusive/) too. What do you wish you had known years before you even recognized your husband was a narcissist? **Tina:** Absolutely. I relate so much to the foundation of your program. In my situation, it was a infidelity of sorts. When I had my awakening, that something was really off. I found out that we had debt over a million dollars, and he did that behind my back. Still, to this day, with all the information I have. I can’t. grasp that amount of money, how someone can go in debt to that degree. So I had my entire world pulled out from under me. I ended up on a therapist’s couch, because the gaslighting was so intense, desperate to understand my role. Still trying to take ownership of issues and understand what I could do to fix him. ![How to Fight a Narcissist for Custody](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Screenshot-2024-09-04-at-110205%20AM.png "Should I Fight a Narcissist for Custody")I still remember I had never heard the term narcissistic personality disorder. My therapist gave me those three words and had me read the description. I was relieved, because I thought, Oh my gosh, if I know what we’re dealing with. If there’s a label, if there’s a diagnosis, even though she couldn’t diagnose him, but she said, I think you’re a victim of narcissistic abuse. Back then, I was a fixer, so in my mind, I was so excited to have something to work with. ## Desire To Fix The Relationship **Anne:** Yeah, that desire to resolve it is actually a form of resistance to abuse. Finding out you have a [narcissistic husband ](https://www.btr.org/narcissistic-husband/ "narcissistic husband ")gave you something to fix. It’s one of the many ways victims try to get to safety. So you were always working towards safety, resisting the abuse. By going to therapy, trying to resolve the problem. Resistance comes in different forms. And as we learn more effective strategies. We can actually start to gain some traction and start making our way to safety. But yeah, it’s so common to think that like, “Oh, I can go to therapy with him and we can actually resolve this. We can get help.” ![How a Custody Case with Narcissist Works](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/custody-case-with-narcissist.webp "Custody Case with Narcissist")**Tina:** Yeah, I remember going home and telling him, “She said, you’re a narcissist.” We looked it up. Six months later, I understood she was trying to tell me: there is no fixing this. This is either your life or you leave. And it took me a while to grasp that. So I would have had time to plan, but back then, there were no resources for this type of situation. I’m really thankful for the work you’re doing, because it gives people information on how to prepare for something like this. ## Fighting A Narcissist For Custody Begins **Tina:** I don’t know if you can ever fully be prepared. But things that I wish I would have done differently. I’m getting a full financial picture of our situation. I was in the dark with finances, to the point where I had no idea how much money we had. We lived in a gated community, in a nice home. If I wanted a car, we got me a new car. And I lived a life where I had no insight. Grocery money is in my checking account. But I am kept in the dark. So when our divorce and child custody battle started. I didn’t know what to put on that paperwork. I truly had no idea where the money was, what was happening. And for that reason, I started my new life and my new chapter with less than $200 to my name. I suffered financial abuse, which was a huge part of the abuse I suffered. Although during the marriage, I didn’t know that was financial abuse. I just thought he took care of everything. And when we ended up in the family court system, he hired an attorney. ![A Little Know Red Flag that Reveals a Narcissist](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/gvxpK9yloco/maxresdefault.jpg) I was not. I stood in court like a deer in the headlights. With no knowledge of the system, I had never been in court. I am very conflict avoidant by nature, and so it was a very uneven playing field. It’s not what you know, it’s what you can prove. And I wasn’t able to prove anything. I was at a huge disadvantage. ## Documenting Abuse While Fighting For Custody **Tina:** I would have also been documenting the issues directly related to my children, and how he affected them. I look back and want to hug myself 12 years ago, because in my naive mind, he had never participated in our daughter’s lives. He had never changed a diaper. He never cared to be involved. And so I assumed I would continue parenting, and he would have limited involvement. Well, that’s not what happens when you [divorce a narcissist.](https://www.btr.org/divorcing-a-narcissist/ "divorce a narcissist.") He knew that the children were all I cared about. And so you can imagine that’s exactly where he went. But I had no proof. In reality, a lot of it doesn’t matter. If somebody stands up in the family court system and says, Hey, I’ve never been a parent. But I’m here, put me in coach, they’re going to give them the opportunity. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) But I needed to document the things that were damaging to my children. The abuse, the emotional abuse, the short temper, things where his behaviors obviously affected my children. **Anne:** So you hear the therapist tell you maybe he’s a narcissist. And the only thing you can do with a narcissist is just [survive narcissistic abuse](https://www.btr.org/surviving-narcissistic-abuse/ "urvive narcissistic abuse"). And you start thinking, okay, “Well maybe we can get help now.” I want to talk about this stage for a minute, because many women are trying to get help for their husband. Again, that’s a form of resistance, because you’re trying to make sure the abuse stops. I found that a lot of women in this stage don’t want to get divorced. Because divorce is not an option for them. They also don’t want education about divorce. ## Loneliness & Seeing Who He Really Is **Anne:** In my situation, I didn’t file for divorce, he did, and I was unprepared. So once we find out something serious about our husband, even if divorce isn’t on the table for us. Being prepared for what could happen is so important. Because once we see reality, once we see a narcissist, and begin fighting a narcissist for custody, we see who he really is, We don’t know what he’s going to do. So in the [Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/), we actually have a section about financial safety. Even if women aren’t considering divorce, so they can be financially safe. No matter what’s going to happen. Can you talk about that time after the therapist told you her theory that he was a narcissist, and after you confronted him? And said, “Hey, she said you’re a narcissist, let’s try to figure this out.” **Tina:** Two years before I ended up on that therapist’s couch, I had emotionally checked out. I knew things were really wrong. I remember sitting down with him one day and saying, I feel that if someone even gave me a hug right now, I would have an affair with them and that is not who I am. Also, I never cheated on anyone in my life, but I was trying to describe to him how lonely I felt. I was married, but I never felt more alone in my life. Even when I was single, I have not felt this isolated and alone. It was around that time that I ended up in the therapist’s office. He refused to go. ## Therapy & Gaslighting **Tina:** So when she gave me those words that started my journey to enlightenment on the topic, I went home. He listened to what I had to say. And he said, that doesn’t sound like me. That sounds like my dad. And in my mind, I’m laughing going, well, he and his dad are the same person. But at that point, he knew that I was ready to leave. And so he agreed to go to therapy with me. But here’s the funny part. He insisted it be a man, and it be a PhD. So we found this psychologist, and spent six months in what could be described as marital therapy. And it was at about the six month mark, where we unpacked everything and it was all out there. And the psychologist said, “I really think you should do a psychological evaluation. I think there could be a personality disorder or something deeper that I’m not qualified to diagnose.” That was the day my ex-husband said our marriage was over. We drove there in separate cars, and he called me afterwards. And said, “I just called the psychologist and told him that we’re done with marriage therapy and that it’s over. Because you have successfully manipulated him.” The gaslighting, and I’m thinking, did I manipulate him? I was just sharing our truth. I remember feeling like I was punched in the gut during the marriage therapy. The therapist originally wanted to meet with me privately, then him privately, and then us both together. ## Therapist Recognizes Husband’s Lies & Abuse Escalates **Tina:** But his lies were so thick, and I was constantly saying, but that’s not what happened. This is what happened. To the point where the therapist said, “I don’t feel comfortable meeting with him alone, because I can’t trust anything he says. I need Tina here to verify the truth.” **Anne:** That is so remarkable. In so many cases I hear about, the therapist believes him. That the therapist took this, stepped back and was like, “Mmm, he’s not telling the truth.” That is a good therapist right there. **Tina:** Absolutely. I’m so grateful, not only for the one who originally planted the seed, but also for that one, because for me, it was validation, and most people don’t get that. Even in the world of therapy, there are so many therapists and psychologists who are not trained in narcissistic abuse. To where I wouldn’t have received that validation from most mental health professionals. So I’m incredibly grateful. That was the end of our marriage. The irony is that I wasn’t the one who filed for divorce. I wish it was just him going in and filing. It was actually him terrorizing me before he filed for divorce. I had gone to my sister’s house for the weekend, and he basically had moving vans ready. The second I pulled out of the driveway. He took everything I owned, completely stripped my house bare. ## Bizarre Behaviors **Tina:** It was the most bizarre chilling scene to walk back into. He had redecorated my bedroom to look like that of a toddler’s. It’s hard to even describe to this day, cleared my house of every material possession that I owned, so that he could go in and say that all happened during our marriage, and we have no assets. And then the next day he went and filed for divorce. Very sociopathic, is what a lot of professionals have pointed out to me. **Anne:** That is so crazy. And so chilling. It reminds me of when my ex, we were married, had a protective order, and he came to remove all his stuff out of the house. I wasn’t there, but my dad was. My dad said it was the strangest and most bizarre scene. He said my ex acted as if he were going on a camping trip. Not packing up his entire life, and leaving his own home, his own children, and his own wife. It was as if nothing happened and he was just packing up. For, you know, a couple of days. And it’s so chilling and weird. So I really empathize with that. You talked about two things you wish you would’ve known. So the first was to be more aware of the finances. And the second was to document the damage he’d done to your children because you would soon be dealing with custody. Let’s talk about the divorce process itself. And how many bizarre things can use the actual divorce process as an extension of the abuse to continue abusing. ## Post-Separation Abuse When Fighting For Custody **Tina:** Right, and before we do that, I want to add, a third one. That I think, in reflection, in hindsight, that I would really emphasize is choosing your battles wisely. The narcissist will invite you to so many different battles. And when you engage in every one of them, it muddies the water for the family court system. So then It looks like you’re both high conflict. So that would be the third one that I would add, in addition to the financial picture and documentation. Is really choosing your battles wisely and being aware of what the court cares about and what they don’t. And then, to answer your question, I refer to it as post separation abuse, everything that happens from the day of your separation, and sometimes even leading up to the day of separation, the calculating and the manipulation that goes on behind the scenes. The post separation abuse that I experienced was by far worse than the abuse I suffered during our marriage. Post separation abuse can be the smear campaigns. We live in a very small town, a small community, and we were both very active in the business community. He went on an absolute smear campaign in an effort to further isolate me and make sure that I had no friends or resources. I mean, he told people that I had all these affairs. That was not true. He was concerned about my mental health around the children when I was fighting for custody. That was not true, but when people know both of us as this golden couple in the community, and someone says something like this, you know, why would someone make that up? I think that’s what many people are left with, unless there was truth. ## Grooming & Using Children as Pawns **Tina:** Using my children as pawns, as weapons in our custody battle, was another difficult thing for me to grasp. Because during the marriage, I protected my kids. I sheltered them. I went to great lengths to ensure they were away from him whenever he was in a mood or whatnot. And then their children are now in, and he said, “You know, you don’t have to take care of this person, and you have no control.” I had a hard time with that. And he knew the kids were the way to hurt me. **Anne:** So many women I talk to when they’re considering separation will say something like, Oh, he would never do that. He told me it’s okay, and I think to myself, grooming, grooming, grooming, grooming, just wait a second. You’ll see a different side of him than you have ever seen before. When you haven’t separated yet, he has some modicum of control over you or power over you. That’s what they thrive on. So post separation, they’re just desperately trying to get control back. Parts of them come out that you’ve never seen before . So what would you say to a woman who says that? Like, “oh, he’ll never do that. He’s a good guy. We’ve talked about it before. I’ve been the primary caregiver. He wants to do the right thing.” what would you say to her? **Tina:** I tell people take the darkest example of who that person was during your relationship on his absolute worst day or his worst rage or the worst, day of abuse. That is who you are dealing with at a core level. And everything else is just a mask. ## Setting Boundaries While LItigating With A Narcissist For Custody **Tina:** The family court system to some degree allows you to start having boundaries, whether it be, with communication or the parenting time schedule, they don’t like that for me. I thought during my marriage, a boundary was police tape law enforcement put up. That’s the only thing I really knew about boundaries. I had none. And so for me to say, you know, you can call the kids between six o’clock and eight o’clock at night. That was a boundary. Something that small would spin the person. They’re triggered by boundaries so be aware of this when dealing with a narcissist in a custody battle. They’re triggered by you having a voice, becoming empowered, and they have to continue to try to exert control. In the court system, they can keep that mask on very tight because it’s, it’s a high for them to fool everybody in the court system. But that dark person, that rage that you saw at whatever point in your relationship, that is who you are dealing with outside of the court. And. The children become their primary weapons. I don’t care what they said during the relationship. All of it is fair game in their eyes to keep control. And sometimes that’s extreme. **Anne:** So for women listening to this and considering divorce. And they’re thinking, wait a minute, Tina just said it gets worse. Wait a minute. Tina just said the abuse is, and I would agree, it’s always going to get worse before it gets better. So you can think Tina and Anne said this. And they’re like, why would I get divorced then? Why would I try to start setting these boundaries. What would you say to them? ## Teaching Children & Fighting A Narcissist For Custody **Tina:** On any given day, I receive between a hundred and 500 emails. The most heartbreaking, heart wrenching emails I receive on any given day. Are from the moms who say, “20 years ago, we didn’t have this type of education. And I was afraid to leave, and now my children have grown, and they carry on the cycle either as the abuser, or as a victim of abuse. And my daughter is now married to an exact replica of my husband.” So my opinion is even if I walk into that courtroom and get 50 -50 when fighting for custody, First of all, I don’t believe there’s anything permanent in family court. I am very much of the mindset that, okay, great, if that’s my starting point, I’m going to chip away at it until I can put my head on my pillow at night and know that my kids are safe. And I know that triggers people and they go, oh my , I can’t imagine not having my kids 50 percent of the time. When your kids are growing up in a situation where they don’t have any area to see what healthy looks like, it is more damaging, in my opinion. Even if I had my children 50 percent of the time to show them what healthy looks like, to show them what empowerment looks like, to teach them about boundaries, and to listen to their gut and instincts, and that their voice matters. I used to teach my kids at a very early age, what red flags were. My daughter would come home from the playground and she’d say, mom, this girl did this, and it was a red flag. ## When Your Children Have To Spend Time With Them **Tina:** And so we don’t have the opportunity to teach our kids those things when we live in red flags. When that is your life. Yeah, you have the ability to show them a solid, healthy foundation, lead by example, and be their role model. You have way more power to protect your kids over the long haul than you would in that relationship. **Anne:** Yeah, that’s important for women to think about when fighting for custody. The example they are to their children is setting boundaries. I like to think of it as two fishbowls. The bowl he is in will always have cloudy water. And if you’re also living in that fishbowl, they’re not going to see things clearly, but if you live in a fishbowl with clear water. Then when they are in the fishbowl with you, everything will be clear and you’ll set a good example. When they’re in the fishbowl with him, it will be cloudy, but then they’ll start to recognize, oh, the water over here is clean and the water over there is cloudy. And they can start telling the difference. In your book, The Narcissist Decoder, you put some of your X’s insane emails in there as an example. I did something similar to that in the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) where for years I gathered abusive messages, both my own. And then also women that I helped. So those are real abusive messages in there. And then examples of how to respond to them and your book. The narcissist decoder is similar. ## Abusive Messaging When Coparenting with A Narcissist **Anne:** Your ex was an alcoholic, which you could prove, you could prove that he showed up late frequently. [The Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) includes examples from five different real life abusers. So you can see the different abusive styles in these messages. I’ve included my own X’s messages in the Living Free Workshop. My ex is an attorney, he wrote everything perfectly. He didn’t swear. He gaslit a ton. But it sounded so good. Then in real life, he always showed up on time. He brought them back on time. Tina, from your perspective, what recommendations would you have for women in situation with a narcissist a cunning, but squeaky clean type narcissist during custody? **Tina:** That’s a really difficult situation, and it’s one that’s fairly common. You know, you have those who are much better at impression management, is what I call it. The CEOs, the sales guys, the ones who, their livelihood depends on their image. Or they’re very savvy and would never put something in writing that’s going to give you the ammunition to show, you know, look, their words and actions are not in alignment. Something that I’m big on is profiling exactly who you’re up against. ## Empowering Children **Tina:** Time hop in your mind. If you time hop one year, three years or five years, is this person capable of parenting? Because what we know is that parenting can be selfless work. It can be tedious. Where there’s not a lot of supply you can get from your kids when you’re doing the monotonous, day-to-day parenting stuff. A lot of these people, what you’ll see is that over time, they’ll cancel on parenting time, or they have a big event that they go to, So sometimes it’s just chipping away at it from that angle. When the battle dies down and they’re not getting supply from constant court dates, a lot of them tend to phase out of the picture or they’ll start leaving the kids with other people. I call the discarding of the kids, where, for 50-50. But then you’ll find they’re leaving your kids with their mom or caregiver. And so then you’re documenting and building your case from that perspective. It is very difficult to go up against somebody who is very savvy with what they put in writing. Those are things that are out of our control. So if you have somebody who presents so well and is never going to give you what you need to hold them accountable in court, that’s where your focus and your energy becomes empowering your kids during these custody battles. Like I touched on a minute ago, um, you know, really strengthening them and empowering them. So they are resistant to their [husbands gaslighting](https://www.btr.org/husband-gaslighting/ "husbands gaslighting"). ## Narcissistic Relationships While In A Custody Battle **Tina:** They know that they have boundaries that are physical, emotional, and psychological. Really creating labels for all of those things that many of us didn’t learn. So sometimes the focus just becomes empowering our kids to withstand something like this and to connect the dots on their own. I tell people you can empower your kids and teach them what healthy looks like and what toxic looks like without ever pointing the finger at their other parent. And when they come home and connect those dots by themselves, it’s much more powerful than anything you could ever say. And in those things, situations. That’s where we see that preteens or teenagers recognize how dysfunctional the other parent is. They become their own empowered little warriors to say, “I’m not going this weekend.” **Anne:** You mentioned the word toxic. When people say toxic relationship, the hairs on the back of my neck stand up . Same thing with high conflict divorce. These are words that imply that both of them have a problem. They’re not good for each other. Rather than recognizing there’s a toxic person, poisoning the relationship and the other person’s healthy, but she’s getting sick from his poison. Or the same thing with high conflict divorce, you’re literally just trying to tell the truth. You’re literally just trying to hold on to reality. And the reason why it’s such a huge fight and the conflict is so enormous is that there’s another person who will not live in reality. There’s nothing to do, but conflict in that situation. Can you talk about how the family court sees that and how to navigate that unfortunate neutrality bias? I’ll call it that, their bias toward neutrality rather than recognizing abuse. ## Family Court System Bias **Tina:** Right, we’re up against a situation in the court system where judges are not educated on domestic violence. In fact, I’ve been compiling some numbers. Many states have zero requirements for judges training in domestic violence. The ones with training requirements. It is minimal. My 15 year old daughter is more educated on domestic violence than most judges. Just like my judge actually said to me, you chose this person to marry. You chose this person to have children with, it’s not my job to fix this situation. That was a huge gut punch. But, in hindsight, I’m actually big on radical acceptance and managing my expectations. So, as hard as that was for me to hear, I was glad he was open with his train of thought. Because then it allowed me to adjust. The direction I was going, and not look towards the court to be my savior or protector. And most judges would never actually verbalize that, but I can guarantee you they’re all thinking that. You’re in a system that blames the victim. It’s important to know that going into the system so that you can adjust your expectations. The easy stamp or label for family court professionals to put on these cases is high conflict. And then the burden is on us to show that we are not part of the problem. And that’s very much an ultra marathon to do that. But it’s critical that all of the decisions that we make go towards Showing that we are the healthy part of the equation, and it can take time. In my case, it was probably year six before the court really recognized that he was the problem. ## Presenting Your Custody Case When In Court With A narcissist **Tina:** And for me, that was keeping my communication. It was my goal to paint a picture and present it as the healthiest co parent they had ever seen. That was my authentic truth. If I had a healthy co-parent, I would be a lottery win for somebody in the co-parenting department. And so it was important for me to operate from my place of authentic truth. That came across during our custody battle. In my written communication with him, in my presentation in the court, or with child custody evaluators. I remember going through my second custody evaluation and saying to the evaluator, I understand this appears to be a high conflict divorce. And I am somebody who can self-reflect to a fault. I am open to your feedback or expertise. If you see areas where I could be doing something different, I am a sponge. I will absorb that. I will put it into play, because I’m truly at a loss. for how to continue navigating the situation where I’m fighting a naarcissist for custody. So those types of descriptors show that I am not part of the conflict. One of the missing components in the court system is data and research on this topic. Santa Clara University came out with a paper, and it has to do with high conflict individuals in the court system and the toll they can take on the system. But also on these cases, and that is fantastic to start seeing that type of dialogue happening and research. Because other than that, you know, even when somebody goes through the court system, and maybe they’re so desperate to get a psychological evaluation that shows they’re dealing with a narcissist or someone in the antisocial personality disorder category. ## Psychological Evaluations & Lack Of Education On Abuse **Tina:** I see the desperation, and most of the time, they can’t get that. psychologist will not actually come out and diagnose them. They’re going to say the person has high traits. That’s not a diagnosis, and it does you no good. And then there’s a lack of education in the court system on what that actually means. So, if you are one of the rare ones that gets a solid diagnosis, now you’ve got a stack of papers that cost probably $20,000 and they still do you no good in the court system. Because of that lack of research on this issue. Psychologists, a lot of them, understand narcissistic personality disorder as DSM. But there’s no deeper research that shows how these people affect children or co- parenting situations or the legal arena. And that’s what’s desperately needed to make changes and to educate the court system on what we’re all dealing with. **Anne:** For someone who had a bad experience with in court fighting for custody, or who’s in the middle of a court proceeding, who is just worried or scared or thinks, is this going to work or am I going to be worse off than I was before? Do you have any words of wisdom for them? **Tina:** Keep your tank full. It’s so easy to get beaten down by the system. I’ve had so many dark days to where I really questioned if I could keep doing this. The reality is, You never know what’s around the next corner. I have seen the most dire circumstances do a complete 180. ## Settling Outside of Court **Tina:** I have seen things that you would never believe unfold. Some of this, is when somebody is feeling so beaten down and failed by the system. And then you just never know what’s around that next corner. Our kids need us to keep our oxygen mask on. And 10 years ago, if you would have asked me, refilling my tank meant a day spa for a full day. Now you could set my alarm 10 minutes before my kids get up to have some alone time and quiet and collect my thoughts and gratitude. It sounds so cliche, but during the darkest days of my custody battle, that gratitude journal. was what kept me going, and sometimes all I could find grateful for was that the sun was shining or for my next breath. If I had advice for people in general, in these situations, any time you can settle outside of court, it’s in your best interest. And sometimes that’s knowing what’s important to the other party, using it as leverage, getting in and out of the court system as quickly as you can. Because In the majority of these cases, especially when there’s no fight left, they don’t have to keep the mask on anymore because there’s no one watching from the court system. And the excitement of fighting you is done, and that’s where the kids start to catch on that this is not normal. He is not healthy. ## Custody Evaluations **Tina:** And the kids start to take a stand. A lot of times when we see that happening, The kids are a threat to him. For image reasons, if he’s got a 13 year old that’s sulking and isn’t posing for the cute Instagram photos anymore because they’ve called him out, they know who he is, they become a threat to their image. And so that’s where you’ll see them discard the oldest child or start returning the kids early or cutting their parenting time short. Usually, once the fight is done, this isn’t really what they want to do. If you’re appointed a family court professional to investigate. I would want to know every single thing I could about that family court professional to know what their biases are. For example, if a custody evaluator or a GAL was appointed. **Anne:** When you say GAL, just for my listeners, that means guardian ad litem. So that’s someone who’s representing the children in tthe custody case. **Tina:** Right, and some people in some states, it’s called minor’s Counsel, but yeah, it’s an attorney representing the child, and sometimes it’s not even an attorney, but that’s where it’s so important to know your system and to know everything you can about the judge, the Minor’s Council, GAL, the evaluator, because my strategy with one You know, custody evaluator would be completely different than it would be with the next custody evaluator. ## Knowing Your Court Professionals **Tina:** And there’s an example I use, there’s a courthouse in California. I’m not going to say which town it is, but, um, there’s two family court judges. If I were in courtroom, a presenting my case, I would present it one way. If I was in courtroom B, I would present an entirely different way, just based on what I know about the case and each judge. One of those judges lost her son to a drug overdose, and so she takes addiction issues very seriously. In my case, my ex -husband was a raging alcoholic, so I would highlight and emphasize the addiction component and how it was affecting my kids in courtroom A, but I know in courtroom B, That judge doesn’t care about alcohol. He’s probably a drunk himself. And so, you know, my presentation, depending on who the GAL is or who the evaluator or judge is, night and day different. And people don’t really put enough weight into that. You need to know who these people are, what biases they potentially bring. Maybe they’re very father focused and believe that dads should have 50-50, maybe they are more trained in the tender years where, you know, they know that a primary parent is important. So it’s really difficult to say there is no one size fits all approach. It really comes down to who the professional is. The narcissist craves power. If you’re up for a custody evaluation or minor’s counsel, your job is to choose three. That you would be perfectly okay with and then submit that to the other side and give them the power and control that they crave to be able to make the final decision. ## Choosing Court Professionals **Tina:** I would ask your attorney about potential minor’s counsel that you could be appointed, and everything they know about each person. So you’ll make your own list of potential biases, the good, the bad, the ugly for each person. And then anywhere you can look online, do the research on everyone in your area, write out surrounding cities, and start educating yourself on who it could potentially be. If you’ve done the background work on who the professional is, and you know, you get GAL A. When you are fighting for custody, then it’s a no go, and that’s where you settle. I say strategy is so important in these situations, but this is such an emotional topic for us. It’s easy for me to sit here and say, you know, strategy, strategy. If my ex sent me an email right now. It would completely trigger me and spin me, but overall strategy is important. That’s where keeping ourselves centered, getting to a higher vantage point so we can look at it through the lens of strategy and not emotion, and keeping our strategy fluid, because you never know when there’s going to be a turn in the road and you have to readjust. And go, okay, well, that wasn’t the direction I was planning to go, but I already had the other route mapped out. And so now here are a few new options that present themselves. Remember, the court doesn’t know either of you. You know what a monster you are up against when fighting a narcissist for custody, and it’s an area where I reflect back. I was so focused on the light bulb moment I had recently had. I have just been given a term. ## Proving Your Case **Tina:** I know he’s a monster, and I’m so eager to share that with everyone. And looking back, it took me six years into my marriage to recognize what a problem this was. He doesn’t know either of us. And for all the judge knows, I could be a pathological liar. So keeping in mind, it’s not what you know, it’s what you can prove. And starting to scrub down what matters to the court in getting the best custody arrangement, an attorney told me early in my battle that even liars and jerks are allowed to be parents. So that has to factor into your radical acceptance equation, and knowing what’s important, but keeping in mind they don’t know either of you. And so presentation is critical until they get to the point where they start recognizing the problems in the other person. **Anne:** It’s heartbreaking and frustrating, and I’m actually enraged. By the fact that abuse victims who have suffered so much, who are doing the right thing in fighting for custody. The burden of proof is on them. When I went through it, I was infuriated. That I had all the information and couldn’t get the help I needed. It’s so triggering to talk about strategy. But also so important. ## BTR Living Free Workshop **Anne:** That’s why I put all the strategies I used in the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). Because I thought everyone needs to know these, no matter what stage you’re in. The sooner women learn these strategies for fighting a narcissist, the safer they will be throughout the whole process. No matter where you are in the process, no matter if you’re still married and you’re just considering what am I going to do. Even if divorce isn’t even an option for you. These strategies will work no matter what situation you’re in. The workshop is amazing. It has a workbook and short videos. After each video, if you want to process the information deeply, there’s a question, and you can spend some time filling out that question. If you’re exhausted and want to run through the video super fast. You can just type in there and push enter. And that will take you to the next video. Same thing with the workbook. You can take a lot of time to fill it out and process everything. Or you can just fill it out a tiny bit and move on. Or not fill it out at all, but make sure that you do have the workbook in front of you so that you know, what it entails. Some women watch all the videos first and then they’re like, that was really good. And then they go through it a second time, so they can be like, okay, I’m going to learn these strategies on a deep level. ## Tina’s Advocacy Work **Anne:** Tina you are amazing. Your work is amazing. You continue to do great work across the country. You helped pass Om’s Law passed here in my state. Kayden’s law passed in other states. Your advocacy is imperative to victim safety. And I appreciate you so much. Thank you so much for sharing your story today. **Tina:** Thank you so much. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Emotional Abuse and Infidelity: The Link No One Sees](https://www.btr.org/emotional-abuse-and-infidelity/) **Published:** June 13, 2023 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Here's what an emotionally abusive man who was unfaithful will sound like. **Content:** Did you know that emotional abuse and infidelity always happen together? If your husband has been unfaithful, take this [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/) to see if you’re experiencing any of the 19 types of emotional abuse that occurs with infidelity. ## Betrayal Is Abuse Because It Involves All These Psychological Abuse Tactics #### 1. **Lying** He lies to hide infidelity, secret spending, or pornography use. Betrayal never happens without lying. Hiding things like watching pornography, having secret relationships, or not being honest about money are forms of abuse. This kind of lying is meant to control the situation and stop the victim from making choices to keep herself safe. #### 2. **Gaslighting** He makes his wife question her own feelings, memories, and what she sees. He tells her she’s remembering things wrong or that she’s just overreacting, even when something is clearly wrong. Abusers tell lies or create a fake version of what’s real to stay in control. This makes victims feel confused because their gut tells them one thing, but the abuser’s words or actions say something different. ![Help For Betrayal Trauma](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/bpwEpb2khco/maxresdefault.jpg) #### 3. **Breaking Down Confidence** Abusers slowly hurt a person’s self-esteem over time. They might do this by always criticizing them, making mean jokes about them, or ignoring their feelings. Want to learn more about the 19 types of emotional abuse? Take this [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ## Why Infidelity is Abusive Betrayal isn’t just about broken trust—it affects how victims see themselves and the world. When an abuser manipulates or lies, it interferes with the victim’s ability to trust their own instincts. Over time, this puts her in more and more danger. ## How to Spot Abusive Betrayal Here are signs that betrayal is abuse: - **Blaming you for their wrongdoings** (e.g., “It’s your fault I did this”) - **Hiding or denying harmful actions**. - **Criticizing or minimizing your emotions** when you bring up concerns. - **Using religious or cultural systems** to justify harmful behavior. ## Healing From Betrayal Healing from betrayal takes time, but here are steps you can take: - **Acknowledge the Abuse**: Learn more about this type of abuse by listening to [The FREE Betrayal Trauma Betrayal Recovery Podcast](/podcast/) - [**Get the Right Support**: Join our online betrayal trauma support group.](https://www.btr.org/group/) - **Learn Safety Strategies To Protect Yourself:** Enroll in [The Clarity After Betrayal Workshop](/clarity/) to discover if your husband is emotionally abusive and learn emotional safety strategies to protect yourself. Remember, you deserve respect and honesty, always. ## Why Infidelity is Emotionally Abusive If he’s unfaithful, he’ll subtly pretend like he’s not the type to be unfaithful, which is emotional abuse. If he’s cheated on you, but he’s said anything like the statements below, he’s emotionally abusive: - Showing immense (false) compassion for women who have been cheated on - Showing immense (false) compassion for men who have cheated on their wives, offering spiritual, religious, or emotional support to them and offering to be his “good husband” mentor or supporting the guy on his “journey to change” - Bearing testimony or other public forms of admission of their *prior life* as a cheater (even if it was last week); - Enrolling in or starting a program to help unfaithful men change (becoming a life coach, abuse coach, new-age coach, fitness coach, counselor, therapist, 12-step sponsor, religious leader, becoming active or more active in church communities, yoga guru, cult leader, social media influencer, or self-published author) - Insisting that others do not label them as previous or currently “abusive”, but rather someone who used to be a sinner or some other euphemism, even though he’s still lying and manipulating everyone around him If they’re unable to find success, they often claim it’s because they are victims. Those who ruined their reputations thwart them. Perhaps their faith community excommunicated them or they lost credibility in their community due to an arrest. ## Emotional Abuse and Infidelity May Sound Like This Be warned: If he says, “Don’t worry, if you choose to divorce, I understand. I’ll always take care of you and make sure you and the kids are provided for no matter what you decide,” there is a HIGH probability he’s grooming you. Abusers use this line to find out if the victim is seeking a divorce. They know it’s in your best interest to keep your decisions private until you’re ready to take action. This is one reason why you should prepare for divorce. If he says these words, hear what he’s ACTUALLY saying, “I’m manipulating you to stay. Or so I can know what moves your going to make first, so I can railroad you in divorce.” We know the shock and pain of realizing he’s not actually changing, but just manipulating you into believing he’s changing – by playing up his public images and making promises he doesn’t intend to keep. ## Transcript: Emotional Abuse and Infidelity **Anne:** So it’s going to be me today on the podcast talking about emotional abuse and infidelity. I had an abuser contact me and say he liked the podcast. He has some questions, and he wanted to come on the podcast to talk to me about it. And I was like, Hmm, I’m not going to have you on the podcast. Let me see if I can address these questions and also the entitlements behind them. His first question is, if every man says I used to look at pornography, but I no longer do, is lying. What I hear is that Anne does not want any men in recovery to discuss it, which leads me to the challenge of withholding the truth, which is what I was doing and no longer want to do anymore. I don’t understand what he’s saying here. Anne does not want any men in recovery to discuss it. I don’t remember saying that. If I did, it was taken out of context. And then he goes on to say, Or why should any man even try to stop because there is no hope? And once an abuser, always forever will be an abuser, a lying pornography user. In other words, as a listener, an abuser trying to work recovery, I am receiving a mixed signal. So do I think a man should discuss it? Yes or no? What I’m concerned about is grooming with a goal. So I hope abusers do not listen to this podcast. First of all, it’s not for them. It’s to keep women safe. And I don’t want to give abusers a checklist of things to do to appear safe when they are not. ## Observing Actions Over Words **Anne:** The thing that concerns me is any talk. Whether it’s about what they used to do or what they’re working on not doing now, as grooming. I am not opposed to honesty. But what is the intent of the honesty? Is it a fake sort of vulnerable honesty to give the victim the impression that he’s honest? He told me these certain things. Not realizing that there are many other things that he’s keeping secret when he uses emotional abuse to cover up infidelity. The whole thing is problematic. I do think abusers can change, but the question for victims of abuse is. Are they safe currently? Is this grooming or is this current safe behavior? If it’s not safe behavior, then we need to distance ourselves, set boundaries, take a step back and observe from a safe distance. We cover all this in my [Clarity After Betrayal Workshop](/clarity/). We have a section about abuser questions and how to see the questions for what they really are. Because words just don’t matter so much. We need to watch actions. So the best thing for victims to do, I think, is not to ask the abuser, are you in recovery? What are you doing? But just make boundaries for her safety. And from a safe distance, observe what types of actions does he take to ensure her safety? For example, if she says, Hey, I feel unsafe. I would feel safer if you moved out of the house. So he moves out of the house. Does he shut down her bank account? That would be a sign that he’s unsafe. Or is he making sure she has enough money for food, housing, all the things she needs? Watch the actions. ## Listener’s Second Question **Anne:** Here’s the second question. He says that on one of the episodes. That a guest said, or words to the effect that men in recovery like to talk about themselves. And when they talk about their recovery, or where they are in recovery, they have not changed. And they should not talk about it. I am not saying these men should not talk about it. I say it doesn’t matter if you do. That’s all. You can talk about it all you want, but women don’t listen to their words. Watch their actions. Whether he wants to talk about recovery is up to him. I’m not saying whether he should talk about it or not. Because abusers frequently use words for grooming. I’m telling victims, don’t put too much stake in any of his words, regardless of what they say. Let’s say he says, “I hate you. I’ve always hated you. You’re unattractive. You’re the worst.” That’s also something to just dismiss, because he says that on purpose to harm you, there’s always a goal. He says, “Cannot I be excited about all I have learned and share it to try and pass the word and teach others before they end up like me, or worse?” Go ahead. What is the goal? Is it to manage your image? Is it because you’re excited? Are you genuinely changed? Take some time, observe your own behaviors. And again, this podcast isn’t for abusers. It’s for abuse victims, but that sounds dangerous to me. What are they doing that for? Were they caught? And they’re trying to tell everyone, you know, how amazing they are. He says, I also think of it as accepting Jesus and wanting to tell the world what I did. ## Emotional Abuse And Infidelity: Spiritual Abuse & Genuine Change **Anne:** Most victims have heard, don’t you believe in Jesus, don’t you believe in the atonement? It just is spiritual abuse, if an abuser believes in Jesus and accepts him, great, his behavior should change. The interesting thing about these questions is that he’s not even mentioned, doing, which is what concerns us as victims, right? That’s what we want to see. He says, “I’m so excited about learning that I was an abuser, and I want everyone to know what I’ve learned.” And then he says something interesting, “I honestly do not care if it’s brainwashing.” As if what, women are brainwashing him to think he’s an abuser? So there is this element that like, maybe it’s not true, but I’m going to do it. Because then he goes on to say, if it works and changes me to no longer abuse or rape my wife. To be completely open and honest, living authentically in all areas of my life. And being an example to my, and it goes on and on about John one and how to correctly love and treat my wife. And to me, it’s all talk. That’s what concerns me about these questions. Less talking and more doing from abusers is what victims need to see. This also concerns me, because he says after one of the podcasts that discussed planning for divorce secretly, because they do not know how the man will react. This is why women [should prepare for divorce](/how-to-prepare-for-divorce/ "should prepare for divorce") carefully. Yes, that’s what all domestic abuse advocates and experts recommend, right? You need to plan ahead when you face emotional abuse and infidelity. ## Planning For Divorce & Respecting Boundaries **Anne:** And then he says, so I asked if my wife or ex-wife, he doesn’t say if they’re in divorce proceedings or what, would let me call her. If she doesn’t want you to call her, then don’t ask her if you can call her. That’s not respectful. If she says please don’t call me, and then you say, “Can I call you?” And you think, I’m respectful because she said not to call her, and I’m just going to ask her. No, this is a very gaslighting quote, and this is one that I hear abusers say a lot that are not changed. And he says this, and I’m just going to read it. He says, “At this point, I made the hardest decision against my wants and desires. And let her know that her feeling safe should she decide to divorce me is important to me.” “And I did not want her worried about how I would react.” Basically, he wants to say, look, I want to find out if she wants to divorce me. I’m afraid she’s going to surprise me, so I’m going to try to intervene here and manipulate her into telling me when she probably shouldn’t be telling me, whether or not [couples should stay together after infidelity](/should-couples-stay-together-after-infidelity/ "couples should stay together after infidelity"). I’m worried this guy is listening to my podcast to weaponize it against his wife or soon to be ex-wife. That’s my main concern, that this guy’s weaponizing it. And if he’s still listening, please stop. Don’t listen to my podcast anymore. If you have changed, stop listening to the podcast to weaponize and bear up your reputation. It’s scary. ## Manipulation & Weaponizing Information **Anne:** Then on his own abuse, he says, it breaks my heart that men continue to abuse as I had done, but in very nasty ways. And goes on to say a bunch of stuff that I’m thinking he does. The reason why I did not want him to come on the podcast. Is because I’m worried he would use the podcast. And try to act like he’s so changed, through his words, to manipulate his wife into staying with him. When she does not want to, to continue his emotional abuse. Because I’m not able to observe his actions or talk to his wife or ex-wife. These types of messages I get are problematic. So I just wanted to share with you that those are some of the things I receive from abusers. And I don’t want to give them air time to further manipulate. Here’s another one from a wife whose husband was totally into Betrayal Trauma Recovery saying he was, and he was like, hey, I’m completely into BTR. It’s amazing, I’ve listened to it. it’s changed me. And then his wife said, be forewarned. My husband or ex, I’m not sure, has gone completely off the rails. He’s now actively calling men he recommended Betrayal Trauma Recovery to. And telling them how incredibly horrible and damaging it is. It’s interesting because he was trying to groom his wife and be like, I listen to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. It’s amazing. And he had a goal in mind. When that goal did not work, I don’t know exactly what the goal was. But like maybe to move back in or maybe for his wife to talk to him again when it didn’t work. ## Emotional Abuse And Infidelity: Abusers’ Control Tactics **Anne:** Instead of staying the course and saying, okay, yeah, Betrayal Trauma Recovery is fine, I’m sad. She didn’t want to let me back in, but that’s her prerogative. He decided then to be like, nevermind, BTR is bad. And call everyone and say, you know, that thing I told everyone was amazing. It’s actually bad. Who knows if he actually did that? That’s another question I had. He says he called everyone and told them how Betrayal Trauma Recovery is great. But my guess is he called one or two people. And now he’s calling them back and telling them it’s bad. Apparently, Betrayal Trauma Recovery teaches men that they just have to lie down and take any and all abuse from their crazy wives simply because they made a little mistake. This is a very classic abuser move that they might a [husband might be grooming](https://www.btr.org/is-my-husband-grooming-me/ "husband grooms") his wife. for a minute to see if they can get back in the house or have the goal they want. And then they don’t want to give up their entitlements. They don’t want to give up their exploitative privilege at this point. So once they’re faced with what they would have to give up to stop abusing, wait a minute. I can’t even call her to ask if she wants to talk to me. Even though she’s already told me she doesn’t want to talk to me. Wait a minute. I can’t move back in the house? Wait a minute. I’m not going to talk to her every day to manipulate her and convince her of my point of view. The wife gets concerned. So she reached out and said, I have no idea if he’d be bold enough to make a public statement against Betrayal Trauma Recovery. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## Understanding Abusers’ Perspective **Anne:** But just so you know, he’s actively trying to turn men against you. And now he’s saying everything is the wife’s fault, because these men just have to lie down and we complain they’re not flat enough. Abusers want control. So they want power over. When things are equal, when the truth is laid bare. You observe their actions, and you are on equal ground, that feels like oppression to them. That feels like someone has power over them. Because to feel equal from their perspective, and this is explained well in the book *The Verbally Abusive Relationship* by Patricia Evans. To feel equal for an abuser, he must feel over. If he is actually equal, like the truth is out, you see him for what he is, you’re both living in reality. He feels abused. He feels oppressed. That does not feel like equality to him. Then abusers say things like, “I’ve given up everything, and it’s not good enough, and now I’m the one being abused.” Especially if they have [covert narcissist traits](/covert-narcissist-traits/). That’s just not the case. They’re just not able to live in that space where they don’t have power over. They feel uncomfortable and oppressed. The wife, the one warning me about him, she said. When he said this, I laughed out loud. His brain is twisted right now. It’s insane. He thinks he’s lying so flat, but in reality, he’s not. He still hasn’t given his entitlements up. He’s still not telling the truth. He’s still gaslighting and lying, which is emotional abuse all to hide and excuse his infidelity. ## Final Thoughts On Grooming & True Change **Anne:** The reason I’m bringing this up is that all abusers ask questions for a purpose. And usually it’s to groom or get information to weaponize. We cover all this in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. We just observe apathetically from a safe distance, because they want to control the narrative. And they can’t control the narrative if they can’t manipulate us with their words. You can observe from their behavior everything you need to know. That is the point of this episode. Even if they seem like they’re doing great, and they might be, we don’t know. That’s the problem with abuse, is that grooming is part of that cycle, and they’ve used it before. We are incapable of deciphering grooming from true change at the beginning of recovering from abuse. It takes time. It takes time for a victim to escape the abuser’s realm of abuse manipulation. And step into reality, become strong and grounded to tell. There’s no short-term way to know if what he is saying is grooming or true change. Because any abuser can groom with their words, but they can also act like it for a certain amount of time. And then when they feel like they’re in control, when they feel like they have their goal. Then you’ll see the behavior shift back to the obvious abuse from all the kindness, the questions, the nice understanding behavior is abuse if it has a goal, if the goal is power over. ## Emotional Abuse And Infidelity Resources & Your Safety **Anne:** Moral of the story here with this episode, get more education about grooming emotional abuse and infidelity. Enroll in [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) with that link. And also read the book, [The Verbally Abusive Relationship](https://www.btr.org/books/) by Patricia Evans. You can find it on our website. Also a list of [all of the curated books that we recommend](https://www.btr.org/books/) at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. My only goal is your safety. That’s it. I care about women and victims. And I might not know you specifically, but I know what you’re going through. My heart goes out to you, and I want you to know that we care about you as an individual. We care that you’re safe. And that you feel safe in your home. We care that you’re not emotionally and psychologically abused. We love you. And I’m praying for every woman in this situation every day **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [The Best Support Groups for Survivors of Emotional Abuse](https://www.btr.org/support-groups-for-survivors-of-emotional-abuse/) **Published:** November 26, 2024 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Women who've experienced their husband's emotional abuse share their stories. Find out how BTR helped them. **Content:** One of the most important things support groups for survivors of emotional abuse do, is offer women a safe place to process what has happened to them in a community of women who understand and can validate their experiences. If you’re wondering if you’re experiencing emotional abuse, take my free [emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/) here. ## HOW SUPPORT GROUPS for Emotional Abuse SurvivorS HELP VICTIMS We hear from so many women who discover BTR but are reluctant to sign up for Group Sessions or take the Clarity After Betrayal Workshop at first. They’ve been taught that the right place to get help is from a therapist or clergy member, so they’re understandably hesitant to trust support that looks different from what they expected. Then, months or sometimes years later, they come back to BTR and tell us, “This is what I needed first.” With that in mind, here are the three most important things I hear from women who were helped by our Group Sessions. ### **1. Survivors NEED SUPPORT WHERE THERE ARE NO CONFLICTS OF INTEREST** You need a support group that’s entirely on your side, and there’s no conflicts of interest. Women who are emotionally abused are married to men who are really good at lying in manipulation, really good at this good guy image. So if they’re going to couple therapy or getting help from people who know their husband, then he’s able to manipulate them too. In our community, we don’t have that conflict of interest. Our group sessions provide crucial connection and community with zero victim blaming. ### 2. **BTR Helps Survivors Recognize and Understand Abuse Patterns** In our group sessions, women say they were able to recognize emotional abuse quicker than any other resource. And in fact, there have even been women who’ve said, “It helped me recognize my husband was NOT abusive quicker than any other resource.” Every day women tell me that they tried therapy for years and all the advice on the internet, and it never gave them the clarity that they found in our group sessions. ### 3. HEARING **Survivor Stories Offers Validation** AND HOPE Many of the women who come to BTR say they felt hopeless in this constant cycle of confusion, and then with therapy or other groups, they were given the impression that part of it was their fault. As they take that advice from these other types of groups, things seemed to get better for a little while, but then they realized that it wasn’t, and sometimes it was even a lot worse. So hearing stories of women who have been through this exact same cycle, women are like, “Oh, it wasn’t me. I was getting the wrong information.” And then when they hear the tools that we have to offer that are completely different than anything they’ve ever heard before, they start making progress for the first time. ## TranscripT: STORIES FROM SUPPORT GROUPS for SURVIVORS OF EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Anne:** Today’s episode is a montage of stories from emotional abuse survivors. I’m super humbled as I’ve listen to these stories. I honor all the women searching for answers. Who are genuinely trying to save their families. Not knowing what to do and getting harmful information from therapists, internet articles or clergy. Including resources that haven’t helped them understand the abuse. I want to thank everyone for listening. Above all I hope that BTR is helpful. The thought of any woman being in an abusive situation and not understanding what it is, is heartbreaking to me. Also, a thank you to all of you who have shared our material on social media or shared it with friends. In an effort to educate more women. So with that, here are their stories. ### **Emotional Abuse Survivor Story #1** I have been in therapy for 12 years. Only now have I felt that I have the expert care and clarity that I have been searching for. You and this whole group are what I call, proactive. Where before it was just wishy washy, hit or miss, psycho-babble type of therapy. This group is exactly what women need, [to recover from betrayal trauma](https://www.btr.org/recover-from-betrayal-trauma/ "to recover from betrayal trauma"), and I cannot thank you enough. ![the Reality of Surviving Emotional Abuse from Survivors Who Lived Through It](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/14-Emotional-Abuse-Stories-from-Survivors.jpg "Emotional Abuse Stories from Survivors")### **Emotional Abuse Survivor Story #**2 This group is new to me. I have been in not a good place for about three years. This is the first time that I have had other people share their stories. Where I felt so validated. I could totally relate. This isn’t just me. I’m not going crazy. I can stand my ground and create boundaries to keep myself safe. To keep my kids safe. I have multiple daily options to check in, check out, share, not share, listen. The isolation that I felt before is starting to dissipate. ### **Emotional Abuse Survivor Story #**3 I arrived at BTR in full blown trauma. Never having known what he was doing for years, and prior to we were married. Thank God that this is the place that I found. Because there was love and nurturing and education. All of the coaches are friends to walk with me and support me and I will forever be grateful. ### **Emotional Abuse Survivor Story #**4 I had been in therapy for a while, years, and at least a year with Chuck before I found [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/). There were no breakthroughs or anything. It was just the same cycle. Now that I know what it is, it was the same cycle of abuse. Happening over and over and over again with no real solution. When I found BTR, I I honestly was trying to find reasons in my head as to why the group wouldn’t be good for me. Because I knew it was gonna change everything about my life. It did because I joined the group right before I initially separated from Chuck. So having BTR during that time of separation got me through. And then helped me make the decision to separate permanently and just not want to be with him anymore. I wouldn’t be here and be growing the way that I am without BTR. ### **Emotional Abuse Survivor Story #**5 [Betrayal Trauma Support Group](https://www.btr.org/betrayal-trauma-support-group/) has been very important for me through this journey. I can just very succinctly say that it has saved my life. Chiefly I would say just simply that. Without BTR I wouldn’t be here. ### **Emotional Abuse Survivor Story #**6 For years we’d have fights. I would go to the internet to find out how I could be better. So that we could stop having fights, I would always search. And article after article was never right. I just knew. And finally one day I stumbled upon the BTR podcast and I don’t really like listening to them. I like to read them so I’m thankful for the transcript. I finally knew that what I was reading was right. When I had a name for what was going on in my marriage. I could finally start to work to fix it and fixing it has meant not what I thought it would. It has saved my life too. So without BTR, I wouldn’t have a name for what I experienced and I wouldn’t have the healing. ### **Emotional Abuse Survivor Story #**7 I didn’t ever think that I would be In the position that I’m in, I was with my ex fiance from the age of 13 for 20 years. He was living a double life. I found [BTR](https://www.btr.org/) when I was staying in hotels. I had nowhere else to go and I booked a one on one with a coach. And I haven’t looked back. I have learned so much every single day that I hop on group. I see women that I am inspired by and women who are ahead of me in the journey. Women who are following me on the journey. We’re all on different journeys, but somehow the connection that we have and the love that we share is really real. So thank you so much. I don’t know what I would have done without BTR for the last 12 months. ### **Emotional Abuse Survivor Story #**8 I found BTR to be really helpful. In fact [Betrayal Trauma Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/) are really helpful at connecting with other people going through this. Not feeling alone. Recognizing that there are lots of actually super capable, strong, determined, people experiencing abuse at different stages along the way. I found the Group Sessions to be really helpful. Also he podcast is really nice just to listen to and understand broader patterns and trends. I wish people didn’t have to find this on their own, I’m really glad BTR exists. ### **Emotional Abuse Survivor Story #**9 Discovery was in 2011, of addiction. There’s just no support out there for women, other than the groups that are available in that realm. And my therapist of many years never mentioned the word abuse. I felt like I was duped, I started attending [BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/). I learned so much from the coaches, I was terrified with a learning disability. And think I could never do this. I could never, ever, ever be free from a covert narcissist. As I’m going through all this, the post separation abuse was just heinous. And since then, with the help of BTR through this process and as I am safe. In my new place, I’m now starting to process it even more. Because I had been so busy going through all the process of divorce and everything else. And due to all the coaches and the love and support. They have allowed me to have such great strength. I’m realizing I am worth it. I am enough. BTR is a lifesaver and I thank you from the bottom of my heart. You helped save my life and I am now free and I am now safe. ### **Emotional Abuse Survivor Story #**10 I feel like attending [BTR.ORG Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/) helped me create some routine in my life. Additionally something I can do every single day. It has just created some routine and structure and support in a life that I currently have. Which is very chaotic and unpredictable and challenging. And I genuinely feel like I like meeting with all the coaches because they have different perspectives. Each coach, has a different vibe. That’s really helpful. That’s been great. I’ve only been doing this a couple months, but I’m really happy. I don’t think I’m going to stop anytime soon. It’s a really beautiful community of women who’ve been doing it for a long time. It’s really cool to see those connections and to be building them. ### **Emotional Abuse Survivor Story #**11 I’ve been through this for over 30 years of dealing with this in my life. Always asking, “[How do I know if it’s abuse](/how-do-i-know-if-its-abuse/)?”I’ve been in BTR for five months. My life has changed more in the last five months than all of those years that I went through. I so appreciate all of the coaches just the clarity has helped me through a lot of [individual sessions](https://www.btr.org/individual/), [group sessions.](https://www.btr.org/group/) I really appreciate that everyone has something different. Similarly all the shares help you understand other ways to do self care and stay safe. I really appreciate BTR. I can’t say enough about it. It’s changed my life. ### Emotional Abuse **Survivor Story #**12 [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/) was literally an answer to prayer for me. After disclosure, I really didn’t know what to think about my situation. After almost 30 years being with my husband, I felt like I was brainwashed. Also I didn’t know what to do. I prayed and I did a Google search and I found the podcast and it literally changed my life. After a year, I feel so much more empowered and connected and validated. I have so much clarity on the trauma that I had been going through. Everything just started to make sense. I’m a completely different person than I was a year ago. I just love this group. ### Emotional Abuse **Survivor Story #**13 BTR Group Sessions and Individual Sessions. They have all been an amazing space for me to be able to find safety, encouragement, and support. BTR has helped me and continues to help me as I’m still in this process. To be reminded that I’m not crazy and that I can watch for the signs. I can check in with myself and check in with my body, I know the [symptoms of betrayal trauma](https://www.btr.org/26-symptoms-of-betrayal-trauma/ "symptoms of betrayal trauma"). I’m grateful to have this community. It’s been really important to help me be able to recover. And I look forward to recovering more. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ### Emotional abuse **Survivor Story #**14 Well, I found BTR.ORG through Instagram. Anne would post reels and I realized they were about me. They helped me so much. So I started attending BTR Group Sessions. It was like finally having the place where everything in my life that didn’t make sense made sense. Because there could be words put to it. I wasn’t alone and to be able to literally put the voices from group in my, in my ears. And be able to hear that as things are happening in my life. It’s just been life changing. It’s been a great support. Setting Boundaries When You Are An Emotional Abuse Survivor Anne created [The BTR.ORG Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/ "The Living Free Workshop") for emotional abuse survivors to understand and implement boundaries, check it out today. ### Bonus Story I hadn’t found any groups that I felt comfortable going to, just having such a hard time finding a counselor, I felt like they were listening, but maybe didn’t really get it. And I have friends and family that know that I’m separated and they know that I’m hurting, but still, again, they don’t know the details or maybe how to listen with understanding. And I just want to do my best to help other ladies find BTR , more quickly than I did. Being around all these women, at BTR even if they hadn’t experienced the same thing, they knew how to react appropriately and the right things to say. It felt so good just to be able to talk and not worry about filtering what I was saying or trying to remember what I had already told them, or is this person safe or not? Or when am I going to run into them at the grocery store? Or do they know my husband? I was able to share my story and not feel judged. It was a really great **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [7 Truths About Emotional Abuse You Need To Know](https://www.btr.org/7-powerful-truths-about-emotional-abuse/) **Published:** September 24, 2024 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Myths about emotional abuse enable abusers to keep abusing victims. 7 Powerful Truths About Emotional Abuse help victims find safety. **Content:** Abusers are enabled, as these myths are embedded into the population: therapists, clergy, friends, family, and neighbors, and random people on the internet, like a recent [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast ](https://www.btr.org/group/)reviewer who left a comment riddled with the **7 Toxic Myths about Emotional Abuse.** If you need support from coaches who really understand abuse, check out our [Daily Group Session Schedule](https://www.btr.org/group/). ![How to Tell the Truth About Emotional Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/the-truth-about-emotional-abuse.webp "the Truth About Emotional Abuse")## 7 Toxic Myths About Emotional Abuse 1. Women with strong opinions, religious views, and world views should not be taken seriously. 2. Emotional abuse advocates usually try to find someone to listen to their own story, and aren’t actually helping victims. 3. If it doesn’t include physical violence, it’s not abuse. 4. If it only happens once, or occasionally, it’s not abuse. 5. A man can *harm* his partner, and it’s not technically abuse. 6. Pornography use isn’t abuse. 7. Betrayal isn’t abuse. These myths are dangerous: they enable abusers to keep abusing and they encourage victims to stay in abusive situations. ![Truth That Manipulation is Emotional Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/the-truth-that-manipulation-is-abuse.webp "the Truth That Manipulation is Abuse")## 7 Powerful Truths About Emotional Abuse 1. All women deserve a voice, especially victims of emotional abuse. As women share their stories, they can begin the journey to healing. Furthermore, strong world views, opinions and perspectives are absolutely necessary for women to begin healing. **In an abusive situation, it is black and white: there is an abuser and a victim. There is the truth and there are lies. It does not take “two to tango,” and there are not “two sides” to the story of abuse.** 2. The most powerful advocates for victims of abuse, are survivors of abuse! As women courageously tell their stories to other victims, powerful communities filled with hope, healing, and validation are created. 3. Physical battery is absolutely abusive, but there are many other forms of abuse that are equally destructive to another human being. Emotional abuse, psychological abuse, coercion, and betrayal are all forms of abuse that are just as serious as physical violence. 4. When a man harms a woman, *even once*, it is abuse. Pure and simple. The phrase “isolated incident” has enabled too many abusers and has put too many women in mortal danger. 5. Harm is another word for abuse. If someone is harming you, they are abusing you. 6. Pornography is abuse: it’s abusive to partners, it’s abusive to children, it’s abusive to the women and children used in the industry. 7. Betrayal is an excruciating form of emotional abuse. ![Truths About Emotional Abuse You Need to Know](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Truths-About-Emotional-Abuse-You-Need-To-Know.webp "Truths About Emotional Abuse You Need to Know")## Transcript: 7 Truths About Emotional Abuse **Anne:** Today, I’m going to talk about seven toxic myths about emotional abuse. ## What Can Be Learned From A Bad Review? And this man’s review illustrates every one of these toxic myths. It’s the perfect example of what every victim is accused of when she’s trying to get to safety. It’s a perfect example of all the reasons she can’t get help, of all the reasons people dismiss her concerns. There are so many [emotional abuse survivor stories](https://www.btr.org/support-groups-for-survivors-of-emotional-abuse/ "emotional abuse survivor stories") and his review enlightens their struggles. So here is his review. He says, “To be fair, there are some nuggets of truth in this podcast. But there are still disproportionate numbers of problematic things going on with it. First of all, there seems to be a clear agenda with this podcast.” This statement makes me laugh, because it’s obvious there’s a clear agenda. He’s saying that like it’s a bad thing that I have a clear agenda. Of course, there’s a clear agenda. I say every week that men who use explicit content and commit adultery lie, manipulate, and psychologically abuse their wives. Adultery, lying manipulation, gas-lighting are abusive to your wife. So, yes, you hit the nail on the head. ![An Emotional abuser Doesn't Want You To Trust Yourself - Here's Why](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/oK159VgBNyo/maxresdefault.jpg) ## Religious Overtones and Anti-Porn Sentiment Then he says, “It has lots of religious overtones and strong anti-pornography sentiment.” So here, he says if you’re religious, you should be dismissed. Because if you’re religious, then your opinions don’t matter apparently. And then secondly, if you oppose pornography, then you should be discounted. Why? I don’t know. On the betrayal trauma recovery team, we have agnostics, Catholics, Evangelicals, women from different faiths. We are interfaith and inner paradigm here. And all the women on the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Team are anti pornography because it is abusive. So, if he says we shouldn’t be listened to because we think it is abusive. He’s entitled to his opinion. We just disagree. So sir, religious people can be logical, and they can have something important to say. Also, people opposed to it can be decent logical people. But people who don’t want to see it as abusive will use any reason they can to discount people opposed to it. ![What Are the Truths About Healing from Emotional Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/truths-about-healing-from-emotional-abuse.webp "Truths About Healing from Emotional Abuse")## Validating Personal Experiences **Anne:** Then he says, “It comes across as the host uses the podcast to validate her own experiences and values”. Yes. Totally. And all of the other women’s experiences too, because we all share the same story. My name Anne Blythe is from Anne of Green Gables. It’s symbolic of the universal story. That all of us who have experienced this type of abuse share. I podcast and share my personal story as a spokesperson for all of us and an archetype for all of us. Then I invite you to share your stories, and they all sound so similar. This podcast gives victims a voice, because we’ve all been silenced. Men like this, institutions and therapists, and all kinds of people, have tried to silence us. ## Effective Advocacy: A Misunderstanding Then he says, “This is not what effective advocacy looks like.” But he doesn’t suggest what effective advocacy for abuse victims should look like. Also, how would he know? Is he an abuse victim? According to him, a good advocate can’t have a clear agenda. They can’t speak from their own personal experience, they can’t be religious. They can’t hate it. And they can’t highlight other women’s stories and educate women about emotional and psychological abuse or coercion through stories. I think this is an abuser who doesn’t want any woman to talk. Or any abuse victim to share their story? ![](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/truths-about-emotional-abuse.webp "Truths About Emotional Abuse")Or would he like us to advocate like the therapists do or the clergy where they’re like? Maybe the abusers should come on and share his side of the story. Like no. No. He says, “This podcast is about promoting a specific perspective.” Absolutely. This is about the specific perspective of the victim. I’m not interested in hearing from the abuser, if that’s what you mean, is that what he means? Who wants to hear from the abuser? ## The Definition of Abuse Then he says, “The host is not using definitions of abuse universally accepted by professionals in the field.” That’s just not true. All domestic abuse advocates universally accept that manipulation and lying are psychological abuse, gas-lighting is psychological abuse. This is just industry standard abuse education. Then he says, “Not all dysfunction and harm is abuse”. And while it’s true that not all dysfunction is abuse. If someone consistently harms someone all the time. What would he call it? Because that’s maybe what the therapists are trying to say too, that, oh, he doesn’t do it on purpose. But if someone does something harmful over and over. What else would we call it? Would we just say, well, your husband is consistently harmful, but he’s a good guy? There’s a word for it. It’s called the abuse. ![How Can I Learn the Truth About Emotional Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/learn-truth-about-emotional-abuse-1024x1024.png "Learn Truth About Emotional Abuse")Then he says, “Harm is still harm and it’s not okay. But abuse is one partner systematically using tactics to gain and maintain control over the other partner”. Well, he nailed it there. That is the definition of abuse. But gas lighting is doing that manipulation, lying, and betrayal. They’re trying to keep the truth from their wife. So they can continue to cheat on her. That’s exactly what we’re talking about. He has the correct definition for abuse, using tactics to gain and maintain power and control, but then he’s denying that manipulation, gas-lighting, lying, deceit, are abusive. That makes no sense. Then I love the next thing he says. ## The Complexity of Abuse He says, “It’s not about isolated incidents of harm or even ongoing issues of betrayal,” so he’s saying abuse can’t be isolated. Apparently, and it can’t be ongoing. All abuse is one of those two things. Then he says, “not all explicit content use is abuse”. He has a right to his opinion. I just 100% disagree with it. All of it is abusive, and then he says, “It’s dangerous to conflate the two.” Which I just flat out disagree with him. I think all of this material is evidence or documentation of someone being coerced. They might be being coerced with money. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) Then he says, “Being betrayed is not necessarily a systematic attempt to dominate the other partner.” Uh, well, then what is it? To discount the other partner. To undermine the partner. Betrayal Trauma Recovery, is [the best betrayal trauma resource](https://www.btr.org/betrayal-trauma-resources/ "the best betrayal trauma resource") because we see systematic lies, and systematic gas lighting is an absolute systematic attempt to dismiss her as a human being, to dismiss her concerns. To dismiss her feelings, to dismiss her values, to dismiss her needs, her emotional needs and her psychological needs. Then he writes, “There are many instances through this podcast where it’s suggested victims should try to work it out or give their spouse a chance”. Um, I don’t know if I’ve ever said that. ## Safety Over Divorce **Anne:** All I’ve ever talked about and advocated for is safety. Safety safety, safety, emotional safety, psychological safety. I think the thing bothering this guy is that I’m not going to tell victims of abuse what that means for them. I always say safety should be the top priority. Does that mean divorce? Maybe it doesn’t mean separation, maybe. I’m not about to tell you what it means. This man apparently thinks he knows what safety means for abuse victims. Not just this guy, but many people accuse me of two completely different things, which is like pro divorce or anti man, or anti-family. Then also telling people that what I talk about isn’t abuse. And I’m like, number one, I’m not pro divorce or anti man. Number two, it is abuse. So let’s talk about this dichotomy, that men, therapists, and other people are so confused about. So pro-safety just means that I want women to be emotionally, psychologically, physically, spiritually safe. That’s it. I never encourage women to stay in an abusive situation. ## Divorce Doesn’t Solve The Abuse But what people who’ve never been through this don’t understand is that divorce does not solve the abuse. My ex post divorce abused me for eight years. We help women who are still being abused. Post-divorce at BTR every day. So whether a woman is married or divorced, she could still be abused. So that’s why safety must be the goal. Not necessarily divorce. Could it include divorce, or should it yes, maybe, or maybe not like? Who am I to say? I just want her safe. That’s it. So he says, “I understand the sentiment, but if it truly is an abusive relationship, encouraging a victim to stay as dangerous.” I’m encouraging her to get to safety. The other problem with his solution is like, okay, if it’s abuse, get divorced. Which is what every domestic violence shelter will tell you. Then they can’t help you once you’re divorced and still being abused. So safety isn’t the top priority in these cases. ## Empowering Victims to Make Decisions **Anne:** The other issue is the most victims who are being abused. They don’t know that they’re being abused. And so they’re not at the point where they can like, think about their emotional safety yet, because maybe she goes to a therapist, probably like this guy. He tells her this is not abuse. Then she doesn’t necessarily realize she’s not emotionally safe. It takes a while to figure out. So to try and tell a woman like the second, you know, it’s abuse, get divorced. Doesn’t make sense, because it takes a while to figure it out. Women have to try a few things. They have to go through the process. I’ve never met any woman in the world who immediately is like, he’s abusive. Usually, they try to have a conversation with them. They go to therapy, they do a bunch of things to figure out if he’s abusive, and that process takes time. Clearly, he has not been through this, or he would understand that. At BTR, I want to give victims space to make the right decision for themselves, whatever that is. I also want to educate them about what abuse is and what safety is. ## I’m Also A Trained Domestic Violence Advocate He says one more thing. “As a trained domestic violence advocate and community educator, I feel the need to point out some of these problematic things.” I’m also a trained domestic violence advocate and a community educator. So. Who wins you or me? Like. Does he not know that I’m also a trained domestic violence advocate and a community educator. Apparently he doesn’t know this. So if that’s. His criteria, then he should be like, oh, I didn’t know that she was a trained domestic violence advocate. Now that I know that. I guess everything she’s saying is okay. Or now that I know she’s a community educator. He’s dismissing all of us victims. He’s dismissing me. For all the reasons he just said, he’s dismissing you. He’s dismissing all our experience. It’s an example of those seven toxic myths about emotional abuse that I started with. And you might get these from clergy therapists, professionals, your abuser, you’ve probably heard them already. And that’s why I started Betrayal Trauma Recovery, and as Anne Blythe, I’m a spokesperson for you. I take the heat for this, because I get messages like this all the time. I appreciate your prayers and support, because this type of confrontation is something I regularly experience [online through emails or people accusing me of things](https://www.btr.org/is-online-infidelity-cheating/) that aren’t true. Obviously, like this guy who is contradicting himself throughout his review. It’s common for people who haven’t been through it not to understand how complex the situation is for victims. They’re trying to simplify it and not give victims the power to make choices that are right for her. So safety, safety safety here at BTR. Okay. ## Seven Powerful Truths About Emotional Abuse **Anne:** And now to the seven powerful truths about emotional abuse. Let’s start with ## \#1 Truth About Emotional Abuse Any time a man knowingly compromises his wife’s emotional safety, or psychological safety, and harms her emotionally, physically, spiritually, or psychologically, he is abusing her. ## \#2 Truth About Emotional Abuse All women deserve a voice, especially victims of emotional abuse. As women share their stories, they can begin the journey to healing. Strong opinions and perspectives are absolutely necessary for women to begin healing. In an abusive situation, there is an abuser and a victim. There is truth and lies. So we don’t need to hear two sides of this story. Just hearing the victim story is enough. ## \#3 Truth About Emotional Abuse The most powerful advocates for victims of abuse are survivors of abuse. As women courageously tell their stories to other victims, we build powerful communities, filled with hope, healing and validation, and our community here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery is incredible. ## \#4 Truth About Emotional Abuse Physical battery is absolutely abusive, but there are many other forms of abuse that are equally destructive to another human being. Emotional abuse, psychological abuse, coercion and betrayal are all forms of abuse that are just as serious as physical violence. And for myself, I’ve experienced both, and I would say the emotional and psychological abuse were much more difficult to heal from. ## \#5 Truth About Emotional Abuse When a man harms a woman, even once. In an effort to overpower her or gain control. It’s abuse. Pure and simple. The phrase, isolated incident, has enabled many abusers to put many women in danger, emotional danger, psychological danger, but also physical danger. An isolated incident of murder. It’s all it takes. But also an isolated incident of soliciting a prostitute. He would like you to think it’s an isolated incident, but the likelihood of his use, his betrayal, or his lies being an isolated incident is actually quite low. ## \#6 Truth About Emotional Abuse Harm is another word for abuse. If someone is continually harming you, that is abuse. ## \#7 Truth About Emotional Abuse This is abuse. It’s abusive to the women in the content, it’s also abusive. To a marriage, it’s abusive to a family. It’s abusive to children. It’s abusive to everyone, betrayal is also a form of abuse. ## Support and Community For Emotional Abuse Victims Thank you to this man who helped me teach you the seven toxic myths about emotional abuse and seven powerful truths about emotional abuse. This guy really exposed what it feels like to be attacked when you start talking about abuse, and all of you have experienced this from somebody. So you know exactly what it’s like, and I appreciate your support. I appreciate all of you who have given this podcast a positive five star review and an explanation of why this podcast works for you. It makes a huge difference. to drown out. The reviews from men or the reviews from abusers saying this podcast is bad because we don’t get the perspective of the abuser. It makes a huge difference to have your support, and I appreciate it. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you, BTR.ORG is an incredible community where victims come together and can be emotionally safe and validated. So many women out there pray to know what’s going on. They are searching for help. Another place where you can help by giving a five-star review with your explanation is on Amazon. If you’ve purchased [Trauma Mama Husband Drama](https://www.amazon.com/Trauma-Husband-Drama-Blythe-M-Ed/dp/1728880351/ref=sr_1_1?crid=113S4T2DEFAE7&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.L7oTSz7a_YN4H-dFjf7r20r_FflDa89fiEQ5XV9aFaz5VzDGsT1BOlVqY2rkv0pZtZihC-rdan0-805NF-RBoXfDfqYOwTSWQ09bObI2Hr0yZM4YENGzRR6OVvuSy-xcCyS9fuGGm3SzMbwNUKX7qAnpUbrV8c-ChewTQW6yrfcMpx6p6X2jy0lGiNfQMheXueOEg3PaA10GimuhcmfUpIRb9ZtMxORis6SJwt7JEaTlqNWh57ziGVtYwbrvpRaF.6nkDl9EbDhK6b8POJuHq4erTtxxLNZx2ajJhyxlzmK8&dib_tag=se&keywords=trauma+mama+husband+drama&qid=1724194485&sprefix=trauma+mama+hu%2Caps%2C126&sr=8-1 "Trauma Mama Husband Drama"), which is my picture book for adults. So reviewing this podcast, reviewing Trauma Mama, sharing this information could be an answer. to someone’s prayer. I hear so many victims talk about how they couldn’t figure out what was going on and they prayed. And then they found this podcast. So, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your support. No matter what your paradigm is, no matter where you come from. All of us can stand up and advocate for abuse victims. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Distribution Of Intimate Images Without Consent With Laila Mickelwait](https://www.btr.org/distribution-of-intimate-images-without-consent-federal/) **Published:** April 4, 2023 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Laila Mickelwait exposes exploitative websites for what they are - a cesspool of assault proof. Learn how to help take it down. **Content:** It’s important for women to understand that under Federal Law, the distribution of intimate images without consent is illegal. If it’s happened to you, here’s what you need to know. When Laila Mickelwait, founder and CEO of the [Justice Defense Fund](https://justicedefensefund.org), began questioning the legality of P\_\_\_\_b’s content. She quickly learned that P\_\_\_\_b is full of videos that document the abuse of women. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we take the firm stance that pornography is abusive to everyone involved. P\_\_\_\_b is a gateway, catalyst, and enabler to some of the most graphic, insidious, and violent abuse on the internet. If your husband uses exploitative material you’re likely experiencing his emotional abuse. To discover if he’s using any of the 19 types of emotional abuse, take our[ free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ## Here’s How P\_\_\_\_b Distributes Intimate Images Without Consent P\_\_\_\_b and other pornography sites, hosts videos of: - Rape - Violence - Coercion - Underage vicims - Unconscious victims P\_\_\_\_b harms victims every day by allowing abusers to post filmed abuse. Protecting women from abuse is our goal. You can help today. [Sign the petition here](https://traffickinghubpetition.com) and let your voice be heard. P\_\_\_\_b has ruined too many lives – it’s time to hold this industry accountable. To learn more listen to the [FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast](https://www.btr.org/podcast/). ## Transcript: Distribution of Intimate Images Without Consent **Anne:** Laila Mickelwait is the founder and CEO of the Justice Defense Fund and the founder of the global trafficking hub movement supported by millions around the world. She has been combating the injustice of sex trafficking for over a decade and is a leading expert in the field. We are talking about distribution of intimate images without consent. Welcome Laila. **Laila:** Thanks for having me. **Anne:** Our audience is well aware of the harms of exploitative material on families. And also how it intersects with trafficking. Let’s talk about the work you are doing to bring justice to survivors of trafficking and child sex abuse. **Laila:** You know, I’ve been doing this work for over 15 years. I don’t have a dramatic story of how I focused on this area. I grew up in a home where my father focused on human rights issues. He grew up in the Middle East in the midst of war. And he always instilled in us this sense of awareness about human rights issues and justice issues throughout our lives. And I came back around to that when I tried to decide what direction I wanted to pursue in my studies and my career path. I realized I wanted to [invest myself ](/self-care-books-for-women/)in something that would benefit me, and focus on alleviating human rights abuses. And came across the issue of trafficking around that time. Especially women and children stricken by the severity of the harm. And so that’s how I ended up focusing down that path. ## Discovering Online Exploitation **Laila:** As time went on. One thing I realized was that trafficking and these abuses were not only going on in brothels in Cambodia, the United States, streets and back alleys, and prostitution, but also online. And through the industry, I realized there is a big industry, a big tech industry and a big tobacco industry. And that, I began to investigate and research over the last nine years. The intersection between trafficking, child sexual abuse material, all forms of image-based sexual abuse, and the big industry. I spent significant time looking into the harm it does to children. They’re exposed to these kinds of sites. You know, at very young ages these days. As of December, P\_\_\_\_b was the largest and most popular exploitative material site in the world. In 2020, they reported 47 billion visits to the site that year. 130 million visits per day in 2019. They had 6. 8 million videos uploaded to that one site. It would take you 169 years to watch the content uploaded to P\_\_\_\_b in just one year. I was investigating that site because I was questioning. There were so many videos. Women in these homemade videos appeared victims of assault. They appeared to be in pain and protesting and not consenting to what was going on. So that is distribution of intimate images without consent. And also homemade videos of girls that appeared to be underage teens and tweens. And I’m the antidote. How are they vetting these videos? And why is everybody in the world just assuming that because it’s on P\_\_\_\_b, it’s legal. One night, my baby awakened me. And as I put him back to bed, I pondered these questions. They haunted me. ## Personal Investigation & Findings **Laila:** And I had an idea. I said, I’m going to try this test upload for myself. And so I took out my laptop and tried the upload process. I found out what millions of people would have already known. But nobody sounded the alarm about before. And that all that it takes to upload content onto the world’s most popular site was an email address. No ID to prove that you’re of age. No consent form to show you weren’t assaulted or trafficked. So that is distribution of intimate images without consent. And that was the moment where everything came to a head. And where the Trafficking Hub was born and the movement began. **Anne:** At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we consider all pornography as abuse. So for example, if someone says, well, Anne, a 12 year old boy who views it, is not an abuser. I would say, yeah, you’re right, but you know what has happened to him? It has abused him. SIt’s always an abuse issue in one form or another. And the fact that people upload child sexual abuse material on P\_\_\_\_b and profit from it is absolutely atrocious. So you use the term child sexual abuse material, which more and more people fighting use. Why has that been an important evolution to that term, child sexual abuse material, and away from child pornography? **Laila:** Yeah, I think the way we talk about things matters. And one of the things brought to the surface regarding this issue. Is exactly what you’re saying, is this issue of abuse. And understanding abuse and talking about it in terms of abuse of children instead of pornography. ## The Importance Of Terminology: Distribution Of Intimate Images Without Consent **Laila:** So when I think of exploitative material, we think of an industry, we think of LA or a studio. We think of entertainment, we think of issues often brought up with free speech. And all these kinds of things that people talk about when they talk about it. Something used for pleasure. And so connecting children to that does not do justice to the harm that the Act has had on that child. And being able to call it child sexual abuse material. I think, really describes what’s going on in a way that is so much fairer to the experience of victims. And doesn’t minimize or legitimize it in any way. What they went through, because children can’t consent to any of this no matter what. So anything involving children, which is distribution of intimate images without consent. Like you said, advocates are starting to reframe that more and more. For people to better understand what’s going on by calling it child sexual abuse material. I agree with you regarding the consumption of this content when children are viewing it. I often call it a form of secondhand sexual abuse. Children exposed or even willingly seek out that content. A curious 10, 11 year old who heard the word it at school. He goes home and searches Google for the word and ends up on P\_\_\_\_b. Where there are so many thumbnails just on the home page where they auto play. You don’t even have to click play in any of the cases on the home pages of these sites. ## Impact On Children & Families **Laila:** A recent peer reviewed research study in England. They found significant videos on the homepages of these exploitative image tube sites, like P\_\_\_\_b. They represented non-consensual sexual activity or criminal sexual activity, or actual criminal and non-consensual sexual activity. So, this is a real form of abuse of children. Children are exposed at alarming rates when they access this. And it’s doing damage to them. So I’m a big advocate for protecting children from this kind of content. **Anne:** I’m willing to say it’s not even secondhand that it’s just simply sexual abuse. Children are sexually abused when they view it. And I was talking to a friend, and she said she overheard someone give this speech. And they were like, when a child comes to you and says they looked at it. You just need to say two words, and everything will be good. And you look at them and tenderly say, It’s okay, and then that solves everything. And she and I were like, no! No, that’s not what you say. You don’t say, it’s okay. You say, I’m so sorry. That should never have happened to you. That is a form of sexual abuse. I know you probably had some feelings going on because you’ve got a body, so you’re half curious, half traumatized. You talk about that stuff, but you should never say to a kid when they see it, it’s okay. Don’t say many people have viewed it, or that’s happened to everyone. You should not say that. You should say, I am so sorry. That should never have happened to you. Or the person in it who is a victim of distribution of intimate images without consent. **Laila:** Yeah, yes, I agree with that. ## Children Traumatized By Viewing **Laila:** And I’ve also been in touch with so many distraught parents, especially the last year and a half. They told me stories of their children. Viewing this content traumatizes them. What happens is serious. And in some cases, they’ve said, my son, after viewing the homepage of P\_\_\_\_b, believed he witnessed an attack. And based on what we know about P\_\_\_\_b, it’s likely that he witnessed an actual assault. That is distribution of intimate images without consent. He believed it was real. Even if it was staged. They said he wasn’t the same after that. He changed. Viewing it traumatized him in a very concrete, real sense. And had to go into therapy, and they’re still working through that. It’s months and months later after exposure. In other cases, parents have told me about situations where their children had viewed it and then acted out what they saw on their siblings. So basically a situation of assault and sexual assault against a younger sister, and that’s not uncommon to hear those stories. So I think it’s so important for us to see the seriousness of this. And handle it in a way that recognizes the real lasting trauma that could happen to children when they get exposed. And then we need to start advocating for protection. We need mandatory age verification laws. I was so encouraged to see what Germany is doing. ## Distribution Of Intimate Images Without Consent: International Legislative Efforts **Laila:** Germany is taking it so seriously that they’re on the brink of shutting down these sites, and the major tube sites in the country. Turning the switch off because they refuse to verify the age of users and protect children from this content. Because they recognize that it’s harmful to children. **Anne:** Go Germany! **Laila:** Yeah, exactly! And there are other countries, Canada has a bill introduced to do the same. Where they would require age verification for any site that hosts it. I think Australia is also looking into this, and the UK has taken this seriously. So I’m hopeful that we’ll get to a point where we are collectively having a new attitude about this and taking the harm to children very seriously. **Anne:** Let’s talk specifically about the trafficking hub movement. And what you do to stop the harm done by P\_\_\_\_b and also hold companies accountable that are profiting from assault videos. Video distribution of intimate images without consent. **Laila:** Yeah, so going back to where I left off with the story. So I had made that personal discovery, something that so many people had already known. Tthat all it took was to upload content onto the world’s largest sites was an email address. ## Anyone With An I-Phone Can Produce It **Laila:** So anonymously, anybody in the world with an iPhone could be a producer, record a crime scene and upload it to the site. Nobody was verifying age and consent. And because of that, they set the site up for exploitation. And infested with videos of real assaults, trafficking, assault, child sexual abuse, and also spy cam videos. People record women without their knowledge in public restrooms, changing rooms, and even teen prom toilets. Then they become victims of distribution of intimate images without consent. They’d installed cameras there and recorded and The site was full of those kinds of things. **Anne:** I have met several women in our community whose [husbands filmed them with a hidden camera](https://www.btr.org/if-your-husband-filmed-you-with-a-hidden-camera/ "husbands secretly filmed them with a hidden camera") in the shower or while they had sex, and then they uploaded. So we also know that in marriage relationships, this is happening. Husbands secretly film their wives in various compromising circumstances, and upload that. **Laila:** Yes, that’s happening quite a lot. Yes, distribution of intimate images without consent. Non consensually recorded and distributed in apps. And that is, yes, again, infested. This type of content infests these sites. When distribution of intimate images without consent happens, people record women. And they don’t even know. And then they upload it sites. P\_\_\_\_b had a download button on every video, where anyone in the world, 130 million visitors per day, could download and own it for free. That trauma of that individual or that non-consensual video recorded and distributed. And then uploaded forever again, and again, and again. It gets completely out of control once it’s uploaded in the first place. So the trauma to victims of this, they call it the immortalization of their trauma. ## MindGeek’s Monopoly & Accountability **Laila:** Where it’s one thing to experience an assault. It’s another thing to know that that assault will be used for profit long after they’re even gone. Because of distribution of intimate images without consent. And so, all that to say, back when I made this discovery about this issue. This site full of these illegal crime scene videos, I wrote an op-ed about it in February of last year. People were shocked and horrified when that was published. It got an explosive reaction. Because it has presented itself to the world for so many years. People spend so much money on things like save the pandas, bees, and the oceans. And raise awareness about breast cancer, donate masks for coronavirus to hospitals. And do all these different PR stunts. To make people believe they were this mainstream, ethical, “cute” company. And when they found out the site was full of child assault and abuse. They were horrified about what was going on. And they said, I want to do something, please start a petition or I will. So I copied and pasted my op ed into a petition for change. Our petition went viral. And now we have 2. 2 million signatures from 192 countries. And over 600 organizations from 65 countries participated in calling for P\_\_\_\_b to be held criminally responsible for what they’ve done. There have been protests outside the MindGeek headquarters. And MindGeek, FYI, MindGeek is the company that owns P\_\_\_\_b. MindGeek owns 80 percent, which is the number cited. 80 percent of the online mainstream industry. They have a monopoly on the global mainstream pornography industry. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## Distribution Of Intimate Images Without. Consent: Media Exposure & Financial Impact **Laila:** Owning hundreds of brands and sites, and they’ve basically swallowed up all the little companies. And rolled it all up into one huge mega corporation, MindGeek. And P\_\_\_\_b is just one site of the many, many sites they own, the flagship site. So calling for criminal accountability for MindGeek. Also, hundreds of media articles were written in 2020. And then the New York Times did a groundbreaking investigation and released an expose in December called the Children of P\_\_\_\_b. And this was the harrowing [stories of children who’d been abused](https://www.btr.org/how-do-i-know-if-its-abuse/) for profit on the site. They are victims of distribution of intimate images without consent. That resulted in 4, 000 follow-up articles. And within days, Visa, MasterCard, and Discover cut ties with P\_\_\_\_b and MindGeek. And then P\_\_\_\_b deleted 80 percent of its site. So the 10th most visited website in the world deleted 10 million videos in 24 hours after all this happened. And they’ve been on a crippling trajectory ever since, obviously financially crippled because they can only take cryptocurrency. But there have also been parliamentary investigations launched. Where the hidden owners of P\_\_\_\_b have been forced out of the shadows. They’ve been hiding their identities for years, using fake names and concealing themselves from the public. And they’ve been forced out of the shadows and identified. **Anne:** Oh, really quick. I doubt anyone would know who these people are, but who are they? Like, do they own a football team? Are they like doctors, are they like upstanding members of society? Like, who are they? ## Hidden Owners Names **Laila:** Yeah, I will say their names, because I like saying their names because they have hidden for so long. So Bern Birkmayer. He’s a man from Austria found just weeks ago, actually, by an investigative journalist. Who located him and actually got him on camera for the first time in London. But he also has a residence in Hong Kong. He’s a businessman. And Farris Antoon and Corey Ehrman. Corey Ehrman has used fake names, Corey Price and Blake White, for years, speaking in the media over and over again. And these are men who run the site, and they profit from [male entitlement to women’s bodies](https://www.btr.org/male-entitlement-women-bodies/ "male entitlement to women's bodies"). And the latest lawsuit is on behalf of 34 women. It is based on the testimonies of firsthand accounts of those inside the company, whistleblowers, and other evidence that this is actually a criminal enterprise. This is organized crime, and they were sued. Using the laws that we go after the mob with. So Rico racketeering, child pornography, trafficking, and all that was a massive lawsuit recently filed. So that’s who they are. **Anne:** We talk about all the pain and suffering that trafficking, and child sexual abuse causes to the world in general. And then obviously specific individuals. Who are victims of distribution of intimate images without consent. whIt’s just overwhelming, all the pain and suffering it’s caused. What do you think is next? And then also, how can our community of women who have been so deeply impacted in their homes by it. How can they help this cause? **Laila:** I agree. There have been people and advocates who’ve been pioneering. And pushing back against this for so many years, and it’s so exciting to see traction. ## The Power Of Collective Action **Laila:** And see the mega-predator, is what I call Mind Geek and P\_\_\_\_b accountable. Truly kind of a villain situation where you have the villain and the victims. And to see victims obtaining justice, getting their voices heard, exposing the criminal enterprise as the lawsuit called it behind all this. It’s so encouraging and exciting, but we’re not done yet. P\_\_\_\_b and MindGeek are severely crippled. And we’ve already seen a domino effect within its largest competitor. So the New York Times also did an expose after P\_\_\_\_b on XVideos. And PayPal stopped doing business with XVideos. And they’re under criminal investigation in the Czech Republic where they’re based. There’s been a shaking and reckoning within this industry. But we’re not done. We want to see real, full justice. And for me and the victims I’ve spoken to, what that means is restitution. For the distribution of intimate images without consent of the individual. We want successful civil litigation. And there have been six lawsuits. On behalf of 97 women launched against MindGeek since the summer of last year. And three of them are class actions for trafficked minors. But we want to see these successful. We want to see these victims compensated. And then we want to see criminal prosecutions of the executives responsible for this. Ultimately, what I see and victims see as justice is to see the site shut down. To see it actually shut down. Because you think about Harvey Weinstein when he was caught raping women. They didn’t let him just say sorry and go on his merry way. That’s not how the law works. That’s not how justice works. He needs to be put in prison for sexual abuse, criminal sexual abuse. ## How to Get Involved To Stop Distribution Of Intimate Images Without Consent **Laila:** So we need to see the same thing. We don’t let them hide behind a corporation. When this actual mass abuse has happened for so long. You want to be part of this, with so many organizations and advocates, individuals and victims. Who’ve joined this movement to hold MindGeek accountable and stop distribution of intimate images without consent. Sign the trafficking petition at [traffickinghubpetition.com](https://traffickinghubpetition.com). Share it, and also speak with your representatives. They work for you. And raise this issue with them and tell them we need to see the Stop Internet Sexual Exploitation Act passed. This is one way to [help stop human trafficking ](https://www.btr.org/is-watching-inappropriate-media-cheating/ "help stop human trafficking ")and exploiation. And that would require age and consent verification for every individual in every video on these sites. You can go to [justicedefensefund.org ](https://justicedefensefund.org)and read about what we’re doing to empower victims to pursue civil litigation against their abusers. Because these corporate abusers care about finances above everything. And so if we can hit them where it hurts, in their bank accounts and on behalf of victims, that’ll also help to really rein in this criminal enterprise. **Anne:** There are many women and people I talk to, and many people roll their eyes when I talk about it. Yeah, we know it’s bad, but trying to stop it, are you kidding me? You could never do that. And I always think, absolutely, we can. I don’t know how long it will take, I don’t know how we will do it. But we have to think that we can do something to actually do it. In the Christian faith, faith the size of a mustard seed can move a mountain. ## Personal Safety & Empowerment **Anne:** So it starts with us believing it’s possible. And for my community, the first thing they need to start believing is that they themselves can get to safety in their own homes. Number one thing on their list is emotional, physical, and sexual safety in your own home. As a victim myself, your own heart leads you to try and help others. Will you say that website will be one more time where they can sign that petition? **Laila:** Yeah, traffickinghubpetition.com. Awareness is the doorway to action, so we can stop distribution of intimate images without consent. You know, people can’t act on something they’re not aware of. And with regard to all this, in the industry, and people not taking this seriously. Or kind of joking about it. I think what is helpful is when people realize the real harm this is doing. To real victims in front of the screen and behind it, and to begin seeing this as the real human rights issue it is. And so get people to safety. For those used behind the screens, that’s a great thing. And those, like children exposed to this, prevent them from being exposed to this. Prevent that sexual abuse from ever happening. That’s a lot of effort, and if we can do that, that’s a huge victory. **Anne:** For one woman to become emotionally, psychologically, and sexually safe in her own home. That is a huge victory for her. And it’s also one of the battles in this war. Each one of us is a piece of this puzzle. If you are on this journey and need support, attend a [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session today](https://www.btr.org/group/). ## Building A Supportive Community For Victims Of Distribution Of Intimate Images Without Consent **Laila:** Yes, and never underestimate. What I’ve seen so much over the last year and a half. With this trafficking hub movement, one by one, adding your voice, organizations collaborating, and working together. We can’t take on a multi-billion dollar predatory criminal enterprise alone. We have to do it together, and that’s the only way we’re going to get traction. So encourage everyone to participate in whatever way you can. So we can stop distribution of intimate images without consent. **Anne:** Absolutely, I want to give women hope in their personal lives. That’s why I created [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). You can learn more by clicking that link. It helps women take tiny steps. Just one step at a time. Because this whole situation, especially if you’re facing it in your own home, is so overwhelming. With our community, I envision that women are becoming safe in their own homes. They are becoming an army of healthy women across the world. Who are helping other women get to emotional, psychological, and sexual safety as well. And the idea of that gives me hope when things seem really dark. **Laila:** I love the fact that this audience for this podcast is like an army of women. Who are so passionate about this issue because they’ve experienced the hurt of it themselves. And they can empathize and just come at it from a place of such a real motivation. For ending something that you personally experienced in your own life. And can use that energy and passion to help stop this from happening in the future to others. Love what you’re doing in your community. **Anne:** Thank you. And we’re so grateful for you and what you do again. To learn more about Laila’s organization, go to [justicedefensefund.org](https://justicedefensefund.org). **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [5 Stages: How to Leave a Toxic Relationship When You Have Kids](https://www.btr.org/how-to-leave-a-toxic-relationship-with-kids/) **Published:** August 13, 2024 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** If you're searching for how to leave a toxic relationship when you have kids, these are the 5 stages you need to understand first. **Content:** Are you wondering how to leave a toxic relationship when you have kids…maybe even part of you is still hoping things will change…for the kids’ sake. That makes sense. In fact, here’s the five stages most women go through when thinking about leaving a toxic man. ## THE 5 STAGES OF How to Leave a Toxic Relationship ### 1. Things Get So Bad That You Wonder If There’s Something Better Sometimes, things have to get really bad before you even start thinking about how to leave a toxic relationship when have kids and you realize things need to change. Maybe something big happens or things just keep getting worse and worse until you can’t ignore it anymore. It’s like waking up one day and realizing, “I can’t do this anymore.” Maybe you even discover he’s emotionally abusive. To discover if you’re experiencing any one of the 19 types of emotional abuse, take my [free emotional abuse test.](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/) ### 2. You Start to Do Something About It After you decide you can’t take it anymore, the next step in how to leave a toxic relationship is, to do something about it. This might not fix everything right away, and that’s okay. Trying to do something, even if it’s small, means you’re learning and getting stronger each time. It’s like practicing for a big play, trying different things to see what works best. ### 3. Commit To Protect Yourself (No Matter What) This step is when you decide to make a big change and stick with it. It could be deciding not to do something for the person hurting you anymore, or maybe even moving away from them. It’s like crossing a bridge and making sure you can’t go back to the way things were before. ### 4. DEVELOPING NEW Protective Strategies Even after you’ve made the change, it might feel strange for a bit. You’re getting used to a new way of living where you’re in charge. This time is for healing, finding out who you are, and starting to build a happy life. You might pick up new hobbies, make new friends, or work on your career. Little by little, things start to get better. ### 5. You Can See A Clear Path To The Peaceful Life You Want In the last step, you start to really believe you can have a happy life without being hurt. It feels like seeing the light at the end of a dark tunnel. You think about having a safe home, doing things that make you happy, and being with people who treat you well. This step is all about going from just getting by to living a great life, finding out who you are, and doing things you love. Thinking about a happy life helps you make good choices for yourself as you move away from being hurt. It’s like a light guiding you to a future where you’re happy and safe. ## Transcript: How To LEAVE A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP WHEN YOU HAVE KIDS **Anne:** We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re going to call her Janet. As we describe the processes we went through in determining how to leave a toxic relationship when you have kids, listen for how you can protect yourself from his emotional abuse. As you’re listening, if you can’t quite visualize this. There is a map embedded in this transcript below. And you can see that map. I’ll share part of the story of how I discovered [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop Strategies](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). The strategies work, whether you’re married or divorced. Before I discovered these strategies. I was trying to leave a toxic relationship with kids, becasue my ex-husband, even eight years after divorce, was being emotionally abusive almost daily. He was messaging me all the time. And was counter-parenting. He cancelled my kids’ medical appointments. He was trying to manipulate the situation so my kids wouldn’t take sports, so he didn’t have to pay for it. It was just constant stress and trauma. And I got really, really angry because I was like, I’m so good at boundaries. I was doing everything “right”. And the court wouldn’t help me, and clergy wouldn’t help me. I thought like, is there no way to actually live free from abuse? ![Can I Stop My Husband from Emotionally Abusing Me](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Stop-Emotional-Abuse-From-Your-Husband-Or-Ex.webp "Gain Freedom from Emotional Abuse")And people often said things like, well, you got to move on with your life. Why don’t you just get over it? You got divorced eight years ago, they’re thinking the abuse happened eight years ago, and I’m like, it happened today. When he messaged me today, he lied to me, and he tried to undermine my children. So I wondered how to stop emotional abuse from husband? ## The Communication Trap With Abusive Ex-Partners **Anne:** Janet before you enrolled in [The Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). Can you talk about all the things you tried, in knowing how to leave a toxic relationship with kids? **Janet:** A lot of us have gone through counseling, marriage therapy, or 1[2 step for wives of pornography addicts](https://www.btr.org/12-step-for-wives-of-addicts/ "2 step for wives of pornography addicts"), and most of the time they focus on our communication skills with our husbands or our exes. I felt that I could change the outcome if I could just communicate and explain it in a way that he could understand, treating him like he just didn’t know. We catch him in a lie, in real time, and we have full evidence. And we think if I point out, you just lied to me. He’s going to have an aha moment, own it. Hey, I’m so sorry. I totally just lied to you. And maybe do differently. So if I told him and explained it to him, it would stop. And the opposite happened every single time. In the Living Free Workshop, one lesson talked about when he has access to communication to continue to abuse us. The problem is that communicating with them is a trap. Right in the beginning, when we started to share the kids 50/50 from both of our houses, and things were falling apart at dad’s house. ## The Temptation To Argue & Communicate With Abusers **Janet:** And then I would get the kids back, and they would kind of unload all the things that had happened at dad’s house. I call him and say, hey, I can help you. You know, the mornings are chaotic. Can you set a timer? Wake yourself up at six, so you can wake the kids up at six thirty. the lunches pre-made, or teach the kids how to make their own lunches if you’re busy getting ready for work. And I thought it would help. Guess what happened? It just got worse, more chaos. Then he stopped waking the kids up altogether. They were late almost every day to school. If the kids would say anything, their dad would start to cry and say how sorry he was that he is trying his best. This is so hard, he’s working so hard, and he can’t seem to do anything right. His manipulation was so bad, so communication just doesn’t work. **Anne:** Yeah, and [The Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) explains why. So I’ll leave that to Living Free, because it does a really good job of explaining why communication doesn’t help. And then what to do. Luckily, the Living Free strategies can protect you from his emotional abuse in knowing how to leave a toxic relationship with kids without communicating anything to him. ## Strategies for How to Leave a Toxic Relationship With Kids **Anne:** It will teach you how to do strategic communication. So that if you communicate with him, the communication is protective. Betrayal Trauma Recovery is not a religious organization for many reasons. One of them is that we have clients from all over the world. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery team is interfaith, inter paradigm. We have women from different Christian faiths, other religions, agnostics, and atheists. Everybody is welcome here. I always hesitate to share my own religious experience, because their husband and clergy have spiritually abused so many women. Many women are still experiencing the [effects of spiritual abuse](https://www.btr.org/effects-of-spiritual-abuse/ "effect of spiritual abuse"). So they find scriptures or scriptural references to be very triggery and I absolutely do not blame them. So for women who find religious things to be a little triggery or for my agnostic or atheist or Muslim friends. If you can bear with me as I talk about deliverance in the context of Christianity, because this is how I discovered the Living Free strategies. ![How Can I Stop My Husband from Emotionally Abusing Me and My Kids](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Five-Stages-of-How-To-Stop-Emotional-Abuse-From-Husband-Or-Ex.webp "How to Get Free from Emotional Abuse")If you take [The Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/ "The Living Free Workshop"), all of it is secular. It’s not in the context of religion, and the principles work, no matter what your religion or paradigm is. If you’re interested in reading more about my study, you can see some of it at the back of the *Living Free Workbook*. If you’re not interested in learning more about my study, you can just disregard those last few pages. I realized the court could not answer stop the emotional abuse from my husband? Or would not, they probably could, but they refused to do anything to help me. I went to my clergy and said, hey, our church does not tolerate abuse. What are you going to do to not tolerate this? ## Anne Blythe’s Personal Journey Toward Deliverance From Abuse **Anne:** They literally just stared at me and blinked their eyes and didn’t know what to do. So I started praying. Everywhere in the scriptures, Christ is the Deliverer. He is the Savior. He delivers people from their enemies, saves people. So I thought, through my Savior, Jesus Christ, I should be able to get delivered. I didn’t have language for it at the time, but I was desperately trying to understand how to leave a toxic relationship and still protect myself and my children. In part of my study, I read a bunch of deliverance books from various religions. And the best story we have of deliverance is Moses delivering the children of Israel out of Egypt. So after studying deliverance for a year and continuing to pray. I decided to take a trip to Egypt. And Jerusalem with the specific intention of studying deliverance. In preparation for the trip. I wrote a bunch of prayers, and I put them on tiny pieces of paper. And while I was there, I prayed at the west wall in Jerusalem and stuck those prayers in the wall. And one of them was that I would be delivered, and then I could help deliver women all over the world. ![Can I Stop Emotional Abuse from My Husband or Ex](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/The-5-Stages-of-How-To-Stop-Emotional-Abuse-From-Your-Husband-Or-Ex.webp "Become Free from Emotional Abuse")Within six months of returning home from Jerusalem, after implementing the strategies I had discovered. I was delivered and my children were delivered. Without going to court. **Anne:** I had a legal document written up, and I used strategy to send it to my ex, and he signed it, but there was no court involved. So now they do not have to go with him if they don’t want to. And the parent time schedule is only one weekend a month, from Friday at six to Sunday. ## The Israelites’ Story As A Metaphor FOR HOW TO LEAVE A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP WITH KIDS **Anne:** With no midweek and only two weeks in the summer. And only two holidays ever, period the whole year, only two holidays. So basically, we get to do whatever we want now. I no longer need to protect myself from from my husband’s emotional abuse. I’m free now. I have this map of the children of Israel delivered, so Janet, you can see this. All right, so when I went to Egypt, I’m going to make up numbers here. But let’s say 500 feet on either side of the Nile is the most luscious, beautiful farmland because the water’s right there. And you can see when it changes from farm land that’s easy to water, bordering the Nile river, to a crazy absolute scary desert. We were on the Nile, and I looked out and it was like green and then like sand. So, if you look at a map of Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Israel at that time. Where the children of Israel were captive by Pharaoh. They were actually in the Nile delta, where there was a good farmland, lots of water. They weren’t living in a hole. And they’ve been there for hundreds of years. They were born there. So the Israelites at that time didn’t know anything else. They had never been to the promised land. They knew nothing about it. So even though they were enslaved and oppressed, it’s the only thing they’d ever known. So when Moses is commanded to deliver the Israelites. They ask Pharaoh to let them go. And he says, no. So then God sends frogs and fire from the sky and turns the Nile into blood. All of those plagues. ## STAGE 1: Things Get So Bad That You Wonder If There’s Something Better **Anne:** Now everyone sees this as God’s way of forcing Pharaoh to let them go. But I actually think. It was for the Israelites. Because when these things happened to Pharaoh, when the Nile turned to blood and all the frogs and the fire from the sky. It wasn’t just happening to Pharaoh. It was also happening to the Israelites. So even though it’s the only thing they’ve ever known. It got so bad. They started thinking. Maybe there’s something better. So for all abuse victims, this is stage one. When things get so bad, you start wondering. If there’s something better out there. ## STAGE 2:You Start To Do Something About It The second stage, I’ll talk about in a story of Moses in just a minute, is you start to do something about it. Now many women are trying to figure out what’s going on. They start to try to find out how to leave a toxic relationship with kids. They’re resisting the abuse by getting help. So many women will try pornography addiction, recovery or couple therapy. Janet. What did you try during this stage? ![How to Leave a Toxic Relationship](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Leave-A-Toxic-Relationship-1-1-e1774575538300.webp "How to Leave a Toxic Relationship")How to Leave a Toxic Relationship**Janet:** I tried anger management, sex addiction therapy, CSAT, couples therapy. All of the above. **Anne:** Yeah, because that’s what everyone tells us to do. We don’t understand it’s abuse, we try to get help for [betrayal trauma in marriage.](https://www.btr.org/betrayal-trauma-in-marriage/) We go for help. In the case of the Israelites. Moses starts by trying to negotiate with Pharaoh. I wonder if some Israelites wondered if they could maybe strike a deal with Pharaoh, where they had to work a little bit less. Where they got a little more food. The land, there is goodness there. ## How To Leave A Toxic RElationship With Kids: Overcoming Fear J**anet:** This is the man that I built a family with, I love him. He isn’t horrible a hundred percent of the time, because I’m still in the fog of the abuse. So I haven’t even gotten the chance to feel relief enough to realize how much abuse is going on. **Anne:** Right, at this point, the Israelites like legit might think more about the frogs, the fire from the sky, and the blood of the Nile. Than they are about Pharaoh’s oppression. Thinking that some of it is good. Not realizing that the good was also bad. It was grooming to keep them stuck, to keep them oppressed. [The Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) explains this really well. So finally, after all these plagues, Pharaoh was like, fine. I think we underestimate how difficult it was. For an entire group of people to pack up and leave. They’re going out into the desert, they’ve never left before. They don’t know anything else. So I imagine them getting out their carts. And putting everything they own in these carts. And I’m wondering if Pharaoh’s like, hold on no, no, no. You can’t take all those animals. You can’t take this cart. So there’s this period of time of figuring out who’s going to take what. And finally, they can actually move out. And they’re making their way out of Egypt. Now, if you look at a map, you’ll notice that the Jerusalem is up near where the delta is of the Nile,. And they could’ve just walked across the top of the Sinai peninsula instead of going south. ## Navigating The Exodus: A Journey Of Survival **Anne:** Assuming they’re led by God, he wants them to go this very hard way. That has a massive body of water in between Egypt and the Sinai peninsula. What are they going to do? Like build boats, you know? When I was there, I was like, what in the world? Why wouldn’t you just walk from point A to point B? That does not have a giant body of water. In between. But instead, they go south to the Red Sea. And they get stuck. By this time, Pharaoh has changed his mind. He sent his armies after them. They can’t go forward. Or they’ll drown. And maybe some of them wanted to go back, but chances are, if they did go back, Pharaoh would take it up a notch and oppress them so that they could not escape again. And a miracle occurs. Moses parts, the red sea. Aside from the absolute awe of being completely blown away by this incredible miracle. Let’s think about the practicalities of this situation. The Red Sea was not parted until this point. Water had covered the bottom of the red sea for thousands of years. There’s no well-worn path at the bottom of the red sea. So, if you start down this path, you’re going to be up to your waist in mud, tripping over rocks. And if it were me, I would think the entire time, is this water going to fall down on us and kill us? They didn’t know if they would even survive crossing the Red Sea. I’m guessing that, due to the practicalities of the situation, some people were like, uh, I’ll take my chances with Pharaoh. Because, the way forward seems too dangerous. ## HOW TO LEAVE A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP WHEN YOU HAVE KIDS: THE RED SEA CROSSING **Anne:** We don’t know how long it took the Israelites to cross the Red Sea in the mud, and the rocks. But it could have taken days. Luckily, the Lord held the Egyptians back with that pillar of fire. So they couldn’t come destroy them during the process of crossing. But again, the entire time they’re crossing, they don’t even know if they’re going to survive. **Janet:** And they didn’t know what was on the other side. They’ve never tasted that freedom. They don’t know what that land will look like. So they could see the Red Sea parted freeze and not take those steps through the mud. **Anne:** I remember praying. Save me, God save me. And God is like, yes, I’m here. I will save you. Start walking across the mud. And I’m thinking. But I don’t want to get my feet dirty. As I learned these strategies, I remember telling God, like, what, you want me to step in that mud? **Janet:** This analogy of the Israelites approaching the Red Sea and not knowing what’s going to happen. Their life had to get so bad that it pushes them to conquer the fear of watching those waters part. Looking at that ground and actually doing the hard steps of sludging through with all their items. With the fear that the water might come down on them. They don’t know what’s on the other side. They don’t know if their enemies will get through. It’s almost that gift of the emotional abuse from my husband got so bad that there’s no other choice. I don’t know what this will look like to leave a toxic relationship when you have kids. I don’t know how hard it will be to pass through those waters. ## Stage 3: Commit To Protect Yourself (No Matter What) **Anne:** When I look at this map, I think the reason they went down south is instead of just going up and going east over the top part of the Sinai peninsula. Is that once they got to the other side and the water fell down, they couldn’t go back. And that’s the third stage of how to leave a toxic relationship when you have kids, protection. It’s protecting yourself through the strategies I teach in [The Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/ "The Living Free Workshop"), and committing to those strategies no matter what. No matter how much he tries to manipulate you or whatever grooming tactics he uses. That you maintain those safety strategies, not just with him, but with people around you. ![Bad Things People Say To Victims Of Emotional Abuse](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/J4S2vwdknzc/maxresdefault.jpg) Because I think the reason God had them go south and cross the Red Sea was because he did not want them to go back. It was also a protection. There would be no other way to stop Pharaoh’s army, had they gone across the north of the Sinai peninsula. God wants us to use safety strategies to protect ourselves. And to use them, no matter how hard it gets. The Living Free Workshop gives women strategies to protect themselves. And these strategies work, but the key is commitment. If your husband is abusive. He’s going to try to exploit you in all kinds of ways. He may groom you. You don’t know what’s going to happen when you start actually protecting yourself. [The Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/ "The Living Free Workshop") lays out exactly what to do to protect yourself. In a way that he can’t get around it, it’s not up to him anymore. It has nothing to do with him. You can protect yourself no matter what he does. ## The Emotional Journey Of Post-Abuse Recovery: Wandering In The Wilderness **Anne:** The Israelites only had two options. Be slaughtered by Pharaoh or recognize that God had presented this safety strategy. He parted the Red Sea. And they could walk through. So let’s talk about the other side. On the other side, they’re protected from Pharaoh’s army, because Pharaoh’s army is now destroyed. But they don’t know where they’re going, and they don’t know where they’re going to get food or water. I’m sure. Some of them regretted crossing the Red Sea, because now they couldn’t go back. And they missed that lush farmland, where they used to live. Many of them probably feel worse off now than before. Pharaoh is not oppressing them, but their situation is difficult. The Living Free strategies require sacrifice. It will feel like you’re just living day to day, and you won’t know exactly what’s going to happen. So it’ll feel like wandering around. But if you commit to the strategies. They can help you be delivered from the emotional abuse by your husband. The children of Israel wander around what is today Saudi Arabia, the Sinai peninsula, for 40 years. They get manna from heaven. And they have to live day by day, they can’t plan for the future. They don’t have a map. They’re led by a pillar of sand. So they went from this lush delta where they had everything they needed. To living in a tent in the middle of nowhere. ## STAGE 4: How to LEAVE A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP Using Protective Strategies Day-by-Day **Anne:** When I went to Jerusalem, we wandered in the wilderness. I looked out the window of the bus. There were actual dirt devils out there all over the place. I was, what? Some of them were bigger than others, but that pillar by day, that they followed to figure out where to go. I thought, I can totally see this happening. That is fascinating to me, and it was hot. I was there at the end of April, beginning of May, and it was like a hundred degrees. It was so, so hot. The scriptures talk about the cloud that would come between the Israelites and the sun to shade them. There’s the pillar that guides them. They get manna from heaven day by day. They get water out of a rock. They’re committed to protecting themselves from Pharaoh. As you use [The Living Free Strategies](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/ "The Living Free Strategies"), there will be miracles along the way. In my faith, we call them tender mercies. This is stage four of how to leave a toxic relationship when you have kids. Using protective strategies day by day. Not knowing exactly where they’ll lead you. ![How Do I Stop My Ex Husband from Emotionally Abusing Me and My Kids](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/5-Stages-of-How-To-Stop-Emotional-Abuse-From-Your-Husband-Or-Ex.webp "Get Free from Emotional Abuse")**Janet:** This phase was like euphoria, the waters did not crash down on top of me. For the first time in however many decades, I can breathe. I have a safe home for my kids. It’s like living for the first time. **Anne:** I’ve heard women say, I can breathe again. Or at this stage, something like. I went outside and I could see color. **Janet:** That I could taste food,. **Anne:** Yeah. **Janet:** Or sit there for hours, like, wait, what am I supposed to eat? I have the option of choosing what I’m going to eat. It’s like learning to live. ## Finding Deliverance From Abuse **Anne:** I think they’re amazed that they receive manna from heaven. They have what they need. Even though they might not have what they want, their lifestyle is maybe drastically different than before. They might not be eating the same foods they ate before, but they’re living on rice and beans. They’re not starving to death. For awhile, it feels good. Then it’s like, wait a minute. It would be nice to know what’s going to happen next. Even though you’re mostly protected from abuse. There’s still quite a bit of uncertainty. When I was in Jerusalem. I also went to Jordan and literally wandered around in the same wilderness that it talks about in the Bible. Then we went to Mount Nebo. Mount Nebo is where the Israelites went right before they could go to the promised land. From Mount Nebo, they look out and see the promised land. Across the Dead Sea. It was surreal to be in Jerusalem. It’s a lot, like the Salt Lake Valley where I’m from. I felt at home there, because it has the same geographical features as Utah. We actually have Utah Lake, and there’s a river between Utah Lake and the Great Salt Lake called the Jordan River. It’s the same thing in Jerusalem, the Red Sea, then the River Jordan flows into the Dead Sea. And the Dead Sea and the Great Salt Lake, both do not drain. So they’re both salt, and you can easily float in them. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## STAGE 5: How To LEAVE A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP AND FIND A Path To A Peaceful Life **Anne:** Then in Jordan, we went to Petra, which is like Zion National Park. In fact, we even have a mountain in Utah called Mount Nebo. And my mom was raised right under the shadow of Mount Nebo, in Utah. So I felt at home in Jerusalem and in Jordan. I feel like God tasked me to help deliver women from abuse. While I was on Mount Nebo. I wanted to talk to Moses. because Moses never made it down from mountain Nebo. He actually died on Mount Nebo. He never made it to the promised land. So on Mount Nebo, I thought maybe I would never make it. Maybe I won’t be delivered, but I want to make sure everybody else is. So Moses, please teach me what you want to teach me while I’m here. So I left the tour group. Trying to find a quiet place where I could pray. And Moses did not come and talk to me, unfortunately. But Mount Nebo is where I had the inspiration for stage five. You can see a clear path to the peaceful life that you want. And you know exactly how to get there. Janet, we were talking before. And you mentioned that was how you felt when you discovered strategic communication. You knew you needed to do it. Can you talk about seeing that clear path? And then of course. The difficulty of walking the path of how to leave a toxic relationship when you have kids. **Janet:** Strategic communication was the hardest thing for me. The mixture of fears from my court experience, portrayed as gatekeeping and keeping the kids away from him. Just the fear of him and what he had put me through. ## Seeking A Promised Future: From Mount Nebo To Wanting Justice **Janet:** I was constantly worried about not explaining every detail to him, holding his hand through parenting, reminding him when early out was, even if it was his parenting time. Just constantly, he lived rent free in my brain. Getting to the part where you stop trying to explain. It wasn’t the fear, I just couldn’t give up wanting justice. Wanting to show him in his face what he is doing to the kids and have him own it. Until I realized he’s even using that. That’s even a way of him trapping me on purpose. He was abusing the kids to get to me. There’s no justice. Just the pure anger for whatever the situation is, anger, fear. Will he take me back to court, or could I get in trouble somehow? Being so worn out, the [abuse will not stop](https://www.btr.org/covert-emotional-abuse/), and just being tumbled like in the waves. Coming up for air, and then another wave comes, and then coming up for air, and another wave comes. the exhaustion of trying to communicate somehow. It all leads into a different trap. Living Free made how to stoping the emotional abuse so simple. The lessons are very short. It’s like your best friend is holding your hand. Print out the workbook, you can watch it again. If you feel like you missed that concept, go back and watch it again. It makes it easy, and I wish I had it at the beginning of my divorce. Strategic communication was so good. ## Lessons From The Living Free Workshop: HOW TO LEAVE A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP **Anne:** That’s so exciting. The tools in [Living Free](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) are about protecting ourselves. But they’re not about asking victims to let go, move on, or stop giving away their power. Or all those triggery, I think stupid things people say to us. Of course, you would want justice. That anger will serve you well. Speaking of anger when I first discovered the strategies. Uh, I did not want to do them. It. did not seem like the best idea. Especially with strategic communication. I was like, what? You want me to write it like that? That’s ridiculous. But I did it anyway. And the fruits were incredible. Not only did they improve my situation, but I felt better from the inside out. It wasn’t until I implemented the strategies that I figured out why. And I explained all of it well in the [Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). **Janet:** When I started doing strategic messaging, I saw the benefits. You’re not, in harm’s way. But my ex shifted to come at me from a different angle. **Anne:** Yeah, isn’t that interesting? Cause of their exploitative character. They’re not happy when they can’t exploit you anymore. Cool thing is though, after Living Free, you can identify the traps. **Janet:** Absolutely, and staying kind to ourselves as we trip and fall and get stuck in another trap and use it as a learning experience. I learned each time, and keep going. And keep going and keep going. That’s the gift. You’re right where you need to do what you need to do. ## Strategies For Peace And Resilience: Finding Liberation **Anne:** The reason I laughed is because it’s a journey to find out how to leave a toxic relationship when you have kids. You know, there were times where I wasn’t sure. And then looking back, it was clear that the strategies led me exactly where I needed to be. The cool thing about the Living Free Workshop is that it just teaches strategies. But it doesn’t dictate what you need to do. So for example, it doesn’t push you toward divorce or push you toward remaining married. They’re just safety strategies that women can apply in any situation. **Janet:** Anne, thank you for having me on and talking about this. I love the map and just walking through the deliverance process like you did. [The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) is so beneficial for any woman on any stage. If she is still overwhelmed in the fog of abuse, Living Free has made it so simple. It makes it easy, and I wish I had it at the beginning of my marriage. **Anne:** Yeah, don’t we all? Again, these strategies work in any stage. Our coaches can help you implement the strategies and apply them. Thank you so much, Janet, for talking with me today. **Janet:** Thank you so much, Anne. Have a good night. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Strategies For Divorcing An Abusive Husband With Wendy Hernandez](https://www.btr.org/divorcing-an-abusive-husband/) **Published:** March 7, 2023 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Are you feel overwhelmed at the thought of hiring a lawyer or fighting for custody? **Content:** Are you considering divorcing an abusive husband? If you feel overwhelmed at the thought of hiring a lawyer or fighting for custody? To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take this [free emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). Wendy, an attorney, joins Anne Blythe, M.Ed. to talk about divorcing an abusive husband. [To learn strategy for dealing with and abusive husband before and after divorce, enroll in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop.](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) ![Divorce Lawyer Abusive Husband](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Divorce-Lawyer-Abusive-Husband.webp "Divorce Lawyer Abusive Husband")## Hiring An Attorney When Divorcing An Abusive Husband Abuse and betrayal victims may feel daunted and overwhelmed at the idea of interviewing and hiring an attorney. Here are some helpful tips for choosing an attorney when divorcing an abusive husband: - Interview more than one attorney - Make sure your attorney understands narcissism and post-separation abuse - Choose an attorney that will fight for you, but not stir the pot - Make sure that you understand your attorneys fees from the get-go - Select an attorney that you feel comfortable and safe with Victims can enlist trusted friends to help them in the attorney selection process. This is not a decision that needs to be rushed and women can trust their intuition through the process. ![How to Divorce an Abusive Husband](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Divorce-An-Abusive-Husband.webp "How to Divorce an Abusive Husband")## Find Healthy Ways To Work Through The Trauma While Divorcing An Abusive Husband Get the emotional help you need, so your attorney can help you. When women try to navigate the legal system while carrying heavy burdens of trauma and living in constant fight-or-flight mode, they may have trouble making decisions. Emotionally-based decisions tend to muddy the waters and make it difficult for victims to think strategically. Victims can choose to process their trauma and express their emotions in safe and consistent ways by joining support groups, like the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group](https://www.btr.org/group/ "Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group"), so that when it’s time to focus on the legal aspect of their situation, they can give it their full attention. ## Divorcing An Abuser 101: Understand “Best Interest Factors” When working through a custody battle, it’s important that victims understand the concept of “best interest factors” – or, what the courts will be considering as the important issues that determine who the children should be spending their time with. Wherever you are in your journey to healing, Betrayal Trauma Recovery is here for you. Custody battles, divorce, and discovering a partner’s infidelity are all life-altering, traumatic experiences. [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/ "Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group") offers the support that you need as you navigate this trying time. Join today and find the community that you deserve. ![Strategies for Divorcing an Abusive Husband](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Strategies-For-Divorcing-An-Abusive-Husband.webp "Strategies for Divorcing an Abusive Husband")## Transcript: Divorcing An Abusive Husband **Anne:** I have Wendy Hernandez on today’s episode. Wendy is a courtroom lawyer who has tackled every type of family law matter from divorce to child custody, to everything in between. Welcome Wendy. **Wendy:** Thank you, Anne. It’s wonderful to be here. **Anne:** So many of our listeners are just finding out about their husband’s abuse, their husband’s pornography use, or his double life. And they’re starting to wrap their head around the fact that they might be in an abusive relationship. So we have that segment of listeners. Then we have a segment of listeners who are now looking back on their marriage post divorce. They’re like, whoa, I didn’t realize that all the stuff that happened to me is an [example of emotional abuse](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/ "example of emotional abuse"). Those women, when it comes to the law, are most concerned about upcoming custody issues that have happened since the divorce. Let’s first talk to that first demographic of women who are just coming out of the fog of abuse. Maybe some of them are thinking, can I stay in this marriage? They’re maybe starting to think about divorce. To those women, what types of things are important for them? As they’re considering, should I considering steps toward divorcing an abusive husband? **Wendy:** Yes, so first and foremost, you have to think about your safety and the safety of your children. And I know that many women feel guilty about leaving marriages for spiritual reasons. What is at risk is your life and the lives of your children. If you have children. When they’re in these relationships that are not only life threatening, but soul crushing. ![How to Get Divorce from Abusive Husband](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Get-Divorce-From-Abusive-Husband.webp "How to Get Divorce from Abusive Husband")## Emotional & Psychological Safety Strategies **Wendy:** If you are in danger, start preparing to get out. I wouldn’t say get out until you’ve put some thought into it, until you have a plan in place, and [you have some safe people ](https://www.btr.org/affair-recovery-advice-for-betrayed-women/)that you can rely upon to help you get through this, because you will need the support from an emotional standpoint. So first and foremost, use Anne and the resources she has available to determine whether you’re safe or not. **Anne:** Yeah, she’s talking about [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/), which helps women determine their husband’s character, to see how safe he is. And then we’ll give you emotional and psychological safety strategies, both in terms of setting boundaries, but also how to communicate so that you can protect your emotions no matter what stage you’re in. ![Divorce Abusive Husband](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Divorce-Abusive-Husband.webp "Divorce Abusive Husband")## Challenges Divorcing An Abuser Even if you’re never going to consider divorcing an abusive husband, they will still help you emotionally. They’ll still help you get to emotional and psychological safety. **Wendy:** If you decide you’re not safe or your children are not safe, then it’s time to leave. I want to share a story about a potential client I met with last week. She had just wanted to get through the divorce, and her attorney at the time really pressured her. Let’s just get through this. And as a result, she agreed to joint custody of her children. So fast forward about a year later, and the abuse is getting worse. It’s affecting the children. He’s starting to direct it towards them. Her attorney was a man, but essentially he encouraged her to sweep the abuse under the rug. This is an example of how [divorcing an abusive husband](https://www.btr.org/divorcing-an-abusive-husband/ "divorcing an abuser") can be complicated. You have to be in alignment with what you know to be the truth. That may mean you have to stand up to people you think are actually on your side. ## Legal & Financial Abuse In Divorce **Wendy:** Sometimes emotional abuse is legal and financial abuse that occurs while divorcing an abusive husband. The abuser says, you know, if you persist. Then I’m going to bleed you financially. So it can also turn into a type of scorched earth litigation, where it goes on for not just months, but years. And everything is destroyed in the process. So, whoever’s going through this, they have to evaluate what makes sense for them. Because if everything’s destroyed, if all bank accounts are destroyed. Or you lose your friends and family, which sometimes can happen with emotional abusers. They tend to get into the heads of people we love and convince the friends and family that the victim is actually the crazy one. It’s hard for me to tell people how to navigate that without knowing the circumstances of each individual case, but you just got to know what can happen. ![Divorcing Narcissistic Controlling Husband](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Divorcing-Narcissitic-Controlling-Husband.webp "Divorcing Narcissistic Controlling Husband")**Anne:** Let’s talk about the injustices of that situation. So many victims are just horrified when they find out they need to compromise with their abuser. And I just want to say out loud and acknowledge that it isn’t fair, it’s not okay, and it shouldn’t be the case. But because it is the case, can we talk about how victims can maybe reframe it. Because it’s really, really devastating. Like I’m never going to get help, no one’s ever going to help me. This is [how abusers gaslight](https://www.btr.org/how-do-abusers-gaslight/ "how abusers gaslight") the victim and the system. I meant I didn’t know what to do when [my husband said he doesn’t love me](/husband-says-he-doesnt-love-me/). **Wendy:** Yeah, the judiciary needs a lot of education, especially when it comes to emotional abuse. I believe, and you probably agree, that it is the least recognized form of abuse. Judges usually only sit up and notice when there’s physical abuse and doctor’s reports. ## Divorcing An Abusive Husband: Healing & Moving On **Wendy:** There’s this saying I like to tell my clients, and that is, do you want to be right or do you want to be done? And again, you have to find that balance between the truth and moving on with your life. Because I feel like true healing begins when you can do this initial separation. If it’s a physical or legal separation from the abuser, and then less burdened and more able to get on with the healing. The longer you’re enmeshed in this litigation, you’re just embroiled in it, and it’s hard to move on. It’s hard to heal when constantly getting messages from an attorney or ex about whatever legal matters are pending. Or when you’re having to go to court. So, there’s a lot to be said for healing. ![What Is Post Separation Abuse?](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/P9gSfGR_3R4/maxresdefault.jpg) And I feel like when somebody can throw off the shackles by finally divorcing an abusive husband, they can fly. They can become more than they’ve ever imagined. I believe their potential is unlimited, but while that oppressor is still involved in every aspect of their life and still controlling them, it’s hard to get to that place. **Anne:** Yeah, women wonder [how long it will take to heal from emotional abuse](https://www.btr.org/how-long-does-it-take-to-heal-from-emotional-abuse/ "how long it will take to heal from emotional abuse") and healing cannot happen until we can protect ourselves. Let’s talk about post separation abuse and how that affects women. When people think, I’ll help this victim escape this abusive marriage. And then everything will be fine. And they don’t realize that divorce does not solve abuse. Sometimes, it can escalate the abuse through either legal abuse, or abusing the kids. Many women are horrified. They think, Oh, he’s a good guy. I think the divorce will go okay. Then it gets worse during the divorce. And then it’s even worse after the divorce. So can you talk about post separation abuse? ## Keeping Communications In Writing **Wendy:** It’s fairly common sense, but many people forget about it, so it bears repeating here. And that is, if you can, keep all your communications in writing with the abusive ex. You may not have had those communications prior to separation, there’s no reason why you shouldn’t be. You should be for your own protection, for the protection of your kids. And when you’re divorcing an abusive husband, he will try to bend the rules, get the survivor to do what he wants. And use the children as pawns in this game. So keeping communications professional and to the point and centered on the children is important. When you end up in court again, and I say when, because it’s probably going to happen if you’re dealing with an abuser. So the documentation is key. There are certain programs available. One’s called *Our Family Wizard.* And these programs help keep track of the communications. A judge can even access the communications if the judge wants to, to look at what’s been going on between the parties. So where somebody may not have had documentation prior to separation or divorce. They can have plenty of documentation after. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) And I’ve had many victims of abuse who have used those post separation communications to gain an advantage in a post divorce lawsuit regarding custody of the children. So documentation is key. Avoid verbal communication, verbal contact with the abuser because they will make promises they will not keep, they will say things were said that were not said. And as you know, because they are so charming and they’re so convincing, there are many cases where the judge believes them. So just keep it in writing. That’s my best advice. ## Strategic Messaging Workshop **Anne:** So when women enroll in the [Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) they’ll learn how to use strategy to protect themselves. I’ve seen it happen with so many victims. Their abusers’ messages sound so nice. He says, hey, if we could just get together and talk about this, we can work it out. If you’re divorcing an abusive husband, don’t fall for this. It is grooming or hoovering because they want to hook us back in. Then they’ll say all kinds of stuff that’s not documented. And I talk all about that in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. Can you talk about the scenario where women are groomed through written communication? And that grooming manipulates them to drop their guard and talk to their abuser in person, and how you’ve seen that backfire. **Wendy:** Yes, we are raising awareness of this right now, it happens all the time. To the victim, survivor out there, do not drop your guard. You know this person, and you know how they can flip. You know how they can turn, and they’re not going to change after the divorce is over. So don’t let down your guard. You have to maintain your resolve. And keep those communications in writing. I don’t see any reason why all communication should not be in writing, and I would never let down the guard. The abuser could go a few years and not do anything offensive. You let down your guard. And then boom, they smack you. So it’s important to you and your children not to let down the guard and keep it all in writing, because it does backfire. ## Divorcing An Abusive Husband: Court Perception Of Communication **Anne:** How do the courts see that scenario? So for example, if an abuser said, hey, I’ve been trying to talk to her. I keep sending her these emails, and then he shows the judge the emails. And in the emails he’s like, why can’t we talk? Why can’t we work it out? How do judges see those types of communications? **Wendy:** So I think judges have a problem when a person is not responding at all, and I would say never do that. Especially if the abuser is emailing, hey, there’s this issue with the kids, and let’s try to work it out. Always respond to those. I’ve seen people get into trouble where they completely shut down. That’s normal. It happens. You know, you have PTSD, and there are ways to respond without having to respond. We’ve talked about that, Anne. **Anne:** Yeah, exactly. Those are the strategies I teach in [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). It’s a way of responding that protects you. It protects your emotions, but also protects you and your kids during the process of divorcing an abuser. **Wendy:** Yes, and I’ve had somebody lose custody of their children before. Because the judge said, listen, people share joint custody when they can co-parent, but you’re not responding. So that tells me that you cannot co-parent. Therefore, I’m giving custody to the abuser. So respond always, keep the response short. We know the abuser will go on and on for pages about whatever the issues are. And if you can, distill it down to what the real issues are, and respond very short and succinctly, and keep it on point. ## Working Through Writing Messages **Wendy:** But don’t ignore communications. Anne, I don’t know if you want to talk about what we discussed. **Anne:** Yeah, [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) strategies, yeah, women have seen amazing results with these strategies. It’s not legal advice, so it’s not the same as talking with an attorney or coming up with a legal strategy. But it is a communication strategy, and it works whether you’re married or divorced. Before I wrote the workshop. I didn’t know if it was a fluke, it worked for me, and would it work for other women. So I mentored women, and we worked through writing their messages with the criteria I came up with. And all the women I worked with had great results in court. Their messages looked spotless in court. They looked like they could co-parent well. One of the women I mentored, her ex, had taken her to court five times after divorcing an abusive husband, for custody things, five times. She told me, Anne, nothing has helped me, like [The Living Free](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). This is a game changer. I’m going to win this case. And I don’t think he’s ever going to come after me again. I was so glad to hear that. The messages in the The Living Free workshop are actual real messages of women that I mentored. So some of them are consolidated or clarified, but these are the actual abusers messages and then the strategic messages back. I do have a section of examples of what’s not strategic, so that women can see the difference. ## Keep The Lines Of Communication Flowing **Anne:** The cool thing about [Betrayal Trauma Recovery is it’s not just that. If you need to talk to somebody about the strategies. Our coaches can help](https://www.btr.org/individual/). So. It’s a game changer for women. **Wendy:** Yes, the important thing is that the lines of communication are flowing. It doesn’t matter how they’re flowing, as long as they’re flowing. If somebody’s helping a victim respond to emails and communications about the kids. As long as that communication is happening and represents what the victim and survivor wants and thinks is best for the children. I don’t see why a judge would have a problem with that. Not responding is what I think could potentially cause a person to have issues with the court. **Anne:** Is there anything else for women considering divorce when married to an abusive husband that you see them do in the beginning? Maybe they don’t realize this is a trap that’s not going to hurt me right now, but it might hurt me in five years or 10 years. **Wendy:** The main thing is denying or saying, avowing that there was no abuse in the relationship. That could potentially hurt down the road. **Anne:** So are you saying they don’t necessarily need to bring it up if they’re using strategy? But they should never say it didn’t happen. So they should never write an affidavit or something that says there was no abuse. Because then that will be held against them later. **Wendy:** Yes, and the second thing is getting the help they need from somebody like you and the people on your team. As an attorney, I often see women making. decisions based on emotion, or they can’t make decisions because they are so emotional. And it makes the case really hard to move forward. ## Divorcing An Abusive Husband: Attorneys Aren’t Trained In Emotional Abuse **Wendy:** For me as an attorney, I’m not a trained professional in this area. I do my best. And most attorneys are not trained that way. And it would be amazing if all my emotionally abused clients could get the help they need. Because I think if they have [self care after emotional abuse](/self-care-books-for-women/ "self care after emotional abuse"), the legal aspect of it flows a lot better. Because they’re not in the fight or flight state of mind all the time, which makes things foggy. They can see the options available to them and make a decision based on reason. So get the emotional help you need, so your attorney can help you. If you don’t have an attorney helping you so you can see what’s available, see what’s at stake. And make a decision based on reason. **Anne:** Now let’s talk to this other group of women who’ve already been through divorcing an abusive husband. Perhaps they didn’t have an attorney who understood abuse, and now it’s after the fact. So they can’t go back in time. So maybe now they’re looking for a modification or looking to solve some of their post divorce problems. What are some of the things that you see women having trouble with when they’re trying to navigate post divorce legal issues with an abuser? **Wendy:** One thing that I see frequently. I’ve just had a string of cases where my clients dealt with this. The client and the children continued to have the same issues they experienced during the marriage. And so we brought this to the attention of the judge, and what the judge said is that this is no different than what you told me two years ago. There’s not been a change in circumstances. So because of that, I’m leaving things as they are. ## Proving Changes In Circumstances **Wendy:** So, you have to be mindful of the changes, the differences between what you went through. And now fast forward two, three, four, five years from now. And you have to distinguish what is happening now from what happened when the divorce happened. Because the judge will be looking at what changed. And even though the claims may be the same as you made during the divorce. If you can point to, hey, the kids are having trouble in school. Or hey, the kids pediatrician thinks they need some sort of mental health counseling because of X, Y, Z. If there are changes in health, even though the base issues are the same. If you have some third party saying these issues are causing some real effects, that would be helpful. **Anne:** Yeah. And we’re positioned a little differently, because you’re an attorney and they’re hiring you to help them take their ex to court. I don’t recommend they ever take their ex back to court, but instead use the [Living Free Strategies.](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) Because court is so risky, you can lose in court more than you already have. And it gets dangerous, you know? It’s different for you, because you’re an attorney and they’re hiring you to do that. So they’ve decided they want to do that. They don’t know there’s another option. Like strategy is an option, and you can use strategy out of court. **Wendy:** Yes, yes in one of the cases I had where the judge said there was no change in circumstances. The judge was looking hard for something. And one of the kids had difficulties in school. But the records didn’t reflect what the judge wanted to see. ## Book Recommendation **Wendy:** If there’s documentation, that’s helpful, but you need to work with your attorney when you are divorcing an abusive husband. You need to look at the rules and your jurisdiction to see what the guidelines are in terms of modifying custody, decision-making, or parenting time. If there’s a change in circumstances, be sure to prove it. Otherwise, the judge will dismiss the case. At worst, the judge could make you pay the other party’s attorney’s fees and costs, which is never good. **Anne:** We’re going to take a break here for just a second. It’s so hard to find professionals who understand this type of abuse, emotional abuse, psychological abuse, and coercion. Many of you may have found an attorney that you feel good about, but they don’t get it. One option is to give them a copy of my book, *Trauma Mama Husband Drama*. It has infographics in the back. It helps professionals and other people understand this type of abuse in a really quick way, because it’s a picture book, and they’re way more likely to read a picture book. *[Trauma Mama Husband Drama](https://amzn.to/4gANiT6 "Trauma Mama Husband Drama")* is a quick, awesome read that will help bring them up to speed. There are infographics at the back. If you click on *Trauma Mama Husband Drama*, it’ll send you to Amazon. Put that in your cart. And then once you’ve received it, please circle back to Amazon, give it a five star rating. Every rating on Amazon helps isolated women find us. Even if they don’t purchase the book, they may become aware, through that review. And through the things you said on Amazon of this podcast, that’s free to everyone. ## Divorcing An Abusive Husband: Overwhelm & Taking Small Steps **Anne:** One of the things I’ve seen with victims is they get so overwhelmed. They’re overwhelmed with, what am I going to do for money, with childcare, and because their abuser is still manipulating them and confused. And also, they’ve got other people in their life saying, you need to forgive him. Why are you doing this? They just feel so overwhelmed. That even considering some of these legal issues, even calling several different attorneys to set up appointments for consultations to see which attorney would be good, is really hard for a victim. What questions should they ask when they have the strength to start calling around to find an attorney that’s going to work for them? Do you have any tips on that? **Wendy:** Yes, all of us get overwhelmed at various points during our lives for different reasons. And I’ve found myself in places of overwhelm. There are times when I feel like I can’t talk or make a move, overwhelm just paralyzes me. And what I have found to help me when I’m overwhelmed is to stop and think about, okay, what is my goal? Short term and long term goals, what needs to be done in this situation? And then, I chart out a few steps towards that goal. Then I take one step in the direction of that goal. It could be picking up the phone. It doesn’t necessarily have to be an attorney. But it could be to a friend or family member who’s going to help you feel brave. Make the call to the attorney eventually, tomorrow or next week, but take one step. ## Arrangements With Attorneys **Wendy:** All these little steps will add up. If you can commit to taking a step every day or a couple of steps every day. So that’s what helps me with overwhelm, is just breaking it down and taking a step. And not worrying about other steps that need to be taken. Or thinking if I don’t take this step, then this is going to happen, then this, and then this is going to happen, and it’s all going to crumble. Don’t think about that. Just think about the step in front of you. As far as getting an attorney when you’re divorcing an abusive husband, referrals are a great source. And oftentimes my clients come to me because a friend referred them, or a family member, or by somebody down the line who used me in the past. So if you feel comfortable, talk to other people, ask people in the community. And if you don’t want people to know that you’re asking for yourself, have somebody ask for you. Get an attorney who understands abuse and narcissism. There are many attorneys in the world, and there are many who advertise about abuse, but that doesn’t mean they know about it. So I would talk to them about cases they’ve had in the past, whether they’ve handled cases where there’s no physical abuse, or whether they’ve dealt with narcissists before. So ask them the right questions. Come up with the questions before you meet with the attorney. You should also understand the financial arrangement with the attorney. Because many people aren’t clear on that, and they run out of money quickly, and they don’t know what happened. Then they’re left without an attorney at a critical part of the proceeding. ## Balancing Conflict & Advocacy **Wendy:** So you need to expect what the finances will look like, how long the case could potentially last, and how much money it could potentially cost, so you’re prepared. People have to get quiet and centered and feel what kind of person the attorney is. There are many attorneys out there who generate conflict because it means they’re going to make more money. The more conflict, the more attorney fees there are, and the longer the case will last. Not all attorneys are that way. And I’m not saying you want an attorney who’s just going to lay down and be a rug. You want an attorney who’s going to fight for you, but not an attorney who’s going to intentionally stir the pot. And jack up the fees, create more conflict, and make you look bad in front of the judge because they are creating conflict. So again, it’s a balance between the attorney who will fight for you, but one who is mindful of resources, which are almost always limited. Just really feel whether that person is a match for you. There are people who come to me sometimes, and they say, I need a junkyard dog. I know right off, that’s not a match for me, because that’s not the kind of attorney I am. And it doesn’t mean I’m not assertive when I need to be, which is in the courtroom. And when I’m standing up for my client, but I’m just not a junkyard dog. I’m not hostile or aggressive. There are some people who want that. If you want and need that, and you go to an attorney, who’s not that. Your relationship will not go smoothly. ## Divorcing An Abusive Husband: Be Patient **Wendy:** I can tell you that from experience. So get clear on who you want from a personal quality and value standpoint, and look for that attorney. That attorney is out there and be patient. Don’t be afraid to interview more than one attorney. You don’t have to go with the first attorney you interview. **Anne:** Thank you so much. Our listeners are super overwhelmed, but I want them to realize they need more education about this. So that they can avoid some of these long-term problems that many women in my community encounter when divorcing an abusive husband. Because they weren’t prepared, and you’re always going to run into problems that were unavoidable. So understanding the lay of the land with these legal issues is important. Thank you, Wendy, for being on today’s episode. **Wendy:** Thank you, Anne **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [If Marriage Is Hard Work, Watch For 5 Things](https://www.btr.org/marriage-is-hard-work/) **Published:** October 15, 2024 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Many people say marriage is hard. What if marriage is easy and you're facing abuse? **Content:** People often told me, “marriage is hard work”, when I tried to explain the confusion, fear, and emotional exhaustion I was experiencing in my marriage. I kept wondering: is every marriage really this way? I had nothing to compare it to. Especially when even couples who seemed happy said marriage is hard. If your marriage is hard work all the time, you may be dealing with something other than the “normal” hard work of marriage. Take our [free emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/) to find out. ## DOES THE HARD WORK OF MARRIAGE INVOLVE THESE 5 THINGS? If the hard work you’re talking about involves these 6 things, it’s likely there’s something else going on: ### 1. IS CONFUSION PART OF MARRIAGE IS HARD WORK? Confusion is often one of the first signs that what you’re experiencing is not just “normal” relationship stress. Of course, every marriage has its ups and downs and its misunderstandings, but confusion is usually not a through line in a normal marriage. What’s worse is that when women try to describe what’s happening to friends, family, or counselors, they might give us basic relationship advice, or even just healthy living advice, because they don’t see the overall patterns. ### 2. ARE YOU SEARCHING FOR EXPERT HELP OVER AND OVER AGAIN? If your marriage keeps sending you to another therapist, clergy member, recovery program, or another book, that is not necessarily a sign that you are failing. Women experiencing hidden emotional and psychological abuse often seek help because they are willing to learn, change, and work hard. The problem is that many professionals are not emotional abuse experts, so the help they offer may not address the real issue. Pay attention to who is doing all the hard work and who isn’t. ### 3. DO YOU NEED A “DIAGNOSIS” IF MARRIAGE IS HARD WORK? If your marriage is hard work and you’ve been searching for help, your search may have resulted in incorrect diagnosis after incorrect diagnosis of the problem. You may have been told your husband is an addict, or he has a personality disorder, or he’s struggling from his traumatic childhood. Maybe he has “anger management issues.” Those explanations can sound compassionate and believable, especially when women are desperate to understand what is happening so they can save their marriage. But does their husband’s “diagnosis and treatment” keep women in proximity to harmful behavior longer? ### 4. DOES THE HARD WORK OF MARRIAGE INVOLVE DESPAIR? The hard work of marriage might involve despair if it’s about your kids, or if it’s a shared despair because your husband has cancer or someone gets in an accident. But if it’s the type of despair that comes when you can’t seem to solve basic problems, like “Why can’t we communicate?” Or “Why is he always getting mad at me?” That’s something different. Despair sets in when they do everything that smart women do to resolve issues in their marriage, but the help they received led them down a path of thinking they were a part of the problem instead of correctly identifying their husband’s patterns as emotional and psychological abuse. ### 5. SHOULD I EDUCATE MY HUSBAND ABOUT BASIC HUMAN DECENCY? When women learn about emotional and psychological abuse, maybe from my [podcast](/podcast/), or somewhere else, they often think, *Maybe if I explain it clearly enough, he’ll finally understand. Maybe if I use the right words, send the right article, play the right podcast episode, or describe how much pain I’m in, he’ll stop.* But most women aren’t trying to teach their husbands some complicated, mysterious relationship concept. They’re trying to educate him on things he should already know by now: don’t lie, don’t manipulate, don’t intimidate, don’t blame your wife for your choices, don’t use her faith against her, don’t punish her for having feelings, don’t betray her, and then expect her to comfort you. #### Key Takeaways from this Interview: - [**The importance of telling the whole truth about his “recovery”** ](#emotional-abuse-vs-normal-conflict) - **[The good and bad news about knowing it’s emotional abuse](#emotional-abuse-education)** - **[The impact of a husband’s chronic patterns of deceit](#chronic-patterns-of-deceit-in-marriage)** - [**How professionals blame victims and disregard their emotional safety**](#how-to-recognize-victim-blaming) - **[Creating boundaries for emotional safety with him and others](#boundaries-for-emotional-safety)** ## TRANSCRIPT: IF MARRIAGE IS HARD WORK, LOOK AT THE PATTERNS **Anne:** Welcome to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, this is Anne. We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re going to call her Lynn. Welcome, Lynn. **Lynn:** Hi. Good to be here. **Anne:** Lynn was in one of my [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Q&A group sessions](/group/), and as she shared what she was going through, it reminded me a lot of my story. So Lynn, you ended up reading my book. What did you think of it? **Lynn:** I just wanna burst out and say, I loved your book. First of all, I loved the format because it painted the picture of patterns and how these patterns are really universal. While at the same time, instances are so specific and unique to each person. And I think that’s an element of what I experienced that kept me in the dark. Just thinking that all marriage is hard work. I was married to Chuck number one for 18 years and we have five children together. And Chuck number two and I have been married for five and a half years. I’ve been grappling with this. How on earth did I end up here? Because the specifics were so different. Zoom out a little bit. The patterns are the same. You illustrated that so beautifully in the book. **Anne:** Or horrifically. **Lynn:** Yes! Yes, horrifically. I couldn’t wait to get to the next section and watch it unfold. ## LEARNING ABOUT EMOTIONAL ABUSE FROM SURVIVOR’S STORIES **Lynn:** And every time I would get a little feeling inside of “Oh, but not me.” And yet, as the next part would unfold, it’d be like, “Oh, yes, me.” Layer after layer, each chapter, I would find again, oh, actually these patterns are the same. And it was so validating. One of the biggest things that I just kept feeling the whole time, and especially at the end, was, I want to get this book in the hands of everyone I know. And I want my church leaders to read it. I want my family to read it. I want other women who are in the dark or don’t know they’re in the dark. Because they are thinking marriage is hard work. That’s what I walked away feeling like. I think the book works so well, because it used a lot of symbolic teaching. And that allows so much depth and detail to be communicated in a simple way. But the horrific part is that it’s not a lovely experience. It’s abuse, which is vile. I’m also feeling empathy, because I feel like I know what that feels like. How painful and hurtful, because I’ve been there in my own story. **Anne:** You’ve heard my podcast. And you’ve been to [BTR Group Sessions](/group/), you’ve been in Q&As with me. Were you surprised about my story? I’ve never told all of it in one place. It’s just been in tiny parts, like here and there. **Lynn:** Yeah, actually I thought that I knew you. I’ve heard bits and pieces over the years, and you referenced sort of your past experience in the sexual addiction world. ## THE IMPORTANCE OF TELLING THE WHOLE STORY **Anne:** So you saw me back in the day when I was doing public speaking. That is crazy! **Lynn:** Yes, yes. I didn’t see you in person. **Anne:** But you saw me online. **Lynn:** Yes, I was involved in different groups and I had seen videos and I remember hearing, I think a podcast, like the church had a podcast back then. **Anne:** Yes, it was huge, that got millions of listens. **Lynn:** Wow. **Anne:** When I discovered what really happened, I contacted them and requested that they remove it and they did, which was great. **Lynn:** I had seen Chuck’s blog linked, and I remember seeing when it disappeared and going, huh. **Anne:** No, it’s just some people witnessed this with their own eyeballs. I thought it was a public total downfall, and it just felt so embarrassing. **Lynn:** My own experiences with this, and especially with my ex, I had my own assumptions. However, when you don’t know the full story, it’s mind blowing, and yet it’s not. Because I have my own Chuck. I’m like, of course. But at the same time, it was shocking. The depth, like the layers of the onion that were unpeeling, even towards the end of the book. And you look back to previous incidents from the beginning and detail out oh, this is more likely what was happening. It’s just man, the deception. And just thinking that marriage is hard work. ## WHEN YOUR HUSBAND “SOUNDS” AMAZING, BUT MARRIAGE IS HARD WORK **Anne:** My ex and I, when we were married, were on a really big podcast with our church, so if you heard that. You know, or at least maybe remember, have an inkling of how good he sounded. **Lynn:** Oh yeah. **Anne:** He got up in front of people and spoke and sounded amazing. When I’m writing it all out, it was like, what? To myself, it was like, I can’t believe this actually happened like this. But when you’re in it you really can’t tell. You can’t see what’s happening, because you’re taking one moment at a time, one day at a time, one week at a time, rather than the whole thing in view. If you know what patterns to look for, I hope I lay those out really well. Then you can start seeing them in real time. But if you’re not educated about it, how would you know? **Lynn:** Yeah, exactly. I would’ve said, oh, he was the model recovery example. I could see everyone going, oh, I wish my husbands were just like, you know? But why is my marriage is hard work? **Anne:** I’m guessing you were thinking, oh, if I just do this recovery stuff, then we’ll improve like them. Is that what you were thinking at the time? **Lynn:** For sure, yeah. At that time, I definitely was deeply involved in my own recovery work with specialists, group therapies, individual therapies, joint sessions and 12-Steps and all of that. **Anne:** So much stuff. **Lynn:** So much, when you look back. ## THE truth was that his “recovery” was not a success **Anne:** Well, and that’s why I started podcasting. So when I quit all that stuff, when I realized what was happening. I was like, I have to tell the rest of the story. That was the thing that kept coming to my mind. I was like, I have to tell the rest of this story. If I stop now, and people are like, where did she go and why aren’t they speaking anymore? And they don’t know the rest of the story. That is like leaving a lie that I didn’t know I was living hanging out there. People will think that all the couple therapy or addiction recovery worked for us. There’s a section of the book that I say, “I think therapists think it works because when a couple leaves them, they don’t know what happens next. They don’t know the rest of the story. And if it didn’t work, the couple is not gonna go back to that therapist because they think, “Oh, that therapist just wasn’t working for us, or that particular type of therapy wasn’t working for us.” And so it’s pretty rare that a therapist is like, “Oh, that was not a success story” after somebody leaves, because most people aren’t public about what happens to them. That was the part that I was like, we have to tell the rest of the story. And that’s what I hear every day at BTR, is the rest of the story. People like you who went through that. ## THE GOOD AND BAD NEWS ABOUT KNOWING IT’S ABUSE **Lynn:** There’s this misconception that because we didn’t continue that work, that is the reason why the marriage failed or things didn’t improve. If we had kept that or tried another therapist, even though we’d gone to several. At some point, I walked away. I did have an individual therapist. I’ll never forget one day talking about something and then reflecting to my therapist, saying, “My gosh, I sound like I’m an abused woman” or something. Like, why do I sound so crazy? I was judging myself for sounding this way. And she was like, “Yes, you do.” Like for good reason. I was feeling so lost, depressed, anxious, and it was like a weight. You think it would be the opposite. Like being told you’re an abusive relationship, but it was more like, oh, I was already feeling all the effects of the abuse, the pain and confusion, not knowing what’s causing the [feeling that something is off](https://www.btr.org/feel-off-meaning/) because my marriage is hard work. **Anne:** Especially if you’ve been to years and years of therapy and no one has told you this. It’s not good news, but it’s also not bad news. It’s this weird middle place because if someone tells you it’s abuse, that’s good. But the problem is if it’s in conjunction with your husband and you’re going to couple therapy or addiction recovery with him, then the next step would be, okay, It’s [emotional abuse](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/SaoAv1-bm28), it’s psychological abuse. So now let’s get you some help for your emotional and psychological abuse, which is also not going to go very well in general. The likelihood of someone identifying it as abuse and then him being like, well now I’m gonna change, is slim to none. ## MARRIAGE IS HARD WORK, THE WORKSHOP WAS A POWERFUL TOOL **Anne:** But I’ve interviewed so many women who go that route. They’re like, okay, now that I know what it is, now that I know it’s emotional and psychological abuse, now we can get him help for that. I just don’t think people understand the depth of the patterns of lying. Let’s talk about that for a minute. So the book is about intimate deception, it’s about lying. Did you expect it to take that hyper-focus on lying, and why lying itself is domestic abuse? And not that marriage is hard work. **Lynn:** Hmm, I have a mixed answer on that. I think that I have the benefit of having BTR in my life. It gives me the heads up where it wasn’t shocking. However, it wouldn’t have been how I imagined you were telling your story. I couldn’t help but connect the book to your [Clarity After Betrayal Workshop](/clarity/). The workshop was a powerful tool for me. I had been attending your groups because I knew I needed support from other women who got it. There was an email that talked about your workshop. And I thought, I’ll understand the lingo better and probably gel more with your groups if I do your workshop. And so I grabbed it. So glad, so glad I did. It took bits and pieces that I knew almost subconsciously, and cut past all that mental fog that happens when you’re in an abusive relationship. It spoke to me in a way that hit where I needed it. And it gave clarity so fast. Even before changing behavior, just feeling that in my body, that truth. Man, it made a difference. ## THIS IS WHAT I NEEDED to put the puzzle pieces in place **Lynn:** Like the anxiety lowered. It was like, whoosh, not like I don’t still have hard things, but I’m not exaggerating. When there’s truth that resonates with what my body was feeling. It was like, oh, my body could just breathe. And I didn’t need anyone outside of me to tell me, this is what is happening. Marriage is hard work when your husband is lying. **Anne:** With the workshop and maybe with the book too. I feel like this, and of course, I wrote the thing, so maybe that’s why I feel this way. It’s two pieces of the puzzle, but they fit perfectly together. And this is something you already knew. And so when you read it or watch the videos in the workshop, you’re like, this is it. This is what I’ve needed. And then at the same exact time, it’s so radically different than what anybody else says. In the book, I take women through the lies he’ll tell, and they’re really simple. Even stuff about his own childhood trauma or his shame, or anything like that. Literally no therapist on the planet, if he says that is gonna be like, that’s just a lie. You’re just lying. They’re never gonna say that. I’ve never heard a therapist say that. I’ve never experienced that. They’re all like, okay, tell me more about your shame. Instead of being like, “Oh, you’re still lying.” It’s like the light bulb, the aha moments are going off because it’s not like someone has said, he’s just lying about that before. **Lynn:** To be frank, that was my favorite part of the book. ## How Survivors’ stories VALIDATEd my experience **Lynn:** One of my biggest frustrations is that I have to be careful how I say this, because therapy has been a good thing and it’s also been very damaging. I’ve had more than one experience with different effects. I feel like I sound like a broken record, but I just keep saying the word validating to feel like all the things that I knew in my core that I wanted something outside of me to validate. There it was right there in the book, and it’s not just one person’s story, it’s bits of pieces of all these other stories woven in. It gave it strength. That element surprised me, because one woman’s story should be enough. At the same time, there is strength in numbers, and I felt that one woman’s story was powerful, and it didn’t need anything else to validate it because it was one story that anchored. It was throughout the whole book. Each of these bits and pieces of other women’s voices sprinkled throughout were just reminders that each one of these women also has a story. And each knows that marriage is hard work when there is abuse. **Anne:** Right, before I wrote the book, I re-listened to all the podcast interviews, which helped give me that overview of the patterns. But also over the years, the BTR team has helped over 8,000 women thrive after betrayal. This is the only thing we do, and we only focus on this, and because I’ve talked to so many women, those patterns are so clear. ## MARRIAGE IS HARD WORK IF THERE’s A CHRONIC PATTERN OF DECEIT **Anne:** Because they usually talk to me in an hour, they tell me the before what happened in the middle and then what happened later. And so that broad overview with so many people enabled me to see those patterns and teach those patterns. It’s disheartening to know that they can be so clear if you know what you’re looking for, but they aren’t clear if you can’t see it. Marriage can be hard work. All of us went through that where we couldn’t see it. With the current situation that you’re in and my focus on lies, has it helped you see the lies happening now with the process of your divorce? **Lynn:** Yes, hundred percent, yes. In fact, the phrase that kept coming to my mind was that there is a chronic pattern of deceit. When I’ve shared bits and pieces more recently with people close to me, it’s that reminder of how shocking it is when you speak it out loud and they’re like, “Whoa, wait, what?” But without even putting each of those stories out there, I always felt like the most harmful action was this chronic pattern of deceit. That’s it. I had a church leader a few months back that asked me, “Have you ever tried telling him exactly what you want? Because he’s just saying, ‘I just don’t know what she wants, I just want to save the marriage.’ “ Yes, I’ve done it in writing. Yes, I’ve bullet pointed, yes, I’ve done all the things. Well, maybe if you just dumb it down, keep it to five things or less, and just try that. Just almost for fun, let’s let you church leader see what this exercise looks like. ## HE lied to me because he KNEW IT WAS WRONG **Lynn:** I felt like maybe this will help him see and illustrate. Look, I can be really logical. I can say plainly and clearly what I need. And item number one is honesty. I want that. **Anne:** It’s so basic. **Lynn:** Yeah. **Anne:** You’re literally saying stuff a kindergartner should have learned. Of course, he knows this. Because if he didn’t know it was wrong, like if you wanna say, he doesn’t cheat on me, use pornography, gamble, or whatever the thing is you wanna say. Of course he knew it was wrong, otherwise he wouldn’t have lied about it. **Lynn:** Yes, exactly. **Anne:** Someone who doesn’t know it’s wrong doesn’t lie. So you don’t have to spell it out for them. If they lied about it, they already knew. And I’m not trying to throw all therapy under the bus by any means. I’m just saying having a therapist try to work with him to help him figure out oh, he just didn’t know this was wrong. That cannot be true. Because if it was, he never would’ve lied about it. He would’ve been like, oh yeah, I was out soliciting prostitutes the other night. I had a really good time. **Lynn:** Right, right. **Anne:** What? Oh, you think that’s wrong? Oh, I’m so sorry. I didn’t know that. I didn’t know that. Oh, we must have been raised differently, right? I mean, that’s what he would’ve said. He wouldn’t have lied about it. Marriage is hard work with a liar. ## his DECEIT IS THE MOST DAMAGING PART **Lynn:** Right, and that whole idea, which is illustrated in your book, was so empowering. I can laugh about it. It’s a horrific thing we’re talking about, and it’s so absurd. That’s where the laughter comes from, is the absurdity of how that dynamic plays out, and who gets involved with supporting that dynamic. That is what is so damaging in the different supports and therapies that aren’t supportive, because it’s just reinforcing this idea that marriage is hard work. That the lying and the deceit is not that big a deal. When it is THE big deal. It’s the biggest deal. It was consistently the thing that caused the most harm and damage. Because it literally was to my psyche, you are led to believe that you can’t even trust your own self and what you are experiencing, that’s pretty severe. That definitely had the biggest impact on me, of all the things I experienced and the different types of abuse I’ve experienced that is the most damaging and harmful, and so I appreciated that that was the emphasis in your book. **Anne:** The main pattern I saw in my story, which I lay out repeatedly, is how he would create a fight about nothing. I didn’t do anything wrong, but he would say I did something wrong so that he could stomp out of the house and do whatever he was doing at night that he didn’t want me to know about. Or he could lock himself in his office and use pornography, and say, “I just need space from you.” and make it my fault. So we’re going to therapy, and that’s the thing that’s really hard. You’re going for help, you’re trying to get help, and they’re like pulling you more into the dark. ## MARRIAGE IS HARD WORK, I WAS TOLD I WAS CAUSING HIS EPISODES **Anne:** It takes longer. Did you see anything like that after you read the book? You were like, that is what was happening? That thing that I thought we were always fighting about didn’t even exist. He just wanted to do this other thing that I never realized. The other part I wanna bring up is when he acted like nothing happened. So when marriage is hard work, that pattern is so fascinating to me, because you’ve been in a big fight and the next day you’re like, why is he acting like nothing happened? So you think, what is his problem? He is spending all his energy focused on acting like the thing we don’t know about didn’t happen? **Lynn:** Yes, I loved that part of the book because that was impactful for me. The fact that what I had been through with my first was so horrific, and there were some extreme situations that were unique. Towards the end, he was diagnosed with severe mental illness. It was alarming, and yet it made sense. And then that sort of became the focus and reason. Then we had this psychiatrist calling me in to meet and discuss his diagnosis and treatment, which was one of the most traumatizing events. Because I thought, I’m going to go in here as his wife. I’m gonna learn more about the illness. We’ll learn how to handle this together. Of course, the first thing I did was join every support group for spouses of people with this illness. And instead, I was told I needed to share a bed with him, that I was causing him to have episodes. ## FEELING HORRIFIED by professional advice **Lynn:** And that despite what he’d done to me in our bed, and telling me that he couldn’t keep himself from doing that, but he says he’s not gonna do it again. And you are destroying my work with him and my treatment for him. **Anne:** Oh. Wow! **Lynn:** I walked out of that office feeling horrified and shaking. But just knowing this is not right. I don’t know what’s right, but it’s not this. Later, he worked with another psychiatrist and told me, he said, “I wanna go back and make things right. I wanna get better treatment. I want your help. However, I lied about you so much to my first psychiatrist that there’s no way I’ll get good help. He really believes you’re the problem and there’s no way I can undo everything that I’ve done. So I need to start fresh with a new psychiatrist.” **Anne:** Wait, was that a lie because then maybe the old one maybe was onto him a little bit and he wanted a new one. **Lynn:** Honestly, that definitely has crossed my mind. There are so many layers. He did start with a new psychiatrist and had me go in with him fresh the first time. And this psychiatrist told me, this is great. Actually, with this illness, that’s one of the best scenarios we could have that there’s an invested family member who really cares. Because often they can’t convey a perspective outside of their limited view that marriage is hard work. ## I get to decide what makes me feel safe, not my husband **Lynn:** Man, it got so messy. After maybe three or four marriage therapists, including two sex addiction specialists. At this point, I don’t think this therapist was perfect, and there were certainly many things he did not understand. He did key in on emotional safety needs to be here first, period. And telling my husband, “You don’t get to decide what her safety is. She decides.” And my husband was dumbfounded by that and angry at first. She doesn’t feel safe, something’s wrong with her. And having to be told no, she gets to decide what makes her feel safe. So couples therapy under that premise is not appropriate right now. When you’re trying to decide if you want to [stay together after infidelity](/should-couples-stay-together-after-infidelity/). Safety is in place first. And both of you need to feel that way. So she’s not feeling that way. It doesn’t matter how ready you believe you are. **Anne:** Right. **Lynn:** And so that led to me taking enough space and distance. And what happened when he started with that new psychiatrist, I was able to give some feedback. And they made some medication changes, and they definitely had an impact. It was, wow, I’m seeing a glimmer of who I thought I married. What’s so complicated was it wasn’t just a mental illness. I was trying to figure that out still. I had been so deeply entrenched in the sex addiction recovery world that it was like they were merging. And I was like, well, there’s this overlap. And it’s sort of abusive behavior, but that’s just an addict brain. Oh, actually also sometimes it’s mental illness. ## MARRIAGE IS HARD WORK, if he’s using fear to control you **Lynn:** Well, mental illness made him act out in these sexual ways. Now there’s this new framework to blame for the behavior. And in the background throughout the marriage, there were physical incidents. I didn’t recognize them, because in my mind, he wasn’t punching me. I didn’t have marks. I’ll never forget the first time an incident happened in our marriage, I thought marriage is hard work, but this is something else. He slammed me against the wall with his hands on either side of my head, terrified. And it was almost like everything around was blurry. I just see him in my face screaming, and I couldn’t even hear what he was saying. It was almost like an out-of-body experience. I just remember thinking, is this abuse? I don’t think this is abuse. Maybe it is, is it gonna get worse? When do I ask for help? I can’t imagine my father ever doing anything like this. Do women experience things like this? This whole flood of thoughts and questions, it wrapped up in this bubble of fear. It set the tone for other incidents. When you talked about the punching holes, exactly how you described that. That was so perfect. I experienced that exact thing, and my husband was also an attorney. We moved a lot from apartment to apartment, and different condos, townhouses and whatnot. And every single place we lived he punched a hole in a wall or in a door or something and some sort of damage. And it would stay there like this ominous reminder. **Anne:** A reminder, a threat, **Lynn:** Stay in line, **Anne:** Yeah. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## My husband knew what he was doing **Lynn:** Until we moved, and then, the day before we’re moving, he’s patching it up and everything’s fine now, and then the next place we go sure enough. **Anne:** That example is interesting, because it shows how in control he was, as opposed to a mental illness. I’m not saying he didn’t have a mental illness. What I’m saying is if his mental illness caused the hole punching. Wouldn’t there be a ton of holes? Like why that one hole? And then he left it there the whole time and patched it before you moved. Then the same pattern right when you moved in, there’s a hole in the wall, that’s the threat. And then no more holes until you move. And then he patches it up. Why isn’t he punching holes in the wall at his work, at church, at Walmart? **Lynn:** Exactly. **Anne:** The other thing about mental illness is that doesn’t explain the lying. **Lynn:** Yes. **Anne:** You can have someone who’s schizophrenic, who genuinely tells the truth. Maybe they’re seeing things, but they’re not going to be lying to make themselves look better. They’re like, “Oh my word, this person’s talking to me.” It’s not gonna be a controlled narrative that makes them look better to other people. It’s going to be specific stories about what they’re experiencing, and they’re gonna sound crazy. **Lynn:** Yeah. **Anne:** Because they’re mentally ill. These guys don’t sound crazy. ## he used his DIAGNOSIS TO MANIPULATE me **Lynn:** I love how you can see right through it and hit right to the point. It took me so much time to come to that understanding and circle it back around to the book. I think that’s where a tool like this would’ve been monumental. It would’ve been helpful for me. Eventually, I did get there, but it would’ve been a really powerful tool for me just because I eventually came to those truths that you so quickly pointed out just instantly right now. That point of the story where it was like he had a high stress job, he was a litigator, he would be in trials for weeks somewhere. Why wasn’t this happening in a hotel room or in the office, or any of these other places, when marriage is hard work? **Anne:** Yeah, why wasn’t he running out into the hallway saying, “I’m hearing things, there’s somebody in my room.” That would be the manifestation of a mental illness. Many of the women I’ve talked to, and maybe you feel this way. Once they realize, wait a minute, and they reprocess it. They’re like, I don’t even think he was ever mentally ill. He just rode that train as long as he could, and used it to exploit me and do all this stuff. And they’re in shock that a therapist didn’t recognize that the diagnosis itself was used to manipulate her. And that it wasn’t like, I don’t wanna say real, ’cause I don’t really know, but these women are saying he wasn’t mentally ill. I interviewed A. S. King, who said he did this for years, and later she said something about him being mentally ill, and he said, “I’m not mentally ill, I’ve never been mentally ill.” ## MARRIAGE IS HARD WORK, when he reframes the stories **Lynn:** I have had a roller coaster with that. While he worked with that psychiatrist. We ended up getting in a horrible car accident, our whole family. They had to split us to different hospitals, because we had a large family and had to go to the trauma unit. **Anne:** That sounds horrible. I’m so sorry. **Lynn:** It was funny, it was traumatizing, and I felt like all the trauma work I had done with sex addiction therapy. I was like, I’m prepared for this. I have those tools because marriage is hard work with an addict. All the addict behaviors are going on still, and I’m feeling crazy. But the mental illness thing, there are so many times where I questioned, and I felt like he’s totally bluffing me. Like he’s totally using this. And there are times when he can’t control it, but it’s pretty obvious when he can’t control it. And there are so many times it’s a front. To your point about how he would respond, man, that part is so confusing for me to this day, because like I said, we have been married 18 years. 16 years into it when this mental illness finally started being diagnosed. I just remember him getting treatment and coming home and saying to me, like, the voice has finally stopped. Like I’ve had voices since I was a kid. They’re finally quiet. And I was looking at him like, like you’ve never mentioned this to me ever. If you’re aware enough to talk about it and recognize that it was a voice, not you, why have you never said a word? And then he would take incidents that happened and reframe them. ## I created boundaries to protect my children from his rage **Lynn:** Like a night where I picked up a daughter from an activity, I left the other kid’s home with the baby. When I had left, I think the baby had a dirty diaper. And I came back and there was still a dirty diaper. I think it was my daughter who made a comment about this dirty diaper, And he became immediately enraged and started attacking me that I had somehow thrown him under the bus for not changing the diaper, and turned it into one of these types of arguments, and stormed off out the front door dramatically. And the kids are all shaken up, and it wasn’t a one-time incident. They would happen throughout the year. The whole therapy route was like, what did you say to anger him? How did you show disrespect? What was happening at the time? What led up to it that week? **Anne:** Just think about it. If he was an honest, good person? Wouldn’t he have said, you know what, I’m really concerned. I’m hearing these voices. I’m worried, I’m scared. When marriage is hard work, I’m overwhelmed. **Lynn:** That was the part that became so confusing. Exactly, yes. Towards the end of that, we had created these boundaries, and essentially, if this happens, you take off, you’re not to just come home in the night. And he came home in the middle of the night, slamming things around, screaming at me. And the next day nothing happened. ## I FELT SCARED FOR HIM TO COME HOME **Lynn:** I’m going to the church thing, and we’re going clean. And I just was like, “No, this is crazy. Something big happened. I can’t pretend like that was normal, I’m done. We can’t keep doing that.” I didn’t know what I was going to do, but not that. And he took off in a rage again. I’m sitting there at home, eventually I put my kids to bed that night, and the texting starts and he’s gonna come home. Darn it, I can’t keep him from his home. Even though we agreed on the boundary. He was coming home, and I just felt scared. I didn’t know what he was going to do, but I didn’t trust him. I just felt like, get out now. That’s all I knew. And pulled my kids out of bed, packed a little overnight bag, and drove off to my parents about an hour and a half away in the night. And I never returned. I didn’t know that I was not returning, I thought, I don’t know what’s wrong. I don’t know what is going on with him, but I can’t do that. And it took me eight months to say, okay, divorce, I lived in this limbo of, it’s the mental illness. If just gets that under control, if he just gets this under control. If it’s an illness and I’m just abandoning him. I need to support him in his illness. I just grappled with all that confusion, and because I didn’t have BTR at that point. The closest thing I had was to call the domestic violence hotline. I’m trying to explain to him how I have a question about this one thing, and it’s not an abuse problem because X, Y, Z. ## MARRIAGE IS HARD WORK, IT’S STILL ABUSE IF HE IS MENTALLY ILL **Lynn:** The big thing being, he has mental illness, and then trying to explain to me it doesn’t matter what the reason is, what’s happening is still real. It’s still abuse, and that’s what you need to focus on. That marriage is hard work when you are married to an abuser. He may be [denying his abuse](/when-an-abuser-denies-his-abuse/). **Anne:** Which is the crazy part about the therapists. So say he has a mental illness, and you’re like, yes, he has a mental illness. Okay, that doesn’t make it not abuse. The things they say to you need to be like, okay, he has a mental illness and you’re being abused. So if he’s gonna get treatment, he needs to come in on his own, or it’s not gonna work. [You need to say no](/how-to-say-no/) to abuse. So I need you to not call me ever again or see me ever again. And we’ll see if he comes back, and good luck to you. Maybe go to the domestic violence shelter. That’s what they should say. Or read this book or listen to Anne’s podcast or something like that. They don’t say it. They explain all the reasons why his behavior is happening, without saying what is happening. It’s that he’s emotionally and psychologically abusive. And if he wants to get help for these things, he will need to come on his own by himself. And you should not be involved in any way, shape, or form, because you are his victim, and that is not ethical. I went through seven years. I had several therapists, you went through multiple therapists. And they don’t say this. That’s the thing that is like crazy pants to me. One call to Domestic Violence Services, and they’re like, nope, this is abuse. ## I CALLED THE DOMESTIC VIOLENCE HOTLINE **Anne:** The difference in what they tell you to do and how to move forward is like night and day. And to the abuse specialists, like me now, as opposed to the Addiction Recovery specialists, like I was at one point. The thing to say is like completely different, and it should be consistent across both, and it should be from that domestic abuse standpoint for everyone, including [teenagers trying to avoid abuse](https://www.btr.org/teen-dating-violence/). But unfortunately, the therapists aren’t trained that way. They’re trained to help him with his mental illness. They’re not trained to help a victim of abuse or his victim of abuse. If he’s going to get help with his mental illness, it’s a conflict of interest to treat him for that, and also his victim of abuse at the same time. Not because marriage is hard work. **Lynn:** A hundred percent. And that brings me back to both your book and your workshop. Because when I think about that experience, the first time I called the domestic violence hotline. It was so jarring. It connects to that image of the light. Where it’s blinding and gives you a headache, and it’s disorienting and you’re seeing spots for a minute. Like you can’t really even see, that’s how it felt at first. Like whoa, what is happening? **Anne:** Especially when you’re contrasting that to the fact that you’ve been going to therapy for years and they’ve never said it. You’ve had the experience of going to therapy, and they’ve been talking about it a certain way and approaching it a certain way. And then talk to a domestic abuse specialist, and it’s so drastically different, that’s why it’s so jarring. ‘Cause you’re like, why is this the first time I hear about this? ## NOT GOING BACK AFTER YEARS OF SEEKING HELP **Anne:** When I’ve been trying to get help 10 years, for 15 years? **Lynn:** Yes. That just sums it up perfectly. And it’s interesting. It took me a little bit to get on board, because it was so jarring, because it was so disorienting, just thinking marriage is hard work. **Anne:** Yeah. **Lynn:** Which of course once you adjust, you can see so much more clearly. And it’s a warm, safe and comfortable place. It wasn’t that it was bad. At first it felt like, oh my gosh, this is bad. And I was a little afraid. Once I adjusted, it was like, oh my gosh, this is so much better. I cannot go back into that cave now. Now there is no way in heck anyone could bribe me with anything in the world to go back in that cave. I don’t know what I’m gonna do out here in the light, but I’m not going back in that cave. I sat in that place for a while until I eventually got to my next steps and moved forward. These stories need to be told. And I’m so glad you found a way to tell it. There’s no way someone could capture those symbolic elements that you expressed without having firsthand knowledge of having walked through the trenches yourself. And I appreciate that you found a way to share your story, because I had bits and pieces that I gleaned through podcasts and other elements. There’s something powerful about a story. There were definitely parts where I was literally grinning, definitely chuckled a few times. Especially the way you wrote about your experiences and having been married to an attorney with many similar behaviors, like some of it was word for word. ## MARRIAGE IS HARD WORK, WHEN THE TRUTH IS HARD TO BELIEVE **Lynn:** The way that, especially the communications post divorce, just had me laughing how specific. **Anne:** There’s one part that a lot of people have told me. They laughed out loud. It was where scripture was like, and he was sore in his loins, but his wife had to work late. **Lynn:** Sorry. **Anne:** So then God was like, yes, you must spread your sperm somewhere. And so adultery is good in this case. Like little things like that. **Lynn:** Yeah, sorry I didn’t mean to laugh over you. Yes, sometimes I say sarcasm is my love language, so that struck a chord with me for sure. Little bits of that sprinkled throughout, it’s so important, I think, as part of this journey. The absurdity of what we experience, the chronic pattern of deceit, the depth of lies that no one could possibly understand unless they’ve lived it. You have to laugh to keep your own sanity, because it’s so mind blowing. Marriage is hard work with an abuser. **Anne:** There’s this part in *Stranger Things*, I think it’s in season three, where they go to see that guy that speaks Russian, and they tell him what is going on. And he’s like, “Okay, I believe you, but that’s too much. We are gonna need to dumb this down.” And then when they go to the news, they say it was a chemical leak, not the upside down and a monster. And I cut out so much from the book that I kind of felt that way at times. Sometimes people accuse us of over exaggerating, but if we’re doing anything, we’re under exaggerating. They wouldn’t believe us if we told every detail. Like the guy in *Stranger Things*. ## VICTIMS OFTEN UNDER EXAGGERATE ABOUT THE ABUSE **Anne:** So we automatically, through years of being victim blamed, through years of people wondering what our part was. We naturally did that anyway, because it seems more believable. But I just want anyone listening to know that if anything, you’ve been under exaggerating, not the other way around. So if people are like, you’re exaggerating, you don’t have to say, no, I’m not. But you can think in your mind, if anything, it’s way worse than what I’m describing. I think that hopefully helps women feel better if they’ve ever been accused of exaggerating. Or thinking marriage is hard work. **Lynn:** I think what’s really interesting for me right now, especially as I read your book. I think I talked more about my previous relationship, which, like I said, had some extreme behaviors. And like you also said, I didn’t even scratch the surface on all that I experienced with him. But it is the second relationship, which was so much harder to catch the patterns, and these resources have been a lifeline. He is the good guy. He is the calm guy. The pattern of deceit is so deep, so chronic, and I thought I had found my safe guy and the good guy. And yet, I have experienced the most horrendous psychological abuse I have ever experienced in my life. It was resulting in physical problems that I couldn’t figure out. And I’ve gone to different doctors and specialists. Because of what I went through, he had the perfect finger to point. You’re just traumatized from your past, and that really stifled me. **Anne:** I think I even say that in my book. That’s also a lie. ## STRUGGLING WITH FAITH BECAUSE OF EMOTIONAL ABUSE **Lynn:** Yes, that was a part of your book that spoke to my core. Because it has been a big piece of my feeling trapped, feeling crazy, feeling completely buried. The tools that I was able to anchor to through BTR, through your [workshop](https://www.btr.org/clarity/), through your [groups](/group/), and reinforcing things by listening to your [podcast](/podcast/) and through your [book](/books/), gave me so much strength, so much clarity. It’s not like any of this made me choose divorce. In fact, it didn’t at all. What it made me choose was prioritizing my mental, emotional, spiritual, psychological, physical safety. And in turn, my children, because this all affected them, and prioritizing that has resulted in this marriage ending. I don’t think it had to. I think any woman can choose to be strong and healthy and have a good marriage.. It seems like I was getting outside messages telling me, to stay married, you must sacrifice all these things. I don’t believe that’s true. **Anne:** That’s essentially saying you have to tolerate abuse in order to stay married. **Lynn:** Exactly, that’s exactly how I feel. I have struggled with my faith because of what I’ve been through. It has really shaken me. I’ve bounced back and forth with feeling like I need to step away, and also feeling like this is actually something I treasure personally. I’ve received great strength from my faith. Even when I felt more unsure, I didn’t want to feel like that was pushed out and that I couldn’t have that. I wanted to decide and feel like I can know for myself whether I want this or not. ## THOSE WHO HAVE TWISTED THINGS IN MY FAITH, MARRIAGE IS HARD WORK **Lynn:** My personal experience with that part of your book was really positive, because that’s the path I felt like I’ve journeyed. I’m trying to just re-navigate what that looks like within this space of healing and acknowledging the abuse, rather than just marriage is hard work. Acknowledging how people mishandled things within that context of my religion. I work with different faith leaders. And even the spiritual abuse from my husband and how he twisted things. That part is so confusing. What I liked about your book is that element is there. It felt like you could take it or leave it if you wanted. It’s just a part of your story. But it also helped me connect my feelings with that faith and even part of that worship. Knowing that not everyone who shares those things near and dear to me sees it the same way as those who had twisted those things. That’s a distortion. It’s not necessarily what Christ wants us to get out of that message. **Anne:** It’s fine with me wherever anyone lands, if they decide, hey, you know what, I have to step away from my faith, or I’m not gonna practice anymore, or whatever, anything is good. I happen to choose my faith still. And I put all the reasons for that in my book, with all my ways of interpreting things that have helped me maintain my faith through all this. I wanna be in this middle spot where I don’t push anybody in any direction. If somebody wants to keep their faith, they can keep it if they don’t want to, nothing that I say will be spiritual abuse where I’m trying to coerce them to stay faithful or something. ## THE BOOK HELPED ME REFRAME **Anne:** I wanna be very neutral on that front, while also sharing my own experience. And how I processed all of it and how I continue to process it with everyone already thinking usually marriage is hard work. **Lynn:** Yeah, exactly. That part of the book was perfect for me, because it helped me reframe, helped me take back what I wanted from my faith. **Anne:** Well, Lynn, thank you so much for sharing part of your story. Thank you for reading my book. Thank you for relating how you felt about it. I’m so grateful that you’re part of our community. Because it’s women like you that enable me to continue to do this job. Without clients, I wouldn’t be here still. So thank you so much. I’m so grateful that you found my stuff and that it was useful to you. **Lynn:** Me too, thanks Anne. **Anne:** Thank you. ![My Marriage is Hard Work](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/My-Marriage-Is-Hard-Work.webp "My Marriage is Hard Work")Hidden Emotional Abuse Leaves No Scars **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Surviving Narcissistic Abuse - Diane's Story](https://www.btr.org/surviving-narcissistic-abuse/) **Published:** August 6, 2024 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Learning how to survive narcissistic abuse can help victims find safety and begin healing. **Content:** As Diane shares her devastating story of surviving narcissistic abuse. She empowers women to become educated about abuse and trauma and start seeking safety. If you need support check out our [Group Support Schedule.](https://www.btr.org/group/ "Group Support Schedule.") > He just became increasingly mean to me, to the point where I thought something was seriously wrong with me. I started going to a therapist because I thought, ‘What is wrong with me? I am nothing.’ Every day, he found something wrong with me. He would tell me how horrible I was, just horrible things. > > *Diane, victim of narcissistic abuse* ![Surviving Narcissistic Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Surviving-Narcissistic-Abuse.webp "Surviving Narcissistic Abuse")## Transcript: Surviving Narcissistic Abuse **Anne:** I randomly met an old friend from college. I was so excited to see her. And I learned that she had been surviving narcissistic abuse, the same thing that all of us who listen to this podcast have been through. I’m going to call her Diane. I said, don’t tell me anything, come on the podcast. So I have not heard the whole story yet. Welcome Diane. **Diane:** Thank you. I’m so happy to be here with you. ## Diane’s College Years & First Marriage **Anne:** So in college, you had a one-year-old daughter. And you married, and then you divorced. **Diane:** Yes, well, she’s 23 now. Yeah, right after I graduated from college, I had another child, and then we divorced. ![How to Survive Narcissistic Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Screenshot-2024-09-04-at-102657%20AM.png "Can I Survive Narcissistic Abuse")**Anne:** And when you divorced, you didn’t know why the divorce was happening. And then, because you didn’t understand who he really was. You ended up remarrying him. **Diane:** I remarried him because he returned to me, and then we were together for another 17 years. And in the last two years, I found everything. So for that entire 17 year period, he was a sex addict, and he had multiple things going on. ## Surviving Narcissistic Abuse With First Divorce **Anne:** Let’s talk about the first divorce. What did you think was the cause? **Diane:** What’s so hard about all this is, I thought it was me. And for so many years, I thought it was me and needed to be better, and I wasn’t enough and was always trying. And now going through all the things, that’s why I saw you and I was like, I’m so happy. I wish I had found your podcasts and your website a year ago, because it’s been this journey of hardship for a long time just surviving [narcissistic husband.](/narcissistic-husband/ "narcissistic husband.") But that first time he actually had an affair, but I didn’t know that, so I just thought it was me. And so then when he came back to me, I was like, “Oh I’m changed, I’m better”. I’m good. ![A Little Know Red Flag that Reveals a Narcissist](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/gvxpK9yloco/maxresdefault.jpg) **Anne:** So he says I’m leaving you. I’m just not happy in this marriage. You’re not good enough, and he takes off. Meanwhile, he lies to you, manipulates you and abuses you. Because the things he’s telling you aren’t true. And he’s putting you down on purpose to hide his own stuff. You don’t know any of this. Two years after the divorce, he returns and says I messed up. You are amazing. ## Remarriage & Continued Struggles Surviving Narcissistic Abuse **Diane:** And honestly, now I look at it and it was like love bombing. Totally like I love you, you’re the best thing that ever happened to me. I want to be a good dad to our kids. And so of course I was like, yes, I want to save my family. I want him to be the dad, he can be in my kids lives. So I thought, Oh yes, he’s changed. I’ve changed. We’ve grown up a little bit. So then we got back together, and we had two more kids. Throughout this time, it was always that word line of, I need to be better. If I was thinner, if I’m cleaner, then he’ll be happy. And so I look at it now, and I’m like, what was wrong with me? ![Narcissistic Abuse Can I Survive](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Screenshot-2024-09-04-at-110801%20AM.png "Narcissistic Abuse Will I Survive")But I was in this cycle of trying to make him happy, while giving more and more. And taking less and less from him. **Anne:** So not knowing the details of your story. There’s the abuse that everybody recognizes as abuse, physical violence. And then there’s the abuse hidden: the narcissistic abuse, lying. Was it [covert narcissist traits,](/covert-narcissist-traits/) physical violence? What types of abuse were showing up? ## Surviving Narcissistic Abuse & Realizing The Truth **Diane:** He was never physically abusive to me. But he would get in my face and make me feel like, why is the house so messy? Belittle me in front of our kids, and I look at it now, and I’m like, how did I not know? It’s crazy to me. **Anne:** Well, you didn’t know because he was lying to you and hiding everything. You were resisting abuse the entire time. Doing everything you could to try and resolve it. Surviving narcissistic abuse is no small feat. You’re crazy smart. **Diane:** Well, I would think so, right? I have two master’s degrees. I should be smart enough to see this, but you don’t. And that’s one thing I really, whenever I talk to people, I’m like, you don’t realize because they’re master manipulators. He makes the world fit his needs. And I was totally okay with that. I just went along with it. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## The Second Divorce **Diane:** My ex is military, we had moved to a new duty station. And, I thought, oh good, this is our starting over, we’re gonna renew, we’re gonna be a better family. And at that point he started dating somebody else. So he just became increasingly mean to me to the point where I thought something was seriously wrong with me. I started going to a therapist at that point, because I’m like what is wrong with me? I am nothing, and every day he found something wrong with me. He would tell me how horrible I was, just horrible things. And it wasn’t until my daughter, who the daughter we talked about, she looked at me and she said, “Mom, is Dad having an affair?” Then I started looking and then that’s when I found out. When I first found out, he told me it was an emotional affair because I looked at the text messages and I found text messages. So he told me there was nothing physical. So then I thought, okay, well, I’m going to be better. I’m going to love him better. And then about a month later, I found he had been using a different app. There was a text from the girl who said, “I haven’t woken up next to you. I can’t wait till we do it again.” ## Narcissism & Trauma **Anne:** How did you find out about the additional abuse and betrayal from the whole 17 years? You are [not alone in finding out you’ve been betrayed](https://www.btr.org/betrayed-you-are-not-alone/ "not alone in finding out you've been betrayed"). Did it just start coming out, or was it something that you started piecing together, that you had been surviving narcissistic abuse? **Diane:** Both actually. I just became super detective, like looking through emails, looking through everything. And I started to see this pattern of things where he’s been on these sites. But I had never believed that was happening, I guess. And then I found that he’d been on dating sites. He’s military. So every time he was away from me, he was dating, he was sleeping with other people. So I confronted him. And then the world fell apart. Because he was going to be better, he was going to love me, blah, blah, blah. I fell apart for a while. At one point, he was for lack of a better term, verbal diarrhea, everything. I still think there’s probably stuff I don’t know, which I’m good not knowing. But definitely from their first divorce until this divorce, he had been with multiple partners, multiple people. Doing whatever he wanted to do. When you said “I fell apart.” What did you mean by that? I’ll tell you what I did. I sat on the couch. And I ate buckets of popcorn. I watched a ton of Netflix. I watched every episode of every season of the good wife. Which, by the way, is the perfect show to watch when you’re going through this. Also, I gained weight. What did your falling apart look like? ## The Impact Of Trauma **Diane:** Actually, I went the other way. I did not eat for probably four months. Like I lost 30 pounds. I again internalized that it was me. That abuse had been such a cycle. I’m not enough, so I’ll be better. I’ll show him how much better I am. I’ll show him that I’m better than anybody else, he would choose kind of thing. On top of all this. So there’s one extra component there. I found out my mom had a brain tumor three days after I found out the full affair he’d been having this time. My whole world exploded. I could not sleep. And couldn’t eat. I would just be like, Oh, I need to do this better. And I need to do that better. I did not read a book for like six months. And for me, that was crazy. You know, I’d get two sentences and it’s a cycle again. And so, it was hard. **Anne:** That’s not crazy. There is this myth that [marriage is supposed to be hard,](/marriage-is-hard-work/ "marriage is supposed to be hard,") and I just don’t think that true. That’s totally normal. Diane and I graduated in English teaching. We’re both readers and writers, and the same thing happened to me. I could not read for a long time. I’d try, but I just couldn’t do it. I was like, if anyone is like me. They’re not going to be able to read articles I write when they are surviving narcissistic abuse. But they can listen. So that’s why I started a podcast. **Diane:** You’re so brilliant. That was exactly what is necessary. **Anne:** So yeah, you’re losing weight, you can’t read. What happened with your mom? ## Surviving Narcissistic Abuse After Mom Died **Diane:** So my mom actually passed away. So this all came out March 3rd, and my mom died May 2nd. It was just trauma on trauma on trauma. This is my least favorite story to tell. I have to tell you. So my ex was careful. He didn’t want anyone to know about what he’d been doing. One of the reasons is he’s military, but he was also very manipulative. If you go through narcissistic betrayals, he obviously wanted everyone to believe how good he was, who he was. So he came to my mom’s funeral and acted all the part, loving and everything else. And then literally we buried my mom. It had been two hours. He came to my house. And asked if we could discuss the terms of our divorce. Okay. In front of my children, two hours after I buried my mom. That one was the icing on the cake. I was like, no. As much as I am hurt, this is my boundary. You need to leave. **Anne:** Oh, I’m so sorry. That is awful. All of that is awful. Time and time again, women come on the podcast and share their stories. They’re like nightmares, horrifying, like the jaws of hell were gaping after you. And it feels like there is just no way to [help wives or children of narcissists](https://www.btr.org/how-do-narcissists-treat-their-children-after-divorce/ "help wives or children of narcissists"). **Diane:** So, so much. That phrase came into my mind many times. **Anne:** Mine too. I just felt like hell was trying to swallow me whole. And I was just like holding on by like a piece of dental floss. **Diane:** So true. Any amount of just staying alive every single day, just making it through. **Anne:** I’m so sorry about your mom. I’m so sorry. ## Be Patient With Yourself **Diane:** I’ve said many times, the divorce was fine. Just losing my mom was so difficult at this time. If you lose your spouse, you know, you lose a marriage. Usually you have your mom to go to, or vice versa. You lose your mom. Usually you have somebody to depend on. And I kind of felt like everything was gone all in one. I’ve learned so much in this year. I tell people all the time, and people come to me and they’re like, everybody has a story. We all have these traumas, and I just say be patient with yourself. How many times I’m like, I just want to feel better. I want to be better today. Just be patient with yourself and be kind to yourself, because it’s going to take a while. **Anne:** Yes, of course, like take as much time as you need. We all need a rest, right? ## Realizations & Clarity **Anne:** When did you start realizing it wasn’t you? When did you start thinking? Wait a minute. He’s been an abuser the entire time. **Diane:** I think when I really did is when my mom was sick. So my mom, she had the brain tumor, but what happened is called carcino motor meningitis. She had cancerous meningitis. So she was fine on April 1st and she passed away May 2nd. So it was like four weeks really fast. And so I had come back home. I was trying to help. It was still about him. I’m going through this trauma and all of this, and he was still trying to protect his image. And at that point I was like, wait a second. Yeah, this isn’t me, you know, and it wasn’t about my kids losing their grandma. He had to protect himself from anybody thinking badly of him. And so that was my first indication, but it took me a long time to really just go, wait, I have worth. I’m okay with who I am. And he’s been trying to destroy me for so long, but I’m not going to lie. Even like some days I just still feel like. Wait, what’s wrong with me? And I’m like, wait, no, that’s manipulation. I need to stop and be okay. I’m okay. **Anne:** Yeah, how would you describe your clarity now after a year’s gone by? **Diane:** My ex is with his girlfriend that he left me for And I think about it. ## Manipulations Continue **Diane:** I’m like, I just want to grab her and be like listen, this is gonna happen. This is what he’s doing, he’s love bombing you. He’s gaslighting you. He’s gonna use you till there’s nothing left. And then I have to step back and be like, that’s my clarity. I can see that, but there’s no way she could see that. And she would just say, Oh, she’s some crazy ex wife trying to form me here. But I can see that for me and I can see it for my kids. And that’s what’s so hard, because he still does it to my kids. He manipulates them. And so I just have to step back and be like, they’ll have to realize it for themselves. That they are experiencing narcissistic abuse. But it still hurts. It still hurts. Like I can see it, it is clear. But there are still those elements that sometimes it still affects me and bugs me. But I’m happy that I am where I am now ## Effects On Children **Anne:** So your oldest daughter, she was the one that tipped you off and said maybe dad’s having an affair. How does she feel about it? **Diane:** We actually just moved out of state. She is also trying to escape the cycle, because she’s finally realized. But the reason she saw it is because she saw how changed he was. Because she’d grown up with this dad who was so genuinely interested in her, and then suddenly, she didn’t mean anything to him either. She wasn’t enough. And so he started to change on her. And so she wondered why, and now she’s not part of the supply because she doesn’t believe any of his lies anymore. So he is just mean to her. And so she wanted to escape where we were. That’s why she moved out of state. Cause she wants to be away. It’s totally affected her, because she questions her worth, but she knows she’s good, but she still loves her dad. And that’s what’s so hard is he’s still my children’s father and they want a dad. I mean, that’s the weird thing we’re working through right now too. **Anne:** What the kids mean to him is they make him look good. They make him look good at church. When he goes to the grocery store, everybody smiles and says, Oh, you must be such a good dad. When the kids don’t mean anything outside of himself, and they are surviving narcissistic abuse too. ## The Aftermath & Healing **Diane:** Exactly, that’s exactly right. My older kids can see that. So my eldest is 23 and then my next daughter is 20. And then I have a son who’s 16 and a daughter who’s 12. My 12 year old is still in it, but my older kids can see that. They kind of accepted that fate. So hard, I needed somebody who had been there. And that’s why I was like, I wish I had your site because I would have loved it. One thing that I tell people all the time is when you have trauma, it’s like breaking the glass. Those little pieces of glass go into every other memory. You’ll see a Coke can, and suddenly you have this trauma memory. So, understanding that the trauma we face is like PTSD. There are parts of us so broken. It’s not just like fixing this one little memory. There are so many memories. There are so many pieces of glass embedded somewhere else. You have to go through this. **Anne:** Yeah, that’s a really good example about the glass and how traumatized we feel. And I also wish that you would’ve found [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/) earlier. Cause then maybe we would have connected sooner. But at least we have each other now. ## The Importance Of Support Systems While Surviving Narcissistic Abuse **Anne:** Are you still teaching? **Diane:** I am teaching high school English, and then I actually did my MBA, so I also teach marketing. **Anne:** So of our graduating class, most of us got our masters. You got your MBA, and I think you also have your masters in education. I have an M.Ed., and now I’m obviously podcasting. Another one of our friends from college got her master’s, and now she’s a principal. The women in our class have done some amazing things. Our class was full of such strong women who’ve been such good examples to me. And you. Like I haven’t seen you for years, but I still feel like we connect and have the support system of women who care about me. It’s heartwarming. **Diane:** Yes, I agree. I felt the same way when I saw you. I was like, oh my heck, it was like no time had passed. I wasn’t crazy. I’m not the crazy one. I’m not the one who caused this. And you’ll understand. You’ve always impressed me with everything. Even when we were in school, you were such a go getter and so amazing and talented. And so, when I saw you, I’m like, this is your mission. You see such a need here, because there is, there’s so many of us just struggling. For the last year, I’ve searched for help in so many ways, and that you’ve assembled this. Is amazing to me, because we need it. ## Reflections On College **Anne:** Yeah, can you imagine back in college, if I was like, I’m going to create a lesson plan about, infidelity and abuse. Rather than Anne Frank. **Diane:** I know. Multicultural Studies. Yes. **Anne:** Thinking about that. If you could go back in time and you saw us at the library studying. And you could say anything to us. What would you say. **Diane:** I think the biggest thing would be to trust your instincts. Because lots of times I felt like something was off and I felt like it wasn’t me, but then I would trust his words. I would trust the way he treated me. I believed these lies, and I would believe that something was wrong with me. So I would say, trust yourself and you are so unique and wonderful. And honestly, you are worth everything. And so don’t let anyone ever take that away from you. Just trust yourself and know that you are powerful. Obviously, we didn’t think it was abuse, but have boundaries. Those are my two big things. Trust your instincts and have boundaries. ## The Empowerment & Strength Of Living through Narcissistic Abuse **Anne:** I love that you’re still teaching. and you can teach your students about what a mutual relationship is about. Consent, about truth, about misogyny. Of course I’m teaching in a different way now through podcasting. But education is so important so that every victim can be educated about narcissistic abuse, emotional abuse, and learn to set those boundaries. It’s not our fault that no one taught us. Both of us were resisting abuse the entire time. You were resisting it because you thought it was you, and you did everything you could to stop it. That is resisting abuse. So you’re incredible, strong, and powerful. This is what I talk about in [The Living Free Workshop.](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/ "The Living Free Workshop.") **Diane:** I love that, exactly right. Your example of doing this is so powerful too, because it makes me go, I can do this. And so just the next person that we can talk to, that we can help, it just makes us that much stronger. **Anne:** You’re awesome. Diane, I admired you back then. You were going through college with a young daughter and you were brave and incredible. And here we are 20 years later. So when you get back in town, let’s go have lunch. **Diane:** I would love that. Thank you so much, my friend. Seriously, you’re amazing. And I’m so grateful for your work and your friendship. You’re amazing. ## Listen To The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast **Anne:** Most likely along your journey to healing. You connected with friends old and new who have been through this. So thinking about Diane and how she wished she could have found [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/) sooner. If you haven’t already, will you please let them know about the BTR podcast? And about our website, [BTR.ORG](https://www.btr.org/). I love my job, educating women about narcissistic abuse and emotional abuse, and how to get to emotional safety. So I appreciate every one of you who has shared our podcast episodes on social media or tagged us. It would have been cool if Diane had found it before we met. And she was like, wait, that’s a friend from college, that would have been cool. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [How To Know If My Abusive Husband Is Changing - Claire's Story](https://www.btr.org/how-to-know-if-my-abusive-husband-is-changing/) **Published:** November 21, 2023 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Learn how to safely observe if he's truly changing or if it's just more grooming and gaslighting. **Content:** How to know if my abusive husband is changing? Perhaps like Claire, you hope he can change. If you want to discuss the possibility of your abusive husband changing with other women who feel the same way, attend a [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Support Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/). ![is My Abusive Husband is Changing How to Know](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/is-my-abusive-husband-is-changing.webp "is My Abusive Husband is Changing")A man who is changing will *consistently* reject misogyny. This means that he will: - Not expect or ask others to cook, clean, or “take care” of him. - Not expect, ask for, or coerce you or others for sex. - Clean up after himself and others, taking on household and yard tasks without being prodded, asked, or encouraged. - Avoid organizations and situations where misogyny and patriarchy are systemically significant. - Reject patriarchal leadership roles. - Forfeit financial control and take proactive steps to learn how to have a mutual financial partnership ## Heathly Men Don’t Exploit Women Healthy men don’t use exploitative material, period. They understand that it is exploitative and abusive to the victims in the industry, as well as destructive to their wives and themselves. It’s NOT a “temptation” to a healthy man. It’s a no-brainer. If your husband is truly changing, he has done the work to understand the exploitative nature of the industry. To know if your husband is emotionally abusive, take our [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ![What Are Ways to Know if My Abusive Husband is Changing](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/ways-to-know-if-my-abusive-husband-is-changing.webp "Ways to Know if My Abusive Husband is Changing")## How To Know If My Husband Is Changing The effects that his use has had on you and your family. And he will never return to it. Not even once. A healthy man respects your right to make decisions, large and small. He understands that he has zero right to make demands on your time, body, and energy. He gives you space. But you’re not a mind-reader and abusers are VERY good at mimicking these healthy behaviors. So how to know if my husband is changing? At BTR.ORG, we know it can be dangerous to live in close proximity to an abuser who claims to be changing. If you’re invested in staying married to the abuser, believing he is willing and capable of change. To discover your husand’s true character and learn emotional safety strategies, enroll in [The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). [If you need live support today, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session. ](https://www.btr.org/group/) ![How to Know if My Abusive Husband is Changing](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Know-If-My-Abusive-Husband-Is-Changing-2.webp "How to Know if My Abusive Husband is Changing")## Transcript: How Do I Know If My Abusive Husband’s Changing? **Anne:** I have a member of our community on today’s episode. I’m going to call her Claire. Claire and I are from the same faith background. We’ll be talking about some particular programs specific to our faith, but it will relate. Because a lot of you have been through programs similar to this. Either faith based or secular programs, or maybe 12 step programs. As always, all faiths, all paradigms are welcome here. So no matter what your faith or paradigm is, if you’d like to share your story. Email me at podcast@btr.org. We want to help you know if my husband is changing. So Claire, tell me your story. Did you recognize your husband’s abusive behaviors at first? **Claire:** Not at all. I went into the marriage thinking it was going to be equal. Not knowing anything about intimacy and what’s normal. We just had our 25th anniversary. The abuse is mainly coercion and covert emotional abuse. ![Learn How to Know if My Husband is Changing](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/how-to-know-if-my-husband-is-changing.webp "How to Know if My Husband is Changing")He wants to look like the good guy. And so I had put in a lot of effort. This is the whole like love, serve, forgive thing, like our whole marriage. Trying to be a good person and learn how to communicate. And I had been listening to some podcasts about intimacy and how it should be for both people. I was really frustrated with that, because I felt like it’s a true principle. That marriage and intimacy are supposed to be for both people, but it still wasn’t working, and I could not see why. **Anne:** Did his coercion involve using exploitative material? While giving you the impression that he was a faithful Christian man? ## The Role Of Faith & Misconceptions Of Abuse **Claire:** So this is actually my main frustration with our church’s addiction recovery program. They want to tell you [that marriage is hard work,](/marriage-is-hard-work/ "that marriage is hard work,") That he did tell me about the use one year into marriage. But he felt entitled to it. On the podcast, you said this is abuse, and I was like, no, I totally didn’t believe you. I was like, he’s like needy. And then I listened to one of your podcasts about, emotional abuse. I was just completely blown away. How to know if my abusive husband will change is so important. This is the part that I feel is super important, because it took me a little bit of information to see the pattern. Like all I needed to know, abuse is a pattern of control based on entitlement. Emotional abuse is just a tool that is part of domestic abuse. And the whole thing with, like, abusers typically looking like they’re charming. They’re the ones that look good, and they’re the ones that show up for service projects. ![How to Know if My Abusive Husband is Changing What to Look for](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/how-to-know-if-my-abusive-husband-is-changing-1.webp "How to Know if My Abusive Husband is Changing")That the one being abused is more likely to look crazy. And I’m like, hey, that’s me. And yeah, so that kind of blew me out of the water. But it was still like anyone seeing my husband, he’s like very good natured and jolly. It was rare for him to say things that would look abusive or where you could figure it out. But he feels like, yeah, he’s entitled to it as much as he wants. It’s like, I’m this toy on a shelf. He idolizes me, but I’m not a person. So I can’t have bad feelings against him. I can’t put space between us. If I want to go to activities when he’s not working, he’ll pout. But if I’m reading a book around him, he’s not okay with that. ## How To Know If My Abusive Husband will Changing: He’ll Treat You Like An Equal (& Reject Misogyny) **Claire:** Interrupting someone when they’re reading a book. That’s not a big deal. The big deal is that you shouldn’t be doing that. The trying to control. **Anne:** I’m entitled to your attention rather than, I know you’re reading this book, but I would really like your attention., yeah. **Claire:** Yeah, but that’s being equals, right? So the coercion looked like if we hadn’t had it for 48 hours, then he would start criticizing me. And just like pouting, frowning, and being toxic until we did. I had read the LaHaye book, the act of marriage. And also in any marriage books or church materials. The whole love, serve, forgive, don’t be critical. In the first year, I didn’t know that he was addicted. I was so sincere, trying really hard to have a good marriage, I wondered[ is marriage meant to be this hard?](https://www.btr.org/is-marriage-meant-to-be-hard/ " is marriage meant to be this hard?") And I couldn’t see or understand what was going on. In all the things I read, there was nothing about like hey, love, serve, and forgive. ![The Big Question: Is He Finally Changing?](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/jf3qujhSwdk/maxresdefault.jpg) But if you see these red flags, like if you’re bringing up concerns and the person doesn’t listen. Or sincerely take it seriously. Or if you have someone lying to you, there was nothing in the materials that said anything like that. They don’t tell you that [lying is emotionally abusive. ](/is-lying-emotional-abuse/ "lying is emotionally abusive. ")And I don’t think that’s just our church. That’s something I’m really angry about. And I think that’s a huge deal. Like, especially if you’re saying that you care about marriage that’s supposed to last forever, let’s actually try to have a relationship that’s heavenly. **Anne:** How to know if my husband is changing? Guess what they never talk about. I don’t think any religion does. I’ve just thought of this. So this is like an epiphany for me. Are you guys ready for this? Here we go. ## The Need To Know How To Know If My Husband Is Changing: The Church’s Oversight on Spousal Abuse **Anne:** No one ever talks about. What would a hell marriage look like? No one’s like, this type of marriage is a marriage made in hell. And you would be in hell if you lived in it, and that is abuse and you do not want this type of marriage. They never talk about that. Or how to know if my abusive husband is actually changing. **Claire:** I read the most recent handbooks and stuff. They’ll say abusers tend to be people you know, and they list parents, sibling, uncle, but they never say, spouse. Even the patterns of abuse, it’s more like child molester, predator, grooming, but they never say spouse. They have lists of red flags and yellow flags that you look for when you’re dating, like [things to know before getting engaged.](https://www.btr.org/is-my-husband-grooming-me/ "things to know before getting engaged. ") But I’m like, why do you stop looking for that when you’re married? ![Know if My Abusive Husband is Changing Clues](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/know-if-my-abusive-husband-is-changing.webp "Know if My Abusive Husband is Changing")I think the focus on we’re just going to preserve the marriage as an institution, instead of helping people have healthy marriages. And if that was your focus, wouldn’t you teach about red flags and abuse patterns more specifically? You need to if you abusive husband can change. **Anne:** This is James 1:27, Religion that God, our Father, accepts as pure and faultless, to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. That’s interesting that the world part pollutes, because abusers also believe and manipulate them. Here’s the new living translation: pure and genuine religion in the sight of God. The Father means caring for orphans and widows in their distress, and refusing to let the world corrupt you. ## The Unspoken Truths About Marriage **Anne:** So meaning like actually saying the truth. The truth is, this man is abusive, and this woman needs help, and she’s going to need help in the form of maybe food or housing. **Claire:** We talk about helping the defenseless. And if you’re in an abusive marriage and you can’t see it, that’s where I was at for more than two decades. And that’s a very vulnerable place to be in. **Anne:** Yeah, being abused and not knowing you’re being abused. **Claire:** Yeah, and I was sincerely reading all these communication things and marriage books. **Anne:** Yeah, I did the same thing for seven years. I did addiction recovery, where I like needed help, help. I need help. And going to all these therapists and clergy. And no one for seven years says abuse. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) **Claire:** Yeah. That’s why I feel so frustrated. Yeah, especially when we knew that he had a problem the first year. And that’s what I love from you was the whole compulsive entitled sexuality and the lying. That’s one of the huge things where you guys have rocked my world. Was the whole if you are lying about pornography, besides that, just if you’re lying in general, you’re not safe. But if you’re lying about it, then it’s abuse, because you’re not allowing her consent. ## The Power of Truth & Consequences **Claire:** And I read this quote yesterday, lying is about controlling someone else’s reality, hoping that what they don’t know won’t hurt you. And what it means to tell the truth is to give someone else her freedom, to allow her to have a reaction, even if it leads to negative consequences for you, to give her the voice that lying takes away. **Anne:** That is so good. There’s a church talk, it’s one of my favorites, by one of our apostles, who is now, passed away. But he tells this story about how he loved football. And he had the football, and he was just like two inches away from the end zone. The whole pile was on top of him, and he could push the football a little more, and no one would ever know. And I don’t know what happened in that game, if they won or not. One of the things he said was, tell the truth and let the consequences happen. Because you can’t alter God’s reality. He knows what it is. Essentially lying is also trying to, what, alter it for God? Like, that’s not gonna work. So anyway, I’ve always thought that, like, tell the truth and accept what the consequence of the truth is. Even if it’s not good for you. **Claire:** Yeah, that’s the emotional immaturity going along with abuse. That you can’t handle someone else thinking you’re bad or seeing something bad that you’ve done. Then you lie to other people about your intentions or what you’ve done, so you can keep hiding. And you don’t know if he will change. ## Misinterpretations & Misguided Help **Anne:** So while you’re reading these communication books, what reasons did you give for his behavior? Just that he needed it, what did you think at the time? **Claire:** I didn’t think it was control coming out of entitlement. I thought he was like hangry, like when you’re fasting. And I thought he was being a little bit bratty. And I also thought it was my job to manage him. So I would try to placate him before he would be a jerk. **Anne:** So like, if I am intimate with him like right now. **Claire:** 48 to 72 hours, then we won’t fight, and I can avoid the drama and all that. Because he’s going to get hangry, and then he’s going to get grouchy. And I just didn’t see that it was a choice. I’ve kind of operated like a robot. I didn’t know if my abusive husband would change. **Anne:** Even if you feel like you’re choosing it. Would you choose that if you knew the truth? Well, there are moments where I wanted to. He was grooming me. And so I thought he was very loving. And then later I find out, wait, had I known he had used the day before and lied to my face. I would not have wanted it. I thought he was changing. **Claire:** Yeah. ## How To Know If My Abusive Husband has Changed: He Will NEVER Go Back To Pornography Use **Anne:** So you attended your church’s addiction recovery program, which is a program for wives of addicts. Talk about your experience with that. **Claire:** So, initially, I loved going to the meetings because I was a hermit. I didn’t have any friends, because I wasn’t taking care of myself. So this was like the only time I was talking to women. But, the main thing I am upset about is that they didn’t teach that lying is abuse. When they said women whose husbands use have PTSD symptoms. I felt like seen in that. I felt like, oh, like I feel super stressed out, but that’s normal. So it did like take a weight off of me. But at the same time, it was like, oh, has he really changed. Because I feel like he’s cheating on me. When he’s looking at exploitative material, but he’s not. So it’s like this illogical emotional response. **Anne:** Wait, so they told you you’re logical because you feel like he’s cheating on you. But we’re telling you no, this isn’t cheating. **Claire:** I don’t know if they taught that or that’s what I got out of it. So like, that is not safe. So you don’t feel safe. And you have these PTSD symptoms because you’re actually not safe. So like, your feelings are legitimate. And that was a huge piece missing. I was like, why don’t you teach that lying is abuse and you’re actually not safe? **Anne:** Also, what is the PTSD from? It’s from abuse. It’s not from, “pornography.” It’s from the whole system of coercive control. They’re not saying you have PTSD from abuse because you’re being abused. ## Entitlement Attitude, Lying & Abusive Behaviors **Claire:** It’s so interesting. If you had someone who was using, but they weren’t lying about it. You would still feel scared because they’re doing something that’s demeaning to women. To me, it seems like I feel at least 80 percent safer, because if you’re telling me, I know what’s happening. That’s the piece I didn’t see until you split that out for me, that the lying is part of the abuse. **Anne:** Yeah, I see this a lot with victims, and I want to say, like, beware of this. They’ll be like, yeah, he was using, and then he says he stopped, and he didn’t use for a while. I’m like, who said he wasn’t using for a while? And how do you know that? There is literally no way for us to know that they’re not using except for their behavior. So when women say to me, they stopped using, but they were still angry. I’m like, if a user says I’ve stopped, but their behavior is still the same. There’s literally no reason to believe they’ve stopped. And even if they have, who cares? **Claire:** Even if they stop, they already have an entitlement attitude. Like I’m entitled to women, and women should show up like this. And then you’re watching, which has abuse, besides being demeaning to women in general. If they stop using it, they still have abusive behaviors that they learned from it. The whole attitude of being entitled towards women is the source of abuse. So even if they stopped using, you’re likely to still have the abusive behaviors after the fact. If they stopped in the first place. ## The Need For Abuse Education **Anne:** My goal in life is that whenever any woman finds out, her husband uses. And it is a surprise to her. Or finds out he’s been lying or an affair. That’s the first thing they learn before they even think about pornography addiction recovery. Before they even think about love languages or men’s needs, anything like that, is that they learn about abuse. Because once you learn about abuse, you realize all that other stuff is ridiculous. If you learn about abuse first, and then you learn about addiction recovery, it’s like, this is ridiculous. If you learn about abuse first, and then you learn about men’s “needs,” you’re like, that is ridiculous. The abuse education helps you dismiss all the misogynistic, societal, religious, exploitative privileges that men have. Because it’s systemic. If you’re educated about abuse, it’s easier to dismiss all the nonsense from all the different places. **Claire:** Well, and you’re going to see it. Whereas you probably wouldn’t If you were just thinking about the it. Then you wouldn’t see the other patterns because it’s pervasive. **Anne:** I remember being like, okay, he’s abusive, but I don’t want my family to fall apart. So what am I supposed to do? Okay, I’ll just live in abuse, I guess. Because I don’t want to get divorced. I remember I went through, I don’t know, a month or two of realizing he was abusive. And then thinking, can I call it something else? Can I do something about, you know? So I think that’s why it’s so heart wrenching to find out you’re a victim. ## The Birth Of BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop **Anne:** When I went through it, no one taught me effective ways to set boundaries in this situation. Everyone I went to just made it worse. So through prayer, pondering, and experimentation, I discovered strategies that work. Then I tested them on myself, and they worked well. And other women tried them out, and they were like, these work. So then I wrote the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) to teach every woman these strategies. We’ve seen over and over again, these strategies work. They work to help women see their husband’s true character. It gives women enough space, both in their head and physical space, to determine what his true character is, and if he has changed. **Anne:** Betrayal Trauma Recovery is here, and we’ve got awesome online [BTR.ORG Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/) every day. We have podcasts and workshops to help women. But I always think about the Israelites, God parted the Red Sea. I see that as education about abuse. So when you finally are educated about abuse, that’s like God parting the Red Sea for you, but you have to walk through. You have to start walking, and no one else will start walking it for you. **Claire:** Yeah, I feel like the community, like the BTR.ORG Group, has someone believing you is validating. I feel like that’s essential, because you already feel like it’s shocking and disorienting. They can’t take the actions for you, but that emotional support for me has been vital. Because I’m like, am I seeing this clearly? I feel like I am, that’s been super, super helpful for me. And I was like, holy crap. My whole life. Where was this information 24 years ago? ## How To Know If My Abusive Husband will Change: He’ll Respect Your Autonomy **Anne:** That’s why I started it because we’re the same age and there was nothing. **Claire:** There wasn’t anything. **Anne:** I knew there was nothing because I’d worked in the addiction recovery industrial complex for years. And so I knew they weren’t making abuse the central issue. It was like, oh, and then he might be abusive on the side, and I think it is the central issue. **Claire:** Yeah, and for me, I don’t care about it anymore. I don’t even care, like, can you please stop trying to control me? Like, let me make my own choices, don’t gaslight me, don’t blame shift me. It’s been the emotional abuse, especially since it’s been so covert. That’s been destructive to me. And I feel like, yeah, can you please expose that so that women can move on with their lives? Because when you focus on the addiction, it’s like all the focus is on the use. And that he’s like this victim, and he’s struggling, and the focus isn’t on the wife getting safety for her. She is just focused on how to help him change. Just please empower me, exactly. There’s no way I would’ve seen it. I’ve been to a therapist who couldn’t see it. So there’s no way me, as a young wife, there’s no way I’m gonna understand. That’s what I wanted. I want information. I want the 20 year old me. I’m sure there are thousands and thousands of women just to have that piece of information. This is abuse. And then she can figure things out herself, and she can learn and set boundaries, to find out for herself if he is capable of changing. ## Know If My Abusive Husband Is Changing by Useing the Living Free Strategies **Claire:** Because he didn’t change at all. Even with all the information, we were having all these discussions. And he’s, I love you so badly. And I want to do all these things until I was like, I’m done. Yeah, and that’s what those [Living Free Strategies](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/ "Living Free strategies") are for, to help women determine if their abusive husband is changing. **Anne:** I’m so glad they helped you, Claire. I’m so grateful that you shared your story today. Thank you! **Claire:** Thank you. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast, Related Posts --- ### [Christian Help For Infidelity: When You Don't Know What To Do](https://www.btr.org/christian-help-for-infidelity/) **Published:** January 3, 2023 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** As a Christian, you're called to protect yourself from evil. **Content:** Your husband’s infidelity is heartbreaking. As a Christian, this truth remains constant—you’re called to protect yourself from evil and pursue spiritual safety. If you’re looking for Christian help for infidelity, here’s what you need to know. If you’ve just discovered your husband’s infidelity, start with this [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/) to see if what else might be going on. ### What’s The Spiritual Problem? If you’ve been led to believe that the betrayal in your marriage is because you haven’t prayed enough or prayed enough yet. If your husband or clergy has told you that infidelity is your fault because you didn’t submit to him? These are evil lies. ![Spiritual Abusers Want You To Think You're Rebellious](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/GcKBBYifx2I/maxresdefault.jpg) The infidelity had nothing to do with how you communicate, how you look, or even how often you’ve been intimate. **YOU are not the problem.** Adultery is a sin. Nowhere in scripture does it say a man’s sins are the fault of his wife’s eye rolling. The real problem is your [husband’s emotional and psychological abuse,](https://www.btr.org/can-my-husband-change/) his chronic lying, manipulation, gaslighting, sexual coercion, and financial secrecy. ![Christian Help for Infidelity](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/christian-help-for-infidelity.webp "Christian Help for Infidelity")Christian Help for Infidelity## The Best Christian Help For Infidelity: The Word of God Scripture reminds us of the importance of standing against wickedness and seeking freedom from harm. Here are a few powerful verses to encourage and guide you as you seek to deal with his infidelity as Christ would: - **Ephesians 5:11** – “Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.” - **Proverbs 4:23** – “Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it.” - **James 1:27** – “…to keep oneself unstained by the world.” These scriptures show that separating yourself from abuse and deception is what God wants for you—it’s biblical. You are not called to suffer in silence or endure abuse for the sake of appearances or misguided concepts of forgiveness. ![Healing from Infidelity Christian](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/healing-from-infidelity-christian.webp "Healing from Infidelity Christian")Healing from Infidelity ChristianJesus didn’t come to keep you stuck in pain. He came to bring freedom, peace, and healing. Luke 4:18-19 tells us His mission was to set captives free and lift up the oppressed. That doesn’t mean women should remain in a [marriage where there’s infidelity or emotional](https://www.btr.org/emotional-safety-examples/) abuse, sacrificing her well-being for a man who takes the name of God in vain when he claims to love God, but his actions prove otherwise. The Bible reminds us to pay attention to actions, not just words. Matthew 7:16 says, “You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?” And in 1 John 3:18, we’re encouraged to “not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.” ![Healing After Infidelity Christian](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/healing-after-infidelity-christian.webp "Healing After Infidelity Christian")Healing After Infidelity ChristianIf your husband’s actions don’t reflect God’s love, He commands you to prioritize your safety and peace. Jesus came to deliver you from evil. He never asked you to submit to it. ### Facing Misguided Clergy or Pressure Sadly, some people might tell you to stay with a man who is hurting you or taking advantage of you. For example, kind people like clergy or members of your community might say this. They might even tell you that staying shows your faith or that it’s a good sacrifice. Also, others might say that if you just pray hard enough, God will [change your husband](https://www.btr.org/can-my-husband-change/). But, it’s important to remember that no one should have to stay in a situation where they are being hurt. ![Dealing with Infidelity As a Christian](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/dealing-with-infidelity-as-a-christian.webp "Dealing with Infidelity As a Christian")Dealing with Infidelity As a ChristianThis is not what Christ intended. God calls us to live in safety and truth, not submission to evil. You don’t have to be an “abuse victim for Jesus.” Jesus fights for the oppressed and calls for justice. Of course, you can [pray for your husband](https://www.btr.org/prayer-for-my-husband/) to repent, but what does that have to do with remaining in proximity to his harm? ### Christian help For Infidelity solutions [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) was taken from scripture. In studying what Christ said, we teach women to… - **Get Educated About Abuse:** *Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee.* Our Savior wants us to be educated, especially about abuse. Listen to [The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast](https://www.btr.org/podcast/) to learn about what other Christian women did when they discovered their husband’s infidelity. ![Infidelity Christian Counseling](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/infidelity-christian-counseling.webp "Infidelity Christian Counseling")Infidelity Christian Counseling - **Establishing Safety:** Learn strategies to protect yourself from emotionally, physically, and spiritually abusive behaviors. To learn more, enroll in [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) - **Find the Right Support:** Our [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions connect you with a coach who understands what you’re going through. She’ll help guide you toward clarity and peace.](https://www.btr.org/group/) ### Biblical Help When You Discover Your Husband’s Infidelity The Bible encourages you to cast out evil from your presence. That is Christian help for infidelity. This could include [separating from a husband](https://www.btr.org/in-home-separation/) who lies, manipulates, and emotionally abuses you. Choosing safety is NOT a sinful decision—it’s one of strength and faith. Consider practical steps to safeguard your wellbeing: 1. **Set Boundaries:** Begin by creating physical, emotional, and spiritual boundaries with the strategies in [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) 2. **Connect with a Supportive Community:** [Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session to find understanding and empowerment with women who’ve been through the same pain.](https://www.btr.org/group/) 3. **Seek Truth and Healing:** Trust in God’s plan for your freedom, and explore tools like our [Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) to build a better, safer life. ### Christ Is With You – Even After Infidelity Jesus came to bring hope to those hurting, and freedom to those who feel trapped. He cares about your pain and sadness. You deserve a life full of peace and hope. Start [healing from infidelity](https://www.btr.org/free-betrayal-trauma-meditation/) today with Betrayal Trauma Recovery. ![Christian Marriage Counseling for Infidelity](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/christian-marriage-counseling-for-infidelity.webp "Christian Marriage Counseling for Infidelity")Christian Marriage Counseling for Infidelity![Christian Counseling for Adultery](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/christian-counseling-for-adultery.webp "Christian Counseling for Adultery")## Transcript: Christian Help For Infidelity **Anne:** I have a pastor on today’s episode, we’re going to call him pastor Pete. He talks to a lot of women in his congregation who have just [discovered their husband](https://www.btr.org/dream-my-husband-is-trying-to-kill-me/)‘s sexual addiction. And he’s been known to say that when men have a “sexual addiction,” or when they use pornography, that they’re participating in sexual assault. Welcome Pete. Can you talk about why you came to that conclusion that a sexual addiction. In other words, viewing pornography participates in sexual assault. **Pete:** Sure, a little background, many years ago, talking to men and hearing them. I realized that one of the real desires they had in getting married was to find someone upon whom they could act out all the pornography they had seen over the years. And that just showed me how much today’s young men have been immersed in pornography. This was something new to me. You know, as somebody who grew up before the internet, I didn’t have that kind of access to it from a young age, as so many people do today. There’s something intrinsically violent about pornography. There’s something intrinsically violent about that kind of sexual transgression. And I really came to see even more that most people involved in making pornography are doing so against their will. Or they’re doing so because it’s their last option. So they seek Christian help for infidelity. And I’m sure you know that tons of the pornography in the world comes from impoverished countries. Where people are taken advantage of, or this is the only way they can earn some money. And for us to look at pornography, we must participate in that violence. ## Biblical Perspective on Sexual Ethics **Pete:** As you look at the Bible, you look at what it’s like to think as a Christian. God made us so he can tell us how to live. He can set the standards, set the rules. And we find early in the Bible, the 10 commandments, right? These commandments govern human behavior, both in our relationship to God and our relationship to other people. As we continue to read the Bible and Jesus comes, we find out what we should have known. Many people knew all along. Which is that these 10 laws, these 10 rules, weren’t binary. As long as you don’t commit adultery, you’re fine. We realized that each of these laws actually summarizes a much wider ethic. And so Jesus would say, “You have heard it said. You shall not commit adultery.” Right? So that’s what people have been told us what the law says. That is Christian help for infidelity. And then he would say, but I say to you, anyone who looks at another person lustfully is guilty of breaking that law. So he took the very defined, specific law and made it very broad. It was meant to be that way all along, to hold that standard of do not commit adultery. It’s not just to not fall into bed with somebody to whom you’re not married. But it’s to honor other people. It’s to not think lustfully about them. As we expand what’s meant by these laws, we see that if we participate in a sin that demands violence, we’re also participating in that violence. ## Live for the good of other people **Anne:** Yeah, I’m so grateful for the commandments for this reason. They’re not just a criteria for whether we get into heaven. I like how you said they’re not binary. Like, if you commit adultery. You won’t go to heaven. And if you don’t commit adultery, you will go to heaven. Instead, the commandments are about our relationships and how we interact with other people. And this is God saying, I love all my children. While you’re down there. I don’t want you to hurt anybody else. The commandments are more about. Whether we harm other people in this life. Are we making the world a better place? Are we making it more peaceful? Can we create heaven in our relationships right now? It’s sad to me that so many Christians don’t think of the commandments in this way. Because if every person in the world obeyed the commandments, the level of destruction and harm caused to other people would be greatly reduced. I mean, we all make mistakes. There are so many ways that we can harm others accidentally, even if our intent is good and we’re still obeying the commandments, but the level of harm would be seriously reduced. **Pete:** Sure, and you think about how Jesus summarized those laws. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. Love your neighbor as yourself. Christian help for infidelity includes all those ten laws summarized in two. Live for the glory of God. And to do that, you live for the good of other people. And so if everyone on this earth lived for the glory of God, how do they do that? By only ever doing good to other people. ## Christian help for infidelity: Change from the inside out **Pete:** Jesus says adultery is not just having a sexual relationship with someone to whom you’re not married, but even lusting. It’s even desiring, looking at that person, as an object, objectifying the person. According to Jesus’s standard, when your heart desires something in that way, you’ve given your heart to it, you’re allowing your heart to long for it. You’re still guilty of that sin. Because Jesus isn’t just interested in moderating our behavior as if we can have evil desires. But as long as we restrain those desires, we’re good. No, we’re to be changed from the inside out. It’s where desires are good, and therefore our behavior is good. What we do simply reflects who we are on the inside. And so we’re to be changed, transformed from the inside out. That is Christian help for infidelity. **Anne:** Yeah, and he’s not just sinning against the women in pornography and lusting after them. But in so doing, he’s not paying attention to his wife or giving her the attention she deserves or needs. So it’s both that he’s harming the women in the pornography by participating in an exploitative, abusive industry. And he’s also withholding love, affection, and support from his wife. **Pete:** Right, and then you can go farther to say you’re also showing your discontent with God. You’re criticizing God for not giving you someone or giving you something. And you’re expressing this dissatisfaction in how God has related to you. As if he’s holding back. So I don’t think we can overestimate the depravity of human nature as displayed in this kind of sin. ## The Deceit in Sexual Sin **Anne:** Yeah, at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we call it abusive. We say pornography use is abusive to your spouse. And some people have told me that’s too extreme. And I tell them there’s no other word I can think of that shows the severity of this behavior. It is so harmful that just to say, it’s not good, isn’t going far enough. **Pete:** Mm-Hmm, yeah, and you know, before I came on here, I had to spend some time thinking about that, and I haven’t yet reached a conclusion. I certainly understand why you say it, and I completely agree in many cases. **Anne:** From my point of view, I would say every instance is abusive in and of itself, whether the person is an abuser. Do they know it’s harmful and continue to engage in it? And also, do they lie? Do they manipulate people to hide their behavior? Let’s let’s talk about that for a minute. Let’s talk about the deceit when men seek Christian help for infidelity. **Pete:** Yeah, deceit, when people commit this sin, they cover their tracks. That deceit can take different forms. That deceit can cover up your behavior. So erasing your browser history in the hope that people won’t see it. It can be the failure to report behavior. And then there’s the deceit of even, as a Christian, you know, The Lord’s Supper is an ongoing ritual Christians participate in that draws us close to Christ. And before we take Lord’s Supper, we’re meant to examine ourselves and see, do I have any behavior in my life that is ongoing and unrepentant that I’m refusing to conform my behavior to what God calls me to? ## The Consequences of Unrepentant Sin **Pete:** And if week after week, I’m participating in the Lord’s Supper. I’m deceiving people around me. And in a sense, I’m trying to deceive God um, ultimately. Unrepentant sin like that can be proof that I’m not truly a Christian. **Anne:** Many of our clients at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, their husbands, are participating in that level of deceit. And that would be another reason why I use the word abuse. **Pete:** Yeah, and I think we’re all capable of distinguishing between people who didn’t know they were just young and immature versus the person who is really being deceptive and hiding it. From 1st Thessalonians chapter 4, where Paul, was writing to a church. And he’s really warning them about sexual immorality. He’s telling them of the importance as a Christian, you become Christians. How do you behave now that you’re a Christian? When you want Christian help for infidelity? You’re to abstain from sexual immorality. And the positive side of that commandment is to control your own body, holiness, and honor. He warns that nobody’s to wrong another, because the Lord is an avenger. When he uses that word wrong, that’s related to greed or fraud. So he’s essentially saying that this kind of sexual sin, in which pornography would fall under, is a form of defrauding other people. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## Christian help for infidelity: The Escalation of Pornography Addiction **Pete:** When people do pornography, initially a small amount will satisfy, but they have to push themselves into darker stuff and into greater quantity. And as you study the human brain, you understand why. Your body craves deeper and deeper chemical experiences. It takes more and more.to give you the same experience that you wanted. And if you talk to certain people who have been addicted to drugs or something. They may say they’ve been chasing that first high, you know, that first time they experienced heroin, that it gave them some experience. They’ve always been trying to find again. Pornography can be like that. You spend your whole life indulging in it to a deeper degree, trying to recover the shock, the electric feeling you had the first time. **Anne:** Yeah, we see that all the time, how it escalates. So as a Christian, I feel like pornography leaves a void, and some of my listeners aren’t religious. But for our Christian friends, who want Christian help for infidelity, why do you think the spirit is so offended by pornography, and why does it warn so strongly against it? **Pete:** This Spirit engages with us to warn us away from sin and to assure us that we can overcome any temptation through His power. Sin is never inevitable. We’ve always got, through the Holy Spirit, what we need to say no to that sin and do what’s right. Over time, when we give in to a sin like pornography again and again, we’re constantly shoving the spirit away. We’re constantly saying, no, we don’t want to take hold of what you’re offering us. Eventually, it’s like the spirit hands us over to our sin. You can read about that in Romans chapter 1. **Anne:** Yeah. ## The Importance of Truth, Forgiveness & Boundaries **Anne:** And it’s not just with sexual sin, it’s also with truth. Men who engage in this type of abusive behavior continually refuse to be honest. They have a sort of fantasy world that they’ve created and live in where they’re a victim. My belief is that truth is their only way out. Christian help for infidelity, you know, a Christian teaching that I think I interpreted incorrectly that kept me stuck for so long. It was my belief in forgiveness. And I want to talk about that for just a minute. So I was continually forgiving and so grateful for the Lord’s grace and his love. and mercy, knowing that people can repent, and looking forward to my husband’s repentance. Not knowing that he wasn’t repenting. He was just lying in manipulating me. In fact, my ex would say things like don’t you believe in Jesus? And he was basically asking me to tolerate his abuse in the name of Jesus. Which is of course taking the Lord’s name in vain, which is against the commandments, in addition to the lying and adultery. I want to ensure that women are educated about abuse, so that we can be at the feet of Jesus and partake of his grace and goodness. I believe Christ’s atonement covers the consequences, so I can move toward peace. **Pete:** Yeah, I forgive you, and we’re getting a divorce are not mutually exclusive things. You have violated your vows in this marriage through adultery. And even while I forgive you, that’s not the same as saying, I’m going to stay married to you. That forgiveness doesn’t mean the eradication of all consequences. You know, the abused can’t maintain a relationship with the abuser. ## Able to Forgive when safe from abuse **Pete:** Christian help for infidelity can often be confused. Those things where to say, I forgive you means, Oh, and I’m not going to report this behavior to the police. Or I forgive you, it means we had to stay married. I want to distinguish between those things. And I also think we can be too quick to forgive in the sense of we haven’t seen remorse and repentance from that person. **Anne:** From my experience, I was only able to truly forgive when I was safe from the abuse. So my ex-husband, he continues to lie and manipulate people and claim he’s the victim. Because of that, I’ve cut off all contact with him. And I look forward to the day where he can live in truth. But since that’s not the case now, the way I think about forgiveness is that he owes me a debt. He owes me truth and fidelity to our marriage vows. He owes me a lot, you know, child support, and he won’t pay a bunch of stuff like that. So releasing him from the debt he owes me, releasing my desire for him to pay me with truth, honor, and goodness, it made it so much easier for me to separate myself from him and protect myself. ## Christian help for infidelity: Living in Peace and Freedom **Pete:** Yeah, I guess I’d want us all to think about the value of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the good news of what Jesus has done. She doesn’t live before this person, as if he’s the one who judges her, as if he’s the one who she has to please. She lives before Jesus Christ. She’s been fully and finally accepted, and she can now live in peace and freedom. She’s not captive to this other person, to this abuser. So the gospel of Jesus Christ is such such good news. **Anne:** I have such gratitude for God for giving us these commandments that can help us be safe. And I want to share that women in this situation, obeying the commandments yourself, will bring so much power into your life. As I have chosen to obey the commandments, and so many other women in this situation have. God enables us to walk through the Red Sea on dry ground. When we get across the Red Sea, we have to wander around the wilderness. It’s not an easy road, but as we are obedient, the Lord will bless us. And our [marriages shouldn’t be such hard work](/marriage-is-hard-work/). Thank you so much for coming on this episode today to talk about Christian help for infidelity. **Pete:** You’re very welcome. ## Taking One Step at a Time **Anne:** I realized recently, I haven’t said thank you for listening to my podcast. This podcast has received over 330,000 downloads now. Thank you for listening. Thank you for being here with me through my journey of healing. It is humbling to think that so many women are listening. I appreciate your support. In September, the kids return to school, and sometimes it feels like things might improve, but this time of year is really hard for me. My ex was arrested on September 18th. A month after school had started. So this time of year, I think back on that. My life has changed so much. I learned how to set boundaries. I started podcasting. And I’ve heard all your amazing stories. I can focus on my children. And have hope for the future. I’m amazed to be at this point to look back. And realize that I’m feeling positive when I never thought I would feel like this. I received Christian help for infidelity. I don’t have that feeling in my gut that something bad’s going to happen anymore and don’t live with dread daily. So if you’re in that stage, I understand. I’ve been there. Just keep taking one step at a time. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma --- ### [How Abusers Gaslight: Telling Phrases to Watch For](https://www.btr.org/how-do-abusers-gaslight/) **Published:** February 6, 2024 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Gaslighting can be obvious or subtle. Learn how to spot it in marriage. **Content:** Gaslighting is a calculated maneuver that emotional and psychological abusers use to keep women stuck. How do abusers gaslight? Dr. Jessica Taylor, author of ***Why Women Are Blamed for Everything*** and ***Sexy But Psycho*** talks with Anne Blythe M.Ed, about specific details with real life stories. [Betrayal Trauma Recovery is here for you. If you need support, attend one of our support group sessions TODAY.](https://www.btr.org/group/) ![is Gaslighting Emotional Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/is-gaslighting-emotional-abuse.webp "is Gaslighting Emotional Abuse")## Abusers Use THESE PHRASES To Gaslight YOU Wondering if you’ve been a victim of gaslighting? Dr. Jessica Taylor and Anne share some of these common phrases and conversations that abusers may use with victims to distort their reality and cause them to wonder if they’re capable of discerning truth: - “I’ve asked our family and friends to pray for you.” - “You’re overly emotional.” - “You’re mentally unwell.” - “Have you been taking your medication?” - “Have you considered going to therapy?” - “No one is going to believe you.” - “No one is going to support you/like you/believe you/listen to you.” - “I know you care about our family, and ever since you started \_\_\_\_\_\_ (listening to this podcast, reading this book, talking to this friend, etc), you’ve been disconnected/too “feminist”/hurting our family, etc.” - “The light in your eyes is gone – I think you’ve lost the Spirit.” ## Abusers Use THESE PHRASES To Gaslight Advocates Advocates include YOUR family, friends, clergy, victim advocates (such as DV workers), medical care providers, and others: - “She hasn’t been taking her medication.” - “Please pray for her – she needs all of our help right now.” - “She’s been acting unusual lately.” - “I’ve done all I can.” - “I’m worried she’s losing her mind.” - “I’m scared she’s going to leave the Church.” - “She’s been violent with me and the children.” - “I think she’s cheating on me.” - “I love her so much, I wish she’d come back to us.” ![This is How Abusers Use Gaslighting](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/is-gaslighting-abuse.webp "This is How Abusers Use Gaslighting")## Transcript: How Do Abusers Gaslight Victims & Advocates? **Anne:** I have Dr. Jessica Taylor, the author of *Why Women Are Blamed for Everything*. And the newly released *Sexy, but Psycho*, she has a PhD in forensic psychology and is the director of Victim Focus. Welcome Dr. Taylor. **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** Thank you so much for having me. **Anne:** In America, most news will say there was a domestic disturbance. Like they were having a fight, then he killed her. Rather than saying he was abusive and killed her. And then at the bottom of that article, they’ll say, call the national domestic abuse hotline. As if calling a number, those of us who have dealt with it and are living in it. We’ve called those numbers, and it was not as helpful as people think. Yeah. But even the reporting of it, prior to linking to it at the bottom, is misogynistic. And sort of like, the alleged or she was a part of it somehow. ## Abusers Mutualize & Neutralize **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** Well, I call that mutualizing, mutualizing and neutralizing. Because it’s like, you know how you just gave the example of like, they are having a fight or it is a domestic? It reframes this whole system of power, control, and abuse from one person to the other. As this mutual, neutral almost like a relationship problem. I don’t know if you ever hear people say, “Oh it’s like six of one and half a dozen of the other.” It’s like they’re as bad as each other type narrative. ![What Kind of Abuse is Gaslighting](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/what-kind-of-abuse-is-gaslighting.webp "What Kind of Abuse is Gaslighting")And that’s absolutely not true in abuse. The point of abuse like this is that it is systematic. It’s about power and control. And about the perpetrator getting something out of controlling, destroying and breaking down that woman. It’s not mutual, but the language, like the examples you just gave, minimizes it and trivializes it, doesn’t it? **Anne:** I feel like now there are many, many women who understand this and can see it for what it is. But there are also so many women who still can’t. And it’s so important that women know these [powerful truths about emotional abuse.](https://www.btr.org/7-powerful-truths-about-emotional-abuse/ "powerful truths about emotional abuse.") And therapists, institutions, court systems, and others that cannot see it. Why do you think it took so long for some of us to recognize what was happening? **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** There are multiple answers to this. ## Systematic Grooming, Gaslighting & Abuse From Birth **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** I mean, the first answer for me is that we are groomed from birth. As women and girls, to tolerate, accept, minimize, normalize, and the violence, abuse, and power used against us. Abusers gaslight with an insidious, careful, global considered process. And it’s very successful, which means that lots of women and girls grow up in abusive households. Dads, granddads, uncles and brothers abuse them. My research has repeatedly shown that brothers and dads are likely to be the first perpetrators against a woman or girl. And then you go on and get into these relationships. These men and teenage boys, gaslight then dehumanize you, harm you, abuse you, assault you, rape you, whatever it is. ![12 Common Gaslighting Phrases](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/5khd-xStltQ/sddefault.jpg) ## How Do Abusers Gaslight? Grooming From Birth **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** [You are successfully groomed from birth that it’s either normal or that if they do these things, it’s your fault. You must have caused them to do that. ](https://www.btr.org/is-my-husband-grooming-me/ "You are successfully groomed from birth that it's either normal or that if they do these things, it's your fault. You must have caused them to do that. ")So you internalize it over a period of time. There is nothing to sound the alarm about. There’s nothing to disclose. There’s nothing to report, because to you, that’s your normal. That’s your life. And lots of women listening will recognize that we have been in a situation like this. If you’ve been through this, which I assume, lots of your listeners and you and me have been through male violence. Where you don’t even know you’re in it, like you’re living in it every day, and the abuse can be life changing and yet you still haven’t really clicked in. To what it is you’re living in and how it’s deliberate. ![Why is Gaslighting Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/why-is-gaslighting-abuse.webp "Why is Gaslighting Abuse")Abusers gaslight in a systematic way. You know, the perpetrator, your partner or your ex wants that to happen. They’re enjoying it. They’re taking something from it. And so it takes a long time. Perpetrators often do a great job convincing you that it’s you with the problem. They will gaslight you, they will reframe you as mentally disordered, that you don’t remember things right. That you overreact, that you’re over emotional, and that you’re hysterical. And so you often question everything that’s ever happened to you. Like, did it happen like that? Or like, am I overthinking it? Am I overanalyzing what he just said? Or like, was it as bad as I’m making out? Maybe I’ve remembered it wrong. Maybe he’s right. And I think we have created over millennia a culture of convincing women that they’re just mentally inferior and don’t remember things right. ## Recognizing Emotional & Psychological Abuse **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** They don’t understand things, over emotional and overreact to everything. It means we second guess everything. **Anne:** Here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we know that many [husbands groom](https://www.btr.org/is-my-husband-grooming-me/ "husbands groom") and gaslight. We focus on emotional and psychological abuse and coercion. We don’t involve physical assault. Because it can, but I want to focus on emotional and psychological abuse and coercion. Because I feel it’s easier to see the physical abuse, even if you don’t understand it. For example, if someone punches a wall you might not think you’re being physically intimidated per se or that’s physical abuse. But it is. So people can live in that. Women can live in that and not recognize it. Instead women are told that [marriage is hard work](https://www.btr.org/marriage-is-hard-work/ "marriage is hard work") and it’s normal. And the emotional and psychological abuse and coercion is so difficult to see, because it’s all those manipulation tactics and deceit. And so for so long, because you weren’t getting punched in the face or tied up or something like that. Trying to completely dismantle somebody’s reality is extremely emotionally violent, and it’s extremely psychologically abusive. And that is what is so concerning to me. ![Why Abusers Gaslight](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/why-abusers-gaslight.webp "Why Abusers Gaslight")It is also concerning to me that you never have physical violence without emotional and psychological abuse. If your husband is going to physically abuse you, you can know they’ve also emotionally and psychologically abused you. It ramps up and it starts from psychological and emotional abuse. So if women can recognize the psychological and emotional abuse, my hope is they can get to emotional and psychological safety. Which is super important, but that’s also the foundation of safety. Because if you’re psychologically safe and emotionally safe, chances are you’re also physically safe as well. **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** Yeah, definitely. ## How Do Abusers Gaslight & Manipulate **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** Because even if you’ve been physically assaulted. They’ve already set the scene for that behavior anyway through emotional manipulation and coercion. And then once they’ve committed that assault, they will then slip back into that emotional and psychological manipulation and gaslighting, they continue it. Yeah, absolutely to either cover what they did or convince you it wasn’t that bad. Or to convince you not to tell anybody, or that you actually led them to do that. That you push their buttons. That they wouldn’t have behaved like that if it wasn’t for what you said, what you did, or all that sort of stuff. I identify very much with what you’re saying, obviously from a professional perspective as a psychologist, but also from a personal perspective, Because the marriage I was in years ago was generally not physically abusive. There were a few incidents towards the end, and then I left, but it was actually years and years of almost total mental destruction. And I was lucky that my coping mechanism was studying and reading books and working. I had this little escape. But I think once he figured out that was the escape, that was what he started attacking. So it was this constant like, Oh, you think you’re so clever. Why are you always reading those books? ![How is Gaslighting Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/how-is-gaslighting-abuse.webp "How is Gaslighting Abuse")You think you’re so good. You think you’re going to be something, and nobody likes you. You’re never going anywhere. Nobody’s gonna be your friend. Like if I ever made a new friend, it was like, oh, she probably doesn’t even like you. She should probably feel sorry for you. And it’s this constant trying to break you down piece by piece. ## Personal Aftermath Of Mental Destruction **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** And for many women who have also lived through that, it stays with you, that stuff, for a long time. Gaslighting causes you question yourself, it affects your self esteem, it affects the way you understand yourself. And it affects your confidence in your own judgment, and even things like your ambition, your dreams and your decisions. It changes your worldview, it changes your view of self, and of your relationships. And makes you question yourself, and about people who care about you and stuff. Because somebody has, like, constantly got in your head that you’re not worthy, worthless, not good enough, stupid, ugly, or no one will ever want you. I get what you mean, people struggle to identify abuse. If you’ve been punched in the face, or something very physical has happened, there is something very tangible about that. Gaslighting is when you are constantly emotionally manipulated. You’re put down, belittled, laughed at, and made to feel like you’re going crazy. It almost sometimes feels like you’ve got no evidence. Like you can’t prove any of it, and nobody’s gonna listen. ## Subtle Abuse: When Abusers Gaslight **Anne:** For listeners of this podcast, there are some very insidious types of abuse too. I would say the type of emotional abuse you’re describing is also, I mean, it’s hard to see when you’re in it. But that can also be obvious, right? If someone says you’re stupid or ugly or something. Abusers gaslight with these subtle ways of emotional and psychological abuse. Like, I love you so much, I care about you. And I’m worried about you. **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** Oh yeah. **Anne:** You haven’t been remembering things correctly. Or I’m concerned, because I know our family is our top priority. And as you read these books, and in my case, many victims who listen to my podcast. Their husband will say to them, “I know you care about our family. Since you started listening to this podcast, it’s been damaging to our family.” And use subtle ways of maintaining the status quo and not having her see what’s really going on. Here’s a really good example of gaslighting that I heard recently in my particular faith. You can say certain things, and in general the culture is like, oh, I know what’s going on. And one man called all his wife’s friends, all her family, and everyone, and said, Could you please pray for her? She’s struggling right now with her faith. Which wasn’t true at all. But all he had to do was say that. To all the friends and family, and say, she just needs extra prayers because she’s really struggling with her faith. And, she’s feeling apart from God right now. And so she could use your help. ## Weaponizing Healthy Communication With Lies **Anne:** And that was so undermining, because then when she went to friends and family for help. They were like, oh, if you’re struggling with your faith, maybe that’s why you want to leave. Maybe that’s why you’re saying this stuff, because he’s such a nice guy and wants everyone to pray for you. So these really subtle ways. I am concerned with abusers who are learning. healthy ways of talking through therapy, through books. Abusers gaslight by weaponizing it, but they sound like they’re saying the right things sometimes. And it is intended to continue to oppress women, that’s what we see here a lot. And that’s the main thing I want to warn women about. **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** Yeah, I think this is fascinating, because I think you’re talking about, as you say, like a level of skill here and intelligence here. From the perpetrator’s side, where they’re either learning to mirror, as you say, healthy ways of communicating. Where they’re actually weaponizing them successfully. Or they are generally quite intelligent, people anyway. So they’ve learned over a period of time that they don’t need to use physical violence to have total control. And to completely destroy somebody and keep them exactly where they are. Because for some perpetrators like that, they know not to cross that line. They know that if they left a mark on you or did something physical, that would all give you a way out. And like you would identify what was happening, but if they can keep you in this place. That is constantly undermining you. But doing it in a way where you can’t even completely be sure that’s what they’re doing. ## Abusers Use Gaslighting To Manipulate Professionals & Systems **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** That is a really difficult place to live as a woman. You know that you can’t figure out exactly what’s happening to you. Because you’re not a hundred percent sure that is happening at all. And in terms of how this relates to my work, the closest I can get to this and my experience is that I see a lot of men. That do the whole telling the family, telling the doctor, telling the counselor, I’m really worried about my wife. I think she’s struggling with her mental health. She needs some support, and we need to be there for her, because she’s struggling at the moment. I think she should be referred into the mental health service, so that she can get the right medication. The right help and treatment. And it’s obviously all part of the manipulation. Because once you frame her as having a mental health issue, everything can be covered up. Everything she says can be denied. Everything she says can be belittled or brushed away. I worked years ago on a helpline, and I remember a woman ringing. She’d been having therapy with us on and off for a couple of months, and it was going really well. She was getting ready to leave this guy, and then he turned up at the center, and the service with a secret address. I don’t know how he found us, but he did, she wasn’t actually in there at the time. I think she might have been at work . And he turned up, and he played this sort of oh, I’m so glad I found this service. And I’m concerned about my wife, I just feel like I need to talk to one of you. ## Abusive Strategies: Lies & Deceptions **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** And I just need to give you this information, She’s not been taking her medication. She’s on these antidepressants and antipsychotics, and I’m worried she’s not been taking her medication. I’ve been telling her every day she needs to take it, and she’s been getting delusional. And she’s thinking things aren’t real. I’m listening to him thinking, yeah, right. As if, I’m going to believe that. She’s lucky that he came across somebody like me, because I could see right through this guy. He deliberately set her up. So it sounded like all her disclosures to us were because she wasn’t taking this medication. I knew what he was gaslighting us doing, and he did it in such a way, like he cried. I’m so worried about my wife, and I just want the best for her. I knew exactly what he was doing. But it worries me that so many of these perpetrators who approach it in this way are good at manipulating professionals. Aren’t they? **Anne:** They are. The most common situation where a husband is gaslighting his wife here at [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/) is that they manipulate their victim through the Pornography Addiction Recovery Industrial Complex. Which is what I call it. They’re found out for their use, for example, or their affairs or soliciting prostitutes, you know, addiction therapy. And then they start telling people, yes, I’m a addict and getting treatment. But now I’m just concerned about my wife. She also needs to get help, because she’s experienced this traumatic event in finding out that I’m an addict and needs help. And everybody’s like, oh yeah, she needs to work on her side of the street. ## Manipulation Through Addiction Recovery Programs **Anne:** She is gaslit because she is told she needs to go to S-Anon or COSA because she’s codependent. And then she has to go to “treatment” too for his addiction. In the meantime, she’s emotionally and psychologically abused. Trying to “care for” her husband, who is “sick” apparently. I’m using quotes for sick, because he’s got this sad addiction. And she is not seen as a victim of abuse. Like she’s not been able to give consent for her relationship because she didn’t even know anything about this. She’s been lied to, deceived emotionally and psychologically abused the whole time. It is bad. And she’s getting that from the addiction therapist. She’s getting it from maybe marriage and family therapists. And she might also get it from clergy. It just gets super hard to see what’s going on. When you have what seems like all these professionals and people who seem to care about you. Trying to hold your family together, as the glue, because you’re kind of healthy in this situation, but you’re almost as sick as he is. And he’s not bad, he’s just sick. Okay, it reminds me of that section in *The Maid*, the Netflix show. When the dad is trying to say, he’s not the enemy, the alcohol is the enemy. Do you remember that part? **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** I haven’t seen that, but that makes a lot of sense. It feels familiar. It’s the type of thing that you hear a lot, the example you just gave. I think that’s another way that we force women to take responsibility for men’s actions and abuse. It’s like a way of roping her back in and being like, you’re also a problem, and you need to work on this stuff too. ## Women’s Need Safety Not Accusations **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** And it’s like, at what point are women allowed to go, do you know what? No, absolutely not. I’m not working on anything. This isn’t my problem. These weren’t my actions or choices. I’m not getting involved. He needs to deal with his own problems, and needs to take full accountability, which means not spreading that accountability to me. **Anne:** Yes. This man is currently psychologically and emotionally unsafe. I need to distance myself from this. Because his continued gaslighting, lying about me, deceit and manipulation, even if it sounds nice. Is emotionally and psychologically violent to me. It is harming me. Some pornography addiction recovery therapists, for example, will require a woman not consider divorce for a year. Until he’s been in treatment, rather than saying, okay, you’re currently unsafe. Many abuse professionals think that divorce, oh, we just got to get her out of there. And I’m like, well, that also doesn’t solve the problem. I was severely emotional and psychologically abused post divorce for eight years, because I share kids with my abuser. And all the women listening, that’s why they’re afraid of getting divorced too. Because they think, maybe I can manage it better, and I’ll actually be safer if I remain married. But then try to set up boundaries in marriage. Maybe I can make sure my kids won’t have to go every other weekend. My kids will be safer. So women have to make these strategic decisions about what will give them the most emotional and psychological safety. ## Coercive Control In The UK vs The US **Anne:** It’s really tricky when professionals, the court system doesn’t understand. The UK is way better than America in understanding coercive control. So that’s good news for you guys. **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** Yeah, well, I’ve got quite a lot of colleagues in the US, and we have many conversations that go along that route. Until I explain what it’s actually like here. And they’re like, oh, I see. Because a lot of it’s lip service, don’t get me wrong. The academic understanding is there. We have a definition of coercive control. It’s included in law. It’s accepted as a thing, so yes, I accept that we’ve made progress there. When you actually attempt to demonstrate or prove coercive control, or you need to help a woman clearly being coerced. And if you are in a psychological, emotional, abusive relationship with somebody, you will get the same sort of dismissal. Not believing her, pushing back, reframing her as the problem. Then making her take responsibility and telling her that they need to get therapy together. The whole system gaslights her into thinking it’s her fault. I don’t know, I think we’ve done similar things recently in the UK around misogyny. Where some police forces say, oh, we should charge these men with misogynistic crime. **Anne:** Oh, like, a hate crime? **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** Yes, exactly. So it’s misogynistic hate crime. So that would include coercive control and domestic abuse. Essentially, they can say that the misogyny aggravates it. Then it makes the sentence heavier. It makes the system almost work better. But the problem is that all sounds brilliant, but it just doesn’t work in real life. ## Combating Biases Among Professionals **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** Most of these professionals, whether they’re working in family court or in police, whether they’re social workers or whoever. They couldn’t even define misogyny. Most can’t spell it. They don’t know what it looks like. They’re misogynistic themselves. Also, and I always make a point of saying this, statistically, these professionals working in these environments are just as likely to be abused. Especially the women are going home to an abuser at the same rate as the public. The research suggests that professionals in these roles are as likely to be abused as their clients. And that means the men in those roles are just as likely to be perpetrators as men in the general population. This means they have their own biases, experiences and issues. They have their own conclusions and self blame, which they put on women trying to get help. **Anne:** Abusers gaslight and manipulate the system. Right now I have a friend, her soon to be ex has a protective order. And her victim advocate says, “You need to report these additional crimes he’s committed.” She’s trying to get divorced from him, and her family court attorney says, “No, do not report it. Because then you’ll look bad, and it will affect your divorce negatively.” She’s getting different advice from two law professionals. The two judges working for the same county will view her domestic abuse completely differently. Though they work for the same county, and both are supposed to be on the side of justice. **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** Yeah, this happens in the UK as well. The way you’ve just described that, if somebody outside our field of work listened to that, they’d be like, that’s ridiculous. That’s because it is, but that is what we’re seeing here too. ## Abusers Gaslight & Manipulate In Family Court **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** So it’s this sort of like, don’t bring up the abuse, don’t report the abuse when you’re going through the divorce. Or the custody type hearings or child contact hearings, because it’ll make you look bad. It makes you look like you’re accusing him, and it’s going to make everything harder. But, you have a right to report that stuff to keep you safe and if you wanted to. And it’s appalling that you have to almost play a game to try and keep you and the kids as safe as possible, which could actually mean you can’t even report what you have a right to report. It’s, it’s just wild. And like you say, these are judges sitting in the same areas. In the same courts, we are supposed to work towards the same aim, which is justice, safety and protection. It’s impossible to do this. While so many women are terrified of going through, as you say, the divorce process, a custody process, a family assessment process. Because they know that their ex or partner will successfully manipulate every professional in that case. **Anne:** These types of abusers do not respect civil divorce decrees. They just do whatever they want, because if they don’t do something in the civil parenting plan, for example, it’s very difficult to enforce it. Whereas a protective order or other criminal things are easier to enforce. So my opinion is currently to report. Go with what the criminal people say, rather than the divorce people. Because the criminal prosecution and criminal action could actually have a consequence that could keep you safer than your divorce decree. That’s my current way of thinking about it. ## Abusers Gaslight With Parental Alienation Accusations **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** That’s interesting. I would be inclined to agree on paper with what you’ve just said. I also accept how tentative you’re about it, because I get that totally. In the UK, for example, lots of women are going through this where they keep trying to tell the truth in their divorce hearings. And their child contact hearings, and things like that. Then what happens is that the whole thing gets flipped over on them, and they’re the abuser and fabricating it. Abusers gaslight in the court system by making accusations of parental alienation. They accuse victims of fabricating abuse and things like that. And then suddenly those women are like, oh my God, it’s me on trial now. And I did not expect this to happen. I’ve worked with women around the world. I worked with a woman a couple of years ago in Australia who went through exactly this experience. And then suddenly she realized this case had been turned upside down. Suddenly it was her on trial, not him. Then they decided to remove her access to her daughter, and said she was an unsafe mom. And that she was lying about this coercive control, lying about the abuse. And that by continually talking about it, bringing it up, and trying to report it, she was actually going to harm the little girl, and all this sort of rubbish. **Anne:** She was taken away from her. **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** She was removed completely, and she had no access to her whatsoever. They refused to give her even contact and access. I’ll tell you about this story just because it has a good ending, thankfully. The little girl was removed just before Christmas, and I honestly thought that that woman would end her life. ## A Case of Manipulation & Control **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** She texted me several times and was like, “I can’t do this. I’m not living without her. I don’t know how this went so wrong. I just wanted to divorce him. And I would have been happy with shared contact. I don’t know how this happened, and it just changed her life, and he did all this out of control and spite. How do abusers gasllight? He had no interest in being a full time parent to that little girl. Not a chance. He was a businessman, out and about all the time. He was always traveling, had absolutely no interest in that child. So he did it purely to harm his ex wife, and within a few months that child had been palmed off. To child care, nannies, nurseries, schools and after school clubs. The kid never saw her dad, and it was only after a few months of school reporting. She’s not getting picked up, she’s not being looked after. She’s not looking well and is ill, and then he moved her out of the area. Nobody knew where this child had gone. And I was so gobsmacked and blown away that something happened. I don’t know how it happened. The woman got a good lawyer, and they actually got that child back and fully removed from the man. So the little girl is now like eight, and they’re doing really well. They’re super happy, but the horror that woman has been put through. **Anne:** And the child. **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** Yeah, absolutely, the little girl. And I know it took ages for the little girl to recover from all that trauma. ## Abuse Recovery & Trying To Moving Forward While Still A Victim **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** I remember speaking to the woman a few times, and she was like, she’s not the same anymore. I was like, you have to give her time. You’ll have to be there and give her time, because she’s been through life changing. And she, I remember her saying to me, do you think she’ll grow up and remember this? And I said, yes, likely. It’s likely. At that age, she will have memories of all this. And she said, I hoped she wouldn’t have any memories, and she’s young enough not to have any memories. I know, I think, she will at that age. **Anne:** I’m reminded of another story of a woman who had a 6 month old and was not married to the man, and actually crossed from Canada into the US to escape him. Then he fought her, fought her, and fought her, saying she kidnapped the kid and all this stuff. And was in court the whole time. And she was terrified. So she stayed in America, and tried to fight it in court. She ended up having brain cancer and dying. And the second that she passed away, he stopped all the court stuff and didn’t want to see the daughter. **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** Oh my God, that’s horrific. **Anne:** Yeah, so she basically, I think it was until her daughter was 11, maybe, was in court just with this awful, awful court case. The daughter would have to go and be with him in Canada for him. I mean, it was so bad. And the second that she passed away, he was like, oh, nevermind. I don’t want to see my daughter. ## Abusers Gaslight With Guardianship & Control **Anne:** Her husband, the woman’s husband, who was a good man and was trying to help her figure it out. He is now the full time dad. She calls him Dad, and he’s the one who takes care of her. But they’ve never wanted to file for adoption or anything, because they’re just too afraid that, I think he is her legal guardian, but they’re too afraid that he’ll say no. **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** Abusers gaslight continually? He probably will. He’ll probably say no, just purely out of control. **Anne:** It’s interesting though, because he works pretty well with the husband now that she died. He’s like, oh yeah, no problem. Yeah, he signed the stuff for the legal guardianship. **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** Is that misogyny? Or is it that he feels like he won in the end, and she died. **Anne:** Because he killed her. **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** Yeah, if that’s what he wanted, as soon as she died, he would be like, now I get full custody of my kid that I’ve been fighting for for eleven years. **Anne:** He would be on the plane. **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** Yeah. **Anne:** That day, like, if that were me, I’d be on the plane. Like, oh, this thing I’ve been praying for has happened. Oh, we’re finally reunited. I’m so grateful to have you. **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** Oh, absolutely, it is a big power game. Oh that’s an awful case. Women are just going through so much. And the system is failing them left, right, and center. ## The Core Of Abusers using gaslighting Is Gaining Power **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** It speaks to what is at the core of emotional, psychological abuse, and coercion. It’s all about power. How do abusers gaslight? It’s all about breaking you down and being able to control you in the way they want. It makes sense that if that is the way they think, behave, and what they get out of that. Then they will continue that, whichever way they can. And like, as you say, for those of us with children with perpetrators, which includes me. It’s very difficult. Abusers gaslight to gain power. You realize you are attached to these perpetrators for, in some cases, the rest of your life. Because, you’ve got kids with them. And like in a good scenario, just until your kids are like 18, 20 years old or whatever. And that you can completely cut off, but in reality, you never can completely escape those perpetrators. You’re attached to them for a very long time, and they’re perpetrators. They’re going to find ways to harm you over the years, even as those decades pass. And you can understand the amount of trauma that causes women who are attached to these perpetrators with children. It’s years and years of trying to keep yourself psychologically safe, trying to keep yourself emotionally healthy. Trying to move on, trying to process everything that happened when you were together. And the horrible, post divorce mess that many of us have gone through. And then years down the line, there are still things that crop up. ## Abusers Use Gaslighting to maintain control **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** Abusers gaslight, manipulate and control. There are still things that they might stick their oar in or be difficult about. Just examples, like getting a passport for your child so you can go on holiday. Or like, I don’t know, the fact that your kid needs somewhere to stay for a bit. Or wants to go to a different college or university, or, you know. And there are so many things. Or they might have a health problem and, like, you’re both, you know, required. I don’t know. It could be anything, but they will find a way to manipulate that situation so that they can play their power game all over again. **Anne:** James Clear, who wrote *Atomic Habits*, had this quote in his weekly email blast. And I thought it related to this. He said, “Ambition is when you expect yourself to close the gap between what you have and what you want.” And, “Entitlement is when you expect others to close the gap between what you have and what you want.” And I think that’s the heart of misogyny. They want a clean house or children, and expect women to close that gap. Instead of saying if I want my toilet cleaned or my children cared for, I need to do that. Right? I need to show up to the school and pick up my child. I need to give my child a good education and medical care. They think, I want to call the shots. ## Abusers Have A Heart Of Misogyny **Anne:** I want to say, these are the things I want, but then I want someone else to do all the work. I want to get what I want, and not have to actually do the thing. So had that man been able to have his wife pick up and take their daughter and do whatever he said. He would have been happy to have his daughter stay with his ex. Because she wasn’t doing what he wanted. And they weren’t acting the way he wanted them to. Then it was like, I’d rather hire someone else to do this, because he was not going to do it. If women listening are thinking, yeah, my husband wants me to be the stopgap in our “relationship,” right? I’m the one that needs to apologize. I’m the one that needs to be compliant. And I’m the one that needs to plan the stuff and ensure everything goes smoothly. But he just gets to call the shots and doesn’t have to do the work. That is a sign that the situation you’re in is emotionally and psychologically abusive, because he expects other people to close that gap. **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** It’s such an interesting quote, isn’t it? I really like it. And I think that entitlement also comes from the misogynistic belief of men as individuals. And also patriarchy as a culture that women are there to serve men. They’re there to be intimate with men. They’re there to look after men. So they’re there to care for every need of that man. And that when you step out of line, and it’s a very specific stereotype. ## The Role Of Women in Patriarchy **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** You have a very specific role as a woman in a patriarchy. You know, you’re supposed to be desirable, attractive and available. But not too desirable, attractive, or available. Because then you’ve gone too far the other way into an empowerment. And there’s a term in psychology in some research around this. Around sexualization of women called sexy, but not a slot. So it’s like, you’re supposed to be sexually available. You’re also supposed to be chaste. And you’re supposed to be everything that a man wants you to be. If he wants you to be almost like a virgin, then that’s what you are. If he wants you to be easy, that’s what you are. And if he wants you to be intimate with him every day, that’s what you are. If he doesn’t, and he wants you to only behave in a certain way, that’s what you are. That’s also a level of entitlement. That you are supposed to fulfill the role of the inferior woman at all times. And you’re supposed to do what you’re supposed to do. That includes being domesticated, so it means cleaning for him, cooking for him, and caring for his kids. Also be the family referee, secretary, and accountant. They’re getting it from wider society,and getting it from the media. They’re getting it from storybooks and fairy tales. Misogyny runs deep. And then we see it manifest in all these different behaviors and experiences that women and girls live through. And that sense of entitlement that you just talk about, I think, is a great way to explain it. ## Historical Context Of Women’s Rights **Anne:**The book, *The Woman They Could Not Silence* by Kate Moore highlights this. It is an incredible story of Elizabeth Packard, who endured immense trials in the 1800s. Due to her husband putting her in an insane asylum. It is amazing. But what struck me about her story. The story of women being basically property for most of history until the late 1800s, when they abolished coverture laws. Is that up until that point, this is like the late 1800s, women were property. Women did not have rights. A married woman couldn’t have her own wages, property, children and everything belonged to her husband. And so at least in America, the Emancipation Proclamation to free enslaved people was in 1863. And women in America were not emancipated from their husbands until the late 1800s, like 1890s. So 30 years after the [Emancipation](https://www.btr.org/can-you-emancipate-yourself-from-one-parent/) Proclamation, women are granted freedom from their husbands. That historical fact is very important. Just like, at least in America, everyone celebrates that emancipation date of enslaved people. Why are we also not celebrating 1891, when the state of Indiana passed a law ending coverture laws? Then I remember the biblical story of Jacob, and even in that biblical story. He works for seven years to purchase Leah. And then he works another seven years to purchase Rachel. The history of marriage is basically you own the woman. Marriage started to shift in the late 1890s from property to partnership. I think that’s an important part of the story. ## Legal Changes In The UK To Help Women **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** Do you know, I was so interested listening to that because In the UK, that law didn’t change until 1975, that you just explained. **Anne:** Yeah, wait, the coverture laws? **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** Well, it wasn’t technically called that. Up until 1975 in the UK, women were not allowed to get a mortgage or have their own bank accounts. There was discrimination that stopped them from getting things like their own credit card until 1975. **Anne:** Same thing in the US with credit cards, yeah. **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** Yeah, and then in 1995 or 1996, the law officially changed. So a woman didn’t have to perform what was known as wifely duties for the man in marriage. So if you were married to a man in the UK, there is no way you could be abused or raped by your husband. Because he owned you. So like you had to be intimate with him when he wanted, there was no way to report your husband for anything. Because you were his property. The law changed in 1995. And it was only after that year in the mid 90s here that you could actually report. Or even describe your husband as raping you or abusing you. Because prior to that, it didn’t exist. I was a kid then. So like, that’s… **Anne:** Yeah, me too. **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** You know what I mean? **Anne:** Wow, yeah. ## The Fight For Women’s Liberation **Anne:** I’m all for social justice and racial justice. And I’m so happy that we celebrate the Emancipation Proclamation in 1863. But why are we not talking about this? Why, why is there not a, like, Women’s Liberation Day in the UK in 1993? When women finally were liberated from slavery from their husbands? Like, that’s crazy that there’s not, like, a national holiday for that. **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** I ask similar questions in that misogyny is the last form of oppressive discrimination literally ignored. There are, I think, much bigger and more accepted movements around things like gay pride and around Black Lives Matter. People gaslight women to think that feminism, women’s rights, is seen as a joke. It’s seen as a bunch of women, they’re hysterical and emotional, and they’re moaning about everything and making out that their rights are being rolled back. It’s so interesting that we have framed women as so inferior and unreliable for so long that there is no equivalent movement. There is no equivalent, you know, like you say. There isn’t a day that marks how important it is that women were liberated from that form of abuse. And slavery in their relationships. There is no day to mark that. Isn’t it brilliant that in the 90s in the UK, we changed the law? And it meant men could not demand intimacy whenever they wanted. **Anne:** That’s literally a slave. **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** That sort of change in the law in the nineties in the UK is little known. Even professionals in this field, I’ll often talk to people in the UK and they were like, really? Is that, was it the nineties? I didn’t even know that was a thing. I didn’t know that was a law. ## The Lack Of Recognition Of Women’s Rights **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** I didn’t know there was any change, and it’s just not spoken about. It always makes me think about that. As we said, because this is only the 90s, it’s not a long time ago, it’s less than 30 years ago. That means there are women living in those marriages at that time. They were under that law at that time, which meant they had to give intimacy and essentially there was no consent. Was there? Because there’s no need for consent if marriage contracts require you to be intimate with a man. **Anne:** The perpetrators are getting smarter. It’s because for 5, 000 years they’ve had these entitlements to intimacy and household labor. That women were made or created to serve them. And now that that’s not politically correct, the actual genetics of it. When I say that, I mean the historical traditions the way they think have not actually caught up with it. So instead of respecting women and actually seeing them as equals. They’re like, we have to maintain this power structure somehow. Because it works for us, but we cannot be so overt about it. We have to be subtle, we have to use the right words. We have to act like we respect women, while still maintaining the ability to exploit them. That’s why it’s very difficult when you have a professional husband who is educated and smart and wants to look good to his neighbors. He wants to show up at church and look great. He wants to show up at the community meeting and be the good guy. They will gaslight and talk and act a certain way so that they maintain their power. ## Abusers Gaslight To Maintain Power structures **Anne:** Because they’re not going to maintain their power if they say, “Oh, women are here to serve me.” Everyone would look at them like, what? Like that’s not right. They’re maintaining it in different ways than in the past. **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** They’re learning to disguise it with gaslighting. They’re learning to make it sound more socially desirable and acceptable than those views and values. They’ve not gone anywhere, they’re learning how to communicate them. As you say, maintain their power and control without outing themselves. **Anne:** Exactly. At the same time, I have met so many healthy men who are not this way. I know from their actions, the way they treat me, and the way I feel around them. Like for my internal warning system, that I have actually more hope for men than ever, because I see the men who are healthy, who respect women. So that’s not to say this episode is all about how all men in the world are like this. I think another thing that hurts women is that women think all men are like this. So if they want to marry, they have to settle for an abuser, because there’s no other option. There are healthy men out there. And the more we understand what this looks like and feels like. The more we can recognize and separate ourselves from men who are dangerous to us in emotional and psychological ways from men who are healthy. And men who can be like a good partner or friend or someone who is not going to harm us. ## There Is Hope For Healthy Relationships **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** Hard one, because not all men are used to derail these conversations for women. The whole like, you know, not all men are like that, and they’re like, yeah, I know I didn’t say all men, did I? I mean, like you have to go back to people and go, but I didn’t, I never said that, so. Absolutely. We’re defending a point I did not make. **Anne:** Absolutely. The only reason I bring that up is because I hear many women say, well, I want to be married. And since there’s never going to be a man out there that will respect me. I’m going to stay married to this man. So that’s why I say that, but not to say it’s not a huge problem. **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** There’s obviously amazing men out there. There are, like I mean, some of the people in my life that are my biggest supporters. Who are there for me through things and help me so much, have been men. I’ve still got guys in my life that have elevated me, listened to me throughout my career, everything I’ve done. They’ve been the one at the back going, keep going. You’re amazing. You’ve got this. Like, I believe in everything you’re doing. They’ve listened, they’ve opened doors, and they’ve never ever made me feel uncomfortable. And I know 100 percent that is a safe guy. I know that I can feel it the same as you. These guys are out there. They are, but I think that for some women, the fear of being alone and living a single life terrifies them so much. That they’re always thinking, if I leave this guy, how am I going to find someone else? ## The Importance Of Self-Sufficiency **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** And actually, the first thing that needs to happen is you need to be safe and well on your own. **Anne:** Alone, yes. **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** Yeah. **Anne:** I think that thinking that you have to have a man is a misogynistic idea. **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** Absolutely, it is. It means you’re always scared. of living life alone. And there’s nothing wrong with that. I know loads of women who have been through long, abusive, hard marriages. Then they get to be 50 and 60 and going, “Do you know what? What am I doing? I’m wasting years here. I’m miserable. I don’t need to do this. I could be out there on my own”, and it terrifies them. But at some point something happens, and they say, Do you know what? Being on my own has got to be better than this. It’s got to be healthier than this. You know, it’s a big leap. It’s a big, scary jump. I had to make that, but I was much younger at 28. I remember that, and remember lying in bed and thinking, even if you are on your own for years and years and years. Or even for the rest of your life, it has to be better than living in this. You cannot stay in this. This is awful. This is destroying you. I meet women all the time who are going through that same thought process. But you’re right, then it comes down to, but what if I don’t find anyone? What if all men are dangerous? And what if I find another perp, and then another perp, and then another perp, and the thing is, that can happen. ## The Reality Of Abusive Relationships **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** I think the message I would want to get across is that it has nothing to do with you. That is not your fault, that is statistically just likely. Because there are so many abusive men, you are likely to meet another one. Even if you meet him for like one date, and he turns out to be an absolutely horrible, horrible person. You could meet him literally for two hours. Or, it’s a guy that you get into a serious relationship, and you’ve been together for a few months or years. And then you realize, Oh no, I am back in abuse. How has this happened? This guy has total control over me. How has this happened again? It doesn’t matter. It’s so common that you are likely surrounded by perpetrators. I think the fears of women who are thinking, but what if I never find a safe man to have a life with? I think they’re valid fears, aren’t they? **Anne:** I agree. I am not dating and I don’t want to date. I mean, if somebody came along, that would be fine. But my thinking, what if I can’t find a healthy man, is not even in my brain. There’s no worry in my mind or heart that I, “Won’t be able to find a healthy man”. If I don’t find one, great! I’m fine. I’m happy. I love being a mom. My kids are amazing. I love my career. I have really good friends, even just seeing the word romance gives me like, a little bit, it’s like a little bit creepy for me. ## Living A Fulfilling Life Without A Partner **Anne:** I’m just not that interested in it, but I would be interested in a partner if that person came my way. I do think women put themselves in danger when they think it’s a need. When they think it’s something that if they don’t get it, they’re somehow missing out. Because you can have a beautiful, wonderful life with amazing relationships with people that are intimate. But like, my relationship with my kids is beautiful, and my sister and my friends. And I appreciate that. So I just don’t want any woman out there thinking I need a man, or I’m not going to find one. You don’t need to find one. You can stand on your own two feet, and meet your own needs. And you can also meet other people, because you need people. You do need friends. You do need relationships. Finding a healthy partner is so overwhelming. That just seems impossible, that’s why I’m like, I’m not going to worry about that. **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** I’m not surprised at all. ## Dr. Jessica Taylor’s Books **Anne:** This conversation has been amazing. Learning to recognize gaslighting from abusers is such an important way to protect ourselves. Dr. Taylor has three books. They’re all available on Amazon. Check them out. Listeners may be the most interested in *The Indicative Trauma Impact Manual*, which can help you figure out yourself as a trauma survivor. You are responding to the abuse that you may experience, and that might help you reframe or understand your responses to abuse, rather than thinking that it somehow has something to do with you. Or that you’ve caused it. So that is *The Indicative Trauma Impact Manual*. Her other two books, which are also on Amazon, are *Why Women Are Blamed for Everything* and *Sexy but Psycho*. Dr. Taylor, thank you so much. **Dr. Jessica Taylor:** Yeah, thank you so much for having me and listening. And yeah, it’s been awesome. So thank you. And I’ll talk to you again. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast **Tags:** gaslighting --- ### [Teen Dating Violence: How To Help Your Daughter Avoid An Abusive Boyfriend](https://www.btr.org/teen-dating-violence/) **Published:** December 13, 2022 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Hope your daughter can avoid teen dating violence, even emotional and psychological? What you need to know. **Content:** Are you hoping to help your daughter avoid teen dating violence, even if it’s “just” emotional and psychological abuse? Anne Blythe, M.Ed. interviews Sid, a teenager, who shares her heart wrenching story with empowering tips for mothers of teens. Teen dating violence never happens without emotional abuse. The best way to avoid teen dating violence is to determine if there’s emotional abuse. Take this [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/) to find out. If you have experienced emotional abuse and need live support [attend a Betrayal Trauma ](https://www.btr.org/group/)[Recovery](/group)[ Group Session](https://www.btr.org/group/). ## Teens Dating Violence Can Start With Lying Sid shares that early on in the relationship, her abusive ex-boyfriend was kind, flattering, and romantic. The first red flag for her was that he told her a lie. Abusive relationships are often detectable by the presence of lying. If your teen’s dating partner is telling lies, it is a strong indicator that your teen may be a target of sexual coercion and abuse. ## Sexual Phone Calls Are Sometimes The First Signal Of Teen Dating Violence A teen may feel uncomfortable by the way her boyfriend uses sexually explicit language on phone calls, but she may not realize that this is a form of sexual abuse. Parents can open preemptive discussions with children who are not yet dating, or initiate discussions with teens who are dating, regarding the red flags of an abusive teen boyfriend. Teaching teens about [sexual coercion](https://www.btr.org/coercive-control/) is important, so they know what to watch for. **Here are some steps you can take to begin empowering your children to engage in healthy relationships:** - Educate teens about coercion, dating violence, and abuse - [Set boundaries with your husband](https://www.btr.org/how-to-set-boundaries-with-my-husband/) so your children can see your example. - Meet the people your teens date ## Transcript: Teen Dating Violence **Anne:** I have a special guest on the podcast today. It is my friend’s daughter. So my friend Dina runs Educate and Empower Kids. Many of you may be familiar with Educate and Empower Kids. It is a non profit that provides parents with education to teach their kids great online habits and healthy ways of interacting. And Dina called me to tell me about an experience that her daughter had. This is an important conversation to [help teens avoid abuse](https://www.btr.org/how-to-help-your-daughter-avoid-teenage-abuse/ "help teens avoid abuse"). So I’m actually going to have her share the experience. She is 18 years old. Let’s just start Sid with what happened. Can you please share your story? **Sid:** Sure, so I began dating a guy we’ll call him David. It was the end of my junior year of high school, and we only dated for about five months. It was a difficult experience for me, because of how he treated me. And the habits I learned from that experience of dating him. And I’ve also just begun noticing some patterns that he has with every girlfriend he’s dated. I know his current girlfriend and I just see a lot of the same things going on with her. I wish she would listen to me. I’ve shared my experiences with her, and it’s just drawn attention to them more to me. ![](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Teen-Dating-Violence-Warning-Signs.webp "Teen Dating Violence Warning Signs")## First Signs of Trouble **Sid:** So something I didn’t know before this relationship was that an abusive relationship is not just physical. Someone can hurt me emotionally by manipulating me and lying to me over and over again and that is. And I had never learned that before. I didn’t see it in my relationship until it was over. Other people told me how bad it was. So our relationship seemed perfect for the first month. David would send me poems, and he’d call me each night and tell me how amazing I was. And he dressed nicely and spoke well of others. He was close with his family and a strong member of the church, and he was smooth and ideal. Just the perfect social media looking boyfriend. I thought I found someone I could date for a long time, even forever. Until I found out that he lied to me about some things. The first big lie, he didn’t seem to care, and he kept making excuses until I threatened to break up with him. It wasn’t that I meant it to be a threat. It was just more like I told him that I was uncomfortable with that. And so, he had told me he hadn’t had sex before, but the truth was he had, and I was worried he would lie to me again. And, it wasn’t necessarily that he had done that before, it was just that he told me a completely different story. He fabricated this whole lie around it. ## Confrontation & Guilt **Sid:** And he practically begged me to stay with him, and he cried and just kind of made me feel guilty, like I was at fault. And so we stayed together and began to repair the relationship, but it wasn’t really repairing it. **Anne:** Sid, how did you find out he had lied to you? By the way for teens and adults, [lying is emotionally abusive](/is-lying-emotional-abuse/) in and of itself. **Sid:** We had a lot of mutual friends. Actually, I met David through another one of my friends, and she knew a lot about him. She had another friend who had dated him in the past. So I had two different, good friends that knew him well. And they informed me about it when I hung out with them one time. I was talking about him and how good things were and stuff, and how he related to me a lot. And how we had handled relationships in the past. Because we talked about that, and they told me that what I knew about him was actually not true, so they told me the real story. So I confronted him about it, just you know, to double check if they were lying. And at first he said they were lying. Then I went into more detail of what they had told me. He admitted to it, and told me it was true and he lied to me. **Anne:** What do you think would have happened if he had said, these two girls are liars, they’re not telling the truth? Knowing what you know about him now, obviously you wouldn’t believe him, but back at that point, do you think you would have believed him over your friends? ## Dating violence: Questioning David’s Character **Sid:** I think it would have made me question him and his character more, just because I trusted my friends more. They had told me they would have his old girlfriend, that he had had intercourse with, talk to me about it. Because they were both really close with her. I didn’t know her at all. But I know that I would have been able to find out the truth from those girls, and I would have trusted them more. Because they really didn’t have any benefit in me and David breaking up. They didn’t have a reason to lie to me about it. Whereas David had a big reason to lie to me about that, because he knew my standards and that they didn’t align with the things he had done in the past. After he like admitted to it and apologized, we had this big conversation about him not lying to me. He acted like it humbled him. And he wanted us to work on things and make it right. So we kind of went through that honeymoon phase, as people will call it, where everything was perfect again. He was very sweet and respectful to me, and there were always these little blips where he would be overly explicit with me, and I was uncomfortable with that. I didn’t want to do those kinds of things with him. And so, those were the only things going wrong. But I always overlooked them because of all the other flowery behavior he had. He would buy me things, and he would compliment me all the time. He acted like he cared. So, it didn’t feel like he objectified me as much, even though he really was. ## David’s Continued Lies **Sid:** After a month of that kind of behavior, I found out that he had lied again, and this time it was much more minor. Both lies were about things that had to do with other girls in the past. So this one was about one of those friends who had originally told me about what he had done with his other old girlfriend. And this girl had also previously dated him. So I had another friend from church, we’ll call her Mary. Mary is not part of the situation, but she knew David. She saw him flirt with another girl, and that other girl had dated him before. I was kind of friends with her, but not very close. This girl, Mary, told me that it made a lot of other people in the class uncomfortable. Because they all knew he was still dating me, but was acting as if he wasn’t with this other girl. So I asked David if he felt like he had been doing that. He, of course, said no, like, it’s friendly, it’s nothing like that. Mary sent me a picture of him with his arm around her, and this video clip of him massaging her neck. It wasn’t a huge deal, it was more like he kept being dishonest about it. Then further than that, he tried to make me feel guilty about accusing him of things. He was like, Oh, you’re accusing me of cheating on you. And you’re acting like I’m untrustworthy, even though I’ve tried to earn that back this whole month. So I just felt bad. ## Realizing the Truth **Sid:** And then he was like, Oh, you’re so judgmental. You’re always making me feel bad about stuff that I do, which at first I believed him. But I’ve talked to so many people and told them about it. And I was really unsure, because in the past, no one had ever said that about me. And so, I started to realize that that wasn’t true, but at the time, I felt like he was telling me the truth. He would say he didn’t lie at all sometimes, and then sometimes he would be super careful with his words. So that he could be vague and make it seem like I was the one who was wrong. And it’s confusing to explain, but instead of answering a question like, Have you had it before? With a response like, No, I am still a virgin. He would say, I don’t consider myself having had it with her. Or, I didn’t go all the way with her. And various other responses. So he made me feel guilty for his own mistakes by blaming them on me being judgmental. He made me dig into it and ask specific questions over and over, just to get a simple truth from him. **Anne:** Objectification can be the first step to committing teen dating violence. And maybe even then you didn’t get the truth, right? Even when you thought, okay, finally, I’ve hit the bottom of this. It still may not have been. That is emotionally abusive and teen dating violence. Sid: Yeah, exactly. I could only get the information that other people could prove to me. And to this day, I don’t really know all the things that he could have lied to me about. ## Teen Dating Violence: He Lies About Pornography Use **Sid:** Maybe it was really just those things that I had found out about just because he’s very good at hiding all the things that he’s done. **Anne:** Do you know about his pornography use? And how use can be associated with teen dating violence? **Sid:** I had never asked him before until he had told me he had sex before finally, and he admitted to that. He said something to me like, oh well that’s just who I am, like I can’t help that. I’m very driven or something like that and I was like, oh when did that start? I just made the assumption that he had watched it before because I feel like in other relationships I’ve had, there were circumstances like that. When they would act really explicit towards me, they would admit that, Oh, I’ve watched a lot of pornography, and it’s kind of affected how I see people. Whereas David would tell me, Oh, I’ve seen it before once or twice, just because I know everyone watches it. And I wanted to see what it was about, but I don’t watch it anymore. I’m not interested in that kind of thing. So, I am really unsure if he has watched a lot, but I would definitely assume just by the things he would say to me. He would use this dirty language with me, and I would ask him to stop. And he would tell me how it’s so common. And I felt like, those things are only learned from explicit material. **Anne:** You’re 18, so part of this podcast, I’ll teach you a little bit, but I’m sure your mom has talked about this. That, “I used to watch it, but I don’t anymore,” is extremely common for a current user. ## Acting as an obedient church goer **Anne:** That’s a common lie they say, which you probably look back now are like, yeah, he had to have kept using it if he was acting like that, right? And especially as an “obedient” church goer. I would say that’s a pretty clear sign that he was currently using. **Sid:** Yeah, when we were dating, he went to church a lot. And I’ve heard from other people now that we’ve broken up that he does not go to church anymore. He would kind of go on and off before we had dated. So I think a lot of the things he told me when we dated were to make me feel like he was a good church member. When in reality I don’t think he has a super strong testimony of it. It was just kind of all that show and that way of manipulating me into thinking that he was someone he’s not. **Anne:** Manipulation and control are tactics abusers and perpetrators of teen violence use. So tell me what happens next. **Sid:** As we were dating, I made it clear that my standards were that I didn’t want to have it before marriage or worry about knowing [when a marriage is over](/how-do-you-know-when-your-marriage-is-over/). I didn’t even want to do anything that would resemble any sort of sexual act. That would include any touching under clothing, rubbing up on each other. I was only fine with kissing or snuggling. ## Beginning of pushing boundaries **Sid:** On the phone is how it began. He would mention to me, like, oh, I want to do this to you, and he would insert some sort of sexual act. And I would tell him, okay, like, you can make jokes about that, I guess, on the phone. Since it seems like you’re already doing that. I would appreciate if you make it clear to me that you don’t really want to do that. I don’t want to do that. And he would say something like, oh, well, you’ll come along, or like, oh, you’ll want to later on. So it kind of put this idea in my head, oh, well, maybe I’m supposed to do those things. And I knew it was wrong from a church standpoint and from my standards. But it was hard, because he would talk to me like that so much. And I would definitely feel like I had to or like he didn’t feel like I loved him enough if I didn’t do that. There were a few times in my car before I dropped him off at home, we would be kissing. And then he would try to move his hand somewhere, and I would move it away at first. But he would try again, so it seemed like he kept trying every time he had a moment that he could. So eventually I would just slowly let it happen. Just these little things would slip. And I think the worst time it happened when there was real coercion would be a few months in. ## Dating Violence: He scared me **Sid:** We were kissing, and then I remember telling him no. He had started to take off some of my clothing, and then he started to put his hands in places where I didn’t want. I told him no out loud, and he pretended like he didn’t hear me. And so I said it again, and I pushed him off of me. I started to cry because it had scared me. He stopped and said he was sorry and didn’t hear me. But there was just this feeling in my gut that I knew he had heard me. I knew I had said it loud enough and that he was close enough that he had to have heard me. It was quiet. It was only us. I think that was my first sign that he didn’t care about me. After that day, when things went far a lot further than I had ever expected. We didn’t have it, but there were definitely things going on that day. I felt a lot of guilt, so I told David that I didn’t want to do anything like that ever again. And that I would prefer if we only had short kissing in a public place as I said goodbye to him, and that I didn’t feel comfortable. This was a phone call, and he kept saying, Oh, you know, that’s okay. I completely accept that. But from that moment on, he started to distance himself. And I noticed every day that he would just text me less. ## He distanced himself **Sid:** I didn’t see him super often, because he went to a different school than I did. Much of our relationship during the school year was texting and phone calls, besides seeing each other on the weekends for dates. And so, immediately that week, I noticed he texted me a lot less. I would know that he had a lot of free time and would deliberately not text me or call me at night. He would say oh, I can’t do that. I have this. So I assumed he was under a lot of stress. I made a lot of excuses for him, because I was too wrapped up in the relationship. I remember asking him about it, and he had turned it around on me. It was like Oh, I feel like you’re bored of me or like you don’t even love me enough. Like you don’t want to do any of this stuff. You don’t feel safe around me, and it makes me too sad. So I just saw a lot of this time starting to go away from me. He wasn’t interested in me as much. So one night, we were on a date. We were hanging out with some of his friends, and one of his friends made a joke like, oh, did you tell your girlfriend that you skipped school yesterday? And I didn’t care that he skipped school, but the night before we had been on the phone, and he had gone through this whole day at school talking to me about school and stuff as if he had been there. So I asked him, on the phone, you talked about school as if you were there. Did you not go to school yesterday? ## Blaming me & breaking up **Sid:** He was like, maybe we should talk outside. So I went outside, collected myself. And then he came out and we started talking. I just started crying. I was like, David, why do you continue to lie to me about things like that? That’s not even a big thing. Why did you feel like you had a lie to me? That just makes me feel like maybe you were doing something you shouldn’t be doing that day. Maybe there’s a reason why you’re not telling me. And he was again, Hey, you’re so judgmental. I just felt like you were gonna get so mad at me about this. So I shut down, I was like, I feel like we have a lot of problems, and you’re not helping to work on repair with me. I know you’ve been lying to me a lot about other things that I can’t find out about through other people. I can’t tell when you’re being honest with me. You lie straight to my face about things, and it makes me really uncomfortable. Either I need you to tell me that we’re going to work on this and need to actually make a plan. Or our relationship needs to end. And so he said, oh, we’re gonna make a plan. I was like, okay, I love you. All right, bye. And then he was like, I love you more. And I was like, I don’t think you do. Because you wouldn’t treat me like that if you did. He was like, you’re right. You love me more. I think we should break up. I lost motivation for you. He just started dropping all this stuff on me. This was teen dating emotional abuse. I lost motivation a few months ago. ## Teen Dating Violence: Discovering the Cheating **Sid:** We broke up and didn’t talk for a month. The biggest point for me was when I realized how bad I wanted [healing emotional wounds in relationships](https://www.btr.org/healing-emotional-wounds-in-relationships/), how bad our relationship was, when his ex girlfriend contacted me. She told me they were dating again and had gotten back together in August. And mine and David’s relationship hadn’t ended until October. I realized then that he was dating another girl simultaneously, cheating on me for a few months. And so me and his ex girlfriend and current girlfriend met up and we were talking about it. One of my other friends involved, she was one of the friends that had told me when he had lied to me the first time about having it. They were all kind of mixed up in that mess too. So the three of us girls were talking about it, and she’s still dating him. So she talked about how he treats her now, and it’s very similar and actually worse than how he treated me. **Anne:** Did she perceive it as dating violence and abuse? **Sid:** She did not. She perceived it as, Oh, it’s on me, just whatever traits he had told her that she has, that made him act that way. **Anne:** Oh, she was blaming herself. **Sid:** Yes, so she went into detail of all the things they’d been doing, and how she thought they had been dating for the last few months that I was still dating him. And I told her that’s a red flag that he cheated on me with you. And now you guys are dating. Like, do you not see that he’s going to do that to you? You know, she was like, Oh, maybe he will. I don’t know. Oh, you’ve given me so much to think about. ## Reflecting on the Relationship **Sid:** And it just struck me then. That’s how I would have been if I had found out something like that when I was dating him. Just because he seemed like he was this perfect boyfriend. He would do all these other boyfriend things, but when it came down to it, he didn’t care about me. And I only see that now that I’m out of it, whereas his current girlfriend can’t see that. **Anne:** Yeah, so this is typical of what wives of explicit materials users and cheaters are going through, all the gaslighting, lying and manipulation. But this is happening in high school for you. So I want to talk about what you learned from the experience with teen dating? **Sid:** After the experience and talking to other people, I realized that it’s not okay in a relationship for someone to be dishonest. First of all, and then second of all, to blame you for their own problems. And I also learned a lot about what I deserve, and that came through myself though. I wrote in my journal a lot after the experience, and during the experience, I had written some things too. Just when I asked questions, I felt self conscious about talking about some of the things in our relationship to my friends or even my mom. And after we broke up, I felt much more comfortable telling my mom everything. I went through it all, and she helped me learn about what an abusive relationship really is, and how what I had experienced could affect me. And so, I wrote in my journal a lot. I would write mostly what I wanted in a future relationship to make it better. ## This behavior is more common **Sid:** I really set a better standard for what I’m going to expect from someone, so that I won’t accept that kind of behavior again. The thing is, you can’t completely protect yourself from those experiences. I can’t say if I go to college, that I might not end up in a relationship like that again. But at least that way, I can recognize it and end it a lot earlier on. I think a lot of the damage I’ve taken with me affected how I viewed myself. I felt extremely hurt when I found out that he had completely lost interest and started dating someone else while he was dating me. And I felt completely inadequate as a human being, like, as if I wasn’t enough for him. Finding that self worth came a lot from Heavenly Father. Just from going to church, the temple, doing service, performing well in school, hanging out with my family and being with people I knew cared about me. Also becoming successful in a way that I valued. Some days it still hurts a lot. Some days I’ll see something on Instagram about him or his girlfriend. And it kind of brings some of it back. I feel sad about it. But I know that it’ll continue to fade away slowly for me, and that I’m continuing to heal every day from it. **Anne:** So this type of dating violence behavior is becoming more common. As more men embrace pornography, they objectify women more. They feel more entitled to their own abusive opinions, and other women’s bodie,s using them for their own purposes. Rather than actually caring about them. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## Dating Violence: Friends’ Experiences with Abuse **Anne:** Talk to me about your friends’ experiences. Have they experienced the same thing with other kids in your school? Let’s talk about what this looks like on the high school level. **Sid:** Yeah, I’ve had three friends with major problems, and of course I have friends with more minor abusive relationships. One of my friends, we’ll call her Jessie, was in a relationship with this boy in the ROTC program. And so was she, and so I knew them through some of my other ex boyfriends in ROTC. So this girl, Jessie, had been dating this guy for a long time, maybe six months. After prom, he wanted to have it, and she didn’t want to. So she had left in a rush. And the next day at school, she had been trying to go to the ROTC room for a meeting. And this young man came up, pushed her against the wall, yelled at her, and punched the wall next to her. It was definitely dating violence and assault. The ROTC instructor saw them and did not report anything to the school. I think only a few other students maybe saw it, and no one did anything about it. He didn’t lose his position in ROTC. I did not see any consequences. And this girl, Jessie, felt too scared to go to court. She didn’t want to go through all that process. Because she knew it wouldn’t fix the problem that much, as it would make it worse, cause more drama, and maybe he would react in a worse way to that. I just saw that fear in her, and I realized how sometimes you can feel helpless in those situations. ## Feeling Helpless & scared **Sid:** And how you can be really helpless, especially at school when there are people who won’t help you like they should. **Anne:** Yeah, what you’re describing is that a teacher witnessed an abuse episode in an abuse situation. And did not call it out for what it was or try in any way to keep the victim safe. That’s scary, super, super scary. And the most likely reason why is because they don’t understand abuse and teen violence. Not necessarily because they’re an evil person that likes abuse, but because they don’t know what it looks like. But that’s exactly what it looks like. And it’s happening on school grounds, and it’s happening everywhere. And tell me about your other friend. ## Another Friend’s Assault **Sid:** Another one of my friends, she had a boyfriend a long time ago. She’s in college now, but when she lived here and we were good friends. She told me how a year or two ago in her sophomore or junior year of high school. She had dated this guy for about a year when it was his birthday. And they had messed around and done a few things before, but not as severe. He wanted to have it, so she thought he might want to do that. She knew she didn’t want to, and she had told him beforehand that she didn’t want to have sex. But while they were kissing, it went further and further. She tried to stop him, and he forced her to have it with him. At first when things were kind of going on, she had been like, no, no, and he didn’t listen. And she realized he wasn’t going to listen and that he might hurt her if she didn’t go along with it. And so she didn’t go along with it, but she just said she was just present. So after that, she had gone to church and told her bishop about the violence. And she had felt a lot of guilt. She took it as though we had it, and I didn’t want to, but I felt like I had to. So, she went in and told her bishop about the situation, and he basically told her it was still her fault because they had done stuff beforehand, and he was her boyfriend, and that it wasn’t considered rape. ## Teen Dating Violence: Aftermath of Assault **Anne:** Wow, sorry, let’s just pause there, everyone. Wow! Okay. **Sid:** It was crazy, and she had felt a lot of guilt, and she was young for something like that to happen. And so she cried and she cried, and she continued to meet with that bishop and repent for it, as if it was all her fault for that situation. She and that boy ended up breaking up a while later, and then they got back together and were on and off. Her family ended up moving away, so she was completely out of that relationship situation by the time she told me the story. So she could look back. And I just remember her telling me that I needed to always remember that if someone ever tries to force me to do something, it’s not on me. And so that she had learned from other people that that was wrong, but how at the time she was so misled, so hurt by that. **Anne:** Does she know now that she was raped? Does she call it that? **Sid:** Yes, she does. **Anne:** Okay, and when she says that, does she seem confident about it? Is it hard for her to say? **Sid:** She doesn’t like using the word rape, but she does talk about it as an assault. I can tell that it makes her uncomfortable, and she obviously has only told a few people that were super close to her. I know it hurts her a lot still. It’s been hard for her. She’s dating someone now, but it took her a long time because that was a few years ago. ## Clergy’s Misunderstanding of Abuse **Sid:** She’s just recently started dating someone again, because the idea of being with another guy scared her. Even just a hug from a boy, would make her tense up a lot, and her heart rate would go up. She just felt a lot of fear from that. **Anne:** Yeah, for good reason. Wow, oh my word. That example you gave of clergy not calling it rape is so common and so detrimental to victims. And also doesn’t hold perpetrators accountable for their assault. The more we can educate women about this, in their hearts, they could know what happened and help educate other women about it. And that’s what this podcast is about today. Sid, for other teenagers who may or may not have experienced an abusive relationship, sexual assault or dating a pornography user. Either confirmed or secret user, what advice would you give them after your experience with dating violence and after what you’ve seen with your friends? **Sid:** I would say, first, set your standard, know what you expect from someone, learn what the signs are of an abusive relationship. When you’re in a dating relationship, you start to feel hurt by them in ways that you don’t understand. Talk to your family, talk to people you trust. Maybe people who have experienced things like that and see how they feel about it. Also, I don’t remember where I got this advice, but I think someone at church once told me. That if a friend told you a story, if you thought they were being hurt, then you would tell them, Oh, you need to break up with them. You need not be with them. And so you need to consider yourself your own friend. ## Educating about red flags **Sid:** If you were telling your story to someone else. Would they tell you not to be with them anymore? If your story was coming from a friend, would you tell them to stay with that person? Because I know for me, if someone told me the story of me and David as if it was them in that situation, I would 100 percent tell them that they should not be with that person. That what’s going on is not their fault, and that they’re being manipulated. With that knowledge, now I can clearly see that I should not have been in that relationship. Just becoming more educated on the red flags, so you can see it from the beginning. And keeping in contact with other people, what’s going on, update them, make sure you’re safe. **Anne:** Mm hmm. I’m so proud of you. So many times young women are so embarrassed, thinking, well, it is partially my fault, and I don’t want anyone to know. When they don’t realize they were coerced or even raped. And are victims of dating violence and assault. I’ve had several friends who were raped, and they didn’t call it that because they didn’t know that’s what it was. I’m so proud of you. ## Share this with other young women **Anne:** Thank you so much for coming on today and talking about teen dating violence. I appreciate your bravery and sharing your story. As you can tell, this episode is a good one to share with the young women in your life, to teach them about sexual assaults, to teach them about manipulation and lying, To help women understand abuse better, if you are on Facebook, please share this link so that we can educate everybody about this. For those of you who frequently share links to this podcast on your social media. Thank you. You are making a difference. And for those who make a recurring monthly donation to support this podcast. Thank you. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [What Is Exploitative? Dr. Gail Dines Exposes the Shocking Truth About THIS Industry](https://www.btr.org/what-is-exploitative/) **Published:** December 20, 2022 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Wonder why what your husband does online is so damaging? Here's why. **Content:** What is exploitative? A global industry that uses coercion and abuse to make money. Understanding how exploitative media harms women’s rights will help you understand what exploitative really means. Did you know that wives of men who exploit women are likely to be emotionally abused? To discover if you’re experiencing emotional abuse, take this **free** [emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ## What is Exploitative? Violence Against Women Understanding that exploitative media often depicts graphic violence against women highlights the reality that this is a human rights issue. There is a clear connection between exploitative media and violence toward women. Victims of the exploitative media and trafficking industry are women targeted and oppressed by perpetrators benefiting from systemic privileges. Women everywhere can unite to stand with our sisters who have been harmed by this insidious industry by recognizing exploitative media for what it truly is: a human rights issue. ## Transcript: What Is Exploitative? **Anne:** I’m so excited to have one of my absolute heroes on today’s episode. Her name is Dr. Gail Dines. Dr. Dines is a Professor Emerita of Sociology at Wheelock College. She has been researching and writing about this exploitative industry for over 25 years. Dr. Dines is the founding president and CEO of the non-profit Culture ReFramed, dedicated to building resilience and resistance in children and youth to the harms of exploitation. Culture ReFramed develops cutting edge educational programs that promote healthy development, relationships, and intimacy. Dr. Dines has been described as one of the leading anti-exploitation scholars and activists in the world. **Anne:** Welcome Gail. **Dr. Dines:** Pleasure to be here. **Anne:** I’m like starstruck right now. I’m so excited to have you on and grateful for the work you do. So let’s just jump right into this. Gail, why is exploitative media a feminist issue? And why is it a human rights issue? **Dr. Dines:** It was the feminist movement, especially the radical feminist movement, who first began to understand that we need to see exploitative media as a harms issue. This hurting real women [human trafficking survivors](https://www.btr.org/human-trafficking-survivor-speakers/ "human trafficking survivors"). And it had real world consequences on both men and women in the industry and outside the industry. It really grew out of the radical feminist anti-violence movement, where we began to see the relationship between exploitative media and violence against women. ![What Does Exploitative Mean](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-Does-Exploitative-Mean.webp "What Does Exploitative Mean")## The Challenges Of Embracing Feminism **Anne:** Some women are still uncomfortable with the word feminist. I’m trying to get everyone to be extremely comfortable with it, and to sit in it and realize that it’s a beautiful, wonderful thing. Do you have any advice for women uncomfortable with the notion of a feminist? **Dr. Dines:** Well, I would say for many women it can actually be scary to call yourself a feminist. Because you open yourself up to all sorts of criticism, ridicule, and caricaturing. In this society, to be a feminist is to fight back against male power. And whenever you resist being oppressed, the oppressor class comes after you. So I understand why some women are nervous and anxious about that. But if you want a full life, if you want to feel like you have power in the world. And sisterhood and the capacity to change the world, then the answer for women is to be a feminist and proud one at that. Hold your head up high. And wear that term with pride. **Anne:** I agree, I’ve taught my little four year old daughter to say, I’m a feminist, definitely. And also my six year old and my nine year old son. And it kind of makes me a little teary to think about when they say it. It’s so cute and I’m so proud of them. Why do some feminists or some women who call themselves feminists support exploitative media? **Dr. Dines:** I used to teach a whole 14 week course on this, so let me try and get it into a couple of minutes. ## The Third Wave of Feminism & Exploitative Media **Dr. Dines:** So, when you think about this feminism that grew out of the 1960s, 70s, and 80s. It was a given that if you called yourself a feminist, you were anti-exploitative media. There was no question. And then what happened around the 90s is that there was a sort of new movement, which we often sometimes call the third wave. Where what we call feminism lite or faux feminism was the idea that somehow, if you embraced exploitative media. Because the argument was that we’re never going to get rid of it. So let’s embrace it and use it in ways that empower us. I would argue it was really a capitulation to male power and the industry. And what’s happened is over the years, this view that somehow exploitative media can be empowering has taken hold, especially in academic circles. I think I need to say this, that the more privileged a woman is, and the further away she is from ever having to be in exploitative media to put food on the table for her kids. The easier it is to endorse it as empowering. It’s a privileged white position to say it, and I have to add in here, prostitution. Many of the same women who are pro-exploiation argue they’re pro-prostitution. It’s a privileged white position, because most of those women who have that argument are women of color. They are so far away from ever having to be in it or in prostitution. The first rule of feminism is to do no harm to women, and exploitative media is one of the most harmful forms of visual representation that we have. It delivers to men’s brains via the penis, a clear image of misogyny. **Anne:** Absolutely. ## It’s A Human Rights Issue: If You Are In It, You Lose Rights **Anne:** Why do you think they don’t realize they’re hurting other women? Dr. Dines: I think many students would come in with kind of pro-exploitation views. But it didn’t take long to get them to see the violence in it, and the impact on women in it. Women who date men who watch it and got their information about intimacy from it. When you think about it, who wants to be penetrated on camera by many men in violent, brutal, and ways where you lose rights to your image, bodily integrity, and bodily privacy? You know, so I asked my students, think about what it would be like if you had to do this to survive financially. And often I think what happens is we can theorize and theorize, but there’s something to be said for just plain, simple empathy. Put yourself in that position and say, would I want that for me? Would I want it for my friends? Would I want it for my daughter, my sister, my mother? And the answer is no. **Anne:** Yeah, absolutely. The men who support this stance simply lack empathy. Do you see it’s easier to persuade women to this stance than men? **Dr. Dines:** Yes, because when women look at exploitative media, they identify with the woman. So yes, in that way, you’re getting a visceral bodily reaction to what’s happening to her. ## Mainstream Exploitative Media Today **Dr. Dines:** But I have to say that when I give lectures to high schoolers, middle schoolers and university students. Many of them are young men, all of whom have seen mainstream exploitative media. Which we have to say clearly, mainstream online today is hardcore. That’s the only kind you get when you put it into Google, or through Instagram, Snapchat, or YouTube. This is what it is today. Mainstream is what, pre-internet, was considered hardcore. It was hard to find in shops. You had to know somebody who had that kind. Today, it’s free and accessible. It’s anonymous, and it’s five seconds away. So the shift from 2000 when the internet became domesticated to today is absolutely remarkable. And what happens is interesting. So I’ll go into say a college campus, and when I’m speaking, often there are hundreds of students. This starts with these male students, who you can feel their hostility towards me. It’s actually coming off them in waves. And they’re thinking, what the hell does this woman, this middle aged woman, know about it? I’m standing on a stage, so I’m watching their body language. And as I start to talk, it is amazing to see the changes. Suddenly, they begin to relax. ## Young Men Are Dragged Into The Mess **Dr. Dines:** They begin to reach out, and I have to say if they could reach out and touch me, they would. Why? Because I think many of these young men have been dragged into it. It is like a spider’s web to catch young men through algorithms and all sorts of ways of dragging them into it. They see images that they themselves probably would not want. I do not believe that when a 12 year old puts a body part into Google, thinks he’s going to see a world of brutality, violence, and torture. He’s probably thinking he’s going to see maybe breasts, maybe a vagina. He’s not prepared for what he’s going to get catapulted into. And I would argue that the industry is traumatizing a generation of boys. And many of these boys who grow up into young men, who I’m meeting colleges, feel deep shame about what they’re watching. They want to stop watching it. Some of them are habitual or addictive users. And they are so grateful that someone has come in and said, is this who you want to be? A guy who gets aroused to images of violence against women? And for many of them, the answer is no, they don’t want that. They’ve just been pulled into this trap that this predatory industry has laid for them. To suggest boys or men are on the hunt for violent misogyny. As a somehow biological imperative of masculinity, it is to lower the bar about men. And it’s to say boys want violence. Maybe there’s maybe a hiccup in masculinity that they want violence. I would argue that’s anti-male because I truly believe men do not want this, or boys certainly don’t want this. ## Exploitative Media Harms Women In Every Way **Dr. Dines:** I believe men and boys are born equal to women, with all the capacity for humanity and empathy. And I believe that as a sociologist, feminist, and most profoundly as the mother of a son. My son was not born violent or with a desire for violence. This culture certainly wanted to turn him into that, but I know he was born with all the capacity for love, empathy, and connection that women are. And if my son was born that way, then your son was born that way. So we need to think as feminists, as men’s best friends, the ones who say to men, we have faith in your humanity. We will fight for that humanity, because the industry is about destroying it. First of all, I think there is a moral issue, and this is not from a religious position. This is more from a feminist position, it is a moral issue, because it harms women physically, emotionally, and in every way. So I don’t think we need to say it’s not moral, but what we also need to add is that it’s a civil rights issue, because it undermines the civil rights of women. You cannot have a society based on equality if you have this exploitative industry. This industry we’ve got today teaches men that women are a subhuman category. That women exist to be used and abused, women are just objects to be discarded when you’re done with them. And the civil rights of women cannot be fully achieved when men are trained to think of women as subhuman. ## The Civil Rights Impact Of Exploitative Media **Anne:** And we see that with our community. Our community is all wives of users who have been abused by their husbands. And wonder if their [marriage is over](/how-do-you-know-when-your-marriage-is-over/). They are being harmed significantly because of their husband’s abusive views. Many don’t understand [what marital coercion](https://www.btr.org/what-is-marital-coercion/ "what marital coercion") is. I like to think that these men were born as empathetic, good people, and that they have become unable to empathize through their excessive exploitative media use. And because of that, their behavior becomes abusive and scary. It’s hurting families and women. **Dr. Dines:** Oh, absolutely. Studies show that women who are partnered with men who are users feel greater betrayal than if their husband had an affair. So the level of pain, humiliation and shame that women feel when they find out their husband is an addict is profound, and nobody’s speaking about it. **Anne:** Yeah, I guess, except me, right. What we’ve found is the trauma isn’t just from finding out about their [husband’s cheating](https://www.btr.org/cheating-husband-says/ "husband's cheating") and use. The trauma is from all the abuse, the emotional and psychological abuse they’ve suffered for years. And women are often [blamed for the emotional abuse](https://www.btr.org/blamed-me-for-the-emotional-abuse/ "blamed for the emotional abuse"). It’s mind blowing. **Dr. Dines:** Toxic secrets, what’s interesting is that I meet many, many women wherever I go. I can have my hair blown out, sitting on a train, or interviewed, and many women I speak to tell me about their partners and what it feels like. And that now, once they realize what’s going on, they look back, and we always say, hindsight’s 20 20. They saw cues, but didn’t join the dots. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## Recognizing The Signs Of Addiction **Dr. Dines:** And I would say, first of all, there are many cues to look for. The first thing I would argue is that when you’re living with somebody in a relationship. There should be no password protected devices that you don’t have access to. That’s a big clue. If you cannot get on to your partner’s cell phone, computer or laptop, and don’t know the password, that’s a red flag. Also, if suddenly his interest starts to wane or he’s asking you to do stuff he’s never asked you to do before. Many women say I began to see a difference in him. He acted, felt, and spoke differently. So looking back, they realized there were clues, but of course they didn’t pick up on that. It didn’t occur to them. They were unaware of how big a public health crisis this is. Of course, then comes the enormous pain. This man you’ve lived with, loved and probably had children with, has this awful, subtextual life. That you did not know about, but it’s poisoning your own life, relationship, and family. **Anne:** Yeah, and that’s why we here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery actually see it as a consent issue with wives of users. They are unaware of what is going on, so they can’t give their consent in that situation. Because they’re being lied to in their most intimate relationship. So it is an abuse issue, an emotional abuse issue and a consent issue. We’re trying to help people understand that, so they can view its use with the lens of severity that it deserves. **Dr. Dines:** Yeah, I don’t think any woman should consent to her husband or partner using it. ## A Consent Issue In Relationships **Dr. Dines:** And you know what was interesting is that many women I speak to say, well, you know, we watch it together. We don’t watch the violent stuff. And I say, well, that’s what he watches with you, but he watches completely different stuff when you’re not there. So I would say, first of all, even if you watch it together and think that’s a way to ensure there’s no secrets, there’s a ton of secrets behind that. Because when you leave that house, or when you’re not there, what he’s watching is different to what you’re watching together. And, even if it’s not hardcore, still, the question becomes, why does he need to watch it? Right? **Anne:** Yeah, absolutely, when I say consent issue, I don’t mean it in that context. The context in which I mean it is that you expect the relationship to be free of it. He’s using it, and he’s not telling you about it. There’s the consent issue. If he said to you, I will use exploitative media, whether you like it or not. Even though you say I don’t want this in my relationship, I’m going to disregard it. I will do it anyway. secretly behind your back. Then she could give her consent to be in the relationship, right? She would say, Hmm, I don’t want to be with a man like you. No, thank you. But when they lie to her face and say, I’m not using it. No, I would never do that, and they are, that’s what I’m talking about. That’s a consent issue. Men don’t realize that when they lie to a woman about it, they are not obtaining her consent. **Dr. Dines:** They’re betraying everything. ## Lies & Gaslighting By The Industry **Anne:** So that’s the context in which I brought that consent issue up. Let’s talk about the lies that the industry tells people to gaslight them. Can you talk about what types of lies they are using to manipulate and gaslight people into viewing it? **Dr. Dines:** Oh, well, they have a multi-billion dollar well oiled PR machine to perfect these lies. First of all, they argue it’s harmless. No one’s getting hurt. It’s a victimless crime. It has no effect. Lighten up. If you don’t like it, it’s your problem. This is the discourse that the industry has sold to women and men. But specifically to women. If you don’t like it, then there’s something wrong with you. I mean, there’s even male sexologists who write for *Psychology Today*, and different outlets who say if your husband or partner is using it and you don’t like it. You have to ask yourself, what’s wrong with you? What’s your problem? That is utter gaslighting of women. As if it’s your problem, that you don’t want your husband masturbating to images of violence against women, and you’re the one with the problem? It’s insane. But the whole culture is pro-exploitation now. For *Teen Vogue*, and why they called it sex work, I would not call it that, I’d call it prostitution, is a choice for women. That’s coming from the teen magazines, and then you’ve got films, shows on TV. ## The Profit-Driven Nature Of Exploitative Media **Dr. Dines:** Everywhere you go. You’ve got this consistent message that it’s part of being hip, being woke, and being cool. That you, you prude you, you’re the one who’s got to figure out why you’re not, and they say anti-sex. In fact, I can’t think of any group that’s more anti than the producers of it. They hate it, they’re not into it, they’re into profits. I went to the exploitation convention in Las Vegas, and when you go to their workshops, we got passes to get into the workshops, and no one’s talking about it. Everyone’s talking about money. I went to one, like, unbelievably boring session about what’s best, bulk emailing versus targeted emailing. It was as if they were selling toothpaste. And this was interesting. It was downstairs, there are two floors. That is where they have their meetings and talks about selling exploitative media like any other business, and upstairs were the fans. So I went upstairs and downstairs, and interviewed both groups. The fans kept saying to me, it’s fun, it’s just lighthearted. And I wanted to say to them, you know what? Come downstairs with me and sit in these seminars, because no one’s having any fun. They’re all thinking about ways to get as much money out of you as possible. This is not about fun. This is about profit. And if you took the profit out of the industry, it would collapse tomorrow. No one’s doing this because they love intimacy. No one’s doing this because they want us to have a fun life. They’re doing this to maximize profits. ## The Dehumanizing Effects of Exploitative Media **Dr. Dines:** And the result of their maximizing profits is a bankruptcy of emotion, connection, intimacy, and of what it means to be human. **Anne:** I love how you say that. It is so degrading to humanity in general. So let’s talk about what you said. We know that people who are opposed to exploitation are not sex negative. What word would you use rather than positive? Because today, if you say I’m positive, people think you would like exploitation, and hookups are good. Describe what that means, and how that may help or hurt people. **Dr. Dines:** Well, the term has been co-opted by the pro-exploitation crowd. I think it’s a real problem, because those who are against exploitation are, by definition, negative. What I always say is I am pro, and that’s why I’m anti-exploitation. You can’t be pro-porn and pro-sex. You have to pick one, and I’ve picked being pro-intimacy. And when I say pro-sex, I am pro healthy, creative, fun intimacy that you are the author of. Not a where a group of creepy men who are out to maximize profits decide what is the best act to degrade and debase a woman to maximize profits. We’ve got to think about it as an industry. Like all industries, it will do whatever it takes to maximize their profit. If it takes completely destroying a woman’s body, which they do all the time. If it takes giving her, I don’t know how many STDs. Because we know from studies that women get gonorrhea of the eye, chlamydia of the anus, all things you don’t normally hear. If you think about what it does to women’s bodies, then how can you possibly call it positive? ## Healthy Intimacy Vs. Exploitative Abuse **Dr. Dines:** So what we want to talk about is what does it mean to be the author of your own sexuality? What does it mean to have fun experimentation and creativity? And that is none of my business. What is of interest to people in what as long as it’s not hurting anyone, consensual, and doesn’t involve violence. Then people should develop any they want. Often when I go into lecture. People say to me, well, if we don’t use it, what should we do? And I say, well, look, if I was coming here to speak against the fast food industry, you wouldn’t say to me, what can I eat? And I wouldn’t give you recipes, because I don’t know what you want to eat. You figure out what you like to eat. Figure out what flavors you like. Figure out what you want to cook. You go and experiment, but don’t ask me to tell you what to eat. Same thing with intimacy. I don’t know what’s going to interest you, but again, as long as it’s consensual, non-violent, and based on an egalitarian intimacy, go and have fun. **Anne:** Yeah, I love you, thank you. I hope that women listening can gain more confidence in knowing that so many people in the world are behind you. Who support you and say exploitation is wrong. You do not have to put up with it in your relationship. **Dr. Dines:** Yeah, I understand that women have been completely caught in this net, just as men have. But for women, it’s often worse, because you often have a family with this guy. You have a mortgage to pay. In a way, you’re trapped in this. ## If Your Partner Doesn’t See This As A Problem, You Can’t Stay **Dr. Dines:** So what I want to say to women is that you cannot live with a man who is a user. And also have a sense of bodily integrity, of loving your own body, and a sense of a healthy intimacy. The two just don’t go together. So you have to figure out how you’re going to deal with this. And one way, which is not always so great, is to figure out therapy with the guy. But often a lot of intimacy therapists make it worse, rather than better. Because they will be on his side. If your partner is not willing or does not see this as a problem, then you cannot stay. You can’t do that to yourself. You cannot give up that part of yourself that says this is wrong. Because you will look back in 10, 15 years, 5 years, and you’ll look in the mirror one day and wonder, Who am I? What have I become? And what is my life? You don’t want to do that. And plus, if you have kids, you do not want your kids around this toxic life of a man using it in the home. First of all, it puts them at risk. And secondly, you want your kids to be healthy. And if their father or whoever the man they’re living with uses it, ultimately, it will seep into their lives on every level about who they are. For girls, it will have a whole set of messages about what it means to be a girl. For boys, a whole different set of messages. And kids are very savvy. They pick up things that we think they don’t pick up on. They know when this is going on. ## Being Hijacked By The Recovery Movement **Dr. Dines:** So as difficult as this is, and I understand, ultimately you have to do what is right for your moral compass. Which is not living with a man who is exploitative. And if you have children, your first and most important commitment is to bring up healthy adults, and you cannot do that in a toxic home. **Anne:** Thank you, I love hearing this from you as a feminist. It feels different and sounds different. It sounds so much more empowering than typical church talks about love, forgiveness and service. **Dr. Dines:** What bothers me is this whole notion of the recovery movement. Some groups have hijacked us. But I’ve been at conferences where I’ve spoken to some of these recovery teams. One of the things I noticed was that I was visiting a conference where they all had their materials out. I was going along speaking to them. Many of them had their arms firmly planted around their wife, like she was a prop here, and they would say, we’re in recovery. And I would say, okay, I’m just a bit confused here, so who was using this stuff? And he would say, I am. So you mean you’re in recovery? And she’s recovering from you using it. Let’s be clear here. Who’s doing what? And it felt disingenuous. It felt their wives were being used as a prop. And the questions they never addressed are that if a man has been using it, the answer is not simply to stop using it, because that’s not enough. ## He Needs A Serious Change Because His Identity Has Been Defined By This Garbage **Dr. Dines:** That’s like beating a dry drum, because he still has all those images in his head. All those notions of what it means to be a man, which is power over women. It is the key message of exploitative media. The hotter it is, the more power you have over her. Or rather the more power you have over. So I don’t believe in that forgiveness. If he is truly sorry and has been through a journey. And understands the pain he’s caused, and also the women in in it. He has to make amends with all those women. He has basically supported an industry that has also destroyed women’s lives. It’s the women in it, not just the women he lives with. But to just jump into this notion of forgiveness is too easy an out. It doesn’t get to the core of what he has learned. in his many years of using it. Which is, believe me, not what you want in your life. What you’re hearing here is a much more feminist analysis coming from a non-faith based position. This is not to criticize the faith-based positions. But to say it’s not enough to say that you believe in God and forgiveness, or whatever. You need a serious change and commitment from your partner to this. Because otherwise, you’re just dealing with somebody whose development has been defined by exploitative media. Even if he’s not looking at it, absolutely. **Anne:** The same abusive thought processes, entitlement, and feelings of superiority will remain. That is dangerous. What we’re seeing right now is so many men claim to be in recovery. Yet they still exhibit these abusive behaviors, lying, manipulation, and anger. ## The Importance Of Joy & Safety **Anne:** I don’t know whether the exploitative media has stopped or not, right? Because the lying continues, but at least we can see that the abusive behaviors are continuing. **Dr. Dines:** And even if they’re not looking at it, they’ve got it in their head. **Anne:** Right, that’s why here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we see it as an abuse issue. As women start to wrap their heads around that, it makes it easier to know what to do. Okay, instead of loving, serving, and forgiveness, I need to protect myself. What do I need to have a safe home and live a safe life? And I’m going to work toward my own personal safety and the safety of my children. **Dr. Dines:** And a joyful life. We want joy in our lives, and connection, intimacy, and love. All those things that make life worth living. Safety is obviously the most important, but we want much, much more than that, and we deserve more than that. **Anne:** Many of my listeners are just trying to get to safety. That is the first base, so to speak, and they’re not there yet. When you’re in that abuse, it’s so overwhelming to even think. All I want is he’s, you know, please just get me to the shore. **Dr. Dines:** I totally understand that, but what I say is, and why I bring joy, is that because your life is often so steeped in misery in this position. It’s hard to ever think that you can ever feel joy again. And it’s important to look to the future, as well as to what you want for yourself. And in that future, it has to be joy, and you deserve a loving connected relationship. ## Important Work To Stop Exploitation **Dr. Dines:** One with absolutely no exploitation in it, because as soon as it gets into your relationship, it becomes toxic. **Anne:** Dr. Dines, thank you so much for spending time with me and coming on today’s episode. **Dr. Dines:** Well, it was a pleasure, and thank you for asking me. It’s wonderful work you’re doing Anne. **Anne:** Thank you. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [How Fundamentalism and Patriarchy Fuel Abuse - Emily's Story](https://www.btr.org/fundamentalism-and-patriarchy-fuel-abuse/) **Published:** December 6, 2022 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** If you grew up in a fundamentalist Christian home, you may be all-too familiar with how fundamentalism and patriarchy fuel abuse. **Content:** If you grew up in a fundamentalist Christian home, you may be all too familiar with how fundamentalism and patriarchy fuel abuse. To know if you’re experiencing this type of abuse in your church or home, take our [free emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ![Why Patriarchy and Fundamentalism Fuel Spiritual Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/patriarchy-and-fundamentalisim-fuel-spiritual-abuse.webp "Patriarchy and Fundamentalism Fuel Spiritual Abuse")Emily is on the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, sharing her experiences with a fundamentalist cult. Recognizing and then escaping the abusiveness of her upbringing has led her to support other victims – including the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community. ## Fundamentalism & Patriarchy Are Intertwined You can’t have fundamentalist teachings without patriarchy lurking ominously. Patriarchy is simply disguised misogyny, and misogyny is at the root of abuse. ## Using Religion To Excuse & Enable Abuse Fundamentalist religious communities use patriarchal (misogynistic) doctrines to excuse and enable abuse: Whether you’ve recently wondered if there are abusive patterns in your faith community, or you’ve been nuanced for some time. [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/) are a safe place for you to process your trauma and find a community of women who will never judge you on your journey. We love you, we believe you. ![How Patriarchy and Fundamentalism Harm Women](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-Patriarchy-and-Fundamentalisim-Harms-Women.webp "How Patriarchy and Fundamentalism Harms Women")## Transcript: How Fundamentalism And Patriarchy Fuel Abuse **Anne:** I am so honored to have Emily on today’s episode. She’s a trauma recovery advocate for people who’ve experienced abuse within a Christian environment. She grew up in a fundamentalist cult for 23 years and experienced childhood domestic violence. We will talk about how fundamentalism and patriarchy fuel abuse. Emily began her journey to recovery and eventually found Jesus her ultimate healer. Welcome, Emily. **Emily:** Oh, thank you, Anne, so much for having me on today. I’m so excited about this. I’ve been looking forward to this for quite a while. **Anne:** So let’s start with your own personal story. Can you talk to us about your personal experiences in fundamentalism and patriarchy? And as you’re explaining that, would you also mind sharing your definition of fundamentalism? **Emily:** Absolutely, so my parents raised me in a Baptist Christian home. My parents were both school teachers at what I consider a fundamentalist patriarchal Christian school. So there are so many definitions of fundamentalism. There’s the definition where Christians just take the Word of God as inerrant, and they take it literally. And I would say I am still a Christian, and I would say I still believe in the inerrancy of God’s Word. I still take it pretty literally, other than the obvious poetic passages, you know. ![How Fundamentalism Fuels Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/fundamentalisim-fuels-abuse.webp "Fundamentalism Fuels Abuse")But, my experience with fundamentalism was actually an almost prosperity gospel type experience. They taught me Christians have a very black and white world. Everything is either good or evil. I grew up listening to teachers and instructors ideas. Their ideas of what they considered right and what they considered wrong. And we’re talking about things that are not actually laid out clearly in scripture. ## Women Considered Beneath Men **Emily:** Things like what kind of music you can listen to or how you dress. Those kinds of things. So actually just a lot of the extra stuff that Christians can disagree about. People’s different opinions on what is considered Christlike behavior. Opinions in the fundamentalist world are pared down to everything. Everything’s black and white. There is no gray area whatsoever. And so if you follow all the rules, your life will be amazing, and God will bless you. If you are experiencing any kind of hardship in your life, it’s because you’re obviously not following all the rules. This is one of the ways fundamentalism and patriarchy fuel abuse. And if you think you are, you probably have some secrets hidden in your heart. **Anne:** So would you say, with your definition of fundamentalism, that there are men who define these things? So for example, they define what you should wear. Or what you should read or watch. Or the way you should spend your time, and there’s very little autonomy for women. ![How Patriarchy and Fundamentalism Fuel Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/patriarchy-and-fundamentalisim-fuel-abuse.webp "Patriarchy and Fundamentalism Fuel Abuse")**Emily:** Yes, for sure. Every fundamentalist teaching I’ve ever encountered also goes hand in hand with patriarchy. And that’s going to be the primary topic of what we’re discussing today and what patriarchy looks like. But for the most part, it looks like men doing the teaching and interpreting of scripture. Leadership repeatedly tells women that it’s easy to deceive them, like Eve. So you have to have male authority over you for your protection, safety, provision and interpretation of scripture. They consider women beneath men, they are the property of men. They must have some kind of male headship and authority, rather than God being their direct authority. ## Early Education & Gothard Homeschool **Anne:** These are some of the [effects of spiritual abuse. ](https://www.btr.org/effects-of-spiritual-abuse/ "effects of spiritual abuse. ")Back in the day, women were property. And then around the 1800s, that didn’t fly anymore. Christians picked up the reason they’re less than because God ordained it so. The patriarchy has sort of evolved the reasons why women are less than, and none of them hold water. But they have to have some reason, and unfortunately in the Christian world women have bought into this, and fundamentalism and patriarchy has really harmed us. Fundamentalism and patriarchy fuel abuse. This also plays into things like [ritual abuse](https://www.btr.org/ritual-abuse/). **Emily:** I think patriarchy is a nice package for abuse, power and control. And so many abusers like to use it and claim it is of God. It is not. They feed women that this is what God wants. I saw patriarchy used to excuse abusive behavior. So as I said, my parents raised me first in a Baptist home, and we went to a pretty fundamentalist patriarchal church that was also a school. My parents were teachers at that school. ![Why Patriarchy Fuels Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/patriarch-fuels-abuse.webp "Patriarchy Fuels Abuse")My parents raised me in that school system from first through fourth grade. But in fifth grade, my parents left that church and moved on to a different church. At the same time, my mother decided to homeschool me. And at that point we joined The Advanced Training Institute, a homeschool cult run by a man named Bill Gothard. Gothard initially founded his ministry, the Institute in Basic Youth Conflicts, in the 1960s, and eventually evolved to the Institute in Basic Life Principles, and that was the parent organization. ATI, the Advanced Training Institute, started in the 80s when the homeschooling movement started to pick up. ## Fundamentalism And Patriarchy Fuel Abuse: The Wisdom Booklets & ATI Conferences **Emily:** And we had homeschooling material that we would work through every day. So every family did things differently. Some families exclusively used the ATI materials for their homeschool education. It was different, not a comprehensive education by any stretch of the imagination. But other families like mine chose to use the ATI materials just for Bible study time. And then we did thorough education on top of that. In addition to using the ATI materials. The 52 Wisdom Booklets were the primary materials. And you did one booklet per month. And then when you got to the end, you would just start back over with number one again. Children of all ages used these Wisdom Booklets simultaneously. ![Spiritual Abusers Want You To Think You're Rebellious](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/GcKBBYifx2I/maxresdefault.jpg) So families would gather together, and you would have from toddlers, all the way up to high school students, reading these wisdom booklets together and having family discussions based on them. So with my family, my mother and I just read through the wisdom booklets first thing in the morning, and then we did other schoolwork later in the day. Families attended homeschool conferences each year. You would attend one conference per year, but they would have a few select locations. You picked whichever one was closest to you in the United States. I loved the ATI conferences because in a cult, you live in your own unique culture. They raise you in this little bubble. You’re told that anyone who doesn’t believe exactly the way you do is potentially dangerous. Or not a Christian, or will be a bad influence at least. ## Realizing The Cult Environment **Emily:** So, you fellowship with those who believe. You associate only with like-minded believers who believe similar things. The conferences were my safe place every year. Because families surrounded me that looked exactly like I looked. We all dressed the same, talked the same, consumed the same media and had the same belief systems. So it felt like a very, very safe place. I didn’t come to the understanding until many years later that this was actually a cult. And this is one of the classic cult environments that you experience. Bill Gothard groomed me starting at 13 when he was in his 70s. **Anne:** And he is the leader of this cult. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) **Emily:** He is the leader, yes. He groomed me from 13 until I was 18 years old. That looked like Bill approaching me at every conference and trying to convince me to leave home and permanently move up to the organization’s headquarters, which was in Chicago. And he did this frequently. He would consistently have teenagers leave their homes for extended periods. Whether that is months or upwards to years, and they would move to headquarters. They would work at headquarters, whether in the shipping department, answering phone calls, or working in the kitchens. Many teenage girls personally worked with Bill and did more secretarial work for him. So he groomed me for six years, asking me to eventually come up there. I did have a short time when I was 18 years old. I was only up there for about 10 days, thank God. ## Joining The Lawsuit Against Gothard **Emily:** My mother was alongside me, and that 10 day interaction with Bill was negative. His behavior toward me became increasingly abusive and inappropriate. It basically became a war between us where he wanted me to stay. My mother and I did not feel comfortable with that. So eventually we chose to go back home. And about a year later, I came across a website created by survivors of ATI. They were raised in the system. They are now adults who came out of it, and understood the toxicity of the belief system. And they started to write articles online about what is toxic about the teachings, and how this was actually a cult and not biblical. So I came across this website and started reading stories from other young women targeted by Bill. Or at least they had allegations of such behavior. I read those articles, and realized that I experienced what they called grandfatherly affection. It actually crossed the line into harassment. And later, after a few more years, I joined a lawsuit with 19 other victims with various allegations. We fought in that lawsuit for five years until 2020. And the lawsuit did not conclude the way we had hoped, we had to withdraw it before we went to trial. I can’t go into all the reasons why we did, but there were various legal reasons why we chose to withdraw. We have not taken back any of our allegations or our stance on what we believe happened there. Today, I choose to use my voice for good, and I try to warn people of the abuse common in patriarchal organizations. ## Fundamentalism And Patriarchy Fuel Abuse By The Lack Of Education **Emily:** Hopefully, to give insight to victims and share that this is not a biblical system at all. **Anne:** Thank you so much for sharing. That sounds really difficult. People don’t realize that all of this emotional and psychological [grooming from thier husband](https://www.btr.org/is-my-husband-grooming-me/ "grooming from thier husband") or someone in a position of power even if it does not result in some type of physical assault, is still very damaging to victims. **Emily:** Yes, absolutely, that was a turning point in my deconstruction process. I actually began professional therapy just a month after joining the lawsuit, and I now call that day my freedom day. So tomorrow is my freedom day, and I’m celebrating six years out of the cult. But part of my initial therapy was to help me understand what actually constitutes abuse, and what abuse looks like. Often in fundamentalist circles, I see a lack of education, because usually these groups focus on the purity movement, the courtship movement. That has all its own problems. No one tells students what sexual abuse looks like. And so, not only did I experience this harassment from Bill. Also, throughout my teenage years, my father abused me. My father molested me at one point. So I didn’t believe it was abuse. I thought that to call it abuse, it had to involve some kind of penetration. The emotional ramifications and trauma that ensue, and the PTSD, can be severe. Even when you are dealing with just harassment or abuse. **Anne:** “just,” **Emily:** Yes, exactly, milder instances. You could say. **Anne:** I don’t know if I’d even call it milder. It’s all awful. ## The Impact Of Emotional & Psychological Abuse **Anne:** All of it is awful, perhaps in some women’s minds, depending on their understanding of abuse, like if someone hits you in the face, it’s awful, but you know, they hit you in the face. Whereas the psychological and emotional stuff is so damaging, partly because it’s so confusing, and so that is so damaging. I never want to use the word just because it’s very, very damaging. And I would say most women who have been physically assaulted. There is no physical assault without emotional and psychological assault. Most say that psychological and emotional abuse was the hardest part they had to heal from. Wrapping your head around it, trying to figure out what happened, questioning yourself. All that stuff made it so difficult to figure out what was going on. **Emily:** Yes, I believe emotional abuse is a form of physical abuse. Another part of my story is because of the abuse I experienced, both through Gothard and my father. I developed an autoimmune disease at 11 years old, which is young. I was officially diagnosed when I was 13 with Crohn’s disease. You can look in the photo albums and see when my symptoms first began. It correlates exactly when the abuse from my father began. I have talked to a lot of survivors, and many women are confused. They say, well, he’s not physically abusive. He doesn’t hit me. You know, he’s never been physically violent toward me or anything like that. But then they explain severe and in-depth emotional, psychological, intellectual and financial abuse. There are so many layers of abuse. All those layers of emotional abuse can cause a stress reaction in the body. ## The Need For Emotional & Psychological Safety **Emily:** Which begins to tear down your body systems and whacks out your hormones, causing systemic inflammation and infections. So one of the common repercussions of emotional abuse is actually physical illness. So really, it’s not any less abuse because he didn’t hit you. **Anne:** Yeah, I want that to hit home with victims who are listening. Who think they don’t have enough to warrant them making their way to safety. You know, like it’s not so bad yet that I have to do something about it. Like it is already to the point where you need to seek safety, emotional,and psychological safety. All those things are so important. I’m so sorry to hear about your disorder. That is so hard. **Emily:** Well, thank you. I still deal with the physical symptoms daily, and I’m having to realize that if my body endured two decades of abuse. It will take a while to be out of that abusive situation, especially when fundamentalism and patriarchy are involved. So my body can slowly heal. Honestly, I’ll probably always deal with some kind of physical repercussion. **Anne:** That’s another reason why it’s so concerning to me that people say things like, oh, just forgive or move on. And I think it’s because people don’t realize that there are real, tangible consequences that we live with as abuse victims daily. That it isn’t just a matter of moving forward with our lives. We move forward with our lives the best way possible, and continue to deal with the consequences of our actions, being victimized. And that is hard for each of us in our own way with all the consequences that we face. ## Fundamentalism And Patriarchy Fuel Abuse: Understanding Cults **Anne:** And it’s unfortunate that the society at large, number one, doesn’t understand abuse. But number two, doesn’t understand what true change looks like in an abuser. If an abuser genuinely understood what they had done, they would be making restitution to their victims for the rest of their lives. **Emily:** Yes, and the consequences of abuse and sin can continue to last to some degree. **Anne:** Exactly, you used the word cult, and said you weren’t aware that you were in a cult at the time. When you say the word cult, what identifies to you that it’s a cult now? **Emily:** Well, I think there are several indicators of what a cult may look like. Usually there is one primary person in authority receiving revelations from God, if this is supposedly a Christian organization. We saw that with Gothard, he wrote quite a few books and came up with some interesting interpretations of scripture that are not found anywhere else. He loved to write a certain idea of his, and then cherry pick a verse to try to support it. In fundamentalism and patriarchy women are discouraged from interpreting scripture for themselves. So if you actually look up the verses supposed to support his statement. You realize that that verse is completely taken out of context, and it has nothing to do with it, with what he’s talking about most of the time in ATI. You had to pay. So there’s usually some kind of financial investment in a cult. We had to pay a yearly membership to be part of it. Speaking of memberships, there was a rigorous approval application. So cults usually require their members to hold certain very, very strict standards. ## Isolation & Excommunication In Cults **Emily:** If you don’t hold to those standards, you aren’t allowed to be part of the organization anymore. We experienced that for sure. You’ve got a fundamentalist patriarchal leader who usually abuses their power. Many times, families become isolated. As I said earlier, they become leery of others who do not believe exactly how they believe. There’s a lot of isolation that happens. You’re living in a bubble. And if a child grows up, becomes an adult, and decides not to follow the cult standards anymore. Oftentimes excommunication is a result of that, and family relationships are broken off because you can’t fellowship with somebody who is not following the cult lifestyle anymore. **Anne:** Okay, so some pretty severe consequences for people who disagree. **Emily:** Yes **Anne:** Okay, that’s really hard. Thank you for sharing that with us. When we’re talking about the patriarchal mindset common in so many patriarchal organizations, what theological ideations, if any, contribute to that mindset? **Emily:** I think patriarchalists often like to start with the first book of the Bible. They love to say Eve was deceived in the garden, and that if Adam had been there, perhaps she wouldn’t have been deceived. This is funny, because if you read scripture, it says after she took of the fruit and ate, she gave it to Adam who was with her. So that seems clear in scripture that he was actually with her, but they love to say that because Eve was deceived, women are more naturally deceived. And just in the last week, I have listened to two different teachers using the exact phrase that men are rescuers of women. And that is actually a God-ordained position that men are supposed to rescue women from deception. ## Men As Protectors & Providers **Emily:** Men should protect them from any kind of harm that could come to them in the world. Men are supposed to be protectors, providers, and spiritually lead their family. So often that means the husband or the man should read the scripture to the family. And interpreting the scripture to the family, because women are deceived. And easily confused by scripture, and can’t properly interpret it, they have to have a man interpret it for them. So many times, there’s a big focus on Genesis, as the reason why patriarchy is God ordained. Also, Ephesians 5:21, the verse on submission is frequently brought up. Often [biblical submission becomes abuse.](https://www.btr.org/when-biblical-submission-becomes-abuse/ "biblical submission becomes abuse.") But the verse actually says submit to one another out of reverence to Christ. So even in Ephesians, we see it clearly stating that a husband and wife must be on mutual ground. They’re supposed to submit to one another. And I think in this instance, submit would be well translated to serve one another or to prioritize each other’s preferences. So it’s talking about kindness and Christlike behavior toward one another. I do not see that as a command to authority whatsoever. **Anne:** From what you just said, the main thing that is deceiving women, is men. **Emily:** True. **Anne:** Right, so if you are concerned that women are being deceived. Then who is deceiving them? And it’s not their fault they’re being deceived. It’s the abusers who lie and manipulate them. **Emily:** Right. **Anne:** What deceives women? Wicked men, that’s who they’re deceived by. And it’s not their fault, that’s funny. I’m like, maybe you should be trustworthy, and then you wouldn’t have to worry about it. ## Fundamentalists Patriarchal Authority use Marriage Ceremonies To Opress **Anne:** What does life look like for a woman in the most severe patriarchal Christian organizations? **Emily:** I have seen it start with daughters at home, where they are told they must have an authority figure over them. And their God given authority is their father. That authority remains until they’re married. So, in these patriarchal organizations, I’ve been to many weddings. There’s almost always a transfer of authority section in the marriage ceremony. So, the father walks the girl down the aisle, and he’s holding her hand. Then he gives this blessing over her. Then a speech about how he’s been entrusted with her and he’s been her authority all these years. I’ve seen this with 41 year old women. This is not just young girls, but even 41 year old women who have continued to stay at home to be under their father’s authority. Then he moves her hand into her groom’s hand, and does this like I’m transferring the authority over to the groom. Anyway, so I’ve seen that a lot. **Anne:** That makes sense with how women were just property before. So essentially they’re saying, she was my property, but now she’s going to be your property. Except that was not the right thing to say anymore after the late 1800s. And so then they were like, Oh, what are we going to say now? Oh, I know we’ll say our God given authority over them as being transferred. **Emily:** Yes, so women raised in patriarchal organizations are often discouraged from working outside the home or for making any kind of income. Because that would be the man’s responsibility. They’re usually stay at home moms, sometimes homeschooling their children. ## Consulting Husbands On Decisions **Emily:** There’s nothing wrong with stay at home moms by any means, nothing wrong with homeschooling. It’s the idea that it’s more biblical. Than a woman choosing to be a provider for her family, a financial provider. That bothers me. Every family, I think, decides the dynamics, who has which responsibilities, and how those responsibilities are divided. It’s not more biblical for a woman to be a stay at home mom and the husband to be the breadwinner. Women, because they’re told they’re so easily deceived, are encouraged to consult their husbands on all decisions. No matter how small, any kind of financial decision or decision for the family, or even buying kids clothes. I mean little stuff like that. I’ve seen women have to get their husband’s permission before they do anything. I have seen women not allowed to take communion unless it’s given to them by their husband. In some churches, if a single woman comes in, or heaven forbid, she’s divorced with children. They don’t allow her to receive communion on her own. An elder has to bring it. They encourage women not to leave abusive relationships. They don’t tell women what abuse looks like. But if they go to their pastor and explain an abusive situation. They tell women frequently, you just need to submit more. You need to pray quietly, have a meek, quiet, submissive spirit. Pray for your husband, God will get hold of him. Just lavish him, lavish him with love, affection, and that will make him adore you. It will encourage him to treat you in a Christlike manner. I’ve heard that more times than I can count. ## Parent-Child Dynamics In Marriage **Emily:** They don’t allow women to confront their husband. They don’t allow women to have an adult to adult relationship, but there’s this parent-child one. Since the husband has this authority position over his wife, he has power and control over her. And so, they don’t have this equal, let’s talk as adults. I can call you out. You can call me out. You don’t see that in these patriarchal worlds. **Anne:** That’s fertile ground for abuse in those cases. Because women think they’re following God by submitting to many times just flat out wickedness, which is why fundamentalism and patriarchy fuel abuse. And that is really hard, especially in situations where a man uses pornography, and maybe she’s not aware of it. Or he’s soliciting prostitutes, or he has some wicked behavior that she’s not aware of, and she’s submitting to his desires or other things. She might not even know she’s submitting to wickedness. Women should know they’re not required to submit to wickedness. In fact, God wants you to turn away from that. For women who find themselves in this fog of abuse, and they’re not quite able to see what’s going on. **Emily:** I’ve seen a few dynamics at play. First, I call fundamentalism the gumball gospel. So you put a quarter in and you get a gumball out. And so it’s very predictable, and there is a false sense of security in that promised predictability. ## Fundamentalism And Patriarchy Fuel Abuse: Promises Of Happiness & Security **Emily:** They tell you that if you follow all the rules, this will happen. If you follow all the courtship and purity rules, you will have a fantastic marriage that doesn’t have any conflict. And you’ll have an amazing life. Your husband will never cheat on you. They tell you that if you follow all these rules, you’ll receive financial blessings. Your children will grow up as devout followers of Christ. And they will not fall away, as some would say. There are a lot of promises of happiness, and everything turning out right. You know, happy, fulfilling marriages and not having any struggles. And that goes completely against scripture, in which Jesus was clear. We live in a broken world. We will experience, you’re going to experience pain, hardship, and brokenness is all around you. We’re supposed to keep our eyes focused on Him, and realize this world is our temporary home. We’re supposed to keep our eyes on our future home, and realize that is where we’re going to experience the perfection of God. It’s not going to be here. And just because you’re experiencing pain here on this earth, it does not mean you’re not following God. Or you made God upset with you. It’s a toxic lie that I’ve seen told again and again. **Anne:** And I think when it doesn’t work out like that, women feel betrayed by religion, right? They feel betrayed because they’re like, I did everything I should do. And in fact, I married a “godly man.” He checked all the boxes. And you told me if I did that, that I would have a peaceful, happy marriage. Instead, I’m abused. So explain to me how this works. ## Betrayal By Religion **Anne:** Wouldn’t it have been more useful for you to educate me about abuse? But since they don’t understand abuse, they can’t educate people about it. **Emily:** It’s very, very sad. Abusers love it because it is a golden ticket for them to abuse all they want. And have power, authority and control over their victims all they want, and do it in the name of God. This is what I think blasphemy looks like, not just, you know, saying God’s name when you stub your toe. Anyway, side note. I’ve seen women confess they consider it a lack of responsibility. So I’ve heard women say, I love it, because if something goes wrong in the family, it’s not my fault. It’s my husband’s fault. He’s the leader. And he messed up. **Anne:** Hmm. **Emily:** Yeah. **Anne:** That’s interesting. I’ve never been that type of person. It might feel like safety to them. I think many women just feel like they can’t get what they want. And instead of them maybe going to law school, they’re like, Oh, I will marry an attorney. And I want to tell women the life you want, you can build for yourself. You can do what you want. You don’t need to find someone else to do it for you. And it’s a long process, and it’s a lot of hard work, but you are worth it. The cool thing is, you’re the one that you can rely on, right? You can depend on yourself and show up for yourself, which is important. I think that’s what God wants for his daughters. ## Deconstructing Fundamentalism **Anne:** What do you think God has to say about fundamentalism and patriarchy? **Emily:** As I began my, what I call deconstruction process. I didn’t deconstruct from Christianity, but deconstructed from fundamentalism. Realizing what Jesus looked like, what his character looked like. Not depending on what I have been taught all these years about what the Bible says about X, Y and Z. When I study the scriptures, I read them through the lens of the heart of Jesus. When I started [counseling for cheating](/counseling-for-cheating/), I joined a Bible study, and we were in the book of John. It was the best book I could have read. I started with it, because I think John gets to the heart and character of Jesus better than others. And you see his tender care toward women. And how he broke these social norms again and again, whether it was his conversation with the Samaritan woman and his graciousness and kindness toward her, he did not shame her. He saw her as a victim, and he had such a love for her. And he empowered her as the first evangelist. He told her first that he was the Messiah. Then he told her to go and tell the town. He didn’t shame her for the circumstances she was living in, but he actually gave her respect and honor by speaking to her. And we see this with the women who accompanied him in his ministry on earth. We see his respect again and again. And so I encourage women to keep that in mind when you read scriptures. And realize that nowhere do we see Jesus encouraging one human to have power and control over another. That’s what fundamentalism teaches. ## Fundamentalism And Patriarchy Fuel Abuse Not Love **Emily:** We don’t see it in Genesis either. When God created Adam and Eve, he gave them dominion over the earth together. We don’t see that he gave any kind of authority one human over another. So I don’t believe that was ever part of his plan. So whether it’s in Genesis or seeing God’s provision for women through the Old Testament. Society downcast, shunned and abused them. We see his provision for them in the Old Testament. Then we see his actual personal interaction with women in the New Testament. And then we see the beginnings of the early church, and we see how women had positions in the early church of ministry. It’s like again and again, I look through these verses that fundamentalists want to pick out, that seem to support patriarchy. And I say, let’s look at that through the whole picture. Let’s look at that through the whole lens and really see does God really encourage patriarchy over women? And I, I just don’t see it happening. **Anne:** God loves us, loves us, and wants us to have peace. The point of righteousness, the point of being healthy for my listening friends who perhaps aren’t religious. So let’s just maybe call it the point of being healthy. Emotionally healthy is to have peace to bring happiness and joy into our lives. That’s the whole point. But when someone abuses you, you can’t feel that. No matter how healthy you are, because you’re constantly experiencing someone else’s bad choices. And we all know that’s miserable. God wants us to be able to benefit from our own healthy and righteous choices. ## Realizing The Suffering From Spiritual Abuse **Emily:** Yes, and though he said we would endure pain, I believe he has so many good gifts for us here to enjoy. And I believe he cares about his daughters and the safety of his daughters. And he would never want his daughters to be submitting to abuse in the name of God. **Anne:** Yeah, I think when women do that, they also feel perhaps control, right? Maybe if I do submit, my life will be good and things will turn out okay. Not knowing there’s no end to abuse. So as you submit to abuse, the abuser just gets what they want, and they continue to say, oh, this worked, so I can continue doing this. So submitting doesn’t solve the problem of abuse, right? For women who are beginning to deconstruct their personal experiences and realize that they also suffered from spiritual abuse. That part of the reason why they were in so much fog is because it wasn’t just their husband. It was also the system of misogyny. One of the things that abusive men have stolen from women is their faith. So many women have experienced all this abuse. And so, just even talking about scripture or even attending a service or something is so traumatic. So, for women who listen, who become traumatized by even the thought of reading scripture. Our hearts go out to you. And I want to leave a space for you if you’ve chosen to step away from your faith because of your trauma. We honor that here, knowing that’s a difficult situation. So for women in that situation, do you have comfort for them that perhaps where they are is fine, and God loves them anyway? ## Finding A Safe Community **Anne:** Or some, some type of comfort that you might offer women who have lost their faith due to abuse? **Emily:** Yes, I agree. It’s okay to take a step back, whether that’s taking a step back from church. Because you’ve been in abusive churches your whole life, and instead you choose to find safe community elsewhere. I’ve stepped away from church for a few years, deconstruction, and eventually found a place that I have found safe so far. And resisted because fundamentalism and patriarchy fuel abuse. That can be pretty uncommon. And so if you need to take a step back, there is safe community elsewhere. You can find healing in safe relationships outside the church. I dig into scripture because I had scripture used as a weapon against me. And I wanted to know what it really said. But there are books of the Bible that I have not opened in the past six years. Through my deconstruction process, from experiencing fundamentalism and patriarchy because they’re just too triggering. And certain passages of scripture that I can’t do. I think God understands that, and I think he speaks to me in other ways. So whether you’re taking a step back only on certain things or just entirely, I think there’s so much healing in safe relationships. If you want to continue to pray, I think you can do that anywhere, and God sees your pain. He sees the abuse you’ve been through, he’s weeping for you because of all the abuse you’ve been through. And I think he wants to heal that, but I think he also understands that space is sometimes needed. You need to step away from organized religion for a while to heal sometimes to find the heart of God. ## Women Recovering From Fundamentalist and Spiritual Abuse Are Welcome At BTR.ORG **Anne:** Yeah, and I’m so grateful for Betrayal Trauma Recovery. We’re interfaith. I am an active, devout member of my faith, attend church, read scriptures and stuff like that. But I respect all women for where they are. I want them to know that they’re welcome here. I’m so grateful for those of you who maybe aren’t of any faith or maybe there are atheists listening. And I just want to thank you for giving us a space to share our experience in our way and define what that is. It is meant for us. Everyone is welcome here. I’m so grateful that BTR.ORG is such a robust community of women who all agree about abuse and need to support each other. It’s a strong community in that way. And so thank you so much for coming on today’s episode. **Emily:** Thank you. It’s been amazing. It’s been wonderful to meet you. Thank you for the opportunity. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [This is NOT One of The Types of Physical Intimacy - Isabelle's Story](https://www.btr.org/types-of-physical-intimacy/) **Published:** November 29, 2022 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** If you're experiencing this, you have a crucial need to get the right type of support. **Content:** Healthy physical intimacy implies just that – intimacy. However this is NOT one of the types of physical intimacy. In fact, even thought it’s common in marriage, it’s classified as domestic abuse. To know if you’re experiencing any one of the 19 types of emotional abuse that are connected with intimacy, take our [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). And if you relate to any of this episode, check out our [Betrayal Trauma Support Group Session ](https://www.btr.org/group/ "Group Session Schedule")Schedule. We’d love to see you in a session today. ![Intimacy Different Types](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Intimacy-Different-Types.webp "Intimacy Different Types")## Transcript: **This is NOT One of The Types of Physical Intimacy** **Anne:** I have a woman named Isabelle on today’s podcast. She has been walking the path of healing from narcissistic abuse – which is an extreme lack of intimacy. She’s also suffered betrayal trauma for years. In February of 2019, just months after her three year divorce, she experienced a miraculous healing of chronic pelvic floor dysfunction. She has experienced firsthand the healing power of creativity, and now works as an expressive arts facilitator. She feels called to share her creative talents and the wisdom she has gained from her journey, so that other women can experience hope and healing. Welcome Isabelle. **Isabelle:** Thank you, Anne. It’s good to be here. **Anne:** So let’s start with your story, Isabelle. ![This is Not One of the Types of Intimacy](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/This-Is-Not-One-of-The-Types-of-Intimacy.webp "This is Not One of the Types of Intimacy")## **Early Childhood Trauma** **Isabelle:** The part of my story that led me to where I am today and being on this podcast is when I was six years old. My uncle abused me Christmas Eve at my grandparents’ home. And I’ve been walking through the healing from that, as well as the trauma from marital abuse and my adult life. I have realized that it was that event, that moment in time, that disrupted the healthy development of my mind, body, and spirit. Also, I realized that I heard the lie in words and actions. That love is pain. That love and pain are synonymous, they go together. And I can see now how believing that set me up for not recognizing abuse in the future. **Anne:** I’m so sorry about your experience. **Anne:** When you get in a relationship with your husband, did you recognize his behaviors as abusive at first? Or were you still in that mindset that love hurts? **Isabelle:** I think that was my, you know, core belief. It was just in there. I didn’t have to think about it. If that makes sense. I didn’t consciously think about it. That was part of it. ![Different Types of Intimacy](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/4-Different-Types-Of-Intimacy.webp "Different Types of Intimacy")## Marital Rape Is Difficult To Understand and Identify **Isabelle:** My now former husband is a narcissist, so I did not recognize what he was doing as abuse. Because it seemed to me that he was my knight in shining armor. All his promises were to take care of me, that he adored and loved me. He was four years older than me. He would tell me that my innocence and my naivety were so attractive to him, and that he loved that about me. Additionally, he would teach me everything I needed to know. I bought into all that, didn’t know about love bombing and gaslighting and all those things. I am only 18 and never seriously dated anyone, as a freshman in college. **Anne:** When did you recognize his behaviors, perhaps not abusive at first? Or that you had [divorced a narcissist.](https://www.btr.org/divorcing-a-narcissist/ "divorce a narcissist.") https://www.btr.org/divorcing-a-narcissist/ My guess is when things start happening that are harmful. You’re not thinking immediately this is an abuser. First, every woman goes through this. Maybe he’s stressed when you know that something is wrong. You don’t know what it is and you may have been blaming yourself. What types of things did you do during that time? I’ll call it not comprehending that you’re in an abusive relationship, to try and establish safety and peace in your home. ![Types of Intimacy](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Types-Of-Intimacy.webp "Types of Intimacy")## **Struggles With Birth Control** **Isabelle:** I am Catholic, and in our marriage birth control was an issue. I learned natural family planning. I learned to know my body to chart my cycles. He said that was the right thing for us to do. But he did not take any responsibility for it that a husband should. It was really on me. So we had four babies in a little over five years. I was homeschooling the oldest, who would have been in kindergarten at that point. I can actually picture it right now, sitting here. The moment when I knew deep inside of me that something was wrong. It would have been after the fourth baby, I told him, I need a little break before we have another baby. I didn’t say I won’t have another baby. I just said, not right now. I’m tired and my body is exhausted. I question now how manipulative and coercive. But those words weren’t what I would have used at the time. I probably would have said, wow, he’s persistent. He gets really angry and mean. If I would try to say no this particular night that I remember. He actually, after being persistent, was kind and said no. No, it’s okay. I understand. Sorry. We’ll just go to sleep. We’ll wait until you’re not fertile. ![This is Not a Type of Intimacy](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/This-Is-Not-A-Type-of-Intimacy.webp "This is Not a Type of Intimacy")## The First **Injury** **Isabelle:** I remember going to sleep thinking wow, he gets it now, this is good and I’m feeling safe. Then I woke in the middle of the night to him forcing himself on me. I begged him to stop. Even when I told him he was hurting me, and that he had promised he wouldn’t, he just became more and more violent. And I knew, because I knew my cycles, and I knew I was going to end up pregnant. I was. I told him I was pregnant, his response was, how could you let that happen? **Anne:** I’m so sorry. Did events like this continue after this event? Then you have five kids after this. Did you try some common marriage advice that we get as Christians, but also just as society in terms of loving or serving or forgiving or any of those things? Talk about your experience with that, how that played out. **Isabelle:** For years, I began to see then there was a very unsettling lack of compassion and disregard for me. Then I began to notice that for our children. ![Abuse Isn't Love](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/o38SMFvqW1E/maxresdefault.jpg) ## This Type of Abuse Is Confusing Sometimes **Anne:** As this continued, did you know at the time what it was? Would you have defined it that way? **Isabelle:** No, for a long time it was confusing. Because even when I would try to talk to him about it like, that really hurt me or why are you doing this? Now I know I would call that gaslighting and projection all those narcissistic manipulation tactics. But at the time he would tell me I dreamt it. No, that didn’t happen. I would ask him. Why did you do that again? And he would get angry and tell me, you know, what a horrible wife I was to make up such lies. I must hate him to even think such a thing. I’d lay there thinking, but I know I didn’t dream it. **Isabelle:** The other thing that I think is important to know is, because this went on for so long, I ended up after the eighth baby was born with postpartum depression. My OB kept saying, no, you were depressed while you were pregnant. Then it became treatment resistant depression, and then bipolar disorder. I was in and out of the hospital for depression and suicidal ideation. **Anne:** Nobody throughout this time, including you, recognized you were an abuse victim? [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## This Lack of Intimacy Is Domestic Abuse **Isabelle:** Eventually, they began to ask me if he was abusing me. Then after a few years in and out of the hospital, the doctors at the hospital started saying, “We know he’s abusing you.” We don’t know exactly how or what, you won’t tell us, but we know he’s abusing you and you do not have to go back home. I had eight small children and married before I graduated from college. I’d never worked a day in my life. Where are we going to go? By this point, I took medications, I had hospital records, and he just kept telling me, “You won’t tell anyone, no one will believe you”. They know you’re the crazy one. And making threats like, if you tell anyone, I will take the money and find a woman and children who make me happy. When I see articles now and listen to things about domestic violence, I believe it is true. In an abusive relationship, marital therapy can just further the trauma. Even if I would get up the courage in a session to try to say something that was happening, we would get in the car to leave, and he wouldn’t take me home for hours. The kids would be calling, where are you? Where are you? And he wouldn’t let me answer. He would just rage at me. One of my psychiatrists used to call me the walking dead and say that I would never ever be better. Because I was catatonic and sick, no one thought I could get free of him. That I’d be able to keep my children, that my children wouldn’t be further harmed. It was very scary. ## Narcissistic Abuse, Mental & Physical Pain **Isabelle:** I can remember one night telling him, “What you’re doing to me has a name.” For anyone who knows a narcissist, you can imagine that narcissistic stare and smirk, you know, that glare. And he just sat there with his arms folded, glared at me and said, Yeah, what are you going to do about it? And I thought, nothing. He knows. In that moment, I realized for all his telling me. He wasn’t doing the things I knew he was doing, and he didn’t mean it. Alternatively, I thought, no, he knows. He knows what he’s doing, and he knows I’m powerless to do anything about it. I’m going to die in this marriage. **Anne:** Did that moment flip a switch for you? **Isabelle:** It flipped a switch. It was at that point that I began insisting on things like separate beds. Part of my story is also that with the depression and what they called bipolar disorder, I had chronic physical pain. ## **Medication & Abuse** **Isabelle:** I was on medication after medication after, I mean just handfuls of medication three, four times a day, which did not help the walking dead effect. There would be nights when I would be really unconscious from the medications. In the morning, I woke up and knew he caused the pain raping me during the night. At that point, I began telling him if he would stop that repeatedly. And then at one point I did tell him that if he had it with me again while I’m unconscious from my meds, I will have to go see an attorney. He didn’t speak to me for several days. And then other abuses became worse. It did not get better. What ended up happening, I think then, is the more I began challenging him by speaking up, then he became more abusive, even in front of the kids. Then it began to affect my younger children. ## Spiritual Abuse **Isabelle:** So at this point, we had nine children. After the eighth baby and a few years of in and out of the hospital, I was in the hospital for a full month. They basically said, “We don’t know what else to do, and we know you can’t go home”. And they insisted I live with a relative for a while. They told us that if I were to get pregnant again, the baby would not survive because of all the medications I was on, and probably die. A few weeks after I was out of the hospital, he visited me at a relative’s. He violated me me again and got me pregnant again. Telling me that he had heard God tell him that another baby would heal me. **Anne:** Spiritual abuse. **Isabelle:** Oh, there was lots. Yeah. **Anne:** Was he a respected man in your church? **Isabelle:** Yes. **Anne:** Had you told clergy about this at all? What was their response? You may have been experiencing the [effects of spiritual abuse](https://www.btr.org/effects-of-spiritual-abuse/ "effects of spiritual abuse"). **Isabelle:** I did. He insisted that we get marital [counseling for cheating](/counseling-for-cheating/). Of course, for a while, he would only go to the priest. He was so good. I wasn’t raised Catholic. He was. So he said, well, I taught you faith. I’m the one who knows God. You don’t, you only know God because I told you about him. You can’t tell me that you know what God wants. ## Marital Violation & Faith Communities **Anne:** Did you convert to Catholicism? Was he part of that conversion process? **Isabelle:** I was baptized Catholic and had the sacraments. But my family just went to church on Easter and Christmas, if that. I didn’t go and my parents divorced. He grew up in a home where they daily prayers, the rosary, and mass every week. I was not raised Catholic in that way. He’s the one who I would say brought me back to the faith. It was when I began homeschooling my children and having children. Then I realized I needed to grow in my faith so I could teach them and pass the faith onto them. **Anne:** How do you feel about your faith now from this experience? **Isabelle:** I love my faith. It is God who rescued me and my children. I don’t know where I would be. I would be dead if it wasn’t for Jesus, and all the time after time that he saved me. It was my faith that got me through it. Just clinging, clinging to Jesus and the cross. I didn’t know what else to do. ## Seeking Safety From This Type of Physical Abuse **Anne:** So, talk about when you started really making your way to safety, after attempting the typical love and serve. **Isabelle:** Yeah, when we started seeing priests and pastoral counselors, and then marital therapists. Many times the message, bottom line was, you don’t know men and their needs well. You need to learn more about what men need. Meet your husband’s needs, and you expect too much of him. Things like that. I believed I could change him. That if I loved him more, if I was more self-sacrificing, maybe he would learn to be compassionate and self-sacrificing, which of course only fed into his addiction, narcissism, all of it. **Anne:** Yeah, people don’t understand that actually makes it worse, because that’s what they want. They’re abusive on purpose to get what they want, and then you’re giving them what they want. They want more love and respect. You turning the other cheek is basically an abuser getting what he wants. **Isabelle:** I said to him, but wait a minute, you said you needed more of this. Or you needed me to change and be more fun. So now I’m being more fun. And then he’d say, well, why would you think that’s what I wanted? That’s not what I meant. This is what I meant. I want you to be like this. And then I’d be like okay, now, wait a minute. So how do I be like that? You know, it was crazy making totally. ## Escaping The Fog His Manipulation **Anne:** Mine told me he wanted me to stop asking questions. One night I decided I wasn’t going to say anything except for just that. Yes or no, and kind of respond to what he was saying. Then he got mad at me for being cold. So I was like, Oh, great. It’s just a no win situation. Right. **Isabelle:** After the ninth baby was born and I survived a suicide attempt, I ended up with anorexia. My therapist, of course, recognized that what I was doing. I was trying to kill myself without actually killing myself, and forced me into treatment. I was then in eating disorder treatment. Hearing stories from other women, meeting other therapists and other people, telling little bits of my story, and seeing how people reacted, this is not normal. I began to get some education on domestic violence and abuse. And our youngest daughter ended up with anorexia. When she was only eight years old. She stopped eating when she was seven. You know, you asked before if that was the moment when I snapped and woke up. **Anne:** I wouldn’t say I woke up. It’s not like you were in denial or anything. It wasn’t your fault. It was just you couldn’t comprehend it for whatever reason. All victims go through that. **Isabelle:** For me, the analogy of almost being asleep works in my case because of the depression and the medications. I mean, the medications just had me in a fog. **Anne:** Yeah, and I think that’s the perfect word to describe it. The fog of abuse. Right? Even if you’re not on medication, it’s like a fog, and coming out of it is like coming out of a fog. ## Trying To Protect The Children **Isabelle:** Yeah, you’re right. That is the better word. His abuse towards my youngest became very physical and overt. He was very covert about a lot. And my eating disorder brought a lot more abuse from him. Also right out into the kitchen, because he would, in front of the kids, plate my food. Then tell me I had to be obedient and eat my food, and it got pretty nasty sometimes. I was not taking it so passively anymore. But when I saw him, I can remember one particular occasion when she tried to run from the table and not eat. He chased her, and she was about 20 pounds underweight at the time, and she was only eight years old. She was tiny, and he grabbed her by the ankles on the steps and pulled her down the steps onto the hardwood floor. I jumped between them and grabbed her. In that moment, I remember thinking, I have to protect my child. It wasn’t about me. It was about protecting my children. Then I started talking to my therapist about, I think we need to get safe. I think we need to get out of here. He’s not ever going to change, is he? At some point in there, she then helped me see that the way he treats my child was exactly the way he treats me. It was okay to say, I won’t be treated this way anymore either. ## **Intersection Of Abuse and Addiction** **Anne:** Talk about the intersection of abuse and addiction. Did you recognize the abuse first or a addiction first? Can you talk about things like exploitative materials use and other things that you observed? **Isabelle:** I did not observe any of that, the addiction I did. Not the exploitative materials. We had therapists say, for years, you know, I think he’s viewing it. I would say, no, he wouldn’t do that. That’s what drove me to start looking at other options and that I needed a divorce. **Anne:** Making your way to safety. Actual safety, not the love, serve, forgive, kind of like pseudo safety. But actually starting to make your way to actual safety. What did that look like for you? **Isabelle:** First, I tried an in-house separation. Let’s try co parenting, living in the same home, and co parenting, but no intimacy of any kind in separate bedrooms. He could not respect that. Even when I was sleeping in my girl’s room, he would just come in there, so that wasn’t working. When my youngest was ill with anorexia, I found a priest who listened. He sent me the United States Bishop’s document on domestic violence. It was reading that shifted the way I was seeing and thinking about what was going on in my home and in my marriage. ## God Does Not Want You To Endure This Type of Physical Non-Intimacy **Anne:** Can you talk about that document? Since I’m not Catholic, I’m not familiar with it. What about it shifted your view? And the reason I ask is because so many of the women who listen to this podcast are religious. They may not necessarily be Catholic, but they feel bound by covenants or promises or their vows. I wonder if what helped you might also help them. **Isabelle:** I took my vow and my covenant seriously. The sacramental nature of my marriage was of the utmost importance to me. I mean, I truly believed my vocation was marriage. So I needed to be self-sacrificing for my husband and children. What helped me in that document was that the Bishops talked about how God does not want anyone to be abused. There’s a difference between making a sacrifice for your husband and when husbands are being abusive. Not only is he harming me, but also because it was also harming my children. Before, he became physically abusive to them, just because their mom was being harmed. That he was also harming himself. My vocation as a wife was that the spouse is what I’m supposed to do and walk the journey to heaven together. Help each other get to heaven, and abuse in a home is not getting anyone to heaven. The bishops go on to say that a wife has not only the right to do what it takes to get herself and her children safe, but also the responsibility. I began to see what was going on from a different perspective. As much as I wanted a loving, healthy marriage. That’s not what we had. ## Marriage Covenants Broken By Abuse **Isabelle:** Although marriage is good, the good and the safety and salvation of our souls are greater. **Anne:** I try to talk to women about that all the time. I’m a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We marry in the temple, and we take our temple covenants very seriously, and we want an eternal marriage. I talk a lot about [what the bible says about divorce and marriage.](https://www.btr.org/marriage-bible-reference/ "what the bible says about divorce and marriage.") It’s the same thing there. You could say, I’m not going to divorce, because I want an eternal marriage, and I made these covenants. But those covenants are just with God. They’re not just with God, but with the other person. But if the other person is not worthy of those covenants, you don’t have an eternal marriage. So all you’re sacrificing for your eternal marriage is in vain. **Isabelle:** Right, and when this priest helped me look at the history, he began to use words like that to me. The fact that, do you understand, he broke the covenant. There was no more covenant, no more sacredness. There was no more sanctity. What he did was evil and wrong. To see that I was not breaking the covenant, it had already been broken. Abuse breaks the covenant. There was no more covenant to protect. I needed to protect myself and my children. Because of my personality type, knowing that doing this really hard thing of asking for a divorce was in a sense also for his good, and his protection by removing myself and the children. I needed to [teach my children how to set boundaries](https://www.btr.org/teaching-children-how-to-set-boundaries/ "teach my children how to set boundaries") as well. ## **Emotional and Psychological Abuse** **Anne:** What ruined the marriage was the abuse. So you experienced all types of abuse. I just want you to pretend. I know this is impossible, but. Yeah, just for a minute, to pretend that you had only experienced the psychological, the lies, the infidelity, the exploitative materials use, the putting you down, the psychological and emotional abuse. Now, it is obvious to you that you had to do something. Because your physical self was in danger. If you can imagine now, being away from it, just the psychological and emotional abuse, would you say your soul was in just as much danger? I don’t want to say that, because so many of our listeners, that is what they’re experiencing, and it’s like a horror show. Like with me, I almost wanted, and he did end up physically hurting me in the end. But I almost wanted him to punch me, because I thought, if he punches me, then I’ll have proof. Then I’ll know that this is what’s happening. But the emotional and psychological abuse was so confusing, and it’s so difficult to track. I just want to let women know, don’t wait until you’re experiencing ongoing abuse. You’re already severely emotionally and psychologically abused. **Isabelle:** I agree with everything you just said, the emotional, psychological, and for me the spiritual abuse also. I mean, it’s soul murder. I believe we are integrated mind, body, and spirit. Abuse of one of those, even if he’s not raping or punching. It’s abusing your person, your personhood. ## It’s Not Intimacy It’s Physical Abuse **Isabelle:** When I went to a support group. One woman there said it happened to her. So I thought okay, well if she said it, then I guess I can say it too. I wasn’t going to be the only one in the room to say it, but I still said, but he’s never been physically abusive. I did that for a couple of years. The counselors there would look at me and say rape is physical abuse, but it took me a few years to think of what he was doing to me as physical abuse. **Anne:** We get it. You’re in the right place. Everybody listening right now understands what you’re saying. Because we’ve all been through, not that exact scenario, but something similar to that. Where we didn’t know what to call it. I worry right now about so many victims who want to be positive and save their marriages. Instead of saying the word abuse, they say things like he struggles. Or he has challenges, or he’s doing so well considering he had an abusive upbringing. Instead of saying he’s abusing me, I’m abused. Especially in addiction circles, so many C-SATs say well, expect relapses, and what they’re asking victims to do is tolerate ongoing abuse rather than get to safety. It’s alarming, which is part of why I started this podcast. But when I started the podcast, God told me to start it. I didn’t understand all these things. Listeners who have listened to me from the beginning can say I didn’t know that. But I know it now, and I now know I don’t know what I don’t know. ## **Setting Boundaries When Your Husband Refuses True Intimacy** **Anne:** Can you talk about how that worsened your situation? **Isabelle:** Yes. I first went to attorneys for a legal separation. Being Catholic, I thought I couldn’t get a divorce, but kids and I need to get out of here. They said, Oh no, you’re being abused. Your children are being abused. You need a divorce if you’re going to be really safe. And even Catholic attorneys told me that you need a divorce. I didn’t tell anyone, even when I hired my first attorney. The first question I asked him was, Will I ever have to talk about things that went on between me and me to get a divorce? Will I have to prove anything? He said oh, no, it’s a no fault state. Anybody can get a divorce. You don’t like that he snores, you can get a divorce. Not quite true. Because I told him, I said, no one will believe me. They will believe him. So I filed for the divorce, and I even told my former husband, when I told him I had filed for the divorce, we can just work this out. ## Finding Safety From Physical Non-Intimacy **Anne:** Was he shocked when you told him? **Isabelle:** He said he was. He sure acted like he was, which I had already told him a few months before that I had seen an attorney about a legal separation. He threatened me that if he heard the words separation, divorce or attorneys come out of my mouth again, he was taking everything we owned and leaving me and the kids. And no one could ever make him pay child support or anything. **Anne:** So you actually do it amid his threats. And my guess is he was kind of shocked. Well, that would be my guess. **Isabelle:** Yeah. I realized that I can be certain that he probably never told me the truth about anything. That everything that even sounded like truth had some sort of distortion. I’d stay in that. That helps me stop trying to figure it out. Because you can make yourself crazy trying to figure them out. I realized I can’t go in his head. What was funny was that I told him, we don’t have to talk about anything. Nobody has to know the things that went on. And even at that point, I was still willing to work out shared parenting, and I was trying to be very, very cooperative and make it simple. ## Living Together & Escalating Abuse **Isabelle:** We had to live together for a few weeks after I filed. He wouldn’t move out. It got to the point where it was just scary. It was very, very scary. And he left the divorce papers in the envelope with a crucifix in the middle of the kitchen counter. Every time I moved them into his office, he’d put them back and say, if you didn’t want to look at this, if you didn’t want the kids to see it, you shouldn’t have done it, take it back. You can still end this. He started following me around the house and trapping me in closets, unlocking the bathroom door and coming in when I was in the shower and not letting me out. It got to the point where I was packing up a bag for myself and my youngest, and leaving the house early in the morning and trying to hide. Moving around town, library, Starbucks, wherever I had to go to try and hide. So finally, after a night of him trapping me in a laundry room for hours, he started with tears in the eyes saying. You know, our problem is that you just don’t want to admit the ways you’ve hurt me. And if you could just admit you haven’t been the perfect wife and that you’ve hurt me, maybe we could work on getting some change. This is after being trapped for two hours. ## An Injury to Intimacy Is Never OK **Isabelle:** I said that was not true, that I always admitted I was not a good wife. But that nothing I had failed to do or done could equal the hurt of him raping me. And he looked at me and said, “There you go, bringing that up again. When will you get over it?” And we didn’t know it, but our teenage daughter heard that part of the conversation. The next day, um, my attorney was able to get him out of the house. He hadn’t hired an attorney yet, and was forced to hire an attorney. The first thing he did was tell his attorney that I was crazy, delusional, and mentally ill, and that I would start saying all these things. He told her all the things I would say, and that they were all lies, and that everyone knew that he was a good Catholic man, husband and father. And if they listened to me, they would think he was a monster. They all knew that wasn’t true, that I was the crazy one. Then, from the beginning, that’s how I was. And I had that to disprove. Not only did I have to prove what he had done, I don’t care if anybody ever knows, now I had to prove it. I had to disprove that I was a delusional liar. ## **Marital Laws** & Court Challenges **Isabelle:** In eight states in our country, this is not a crime. You cannot charge your spouse with a crime if he abuses you in this way. There are spousal exemption laws. **Anne:** And you’re living in one of these states at the time? **Isabelle:** Yes. I had people within the court system who immediately, when they heard that, I thought he had done this, just my thinking that was evidence that I was a liar. Because I was told it’s impossible. A husband can’t rape his wife. You’re lying. Anne: My ecclesiastical leader accused me of being abusive. The proof he had was that I said my husband was abusive. A supportive and nurturing wife does not claim her husband is abusive. So I get that. So here you are. What happened next? **Isabelle:** My attorney gets off the phone with his attorney, their first meeting, and calls me and says, “We have to meet right now.” You’ll have to tell me the story. He’s gone out there and said you’re going to say A, B, C, D, E, F, and G. Well, you have to tell me what happened. Now he’s made it the issue. What I had said nobody ever needed to know, he turned it into the whole issue. It took over three years, several attorneys, guardian ad litem, custody evaluator, further trauma. The people appointed within the court, who were supposed to protect the children, further traumatized them. I know exactly what you meant when you said that, you know, you would wish he would hit you. Anne: I was finally able to free myself from abuse, and everyone can learn how in [Betrayal Trauma Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/ "The Living Free Workshop"). ## Coming Out Of The Fog Of This Type of Coercion **Isabelle:** No one with the system believed what he had done was abuse or physical abuse. And the courts didn’t seem to care about emotional and psychological abuse. Not of me, not of my children. It didn’t matter, in the course of the divorce, that two children needed hospitalization for suicidal ideation. And Children’s Services were notified several times during his parenting time. None of that mattered. It wasn’t until near the end, going to trial, and he actually, in front of three older children, bit my youngest child hard enough that there was still a bite mark when she got home to me. I was able to get her to the guardian ad litem so she could see the evidence. And then she had to stop saying that the children and I lied, that we were the liars. We still went to trial. I can see now, and even at the time, there were moments of almost despair, but there were also moments when I could see that God was at work, and that his timing is perfect, and he knows the whole story. He can see it all. And we have tunnel vision. In the end, it had to take that long and get to that point. Because now my children don’t have to see him unless they want to. The attorneys, everyone said that that is miraculous. **Anne:** My kids felt the same way when we went through it. [Co-parenting with a narcissist](/fighting-a-narcissist-for-custody/) is unbearable.They didn’t want to have to go when they didn’t want to. But they were forced to go and they hated it. ## **Post-Divorce Reflections** **Isabelle:** In the end, it all worked out beyond what anyone could imagine. The safety and peace that we have now. Before, I lived in an absolute nightmare. Whether I was awake or asleep, it was just a nightmare. And now there’s days when I walk around and I’m like, wait a minute, am I dreaming? Am I awake? It’s like, is this real? **Anne:** Do you feel like, I feel like sometimes. Maybe this is just a terrible thing to say, but when I’m at church, and the other women at church are talking about like the HOA. And how like they charge them an extra $25 at the HOA, just stuff like that, that they’re concerned about. I’m smiling and thinking, oh you poor women who are upset about the HOA. Oh, who cares about the HOA? I don’t know if that’s how you feel sometimes. Oh, I’m so blessed and life is so good that these little things aren’t a big deal. I’m sure even with the safety that you feel, there are still things happening. Are you completely away from him now? **Isabelle:** No, not completely away in a different home now. ## **Chronic Pelvic Floor Dysfunction** & PTSD **Isabelle:** So do you know of chronic pelvic floor dysfunction? Do I need to describe what that is? **Anne:** Yeah, you should describe it. I don’t know. And then I’m sure some other listeners don’t know. But I’m guessing it has something to do with being repeatedly abused, and having nine kids. **Isabelle:** For years, I had debilitating physical pain. Sometimes the pain was all over my entire body. I was diagnosed with fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, herniated discs, and all kinds of back diagnosis. Tested for Lupus repeatedly, and just thrown on lots and lots of meds to try this and try that. Nothing worked. Years and years of physical therapy. It wasn’t until he was forced to move out of the marital residence that all of a sudden PTSD symptoms popped up. I guess that’s because when you’re actually still being abused, it’s not considered PTSD. **Anne:** No, it’s still trauma, constant trauma. Women living with their abuser may say things like, I got triggered today. I need to know how to deal with the triggers. I’m thinking no, you are triggered because you’re still in abuse. **Isabelle:** Yeah, this was like flashbacks and PTSD nightmares, and that all started. The pain I experienced was primarily in my pelvic area, my hips, my back, and it would shoot down my legs. And so it began to trigger, like, memories of the abuse that I didn’t even have a conscious memory of. I would start to see them, feel them, relive them. So now the pain, I’m living in this chronic pain, is triggering all these memories. ## Consequences Of These Injuries **Isabelle:** There were moments, even driving the car, when I suddenly heard screaming, Get off of me! It became a real problem in the divorce case, because it looked like I was crazy to people who didn’t believe I had been traumatized. Why did I have PTSD now? Why were my kids saying I was crying all the time and not able to sleep? It was very scary, because they used it to try and threaten to take the kids from me. Well, if you’re not well, you know, the kids shouldn’t be living with you. I ended up seeing a new physical therapist, a young woman who, after only treating me a few times for my back pain, asked me if she could ask me a personal question. She asked me if I’d ever been abused. And of course I said why? Why would you even ask that? She said that first of all, she could feel fear. She could feel fear when she touched me. And she said those muscles in a woman clench and tighten like that because they’re trying to protect. That’s what they do, is protect that part of your body. And she said what you need is an internal pelvic floor therapist. This isn’t a back problem, it’s your internal muscles, it’s your pelvic floor muscles. It took me a long time to get up the courage to go see someone, and I went through a few years, doctors who specialized in chronic pelvic floor pain, an internal physical floor therapist, Botox injections where they put me to sleep and did 10 needles into my pelvic floor. ## Chronic Pain Due To Domestic Abuse **Isabelle:** Nothing worked. It got to the point where they all said, “Look until you’re divorced and you go through years of EMDR (eye movement desensitization and reprocessing) therapy.” And get over the PTSD. We can’t do anything more for the pelvic pain, and one of them was ready to testify at my divorce trial that she’d never work. She’ll never be healed from this. Finally, the divorce gets done. One of the things that I was using to try and cope with the pain and the flashbacks from the pain was that my therapist had made me Catholic guided visualizations and muscle relaxation recordings. Progressive muscle relaxation takes you through each of the parts of your body and has you relax those muscles. **Anne:** Oh, yeah, the meditations have that in every one of the meditations. Yeah, in the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). That works so well. **Isabelle:** And she added to it having Jesus standing there. Touching me, and feeling his warmth and healing power, relaxing my muscles and his tenderness. She would move into him, touching my back, my abdomen, and my pelvic floor muscles, relaxing in the warmth of his healing. On that day, on that night, lying there in my bed, I started sobbing and said, Jesus, I’m so tired. I can’t keep just imagining you touching me and healing me. I can’t do this. I’m so tired. ## **Miraculous Healing** **Isabelle:** Immediately this warmth and this comforting, I don’t know, I want to call it a heaviness, but not the heaviness I knew of, sadness and suffocation. This felt like being held tightly, warmth and peace. And I felt those muscles just give, like just relax. And they hadn’t relaxed in 20 some years. I actually fell asleep lying on my back, and I slept through the night. I woke up and thought, Oh Jesus, you gave me a good night’s sleep. Thank you. I thought that was the miracle. I had slept through the night without any nightmares. He gave me a good night’s sleep. Thank you. I got up and started getting the children ready for school. When I bent down in the kitchen to pick something up, I just stood up, I didn’t have to hold on to the counter. Oh my gosh, something’s wrong. Where’s my pain? Where’s my pain? It’s never come back. ## **Life After Healing** **Isabelle:** After about a month of no pain, I went back to the internal pelvic floor therapist and asked her to please do an exam, and feel those muscles and see where they healed. She had tears in her eyes, and she said, “I cannot explain it”. She said, “I would expect more dysfunction in your pelvic floor”. Just for being the age you are, having the number of kids you do, never exercising, and they’re healed. She said, they are soft. She told me, they used to feel like hard, dry clay. And it was so painful, because I would just begin to have flashbacks and I have no pain. And when He healed the physical pain. It healed the PTSD. I no longer take any medications of any kind. There’s no depression. There’s no bipolar. It was all abuse. It was all the effects of abuse. **Anne:** That is an amazing story. I’m so grateful that you shared it. ## Reflections on **Miracles** **Anne:** I’ve been thinking about miracles a lot lately. Like, big miracles. There are things in my life that I want to see a big miracle for. And it’s interesting to me that you weren’t necessarily looking for a big miracle, you just wanted to relax in that moment. I wrote down all the big miracles that I would like to see. And I wrote them on a piece of paper and said a prayer. I said, God, I can’t do the loaves and the fishes or bring Lazarus back to life or anything like that. I’ve tried those things, and I’m not spiritual enough or capable. I said, these are the things I would like to see, but I’m gonna leave it up to you. I put it in a drawer, and I’ve just left it there. But hearing your story gives me hope, not necessarily for the miracles I want, but to surrender my will and my life to God and let him bring to pass the miracles that he sees fit. I’m so grateful to hear your story. That’s the miracle that he bestowed on you, in addition to all the tiny miracles that both of us probably see every day and maybe don’t recognize. ## Faith & Miracles **Isabelle:** You know, that’s when you talked about here other women and the things they’re worried about and complaining about. I don’t worry anymore. Like that, to me, is a miracle. I have seen what God can do, what He saved us from, little miracle, big miracle. What do I have to worry about? What will He not take care of when I trust Him? Now I see miracles all the time, everything. I think about how true it is that when you have seen the deepest, blackest darkness, then the light’s so beautiful and brilliant. Sometimes I just say to Him, God, when are the miracles going to stop? You don’t have to give me anymore. You’re overwhelming me. But I think it’s because we’ve seen the darkness that now is what other people miss. Sometimes, I don’t miss it anymore because I know what it’s like on the other side. **Anne:** Yeah. And I’m grateful to talk to you today, because I think I’ve been. I don’t know if angry is the right word, probably resentful, frustrated, but there are these prayers I’ve been praying. That would take a huge miracle. I mean, like, he’s answering the little prayers. Like, just over this week, we got to this camp spot, and it didn’t work out. And I told my kids, pray we’ll find a better camp spot. We drove up, and there was a great camp spot. I had everybody pray and be grateful. So I’m like, okay, he’s answering all these little prayers, and these big ones aren’t happening. ## Prayers **Isabelle:** Do you know what, though? Do you think you could look and see if the big ones are, but they’re not happening in one big shocking moment? **Anne:** That’s what prompted me to write them down. I recognized that that part of my problem is that I have so much faith. When I pray, I know God can do things, he doesn’t do them, and I know they’re good. It’s not like I’m praying. **Isabelle**: To win the lottery or just so we can go buy some new clothes and cars. **Anne:** Although that would be great. I know these would be good things, and they don’t happen. I get like, why? You’re God, you can do anything. It feels like it’s purposefully withholding or something. I recognize all the little ones. So I decided, I’m just going to write these down. These are the things I’m frustrated about. I’m going to put them in a box, and I’m going to pray about it. I’m going to give it to him. Since then, I’ve been praying that my desires and my will are in line with his, so that I can see the miracles he wants to give me. The ones that he decides this is the right thing for you. I can recognize that and live in gratitude, rather than just being like frustrated all the time. Like why isn’t this happening? **Isabelle:** Yeah, I think that’s huge. I would pray when I was in all that pain, especially in the divorce, because I knew they could use it to take the kids from me. On top of that, the pain and the flashbacks, it was like, it was so scary. ## **Trusting God’s Timing** **Isabelle:** And I would pray and say, why, I know you can do miracles. If you can heal me with one word, why are you not healing this? Part of it was his timing, like he knew the right timing for it. My pelvic floor therapist, you know, she said, I always knew God would heal you. But I thought it would take a lot of time, and we’d have to work hard at it. **Anne:** The other thing I think is fascinating is that He can heal you instantly, and He did. Why not during the divorce proceedings, where you’re in so much pain logically speaking with our mortal minds? That’s a good time to heal you, because then you may have been more confident, stronger, or less emotional. **Isabelle:** This is what I learned. I learned to trust in him, that he knows better than I do, and that even in the horrible physical and emotional pain, with Jesus with me, I can do all things. People have said you were unstoppable. You were absolutely, how did you do it? It was not humanly possible. And so now I can witness to people that with Jesus, if you rely on Jesus. You can, you can do all things through him, you can, and I did it. ## **Witnessing God’s Love** **Isabelle:** It’s hard for me to say I did it, probably the first time I have actually said I did it out loud. Because it’s hard for me to take any credit for it. But I could not have done it alone. The thing is, people hear my story. And the people I know who walked my story with me are like, there’s no way it’s not humanly possible. God was with you, because no one could do that alone. **Anne:** I’m proud and honored to hear your story, especially at a time like this in my particular life, where I hope and pray for miracles that I’m not necessarily seeing yet or maybe ever, but to know that they do happen. And the angels are with us, and that God loves us. I want all our listeners praying for miracles to know that even though you might not recognize it right now, or you might not see it. But that it will happen or something like it. I prayed for a miracle in 2015. Then a few months later, my ex was actually arrested. Which is not what I thought the miracle would look like. But that’s what it looked like for me. **Isabelle:** Yeah, that may be because our human sight is short sighted. When we think our prayer only has one way that it could possibly be answered. God’s up there saying, Oh no, you know what? I can see a hundred possibilities for answering that prayer. ## **Message to Women in Similar Situations** **Isabelle:** He does it in a way that is not what we thought. But it is always coming back to the fact that he is love. He is love, nothing but love. Sometimes, after being abused by a narcissist, it’s incomprehensible. Most of the time, to see how God loves. It’s so different. Just trusting in that love, and he only wants what’s good for us. **Anne:** Isabelle, I appreciate your faith and your testimony today, and your willingness to share such a vulnerable story. I know so many other women are going through similar things, and I hope that through listening to this podcast, they come away with a few things. Number one, that God loves them and that they have not been abandoned. If they hold on to God’s love and know that they don’t deserve to be abused and harmed. Even if it’s just psychologically. Even if it’s just, I put just in air quotes, emotional abuse, even if it’s just that their husband is viewing this stuff, which is a gateway to harm and abuse. They can make their way to safety, because they deserve to be absolutely adored and loved, like God loves them. I hope that women can take that with them today, knowing that through your story, they can know that God loves them too. Just as much as He loves you and continues to love you. ## **Created for Love, Not Abuse** **Isabelle:** And he made us us, we were created by love for love, and we are loved not for abuse. We’re not created for abuse. **Anne:** And abuse is Satan, right? Satan’s tool. And women who have been in our situation, I feel like we’ve looked in the eyes of evil. We’ve seen evil. We’ve had it in our home thank you. Thank you so much for your time, Isabelle. **Isabelle:** Thank you. Thank you. ## **Educating Women on Abuse** **Anne:** The reason I want to talk about and educate women about verbal abuse or emotional abuse is because if they know about infidelity, usually women focus on that. Which is a good thing to focus on, but they also don’t realize how they’re psychologically or emotionally abused. If they’re educated about it, they can make good decisions. I think as women learn more about psychological, verbal, emotional, and spiritual abuse, they can better assess the safety of their situation. For women afraid of the word abuse, or they’re thinking, oh, I don’t want to go down this road because I don’t want to get divorced. If you put your safety first, and if you think I will learn about what it means to be safe, then you will make your way to a better place, whatever that is. Some of you in your study of emotional abuse might realize that your husband is not emotionally abusive in these ways. And that can put your mind at ease and comfort your heart. Learning about it is not the problem. The abuse in itself is the problem. I always want you to remember that. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [How to Use Art Therapy For Trauma - Corrine's Story](https://www.btr.org/art-therapy-for-trauma/) **Published:** November 22, 2022 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Can't express your trauma and pain? Art therapy is powerful in processing betrayal and emotional abuse. **Content:** Many victims of emotional and psychological abuse wonder if art therapy for trauma can help with symptoms. Here’s what you need to know. If you relate, you may wonder if you are experiencing emotional abuse. Did you know there are 19 different types of emotional abuse? See if you’re suffering from this type of trauma by taking our [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ## Transcript: How to Use Art Therapy For Trauma **Anne:** I have a member of our community, [Betrayal Trauma Recovery has live group sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/), on today’s episode. We’re going to call her Corrine, she’s an artist. **Corrine:** Hello. **Anne:** You used your art as therapy for the trauma you experienced when you discovered your husband’s sexual addiction. How did you find out? **Corrine:** It was kind of baptism by fire. I got married, only to find out that my husband had a lot of issues that I wasn’t aware of. It involved lying, it involved covering things up. A lot of unhealthy things that were very hurtful and led to a lot of trauma, where I would put up walls, isolate myself even further, and of course nothing would get solved. It’s very, very dysfunctional. But I didn’t know how this led to my shopping, eating, anger, not healthy cycles. **Anne:** Yeah, when we met, you had been processing your betrayal trauma through the context of codependency. ## Things had to change from codependency **Anne:** Can you tell me how you thought of them in the context of codependency, and then how you’re feeling now about the abuse model. Since we have discussed [weaponized codependency](https://www.btr.org/codependents-anonymous/ "weaponized codependency"). How has it been like transitioning to thinking about his addiction as an abuse issue? **Corrine:** So, I noticed a cycle of betrayal that resulted in trauma, this unseen wound, which led to PTSD symptoms within myself, which created a wall within myself, so I could not receive or give love. I became selective in who I would talk with, like I would function, and talk to people, but I wouldn’t let people in. I was good at doing what was expected, getting along, making things smooth, but I was not good at being personal and talking to people in a real way. **Anne:** So, let me see if I can restate. Were you resisting the abuse, trying to keep yourself safe? And since you weren’t aware that you were being abused, It felt like hiding yourself in that way. It made you a little safer. **Corrine:** Yeah, exactly. And so I became very non-authentic for a long time, and it hurt me. It hurt my art. Just a few years ago, it kind of came to a head. It really hit me that things had to change. Obviously, we can only change ourselves. And when I did that, I started healing. **Anne:** We’ve had women on who talk about [songs about healing from trauma](https://www.btr.org/songs-about-healing-from-trauma/ "songs about healing from trauma"), but not someone who uses art. So as you focused on your own healing. What kinds of breakthroughs have you seen with art therapy for trauma, and how have these breakthroughs played out? ## Art Therapy for trauma: Breakthroughs in Healing **Corrinne:** I remember one night coming back from a class, and I knew I had to be honest with myself. Because I didn’t feel safe. I had shut down my feelings. I had shut down certain memories as a protective measure. And so I was able to get really honest and have that breakthrough, even though it was so difficult. One of the best things I learned was that I needed to trust them to be themselves. It was vital for them to have a chance to fail or succeed. **Anne:** Yeah, I talk about this in [my Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). Which is the workshop I developed to help women see their husband’s true character, observe from a safe distance, and see who he really is. [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) teaches women thought strategies, communication strategies, and boundaries strategies. To help keep themselves safe. That’s such an interesting place that you came to. Probably a lot of listeners are thinking that’s so ironic that she would learn to trust someone who is untrustworthy, but what you’re trusting is that what he’s showing you is who he really is. **Corrine:** The way I think of it is, I trust them to be them, themselves. It leads me to say, okay, I know this person. I know what they’ve done before, and I trust them to be themselves. I trust me to be me. To expect anything different is counterproductive. And then that was a step up for me. **Anne:** So for me, I would say, If I’m going to trust my ex-husband to be himself, then I know I can’t trust him. **Corrine:** Yeah, yeah. ## Trust & Boundaries **Anne:** If I trust him to be himself, I know I need to set boundaries around this. Because I don’t want the chaos to come into my home. **Corrine:** Because that’s what they’ve shown us, right? Kind of try to narrow this down. The first and foremost thing is that we cannot control other people. We can show them. I think that’s more effective than telling anyone what we want them to do. They have choices that they can make. We can set boundaries. For example, as a protective measure, I only make food for the people who are kind to me. So it’s best if I focus on myself, my choices, my healing, and to be lovingly honest with myself. In fact, just this week, I had to get honest with myself so that I can achieve what I want. **Anne:** So let’s talk about your art, because I love it. Your paintings were so beautiful. I want to know about your exhibit. I want to talk about the different ways women can process it, like art therapy for trauma, the creative ways they can express themselves. **Corrine:** Oh, awesome. I love this. ## Art therapy for trauma: The Power of Creative Expression **Corrine:** As far as the exhibit goes, that is something that resulted from when this unseen wound was discovered. When I came clean about my marriage situation and told the entire story on Facebook. I became public with it and gave up the complete secrecy of it all. And I saw this weight lift off myself from this dark space into this space of light, and hope to continue to move forward in a positive way. Because of that, I started painting, and saw it from a whole different perspective. It’s a visual perspective, not a word, a language. So it’s more about feelings. It’s about your heart and your head being engaged, instead of just logic or emotion separately. When I started this series, gathering artists who also told their story, their resurrection, in a way. Because when you let go of all that, you become essentially a whole new person. And so you can realize that you are a powerful being, that you can move forward As far as the idea of using art therapy for trauma, to recover from betrayal. Seriously, it’s one of the most powerful things. You can give a child some artwork supplies, and you can say tell me how you feel. They may not have the language to do it, but they can portray how they’re feeling. It doesn’t matter that this piece of art has not been put in a museum, you can feel how they’re feeling just by looking at it. And you can get a good picture, a story. Even though they don’t have the language to tell you everything. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## Processing Trauma Without words **Corrine:** You can do [betrayal meditations](https://www.btr.org/free-betrayal-trauma-meditation/ "betrayal meditations") and get really centered, and then you can have an image in your mind that you can put on paper, canvas or in clay. And start to understand yourself even better. Where you’re coming from and what you need to learn to progress. A lot of people have had breakthroughs just by doing that. **Anne:** Yeah, the idea that you could process trauma without talking is such a relief to me. That’s exactly why I wrote the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). Because there are only so many words. Sometimes I couldn’t get through to my trauma through my writing, which is my creative outlet. So those meditations helped me deep down into my feelings and body. You can learn more by clicking that link. There are so many ways to process our trauma without speaking, like art therapy for trauma. **Corrine:** It’s not about displaying something. It’s about an emotion. When you find a medium that is yours, this may require getting a little messy, trying some different things. And not just a medium, but a style that is yours. Then it won’t feel awkward, and you won’t have to feel like you’re trying so hard. If it’s painting, one thing you can do is look at different painters, maybe color field painters, maybe different line qualities. I was able to teach a class. We talked about, is there a feeling in this picture? It’s just color blocks. But there was this resonance, this vibrancy to it, and you could feel it. And because of that, it was a good piece of art. It wasn’t, oh look, it looks like a person. That’s what a camera is for. ## Find a way that works for you **Corrine:** What we tried to focus on was, how does it feel? And it’s important when you’re trying to heal somehow to figure out how you’re actually feeling. **Anne:** Yeah, you talked about that at the beginning, getting honest with yourself to know how you’re feeling and why. We have exercises like that in the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/), which helps women get in touch with their feelings. Art is another way to do that. I actually garden, and that’s one way that helps me process my feelings, working with dirt. There are so many ways to process these emotions. You can seek out [emotional abuse groups online. ](/emotional-abuse-support-groups-online/) **Corrine:** The important thing is to find a solution that will support you, and you can actually heal and move forward. **Anne:** Yeah, that is the goal, to find a way to [heal from emotional abuse](https://www.btr.org/how-long-does-it-take-to-heal-from-emotional-abuse/)[.](https://www.btr.org/how-long-does-it-take-to-heal-from-emotional-abuse/) that works for you. Whether it’s art therapy for trauma, or some other way. Like I mentioned in this episode, we have the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) that will help you discover what will work for you. Well, Corrine, thank you so much. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts today. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Here's How To Help Your Daughter In An Abusive Relationship](https://www.btr.org/daughter-in-an-abusive-relationship/) **Published:** November 15, 2022 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Is your daughter in abusive relationship? Here's what you need to know to help her. **Content:** If you want to help your daughter in an abusive relationship, Anne’s mother and sister share how they could have helped her. If you feel like this emotional abuse quiz could help her, have her take this [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). Discover if she is experiencing any one of the 19 types of emotional abuse. ![Help Daughter in an Abusive Relationship](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Help-Daughter-In-An-Abusive-Relationship.webp "Help Daughter in an Abusive Relationship")## 1. Help Your Daughter Identify The Abuse “I described my husband’s behavior, physically intimidating me, yelling in my face, manipulating me, gaslighting me, and unsafe behavior by him. But even then, I didn’t realize I was in an abusive relationship.” Tragically, emotional abuse is difficult to identify for both victims and their support systems. As family and friends honestly and authentically communicate with the victim about their concerns, victims may identify the abuse quicker and take appropriate actions to get to safety. ## 2. Help Your Daughter In An Abusive Relationship By Taking Her Seriously When family and friends minimize the abuse, they are re-traumatizing victims. Anne’s sister shared, “Anne would call and say there’d been a fight. I would often say things like: everyone has problems in their marriage, or I’d try to downplay it. I was trying to normalize maybe what had happened or relate to it in some way. But that only made things worse for her.” ![Daughter in an Abusive Relationship](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Daughter-In-An-Abusive-Relationship.webp "Daughter in an Abusive Relationship")#### Minimizing Abuse Looks Like This Wondering what forms the minimization of abuse takes? Here are some things that family and friends may say minimize and/or justify abuse: - Everyone has their problems - What did you do to make him act like that? - Are you sure you’re not exaggerating? - Everyone gets angry now and then - Choose your love and love your choice - Don’t nag about your husband – it’s not right - We all know he has a temper, but that’s just how he is - Think about your kids – don’t separate or divorce or they’ll have a broken home ## 3. Help Your Daughter By Validating Her Offer your daughter support. Listening, believing, and offering support are powerful ways to validate a victim’s experiences. Let her know she’s not alone. Tell her about daily [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/). ![Help Your Daughter in an Abusive Relationship](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Help-Your-Daughter-In-An-Abusive-Relationship.webp "Help Your Daughter in an Abusive Relationship")## Transcript: How To Help Your Daughter In An Abusive Relationship **Anne:** Today, I have my mom and sister, who we will call mom and sister. Say hi, guys. **Anne’s Sister:** Hello **Anne’s Mom:** Hi **Anne:** They will talk about their experience supporting me or not supporting me through what happened. Many of you asked how to talk to your friends and family about what’s happening to you. When I was married, I would call you with concerns and tell you what was going on. Because the whole time I was honest about what was happening, how would you react before you knew it was abuse, and what types of advice would you give? So, let’s start with my sister. **Anne’s Sister:** So, I remember many times Anne called and said there had been a fight, and that things had gotten out of hand, and that terrible things had happened. And I would often say everyone has problems in their marriage, or try to try to normalize maybe what had happened. Or relate to it in some way. I didn’t realize it was outside what should be happening, I guess. I didn’t know [how to recognize victim blaming ](https://www.btr.org/how-to-recognize-victim-blaming/ "how to recognize victim blaming ")in myself. **Anne:** Mom? **Anne’s Mom:** That’s the same with me. Sometimes you’d call me like at 2 or 3 in the morning, and you’d say he’s running outside in his underwear, and I’d think, that’s really odd. Why is he doing that? What would possess him to do that? So, there were some odd things that you would say he had done, or some things that happened that I knew were odd. Of course, I didn’t know how to my daughter in an abusive marriage. ![How to Know if Your Daughter is Experiencing Abuse in Her Relationship](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Know-If-Your-Daughter-Is-Experiencing-Abuse-In-Her-Relationship.webp "How to Know if Your Daughter is Experiencing Abuse in Her Relationship")## Understanding Abuse: A Learning Curve **Anne’s Mom:** I just thought, well, maybe that’s what he’s like. Maybe he’s just that way, and I probably advised you. I don’t remember the exact words I said, but I think I remember something like, well, how do you think you should handle that? What do you want to do? Maybe you could do something that would lessen that reaction. I don’t know if I said those things, but that’s what I think I would say. I had no thoughts of my daughter actually being in an abusive relationship. **Anne:** Yeah, you guys were both super supportive. It’s not like you ever told me to do something I didn’t want to do. Like, I would tell you what had happened, and you’d be like, that’s weird, but this is probably the reason, or I wonder what the reason is. It was like we were all confused, but tried to give him the benefit of the doubt. This is also something to consider when [helping your daughter avoid teenage abuse.](https://www.btr.org/how-to-help-your-daughter-avoid-teenage-abuse/ "helping your daughter avoid teenage abbuse.") **Anne’s Sister:** The biggest mistake I think I made is that I said things like, what did you do to start the problem? Or maybe next time this happens, you could do this. Not understanding it had literally nothing to do with what you were doing, or how abuse works. Thinking that if you reacted differently, or if something’s changed, then he would no longer react this way. Just totally misunderstanding, because I had no idea how it worked, or that this was abuse. So I didn’t know. **Anne:** Yeah, why did you think you didn’t see it as abuse at the time? I mean, I told you about his exploitative materials use, so you guys knew that this use was happening. ![How to Know if Your Daughter is Being Abused](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Know-If-Your-Dauguter-Is-Being-Abused.webp "How to Know if Your Daughter is Being Abused")## The Role Of Pornography & Anger Issues **Anne:** And that was my biggest complaint, or was it? I mean, maybe it wasn’t. I think we talked about the exploitative material and anger. From my viewpoint at the time, I thought they were the same thing. And if you got the use under control. Then the, I don’t remember if I told you that, but why do you think you didn’t see it as abuse at the time? **Anne’s Mom:** I think the reason why I didn’t think it was abuse is that I knew your [husband had an anger problem](https://www.btr.org/how-to-deal-with-angry-husband/ "husband had an anger problem"). You had told me he had those problems, and he spoke publicly about those problems, the use, and the anger issues. But I thought he had “anger issues,” and he was working on them. In fact, I tended your little baby for three days. While he went to the foremost nationwide anger conference that he seemed excited about and thrilled about. And so I thought he was doing all that he possibly could, and that he was just having a hard time managing that. I had not a clue that my daughter is in an abusive relationship. And that these were occasional outbursts that needed to somehow be allowed for. **Anne:** Right, because he was “working on it.” **Anne:** We were being patient with him as he did that. Rather than realizing Oh, she’s being abused right now. **Anne’s Mom:** That’s true, and I hadn’t learned much about boundaries. Even though I have used them in my life, I was not thinking in those terms. I wasn’t thinking she needs to set boundaries. ![Know if Your Daughter is Experiencing Abuse in Her Relationship](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Know-If-Your-Daughter-Is-Experiencing-Abuse-In-Her-Relationship.webp "Know if Your Daughter is Experiencing Abuse in Her Relationship")**Anne:** You need to be safe now. Like you’re not safe in this moment. **Anne’s Sister:** I misunderstood what abuse is and what it looks like. Ignorance about what abuse is, was the main problem. ## Recognizing That my Daughter Is In An Abusive Relationship Because we used to call it his time of the month, because about once a month you would call. And some crazy thing had happened. But the rest of the time he was great, so we’d say, oh I guess it was just his time of the month. I didn’t understand emotional abuse and that it’s not that someone’s always terrible to be around. **Anne:** What you were seeing, that you didn’t know you were seeing, was the abuse cycle. **Anne:** I didn’t know it was abuse either, at the time, so we were all in the dark. If you could go back in time, what would you do now, or what types of advice would you give people in that stage now? **Anne’s Mom:** Allow them to talk and listen to what they had to say, what they thought about it. And how they felt about it. Everybody gets angry from time to time. That’s not abusive, but there’s a line that people really cannot go over, which is hard to determine when you’re in that situation. ![Do You Have A Safe Person?](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/QgWLaB34xIE/maxresdefault.jpg) And so, if they were feeling unsafe, that’s a real red flag. Is my daughter in an abusive relationship? If they were feeling threatened, unsafe, intimidated, forced, those kinds of things would be a real concern. And I think maybe at this point in time, once I’d listened to them and tried to understand exactly what was happening. I would suggest they get safe somehow. And then revisit it and think through it. Process what was actually happening. **Anne:** People would ask me, do you feel safe? And I would say yes. Because I didn’t think he would hit me. One of the things might be like, do you feel emotionally safe, right? ## Identifying Abuse & Seeking Help **Anne:** Do you feel supported? Do you feel loved, cherished and cared about? **Anne’s Mom:** Maybe, but then you were also saying he was shoving you up against the wall. He was spitting, yelling and screaming in your face. So those kinds of things are not safe. **Anne:** No **Anne’s Mom:** But you said you felt safe. My daughter being in abusive relationship wasn’t on my radar. **Anne:** I know. I just read an article on CNN about one of the Larry Nassar victims, and didn’t see herself as a victim for two years. It took her a long time to figure out that she was actually a victim of his abuse, and she defended him for a while. Abuse victims, we don’t see it. I remember telling the clergy and therapists that I felt safe, and telling you that. At the same time, I remember saying, if I go missing, it’s him. For victims, if we focus on emotional safety first, rather than physical safety. It might be a little easier to determine. There was so much I didn’t know about an [abusive husband’s therapist.](https://www.btr.org/your-abusive-husbands-therapist/ "abusive husband's therapist.") [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) **Anne’s Sister:** I think helping the person identify that it’s abuse is a big deal. Because I remember the first time you identified some of his behaviors as domestic violence. And before then, they hadn’t encouraged you that’s what was happening. Or you’re continuing to try to say why it’s not abuse. So I would try to help them notice that without being too forceful. **Anne:** Yeah, because if they don’t think they’re being abused, it makes it difficult. ## Her Husband’s Arrest & Realizing My Daughter Is In An Abusive Marriage **Anne’s Sister:** Right, and then also to try to get them to a professional who knows more about it than I do. And get them some help, because I don’t know what I’m talking about. **Anne:** So well, now we have Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Now you can send them here, but before we didn’t have that. So it was hard, because betrayal trauma is a form of insidious abuse that can lead to physical violence. It’s scary. **Anne’s Mom:** The other thing about that is that even though you’d seen that counselor, it wasn’t until after he was arrested. **Anne:** Which was a month later. **Anne’s Mom:** Yes, and we were sent to Safe Harbor for battered women. They recommended we read a book. And once we read that, it was like, whoa, this is abuse. The realization that my daughter is in an abusive relationship was devastating. It was check, check, check. Maybe some more traditional things weren’t there, like isolation. But he was physically intimidating, and he was violent in a way that didn’t show marks, I guess. **Anne:** It did on my walls. I had holes in my walls, and then the last time I had the bruises on my butt and my hand was sprained. **Anne’s Mom:** Yes, and it was interesting because we thought he was getting better. We thought he was working on it, but looking over time, he was actually getting worse. The thing that was helpful to me was once I identified it as abuse, and once I gave the book to you, Mom, and you read it. You believed me. **Anne’s Mom:** Yes. **Anne’s Sister:** Yeah. **Anne:** So at that point, it wasn’t like, no, no, no, you are overreacting. Both of you were like, oh, this explains it. ## How To Support Someone After Abuse Is Identified **Anne:** For friends and family: when she identifies the abuse, don’t talk her out of it. Don’t be like, no, no, no. If he’s abusive, yikes, you might have to get divorced, or this is serious. I think many clergy, friends and family try to talk someone out of it. The consequences are so extreme. **Anne’s Sister:** That’s exactly what I think my main problem was. I was looking at it from a perspective of, let’s save this, let’s not let it go out of control. Thinking that the best possible thing would be to stay together, with no idea that abuse was happening. So, my advice was always based on the idea that let’s work this out. It can’t be that bad, because it needs to work out. Giving advice based on saving the relationship. It’s more important to stay safe, totally. **Anne’s Mom:** It’s also more important for the abuser because when they are faced with what they’re doing and the consequences of those actions, it could possibly be a motivation for change. **Anne:** Right, in my case, he hasn’t changed yet. He’s continuing to lie, and that’s sad. So I have to continue to hold boundaries. Let’s talk about when I called both of you and told you that he screamed in my face and spit in my face. Do you guys remember this? **Anne’s Mom:** Yes. **Anne’s Sister:** At least a few times, which time? **Anne:** We’ve talked about general things that you would do. **Anne’s Mom:** He wasn’t spitting in your face as just a spit. It was because he was so close, and he was yelling and screaming, that spit flew from his mouth into your face. I was witnessing my daughter being in an abusive relationship. ## What To Do In Acute Situations **Anne:** Yeah, and he was like bright red and was also saying awful things. **Anne’s Mom:** And he is much larger, and stronger, and looming over you, or pushing you up against a wall. **Anne:** And it was scary. Yeah, so in an acute situation like that, what would you say now? If I call and say this happened ten minutes ago? I’m freaking out, what should I do? For listeners who are like, okay, I want my mom and my sister to hear this. What do you think would have been the right thing to do in that particular, specific situation? **Anne’s Sister:** I’m on my way over, right now. I’m in the car, I’m on my way over, you need another adult there, to either say we’re packing up and getting out of the house or you just need some support. You need a witness to have someone there so that your loved one feels safe. **Anne’s Mom:** Now that we’ve done the Safe Harbor thing, now that we’ve read, now that we understand a little more. Any time now when there’s a slightest amount of abuse or escalation, I would also advise you to get out of there. Leave if you possibly can, because it’s not safe, and you should not be there if that’s happening. **Anne:** The best case scenario for women is that they stay in their homes, and that the abuser leaves. So, sister’s recommendation, like, I will be there if you’re within driving distance. Like, get there and he needs to leave, you’re gonna need some backup. Clergy, family, friends, to get him out of the house. Because in my situation, he refused to leave. ## Updating Advice For A Daughter In An Abusive Relationship **Anne:** I asked him to, and he refused. It wasn’t until he sprained my fingers and the police forced him to leave that he actually left. **Current Day Anne:** This is the current day, and I’m interjecting here. We recorded this episode years ago. The advice I gave next was not accurate. And so I’m replacing it with saying that since then, I’ve learned safety strategies that I would now recommend. And I’ve written them all in [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). While I edit this bad advice so nobody hears it, I don’t want anyone harmed by my process of learning what to do. **Anne:** That, I think, is good. I started doing Grey Rock, and it got worse. I just started being like, no, yes, and try not to talk to him. And it got worse, because he was like, why aren’t you talking to me? Why aren’t you reacting like you used to? And that kind of made things worse. So, we’re just gonna conclude now with some tips that you might have for any woman who is married to a user. After what you’ve seen me go through, being a daughter in an abusive relationship. ## Concluding Tips For Women Married To exploitative material Users **Anne’s Sister:** I think the first one is don’t underestimate the amount of abuse happening and obviously you talk about this extensively on the podcast. **Anne’s Mom:** Yes, I agree. Support them by believing them and listening to them. Also, by being there for them if they need babysitting, whatever they might need, be there for them and with them. Sometimes family members of a daughter in an abusive marriage want to save the marriage, and they don’t know who to believe. Do you believe the user who lied about this, and this, and this? Or do you think the person that’s the spouse, if they’re lying about what he might have been doing, to get back at him? Those kinds of traps that we fall into. Who is the liar there? What is the basis for thinking that the person being lied to is the liar? The term DARVO, where the person who is the offender actually gaslights the other person and accuses them of lying. Accusing them of doing all these things. Accusing them of setting them up for arrest, who knows what, all these things. So how do you determine who is the liar and who isn’t? You can see it. And we could look back and see it. But at the time where we were far away and we were on the phone and we felt like the marriage was more important, then it was hard to really see that he’s lying. It’s important to get help from [the best support groups](/emotional-abuse-support-groups-online/). **Anne:** Yeah. ## Understanding DARVO & Gaslighting **Anne:** Darvo is where they deny and then attack, and then reverse the victim and offender role. Which is exactly what happened in my situation. Now he feels like he’s the victim. And that everything I did to keep me safe from him, he says what’s going on is attacking him. Rather than realizing that those are the things I needed to do to protect myself from his ongoing abuse and lies. **Anne’s Sister:** So I have one more thing that I thought of to help protect from further victimization. So if they’re talking to clergy and getting bad advice, or if they’re talking to other people trying to say oh, it’s the fault of both of you. You need to go to couples counseling to help them understand that if they get advice that makes them feel terrible about themselves, they’re at fault. Then they should not be going to that person anymore. To help them see who they can trust. Because there are many people out there who they can’t trust. **Anne:** Tell her that she’s strong, brave, and doing a good job. Don’t undermine her by saying, well, maybe you could be doing this and maybe you could be doing that. Because that is not helpful in an abuse situation. Although we all have things we could improve on. Which my sister and mom also told me. ## Final Thoughts About Having A Daughter In An Abusive Relationship **Anne’s Sister:** Yes, that’s the biggest mistake I think I made. I was saying, how did you contribute to this or what could you do differently next time? Yeah, not understanding what abusive relationships look like. **Anne’s Mom:** Or maybe if you did this, or maybe if you did that. But what Safe Harbor told us is that if you had been less assertive, more submissive, it would have been worse. **Anne:** Yeah, yep, because he would get his way more. Yeah, but in this case, I was a terrible victim. Yes. I was the worst victim ever. I did not do what victims are supposed to do. And I know that many of you who are listening do not have supportive friends and family, and my heart goes out to you. That’s really, really difficult, and hopefully in your search for safety, you can find a safe network, people that can help you. There are people out there. Betrayal Trauma and Recovery is a great community to find safe people. So, I’m grateful to my mom and sister for coming on today. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims? - Leslie's Story](https://www.btr.org/what-do-emotional-abusers-look-for-in-their-victims/) **Published:** November 7, 2023 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** What do emotional abusers look for in their victims? The answer will surprise you. **Content:** Too often, we expect abuse victims to look a certain way: downtrodden, economically-dependent, and submissive. But that’s not true. Abuse is exploitative in nature. What do emotional abusers look for in their victims? Strength and ability, here’s why. If you relate to this episode and wonder if you’re experiencing emotional abuse, take this [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). Leslie, a successful doctor with multiple degrees, a victim of her ex-husband’s horrific abuse – shares her story. ![Emotional Abusers Look for Strenght in Their Victims](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/emotional-abusers-look-for-in-their-victims.webp "Emotional Abusers Look for in Their Victims")## Here’s What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims: Financial Resources Financially independent women may have difficulty accepting they are being abused. Because they are well-educated and respected in the workplace. The discrepancy with the way their abusive husband treats them at home may cause them to question reality. And create a disconnect in their ability to identify as a victim. Interestingly, financial abuse is a very sad reality for women who are breadwinners in their families. This form of financial abuse may occur when the abuser: - Refuses to work and/or contribute to family expenses. - Uses the victim’s earnings to fund extravagant expenses and/or abusive expenses (dating apps, pornography, drugs, alcohol, etc). - Takes the victim’s paychecks and diverts them to his account. - Demands a portion of the victim’s paycheck and refuses to account for where the money goes. - Attempts to sabotage the victim’s career. - Promises to earn an income, but either cannot hold down a job or doesn’t try to secure a job. - Forces the victim to be the breadwinner, then makes her feel guilty for doing so. - Places an expectation that all expenses are the responsibility of the victim. - Is constantly resetting the time horizon as to when the financially playing field will be leveled. - Refuses to contribute to daily household tasks while the victim works to support the family. ![What Do Emotional Abusers Look for to Exploit](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/what-do-emotional-abusers-look-for.webp "What Do Emotional Abusers Look for")## But I Thought I Was Smart” Many victims berate themselves for “allowing” abuse. They say things like: - “But I thought I was smart!” - “How could I be so stupid?!” - “I don’t look like an abuse victim.” - “Resources for abuse victims go to them – I should get myself out of this.” - “I was stupid enough to get into this, I need to get myself out of this.” Victims who have the capacity to earn a living can be extremely hard on themselves. **If you have experienced financial success, you are just as valid as any other victim of abuse – you deserve safety. You are entitled to every resource available to victims.** ![What Do Emotional Abusers Look for in Their Victims](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-Do-Emotional-Abusers-Look-For-In-Their-Victims-2.webp "What Do Emotional Abusers Look for in Their Victims")## Transcript: What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims? **Anne:** I have a member of our community on today’s episode. Leslie is a successful doctor caught in the throes of a horrendously abusive relationship. All of our listeners get that. One of the purposes of having her on the podcast today is to talk about how abuse does not discriminate, and how difficult it can be for even successful or well spoken women, and all of you are like that. Maybe we didn’t recognize it because we didn’t identify as victims, but also no one else would identify us as a victim. And so we want to dig into that today: What do emotional abusers look for in their victims? So welcome Leslie. **Leslie:** Thank you. Thank you for having me on. I hope my story can help others. There were many dark times that I never thought I would get to the other side, but here I am. Not only surviving, I am thriving. **Anne:** Like you, now that I’m thriving, the podcast sounds so much different than it did when I started. So if those of you who are listening. If it’s a little difficult or you’re like, don’t talk to me about the light at the end of the tunnel. I’m never going to feel good. My life is over, Leslie and I have been there. I just want to acknowledge that many of our listeners will be like, oh, I don’t want to hear that. That’s not possible for me. **Leslie:** I agree. I lost myself so much within that whole abusive relationship, it was hard to think that I could ever climb out. ![Things Abusers Look for in Their Victims](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/what-do-abusers-look-for-in-their-victims.webp "What Do Abusers Look for in Their Victims")## Recognizing Red Flags **Leslie:** Then I joined the [BTR.ORG Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/) and listened to the stories told. They’re all so similar, but different in their own ways. And then I saw women change things around. I greatly appreciate it. **Anne:** So Leslie, let’s start at the beginning of your story. Did you recognize your husband’s abusive behaviors at first? **Leslie:** He was my second husband. My first husband was my high school sweetheart. Unfortunately, we lost him. So I was at a very vulnerable time when I met my second husband. And I think he knew that. Maybe that’s part of what he was looking for in a victim. I think he used that to his advantage. He was a coworker with whom I worked a few years before that, just kind of an acquaintance. We connected on Facebook, and of course, he came in on his white horse and shining armor. And when I look back now, can I see every single red flag? Yes, I can. However, in the throes of it, I used every excuse why those red flags were not red flags. **Anne:** So at the time, were you also giving what you thought perhaps were valid reasons? Like maybe he had a traumatic childhood, or maybe this is new and we’re working on our communication skills. Only because you didn’t know it was abuse. My guess is, back then, had you been educated in abuse, you would have known what you were looking at. You just did not know what you didn’t know. **Leslie:** Exactly, 110%. ![The Surprising Truth About Trauma Bonds - They Don't Exist!](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/QleyqobSRCQ/maxresdefault.jpg) ## He Hadn’t Ever Been Married **Leslie:** He was six years younger than I was and hadn’t ever married. I had been married for 27 years, with three kids. So when we started talking, I kind of saw him as a person who was totally enmeshed in his family. My [enmeshed husband’s](https://www.btr.org/how-do-you-know-when-your-marriage-is-over/) life had been wallowed up by his family. I obviously, as a doctor, it’s my job to fix things. I see broken things and try to help. He hadn’t been in stable relationships, because he had never met anyone like me. That was one of the wonderful lines that he always used, you know, and how everybody always cheated on him. Emotional abusers look for women who they can groom for their victims? I just hooked on to all that hook line and sinker. So of course, it was my initiation to get married. He didn’t want to get married. I’m sure everybody has either watched or knows about *The Maid*. And I will tell you, it took me a long time to get through that series. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) **Anne:** *The Maid* is a series on Netflix. I highly recommend it. It is triggery, especially depending on where you are in your healing process. But there are many super important principles that they bring up, and they cover all the basics. **Leslie:** My friend recommended it to me. She said, “I probably shouldn’t have recommended it so soon.” I was still fresh, and it took me a long time to watch it, all those red flags that I didn’t see. I continued with the relationship. We were actually in therapy before we ever got married. My 18 year old daughter, there was one point where she was like, mom, what are you doing? ![Things Emotional Abusers Look for in Their Victims](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/what-do-emotional-abusers-look-for-in-their-victims-1.webp "What Do Emotional Abusers Look for in Their Victims")## Struggles With Pornography Addiction: What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims? **Leslie:** I just couldn’t see it. So it was just one of those things where it became, you know, years of being pushed down. And then I was diagnosed with breast cancer. And I did get him into therapy, probably nine months into our relationship. Because he had never been in therapy in his entire life. And he used those to check the boxes. It wasn’t until we got into a couples therapist that the relationship became even rockier, more abusive. He was more emotionally abusive, getting in your face. The one part I love in *The Maid*, the series, is when she says, but he’s never hit me. When I listened to that, that hit me to my core because I said the same thing. Well, he’s never hit me. It’s not abuse. He’s never hit me. What do emotional abusers look for in their victims? You know, I’m strong, independent, I run two hospitals, I’ve got six degrees, I’m not being abused. I was the one researching everything, I was the one always trying to find answers. The first time I caught him with exploiatative material was probably the first year we were together. He had probably over 50,000 pictures of naked women of all ages on his phone. Which ended up escalating into many other areas of, you know, finding him on dating websites and you name it. **Anne:** So when you say of various ages, here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we use the term child abuse material because that’s what it is. So did you also find that on his phone? ## Understanding Abuse & Addiction With Therapy **Leslie:** They were young looking. Yes. And then actually that was his M. O. was younger women. Maybe that’s what he was looking for in his victims? And he actually later in my journey with him, when we kind of identified a potential addiction. But honestly, now that I’m at where I’m in my life and journey, I think he just went along with that diagnosis. He went to an expensive inpatient treatment center for three weeks, and checked all his boxes. Because he knew that was the only way he could stay in, in the marriage. But yet, he continued to exhibit all the behaviors when he came out. He ended up getting fired from his job for harassment of a younger person, younger than 21. **Anne:** Let’s talk about the addiction recovery. When you went down that road for a minute. Did anyone in that space or at that clinic tell you that you are an abuse victim? Was abuse brought up? **Leslie:** I caught him in multiple online affairs. And we were at our last straw. We were seeing a couples counselor. The counselor goes, “I don’t understand what’s wrong with him.” He keeps getting caught. He knows what he’s got to lose. The counselor said it’s almost like he has an addiction or something. And I go, well, is there such a thing as addiction? And of course, then I started researching everything with my analytical brain. We started going down that path. We did start with CSAT counselors, which stands for Certified Addiction Therapist. He had one, I had one, he did end up doing one of the well known programs out in Los Angeles. Never said domestic violence, never said abuse. ## Leslie’s Realization & Empowerment **Anne:** Most of the time, you can’t have [infidelity without emotional abuse](https://www.btr.org/emotional-abuse-and-infidelity/ "infidelity without emotional abuse") and when people go down the addiction recovery route, they don’t hear the word abuse. **Leslie:** Nope, I agree. **Anne:** So, here at [BTR.ORG](https://www.btr.org), some people don’t agree with us, in fact many people don’t agree with us. You might not agree with us. Is exploitative material addictive? Sure, I prefer to define it as abusive behavior rather than an addiction. **Leslie:** Yes **Anne:** Because I think that gets to the heart of the matter. The whole addiction recovery complex does not view this man as an abuser. It concerns me greatly, because I do not think they’re addressing the correct thing. **Leslie:** I 100 percent agree with that. The two CSAT counselors that we were working with, his and mine, were two different ones. Mine actually had been married to an abuser, and she divorced hers. The other one that my ex had seen, she had stayed with hers. It’s actually interesting to see the dynamic of what they brought to each of the therapy sessions. **Anne:** Did she ever say, um, well, he’s checking boxes. That’s also called grooming. Did she ever bring that up? **Leslie:** She didn’t, she said, the whole trauma bonding thing. **Anne:** Can we talk about [trauma bonding examples](https://www.btr.org/therapist-for-trauma-bonding/) for a minute, Leslie? **Leslie:** Sure. **Anne:** I’m not sure if you’ve heard our episode about this. I made up a different term for it. Because I don’t like the word trauma bond, because it feels like you actually maybe have a bond. If trauma bond is useful to you, and it’s helped move you forward and get to safety, continue using it. I didn’t like it because it seemed like a lot of women, feel stuck, right? ## What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims? The Manufactured Relational Tether **Anne:** They’re like, but I’m bonded to this person through this trauma. And so the term I invented, and we have a video on this that is amazing. So I’ll put that in this episode. So if you go to our website and find this episode, the video will be in there. I call it the manufactured relational tether. Actually, I think I’ve seen that. The reason I call it is because you think you’re bonded to them, but they are not bonded to you. And they have manufactured this tether to keep you stuck. And that video clearly shows it. Do you remember that video? This is one of the ways emotional abusers keep their victims stuck. **Leslie:** Yes, I do. **Anne:** What did you think of it? **Leslie:** I thought it was awesome, because I saw so many things. Like people who saw like our relationship from the start to the end. If they know now that we’ve divorced, they are just shocked. They’re like, Oh Mike, seemed like such an amazing person. He brought you flowers every day. I hate flowers now. Just an FYI to me, that is a huge trigger. Because when he would be trying to hook up with someone and get caught, guess what he did. Brought me flowers or he was abusive that night. That’s what he did the next day, brought me flowers. So flowers to me are a huge trigger. But those are all the outside things they manufacture to everybody else. So nobody will believe your story. Nobody will believe, because they just see this “awesome person.” They don’t see what goes on behind closed doors. They don’t see the reactions. ## The Turning Point: Breast Cancer **Leslie:** The reason I brought up my breast cancer story was that when I first started to say, okay, I think this is not going to work. But then I found out I had breast cancer. I’ve got three grown children who don’t have their own father still alive. And I was like, and now I’m going to leave them motherless. I cannot fight him and fight for my life. So I decided that all would go on the back burner while I fought for my life. I feel like that gave him a little more leeway to continue that whole, keeping me down more and more. And it wasn’t until after I’d been through the chemo, been through the double mastectomy. And had been through months and months of CSAT counseling, we had done a therapeutic separation. Once I got out of the situation, I woke up one morning and looked in the mirror. And I just didn’t recognize the person looking back at me anymore. I was like, wow, you would never in a million years allow this ever, ever in your life. How are you allowing this now? And that was when I started to take my power back. That’s when I started the change of not necessarily working toward our reconciliation. But working more on focusing on myself and what I needed. And if that happened, then it happened. And if it didn’t, I was okay with that. **Anne:** Let’s talk about the therapy disclosure. I think that is insane when you’re looking at abuse, right? In an ideal world, which never happens. ## What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims? Leslie’s Academic and Professional Achievements **Anne:** It does happen here at BTR.ORG. That’s why I love [BTR.ORG](https://www.btr.org). It’s an amazing oasis of truth. But what should happen is the second you go in there, and it’s hard. Because it took you forever to figure out they were an abuser. So, why is a therapist smarter than you? They’re not, right? You, you have six degrees. Some emotional abusers look for very accomplished women to be their victims. By the way, can you just list your degrees real quick? **Leslie:** So I have a bachelor’s in nursing. I have a master’s in nursing with family practice, and a master’s in nursing and neonatal. I have a doctorate, and I just went back for a neonatal fellowship that I just finished last year. **Anne:** And you’re a medical doctor? **Leslie:** Yep. **Anne:** Okay. So you have your MD as well. **Leslie:** Yes. **Anne:** All right. And you run two hospitals. Okay, so Leslie is no dummy, people. So if you were like, why didn’t I see it? Why didn’t I know what was going on? And then Leslie is so smart that she starts researching things. And in this case, her research actually kept her in the abuse longer. Accidentally, right? It’s not your fault. But because it wasn’t abuse out of the gate, it’s like addiction, maybe childhood trauma, it’s some other things. You go in and you’re given this, like, let’s do a therapeutic disclosure, or other things that a CSAT would tell you. If you went to church or when you went to church, how did he present in the, in a religious setting? A Catholic father raised me and a Baptist mother. So they never agreed on religion. ## The Church & Misogyny **Leslie:** So I found my religion and spirituality later in life. It was always funny to me that he would say how Catholic he was. He went to a Catholic high school. His family went to church every Sunday, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. All the lies, all the abuse, the stealing, things that he would do that were immoral. They just never added up to what a good Christian would do. **Anne:** So my guess is that even though you didn’t go for help with the clergy route, many women do. Many of our listeners have tried to get help from clergy, their pastor, bishop or rabbi. They have gone to get help, and they are more abused in the process because the clergy does not know what they’re looking at. And they might be abusive themselves. They might be steeped in misogyny. And also, they may like him. I think that’s probably the biggest problem, is they know the guy and think he’s a great guy. And so they are like, what are you talking about? Because many clergy respond well when they don’t know the man. Like if they listen, they’re like, wow, that sounds abusive. How can we help? But if they know him, they believe him over you. So it’s good that you didn’t try to get help from clergy. Because my guess is that would have been traumatic. But let’s focus then on the trauma that came from therapy. From basically prolonging the abuse. When do you start realizing that being a supportive, helpful spouse is working against you? **Leslie:** It was when I realized I had totally lost myself. I was not the person I was. ## The Breaking Point **Leslie:** I wouldn’t engage in activities. I wouldn’t go out with my friends anymore. There were so many things that gave me joy that I would not do anymore. Just because I just existed. I was the major breadwinner. He did not work. He couldn’t hold down a job. And my breaking point for the first time we separated was that we were actually in the car dealership getting him a new car. Because his lease was up. And I looked over and he was actually on Tinder making a hookup. While we were in the car dealership, buying him a new car. He moved out, and that was a very explosive time. We tried to navigate through that, with our couples counselor. **Anne:** Sorry, it’s interesting. The words you’re using, you’re using the word we. So he’s trying to like reassert control here, which is emotional abuse, which is why things are escalating. And we as a couple are not working on anything. But because your perspective is we, even now, talking about it. It’s really interesting that victims still may be looking back and thinking, well, we were trying. When that was never happening in the first place, **Leslie:** it was, it was only me. You’re 100% right. **Anne:** Yeah. Because you’re in the relationship. You have a relationship, but they don’t have a relationship with you. ## The Illusion Of Partnership: What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims? **Leslie:** That has been one of my biggest challenges. Because being successful, being a helper, a doer, I did a lot of medical relief work pre-COVID. And he ended up piggybacking or riding my coattails on many of my trips. I would go on these trips, and maybe five photos the whole time. I was there because I’m there to work, I’m there to help. I’m there doing medical relief work. He was looking for a victim who could make him look good. He had thousands of photos all over social media about what a wonderful thing he was doing, and him and him and him. And I remember early on in our relationship. saying to him, what are your dreams? What are your aspirations? What are your goals? And I accomplished two more degrees. When I was with him. I always would say, you know, don’t you have a dream? Don’t you have an aspiration? What do you want to do? I said, you can’t always ride on my coattails. I have my dreams, my aspirations of what I want to do with my life. You, you should have your own, and then we should have together goals. That was a really hard thing for me to wrap my brain around. That somebody would not have goals or not have the same drive and ambition that I had. So looking back and seeing how much he groomed and took from me. My brother said this a few months ago. I know he didn’t mean to say it. I’ve learned to not take things personally when people say things. People sometimes just don’t know what to say. They don’t mean to say things the way they come out, but they were friends, and I think they’re loosely still friendly. ## Family Dynamics & Realizations **Leslie:** We don’t talk about it. And they used to go snowmobiling together. My brother went on a yearly trip, and all the guys, I guess, asked where my ex was. He said, “Well, he’s not a kept man anymore.” He said, “My sister got smart to his ways, and he’s not a kept man anymore.” Which kind of stunned me a bit, because I was like, That is exactly what he was. He was looking for someone to take advantage of. He had his cake, and he could eat it too. Who wouldn’t want that? He had the nice house on the lake, and all the toys. He got to travel the world. And he still got to screw around on the side. So, you know, who wouldn’t want a life like that? **Anne:** So, what he wasn’t looking for, which is so painful to recognize in hindsight, was a true partnership. **Leslie:** Correct. **Anne:** Emotional abusers look for someone they can exploiat. All his behaviors were intent on grooming you. To use you for finances, travel and also prestige. Like he’s the husband of this great, amazing, successful woman, but he didn’t want to be your partner. **Leslie:** 100%, and that was a really hard pill for me to swallow when I finally realized that this was not a partnership whatsoever. **Anne:** And when you started going to therapy, like right at the beginning, before you were even married. Did the therapist tip you off to this? **Leslie:** I think she did. And then when we had been married for a year. We moved to the West side of Michigan, away from his family. Because honestly, if we hadn’t, we probably wouldn’t have stayed married as long as we did. ## Therapist’s Insight & Warnings **Leslie:** When we moved to the West Side, I started seeing a new therapist, and she is amazing. She called me out on it almost immediately. She’s like, you realize he’s a narcissist, that he’s using you, that this is abuse. I would always have excuses, and she was very blunt, and she’d be like, no, I’m telling you. That is what abusers look for in their victims, someone to use. And then when I stopped seeing her, because we went down the whole addiction road. So then I got my own CSAT. When I finally got out of that. I ended up going back to my original one, and I had a final session with my CSAT. She said, why are you stopping seeing me? And I don’t mind, because I just wonder. And I said, because the reason I’m seeing you no longer exists. I said, I don’t need to see you anymore, because this isn’t a CSAT matter. **Anne:** Yeah, the interesting thing was it was never a CSAT matter. **Leslie:** No, you’re right. **Anne:** And the unfortunate thing is the CSAT didn’t tell you that, right? Because they do not see it as abuse. And I think they are clinically negligent. **Leslie:** Although I will say I have the utmost respect. We were recommended to a counselor, who is a CSAT counselor who only sees married couples, for couple therapy. So he would have his, I’d have mine. And then we were going to see this couple one. We went to him the first time. And at the end of it, he looked at us and went, “I don’t think I can help you guys.” **Leslie:** And I was so blown away. ## What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims? The Role of A Couples Therapy **Leslie:** I go, what do you mean? I said, he just spent all this money on this program. You know, he’s “checking the boxes,” dah, dah, dah. He goes, “No, he’s not.” He goes, “I see all the things he’s not doing. And you want me to tell you to trust him when he’s not trustworthy? I can’t do that. And I will not take your money.” I have the utmost respect for him, because the fact that he saw, I mean, he could have just kept taking our money and kept saying, Oh yeah, I can fix you guys. This is fine. He did say, I want to have one individual session with each of you, and then I’ll make my final decision. And even in my first session with him, he was like, what are you doing? He’s like, really? You know, it’s funny. Lake Michigan is known for being very turbulent, and he goes, you know, they put those red flags out in the middle of the lake when they tell you not to go swimming. You saw all those red flags, and you still went swimming. **Anne:** Well, it’s because you didn’t know how to process the red flag. So as you saw the red flag. To you, it said, okay, he’s got childhood trauma. He needs therapy. **Leslie:** Exactly. **Anne:** It didn’t say red flag abuser. You saw inappropriate stuff on his phone, red flag, maybe he’s an addict. It didn’t say red flag abuser, **Leslie:** Right. **Anne:** That’s the other issue, is that women might see the red flags fine. But they don’t know how to process it or define it. ## The Dangers Of Couple Therapy In Abuse Situations **Anne:** They’re trying to be good, nice people. We know people aren’t perfect. And know that we can’t expect people to be perfect. I don’t think we’re missing the red flags. We just think we’re processing them incorrectly, and most addiction or regular therapy would say work on communication, connect with them. You know, there’s so much misinformation in an abuse scenario, which at [BTR.ORG](https://www.btr.org) we see exploitative material use as abusive, right? So in an abusive scenario, they should never be doing couple therapy ever, ever, ever. So in my opinion, CSATs who do couple therapy are clinically negligent. **Leslie:** I agree. **Anne:** Because you’ve got an abuser, and you should not be doing couple therapy with an abuser. So it’s like an oxymoron, but they don’t see it that way because they don’t see it as abuse. So let’s actually focus on that for just a minute. Your original therapist that told you. Hey, this is abuse. And then you went to a CSAT. Talk about what happened. How did he use that manufactured relational tether at that point? Maybe you went home and said, hey, she said you were abusive or something. Or maybe you didn’t, but how did he reel you back in? To go down the addiction recovery route? Talk about your thought process or how he manipulated you after that. **Leslie:** You probably know the whole Gottman thing about marital therapy. So our initial therapist would use Gottman stuff with us. **Anne:** When we talk about Gottman, this is classic couple therapy stuff that does not account for abuse. ## Reactive Abuse Misconception **Leslie:** Exactly, exactly he would use the tools that we would get in therapy as weapons against me. And he would say, “But this is what the counselor said, and you’re not doing this, and you’re not doing that. I’m trying to take a break.” But it would always be the get in your face, that whole reactive abuse. **Anne:** So we also don’t use the word reactive abuse here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. The reason I want to pause there is that people have said this, they say something. And then you react, maybe you yell or I don’t know, whatever, right? **Leslie:** Uncharacteristic, yes. **Anne:** And at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we just see that as trying to defend yourself. **Leslie:** Right. **Anne:** That’s it. You’re not abusing them reactively or anything like that. You are trying to defend yourself, and that’s it. I do not want victims labeled as also abusers. In trying to defend themselves from abuse, that’s what the abuser wants. What do emotional abusers want to see it as like, well, we both have problems and we’re both unhealthy. When it needs to be viewed as you’ve got an abuser. And then you have a victim trying to survive. **Leslie:** And that’s exactly what I was trying to do. And he would use all those therapy things as weapons back against me. I thought I was going crazy so many times. You feel like you are spinning in circles, you’re hopeless, you get to a point where you just don’t know where to turn. You don’t know what to do anymore. ## What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims? Escaping The Fog Of Manipulation **Anne:** So my guess is he’s escalating at this point because he’s losing control. When he’s in treatment, he knows that you have the time and space to clear out the fog. They can’t manipulate you when they’re not in constant contact with you, right? So my guess is that he’s freaking out at this point. He’s not into the treatment at all, but he’s trying to act like he is to groom you, but realizing you have space. So at this point where you have space. You’re finally able to get your wits about you. Because so many women are trying to sort it out, while still being manipulated and lied to daily. And they’re still deep in the fog. So talk about how that space helped you see clearly. **Leslie:** The space was key. It probably took me a good six weeks before I finally started to see things as they were. And the reactions he would have when we would have interactions. We had been separated for three months, and we weren’t doing any couple of counseling. He ended up getting fired from work for inappropriateness. But he did get his job back, but right then is when he was going to go away for treatment. The day after he left for treatment, I came home that night. The following night, all three of my kids were at my house. And my kids are grown, they’re adults. And I thought, okay, what is going on? This was not a planned family thing. My daughter lives three hours away. Like, why is she here? ## Family Intervention & Legal Steps **Leslie:** So when I walked in, I said, what is going on? And apparently one of my children found out that he was fired for inappropriate things. And found out he had been stalking younger women. I had already spoke with an attorney before, but it was the following day that I ended up going through and filing while he was away at treatment. **Anne:** One of the things that I recommend victims don’t do, which is crazy hard to do. I find that all of us needed to do this. I wish there was some way to circumvent it, but I’m not sure if there is. When you find out about the abuse or some behaviors, our natural reaction is to tell the abuser this, right? **Leslie:** Right. **Anne:** To say, “Hey, I just found out I have an STD. What happened?” Or, “Hey, I just found pornography on your phone.” I wish that emotional abuse victims would instead of talking to the abuser and trying to help him see the situation. That they would take steps back and get to safety. Because every time we confront the abuser or try to like, help him understand the situation, we just get more abused. Similarly, you are more abused through all the therapy because he started weaponizing all the therapy language. Once this happened and you contacted a lawyer, did you try to talk to him about what had happened or anything after that? And did you have that experience where in trying to say, hey, look, I’m going to get divorced? Did that set you up for more abuse? **Leslie:** It did in a certain aspect, but we were not living together at the time. So I still could keep that. ## Legal Battles & Postnuptial Agreements **Leslie:** Before he left for treatment, I had enough wits about me that I contacted an attorney prior and had a postnuptial agreement drawn up. I made him sign that if he wanted to [stay married or “save the marriage”](https://www.btr.org/narcissistic-husband/). That he needed to sign it. He did sign it. And that was my only saving grace, because it basically said, “You leave with what you came with. I leave with what I came with. You’re not entitled to any spousal support X, Y, and Z.” And that was the only thing I can say that I could have my wits about me, so that I could walk away and not get totally. For lack of better words, screwed over in the end. **Anne:** This is what you have to do if you have a [narcissistic husband](https://www.btr.org/narcissistic-husband/ "narcissitic husband"). So the post nup goes well, you win by default, which is awesome. He doesn’t get an attorney, and that is amazing. That doesn’t always happen when[ fighting a narcissist for custody. S](https://www.btr.org/fighting-a-narcissist-for-custody/ "ighting a narcissist for custody. S")ometimes they use legal abuse and drag somebody through legal things for years. So that was a miracle. Good, I’m so happy that happened for you. But you have had to actually take him to court. **Leslie:** He has neglected to take me off his house, so I’m still financially liable for the mortgage on his house. He is dragging that out. I have done everything in the post nup that I was supposed to do. Everything was taken out of his name, which was supposed to be. I have sold the house we had together. So his name’s off that. I have my own new house. He owes me approximately 30ish thousand dollars for things he took out of my accounts. He just kept dragging it out. ## What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims? Preparing for Legal Warfare **Leslie:** He wouldn’t answer emails for weeks at a time. I didn’t want to incur any more legal costs. I kept trying to think, okay, this is going to resolve. He’s going to get his act together, dah, dah, dah. It didn’t happen. About a month ago, I finally contacted my attorney back. I said, okay, he still doesn’t have my name off the house, and he still owes me this money. What are we going to do? **Leslie:** And he’s like, okay, are you ready to play by my rules? I said, I said, yes. He goes, because if we play by my rules, he’s not going to like it. And I go, I’m just done dealing with him. So we go back to court on June 6th. They will actually hold him in contempt of court times two, one for non-payment of what should have been paid. Which he hasn’t paid for a year and a half. And the second is, is they’re going to make him list his house for sale. And he will only have 15 days to get it listed. This house was always a bane of our existence, because it was always his. He would never sell it. So the fact that they’re going to try to make him sell is a little disconcerting on my part. Just because I know this will put him over the edge. But when you don’t do what you’re supposed to do in the beginning, and you act like an idiot, then this is the consequences. **Anne:** Yeah. Because you don’t share kids with him. ## The Importance Of Boundaries **Anne:** Have you blocked him on your phone? **Leslie:** He’s blocked on my phone, he’s blocked on social media. I’ve blocked all family, any friends that were mutual friends that weren’t my friends prior to us getting together. They have all been taken off all my social media. **Anne:** So you’re prepared. **Leslie:** Yes. **Anne:** Yeah. It’s going to be all out war for him, and he’s going to want to drag it out forever. And one of the things to think about is telling your attorney to minimize legal costs as much as possible. Because he’s going to want to drag this out for years. **Leslie:** And the nice thing is in the postnuptial agreement, it specifically states that if we have to go back to court for one of us not complying with the postnuptial, that person must pay all legal court costs for both parties. **Anne:** That is awesome. And they’ll have to take that out? **Leslie:** Yes. **Anne:** Of the house he sells. **Leslie:** Yes, yes. **Anne:** So you’ll have the money. Ah, that’s great. Well, I hope it goes well, because sometimes, not sometimes, all the time, most of the time, these court things go really haywire. So you think, Oh, I’m all prepared and everything looks good. And then it hits and it does not go the way you want. I hope that that happens for you. It seems like you’re well prepared. ## Warning For Listeners About Abusers In Court **Anne:** But for our listeners out there, I want to give everybody a nice healthy, sad, horrific warning. That no matter how well prepared you are, they are so skilled at manipulation, lies, and throw all kinds of crazy things your way. And even when you think, okay, I know what the worst case scenario is. And I’m okay with the worst case scenario. It can even be worse than that. Emotional abusers are tricky in court to their victims, and the courts don’t understand it. So I hope things go well, and it sounds like they will, but I just want to do a little warning for my listeners. **Leslie:** I agree with that, because I feel that it’s a toss up either way. The judge can go either way on it. You know, you think you’ve crossed all your T’s and dotted your I’s, but you know, when push comes to shove and he gives his sob story or whatever he decides to do, who knows what’s going to happen. Everybody says, you should just write right off that money, you’re never going to see it. Just let it go, move on. And I’m like, no, he’s taken enough of my life from me. Like, why would I give him the satisfaction of giving him another 30, 000? I don’t have to deal with it. My attorney is dealing with it. It’s kind of more principle to me that no, you will not continue to abuse and take and not have consequences. **Anne:** Especially because you share that house. Getting your name off that house is super important. So I have a theory that successful women have a harder time getting out of abuse. ## What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims? The Power of Sharing Your Story **Anne:** And it’s because people don’t perceive them as a victim, so it’s harder to get help. What do you think about that? **Leslie:** I think it’s pretty true. I’ve become much more outspoken for survivors of abuse. And it actually was my own medical doctor when I was sitting there sobbing to her, telling my story to her. She was just so taken aback. She said, “You could still do good work. I know you want to do your medical relief work again.” And she goes, “But you know, the biggest work you could do is get your story out there.” She said, “Because there are so many people who don’t have the resources you had. Or don’t know where to turn or think just because they’re not successful. This is why it happened to them.” No, it happens to anyone, anyone. Emotional abusers look for victims who they can exploit. It can happen to anyone. And it’s so devastating when you are in the thick of it. It is so hard. And I say this all the time, stay your course. You will get there today. It might not seem like it tomorrow. It might not seem like it. And I will tell you, even probably six months ago, I was not the person I am today. And I would not have been as positive even six months ago, as I am today, just by staying my course and not deviating from my own personal growth and what I needed to do for me. I stopped focusing on us and the marriage and started focusing on me. **Anne:** In some ways, your resources worked against you because you could pay for couple therapy, you can pay for CSATs, you can go that direction. ## The Right Resources Matter & Children As The Abuser’s Leverage **Anne:** When people say there are lots of resources available, it’s important for me to point out the right resources matter. Leslie: Right, exactly. **Anne:** You can waste so much money on addiction recovery. You can waste so much time doing that. Getting the abuse resources is the most important thing, and sticking with that course. The other thing I wanna say is that you’re doing so well right now. And I’m so happy for you, is that you do not share children with this man. **Leslie:** Yes. **Anne:** And so you can get completely away, right? Even if his court case doesn’t go great and you lose $30, 000. That’s a bummer, but his name will get off the house. Many listeners to this podcast, myself included, are forced by the court system to continue to interact with our abuser. Who is also psychologically and emotionally abusing our children. And this is for years and years. What happened at the end of the Netflix show *The Maid*, exactly. The end was like, oh, finally she could get out. And I think society wants us to think that I think society is like, if you keep putting one foot in front of the other, you will get out eventually. And the harsh. awful terror is that the court system is actually not helpful. We are still forced to interact because we share kids. *The* *Maid* could have ended completely differently, where he didn’t let her go, right? And I would say that’s the majority of what women are experiencing. So that had a happy ending, but that happy ending is rare. ## The Harsh Reality Of Court Systems **Anne:** So for those who don’t share children, this could be your story. **Leslie:** Right. **Anne:** And I want to provide hope for you that you can move on. It is there. It is waiting for you. And you can have a complete and total separation from those injuries. And then for those who share children, and you’re facing that every day. For me, even up until probably a year ago, stories like yours, I was happy for you. But so triggered and mad for me. **Leslie:** Yeah. **Anne:** But like, nobody would protect me. Then in fact, the court system supposed to protect victims was actually not the domestic violence shelter and everything. They’re like, get out, get out and get out, but you can’t get out. You’re stuck. And so I was always like continually mad. I have now used a type of strategic communication to be in a better place that isn’t dependent on court. Using this type of strategic communication, I was able to deliver myself and my kids completely. So they don’t go with him hardly at all anymore. You can find those strategies in [The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). **Leslie:** And I do feel for the people who have children, and I will say, I am so grateful that I did not have children with him. I can so see where that is such a struggle. But I believe there are ways of communication and learning how to respect yourself enough to keep your own boundaries with them. And I think that was my biggest thing. I always lacked boundaries in many areas, so the biggest thing was teaching myself boundaries. ## Strategies for dealing with Emotional Abusers **Leslie:** Boundaries with my own kids. Boundaries with, strangers, with people. The biggest takeaway is learning how to deal with that part of it. **Anne:** It’s a skill we all need to learn. This is not a, like, high school class they offer, so it’s important. What do emotional abusers look for in their victims? We talked a little bit about targeting, being used, grooming, the manufactured relational tether. You learned a lot through this about how you were never in a relationship. But that you were targeted. If you could go back in time. And talk to yourself before meeting him, and teach you some of the things you never wanted to learn, that you never knew you needed to know. What would you tell yourself? **Leslie:** I would tell myself to one, respect myself enough to listen to my inner self and my inner gut feelings. I think that is the biggest thing emotional abusers target is getting you to start doubting yourself. I always prided myself on having a wonderful, amazing ability to have that inner gut feeling as many medical professionals do. That’s how we guide our practice a lot of the time, but that was used against me, because once he stopped my ability to trust my own gut. That is where I feel he was able to worm himself in and keep me off balance. I would say to myself trust your gut. Actions speak louder than words. I remember saying your actions are not matching your words early in our relationship. And if I had just kept true to myself in that statement, his actions showed me exactly who he was, not the words. I think that would have been a totally different outcome. ## The Trap Of Trying To Resolve With Abusers **Anne:** It’s interesting, so when we recognize that his actions are inconsistent with his words. Because we perceive them as a partner. The first thing we want to do is talk to them about our feelings. That is where they keep us trapped. They would like us to think it’s a partnership, because in a partnership, that’s what you would do. You would try to resolve it, to talk to them about our observations. So, as we say, “Hey, I noticed your actions don’t sync up with your words”. Then they can talk more and groom more. Like, okay, well she noticed that. So now I’m going to try this other tactic, or now I’m going to lie better. Unfortunately, with an abuser, all they hear is, I need to deceive better, manipulate better, and groom better. You can’t determine that unless you have those conversations. So giving grace to all the victims who tried to talk to their abuser, only to be abused more. If you’re in that boat now, and you’re listening to this. Let’s pretend that on this podcast you have heard something and you’re like, this is how he is. An aha light bulb has gone off in your head. I would encourage you, do not go to your abuser and tell him about it. Do not go to him and say, “Oh, you have to listen to this podcast.” Before you decide to do that, please enroll in [The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop.](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) At least learn how to communicate strategically with them before you make a decision about that. ## The Importance Of Using Strategy **Anne:** If you enroll in Living Free and learn the strategies, and then you decide, you know what, I’m still going to talk to him. Then at least you’ll be making a decision, having all the information you need to make that decision. **Leslie:** I can’t tell you how many times I would confront him immediately on something. And afterwards, I would say to myself. Why didn’t you just stay quiet? Why didn’t you just continue to gather your “evidence” to realize what was going on? But as soon as I found something or something would happen, it would immediately come out of my mouth. That is the biggest thing. What you just said. Don’t confront them like they’re using all your words against you, and that is the hardest thing to do. **Anne:** For that reason, BTR group sessions are useful, because you need to share that it’s inside you, and it will come out. [BTR.ORG Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/) are the perfect place, or [Individual Sessions with our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coaches](https://www.btr.org/individual/) are the perfect place. Emotional abusers look for wonderful women who they can use. **Leslie:** And I so appreciate everything Betrayal Trauma Recovery does to help women in these situations, because it seems so hopeless. I just want to encourage everyone that one day there is a light. There is. Just keep looking for it. **Anne:** Thank you so much, Leslie. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Is My Husband Gay? Ways To Know For Sure](https://www.btr.org/is-my-husband-gay/) **Published:** May 9, 2023 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** If your husband has betrayed you with men, you may wonder, "Is my husband gay?" This is for you. **Content:** If you’re married, have you just discovered that your husband watches gay pornography or is hooks up with men? Have you wondered, “Is my husband gay?” This kind of betrayal cuts deep, and it makes sense that you feel angry, confused, and sad. Not because you’re mean or hateful, but because he lied to you and broke your trust. You’re not alone. Betrayal can hurt a lot, but there are ways to get help and feel better. Here are three signs that might show if your husband could be gay, along with some ideas on how to move forward. ## 1. You Find Gay Pornography or Evidence of Same-Sex Relationships Have you come across gay pornography on your husband’s phone, device, or search history? Discovering this can feel like a devastating blow, particularly if it’s not the first time. If he’s previously assured you that he isn’t gay or promised to stop, the betrayal can be even more painful. This can feel especially conflicting if he identifies as religious and claims not to support homosexuality. Similarly, if he’s had same-sex relationships in his past—or you’ve recently uncovered evidence that he’s involved with other men now—this might confirm worrying suspicions. It’s important to remember that these discoveries aren’t your fault. He’s been lying to you and your community and maybe even your church, and that has nothing to do with you. His lying and hiding the truth likely amounts to emotional and psychological abuse, even if people try [marriage infidelity counseling](/marriage-infidelity-counseling/). Before you answer whether he’s gay, consider answering this important question: **Is he emotionally abusive?** Take this [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/) to see if he’s using any of the 19 types of emotional abuse to keep you in the dark or make you feel like this is your fault. ## 2. He’s Spending Time in Gay Bars or Similar Spaces If your husband secretly frequents gay bars or visits establishments connected to same-sex encounters, and has been purposefully trying to obstruct you from discovering this double life, it’s a [sign that he’s emotionally abusive,](/warning-signs-of-an-abusive-therapist/) regardless of his sexual orientation. To learn more about this type of abuse, listen to the [FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast](/podcast/). ![When Your Husband Apologizes - How To Tell If He Means It](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/joi92r4w93k/maxresdefault.jpg) ## 3. Your Intuition Tells You Something Is Wrong Sometimes, even if you don’t have proof—like suspicious messages or clear signs—your feelings might tell you something isn’t right. You know what? Those feelings happen for a reason. Your brain can notice little clues even before you realize it. If you’re feeling confused, trust yourself. You might not be able to explain it immediately, but honoring your intuition can guide you toward the truth. Regardless of what your husband is saying or promising you now, if you feel like something is off, you need support from women who understand. Attend a [betrayal trauma support group](/group/). ### But What If He’s Still Intimate With Me? One question many women in this situation ask is, “If he’s having sex with men, why does he still want to be with me—physically and emotionally?” To learn more about why some men see marriage as an opportunity to exploit a woman, rather than a loving relationship, enroll in T[he Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop](/clarity/) to determine what your husband’s true character is. The Living Free Workshop will help you determine if your husband is gay and then know what steps to take next to make sure you’re emotionally, psychologically, and sexually safe. ## What You Can Do Next If this sounds like something you’re going through, it’s time to focus on finding peace and feeling better. Whether your husband is gay or making other bad choices, what matters most is your feelings and mental health. Feeling isolated is common, but help is available. Betrayal Trauma Recovery (BTR.ORG) offers daily group sessions in every time zone, so no matter where you are, you’ll be surrounded by women who understand. This is a safe space where you can share your thoughts—or just listen until you feel ready. Take the first step toward healing and connect with the amazing women at [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/) TODAY. Discovering my husband betrayed me with men, when I thought he was straight, was the most painful experience of my life. Savannah shares her story of resilience and acceptance in the aftermath of her husband coming out after fourteen years of intimate betrayal. If this is happening to you, professional betrayal trauma specialists at Betrayal Trauma Recovery can help you process your feelings and find peace. ## My Husband Betrayed Me With Men – The Emotions Are Overwhelming In fact many women in our community face intense and overwhelming emotions in the face of learning that their husband has betrayed them with men. They grapple with blame from clergy, family, and friends, while trying to stay in the reality that sexual orientation or preference has literally nothing to do with them. Also, below is a list of common emotions and thoughts that women facing this situation experience: - Intense rejection - Fear that they “turned” their husband gay - Shame - Embarrassment - Grief over the thought that the relationship was never authentic - Anger - Intense frustration over the time wasted - Sorrow for children they share with their partner - Self-blame for not “seeing it sooner” - Self-loathing as they perceive themselves as not good enough, or not attractive enough to “keep their husband straight” - Intense anxiety that the same situation will play out again in future ## Am I Horrible For Feeling This Way? When your husband betrays you with men, you may grapple with the worry that you are homophobic for feeling complex emotions, including anger, disgust, rejection, or grief. Because It’s important to give yourself space to feel the spectrum of emotions that all betrayal victims experience. At BTR, we understand the devastation, shame, and heartbreak that victims experience. Please don’t suffer alone. ## Transcript: Is My Husband Gay? **Anne:** I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’ll call her Savannah. She was raped at 17 years of age, and a pregnancy resulted from that. She chose to keep her child. And 23 years later, after 17 years of marriage, she found out her husband betrayed her with men. And for most of their marriage he was a sex addict. To heal from these traumas, she started summiting mountains, running ultra marathons, regular marathons, standup paddling, any kind of active outdoor activity. She did it. I also love being out in nature, so it’s great to talk to someone with similar interests. Let’s start with your story. How did you feel when you found out about your husband? **Savannah:** Not only is he a sex addict, but he’s also addicted to drugs and alcohol and was leading a double life. And I didn’t know any of it. I found out on Thanksgiving Eve. Once I realized his behaviors were not something I’m accustomed to seeing, he literally tripped out on drugs when he came home that evening. I started going through his phone, his websites, and everything on technology. Through that, I started realizing. oh my gosh. We have a major problem here. This is not just drug related, there are other addictions involved. It was devastating. It was devastating to go through and scroll through your husband’s phone, which I’m sure many of you have had to do, and finding all this pornography. My discovery happened over five days in front of my eyes. ## Understanding Her Husband’s Identity **Anne:** When you found out that your husband had betrayed you with men? Are you thinking, is my husband gay? [My husband must hate me](/my-husband-hates-me/). Like, what were your thoughts? Were you [looking for podcasts or trying to find help](/how-do-you-listen-to-a-podcast/)? **Savannah:** In my situation, my husband, I found out, is gay. It does not mean they’re gay if that’s happening with other women’s husbands. For my husband, he identified as gay. He moved out. We are now divorced. And he does not even live near me right now. He is now leading and living a gay lifestyle. For me, I never thought I’m not enough. In some cases, maybe I’m too much. You know? Maybe I’m just too much. Just from women who have these conversations about this exact topic, my spouse is leading a same sex lifestyle. And I even had that thought, “did you turn them gay?” No, I didn’t turn my husband gay. Women ask, Why are they doing that? Why are they turning to men? Many women have these thoughts, this isn’t even about you. None of this is about you. This is about them not being truthful or honest where they’re at. And unfortunately, getting projected onto you. Because again, it doesn’t always mean they’re gay. It could mean that for whatever reason they’re turning to men as a way of acting out. For him, he just wasn’t living an authentic life. For myself, it was 14 years worth. So, for who I am as a woman, I’m a mom of three boys. It would be very difficult for me to be in a relationship when he’s identifying himself as wanting to be with a man. I’m not a man. ## Deciding to Leave **Savannah:** Once all this surfaced, I realized our intimacy wasn’t what I needed, what I wanted, and what I deserved as a woman. So, I couldn’t live in a relationship like that anymore, because I wasn’t living in an authentic life because he wasn’t living in an authentic life. My husband betrayed me with men. My choice was to leave. I do know women who have chosen to stay with their spouses, because even though they identify as gay, they have chosen. No judgment. Look, if that’s what works for them, who am I to judge? **Anne:** Yeah, I think that’s important to trust that a woman will make the best decision for her, depending on her circumstances. **Savannah:** Right, and for their kids. Some people choose to stick around or stay together as a couple until the kids are older. More power to you if that’s what you choose to do. Because I actually did try, I actually believe it or not. I did try for a little bit to make it work. I didn’t want to make any rash decisions until I had all the facts and emotionally felt secure enough to do it from a place of clarity. He went to rehab for 35 days, and then we talked to the kids in the spring, and then also again in the fall. I’m one of those people where I have to go to the extent to make sure that I’m making that right decision. And so I was building the foundation of what could my life look like. Could we even possibly make any of this work? Now we’re into the future until the kids get older. And in the fall, I knew it wouldn’t work. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## My Husband betrayed me with men: Support from the Church **Savannah:** In terms of the church community, I’m Catholic. I immediately went to Monsignor. He was extremely supportive. I told him my husband betrayed me with men. He understood. What was going on and what needed to be done. He’s never once questioned my decision or the way I’ve handled it. He held me to my own beliefs to ensure that I was doing the right thing as a mom, which I appreciated. I don’t listen to a lot of the talk people do behind my back. People ask me what about the people that talk behind your back when you’re sitting in the pew. Do they look at you funny or whatever? I don’t care. I’ve just never been one to care. I’ve been through enough stuff in my life that I know that if I’m standing in my own place of integrity and my own truth, and doing what I know I need to be doing for my kids and myself. The rest can go by the wayside. I’m actually getting my marriage annulled right now. **Anne:** I am not super familiar with Catholic theology, so can you explain a little bit more about how that works? **Savannah:** I’m just starting the process of annulment, and pretty much, from what I understand, and I may even be getting some of this wrong. But annulment is in the church’s eyes, the marriage. It’s not that it didn’t exist, but it created when one or the other was untruthful. I believe he knew, I believe he had some sense of what was going on within himself before we married. He says, no. I don’t want to speak on his behalf. That’s my own thought process and my own woman intuition. ## Faith & Betrayal **Savannah: I**n the eyes of the church, you did not enter this marriage in a truthful way. So the marriage gets annulled. **Anne:** In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which is the church I belong to. I was married in the temple, and there are very specific requirements to do that. One of them is that you’re honest in your dealings with your fellow men. And one of them is that you obey the law of chastity, which in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints means you are not using pornography and that you are not masturbating. If you marry someone in the temple, you assume those things are true. By them saying, I am temple worthy, and not tell you that they’re lying is extremely traumatic for so many women who find out later. Whoa, he lied to marry me in the temple. And he not only lied to me. But there are so many witnesses of this temple marriage. There are multiple levels of clergy, and also family around who witnessed this. And all the family assumes these principles are being adhered to. So the lie is big when this happens within my church. And I think that’s why it’s so traumatizing to women when they find out. **Savannah:** You said that much better than I did. It was under false pretenses. We had 300 people at my wedding. It’s a big deal. As a woman, to be standing up there accepting this man who I thought was coming into this marriage one way. Instead, my husband betrayed me with men. He was betraying me for years. It’s not like it just happened once. For me, it was such a deep level of betrayal that I fought with this one. ## Annulment Decision **Savannah:** When Monsignor first told me, you can get your marriage annulled, I said, no way. I don’t want to get my marriage annulled. It was still a marriage even though my husband betrayed me with men. And now, looking back and taking a lot more spiritual time to assess this, as a woman and mom, I’m thinking. He’s offering this to me, he knows it can be done, and will go through the steps to get done. So, for myself, it’s me wanting to spiritually say to myself, you did the right thing, the other person did not, and under God’s law, under my own beliefs, and my own values and morals. So I want to enter this next stage of my life on my terms. And that means spiritually, according to my church. **Anne:** I appreciate you explaining that. Thank you. In my faith, the covenants we make in the temple are with God and your spouse. I felt like I wanted to maintain my covenant with God. And some women in my faith want to cancel their temple sealing, which doesn’t mean they didn’t keep their covenants with God. So, it’s interesting that as we embark on this healing journey, we have to grapple with what these promises meant to us as individuals. And also how our faith community perceives them, and how we want to define what happened to us. There are no wrong answers for us. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we just want to support women in their decisions, because they know what’s best for them and their situation. As we’re talking about finding out that your husband has betrayed you with men. ## My Husband betrayed me with men: Advice for Betrayal Trauma **Anne:** Do you have any advice for listeners who have experienced a husband betrayed me with men? **Savannah:** Definitely, look for somebody versed in betrayal trauma. Because the bottom line is actually the betrayal, right? Take some time for yourself, connect yourself with nature. Take time to meditate, take time to pray, take time to find your own safety . **Anne:** Yeah, [the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) has helped so many women heal from the inside out. So many addiction recovery programs approach it from the perspective of betrayers, from the perpetrator’s perspective, rather than the victim’s perspective. It’s so important for women to know that this devastation is normal, that anyone who has been through something like this would be devastated. **Savannah:** Yes, because people look at me and I am an insanely happy person, and people know me as always happy, like you’re always happy. I have moments of sadness. And I think people forget that all those who have been through this, the survivors, have moments of anxiety or sadness. Where we’re just distraught because we have been through a lot. It’s monumental, the amount of devastation that a betrayal can do to a person. ## Group Support & Recovery **Savannah:** Above all group was monumental in my healing from my husband betrayed me with men. Group every Wednesday, I needed that to get through this. That’s where I was at. Because it’s about learning the tools to get through it much quicker as time goes on. So the sadness, when I find something new, even in this summer, I found something else out that I didn’t know. And so when I find those things out, it takes me into that little, they call it the rabbit hole. The little rabbit hole of devastation. But now what’s cool is that I now know the tools to pull myself out of it right away. **Anne:** Yeah, having those strategies helps shorten that time from when we get an injury to when we can heal. Because post divorce, it continues to happen. Group support from [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/). And the strategies we learn in the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop,](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) Those really help us heal as quickly as possible. Savannah, thank you so much for sharing your story with us today. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma --- ### [What Does The Bible REALLY Say About Divorce?](https://www.btr.org/what-does-the-bible-say-about-divorce/) **Published:** September 27, 2022 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** If you've discovered your husband's infidelity, you may wonder, "What does the Bible say about divorce?" **Content:** Women who discover their husband’s infidelity might wonder, what does the Bible say about divorce? If you’re experiencing this type of emotionally and psychologically abusive behavior from your husband, here are some scriptures from the Bible about divorce you need to know. If you’re considering divorce, it’s important to determine if you’re experiencing emotional abuse. Take our [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ![What Does the Bible Really Say About Divorce](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-Does-The-Bible-REALLY-Say-About-Divorce.png "What Does the Bible Really Say About Divorce")## Transcript: What Does The Bible Say About Divorce? **Anne:** It’s just me today. Many women want to know. What does the Bible say about divorce? Regarding divorce, the Bible can be interpreted in different ways, but I wonder if we take a step back. And look at all the other issues related to what our husband is doing. [Is misogyny a part](/examples-of-misogyny/)? And then maybe that is what the Bible says about divorce. For example, I did an episode called What Does the Bible Say About Boundaries in Marriage? Divorce is a boundary. And in that episode, I talked a lot about how God commands women to separate themselves from evil, so it may not necessarily say the word divorce. But he is commanding us to separate ourselves from people who would harm us. Betrayal Trauma Recovery is interfaith and inter paradigm. So, if you don’t want to hear Christian scriptures, skip this episode. I happen to be Christian. And so reading scriptures helps me process things. But if you’re not, and want to skip this episode, go ahead and do that. A lot of times I speak from a secular place, so everybody feels welcome here. And I welcome everyone’s experience. The rest of this episode is from a recording I did years ago when I was still processing what was happening to me. I was reading the scriptures a lot to try to find peace and hope. And through doing that, I discovered the strategies I now teach in [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). And through those strategies, I believe God completely delivered my children and me, from my ex’s abuse. That we were still experiencing eight years post divorce. ## Personal Journey & Strategies **Anne:** These strategies work, whether you’re married or divorced. And they work whether you’re Christian or not. When I taught the strategies in the Living Free Workshop, I did not teach them in a religious context. I just taught them. This is the strategy, and this is how you implement it. The intent is to help you determine your husband’s true character, to see it. And many of the scriptures I studied years ago that you’ll hear in this recording today. Things about what the Bible says about divorce, and to perceive things accurately. ![Old Testament Divorce and Remarriage](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Old-Testiment-Divorce-And-ReMarriage.webp "Old Testament Divorce and Remarriage")And that is my goal for all women, regardless of their faith or paradigm. How can we accurately perceive our husband’s character? And then what strategies do we need to use to protect ourselves? And if you’re interested in listening to what I sounded like years ago and how I was processing these things, then join me in learning what the Bible say about divorce. Here’s that recording: I was studying the New Testament from the Bible, and those who are not Christian, hopefully you can still glean some wisdom and insight from my studies. I want to dedicate this episode to some of the verses that I read. They are applicable to our situation. Similarly, there are some very misogynistic verses in the Bible, particularly by Paul. I will not focus on those today. If you’re wondering about these scriptures that say women should be silent, they shouldn’t speak in church, or they should obey their husbands, read the book, *Jesus Feminist* by Sarah Bessie. That is on our website, [btr.org/ books](https://www.btr.org/books/). You want to be sure you are reading the right kind of [Marriage Bible Reference](https://www.btr.org/marriage-bible-reference/ "Christian intimacy books"). She really puts all those types of scriptures in context, and I don’t want to focus on those today. ## God’s Boundaries for Safety **Anne:** If you’ve read those scriptures and thought, what is going on with these verses? What is the Bible really saying about divorce? I highly recommend that book. What I wanted to talk about was scriptures that can bring us comfort. And also help us know [what the bible says about boundaries in marriage.](https://www.btr.org/what-does-the-bible-say-about-boundaries-in-marriage/ "what the bible says about boundaries in marriage.") that setting boundaries is God’s way of helping us stay safe. I believe God is a God of boundaries, and the commandments are to protect ourselves. And they’re also to protect other people. So for example, if we do not lie, we are protecting other people, and it is a way to show love for ourselves and our fellow men. ![Reasons to Get Divorce in the Bible](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Reasons-To-Get-Divorce-In-The-Bible-2.webp "Reasons to Get Divorce in the Bible")So as I go through some of these scriptures, you’ll see some patterns emerge. I read from the King James Version, so if you use a different translation or version, I’ll just say the scriptures and the verses. So I’m going to start in Matthew 5. This one struck me. This is the Sermon on the Mount, and 10 and 11 apply to us. It says, “Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.” “Blessed are ye. When men shall revile you and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely for my sake.” Now, when it says for my sake, I believe that is the sake of truth. I also believe in an afterlife, and I believe this life that we have now is hell. Like, it’s the worst it’s ever going to get right now. And that helps bring me peace. Some people might call it the spirit, some women who are not religious might just call it their gut or their intuition. ## What the bible says about divorce: Trusting our intuition **Anne:** If we can learn to trust our intuition or the spirit, it will be the most accurate way to discern truth. I know of a woman who had no proof affairs. He was a high-up member in her church and community, and also a seminary teacher. He had a ministry. She decided to file for divorce just on her gut alone, having absolutely no proof. And people called her crazy, her kids called her crazy, her church leaders called her crazy. She is one of the bravest women I know. Her courage is inspiring to me. She has been reviled, she’s been persecuted. All manner of evil has been said against her, falsely. For Christ’s sake, or for the truth’s sake. We have obviously talked about Matthew 5:28 on the podcast, saying that watching anything to get turned on is adultery. This is what the [bible says about cheating husbands.](https://www.btr.org/what-does-the-bible-say-about-cheating-husbands/ "bible says about cheating husbands.") Christ says himself in that verse, “Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.” This is what the bible says about infidelity and divorce. We know exploitative materials use or lusting is not something to be taken lightly. It is an abuse of trust. In Matthew 6:22, it says, “The light of the body is the eye. If therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.” Then verse 23, “But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness.” You can see infographics that explain many of the other concepts I teach on the podcast on our social media channels. You can find us on [Instagram @btr.org](https://www.instagram.com/btr.org_)\_ or on [YouTube just search btr.org](https://www.youtube.com/@BtrOrg) just click the link and you’ll find our channel. ![Bible Says This About Divorce](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Bible-Says-This-About-Divorce.webp "Bible Says This About Divorce")## Four Pillars of Abuse **Anne:** I’ll explain the four pillars of abuse. There’s a good infographic on social media. The infographics are on this podcast episode. The four pillars of abuse are number one, entitlement and objectification. I’m entitled to it. This is an object. I’m entitled to a woman cleaning the bathrooms, to her cooking. I’m entitled to view her as an object. I deserve it. That type of mindset. The second pillar is control, manipulation, lies, and secrecy. Calculated behaviors to try to control an outcome. It’s goal oriented good guy facade. I’m going to manipulate other people’s perception of me by showing up at church, by doing service. It’s calculated because it includes lies and secrecy. The third pillar of abuse is lack of integrity, both relational and personal. If they say they are true to their wife, but they’re visiting prostitutes or masturbating. Then that is another way they abuse that relationship or trust. ![What Reasons Does the Bible Allow for Divorce](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-Reasons-does-The-Bible-Allow-For-Divorce-1.webp "What Reasons Does the Bible Allow for Divorce")The fourth pillar of abuse is lack of accountability. They have no empathy, no remorse, and they do not make restitution when they hurt somebody. So when we talk about those four pillars of abuse, you can see that eye is not single and full of light. Those four pillars of abuse make it so he’s not able to perceive things accurately. The way they perceive the world makes it so their whole body is full of darkness. I would say my ex is like completely and totally delusional. He cannot view the world from a perspective of truth or accuracy. The way he interprets the world isn’t accurate. This is a way of looking at the world, and it’s systemic, and it’s societal. The Bible says to divorce yourself from wickedness. ## Financial & Personal Struggles **Anne:** So, “trying to help” a man stop viewing the world this way is impossible. They have to do it themselves. The man has to admit that the way he views the world is skewed. In that same chapter, Matthew chapter 6:31 through 34, I love this. It helps me when I get stressed about finances, which I don’t have at all. And my house is disgusting. The structure is my dream house, but the actual inside is old and gross. Like I have carpet under my dining room table, and it bothers me. And I dream day in and day out of replacing that with luxury vinyl planks. That’s what I’m looking forward to. It really stresses me out, but right now I can’t do anything about it. And I can’t do anything about my long-term financial future right now. All I can do is take a step at a time. I was at the point four years ago where I didn’t know how to pay for groceries. I didn’t know how I would pay for my house payment. ![Bible Say About Divorce](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Bible-Say-About-Divorce-1.webp "Bible Say About Divorce")So I’ve been there. Now I can pay for groceries, which is great. I can pay my house payment, but there are other things that I’m stressed about. So no matter what stage you are at, this scripture may or may not help. In the Bible, it says about divorce: Verse 31. “Therefore, take no thought saying what shall we eat or what shall we drink or wherewithal shall we be clothed? For your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things, but seek ye first the kingdom of God.” And I’ll say there, seek ye first the truth. It says, “but seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness.” ## What does the bible say about divorce? Living in the Now **Anne:** For those who are atheists or not religious, perhaps the way to say this would be, but seek ye first truth. “And all these things shall be added unto you. Take therefore no thought for the morrow, for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself.” One way to put this is we’re in this eternal moment of now. It’s always now. It’s never going to be tomorrow. When I was so traumatized and having a difficult time just functioning, I had a friend who would say, “Let’s look at right now. Do you have a roof over your head right now?” And I would say yes, and she’d say, “Do you have food right now? Are you hungry?” And I’d be like, no, I ate. “Do you have water right now?” And I’d be like, yes, I have water right now. Taking one moment at a time when the trauma is extreme really helped me. And studying the scriptures. ![Spiritual Abusers Want You To Think You're Rebellious](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/GcKBBYifx2I/maxresdefault.jpg) Because there’s no other way to do it. There’s no other way but through. And I love this, because if we focus on now, especially when the trauma is intense, we will eventually come out of the fog. And all we have to worry about is right now. So, this always now idea, I think, is what this scripture is talking about. And it can help us get through the trauma. The now principle still applies to me. I’m concerned about my disgusting carpet, but I can say, right now I can go for a walk. Right now I can take care of myself, all right. ## Frustrations with Prayer **Anne:** Matthew 7 is rough. I’m going to preface this part with, I hate scriptures like this, because I believe them. And then I do what it says, and I don’t get what I want. And it irks me, and it frustrates me, and it makes me very mad. So in Matthew 7, verses 7 through 10, in the Bible, it says this that can be applied to divorce, and probably all of you have done this, and probably most of you feel the same way about it, but seven says, “Ask and it shall be given unto you. Seek and you shall find. Knock and it shall be opened unto you for everyone that asketh receiveth and he, that seeketh Findeth, and to him, that knocketh if shall it be opened.” So I’m sure many of you have gone to church, or someone, a friend has said, have you prayed about it? And you look at them and roll your eyes, and you’re like, oh, good idea. I never thought about that. Of course, you’ve prayed about it. If you believe in God, you have knelt down, you have bawled your eyes out, you have screamed and yelled to God. Of course, you have prayed about it, have asked. Of course you have begged God for help. You’ve begged him for miracles. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) And this scripture says, “Ask and it shall be given unto you.” Now, if you’re like me and you’re like, this is a bunch of bullcrap, like I pray and pray and pray, and it doesn’t happen. I really don’t know what to say, actually, except for that in spite of how frustrated I get, in spite of how it seems like some people pray and they have answers. ## Gratitude For What i Went Through **Anne:** Some people pray and their husband’s like, oh, I’ve been terrible you must think[ I hate you](/my-husband-hates-me/). And they start taking accountability and being honest. I thought that happened to me. For those who know my whole story, there was a stint of five years where I thought that was happening. Like, he seemed humble. He seemed honest. But he wasn’t. He was grooming me that whole time, but he seemed like it. So there are a few big giant prayers that I have prayed. I’ve searched and prayed. One is for a righteous, noble, non-abusive man to come into my life. To have a beautiful friendship and relationship that is kind, loving, and amazing. I’ve prayed that prayer so many times, and it has not been given to me. So do I just take this scripture and throw it out the window and say, okay, I’m going to stop praying? Or do I say maybe I’m not ready, or maybe God is preparing this for me. Or maybe it won’t be in this life? But I will say this morning I felt the most, like, amazing sense of gratitude for what I had been through. ![You Cant Go Back and Change the Beginning](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/You-cant-go-back-and-change-the-beginning.webp "You Cant Go Back and Change the Beginning")And an amazing sense of gratitude for my ex-husband, because I feel like where I am now, I am so much healthier. I’m so much happier. I have so much more knowledge and wisdom. This is what I have gained from studying the Bible about divorce. Now, I’m not the wisest or most knowing. I have a long way to go. But I’m so much better prepared now. And I don’t know if I could have had that deep and abiding, kind, loving relationship before. And maybe I could have it now. I don’t know. I don’t know. Maybe he’s preparing me for it. Maybe he’s not. I don’t know. ## What does the bible say aout divorce: Choosing to Believe **Anne:** When it comes to these types of scriptures, I have to make a choice. Do I believe in God and do I believe this scripture? I can choose yes or no. The choice I make is yes. I choose to believe, to trust that the prayers I am saying. Even though it doesn’t feel like it, I’m mad, and I’m frustrated. That really when it comes down to it, God listens to my prayers and has my best interest at heart. And the things happening in my life are happening for my good. Now that sounds like trying to placate a victim to get her to shut up. But it also might be a loving God who is leading me, guiding me, with the Bible and his words on divorce. And taking me to a better place. I’m going to choose to believe that. And the reason I’m going to believe that is because I think it’s true. Also, the alternative is so dark, depressing, and sad, and it makes me sad. And where is that going to get me? I don’t want to go that route. At least for me, I just make a choice. And that choice, I believe, leads me in a better direction. So 9 and 10 say, “Or what man is there of you whom if his son ask bread will he give him a stone?” And in 10, “or if he ask a fish will he give him a serpent?” Everyone here feels like they’ve asked God for bread, and God has given them rocks. Everyone here feels like they asked for a fish, and God gave them a serpent. We’ve all felt like that. We feel like we’re praying, we’re praying, we’re praying, and we’re getting rocks. Or we’re getting snakes. ## Answers To Prayers **Anne:** When I feel like that, it humbles me. Humbles me to the point where I kneel down and say, Okay, I feel like I’m getting rocks, and I feel like I’m getting snakes. What I want is bread. And I want fish. So what do I need to learn? Please teach me. Please guide me. So currently, with these scriptures from the Bible about divorce, what I’m considering, help me understand what you want me to think. What you want me, God, to see. How can I remove these ways in which I perceive things that may be incorrect, and start viewing things truthfully? And truth be told, so many of my prayers have been answered. The prayers that always get answered in my house are prayers for lost objects. I know that sounds ridiculous, but every time we lose something, I tell my son, hey, pray, let’s try and find, it could be anything, a library book, an earring, whatever. In fact, I lost one of my favorite earrings, we said a prayer, and my son found it. On the floor, it was a tiny little, cubic zirconium. I don’t even know if that’s how you say it, but, like, little fake diamond stud. Which should have been impossible to find. He found it. I love the little prayers that get answered, because I think, okay, God always answers my prayers when I ask Him to help me find something. He does, and I think that’s funny. So, if you’re thinking, He never answers my prayers. Are there types of prayers answered? For me, it’s finding objects. There are other types of prayers that are frequently, quickly answered. In fact, I remember one clearly. ## Collective Prayers for Truth **Anne:** I was skiing in a big bowl, and there was lots of powder, and I lost my ski. We looked and looked and looked, and I couldn’t find it. I was giving up hope. It had been a long time. And I thought, oh, I need to pray. I prayed, stood up. Walked over, stuck my hand in the snow, and pulled out my ski. So, does God answer my prayers? Does He hear me? The answer to that is yes. And I don’t know why some of my prayers have not been answered. But I do know that many of them have been. I encourage all of us to think about the collective prayers we are all saying, because we’re all saying the same prayer. When will truth win? When will we be protected? And if all of us pray this collective prayer of truth. And we’re all praying this collective prayer of peace, and it’s not being answered. My guess is God has something big in store for all of us. And maybe it will happen for all of us all at once. Maybe he’ll come down and like strike all the abusive men from the earth all at once. I don’t know. But this is a collective prayer. We’re all praying together. And I want to continue to do that, because I believe I’m choosing to believe. That God is hearing us, because he’s our only hope. We know that the law doesn’t help us, that therapists don’t. We know that like society doesn’t see it. So we know that God is our only option here, so let’s not give up on him. In Matthew nine, in the bible it says about divorce and abusive men. ## What does the bible say about divorce? Fear Not the Unrighteous **Anne:** “Wherefore, Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts? Only God can see the heart.” And then in verse 16, “No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment. For that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse. 17 neither do men put new wine in old bottles, else the bottles break, and the new wine runneth out, and the bottles perish. But they put new wine into new bottles and both are preserved.” So he’s talking about this overall change, right? So if you have someone who is perceiving things incorrectly, you can’t just change one thing about that perception. You have to change the heart and mind. You have to change those perceptions. And I think that is true for us as well. My perceptions have changed a lot. I perceived myself as safe, that my husband was a good guy. I perceived other abusive men as, oh, they just, they need love. And I didn’t understand boundaries. Like my whole perception has shifted, and that has helped keep me safe. In Matthew 10: 26, in the Bible it says about divorce. We have Christ telling the righteous directly to fear not the unrighteous. He says, “Fear them not, for there is nothing covered that shall not be revealed and hid that shall not be known. Then he tells us, “Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your father, but the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, for ye are of more value than many sparrows. ## Christ’s Invitation for Rest **Anne:** The truth will come out. It will come out. I don’t know how. I don’t know when. All of us pray for that. But the important thing is that we walk in truth. That we are shedding our own perceptions that we are becoming healthier. And this one, of course, everyone loves Matthew 11:28 through 30. “Come unto me, all ye that labor, and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me. For I am meek and lowly in heart, and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” So when I study the scriptures, I underline bad things red. Things that hurt people, they hurt me or they hurt someone else. Then dark purple is boundaries, faith or belief is in orange, so if I’m like oh, this is what I want to do. I don’t know if I believe it, but I’m going to choose to believe this thing. That’s in orange. This has helped me to learn what the Bible says about divorce and abuse. So in Matthew 15, I have a lot of red, and in verse 8, talking about people who do not live in truth. “This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoreth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching the doctrines of the commandments of men.” A lot of us have seen this. We have a husband who confesses to love us. They say that, but their actions are different. Or they show up at church and say they love God, but then they’re unwilling to be honest. ## Call for Community Insights **Anne:** Or to be faithful to their marriage vows. Matthew verse 11, int the Bible says about divorce, “Not that which goeth into the mouth defile a man.” So, for example, you know, what someone hears may or may not hurt them. It does, we know pornography will hurt them. We know that certain things we hear are going to hurt us. It says, “but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.” This is saying we’ll all be exposed to harmful things. In 15:18 he says, “But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart, and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.” These are the things which defile a man, we have experienced this ourselves, men bearing false witness against us. So they’re saying I was a witness to her not loving me or her not respecting me, I appreciate those who are not religious being patient and listening to these insights that I gained. Those who study the scriptures, I would love to hear your thoughts about how scriptures have helped. And those who aren’t, any quotes you have or insights or maybe books that you study that have helped you heal and find truth for you, would be awesome. So comment at the end of this transcript. I want to hear what you have to say. We’re all trying to get through this together. And if we can be unified in our desire for truth and justice, then we can change the world together. If you need live support, [attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session](https://www.btr.org/group/), I want to hear your comments, so please comment below. ## What does the bible say about divorce? Reflections on the Past **Anne:** Listening to myself way back then brings back so many memories of the fear I had and all the worries, and how I was just trying to will myself through the next day. Not knowing what would happen. And looking back now. It’s so painful to think about how I grappled with so many questions and problems. I’m so grateful to be safe where I am now. And know what I know about what the Bible says about divorce. So again, whether you’re married, divorced or whatever stage you’re in, and no matter what your faith or paradigm is. [The Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) teaches the strategies in a secular way that works for anyone. Using those strategies helped me find peace. So to learn more, click the link. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Armchair Psychology Examples: When You Get Labeled](https://www.btr.org/armchair-psychology-examples/) **Published:** January 23, 2024 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** What is armchair pathology and how is it harming betrayal trauma victims? **Content:** **Armchair Pathology**: The pathologizing (diagnosing, whether by a formal diagnosis or simply a suggestion) of an individual without thorough, knowledge-based, individualized care by a provider or advocate. If you’re a victim of betrayal, here are some armchair psychology examples you need to be aware of. ![What Are the Armchair Psychology Examples I Need to Know](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Armchair-Psychology-Examples-To-Be-Aware-Of.webp "Armchair Psychology Examples to Be Aware of")When a provider or advocate labels a victim with a certain pathology, without being educated or trained in abuse, it can be damaging to the victim. Too many so-called experts subject women to severe harm. [ If you’re being blamed for your own emotional and psychological abuse, we’re here to help. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY.](https://www.btr.org/group/) ## Why Is Armchair Psychology A Dangerous Practice? The symptoms of trauma often mimic mental illnesses, disorders, and pseudo-psychological conditions (like “codependency.” Meaning that when providers do not factor in trauma and abuse to a client’s profile, any diagnosis or suggestion can be completely inaccurate. ## Have YOU Experienced The Dangers Of Armchair Psychology? Some victims have experienced the dangers of armchair psychology without even realizing it – because this practice has become so normalized. You can ask yourself these questions: - Has a provider or advocate diagnosed me with a mental illness, disorder, or something else, without ever having seen or spoken with me? - Have I been prescribed medication without having been given a diagnosis? - Was I given a serious diagnosis after only one visit, or after a telehealth appointment? - Did the provider give me a diagnosis after speaking with my husband? ![What is Armchair Psychology](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/what-is-armchair-psychology.webp "What is Armchair Psychology")## Transcript: Armchair Psychology Examples: What YOU Need To Know **Anne:** I have a member of our community on today’s episode, I’m going to call her Paige. Paige is a certified midwife. And she wanted to come on today to talk about armchair psychology examples. And how armchair psychology harms victims. Welcome, Paige **Paige:** Hi, thanks for having me. **Anne:** So Paige let’s start with the definition of armchair psychology and why that harms victims. **Paige:** When people are labeled with a disorder or a diagnosis without actually having had interactions or contact with a provider or advocate. We see it a lot in the betrayal trauma community, “You’re just not healed enough.” Or, “You’re just triggered because you’re not healed.” ![The Surprising Truth About Trauma Bonds - They Don't Exist!](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/QleyqobSRCQ/maxresdefault.jpg) ## Armchair Psychology Examples: Harmful Labels and Misconceptions **Paige:** This is especially when women are countering armchair psychology. They diagnose the woman as codependent, trauma-bonded, or any of these victim-blaming labels. And they’re like, “No, that’s not the case. He actively abuses me. What you say is harmful and perpetuates abuse and abuse mindset.” The armchair psychologist dismisses them as not healed. Because they don’t understand, they’re not healed, they’re triggered. **Anne:** So many people say if you’re angry, it’s because you’re not healed. It’s not that you’re actively being abused, it’s that the abuse happened long ago and you’re still making a big deal out of it and you shouldn’t be. Codependency falls into this cateory as well, [you are not codependent](https://www.btr.org/therapist-codependency/ "you are not codependent"). ![Armchair Psychology Examples of Pathologizing Wives What You Need to Know](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Armchair-Psychology-Examples-of-Pathologizing-Wives.webp "Armchair Psychology Examples of Pathologizing Wives")**Paige:** Exactly, it’s amusing to me, because many betrayal community women I interact with have gotten to that place where they are like, “Yeah, this is harmful language. This is a systemic problem that needs to be addressed.” They are some of the most healed individuals I’ve met, because they’re really putting in that inner work. They’re not doing a lot of the bypassing. **Anne:** I think it’s interesting that the more healed she gets, the more likely she is to know what she wants. And to be more confident to set boundaries. **Paige:** Oh, absolutely. **Anne:** If she says, “I’m upset. This is frustrating, and I don’t want to talk to you about it. Will you please leave my presence?” ## Dismissal of Victims’ Experiences: Armchair Psychology **Anne:** People might be like, “Whoa, what’s wrong with her? She must be traumatized. She can’t even handle a conversation!” Instead of realizing, she just doesn’t want to deal with this anymore. She’s more healed than before. She can see what’s going on and separate herself from it more quickly. With armchair psychology people might think she’s not healed when she is very healed. Also when she’s actively abused, so she can’t be healed, and they’re saying, “You’re not healed enough.” That’s probably true, except they’re not enabling her to be healed because there’s still ongoing abuse. **Paige:** When you’re still experiencing ongoing abuse, you’ll have parts of you being re-traumatized. That doesn’t necessarily mean that an advocate or provider telling you that you’re not healed isn’t dismissive of reality. **Anne:** Or it’s useful. If anyone tells you you’re not healed, it should be you. You should be the one who gets to decide. I remember someone telling me, “I’m sorry you’re not happy.” It’s like the classic misogynistic, “You need to smile more!” And I thought, “I am happy.” That doesn’t have anything to do with this other issue. I can be happy and acknowledge that there’s harm going on simultaneously. ![Armchair Psychology Harms Victims of Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Artboard-09.webp)Bad Psychology Victimizes Abuse Survivors## There Are Systemic Issues in Psychology **Paige:** That’s why our language is important, and why pathologizing is so harmful. When we’re talking about experiencing something, instead of using the word ‘but’, use the word ‘and’. Like I’m happy and still traumatized. A lot of it roots back to our language and how powerful our language is; especially when working with and experiencing this level of trauma and abuse. Recognizing historically, the models we have in psychology are steeped in misogyny and the abuse of women. So much psychology is built on a foundation of pathologizing women as unstable and hysterical. We need to move away from that. The language we use is important. Somebody may say, “I identify with being trauma-bonded. That felt empowering to me to realize I was trauma-bonded.” ![Armchair Psychology Misdiagnoses Victims of Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Artboard-11.webp)As they move through the process, away from those models and unlearning a lot of what is taught, they find that is really blaming victims in its core. Betrayal Trauma Recovery naming the abuse as a choice is very empowering, because we don’t have to revert to pathologizing. **Anne:** I agree. Armchair psychology is steeped in misogyny, oppression of women, and women are property. So she’s like an extension of her husband, rather than an individual. I love the book, *The Woman They Could Not Silence* by Kate Moore. They put her in an insane asylum, because they couldn’t figure out why she didn’t love her husband like she should. She had so much hatred of him because he was abusing her and because he put her in an insane asylum. They were like, “She has to stay here, because she should love him and be grateful for him.” It’s just a vicious cycle. ## Believing Victims & Setting Boundaries For Safety **Anne:** How hard is it to believe a victim? When she says, “Well, actually, I’m doing well. My boundaries help me feel safer.” And then someone says to them, “No, you’re not. You’re not doing well.” And armchair psychology comes into play. **Paige:** I think it’s that ego default. I know more than you. I’ve taken more classes. I’ve received certificates. I have more letters after my name. When I went into midwifery, I did the direct entry traditional apprenticeship preceptor model. When you add so many letters to the end of your name, you sometimes sacrifice pieces of yourself for those letters. Your ego is sensitive to those challenges. ![Examples of Armchair Psychology That You Need to Be Aware of](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Examples-of-Armchair-Psychology-You-Need-to-Know.webp "Examples of Armchair Psychology You Need to Know")“I’ve done all this research and I’ve done all this reading, and you are obviously this unhealed victim, so you don’t know as much as I know.” That’s a big part I’ve witnessed. People have a hard time hearing others’ truths. I can acknowledge that people will have different experiences of my spouse, but to minimize that and the betrayal I’ve experienced, because , “He’s a nice guy”… **Anne:** As she puts that in quotes, right? **Paige:** Yes. Air quotes for that. …is the ego at play. I don’t want to believe I’ve been tricked. I don’t want to believe I’ve been bamboozled. We don’t want to believe we’ve paid thousands of dollars towards a flawed education system that is inherently based on the abuse and exploitation of women. **Anne:** One other issue is if they have not been through it themselves, thinking, ” This wouldn’t happen to me so I’m somehow smarter. So I have the answers.” **Paige:** Luck, pure luck. ## Ego & Professionalism In Armchair Psychology **Anne:** It had nothing to do with them. They don’t know it has nothing to do with the victims, either. I think it’s some sort of self protection mechanism, like, “I know more. I can see this and show her how to get out of it. That would never happen to me.” Not realizing, no, this could happen to you as well. It could actually happen to you right now, and you don’t even know it. **Paige:** When you put gender into play, there are professionals who may have witnessed abuse and trauma in their own childhoods. But being male has a different societal experience than their sister, mother, or grandmother. Their witnessing of it is not the same as somebody actively experiencing it. ![Armchair Psychology Examples We've Learned to Be Wary Of](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Armchair-Psychology-Examples-Weve-Learned-to-Look-For.webp "Armchair Psychology Examples Weve Learned to Look for")**Anne:** By default, all children of women who are abused are also abused. The type of abuse they’re experiencing and the way they’re experiencing it is vastly different than what the wife is experiencing. The more women are aware of this type of abuse and the systemic oppressive nature of the exploitation of women. The more upset we’re getting about it. For good reason. The more abusers think women are overreacting. Thank goodness the healthy men are like, “Yeah, this makes sense.” Even if they can’t understand it on a visceral level, they’re allies in it, and that is helpful. The more women speak out about it, the more abusive men are trying to continue that tradition of oppression of women. Rather than listening and learning, they’re like, “No, that’s not what’s happening. I’m not abusive. You are because you won’t give me intimacy, you won’t do the dishes, or because you’re asking me questions.” ## Armchair Psychology & Angry Feminists **Paige:** Then they want to gaslight the situation by being like, “Now you’re just an angry feminist.” Whatever thing they’ve deemed derogatory or less than, so it can just completely excuse their behavior because you’ve fallen into this less than category. **Anne:** When someone says that to me, I’m like, “Of course I’m an angry feminist, absolutely! You’re not? Why would you not be?” That’s confusing, because of course I’m an angry feminist. All people who realize the systemic oppression of women should be angry. And they should be feminists. To me, it’s not an insult. I’m like, “Yes, you’ve hit the nail on the head. Thank you.” ![We've Learned to Watch Out For These Armchair Psychology Examples](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Psychology-Examples-Weve-Learned-to-Watch-Out-For.webp "Armchair Psychology Examples Weve Learned to Watch out for")The reason they say that is to manipulate you to act differently, hoping you’ll be like, “Oh, I am. I’m sorry. I won’t be so upset. I’ll do something different.” So when we agree and say, “Oh, yeah, thanks for pointing that out. I’m so proud to be that. Yeah, that’s great.” **Paige:** I get my personal experience from 20 years ago. I saw a provider and received a diagnosis of bipolar disorder. Psychology examples like that. Any provider I’ve interacted with since then is like, “That’s a weird thing to diagnose you with. You definitely don’t fit the category for bipolar disorder.” I dated somebody I had been friends with since middle school. We dated after high school. This person emotionally abused me. And I was misdiagnosed with this pathology. I stopped all medication. I have not taken any psychiatric medication since. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) ## Wrongly Pathologizing Women’s Trauma **Paige:** We have a mass medicalization of women because we don’t have the proper avenues in place to address trauma and abuse. The lack of naming abuse that’s occurring happens so often to women. You have a woman who is assaulted and then she’s diagnosed with borderline. When your body responds organically and physiologically, how it’s designed when it comes to trauma and abuse. The biggest issue with armchair psychology we see is oftentimes that women’s pathology is used to medicate. And further abuse them. Men’s pathology is used to enable and excuse abusive behaviors. **Anne:** There’s also this misogynistic thing going on that it’s easier for women if they have some kind of black-and-white situation. He is 100 percent unable to change, so now I can get to safety. Or, he 100 percent is not willing to change, so now I can get to safety. ## Safety & Boundaries In Relationships **Anne:** Rather than realizing you need to get to safety, whether he can change or not, If he’s not safe right now. You don’t need to worry about whether he can change. Or worry about whether a program can change him. You don’t need to worry about any of that, which is really hard. All you need to think about is he a healthy, safe person right now, today? Then today I need to get to safety. It’s like saying, “This person has Ebola and I know they can be cured, so I’m going to continue sleeping in the same bed with them.” That would be crazy! If the person is currently unsafe, your proximity to them is not a good idea. If they had some kind of dangerous disease, you would not want to be in proximity to them until they were better. Thinking someone can be cured from Ebola, and so you can hang out with them and dinner with them when they’re still actively showing symptoms, is not wise. **Paige:** I’ve not heard that analogy before, but I can see the application. Regardless of whether they can be cured or not, you’re actively being abused. You’re actively exposed to this virus so you are still experiencing the negative effects of it. **Anne:** I think that’s what people need to think about. Are they currently exhibiting unhealthy abusive behaviors? That’s your indicator, not whether they could stop them in the future. Also being able to recognize the difference between actual healthy behaviors and grooming, which is also hard. This is why it’s important to learn how to [set boundaries with your husband.](https://www.btr.org/how-to-set-boundaries-with-my-husband/ "set boundaries with your husband. ") ## Harmful Armchair Psychology Examples Pathologize Women **Paige:** On that same subject that is harmful with the armchair or pathologizing is the providers who tell women they aren’t healed, are the same people profiting from her desperate desires to be whole. **Anne:** Especially if it’s another woman who has been through it. For example, there are women who have been through it, who feel like the codependency model helped them. Who am I to disagree with their experience? I can only disagree with the model. **Paige:** When you disagree with the model itself, that’s where ego comes into play. People are like, “No, you’re telling me that I didn’t experience what I did.” I’m literally just saying this model itself is harmful, and here are the reasons why it’s harmful. It continues to blame victims for being active in her own abuse, when that’s not the case. **Anne:** There were times when I did [12 step for my husband’s addiction](https://www.btr.org/12-step-for-wives-of-addicts/ "12 step for my husband's addiction"). So I was in “recovery.” doing 12 steps. I worked on “my side of the street” because I thought it worked. That’s what people told me. I had faith in that, and practiced the principles they taught. I found myself repeatedly abused, not understanding abuse and not getting any abuse education. [CSAT therapists](https://www.btr.org/csat-therapist-near-me/ "CSAT therapists") can fall into this category too. For an abuse victim, I look back at 12 Step and think I was so much more traumatized than I needed to be at the time. Because of armchair psychology of diagnosis. ## Trauma In 12 Step Programs **Anne:** I was doing the best I could. I think people trying to help me in 12 step were doing the best they could. I don’t think they had negative intentions. But now thinking back, I’m like, wow, they said super, super harmful things. It’s too harmful to have a bunch of victims sitting in a circle, not knowing they’re victims of abuse, trying to look at their own character defects rather than realizing, “Wait, we’re victims of abuse. We’re strong, we’re brave. We can get to safety.” Thinking back on that is taking my breath away right now. That was so yucky. **Paige:** It’s the hope to not have somebody else experience that yuckiness. When my spouse started CR, Celebrate Recovery, with that 12 step program, and went to their meetings. They had a family-type meal beforehand. And let me tell you what happened before you google [Celebrate Recovery near me](/celebrate-recovery-near-me/). I’d go for the meal and then I’d leave because I was like, this is not my jam. It’s just not for me. People, especially women, within their group would stand near the door to try and interact with me to stop me as I was leaving in very passive-aggressive ways. **Anne:** Coercion. **Paige:** Coercion, further coercion. That’s a great word for it. They found their own identity and healing in those models. I’m just not keen to participate in models that enable abusers. So much of it, they use terminology to gaslight partners or be like, “Just stay on your side of the street.” ## The Street Is Dangerous Because An Abuser Is On It **Anne:** That street is dangerous. If he’s on it, it’s not that you need to go on the other side. You need to get off the street. Generally speaking, abusers feel uncomfortable setting boundaries with other people. They don’t mind upsetting their wife, but they lie to their wife to solicit prostitutes, use pornography or do other stuff. They’re good at lying, but they never want to tell her no to her face. Because people perceive that as abusive. He’s not willing to say no. **Paige:** Yeah. **Anne:** Because he thinks if I maintain this image that I’m on her side, then I’ll still be able to get stuff from her. **Paige:** What do I get from this? Many abusers choose to continue to participate because it benefits them. **Paige:** “It doesn’t matter that I’m deceptive and abusing my wife. I get this benefit.” There’s always choice. We often negate that choice with labels in pathology. ## Armchair Psychology During Pregnancy **Anne:** As a midwife, can you talk a little about experiencing emotional and psychological abuse and experiencing betrayal when you are pregnant? And armchair psychology during pregnancy? I had some super traumatic things occur, as I’m sure so many women have who listened when I was pregnant. Especially with my first son. It was so emotionally abusive, crazy, and awful that I ended up on bed rest. I had a pretty severe contractions and couldn’t get out of bed. Then, in the end, my cervix would not open, not even a little bit, not even after 36 hours of Pitocin. So I had to have a C-section. I had a lot of pregnancy complications. I’m not sure if it was directly due to emotional and psychological abuse, but I feel like it was. A doctor might confirm that. But I felt like all of it was directly related. **Paige:** We’ve had women who have shared different levels of abuse. If you feel safe communicating that with your provider, let them know. Unfortunately, not all providers will be safe. That is disappointing, we can’t even find safety during pregnancy and birth. One of the biggest things in any pregnancy, but especially when dealing with active trauma and abuse, is focusing on nutrition. Nutrition in pregnancy can address many things abuse can typically exacerbate. When we are malnourished, we are not doubling our blood volume physiologically the way we need to. We are not growing uterine tissue in the ways we need to for the birth process itself. You find eating is hard when abuse is present. The easiest tip for anyone is to eat two eggs per day. It’s one of the best steps to take in terms of nutrition and pregnancy. ## Nutrition In Pregnancy Helps The Impact Of Abuse **Paige:** You’re getting choline, all types of nutrients, and B vitamins. Eggs actually feed your liver, and your liver is doing a lot of work. It’s not only dealing with the hormones of pregnancy, but also with the hormones of abuse and trauma. Nourishing yourself is one tool that helps counter the epigenetic impacts of abuse and trauma on yourself and your baby. **Anne:** Copious amounts of ice cream Is the answer. **Paige:** That is a healthy fat for your brain and your baby’s brain. I would use heavy whipping cream on frozen berries. You’re still getting that good fat, it’s so good, yeah. So not seeing me visually, when I talk about nutrition and pregnancy, many people give me a side eye. They’re like, “You’re 260 pounds. You obviously don’t know anything about nutrition. What the heck?” Nutrition and pregnancy is very different from our society’s definition of our diet culture. There are providers out there who still practice a restriction in pregnancy mindset, where they don’t want women to gain more than 15 pounds. I’ve known recently doctors, they’re like, you don’t need to gain more than 15 pounds. Any more than that, it’s going to be a problem. **Anne:** My one son was nine pounds. **Paige:** My biggest baby was ten pounds, ten point six ounces. My smallest was five pounds, four point seven ounces, but that was where I was going through the bulk of betrayal recovery. That ended up being a premature delivery, because of my physiological response to trauma. My blood pressure spikes and it spikes high. ## Personal Healing Methods That Help **Paige:** With nutritional aspects I addressed in my pregnancy, being 10 weeks premature, he came out big, fat, breathing. He didn’t have any issues because of meeting those needs. He was great. I have experienced negative physiological responses to trauma and abuse. I find that involvement with Brazilian jujitsu and training works for me the most. **Anne:** Oh, that’s awesome. You found something that helped you heal. I experienced betrayal through all three pregnancies. But, when it was the most intense. I’d go outside and listen to music. If you’ve listened to this podcast since the beginning, you might have heard some of those first episodes of me crying in my basement. Which I’m still in my basement, by the way, in the same room. But I listened to music and garden. And I actually created a Betrayal Trauma Recovery playlist, so if you go to the bottom of any of the pages on my website, where it says, *join the community,* you can put your email in there. And one of the emails you’ll receive eventually is to the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org) music playlist. I would listen to many of the songs I put on this list, or the meditations and gardening. Go out, stick my hands in the dirt, get my face all dirty, and dig this giant compost pile. It was this literal big, giant pile of dirt, and I would go out with a pitchfork and dig in it. It felt so good to me to just move my body and be with dirt. Some women don’t want to move at all. They want to cocoon themselves in a blanket in their closet. That’s fine too. There are all kinds of methods for processing what we’re feeling. Whatever works is great. ## Finding Betrayal Trauma Recovery **Paige:** Very relatable with the gardening is a medicinal herb garden. So many of them are so easy to grow at home. I don’t necessarily harvest, it’s more just getting out there and working in that environment. I have found your community, and the ability to name behaviors for the abuse and choice they are has been one of the most empowering things for myself. Those two things have been huge for me. Being able to recognize what abusive behaviors are and how they’re harmful has been huge. And not having to deal with armchair psychology. **Anne:** Would you mind sharing how you found Betrayal Trauma Recovery? **Paige:** I have a friend who was in a 14-year marriage with somebody actively emotionally abusive, infidelity, all those things. We had known each other through school, but not really had a close relationship. In the complete explosion and destruction of my marriage, I remembered somebody in passing had mentioned just a snippet of her story. I reached out to her. It wasn’t even about what was happening. I had asked if she knew this specific person, and she later told me she immediately knew why I was asking. Just in her own gut feeling. We created a friendship, and she shared a link to one of your podcast episodes. That was over four years ago. We will forever have that deep spiritual connection that happens when you navigate such a profound grief that comes with abuse. **Anne:** As we conclude here, as you were resisting the abuse, trying to get help, can you talk about the obstacles that stopped you from realizing what was happening? ## Armchair Psychology: The Pitfalls of Couples Counseling **Paige:** If I could go back in time, I would never have consented to couples counseling. Even though it was my idea like, “Oh crap, we need to get to couples counseling, you had sex with a stranger. We have to go see somebody about this.” It was not the best idea. I know the provider meant well, but they do not know how to deal with the abuse of infidelity, and abusive behaviors. They don’t know how to deal with that. So couples counseling is not something I would ever do again. I experienced that. I can say, “Hey, listen, this isn’t a good idea.” Until all abusive behavior stops, it’s not safe for you. They tell you to repair something that you didn’t break because of armchair psychology diagnosis of codependency and other pathology. **Anne:** Paige, thank you so much for spending so much time sharing your story, sharing your thoughts. If you’re listening and interested in sharing your story on the podcast, email me at [podcast@btr.org](https://www.btr.org/podcast/). I love listening to all of you and that’s how I’ve learned as much as I have throughout the years, talking to women like you, Paige and hearing your insights. So thank you so much. **Paige:** I appreciate you having me on here today. It’s very enlightening on my end, conversing with you about topics that I am passionate about. I appreciate it and the work [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org) does for this community. **Anne:** Thank you. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast **Tags:** gaslighting, Institutional Abuse --- ### [The Effects Of Psychological Abuse On A Woman - Christine's Story](https://www.btr.org/psychological-abuse-definition/) **Published:** July 4, 2023 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Psychological abuse is often so subtle it's almost impossible to recognize **Content:** Psychological abuse is so insidious victims often cannot identify that they are a victim. If your husband has used psychological abuse to hide his infidelity or other harmful behavior, here’s what you need to know. If you relate, take our [free psychological abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ![the Effects of Psychological Abuse in a Relationship](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/The-Effects-Of-Psychological-Abuse-In-A-Relationship.webp "the Effects of Psychological Abuse in a Relationship")## Psychological Abuse Definition & Symptoms Psychological abuse is a form of emotional and mental harm inflicted that is often so subtle it’s almost impossible to recognize. Tactics of psychological abuse include lying, manipulation, gaslighting to alter a woman’s sense of reality. Victims of psychological abuse may experience: - Brain fog - Sleep issues - Digestive issues - Chronic pain - Autoimmune disorders - Pelvic pain - Nightmares - Headaches - Poor immune function . . . and more. Psychological abuse effects victims in profound ways. ![Effects of Psychological Abuse in Marriage](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Effects-Of-Psychological-Abuse-In-Marriage.webp "Effects of Psychological Abuse in Marriage")## Psychological Abuse Takes A Toll On Our Mental Health Victims of psychological abuse in our community have reported mental health symptoms like, - Depression - Anxiety - Apathy - Eating disorders - Obsessive thoughts - Religious scrupulosity - Terror - Panic attacks Victims of psychological abuse face the societal obstacle of not having any bruises to show how deeply the abuse wounds them.If you’re a victim of psychological abuse, or wonder if you may be a victim of psychological abuse, please attend a [BTR.ORG Group Session](https://www.btr.org/group/) as soon as possible. You deserve validation and support as you begin your journey to safety. ![the Effects of Psychological Abuse on a Woman](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/The-Effects-Of-Psychological-Abuse-On-A-Woman.webp "the Effects of Psychological Abuse on a Woman")## Transcript: The Effects Of Psychological Abuse On A Woman **Anne:** I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re going to call her Christine. She’s a traveling nurse and mother of five children. Her children range in age from four to 23 years old. She’s been with this husband for seven years. And this is her third marriage. So we will learn about her story today. Welcome. **Christine:** Thank you. Thank you so much. I’m so glad to be here. **Anne:** We’re happy to have you. You’ve been married three times. Would you describe all three of your marriages as psychologically abusive? **Christine:** Um, sadly, yes, but I did not know that until going through this current marriage and all the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Resources. I did not realize they were abusive. **Anne:** For your first two, where you got a divorce, looking back now. Oh, that’s what the cause was, but you didn’t know until Betrayal Trauma Recovery. ![Psychological Abuse Effects](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Psychological-Abuse-Effects.webp "Psychological Abuse Effects")**Christine:** That is true. My first one, I was young, and he ended up abandoning us. I always thought I wasn’t enough, you know, to keep him happy and here. And then going through Betrayal Trauma Recovery, I realized, Oh my gosh, he was gaslighting the whole time. **Anne:** And gaslighting really is the number one indicator of psychological abuse. **Christine:** Yeah, this is real stuff. So Betrayal Trauma Recovery gave me the freedom to let that go. ## Second Marriage & Physical Abuse **Christine:** And then my second marriage, sadly, because I had children from my first marriage, and my second marriage, my husband, became physically abusive to them. So that, of course, I knew that one was abusive. I ended up leaving him and getting a divorce for the safety of my children. So about a year and a half into my relationship with my current husband, it was just a train wreck. I found out the week after I told him I was pregnant with our son, that he watches pornography every day, several times a day. It was just a total train wreck. I was crying and feeling desperate, searching on the internet to find some supportive words or something. And I came across the Betrayal Trauma Recovery listing on the website for gaslighting. It was the first time I heard the term gaslighting. ![Psychological Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Psychological-Abuse.webp "Psychological Abuse")And then it just blossomed from there. [Going to BTR.ORG and finding the books](https://www.btr.org/books/), reading through them, and listening to your podcasts. **Anne:** So you’re familiar with my voice. It’s so horrible [how infidelity does](https://www.btr.org/how-does-infidelity/ "how infidelity does") so much harm. **Christine:** Yes, you’ve been my best friend for so many years and you don’t even know. **Anne:** I’m so happy to hear that and so sorry to hear that at the same time. ## Impact On Health & Sleep **Christine:** One of the things I lost through this was the ability to sleep or rest at all. I would go to the doctor, and my blood pressure would be normal on the top, but the bottom number would be so high. And they’re like, your body’s just not relaxing, you know? And so I would listen to your podcast, and I would have to listen to them just to find sleep at night. Because the torment is so deep and so continuous. You never get rest from it, but your voice would bring me to a place where I could actually get some sleep. **Anne:** Psychological and [emotional abuse affects your bod](https://www.btr.org/emotional-abuse-affects-your-body/ "emotional abuse affects your bod")y so much. Oh, that is such good news. My ex-husband would disagree with you. Well, I’m so glad you’re here to share your story. We’re going to focus today on her third marriage. So her current marriage. Did you recognize his behaviors as psychological abuse at first? Can you talk about how you felt before you found the explicit material? **Christine:** When I first started seeing red flags, like we would be driving along, and he would make a cat call to some woman on the side of the road. Yeah, it’s one of my most painful memories. It was early on when we were dating, and we were taking my girls to the beach. We were driving by, and this woman bent over, and he yelled some obscenity at her. And I was just shocked. ![Why Psychological Abuse Robs You Of Your Identity](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ut2UYnQBl2E/maxresdefault.jpg) I was like frozen. I couldn’t even respond. It was so painful. It would be so hurtful and shocking. I would minimize it and think, Oh, it’s just because he’s been single so long. Yeah, I just totally excused it, but I did not recognize it as psychological abuse until I found Betrayal Trauma Recovery. ## Psychological Abuse Includes Rejection & Suspicions **Anne:** After you were married, did these types of behaviors continue toward you? Did you start seeing other things? **Christine:** Yes, so sadly, he got to the point where he would start rejecting me intimately. I had been trained growing up in the church that you always provide for your husband. And never give them a chance where they would not have their needs met, and all that stuff. That they teach that I’m realizing now is so wrong. So I made sure I was always there and providing for that. And then he started rejecting me. He would say, Oh, I only need to have it, maybe once every four days, and things like that. And it was like a total change from what I had known. I knew there was something wrong, and I could just feel it in my spirit. Like this isn’t right. And I had a feeling just from hearing sermons in church, like maybe there’s an issue with pornography here. So I started questioning him and questioning him. And finally, after I told him, we’re pregnant, we’re going to have a baby a week after that, he finally admitted to it. **Anne:** I was just curious as to what denomination taught that you needed to provide for his needs, like that was your job. **Christine:** Yeah, so you can hear that in many churches. I went to non-denominational churches, Baptist and Methodist, and you’ll hear that message across all three of those for sure. **Anne:** It’s a misogynistic trope everywhere. And you know what’s interesting? It’s not just religious. Because it’s also in secular places. It’s all over the place. In religious circles, it’s spiritual abuse and psychological abuse. ## Realizing The Truth About Abuse **Anne:** And then in non-religious places, like in a secular setting, it’s just plain old psychological abuse trying to coerce women by lying to them. Telling women that men have these needs and they’re like animals, so they have these needs that women need to provide for. [Pornography use is adultery. ](https://www.btr.org/counseling-for-cheating/ "Pornography use is adultery. ")Because if they don’t have these needs met, they’ll have to go somewhere else. **Christine:** I have learned that this is absolutely not true. And I am not responsible for my husband’s faithfulness. That’s his job, and between him and the Lord. But I did think he had been single for so long it would take time, but then I also thought I was being too sensitive. And I remember praying in the beginning, because many Christian books will tell you, like, your prayer should first be changed, Lord. So I was doing that, I was like, Lord, I don’t know why this is bothering me so badly. Please change me Father. Make me so that I’m not so sensitive, you know, and I prayed this with such fervency. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) **Anne:** Your goal to be changed to be not so sensitive, but like all women should be sensitive to that. **Christine:** Definitely, I’m so glad to find out that what felt wrong is actually wrong. It’s validating. And you know, for the entire year Betrayal Trauma Recovery felt like I was totally surrounded by protectors and advocates, and it gave me the freedom to find my own healing while I had those protectors. **Anne:** So before you found [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/), and besides the prayer, did you try anything else to try and establish safety and peace in your home? ## Failed Attempts To Fix The Marriage **Christine:** I tried everything. I spent thousands of dollars on new lingerie to try to keep things interesting for him. We also tried every possible church focused program. Most of them, in fact, all of them ended up being very damaging for me. And giving him wrong advice for sure. We also tried regular therapy. We did EMDR, and had psychological testing done. I found out that I had extreme PTSD. I tried everything I could find. **Anne:** Looking back on that, like trying every single thing you can find, what’s your feeling about that period now? Like all the searching that you were doing. **Christine:** I heard God’s voice in the beginning tell me that Betrayal Trauma Recovery was the right way to go, but I couldn’t wrap my head around it. And so I was like, Oh, okay, Lord, but let’s try what my insurance will cover. Okay, let’s try what’s free. And looking back, I wish I had skipped all of it because it was further traumatizing and lengthened the process. I’m going through this, coming up seven years now, and my body and my health have suffered so severely. Because of the length of time I sat in this psychological abuse. **Anne:** So were you aware of Betrayal Trauma Recovery like right from the beginning? But you thought like, hmm, let’s try something else? **Christine:** For years. So I found you, I think, after being with him a year and a half. And I would listen to all your podcasts. I read every book you recommended. [I did Betgrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/). ## Advice To Younger Self About Psychological Abuse **Christine:** Yes, I did that, and that was very healing. Those groups sessions were absolute lifesavers. I have no doubt that without Betrayal Trauma Recovery, I would not be alive right now. Because my depression and suicidal ideation were so severe during the darkest hours. And BTR was there to pull me out of it, to be my advocate and friend. **Anne:** If you could go back and talk to your younger self, what are the most important things you’ve learned? And what do you think you’d be like? I have to tell myself this, this is so important. **Christine:** If it was my younger self, I would tell myself the truth. I don’t know that I would have chosen marriage, to be honest. If I knew the truth, I think I wouldn’t marry. I would have stayed single and focused on my career. It wouldn’t have been something that I chose to participate in. As much as there are many joys, there’s so much possibility for danger. If I could go back to the beginning of this marriage, I would tell myself to run, get out, don’t stay, don’t try to work through it, just run. Do not place my future on my husband. I mean my [husband future faking ](/husband-future-faking/)all the time. I’m prepared either way. And I know that I will be okay either way. I know my exit plan. I’ve got a postnuptial and I’m okay. I’m ready either way. Victims don’t go into their love story any different than a non victim. You’re falling in love, and having all these special moments. You guys are connecting. At least you believe you’re connecting, even though the other side is fake connecting and lying. Like, our hearts are still intertwined with them. ## From Helping Him To Setting Boundaries **Christine:** This is still our love story, and you cannot imagine the things happening when they happen. It just feels like it’s unfathomable when it happens. **Anne:** It’s like your baseline is this particular reality, which is he’s a good guy, he loves me and cares about our family. And so wrapping your head around the reality that they don’t care about other people. Because they’re incapable of doing that. They just want what they want, and it’s really hard, right, to wrap your head around. **Christine:** Yeah, it is. I mean, especially being brought up as a little girl on Disney princess videos. There is no Disney princess video that ends like this. We’re not prepared. Then as humans, we’re prepped for flaws in humanity. You’re marrying an imperfect person. And especially as a believer, you’re going to be like, okay, I’m going to give him grace on this. I’m going to help him through it, because I’m not perfect either. And so I think as believers, we give them extra room. **Anne:** What are some concepts that you learned at Betrayal Trauma Recovery that have helped you protect yourself the most? **Christine:** I think for me it was boundaries, and my coach helped me with this one. Because even going through traditional therapy, I just thought, well, I’m just not a person who can have boundaries. I just can’t do it for some reason. But what I learned was that the concept of boundaries outside of Betrayal Trauma Recovery is totally different. So when I got to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, it’s like that little cartoon where Betrayal Trauma Recovery shows like putting boundaries is putting on your, what do you call it? Steel, steel toed boots. ![Marriage Boundaries List: When He Doesn't Respect Boundaries](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/9aa5bgEY3bY/maxresdefault.jpg) ## Boundaries & The Living Free Workshop **Christine:** Yeah, I finally got it once I was in Betrayal Trauma Recovery. And, my coach helped me take it really slow, and she took all the pressure off of it. And she was like, it’s okay boundaries are practice. If you don’t get it right, then you just do it again. Don’t put pressure on yourself, just keep practicing boundaries. **Anne:** Yeah, and [The Bettrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) teaches boundaries in a clear, actionable way. That is completely different than you’ll get anywhere else. And women are like, oh, I finally understand how to protect myself, yeah. **Christine:** Yeah, that helped me so much. When I got to BTR, I felt liberated, like oh my gosh, I don’t have to have sex if I don’t want to. And I can do that, validating myself and protecting myself, and it was really freeing. **Anne:** That is wonderful, because I have worked so hard to teach boundaries in a way that is actually doable for victims. And one that will actually protect them, because the other ways just don’t seem to do anything. They don’t seem to protect, and they’re impossible to do. **Christine:** They end up feeling like false threats. I always start telling myself, okay, how do I put on steel toed boots for this one? It was like my visual that made the boundaries possible for everything **Anne:** That’s cool Christine, to hear that worked for you and helped. Were there any other concepts that helped you that you felt like, oh Betrayal Trauma Recovery teaches this in such a way that it actually helps? ## Psychological Abuse Validation & Support From BTR.ORG **Christine:** Yeah, I think the most powerful thing for me with Betrayal Trauma Recovery was the validation. For other forms of therapy and all the other groups I attended. I would get the message, you’re being too sensitive or that’s a normal guy thing. But when I went to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, I could seriously get the pain validated. It seemed like having someone there who got me, it would give me enough joy, enough to make it through that day. And kind of take away that feeling of, am I crazy? Like I’m crazy in my head. That was so powerful for me. I don’t feel like people understand the depth of the sorrow, pain, and darkness. For me, I felt like a prisoner of war. It seemed like I was in a cold, dark, and damp cell. And I was crying, and nobody could hear me. All the incidents that would happen. It seemed like my husband would drag me out of my cell and beat me again. And the people I related to the most. were honestly other people who had gone through horrible forms of human suffering. I had peace and comfort listening to their stories, knowing that they had experienced human suffering in a painful way like I had. And I just feel like we’re going through this. It is so dark, demonic and evil. It’s absolutely soul crushing. **Anne:** It is, now that I’m feeling so much better. It doesn’t take me long to remember. I can like take myself back there pretty easily. Because it was so awful, and it’s long and there’s no end in sight. You know, going through it. It just feels so hopeless and awful. And everything about your life is affected by it. Everything is taken. ## Healing & Reclaiming Life **Christine:** You have nothing. Everything is taken from you. I know, like, you lose everything. You lose your family. I lost relationships with my children for a long time because of what was going on. I would drive around in a car with him and I would see other people living life. And I would feel like I was looking at life. out a window at something I couldn’t touch anymore. You know, other people are just happy and they’re they’re going about their lives. About a week ago, I went back to this same gas station where I had an incident, and realized I felt like part of life again. Like I have my life back again. It was so huge. Finally, feel joy and safety again. **Anne:** I remember feeling that way we went to an amusement park, and looking at the people, and they’re just walking by and feeling like they live in a different reality than I do. **Christine:** Yes, exactly. It’s like they have no clue. Look at them. They’re so happy. **Anne:** I don’t know what planet they’re from, but it’s not the same planet that I live on, right? **Christine:** Right, yeah, but it’s also helped me as a nurse. I mean, as horrible as this is to go through, I would never want anyone to go through this, but I remember not too long ago, about a month ago, I heard the cry of despair. There was a patient, and she had that cry, and I said, that’s despair. I know, I’ve been there. What’s going on? We need to help. You know what I mean? So **Anne:** That’s interesting. ## A PhD In Despair **Christine:** I feel like I’ve gotten my PhD in human suffering through this, yes. **Anne:** As we laugh when you say that, we both kind of chuckle a little bit like, Oh, we have our PhD in despair. It does feel like that. It’s not funny at all. All the women who have been through it, we have a little bit of dark sense of humor, I think. Yeah, it’s all you have. **Christine:** Yeah, I mean, it’s a major part of our lives. I will never forget this phase of, I think this is my desert phase in my life. **Anne:** Yeah, well, you are so strong and so brave. **Christine:** You know, I feel like the younger generation is starting to stand up more. I know that my daughters are standing up against psychological abuse. I feel like maybe we have hope. Maybe there’s going to be a change from us, speaking out maybe we’re giving our daughters for a better future. **Anne:** And our sons. **Christine:** Yes. **Anne:** My son is very, I’ll just say feminist for lack of a better word. I’m not sure what word to use, but he’s always noticing things. In fact, I was listening to a song. I’m not sure if I’ve talked about this on the podcast before, but I was like, Oh, I love this song. And he was like, Mom, this is a terrible song. It’s misogynistic and it’s abusive and they’re objectifying women and it’s not good. You should not be listening to it. And I said, I said, it’s a metaphor. It’s a metaphor. And he said, I don’t care what it is. It doesn’t matter if it’s a metaphor or not. Like you should not be listening to this. ## Healing Trauma From Psychological Abuse **Christine:** Oh, what a wonderful boy. **Anne:** That’s another thing that I’ve found, [healing from trauma](https://www.btr.org/individual/). I used to feel the weight of the entire world on my shoulders. So it was hard to go to a swimming pool, right? It was difficult to listen to the radio or to do everyday things, which were triggering. And now to chuckle at my son and think, oh, he’s so cute, but I like this song. So I’m going to listen to it, which I probably shouldn’t, by the way. I admit it. But I just do not feel the weight of the world on my shoulders. To be like, I don’t have to solve the world’s problems, and I don’t have to be on high alert all the time. I can enjoy this song. Despite its misogynistic overtones, which I shouldn’t, but what I’m trying to say is that’s like huge progress for me. **Christine:** Yeah, that’s a huge freedom. **Anne:** Years ago, there was no way. I would have been like I can’t watch TV, I can’t do anything. Because there are hints of this everywhere. And it should alarm us and overwhelm us, but we still need to go to the grocery store. So it makes it really, really, really hard. **Christine:** I am so glad to hear that you’re in that phase. Because I’m still healing and the world is still overwhelming. Although it’s, it’s getting slightly better. I still don’t watch TV, I still don’t listen to much music. I’m so glad to hear it all comes back. ## A Life Saving Podcast **Anne:** And that’s okay too. There’s evil stuff out there. I’m not trying to say, oh, you can enjoy the evil thing, no, no, no. That is not what I’m trying to say, but it’s just being able to function is nice. Everyone’s like, we used to like Anne, but then she said sometimes she listens to a Katy Perry song, heaven forbid. **Christine:** No, it’s the difference between watching TV and watching something come on, and you have the choice like, no, I don’t want to watch that. And it comes on, traumatizing you, and ruining the rest of your day. And you can’t stop shaking. Like there’s a difference. **Anne:** For people who are hesitant to listen because they’re like, Betrayal Trauma Recovery is like too extreme. For people who think this is the wrong way to go, what would you say to them? **Christine:** I think at first I thought maybe it was more pro-divorce too, but what I did was look through the podcast and see which one called out to me. And when it’s time for you to hear that podcast, it will be life saving to you. So just take it when you need it, take it as you need it. The Holy Spirit will lead you to what you need to hear. And you will be surprised and overwhelmed at how life saving these podcasts can and will be. **Anne:** Yeah. I’m not necessarily pro-divorce by any stretch. I am grateful for families, but I am 100% pro safety. And then the other issue is that after divorce. So many women continue to experience intense abuse. ## Betrayal Trauma Recovery, 100% Safe Help **Anne:** Divorce does not solve it. It can be a boundary that can keep you safer than other things. So many women use it as a boundary, but it’s not necessarily the solution. And that’s why domestic violence experts who I applaud make me nervous. Because they think the answer is like, just get divorced. And it’s like, no, if I get divorced, I’m going to still be abused and my kids are still going to be abused for years. So we need to find like a sustainable safety plan. **Christine:** And I found Betrayal Trauma Recovery was the only 100% safe program. Everything else had like, you’d be listening to it, and then a sting. It would hurt your heart. But when you listen to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, there’s no stings. It’s all safe. It feels safe. **Anne:** Everyone at BTR has been through it, yeah. Right? We’ve all known what it’s like to try and make those hard decisions. Try to think about like what the best thing is going to be. And it is not easy. **Christine:** It is so hard. I think the hardest thing I’ve ever been through in my life for sure. **Anne:** Oh, well, I’m so happy to get to know you more and I wish you the best on your journey to further healing. **Christine:** I just want to thank you so much for meeting with me. Like I said, this is so surreal for me. I’ve been listening to your voice for so many years, and I feel like God used you to keep me alive on so many nights and your kindred spirit with my heart. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Is Infidelity Abuse? What Most Therapists Won't Tell You](https://www.btr.org/is-infidelity-abuse/) **Published:** October 18, 2022 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Is infidelity abuse? Has he lied to you? Emotionally manipulated you? Here's how to know. **Content:** Is infidelity abuse? Has he lied to you? Emotionally manipulated you? Here’s how to know if his infidelity was emotionally abusive to you. To learn if you’re experiencing any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take our [free emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). [If you relate to any part of this episode and need support, check out our Daily Group Session schedule.](https://www.btr.org/group/) ## Transcript: Is Infidelity Abuse? **Anne:** It is humbling to welcome Dr. Omar Minwalla on today’s episode. Dr. Minwalla is a clinical sexologist and a licensed psychologist. We’re talking about, is infidelity abuse. Welcome Dr. Minwalla. You’re careful in how you decide to label and define things. So can you start with some definitions? **Dr. Minwalla:** Sure, let’s review how sex addiction is typically defined. Some professionals use compulsive sexual behavior. Some professionals use sex addiction. Either of those terms is used to describe a disorder related to behavior, where significant negative consequences occur. With addicts, I realized patterns of interpersonal abuse. Another way of saying that is having a secret sexual life or world while you’re in a relationship or family. Is in and of itself, a form of abuse. In many ways, it’s type of sociopathic behavior. And what I mean is it’s a selfish worldview where often the welfare of others is not respected. There’s often a lack of remorse or guilt. And there’s often an externalization of blame or responsibility. It’s in essence a long-term pattern of disregarding and violating the rights of others, particularly family members and your intimate partner. While sex addiction and compulsive sexual behavior focus on the behaviors themselves, they usually don’t have a clear diagnosis or labeling of the integrity, abuse, and relational conduct problems. **Anne:** I talk with many people who say abuse is going too far. It’s making it way more serious than it needs to be. And I’m thinking without the label of abuse, it does not correctly express the severity of the situation. **Dr. Minwalla:** You brought up a really good point, which is that some people feel it’s going too far. I trained as a clinical sexologist. ## Clinical Terminology & Deceptive Sexual Life as Abuse **Dr. Minwalla:** My training was in sexual offending and offenders. And one of the first things you learn in training is to use appropriate terms. And so, when there’s emotional abuse or psychological abuse. In terms of what we’re talking about, not using the word abuse is actually clinically inaccurate. I think many sex addiction professionals receive training from an addiction perspective. And don’t have much training in abuse or how to treat perpetrators of any kind. So I think there is a tendency to consider using the word abuse as somehow overreaching, shaming the addict or demonizing the addict. The minute somebody has a deceptive, compartmentalized sexual life, and they’re in an intimate relationship or in a family system. That, in and of itself, is a form of abuse. Is infidelity abuse? It’s abusive in many ways. First of all, to maintain a deceptive reality, one has to tell all sorts of lies and must, by nature, be dishonest in the relationship. So there are often patterns of lying or lying by omission. There are often partial truths. One of the most abusive aspects is that there’s often a lot of intentional manipulation of the partner’s reality. Which is sometimes referred to as gaslighting. It’s very damaging in terms of eroding and hurting her relationship with her gut instincts. ## Impact on Gut Instincts & Erosion of Relationship Integrity **Dr. Minwalla:** Usually somebody’s gut instincts can detect that there’s something going on, whether the person becomes conscious of it or not. Usually our gut instincts are somewhat aware. And in terms of gaslighting, if she confronts or brings something up. Then the abuser or the addict intentionally manipulates her away from that truth, and gets her to ignore her gut instincts. That’s damaging to her gut instincts, which is a very important survival mechanism that we all need. We all need a good relationship with our gut instincts. So, this intentional psychological manipulation of a partner over many years can be extremely damaging to her gut instinct and her ability to use that to make good decisions. Even just lying in a relationship is abusive. So if you have years and years of lying and maintaining a secret world while pretending to be honest in a relationship or in a family, that in and of itself is damaging. Whether the person knows about the secret sexual world or not. The fact that there is a deceptive reality is already eroding and hurting the possibility that integrity can even exist in the relationship or in the family. Integrity is a fundamental attribute of a healthy relationship or family. So if somebody chips away or erodes the integrity of that system. The chance for healthy integrity to even exist is corrupted. And then there are also other types of abuses. For example, is infidelity abuse? Having a secret sexual life diverts attention away from the relationship and away from the family. So there’s a lot of vital energy of nurture and care, love, time, financial resources, [emotional safety](/emotional-safety-examples/) resources, sexual attention that’s withdrawn from the relationship and going elsewhere. ## Is infidelity abuse? Blaming the Partner: Risks & Consequences **Dr. Minwalla:** There can also be a lot of blaming the partner sometimes explicitly. For example, if there’s problems in the relationship or problems with sexuality, the perpetrator might blame her. And make up reasons that she’s either overweight or controlling or unattractive, and those are just lies. The reason those things are happening is that there’s a secret sexual life going on. It’s also sometimes taking huge risks. For example, someone might not have safe sex, but then come home and have unsafe sex with their partner. So, there are all types of harms that a person potentially engages in, like legal consequences or STDs. Is infidelity abuse? There are many things about having a secret life that are abusive. **Anne:** There are, and having lived through it. That’s the best word I have found to describe it, and ignoring that or downplaying it is so dangerous to victims. At the very least, in all cases, he has abused his wife’s trust. It seems appropriate to include the word abuse and what the consequences of his abuse to her have been, like what she has suffered due to his behaviors. From my perspective, that’s the only way we can protect women and help them get to safety. **Dr. Minwalla:** Yeah, if you leave the word abuse out, the victims aren’t recognized, because the abuse isn’t being recognized. It is a serious omission. ## Therapists’ Role in Recognizing Abuse **Anne:** One of the things that an “expert” told me was that the women she sees don’t identify as abused. So when they come in, they wouldn’t describe themselves as abuse victims. And I mentioned to her that I didn’t see that either. For seven years, I was trying to face what was happening in my life head on, not understanding what was happening to me. And so I would not have described it that way at that time. What would you say to experts or therapists who say she’s not claiming abuse? She’s saying he’s a good guy, and he needs help to get his pornography problem under control. **Dr. Minwalla:** In my experience, is infidelity abuse? The minute I use the word abuse and explain it as emotional and psychological. And explain exactly what I mean by that. I have never had a partner or spouse refute that or push that away. Quite the opposite. They usually start becoming very emotional, and often break down and start crying. They feel extremely validated, and they resonate with that term. ## Normalization of Infidelity & Blaming the Relationship **Dr. Minwalla:** Is infidelity abuse? We as a society don’t view infidelity or cheating as domestic abuse at all. So we’re all in some ways indoctrinated into normalizing that type of abuse. And it is very difficult for people to immediately think of domestic abuse when we’re talking about as cheating or infidelity. That’s also a big explanation, I think, of why maybe even victims themselves are not used to seeing those types of behaviors or dynamics as domestic abuse. Because we’re all indoctrinated into a sort of perception of normalization. And part of that normalization is that when there is cheating or domestic abuse, people often blame the partner or at least blame the relationship. I’ve had many clinicians and even professionals that I respect immediately go into a, it takes two to tango model. That somehow, if there is infidelity or cheating or acting out, it must be a sign that there’s something going on in the relationship and blaming the relationship, which means also blaming the intimate partner or spouse. So there’s a lot of biases, there’s a lot of normalization of this type of abuse. It’s hard for everybody, professionals and victims, to get their head around the idea that this type of behavior is actually a form of domestic abuse. And this would include attitudes, ideas, beliefs, and behaviors that are related to being masculine or male or feminine or female. ## Is infidelity abuse? Gender Scripts, Entitlement & Objectification **Dr. Minwalla:** Because boys and men learn many unhealthy societal scripts about how to view women. How to view marriage, around sexual entitlement. That they’re entitled to get their needs met at the expense of human rights. And so even men who don’t see themselves necessarily as misogynists have often taken in a lot of these ideas passively just by being in society. What I found is that many men are taught, and many boys are taught. That one way to increase their gender esteem or their sense of masculinity is to conquer, objectify, and gain the attention of women or girls. We’re all familiar with notches on the bedposts. You know, the more notches you have, the more masculine you are, the more you’re gaining masculine self esteem. So part of what might be going on is that they temporarily inflate their masculine sense of self worth, not in a healthy way. Very few boys are taught that a secret sexual life is a form of abuse, and cheating is a form of domestic violence. Is infidelity abuse? Having a secret sexual world or life in a partnership or family is immediately a covert form of dominance and control. Because the abuser intentionally withheld information. That they know that if their partner or family members knew, they would take certain actions to protect themselves. And would respond in a way that advocates for their safety and well-being. ## Secret Life as Dominance & Control **Dr. Minwalla:** Is infidelity abuse? So intentionally withholding that type of information from somebody is already a form of dominance and control. It can give the abuser control and power by having a secret sexual life that the family, the wife or the partner doesn’t know about. Sometimes, just having that secret life plays a role in providing the abuser with control, power and dominance. And that might be part of the motivation to maintain, for many years even, a secret world. Sometimes it can be very explicit. I’ve had men tell me in anger that the ability to go and act out gave them a sense of retribution or balance of power. I started recognizing and researching trauma symptoms in the partner or spouse of sex addicts. And for many years, I felt like I was pushing uphill, an idea that wasn’t well received. And there was a lot of pushback and politics. Around 2011, I started to see a shift where more and more people recognized that partners indeed experience trauma. And so now I see a positive trend towards challenging the codependency models. And replacing those models with a trauma approach in dealing with the spouse of a sex addict. ## Shift Towards Trauma Approach & Critique of Codependency Models **Dr. Minwalla:** Is infidelity abuse? One concern I have is that among professionals, there seems to be a lack of rigorous understanding of what is actually so damaging about the co-sex addiction model. And why the that and codependency models are actually a form of victim blaming. And why so many partners have been harmed by that. In many ways, it parallels what abusers do defensively. One common scenario for abusers is that they want to quickly say they’ve learned what they’ve done is wrong. Let’s move on, and let’s put that behind us, and let’s not talk about it. Let’s not reconcile ourselves with what happened. And let’s bury that in the past and move on. Because there is a movement and a growing number of professionals who have challenged codependency and co-sex addiction. And now we are moving towards a trauma model. Some professionals are quick to jump onto that trend and quickly change words on their website. And say they use a trauma model when they haven’t done that hard work of looking in themselves. And what it was about them that contributed to the harm they may have caused patients. I think there’s a lack of depth and rigor in that transition for many professionals. That concerns me, primarily because there are still many partners who go for help. And they’re still actually hurt by elements of co-sex addiction. ## Is infidelity abuse? Victim Blaming in Clinical Settings **Dr. Minwalla:** They’re still having clinical experiences that feel like victim blaming or insensitivity. Is infidelity abuse? I think it’s because professionals say they use a trauma model without fully understanding what that really means. And then, because of that, they still perpetrate a lot of clinical mistakes, and a lot of the old model comes through still. And a lot of partners feel that many professionals say they use a trauma approach to treat partners. They are actually still using a codependency approach, a co-sex addiction approach, or a hybrid that still hurts partners. And so I think that’s a very serious concern. **Anne:** I have that same concern. One professional says he uses the trauma model and wrote recently about me and the things I say on this podcast. He said, “A very dangerous philosophy is spread around that women are merely victims.” And I was thinking, well, we are “merely victims” in this scenario. **Dr. Minwalla:** I think people, for many reasons, take a very negative stance towards the word victim. And I think it’s so important clinically to be clear with our language. When there is a violation, when there is abuse, then there is victimization. That’s important for victims to have that named. And for them to understand that’s different than an agenda of keeping somebody in a victimized state. Or somehow wanting them to own a label that’s stigmatizing. That they should feel burdened by for the rest of their life and prevent healing from happening. Like, that’s not at all what the word victim should mean. But, I feel like many professionals immediately become suspicious or nervous about using the word victim appropriately. ## Victim Identity & Healing **Dr. Minwalla:** I too have been accused of perpetually keeping partners or wanting to keep partners in a victimized state, which is absolutely not the case. **Anne:** Someone at a conference came up to me, and she said, “Your podcast was the first time I actually felt safe enough to define myself as a victim. And until I could do that, I didn’t know what to do to get better.” Because if you somehow think you’re part of the problem, you’re trying to be more loving, more forgiving, and dress sexier. And that’s not the situation. You’ll still be exposed to the abuse and trauma. **Dr. Minwalla:** I absolutely agree. Healing really comes from metabolizing reality. Is infidelity abuse? The reality is that there has often been significant abuse, so part of the healing has to be metabolizing that piece of reality. Even among the trend to recognize that partners experience trauma and treat them as trauma victims and survivors. There’s still, even among trauma professionals, a hesitation and misunderstanding on how to clearly name the abuse. And I think that over time, that’ll change, because they logically have to go hand in hand. If you’re looking at the trauma and understanding it, then the next question is, where is this trauma coming from and what’s causing it? And the minute you ask that question, you have to realize there’s abuse causing the trauma. It’s not just discovering that there’s a secret sexual world that causes trauma. That’s one type of trauma, but the abuse, such as gaslighting or victim blaming, or years and years of lying and deception, are causing a lot of trauma. ## Me Too Movement & Domestic Abuse **Dr. Minwalla:** Is infidelity abuse? And so I think over time people will be forced to reckon with the idea. That if we recognize trauma, we have to recognize the abuse, and they go hand in hand. The Me Too movement raised awareness of how men abuse power and see more clearly the role and pervasiveness of sexual entitlement. What we tend to focus on are the victims in the workplace, which is absolutely essential and legitimate. And that’s actually a great awakening for us to all have. But at the same time, when we expose these men, we’re talking about these workplace violations, I wish we would also consider the intimate partner at home and the children living with their trauma, pain, in silence. When we look at these cases of high profile men exposed now, whether it’s sexual assault or sexual harassment. Or other forms of inappropriate sexual behavior in the workplace. Most of these men also have wives, or partners, or children, or families. So this means these men engage in all these inappropriate and offending behaviors in the workplace. They’re also engaged in a deceptive compartmentalized sexual world that their families and children don’t know about. And that is, in and of itself, a form of abuse. ## Is infidelity abuse? Therapists’ Hesitation to Label Abuse **Dr. Minwalla:** Is infidelity abuse? At this time, I still see a lot of well-intentioned trauma therapists who are trying to treat partners and are refusing or timid about using the word abuse. And I don’t think that’s very congruent. **Anne:** We are kindred spirits. These same issues have been on my mind, and I’ve talked about them on this podcast. And I’m so grateful for you advocating for victims of abuse in these situations. **Dr. Minwalla:** Yes, I think we are kindred spirits and the agenda to get these ideas out more to help not only victims, but also society. So I’m on board with that agenda for sure. Like what is the impact of lies, gaslighting, cover stories, explanations that aren’t true about time and where someone was. They have gut instincts that conflict with what they see around them or see presented. That can be lies by omission and undetectable types of abuse that are subtle, and it can be years and years of straight up obvious overt lies, gaslighting and manipulations. Whether it’s subtle and hard to detect, or whether it’s pretty overt, pretty extreme, and easy to detect in terms of lies, gaslighting, or victim blaming, How they relate to other humans, period, and how that shapes the meaning of their life. I kind of describe it as drops of water on a rock. So if their husbands have lied, gaslit, and manipulated them. How does that shape somebody emotionally, their thought system, their sense of self and self-esteem. ## Detecting that Something’s Wrong **Dr. Minwalla:** Think about specifically the second brain or the enteric system. Neuroscience has identified neurons, brain cells, that literally go from your primary brain to your, what they call the second brain, which is in your gut, in a place called the enteric system. And part of what it may be responsible for is detecting threats in the environment and sending signals around survival to the primary brain. So it’s a delicate system of being able to detect something’s wrong and then send healthy signals so that the person can make survival attempts and respond accordingly. It’s like a little antenna, if you will, and a delicate system. If there’s a secret, probably automatically, the human being’s second brain will start to feel threat. It’s going to start to send messages, and now it’s going to be confusing for the brain. Because they’re getting signals, something’s wrong, something’s off, something doesn’t feel right. I feel like I’m somehow threatened. And the abuser pretends there’s nothing wrong. Is infidelity abuse? They create a situation that’s now confusing, and the primary brain now has to choose. Do I believe my second brain or do I believe my partner and what they’re presenting and putting someone into that forced choice will be damaging. If that happens for 20 years. That might be 20 years of a person ignoring their survival instincts. And now they have a damaged relationship with their second brain. And that might be way before discovery. ## Getting the opposite of what’s needed **Dr. Minwalla:** Is infidelity abuse? They’ve already had a very, very crippled relationship and an erosion with their second brain. Then take away their survival instincts and how to support and survive and navigate threats in the environment. It’s like one of the most important psychological functions we have. **Anne:** It’s so interesting if they reach out for help, maybe from a couples therapist, for example. Maybe contact clergy to get help, and they get the opposite of the thing they need, instead of saying, “your alarm system is going off.” They say, “Oh, he’s such a good guy. Let’s try to improve your communication.” So even from helping professionals, the injury persists and they’re injured more. But they don’t even know they’re injured. I can’t stress that enough, because people ask, “Why don’t women get out of abusive relationships?” One answer is, because they don’t know they’re in one. And they’re trying to get help, and the helping professionals aren’t helping them see the abuse. They’re basically enabling the abuse. **Dr. Minwalla:** Yes, I think you’re educating me. You referred to helping professionals, but are you saying there’s a common experience of turning to the clergy and getting certain types of feedback? **Anne:** Absolutely, our community is interfaith and inter paradigm. So we have agnostic people here and atheist victims. But I’d say the majority of our listeners are religious. And one of the reasons why they’re so traumatized is because they feel like their intuition, or some of them would call it the spirit. They go into clergy for help. And instead of getting help, they are getting abuse from their clergy. I’m not saying clergy is bad necessarily. They just don’t understand what is happening. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) ## Is infidelity abuse? Dangers in Gender based Help **Anne:** And so they give the classic religious answers like love, serve and forgive, which is the opposite of what someone would tell a woman if they felt like there was a threat. Is infidelity abuse? They don’t perceive the woman is actually in harm’s way. I’d say that’s across the board in every religion that we see. **Dr. Minwalla:** I can validate the dangerousness of that. I find it extremely disturbing what you’re saying. Because first of all, why are women turning to men to respond to deep questions about intimacy, fidelity, and sexuality? With all this unconscious, biased, harmful messaging that boys and men are socialized with and we all suffer for? And one of the ways we suffer are huge blind spots on sexual entitlement and violence towards girls and women. So just the institutional setup of women turning towards men as if they have something to offer them. I just don’t think it makes sense. It’s not very logical. It’s not scientifically sound. If you know much about how masculinity is developed and underdeveloped. And where there are real deficits in how masculinity manifests. I just really don’t see how that would be a safe or appropriate setup to have. In general, men advising women on issues that they probably have huge blind spots about. And then because of those blind spots, they are invariably going to be highly damaging and re-traumatizing to women. And probably perpetrate many types of sexist, misogynistic, and harmful scripts unconsciously, just because they’re the traditional scripts. Deceptive sexuality, it’s a specific type of abuse problem that we would put under the umbrella of gender based violence. Why? Because it’s a type of abuse where gender is going to be a very relevant factor. ## Likelihood Of Gendered pattern abuse **Dr. Minwalla:** If you’re a girl or woman, you’re probably going to be a victim. Most perpetrators, not all of course, but most perpetrators of having a secret sexual basement are men. So there’s something around gender where the men create the basements, and the women are the victims and finding them. That’s undisputable. And anyone who deals with these issues will see that gendered pattern, at least right now and traditionally. Is infidelity abuse? We live in a society where nobody calls this type of abuse abuse yet, right? So the idea of having a secret sexual basement doesn’t automatically register as an abuse problem in anyone’s mind. Including professionals, treatment professionals, clergy, nobody thinks a secret sexual basement equals abuse. So given that reality, why would we turn to the gender that has the problem? And knowing that all institutions and everyone around you don’t see it as abuse yet, why would you then think they have something to offer? I just don’t understand that as making any logical sense. So it’s not to disparage or put down anything related to the clergy or men, it’s just to shine a light on the way we’re socialized as men. That includes sexual entitlement. It’s a big reason why we don’t call it abuse. There’s an investment in not calling it abuse, because it’s an entitlement that wants to keep being entitled. So there’s a lot of investment in men who have the power, not naming or seeing this clearly as abuse, so that it can continue. And clergy or anyone, including myself, like who are we as men to get up on pedestals and start preaching about intimacy, sex, and intimate partner abuse? ## Humility is important when trying to help abuse victims **Dr. Minwalla:** I think most men should start in a place of humility, and that would include getting off a pedestal. **Anne:** Amen, is that what I say to that, amen, brother. **Dr. Minwalla:** Yeah, hallelujah, like who are these guys? I want to talk to them. Like who are you? There are so many questions that you’re somehow connected to God in a way that we’re not. That you can get on a pedestal and start interfering with people’s abuse situations based on what education? And that you’re so entitled to start preaching, fiddling, and intervening in people’s lives. What pedestal are you standing on? That’s my question to them. **Anne:** Yeah, it is a huge problem in every religious community. The thing that I find interesting is that they ask me that same question. Who are you to say these things? And you know what? My response is always I’m an abuse victim, and I represent thousands of abuse victims. To that, I get, well, you don’t know better because you’ve been traumatized. So my trauma has also rendered me illogical, apparently, in their minds. So I just stand up and say, I’m Anne. That’s who I am. I’m Anne. **Dr. Minwalla:** Yes. And it’s so important. It’s actually such a global human phenomenon, what you’re talking about, about religion, men, power, and the entitlement in that position. Is infidelity abuse? It’s very dangerous, toxic, yeah. On what basis? I don’t buy it. I will challenge that. I’ve had a lot of clergy that are patients, right? So let’s just pull the robes off and see the truth. None of these men deserve to be standing on any pedestal. ## Is infidelity abuse? Clergy & Misguided Forgiveness **Dr. Minwalla:** Any true helper is humble. Anyone who’s going to help trauma victims, abuse victims, has to be humble first and foremost. It’s a big part of my training. Humans heal themselves from trauma, therapists don’t. There’s humility in how much you can really intervene and do something. **Anne:** In light of this, abusers often feel entitled to receive, many of them from their clergy, immediate forgiveness. And have their victims no longer mention their trauma. They make at least a pretense of apologizing once someone discovers the lies . And this pretense to clergy is very believable. Clergy is like, great, he believes in Jesus. Is infidelity abuse? If an abuser claims he’s repentant or sorry, many times clergy will pressure the wife to forgive. **Dr. Minwalla:** It sounds like you said a lot of victims are told to forgive early in the process. Is that right, Anne? **Anne:** Yes, yes, they’re being told to forgive. They’re also being told to love and serve, because that is the solution. **Dr. Minwalla:** I have three things I’d like to maybe highlight in response to that. The first thing is, it’s not going to work, period. It’s not scientific. If someone has been in a car accident, and they have broken bones, and they’re hemorrhaging. And there are all kinds of injuries. To tell them to just get up, dust off, and keep walking isn’t going to work. So you can say it. You can try to demand it. You’re not going to have success, and the outcomes will be poor. ## Premature Forgiveness & Its Consequences **Dr. Minwalla:** So the idea of telling an abused spouse to just get over it isn’t going to work. You’re just setting yourself up for a disappointment and a lot of continued trauma and symptoms. Just like somebody in a car accident. Forgiveness is a very advanced, down the road stage of healing that may or may not ever happen. Really, the word doesn’t even need to be brought up for quite a while, since it’s so advanced. And any mention of it is premature, in terms of an expectation of this type of trauma and abuse. Is infidelity abuse? The other thing is, it’s a demonstration of continuing abusive psychology. When someone tells a victim to get over it and move on. What they’re really communicating is, I want you to collude with me in pretending it’s not going to happen again. They’re basically telling the victim, I don’t care enough about what I did. And implicitly, I don’t care enough about you, and I’m gonna hurt you again. That’s really the message. It’s a very revealing way to respond to a victim. Whether it’s the clergy saying that, or whoever’s saying that, it’s very revealing. And that’s how I would interpret it as, oh, okay, you want me to join you in skipping over that and pretending like you’re somehow better or the issue’s resolved. There is no resolution until the perpetrator resolves the issue he has. And then the third thing is. When you have this kind of advice for this type of victim, especially if you have, let’s say in your example, Anne, you’re talking about clergy and the church and institutions. ## Continued Domination by Helpers **Dr. Minwalla:** These are powerful institutions and people, often male. Is infidelity abuse? So it’s a continuation of dominance, control, power, patronizing, harmful and abusive. All those things. So, to go to help, and then have your helpers continue to dominate, patronize, and try to control you by telling you not to have your reactions. Instead, to suck it up and move on, forgive, or try to somehow manipulate how you’re supposed to be is already a harmful approach for the victim. So any type of feedback like that, whether it’s clergy, non-clergy, anyone who’s telling a victim to just move on and get over it is really perpetrating on them for all the reasons I just articulated. **Anne:** One of the things said, I would say more by clergy than in therapy. But it can happen in therapy. A man can say the victim’s anger, like, that’s the problem. Because he’s repentant apparently, because he said he’s repentant and said he’s never going to do it again. So why is she so angry about it? So they’re actually more concerned with her anger and her, you know, perceived hate of him or whatever. Than they are about the fact that she was victimized. I’ve been thinking about society too, and the way they demonize women by saying she was angry. Like these angry women or femi-nazis whatever word they use to disenfranchise female anger. And I want women to embrace it. I’m not trying to say they have to feel angry, but it’s such a normal, healthy reaction to being victimized. I’m just so confused why society has decided to disenfranchise women in this way. ## Is infidelity abuse? Victim’s Anger & Society’s Response **Dr. Minwalla:** Betrayal is high octane anger inducing, just as a normal human reaction. You see it all the time. Victims of deceptive sexuality experience, rage and anger. It’s absolutely normal and should be expected. **Anne:** Yeah, I think one of the reasons abusive men have decided that female anger is a problem is that our anger helps us take action. So, abusive men disenfranchise our anger with the intent to stop us from taking action. **Dr. Minwalla:** Yes, there’s a reason the anger’s there. Anger can fuel so many positive, health promoting responses. Everything you’re saying is correct. Anger is useful, normal and expected. Now, whenever you have a dominant group that has power over another group. Is infidelity abuse? You often have abuse and forms of harm from the dominant group towards the less powerful group. Any time in that situation, the victim expresses justified rage, or anger is often used to discredit the victim. Their reactions to the abuse are used to silence and pathologize, and deflect and turn things around. In these situations, let’s say in the clergy, where the abuser’s repentant. And the feedback is, Hey, they’re looking repentant. What’s your problem? You know, making the anger in the victim, the problem. In an abuse situation, right? It’s the behavior, not the words that has any relevance. ## Repentance & Behavioral Change **Dr. Minwalla:** So, if the abuser says, I repent, the real response should be, let’s see that in your actions. Humility is remorse demonstrated through behavior. And that’s the kind of advice that would be appropriate: you’re repentant, let’s see your remorse in your actions for six months, and then we’ll meet again. **Anne:** Yeah, or even you’re repentant. Let’s see how your victim is feeling. **Dr. Minwalla:** in six months based on your actions and how you’ve been treating her, right. So those would be the kind of normal, appropriate, helpful responses. Not, look, he’s repentant. What’s your problem? **Anne:** Is infidelity abuse? Yeah, the other issue is clergy cannot perceive, and some therapists cannot perceive people lie to them. And groom them, and they can’t perceive this is an act to manipulate the clergy too. **Dr. Minwalla:** Oh, so these guys don’t have any training in how to be a clergy person and deal with just normal human life? Isn’t that what they’re supposed to do? **Anne:** You would think, but no. We’ve talked to women of all different faiths. When he goes in and says, I feel bad, they literally don’t have on their radar, wait a minute, this is all an act. So that’s another issue, they don’t realize they’re dealing with a wolf in sheep’s clothing. They think they’re dealing with someone who was kind of a wolf, but now look at him. He’s a sheep. Come on, the woman is freaked out and scared, and also like no, no, no. You don’t understand, but it seems like clergy tend to believe the man over the woman. They just can’t perceive they’re being lied to or being deceived. ## Deception in Religious Counseling **Dr. Minwalla:** So let’s just think logically. Somebody has a deceptive compartmentalized sexual reality. Is infidelity abuse? So this problem is really about deception. So now you’re going to automatically believe someone coming to you for lying? **Anne:** That is exactly what’s happening. **Dr. Minwalla:** That doesn’t sound logical to me. You would assume okay, your problem’s lying, then maybe I should be at least somewhat aware that lying might be happening now. Or there might be certain shading of the truth or manipulation right now. So that would be kind of clergy 101. **Anne:** Yeah, I hear a lot of stories where the women will say to me, “He met with his pastor, and the pastor told him this.” But her husband might be lying to her about what the pastor said. So a lot of the information that we get is what the addict or abuser says to his victim about what happened in that meeting. So we also don’t know that the pastor did say those awful things. It could be that the pastor didn’t say anything like that, but the abuser decided, Hey, this is how I can get some power here. I think that’s the heart of it. In these institutions, that’s how they get power, is by being “righteous.” So that’s another level of deception right there. They’re showing up at church and giving talks or doing service to maintain that power, which is super, super scary. I think the religious dudes are like super predators. For religious women, like me, who have been taught through our religion. That part of the way to connect with God and hear God’s voice is by getting counsel from clergy. ## Is infidelity abuse? Religious Scripts & Complex Trauma **Anne:** So to say, no, I can pray and get answers directly from God. I have the power to do that. I don’t need this man to help me out is really important. **Dr. Minwalla:** Yeah, and I think what you’re highlighting, and it’s a challenging topic. Which is how religion can be a form of complex trauma and abuse. And now it’s created a whole set of complicated dynamics, Is infidelity abuse? Where healing requires seeing abuse clearly and emancipating yourself from it. Which ultimately will probably include seeing the abuse of your religion on yourself and emancipating yourself from those parts. And they’re probably just going together. **Anne:** Exactly, yeah. So for somebody like me, I’m Christian and devout in my religion, but also feminist. I think the way this is interpreted, or the way people are doing it, is not what Christ intended. So I just form my own ways of interpreting it to live in these two spaces at the same time. I look at Christ and I’m like, he loved women. He was like, always concerned about women. He always made sure he was caring for them. And the first person that saw him after his resurrection was a woman. To me, I can read the scriptures and interpret them from a feminist perspective . **Dr. Minwalla:** Exactly, I appreciate you sharing that. You have a religious identity in a part of you that’s meaningful, and you have a feminist ideology in a part of you that’s extremely meaningful. And you’re not willing to choose one or the other. You’re going to find a resolution and do the work that allows you to be full in, all of you. ## Becoming Whole Human Beings **Dr. Minwalla:** Wonderful, right? We talk a lot about intersection these days, race, ethnicity, religion, culture, class, you could even put trauma history, right? How did these all intersect, and how do we become whole human beings? And none of us have to deny who we are. The world can make room for who we are. **Anne:** After talking about, is infidelity abuse? At the end of our interview, we started chatting about stuff. I started talking about how I don’t want to get married again. My ex was arrested in 2015. The divorce was final in 2017 and I’ve only been on maybe three or four dates since then. And I’m not really interested in it. I’m also not interested in sex right now. It’s just not very interesting to me. So, Omar and I just kind of chatted a bunch. And we’ll just jump right into where I’m talking about how I don’t care if I never have sex again. If I never have it, that’s fine. I’m okay with that because of the values I’m choosing. **Dr. Minwalla:** I think your awareness is healthy, too. There’s a big, large, dominant part of you, overall umbrella that’s fine, adjusted and happy. But you’re also acknowledging just a part of you, right, the sexual part, and that is meaningful to you too. And that’s the part that I think is making you feel whole. That seems healthy. It’s just an acknowledgement that there’s a real choice and navigation that ultimately is fulfilling for you. And sex doesn’t have to be part of that. ## Liberation from Marriage Expectations **Dr. Minwalla:** And that’s some of the scripting we have to get out of, all these mandates and supposed tos around sex. We talk about gender pathology. Is infidelity abuse? There’s a whole sexual layer there that we never talked about, but there’s a lot of pathology. You could put that religious scripting, shaping someone’s ideas of sex, as a form of complex trauma. **Anne:** Well, that’s interesting, because from my faith tradition, we’re Christian, like we actually believe in a Heavenly Father and a Heavenly Mother. And together they are God. So it’s easy for me in my faith to be like, Oh yeah, God is male and female. So because of that, on earth you’re supposed to find that eternal companion, and you’re supposed to marry them. And you marry them in the temple, and that is like the ideal situation. So if you’re missing your eternal companion here on Earth, then, you know, it’s super sad for you. And so for me, it’s been so liberating to be like, I actually want that. Like I want an “eternal companion.” That sounds super cool, but I don’t care if I have that person in this life. This life is super short, and we’re all just going to die. So who the heck cares? So in my faith, I’m like the weird single lady who doesn’t want to get married. And in my faith, that’s weird. Like everyone should want to get married, because that’s the thing to do. But I think that’s similar with all faiths. Now I wear it as a badge of honor, and I’m so excited to tell people I’m divorced. I love telling people I’m single. ## Is infidelity abuse? Microaggressions & Female Autonomy **Anne:** It’s something that I feel so confident and liberated about. And those types of faith scripting, you’re not a whole person if you’re not married. That’s also what keeps so many victims from getting divorced, in all faiths. Because they feel like, shoot, if I have to get divorced, then who am I? What am I? Because you’re a broken person if you’re divorced or something’s wrong with you. So lately when any well meaning nice person in Utah, where I live says, Oh, you’re so cute. Why aren’t you married? I literally almost yell at them, but in a nice way. And say, because I don’t want to be. I don’t know if that’s a trauma response or if I’m just enjoying shocking people. **Dr. Minwalla:** Is infidelity abuse? Well, one form of complex trauma to our sexuality is this extreme pressure, coercion, and social mandate to be married or else. Forcing a human being into something that’s so life altering against their true will by grooming them and pressuring them. That’s a form of complex trauma, and it’s extremely damaging to pressure them from day one. That if you don’t, something’s wrong with you and you’re not whole is such a crippling, abusive, toxic psychology to impart on a child. **Anne:** So this thing happened to me and I’ve been trying to define it and maybe you can help. ## Historical Context of Marriage **Anne:** So two men in one day said, you’re so cute. Why are you single? And it annoyed me. But the more I thought about it, the more I thought that was a microaggression, but I can’t figure out why. Because to me it felt like my cuteness didn’t count for itself, it had to belong to someone else or it didn’t count. That’s been rattling around in my head. Like, I don’t owe my cuteness to a man. Can’t it just be for myself? I’ve been trying to formulate why it would be a microaggression, and I haven’t been able to put my finger on it. **Dr. Minwalla:** The word owned and cuteness is only legitimate if a man owns it. Let’s go to the truth and reality about marriage. And how it actually developed in the human race, which is your wife is property. You own another human for sex, that’s entitlement. It’s part of the institution of marriage. It’s actually the definition of marriage, which is the entitlement to own another human being. So, now you fast forward, and now you have guys making these comments with the same assumption, which goes all the way back to that. And that’s why it would be a microaggression, because you’re not anyone until you’re owned by a man and now you’re legitimate. And any attractiveness or being cute is for that purpose. It’s awful, toxic, and disgusting that implication. ## Conscious Choices & Social Pressure **Dr. Minwalla:** I’m really for people making conscious, healthy choices and being informed. And if you are informed and everything’s laid out, and you choose something, I’m all for you. However, I’m against socializing and forcing people into the idea that they should be married or else. I have done a study, a word of mouth study, always asking guys for years, right, two questions. Why did you get married? Why did you have kids? First of all, the answers are usually always the same. It’s not a wide range of answers. It’s almost like 95 percent of the answers are the same answer. Guess what the answers are. **Anne:** Is it because I was supposed to? **Dr. Minwalla:** Nope, either I-oh-oh, silence or a shoulder shrug. **Anne:** Wow. **Dr. Minwalla:** There’s no thought, reason, or voice attached to marrying or having kids. That’s how deep and unconscious just following the script is. **Anne:** That is super scary. It reminds me of my across the street neighbor. She wanted to serve a mission for our church. And her boyfriend at the time was like, well, I’m going to marry in the next couple of months. So if you go on a mission, I’ll just have to marry someone else. So she stayed home and married him. And I thought, basically, he said, I don’t care about you at all. All I care about is marrying for whatever reason. And it doesn’t matter who to. That story was so crazy, alarming to me. **Dr. Minwalla:** You’re an interchangeable object. Just like a wife traditionally is. It’s a piece of property, so I’ll just buy a new one. ## Is infidelity abuse? Following Society’s script **Anne:** Yeah, yeah, it was so alarming to me. I was like, oh, how did you guys get engaged? She told that story to me. But she wasn’t super ashamed of it or anything. She was like, oh yeah, it just went down like that. And so then we married, and now they have six kids. **Dr. Minwalla:** Yeah, because she’s following the script unconsciously and they’re romanticizing it. And it’s really a symptom of abuse. **Anne:** Yeah, it was an alarming story. Is infidelity abuse? I’m 100 percent sure she’s an abuse victim, but she doesn’t know! She doesn’t know. I see it everywhere now, and it freaks me out. It takes me a lot to not just walk up and say, do you know you’re being abused? **Dr. Minwalla:** But this is so relevant. Because when you force someone to marry, or force them to have children, it will cause huge amounts of rage. And then we ask ourselves, why so mad? Well, wouldn’t you be mad if someone forced you into marriage and into having kids. And you didn’t even think about it? It wasn’t a choice? Yeah, it all gets absorbed. Still to this day, right? If you’re single, what’s wrong with you? That’s so insulting, right? So, it’s a very important area that you’re in. There are so many women in religion fighting exactly your battle. And your work is extremely important and needed. I’m such a big supporter of what you’re doing. ## Emancipation from abuse is healthy **Dr. Minwalla:** Emancipation from abuse is healthy, it’s the definition. of psychological health. So when you get confused in all the trauma and don’t know which way to go, just move towards truth and reality. Those are your best friends. Emancipating yourself from harm and abuse is always a healthy trajectory. **Anne:** It was such a wonderful conversation. I’m so grateful for his insights about, is infidelity abuse. You know, when people come on the podcast, we all have different opinions and ways of approaching things. And I appreciate how everyone comes to it from their own experience. Even though we both see the world in maybe some different ways, I appreciate Dr. Minwalla. So I’m so glad that he was able to join me. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast, Related Posts **Tags:** emotional abuse --- ### [Find Your Voice - How To Heal After Emotional Abuse](https://www.btr.org/find-your-voice-after-emotional-abuse/) **Published:** October 4, 2022 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Emotional abuse makes us feel small. You CAN find your voice and heal from emotional abuse. **Content:** Emotional abuse and intimate betrayal can make you feel small. What does it mean to find your voice? To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take this [free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ![How to Find Your Voice After Trauma](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Find-Your-Voice-After-Trauma.webp "How to Find Your Voice After Trauma")## How Can I Find My Voice When I’m Experiencing Emotional Abuse & Intimate Betrayal? Finding your voice does not mean confronting your abuser. In fact, that can be dangerous for you. Instead, find your voice by: - Journaling about your experiences - Sharing your story with a trusted friend - Attending a [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session](https://www.btr.org/group/) - Listening to [The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast](https://www.btr.org/podcast/) to hear other stories of betrayal trauma & emotional abuse - Taking a self-defense course However you choose to find your voice, know that your story is important. Your experiences are real, and we believe you. ![Finding Your Voice Quotes](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Finding-Your-Voice-Quotes.webp "Finding Your Voice Quotes")## Transcript: Find Your Voice After Emotional Abuse **Anne:** I have Allyson on the podcast today. She’s an advocate for women and a believer in self-defense. She has a black belt in traditional TaeKwonDo and helps teach women’s self-defense classes to help them find their voice and meaning after abuse. Welcome, Allyson. **Allyson:** Oh, thank you. It’s good to be here. **Anne:** So, what does “find your voice” mean to you? **Allyson:** It was definitely a long time coming. I came from a home of abuse. I’ve had experiences of men following me, pestering me. I’m short and tiny and an easy target. It was important to me not to be a target anymore. I decided to attend martial arts classes. I wanted to learn technique, because when a guy is six feet plus, he’s got a lot of mass behind him. And if you know what you’re doing, technique wins. Even with the enormous size difference. You can get out, escape, defend yourself. And of course, you always feel dumb going in there. You know, people are looking at me a little funny, and you’re like, you want me to do what? You want me to, are you sure? I went from scared to do anything. To where I am now today, I’m teaching women how to defend themselves. **Anne:** Making meaning in finding our voices takes time and effort. We can do it in various ways. I started podcasting, I garden. ![Where Prayers Find Their Voice](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Where-Prayers-Find-Their-Voice.webp "Where Prayers Find Their Voice")## Empowerment Through Self-Defense **Anne:** How did self-defense empower you to find your voice to recover from emotiona abuse? I’m guessing they taught you ways of using your voice to defend yourself. **Allyson:** My biggest one is don’t be afraid to turn around and face your attacker. Whoever is tailing you, the easiest way to get out of something without him touching you is to face him eye to eye. For example, I was out grocery shopping. This guy just started following me with an empty cart. And at first I was like, okay, maybe you just need one item, but no, he just kept on following me. He wasn’t picking up vegetables, nothing. He was intently and closely following me. And of course, my hackles rose. I turned around. I looked him straight in the eye and I was like, do you need something? Can I help you? And that’s all it took. He left his cart and ran. I have friends who worked at the prison, and he’s like, honestly, if women knew the power they have by making eye contact, like, I’m not going to put up with this. ![Mom Find Your Voice](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/mom-find-your-voice.webp "Mom Find Your Voice")These men want an easy target. They want somebody who’s not going to scream, the person who’s going to freeze. As soon as you put up, who are you? What is your name? What do you want? And it’s the tone of your voice. You notice my voice changed when I said that? I wasn’t nice to this guy. It was either you tell me what you want or you beat it. So that right there is power. Do not think you are powerless. ## An Example Of How To Find Your Voice **Anne:** If we can prepare our daughters and also train ourselves now that we know more, what to expect. When I was young, my mom told me, if you’re ever being raped, look him straight in the eye and say loudly and clearly, this is rape and I will prosecute. I see you and I know what you’re doing. And I’ve taught my daughter that from a very young age. I’ve also taught all my kids basic self-defense. An abusive man feels entitled to your attention, and your body. And it’s shocking. Sometimes we don’t want people to talk to us, and it’s okay for us to say, no, thank you, and just move on. So I have a policy in my home that I do not open the door for anyone I do not know, like a door to door salesman. And I mentioned that I loved gardening. One day, I was in my front yard. One of these sales people walked up to me and started talking to me. I interrupted him after he said maybe one word and said, I’m not interested. Please go away immediately. I didn’t even listen to him for a second. ![How to Find My Own Voice](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Find-My-Own-Voice.webp "How to Find My Own Voice")Instead of going away immediately, he started asking me questions. Like, oh, what are you doing? How long have you … And I said, stop talking. I’ve told you, I don’t want to talk to you. Go away, then he actually continued to try to talk to me. I stopped him again and said, you’re still talking and you’re on my property. You need to leave now. Would you like me to call the police? His entitlement was shocking. ## Women Don’t Owe Abusive Men Anything **Anne:** He walked away. Like I was the crazy one, even though I had told him three times, I did not want to talk to him, and he needed to go away. I was like, no, you are the crazy one, mister. Here are the facts: Women don’t owe abusive men anything. We don’t owe them a conversation. This is important to understand when you are wondering [how do I set boundaries?](https://www.btr.org/boundaries-in-marriage/ "how do I set boundaries?") **Allyson:** Recently, I felt that it is my empowerment as a female and mother to tell my boys: If a girl says no, it is your job to walk away and forget about it, move on. It’s her right to say no. And of course, they’re looking at me going, okay, duh. She says, no. I’m not going to keep pestering her. I’m like, good. Don’t, because you have that right to say no, everybody has that right. **Anne:** Now, due to the [Living Free strategies](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/), I can talk to them because he doesn’t take up any space in my head anymore. ![Finding Your Voice As a Woman](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Finding-Your-Voice-As-A-Woman.webp "Finding Your Voice As a Woman")And the Living Free strategies protect my mind and emotions from everything he does now. It’s a miracle, I’m so grateful. I discovered those strategies because I lived in fear for so long. I experienced the long term affects of emotional abuse. During that time, when I could not talk to him in person ever, ever, ever. I appreciated the mediator of *Our Family Wizard*. I still appreciate it. And I show people how to use it in [Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). ## Find Your Voice After Abuse: The Importance Of Having A Mediator **Allyson:** It is fantastic to have a mediator, always to have a mediator, whether it’s your lawyer, a family member, a friend, somebody who’s got the balls to translate for you and do what needs to be done. Because the most intimidating thing ever is to face your harasser and have the presence of mind to be like, oh, I know exactly what I want to say to you. I know very few women who can do that, very few. So I still haven’t approached my abuser. I know in my head exactly what I’d want to say, but abusers rationalize like crazy. And then you go away thinking, wait a sec, am I a crazy one? Wait, I thought I wasn’t crazy, but I’m starting to think I’m crazy. Maybe I just imagined this. So, put that barrier between you and them. And this took many years of training for me, because I grew up abused. So it was difficult for me to find my voice or even say anything. ![We Stand UP Against All Kinds Of Abuse!](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/WzKnamgNwWQ/maxresdefault.jpg) And it was, when I started martial arts training. They are there to give you that confidence, to give you that feeling like I can do anything. So find your voice and use it. Whatever you do, do not freeze. **Anne:** Yeah. In the moment, that’s a trauma response. It’s our natural way of resisting the abuse. And once you figure out what’s going on, take action. And that’s why I teach women’s safety strategies in [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). How to create those protective barriers between you and the abuser. So finding your voice can be more than verbally confronting an abuser. It can mean that we finally speak to safe people. We can [learn from podcasts](/how-do-you-listen-to-a-podcast/) or listening to others who’ve been betrayed for comfort ## Support & Strategies To Take Action **Anne:** We can attend [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/group/), and that we reach out for support from people who understand. Those who have been through it know how important it is to find your voice. And using strategy to determine what their character is, because communication often puts you in more danger. They’re so good at manipulating. Like what you said before, they’re so good at rationalizing. It may be dangerous to talk to them. So finding your voice might mean learning strategies and taking action. And you can learn all about those strategies in [The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). You have to be safe before you can begin the healing. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) Allyson, with your history of abuse, decided to do martial arts, which helped find your voice. Martial arts sounds like an awesome option for women. **Allyson:** I highly recommend martial arts to everybody. I think it’s an essential social skill. It’s very important. **Anne:** Yeah, whatever works, right? Whatever works for you is the right thing to do. Allyson, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. **Allyson:** Thanks for having me. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [7 Startling Reasons Men Feel Entitled to Women's Bodies - Rachel's Story](https://www.btr.org/male-entitlement-women-bodies/) **Published:** August 29, 2023 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** What causes male entitlement to women's bodies? **Content:** Male entitlement to women’s bodies is a driving force behind emotional & psychological abuse, sexual coercion, domestic abuse, sexual violence, and homicide. Here’s what you need to know. Rachel Moran, a former trafficking victim, shares her story below. For women who are currently in a relationship, if you’re feeling used and unseen, consider taking our[ free emotional abuse quiz](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). To see if you’re experiencing any of these types of emotional abuse (including coercion). ![Signs of Male Entitlement](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Signs-Of-Male-Entitlement.webp "Signs of Male Entitlement")## Why Do Men Feel Entitled to Women’s Bodies? Navigating the complex maze of societal expectations and gender dynamics, women often find themselves at the mercy of a perplexing phenomenon—male entitlement towards their bodies. It’s a pervasive issue that manifests itself in various ways, from thinking women “owe” them. This list explores seven compelling factors that contribute to male entitlement to women’s bodies. #### 1. Patriarchy is a System of Male Entitlement Patriarchy is an established framework where men have privilege and women don’t. Historically, male experience has been the default, and women have been objectified. Their roles reduced to caregiver or sexual object. Due to their societal status, men grow up with a sense of entitlement toward many aspects of life, including women’s bodies. The belief in their innate right to women’s attention, affection, and bodies can begin early. ![What Does Male Entitlement Mean](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/What-Does-Male-Entitlement-Mean.webp "What Does Male Entitlement Mean")#### 2. Cultural Norms Perpetuate Male Entitlement to Women’s Bodies The media plays a significant role in perpetrating gender stereotypes and norms, often depicting women’s bodies as objects for male consumption or that women are the supporting cast. From advertising that commodifies women to movies and songs that glorify persistent pursuit of women despite their lack of interest. The cultural narrative loads messages that reinforce the idea that “real men” take control. #### 3. Ignorance Isn’t Bliss (For Women) An educational gap in teaching about healthy relationships and truly mutual intimacy further exacerbates the problem. Many education systems worldwide lack a comprehensive approach to relationship and sex education. Which includes the nuanced aspects of respecting one another’s autonomy. Without this knowledge, it is easy for men (and women) to believe men are entitled to women’s bodies in various ways. ![Men Feel Entitled to Women's Bodies](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Men-Feel-Entitled-to-Womens-Bodies.webp "Men Feel Entitled to Womens Bodies")#### 4. Religious Beliefs Support Male Entitlement To Women’s Bodies Religious and traditional values often “assign” women the task of being the moral compass for men, as if men aren’t capable of making ethical, healthy decisions. These beliefs can simultaneously place the onus of “morality”, domestic labor, childcare, and “meeting a man’s physical needs” the duty of a “righteous” woman. While also stripping her of equal value and decision-making power. This can lead to a paradox where, on the one hand, women are seemingly “exalted.” And on the other hand, a convenient scapegoat when men’s desires or behaviors spiral out of control. People manipulate these beliefs to justify male entitlement to women’s bodies. #### 5. Male Entitlement Codified Through Legal and Political Structures The failure of legal systems to adequately protect women from emotional and psychological abuse, including coercion and coercive control reinforces female entitlement to women’s bodies. In some instances, laws meant to protect women end up tools of oppression. For example, when rape laws require evidence of physical resistance, it implies that without this resistance, the intercourse was mutual. Or that all that was required was a “yes”, without concern for how that yes was obtained. ![Men Feel Entitled to Women](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Men-Feel-Entitled-to-Women.webp "Men Feel Entitled to Women")#### 6. Socio-Economic Factors That Support Male Entitlement When men are the primary earners, there can be a belief that their financial contributions translate into ownership, not only of their wife, but also of her body. This is particularly evident in cases where women are financially dependent on men and fear the consequences of asserting their rights. The resulting power imbalance exploits and justifies men’s sense of ownership and control over women, including their physical autonomy. #### 7. Lack of Empathy is The Root Cause of Male Entitlement Arguably, the most pernicious aspect of male entitlement is its normalization and acceptance within male social circles. Many men fail to recognize the privileges they hold and the ways in which their behavior contributes to a culture of male entitlement. Instead, there’s often a reluctance to hold each other accountable for actions that violate women’s rights and boundaries. Without empathy, it’s challenging to change the societal narrative that enables and excuses male entitlement. Men must begin to stand up and actively work against these norms to create a culture of respect and equality. ## Why Do Men Feel Entitled to Women & Girls? Rachel and Anne work through the origins of male entitlement. It’s important to understand that male entitlement isn’t biological – *there is hope*. Just as boys learn to feel ownership over women’s bodies, they can learn to be respectful, caring, and observant of autonomy. If you need live support, [attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session](https://www.btr.org/group/). ![Reasons Men Feel Entitled to Women's Bodies](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Reasons-Men-Feel-Entitled-to-Womens-Bodies.webp "Reasons Men Feel Entitled to Womens Bodies")## Transcript: 7 Startling Reasons Men Feel Entitled To Women’s Bodies **Anne:** I have Rachel Moran on today’s episode. She is pioneering international progress in policy and collaborative advocacy to actualize robust solutions to exploitation. Jane Fonda endorsed her work, U.S. president, Jimmy Carter, Gloria Steinem, and many others. Prior to joining the International Center on Exploitation, Rachel founded and led Space International, an international organization formed giving voice to women who have survived the abusive reality of prostitution. She’s also the author of the bestselling book, *Paid For: My Journey Through Prostitution*, we are so excited to have you on. Thank you so much for your time, Rachel. **Rachel Moran:** Thanks so much for having me. **Anne:** Rachel, we’re going to talk today about prostitution and how that intersects with trafficking. You have so much experience on this issue. And I appreciate everything that you’ve done to help women survivors all over the world. So let’s start with the fundamental systemic problem of male entitlement to women’s bodies. ![Where Does Male Entitlement Come From](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Where-Does-Male-Entitlement-Come-From.webp "Where Does Male Entitlement Come From")**Rachel Moran:** Male entitlement has existed across time, but it’s changed shape and intensity. In the last 20, 25 years, since we’ve had the internet, social media, all these different mechanisms. It’s why your [husband is constantly on his phone](https://www.btr.org/why-is-my-husband-constantly-on-his-phone/ "husband is constantly on his phone"). Men are bombarded through these mechanisms. With that message every day, especially when you’re talking about, you know, 20 something young guys today, they never lived in a world without the internet. They cannot conceive of it. I’ll be eternally grateful that I was born in the mid 1970s. I’ll always be able to see the internet as something that came along at one particular point in time and wasn’t always there. ## Online Explicit Content & Male Entitlement **Rachel Moran:** And I actually feel sorry for anybody who can’t hold that memory. That has been an enormous contributor to male entitlement to female bodies. **Anne:** Due, to their access to online explicit content? I mean, that would be my assumption, but is that what you’re thinking? **Rachel Moran:** In very large part, but I think it’s more insidious than that. If you think about what life was like back in the 1980s when MTV burst onto the scene. All of a sudden, we viewed things considered very risqué back then. All of that now, it’s something that we look back on. And it appears almost charming, a relic of the past, things that would have been so scandalous that they were actually banned 35, 40 years ago. Now they just wouldn’t turn a hair on your head. So we have this progression, is what I’m saying. Technology speeds everything up, including pushing it into the mainstream. Things considered explicit two generations ago, they’re not even on the radar anymore. ![Male Entitlement Definition](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Male-Entitlement-Definition.webp "Male Entitlement Definition")**Anne:** With more access to men being able to view women’s bodies via the internet. Can you talk about the correlation between the ability to view it whenever they want and their feelings of entitlement? **Rachel Moran:** We covet what we see every day. If men see representations of highly sexualized women, and highly normalized. They put those two things together. I’ve had men look at me in absolute astonishment when I told them that I simply did not want their attention. ## Normalization Of Harassment **Rachel Moran:** I remember being in an American city a few years before the pandemic came along. It might’ve been New York, but I was there with a few women, and we were working towards abolishing all this. A man approached me in the street. I told him I didn’t appreciate his lewd and vulgar comments. He was genuinely astounded. And I can tell you one thing about that guy, is that the astonishment was real. It was genuine. My heart goes out to young women today. **Rachel Moran:** Any woman under 27, 28 grew up in a culture that normalized harassment. I mean, harassment must get physical. It has to turn into assault. Before people have any idea of where the boundaries are, if they even do at that point. Women unwillingly turn a blind eye to their partners watching online explicit content. Or unwillingly participate in watching it with them. Women reach out to me all the time, have done it for more than a decade, and often tell me their personal stories and experiences. I want to initiate conversations about that. So I’ve heard a lot of this stuff, and from everything I’ve seen, it is a toxic influence in human relationships and society more broadly. ![Is an Untrustworthy Husband Entitled to My Trust?](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/hL8GYiJ7Cig/sddefault.jpg) **Anne:** Absolutely, yeah, many women who listen to this podcast have been abused in many, many ways by their husband’s use of online explicit content. [Marital coercion](https://www.btr.org/what-is-marital-coercion/ "Marital coercion"), sometimes rape, which is coercion, and so my audience is familiar with the harms of it. This male entitlement has grown so much from women’s bodies, also to women’s labor. It’s interesting to me that as we’ve had so much progress in some ways, like women in business or women in more leadership roles, male entitlement to women’s bodies has not reduced, but increased. ## Prostitution & Male Entitlement **Anne:** They feel like women owe them, or that it is some type of need. That if they don’t have it met, a lot of these abusive men, there will be some consequences if their wife isn’t meeting her wifely duties. It’s alarming and harmful to women. So for my audience, a difficult part of Rachel’s story. Men prostituted Ms. Moran for seven years in Dublin and across Ireland, beginning when she was 15 years old. I want to talk to you about this male entitlement and how it fuels prostitution and trafficking. I also want to help people understand that women in this situation who are abused like this are coerced and used. Many women who listen to this podcast, their husbands, perhaps solicited a prostitute. And they have a hard time sometimes wrapping their heads around that he not only abused his wife. Because he gaslit, lied and psychologically abused her, but also abused the woman he exploited. [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) **Rachel Moran:** Prostitution couldn’t exist without male entitlement. It just simply couldn’t. I don’t think any man in the history of the world has ever paid to put his hands on a woman in any circumstances that I can imagine. Except by deciding himself entitled to do so. You know, I spent a decade writing my memoir, *Paid For*. I don’t think I covered all the angles, because there’s far too many of them. But I gave it a good shot, and we published 110,000 words in the end. So, you know, that’s not a brief segment of writing. So I taught a lot and I, and I’ve talked a lot too. I’ve given public presentations for a long time now, well, more than a decade. ## The Concept Of Consent **Rachel Moran:** And it’s still hard to explain in a snapshot moment. You’re not going to get this across in a few minutes. I think the concept of consent is the biggest part of the problem when you’re trying to explain to people who know nothing about prostitution, what the heart and soul of prostitution truly is. Because people say to themselves, oh well she consented, oh well they consented, and as long as those women are consenting, well then no, no harm, no foul, you know. People misplace the term consent itself, and the concept of consent not only in prostitution, but also in conversations about every kind of intimate exchange. Because it is supposed to be about mutuality, not consent. The term consent is far better suited to commercial exchanges or other kinds of exchanges that are not human, deeply human in their interactions. As soon as we start talking about consent, we remove the intimacy. We remove what it is that actually passes between two people in a intimate exchange. The exchange shouldn’t involve money or any kind of coercion. And that’s another thing that people miss, is that the cash is the coercion in prostitution. Because if you removed the cash from the equation, simply nothing happens. Unless we were talking about forcible rape. **Anne:** That is absolutely true. The cash is the coercion. The victims situation is so desperate. Male entitlements are forcing them with coercion to re-engage due to their circumstance. **Rachel Moran:** Exactly, and this is why I don’t find the term trafficking useful. Our political opponents certainly find it useful. It allows them to distinguish between prostitutes and trafficked women. ## Every Woman In Prostitution Is Coerced **Rachel Moran:** So the idea of trafficking is that it refers to women in situations of force, fraud and coercion. But every woman in the history of prostitution was in a situation of coercion. If you consider the cash to coercion, as I have done from my first job, when I was 15 years of age, up till the present moment. And I’m a lot closer to 50 now than I am to 15. You know, I’ve understood what this is for a long time, and the truth is that most men do too. You will never see a man move as quickly in your life as he will if you threaten to tell his wife. That he was there, and you’re having the conversation in the brothel. **Anne:** Do you mean they know well that women are not doing it because they enjoy it? They know women receive money, and that they would not do this without money. **Rachel Moran:** Yeah, most men are well aware of the circumstances and still feel that male entitlement. I have been saying for years that the veil would fall off everybody’s eyes, who condones it in whatever way they do. People tell themselves all sorts of stories, women as well as men. But I don’t believe any of these pro-legalization voices in academia, or whether they’re just ordinary housewives living their lives. If any individual were to walk into a room and open the door and see their own daughter sitting there on a brothel’s bed for sale, that’s the great equalizer. ## Male Entitlement: Men Are Buying The Right To Use A Woman’s Body **Rachel Moran:** I think, when you imagine the body of someone you love used in that way. Because, you know, what men buy in prostitution. It’s not her time, they’re not buying an hour with a worker. They’re buying access, they’re buying the right to use that woman’s body. They’re literally buying their way inside her. We think about people we love. Their bodies used in such ways are inconceivable to us. So that should tell us all we need to know about what the trade truly is. **Anne:** It’s so heartbreaking to know that they are aware that this is not something an exploited woman would be doing if she weren’t desperate for the money. I like how you talked about how this isn’t about consent. Because the general feeling of consent from a male entitlement perspective would be, what can I do or say that will get her to have it with me? Rather than the perspective of is she interested in an intimate experience? Is she actually wanting a physical experience, because she feels loved, cared about and seen? They’re thinking, well, I just have to get that yes. I feel like the world sort of sees “consent.” As just getting the yes, as long as she’ll sign right here on the dotted line, good, I’ve got her. ## Mutuality vs. Consent **Anne:** She gave her consent. I don’t know what the problem is. Rather than asking, what did she want or need in that moment? She wanted and needed money in that moment. In the case of prostitution, she needed to pay the bills. She needed to eat. is that kind of what you meant? You didn’t like the word consent, because, hey, I can lie to her. As long as she signs on that dotted line, I’m good to go. Rather than a man with male entitlement actually having an interest in the person and caring about what their hopes and dreams are. **Rachel Moran:** There is a daily tsunami of abuse and violation. The abuse is covered up, concealed, and condoned by the word consent. At this point, I think it’s a frankly dangerous word. There was a time when I thought it was useless and a misplaced word. But I’ve evolved my thinking to believe it’s a dangerous word. Because anything regularly used to conceal harm has got to be dangerous, and that’s where I’m at with the word consent. I just don’t use it anymore unless I’m explaining why I don’t use it. **Anne:** So how would you define consent in the sense that a woman is interested in an experience? **Rachel Moran:** I talk about mutuality, because that’s what you’re talking about. There is a two-way street. In prostitution, it’s a one-way street. He’s getting the contact he wants. She’s getting the money she needs. And there is no mutuality whatsoever, which is exactly why the term consent is misapplied. ## Trying To Get The Yes **Rachel Moran:** You talked earlier about the way male entitlement justifies abusers only needing that yes, that’s only some of them, of course. But I believe we need to force a shift away from the use of the term consent, for all the reasons I’ve described. But of course, we have to replace that with something else, like you alluded to. And I think mutuality is that word. **Anne:** So many organizations are trying to teach people about consent. And in part, they’re saying it’s an enthusiastic yes. Many abusers interpret that as, okay, how do I groom her to think I’m interested in her? How do I lie to her? Or what do I have to say to get the yes? And I think what you’re saying is they’re seeing a consent as some sort of transaction. I’m going to give you this. You’re going to give me that. And it’s this exchange of goods or services, essentially. That is not what an experience should be about. If I hear you right, you’re saying that’s why you don’t like the word consent. Because the way it’s taught and talked about these days is so transactional and not at all relational. **Rachel Moran:** Yeah, consent was never the right word, just from a linguistic point of view. And so for that reason, I think it’s little wonder that it’s been so misused. I’ve talked a lot about this elsewhere, about language around this whole issue. And the way that if you make one single misstep at the outset, every other step you take linguistically can only lead you in the wrong direction. ## Male Entitlement: The Role of Self Published Exploitation **Rachel Moran:** And you make a misstep with the language, and inevitably you make a misstep with the politics, etc. It’s a dangerous misstep to make. Because it starts with the language, moves into politics, then it ends up in legislation where male entitlement influences the result. So we have to be clear about the language, especially the language we’re using when we’re initially framing ideas and concepts. Where we’ve been brought to today is something that’s just got to be unpicked. Looking at what all this has given rise to. One of the dangerous things is that it keeps getting more hidden. What happens is we end up with things now, like self published exploitation. That’s the best kind of example I can think of right now. *Onlyfans* is something that’s been so expertly concealed in its nature and intentions, and the way it operates. https://www.btr.org/how-to-prevent-exploitation/ Many women actually believe this is the breakthrough that women needed to be fully autonomous in this soft core version of the trade. This is not [how to prevent exploitation.](https://www.btr.org/how-to-prevent-exploitation/ "how to prevent exploitation.") And we keep being served up these examples of women who make fantastical amounts of money, tens and tens of millions. The reality is, almost all women set up an *OnlyFans* account. They make a few hundred dollars a month, and their images will exist online forever. And do harm to them, their career prospects, reputations, sense of personal dignity and integrity. All for the price of what boils down to maybe a few cups of Starbucks coffee a day, if they’re lucky. And this is the reality of what’s going on. ## The Dangers Of Misusing Consent **Rachel Moran:** But back again to that term consent, people will simply look at it and say, Oh, but she consented. So what’s the harm? Or, oh, but she consented. So she has nobody to blame, but herself. And that’s another dangerous aspect of the term consent. The way it’s used to excuse. So it’s used in all sorts of harmful ways. And that’s one of them. **Anne:** These are just more and more complex ways of blaming the victim. Women whose husband is abusive and convinced of his male entitlement could use the same argument. Well, she consented to be married to him. **Rachel Moran:** Yeah, and also she didn’t leave. **Anne:** Then she’s, what, by default, consenting to be emotionally and psychologically abused? No, she thought she was in a relationship with a man who cared about her. She did not realize she was in a transactionship with a man who was using and exploiting her. This consent word has really messed people up, because they think I did consent because I said yes. I’m not thinking, but I didn’t want to do it or I didn’t feel comfortable. So how would you use the term mutuality? **Rachel Moran:** Ah well, that would depend much on the context. It’s not a word that you can switch out directly for consent in most instances, although you can sometimes of course. You can say well it was mutual, as readily as you can say well it was consensual, but they have those subtle but important distinctions between them. Give me a few of them now if you like, because it might be interesting for your listeners to think about how they can use this. ## Consent vs. Mutuality **Anne:** Maybe something like he was honest and trustworthy and actually cared about her. Both were interested in physical touch. She was safe, so the it was based on mutuality, not male entitlement. I mean, is that the kind of thing you would say, rather than saying the husband and wife went on a date, and then of course she consented to intimacy? It would take a little longer when we talk about it to actually describe mutuality. Because it’s more than just someone saying, yes, it involves so much more. There’s no way to say, and so then she, mutualitied, right? Where you can say, and then she consented. **Rachel Moran:** What you can say, just as briefly, is that it was mutual. It doesn’t have to be a big, long winded thing. We don’t have to make it more complicated than it needs to be. But I think we’ll have to push for this. Like we’ll have to actively put this into conversations and explain why. **Anne:** Yeah. **Rachel Moran:** Because people will continue to circle back to the whole consent thing. I mean, it’s not the boulder up a hill scenario that it might seem like. 50 years ago, nobody was talking about consent. Some idiot came along and thought that was a good idea, and it took off. Same thing happened with the term sex work, which is just appalling. But I think we can and should deliberately introduce mutuality into our conversations, and it doesn’t have to be that hard. ## The Impact Of Male Entitlement **Anne:** So when we’re talking about the sense that men are entitled to use women’s bodies. This male entitlement fuels trafficking and prostitution. Because so many victims are filmed, and then that documented filming of their abuse is called pornography. But we know it’s just documentation of abuse. **Rachel Moran:** In a very real way, we’re all harmed. Because society itself is harmed. Clearly, the individual who’s on the receiving end of that I harm is the person who’s harmed first and foremost. But, we’re all harmed by this. Any mother who’s ever brought a little boy into this world has seen the progression of that child and the difference in his innocence, pre and post puberty. The difference between a little boy who’s eight or nine and the same child at 13 or 14. When the social phenomenon of masculinization kicks in, and he’s at the receiving end of strange bullying from his peers that forces his personality into into hiding. That’s all part of this. Back to the conversation about male entitlement. First of all, that’s bred into men when they’re boys. It doesn’t just appear. And there’s something strange that I’ve noticed about it too. It’s not enough for these young men, I mean, you have a whole movement of them now. I’m sure. They call themselves incels, involuntary celibates for anybody who hasn’t heard. Any one of those young men could pay to assault a woman. And it is assault in a brothel. But it’s not enough for them that women’s physical selves are available to them, because they are to every man in America and everywhere else. ## The Incel Movement **Rachel Moran:** That’s not enough for them. I’ve noticed this. It’s strange. They also want to be wanted, demand to be wanted. They feel very hard done by, to the point where some of them are even willing to murder. Because they’re not wanted. I think that that takes male entitlement to a strange place, and we seem to witness something larger than anything that I think we’ve ever seen throughout history. **Anne:** Wait, wait, I just sit around playing video games all day. And all I eat is like a monster energy drink, and you are not interested in talking to me. Like not only should you want to have it with me, which I’m entitled to, but you should also want to be with me and clean up my mess, and why in the world would you not think I’m awesome? **Rachel Moran:** Yeah, this is what we’re up against. We’ve somehow created this kind of distortion in the minds of young men, well before they ever were young men. Because this starts, like I said, in boyhood. And it’s like that. They think they can sit in their [mother’s spare room and eat Doritos all day](https://www.btr.org/sixteen-year-old-utah-boy-is-killed/), and maybe call a pizza. And play video games, and when they’re not chatting about what women are for, they are for not wanting to sleep with them on the regular. It’s just wall to wall male entitlement. It’s a hardcore male entitlement. Some men take that to the level of a psychosis of entitlement. We just saw the first mortar here in Ireland since the passage of the Nordic model. which was implemented six years ago. There was a woman murdered here only a few weeks back, a Muslim woman from Romania. ## Taking Male Entitlement To Extremes **Rachel Moran:** She’d only lived in Ireland for three weeks at the time she was killed. She was killed by a Middle Eastern man who’d only been here a couple of months. You’d have to be a flat fool or live under a rock or something, not to realize that this was one of those ugly, male on female examples of violence. From Islamic extremists that are sometimes to as “honor killings.” He killed her because she was a Muslim woman in a brothel in the Western world. Sleeping with the infidels. This is what his whole thinking was. He was arrested the next day in Belfast. He’d skipped across the border. He was arguing he would have to be granted bail. Because he couldn’t possibly have his religious convictions pandered to if he was detained in prison. So, here’s this guy talking about his faith in Allah needs to be respected. After he’s just butchered this poor woman. He didn’t turn up there for an encounter. He killed her in 1 minute 57 seconds. That’s how long it took him to arrive at her apartment, walk in, murder her and leave, under 2 minutes. It exemplifies the level and nature of the brutality that we’re dealing with with male entitlement. **Anne:** It reminds me of a book I recently read, and it’s on our website, [Betrayal Trauma Recovery. If you go to our website, btr.org, you can find a curated list of books that we recommend. This one is called ](https://www.btr.org/books/)*[Men Who Hate Women, From Incels to Pick Up Artists](https://www.btr.org/books/),[ the Truth About Extreme Misogyny and How It Affects Us All.](https://www.btr.org/books/)* It’s by Laura Bates. ## Extreme Misogyny & Its Effects **Anne:** It is excellent. It’s talking about this type of extreme misogyny that leads to physical violence. She’s talking about murders like the one you just described. But also domestic abuse, not just physical, although it definitely includes that, but also all the emotional and psychological abuse that women endure from men who believe in male entitlement to women’s bodies, but also their labor. They feel like you owe me this, because you’re just a woman, and I’m a man. As victims of this type of abuse, the only thing we can do is get to safety. Start making our way to emotional and psychological safety. Make sure that the people around us are safe. We’ve heard a lot about the abuse of women. And I think it’s important to acknowledge that we’re actually caring people, rather than people who want to exploit us and see us as a good or service that they can exchange with. What are your thoughts about how to change this mentality, knowing that women who listen to this podcast have no ability to change the mentality of the abusers out there? **Rachel Moran:** First of all, every woman should join the women’s movement. It’s absolutely untrue that we don’t have it within our gift to affect change. Every woman has their voice to raise and their presence to bring. Every last one of us is valid and relevant, because if every woman ever was hurt and harmed, would bring her own voice in her own way. Whatever that is, to the women’s movement. We would have a big movement. Most of the women on earth would be involved in that. ## Prostitution & Violence Against Women **Rachel Moran:** Another thing, this is obscure for most women and for understandable reasons, but I truly believe that as long as we have prostitution on this earth, we will always have violence against women. **Anne:** I absolutely agree with you, yes. **Rachel Moran:** Some people think you can contain violence against women by directing it towards one group of women. And that those women can or should for the greater good of most women be served up as human shields. I have heard women make remarks along those lines that would so, so clearly believe that some segment of us should be used to absorb male entitlement and men’s violence. **Anne:** Really? You’ve heard that? **Rachel Moran:** Oh, absolutely. **Anne:** That’s crazy. **Rachel Moran:** You see, here’s where those women are silly in their thinking. Is that as long as we have a segment of women who are seen as the human shields of violence, what you’re doing is condoning the violence, accepting that since it needs a direction to go in. It has a right to exist in the first place. When we talk about eradicating violence against women, we’re starting from the wrong perspective. We’re thinking about a well heeled middle class housewife, for example. And don’t misunderstand me, please. I’m not suggesting anyone deserves violence more or less than anybody else. What I’m saying is that when we think about violence against women, we think about young women in nightclubs. We think about victims of domestic violence, we think about women who are abused, harassed, stalked, etc. But we put all of our focus on what you might call civilian women. ## Male Entitlement: The Propaganda Of Male Desire **Rachel Moran:** And we don’t think about the women who are at the absolute outer rim of society. And I truly believe that that’s where we need to start. We need to start at that outer rim. Because if we start our work on this issue with the mentality that no woman anywhere, no matter how disadvantaged, no matter how marginalized, deserves that kind of abuse, no woman. **Anne:** um hmm **Rachel Moran:** Well then that will sweep across society as an understanding I believe far, far quicker. **Anne:** Sorry, I’ve never heard of that before. This idea that some women should be sacrificed or something for the greater good of women. So I’m like … **Rachel Moran:** Oh, that’s a very old idea. **Anne:** I’m shocked anyone thinks that. It also gives the idea that it must be because of male entitlement. Rather than thinking men do not have to exploit women. That’s not a male characteristic. They could, not exploit women. They could treat women with respect. They’re not viewing men as capable, caring human beings, that somehow their nature is to exploit. And so we have to sacrifice some women so that men don’t, I don’t know, what, turn into cannibals or something? That just sounds crazy. **Rachel Moran:** The crux of the problem is that many people, including women, have come to buy the propaganda that male entitlement, and desire are an unstoppable force. What men do constantly around their own desires is that they mistake them for needs. That to me speaks to a state of toddlerhood. **Anne:** Yeah. ## The Role of Mothers In Perpetuating Male Entitlement **Rachel Moran:** In toddlerhood, when a child gets to around three and a half, you need to clarify the difference between a want and a need. You want the ice cream, you don’t need it. There is a difference. It’s a sorry state, when we have so many grown men who ought to know better. They don’t understand the basic distinction between a want and a need. And that’s something that we’ll have to clarify before we get any sense out of such people. But there are women, and it’s important to say this, who play that game of male entitlement and play along with it, and cause great harm in doing so. That’s been clearly exemplified to me by the women who take their sons to brothels and convince themselves that there’s a real and genuine need to take a young man or teenage boy to a brothel. Those women make me exceptionally angry. **Anne:** In our community, I would say that, not a majority, but I’ve heard many, many women who their mother-in-laws would fit this category. Where their mother-in-law is like, “My son has these intense needs, and it is your job to give it to him. If you don’t give it to him, he has to get it somewhere. So of course he’s going to view online exploitation. So it’s your fault that he views it. Or it’s your fault that he abuses and exploits prostitutes. It’s your fault, because you’re just not meeting his needs. Mother-in-laws who feel this way traumatize so many women. **Rachel Moran:** It sounds like the mother-in-law from hell, I mean. **Anne:** Yeah, I know. **Rachel Moran:** Not every woman thinks she can speak up for herself in these circumstances. That kind of nonsense from somebody will destroy every relationship. ## The Importance Of Self-Respect **Rachel Moran:** In your life, most importantly, your relationship with your own self, there comes a point in our lives where we have to put the relationship with ourselves front and center. And if that means the collapse of a marriage, so be it. Because if a marriage is under that kind of pressure, it’s a pretty good indication that it’s best off collapsed. **Anne:** And going back to that discussion we had about consent. In my opinion, it’s not a marriage. It’s a transactionship where male entitlement exploits you. That’s a totally different thing than what marriage should be, which is a partnership. It is not that. And so you’re not collapsing a marriage. You are getting to safety from a very unsafe situation. **Rachel Moran:** Um hmm, yeah. **Anne:** Rachel, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us today. Your insights are invaluable and I really, really appreciate your thoughts. **Rachel Moran:** You’re very welcome. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast, Related Posts **Tags:** Male Exploitative Privilege --- ### [Signs Of An Abusive Therapist - Dee's Story](https://www.btr.org/abusive-therapist/) **Published:** September 20, 2022 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Have you felt uncomfortable, exploited, or abused by your therapist? **Content:** Therapy not working like you hoped? Most people don’t know the signs of an abusive therapist. When Dee went to her therapist for anxiety, she expected to feel better. Instead, she was gaslit, groomed, devalued, and discarded. Do you need support? Learn about [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Support Sessions.](https://www.btr.org/group/ "Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Support Sessions.") They are multiple times a day for women only, so you will feel safe. ![Signs of an Abusive Therapist](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Signs-Of-An-Abusive-Therapist-1.webp "Signs of an Abusive Therapist")## Transcript: Signs Of An Abusive Therapist **Anne:** I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re going to call her Dee. She has two children. She’s a mostly stay at home mom, but sometimes she works as an art teacher to kids at her church. She’s taken up cycling as a form of exercise, and it’s been helpful for her to be outdoors. During this journey of healing, she also enjoys yoga and reading. She has struggled with anxiety and depression since a young age. So she started therapy in 2018. And initially, she went to a mental health hospital for intensive outpatient therapy, because her anxiety had become so debilitating. And there she met an abusive therapist and was his client for 10 months. She’s going to talk about her experience with this therapist a bit today. So many women who follow [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/) or listen to the podcast have gone to therapy for help. But when they went to therapy, it worsened, and sometimes they didn’t recognize it for a long time. In Dee’s case, it was 10 months. ![Red Flags of an Abusive Therapist](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/warning-signs-of-an-abusive-therapist-1.webp "Warning Signs of an Abusive Therapist")## An Abusive Therapist May Seem Like A “Perfect Fit” **Anne:** So let’s talk about your story. You go to this abusive therapist. Did you know that you were his first client in his private practice? **Dee:** Yes, I did. **Anne:** And what makes you think this is a good therapist for me? **Dee:** When I was at the mental health hospital, we had a substitute therapist come in one day. It was a group therapy dynamic. And our regular therapist was out that day, and he came in as a substitute, and I had a side conversation with him during a break. I appreciated his response and felt like he knew where I was coming from. And so whenever we left that program, they want you to be set up with a therapist outside of there, so that you could continue your care. He had mentioned to me that he was starting his own practice. And when our regular therapist came back, the next day I was talking to her about trying to find someone. And I consider going to a Christian counselor. Because I felt like that might be the right fit for me. She discouraged me from going that route. She wasn’t sure if that would be the most helpful type of therapy for me. And I don’t remember her reasoning now, but I do remember saying to her, well, this other person that came in said he’s starting his own practice, and she said, yeah, I think he would be a good fit for you. ## The Vulnerability Of Intensive Therapy **Dee:** In that moment, I was still struggling in where I was, and it was hard to pick a person off a list I’d never seen, never talked to. And I trusted her opinion. I know that she was coming from a good place. And I don’t think she had any idea what I was stepping into. I just didn’t even feel equipped to make certain decisions at that point. And I trusted her opinion on that matter. ![Abusive Therapist Red Flags](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/abusive-therapist.webp "Abusive Therapist")**Anne:** Well, especially, you’ve been in intensive outpatient therapy. So, you’re in a very vulnerable place at this time. **Dee:** Yes, absolutely. I’ve dealt with anxiety, but it became, when I say debilitating, I mean, I was barely sleeping. I had stopped eating even the last few days before I finally got into their care. It was just to a breaking point, and I knew that and I needed help. I don’t know where to go for help, and I hear of this place that is pretty close to me. I decided to do something, and that seemed like the most reasonable next step. And I trust that anybody at their facility was somebody I could rely on to be a safe place. **Anne:** Yeah, because why would you think any differently? That makes sense. ## It’s Not Your Fault If Your Therapist Has Abused You **Anne:** In that first meeting, because your decision was basically based on that first meeting with him on the side conversation, and then also her recommendation, would you characterize that now looking back as grooming? When I say grooming, I wonder if the things he says to you are like narcissists, [and covert narcissistic traits](/covert-narcissist-traits/). I can’t diagnose him, because I’ve never met him. I’m just talking from your perspective, but they’re good at reflecting back what people are saying. So many women who are dating narcissists or meet them feel like, Oh, this is my soulmate, right? They understand me. So when I say grooming, I’m also asking about that side conversation where you feel, wow, he understands what I’m saying. Do you see that part as grooming? **Dee:** Maybe not so much as grooming. I later question if I’m targeted for some reason. This is a difficult question to ask yourself, because then you ask yourself, what would make me an ideal target for someone? Did this therapist see something in me that he thought he wanted to exploit? And I don’t know the answer, but that’s something I definitely have asked myself. ![What Are Signs of an Abusive Therapist](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/signs-of-an-abusive-therapist.webp "Signs of an Abusive Therapist")**Anne:** Yeah, and that’s also a victim blaming type question, right? Because then you’re like, what was it about me that made an abusive therapist target me? And, and I don’t think that’s ever the case. I mean, just because you were in an outpatient clinic and just because you were vulnerable at the time doesn’t mean someone has the right to target you. It’s still not your fault. A normal person wouldn’t exploit that. They would have empathy, right, and want to be helping you rather than **Dee:** Exploiting you, right. ## Have Self-Compassion If You Are A Victim Of An Abusive Therapist **Dee:** I wanted to feel validated, because I know that many people you talk to are coming out of a marriage or maybe still in a marriage or relationship that’s abusive. But I didn’t have to keep going back. I wasn’t forced to have him as my therapist, and it’s not to take away from anybody else’s situation, because I understand that many people feel guilt and shame. But for me, that’s such a big part of what I’ve struggled with. It seems like it would have been easy to leave if something didn’t feel right at one point, and instead of leaving at that first sign, I kept going. And it’s hard not to feel like I played a part in it. For many reasons, but that being one of them, I wasn’t living with this person. I’m not married to this person, and I don’t have children with this person. I’m choosing to have them as my therapist, and go back week after week and pay them. ![How Can You Tell if Your Therapist is Abusive](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/abusive-therapist-01.webp "Abusive Therapist")**Anne:** Listening to the stories on the podcast of other women who have had really difficult and traumatic experiences with an abusive therapist, has that been validating for you? **Dee:** I think it’s hard when it isn’t a carbon copy of what I experienced. Because I tend to feel my situation is different. And that their situation is valid for its own reasons. Maybe mine isn’t, because I feel a lot of responsibility in what happened. So I tend to feel like other people are more valid in feeling traumatized in therapy. ## I Didn’t Know What Gaslighting Was **Anne:** Well, hopefully by the end of this podcast and by the end of this episode, you can feel the love of all the listeners. Letting you know that your trauma with this therapist who is abusive is just as valid, and that it is crazy traumatic to trust someone to help you, and have that turn into destruction, chaos, and pain. So let’s actually talk about what happened. Maybe you want to define that first moment when you were like, something’s not right. Even if you weren’t able to verbalize it, or you weren’t able to like process what it was. When was the first time you recognize something is not right here? **Dee:** So, this is one reason why it’s hard to recount what happens, because I feel like there were different aspects. Some of it was physical, or maybe my [husband was gaslighting](https://www.btr.org/husband-gaslighting/ "husband was gaslighting"). And so these things overlap. And it’s hard to give you a concrete timeline of when each thing happened. But they happened interchangeably, so it all leaves you feeling so distorted. ![Manipulators Weaponize Therapy](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/pjEKsR_cvy8/maxresdefault.jpg) When I left, I said, it seemed like I was in a tornado. And things swirled around me, and it felt like pure chaos. And I didn’t understand what was happening. All I knew is that I was in a lot of pain. I think the first time I can see it as part of a larger picture was at the end of a session. He, this abusive therapist, put his hand up and had me put my hand up to his. And he kind of wrapped his thumb around my hand and said something cheesy, like, oh, it’s a hand hug. ## An Therapist Who is aBusive May Gaslight You: Pay Attention To Your Gut Feelings **Dee:** I remember in my next session saying to him, I was surprised he made any kind of physical contact. And I don’t remember what his specific response was, but it was just sort of, oh no, it’s fine. There’s nothing wrong with that. And I thought, Oh, okay, I guess. My idea of what therapy is is very rigid, and I’ve never been to therapy before. So, the only therapy experience was at the mental health facility, and I have never been to therapy otherwise. So I didn’t know what was okay and not okay, and what therapy looks like. I mean, there are many terms that I’ve learned since then. And if I had known them, maybe I would have left sooner, because I would have more of a definition for what was happening. But I didn’t even have those terms yet. **Anne:** It’s not only that you don’t have the terms, I mean, all abuse victims, you don’t even have the context for it. **Dee:** Yes. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) **Anne:** You have this sense that something’s not right. But then when you tell the abuser, Hey, this feels weird to me. And you get gaslit and the abusive therapist says, Oh, no, this is fine. This is what happens, this is normal. This is what happens in marriage and therapy. Then you think well, okay, maybe it’s me. ## Shame, Secrecy & Isolation **Anne:** So you weren’t telling anyone else what was happening during these sessions? **Dee:** No. There was a lot of shame that I felt, and I just think that compounds the secrecy of it all. You know, it makes you feel like you can’t talk about it because you’re ashamed of what happens. And that’s very isolating in feeling that, you can’t share with others what’s going on. That you’re confused about something. And in some ways, I feel like that’s part of why it continues, because I wasn’t talking to other people about it. Not until right before I left the his “care.” **Anne:** So we’ve got physical crossing of boundaries. It sounds like during that session you were gaslit Were there more types of physical crossing of boundaries? **Dee:** Pretty soon after the session, where the abusive therapist had touched my hand. I was emotional a lot in therapy. I think I cried just about every session. And I am upset and emotional about something we talk about. He got off his chair and came and sat next to me, and he put his hand on the back of my head as he talked to me. And I remember him stopping what he said and making a comment that my hair was soft. I remember feeling really nervous about that. And I started babbling about something about my conditioner or something. It was just this awkward response, but it was just so out of the blue. And I remember he just kind of stopped me, and I thought, Oh, okay, just take a deep breath. ## An Abusive Therapist May Attempt To Alter Your Perception Of Reality **Dee:** So, you know, in a following session, when I brought up that that had happened, he said, I didn’t touch your hair. I said, it looked soft. And I said, no. You touched my hair, and you said it felt soft. No, I didn’t touch your hair. I just said it looked soft. And I had no question in my mind of what had happened. I knew what had happened. I am confused why he would try to tell me it didn’t happen. And again, at the time, I didn’t know what gaslighting was. I just thought it was something bizarre that the therapist was doing. In the larger scope, now it makes more sense. But at the time, it was just weird. **Anne:** Did you ever think because he was your therapist, maybe he had a reason? **Dee:** I put a lot of trust into his discretion of what was okay and what wasn’t okay. I think in that situation, instead of drawing a boundary like I normally would have. I don’t sit alone with men. Having conversations about personal things, you know. I’ve been married now for 18 years, and I never felt like I would potentially violate some part of the sanctity of my marriage. And so I think being in therapy and sitting in that sort of bubble, it just felt disconnected from my actual life. ## Can You Relate To Therapy Abuse? **Dee:** It didn’t feel like here’s an abusive therapist crossing a boundary, and me being a married woman. And me needing to say, no, this isn’t okay. If that had happened outside of that room, I would have recognized that. And again, I wouldn’t have been in that situation. I wouldn’t feel it was appropriate to have these intimate conversations. But I mean, that is the dynamic of therapy, is to sit and talk about what, what you’re struggling with. And having these really personal conversations. So I think it just kind of happened without it. It’s really striking me as something that shouldn’t be happening. **Anne:** Well, I think our listeners can relate, like when the therapist doesn’t understand or they don’t validate you. It’s a therapist’s horror story and also clergy horror story on this podcast. In this context, all of our listeners can relate. Because that’s how they felt in their marriage. When they’re thinking, well this is my husband, this is why abuse, and especially [emotional abuse is so hard](https://www.btr.org/emotional-abuse-checklist/ "emotional abuse is so hard") to see. So with another man I met on the street, if he screamed and yelled in my face. Or if he lies to me about something I knew was wrong. Then I’d be like that guy’s crazy or whatever. But when it’s your husband, or when it’s someone you trust. Or when it’s someone you’re supposed to have this safe, trusting relationship with. It’s confusing. You can’t wrap your head around what is actually happening in the moment now that you’re looking back. What should therapy look like? ## Vulnerability When You Have An Abusive Therapist Dee: I’ve been to therapists since then, and things that I don’t feel are confused. A therapist doesn’t hurt me. And I don’t feel like they’re ever lying to me or trying to make me feel bad. I feel supported. I don’t ever feel like they’re trying to cross any boundaries with me. And I always feel like there’s this extra sense of your safety. And there was also this weird sort of issue for me with therapy. When I saw him, where I would feel really, really good in the mornings that I would go. Almost like I was on a high. It was just the sort of anticipation of going and being in this place and feeling good. And then when I would leave, I would feel really, really down and almost unable to wait that week until I could go back. And I had no idea the chemicals in my brain were such a big factor. Because there’s this sort of intermittent reinforcement going on, which did happen. You know, you would get this surge of adrenaline and all these hormones that make you feel good in that situation. ## An Abusive Therapist May Be Unpredictable **Dee:** And then they’re taken away, you feel really, really low, and you want to get that back. And I didn’t realize I was going through that storm. I just knew that I wanted to be there because I wanted to feel good. And sometimes it did feel good. And sometimes it felt bad, and it shouldn’t be this back and forth of good and bad. What am I going to get today? Am I going to get the nice therapist who’s validating and makes me feel good? Or am I going to get the one that makes me feel guilty? Like I’m a bad person. I was talking one day, and he came, and he sat next to me close enough that our arms were touching. But that was it, just sitting next to me. And then, you know, a couple sessions might go by where there wasn’t any crossing of the physical boundary. And then. I remember he came over and wrapped his arms around me. He was sitting behind me, and he kind of laid back on the couch, because I would sit on this small little couch in his office. And he wrapped his arms around me and held me. And I did feel an immense sense of comfort in that. At the same time, he’s telling me that this doesn’t have to happen. We don’t need to do these things in therapy. And okay, I’ll do it this one time, but, you know, this isn’t something you should need from me. And so I had a lot of guilt. I had no idea that he was an abusive therapist. ## An Abusive Therapist May Exploit Your Need For Physical Affection **Dee:** There’s a lot of shame in that. And again, maybe a few sessions go by, and one day I’m just sitting there talking. And unprovoked, he comes and sits on the other end of the couch. I just continue to sit where I’m sitting, and we’re kind of facing each other from opposite ends of this little couch, more like a love seat. And after a few minutes of me not responding in any way. The he said, “You know, why don’t you come lay next to me?” And I did. In a following session, when I brought it up that had happened, he said he felt manipulated by me. And when he said that, you know, when someone says it made their head spin, it literally made my mind spin in circles. Because I thought, how did I manipulate you? I didn’t ask you to come sit next to me. I didn’t ask you to lay next to me. You asked me to do those things. And yet somehow he’s telling me that I manipulated him. The he made a comment that he cared more about me than his other clients. Maybe a little more, and then he took that back and said, well, no, I just said that to make you feel better. All of this should have been a clue that he was an abusive theraptist. And I remember being extremely hurt, and I don’t use language. Usually I don’t cuss, but I remember when he said that to me, I told him you don’t lie to me. And that’s not the wording I used, but I remember I felt extremely hurt and angry. Then as we’re talking, he kind of settles things back down. And he’s back to saying, well okay, no, I care more about you. ## I Wish I Had Walked Away **Dee:** I’m just trying to invalidate myself, because I shouldn’t feel that way. So that’s why I said I care more, but I need to deny that to myself to keep myself in check. I’m on a roller coaster. I told him later on, How am I supposed to know what’s true and what’s not true when you tell me one thing and then the opposite? You’re telling me you feel manipulated? It was so confusing. And I wish I had walked away at that point. I wish I had already walked away. But it’s hard to want to start over in therapy when you’ve laid all that groundwork. And had some sessions where you maybe talk about some specific things that are hurtful. I remember there were a few sessions that were hard to get through. And I know that one, I felt an attachment to him. And two, I felt like I don’t want to start over. I don’t want to go to someone and have to do that all over again. I just want to go forward. And I kept telling myself that it would be okay. And it just kept getting worse. **Anne:** So you’re manipulated in this vulnerable position with an abusive therapist. Did you ever wonder, am I having an emotional affair with my therapist? **Dee:** Oh, absolutely. You know, I would come home and feel like I had this bad secret. Boundaries are crossed, and I feel shameful and guilty about that. I knew I was hurting, but I didn’t know how to get help for it. And emotionally isolated, like I wasn’t understood. I wasn’t able to communicate to my husband. ## An Abusive Therapist May Give You His Or Her Personal Contact Information **Dee:** I think it’s important to mention that early on, as a client, I had his personal number. That’s the number he uses as his business. It was his personal number and his business number. And I texted him a few times when I struggled and could reach out to him. And sometimes he would respond, and sometimes he wouldn’t. He told me, he’d be okay with it either way. If I respond, lucky you. And if I don’t, then you have to accept that. I remember that was kind of the attitude of how that would go. And I remember early on, there were a couple of times where it was later at night and I was struggling with something and I would reach out and get a response. A few times, we ended up talking back and forth for a while. And it became more conversational than therapeutic. After one of the times when that conversation had gone on for maybe even an hour, the he told me to delete the text. And hello, red flag, I wish I had known how inappropriate that was. And I did, I deleted it and it happened again within a couple of weeks. That happened again, and at the end, hey, Delete this text, and I did. And there were comments made when I was in sessions. I remember him making a comment about his intimate life. Which is absolutely something that he should have never been talking to me about. He told me some personal things about his family. Very personal things about his family, his parents in particular. Again, things that were not relevant to my therapy and never should have been coming up in therapy. ## An Abusive Therapist May Spend Extra Time With You **Dee:** The therapist started letting my sessions go longer than the allotted time. They are supposed to be an hour or under an hour. And it became normal for my sessions to be at least an hour and a half, two hours was pretty typical. We had one session that was about four hours. That was the longest. And I am only charged for an hour each time. And I remember telling him, I don’t have my phone out. I don’t know what time it is, so you tell me when our session is up. And I left that to him to tell me, Hey, okay, it’s time for us to end. Again, it became very normal for my sessions to go over an hour by quite a bit. And come to find out, because I have since read the code of ethics for therapists, that’s unethical. I didn’t realize that at the time, how damaging that actually is as a client. And also again, confusing. Because some days if the therapist would come in and say, Hey, I only have an hour and a half today. He would say it kind of in a cold way. And I remember. In those times, it seemed almost like a rejection, sort of this cold comment he was making at me of, I only have this much time for you today. And I was just sort of at his whim. ## The Danger Of Trusting An Abusive Therapist **Dee:** He told me multiple times that he was an empath and I was not. He said he’s an empathetic person and I am not. For a long time, I defined myself as an empathetic person. Sometimes to my own detriment. I feel tender hearted. And that’s one of my core strengths, I think. And to sit there and have a professional tell you, you’re not an empath, but I am. It stripped me of part of my identity, of something valuable that I see in myself. But again, I see this abusive therapist as this kind of authority. In a way, I thought maybe he was right. I put a lot of value and trust into what he told me. And the therapist also would make comments about you, I’m the expert. See, my diploma’s up there on the wall. You don’t know what you’re talking about, kind of comments. **Anne:** We get that a lot. The therapist says I’m a therapist, so this isn’t abuse. Either I’m not abusing you or your husband’s not abusing you. This is just a communication issue or something. It’s a story we hear a lot around here. I’m a therapist, so I know better kind of idea. But in this case, he uses it to keep you confused. **Dee:** I think it just reaffirmed that he knew more than me. There was this air of, I’m educated on this and you’re not. And that played into other things too. ## An Abusive Therapist Will Take Advantage Of Their Position Of Authority **Dee:** I remember us talking about my job and education. I have a bachelor’s degree. And I was talking about my teaching job, teaching art. And he said, well, as he’s making a note in his little journal, where he kept notes of my sessions. The he said, well, I’m going to write down art facilitator because you don’t have a teaching degree. It seems so unnecessary and hurtful, but I feel like there were many times where there were these little cut downs. Again with the comment of he’s the expert, and I guess it was devaluing me. And maybe trying to keep me in a place of feeling like the abusive therapist was the all knowing authority. Who am I to question the expert? **Anne:** But also seemingly not just about therapy or therapeutic things. But giving you the impression that he’s also the authority and knows more about your life. Knows more about what you need or how you feel. Do you know what I’m saying? Is that sort of the feeling of it? **Dee:** Yes, yes. There’s even something specific, and this is pretty personal. I remember talking to him about a specific encounter I had in college that was pretty traumatizing. And here I was 19 years later, sitting in his office, crying, like barely able to tell the story. Because it was extremely upsetting and traumatizing to me. And I was talking to him about that experience. In that moment, the abusive therapist told me that my response was mean. ## Why Was He Telling Me That? **Dee:** He told me once that he didn’t know if he’d ever had intercourse with the lights off. Like, what? You turn the light off when you have it? And I said, well, yeah, usually. And the therapist said, “I don’t know if I’ve ever had it with the light off.” And why was he telling me that? **Anne:** So your abusive therapist was a addict. That sounds pretty typical of a addict. You had a serious abuser slash user on your hands there. It’s just hard to picture him in that way. That’s how the wives feel about their husbands. They’re like, what? No, he wouldn’t use explicit material. And I’m like, well, all the things you just told me are classic, classic markers. I think one thing that’s really hard for wives of abusive men to wrap their heads around. Is that the woman their husband has an emotional affair with, for example. Or the women they’re having a flat out affair with are also victims in many ways. Because here you are, abused and manipulated. Not knowing where to go for help, continually asking your abuser, Wait, is this right? This doesn’t feel right, I’m confused. And him gaslighting you and telling you it’s fine. And this is what’s good for you. I think it’s helpful for all listeners to understand that we need to be gentle and empathetic with all victims of abuse. Whatever form they come in. And then in this instance, I’m bringing that up because he could have been married. And still participated in this type of abusive behavior. **Dee:** Definitely. I feel like more often than not, the stories I have heard, usually they are. And the therapist did bring it up when I confronted him. ## An Abusive Therapist Will Cause You To Feel Blame **Dee:** And I would like to tell you about that confrontation. I remember the therapist was a little emotional and upset when he said, Imagine if I’m married. And I thought, well, I am married. And for him to say like, oh, imagine if I have a wife and am married. **Anne:** Well, imagine if I am married, because I am. Yeah, the lack of empathy and understanding is astounding. So I think that’s why it’s so traumatic for you. It validates you and validates other women who have been coerced into a physical relationship that was inappropriate. That they didn’t feel comfortable with, that they didn’t necessarily consent to, but they’re finding themselves in it. It’s almost like a form of rape. This is why [finding the right betrayal trauma support](https://www.btr.org/contact/ "finding the right betrayal trauma support") is so important. **Dee:** It’s hard not to feel a lot of blame on myself. ## Recognizing Unethical Therapy Practices **Dee:** I want to tell you too about an organization I connected with that should be mentioned on the podcast. You know, they told me it was never my job to make sure the boundaries weren’t crossed. And that’s been a hard thing to accept. That’s really hard to accept, because I take a lot of responsibility, and I continue to. But one thing that an abusive therapist might do is schedule clients at the end of the day, so that you’re the last one there. Maybe the office is empty, and also going over your allotted time. If you’re scheduled for 50 minutes or an hour, you should only be there for 50 minutes or an hour. But I also knew that because I was one of his first clients, the therapist had a lot of extra open time. And I guess I felt privileged that I was allocated extra time and not charged for it. And not realizing that isn’t appropriate. Another thing is physical contact. That one’s kind of, you know, the lines are a little blurry when it comes to handshakes and maybe even hugs. Because I’ve even had a therapist since then who likes to hug me at the end of our session, and I was comfortable with it. She is a sweet woman, and I always feel like her intentions are pure. But you know, even that’s a gray area, as far as if that’s appropriate or not. But particularly if it starts out as one thing, and you start seeing it progress over time. ## An Abusive Therapist Will Groom Victims Slowly Over Time **Dee:** So for me, that was initially just touching my hand. That progressed to the abusive therapist sitting next to me, him touching my hair at one point, him sitting close enough for our arms to touch, and then at some point him putting his arms around me. And him asking me to lay down next to him, and unfortunately on a few occasions even going beyond that in the physical sense. Looking back, I can see how they were these tiny incremental steps that didn’t scream out at me. And obviously, these things were not okay when they’re happening little by little over months at a time. It just, I don’t know, I think it’s easy to excuse each step forward that it goes. It’s not like I walked in and at my first appointment he was sitting next to me. That didn’t happen right away. There were steps that even led up to that. **Anne:** What were you saying to yourself at the time while the abusive therapist groomed you? It’s slowly escalating over time, but not escalating, so it was obvious. **Dee:** I think there was a big part of me that I had a certain privilege that other people didn’t have. **Anne:** When do you start to notice, hey, you know what, something’s got to change here. This is not the right therapist for me. **Dee:** I think it was way earlier than when I actually left, honestly. It’s hard, because to some degree, these things felt good to me. To have attention or to have that kind of comfort. ## The Trauma Bond Explained **Dee:** But there was also tremendous guilt and shame. Because I recognize that these things shouldn’t be happening. But it took a while to get to a place where I felt I could leave. Because I remember feeling emotionally attached to the therapist, and now I know that I have a trauma bond to the abusive therapist. I’m still dealing with that. It’s weird to feel the need for somebody in your life who you know has hurt you tremendously. But yet, you still wish they could be there for you when they’re the one who hurts you. **Anne:** Can we talk about trauma bond for just a second and let me, if you don’t mind, give a little rant about trauma bonding? I believe in trauma bond when it comes to like two people who have been through a tornado together, for example. So they’re both maybe about to be killed by a tornado, and both hide in a basement together. The tornado goes by and they survive together. And forevermore, they have this bond they created through their shared trauma experience. In my mind, that’s what trauma bond means. Two people who have both experienced a traumatic event together. And supported each other and relied on each other through that traumatic event. What you’re talking about is sometimes called Stockholm Syndrome. Which I also don’t think we should use that term. Because there’s some level of victim blaming. That somehow in the process of being abused, she decided she needed her abuser. What I would prefer to call it, and if you want to continue calling it a trauma bond, be my guest if that’s helpful to you. I’m not trying to take away a helpful term, because some people have found [the term](https://www.btr.org/terms/ "the term") trauma bond helpful. ## Manufactured Relational Tether **Anne:** I prefer the term I made up. That is what I call a manufactured relational tether. And the reason why I prefer to call it is because this person has created a stressful problem. You’re not getting approval, appreciation, love, attention or whatever they create on purpose to reel you back in. It’s a manipulation tactic. So when you feel the stress of that manipulated emotion of hey, I’m not paying attention to you. Or I don’t care about you. Sort of this detachment pushes away when you expect some type of attachment or bond. They do it on purpose, and then they relieve it on purpose. So then, you are totally relieved when you’re reattached to that person. When they create a problem that only they could solve, you feel relief, right? So it’s sort of this manufactured relational tether, and the way I like to think of it is more like a tether ball. So you are attached to this abuser on this string, and the abusive therapist hits the ball, and you’re free. Flying through space, and you feel insecure, worried and concerned. And then the ball wraps around the pole, and for a brief moment it’s like, okay, relief. I feel good. This makes sense. I like how this feels, and then it starts to unravel. And it feels uncomfortable. ## An Abusive Therapist Will Cause You To Feel Shame And Guilt **Anne:** And then the he hits it again. And to take yourself out of that manufactured relational tether, it’s going to be painful. To cut that cord. And hurl violently through space unattached. So I don’t see it as a trauma bond so much that they do it on purpose to manipulate your emotions, to make you feel attached to the him. But it’s all manipulation. You’ll have to tell me, after you think about it for a while. I don’t think you bond to the person. I think that what happens is you’re so much manipulated, that it feels uncomfortable to be floating in space. **Dee:** What you’re saying makes a lot of sense, and I am all for any language that helps release me of some of that shame and guilt that I carry around. Because that, as much as anything, has been part of my healing, and it’s been a difficult part for me. **Anne:** What happened was you were slapped around a lot. I mean, thinking of yourself as a tetherball. The only thing that gave you any semblance of security is that rope attached to you. And right now, I think what you’re feeling rather than the bond is just the wound from having to rip that rope out. ## Seeking Justice & Accountability **Dee:** At the end, I reached out to a friend who I knew would give it to me straight. I said to her, These are the things happening. And I don’t know what to do. She just said so clearly, “You have to stop seeing him”. And I remember telling her, but I don’t want to, like I don’t know how to do that. I don’t know how to leave. I don’t, I just don’t know how to do that. And I had one more session after that. And I had her words running around in my head and could see it all. More from her eyes than my own. And that is what allows me to leave, and that was my last time to go. I text the therapist the next day and say I’m looking for a new therapist, and he said, okay, I’ve made the final charge to your credit card. Thanks for letting me know. I confronted him a few weeks later, and I showed up at his office without an appointment, and I just said, Can we talk? I recorded our conversation and got the therapist admitting to basically all of it. Then sent that recording with my complaint to the board. I went back one other time for the same reason, just being confused and saying I want you to clarify, like are you a villain? Are you just a weak person? Are you unethical? I don’t know who you are. I’m so confused, I don’t you know. I kept trying to make sense of it and wanting him to explain to me who he is, which I now realize is never going to happen. ## The Reality Of Reporting Abuse **Anne:** Yeah. Abusers will never say, I’m an abuser. I groomed you. And then I slowly abused you over time until it got worse, worse, and worse until you noticed. What is the status of your complaint right now? **Dee:** So it’s been a little over a year. And I have requested an open records request, which is what I’ve sent in. Because right now the board has not contacted me at all. So all that I had been told in the past when I called to check on the status was that my complaint is in the queue. And they said that means it hasn’t been assigned to an investigator yet. **Anne:** So this abusive therapist is still practicing is the gist of the answer. Dee: Yes. As far as I know. I’ve checked on his license a few times since then. Just in case, for whatever reason, I wasn’t contacted, and maybe something had happened. And everything looked in order online until this last time I checked. And his license is listed as delinquent. But I talked to a lawyer and she said, really? That probably just means he didn’t pay to renew. And I guess it’s sort of this between stages of whether he will renew it or not. But the therapist still could practice even with a delinquent license. ## We Need To Be Really Gentle & Empathetic With Victims Of Abuse **Anne:** We also know of people who have had their license revoked and they’ve just decided to start coaching. So they just decided to start calling themselves a coach. **Dee:** And what’s frustrating is that when all this is waiting to be investigated, there’s no way for anybody to know. So this whole time, if anybody did verify the therapist was licensed, they wouldn’t see there were any complaints filed. And until he let it go delinquent. **Anne:** I make sure everyone is who and what they’re supposed to be here at [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/). We don’t want anyone who has had any type of disciplinary action or complaints . But even so a lot of people will check and say, okay, well, they don’t have any complaints, so this must be a good therapist. But we hear horror stories all the time about therapists with active licenses who tell women, “Oh, you just need to have more intimacy with your husband”. Or, oh, you need better communication or whatever it is regarding their husband’s abuse toward them. So the therapist doesn’t necessarily abuse them, but what the therapist doesn’t do is help them identify the abuse they are experiencing. And that is also a super traumatic experience, where you go in for help for abuse, and then you’re blamed for the abuse. So in your case, the abusive therapist directly abuses you in the sessions. I’ve talked to you twice. And this is still, rightfully so, close to the surface for you, and that makes total sense. ## The Emotional Toll of Abuse By An Abusive Therapist **Anne:** What are the next steps for you in this journey? **Dee:** I definitely feel like waiting to be contacted by the board has been. I don’t know that it’s holding me back so much, as it’s just this big question mark of where that’s going to go. And I’ve even tried to prepare myself to accept whatever happens with that, because I can only tell them my side. And hope that whatever they decide is the right thing, and prevents anybody else from being abused. They’re looking into some things to see if we can even go forward. Part of me wants to get through to him the damage the abusive therapist did. And so far, I feel like he’s completely gotten away with it. It’s hard, because I feel powerless. And so in some ways, this feels like I have a little power to go to the abusive therapist and say, you know, this has been a very traumatic experience. And I just want to get that through to him. **Anne:** This is the perennial question for victims of abuse, because so many women are in this waiting stage. Where they’re waiting for mediation or divorce. Or they’re waiting to see if he’s going to file for divorce, or they’re separated, and they’re waiting to see how they feel. They’re waiting for him to get it. They’re waiting for someone to help them understand. The damage he caused. This is a typical, common place to be. This waiting place of will he get it? Will he understand? ## Grieving & Bargaining **Anne:** When you think about the grieving process, denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. I wonder if we’re trying to get him to get it. Is part of that bargaining stage? Where you’re trying to figure out a way to have the abusive therapist know how bad this is. Regardless of what happens in court, with custody, or in any situation, they never get that. And that’s the thing we want most, and so that’s the thing that’s so painful. And when you tell a victim that’s not going to happen, he’s not going to say that. Then it’s like, where do you go from there? Because that’s the thing that you are waiting for. And so I think knowing that this is a stage that all victims go through and that it’s very rare that a victim ever gets justice. Hopefully you will, by the way, hopefully there’ll be some type of justice. And I totally believe in reporting, and I believe in telling people your story, and even telling people around you. This is the name of this abusive therapist. Don’t go to this guy. You know, you can post it from wherever you want. But considering. How am I going to get through this if he continues to practice, not be held accountable, to not acknowledge anything that happened? ## An Abusive Therapist Will Not Take Responsibility **Anne:** That is the question on every victim’s mind, and that I don’t have the answer, and I don’t think any other victim has the answer. All I can say is that in my own experience, that time has healed that part of me. So I’m not so much in that stage anymore, which I’m grateful for. But I remember it well. And then sometimes I am in that stage. Sometimes I go back and think, when is he going to get it? **Dee:** I think I recognize, even when I hope for those things, that there’s a good chance that those things won’t happen. Whether it’s maybe his license has been revoked, or having some clarity where he understands what happened and what damage was done. There’s definitely a big part of me that realizes that’s unlikely to happen. I haven’t yet let go of that, but there are other things. ## Finding Creative Outlets For Healing **Dee:** Sometimes I just need to sit down and do something creative, like watercolor, and I find that healing. I write poetry, and I’ve even wondered if I could publish a book someday. You know, these are things I think about. I don’t know if they’ll happen, but trying to find a way to make something positive out of it is where my head’s been lately. And doing this as well, being able to talk about it, I think is one more step in moving that direction. You know, feeling like if I can share what happened to me and maybe help somebody else avoid being in this situation, there’s some comfort in that and a sense of healing that can come from that. **Anne:** Let’s talk about post traumatic growth for a minute. Not that we would wish this experience on anyone, and not that you went through this because you needed to grow. And not because of any of those things. Having been through it and now being a year out, can you see any part of you that has changed for the better? **Dee:** Being able to speak up for myself, for example, I’ve seen a few therapists since then. And with one in particular, just having the courage to come to her and say, I needed to know how she viewed certain things. To make sure she was a good fit for me. And not ending up in a situation where I felt like therapy wasn’t helping or maybe doing more harm. ## Post-Traumatic Growth **Dee:** Because especially after going through this and going to therapy for this. It was important to me that I could see somebody who recognized it as abuse and didn’t cause more trauma. By blaming me and helping me recognize the abuse and all the ways that that happened. I definitely think that’s something I didn’t have before, as well as being a little firmer in knowing who I am. Because when I saw him, there were times when he would tell me that I’m not an empathetic person, but he is. And I’ve always recognized that I was an empathetic person like that. I feel like that’s definitely part of who I am, but I started to doubt that when he kept telling me that that wasn’t the case. And now, of course, I completely disagree with his characterization of me. I think I’m still definitely in the process of getting to a place where I can clearly see where I’m stronger and in a better place. A place where it’s still a work in progress. I think I’ve just felt really wounded. I don’t want to always feel that way. ## Advice For Therapy Seekers **Anne:** Is there any advice after this horrific experience of being abused by a therapist for almost a year, what advice would you give to other women who are going to therapy or trying to get help? **Dee:** Being educated on what their ethical standards are. I feel like it would be great if anybody before they started therapy knew about those things. I was able to print off all the ethical standards in Texas for therapists. And unfortunately, I read them after my experience. I feel like if I had been educated in that, maybe I would have recognized things much earlier on that were unethical. I can’t say how I would have handled it. But I’d like to think that if I recognized those things earlier, it may have helped me avoid being in the position I ended up in. So I think just recognizing what’s okay and what’s not okay in therapy. You know, one thing he did was talk about himself, talk about his personal life, and go into details about his family. And even to the point of him telling me that he thought maybe his mom had had an affair. Because he thought his youngest brothers didn’t look like him. That they only looked like his mom, and not like him and his dad. And, you know, obviously now I realize that that was way over the line. On what kind of information should have been given about his personal life. If you’re in therapy and there’s any phone conversations or texting outside of therapy, the only topics that should be talked about are appointment times. There shouldn’t be conversational type texting going on or phone conversations that are not related to therapy going on. Having those boundaries protects the client. ## It Is The Therapist’s Responsibility To Be Ethical **Dee:** Therapy shouldn’t have confused me. And my therapist, you know, walking into his office was inconsistent in how he would behave towards me. Sometimes he could be really cold and distant and have a curt tone with me. And I felt like he didn’t like me, or he was angry with me. And having him tell me that I manipulated him was a pretty extreme example. But just even something as small as sharing an article with him. That I felt relevant to my situation. And when I asked him in the session if he had read it, he was rude to me about it. Being able to look back on that now, I see how unprofessional he was sometimes with me. And just that inconsistency of not knowing what I was walking into, not knowing which version of him I was going to have that day. **Anne:** A lot of us see this with our exes where they’re inconsistently giving our children approval. So because our children are safe with us, they care more about what their father thinks, because he’s intermittently kind to them, or he’s intermittently involved in their lives. And so then when they show up, it’s like, Oh, he showed up. And they’re so excited. Whereas when the consistent mom shows up and she’s always there, they’re not as excited because they just expect it. ## The Harm Of Victim Blaming **Dee:** My therapist who deals with psychological abuse was helpful in pointing that out to me and even talking about the brain chemistry involved. Like you were saying about victim blaming and the trauma bond. That fits into that, because I didn’t understand why I felt the way I felt. Until she was able to explain to me about the hormones and the ways that your body reacts to these things. **Anne:** Yeah, it’s some type of manufactured tether that you experience due to his abuse. One of the things we talk about frequently here, which I want to remind people, is that it’s unethical to do couple therapy with your abuser. So you should not be going to couple therapy with someone who’s exhibiting abusive behaviors. That is unethical. It’s also unethical when you are a victim of abuse for your therapist to blame you in any way, shape, or form for the abuse. And that happens frequently. When women try to get help from perhaps a addiction recovery specialist, who is like, Okay, well your husband’s part is this and then your part is this. You need to communicate better, you need to not shame him, you need to do this, this, and this. To blame a victim for her own abuse is not ethical. The ethical thing to do is help the victim get to safety, whatever that means and whatever that looks like. So I just want to remind people when we’re talking about therapy and ethical ways of doing therapy, that explicit material is an abuse issue. And so anyone looking at it from a different lens, I believe, is looking at it from an unethical lens. ## An Abusive Therapist May Use Explicit Material **Anne:** And that is where we hear all the horror stories of women returning and saying he told me I needed to have more sex. Or that I needed to be kind, or that I needed to be patient. Okay, so Dee and I have talked privately. And many details she gave me, the way he talked to her, the things he said, indicated to me that this man was a addict. So some of the things he said made me think this guy is a addict and probably a predator, meaning he thinks having a physical experience with multiple women is just a form of entertainment. Why don’t you talk about that for a little bit? **Dee:** I remember him talking about how, I don’t remember if he was speaking as just men in general, or himself specifically. But I remember him saying that intercourse didn’t have to be anything emotional. It could be purely a physical thing to enjoy. And that even in his own personal life, he had discussed that with one particular woman. But then after they engaged in it, she said things that made him believe she was getting emotionally involved, and he was surprised by that. He said, well, we just had that talk. And so what you’re saying about how he viewed intercourse, I definitely feel like there were things he talked about that show evidence of that. **Anne:** I would venture to say that someone who thinks intercourse is entertainment will hurt people. ## An Abusive Therapist Is Unsafe **Dee:** I do remember thinking it was strange that he would make these comments, but I think it just so often that, you know, they would happen here and there and not in every session. It was easier to just sort of brush them off if once every few weeks something like that was said. Whereas if it had been consistent each time or numerous times in a session. Maybe that would have, you know, the alarm bells would have been screaming a little louder. But it was easy to sort of brush it off. **Anne:** I’m not sure if the therapists who tell victims hey, well, what are you doing, could you be more sexual? Or you’re probably not safe enough for him to tell the truth. Who knows if they are users, but the thing we know is they don’t understand abuse. So you brought up knowing the ethical parameters and boundaries that you should have with your therapist. What is normal or not in a therapy session, and then also being educated about abuse. About this world of addiction that many people call an addiction, which really is just abusive behavior. What that looks like and sounds like is assault. Because part of what you’ve described to me sounds like verbal assault, where he’s talking about these sexual things in really detailed ways. In ways that make you feel very uncomfortable. At the very least, I guess it would be harassment from your therapist is probably the correct definition. ## Deciding Whether Or Not To See A Therapist **Dee:** I was really unfamiliar with abuse just in general. And so, all of this has been a huge learning experience for me. Unfortunately, having to learn it the hard way. I’m sure that healing should be my focus, but part of that process of healing feels like needing to take action. I just want to find meaningful ways to do that. I think finding some purpose and positive things to come out of this is really important to me. **Anne:** Hopefully this experience will be a positive one, sharing your story. And helping women know that the answer that everyone gives. When you’ve got a problem or you seem distressed that clergy, friends and family, will be, Have you seen a therapist? Therapy can be helpful. But it can also be harmful. So many times, a [victim’s right and true reactions to trauma](https://www.btr.org/hes-love-bombing-you/), which are sadness and depression. With an inability to concentrate, which is a hard time reading or making decisions. The answer could be therapy, but it could just be a hug from a friend who tells you, Hey, I love you. How you’re acting is completely normal. There is nothing wrong with you. And so this question of therapy is one that I want victims to consider. To know, do you just need support and validation for acting in appropriate ways in a crazy situation? Or is there something “wrong” with you that you need therapy for? I would say in so many cases, there’s nothing wrong with you. You’re amazing, brave, beautiful and strong. You may need support. The easiest, safest place to go for help is obviously [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group](https://www.btr.org/group/), and you can see the session schedule at BTR.ORG. ## A Support Person Helps You Get To Safety **Anne:** You may need individual coaching to help you see what next steps to take, but is there something wrong with you deep down that you need therapy for? I don’t see it. I see a bunch of amazing, strong, brave women who are doing the best they can in difficult circumstances. In your case, you are struggling with anxiety and depression that required therapy. You wanted to go to therapy and get help. And in your vulnerable state, you were abused in that situation. So considering what your actual problem is important. I don’t think just this blanket, oh, go to therapy, is the answer for everyone. And also, take stock of whether the therapy is actually helping you. If it’s actually helping you get to safety, if it’s actually helping you feel more peace. And actually helping you get a handle on your anxiety, or whatever it’s you’re going through, great. But know that so many women who come to [Betrayal Trauma Recovery](https://www.btr.org/) have been deeply injured from therapy, including Dee. So that’s just a thought that I’d like to leave you with. **Dee:** I know that going to therapy after that experience has helped me. But I would say that finding a community is just as helpful, of people who have been through similar situations. And even just sharing that we are feeling the same things. That has been, every bit as helpful as therapy has been, if not more. ## Finding Community Through The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast **Anne:** How have you found the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast](https://www.btr.org/podcast/) helpful? **Dee:** There’s a lot of overlap in recognizing the patterns of abuse, just feeling validated in my experience and feelings, and seeing other women. And the strength they have, and they might be further along in their process than I am, and just being able to recognize. That in time, I’ll be there too. It’s just not something that I can rush myself through. And try to give myself grace to go through the place I’m at now to get to that place later on. **Anne:** You can’t go around, over or under it. You just have to go through it. And that’s the part that stinks. And other people want you to go over it. They want you to just get over it! They say that often, right? And it’s like, well, I can’t get over it. I have to go through it. But thanks for nothing, pal. **Dee:** Well intentioned comments of that nature, I’ve definitely heard. And the nice thing, like I said, about having a community experiencing it now or has experienced it in the past is they get that. That’s not necessarily helpful. Maybe just saying, you know what, I completely understand how you’re feeling, and I’ve been there too. And you know, be kind to yourself. **Anne:** And we’re here for you through that process. Thank you so much, Dee, for sharing your story and your courage. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [THIS Is the Way Narcissists Treat Their Children After Divorce](https://www.btr.org/how-do-narcissists-treat-their-children-after-divorce/) **Published:** June 18, 2024 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** A guide to help your children heal. **Content:** Are you losing sleep worrying, “How do narcissists treat their children after divorce?” Here’s 5 ways to protect your child from the toxic influence of a narcissistic father. To discover if your child is being abused by your narcissistic husband or ex, [take our free emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). ## 5 Ways To Help The Child Of A Narcissist: 1. Learn why the narcissist does what he does. 2. Invite people into your circle who can support your children. 3. Learn how to use effective strategies and boundaries. 4. Knowing that not having contact with an abuser is best. 5. Create peace inside of yourself. ## Transcript: How Do Narcissists Treat Their Children After Divorce? **Anne:** I have a member of our community on today’s episode, we’re going to call her Rose. She reached out to me and wanted to know how narcissism affects children. So I invited her to come on the podcast and share her story. As she shares her story, I’m going to point out five ways to help the child of a narcissist. Welcome Rose. **Rose:** Thank you. I’m so happy to be here today. **Anne:** We’re grateful that you would take the time to reach out. ## First Way To Help The Child Of A Narcissist: Learn Why The Narcissist Does What He Does. **Anne:** So Rose, before you understood that your husband and then ex was a narcissist. What was going on in your home and with your kids? **Rose:** To start the story, I probably should have never married him in the first place. Unfortunately, I met him when I was 18, so I didn’t know anything about narcissistic people. He broke up with me a lot of times while we were dating. And I’m not sure why I stayed with him. I think I’m sort of a helping type personality. So I guess I felt like I could fix him or change him so that he treated people with kindness and respect. **Anne:** That’s so common for victims of narcissistic abuse, because [narcissists groom victims](https://www.btr.org/narcissists-groom-victims/) so well they don’t understand what’s going on. ![What Are Ways to Help the Child of a Narcissist](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/ways-to-help-the-child-of-a-narcissist.webp "Ways to Help the Child of a Narcissist")So that is the first way to help the child of a narcissist: To learn why the narcissist does what he does. That’s why I wrote the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) to explain in detail. Why the narcissist does what he does. Often people think the solution is just getting to know them better and spending more time. While you’re dating, but narcissists are so good at manipulation and hiding who they are. That women can even be married to a [narcissistic husband](https://www.btr.org/narcissistic-husband/ "narcissistic husband") for 5, 10, 15, even 40 years, and not recognize what they’re looking at. If they don’t know what to look for. So that’s the first way. Learn about why narcissists do what they do. ## Rose’s Marriage & Realizations **Anne:** Rose, in your case, can you talk about how long you were with him before you marry and the length of your marriage? And what behaviors tipped you off that something was wrong? **Rose:** We dated for five years. Then we were married for 18. He didn’t help much with the kids. He was always angry. I saw the effects of his yelling on the kids. They were afraid of him. And never knew when he was going to blow up. They were afraid of men. It was like walking on eggshells. And I really didn’t trust him around the children. Honestly, like if he watched TV, he wouldn’t be watching the children. ![Ways to Help the Children of Narcissists](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/help-the-children-of-narcissists.webp "Help the Children of Narcissists")I started realizing it wasn’t a [healthy relationship](https://www.btr.org/teach-children-about-healthy-relationships/ "healthy relationship"), probably when the kids entered kindergarten. That somehow I needed to get out of there, and I wasn’t sure how. I had no relatives around, so it was really hard for me. I didn’t even consider it for a long time. But then one night he got really, really angry with the kids for breaking something. And when I tried to intervene, he almost threw a screwdriver at me. That was the breaking point. So I took my kids, I took some clothes and photography equipment, and left. Unfortunately, we stayed in the same neighborhood as him. Because I wanted to keep everything the same for the kids, I found a teaching job. But over the next couple of years, it was a struggle for me to teach full-time and help my children get the support and help they needed. Because all three of them had issues, and probably their biggest issue is self esteem, relating to being a child of a narcissist. ## Low Self-Esteem For A Child Of A Narcissist **Anne:** Talk about why his behavior affected their self-esteem, the types of things that a child of a narcissist would experience, and then how they reacted to it and internalized it. **Rose:** Well, as a narcissist, he was always right. He did not listen to anything they said. He would call them names and belittle them. If they had a problem, he would just ignore it, or he would make them feel bad for even having a problem. I remember one time my middle daughter had lice, and he literally just ripped the comb through her hair. He was so angry at her for having that, trying to get the little nits out of her head, and just ripped out her hair in the process. ![Help the Child of a Narcissist Thrive](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/help-the-child-of-a-narcissist.webp "Help the Child of a Narcissist")You never knew what was going to set him off. Because of that, they all have low self-esteem, because they can never win over his trust and never had his support. My two oldest daughters used to play field hockey, and he never wanted them to play on a travel team. Once we separated, he wouldn’t go to their games. He refused to pay for any of that. He still really doesn’t go to their games. They just knew that he did not support them. If they got a good grade on a paper, even now, if they make the honor roll or they’re in all honors classes, they don’t even tell him because they know he just really doesn’t care. ## First Way To Help: Understanding Narcissism **Rose:** [He withholds love. So if he gets angry at them, normally every night he says good night to them through a text, so he won’t text them good night.](https://www.btr.org/narcissistic-husband/ "He withholds love. So if he gets angry at them, normally every night he says good night to them through a text, so he won't text them good night.") He’ll just ignore them for a few days or a week. And then it leaves them wondering, “What did I do wrong?” Or why is Dad mad at me? Or why is he not communicating and saying he loves me? **Anne:** Oh, I’m so sorry. Poor kids. That is so heartbreaking. Yeah, when you face this with your kids, knowing why they do what they do is key. Because if you know why the narcissist is acting this way toward your children, it can help you know what to do. So, again, the number one way to help the child of a narcissist is to learn why that narcissist is acting the way he is. And again, the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) takes women through that step-by-step, so that you know exactly what’s going on. ![Helping the Child of a Narcissist Thrive](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/helping-the-child-of-a-narcissist.webp "Helping the Child of a Narcissist")And you’re just now learning about the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/), which I’m so excited for you to go through. Now that you’ll have access, let’s talk about the things that you felt like you succeeded at, even without knowing strategy. What did you find helpful? ## Second Way To Help A Child Of A Narcissist: Invite People Into Your Circle Who Can Support Your Children **Rose**: I work as a teacher in a city school. And so I work with children who have been abused mentally and physically, and I’ve had some trauma training. One of the biggest things we learned is that when the kids come in, no matter what their age, if they have had a rough night, they might need to talk to somebody, or they might need to take a nap, or whatever they’re dealing with, you as a teacher need to realize. Hey, something happened with this child. They might not be up to steam today to do this, that, and the other thing. And so if my kids had an issue with their dad, and it was something that had made them cry the whole night before, or just out of sorts, for whatever reason, I would email their teacher and let them know. “Hey, this is happening with their dad. Can you please keep your eye out, are they okay?” I would ask if they need to talk to somebody, like a therapist at school. Even in high school, I did that. ![What's It Like When You're Traveling With A Narcissist?](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/tOMv_cos0vE/maxresdefault.jpg) **Anne:** So this is the second way to help the child of a narcissist. I’m going to talk about strategy in a minute. because when you do it, you need to do it strategically. One of the things I found problematic was when my children described to people the abuse that they were experiencing. ## Challenges With External Support **Anne:** Some people would respond by saying to my children. “Oh, well, your dad loves you very much.” And I was like, please don’t tell my children that the abuser loves them, because I don’t want them confused about what love feels like. So I would say, “Oh, you are absolutely lovable, but I’m so sorry. He’s not capable of love. That’s not what love should look like or feel like.” Having adults who understand that around your kids, so that they can support them to help them know. “It’s not, you. You are a wonderful, awesome kid. Your dad has some brain problems, and he’s not capable of seeing how amazing you are.” The second way to help the child of a narcissist is to invite people into your circle who can support your children. But only invite the people who understand this type of abuse. The [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop](/livingfree/) has a section about how to find healthy people to help your kids. It includes step-by-step instructions about how to find these safe people, because we’ve all experienced when unsafe, unhealthy people make it worse for our kids. [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) How old are your kids now? **Rose:** They’re 18, 16, and 13. They’re supposed to see him every other weekend, but the 18 year old now is off on her own at college, and once they turn 18 where I live, they don’t have to have a set schedule. My middle daughter is supposed to go every other weekend, but she hasn’t gone in months because she has a job, and she makes sure that she’s working on those weekends. ## Preferential Treatment Of One Child **Rose:** Now, my son is the golden child. The narcissist usually has a golden child. So I think he is the one that my ex-husband feels closest to. And so he treats him the best. He buys him things, and so he still goes because he’s only 13 and can’t drive yet or anything. But my daughter, who went to college, she’s 18, my ex-husband, didn’t pay for anything. He didn’t pay for anything for the dorm room, he didn’t buy any books. He told her he’s just not paying for any of it, and he’s not. So it’s like he’s just dropped her, he doesn’t support her in any way. Which of course still affects her self-esteem. **Anne:** Yeah. And that goes back to the number one way to help the child of a narcissist. Because if you understand that they just discard anyone, who’s not “useful” to them. So when a narcissist dad can use his child to make himself look good. And take them to church, and everyone at church thinks he’s a good dad, or take them to a family party, or even just to the grocery store. He can just walk up and down the aisle with this kid, and people smile and tell him, “Oh, you’re such a good dad.” Then great, he’s got a use for them. But when he perceives that the children aren’t useful for his image or aren’t useful in some other way, he loses interest in his own children or anyone else really quickly. ## Third Way To Help The Child Of A Narcissist: Learn How To Use Effective Strategies and Boundaries **Rose:** Right. It affects the children. I just feel so bad for any children of a narcissistic parent. Because I see what my kids are going through, and they all have anxiety, all three of them. It’s a long road ahead, because all three are people pleasers. They’re just dying for his attention. Which makes me sad. **Anne:** It is sad. It’s heartbreaking to see these kids try to get blood out of a turnip. Yeah. So the third way to help the children of a narcissist is to learn how to use effective strategies and boundaries. So back when my children were dealing with their father’s narcissistic abuse, I was praying and praying because I’ve experienced his post divorce abuse for eight years. And my children were also being abused this whole time. I was [fighting a narcissist for custody](https://www.btr.org/fighting-a-narcissist-for-custody/ "fighting a narcissist for custody"). It was horrific. So in my prayers, I asked the question. What strategies do I need to know and implement that will completely deliver my children from this abuse and also deliver me? And this is actually where the strategies I teach in the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/)came from. back before I put them into the workshop. When I discovered them, I implemented the strategies. And they worked. It was like a miracle. I was able to completely deliver my children from his narcissistic abuse. That was eight years post divorce. So it took me a while to figure it out. And then I was like, is this just a fluke? Is this just me? So I tested the strategies with other Sheroes to see if it would work with them. And we were able to duplicate that success. The women I worked with reported back to me that these strategies helped them. ## Rose’s Experience With Boundaries **Anne:** So even though you don’t know the strategies in the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) yet. Can you talk about your own experiments with boundaries so far? **Rose:** I did not have boundaries. I am so sad to say that I did not even realize what boundaries were until a couple of years after I left him. I was just kind of in a fog. After you deal with a narcissist for a while, you just are dead inside. I just try to not let him upset me. But what’s happened is that he won’t respond to anything, a text, an email, nothing. And so if there’s a problem with the children, it has to go through my son . With my oldest daughter, especially when he ignores her or attempts to manipulate her, we have very open communication in our family. And so all three kids talk to me all the time, and especially about him, if they have an issue or problem. And so I will flat out tell her, look, he’s trying to manipulate you. You need to stick to whatever your original plan was, or tell him how you feel. And sometimes he won’t respond to her. **Anne:** Yeah, that’s why the third way to help your children when dealing with a narcissist is to have boundaries yourself. So that they can see your example and see boundaries in action. Because time and time again, narcissists continue to try to hurt us. They never give up trying to cause chaos and harm. **Rose:** How do you deal with that? ## Handling Abusive Communication **Rose:** Like when my ex-husband actually sends me something, it usually sets me off, because either the tone or whatever he’s saying, it’s not nice. When you hear those lies, how do you not get upset about it? **Anne:** It makes sense that it sets you off, because when he sends that, it’s actually another abuse episode. The intent is to hurt you. It’s impossible not to be harmed when you’re being abused. And that’s what’s happening. Your desire to prove what’s true. To confront him about all his lies. That is the most natural form of resistance to abuse. So you’ve historically been doing everything right, because the entire time you’ve been resisting his abuse. You just didn’t understand that there were things that were a little more effective, but I don’t want you to blame yourself, because you’ve always been resisting the abuse. You’ve always been trying to protect yourself. [The ](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/)[Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) covers the different ways of thinking about the situation to shield your mind and your emotions from the harm. And the strategic ways to respond to these messages. Yeah, but the answer is if he’s still using his messages to abuse you, which is exactly what’s happening in your case. You’re going to be harmed every single time. There’s no way to be abused and not be harmed. ## Fourth Way To Help A Child Of A Narcissist: Knowing That Not Having Contact With An Abuser Is Best **Anne:** Does that resonate with your experience? **Rose:** Yeah, he did a lot of gaslighting. So something would happen. He would deny it, and I would keep fighting to get him to say, Oh, okay. I see your side. Yeah, you’re right. But of course, that never happened. And I’m still kind of like that. I want him to acknowledge the truth and it really drives me crazy. It really upsets me. **Anne:** Totally, totally. The strategies in the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) help ground you in reality. Women say it’s night and day difference between that and what they were trying to do before. **Rose:** Right, well, I could do that if he actually contacted me, but. It’s more like the opposite, where I need him to pay a bill. And so I will send it to him or email him about it. And he just doesn’t respond. **Anne:** So this is the fourth way to help the child of a narcissist. It’s knowing in your heart that not having contact with an abuser is better. Even though it’s common to think, I want him involved. I want him to contribute. That’s always going to bring abuse with it. So that fourth way to help the children of a narcissist is to realize they’re actually better off with him not writing back and leaving you alone. Then they would cause all the chaos, because they can’t be involved in a peaceful way. This leads to the fifth way to help the child of a narcissist. ## Fifth Way To Help The Child Of A Narcissist: Create Peace Inside Of Yourself **Anne:** The fifth way to help the child of a narcissist is to create peace inside of yourself. No matter what’s happening outside of you no matter what he’s doing, and this is impossible to do. When he’s abusing you because he wants to affect you. We talked about that a little earlier. So, this is how to get rid of that inside of yourself. I remember way back when, before my kids were delivered, At the time I thought, you know, things are getting better. They’re improving. I was feeling good inside. I was feeling peace. And he picked them up for their weekend with him. I was looking forward to a wonderful weekend. And I had a wonderful weekend. When they returned home, they were devastated. They told me a horrific story about how he lied to them the whole weekend. He tried to manipulate them, harassed them, and kept talking about me in ways they knew were not true. It was upsetting to them. I was feeling so peaceful and good. And I thought things were maybe getting better. Then he, maybe energetically, could feel how peaceful I was feeling and just wanted to drum up chaos. Now I know exactly why narcissists choose to do this. But this was back before, and as I thought and pondered why. One of my questions was can I create peacefulness inside myself despite what he’s doing? ## Creating Peace Despite Chaos For A Children Of A Narcissist **Anne:** And so that’s actually one of the strategies to create peace on the inside to deliver our own emotions from the chaos. And that’s why I wrote the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). It was to get rid of his voice in my head. and get rid of the trauma in my body. And I actually wrote those meditations for myself, because I couldn’t find meditations anywhere else that fit our situation exactly. When I say our, I mean, women who were going through this. So those meditations helped me so much. I wanted to make them available to everyone. That helped me rid the trauma of my body so that I was more capable and calm to find safe people to rely on. **Rose:** I’m trying that tonight, yeah. ## Building Self-Esteem In Children **Rose:** I would like to bring up all their self-esteem and let them know that they’re worthy. My oldest daughter especially doesn’t feel good about herself. And I wish she would feel good about herself. She had been struggling with this for so long that I knew before she went to college, I needed to help her figure out what was going on. He refused to pay for those bills. And how do you think that makes her feel? Once again, he’s not supporting her, lowers her confidence and just makes her feel like, why doesn’t dad support me? I just say, I don’t know. I wish he would. And my middle daughter too. She has a lot of anger. She did. She’s getting better now that she’s 16, but she also has low self-esteem. And my son too, I just wish that they knew how worthy they were of other people’s love and that they didn’t have to be people pleasers to have people like them. That they should be able to be who they are and, they’ll find other people that, have common interests and be friends. **Anne:** Now that you have access to the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/), hopefully that will help build that up on the inside to strengthen your internal defenses, and hopefully the kids’ internal defenses stronger. ## Focusing On Positive Relationships **Anne:** I heard this motivational speaker say this a long time ago. She said, “Two out of 10 people will not like you. So never, ever worry about those two people.” Many people spend all their time and energy focused on the two people who don’t like them, so they miss all the love, happiness, and peace they could get from the eight out of the ten people. So only spend your time and energy on the 8 out of the 10 safe people. In my case, that’s probably more like six out of 10 people don’t like me. So I focus on the four people that do, and I don’t worry about the other six. And I find the peace and safety here with my tribe. I’m grateful for our listeners, who apparently like me because they listen. So I’m so thankful and honored that you listen to this podcast. I have found so much peace there, and I think that’s good for children to know too. They have to deal with many issues because they are a children of a narcissist. Like, there’s always a situation where someone doesn’t like you. In your case, it’s your dad. Let’s focus on people who like you. Your grandma, your friend, your neighbor, like, all these other people are worth your time and energy. **Rose:** Oh, I know. I have found that some of my friend’s husbands. Or the kid’s friend’s husbands, have been wonderful role models for my kids and also coaches. I’ve had some amazing coaches and dads step up and take my kids under their wing. So they can see what a person who doesn’t lie or a person who isn’t a narcissist looks like. ## Finding Help For Your Children **Anne:** Yeah, being around safe people is one of the best ways to help our kids understand who is safe and who is not. Every child of a narcissist needs help. **Rose:** Right. Hopefully open their eyes. It took so long for me to see. It takes a long time. **Anne:** Agreed, especially when you’re just poking around in the dark. Trying things that you think might work, but you don’t know exactly if they will work or not. They haven’t been tested. My hope is that women learn the strategies I teach in the [Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/). And when they create peace inside themselves, maybe through the meditations in the workshop. Then it won’t be so much work, because these strategies and tools are so effective. Rose, thank you for reaching out to me. So many women have these same questions. I appreciate your bravery to come on and talk about it. And if any of you listening are interested in talking about the issues you’re facing. You don’t have to have the answers, you don’t have to have it resolved. You don’t need to know what to do to share your story. This podcast is about sharing where we are right now. So the other women know they’re not alone and that we’re all going through this together. Thank you so much for talking to me today, Rose. **Rose:** You’re welcome. Your podcasts have helped me so much. Thanks for having me. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [How To Help Your Daughter Avoid Teenage Abuse - Lucy's Story](https://www.btr.org/how-to-help-your-daughter-avoid-teenage-abuse/) **Published:** August 8, 2023 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Teens can be victims of emotional abuse. Here's how to help your daughter avoid abusive relationships. **Content:** Mothers often ask, “How can I help my daughter avoid teenage abuse?” [Lucy](https://www.tiktok.com/@gurululu?lang=en) is on the [BTR.ORG podcast](https://www.btr.org/podcast/), sharing her insights as a 19-year-old, new in the dating world, with helpful insights for mothers. In this interview, she shares her list of “red flags” that she made with the help of her mother. You can help your child avoid teenage abuse in relationships by having regular discussions about what red flags she can look out for in potential dating partners. Some “Red Flags” you may want to discuss with your teen include: - Coercion, including coercion, that can include guilting, sulking, shaming, and subtly conditioning victims to participate in sexual activities. - Manipulation, lying, and gaslighting. - A preoccupation with their phone. - Any degree of violence, including harming objects or animals. ![Avoid Teenage Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Avoid-Teenage-Abuse.webp "Avoid Teenage Abuse")## How to Help Abused Teens Teens may find it easier to engage in healthy relationships and avoid teenage abuse when adults encourage them to focus on their own goals. Rather than spending time and energy seeking out dating opportunities, teens can use that time and energy to learn healthy habits and behaviors and develop a strong sense of self. Your teenager needs help identifying the abuse, have her take our [free emotional abuse test](https://help.btr.org/free-emotional-abuse-test-for-women/). This quiz will also teach them the 19 different types of emotional abuse. Teens, like all victims of abuse, deserve to be validated, not blamed. Parents can help teen victims by: - Developing a safety plan to make sure that the abuser no longer has access to them. - Validating the victim’s experience. - Reassuring the victim that they’re not at fault. - Allowing the victim to talk openly about their experience, without judgement or blame. If you as their mother need support for your abusive relationship, there’s a place you can go to talk. Here’s our [daily support group for betrayal trauma](/group/) schedule. ![How to Help Your Daughter Avoid Teenage Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/How-To-Help-Your-Daughter-Avoid-Teenage-Abuse-1.webp "How to Help Your Daughter Avoid Teenage Abuse")--- ## Transcript: How To Help Your Daughter Avoid Teenage Abuse **Anne:** Lucy is on today’s episode. She is 19 years old. So Lucy’s mom is interested in betrayal trauma stuff and has been talking to her about this. And because Lucy is 19 and dating, she’s been thinking about teenage abuse, and [teen dating violence](https://www.btr.org/teen-dating-violence/ "teen dating violence") in relation to her mother. We don’t often have 19 year old women on the podcast. But we do have a lot of women who are in relationships that are [covertly emotionally abusive](https://www.btr.org/covert-emotional-abuse/ "covertly emotionally abusive") and psychologically abusive, and they are concerned about their kids. So Lucy, as you’re dating, what red flags do you look for when you consider dating somebody? **Lucy:** Yeah, I have, let’s see. ![Help Avoid Teenage Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Help-Avoid-Teenage-Abuse.webp "Help Avoid Teenage Abuse")#### Red Flag 1: Lack of Deep Conversations **Lucy:** I have ten written down, and the first one is if he can’t hold a deep conversation. #### Red Flag 2: Phone Obsession **Lucy:** Two, if he’s on his phone a lot when y’all are together instead of interacting with you. #### Red Flag 3: Phone Privacy Issues **Lucy:** Three, if he does not let you have his phone passcode and or freaks out when you go near his phone. Because that typically means he has something to hide. Some will say that’s a violation of his privacy. But oh my gosh, considering all the perversion, corruption, and trouble someone can get into on the internet. You better believe I’m going to need access to your phone. And if we were in the same room right now, and you asked for my phone passcode, I would give it to you. Because I don’t think phones were made to be these little boxes of our hidden secret worlds. And I don’t know, if you don’t have anything to hide, I think you should share that. ![Help Your Daughter Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Help-Your-Daughter-Abuse.webp "Help Your Daughter Abuse")#### Red Flag 4: Health Consciousness **Lucy:** Number four, if he is not health conscious, if he does not eat well and or exercise. #### Red Flag 5: Promises to Change **Lucy:** Five, if the guy you’re into has issues and is claiming that he will change for you. It doesn’t, it never works out. Move on. #### Red Flag 6: Handling Bad Days **Lucy:** Number six, if he doesn’t respond well to you on your bad days. Does he manipulate the situation? Does he gaslight? Take note to how he reacts to your reactions. #### Red Flag 7: Words vs. Actions **Lucy:** Number seven, if his words don’t match his actions. ![Teenage Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Teenage-Abuse.webp "Teenage Abuse")#### Red Flag 8: Aggressive Jealousy **Lucy:** Number eight, aggressive jealousy. #### Red Flag 9: Lack of Goals & Hobbies **Lucy:** 9, he has no goals for himself, doesn’t believe in anything important, and or lacks healthy hobbies. And number 10. #### Red Flag 10: Overdependence **Lucy:** He’s overly dependent on you and doesn’t have other close relationships. **Anne:** Those are really good. How have those helped you thus far? ![Help Your Daughter Avoid Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Help-Your-Daughter-Avoid-Abuse.webp "Help Your Daughter Avoid Abuse")## Avoid Teenage Abuse: Focus On Your Own Goals **Lucy:** Yeah, so actually I’ve never dated before. **Anne:** You have not been able to implement your list yet. **Lucy:** But also, I’m not looking to date right now either. Like, I’m not looking for a relationship. You know, I’m 19. I’m Pursuing my surfing, my music, and all this other stuff. So like in the defense of men, I’m not on the search for a relationship right now. Not that I, you know, don’t want that in the future, but I just don’t think that needs to be my priority right now. **Anne:** I don’t know if it ever needs to be a priority. Yeah, and the reason I say that is because if you fill your own life with things that you love, and goals that you have. And someone comes along, and they are kind, they’re your friend, respectful, and all that. It would happen naturally. But actually seeking it out seems dangerous to me. Because it feels vulnerable when you’re trying to find something, when you feel like you’re lacking something. https://www.btr.org/husband-is-holding-me-back/ Because it’s very easy for someone to step into that place and say, oh, well, I can be that for you. They may or may not have those qualities. And so it’s a vulnerable place to try and go look for something. This may be a way your boyfriend or [husband could hold you back.](https://www.btr.org/husband-is-holding-me-back/ "husband could hold you back.") I think it’s much safer to live your own life, hold your head up and focus on your own goals. **Lucy:** I agree with all that, yeah, 100%. ![This is Emotional Abuse!](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/RAn_v3i6AvM/maxresdefault.jpg) ## Red Flags To End A Relationship **Anne:** Knowing you haven’t dated before, if that came about for you. Let’s just say you began dating. What red flags would make you end a relationship? While you’re avoiding teenage abuse. Are those same things on your list, or do you have other things? **Lucy:** No, so the ones I just talked about and went over are more so ones that would make me put my guard up and maybe hold back a little bit. Things that I would just look out for. But not necessarily end it right there and then. Because you know, there are different situations and scenarios, as dating progresses. What red flags would I look out for? I’ve got five that I wrote down. I’ve got a lot of red flags. #### Red Flag 1: Addictions & Mental Health **Lucy:** So number one if he has addictions that are undealt with. And current, whether that’s alcohol addiction, pornography addiction, drug use or smoking or anything like that. And also an untreated mental illness, such as bipolar or a personality disorder or something like that. **Anne:** So you may not know, right? They might have an addiction or personality disorder, or they might just be abusive and blame it on that stuff. This is what to look out for in [narcissistic abuse.](https://www.btr.org/narcissistic-abuse/ "narcissistic abuse.") [ ![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad2) ](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078159) **Lucy:** Yeah. **Anne:** So that’s something to think about. That like, if somebody has a personality disorder or addiction, you might not find out about it for years or you may never find out about it. **Lucy:** Yeah, even talking to other women who have dealt with a man with addictions. And talking to other women and people who know the signs. I think it is a good thing to do to ensure you see the signs of somebody with an addiction. Hearing from other people who have dealt with that. #### Red Flag 2: Lack of Control **Lucy:** And number two is that he does not have control over his sex drive. And this is like culture like, what? That’s impossible, you know what I mean? But, I believe pornography is one of the most devastating things ever hitting humanity. And I could go on and on about this topic alone. Genuinely, people’s lack of self control over their urges has caused more destruction in my life than anything else. So if a man watches it or has a history of watching it and has not seriously addressed it and recovered from that, that is a deal breaker for me. Because I can’t have any more destruction in my life caused by that specific thing. So that is a huge one for me. It’s not popular but … **Anne:** Talk about that. Because you’re on TikTok and a surfer. So you’re in your swimsuit, because that’s what you wear when you’re a surfer. And you’re 19 and super cute. So talk about what kind of pushback you get on TikTok for having that stance. **Lucy:** Honestly, not a lot. I haven’t posted a lot on this specifically. One reason is because TikTok takes down videos that are too harsh or whatever, which is annoying. But the video I posted about dating and my standards, I honestly, got more positive comments than negative. #### Red Flag 3: Toxic Relationships **Lucy:** So number three, If a man remains in a toxic relationship with other people, such as friends, work partners, or family. And if he’s close to dangerous, narcissistic, abusive people. Because that always affects the people they’re close to. So, unless he has set very firm boundaries. To keep both him and the woman he’s interested in safe from that toxic, abusive person, that is also a deal breaker. ## Lucy’s Influences and Teen Abuse Red Flag List Creation **Anne:** Did your mom help you or are these things you just came up with? Talk about how you came up with these lists to avoid abuse. **Lucy:** No, she didn’t help me write these specifically, as I was in my kitchen writing them down. But she and I have a lot of juicy conversations about all these types of stuff. So I feel like we kind of balance ideas off each other. So did she help me specifically write these down? No, but yes, she did absolutely impact my view on all this. And she helped me and gave me ideas if I missed something. She said like, oh you should add this or that, and I was like, oh, you’re right. I have so much to say on this stuff. So it was pretty easy for me to come up with some juicy opinions. **Anne:** I’m 45 when I was 19, my list was like, he’s cute. He is active in my church. He wants to have a good job. And he’s not abusive. That was about it. Just like a general, like, he’s not a jerk kind of stuff. But trying to figure out who was a jerk and who wasn’t a jerk was more difficult, because I didn’t understand gaslighting. I didn’t understand grooming, manipulation and all the other stuff. It was easy to see who was an obvious jerk. It was harder to see, and it is for women of all ages. All the women listening to this podcast are like, yeah, it’s harder to see grooming when they have a goal. It’s almost impossible to view it for what it is unless you know what you’re looking for. And also that you give it time to observe and don’t listen to their words. ## Differences Between A Nice Guy & A Good Guy **Lucy:** You know, there’s a difference between a nice guy and a good guy. And I learned that a while ago. Sometimes a guy can act nice, but there are important aspects to a good guy that make him dateable and honestly marriage material. **Anne:** My sister’s husband is a good guy. I respect him. He’s a good dad. He’s a good husband, but he doesn’t strike people anywhere as nice, but she married him at age 19. **Lucy:** Yeah. **Anne:** I’ve thought about that quite a bit. Like his top priority is his wife and his kids. And he’s not so worried about, you know, what people at church think of him or he’s nice at his job. I’m not saying he’s like a jerk, but image management and making sure people think he’s a good guy is not even on his radar. **Lucy:** Yeah, I love that. And I know men like that. I can totally resonate with what you’re saying. Because I know a handful of good men who aren’t bubbly and huggy. But they’re actually genuinely good men behind closed doors and with their wives and family, **Anne:** And for women in abusive relationships, it’s the opposite. They go out and their husband is nice. And everyone thinks he’s a great guy, but behind closed doors, things are off, and he might even be “nice” at home. But he’s lying and manipulating. So it doesn’t feel right, even if he’s not screaming and yelling or something like that. So you had a video go viral. ## Avoid Teenage Abuse: Viral Video & Dating Standards **Anne:** In that video, you shared why you aren’t willing to settle for less than you deserve in a partner. Why do you think that video went viral? **Lucy:** I think my views on dating and my standards and boundaries are pretty drastic for this day and age. I think a lot of people hear my standards and opinions on dating, and they think I’m ridiculous. That I expect too much, and specifically expect too much out of boys and men. I think people are also thirsty for a new take and opinion on dating, because over 50 percent of marriages end in divorce. That’s a scary statistic. I mean, that’s one out of two. I think clearly we’re doing something wrong. Because relationships don’t always work out, and it’s sad to see. So I think ultimately that video did well, because I think deep down, we all want that kind of relationship that lasts. And believe in that original plan for men and women to live wholly fulfilling lives. And I think deep down, all people want that. So I don’t think people have high standards going into dating, and I think that sets them up for failure. I heard something once that said, if you don’t believe in anything, you fall for anything. And this is such a sexualized culture, I mean explicit material, masturbation, it’s all so normalized now. And so to hear somebody talk about self control, it’s like, wait, what? That’s a thing? So yeah, I don’t think people think about it that much about standards and, like, going into it in a holy way. ## Religious Standards **Anne:** Are you religious? **Lucy:** I am, yeah. **Anne:** Christian? **Lucy:** Yeah, I’m a Christian. **Anne:** Do you feel like other Christians your age feel that way, or do they just talk the talk? But they don’t actually believe it, or what’s your thought about that? **Lucy:** I think people in the Christian worlds and secular worlds are doing something wrong, too, unfortunately. And I think many Christians do talk the talk and not walk the walk, like you said, which is sad. Which makes teenage abuse more prevalent. So culture’s gonna hate this one. My biggest piece of advice for that is, be very slow to be intimately involved. It is a very bonding act, and even just physical affection in general. I think it is really bonding, and when you’re discerning whether a man is a safe partner. I don’t think you need that kind of attachment getting in your way. **Anne:** I totally agree. Those of us who have been in abusive relationships. I saw some red flags, I did not know how to process them. I wasn’t capable of saying like, oh, this is abuse. It was more like, oh, he’s grumpy and this is happening. It’s weird. And so I attributed it to stress. I wasn’t capable of processing it correctly. Now, after enough time with him realizing, wait a minute. He’s still acting like this. So that must not have been the reason, right? Like it took me a long time to figure it out. So many women who listen to this podcast have been married for 10, 20, 30 years. ## Avoid Teenage Abuse: It Is Hard To Figure Out Emotional & Psychological Abuse **Anne:** Mine was seven. My ex actually was arrested before I figured out what was going on. And so knowing that you may get involved in an abusive relationship because these things are hard to process. He may have [covert narcissist traits](/covert-narcissist-traits/). Or they’re hard to understand, or perceive. It’s okay if you find yourself in this situation. It’s not okay for you. The abuse is not okay. I’m not trying to say, it’s okay to be abused. I’m trying to say, don’t blame yourself. Don’t feel bad, right? Think, oh, now I can see this, now I can process this, and now I know what to do. Now I know I can just separate myself from this type of harm and get myself to safety. So it could be psychological, emotional, or coercion, whatever it is. But knowing that these things take time to discover, I married my ex five months after meeting him online. And I’d only known him two months in person. It seemed like a dream come true, and it was not. But I also know of women who dated their abusive husbands for years, like a year or two, before they got married. And everything seemed okay, and then they married, and it wasn’t. So knowing that you could do everything you can and still might end up in an abusive situation. And that it’s still not your fault. It’s never your fault if you’re abused. **Lucy:** Absolutely, yeah, you’re never in the wrong for somebody else abusing you. Absolutely, these are just tools to help. People hopefully avoid it. Some of these guys are master manipulators. ## Taking The Time To Make Sure **Lucy:** It’s scary, and I’m not above it. I’ve been manipulated. I’ve been lied to. And sometimes you just leave a relationship feeling like, how did I fall for that? You know, how was I so blind? And in the end, you’re never wrong for caring. You’re never wrong for wanting to believe the best in somebody. They broke your trust. They did you wrong. That’s on them always. **Anne:** I got married when I was 31, so at that point I was like, I know I’m not going to marry an abuser. I thought I asked all the right questions. You can try to avoid abuse, but be unsuccessful. And then when it turned out he was, I felt really stupid. I asked him about pornography. I asked about all the things, and I thought I was marrying a good guy. And then when I found out he wasn’t, I felt really dumb. But I was lied to and manipulated, and that was not my fault. However, had I taken more time and not been in such a hurry, I may have been able to see it a little more. So that is something to be said. **Lucy:** Yeah, and that’s also why I think it’s important to check their phone histories, to have their passcodes. And to randomly check their internet access, because people lie. You cannot take the word of these people, because trust is built over the span of years, proving to you that they’re trustworthy. The day and age where you can just take somebody’s word for it after a month of knowing them. Even if you feel like you trust them. People are so good at manipulating, and you have to be extra careful and go that extra step to make sure. ## Avoid Teen Abuse: Advice For Parents **Anne:** That probably was always the case. The 50, 45 and 70 year old women listening to this podcast. They also needed to know. I think it’s always been the case. Today, the thing that has exploded is their capacity to lie because of phones and devices. They’re much more capable of carrying on a double life or having a secret basement with explicit material or affairs. It’s easier today than ever. They don’t have to slink out of the house at three o’clock in the morning to pick up a magazine at the triple X store. They can access it on their phones. That has changed. From your perspective, is there anything you think parents should know to help their children who are dating? **Lucy:** I don’t have a lot to say on this. You know, as a person who’s not a parent, I don’t want to give advice that I’m not sure will work, but I will say this. If you have a child and they have a device with internet, a cell phone, computer, or a video game of some kind. You’ve gotta have the passcodes to their devices and check them regularly. Because, like I said before, kids can get into so much trouble and live different lives that their parents have no idea about. So you need access to what they’re into. That’s just the way it’s got to be. **Anne:** I’m so grateful that you’re sharing your thoughts with us. You’re living your best life. It’s exciting, I’m excited for you. It sounds like you’ve got a good foundation to deal with anything that comes your way. **Lucy:** Thank you, yeah. Thanks so much. I appreciate that. Thank you for having me. This was so much fun. **Categories:** Betrayal Trauma, Podcast --- ### [Divorcing A Narcissist - June Checks In One Year Later](https://www.btr.org/divorcing-a-narcissist/) **Published:** September 17, 2024 **Author:** Anne **Excerpt:** Divorcing a narcissist is a nightmare. June provides compelling updates one year after sharing the first part of her story. **Content:** Divorcing a narcissist is a nightmare. Anne Blythe, M.Ed. continues her heartfelt conversation with June from the BTR Community one year after she shared the first part of her story. Here the next chapter of her journey divorcing a narcissist. If you need support while experiencing narcissistic abuse, learn about [BTR Group Sessions here](https://www.btr.org/group/ "BTR Group Sessions here"). > **This episode follows June’s Story:** > Part 1: [*He Blamed Me for the Emotional Abuse – June* Checks in One Year Later](https://www.btr.org/blamed-me-for-the-emotional-abuse/) > Part 2: Divorcing A Narcissist – June’s Story Part 2 (*THIS EPISODE)* ## Transcript: Divorcing A Narcissist ![Leaving a Narcissist Husband](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Leaving-A-Narcissist-Husband.webp "Leaving a Narcissist Husband")#### June’s One-Year Follow-Up: Divorcing A Narcissist Anne: I checked in with June one year later to see how she was doing. This interview happened one year after the episode you heard last week, but still a long time ago. You’ll hear my today voice popping in from time to time talking about [The Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) that I developed years after this time. I actually use these strategies and tools to [completely deliver me and my kids from abuse](https://www.btr.org/long-term-effects-of-emotional-abuse-in-relationships/ "completely deliver me and my kids from abuse") without going to court. If you didn’t hear the beginning of June’s story last week, listen to that first. It’s called [He Blamed Me for the Emotional Abuse June story part one](https://www.btr.org/blamed-me-for-the-emotional-abuse/ "He Blamed Me for the Emotional Abuse June story part one"). Then come back and listen to this interview, which we did one year later. Welcome June. It’s been a year since we spoke. How are things going for you one year later? ![Be Prepared for a Smear Campaign After Your Divorce of a Narcissist](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Divorcing-A-Narcissist-Will-Result-in-a-Smear-Campaign.png "Divorcing a Narcissist Will Result in a Smear Campaign")June: We left off last time going through the court process of the custody issues and the divorce proceedings. We have since concluded at least custody for now because my husband appealed the custody from the family court and he appealed it to the circuit court, which in my state is the next higher court. It took us six to nine months to get into the circuit court to have that case heard. That was an eye opening experience for me. I feel like we’ve had all of these issues, divorcing a narcissist is horrible. All of this bad behavior, all of this conflict between us and it really hasn’t been between us. It’s been him finding the gray areas in the order and exploiting those in ways that might be small and minor, but when you add them all up, it takes its toll. ## Experiences With Her Ex’s Divorce Demands There shouldn’t be any changes, or at least any big changes. Get this part over with and we can move on. In the circuit court, it was just a different experience. The judge had a lot less patience. The judge labeled the conflict as marital [fighting and just conflict between my husband](https://www.btr.org/why-wont-my-husband-fight-for-our-marriage/) and I rather than abuse. That is very, very problematic. I brought two witnesses. The judge didn’t want to hear from them, so he didn’t hear from them at all, which was a problem. I can say I’m happy with the outcome. For the most part, the custody didn’t change too much. A lot more freedom, discretion and leeway are in the order. In The BTR Community, that translates to a lack of boundaries in our new order. I know that will be a problem. ![Will a Narcissist Continue Abusing Me Even After We Have Divorced](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Will-A-Narcissist-Continue-Abusing-ME-Even-After-We-Separation.png "Will a Narcissist Continue Abusing Me Even After We Separate")It already has been a problem. That’s what I’m dealing with right now. Currently it is just an order for custody. I’m still the primary parent. I have the kids 75% of the time, which is great. I feel that my influence on the kids and having a safe and stable home environment for them and a connected parenting relationship with them is super important. When they’re going through this, their dad does get a certain amount of days each month and it’s when he wants to see them. He can get a certain amount of days. That creates a bit of a problem. ## Husband’s Narcissistic Behavior Anne: We’re personal friends, so we talk a lot about this. One of the things that surprises me, and I’d like to know how you feel about it, is that so many of the things that your soon to be ex does are just not smart. He doesn’t seem smart at all. He seems narcissistic, clueless, and way more confident in his own abilities than he actually is. At the same time, he can exploit all these little areas of the law and he actually is really smart at the same time. He is a doctor, he’s not a dummy. How do you reconcile this crazy, nonsensical, irrational behavior and all of the bad choices that he makes with this ability to exploit the law in a way that works for him? This is a huge part of divorcing a narcissist. He’s sort of like this evil genius kind of thing. How do you feel about that? ![Will a Narcissist Continue Abusing Their Ex Even After Divorce](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Will-A-Narcissist-Continue-Abusing-Even-After-We-Separate.png "Will a Narcissist Continue Abusing Even After We Separate")June: I definitely feel that is such an accurate representation of reality of what is going on. There are times that I feel his chaos and disorganization is really, really to his detriment. Obviously it is to the detriment of the kids. It affects them. It’s chaotic. He can’t show up for appointments on time, he can’t get the kids to where they need to be on time. He won’t return things that they need, important things. For instance, when has the kids on vacation, the court order says that the kids call me on the middle day at a certain time. Up to this date, I have never received that phone call at a certain time. ## Concerns Children’s Safety He does not let me talk to them. Honestly, as a mother, as a person who he assaulted, as a person that is very well aware of the effects of trauma, abuse, narcissism and how those things all go together and create really the perfect storm. That could be disastrous. I worry about my kids during those times, I worry that he’s snapped, they are not okay and they’re not safe. I almost feel like it’s happened so much at this point it’s purposeful. He must know that I worry and that’s why he does it, the control. He’s definitely spiraling. ![Will a Narcissist Continue to Abuse Me Even After We Get Divorced](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Will-A-Narcissist-Continue-Abusing-ME-Even-After-We-Get-Divorced.png "Will a Narcissist Continue Abusing Me Even After We Get Divorced")I’ve had several people in the community come and tell me that they have seen problematic behavior from him. People tell me that they have heard things that have happened at his previous workplace. I’ve had two people tell me that they’ve heard that he assaulted a female in his previous workplace. He has since lost his job because he missed several days of work, missed shifts and didn’t show up on time. There were several other people that complained of his treatment of patients, how he was medically treating them. Some of that is also really an indication of his unhealthiness Anne: Because with a lot of abusive men, they pick and choose. They’re very together at their job at church, they look really good. At home is [when they lose their temper,](https://www.btr.org/what-to-do-when-you-are-mad-at-your-husband/ "when they lose their temper,") they don’t lose it anywhere else. It’s a display of control at home. You’re saying his dysfunction is starting to leak out into his public persona? ## Narcissistic Dysfunction June: Yes, the dysfunction definitely is. Now that is something different than the anger and abuse. I even feel like sometimes he uses the dysfunction as a ploy to get people to feel sorry for him. He’s this broken down dad that just wants his kids so much and he’s just floundering without them Anne: He’s a single dad and it’s so hard for him because he is a victim. ![What Emotional Abuse Victims Think At First - It Will Surprise You](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/tVUVAwZzedU/maxresdefault.jpg) June: Yes, and I feel like that’s very much what’s going on now. On dating sites, for example, He’s on all the dating sites. He clearly says, I’m a single dad. Here’s a bunch of pictures of my kids, and by the way, I have my kids 50/50. Somehow that’s supposed to mean that he is a better dad or people can trust him more, Anne: But that’s a lie. He doesn’t have them 50/50. June: That is a lie. He does not have them 50/50. Anne: Mine says the same thing. He’s got these pictures of him as a dad and he’s also got this Christian for life, I love Jesus stuff going on on his dating profiles. Okay, but he doesn’t obey the commandments, whatever. I think that’s really interesting because if he did start dating someone, they would soon see that he didn’t have them 50/50. He’s really not setting himself up for a good relationship. June: Exactly right. I think that a lot of these guys see mechanisms that can give them instant trust. Yes, being a Christian is one thing that can give them instant trust. Being a single dad is one thing that can give them instant trust with whoever their next person will be. ## Financial Revelations In Divorcing A Narcissist Another thing that I found very interesting in court this past time is that we were going over support of course, because that’s all wrapped up in custody. He testified that his church, my church, has been paying for his mortgage and car payment and that is almost $2,000 a month. This person is a doctor. He makes $24,000 a month, well over $300,000 a year. He said the church paid for his expenses because he is so broke. That he cannot even pay for these things. In preparation my lawyer subpoenaed all of his bank records, all of his pay stubs, everything like that, all of the financials. The intern went through it and categorized things by item. It turns out that he has spent thousands of dollars on liquor, hundreds of dollars on pornography. ![Divorcing a Narcissist is Actually Not High Conflict It is Abuse](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Divorcing-A-Narcissist-Is-Actually-Not-High-Conflict-It-Is-Abuse.png "Divorcing a Narcissist is Actually Not High Conflict It is Abuse")Anne: When we say liquor, I just want the audience to know that June’s soon to be ex and June are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Alcohol is something they do not do. His clergy is paying his house payment while this man is going out and buying alcohol, which is really, really a big deal. June: And he had contributed tens of thousands of dollars into his own retirement during this time that the church was paying for his expenses Anne: Acting like, oh, I’m going through so much help me. Right? ## Financial Status Of Narcissistic Husband June: And my ex-wife took all of my money. Really anyone that has gone through the courts would know. It’s a straight calculation. After this, I became very, very disturbed. I know the process, a little bit of receiving church welfare. My dad was a bishop. He had to help people meet their urgent and emergent needs on occasion. I began to really think, I need to know the story of this. I need to know how far this went. The bishop was the same bishop that was spiritually abusive to me. This bishop had very, very clearly taken aside. Financially he had even taken a side in this divorce where he chose to support my husband and not me. He is paying these expenses, thousands of dollars a month for these things. ![is It Post Separation Abuse or Just Part of Divorcing a Narcissist](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Is-Post-Separation-Abuse-Just-Part-of-Divorcing-A-Narcissist.png "is Post Separation Abuse Just Part of Divorcing a Narcissist")He has really enabled him to continue legal abuse and also continue really unhealthy behaviors and to pay for those. Anne: If he had been paying you the $2,000 a month, you could have purchased groceries. I mean it’s crazy. Sorry, just for our listeners, steam and fire is coming out of my ears right now. June: Really if he had just paid his own mortgage and his own car payment, then maybe he would not have as much money to pay his lawyer. Then we could move on and get everything wrapped up and not be in constant legal battle Anne: And not have to go to the next higher court up and all that business. ## Seeking Support For Divorcing A Narcissist June: Exactly. I became very alarmed, like I said, and as soon as court was over, I began my research. In my research, I reached out to the congregation that he currently attends. The leader of it, a bishop, by this point the previous bishop had been released from that position. A new bishop was put in Anne: For listeners who are not familiar, all of the clergy in the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints are volunteers. Someone is asked or called to be the leader of the congregation for a period of usually around three to five years. Then a new volunteer is called and it just rotates around. You’re saying that the old bishop was released and a new volunteer bishop was called? ![Post Separation Abuse Really Happens After Leaving a Narcissist](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Will-the-Abuse-Stop-After-I-Divorce-A-Narcissist.png "Will the Abuse Stop After I Divorce a Narcissist")June: Exactly. I felt safe reaching out to this new bishop because he was not the same one that I spoke about on the earlier podcasts who was very spiritually abusive. To this new bishop and to the leader above him, which is a stake president, and to the area authority, the person above him just to get some answers. I had emailed a couple times with no response and explained the situation in emails. I just wasn’t getting any response. And so I just kept kind of adding more people to these emails, trying to get some sort of answers on how long has this been going on? The thing that really concerned me is that I didn’t verity anything. Because we are married, I am still the property owner on things that the church paid. ## Deciding To Meet With New Clergy I’m still on the loan for the house. I’m still on the loan for the car that is still legally my property and nothing was verified with me. In that process I learned mine and my children’s records had been transferred back to that congregation. Anne: When June says records, I am so sorry for people who are like, we don’t want to know the workings of your church. The it will help understand the context of why this is such a big deal. That’s why we’re explaining it. The congregations are set up in geographical areas, you do not choose what congregation you go to. It’s called a ward, each congregation has a boundary to it. You can have your records transferred in or out depending on your situation. What she is saying is that she had her records transferred out with the impending divorce and that the records were back with that congregation where her soon to be ex is going. Where your records are is where you attend church, so you find out that your records are in his congregation. ![Post Separation Abuse is Real After Divorcing a Narcissist](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Post-Separation-Abuse-Is-Just-Part-of-Divorcing-A-Narcissist.png "Post Separation Abuse is Just Part of Divorcing a Narcissist")June: Upon finding that out, I just set up a meeting with the bishop because I figure, Anne: Oh, he’s my bishop, right? This is my congregation. Yeah, he’s my bishop now. June: Yes. I set up a meeting, I went and talked to him. I brought up the misuse and misappropriation of fast offerings, which are tithes in a way. It’s like a collection plate in another church or another religion. I brought this up to the bishop. ## Meeting With Clergy About Divorcing A Narcissist I told him I have documentation of the discretionary spending that the church would not approve of. Why is a man that is making $300,000 a year receiving this assistance when I know for a fact that we have people living in dire poverty in the congregation. We met for about an hour. The bishop listened to me. He stated that he doesn’t know when this started, but that he did make a couple of payments for my husband. He did not verify any of this because he felt like there was a need and he just took him at face value. I also talked to him about the history and the abuse, the betrayal, the trauma, the assault, all of those things. And he was very gracious to listen and we had a very, very good discussion. I felt very, very hopeful after meeting with him. We talked about how to deal with some of these behaviors of my husband and if this bishop had any interest in doing that because it was never dealt with. ![a Narcissist Will Continue Abusing Even After the Divorce is Final](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/A-Narcissist-Will-Continue-Abusing-Even-After-Divorce.png "a Narcissist Will Continue Abusing Even After Divorce")Anne: You mean like a church court or holding boundaries or some things like that? June: Yes, but now that I’m in the ward and my children’s records are in the ward, how to navigate that situation, Anne: Especially if you have a protective order. June: I did., yes. He said he really didn’t know anything about the situation or anything like that. He said that he was more interested in current things that were happening, current abuse. So I described some situations and post-separation abuse, post-divorce abuse is a lot harder to really identify. It can just look like someone just being a jerk to the other parent. Describing what it’s like while divorcing a narcissist is difficult. ## Protective Orders & Church Policies While Divorcing A Narcissist I did describe situations of my husband swearing at me at drop off in exchange, purposely keeping the kids from talking to me. Situations that I would say are very much in this gray area that one or two things by themselves don’t really do anything. I said, I’ve been living this for over two years and I can tell you it’s just repeated abuse. It’s just in a different form. It was very interesting to hear his take on that. I asked him what kind of training he received for dealing with abuse and trauma. He said that he has the spirit and that’s the training. Anne: Yeah. Oh my gosh. Because narcissists seem like they’re telling the truth and so it unquote feels right. Yes. ![a Narcissist Will Continue Abusing Even After You Have Divorced Him](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/A-Narcissist-Will-Continue-Abusing-Even-After-You-Divorce.png "a Narcissist Will Continue Abusing Even After You Divorce")**June:** I tried to gently push back on that a little, and I just said, okay, but you realize that when you gave him this money, you would’ve had that same discernment, the spirit and it didn’t work right. You understand that, and I could see the wheels were turning. I could see that he was thinking about that. I also took in the policy on abuse. The church has come out with a policy, I think it was in March of 2018, and it’s very, very clear. There’s a very clear directive that abuse is not to be tolerated. That people who come reporting abuse in any form should be believed and that false accusations are just not the norm. In fact, they are very, very rare. And so I really came with that policy in hand ## Conversations About Repentance & Church’s Role **Anne:** Before you go on, the false accusations are usually from the abuser, right? The abuser is usually saying, I was abused. June: I could refer to it at different points in our conversation. I said, now that I’m reporting this, is it your intention to look into this and to handle it in a way that is conducive with the church’s own policy? Again, I felt like he probably had good intentions, but he said, well, yes, I’ll bring him in here and I’ll talk to him. Every story has two sides. Anne: The abuser is never going to be like, oh yeah, I was the abuser. And then he is going to say, okay, then let’s go forward with the policy. If the abuser goes in and says, no, that’s not what happened. She’s the abuser. Then they’re just left confused and they’re like, well, I don’t know what to do and I don’t know what this policy means now, June: And this is where I feel like the behaviors of my husband and the acting really come into play. ![Will a Narcissist Continue Abusing Even After a Separation or Divorce](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/Will-I-Still-Have-to-Deal-With-Narcissistic-Abuse-Even-After-We-Separation.png "Will I Still Have to Deal with Narcissistic Abuse Even After We Separation")Anne: You mean his hypocritical slash, I’m the victim slash, I’m a good guy stuff. June: Yes. I described this actually for the bishop, I said, I was married to this person for over a decade. This always goes the same way. I said, he will come in here and he will say, I’m so sorry, I just feel so horrible and I’m just damaged. I said, then he will start crying, and my husband is a very big guy. To see a grown man cry is shocking. Because it is so shocking, we think, oh my gosh, this is so shocking. ## Telling Clergy About Husband’s Narcissism He must be in complete and utter turmoil. Then because we’re distracted in our thinking and not centering on the subject matter of what we wanted to talk to him about, it kind of gets swept under the rug, and that’s that. I said, I’ve seen him do this so many times **Anne:** He also starts blaming you and telling him how abusive you were and all the bad things you did, but if you haven’t listened, she ended up with a night in jail. So I’m sure then he pulls that out. She went to jail. Because he has [covert narcissist traits](/covert-narcissist-traits/). [![Learn More about BTR Group Sessions](https://www.btr.org/wp-content/uploads/BTR-In-content-Ad-4x6-orig-1.jpg?rb=in-content-ad1)](https://www.btr.org/group/?utm_source=website&utm_medium=in-content-ad&utm_content=24078146) June (00:21:35): That I kidnapped the kids. Remember the arrest has now been expunged, and so legally I do not have to say that I have been arrested anymore, but usually to build my credibility, I’m very upfront with that. There’s not a lot of shame there for me at all anymore. So I really did tell the bishop that I was very concerned because not only does he come in here and act like this, but he’s also looking like it. He looks disheveled and remember people are telling me he doesn’t look so good. I said, everything that you’re seeing and that you’re hearing will be telling you that, oh yeah, maybe he does have a plausible story. Maybe this is the truth. That is what I think is so harmful about this situation in particular, is that he is using his own unhealthiness as a means to be able to prove his story. ## Advising Clergy To Ask Victim About Repentance That he is so despondent and just in despair at what has happened when that is not the truth. I was very clear also, I told the bishop, I will be the first person to know of true repentance by my husband. I will be the first person to see it, I will be able to see and clearly be able to identify change behavior. Anne: If you want to know if someone’s repented, ask the victim. June: Yes. I got into a really important discussion with him about that, and I’m so glad that I did because I asked him, how do you assess for repentance? How do you assess change in behavior? Do you ask the victim? Do you ask the person that it was directed to? He said, well, yeah, of course we would. Anne: But you’re like, but they never have have with me. June: Exactly. Anne: From all the women in our community. I can’t remember one of them being asked when they’re still married and they’re both in the same congregation. If they’re in a separate congregation, they don’t call the victim. June: Exactly. I had a really important discussion with him about that. I also said that at one point in the marriage with a previous bishop, this was a completely different bishop that my husband had admitted to infidelity and that we had gone to the bishop. We were trying to work through it. This was sort of at the codependent phase of my process Anne: When you were doing the codependent stuff. June: I was doing the codependent thing with my husband and really trying to connect, thinking the more that we could connect, the less that he would have these behaviors. ## Anger & Its Legitimacy In Divorcing A Narcissist Anne: The more you attach to your abuser, the less he would abuse you during that stage. June: We did go to the bishop several years ago, and this bishop actually did call him to a church disciplinary council, and it was very small. It was just talking to a few of the leaders about the nature of the harm that was done. At the time this bishop said, I would invite you to come, but I feel that you’re just too upset and too angry, and there is no place for that there. Anne: What? There’s no place for the victim to tell her experience. June: Yes, there’s no place for your anger within the council because it’s a council of love and we want to be able to feel the spirit. Anne: Oh, you don’t have any right to be angry and your anger is unjustified basically. This is so crazy. June: I didn’t end up going at all. Like I said, this was several years ago. I didn’t end up going. I relied solely on my husband to tell me what the outcome of that particular event was. He said that the brethren had prayed about it and everyone had the spiritual experience that he was changed and that there was to repentance. I still kind of wonder what actually happened. Anne: Yeah, you don’t know what went down. June: I don’t know. I told my current bishop that I felt like that was harmful. The more that I’ve proceeded and progressed in my own healing, the more that I have recognized anger is such a healthy thing. ## Understanding Divorcing A Narcissist Issues Anne: Is totally normal. How else would you be? June: Exactly. It’s completely normal. And I said it even kept me safe. It kept me safe from being with this person intimately, emotionally, physically, spiritually. It kept me safe at that time, and that is the only thing that kept me safe. Anne: Yeah, because you sure weren’t doing it. June: Exactly. Like I said, I didn’t realize it at the time because I was in this codependent model of therapy. Anne: We’ve all been there. June: I told this current bishop that the anger that I was labeled with and that being harmful was really, really nothing compared to the harm that I had suffered. In my marital vows being betrayed and in putting my unborn child at risk. I was 37 weeks pregnant at the time that my husband was intimate with another person, all of these lies, deceptions, betrayals and, of course, I would be angry. Of course, I would be so upset and distraught and everything else. We had another discussion about legitimate anger and I said, I don’t see anger as a bad emotion. No emotion is bad. They just have different purposes and different meanings. Anne: Well, and it also depends on what caused it. If your abusive perceptions of the woman who should make the meal are causing your anger. Then she doesn’t make the meal and that’s why you’re getting mad. The abusive perceptions are what’s causing the anger rather than healthy perceptions. I think it also depends on if your perceptions are coming from a healthy place or if your perceptions are coming from an entitled, objectification, power, control, and manipulation place too. ## Discussion Of Legitimacy Of Anger In Divorce June: If they come from that place, that means that is abuse. I would say the abuser who’s angry because he’s entitled to a hot meal and the wife didn’t get it together that day and he flies off the handle, that’s abuse. That is past the point of anger into abuse. Anne: For people who don’t know about abuse, they think, well, they’re both angry. They don’t recognize the difference between the two. Yeah, June: Exactly. We had another really important discussion of that mechanism of abuse and violence really, and betrayal trauma. I took the time to educate him a little bit on betrayal, trauma on how women feel in this situation and how devastating it is and how expendable if felt. When the betrayals reached a point for me that my boundary was divorce and separation. Not to mention I was unsafe, I was assaulted and that was just a boundary for me that I had to do what I did. I tried to explain that to him, I felt like it was eye opening. I felt like it was a good conversation. Anne: It was eye opening for you or him? June: I felt like it was eye opening for him. I had this conversation about a week ago. It’s difficult to describe what it’s like divorcing a narcissist Anne: It’s been a week, but my guess is that over time he’ll ponder it and he’ll either move closer to the truth and he’ll get softer toward you and more protective of you, and he’ll set more boundaries around him. Or he’ll get farther away from the truth, start treating you worse and start treating the abuser better. It’s going to go one way or the other. ## Church’s Financial Assistance Policies The more he ponders it, he’s either going to start making excuses for the falsities and dig himself deeper that way, or he’s going to get better. Only time will tell. June: Exactly. He did say that it’s very clear that he needs to speak with my husband, and he said it’s clear that he does not feel like giving him any more assistance would be appropriate without verifying and looking at his financials closer. It’s hard because in our particular religion, we have these donations set up for the needs of people, and I was always very happy to tithe and to give extra to help meet these needs. I was under the impression that there was kind of a requirement for this to be temporary, to help people in emergency situations, you get employment somewhere else, take a second job or something like that. Anne: Or in long-term situations with a widow for example, you would be a good candidate for a long-term situation. You’re a single mom of four. I would be a good candidate. Widows would be good candidates. It’s not that it’s always going to be short-term. There are going to be cases where it’s appropriate to have long-term help, but he’s not one of those guys. He’s not disabled, he’s not a widow, he’s not mentally or physically disabled except for with his narcissism. He’s a doctor. ## Most Painful Time Of Divorcing A Narcissist June: Exactly. Conversely, when you compare this to the time in our separation that I was so destitute because he had paid nothing in support for almost five months. I had gone to the bishop and asked for a couple of food orders, which the church has a really great welfare program for food where they deliver food to people in local congregations. I had asked for a couple of orders until wage garnishment could go through, and the Bishop gave me a couple of orders for me and the kids. Then all of a sudden cut me off completely and said, you don’t need this anymore. I’m not giving it to you anymore. I still hadn’t received any child support checks. I still hadn’t received any sort of support. The despair that I felt at that time when that happened is still so painful. It is still one of the most painful feelings that I could describe. I didn’t survive because the church helped me. I survived in spite of them not helping me. That has hurt me for years. Anne: When they’re simultaneously helping your abuser. June: Yes. Anne: Obviously not cutting him off. June: No, I tried to blow the whistle in my local congregation. At the same time I was doing this, I had also called church headquarters, got the name of someone that I could speak to in the auditing department, and I shared my story with them. They were horrified about my story. Anne: That’s great news. ## Don’t Know Ultimate Result Of Speaking Up June: It is great news. They did say that they’ve had problems in this area before that they would see about investigating it. It seems like I really kept running into these brick walls. And on top of that, it was everyone that I spoke to or had the chance to speak with, were men. They had never been in this situation. Anne: I want to tell a story here because you don’t know what the fruits of this will be. When I was a teacher, there was something that went down that was not right. I wrote the superintendent. I just wrote a really short email and said, Hey, this is going down. It’s not cool. I didn’t hear anything for probably six months. Then all of a sudden this superintendent showed up and had a meeting at our school with all of the teachers, and I was the facilitator of that meeting. I was the one who had brought it up in the first place. I had all of the teachers testify of what had happened. A couple of people resigned because of the email and because of what I did. I didn’t really see it immediately. A lot of women call somebody, they write somebody, they go to a meeting, they speak up and the person just looks at ’em weird and they’re like, that didn’t go well. You don’t know what the long-term effects of that will be. It might not be that someone resigns or that someone gets fired. It might not be that big, who knows? I don’t want this glazed over look that we get from male leadership, clergy, pastors, therapists, whoever it is to stop us from speaking unless we go in and have these meetings. ## Returning To Church As A Divorcing Woman Even though my guess is you were pretty terrified after all of the abuse that you’ve been through with clergy. I’m so proud of you and I want to encourage women. Our safety’s on the line, our emotional safety, our reputation. People call us crazy. People call us man haters. We need to keep speaking up. We will never know the extent of influence that we have. June: More than ever, I feel so strong about that. It is easy to get discouraged. It is very easy to say, well, they listened to me. They didn’t take action right away. That just means that they’re never going to, Anne: I don’t think that’s true. If enough of us went in and spoke, they would take action eventually. Maybe not tomorrow, maybe not next year. But if every woman who has been through this in every church or in every paradigm or with every single therapist spoke up, we could change the world. June: Yes. So after this all happened, I also made the decision to just start attending this congregation and it kind of came out of the blue today. I had someone invite me and I trusted this person and sat by her and I went, and I could not have had a more positive experience when I went to church today. Anne: For our listeners. She has been avoiding church. June: For years, for over two years.. Anne: In our church, if you don’t go, it’s sort of like you’re the guilty one. See, she’s the problem because she’s not coming to church. Victims are labeled with that all the time. ## Positive Experience With Church Members June: Since this happened, I’ve definitely dealt with my share of flying monkeys in the congregation, and that’s a term where people do the bidding and the dirty work of the narcissists by spreading rumors and lies and gossip. Let me tell you, all those people were there. I have done a lot of work. I’ve gone to the BTR groups, I’ve done guided [meditation and I have done all of this work](https://www.btr.org/free-betrayal-trauma-meditation/) on healing. I’ve read books today. I can say that I went there and I was really strong and felt for the most part, unaffected emotionally. I felt that my boundaries were my boundaries and that those people and what they say or what they think really didn’t have to affect me. And I do not for one second want to make it seem that we have a choice all the time for these things not to affect us. I am saying that healing takes time and that healing can happen. You can get to a place where it will be okay. It will be okay for you. Actually, my husband’s affair partner was also in the ward. Anne: Also your really good friend before he had an affair with her. June: Yes. My really good friend who was also in the ward, it was her mother who was teaching one of the lessons today. I was like, oh my goodness, what are the chances? But it was a wonderful lesson. It was on mental health challenges and the stigmatization that doesn’t need to happen. She taught the lesson. It was fantastic. I added some things because I work in the area of mental health. ## Verified Lies & Affair While Divorcing A Narcissist We got to talking and she didn’t know who I was and she wanted to know who I was. In the parking lot afterwards, I told her who I was. Anne: She’s probably heard horrific stories about you. She just didn’t know you were the one that she had heard these horrific stories about. June: Yes. I just said to her, I believe that your daughter and my husband had an affair. I said, I don’t want you to feel any way about it. I’m just telling you that I’m the wife. She said that she was very aware that they had a relationship and she didn’t know that he was still married. We kind of became friends and talked about our similar career interests. There is no way I could have had a conversation like that two years ago when this was fresh. There is no possible way. Today I had a conversation. It was a very difficult conversation with someone that I would’ve never dreamed I could have a conversation with before. It’s a lot like the conversation that I had with the bishop. I would’ve never dreamed I could have such an impactful and pleasant and peaceful conversation while saying exactly what I needed to say. Anne: This is also a testament to being away from your abuser for years, that you’re talking about it. You didn’t have as many boundaries. The manipulation and fog that they can create is really dark. The longer you set the boundaries for safety, emotional, physical, psychological, sexual safety. The longer you set those, not only do you get more and more out of the fog, so do other people. ## Setting Boundaries For Narcissistic Behaviors & Results June: Yes. And I feel that that has really been also a roadmap to trying to co-parent with a narcissist. We are still having major issues, major issues and issues where the kids’ safety has even been a concern. Issues of abusive things going on. The more that I am in these situations and the more that I just do not react and just set those boundaries, set the boundaries for safety, the more that I find it not affecting me as much. Now it’s hard because I do see some of this affecting the children, and that is a big challenge. It breaks my heart. They will use the children to hurt you when they can’t hurt you directly anymore. I feel that that is what is happening, that is horrifying. It’s horrifying. Anne: It is. Yeah. Well, and the boundaries you have to set are really rough too. For example, I set a boundary that my children go out in the clothes that they came in with. The reason I set that boundary is because he was stealing my clothes. I would send them out in nice clothes and he would send them back in hand me down rags from his family. I asked repeatedly, please send them back in the clothes I sent them out with. And he said, it’s impossible. He was like, well, you wash their clothes. He just did all these things. Finally, I just said, okay, I’ll send them back in the clothes you send them in. I saved some of his clothes from when they came back in their rags. One day I sent them out in his rags, and we’ve been doing that ever since. ## Discussing Boundaries While Divorcing A Narcissist It breaks my heart. My children do not want to put those rags on, and I don’t want to send them out of the house like that, but that is the boundary. I said, you guys, I’m so sorry. Your dad’s choices hurt everyone. They hurt me. They hurt you. I am sorry that you don’t have snow boots when you go to his house. That’s his job and I’m divorced from him. The challenges of divorcing a narcissist are immense. I don’t need to babysit him anymore or make sure that your needs are met when it’s his job to take care of you. It’s so hard to make those choices. I don’t think that women can start making these boundaries unless they have a lot of support. When I say support, I mean someone who understands this type of abuse to help them set the boundaries, because otherwise, that type of boundary seems really hard. I seem like I’m this awful, terrible person who’s sending my kids out in rags, and I had to make that decision based on assessing my values, assessing the consequences of his behavior to his own children. Do you think you could have set the boundaries that you set without The BTR Community without Betrayal Trauma Recovery? June: Definitely not. When I first started learning about boundaries, it was a foreign concept to me. I was never taught this growing up or my faith. I was never taught this in college even. It has really been a learning process. When I started learning about boundaries, I inevitably made mistakes along the way as everyone does. ## Support From BTR Group Sessions While Divorcing A Narcissist Anne: How did The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community help you progress in your knowledge and your application of those boundaries? June: I could come with a scenario. I could come with a real life problem and be directed into what my values were, what my boundaries should be around those values. What that ultimately looks like in practice and being supported, being supported in whatever boundary I chose. That was my boundary and I was going to be supported in that, and I knew I had backup, and that was huge. Anne: The other thing that’s so hard about boundaries is, let me read you this quote I just saw. So this is a line from ancient Sanskrit scripture. It says, you are only entitled to the action, never to its fruits, which I think is really good. That’s how boundaries are. And that’s why people are so afraid to set them, because you set a boundary and you have no idea what the consequences are going to be. You just have to know that what I’m doing is for my safety, and this is what feels right now. You can always adjust, I set that boundary and maybe that wasn’t the right thing to do. Next time I’ll do it differently. Right? Like you said, you’re going to make some mistakes. Things will need to adjust. My boundary that I set, I didn’t want to get divorced. ## Difficulty Communicating With A Liar I didn’t think divorce was going to be where that led, I needed no contact. I cannot have any semblance of communication with this person without him lying to me, manipulating me, trying to pull one over on me, nothing. There can be no communication without that. I didn’t know what the consequences would be. Some women set a boundary and their husband thinks, wow, I’ve been abusive. I’m sorry. We don’t know what the consequences are going to be. That is one thing that you need support for. You need support to know, even though this could lead to something awful or good. We have no idea, if we focus on the now and the safety in the moment, then it will always lead us down the right path. June: Exactly. Boundaries can change. When I first started in this process of going through litigation for custody it is expected that we co-parent and communicate. I took what that judge said very seriously. I would write detailed email updates every month with the kid’s appointments, how they were doing with pictures, all of these things to him and do it very quickly. This last court date, I found out that he used a lot of that against me. A lot of it was sadly very, very sadly used against me. This judge didn’t really care about that so much. He actually made a comment that these people are divorced. They’re not going to co-parent, who cares. While I am totally and willingly invested in co-parenting with a healthy person, I doubt very much that that can happen when divorcing a narcissist. Now I’m left renegotiating, alright, where does this leave me as far as communication and how much do I want to have? ## The BTR Living Free Workshop Helped Anne: Yeah. [The BTR Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/) teaches these tools and the phrases to use to ensure that the communication is safe and is leading towards safety. We found that these tools work whether or not you’re married or divorced or separated, these tools work no matter what stage you’re in. June: My emails to him are short, to the point, unemotional, straightforward and full of facts. That’s it, nothing else. Nothing else needs to be there. My communication is polite but brief. It is the communication that I would have with someone like a boss or a coworker or something like that. Anne: The reason why I love having women from our community on the podcast is because everyone can benefit from hearing other women’s stories. As you listen, if you relate and you would like to come on the podcast and share your story, please email us at podcast@btr.org. June: It’s very, very important. I can not stress this enough. It is so important for women in this situation to do research on divorcing a narcissist. A lot of these guys that have porn issues and infidelity issues, have narcissistic issues as well. You do not see that until, I often say, I was married. I could manage this behavior. I could manage him a little bit because I kind of knew how to work around these things. Anne: I’d say the same of me managing it. Yeah. ## Abuse Escalation While Divorcing A Narcissist June: Yes. A friend told me when I was being severely abused every day, verbally abused, emotionally abused, spiritually abused. She was aware of the situation. She even said to me, just make sure what is in your future because it can and it will get worse. At the time, I thought, there’s nothing that could be worse than going through this constant and daily abuse every single day. I felt like I was losing my mind, I didn’t know which end was up, I didn’t know reality. I had such a fog, fear, obligation, and guilt I was really, really just not a healthy person. Now I begin to see what she was talking about. Yes, the abuse is worse because now it is directed towards my children. Now it is directed within the community. Now it is directed in different ways that are so much harder to prove. It’s like if you went into court, do you think a judge is really going to care that he sends your kids in rags? Anne: No. June: I mean, the judge that I went to, he would say, get out of here, Anne: Or Why are you so judgy? Or whatever. That’s not the thing that I think is abusive. The abusive thing is stealing my clothes, not respecting anyone’s time and all those things. He has plenty of money. He could buy him boots or whatever, but he doesn’t. ## Manipulation Of Proceedings When Divorcing A Narcissist June: Right. And the thing is that I feel like a lot of the family court professionals, judges, things like that, have really been desensitized. They hear horrific cases of abuse. When a dad can’t get the kids somewhere on time or can’t return their clothes, it just does not register with them as the abuse that it is. It is abuse because we feel it. We know that. I think these things are purposeful because he knows no one’s going to care. He knows I care because I can’t afford to go out and buy a new coat every time that he forgets to return theirs. Anne: Exactly. Yeah. Well, you’ve got a doctor for an ex or soon to be ex, I have an attorney. June: Yes Anne: They know what they can and cannot do. And so they go right up to that line and they don’t cross it. June: Yes. And going back to your original point, that is very much within their realm and their playbook of abuse and narcissism. They know what they’re doing and they not only know, but they exploit that in a way that sometimes is unbelievable. It’s unbelievable. Yeah, I do feel like things have gotten worse, this is what happens when divorcing a narcissist. I have spent probably close to a hundred thousand dollars trying to get divorced. I’m still not divorced. That is the reality of divorcing a narcissist. That is the reality. Anne: That’s financial abuse. ## Escalation Of Abuse In Divorce Proceedings June: It is financial abuse. It’s legal abuse. It’s everything. Things are worse. The difference is that now I’m not in that constant state of abuse in my own home. I can deal with this other abuse. Now I feel like I can function. I am a functional adult. I’m not only surviving, but I am thriving despite all of this other abuse. It’s horrible, horrible abuse still, but I’m able to handle it. Anne: So you’re not finished with your divorce yet, but do you have some tips for our listeners? I want you to start way back with even listeners who are not thinking that divorce is in their future. Even listeners who are thinking, No, he seems to be understanding what I’m saying. He seems to be getting better because you and I both went through a phase where we thought, oh, things are getting better. He understands. I’m not saying that listeners who are in that phase are going to get to the divorce phase. Maybe he will continue to improve, and if so, both June and I are very happy for you. That’s great. We wish that would’ve happened for us and it didn’t. Let’s start there. Even for women in that phase, what tips do you have about what is coming, what to expect and things that you wish that you would’ve known? June: It would’ve been very helpful for me to know that really the natural progression of these cases when they are taken to court. If a dad goes back and asks for more time, whatever. Any information about divorcing a narcissist would be helpful. The court will oftentimes just give him a little bit more time. Like I said, my situation was that there has been all this bad behavior. ## Narcissistic Husband’s Lying in Court Surely he won’t be rewarded with a big change. He wasn’t rewarded with a huge change, but it was enough of a change that he could exploit the lack of boundaries, like I said, and now that’s what we have. Now that’s what I’m going to deal with. Be prepared for them to paint a picture of you that is literally unrecognizable. He lied about many, many things. He said all of these things about me not caring for the kids or the kids being dirty and all of this other nonsense. That’s very hard. It’s very hard when I feel like so many times I have literally been the bigger person. I have invited him to the kids’ events, made sure to save a seat for him and been very aware and doing the emotional labor to include him in those things. To have that used against me is horrible. It feels horrible. It’s a betrayal on its own. After this last court date, like I said, I was in shock. I was in some trauma because I know what boundaries, the lack of boundaries would do to my husband in this situation. It’s only going to get worse. That was very hard. If I had expected that a little bit more, I think it would’ve been maybe a little bit easier. You talked to me right afterwards and I was pretty distraught. Now I’m feeling okay about it. ## Divorcing A Narcissist: Documentation In Preparation For Future I feel like I’ve gotten some good coping skills and that documentation is going to be huge. So the other thing that I learned is that documentation is key. It is paramount. You have got to document everything. That can be a challenge sometimes. One thing that I’ve learned that has helped me immensely wherever I am is I use the BTR boundary log. Anne: The boundary log is a log that is available to women who have taken [The Living Free Workshop](https://www.btr.org/livingfree/ "The Living Free Workshop") that teaches all of these strategies about how to think about it, how to set boundaries, and how to communicate. The boundary isn’t just an independent book that you would buy, it’s for you specifically for women who have enrolled in The Living Free Workshop. June: Yes, that has been great. Anytime there is some kind of an issue, the kid’s not getting somewhere on time, an offhanded comment, him swearing at me, him forgetting to return one of the kids’ items and refusing to go get it. I just write that down and that is my log. The way that you document your evidence is very, very important. Keeping a timeline of those things in real time is huge. Another thing that I’ve learned is that I think that a lot of times the narcissistic ex is really in the mindset of winning. This is about winning for him. I don’t think that he really wants the kids asking for 50/50, and mind you, he hasn’t gotten it. He keeps asking, acting like he wants it. I think that this is about winning for him. It’s not that he actually wants to have the kids but that he wants the appearance of wanting the kids. ## Husband’s Public Persona Backfires On dating sites, it says that he has them 50/50. Sometimes I think that you can use that to your advantage. I am aware of a woman who allowed her ex to say that he had 50/50 when in reality it wasn’t, and he didn’t actually want it. He just wanted to be able to say that. June: However you can make that and use that to your benefit, I think is important. Anne: Before you move on, I want to stress that you might get really upset in court about things like, oh, they’re saying this thing and I don’t want that thing to happen. The reality is once that paper is signed and the divorce decree is done, what happens may be very different. You might think, oh, okay, I got everything that I wanted, or I didn’t get anything that I wanted, or whatever it is. In reality, it might not even function like that. Just note that what they really want is the appearance of things. If they’re saying things, but it’s really not affecting the way you and your kids live, oh, for heaven’s sake, let them say it. That’s a type of battle that’s not worth fighting. This is like win-win because th