Have you felt confused by misogynistic religious indoctrination like “God Hates Divorce”?
Teachings like these ignore accountability and ultimately discourage women from seeking safety.
Emily is back on the BTR.ORG podcast with Anne. Together, they discuss how they hold on to their own beliefs while seeking safety from abuse. Tune in to the BTR.ORG podcast and read the full transcript below for more.
Abusive Indoctrination Harms Women
Abusive indoctrination is a serious problem within faith communities of every paradigm. Teachings like:
- “God hates divorce”
- “Divorce ruins families”
- “Women are subservient to men”
- “Women should submit to their husbands”
Condition women to ignore abuse, and abusers are often not held accountable.
Focus On “Deliverance”
Victims can choose to focus on the concept of “deliverance” found in many religious texts and teachings.
I encourage women to pray for are two things. Pray for deliverance and pray for a life of peace. What is my next step? How can I establish peace in my home? What would you like me to do? And he will lead and guide you to whatever that is.
Anne Blythe, Founder of BTR.ORG
BTR.ORG Is Here For You
At BTR, we know how difficult it can be to separate deeply ingrained religious teachings while still hoping to hold on to dearly held faith traditions. The BTR.ORG Group Sessions are a safe place for you to process difficult emotions and share your experiences. Attend a session today.
Welcome to BTR.ORG. This is Anne.
I have Emily, a member of our community back on today’s episode. So Emily and I shared the same faith, and I wanna do, I don’t know, not necessarily a trigger warning, but an explanation of this episode. There’s some parts that we edited out, um, for privacy’s sake, but Emily and I were having a conversation and she was asking me how I keep my faith.
So I just went ahead and talked about my faith. If you are not interested in that, just you can turn it off when we get to that point or keep listening. Um, the purpose of this podcast is not to proselyte. We’re all just here sharing from our own experience. So the point of me talking to her is just sharing my own experience and my own views, and we respect that. Everyone has different views around here. As you’ve heard on the podcast, uh, women come from all different religions or different paradigms or no religion. Everyone is welcome here. If you did not listen to last week’s episode, go there. Listen to that first, and then join us here. We start off talking about where she is right now in her situation. So we’ll just jump right in. So where are you now in your situation? Do you feel like you’ve established some peace or do you feel like you’re still sort of being cycled through the abuse?
“It’s So Hard”
It’s still a cycle. I have established more peace. I have definitely been able to recognize my relationship for what it is I am. I am able to recognize patterns and behaviors that before I wouldn’t have recognized what they were, but it’s really hard. It’s so hard. I’ve, I’ve never been able to get to the point where I can make a concrete decision to stay or to go. And it’s almost like sometimes I almost wish I would find him in another affair so that I could have that reason of, okay, I really can leave. But right now it’s like this in between where I feel like exactly what you’re saying earlier, like he hasn’t, he’s aware of what he needs to do, but he hasn’t fully made that commitment. And so he still blames me. He still holds me accountable, but it’s so hard. You know, I have kids and I have twins that are 17 and then a 13 year old. It’s been now seven years.
Sometimes I think back of, wow, what if I would’ve been strong enough to just leave? Then how different would my kids’ lives be? I’ve been so intent on giving them married parents than a family. And then I think back and I’m like, wow, what have I, maybe I’ve made a really big mistake staying together and modeling this kind of behavior to my kids of what’s okay in a relationship that’s really hard. So it’s, it’s, I’m like in this limbo where I just never am fully committed to stay or to go. It’s, I don’t know.
Does God Want You To Be Abused?
It’s hard. It’s really hard. Um, many women have prayed to know, right, do I stay or do I go? And then a lot of women avoid praying about it <laugh>, because they don’t want an answer. Right? Right. Because either answer is terrible. Yep. Number one, if it’s stay, then you have to stay in an abusive place. Number two, is that really God telling you to stay? Because I’ve had so many women say, I prayed about it and God wants me to stay. And I’m thinking, I’m not here to doubt your spiritual impressions, you know? Right. But at the same time, like the abuse messes with women’s minds so much that sometimes they can’t even ferret out what they’re feeling. And really what they’re feeling is it feels bad to divorce. So they’re feeling like, I know when I think about divorce, it feels wrong. So that must not be right.
So I guess God’s telling me to stay married. And with that I wanna say, no, no, no, no, no. If the answer you’re getting is this terrible, awful feeling when you think about divorce, that does not mean God is telling you not to divorce. And the reason why that is, is because divorce is awful. It is going to feel bad no matter what. I would encourage women and have them consider that. If you get a terrible, awful feeling when you think about divorce, consider that that is not God telling you not to do it. That is just the reality. That divorce is awful. It is awful. And it’s hard. Now, after that, after you say, okay, no matter what, it’s gonna feel awful. No matter what’s gonna feel bad, then how do you sort out what God wants you to do? And I have no idea. <laugh>, I have no idea. <laugh>.
I don’t either.
“I Want a Peaceful, Happy Life; Please Guide Me & Direct Me Toward That”
You know, all of these things that are in your head now that have been in your head forever, that you don’t even realize, aren’t even you. They’re just shadows of the abuse from overtime. So, so it’s, it’s very, very hard to sort out what to do. But I do think that God will lead us and direct us and guide us as we make our way towards safety. And if we say, Hey, this is what I want. I want a peaceful, happy life, please guide me and direct me toward that. What do you want me to do? What’s my next step? I think he’ll guide us wherever he wants us to go. But just, just as a wholesale overview of it, that bad, bad feeling, you’re gonna feel that regardless, even if divorce is the best thing for you, because it just, divorce is terrible.
And also with guys like this, it gets way worse when you try to leave. So you try to leave and they’ll tell everyone how terrible you are. They’ll lie about you that like the, the divorce is gonna go awful. The custody is gonna be bad, the court’s gonna be an another way to abuse you. So it’s just like, if you decide to go that route, it’s very, very difficult. It’s doable, but it’s hard. So those are the, all of the things that abuse victims have against them. It’s not a quick fix. Cause even once the divorce is over, then you have post separation, post divorce abuse that happens with your kids.
I know. I feel like there’s no good way out of it. <laugh>.
Praying For Deliverance
So all of you listeners now that are like, well, I was thinking about divorce <laugh>, but now that you said that as a woman of faith, I believe that God has a path and a way to safety for you. I just don’t know what that looks like. Things I encourage women to pray for are two things. Pray for deliverance and pray to say, uh, I would like a, a life of peace. And I would like to be able to feel the fruits of my own righteousness. I would like to be able to cast out devils in my own home. What is my next step? How can I establish peace in my home? What would you like me to do? And, and he will lead and guide you to whatever that is. And it, I don’t know what it’s gonna look like. I don’t know what it’s gonna be, but those things to me and praying for deliverance seem a little bit less scary. Also, praying for miracles. I’ve seen so many miracles in so many women’s lives and in my own life he’s there for us. But it’s, it’s a hard, it’s hard and it’s scary.
Yeah. I like the idea of just kind of praying for the next step. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> just one step at a time.
Have you reconciled with your sister-in-law, your brother’s ex-wife?
No. They ended up getting divorced and I haven’t talked to her in years. I think about it and I’m kind of scared too.
Yeah. How come?
Just how the relationship was left. But I do think about it that I should just go and tell her I’m sorry for the things that I assumed and now have such a different view.
That might be an interesting first step. To tell her that you’re sorry and that you didn’t know what you didn’t know, and now you’re in the same boat and you don’t know what to do. <laugh>.
Yeah, that’s a good idea.
Was she ostracized? And did your brother lie about her?
Making Amends With Other Victims of Abuse
Oh yeah. Okay. She was always the, the bad guy so much. And he, he never took responsibility for his actions. And it was his, the whole reason he looked at pornography was her fault. And I’ve never heard him say otherwise. It was because she, because she didn’t wanna have sex with him or she wasn’t interested in it as much as he was. And so he had no other option. It was just is what he had to do. Yeah.
I’m so entitled to sex that I have to have it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, this is my wife’s job.
Right. And if she won’t do it, I mean, it’s been entirely her fault. They’ve been divorced 10 years now probably. And nothing’s changed.
Did he get remarried?
No, neither of them did.
Your brother’s an abuser.
Yeah. Oh, I’ve got him all around me now that I can see it for what it is. A lot of the men in my life are. Absolutely.
Now that you see that, have you noticed any men that are healthy that you’re like, wow, he’s healthy?
Well, sometimes I think, do they even exist? Like are there mentally stable men out there? Gosh, I’m trying to think if I even, I can’t even think of a person that I know that’s –
That question is also scary. And the reason why that’s scary is that you’re gonna need help if you choose to get out. If you choose to start making your way that that direction, you’re going to need help. And if you don’t have people in your life that are healthy that can see it for what it is, it’s scary to start doing that on your own.
“The More I’ve Learned About Abuse, The More I’ve Been Able to Recognize Healthy Men”
I know a lot of women that are like that, once they figure out what abuse is, they’re like, I don’t know a man who’s not abusive. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I’m happy to say that I have several men in my life now that are not abusive. And, um, they’re incredible and they are supportive and they’re, they’re awesome. And the more I’ve learned about abuse, the more I’ve been able to recognize healthy men as well. Now of course, I’m not married to them, so I don’t know for sure <laugh>, but in terms of my interaction and then also what their wife says about them, just the whole thing seems to lead that they’re healthy. I think there are healthy men out there, is what I’m trying to say. But I also think that they’re not common. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> in the state where you and I live in one out of every three women has experienced physical abuse. So then emotional and psychological abuse, you know, we’d have even more, and the statistics are the eight out of every 10 men in our state is using porn.
So then you’re looking at eight out of every 10 men as an abuser, essentially is willing to manipulate, is willing to lie, is willing to, you know, throw somebody under the bus to save their own reputation.
What Would Emily Tell Her Younger Self?
I wanna ask one question and then if you wanna ask me anything, I’ve never done this with anybody before, but we can kind of go there. So if you could go back and talk to your younger self, now that you’ve know what you know from listening to the podcast and being a member of our community, what would you tell her?
I wish that she could see her worth and, and know that within herself, that she’s a worthy person without someone else needing to tell her that she is. I wish that I could tell her to recognize red flags and see them for what they are. There are so many red flags looking back. And I just, even if I saw them, I didn’t want them to be. So I talked my way out of it, of making it okay. But I think deep down it’s like I’ve never felt like I deserved better.
That’s sad. In our faith tradition, we have this, um, what do we call that? It’s like this thing that we stand up in young women’s at church and it says this. So this is just really interesting. I wanna talk about this for a minute. So, and, and probably this happens in all faith traditions, but ours says, I am a beloved daughter of heavenly parents with a divine nature and eternal destiny as a disciple of Jesus Christ. I strive to become like him. I seek to act upon personal revelation and ministers to others in his holy name. I will stand as a witness of God at all times. I’m getting a little emotional here. Sorry. I will stand as a witness of God at all times and in all things and in all places. As I strive to qualify for exaltation, I cherish the gift of repentance and seek to improve each day with faith. I will strengthen my home and family making, keep sacred covenants and receive the ordinances and blessings of the holy temple.
Divine nature. I’m a beloved daughter. You know, this is more focused now on service than it was when we were growing up. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, ours was like, I am very valuable. Right? Yeah. This, this one actually doesn’t sound like that anymore, but it doesn’t. So, so we grew up with this like, I am a very valuable daughter of God kind of thing going on. Why do you think that didn’t sink in for us?
Understanding The General Lack of Self-Worth Among Women
Why? I think sometimes if you just recite something over and over, it becomes just a habit, like a habitual act instead of really pondering what you’re saying. And you can just get up and everyone says it, and then you sit down, but you don’t really spend the time to think about what you’re saying.
I also think it’s how we were treated.
Oh yeah, absolutely.
So if they say you’re so valuable, but then you’re not actually treated as you’re valuable. Like, they’re not listening to your opinion, they’re not believing you. Um, they’ll pay for your brother to go to college, but they won’t pay for you to go to college or, you know, other, your brother gets to choose a career of any of these 5,000 different careers and you need to pick a teacher because then you would have the summers off for your kids. And you need to be able to cook and sew and clean and do laundry. And your, your duties are relegated to these seven things. Childcare, cleaning, cooking, you know, and he, what does he wanna do? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, he gets to be an engineer, an astronaut. Like what are his dreams and hopes? And yours should be laundry. So I don’t know what mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know mm-hmm. <affirmative> like nobody ever says like, what do you genuinely want to do with your life?
“Were You Actually Treated Like You Were Valuable?”
Like, what are you interested in? Who are you as a person? What talents has God given you apart from the, he’s given you the ability to be a mother, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so it’s like, were you actually treated like you were valuable? And so then if in our hearts and minds we’re thinking, okay, we’re really valued, but we’re only valued if we look like this or if we do this thing, and if we do it really well, and you know what, I’m not super great at cooking brownies, so maybe I’m not as valuable as the congregation brownie baker, you know, or whatever. I just wonder if that’s part of it. As well as the way that we internalize the culture around us was like, oh, this is how you get valued as a woman. If you wanna, you’ve gotta be cute and you’ve gotta be in shape and you have to play the harp.
It’s so true. That’s really interesting you bring that up because the week ago at church, we were having a lesson about things of value and they were putting it on to, you know, the temple and how we treat different things differently on how much we value them. And we came home from church and I said to my husband, I said, I don’t feel valued. I don’t feel like you have valued me as a wife, as a human. And that’s where, I mean, for me, it was such a big epiphany. It was so big to just think I’ve spent these last 20 years of my life with someone that I feel doesn’t value me.
Doesn’t cherish us.
Right? Yeah. How differently would my life turn out if I was with someone that that really valued me, truly.
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, and I think that’s why we have to learn to value ourselves because nobody’s doing it for us.
“They’re Not Acknowledging This Super Solid Bedrock Foundation of Misogyny”
And when we do and we’re like, no, I’m gonna do this thing, everybody around us is like, what? No, no, no, <laugh> then you’re not valuing your husband or your, your kids or, you know, whatever else. And it’s, yeah. I, I think the heart of this is also just flat out misogyny, which is hard for us to admit it. And I, I, I think that’s the problem with a lot of the pornography addiction recovery situation, is that they’re not acknowledging this super solid bedrock foundation of misogyny.
That is so firm and so strong and so deep that it’s going through the, the clergy and the therapists and the community. And it’s making it very difficult for women to value themselves. And, and then when you start doing it, then you’re the crazy apostate. Oh yeah, whatever lady mm-hmm. <affirmative>. I enjoy that role though now in my congregation. It’s like the witch lady almost <laugh>. Not really, but you know what I mean? Like, ooh, don’t let your kids get too close to her. I don’t do this often, but are there any like thoughts you have or any questions that you have?
I actually with you, how have you been able to keep your faith and your spirituality? That is something I’ve struggled with so much through this, because I do feel like my religion has really kind of spiritually manipulated me into a kind of feeling like I’m not as much value of just, you know, I need to forgive, move on. And I don’t know, it’s, it’s real, I’ve really struggled with my spirituality through this. Do you, is there things that have helped you?
How Has Anne Maintained Her Religious Beliefs?
In our particular faith, we study from the Bible and we also study from the Book of Mormon. And I love both the Bible and the Book of Mormon. So the Bible is a testament of Jesus Christ, both before his birth and after his birth in Jerusalem and in the European continent. Um, and the Book of Mormon is a history of the prophets who prophesy of Christ before his birth and, and also after in the American continent, people in, you know, Guatemala or whatever in the Central America. And so I love studying from both of these books about my savior and having a tangible book that I can study from and pray about and, and consider what God is telling me has really, really helped me. And I just cannot throw either of those books out the window. You know, sometimes I think like, ugh, what am I doing this for?
All these men don’t get it. But like, as I study, I really feel God’s love for me. And the other thing that’s interesting is both of those books are, I think, misogynistic at their core due to the historical situation, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we don’t have a lot of women in those books. They’re not writing them. They’re not interpreting them from the perspective of women. And so that’s another thing that I do, is I actually, in my own journal, I pray and ask heavenly father what he wants to tell me, and then I write down the impressions that I receive. And I consider that my own personal scriptures, my, my journal that I can keep. And I think if more of us do that, you know, in a hundred years, then maybe we’ll have some scriptures written by women that we do not have now. Because I don’t know, maybe women couldn’t write or, you know, I don’t know why that happened. But women have been historically property right? Throughout time. So even though the, it’s still on that solid, seemingly immovable bedrock of misogyny, I do think the Lord’s words come through and I just can’t throw it out the window. The other thing that I love about the scriptures is it says so clearly that God does not like wickedness.
Anne’s Belief in Deliverance
Hmm. And it, there’s over and over and over, both the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Book of Mormon’s stories over and over of deliverance. So the gospel is a gospel of deliverance, right? The ultimate deliverance would be salvation returning to live with God in the afterlife. But I also believe that he has a deliverance for us here in this life. That he wants us to be delivered from evil and that we should make our way out somehow. You know, the Israelites back in the day, they were enslaved by evil by Pharaoh and they prayed and they watched and they hoped for the time that they could be delivered. And then when Moses made that possible, they started moving, right? They started making their way. At that point, they could have just sat there <laugh> and been like, oh, it’s too hard to get all of her stuff together.
It’s too hard to walk out. Pharaoh’s gonna follow us anyway. You know, but they didn’t, they got up, they packed up all their stuff, they started making their way out and Pharaoh did follow them. And then the, the red seat parted and they walked through. I mean, can you imagine the faith that that took to walk through these two pillars of water thinking it could fall on you at any second, right? I don’t know if I would’ve been like, this seems like a bad idea. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, walking through here. But they did it. And I think God is calling women to do that. Now. I genuinely feel like in these last days that God is calling women to separate themselves from evil, to have faith, to pray, to be delivered, to hope, to be delivered and start making our way out. And when we see that moment, whenever that is, to pack up our stuff, you know, metaphorically speaking and make our way.
Separating Ourselves From Abuse
And then when he parts that red sea, we have to, we have to walk through that. And for me, that was when my ex got arrested. For some women, they have some kind of epiphany. You know, I’m not saying all of this leads to divorce. I’m, I’m not pro divorce per se, but I am pro deliverance from evil and I am pro deliverance from abuse. So when you look at that and you think God seems to be calling all of us to consider deliverance, to separate ourselves from evil, we also know in the last days that there’ll be a big separation, right? A separation of good and evil. The wheat and the tears, that sort of thing. On a few episodes back, I ask people to pray that the tears are separated, that the wicked are separated from the righteous. And I think that that’s happening now.
And the easiest place to do that is in our own homes, to separate ourselves and make sure our home is a place of peace. And it’s confusing cuz at church when they talk about, you know, separate yourself from evil or whatever, they never talk about it in terms of your own home. They’re always talking about it as like the evil in the world, right? So like these evil people out there and I’m thinking, I’m not really super worried about the quote unquote evil people out in the world. I’m already separated from them. So I don’t know really what you’re talking about. You know, I’m not like hanging out with them. The people that are in my circle are healthy, happy, honest people. So we’re trying to separate ourselves from evil. We really just need to look in our own six foot radius of us.
Yeah, that’s big.
Anne Believes Her Higher Power Has a Plan For Our Deliverance
And I think if we do that, we make our way toward that. We’re bringing to pass the second coming the binding of Satan that’s supposed to happen in the last days. So all of those things really like come together for me and help me feel really, um, at peace with my faith. There are questions that I have, there are serious concerns that I have, but I didn’t have those tangible records of our savior in the form of the Book of Mormon in the Bible that I could study from. But because I have those, I think the Lord has a plan for us. I don’t know what it is exactly, I’m just gonna do my part. And I have questions maybe about how things are going or decisions certain people are making or how people are interpreting these things. But God has also given me the ability to interpret scripture for myself.
And luckily in our faith, and I don’t know if you feel this way, I feel like the leaders at the very, very top of the church, like the prophet and the apostles, I genuinely feel like they understand this. I just don’t know if they know how to, like how do you get 80% of the men in the world, let alone your church to repent if they don’t want to. So I just think, I don’t know the answer to so many of these things. Of course I don’t, why would I? But I think that’s what’s helped me keep my faith. Cause I just can’t imagine that God doesn’t have a plan for our deliverance if he’s had a plan for oppressed people’s deliverance since the very beginning of time.
“We’re Still Sisters”
<affirmative>. Yeah. That’s something to think about. I like that a lot. That’s good, good stuff. That’s helpful.
I have a lot of friends who have left, you know, their faith and I don’t blame them. There’s no judgment for me because I think, I don’t know why I still believe in you don’t, but like, we’re still sisters. Did your sister-in-law leave the church?
Yes, she did. Yeah.
So I think that would be another thing as you attempt to reconcile with her, is to have a really soft place in your heart for that and be like, it makes sense that you would do that a after all the abuse that you suffered from my brother, from my family, from other church members. Like I totally get it. I’m not there, but I understand, I can see why you would do that, because that’s gonna be a further bridge to, um, reconciliation rather than like, well I’m staying in the church because I’m more righteous and I have more faith than you after all the misogyny I’ve experienced and all the terrible things, but somehow I’m a better person than you because I can put up with it. Or something like the women who have said, Hey, I am done. I am not, not gonna listen to you anymore.
“Husbands Don’t Like Us Finding [BTR.ORG] Because We Find The Truth”
The immediate people who are saying like, you shouldn’t get divorced and you’re a bad person and stuff like that. Like, good for you for standing up for yourself, good for you for saying, I don’t, I don’t have to take this anymore. I don’t have to take this abuse. I’m not doing this anymore. So in terms of like how I feel about it, I think every woman can make her own way to safety in whatever way that looks like for her. And sometimes frankly, I’m a little bit confused about why I still believe like I do. I’ve suffered tons of oppression from men for, for my views, especially now that the podcast is so big and that I seem very threatening to a lot of therapists or other people and my views seem very threatening. And some people see me as some kind of like ultra crazy podcaster that their wife started listening to and after she started listening to this like wackadoodle podcaster, um, our family was ruined.
Well, what’s interesting about that is yes, of course the husbands don’t like us finding you because we find the truth.
<affirmative>, we understand the abuse for what it is and when we come and confront them and say, ah, I listened to this podcast and she said this, so yeah, my husband is not a fan of the podcast cause it totally, I know it exposes him for what he is and he doesn’t like that one bit.
“Our Faith Tradition Says We Do Not Tolerate Abuse”
So I become this crazy like extremist who’s podcasting from my basement who, you know, believes in aliens. I, I’m not, I don’t believe in a, but I, I mean I like people have that view of it, right? Um, no actually, like this is pretty mainstream, like basic abuse stuff. If you talk to any abuse expert, they’ll be like, yeah, yeah, of course this is not extreme. It’s not out there. There’s nothing about it that is counterculture. I mean, our faith tradition says we do not tolerate abuse. And so I think it’s really interesting that it’s just so, so threatening to an abuser for a victim to find out the truth about what’s going on.
Yeah. Blows this cover. It’s, they can’t get away with what they used to get away with. And it’s, I think it’s really confusing to them because behavior that’s worked in the past doesn’t work anymore when we can recognize it and see what’s being done and how we’re being manipulated. It has really changed my relationship. It really has since I’ve started listening to the podcast and just being able to recognize it and being able to feel more self-worth because of all the gaslighting I have felt like I am just the crazy one, that there’s no validity to my thoughts and emotions. Being able to recognize that my thoughts and emotions and feelings are valid. It gives me a lot more strength to be able to stand up and, and recognize that, yeah, I do have worth and my thoughts. They’re not crazy. They’re actually less crazy. They’re, the truth is what they are. They’re true.
BTR.ORG Is Here For You
Well, and from a spiritual perspective, that is God telling you that you are of worth and listen to that part. Listen to how much he loves you and he cares about you. And you don’t have to put up with literal chaos and pain coming from someone who enjoys wickedness. We were talking about submission before, like on a, on a previous episode, and essentially if you are listening to your abuser and you’re submitting yourself to him, and Okay, I’ll have more sex, or Okay, I’ll lose weight or, okay, I won’t ask you questions and I’ll, I don’t know, whatever they want, that’s unrighteous. You’re submitting yourself to evil, which God never asked us to do ever. Yeah. In fact, he wants us to stand for truth and righteousness, like in that young women theme, right? In all times and in all places, no matter if our husband likes it or not, or no matter if our clergy likes it or not, or our therapist likes it or not. Um, no matter if people think we’re the crazy witch lady who hates men <laugh> or whatever mm-hmm. <affirmative> <laugh>. The cool thing is the more of us there are, the stronger we become and the less weird it is. And so we just need to keep walking forward. And when one of us gets to safety, it helps all of us. Emily, thank you so much for spending this time with me today. I really appreciate your time.
It’s been really healing just to be able to talk about it and, and express myself. I, I really appreciate it. It’s been really good, really good for me.
If this podcast is helpful to you, please support it. And until next week, stay safe out there.